From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 25 08:41:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA05783 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 08:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA05774 Sun, 25 Feb 1996 08:41:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199602251641.IAA05774@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: buying IP addresses To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 08:41:54 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at Feb 25, 96 00:37:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk wouldn't leasing address space for one0-year periods do a better job of 'establishing fair market price', keeping the market on address space efficient and providing a revenue stream to the internic? anyone every written a draft rfc? existing address holders would be grandfathered in for some time period the lease holder would have first right of refusal so long as they paid the 'market price' each year. scares me that this came from at&t, they have the resources to purchase a considerable amount of address space. who owns the internet? today or tomorrow? dont own the net just own the addresses. small isp's will be in trouble? Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > Since I'm reading the draft, I'd like to quote and comment on a few things. > > (from section on, second paragraph) > > Assignees do not pay for the numbers they receive. The InterNIC > itself is subsidized by the NSF. This panel is supposed to propose > methods of making the InterNIC self-supporting. I propose to > remove one of the functions of the InterNIC registration services > to a free market, leaving a much restricted function that will be > less costly to run. > > --- > > Now wait a minute. The entire goal of this draft (or so it seems at > this point) is to make the "NSF subsidized InterNIC" self-supporting. > I thought their NSF money ran out and they started charging for > domain registration. What happened to all that cash they were > supposed to rake in? :) > > ... > > Ok, having read the draft, I think I need to read it again. :) > > A very interesting idea, this money as incentive for optomizing address > space. I think they have it all wrong though. They need to charge > MORE for routing small address space and LESS for large. > > I think I'm going to mail a request to the InterNIC for an /18 now. > > :) > > Have a good one. > > | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | > | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | > | InterSurf Online | Have you rewired your dmarc today? YOU WILL! | > > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 27 13:36:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06749 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06740 for freebsd-chat; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:36:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199602272136.NAA06740@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Protocol Action: Post Office Protocol - Version 3 to Standard (fwd) To: freebsd-chat Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:36:25 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk The IESG wrote: >From ietf-announce-request@IETF.CNRI.Reston.VA.US Tue Feb 27 13:32:03 1996 To: IETF-Announce:; Cc: RFC Editor Cc: Internet Architecture Board Sender: ietf-announce-request@IETF.CNRI.Reston.VA.US From: The IESG Subject: Protocol Action: Post Office Protocol - Version 3 to Standard Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 15:07:06 -0500 X-Orig-Sender: scoya@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Message-ID: <9602271507.aa29813@IETF.CNRI.Reston.VA.US> The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft Post Office Protocol - Version 3 as a Standard. This document is a revision of RFC1725, currently a Draft Standard Protocol. The IESG contact person is John Klensin. Technical Summary POP3 is the Internet's most widely used protocol for remote access to a mail. It specifies a dialogue between a client and a "post office" maildrop server to retrieve mail messages that have been delivered to that maildrop (in the Internet context, that delivery usually occurs via SMTP). Working Group Summary The last few versions of the POP3 specification have been developed by ad hoc efforts involving people who have made significant contributions to the protocol or who have made significant and widely-deployed implementations of it. The current document reflects considerable operational experience; the protocol itself is unchanged from the previous versions. There was no unresolved dissent among the developers and private reviewers, and no comments were received during Last Call other than those advocating immediate standardization of the protocol. Protocol Quality There are at least two POP3 server implementations that are free and may be considered to be reference implementations, multiple implementations on different UNIX hardware platforms (and flavors of UNIX), at least one OpenVMS implementation, and at least one known implementations on Windows NT. POP3 client implementations are available, and in heavy use, on Macintosh, UNIX, MS-DOS, and Windows (3.1, 95, and NT) environments. Almost every consumer-oriented "buy this package and get yourself on the Internet" kit that actually runs over a TCP/IP stack contains a POP3 client. All of these implementations of clients appear to interoperate with all implementations of servers. The only exceptions arise when particular clients insist on server support for certain optional features of the protocol in order to communicate with them, or when a server is configured to disable specific features (these cases are discussed in the specification). In any event, those exceptions are not problematic as they would be in a more typical "arbitrary client communicates with an arbitrary server" protocol: since the user must make prior arrangements to utilize a particular maildrop on a particular system, the use of POP3 has most of the usual properties of a "consenting adult" arrangement in which the characteristics of particular pairs of clients and servers can be known and negotiated in advance of protocol use. Nonetheless, the success rate of using arbitrary clients with arbitrary servers and without such prior negotiation has been extremely high. POP3 is probably the most widely deployed and used Internet applications protocol that is not yet a full Internet Standard. This specification was reviewed for the IESG by John Klensin. -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 01:45:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA26496 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 01:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26485 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 01:45:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA07234 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 01:46:22 -0800 From: "David E. O'Brien" Message-Id: <199602280946.BAA07234@relay.nuxi.com> Subject: Re: Secondary DNS: can anyone help? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 01:46:21 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > > In investigating my recent mail troubles, I've found that the system > > that's been providing secondary DNS is down and will be for the > > forseeable future. > > > Is anyone out there (with a well-connected host) willing to provide > > secondary DNS? I just have an MX for the domain (single host, two > > users) and pointers to low-hit-rate web and ftp servers. Actually I have a simular need. Is anyone in FreeBSD-land willing to provide secondary DNS service to a small domain used mostly for email? I have a typical university network connection, and can reciprocate. -- David (obrien@nuxi.com) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 09:37:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA25488 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.COSC.GOV (root@apollo.COSC.GOV [198.94.103.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25478 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from vince@localhost) by apollo.COSC.GOV (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16323; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:36:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:36:06 -0800 (PST) From: -Vince- To: "David E. O'Brien" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Secondary DNS: can anyone help? In-Reply-To: <199602280946.BAA07234@relay.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, David E. O'Brien wrote: > > > > > In investigating my recent mail troubles, I've found that the system > > > that's been providing secondary DNS is down and will be for the > > > forseeable future. > > > > > Is anyone out there (with a well-connected host) willing to provide > > > secondary DNS? I just have an MX for the domain (single host, two > > > users) and pointers to low-hit-rate web and ftp servers. > > Actually I have a simular need. Is anyone in FreeBSD-land willing to > provide secondary DNS service to a small domain used mostly for email? > > I have a typical university network connection, and can reciprocate. I can do it but is anyone willing to provide MX backup? Thanks... Cheers, -Vince- vince@COSC.GOV - GUS Mailing Lists Admin - http://www.COSC.GOV/~vince UC Berkeley AstroPhysics - Electrical Engineering (Honorary B.S.) Chabot Observatory & Science Center - Board of Advisors Running FreeBSD - Real UN*X for Free! Linda Wong/Vivian Chow/Hacken Lee/Danny Chan/Priscilla Chan Fan Club Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 14:49:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA23355 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA23350 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id QAA12930; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:49:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:49:48 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: -Vince- cc: "David E. O'Brien" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Secondary DNS: can anyone help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, -Vince- wrote: > I can do it but is anyone willing to provide MX backup? Thanks... Sure. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | Have you rewired your dmarc today? YOU WILL! | From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 15:46:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA27328 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.COSC.GOV (root@apollo.COSC.GOV [198.94.103.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27323 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from vince@localhost) by apollo.COSC.GOV (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA18658; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:45:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:45:03 -0800 (PST) From: -Vince- To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: "David E. O'Brien" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Secondary DNS: can anyone help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, -Vince- wrote: > > I can do it but is anyone willing to provide MX backup? Thanks... > > Sure. So you can provide the MX backup? Cheers, -Vince- vince@COSC.GOV - GUS Mailing Lists Admin - http://www.COSC.GOV/~vince UC Berkeley AstroPhysics - Electrical Engineering (Honorary B.S.) Chabot Observatory & Science Center - Board of Advisors Running FreeBSD - Real UN*X for Free! Linda Wong/Vivian Chow/Hacken Lee/Danny Chan/Priscilla Chan Fan Club Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 16:12:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA28916 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28911 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id SAA15838; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:12:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:12:27 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: -Vince- cc: "David E. O'Brien" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Secondary DNS: can anyone help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, -Vince- wrote: > So you can provide the MX backup? Shouldn't be a problem. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | Have you rewired your dmarc today? YOU WILL! | From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 16:51:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA01771 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01763 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.4/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id QAA21910 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:51:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:51:43 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk This is from /usr/src/linux/Documentation/CodingStyle, it's Linus' own personal coding style. Am I the only one here who finds this, ultimate shit? Heh, I love how he says functions can't me more than 2 pages long, and if you are indenting beyond 3 indentions, your function is broke, and you should recode it. Whatever Linus. == Chris Layne ============================================================== == coredump@nervosa.com ================= http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == -- CUT HERE ----------------------------------------------------------------- Linux kernel coding style This is a short document describing the preferred coding style for the linux kernel. Coding style is very personal, and I won't _force_ my views on anybody, but this is what goes for anything that I have to be able to maintain, and I'd prefer it for most other things too. Please at least consider the points made here. First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards, and NOT read it. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture. Anyway, here goes: Chapter 1: Indentation Tabs are 8 characters, and thus indentations are also 8 characters. There are heretic movements that try to make indentations 4 (or even 2!) characters deep, and that is akin to trying to define the value of PI to be 3. Rationale: The whole idea behind indentation is to clearly define where a block of control starts and ends. Especially when you've been looking at your screen for 20 straight hours, you'll find it a lot easier to see how the indentation works if you have large indentations. Now, some people will claim that having 8-character indentations makes the code move too far to the right, and makes it hard to read on a 80-character terminal screen. The answer to that is that if you need more than 3 levels of indentation, you're screwed anyway, and should fix your program. In short, 8-char indents make things easier to read, and have the added benefit of warning you when you're nesting your functions too deep. Heed that warning. Chapter 2: Placing Braces The other issue that always comes up in C styling is the placement of braces. Unlike the indent size, there are few technical reasons to choose one placement strategy over the other, but the preferred way, as shown to us by the prophets Kernighan and Ritchie, is to put the opening brace last on the line, and put the closing brace first, thusly: if (x is true) { we do y } However, there is one special case, namely functions: they have the opening brace at the beginning of the next line, thus: int function(int x) { body of function } Heretic people all over the world have claimed that this inconsistency is ... well ... inconsistent, but all right-thinking people know that (a) K&R are _right_ and (b) K&R are right. Besides, functions are special anyway (you can't nest them in C). Note that the closing brace is empty on a line of its own, _except_ in the cases where it is followed by a continuation of the same statement, ie a "while" in a do-statement or an "else" in an if-statement, like this: do { body of do-loop } while (condition); and if (x == y) { .. } else if (x > y) { ... } else { .... } Rationale: K&R. Also, note that this brace-placement also minimizes the number of empty (or almost empty) lines, without any loss of readability. Thus, as the supply of new-lines on your screen is not a renewable resource (think 25-line terminal screens here), you have more empty lines to put comments on. Chapter 3: Naming C is a Spartan language, and so should your naming be. Unlike Modula-2 and Pascal programmers, C programmers do not use cute names like ThisVariableIsATemporaryCounter. A C programmer would call that variable "tmp", which is much easier to write, and not the least more difficult to understand. HOWEVER, while mixed-case names are frowned upon, descriptive names for global variables are a must. To call a global function "foo" is a shooting offense. GLOBAL variables (to be used only if you _really_ need them) need to have descriptive names, as do global functions. If you have a function that counts the number of active users, you should call that "count_active_users()" or similar, you should _not_ call it "cntusr()". Encoding the type of a function into the name (so-called Hungarian notation) is brain damaged - the compiler knows the types anyway and can check those, and it only confuses the programmer. No wonder MicroSoft makes buggy programs. LOCAL variable names should be short, and to the point. If you have some random integer loop counter, it should probably be called "i". Calling it "loop_counter" is non-productive, if there is no chance of it being mis-understood. Similarly, "tmp" can be just about any type of variable that is used to hold a temporary value. If you are afraid to mix up your local variable names, you have another problem, which is called the function-growth-hormone-imbalance syndrome. See next chapter. Chapter 4: Functions Functions should be short and sweet, and do just one thing. They should fit on one or two screenfuls of text (the ISO/ANSI screen size is 80x24, as we all know), and do one thing and do that well. The maximum length of a function is inversely proportional to the complexity and indentation level of that function. So, if you have a conceptually simple function that is just one long (but simple) case-statement, where you have to do lots of small things for a lot of different cases, it's ok to have a longer function. However, if you have a complex function, and you suspect that a less-than-gifted first-year high-school student might not even understand what the function is all about, you should adhere to the maximum limits all the more closely. Use helper functions with descriptive names (you can ask the compiler to in-line them if you think it's performance-critical, and it will probably do a better job of it that you would have done). Another measure of the function is the number of local variables. They shouldn't exceed 5-10, or you're doing something wrong. Re-think the function, and split it into smaller pieces. A human brain can generally easily keep track of about 7 different things, anything more and it gets confused. You know you're brilliant, but maybe you'd like to understand what you did 2 weeks from now. Chapter 5: Commenting Comments are good, but there is also a danger of over-commenting. NEVER try to explain HOW your code works in a comment: it's much better to write the code so that the _working_ is obvious, and it's a waste of time to explain badly written code. Generally, you want your comments to tell WHAT your code does, not HOW. Also, try to avoid putting comments inside a function body: if the function is so complex that you need to separately comment parts of it, you should probably go back to chapter 4 for a while. You can make small comments to note or warn about something particularly clever (or ugly), but try to avoid excess. Instead, put the comments at the head of the function, telling people what it does, and possibly WHY it does it. Chapter 6: You've made a mess of it That's ok, we all do. You've probably been told by your long-time unix user helper that "GNU emacs" automatically formats the C sources for you, and you've noticed that yes, it does do that, but the defaults it uses are less than desirable (in fact, they are worse than random typing - a infinite number of monkeys typing into GNU emacs would never make a good program). So, you can either get rid of GNU emacs, or change it to use saner values. To do the latter, you can stick the following in your .emacs file: (defun linux-c-mode () "C mode with adjusted defaults for use with the Linux kernel." (interactive) (c-mode) (setq c-indent-level 8) (setq c-brace-imaginary-offset 0) (setq c-brace-offset -8) (setq c-argdecl-indent 8) (setq c-label-offset -8) (setq c-continued-statement-offset 8) (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) (setq tab-width 8)) This will define the M-x linux-c-mode command. When hacking on a module, if you put the string -*- linux-c -*- somewhere on the first two lines, this mode will be automatically invoked. Also, you may want to add (setq auto-mode-alist (cons '("/usr/src/linux.*/.*\\.[ch]$" . linux-c-mode) auto-mode-alist)) to your .emacs file if you want to have linux-c-mode switched on automagically when you edit source files under /usr/src/linux. But even if you fail in getting emacs to do sane formatting, not everything is lost: use "indent". Now, again, GNU indent has the same brain dead settings that GNU emacs has, which is why you need to give it a few command line options. However, that's not too bad, because even the makers of GNU indent recognize the authority of K&R (the GNU people aren't evil, they are just severely misguided in this matter), so you just give indent the options "-kr -i8" (stands for "K&R, 8 character indents"). "indent" has a lot of options, and especially when it comes to comment re-formatting you may want to take a look at the manual page. But remember: "indent" is not a fix for bad programming. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 17:10:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA03269 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.COSC.GOV (root@apollo.COSC.GOV [198.94.103.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA03242 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from vince@localhost) by apollo.COSC.GOV (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA19233; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:08:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:08:42 -0800 (PST) From: -Vince- To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: "David E. O'Brien" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Secondary DNS: can anyone help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, -Vince- wrote: > > So you can provide the MX backup? > > Shouldn't be a problem. Cool, can you do it for COSC.GOV and COSC.ORG which are the same machine actually. Thanks... Cheers, -Vince- vince@COSC.GOV - GUS Mailing Lists Admin - http://www.COSC.GOV/~vince UC Berkeley AstroPhysics - Electrical Engineering (Honorary B.S.) Chabot Observatory & Science Center - Board of Advisors Running FreeBSD - Real UN*X for Free! Linda Wong/Vivian Chow/Hacken Lee/Danny Chan/Priscilla Chan Fan Club Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 18:34:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA10915 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA10910 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA07399; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:32:42 -0800 (PST) To: invalid opcode cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:51:43 PST." Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:32:42 -0800 Message-ID: <7397.825561162@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > This is from /usr/src/linux/Documentation/CodingStyle, it's Linus' own > personal coding style. Am I the only one here who finds this, ultimate I suppose.. I don't know, there are a few things he says which I agree with and a few I don't. I like 4 column tabs and think that 8 is just a waste of screen real-estate. I have no problem seeing the indentation levels with 4 column offsets and can only conclude that Linus needs glasses on that one. As to multiple levels of indentation, I personally like to set my limit at 4 before I start looking at the loop or if chain suspiciously, but that's just me. If somebody else likes 6 or 8, WTF.. I do agree with Linus that the K&R formatting standards are the One True Way, however, and still use them to this day. I figure it's the book that taught most/all of us to program in C, and if we emulate its style then we can at least read eachother's code without barfing up long segments of intestine. Well, that's in theory, anyway. If we're yawning in technicolor, it at least won't be from the indentation. I've seen code that I had to run through indent just to be able to *parse* it correctly, and that's no fun. The bit about functions spanning no more than 2 screens isn't even really Linus's doctrine, either - you'll find that point of view expoused in a number of C++ books when talking about determining the proper balance of abstraction. For what it's worth, I too find that the demands imposed by keeping most functions below 2 pages has a good effect on my overall program design. Where I might ordinarily just write out a procedure linearly to save time, I'm forced to break the problem at some reasonable point and create another level of logical abstraction. Conversely, when my functions start getting only 3 and 4 lines long as a general rule, I know I've gone out of control and need to stop with the friggin' abstraction already! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 28 19:35:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA16667 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from intele.net (cybernote.intele.net [206.29.205.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA16653 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (wes@localhost) by intele.net (8.7.4/8.6.5) id UAA24697; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:34:56 -0700 (MST) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199602290334.UAA24697@intele.net> Subject: Coding (non-)style To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:34:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: wes@intele.net (Wes Peters) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Chris Layne (coredump@nervosa.com) said: % This is from /usr/src/linux/Documentation/CodingStyle, it's Linus' own % personal coding style. Am I the only one here who finds this, ultimate % shit? Heh, I love how he says functions can't me more than 2 pages long, % and if you are indenting beyond 3 indentions, your function is broke, and % you should recode it. Whatever Linus. You're certainly not the only one. At my 'day job', our coding standards consist of: Use 4-character indents Tabs are considered to be 4 characters wide. Open brace should be on the following line, aligned with the code above it. The closing brace should line up with the opening brace. Everything in between should be indented one more tab. That's it. This works for a team of 14 programmers, maintaining and upgrading 400,000 lines of C and C++ code continually. It helps that we have a pretty talented group. ;^) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyhow, to nit-pick Linus' guide: > First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards, > and NOT read it. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture. This is stupid; FSF has produced a lot of good software, they must be doing *something* right. Studying their style, if only for points you disagree with, is a good exercise for would-be style writers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tabs are 8 characters, and thus indentations are also 8 characters. I thought tabs were .5 inches? Which makes them 4 characters at 8 cpi, or 5 characters at 10 cpi, etc. > There are heretic movements that try to make indentations 4 (or even 2!) > characters deep, and that is akin to trying to define the value of PI to > be 3. No, it's like trying to define it at 3.14 if you need two decimal places of precision, instead of pendantically demanding that it is 3.1415926, which is only slightly more accurate, and may be insignificant. > Rationale: The whole idea behind indentation is to clearly define where > a block of control starts and ends. Especially when you've been looking > at your screen for 20 straight hours, you'll find it a lot easier to see > how the indentation works if you have large indentations. You will? I certainly don't. 3 or 4 characters is plenty for me. Get a better terminal. > Now, some people will claim that having 8-character indentations makes > the code move too far to the right, and makes it hard to read on a > 80-character terminal screen. The answer to that is that if you need > more than 3 levels of indentation, you're screwed anyway, and should fix > your program. Right. Now I can see why your kernel is slow; you have too many function calls in it. This *really* bites on old, slower hardware with a lot of overhead for function calls, like a 386. Or the 68K cpus I use at work. /* Do something big in little pieces 'cause Linus says I have to. */ tons of global data here, since we can't just keep it all in the function... void big_func() { little_func_1(); little_func_2(); little_func_3(); little_func_4(); } What crap. > In short, 8-char indents make things easier to read, and have the added > benefit of warning you when you're nesting your functions too deep. > Heed that warning. > Placing Braces > > The other issue that always comes up in C styling is the placement of > braces. Unlike the indent size, there are few technical reasons to > choose one placement strategy over the other, but the preferred way, as > shown to us by the prophets Kernighan and Ritchie, is to put the opening > brace last on the line, and put the closing brace first, thusly: > > if (x is true) { > we do y > } I suppose Linus hasn't heard that DMR blames this coding style on the editors at Addison-Wesley, and doesn't code this way himself. It was chosen to save space on the printed page, and the 5-char indents for the same reason. This brings up another interesting point: through most of this document, Linus' reason for doing something is "because K&R did it that way," unless he disagrees! The 8-character tabbing is a case in point. > However, there is one special case, namely functions: they have the > opening brace at the beginning of the next line, thus: Aha! A "special case"! Sounds non-orthogonal to me! > Heretic people all over the world have claimed that this inconsistency > is ... well ... inconsistent, but all right-thinking people know that > (a) K&R are _right_ and (b) K&R are right. Besides, functions are > special anyway (you can't nest them in C). Maybe your compiler can't. ;^) > Rationale: K&R. Irrationale: pedantic, except when he chooses to be inconsistent. > Also, note that this brace-placement also minimizes the number of empty > (or almost empty) lines, without any loss of readability. Says you. I prefer white space to separate each functional grouping of code, and find that it makes the code much more readable. Writers of english do this, too; they call the functional blocks "paragraphs" or "stanzas." ;^) > Thus, as the > supply of new-lines on your screen is not a renewable resource (think > 25-line terminal screens here), you have more empty lines to put > comments on. The supply of new-lines on *my* screen is entirely adequate at 50. If I feel the need to have 60, I'll go out and buy a 19" monitor to replace my 17". If you're stupid enough to program on a terminal, you need to find a better job. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > C is a Spartan language, and so should your naming be. Unlike Modula-2 > and Pascal programmers, C programmers do not use cute names like > ThisVariableIsATemporaryCounter. A C programmer would call that > variable "tmp", which is much easier to write, and not the least more > difficult to understand. This C programmer prefers to name variables functionally. If the variable is a loop counter, and you want to call it loopCounter, go right ahead. index might be a better name, but it might also be overloaded in the problem-space, leading to confusion. Best bet is to avoid confusion at all costs. > HOWEVER, while mixed-case names are frowned upon, descriptive names for > global variables are a must. To call a global function "foo" is a > shooting offense. Unless, of course, the function stands for "file on output," right? mixedCaseNames are no more or less fowned upon than silly_old_c_ coder_names_full_of_embedded_underscores. Name your variables and functions reasonably and the actual style becomes far less important. > Encoding the type of a function into the name (so-called Hungarian > notation) is brain damaged - the compiler knows the types anyway and can > check those, and it only confuses the programmer. No wonder MicroSoft > makes buggy programs. We agree on something at last! > LOCAL variable names should be short, and to the point. How 'bout if we just stick with "to the point." Short is irrelevant. > If you have > some random integer loop counter, it should probably be called "i". If you have some random integer loop counter, you need to rewrite your code. Keeping arrays of random stuff around is non-productive. If you are using a loop counter to enumerate each of the items in an array, name the loop counter appropriately. I.e. // If all inputs was specified, loop through each defined // switcher input and add it to the switch request. if (switchInputs == ALL_INPUTS) { for (INPUT input = 0; input < numSwInputs; input++) { INPUT swInput = toSwitcherInput(input); if (swInput != UNDEF) { request.append(swInput); LogMessage(...debugging code here...); } } } Whew! Just broke 3 or 4 of Linus' rules in that little snippet of code, paraphrased from what I'm working on right now. Funny, it still looks readable to me... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Functions should be short and sweet, and do just one thing. Exactly. Short enough, but not too short. > They should > fit on one or two screenfuls of text (the ISO/ANSI screen size is 80x24, > as we all know), and do one thing and do that well. Bzzzt! Arbitrarily setting the maximum length of a function at 48 lines is nor more or less stupid than setting at 9,604 lines, or even 111,613 lines. The function should be long enough to accomplish the task at hand. > However, if you have a complex function, and you suspect that a > less-than-gifted first-year high-school student might not even > understand what the function is all about, you should adhere to the > maximum limits all the more closely. Use helper functions with > descriptive names (you can ask the compiler to in-line them if you think > it's performance-critical, and it will probably do a better job of it > that you would have done). This assumes that you have a small, encasulated data set so you don't have to resort to global variables to accomplish this. Perversely enough, this works better in C++ than in C. Keep in mind, however, that class data members are just another form of global variables. > Another measure of the function is the number of local variables. They > shouldn't exceed 5-10, or you're doing something wrong. Re-think the > function, and split it into smaller pieces. A human brain can > generally easily keep track of about 7 different things, anything more > and it gets confused. You know you're brilliant, but maybe you'd like > to understand what you did 2 weeks from now. 7 +/- 2, according to Card, Moran, and Newell. On the other hand, aribtrarily splitting up a function into smaller functions that operate on the same data doesn't make it simpler, it makes it more complex. When you're telling the story of variable 'userSessions', you should tell it all in one function. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Comments are good, but there is also a danger of over-commenting. There are good (helpful) comments, and there are bad (unhelpful) comments, but there are NEVER too many comments. Just too many unhelpful comments. Having the entire design for a chunk of software in the comments is a wonderful thing, if the design was helpful in the first place. > NEVER > try to explain HOW your code works in a comment: it's much better to > write the code so that the _working_ is obvious, and it's a waste of > time to explain badly written code. Yup. > Generally, you want your comments to tell WHAT your code does, not HOW. Yup. > Also, try to avoid putting comments inside a function body: if the > function is so complex that you need to separately comment parts of it, Nope. As I said before, once you've marshalled some interesting data into one place (a variable or structure), you should go ahead and complete the function right then and there. If you have to do 4 separate "transformations" on that variable, your code should look like 4 paragraphs. This doesn't however require you to add in the extra conceptual overhead of splitting it into four functions. > you should probably go back to chapter 4 for a while. You can make > small comments to note or warn about something particularly clever (or > ugly), but try to avoid excess. Instead, put the comments at the head > of the function, telling people what it does, and possibly WHY it does > it. Why is fodder for the design document. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > You've made a mess of it. As we say at work, "This week, on This Old Code:" ;^) "Ah, a lovely 17th-century interrupt service routine. Unfortunately, Norm, I think we're going to have to remove it completely." > That's ok, we all do. You've probably been told by your long-time unix > user helper that "GNU emacs" automatically formats the C sources for > you, and you've noticed that yes, it does do that, but the defaults it > uses are less than desirable (in fact, they are worse than random > typing - a infinite number of monkeys typing into GNU emacs would never > make a good program). Obviously you haven't taken the time to learn how to use it correctly. Typical ignorance. Let's take a look through my .emacs file... (c-set-style "Stroustrup") Ah, the style that refreshes. Recto-cranial inversion reverted. ;^) > So, you can either get rid of GNU emacs, or change it to use saner > values. To do the latter, you can stick the following in your .emacs file: > > (defun linux-c-mode () > "C mode with adjusted defaults for use with the Linux kernel." > (interactive) > (c-mode) > (setq c-indent-level 8) > (setq c-brace-imaginary-offset 0) > (setq c-brace-offset -8) > (setq c-argdecl-indent 8) > (setq c-label-offset -8) > (setq c-continued-statement-offset 8) > (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) > (setq tab-width 8)) Gag choke puke. Make that (defun pig-ignorant-code-mode () > This will define the M-x linux-c-mode command. When hacking on a > module, if you put the string -*- linux-c -*- somewhere on the first > two lines, this mode will be automatically invoked. Also, you may want > to add > > (setq auto-mode-alist (cons '("/usr/src/linux.*/.*\\.[ch]$" . linux-c-mode) > auto-mode-alist)) > > to your .emacs file if you want to have linux-c-mode switched on > automagically when you edit source files under /usr/src/linux. Mine'll get called if you have -*- pig-ignorant-code -*- embedded somewhere in the first two lines, which is MUCH funnier. ;^) Assuming you're stupid enough to *want* to look under /usr/src/pig-ignorant-code. > "indent" has a lot of options, and especially when it comes to comment > re-formatting you may want to take a look at the manual page. But > remember: "indent" is not a fix for bad programming. Obviously -- look in /usr/src/linux! -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 00:38:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA21986 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (slipper119224.iafrica.com [196.7.119.224]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA21981 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01442; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:33:41 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199602290833.KAA01442@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: OK, so what would YOU like to see on that second CD? To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:33:40 +0200 (SAT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199602282020.NAA08748@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Feb 28, 96 01:20:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I think if you cared about speed, you'd buy more disk. > > > > Oh, but I want both speed and compression :) > > Well, you can pray to Hermes for the speed, but I have no idea which > of the Greek gods handles compression. Maybe Cybelle? 8-P. In this context, maybe Hera, who was always causing trouble with Io. 8-P -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 00:40:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA22207 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA22202 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:40:17 -0800 (PST) From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu Received: from nob (nob.cs.ucdavis.edu) by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA29516; Thu, 29 Feb 96 00:40:15 PST Received: by nob (5.x/UCDCS.SECLAB.Solaris2-2.0) id AA26034; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:40:14 -0800 Message-Id: <9602290840.AA26034@nob> Subject: Re: your mail To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:40:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "invalid opcode" at Feb 28, 96 04:51:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > This is from /usr/src/linux/Documentation/CodingStyle, it's Linus' own > personal coding style. Am I the only one here who finds this, ultimate > > -- CUT HERE ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Linux kernel coding style > > First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards, > and NOT read it. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture. > Then I'd suggest to all -- print out a copy of the _Linux_kernel_coding_style_, and NOT readit. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture. -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 07:24:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA16700 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16630 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA11376; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:26:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:26:14 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199602291526.IAA11376@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Cc: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quake's out, where's that Linux ELF emulation? In-Reply-To: <199602291132.DAA00656@rah.star-gate.com> References: <9602291055.AA15299@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> <199602291132.DAA00656@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk [ Followups directed to chat ] > > at last, a voice of reason crying in the wilderness ! It's *only* a > > game ! There are more important things to worry about. > > > > Or do I detect a hint of penis-envy in all this outrage ? ;-) (will I get > > nailed by the Feds for that ?) > > No penis-envy here . Lets see let me boot dos , run Terminal Velocity and > for hardware well lets settle for a 3d graphic hardware engine and > for sound well there is only one choice a GUS PnP. Terminal Velocity, > Tv, is much better 3d action game than quake shit 8) Nah, Descent-II. Now *that's* a really good 3D action game. :) But, there's no need for a 3D graphics engine since none of the game makers are planning on supporting them since they 'suck' (using the terminology of a couple different camps) in their current implementations. If you want to play games, save the money and get a decent joystick. (No recomendations there, I still use the keyboard). Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 10:47:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA29228 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [192.216.222.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA29223 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA01752 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:47:25 -0800 Received: (from tony@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.6.12/1.2) id LAA08510 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:46:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:46:02 -0700 From: Tony Jones Message-Id: <199602291846.LAA08510@seagull.rtd.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail Newsgroups: rtd.freebsd.chat Organization: RTD Internet Access X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk In article <9602290840.AA26034@nob> you wrote: : > This is from /usr/src/linux/Documentation/CodingStyle, it's Linus' own : > personal coding style. Am I the only one here who finds this, ultimate : > : > -- CUT HERE ----------------------------------------------------------------- : > : > Linux kernel coding style : > : > First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards, : > and NOT read it. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture. : > : Then I'd suggest to all -- print out a copy of the : _Linux_kernel_coding_style_, and NOT readit. Burn them, it's a great : symbolic gesture. Well ... 1) it's only advisory (or at least purports to be :-) 2) as C coding standards go, it's about the tamest/least offensive I've seen. Having worked on several team development projects where C coding standards have come up, or seen others groups debating them, I've grown used to seeing whole chunks of the language declared 'out of bounds'. IMHO code not conforming to the K&R standards for brace ({}) placement should be rejected by the compiler :-) tony From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 11:45:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA02512 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@[196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02489 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA06034; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 21:43:20 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199602291943.VAA06034@grumble.grondar.za> To: invalid opcode cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 21:43:19 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk invalid opcode wrote: > This is from /usr/src/linux/Documentation/CodingStyle, it's Linus' own > personal coding style. Am I the only one here who finds this, ultimate > shit? Heh, I love how he says functions can't me more than 2 pages long, > and if you are indenting beyond 3 indentions, your function is broke, and > you should recode it. Whatever Linus. I find your words a bit strong, Chris. I am not objecting to your expletives, but I find this attack to be just a little too harsh. What the man was saying makes a lot of sense. He constantly uses terms like "should" (and like-formed "softeners"). There is an explicit admonishment that this is not intended to be "_force_"ed on anybody. Hell, you had to dig it out - it wasn't even posted (except as part of something else maybe). You have taken this document, which is essentially Linus' own philosphy of his own programming style and damned it to hell with a wave of the hand and a dismissive flourish. If you don't like it, come up with something better. I may not agree with _all_ of Linus's points, but I agree with enough of them to make the document useable. It certainly has its place in the argument for the "One true programming style". The only shit I find in the whole lot is your addition, quoted at the top. Mark Murray From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 14:05:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA13934 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:05:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@[192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13914 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.4/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id OAA26289; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:05:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:05:12 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: Tony Jones cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199602291846.LAA08510@seagull.rtd.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Tony Jones wrote: > IMHO code not conforming to the K&R standards for brace ({}) placement > should be rejected by the compiler :-) > tony I dont particularly agree with that, I code my braces like this: void main( int argc, char *argv[] ) { int i = 0, p = 1; for ( int l = 10; l; l-- ) { i += p + l; p++; } } I know ^^ makes no sense, but who cares, im showing brace style. == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 14:05:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA13947 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:05:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA13923 for freebsd-chat; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:05:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199602292205.OAA13923@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: interop To: freebsd-chat Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:05:50 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk any interest in FreeBSD BOF at interop this year? -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 14:09:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA14070 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@[192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA14063 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.4/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id OAA26337; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:09:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:09:17 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: Mark Murray cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199602291943.VAA06034@grumble.grondar.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Mark Murray wrote: > I may not agree with _all_ of Linus's points, but I agree with enough > of them to make the document useable. It certainly has its place in the > argument for the "One true programming style". The only shit I find > in the whole lot is your addition, quoted at the top. > Mark Murray Let me ammend my original opinion, yes my words were too harsh, but no, I do not think this document is good. You site how Linus is not forcing anything on anyone, well of course he isn't. Nobody has to listen to a thing he says, just as nobody has to listen to anything anyone says. But if you read his general attitude, he kind of purveys the image that if you don't code in his style, that you automatically don't know what you are doing, and should be rewriting your code. I find that imo, wrong. == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 14:19:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA14460 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14450 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tony@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.6.12/1.2) id PAA21761; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:19:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:19:10 -0700 From: Tony Jones Message-Id: <199602292219.PAA21761@seagull.rtd.com> To: coredump@nervosa.com Subject: Re: your mail Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >I dont particularly agree with that, I code my braces like this: > >void main( int argc, char *argv[] ) > { > int i = 0, > p = 1; > > for ( int l = 10; l; l-- ) > { > i += p + l; > p++; > } > } > >I know ^^ makes no sense, but who cares, im showing brace style. Apart from the fact that this makes me want to reach for the nearest bucket, I think someone has been spending a little too much time coding in C++ :-) tony From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 16:19:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA23099 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA23086 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA10776; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:17:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199603010017.QAA10776@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: invalid opcode cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:09:17 PST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:17:21 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Mark Murray wrote: > >> I may not agree with _all_ of Linus's points, but I agree with enough >> of them to make the document useable. It certainly has its place in the >> argument for the "One true programming style". The only shit I find >> in the whole lot is your addition, quoted at the top. >> Mark Murray > >Let me ammend my original opinion, yes my words were too harsh, but no, I >do not think this document is good. You site how Linus is not forcing >anything on anyone, well of course he isn't. Nobody has to listen to a >thing he says, just as nobody has to listen to anything anyone says. But >if you read his general attitude, he kind of purveys the image that if >you don't code in his style, that you automatically don't know what you >are doing, and should be rewriting your code. I find that imo, wrong. You've obviously never met Linus. This is exactly how he is in person. The thing is, he *really does* think he's God's gift to programming. ...and there are a whole lot of people that follow him. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 21:59:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA17827 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 21:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17817 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 21:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA05838; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:58:38 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199603010558.HAA05838@grumble.grondar.za> To: invalid opcode cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 07:58:37 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk invalid opcode wrote: > Let me ammend my original opinion, yes my words were too harsh, but no, I > do not think this document is good. You site how Linus is not forcing > anything on anyone, well of course he isn't. Nobody has to listen to a > thing he says, just as nobody has to listen to anything anyone says. But > if you read his general attitude, he kind of purveys the image that if > you don't code in his style, that you automatically don't know what you > are doing, and should be rewriting your code. I find that imo, wrong. More like it! :-) Although if you had written a Un*x clone as popular as this, I think you would be entitled to a bit of arrogance. I'd quite like to see a bit of public debate on this, involving the Linux boys. (I'm sure this has been beaten to death there.) I am no Linux fan - I find it slow, unstable and untidy, but there are parts of it that are very good, and there are parts of the kernel that are extremely good. As an exercise for the Linux camp, I wouldn't mind checking the _whole_ of (say) slackware source into a CVS tree and inviting a core-team equivalent to clean it up. This could quite easily require a modification of the coding style. M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 22:29:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA20057 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slcmodem1-p2-13.intele.net [204.118.149.128]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA20050 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA06299; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:31:12 -0800 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:31:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199603010731.XAA06299@obie.softweyr.com> From: wes@intele.net To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: interop In-Reply-To: <199602292205.OAA13923@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199602292205.OAA13923@freefall.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > any interest in FreeBSD BOF at interop this year? Love too. I hope to make it to interop; I worked right through Uniforum. -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 29 22:51:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA21049 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:51:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21042 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23009 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:51:22 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199603010651.IAA23009@grumble.grondar.za> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: What is a "Creative Labs Video Spigot?" Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 08:51:21 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Hi Is the Creative Labs "Video Spigot" the same thing as a "Video Blaster?" If not, what is it? I am in the market for some hardware upgrades, and video is on the list. M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 02:36:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA03044 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 02:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA03036 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 02:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA28992; Fri, 1 Mar 96 02:36:10 PST From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu (David E. O'Brien) Message-Id: <9603011036.AA28992@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu> Subject: Re: your mail To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 02:36:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199602292219.PAA21761@seagull.rtd.com> from "Tony Jones" at Feb 29, 96 03:19:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > >void main( int argc, char *argv[] ) > > { > > int i = 0, > > p = 1; > > > > for ( int l = 10; l; l-- ) > > { > > i += p + l; > > p++; > > } > > } > > Apart from the fact that this makes me want to reach for the nearest bucket, > I think someone has been spending a little too much time coding in C++ :-) Can't be... main() ain't void in C++. Shall we discusss the virutues of "void main()"??? Anybody seen the comp.lang.c T-shirts with the slash through "void main()"? -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 11:38:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA03617 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03608 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.4/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id LAA29726; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: "David E. O'Brien" cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9603011036.AA28992@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, David E. O'Brien wrote: > Can't be... main() ain't void in C++. Shall we discusss the virutues of > "void main()"??? Anybody seen the comp.lang.c T-shirts with the slash > -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) a: who said it was C++? it's not. b: void main(), void main( void ), i use void main( void ) even in C++. c: i knew someone would find _something_ to criticize. =) == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 23:55:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA17474 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA17467 for chat; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:55:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:55:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199603020755.XAA17467@freefall.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: Greenman in the News Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Article: 80808 of comp.sys.intel Message-ID: <032311Z01031996@anon.penet.fi> Newsgroups: comp.sys.intel Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 03:22:23 UTC Subject: Intel fixed an iP6 chipset bug (also known as "Orion") INTEL QUIETLY FIXES BUG IN MICROPROCESSOR by Tom Abate San Francisco Examiner SAN FRANCISCO - In an incident reminiscent of the Pentium math flaw, Intel Corp. apparently has fixed a bug in the chips that surround its new Pentium Pro microprocessor, without explicitly telling customers that its newest system ever had a problem in the first place. The flaw apparently involves the Orion chipset that works hand in glove with the new Pentium Pro or P6 microprocessor. The Orion acts like a pipeline, carrying computations from the P6 to other parts of a computer system, such as network devices, hard disk drives and memory chips. But in complaints that first surfaced on the Internet, the Orion chipset comes across as a clogged drain, slowing down data transfer to such an extent that Intel's speedy P6 ends up being all but useless for many tasks that require high-speed input and output. Moreover, frustrated users say Intel has been vague about whether there is a problem or how bad it might be, leaving thousands of early adopters of the expensive P6 to rely on Internet rumors to guide purchase decisions. "You cannot get solid information from Intel," said San Francisco State Pro- fessor Tom Holton. "They have clammed up." Holton had asked Intel whether the rumored flaw would affect a $10,000 Pen- tium Pro workstation he wanted to buy for his speech recognition experiments. Intel spokesman Tom Waldrop said Thursday his company had not hidden the Pentium Pro's input-output problems. He said Intel posted a note on the World Wide Web Nov. 6. It said that certain circumstances "can reduce the throughput of the entire I/O system." However, the statement did not mention the Orion chipset. David Greenman, a programmer in Portland, said members of Intel's P6 devel- opment group had confirmed the Internet rumors after he used an inside contact in the group to ask about the sluggish transfer rate of a P6 system he bought in December. "I found out very quickly there was a known problem with the Orion chipset," Greenman said. He said Intel engineers had been kind enough to loan him a P6 system with a revised chipset that solved his transfer problem. Greenman is known as a leading author of a free version of the Unix operating system called FreeBSD and helps maintain one of the world's largest Internet sites. Intel's Waldrop said Greenman's problem was that he had been using his Pen- tium Pro as a server computer to dish out information on the Internet. Early versions of the chip were not designed for that. But because Greenman was a noted programmer running an important Internet site, Intel loaned him a proto- type of a P6 system with chips designed for network use. "You should not construe this as a bug," Waldrop said. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 00:12:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA18906 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 00:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA18901 Sat, 2 Mar 1996 00:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id AAA13671; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 00:13:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199603020813.AAA13671@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Jeffrey Hsu cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greenman in the News In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Mar 1996 23:55:04 PST." <199603020755.XAA17467@freefall.freebsd.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 00:13:15 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > INTEL QUIETLY FIXES BUG IN MICROPROCESSOR Yeah, this whole thing has caused quite a stir. It's what the reporter left out that is the problem - I clearly pointed out that there was a hardware work-around for the bug that ASUSTek didn't have on their motherboard and of course it's not fair to compare a performance problem with a legitimate wrong-answer FDIV bug. Intel was not pleased (to say the least), but I think we all have a clear idea of what happend now - that I actually defended Intel's position and the reporter was highly selective in which comments of mine he used. Sigh. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 01:12:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA21797 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 01:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.101]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA21787 Sat, 2 Mar 1996 01:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA04406; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:19:09 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA04418; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:14:37 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603020914.KAA04418@ida.interface-business.de> Subject: I'm temporarily unreachable To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, de-bsd-chat@blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de, core@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:14:37 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch%uriah.heep.sax.de@interface-business.de X-Phone: +49-351-31809-14 X-Fax: +49-351-3361187 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm back from the GUUG meeting in Köln now, and sitting on a pile of ~ 800 messages. My normal "ISP", sax.sax.de, is suffering from a power outage scheduled for the entire weekend. :-(( So don't expect any quick responses from me. People who wanna reach me within this period can use joerg_wunsch%uriah.heep.sax.de@interface-business.de as a backup route. (Reply-To should be set accordingly.) -- J"org Wunsch Unix support engineer joerg_wunsch@interface-business.de http://www.interface-business.de/~j From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 12:46:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA16496 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 12:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16487 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 12:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from max2-194.HiWAAY.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id AA09323; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 14:46:36 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 14:46:39 -0600 To: chat@freefall.freebsd.org From: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Subject: Re: Greenman in the News Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk At 2:13 AM 3/2/96, David Greenman wrote: > Intel was not pleased (to say the least), but I think we all have a clear >idea of what happend now - that I actually defended Intel's position and >the reporter was highly selective in which comments of mine he used. Sigh. Sad, but not unusual. Look what the press does to Apple. -- David Kelly N4HHE, n4hhe@amsat.org, dkelly@hiwaay.net ============================================================= To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. - Thomas Edison From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 19:28:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA06267 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 19:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06262 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 19:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from maryann.eng.umd.edu (maryann.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.209]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.3/8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19555; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by maryann.eng.umd.edu (8.7.4/8.7) id WAA15261; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:28:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:28:49 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@maryann.eng.umd.edu To: Charles Green cc: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX Specification In-Reply-To: <199603022004.PAA18726@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Charles Green wrote: > Chuck Robey stands accused of saying: > } Date: Mar 2, 0:32 > } Subject: Re: UNIX Specification > } On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, Charles Green wrote: > } > } > How close to the "SINGLE UNIX SPECIFICATION" is FreeBSD? > } > } I'm tempted to laugh here. You may not know it, but lack of a SINGLE > } UNIX SPECIFICATION is probably the single most talked about subject of > } the last 10 years for the Unix community. Since there is no such thing, > } well, FreeBSD is (I suppose) as close as my digital wristwatch. > > Laugh if you wish but with the merger of X/Open and OSF I've > found that this is becoming more of an issue. Besides, I'd like to see > FreeBSD branded as an official "UNIX". > > } This is very philosophical, be real careful in drawing too much from it. > } FreeBSD does (in my own opinion) care somewhat more about standards, and > } definitely has a lot of very good points, including pretty solid > } networking code, and relatively fewer fanatics on the mailing lists here > } than Linux seems to have. > > I'm aware of this but what I'm not aware of is *exactly* how close > it is... I wasn't being fascetious. You define what you actually mean by your reference to SINGLE UNIX SPECIFICATION, then you can get an answer. I'm horrible at names, but I think I've seen yours before; I wasn't sure, so I gave you an answer I would give to an absolute newbie. You know as well as I there isn't any one true unix yet. If this wasn't flamebait, and you still want an answer, be more specific and you might get one. My personal gripe is actually the lack of the SINGLE UNIX SPECIFICATION. It's generally conceded that this lack is unixland's biggest failing. BTW, this belongs in FreeBSD-chat, not questions. I changed the CC: list to reflect that. ========================================================================== Chuck Robey chuckr@eng.umd.edu, I run FreeBSD-current on n3lxx + Journey2 Three Accounts for the Super-users in the sky, Seven for the Operators in their halls of fame, Nine for Ordinary Users doomed to crie, One for the Illegal Cracker with his evil game In the Domains of Internet where the data lie. One Account to rule them all, One Account to watch them, One Account to make them all and in the network bind them. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 21:06:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA13095 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA13088 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id AAA21311; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 00:06:49 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 00:06:49 -0500 From: Charles Green Message-Id: <199603030506.AAA21311@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> In-Reply-To: Chuck Robey "Re: UNIX Specification" (Mar 2, 22:28) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Chuck Robey Subject: Re: UNIX Specification Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey stands accused of saying: } } I wasn't being fascetious. You define what you actually mean by your } reference to SINGLE UNIX SPECIFICATION, then you can get an answer. Actually that was a cut and paste off of http://www.xopen.co.uk/public/tech/unix/overview.htm The technical specification for UNIX (as they refer to it :-) } I'm } horrible at names, but I think I've seen yours before; I wasn't sure, so Yeah I've been hanging around and throwing my two cents worth every once and awhile. } I gave you an answer I would give to an absolute newbie. You know as } well as I there isn't any one true unix yet. If this wasn't flamebait, } and you still want an answer, be more specific and you might get one. The truth is, I was fishing to see what kind of answer I would get. How much and what kind of opinions such a tearse question might generate. } } My personal gripe is actually the lack of the SINGLE UNIX SPECIFICATION. } It's generally conceded that this lack is unixland's biggest failing. } X/Open seem to think they have one. But again I'm not too familiar with the politics involved. But I would like to see FreeBSD branded with the official UNIX name. Rather that UN*X-like... } BTW, this belongs in FreeBSD-chat, not questions. I changed the CC: list } to reflect that. Duely noted...I agree (20-20 hindsight :-) } }-- End of excerpt from Chuck Robey -- Charles Green, PRC Inc. UN*X System Administration 22 Powell Ave. Apt. B UN*X Security & Whitesboro, NY 13492 Programming From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 21:19:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA13954 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA13949 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA00487; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:19:19 -0800 (PST) To: Charles Green cc: Chuck Robey , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX Specification In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Mar 1996 00:06:49 EST." <199603030506.AAA21311@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 21:19:18 -0800 Message-ID: <485.825830358@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > X/Open seem to think they have one. But again I'm not too familiar > with the politics involved. But I would like to see FreeBSD branded with > the official UNIX name. Rather that UN*X-like... Brother, can you spare approximately $90,000? :-) That's about what it will initially cost for the validations suites alone, plus a $50K/year contract to keep it active. And the per-copy royalties for each and every copy sold as "UNIX" - that could easily run another $50K, depending. Trust me, I've talked with X/Open a fair bit about this, and I've done my best to explain the uniqueness of our situation. To date, however, their prices remain unchanged and thus so also does our "UNIX" brand status. Jordan