From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 17 3: 6:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3E437B446; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id DAA70255; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:06:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Christopher Stein Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: looking for roommate for BSDCon 2000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Christopher Stein wrote: > I will be attending BSDCon 2000 and am looking for someone to share a room > at the Hyatt with. I am a 27-year old male grad student. My estimated stay > period is 10/16 - 10/20. If you are also looking for a roommate please get > in touch. I'm also looking for a roommate and will be there for the same time period - Chris, did you find a taker yet? If yes, anyone else want to share? Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 17 6:45:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187FC37B424 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 06:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.255.96.167]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000917103436.BRML282.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:34:36 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8HAYJG01782; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:34:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:34:18 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Greg Lehey Cc: Jim Mock , Anthony Chavez , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rms runs FreeBSD? (was: RWS) Message-ID: <20000917113418.A257@parish> References: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <20000916174932.A81641@envy.geekhouse.net> <20000917103631.D42114@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000917103631.D42114@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 10:36:31AM +0930 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 10:36:31AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 16 September 2000 at 17:49:32 -0700, Jim Mock wrote: > > > > Ask him why www.stallman.org runs on FreeBSD ;-) That provide some > > interesting conversation. > > > > See http://www.netcraft.com/whats/?host=www.stallman.org for the facts. > > www.stallman.org is running Apache/1.3.6 (Unix) on FreeBSD > > Fascinating. Yes, I'd like to hear his response to that question, > too. > I sincerely hope that this is true, but read http://www.netcraft.com/os/accuracy.html before you go storming in :) > My rms story: at the AUUG winter conference in September 1998, I went > to a Stallman Emacs tutorial. He was late (which is normal enough; > expect him to be late at your event as well), and while we were > waiting I went to my hotel room to get my laptop. When I came down I > found Stallman standing in the empty lobby, looking lost. I took him > to the tutorial, where he unpacked his old, mouldy laptop out of an > even older, mouldy plastic bag, and discovered he had left the power > supply behind. He ended up using my laptop, running (of course) > FreeBSD. At the time he was quite complimentary about FreeBSD, saying > that it was, after all, free software, and that it was just a pity > about that dreadful license. > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 17 8:46:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F8837B423 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13agms-0000WW-00; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:55:26 -0600 Message-ID: <39C4E96E.BF8C1968@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 09:55:26 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Doyle Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Articles on the "Open Source" concept References: <3.0.5.32.20000915115451.00820210@199.107.2.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Doyle wrote: > > Hi All > > The accountant in my company has just noticed that I deployed another > application on our FreeBSD server. (A web-based group calendar from > SourceForge). > > He seems to be amazed that I got this "free", and wants to know more about > open source. The only articles I have bookmarked are the ESR writings. I know > there are other contrasting and opposing views out there. > > Has anyone got any handy URLs for the ethos behind creating/mantaining > Open Source projects ? Of course: http://www.daemonnews.org/200003/d-advocate.html ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 17 8:47:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3382837B42C for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8HFlhs11382; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:47:43 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Anthony Chavez Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000917084743.I15156@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com>; from magus@magus.users.xmission.com on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:38:33PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Anthony Chavez [000916 12:35] wrote: > Looks like RWS is going to be in town (Logan, UT) next Tuesday, > advocating GNU/Linux and autographing. I'm half-tempted to go wearing > one of my many BSD t-shirts and ask him to autograph my copy of > McKusick's book. Unfortunately, I don't have the balls. :-) > > Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways to > advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't want to > piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get people > interested in BSD as an alternative. > > Wes, are you going to attend? Could use your presence for morale. :-) I would be pretty conservative, after all it is RMS, and you don't want to look like a bitter BSD advocate. I would simple ask for an encore of the Free Software Song then slip in some earplugs or flee. >;) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Sep 17 8:52:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D55937B422 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13agrX-0000Wr-00; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:00:15 -0600 Message-ID: <39C4EA8E.5974F63C@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:00:14 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carlos A M dos Santos Cc: Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Articles on the "Open Source" concept References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Carlos A M dos Santos wrote: > > You shoult take a look at "The Ethics of Free Software" for a less rosy > point of view: > > http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml Heh, I've even referenced this article myself. I did, however, have the sense to point out Dr. Meyer contradicts himself several times in the course of this diatribe, even stooping so low as to perform *exactly* the same disservice he so thoroughly chides Eric Raymond for, in the process of chiding Eric. Upon contemplation, this is a poorly thought out impassioned plea masqeurading as a carefully written philosophical discourse. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 2:48:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tribble.medianet.ie (tribble.medianet.ie [212.17.32.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7DE237B423 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: [from liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (pear.medianet.ie [212.17.34.171]) by tribble.medianet.ie (DIESPAM) with ESMTP id e8I9mZV24869 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:48:35 +0100] Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14694 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:47:34 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000918104842.0086f780@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:48:42 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Mike Doyle Subject: Re: RWS In-Reply-To: <20000916135840.I12955@magus.users.xmission.com> References: <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was looking at the GNU website on Friday, and they still have a not-very-complimentary peice about the BSD licence, even though the clause in question has been removed. At 13:58 16/09/00 -0600, you wrote: >On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:38:13PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: >> RMS, you mean? > >*blush* Yeah. :-) > >> I'd ask him what he thinks of the BSD license now that the advertising clause >> has been removed. >> >> If he starts to be an ass remind him that it's now "more free" then the GPL, >> I'm sure that would push a button or two. > >I will say anything you want me to once I can back it all up with facts. >I need ammo and I need it fast. > >But then, I'm not going so I can start a fight. I just want to sway >as many people that I can to BSD. > >-- >magus@xmission.com http://wwp.icq.com/17901391 >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Linux is for Microsoft haters. BSD is for Unix lovers. >http://www.freebsd.org/ http://www.openbsd.org/ http://www.netbsd.org/ > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > <>< ============================================================ ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.co-operation-ireland.ie/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 9:46: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C082C37B423 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.253.90.68]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000918164601.OMRL317.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:46:01 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8IGjtP01338; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:45:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:45:54 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Mike Doyle Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000918174554.B567@parish> References: <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000916135840.I12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <3.0.5.32.20000918104842.0086f780@199.107.2.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000918104842.0086f780@199.107.2.1>; from relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:48:42AM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:48:42AM +0100, Mike Doyle wrote: > I was looking at the GNU website on Friday, and they still have a > not-very-complimentary peice about the BSD licence, even though the > clause in question has been removed. > Just remind me, what exactly was the advertising clause? ISTR that it was something to do with displaying a credit for the CSRG (or Berkeley). If that was the case, what was the FSF's gripe? Fire up emacs, gdb, etc. and what do you get? An advert for GNU/FSF. > > At 13:58 16/09/00 -0600, you wrote: > >On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:38:13PM -0400, Bill Fumerola > wrote: > >> RMS, you mean? > > > >*blush* Yeah. :-) > > > >> I'd ask him what he thinks of the BSD license now that the advertising > clause > >> has been removed. > >> > >> If he starts to be an ass remind him that it's now "more free" then the > GPL, > >> I'm sure that would push a button or two. > > > >I will say anything you want me to once I can back it all up with facts. > >I need ammo and I need it fast. > > > >But then, I'm not going so I can start a fight. I just want to sway > >as many people that I can to BSD. > > > >-- > >magus@xmission.com http://wwp.icq.com/17901391 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Linux is for Microsoft haters. BSD is for Unix lovers. > >http://www.freebsd.org/ http://www.openbsd.org/ http://www.netbsd.org/ > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > <>< ============================================================ ><> > Michael Doyle email: relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie > Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie > Co-operation Ireland http://www.co-operation-ireland.ie/ > Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 > > ********************************************************************* > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 10:23:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E6237B43E; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8IHNMT23421; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:23:22 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Mark Ovens Cc: Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000916135840.I12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <3.0.5.32.20000918104842.0086f780@199.107.2.1> <20000918174554.B567@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000918174554.B567@parish>; from marko@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:45:54PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Mark Ovens [000918 09:46] wrote: > On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:48:42AM +0100, Mike Doyle wrote: > > I was looking at the GNU website on Friday, and they still have a > > not-very-complimentary peice about the BSD licence, even though the > > clause in question has been removed. > > > > Just remind me, what exactly was the advertising clause? ISTR that it > was something to do with displaying a credit for the CSRG (or > Berkeley). If that was the case, what was the FSF's gripe? Fire up > emacs, gdb, etc. and what do you get? An advert for GNU/FSF. 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors. Which sorta stinks because if you have a television add it basically means that at the end you need to scroll that, even worse a lot of individuals have files under the copyright with that clause as well so that doing a television add is pretty much a pain in the butt. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 10:33:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (host76-243.iwbc.net [216.228.76.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0EB237B424 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13b4mu-0006XF-00; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:33:04 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:33:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RWS In-Reply-To: <20000918174554.B567@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Just remind me, what exactly was the advertising clause? ISTR that it > was something to do with displaying a credit for the CSRG (or > Berkeley). If that was the case, what was the FSF's gripe? Fire up > emacs, gdb, etc. and what do you get? An advert for GNU/FSF. 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors. ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/ucb/4bsd/README.Impt.License.Change says "Effective immediately, licensees and distributors are no longer required to include the acknowledgement within advertising materials." Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 10:35:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD24237B423 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.255.96.19]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000918173529.RBPR312.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:35:29 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8IHZPQ02419; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:35:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:35:24 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000918183524.G567@parish> References: <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000916135840.I12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <3.0.5.32.20000918104842.0086f780@199.107.2.1> <20000918174554.B567@parish> <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:23:22AM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:23:22AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Mark Ovens [000918 09:46] wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:48:42AM +0100, Mike Doyle wrote: > > > I was looking at the GNU website on Friday, and they still have a > > > not-very-complimentary peice about the BSD licence, even though the > > > clause in question has been removed. > > > > > > > Just remind me, what exactly was the advertising clause? ISTR that it > > was something to do with displaying a credit for the CSRG (or > > Berkeley). If that was the case, what was the FSF's gripe? Fire up > > emacs, gdb, etc. and what do you get? An advert for GNU/FSF. > > 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software > must display the following acknowledgement: > This product includes software developed by the University of > California, Berkeley and its contributors. > > Which sorta stinks because if you have a television add it basically > means that at the end you need to scroll that, even worse a lot of > individuals have files under the copyright with that clause as well > so that doing a television add is pretty much a pain in the butt. > Thanks for refreshing my memory. I'd forgotten it referred to "All advertising materials", I thought it only referred to the program itself. > -Alfred > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 13: 1:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A84B37B423 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9D4F81C6B; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:01:46 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000918160146.J66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000918174554.B567@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:33:04AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:33:04AM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/ucb/4bsd/README.Impt.License.Change says > "Effective immediately, licensees and distributors are no longer required > to include the acknowledgement within advertising materials." Which is okay for 4.4bsd derived files, but if I checked in a file to the tree with the standard license 2 years ago, you now have to contact me to get it removed, because its my copyright, not UCBs. This gets more complicated if I was hit by a bus in the mean time, or am now out of reach ("screw computers! I'm going to become a hermit!"), because you have to contact _me_. Well, at least that's how I understand it. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 13:30: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.intop.net (smtp.intop.net [206.156.254.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B721A37B423 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from charlie (iwkcpe.intop.net [208.149.79.30]) by smtp.intop.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25618; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:31:30 -0500 Message-Id: <200009182031.PAA25618@smtp.intop.net> From: "Charlie Schloemer" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Anthony Chavez Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:46:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: RWS In-reply-to: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 16 Sep 00, at 13:38, Anthony Chavez wrote: > Looks like RWS is going to be in town (Logan, UT) next Tuesday, > advocating GNU/Linux and autographing. I'm half-tempted to go wearing > one of my many BSD t-shirts and ask him to autograph my copy of > McKusick's book. Unfortunately, I don't have the balls. :-) > Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways to > advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't want to > piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get people > interested in BSD as an alternative. RMS isn't going to let you use his platform for promoting *BSD, I think, and you may find he meets your attempt with an unpleasant answer before a captive audience. -Charlie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 20:17:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE29A37B424 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13bE3e-0000H7-00; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:26:58 -0600 Message-ID: <39C6DD02.866A4406@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:26:58 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charlie Schloemer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Anthony Chavez Subject: Re: RWS References: <200009182031.PAA25618@smtp.intop.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Charlie Schloemer wrote: > > On 16 Sep 00, at 13:38, Anthony Chavez wrote: > > > Looks like RWS is going to be in town (Logan, UT) next Tuesday, > > advocating GNU/Linux and autographing. I'm half-tempted to go wearing > > one of my many BSD t-shirts and ask him to autograph my copy of > > McKusick's book. Unfortunately, I don't have the balls. :-) > > > Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways to > > advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't want to > > piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get people > > interested in BSD as an alternative. > > RMS isn't going to let you use his platform for promoting *BSD, I > think, and you may find he meets your attempt with an unpleasant > answer before a captive audience. And yet it will be interesting to ask him about his opinion of the BSD license now the "advertising clause" has been removed, and why the FSF website about this issue hasn't been updated. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 20:20:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE84937B422 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 20:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13bE5z-0000H9-00; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:29:23 -0600 Message-ID: <39C6DD93.280F6918@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:29:23 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RWS References: <20000918174554.B567@parish> <20000918160146.J66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:33:04AM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > > ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/ucb/4bsd/README.Impt.License.Change says > > "Effective immediately, licensees and distributors are no longer required > > to include the acknowledgement within advertising materials." > > Which is okay for 4.4bsd derived files, but if I checked in a file to the > tree with the standard license 2 years ago, you now have to contact me to > get it removed, because its my copyright, not UCBs. > > This gets more complicated if I was hit by a bus in the mean time, or am > now out of reach ("screw computers! I'm going to become a hermit!"), because > you have to contact _me_. > > Well, at least that's how I understand it. That depends on whether you changed/added a license that claims YOUR copyright, or merely committed changes with the original copyright in place. Yes, it certainly can be a problem when people contribute code claiming their copyright and then go Kaczinski on us. Which reminds me, I should go through my stuff and change the copyrights for anything that didn't already get the 2-clause license. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 21:25:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDF837B422 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13bF6p-0000Ig-00; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:34:19 -0600 Message-ID: <39C6ECCB.9ED273D@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:34:19 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carlos A M dos Santos Cc: Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Articles on the "Open Source" concept References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Carlos A M dos Santos wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > Carlos A M dos Santos wrote: > > > > > > You shoult take a look at "The Ethics of Free Software" for a less rosy > > > point of view: > > > > > > http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml > > > > Heh, I've even referenced this article myself. I did, however, have > > the sense to point out Dr. Meyer contradicts himself several times in > > the course of this diatribe, even stooping so low as to perform > > *exactly* the same disservice he so thoroughly chides Eric Raymond > > for, in the process of chiding Eric. Upon contemplation, this is a > > poorly thought out impassioned plea masqeurading as a carefully > > written philosophical discourse. > > Of course it's a philosophical discourse, in the same sense that ESR's > "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" (CatB) is, but I could not find a single > lie in Meyer's article. CatB, OTOH is full of false assumptions about the > quality of "open source" software and is based on a distorted > interpretation of Fred Brook's book "The mythical man-month". CatB has no > scientific base. Did I in any way infer that it has an scientific base, or even any value? No. It is a poorly written and very poorly thought-out advertisement for Linux. Dr. Meyer's article is presented as a philosophical discourse, but in truth is a carefully worded ad hominem attack on Eric S. Raymond, which has NO place in public discourse about software development methodology. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 21:54:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7696837B423 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA19027 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:54:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAPra4hL; Mon Sep 18 21:54:18 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11960 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:54:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009190454.VAA11960@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Interesting advocacy opportunity/challenge To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 04:54:00 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just bought a laptop the other day (a Sony Vaio, if anyone care; if you need to know how to run X on a PCG-XG29, I can now tell you). I also bought a dongle-less Linksys PCMCIA 10/100 ethernet adapter (the PC-CARD eject button is a close fit, but it works in the top slot). The interesting thing about this is that the first thing I see when I open the Linksys box is a "TurboLinux Workstation 6.0 Lite" CDROM. (!) These Linux guys are doing some clever marketing, and FreeBSD needs to do the same, or it's going to lose ground to the much more aggressive Linux advocacy. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 18 22: 7:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A0437B423; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11765; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:06:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAi1aq6w; Mon Sep 18 22:05:57 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA12169; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:07:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: RWS To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 05:07:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: marko@FreeBSD.ORG (Mark Ovens), relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie (Mike Doyle), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net> from "Alfred Perlstein" at Sep 18, 2000 10:23:22 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Just remind me, what exactly was the advertising clause? ISTR that it > > was something to do with displaying a credit for the CSRG (or > > Berkeley). If that was the case, what was the FSF's gripe? Fire up > > emacs, gdb, etc. and what do you get? An advert for GNU/FSF. > > 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software > must display the following acknowledgement: > This product includes software developed by the University of > California, Berkeley and its contributors. > > Which sorta stinks because if you have a television add it basically > means that at the end you need to scroll that, even worse a lot of > individuals have files under the copyright with that clause as well > so that doing a television add is pretty much a pain in the butt. Alfred, this is wrong. See the part about "mentioning features or use of this software"? If you don't mention "Now with BSD technology!" or "Includes TCP/IP!", then you don't have to say squat in the advertising materials. RMS claims that this is an "advertising clause", but in fact, it's what's called a "claim credit clause"; its intent is to keep you from claiming credit for someone else's code: "AlfredOS! With the best TCP/IP money can buy!" Legally, there is an argument that, on a purely constructionist basis, one can not enforce a "hold harmless" clause (clause 2 of the two clause license) without also enforcing a claim credit clause. The argument is based on the idea of someone taking your work, adding buggy code to it, selling it, and then causing harm as a result. The original author still suffers the percentage of liabilty relative to their proportion of the authorship, even if their code was not, itself, buggy; this as a result of their contributory negligence in making the source code available. All in all, an icky argument, but one that it would be hard to defend against without significant legal resources... and the original author probably wouldn't have them, and so would be the target weakest link for litigation by the harmed party, to use as leverage against the actual guilty party. The harmed party might feel bad about tarring the original author with the same brush, but... anything to win a case. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 0:14:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9A537B422; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8J7EfP16775; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:14:40 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Ovens , Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000919001440.C9141@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net> <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 05:07:14AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Terry Lambert [000918 22:07] wrote: > > > Just remind me, what exactly was the advertising clause? ISTR that it > > > was something to do with displaying a credit for the CSRG (or > > > Berkeley). If that was the case, what was the FSF's gripe? Fire up > > > emacs, gdb, etc. and what do you get? An advert for GNU/FSF. > > > > 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software > > must display the following acknowledgement: > > This product includes software developed by the University of > > California, Berkeley and its contributors. > > > > Which sorta stinks because if you have a television add it basically > > means that at the end you need to scroll that, even worse a lot of > > individuals have files under the copyright with that clause as well > > so that doing a television add is pretty much a pain in the butt. > > Alfred, this is wrong. > > See the part about "mentioning features or use of this software"? > > If you don't mention "Now with BSD technology!" or "Includes TCP/IP!", > then you don't have to say squat in the advertising materials. You're correct, however it'd be pretty hard to sell a BSD based product any other way. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 1:41:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE14937B423; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA19860; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:38:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAdQaGVM; Tue Sep 19 01:38:34 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA24176; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:41:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009190841.BAA24176@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: RWS To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:41:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), marko@FreeBSD.ORG (Mark Ovens), relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie (Mike Doyle), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000919001440.C9141@fw.wintelcom.net> from "Alfred Perlstein" at Sep 19, 2000 12:14:40 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > See the part about "mentioning features or use of this software"? > > > > If you don't mention "Now with BSD technology!" or "Includes TCP/IP!", > > then you don't have to say squat in the advertising materials. > > You're correct, however it'd be pretty hard to sell a BSD based > product any other way. Only if you had some insane and fiscally unjustifiable compulsion to label it as such. For example, InterJets don't claim features or use of BSD in advertising. They give credit on their web pages, not because they have to, but because they choose to. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 3:38:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br (gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br [200.248.148.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949AF37B42C for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 03:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (casantos@localhost) by gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20245; Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:22:18 GMT (envelope-from casantos@cpmet.ufpel.tche.br) X-Authentication-Warning: gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br: casantos owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:22:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Carlos A M dos Santos To: Wes Peters Cc: Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Articles on the "Open Source" concept In-Reply-To: <39C4EA8E.5974F63C@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > Carlos A M dos Santos wrote: > > > > You shoult take a look at "The Ethics of Free Software" for a less rosy > > point of view: > > > > http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml > > Heh, I've even referenced this article myself. I did, however, have > the sense to point out Dr. Meyer contradicts himself several times in > the course of this diatribe, even stooping so low as to perform > *exactly* the same disservice he so thoroughly chides Eric Raymond > for, in the process of chiding Eric. Upon contemplation, this is a > poorly thought out impassioned plea masqeurading as a carefully > written philosophical discourse. Of course it's a philosophical discourse, in the same sense that ESR's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" (CatB) is, but I could not find a single lie in Meyer's article. CatB, OTOH is full of false assumptions about the quality of "open source" software and is based on a distorted interpretation of Fred Brook's book "The mythical man-month". CatB has no scientific base. -- Carlos A. M. dos Santos Federal University of Pelotas Meteorological Research Center Av. Ildefonso Simoes Lopes 2791 Pelotas, RS, Brasil, CEP 96060-290 WWW: http://www.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br RENPAC (X.25): 153231641 Phone: +55 53 277-6767 FAX: +55 53 277-6722 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 12:43:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lafontaine.cybercable.fr (lafontaine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3019E37B424 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16146938 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2000 19:42:25 -0000 Received: from r227m167.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.227.167]) (envelope-sender ) by lafontaine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 19 Sep 2000 19:42:25 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8JJgMc03338; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:42:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) From: Cyrille Lefevre Message-Id: <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? In-Reply-To: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> "from Akbar at Sep 19, 2000 12:29:35 pm" To: Akbar Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:42:20 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: clefevre@citeweb.net Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL82 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Akbar wrote: [snip] > wat is so special about BSD? wat is the major difference between BSD and > Linux?? if its so robust then why is linux so hyped? i am a bit confused. i BSD vs GNU/Linux central development (non central development dor linux boxes) ports system (aka rpm for linux boxes) from my point of view, much more unix philosophy compliant public domain (/usr/local) != userland (/) where linux boxes merges both and many more reasons... > am seeking out a career in security area and i am seriously thinking of > learning 1 unix based OS. and i am stuck. which one would be best to learn?? for security purpose, OpenBSD is well suitable. > linux or BSD?? and how far the knowledge of each OS would allow me to shift > to other OS? i mean, if i learn BSD would be easy for me to program in > Linux? or vice versa?? you'll probably get better habits w/ BSD than w/ GNU/Linux. much better is to follow standards and not to use all those non-standard libraries whatever they are easy to use. so, your programs would runs on many unix flavors. > p.s. if i start to learn BSD which version or distribution is best suited? for x86, FreeBSD 4.1 would be apropriate and have a bigger audience than others BSD (OpenBSD and NetBSD). > (i have programming experience of C, C++ and java and i have worked on Unix > some 3 yrs back) sounds good :) much better is to follow this thread in freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org or freebsd-chat@freebsd.org. CC: positionned. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre@citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 14:36:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C54D37B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22076 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:36:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:36:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: nice comments about FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, I was digging around getting ready to install FreeBSD on our "it'll be there RSN" new astronomical image processing computer. Many, if not most, astronomers use the IRAF software (http://iraf.noao.edu/iraf-homepage.html) to do their image processing. There are FBSD builds available (which is nice). In their README file you find the following comments (whether they are absolutely correct or not is up to you, they're certainly complimentary): ------------------------------------------------------------------------ o FreeBSD [dist: fbsd arch: freebsd] Install and use the freebsd binaries. You might be able to run the linux binaries in compatibility mode (FreeBSD can run some Linux binaries), but currently FreeBSD does not support ELF. FreeBSD is arguably the most solid, workstation class PC operating system currently available. Very popular for servers. May be a better multiprocess system than Linux but Linux may be a better single user system. More stable than Linux and avoids the similar-but-different multiple distributions problem which plagues Linux, but Linux is more popular and supports a wider range of hardware and add-on software (although the difference is getting pretty small). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pretty nice. Now if the darn machine will just get here! Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 15:18: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABA537B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from owp.csus.edu (twvaro@[130.86.77.19]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA58189; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:17:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <39C7E4FD.9892247B@owp.csus.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:13:17 -0700 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Taylor Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: nice comments about FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Taylor wrote: > > Hi all, > > I was digging around getting ready to install FreeBSD on our "it'll be > there RSN" new astronomical image processing computer. Many, if not most, > astronomers use the IRAF software > > (http://iraf.noao.edu/iraf-homepage.html) > > to do their image processing. There are FBSD builds available (which is > nice). In their README file you find the following comments (whether they > are absolutely correct or not is up to you, they're certainly > complimentary): > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > o FreeBSD [dist: fbsd arch: freebsd] > > Install and use the freebsd binaries. You might be able to run the linux > binaries in compatibility mode (FreeBSD can run some Linux binaries), but > currently FreeBSD does not support ELF. FreeBSD is arguably the most ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I believe the move to ELF was back in 3.x, they may wish to update this info. > solid, workstation class PC operating system currently available. Very > popular for servers. May be a better multiprocess system than Linux but > Linux may be a better single user system. More stable than Linux and > avoids the similar-but-different multiple distributions problem which > plagues Linux, but Linux is more popular and supports a wider range of > hardware and add-on software (although the difference is getting pretty > small). -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu The Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 16:10:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED6637B424 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.255.97.7]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000919231001.ZZCT312.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:10:01 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8JN9X600584; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:09:33 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:08:07 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000920000807.A257@parish> References: <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net> <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 05:07:14AM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 05:07:14AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > The argument is based on the idea of someone taking your > work, adding buggy code to it, selling it, and then causing harm > as a result. Hmm, sounds familiar. BSD TCP/IP stack, M$, "extend and embrace".... -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 17:13:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magus.users.xmission.com (magus.users.xmission.com [204.228.152.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDCE37B423 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from magus@localhost) by magus.users.xmission.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18178 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:16:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from magus) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:16:48 -0600 From: Anthony Chavez To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RMS Message-ID: <20000919181648.A18121@magus.users.xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm going to be leaving to go to the RMS presentation in about half an hour now. Just thought I'd like to mention that I'll be asking him what he thinks about the 2-clause BSD license and posting his response to the list. I will ~not~, however, be asking him about www.stallman.org because I feel that it's flamebait and I'm underprepared. -- magus@xmission.com http://wwp.icq.com/17901391 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ``The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.'' -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 21:17: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2539437B424; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0AF831C6B; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:16:52 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: clefevre@citeweb.net Cc: Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Message-ID: <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org>; from root@gits.dyndns.org on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:42:20PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:42:20PM +0200, Cyrille Lefevre wrote: > > am seeking out a career in security area and i am seriously thinking of > > learning 1 unix based OS. and i am stuck. which one would be best to learn?? > > for security purpose, OpenBSD is well suitable. just curious: Do you say this just because everyone says "well, FreeBSD is stable/performance, OpenBSD is security oriented, NetBSD is portable", because OpenBSD markets themselves towards security, or based on an independent thought? Every BSD has its strong point, but I wish people would elaborate more then *grunt*grunt* OpenBSD for security *grunt*grunt* -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 21:28:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hecky.it.northwestern.edu (hecky.acns.nwu.edu [129.105.16.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A0037B422; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by hecky.it.northwestern.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21822; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:28:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from confusion.net (dhcp089155.res-hall.nwu.edu [199.74.89.155]) by hecky.acns.nwu.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma021686; Tue, 19 Sep 00 23:28:11 -0500 Message-ID: <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:27:50 -0500 From: Laurence Berland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think people tend to assume that because they are very forward about the fact that they ship strong crypto, and that they have done the big code audit, that they are more secure. People tend not to realize that (AFAIK) we also ship strong crypto stuff (I remember something, search the -security archives a while back, I haven't actually installed from CD in a while). In terms of clean code, I think that FreeBSDs strength over a certain other open-source OS tends to do with the quality of code. A lot more peer review goes on here, and that's part of why I aspire to write code for FreeBSD some day (sooner or later, I promise, but I really should actually pay attention to my classes freshman year). I don't think I can write code of that quality yet, but I think if someone starts publishing patches to PRs, adding features, etc., there's perhaps a bit more review than goes into other OSs, especially given the (IMHO superior) way FreeBSDs userland is done compared to Linux. I don't think OpenBSD has much over FreeBSD in terms of quality of code, but the perception sort of persists because they are always pushing themselves as security. Am I crazy? Laurence Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:42:20PM +0200, Cyrille Lefevre wrote: > > > > am seeking out a career in security area and i am seriously thinking of > > > learning 1 unix based OS. and i am stuck. which one would be best to learn?? > > > > for security purpose, OpenBSD is well suitable. > > just curious: > > Do you say this just because everyone says "well, FreeBSD is stable/performance, > OpenBSD is security oriented, NetBSD is portable", because OpenBSD markets themselves > towards security, or based on an independent thought? > > Every BSD has its strong point, but I wish people would elaborate more then > > *grunt*grunt* OpenBSD for security *grunt*grunt* > > > > -- > Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. > billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland Intern, Flooz.com Northwestern '04 stuyman@confusion.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 22:13:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0269A37B422; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:11:47 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8K5Che17776; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:12:42 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Laurence Berland Cc: Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Message-ID: <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net>; from stuyman@confusion.net on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:27:50PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:27:50PM -0500, Laurence Berland wrote: > I think people tend to assume that because... [snip] > they have done the big code audit, that they are more secure. [snip] > I don't think OpenBSD has much over FreeBSD in terms of quality > of code, but the perception sort of persists because they are always > pushing themselves as security. > > Am I crazy? No, you are not. You partially answered your own question. OpenBSD is considered more secure because, (a) "They have done the big code audit." (You got that one.) (b) They ship a secure default. Not FreeBSD, nor any other open source OS I am aware of, has done (a). FreeBSD sacrifices (b) for having some stuff work "out of the box." I use FreeBSD and it cannot be said FreeBSD is not one of the more secure OSes out there (with the standard caveat, "when properly configured"), but I think OpenBSD has every right to make the claims they do. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 19 22:19: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BAA37B424; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DAE651C6B; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:18:59 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Laurence Berland , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Message-ID: <20000920011859.V66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com>; from cjclark@reflexnet.net on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:12:42PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:12:42PM -0700, Crist J . Clark wrote: > I use FreeBSD and it cannot be said FreeBSD is not one of the more > secure OSes out there (with the standard caveat, "when properly > configured"), but I think OpenBSD has every right to make the claims > they do. I never questioned the right to make the claims (they've earned it), but I just wondered if people just read what everyone else says about each BSD and accepts as the gospel truth or actually uses this old crusty tool called research. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 1: 0:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC92F37B422; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25611; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:00:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Sep 2000 10:00:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Crist J . Clark"'s message of "Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:12:42 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Crist J . Clark" writes: > No, you are not. You partially answered your own question. OpenBSD is > considered more secure because, > > (a) "They have done the big code audit." (You got that one.) > (b) They ship a secure default. > > Not FreeBSD, nor any other open source OS I am aware of, has done > (a). FreeBSD sacrifices (b) for having some stuff work "out of the > box." FreeBSD has done a lot more of (a) than you might think, and guess what, Our People found some holes Their People hadn't spotted. So a code audit is better than no code audit, but it's not a silver bullet. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 1:10:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C9D37B423; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8K89q699019; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:09:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message from "Crist J . Clark" of "Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:12:42 PDT." <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:09:52 -0700 Message-ID: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > (a) "They have done the big code audit." (You got that one.) > (b) They ship a secure default. > > Not FreeBSD, nor any other open source OS I am aware of, has done > (a). FreeBSD sacrifices (b) for having some stuff work "out of the > box." I'd appreciate more specifics. I think (a) is largely a perceptual advantage since software never stands still and I have to wonder just how much of a "rolling audit" any project of a largely voluntary nature can consistently manage. As for (b), I think FreeBSD has already made some very sensible decisions there and would very much appreciate knowing just where you think it's failed to do so, using -current as a baseline if possible since there's not much point in arguing about default security policies which have already been changed. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 4:29: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE9737B422; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 04:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA810694; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:28:54 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000920011859.V66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20000920011859.V66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:28:57 -0400 To: Bill Fumerola , cjclark@alum.mit.edu From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:18 AM -0400 9/20/00, Bill Fumerola wrote: >On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:12:42PM -0700, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > I use FreeBSD and it cannot be said FreeBSD is not one of the > > more secure OSes out there (with the standard caveat, "when > > properly configured"), but I think OpenBSD has every right to > > make the claims they do. > >I never questioned the right to make the claims (they've earned >it), but I just wondered if people just read what everyone else >says about each BSD and accepts as the gospel truth or actually >uses this old crusty tool called research. Based on my quick overview of both, OpenBSD does seem better for some things, and I'd loosely define those things as "security". FreeBSD has only been serious about security audits for a short time, and for part of that auditing, the first step is usually "Let's see what OpenBSD has done in this component". That happens much more than "Let's see what Microsoft has done in this area for security", or "Let's see what Linux has done for security". If WE are using OpenBSD as a reference for code-auditing, it seems silly to get our backs up in the air when someone else references OpenBSD as "most secure". Furthermore, OpenBSD does decide to "button down" it's default configuration more than FreeBSD does. That is it's choice, and for some people that choice is reassuring. One of the guys on the staff here wanted to use "some decent unix" for doing DHCP & DNS, and for his purposes OpenBSD's "button down" attitude was and is reassuring. He is not a die-hard unix wizard, and he does not want these machines broken into because "he forgot" to disable some stupid service he does not need, but did not realize he does not need. If it was not for his confidence in OpenBSD on that issue, we might still be running WinNT for DHCP, and trying to figure out how to use WinNT for DNS too (shudder). While I have no concerns about FreeBSD's security, I do think there will always be a place for OpenBSD's focus. I think it does all of us BSD's good to have someone in our group who is "competing" on security issues, and thus keeping all of us focused on that. Without that, we will focus on Microsoft, and that path will be an endless stream of adding features without any concern for security issues. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 4:38:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F0337B423 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 04:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA04948; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:38:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:38:41 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Brett Taylor Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: nice comments about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000920073841.A4921@blackhelicopters.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from brett@peloton.runet.edu on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 05:36:24PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, FreeBSD has supported ELF for quite some time. Perhaps someone who uses this software, and is familiar with it, could contact them and ask them to correct their entry? If someone with a clue can't, I'll do it. They might have to recompile their code for a newer FreeBSD, but that's it. IIRC, code for FreeBSD 2.x compiles on 4.x? ==ml (PS: ObAdvocacy: That's cool. We rock. Hard.) On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 05:36:24PM -0400, Brett Taylor wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > o FreeBSD [dist: fbsd arch: freebsd] > > Install and use the freebsd binaries. You might be able to run the linux > binaries in compatibility mode (FreeBSD can run some Linux binaries), but > currently FreeBSD does not support ELF. FreeBSD is arguably the most > solid, workstation class PC operating system currently available. Very > popular for servers. May be a better multiprocess system than Linux but > Linux may be a better single user system. More stable than Linux and > avoids the similar-but-different multiple distributions problem which > plagues Linux, but Linux is more popular and supports a wider range of > hardware and add-on software (although the difference is getting pretty > small). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 5:15: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from radon.gryphonsoft.com (mcut-b-167.resnet.purdue.edu [128.211.209.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EC037B422 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by radon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D81351950; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:11:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:11:09 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Michael Lucas Cc: Brett Taylor , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: nice comments about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000920071109.H35550@radon.gryphonsoft.com> Reply-To: Will Andrews Mail-Followup-To: Will Andrews , Michael Lucas , Brett Taylor , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000920073841.A4921@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000920073841.A4921@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 07:38:41AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 07:38:41AM -0400, Michael Lucas wrote: > FreeBSD has supported ELF for quite some time. Perhaps someone who > uses this software, and is familiar with it, could contact them and > ask them to correct their entry? If someone with a clue can't, I'll > do it. Obviously, whoever wrote that commentary on FreeBSD hadn't done his/her research on it. We have supported ELF for over 2 years, counting 3.0-CURRENT. Hell, I remember running a 3.0-SNAP in July 1998... and it did some neat ELF tricks. One of my pet peeves has always been people who didn't bother to do their research and always assumed FreeBSD wasn't nearly as much of a moving target as Linux is. *mutter, growl* ;-( > They might have to recompile their code for a newer FreeBSD, but > that's it. IIRC, code for FreeBSD 2.x compiles on 4.x? It does? Heh.. didn't think there was that much backwards compatibility as far as compile support, but binary support, sure. :-) > (PS: ObAdvocacy: That's cool. We rock. Hard.) Yeah, we rock lots of things fierce. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+ a--- C++ UB++++$ P+ L- E--- W+ N-- !o ?K w--- O- M+ V- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI+++ D+ G++ e>++++ h! r- y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 5:26: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B09137B43F; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8KCPuD29125; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:25:56 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Wes Peters Cc: Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000920052556.L9141@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net> <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com> <20000919001440.C9141@fw.wintelcom.net> <39C826F4.4D38725@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <39C826F4.4D38725@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 08:54:44PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Wes Peters [000919 19:45] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > * Terry Lambert [000918 22:07] wrote: > > > > > > See the part about "mentioning features or use of this software"? > > > > > > If you don't mention "Now with BSD technology!" or "Includes TCP/IP!", > > > then you don't have to say squat in the advertising materials. > > > > You're correct, however it'd be pretty hard to sell a BSD based > > product any other way. > > Sun managed it for 10 years or so. That doesn't make it right. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 6: 0:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38F437B424 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 06:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24005; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:00:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:00:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Michael Lucas Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: nice comments about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000920073841.A4921@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi guys, > FreeBSD has supported ELF for quite some time. I saw this right after I posted it... > Perhaps someone who uses this software, and is familiar with it, could > contact them and ask them to correct their entry? If someone with a > clue can't, I'll do it. I will shortly be using it (our new observatory is just coming online). > They might have to recompile their code for a newer FreeBSD, but > that's it. IIRC, code for FreeBSD 2.x compiles on 4.x? The binary releases are for 3.3 I believe. I am going to recompile the source for 4.1 so maybe I can get them to move on too. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 6:58:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7077637B42C for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 06:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13ba0D-0000Js-00; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:52:53 -0600 Message-ID: <39C82685.58FAD52F@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:52:53 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interesting advocacy opportunity/challenge References: <200009190454.VAA11960@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > I just bought a laptop the other day (a Sony Vaio, if anyone > care; if you need to know how to run X on a PCG-XG29, I can > now tell you). > > I also bought a dongle-less Linksys PCMCIA 10/100 ethernet > adapter (the PC-CARD eject button is a close fit, but it > works in the top slot). > > The interesting thing about this is that the first thing I > see when I open the Linksys box is a "TurboLinux Workstation > 6.0 Lite" CDROM. I got one of those in my Belkin OmniCube KVM switch today. I had the same idea. Anybody got a few hundred thousand dollars worth of CD-ROM #1 they want to donate somewhere? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 6:58:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB52137B43C; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 06:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13ba20-0000Jv-00; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:54:44 -0600 Message-ID: <39C826F4.4D38725@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:54:44 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS References: <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net> <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com> <20000919001440.C9141@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Terry Lambert [000918 22:07] wrote: > > > > See the part about "mentioning features or use of this software"? > > > > If you don't mention "Now with BSD technology!" or "Includes TCP/IP!", > > then you don't have to say squat in the advertising materials. > > You're correct, however it'd be pretty hard to sell a BSD based > product any other way. Sun managed it for 10 years or so. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 12:54:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A0D37B423; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:53:03 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8KJs5D23187; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:05 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Message-ID: <20000920125405.D22272@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:09:52AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:09:52AM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > (a) "They have done the big code audit." (You got that one.) > > (b) They ship a secure default. > > > > Not FreeBSD, nor any other open source OS I am aware of, has done > > (a). FreeBSD sacrifices (b) for having some stuff work "out of the > > box." > > I'd appreciate more specifics. I think (a) is largely a perceptual > advantage since software never stands still and I have to wonder just > how much of a "rolling audit" any project of a largely voluntary > nature can consistently manage. Since FreeBSD and OpenBSD share any "rolling audit" issues, it cannot be used as a factor to compare them. But OpenBSD went back and did the line-by-line audit of legacy code. Yes, bugs got past them, but a real audit is done by people (despite what some say about Theo) and people are going to miss some of them. And yes, I can only take their word for it. FreeBSD has made significant efforts to audit security-related code, but there is no denying that it has not has been as comprehensive as the OpenBSD effort or that it has had the same priority level. Again, FreeBSD is a darn secure system (relatively). In fact, the base OS /may/ be pretty much just as secure as OpenBSD. But one needs an audit to backup any such claim, and OpenBSD is the one that has the audit. Without an audit one has no way to really compare the security except for gut feel and notoriously unreliable exploit statistics. If I am behind on my facts (I thought FreeBSD had a security audit webpage, but I cannot find it now) or have been mislead, please let me know. > As for (b), I think FreeBSD has > already made some very sensible decisions there and would very much > appreciate knowing just where you think it's failed to do so, using > -current as a baseline if possible since there's not much point in > arguing about default security policies which have already been > changed. From a review of /etc/defaults/rc.conf, 5.0-CURRENT has turned off the three biggies that I didn't like the default YES, inetd_enable="NO" sendmail_enable="NO" portmap_enable="NO" But I assume /stand/sysinstall will ask if these should be turned on. This is good. One thing that, IMHO, should still be changed. Everything in /etc/inetd.conf should be turned off, i.e. commented out. Yes, in spite of the fact inetd is not on by default, you still should need to explicitly turn on each service inetd runs. And if one were to get really paraniod (and it is my job to be these days), /proc should not be put in a sysinstall generated fstab without warning the user due to its checkered security history (and it may just give out a little too much info to the mortal user). But I have not been able to examine 5.0-CURRENT enough to see how this is handled. It may do this for all I know. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 16: 4:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magus.users.xmission.com (magus.users.xmission.com [204.228.152.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1F237B43E for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from magus@localhost) by magus.users.xmission.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19863 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:07:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from magus) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:07:34 -0600 From: Anthony Chavez To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RMS Message-ID: <20000920170734.C19793@magus.users.xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG All right ph0lx, the moment you've been waiting for. :-) Before I left last night, I realized that I don't know USU (or Logan for that matter) very well. I thought I'd chance it anyway, but when I got there, I couldn't find anywhere to park ~at~all~. It reminded me of my college days. :-) I finally found a spot, but alas it was too late. It was all over by the time I found the place. Oh well, it was only RMS. :-) Anthony -- magus@xmission.com http://wwp.icq.com/17901391 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Give me Slack, or give me food (or kill me). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 19:46: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4261637B423 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17885 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2000 02:46:20 -0000 Received: from du04.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.4]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Sep 2000 02:46:20 -0000 Message-ID: <39C9765B.F6E6F84F@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:45:47 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Mark Ovens , Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS References: <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > Legally, there is an argument that, on a purely constructionist > basis, one can not enforce a "hold harmless" clause (clause 2 of > the two clause license) without also enforcing a claim credit > clause. The argument is based on the idea of someone taking your > work, adding buggy code to it, selling it, and then causing harm > as a result. The original author still suffers the percentage > of liabilty relative to their proportion of the authorship, even > if their code was not, itself, buggy; this as a result of their > contributory negligence in making the source code available. It seems to me that if making source code available is negligence, making source code available and demanding credit for it is still negligence. Hold harmless clauses do not require publication to be effective. They also do not affect either party's liability to third parties. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 20 22: 0:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A116E37B423; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00141; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:57:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAUOaWE4; Wed Sep 20 21:55:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27323; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:58:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009210458.VAA27323@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: RWS To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 04:58:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), marko@FreeBSD.ORG (Mark Ovens), relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie (Mike Doyle), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <39C9765B.F6E6F84F@mail.ptd.net> from "Thomas M. Sommers" at Sep 20, 2000 10:45:47 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It seems to me that if making source code available is negligence, > making source code available and demanding credit for it is still > negligence. Hold harmless clauses do not require publication to be > effective. They also do not affect either party's liability to third > parties. In the second case, you were diligent in ensuring the origin of the code was known. Consider a plaintif's claim of "I would never have used that code if I had known it originated at BobCo!". Hold Harmless clauses require an agremenet between the licensor and licensee to be effective. Not even Microsoft is willing to publish software with undisclosed license terms; the licensee must always be made aware of the licensing arrangement. In this case, then, we have an implied "claim credit" clause, even for GPL'ed code, which eschews "claim credit" clauses as being somehow evil and despised. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 0:42:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903A637B423; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31918; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:42:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? References: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20000920125405.D22272@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Sep 2000 09:42:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Crist J . Clark"'s message of "Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:54:05 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Crist J . Clark" writes: > From a review of /etc/defaults/rc.conf, 5.0-CURRENT has turned off the > three biggies that I didn't like the default YES, > > inetd_enable="NO" > sendmail_enable="NO" > portmap_enable="NO" > > But I assume /stand/sysinstall will ask if these should be turned on. > This is good. Actually, IIRC, sysinstall turns them on by default for POLA reasons. But at least now you can see from your rc.conf that they're on. > And if one were to get really paraniod (and it is my job to be these > days), /proc should not be put in a sysinstall generated fstab without > warning the user due to its checkered security history /proc should be fine now. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 2:56: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1738B37B424; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 02:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA24559; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 02:56:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAikaO6V; Thu Sep 21 02:55:59 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA09465; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 02:55:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009210955.CAA09465@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD Magazine To: rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG (Robert Watson) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:55:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd@planet.nl (Marc Veldman), Jacob.Ludington@ed.state.ia.us (Ludington Jacob), freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG ('freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'), advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Robert Watson" at Sep 16, 2000 09:48:52 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I want something on paper. While e-mail and the web are cool, they are > far from persistent. I can't read a file written ten years ago in the > standard word processing tool of the day. Any articles I read and enjoyed > on any commercial or main-stream electronic services are now long gone. I > have now assurance that www.daemonnews.org is going to work in ten years > time when I want to reference a technical article there in a paper I > write. And printers don't cut it -- I have enough leaf-litter of unsorted > and un-indexed papers lying around already. > > I'd happily pay the going rate for magazines to get a nicely bound > twice to three times as thick Daemon News. At one point, Jordan was > spitting out FreeBSD newsletters on paper -- throw that stuff in also, > maybe reviews of recent major commits on various platform source trees > (sort of like the new stuff page on the NetBSD web site) so people (users, > developers) from various projects can keep up-to-date. The problem with a print version is the same problem with most e-commerce. People want the electronic version, and there's no way to bill for an electronic version easily; it takes a major amount of effort to set up a billing system. Then there is the risk of non-publication, and the need to refund. I think that per-issue billing is out of the question entirely; last time I checked, doing that type of thing via credit card (that's the only realistic way to do it) is too expensive, both in terms of transaction fees for the publisher, and initial setup for the publisher. An electronic newsletter that could be subscribed to in a printed form at a potentially large margin vs. cost would probably be best. This would let the "early adopters" take the hard copy, and pay the overhead for doing the initial low volume, with the costs coming down as the volumes went up. It certainly worked for Motorola with cell phones, and it's how Linux Journal started. So, as a tentaive shot: 1) A monthly print copy of Daemon News 2) Subscription rate based on print costs and non-bulk publication costs 3) A clause that non-publication does not result in a refund, so long as 3 or more issues have been published in a 12 month period Frankly, we collected user group fees at our Amiga user group back in the mid 80's, and we published a monthly news letter just from this small fund. We eventually had several local advertisers (people who sold Amigas or Amiga software, printers, disks, and the like) , and were able to repurpose the funds. This was with a user group of 45 or so people. As an alternate approach to the 3 steps above, you could do the same thing with a sufficiently large BSD user group: 1) Have optional membership fees 2) Strongly encourage fee payment (BayLISA does this now: fee payment is mildly mandatory after attending 2 meetings, and you can't sit on the board or hold an elected office unless you are paid up, but you can pay up after being elected and not declining to serve) 3) Fund a newsletter "just for the group" 4) Offer subscriptions to the local user group news letter, via the web, for a membership share + postage premium (e.g. if yearly dues were $24.00, then the news letter could be offered for $2.00 + postage per issue -- probably a lot less, if the entirety of the fees did not end up going to publication) 5) Branch out to a larger publication, as funding and readership goes up There's litterally dozens of viable variations on either of these approaches. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 4:51:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from slkcpop5.slkc.uswest.net (slkcpop5.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EE37B37B42C for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 04:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2011 invoked by alias); 21 Sep 2000 11:51:49 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 1996 invoked by uid 0); 21 Sep 2000 11:51:48 -0000 Received: from badialup189.slkc.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (63.225.236.189) by slkcpop5.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 21 Sep 2000 11:51:48 -0000 Message-ID: <39C9F55E.E3D6917D@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 05:47:42 -0600 From: Joe Warner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Just Imagine.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The other day, I was thinking about how big companies like IBM, have extended and embraced Linux. Now, most of you will probably shudder and shake your heads at the next thought but I also wondered what things would be like if Microsoft suddenly tried to do the same thing for the BSD community. I wonder if there's a remote possibility that something like that could happen. I also wonder what the reaction of the BSD community would be like. Would M$ be welcomed or would they get the door slammed in their face. In a way, hasn't Apple done the same thing by integrating the BSD kernel into the new Mac OS X? I guess the main question is, would the BSD community benefit from big corporate backing? If so or not, why? Joe -- FreeBSD = The Power to Serve ..Simply put = FreeBSD Rocks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 8:56:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www.menzor.dk (menzor.org [195.249.147.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5100337B43E for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sos (userhost.mdes.dk [130.228.127.200]) by www.menzor.dk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA20284 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:07:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@seeberg.dk) Message-ID: <015e01c023ed$048350f0$deff58c1@sos> From: "Morten Seeberg" To: Subject: Re: Just Imagine.. Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:57:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don´t think M$ would ever do this, they´re doing just fine right now, if you look at the growth of NT :) And NT is actually getting better all the time. Whether BSD would benefit from a large corporate backing, hard to say, one should always be carefull about not getting to BIG :) I think the best thing would be if IBM, Compaq, HP and Dell would at least acknowledge the fact the FreeBSD is here to stay, and that it´s worth spending some R&D time on, so that we could get some vendor support for their hardware and other products. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /\/\orten $eeberg, Systems Consultant @ Merkantildata - Enterprise Solutions #echo 'System Administrators suck :)' > /dev/console To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 9:24:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD0437B42C for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13c1BJ-0002mB-00; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:54:09 +0200 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:54:08 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Anthony Chavez Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RMS Message-ID: <20000921095408.A10631@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000920170734.C19793@magus.users.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000920170734.C19793@magus.users.xmission.com>; from magus@magus.users.xmission.com on Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 05:07:34PM -0600 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed 2000-09-20 (17:07), Anthony Chavez wrote: > All right ph0lx, the moment you've been waiting for. :-) > > I finally found a spot, but alas it was too late. It was all over by > the time I found the place. You tease! Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 10:39:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A8337B423; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25176; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:38:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000921113652.053d4960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:38:51 -0600 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Jordan Hubbard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? Cc: Laurence Berland , Bill Fumerola , clefevre@citeweb.net, Akbar , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000920125405.D22272@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> References: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:54 PM 9/20/2000, Crist J . Clark wrote: >>From a review of /etc/defaults/rc.conf, 5.0-CURRENT has turned off the >three biggies that I didn't like the default YES, > > inetd_enable="NO" > sendmail_enable="NO" > portmap_enable="NO" But rc.conf turns them on! >But I assume /stand/sysinstall will ask if these should be turned on. >This is good. It still leaves all of these on WITHOUT ASKING. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 11: 0:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B1337B449; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA40CE; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:03:00 -0700 Message-ID: <39CA4C16.FFB05634@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:57:42 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Warner Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just Imagine.. References: <39C9F55E.E3D6917D@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe Warner wrote: > I guess the main question is, would the BSD community benefit from big > corporate > backing? If so or not, why? I would guess it comes down to whose doing the backing. IBM for Linux was a good deal because IBM has always been a service business, with their hardware and software systems merely tools for their service. They're perfectly content to "use" open source software instead of "taking" it. From what I've heard, they are exemplary members of the Apache Group. A Microsoft, on the other hand, views partners as competitors. They would not be content with funding FreeBSD and getting no lock on something in return. I would see them doing it only as a way to get into the Unix market, then proceeding to embrace/extend Unix. To me, the size or wealth of the corporations are meaningless. IBM is still bigger than Microsoft. Rather, it's their "world view". Some corporations see competitors, partners, allies, and customers. Others just see competitors. Some see %100 market share as an unrealistic impossibility, while others see it as their sole mission. It's whether you're out to sell your product or whether you're out to see your competitor fail. So, depending on whose doing the backing, I would say yes. I would have no problem with Apple funding BSD to keep their Darwin base pumping along. But I would be very leery of Microsoft. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 12: 6:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3CB337B446; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13cBer-0004l9-00; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:05:21 +0200 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:05:21 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Jordan Hubbard , Laurence Berland , security@FreeBSD.org Subject: sysinstall DOESN'T ASK, dangerous defaults! (Was: Re: wats so special about freeBSD?) Message-ID: <20000921210521.A17973@mithrandr.moria.org> Reply-To: nbm@mithrandr.moria.org, security@FreeBSD.org References: <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <99016.969437392@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20000920125405.D22272@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000921113652.053d4960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000921113652.053d4960@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 11:38:51AM -0600 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ Cc trimmed, advocacy,chat -> security ] On Thu 2000-09-21 (11:38), Brett Glass wrote: > >>From a review of /etc/defaults/rc.conf, 5.0-CURRENT has turned off the > >three biggies that I didn't like the default YES, > > > > inetd_enable="NO" > > sendmail_enable="NO" > > portmap_enable="NO" > > But rc.conf turns them on! > > >But I assume /stand/sysinstall will ask if these should be turned on. > >This is good. > > It still leaves all of these on WITHOUT ASKING. I have an idea. Why don't you submit a patch that'll make sysinstall ask about them, instead of using those scary capital letters and exclamation marks that make it sound like you're incredibly shocked over all this, on inappropriate mailing lists? Or, you could ask on one of the mailing lists if someone is willing to do the work for you, if you're unable to. Or maybe bring it to light on one of the appropriate mailing lists? Don't take this personally - it just seemed incredibly ironic at the time. Since we're here - does anyone feel up to writing a patch to make these questions instead, and I'll review them before passing it on to Jordan. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 14:24:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EA037B422; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23685; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:21:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAJjaabU; Thu Sep 21 14:21:36 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17535; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:24:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009212124.OAA17535@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Just Imagine.. To: jswarner@uswest.net (Joe Warner) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:24:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <39C9F55E.E3D6917D@uswest.net> from "Joe Warner" at Sep 21, 2000 05:47:42 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I guess the main question is, would the BSD community benefit from big > corporate backing? If so or not, why? Yes, but only by a hardware company. A software company is a competitor. See the NT vs. VMS vs. Ultrix/DEC UNIX/TRU64 history. In particular, note the extra cost associated with the SRM, which was pretty much nothing more than protectionism of the NT and VMS side of things, for internal political resons having nothing to do with anything other than a supression of internal competition ("all the oars pulling in the same [wrong] direction"). IBM's "backing" of Linux at this point is mostly marketing, not integration into core products, due to intellectual property dillution fears. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 15:58: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F20F37B423; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.198.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id SAA10451; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:57:49 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from ts001d08.mer-id.concentric.net (ts001d08.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.20]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id SAA14093; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:55:32 -0600 (MDT) From: ML Duke To: David Johnson Cc: Joe Warner , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just Imagine.. In-Reply-To: <39CA4C16.FFB05634@acuson.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Microsoft? "embrace/extend Unix"??? More likely, they would attempt to turn it into "windows 9000, 'the _new_ and _IMPROVED_' Unix". Then we would have available a Unix OS that would mis-manage the disk, lock up, crash/burn and the public would become Unix "aware". And, since it (the new improved OS) would operate "normally," the public would now embrace Unix for the first time and they would _love_ it--cause bill & the boys in Redmond say they should. New applications would be written: TeX would become MsX and run on the new Unix only and have one typeface, and would only require reinstallation once per 100 page manuscript--an "awesome" breakthrough. X would become M and have clouds in the "sky". Pine would become ... well, Pine would have to go. Corel nor Wordstar would work, Netscape would have to burn and no alternative but to scrap vi.... and it would become miwordpad ... with a GUI ... grep could be msrepfind ... and .... (Sorry, couldn't help myself). ML Duke > A Microsoft, on the other hand, views partners as competitors. They > would not be content with funding FreeBSD and getting no lock on > something in return. I would see them doing it only as a way to get into > the Unix market, then proceeding to embrace/extend Unix. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 21 22:28:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB6537B422; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 22:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13cLX6-000060-00; Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:38:00 -0600 Message-ID: <39CAF037.185454F@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:38:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , Mike Doyle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS References: <20000918102322.A15156@fw.wintelcom.net> <200009190507.WAA12169@usr02.primenet.com> <20000919001440.C9141@fw.wintelcom.net> <39C826F4.4D38725@softweyr.com> <20000920052556.L9141@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Wes Peters [000919 19:45] wrote: > > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > > * Terry Lambert [000918 22:07] wrote: > > > > > > > > See the part about "mentioning features or use of this software"? > > > > > > > > If you don't mention "Now with BSD technology!" or "Includes TCP/IP!", > > > > then you don't have to say squat in the advertising materials. > > > > > > You're correct, however it'd be pretty hard to sell a BSD based > > > product any other way. > > > > Sun managed it for 10 years or so. > > That doesn't make it right. It does if you play the game. Sun never advertised "Now with BSD TCP/IP" or anything else that would lead you to believe it was based on work done at the University of California. They just made sure everyone knew it through other channels. This is the #1 reason why Stallman's argument was such a red herring. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 22 6:34:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from laguna.tiscalinet.it (laguna.tiscalinet.it [195.130.224.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB57037B424 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lenstra (62.11.104.206) by laguna.tiscalinet.it; 22 Sep 2000 15:34:13 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20000922153528.008dbd20@pop.tiscalinet.it> X-Sender: lenstra@pop.tiscalinet.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:35:28 +0200 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Lorenzo Allegrucci Subject: Urban legend? (was: Just imagine..) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is it true that m$ included the TCP/IP stack of FreeBSD in w2k? If so m$ has already "embraced & extended" unix :-( -- Lorenzo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 22 7: 4:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BAF37B422 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17531; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:04:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:04:50 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Lorenzo Allegrucci Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Urban legend? (was: Just imagine..) Message-ID: <20000922100450.A17515@blackhelicopters.org> References: <3.0.1.32.20000922153528.008dbd20@pop.tiscalinet.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000922153528.008dbd20@pop.tiscalinet.it>; from lenstra@tiscalinet.it on Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 03:35:28PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Somewhat. Early betas of Win2k identified themselves as "NetBSD" in OS fingerprinting tests. However, that's what the BSD license is for. If MS take *more* of our IP stack, a lot of pain and misery would be alleviated for a lot of people. On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 03:35:28PM +0200, Lorenzo Allegrucci wrote: > > Is it true that m$ included the TCP/IP stack of FreeBSD in w2k? > If so m$ has already "embraced & extended" unix :-( > > -- > Lorenzo > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 22 9:50:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6AB37B422 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.253.85.127]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000922165041.SPRJ13676.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:50:41 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8MGoMY01892; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:50:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:50:17 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Michael Lucas Cc: Lorenzo Allegrucci , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Urban legend? (was: Just imagine..) Message-ID: <20000922175017.B258@parish> References: <3.0.1.32.20000922153528.008dbd20@pop.tiscalinet.it> <20000922100450.A17515@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000922100450.A17515@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 10:04:50AM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 10:04:50AM -0400, Michael Lucas wrote: > Somewhat. Early betas of Win2k identified themselves as "NetBSD" in > OS fingerprinting tests. > > However, that's what the BSD license is for. If MS take *more* of our > IP stack, a lot of pain and misery would be alleviated for a lot of > people. > Not only Win2K, NT as well: $ cd /ntfs/WINNT/system32 $ for i in `ls RSH.EXE FTP.EXE FINGER.EXE RCP.EXE NSLOOKUP.EXE` > do > echo $i > strings $i | grep Calif > done FINGER.EXE @(#) Copyright (c) 1980 The Regents of the University of California. FTP.EXE @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. NSLOOKUP.EXE @(#) Copyright (c) 1985,1989 Regents of the University of California. RCP.EXE @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. RSH.EXE @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. $ > On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 03:35:28PM +0200, Lorenzo Allegrucci wrote: > > > > Is it true that m$ included the TCP/IP stack of FreeBSD in w2k? > > If so m$ has already "embraced & extended" unix :-( > > > > -- > > Lorenzo > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > -- > Michael Lucas > mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 22 23:25:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4D937B43C; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13chYZ-0000RB-00; Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:08:59 -0600 Message-ID: <39CC3AEB.3D768A0E@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:08:59 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wats so special about freeBSD? References: <89731E9AF92BD411869200D0B71BB4DC0FC297@ASERVER> <200009191942.e8JJgMc03338@gits.dyndns.org> <20000920001652.U66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> <39C83CC6.9BCD1F32@confusion.net> <20000919221242.O367@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20000920011859.V66839@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:12:42PM -0700, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > I use FreeBSD and it cannot be said FreeBSD is not one of the more > > secure OSes out there (with the standard caveat, "when properly > > configured"), but I think OpenBSD has every right to make the claims > > they do. > > I never questioned the right to make the claims (they've earned it), but > I just wondered if people just read what everyone else says about each > BSD and accepts as the gospel truth or actually uses this old crusty > tool called research. Or perhaps this crusty old tool called using each of them daily? FreeBSD does have a number of advantages over OpenBSD. Some of them the OpenBSD developers would perhaps shrug off as rock-polishing, but the hours spent developing the FreeBSD build system has made it much more workable than what OpenBSD has. The much larger ports collection, despite the ease of moving FreeBSD ports to OpenBSD, shows how much bigger the group of people working on FreeBSD is. The FreeBSD installation is head and shoulders over OpenBSD or NetBSD, at least as of 1.4.2. OTOH, if you want to install a secure system and don't know what you're doing, OpenBSD installs a much more secure configuration out of the box. The afterboot(8) man page helps a neophyte administrator figure out what they might want to do to continue securing their system. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message