From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 30 7: 4:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gateh.kw.bbc.co.uk (unknown [132.185.132.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8083537B479 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 07:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from w1bhxi02.radio.bbc.co.uk (w1bhxi02.radio.bbc.co.uk [132.185.40.147]) by gateh.kw.bbc.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01637 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:04:34 GMT Received: from w1bhxi01.radio.bbc.co.uk (unverified) by w1bhxi02.radio.bbc.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:04:20 +0000 Received: by w1bhxi01.radio.bbc.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:04:20 -0000 Message-Id: <6F99E54D359CD3119FAF0001FA7ED95001B16905@w12wcedxu02.wc.bbc.co.uk> From: Will Green-Education To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Subject: Subscribe Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:04:09 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Subscribe $os =~ s/windows/bsd/gsi; This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC, unless specifically stated. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 30 11:10:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55EDA37B4D7; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 13px2V-0003zW-00; Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:18:39 +0000 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:18:39 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-users@uk.freebsd.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, ApacheCon, and horns aplenty Message-ID: <20001029181839.Q4137@hand.dotat.at> References: <20001027114650.A1717@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20001027060606.W28123@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001027060606.W28123@fw.wintelcom.net> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >What percentage of the audiance/conferece were wearing the horns? Just >wonderdering how much of a presense we had. Overwhelming compared to Linux. One crap Linux stand, two BSD stands (the other being OpenBSD). Douglas Adams did a signing after his talk, and in addition to books he signed an OpenBSD/Blowfish "So long, and thanks for all the passwords" t-shirt. Tony. -- en oeccget g mtcaa f.a.n.finch v spdlkishrhtewe y dot@dotat.at eatp o v eiti i d. fanf@covalent.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 0: 4:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from isy.liu.se (isy.liu.se [130.236.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC47137B4C5 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lagrange.isy.liu.se (lagrange.isy.liu.se [130.236.49.127]) by isy.liu.se (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id eA184Rn29526 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:04:27 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 09:04:26 +0100 (CET) From: Micke Josefsson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On freebsd-questions there is now a thread 'Beginners with bsd'. As some of it has a bearing on advocacy and I have recent experience of this perhaps you will be interested. The thread started off with a newcomer asking whether FreeBSD is suitable for a beginner. Specially this particular beginner wondered if tools for typical MS Office chores existed. The answers, this far, has pointed out the clear, thorough documentation of FreeBSD, as a good thing for newbies. Other answers include congratulations for trying it out and lots of encouraging voices. The presence of StarOffice and WordPerfect as alternatives to MS Office has also been mentioned. But some people recommended a Linux dist (notably Storm or SuSe) as the easy way out. And even went as far as saying that FreeBSD is not for the faint of heart. Finally Igor Roboul made this note: "But, generally, if I talk about friends, it is better install something, for which you have "live person near you" :-)" This last sentence had me triggered to write a reply due to my recent experience: <--Slightly trimmed quoted from freebsd-questions --> Exactly my point of view in another thread some time ago. What a newbie needs best is someone to put his/her questions to. If you are into BSD then recommend BSD, if you are into Linux then recommend the same dist as you use yourself. It can be very annoying for a newbie to see how helpless his computer literate friend is with an OS he is not used to. Apart from that I'd recommend FreeBSD before anything else. Recently I had the opportunity to introduce a guest professor to FreeBSD. She had really no computer training from the sysadmins view, but was very keen to learn. So we spent some time partitioning disks, discussing the pros and cons of partition sizes and even opened up an old disk drive for fun. All this she learned a lot from. But when it came to do the actual installation of FreeBSD the barrage of questions was to much for her in the end. I made a trial installation session with her and then she tried at least three times to do it herself, but failed to answer the correct thing on just one or two questions, with a non-working system as a result. A co-worker made her try RedHat 6.2, it installed as a breeze and actually also setup the correct X-server for her. I have pointed out to her that RedHat puts more stuff on the drive than one (I anyway) would want, but at the end of the day, disk space is ubiquitus and cheap. And the pleasure of having got the system up and running gives her better feedback, than the FreeBSD sysinstall does. Personally I really, really like the port/packages device and also, being a minimalist, I like to have a small system first and then extend it with the programs *I* want to be there, not what anyone else think I should be using. But then I have used computers since my Sinclair ZX80. The guest professor had a user's perspective not the root's, and used to MS Windows program. All in all. The problem seems to have been sysinstall here. Or anyway the program to perform the initial installation. Imagine that sysinstall is used for post-install configuration only or installation for the advanced user then another couple of boot-diskettes could be used to a more user friendly installation interface (and better looking, specially after setting my locale:) for newcomers or any 'generic' user. Personally I do not like the idea of a generic user, but some people, specially the ones just trying FreeBSD for the first time or are not that computer savvy might find this handy. We don't want to scare people away from FreeBSD. <-- end of quote Do you have any comments on this? I'd love to hear them. Cheers, /Micke ---------------------------------- Michael Josefsson, MSEE mj@isy.liu.se This message was sent by XFMail running on FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 10:58:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-4.ig.com.br (smtp-4.ig.com.br [200.225.157.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AFBA37B4CF for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24659 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2000 18:57:34 -0000 Received: from 119.2.226.200.in-addr.arpa.ig.com.br (HELO localhost) (200.226.2.119) by smtp-4.ig.com.br with SMTP; 1 Nov 2000 18:57:34 -0000 From: "CallBack" To: "OWC" Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:57:11 -0200 Subject: CALLBACK - Brasil-EUA apenas US$0,24 p/ minuto! Reply-To: owc20996@ig.com.br MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Message-Id: <20001101185806.6AFBA37B4CF@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ECONOMIZE ATÉ 87% EM SUAS LIGAÇÕES INTERNACIONAIS! Cadastre-se com a ONE WORLD COMMUNICATIONS, Empresa líder em redução de Tarifas Telefônicas Internacionais - CallBack. A One World Communications (OWC), fundada em 1994, possui escritórios em 11 países, milhares de associados e é provedor de serviços de longa distância nos Estados Unidos, Rússia, Japão, Alemanha, França, Suécia, Suiça, Nova Zelãndia, Peru, Argentina e Brasil. Veja alguns exemplos de Tarifas desde qualquer localidade do Brasil: US$ TARIFAS/OWC(1) % DE ECONOMIA (2) ESTADOS UNIDOS............ 0,24 64,7% REINO UNIDO............... 0,27 76,9% ALEMANHA/ÁUSTRIA/BÉLGICA DINAMARCA/FRANÇA/HOLANDA NORUEGA/SUÉCIA/SUIÇA...... 0,29 75,2% CANADÁ.................... 0,29 73,4% JAPÃO/AUSTRÁLIA........... 0,29 73,6% HONG KONG/NOVA ZELÂNDIA... 0,29 87,0% CORÉIA DO SUL............. 0,33 85,2% ISRAEL.................... 0,33 71,8% ITÁLIA.................... 0,31 73,5% ESPANHA................... 0,34 63,2% CHILE..................... 0,36 58,5% ARGENTINA (Buenos Aires).. 0,39 60,2% MÉXICO.................... 0,39 64,3% PORTUGAL.................. 0,42 56,7% CHINA..................... 0,36 86,3% PARAGUAI/URUGUAI.......... 0,52 46,9% (1) - Tarifas OWC, por minuto (independente de horário ou consumo), em dólares dos Estados Unidos. (2) - Percentual de economia usando-se a One World. ao invés da Embratel. Tabela não corporativa, elaborada em 01/10/2000, sujeita a alterações. O que é CallBack? A tecnologia callback é uma alternativa eficaz para combater as elevadas tarifas em chamadas internacionais, principalmente em países como o Brasil, onde as mesmas são mantidas elevadas pelas empresas que operam o sistema (Embratel e Intelig). Serviços do tipo "callback" constituem-se, portanto, num excelente meio para você manter seus contatos e negócios internacionais, pagando tarifas substancialmente menores do que as do sistema nacional. Através do callback, suas chamadas internacionais serão redirecionadas via EUA, possibilitando que você desfrute das baixas tarifas americanas. Quem é a One World Communications, Inc.? A One World é uma Companhia Internacional de Marketing Multinível, que permite acesso telefônico à ligações internacionais, com as tarifas mais vantajosas do mercado. Um usuário do sistema OWC pode se beneficiar de descontos extraordinários nas chamadas para o exterior, 24 horas por dia, 7 dias da semana, a qualquer hora do dia ou da noite. Além de telefones fixos, o sistema funciona também desde telefones celulares e pode ser usado para transmissões de voz, dados e fax. Com a tecnologia de CallBack da One World, você pode comunicar-se de qualquer lugar para qualquer lugar do mundo. Todas as comunicações são direcionadas através da rede mundial de Fibra Óptica, segundo os mais altos padrões de qualidade dos EUA. Como utilizar o sistema de CallBack da One World? É muito simples: digite o número que lhe foi designado nos Estados Unidos (código de acesso), deixe que o telefone toque uma vez e depois desligue. Você não paga por essa ligação, pois é uma ligação incompleta. Em cerca de 10 segundos, o computador da One World retornará à sua ligação com uma linha dos Estados Unidos, para que você possa comunicar-se com qualquer parte do mundo. Como ativo o sistema de CallBack da One World? Basta solicitar o Formulário de Cadastro, preencher, imprimir, assinar e enviar via fax. Você estará habilitado em menos de dois dias úteis. Quais são os tipos de ligações que eu posso realizar com o CallBack da One World? Ligações de longa distância, internacionais, ou transmissões via fax ou modem. Quais são as formas de pagamento? Você pode optar pelo sistema de débito automático no cartão de crédito internacional ou efetuar pré-pagamento, em dinheiro. Também há opção de pagamento faturado, para pessoas jurídicas. Quantas linhas telefônicas posso cadastrar? Você pode cadastrar quantas linhas desejar para efetuar suas ligações internacionais, incluindo telefones fixos e/ou celulares, comerciais e/ou residenciais. Quais as taxas adicionais que pagarei pelos serviços da One World? Além de seus gastos mensais com ligações internacionais, será cobrada uma Taxa Administrativa mensal de apenas US$1 (hum dólar) por linha cadastrada. Solicite, agora mesmo, a Tabela de Tarifas completa e o Formulário de Cadastro! Envie um email para: owc2000@globo.com ou LIGUE: Fone: (0xx11) 5594-2856 Cel.: (0xx11) 9272-1433 Estaremos ao seu dispor para maiores esclarecimentos. Cordialmente, Saulo Pires # 30.279.132 ITC* - Consultor Independente em Telecomunicações mailto:owc2000@globo.com (*) Oportunidade de Negócios (Marketing de Rede): Torne-se também um Distribuidor (ITC) One World, em sua cidade, e ganhe ótimas comissões residuais**. Solicite mais informações a respeito! (**) Renda Residual - dinheiro que continua a entrar após o término da atividade que o gerou. Os royalties pagos a músicos e atores por discos e filmes são exemplos de renda residual. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 11:58:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cisco.com (sword.cisco.com [161.44.208.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFD437B479 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sjt-u10.cisco.com (sjt-u10.cisco.com [161.44.214.97]) by cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09904; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:58:51 -0500 (EST) From: Steve Tremblett Received: (sjt@localhost) by sjt-u10.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) id OAA17580; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:58:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200011011958.OAA17580@sjt-u10.cisco.com> Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD To: mj@isy.liu.se (Micke Josefsson) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:58:52 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Micke Josefsson" at Nov 01, 2000 09:04:26 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG +--- Micke Josefsson wrote: | | <--Slightly trimmed quoted from freebsd-questions --> | | Exactly my point of view in another thread some time ago. What a newbie needs | best is someone to put his/her questions to. If you are into BSD then recommend | BSD, if you are into Linux then recommend the same dist as you use yourself. It | can be very annoying for a newbie to see how helpless his computer literate | friend is with an OS he is not used to. | | Apart from that I'd recommend FreeBSD before anything else. Recently I had the | opportunity to introduce a guest professor to FreeBSD. She had really no | computer training from the sysadmins view, but was very keen to learn. So we | spent some time partitioning disks, discussing the pros and cons of partition | sizes and even opened up an old disk drive for fun. All this she learned a lot | from. But when it came to do the actual installation of FreeBSD the barrage of | questions was to much for her in the end. I made a trial installation session | with her and then she tried at least three times to do it herself, but failed to | answer the correct thing on just one or two questions, with a non-working | system as a result. A co-worker made her try RedHat 6.2, it installed as a | breeze and actually also setup the correct X-server for her. | | I have pointed out to her that RedHat puts more stuff on the drive than one (I | anyway) would want, but at the end of the day, disk space is ubiquitus and cheap. | And the pleasure of having got the system up and running gives her better | feedback, than the FreeBSD sysinstall does. | | Personally I really, really like the port/packages device and also, being a | minimalist, I like to have a small system first and then extend it with the | programs *I* want to be there, not what anyone else think I should be using. | | But then I have used computers since my Sinclair ZX80. The guest professor had a | user's perspective not the root's, and used to MS Windows program. | | All in all. The problem seems to have been sysinstall here. Or anyway the | program to perform the initial installation. Imagine that sysinstall is used for | post-install configuration only or installation for the advanced user then | another couple of boot-diskettes could be used to a more user friendly | installation interface (and better looking, specially after setting my locale:) | for newcomers or any 'generic' user. Personally I do not like the idea of a | generic user, but some people, specially the ones just trying FreeBSD for the | first time or are not that computer savvy might find this handy. We don't want | to scare people away from FreeBSD. | | <-- end of quote | | Do you have any comments on this? I'd love to hear them. I agree with everything you said. I think there should be some info available in sysinstall (or whatever replaces it) explaining what is happening in each step, and the relevant terms. My background is mainly Linux with some Sun and DEC, and I found the installation quite difficult my first time through, mainly because all the docs said basically "Here's how to make floppies... now that you have floppies, boot with them and follow the steps onscreen." It was impossible to follow the steps onscreen because the terms were so foreign and were not explained anywhere. The terms I speak of here are the FreeBSDish terms (as opposed to generic UNIX terms like users & groups) that every rookie asks about - slice? distribution? port? package? The context of each step is not explained. To be honest I haven't gotten a decent explanation of slices yet. I try to make an analogy to PC-land partitions, but I've been told that is incorrect. I understand that FreeBSD is a completely different fish from Linux, but realistically, Linux is the big boy in the PC *NIX world, and that means that Linux user's perspective should be considered in the installer. We all know that FreeBSD is great from experience, but to a rookie, the first install is what [s]he will remember. my $0.02 Canadian -- Steve Tremblett Cisco Systems To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 12:12:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from atlrel2.hp.com (atlrel2.hp.com [156.153.255.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66EAD37B479 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hpbs4894.boi.hp.com (hpbs4894.boi.hp.com [15.8.29.120]) by atlrel2.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583721C55 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from warped (warped.boi.hp.com [15.39.100.73]) by hpbs4894.boi.hp.com with SMTP (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.8.6 SMKit7.02) id NAA04945 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:12:27 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <000901c04440$0e49b0c0$4964270f@boi.hp.com> From: "Jason Sheets" To: References: <200011011958.OAA17580@sjt-u10.cisco.com> Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:12:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Disposition-Notification-To: "Jason Sheets" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I recently recommended FreeBSD to a friend who was interested in joining the *NIX world. He had never used either Linux or any other form of *nix but went ahead and bought the set from WC and read the handbook. He was able to get it to install correctly the first time without difficulty but had hardware problems that prevented some things from working. I myself enjoyed a painless (almost) first install of FreeBSD but even if it wasn't I'd still use it. I started on Linux (RedHat, then Slackware, then SuSE and back to Slackware) but never could find the right distro for me. FreeBSD was a perfect fit from the moment I installed it. One thing that Slackware does have that could really help users is an official forum where questions can be posted. It is an efficient way for everyone to ask questions and quickly get them answered. I like the install program already :) Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Tremblett" To: "Micke Josefsson" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD > +--- Micke Josefsson wrote: > | > | <--Slightly trimmed quoted from freebsd-questions --> > | > | Exactly my point of view in another thread some time ago. What a newbie needs > | best is someone to put his/her questions to. If you are into BSD then recommend > | BSD, if you are into Linux then recommend the same dist as you use yourself. It > | can be very annoying for a newbie to see how helpless his computer literate > | friend is with an OS he is not used to. > | > | Apart from that I'd recommend FreeBSD before anything else. Recently I had the > | opportunity to introduce a guest professor to FreeBSD. She had really no > | computer training from the sysadmins view, but was very keen to learn. So we > | spent some time partitioning disks, discussing the pros and cons of partition > | sizes and even opened up an old disk drive for fun. All this she learned a lot > | from. But when it came to do the actual installation of FreeBSD the barrage of > | questions was to much for her in the end. I made a trial installation session > | with her and then she tried at least three times to do it herself, but failed to > | answer the correct thing on just one or two questions, with a non-working > | system as a result. A co-worker made her try RedHat 6.2, it installed as a > | breeze and actually also setup the correct X-server for her. > | > | I have pointed out to her that RedHat puts more stuff on the drive than one (I > | anyway) would want, but at the end of the day, disk space is ubiquitus and cheap. > | And the pleasure of having got the system up and running gives her better > | feedback, than the FreeBSD sysinstall does. > | > | Personally I really, really like the port/packages device and also, being a > | minimalist, I like to have a small system first and then extend it with the > | programs *I* want to be there, not what anyone else think I should be using. > | > | But then I have used computers since my Sinclair ZX80. The guest professor had a > | user's perspective not the root's, and used to MS Windows program. > | > | All in all. The problem seems to have been sysinstall here. Or anyway the > | program to perform the initial installation. Imagine that sysinstall is used for > | post-install configuration only or installation for the advanced user then > | another couple of boot-diskettes could be used to a more user friendly > | installation interface (and better looking, specially after setting my locale:) > | for newcomers or any 'generic' user. Personally I do not like the idea of a > | generic user, but some people, specially the ones just trying FreeBSD for the > | first time or are not that computer savvy might find this handy. We don't want > | to scare people away from FreeBSD. > | > | <-- end of quote > | > | Do you have any comments on this? I'd love to hear them. > > I agree with everything you said. I think there should be some info > available in sysinstall (or whatever replaces it) explaining what is > happening in each step, and the relevant terms. My background is > mainly Linux with some Sun and DEC, and I found the installation quite > difficult my first time through, mainly because all the docs said > basically "Here's how to make floppies... now that you have floppies, > boot with them and follow the steps onscreen." It was impossible to > follow the steps onscreen because the terms were so foreign and were > not explained anywhere. > > The terms I speak of here are the FreeBSDish terms (as opposed to > generic UNIX terms like users & groups) that every rookie asks about - > slice? distribution? port? package? The context of each step is not > explained. > > To be honest I haven't gotten a decent explanation of slices yet. I > try to make an analogy to PC-land partitions, but I've been told that > is incorrect. I understand that FreeBSD is a completely different fish > from Linux, but realistically, Linux is the big boy in the PC *NIX > world, and that means that Linux user's perspective should be > considered in the installer. > > We all know that FreeBSD is great from experience, but to a rookie, the > first install is what [s]he will remember. > > my $0.02 Canadian > > -- > Steve Tremblett > Cisco Systems > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 12:24:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mutant.clue.com (ns.clue.com [208.36.197.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B5D37B479 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:24:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mutant.clue.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mutant.clue.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA1KOJf19302; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:24:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200011012024.eA1KOJf19302@mutant.clue.com> To: "Jason Sheets" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 01 Nov 2000 13:12:26 MST Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 13:24:19 -0700 From: ericr Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : I recently recommended FreeBSD to a friend who was interested in joining the : *NIX world. : : He had never used either Linux or any other form of *nix but went ahead and : bought the set from WC and read the handbook. : : He was able to get it to install correctly the first time without difficulty : but had hardware problems that prevented some things from working. : : I myself enjoyed a painless (almost) first install of FreeBSD but even if it : wasn't I'd still use it. : : I started on Linux (RedHat, then Slackware, then SuSE and back to Slackware) : but never could find the right distro for me. : : FreeBSD was a perfect fit from the moment I installed it. : : One thing that Slackware does have that could really help users is an : official forum where questions can be posted. : : It is an efficient way for everyone to ask questions and quickly get them : answered. Uh, there's freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, there's the newsgroup(s) comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.*, there's the bug database (ok, you can't ask questions of it, but you can search for similar problems and see if you've found a bug), and probably several other pretty official ways to ask questions. the first two have usually taken care of my issues, although not always the way I might have liked. ;-) ericr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 14:16:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from inu.net (mail.inu.net [63.151.4.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA40137B4C5 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from inu.net [63.151.3.239] by inu.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6506B30134; Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:16:48 -0600 Message-ID: <3A009637.9491FE09@inu.net> Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:16:23 -0600 From: Bob Martin Organization: InterNet Unlimited X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Micke Josefsson wrote: > > On freebsd-questions there is now a thread 'Beginners with bsd'. As some of it > has a bearing on advocacy and I have recent experience of this perhaps you will > be interested. ---> snip <---- > Do you have any comments on this? I'd love to hear them. > > Cheers, > /Micke > > ---------------------------------- > Michael Josefsson, MSEE > mj@isy.liu.se > > This message was sent by XFMail > running on FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE > ---------------------------------- I think the context of the "newbie" is the real issue here. Years ago I watched a friend, with tons of Apple (NOT MacIntosh) experience give up on an install of Win95. I have never met an Irix, SCO, DEC Unix, or Solaris admin that had trouble installing xBSD, but have seen members of that same group fight with installs of both Linux and NT. FreeBSD "inherited" it's installation concept from BSD, which in turn, was based on AT&T Unix. So there is a similarity in the way Unices derived from that environment behave. Since most of our new users come to us from either Windows or Linux, we need an installation program that is a lot more like the ones that they've used in the past. I've often wondered how many users we loose while they are trying to load the OS. What I would really like to see is a FreeBSD installer on par with the UnixWare 7 or Tru64 5.0 installers. (A clone of SCO Admin would be nice too!) Failing that, we probably need something that looks more like a Linux installer, or a really good rosetta stone. -- Bob Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 14:26:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from copper.americanisp.net (copper.americanisp.net [208.244.174.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB43337B4CF for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28758 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2000 22:26:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oxygen.americanisp.net) (208.244.174.10) by copper.americanisp.net with SMTP; 1 Nov 2000 22:26:07 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:26:10 -0700 (MST) From: Peter To: Bob Martin Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3A009637.9491FE09@inu.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think the FBSD install is a good as just about any. The only thing that Linux intalls have going for them is they are GUI/X installs with a mouse and not keyboards. I for one found the FBSD install easy (4.0-R cd), it was confusing at times when I hit [return] instead of space, but otherwise FBSD install is piece of cake to anyone that knows what a partition is. I for one do think that RH 6.1 install is easier for newbies then the FBSD install only for the reason that is it point and click, otherwise FBSD and RH install on the same level. --- www.nul.cjb.net --- The Power to Crash! --- www.FreeBSD.org --- The Power to Serve! On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Bob Martin wrote: > Micke Josefsson wrote: > > > > On freebsd-questions there is now a thread 'Beginners with bsd'. As some of it > > has a bearing on advocacy and I have recent experience of this perhaps you will > > be interested. > > ---> snip <---- > > > Do you have any comments on this? I'd love to hear them. > > > > Cheers, > > /Micke > > > > ---------------------------------- > > Michael Josefsson, MSEE > > mj@isy.liu.se > > > > This message was sent by XFMail > > running on FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE > > ---------------------------------- > > I think the context of the "newbie" is the real issue here. Years ago I > watched a friend, with tons of Apple (NOT MacIntosh) experience give up > on an install of Win95. I have never met an Irix, SCO, DEC Unix, or > Solaris admin that had trouble installing xBSD, but have seen members of > that same group fight with installs of both Linux and NT. FreeBSD > "inherited" it's installation concept from BSD, which in turn, was based > on AT&T Unix. So there is a similarity in the way Unices derived from > that environment behave. > > Since most of our new users come to us from either Windows or Linux, we > need an installation program that is a lot more like the ones that > they've used in the past. I've often wondered how many users we loose > while they are trying to load the OS. What I would really like to see is > a FreeBSD installer on par with the UnixWare 7 or Tru64 5.0 installers. > (A clone of SCO Admin would be nice too!) Failing that, we probably need > something that looks more like a Linux installer, or a really good > rosetta stone. > > -- > Bob Martin > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 14:57:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583E537B4CF for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04228; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:55:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAu1a4hi; Wed Nov 1 15:55:39 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05886; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:57:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011012257.PAA05886@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD To: ericr@clue.com (ericr) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:57:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: shadowalker@rmci.net (Jason Sheets), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011012024.eA1KOJf19302@mutant.clue.com> from "ericr" at Nov 01, 2000 01:24:19 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : It is an efficient way for everyone to ask questions and quickly get them > : answered. > > Uh, there's freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, there's the newsgroup(s) > comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.*, there's the bug database (ok, you can't ask > questions of it, but you can search for similar problems and see if > you've found a bug), and probably several other pretty official ways > to ask questions. the first two have usually taken care of my issues, > although not always the way I might have liked. ;-) You missed the part where he said "and quickly get them answered". The response "RTFM" or "FAQ #28" isn't an answer. The most silly thing I've seen of this nature is a "FAQ #1" answer to a "Hi, I've been told to read FAQ #28; where can I find the FAQ?" question. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 15:11:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (aaa.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16D237B65E for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([146.63.110.47]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id G3DCFC00.C2C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:11:36 -0900 Message-ID: <3A00A369.DBB0779A@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:12:41 -0900 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD References: <200011012257.PAA05886@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Uh, there's freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, there's the newsgroup(s) > > comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.*, there's the bug database (ok, you can't ask > > questions of it, but you can search for similar problems and see if > > you've found a bug), and probably several other pretty official ways > > to ask questions. the first two have usually taken care of my issues, > > although not always the way I might have liked. ;-) > > You missed the part where he said "and quickly get them answered". > > The response "RTFM" or "FAQ #28" isn't an answer. The most > silly thing I've seen of this nature is a "FAQ #1" answer to > a "Hi, I've been told to read FAQ #28; where can I find the > FAQ?" question. I agree with you here, most of these replies are less than helpful. As a newbie myself, I've tried several methods to get answers. I do read the handbook and FAQs for the appropriate sections, but if I want an answer not in the usual docs, the _fastest_ way has been the mailing list archives. More info on the effective use and searching of the mailing list archives might help a lot of people, since most questions, even the very hardware/configuration specific ones, have been asked and answered. I have very seldom needed to ask my own question on any newsgroup or mailing list. This is great if you don't feel like reading "RTFM!" or such. Brian Raynes > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 1 17:17:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bne004m.webcentral.com.au (bne004m.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CAA837B4CF for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17180 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2000 01:17:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (203.147.162.220) by bne004m.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 2 Nov 2000 01:17:11 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Micke Josefsson" , Subject: RE: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:20:59 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sysinstall, compared to some of the linux installers look dated, however, when it works, it works really well. When it doesn't, it leads to much tearing of hair. It took me three long months of patience to have a FreeBSD box actually running, and the bit that troubled me most was partitioning; Mind you, half these problems would not have occurred had I actually read all the documentation beforehand, but then again, who does anyway? :) Once I had the disk properly partioned (had the slices under the 1024th cylinder, properly sized partitions (small var, big /usr) and so forth), It was pretty much smooth sailing all the way. Post-install, I used sysinstall to setup my network interfaces (could never get the syntax for ifconfig right), and packages. The experience related above was on a box that was dual booting. I've since moved on, and am running freebsd on it's own box. Partitioning is so much easier when you have a dedicated disk. As for sysinstall, I've not used it in a long, long time. The last time i did use it for was to setup my NIC...(damn you, ifconfig, damn you). While I still consider myself a newbie at large, sysinstall's usefulness declines the more and more things you learn...(unless there's a hidden ubermenu noone's told me about...out with it, guys!) To get back on track, one of sysinstalls failings, while not being a technical point, is it's image. Everytime I talk to some llama who's installing linux, he goes "OOOOOOhhhhh look at all the pretty colors, mmmmmmmmmmm graphical install...does FreeBSd have that???" Of course me being the civilized being that I am, instead of smacking them upside the head then and there, I wait till they are finished installing, and laugh my arse off linuxconf shits itself for the 20th time. Haa Haa Haa. So in conclusion, in order to make FreeBSD's initial installation easier for the novice/unix beginner/grandma , yes, sysinstall does need an overhaul. In another note, I've convinced about three other people to install FreeBSD...maybe I'll ask them what it was like, installing, when and if they ever actually get around to doing it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Micke Josefsson Sent: Wednesday, 1 November 2000 6:04 PM To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD On freebsd-questions there is now a thread 'Beginners with bsd'. As some of it has a bearing on advocacy and I have recent experience of this perhaps you will be interested. The thread started off with a newcomer asking whether FreeBSD is suitable for a beginner. Specially this particular beginner wondered if tools for typical MS Office chores existed. The answers, this far, has pointed out the clear, thorough documentation of FreeBSD, as a good thing for newbies. Other answers include congratulations for trying it out and lots of encouraging voices. The presence of StarOffice and WordPerfect as alternatives to MS Office has also been mentioned. But some people recommended a Linux dist (notably Storm or SuSe) as the easy way out. And even went as far as saying that FreeBSD is not for the faint of heart. Finally Igor Roboul made this note: "But, generally, if I talk about friends, it is better install something, for which you have "live person near you" :-)" This last sentence had me triggered to write a reply due to my recent experience: <--Slightly trimmed quoted from freebsd-questions --> Exactly my point of view in another thread some time ago. What a newbie needs best is someone to put his/her questions to. If you are into BSD then recommend BSD, if you are into Linux then recommend the same dist as you use yourself. It can be very annoying for a newbie to see how helpless his computer literate friend is with an OS he is not used to. Apart from that I'd recommend FreeBSD before anything else. Recently I had the opportunity to introduce a guest professor to FreeBSD. She had really no computer training from the sysadmins view, but was very keen to learn. So we spent some time partitioning disks, discussing the pros and cons of partition sizes and even opened up an old disk drive for fun. All this she learned a lot from. But when it came to do the actual installation of FreeBSD the barrage of questions was to much for her in the end. I made a trial installation session with her and then she tried at least three times to do it herself, but failed to answer the correct thing on just one or two questions, with a non-working system as a result. A co-worker made her try RedHat 6.2, it installed as a breeze and actually also setup the correct X-server for her. I have pointed out to her that RedHat puts more stuff on the drive than one (I anyway) would want, but at the end of the day, disk space is ubiquitus and cheap. And the pleasure of having got the system up and running gives her better feedback, than the FreeBSD sysinstall does. Personally I really, really like the port/packages device and also, being a minimalist, I like to have a small system first and then extend it with the programs *I* want to be there, not what anyone else think I should be using. But then I have used computers since my Sinclair ZX80. The guest professor had a user's perspective not the root's, and used to MS Windows program. All in all. The problem seems to have been sysinstall here. Or anyway the program to perform the initial installation. Imagine that sysinstall is used for post-install configuration only or installation for the advanced user then another couple of boot-diskettes could be used to a more user friendly installation interface (and better looking, specially after setting my locale:) for newcomers or any 'generic' user. Personally I do not like the idea of a generic user, but some people, specially the ones just trying FreeBSD for the first time or are not that computer savvy might find this handy. We don't want to scare people away from FreeBSD. <-- end of quote Do you have any comments on this? I'd love to hear them. Cheers, /Micke ---------------------------------- Michael Josefsson, MSEE mj@isy.liu.se This message was sent by XFMail running on FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 4: 9:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from isy.liu.se (isy.liu.se [130.236.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723F937B4CF for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 04:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from lagrange.isy.liu.se (lagrange.isy.liu.se [130.236.49.127]) by isy.liu.se (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id eA2C9Sn04579; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:09:28 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A009637.9491FE09@inu.net> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 13:09:26 +0100 (CET) From: Micke Josefsson To: Bob Martin Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 01-Nov-00 Bob Martin wrote: > Micke Josefsson wrote: >> >> On freebsd-questions there is now a thread 'Beginners with bsd'. As some of >> it >> has a bearing on advocacy and I have recent experience of this perhaps you >> will >> be interested. > > ---> snip <---- > >> Do you have any comments on this? I'd love to hear them. >> >> Cheers, >> /Micke >> >> ---------------------------------- >> Michael Josefsson, MSEE >> mj@isy.liu.se >> >> This message was sent by XFMail >> running on FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE >> ---------------------------------- > > I think the context of the "newbie" is the real issue here. Years ago I > watched a friend, with tons of Apple (NOT MacIntosh) experience give up > on an install of Win95. I have never met an Irix, SCO, DEC Unix, or > Solaris admin that had trouble installing xBSD, but have seen members of > that same group fight with installs of both Linux and NT. FreeBSD > "inherited" it's installation concept from BSD, which in turn, was based > on AT&T Unix. So there is a similarity in the way Unices derived from > that environment behave. > > Since most of our new users come to us from either Windows or Linux, we > need an installation program that is a lot more like the ones that > they've used in the past. I've often wondered how many users we loose > while they are trying to load the OS. What I would really like to see is > a FreeBSD installer on par with the UnixWare 7 or Tru64 5.0 installers. > (A clone of SCO Admin would be nice too!) Failing that, we probably need > something that looks more like a Linux installer, or a really good > rosetta stone. Well, what about a new alternative to selecting Standard, Express or Custom installation then? A 'Newbie' selection where one does not have to answer all the incomprehensible stuff about 'Do you want this to be a leaf node' (what the h**k is a leaf node anyway, the newbie surely will ask) and whether this machine is an NFS server or not. Many of these questions are merely confusing and have reasonable defaults (yes it is a leaf node, no it is not an NFS server, no I dont want anonymous connections etc). If you are not happy with these defaults then run sysinstall again after the machine has succesfully booted. The first boot is a milestone I do not think one should ignore. I think there is a long way from hearing about FreeBSD to actually getting a CD and then another long stretch to dare to install it. The other partitions may go away, the menus clearly says so. A successful first boot is a real triumph over the silicon. Let the 'Newbie install' go through the partitioning of the disk to select where to install FreeBSD, but force it to use Defaults for partition sizes. He/she wants to setup a keyboard and mouse (and timezone?) but not necessarily IP and anonymous ftp etc. Skip the source, but make a selection of X or not. If X is selected then install every Xserver at once - yes it consumes space but the XF86Setup will be easier, most people don't know the exact name of their graphics card anyway. Sidenote: I always install the system first, then reboot and only after that I try to install X. The risks involved with accidentally or unknowingly selecting the wrong monitor frequencies or graphics card are to high. Many graphics cards have confusingly similar names, too. If I fail installing X when doing the first time install I will have to (well, likely anyway) reinstall everything. Anger, confusion, and generally a feeling of failure will soon appear. Am I the only one doing it this way? With this kind of easier setup I definately believe that many more people will manage to do a successful install. It is only then the fun starts! Of course many are not ready to dig deep into the root role, and why should they? For home use, adding packages from CD is often enough (or am I wrong here). While at it: Why not include a file with pointers to information resources? freebsd-questions mailinglist, comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, daemonnews.org, bsdtoday.com for example. Another of my 2 öre. /Micke > > -- > Bob Martin > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- Michael Josefsson, MSEE mj@isy.liu.se This message was sent by XFMail running on FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 5:31:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orion.buckhorn.net (orion.buckhorn.net [63.151.7.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84E037B479 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 05:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from buckhorn.net (localhost.buckhorn.net [127.0.0.1]) by orion.buckhorn.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eA2DVJ757056 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:31:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bob@buckhorn.net) Message-ID: <3A016CA7.1F9560EF@buckhorn.net> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 07:31:19 -0600 From: Bob Martin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Micke Josefsson wrote: > > Well, what about a new alternative to selecting Standard, Express or Custom > installation then? A 'Newbie' selection where one does not have to answer all the > incomprehensible stuff about 'Do you want this to be a leaf node' (what the h**k > is a leaf node anyway, the newbie surely will ask) and whether this machine is an > NFS server or not. Many of these questions are merely confusing and have > reasonable defaults (yes it is a leaf node, no it is not an NFS server, no I > dont want anonymous connections etc). If you are not happy with these defaults > then run sysinstall again after the machine has succesfully booted. First, I would like to clarify that I personally like sysinstall just the way it is. But from most accounts, it's alienating to people coming from a Windows or Linux background. I think the best solution would be a new installer, something along the lines of SCO's UW7 installer. Failing that, context help for each screen on a standard install would probably go a long way. And I like your idea of a "Default" installation, where all of the reasonable choices are made automatically. > The first boot is a milestone I do not think one should ignore. I think there is > a long way from hearing about FreeBSD to actually getting a CD and then another > long stretch to dare to install it. The other partitions may go away, the menus > clearly says so. A successful first boot is a real triumph over the silicon. I whole heartedly agree with you on this. I think most people equate that first sucessful load to their first big step towards becoming a computer guru. Loading any OS for the first time is a departure from being an "average user". Loading FBSD is a big departure. > Let the 'Newbie install' go through the partitioning of the disk to select where > to install FreeBSD, but force it to use Defaults for partition sizes. He/she > wants to setup a keyboard and mouse (and timezone?) but not necessarily IP and > anonymous ftp etc. Skip the source, but make a selection of X or not. If X is > selected then install every Xserver at once - yes it consumes space but the > XF86Setup will be easier, most people don't know the exact name of their > graphics card anyway. I agree that disklabel is a roadblock for most newbies. Again, I like the idea of a "Default" installation. > Sidenote: I always install the system first, then reboot and only after that I > try to install X. The risks involved with accidentally or unknowingly selecting > the wrong monitor frequencies or graphics card are to high. Many graphics cards > have confusingly similar names, too. If I fail installing X when doing the first > time install I will have to (well, likely anyway) reinstall everything. Anger, > confusion, and generally a feeling of failure will soon appear. Am I the only > one doing it this way? I've been toying with the idea of reading the initial boot message and maping the detected video card to the Xserver. That solves the Xserver issue, but still leaves the monitor selection issue. Perhaps the solution would be to create a "first boot" script that finishes the setup, and handles things like the X environment. > With this kind of easier setup I definately believe that many more people will > manage to do a successful install. It is only then the fun starts! Of course > many are not ready to dig deep into the root role, and why should they? For home > use, adding packages from CD is often enough (or am I wrong here). It's been my experience that most novice users do everything as root. This is primarily due to the fact that you have to be root to mount drives, change most configuration files and to install packages. This is also probably due to the influence of the Windows95/98 world most new users come from. In MS's world, everyone is root. > While at it: Why not include a file with pointers to information resources? > freebsd-questions mailinglist, comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, daemonnews.org, > bsdtoday.com for example. A shell script that more's /usr/share/doc/resources? I really like that idea. > Another of my 2 öre. > > /Micke > > > ---------------------------------- > Michael Josefsson, MSEE > mj@isy.liu.se > > This message was sent by XFMail > running on FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE > ---------------------------------- Bob Martin. -- As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. -- Albert Einstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 7:56:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from c006.sfo.cp.net (c003-h004.c003.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7880037B65E for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (cpmta 21008 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2000 07:56:09 -0800 Received: from porton.webhostix.com (HELO maquina) (148.245.81.248) by smtp.avantel.net (209.228.32.218) with SMTP; 2 Nov 2000 07:56:09 -0800 X-Sent: 2 Nov 2000 15:56:09 GMT From: "Ignacio Cristerna" To: "Micke Josefsson" , "Bob Martin" Cc: Subject: RE: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:55:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What is absolutely maddening is the way the installer accepts input from the users. Sometimes you press (or are supposed to press) and some other times you are supposed to press . But the worst part is when you just finished installing the OS and you find yourself back in a menu telling you to do some final adjustments. If you decide to do these final adjustments, the f*****ng installer installs the OS again! It´s outrageous! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 10:43:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F2BEC37B4D7 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 45514 invoked by uid 1003); 2 Nov 2000 18:43:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:43:20 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Ignacio Cristerna Cc: Micke Josefsson , Bob Martin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Message-ID: <20001102204320.A34775@mithrandr.moria.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ignacioc@avantel.net on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:55:58AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 X-URL: http://mithrandr.moria.org/nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu 2000-11-02 (09:55), Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > What is absolutely maddening is the way the installer accepts input from the > users. Sometimes you press (or are supposed to press) and some > other times you are supposed to press . But the worst part is when > you just finished installing the OS and you find yourself back in a menu > telling you to do some final adjustments. If you decide to do these final > adjustments, the f*****ng installer installs the OS again! It´s outrageous! That would be a bug. You can get bugs fixed if you mention them to someone who can fix them, or fix them yourself. If you're a newbie (from the subject), this is as simple as (optionally) making sure with other people that they get this problem too (questions@FreeBSD.org is a good place to do this), making sure yourself the problem exists, and then reporting the bug, if someone doesn't fix it when you ask around if people get the problem. There are two ways to report bugs - mail, and the PR system. I suggest filing a PR, and then sending mail to a mailing list (possibly hackers@FreeBSD.org if you're _really_ sure you found a bug) after a few days (some people do it immediately, but often things are dealt with jsut by people watching the bug reports) providing a short overview, and a pointer to the PR. The PR will probably be assigned to the maintainer of the code, if any, (in this case, Murray Stokely (murray@FreeBSD.org)) and then they'll ask a few questions if they can't reproduce the problem, and then will work on a fix, or assign it off to someone who will do the fix. File the PR, please. These don't get lost nearly as easily as mail archives. If the person can't do it now, he may assign it to the general pool, and at least if you file the PR, the general pool will know about it, and someone may stumble over the problem, or see the PR, and fix it. Otherwise, it will most probably be forgotten. It's not about the developers being bad, it's about the developers having tons of work sometimes, and less work other times, and that if something slips passed when they're working lots, they usually don't want to dredge through mail archives searching for problems (most of which will be solved already anyway), and they don't necessarily have perfect memory as to what problems they saw last week, and of those, which still aren't solved. This is why the PR system exists - to provide a more failure-resistant memory to the developer community. What doesn't make the bugs get fixed is people who don't report them, and then hold them as some sort of trump card to complain vitriolically on the mailing lists on a thread that the people who count may not be reading. I'd suggest you make sure to calmly look at the problem, write out as much information as possible, and as much detail, and describe all your steps, and do what I say above. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 11:23:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from c006.sfo.cp.net (c003-h000.c003.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C82D37B4E5 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (cpmta 12118 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2000 11:23:39 -0800 Received: from Libre.81.245.148.in-addr.arpa (HELO maquina) (148.245.81.248) by smtp.avantel.net (209.228.32.214) with SMTP; 2 Nov 2000 11:23:39 -0800 X-Sent: 2 Nov 2000 19:23:39 GMT From: "Ignacio Cristerna" To: "Neil Blakey-Milner" , "Ignacio Cristerna" Cc: "Micke Josefsson" , "Bob Martin" , Subject: RE: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:23:32 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <20001102204320.A34775@mithrandr.moria.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please, I don´t mean to say that I don´t like FreeBSD; au contraire, I love starting with its little diablito. My post is to point a feature that may be confusing ther first(s) times you install FreeBSD. After hitting the wall many times, I´ve learned to use the expert installation option; I find it easier to use. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Neil Blakey-Milner Sent: Jueves, 02 de Noviembre de 2000 12:43 To: Ignacio Cristerna Cc: Micke Josefsson; Bob Martin; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD On Thu 2000-11-02 (09:55), Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > What is absolutely maddening is the way the installer accepts input from the > users. Sometimes you press (or are supposed to press) and some > other times you are supposed to press . But the worst part is when > you just finished installing the OS and you find yourself back in a menu > telling you to do some final adjustments. If you decide to do these final > adjustments, the f*****ng installer installs the OS again! It´s outrageous! That would be a bug. You can get bugs fixed if you mention them to someone who can fix them, or fix them yourself. If you're a newbie (from the subject), this is as simple as (optionally) making sure with other people that they get this problem too (questions@FreeBSD.org is a good place to do this), making sure yourself the problem exists, and then reporting the bug, if someone doesn't fix it when you ask around if people get the problem. There are two ways to report bugs - mail, and the PR system. I suggest filing a PR, and then sending mail to a mailing list (possibly hackers@FreeBSD.org if you're _really_ sure you found a bug) after a few days (some people do it immediately, but often things are dealt with jsut by people watching the bug reports) providing a short overview, and a pointer to the PR. The PR will probably be assigned to the maintainer of the code, if any, (in this case, Murray Stokely (murray@FreeBSD.org)) and then they'll ask a few questions if they can't reproduce the problem, and then will work on a fix, or assign it off to someone who will do the fix. File the PR, please. These don't get lost nearly as easily as mail archives. If the person can't do it now, he may assign it to the general pool, and at least if you file the PR, the general pool will know about it, and someone may stumble over the problem, or see the PR, and fix it. Otherwise, it will most probably be forgotten. It's not about the developers being bad, it's about the developers having tons of work sometimes, and less work other times, and that if something slips passed when they're working lots, they usually don't want to dredge through mail archives searching for problems (most of which will be solved already anyway), and they don't necessarily have perfect memory as to what problems they saw last week, and of those, which still aren't solved. This is why the PR system exists - to provide a more failure-resistant memory to the developer community. What doesn't make the bugs get fixed is people who don't report them, and then hold them as some sort of trump card to complain vitriolically on the mailing lists on a thread that the people who count may not be reading. I'd suggest you make sure to calmly look at the problem, write out as much information as possible, and as much detail, and describe all your steps, and do what I say above. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 11:48: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2734B37B4CF for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA2JloU25174; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:47:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Bob Martin Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message from Bob Martin of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 07:31:19 CST." <3A016CA7.1F9560EF@buckhorn.net> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 11:47:50 -0800 Message-ID: <25170.973194470@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > First, I would like to clarify that I personally like sysinstall just > the way it is. But from most accounts, it's alienating to people coming > from a Windows or Linux background. > [recap of discussion from 1993 elided] I'm not just being snide here, we really have had this very same discussion (and in almost the same words) on and off for the last 7 years now. It's hardly rocket science to envision an installer which has one big button on it which even your grandmother could push, the question always boiling down to "Who the heck is going to write this thing then?" That's generally where the discussion stops. Every man and his dog can describe an installer which follows in the footsteps of Windows, Solaris or even OS X now that we have its installer to look at since imitation is a pretty straight-forward design challenge. As I first said back in 1993, "who will step up to the plate and create this alternative installer so that we can evaluate its merits and possibly even make it the default?" I'm still waiting for an answer to that question, 7 years later. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 12:32:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from inu.net (mail.inu.net [63.151.4.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A3B37B4E5 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from inu.net [63.151.3.239] by inu.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF63122A014A; Thu, 02 Nov 2000 14:32:35 -0600 Message-ID: <3A01CF60.CEAC9D50@inu.net> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 14:32:32 -0600 From: Bob Martin Organization: InterNet Unlimited X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD References: <25170.973194470@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > First, I would like to clarify that I personally like sysinstall just > > the way it is. But from most accounts, it's alienating to people coming > > from a Windows or Linux background. > > [recap of discussion from 1993 elided] > > I'm not just being snide here, we really have had this very same > discussion (and in almost the same words) on and off for the last 7 > years now. It's hardly rocket science to envision an installer which > has one big button on it which even your grandmother could push, the > question always boiling down to "Who the heck is going to write this > thing then?" > > That's generally where the discussion stops. Every man and his dog > can describe an installer which follows in the footsteps of Windows, > Solaris or even OS X now that we have its installer to look at since > imitation is a pretty straight-forward design challenge. As I first > said back in 1993, "who will step up to the plate and create this > alternative installer so that we can evaluate its merits and possibly > even make it the default?" I'm still waiting for an answer to that > question, 7 years later. :-) > > - Jordan Yes, this drum has been beaten long and often, and always with the same results. I apologize for for both the thumping sound I caused, and for getting so far off of the list's topic. -- Bob Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 12:47:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FDAF37B4CF for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10809 invoked by uid 1003); 2 Nov 2000 20:47:43 -0000 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:47:43 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Ignacio Cristerna Cc: Micke Josefsson , Bob Martin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Message-ID: <20001102224743.A6809@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20001102204320.A34775@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ignacioc@avantel.net on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:23:32PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 X-URL: http://mithrandr.moria.org/nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu 2000-11-02 (13:23), Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > Please, I don´t mean to say that I don´t like FreeBSD; au contraire, I love > starting with its little diablito. My post is to point a feature that may be > confusing ther first(s) times you install FreeBSD. After hitting the wall > many times, I´ve learned to use the expert installation option; I find it > easier to use. I was pretty sure you liked FreeBSD, but there's this attitude developing where people will bring up stuff for the first time as an example of why something doesn't work in a totally non-technical discussion, deeply hidden from a large number of the eyes that can probably help out. I was just suggesting that we should acknowledge it, and do something about it. If there's a bug, report it. That's the best way to improve _your_ operating system if you're unable to hack away at it and fix it. Actually, you'll probably have to file a PR to get your patch in anyway, so even if you can hack a fix, report it. (: Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 13:34:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C46037B65F for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id WAA94891 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:34:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13333 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:34:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:34:27 +0100 (CET) From: Marius Bendiksen To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: CounterStrike Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'm not subscribed to the list, so please keep me in the CC: list. ISTR that a number of games, including Quake ]I[, have been ported to Linux recently, and all the ports work under FreeBSD, or so I've been told. However, I fail to see a port of HalfLife, and specifically the CounterStrike mod. I think pushing to have this ported would be a great idea, as FreeBSD and Unix in general has a way to go when it comes to games. And these are undoubtedly the most popular ones at present. A first step would be to make a port skeleton for the dedicated Linux server. Then pushing at Sierra to allow a port of the full game. --- Marius Bendiksen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 14:10:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AF037B4CF for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA06334; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:09:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAYWaaOl; Thu Nov 2 15:08:26 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19487; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:09:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011022209.PAA19487@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD To: jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:09:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bob@buckhorn.net (Bob Martin), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <25170.973194470@winston.osd.bsdi.com> from "Jordan Hubbard" at Nov 02, 2000 11:47:50 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > question always boiling down to "Who the heck is going to write this > thing then?" > > That's generally where the discussion stops. Every man and his dog > can describe an installer which follows in the footsteps of Windows, > Solaris or even OS X now that we have its installer to look at since > imitation is a pretty straight-forward design challenge. As I first > said back in 1993, "who will step up to the plate and create this > alternative installer so that we can evaluate its merits and possibly > even make it the default?" I'm still waiting for an answer to that > question, 7 years later. :-) Maybe if there were money in it. I mentioned before that I knew someone was willing to do it with a "soft updates"-like license, where they got to make the money off it for a year after first release, then it would fall out into Open Source, and could be used by Walnut Creek, but they'd have to be able to market the CDROMs as something like "WhiteHat FreeBSD". Did I mention that I know the guy who put the "prograss bar" into the Windows InstallShield installer code, used by Windows itself and almost every program distributed for Windows? Not saying these two topics are related, but not saying they aren't, either... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 14:24:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from c014.sfo.cp.net (c014-h017.c014.sfo.cp.net [209.228.12.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DF9C37B4D7 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:24:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (cpmta 6668 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2000 14:24:08 -0800 Received: from m12hRs4n205.midsouth.rr.com (HELO mike) (24.95.125.205) by smtp.valuedata.net (209.228.12.81) with SMTP; 2 Nov 2000 14:24:08 -0800 X-Sent: 2 Nov 2000 22:24:08 GMT Message-ID: <000d01c0451b$9ee1b700$0200000a@mike> From: "Daryl Chance" To: "Marius Bendiksen" , References: Subject: Re: CounterStrike Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:24:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG have you tried looking in the ports collection? I just searched the ports collection and got: $make search key=halflife Port: HLDS-3.1.0.1 Path: /usr/ports/games/halflifeserver Info: Half-Life server for Linux - includes Counterstrike Maint: markm@FreeBSD.org Index: games linux B-deps: linux_base-6.1 R-deps: linux_base-6.1 perhaps you need to update your ports collection? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Daryl Chance | We start seeing these new accounts being created, | | -------------- | but that could be an anomaly of the system. After | | Valuedata, LLC | a day or two, we realized it was someone hacking | | Memphis, TN | into the system. - Microsoft on thier hacker | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marius Bendiksen" To: Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 3:34 PM Subject: CounterStrike > Hi, I'm not subscribed to the list, so please keep me in the CC: list. > > ISTR that a number of games, including Quake ]I[, have been ported to > Linux recently, and all the ports work under FreeBSD, or so I've been > told. However, I fail to see a port of HalfLife, and specifically the > CounterStrike mod. > > I think pushing to have this ported would be a great idea, as FreeBSD > and Unix in general has a way to go when it comes to games. And these > are undoubtedly the most popular ones at present. > > A first step would be to make a port skeleton for the dedicated Linux > server. Then pushing at Sierra to allow a port of the full game. > > --- > Marius Bendiksen > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 16:20:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from c006.sfo.cp.net (c003-h004.c003.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC62637B479 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (cpmta 7632 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2000 16:20:08 -0800 Received: from porton.webhostix.com (HELO maquina) (148.245.81.248) by smtp.avantel.net (209.228.32.218) with SMTP; 2 Nov 2000 16:20:08 -0800 X-Sent: 3 Nov 2000 00:20:08 GMT From: "Ignacio Cristerna" To: "Jordan Hubbard" , "Bob Martin" Cc: Subject: RE: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:19:59 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <25170.973194470@winston.osd.bsdi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesus, Jordan, why do you always have to take it personally. We all want FreeBSD to be the premier Open-Source Unix and I think this discussion will lead to a better understanding of the reasons for the way some "features" work. I think we would be better off if we didn´t consider the point being brought up here as an attack. Have fun. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jordan Hubbard Sent: Jueves, 02 de Noviembre de 2000 13:48 To: Bob Martin Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD > First, I would like to clarify that I personally like sysinstall just > the way it is. But from most accounts, it's alienating to people coming > from a Windows or Linux background. > [recap of discussion from 1993 elided] I'm not just being snide here, we really have had this very same discussion (and in almost the same words) on and off for the last 7 years now. It's hardly rocket science to envision an installer which has one big button on it which even your grandmother could push, the question always boiling down to "Who the heck is going to write this thing then?" That's generally where the discussion stops. Every man and his dog can describe an installer which follows in the footsteps of Windows, Solaris or even OS X now that we have its installer to look at since imitation is a pretty straight-forward design challenge. As I first said back in 1993, "who will step up to the plate and create this alternative installer so that we can evaluate its merits and possibly even make it the default?" I'm still waiting for an answer to that question, 7 years later. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 17:16: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4CC37B4C5 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id CAA03107; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 02:15:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA14109; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 02:15:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 02:15:57 +0100 (CET) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Daryl Chance Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CounterStrike In-Reply-To: <000d01c0451b$9ee1b700$0200000a@mike> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > have you tried looking in the ports collection? I just searched the ports > collection and got: [snip] > perhaps you need to update your ports collection? Okay, my ports were out of sync with regards to the server (though we should nag the HL people about getting Chuck up there rather than the dumb penguin in the server browser). However, we still don't actually have the game itself, which is the bit I miss. It is the first game to have caught my attention since Dune II came out a number of years back; CS, that is, not HL. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 2 17:35:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD2637B4C5 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA31ZOI01163; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:35:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: "Ignacio Cristerna" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message from "Ignacio Cristerna" of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:19:59 CST." Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:35:23 -0800 Message-ID: <1158.973215323@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Jesus, Jordan, why do you always have to take it personally. We all want I don't and didn't take it personally. > FreeBSD to be the premier Open-Source Unix and I think this discussion will > lead to a better understanding of the reasons for the way some "features" > work. I think we would be better off if we didn´t consider the point being > brought up here as an attack. It wasn't an attack. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing between hostility and pragmatism, my letter reflecting a 100% dose of the latter and none at all of the former. I'm not out to quash discussion, I'm trying to steer discussion into one of the areas it has consistently failed to go in every single time this issue has come up (and it's come up with almost stultifying regularity) - IMPLEMENTATION. We've been over a huge and hypothetical landscape of desired features more times than I can count and anyone wishing to cut to the chase on that discussion merely need search the mailing list archives with the keyword "installer" - it truly has been all said (but not done) before. What needs to happen now is for someone, and let's say that someone is you for the purpose of this argument, to actually sit down and organize all these desired features into a set of more practical "this is what we can reasonably accomplish" bullet points. Then for each bullet, you need to write a first-draft implementation and throw it out for general comment. Even when you don't get a lot of feedback in return, you then need to have the perseverance to get through each of the bullets and wrap it all up in the form of an ftp'able floppy image (or images) which can actually be run and tested. At that point, all the empirical evidence I have available to me suggests that people will start to get *really* interested and start providing diffs or outright filling in the missing sections of your new installer if it really does fill the bill. Sysinstall took about a year to come fully to fruition this way but we can also hopefully assume that your effort will be able to benefit substantially from 20-20 hindsight and cut this time by around 6 months, so the sooner you start coding, the sooner we'll actually see the kind of tangible results everyone wants to see. I have only one question: When can you get started? I also hope you're not going to respond that you lack the time or the skill to do this since everybody says that and, as an answer, it's gotten pretty old and weak. Pleasantly surprise us all instead by answering my question with a proposed time-table why don't you. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 1:27:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0085C37B479 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 01:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA39ROI96877 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 01:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 01:27:24 -0800 Message-ID: <96873.973243644@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Image size would be 460x60 or so (this seems typical) and a reasonable number of frames, though they should also loop to give the viewer a feeling of continuous action if possible. This banner advert would then be used to promote the FreeBSD project on various open source web sites which run banner ads. I'm not going to mention specific sites at this stage since it's not a done-deal anywhere without an animated banner ad even available to run, but let's just say that the right banner would be put to immediate and reasonably prominent use. Since this is a FreeBSD project thing I also can't offer anyone any money, just the satisfaction of seeing your artwork in lights and the warm fuzzy glow that comes from helping to promote the FreeBSD cause. :-) Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 3: 4:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699C537B4CF for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA17996; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 04:05:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAKPaWhJ; Fri Nov 3 04:05:18 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA11209; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 04:04:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011031104.EAA11209@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Installation: what to (not) do about it To: jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:04:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: ignacioc@avantel.net (Ignacio Cristerna), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1158.973215323@winston.osd.bsdi.com> from "Jordan Hubbard" at Nov 02, 2000 05:35:23 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It wasn't an attack. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing > between hostility and pragmatism, my letter reflecting a 100% dose of > the latter and none at all of the former. I'm not out to quash > discussion, I'm trying to steer discussion into one of the areas it > has consistently failed to go in every single time this issue has come > up (and it's come up with almost stultifying regularity) - IMPLEMENTATION. What ever happened to that huge amount of installer code that The FreeBSD Project funded with that Russian(?) guy? Ist aht code anywhere to be used as a base, or is it all water under the bridge, and time to start from scratch again? For a long time, the FUD that there was going to be an installer that someone had been paid to write, kept people from spending their time on their own version, knowing that theirs would be thrown away in favor of the one the project paid for. > What needs to happen now is for someone, and let's say that someone is > you for the purpose of this argument, to actually sit down and > organize all these desired features into a set of more practical "this > is what we can reasonably accomplish" bullet points. Then for each > bullet, you need to write a first-draft implementation and throw it > out for general comment. Even when you don't get a lot of feedback in > return, you then need to have the perseverance to get through each of > the bullets and wrap it all up in the form of an ftp'able floppy image > (or images) which can actually be run and tested. This is actually a huge pain, when it comes to free software projects: the requirement of a huge, rather than a small, time commitment up front, with only a "maybe, but We Fear Change" to look forward to. In the real world, what happens is that someone comes up with a project proposal by expending a small to moderate amount of effort, and then gets buy-in before proceeding with expending a huge amount of effort, knowing that that huge amount of effort will not be wasted. This involves, first, a requirements document, and, second, a design document. In the process you describe above, the huge amount of effort must be expended up front, and then you risk not getting buy-in, unless you are willing to appease everyone who is standing in the way of your code being committed by tacking on their favorite wart at the last minute in an unplanned way. Then you end up with an unmaintainable mess, and people calling out "why, oh why, can't someone replace this thing?". With respect, sucessive iteration is not the way to arrive at a good product. Please excuse me; I am about to use the strongest language I have ever used in an email: --- Permission to quote this section out of context is DENIED THE PROGRAM "fetchmail" IS A PIECE OF UNPROFESSIONAL SHIT. I can, and did, write a superior proprietary replacement for it -- "cathedral style" -- in six weeks, four of which were spent on design. Further, I have so far had only 3 defects detected in the 28,000 lines of code in a year and a half, all of them one or two line errors, and all but one of them a typo. None were design errors. Eric Raymond should probably be castrated for irretrievably linking "Open Source" with a piece of code which, were it to be professionally reviewed, instead of addle-minded journalists just taking "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" at face value, the entire "Open Source" edifice could topple. If such an event were to occur, it would take the good code with the bad. He should be ashamed of having laid so precarious a foundation. The journalists who find the "Open Source Community" to be such darlings, without investigating whether or not the examples used by Raymond in making his claims holds water and supports his arguments, are accepting a Deux Ex Machina. They are either fearful of looking behind the curtain, i.e. not as brave as the little dog Toto, or they are simply incompetent and not worthy of putting a "Press" card in their hat bands. Neither of these is professional. --- Back to the discussion at hand... Sysinstall was recently taken to task in other threads for having poor human factors: o No universal navigation model o Inadequate POLA on disk layout management (e.g. percentages instead of blocks, a "hog" partition, etc.) o Inconsistant use of partition table and boot record code, leading to support problems (e.g. divide by zero errors in badly written BIOS, which, though arguably a BIOS error, will not be fixed by making that argument) o User experience not comparable to Windows (we should probably say "Windows Upgrade"; for a comparable experience to Windows itself, FreeBSD would have to do what Linux has done, and find a way to get on the "preinstalled OS" bandwagon) It is nearly impossible to maintain good human factors, if you are nailed to a cross which requires the addition of warts to a design not intended to support the functionality they represent. The reason for the buy-in process is to ensure against warts being necessary in the future: you map out the desired functionality, and you map out the expansion path which must be followed, and you map the entire problem space. You implement a framework that can solve the entrie problem space, and then you fill in the details in only those areas necesary for version 1.0. Subsequent versions only provide more fill-in: the skeleton remains intact and is not altered in unexpected ways. In the unlucky event that you find a compelling reason that will require changing the skeletal structure, you _reenter the design phase_ and design a skeleton that can accomodate both the old and the new. You use the fact of clean, abstract interfaces to allow you to reuse all of the muscle, skin, and internal organs _that are reasonable to reuse_, and you put the rest in a container labelled "medical waste", to be incinerated. > I have only one question: When can you get started? > > I also hope you're not going to respond that you lack the time or the > skill to do this since everybody says that and, as an answer, it's > gotten pretty old and weak. Pleasantly surprise us all instead by > answering my question with a proposed time-table why don't you. :-) Can the project guarantee a buy-in phase for a requirements document, then a design document, then an implementation, with a commitment that they will accept the design if it meets the negotiated requirements, and the final product, if it matches the design? In other words, if you want to have a professional-grade effort on this, I think you are going to need to commit to professional process -- and that means defining acceptance criteria on which the project guarantees it will not renig, so that any large effort expended will not end up to be wasted. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 3:22:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0D237B4CF for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA3BMDI13017; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:22:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: ignacioc@avantel.net (Ignacio Cristerna), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installation: what to (not) do about it In-Reply-To: Message from Terry Lambert of "Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:04:40 GMT." <200011031104.EAA11209@usr07.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 03:22:13 -0800 Message-ID: <13013.973250533@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What ever happened to that huge amount of installer code that > The FreeBSD Project funded with that Russian(?) guy? 1. It wasn't the project who funded or really had much of anything to do with it, it was Walnut Creek CDROM 2. It wasn't a huge amount of code. 3. It's called libh and there's already a mailing list devoted to it and several volunteers devoted to its gradual improvement. Where have you been? One assumes you at least read the paper I did on the topic of installers where libh is also described fully. 4. You seem to be almost compelled to furnish a stream of singularly unhelpful replies to this topic lately, providing everything from citations to proprietary projects which run counter to the goals of the FreeBSD project to manufactured descriptions of projects like libh. It really makes me wish you'd choose to focus all the free time you now so obviously have now on actually writing code; that would be a refreshing change from your current operational model. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 4: 9:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bne003m.webcentral.com.au (horizon3.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A59D37B4D7 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 04:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3239 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2000 12:09:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (203.147.161.129) by horizon3.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 3 Nov 2000 12:09:40 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Subject: RE: CounterStrike Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:13:29 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG One thing that does suck about games under FreeBSD is that you need to buy Open Sound System. (Unless you want to reinstall it every 30 days). -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Marius Bendiksen Sent: Friday, 3 November 2000 7:34 AM To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: CounterStrike Hi, I'm not subscribed to the list, so please keep me in the CC: list. ISTR that a number of games, including Quake ]I[, have been ported to Linux recently, and all the ports work under FreeBSD, or so I've been told. However, I fail to see a port of HalfLife, and specifically the CounterStrike mod. I think pushing to have this ported would be a great idea, as FreeBSD and Unix in general has a way to go when it comes to games. And these are undoubtedly the most popular ones at present. A first step would be to make a port skeleton for the dedicated Linux server. Then pushing at Sierra to allow a port of the full game. --- Marius Bendiksen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message . ubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 6:40:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7623F37B4CF for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 06:40:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29304; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:38:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAz.ayl5; Fri Nov 3 07:38:31 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA16097; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:40:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011031440.HAA16097@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Installation: what to (not) do about it To: jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:40:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), ignacioc@avantel.net (Ignacio Cristerna), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <13013.973250533@winston.osd.bsdi.com> from "Jordan Hubbard" at Nov 03, 2000 03:22:13 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > What ever happened to that huge amount of installer code that > > The FreeBSD Project funded with that Russian(?) guy? > > 1. It wasn't the project who funded or really had much of anything to > do with it, it was Walnut Creek CDROM > > 2. It wasn't a huge amount of code. > > 3. It's called libh and there's already a mailing list devoted to it > and several volunteers devoted to its gradual improvement. Where > have you been? One assumes you at least read the paper I did on > the topic of installers where libh is also described fully. I scanned it. It wasn't posted widely to FreeBSD lists to which I subscribe. I basically got to see a quoted, perhaps partial copy of your posting. From the parts of it I read, it was inadequate. It did not address the layered software issues that have only recently resurfaced in the thread on using the NetBSD rc file code. Without these issues being addressed, an installer that can only install, but not upgrade or incrementally add packages that "just work", would be the result. Such an effort might be nice if you are a CDROM manufacturer, but it's frankly useless to almost all users, since you only install once, but you do similar tasks all the time. > 4. You seem to be almost compelled to furnish a stream of singularly > unhelpful replies to this topic lately, providing everything from > citations to proprietary projects which run counter to the goals of > the FreeBSD project to manufactured descriptions of projects like > libh. It really makes me wish you'd choose to focus all the free > time you now so obviously have now on actually writing code; that > would be a refreshing change from your current operational model. I've tried doing code for FreeBSD before; other than trivial things that it takes zero brains to understand, most of my stuff hasn't made it past the commit filters, who insist on being educated about everything, and appear to be unwilling to go to college to get that education. On the contrary to your comment about having a lot of free time, what I have is a slow net conection, and I'm working to remedy that. Meanwhile, it means that I have time to read and respond to email while waiting for large downloads to complete, at least while I'm not running Microsoft tools to work on project management or business planning, etc.. I would work on coding, but FreeBSD is incapable of supporting a winmodem. As it is, I am working 12 to 16 hours a day, and have a CVS repository with about 5 million lines of code in it, about 6% of it mine, and for which I did all of the integration. --- On the subject of "counter to the goals of the FreeBSD project", which goals are those, the goal of getting FreeBSD into the hands of more people? The goal of improving the user experience? The goal of ensuring that the install code is open source, and letting it be called FreeBSD when it has soft updates code with it under a non-open source license, but not when it has an installer with it with the a similar license? I fully understand the desire to link the installer source code to use of the FreeBSD trademark, but I think that desire is contrary to the long term best interests of FreeBSD. Whether or not you agree with this is irrelevant, until your constrants can stay in force, yet still result in a new installer being written. You are currently two years to the bad. Before you go off on a tear again, let me point out that I am _NOT_ offering to do a proprietary installer for commercial purposes myself, I am merely pointing out that it has been much longer than a year without a new installer, and had their terms been agreed to a year agao, FreeBSD would have its installer source code today, and under the terms you are insisting upon, up front. --- I'll tell you what I _am_ willing to do, assuming the project is willing to guarantee that they will commit the code (I could care less if they want to "clean it up" and pee on it to make it smell like them in the process, so long as there is a agreeable time limit on the process): o I'll fix the VFS stacking code; I've had working stacking without cache coherency problems sinmce 1996, the last time I tried to submit the patches, and the PTB insisted I dumb them down to the point that they then could complain that the changes were gratuitous because they didn't have the vision to keep their eyes on the goal instead of the process. o I'll update my UMSDOS stacking layer code; this will let you install a UNIX FS with correct metadata onto an MSDOS partition, and is the first step required to create a "test drive" version of FreeBSD that doesn't require partitioning. For me to do this, the VFS stacking code changes must first be committed to the source tree. o I'll update my QUOTA stacking layer code; this will let you apply quotas to any VFS layer, and not limit you to only using them in conjunction with FFS. Again, for me to do this, the VFS stacking code changes must first be committed to the source tree. o I'll provide specfs changes to support clone devices; I won't go so far as to force ytou to take the other changes I've made in this area (I currently run without a struct fileops, and specfs no longer exists, on one of my research systems; it lets me do things like change ownership on sockets and named pipes, like SVR4 and Linux can, and BSD can't -- but I won't force you to take that code). You will have to accept the cloning pty implementation sample code as part of this, so that I can be assured that no one will break things before the next phase is complete. o I'll fix the VMWARE problem that prevents more than one virtual machine running at the same time. For me to do this, the specfs changes must first be commited to the source tree. o I'll fix the root partition vs. mounted FS distinction abstraction, and move the mount overlay to higher level code, so that it isn't being duplicated per VFS, as it is now (and being omitted in some, making it impossible to boot from those partitions). o If a Windows based installer is committed to by the project, and someone is willing to tackle the FBSDBOOT.EXE mechanics, I'll provide an autorun.inf and the necessary Windows code examples to do a "test drive" install to an UMSDOS directory hierarchy. o If the project will commit to adding it to their archived files, and changing the package suffix, as well as modifying the MIME types on the FreeBSD web server to add a new type, and modifying the "helper" applications installed by default in the browser ports, I will provide code that lets you do "one click install" of ports from the FreeBSD web sites. I will give instructions and documentation, but the integration itself is up to other FreeBSD people. For me to do this, I will need not only project buy-in, but also buy-in from the FreeBSD web site administrator, and the browser ports maintainers. I would be doing this at pretty high opportunity cost, since my time is currently valued at around $120/hr, after taxes. So now it's your turn to "put up or shut up"; I _can't_ expend the effort on these things without a guarantee that that effort will not be wasted, like it was last time I spent the effort on these and similar projects on behalf of FreeBSD. I _can't_ afford to spend 40 hours doing one of these things (~$10,000, pre-tax), if I don't have some sort of commitment that that money won't be flushed down the toilet by the project. Ball's in your court. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 7: 6:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095EB37B4D7 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id eA3F6XM46373 ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:06:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA15031 ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:06:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:06:32 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? Message-ID: <20001103160632.G680@lpt.ens.fr> References: <7B1EED0C5D58D411B73200508BDE77B204DD1A@exchangeb.aubi.de> <20001102013448.B23799@citusc17.usc.edu> <96873.973243644@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <96873.973243644@winston.osd.bsdi.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Image size would be 460x60 or so (this seems typical) and a reasonable > number of frames, though they should also loop to give the viewer a > feeling of continuous action if possible. I'm interested in giving it a shot, but what about the GIF patent issue -- paying royalties to Unisys if one uses unlicensed software like the Gimp, and so on? I'm not really an artist, but I have done at least one piece of BSD art: http://sketch.sourceforge.net/gallery.html - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 7:19:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from c006.sfo.cp.net (c003-h000.c003.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8197037B479 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (cpmta 25811 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2000 07:19:26 -0800 Received: from DHCP-18.interclan.net (HELO maquina) (148.245.81.18) by smtp.avantel.net (209.228.32.214) with SMTP; 3 Nov 2000 07:19:26 -0800 X-Sent: 3 Nov 2000 15:19:26 GMT From: "Ignacio Cristerna" To: "Jordan Hubbard" , Subject: RE: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:19:17 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <96873.973243644@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Since this is a a good idea for the promotion of FreeBSD, I would like to contribute some piece of mexican craftsmanship to the guy who contributes the final version of the FreeBSD animated gif. Once the designer´s name is know, I´ll try to contact the designer to find out the best way to send this piece to her/him. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jordan Hubbard Sent: Viernes, 03 de Noviembre de 2000 03:27 To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? Image size would be 460x60 or so (this seems typical) and a reasonable number of frames, though they should also loop to give the viewer a feeling of continuous action if possible. This banner advert would then be used to promote the FreeBSD project on various open source web sites which run banner ads. I'm not going to mention specific sites at this stage since it's not a done-deal anywhere without an animated banner ad even available to run, but let's just say that the right banner would be put to immediate and reasonably prominent use. Since this is a FreeBSD project thing I also can't offer anyone any money, just the satisfaction of seeing your artwork in lights and the warm fuzzy glow that comes from helping to promote the FreeBSD cause. :-) Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 8:29:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flash.guest.net (unknown [195.103.69.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425EC37B4CF for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from flash.guest.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flash.guest.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA00787 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:31:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ftonti@guest.net) From: Fabio Tonti Reply-To: staff@guest.net Organization: GUEST srl To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Squared mouse on Xfree86 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:27:42 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00110400315102.00669@flash.guest.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG HI, I scuccessfully installed KDE xfree86 on a 4.1 freebsd. I have some trouble. 1. I have a Ps2 mouse. It runs, but the cursor is a white square !! 2. I have a S3 TRIO DX/2 CARD, but I cannot work with more than 60 Hertz. My monitor support until 90 Hz. How can I change the configuration ? (I tried whit /stand/sysintall) Regards Fabio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 8:41:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC4F37B4E5 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28433; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:41:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:41:15 -0500 From: Michael Lucas To: staff@guest.net Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Squared mouse on Xfree86 Message-ID: <20001103114115.A28412@blackhelicopters.org> References: <00110400315102.00669@flash.guest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <00110400315102.00669@flash.guest.net>; from ftonti@guest.net on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:27:42AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, You'll have better luck with this sort of question over on freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. Regards, Michael On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:27:42AM +0100, Fabio Tonti wrote: > HI, > I scuccessfully installed KDE xfree86 on a 4.1 freebsd. > > I have some trouble. > > 1. I have a Ps2 mouse. It runs, but the cursor is a white square !! > 2. I have a S3 TRIO DX/2 CARD, but I cannot work with more than 60 Hertz. My > monitor support until 90 Hz. > > How can I change the configuration ? > (I tried whit /stand/sysintall) > > Regards > Fabio > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 11:13:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7703637B479 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.96.179.209] (helo=daydream) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 13rmGt-0000XX-00; Fri, 03 Nov 2000 14:13:03 -0500 Received: from shannon by daydream with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13rmF2-00018c-00; Fri, 03 Nov 2000 14:11:08 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:11:08 -0500 From: Shannon Hendrix To: Bob Martin Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About introducing newbies to FreeBSD Message-ID: <20001103141107.B3708@widomaker.com> Mail-Followup-To: Bob Martin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3A009637.9491FE09@inu.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A009637.9491FE09@inu.net>; from bob@inu.net on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 04:16:23PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 04:16:23PM -0600, Bob Martin wrote: > Since most of our new users come to us from either Windows or Linux, we > need an installation program that is a lot more like the ones that > they've used in the past. I've often wondered how many users we loose > while they are trying to load the OS. What I would really like to see is > a FreeBSD installer on par with the UnixWare 7 or Tru64 5.0 installers. > (A clone of SCO Admin would be nice too!) Failing that, we probably need > something that looks more like a Linux installer, or a really good > rosetta stone. The ironic thing here is that ideas like "slices", which are so foreign to Linux users, are actually easier to me than the "normal" DOS partitioning scheme. Yes, the first systems I partitioned were UNIX, but I still have problems with DOS style partitioning even after 10 years of doing it. The problems I have with slices are really simple: * it's not PC hardware's "native" method * lot's of setup programs don't automatically calculate starts and offsets when you divide up a slice The first is merely annoying, the second means I have to get out a calculator and sometimes guess about starts (i.e. which sector is on the next boundary, etc). Most of this is fixed now, but it's still harder than the fully automated partitioning in an OS like Linux or BeOS. Somewhere else I read about the mail archives. They are good, but sometimes too much to read for simple answers. You might have to follow many and large threads to get the pieces of your answer. Ultimately, the FAQ is just a better place. Lot's of questions are not answered there. Of course part of the problem is the tremendous amount of work required to scan list archives and condense them into FAQ entries. Finally, I think a home network document would be really good. I know there are some out there, but they are either incomplete or just one person's solution. There really isn't anything official about this. I think a lot of people spend tremendous amounts of time on this, and probably a lot of them are not really well done (their setups I mean). It would be nice to find in one place: * how to choose network addresses * sendmail configuration for dynamic IPs so you can - have a gateway to the world - send mail to your "internal" machines - handle your queue sensibly - handle drop-boxes and MX records for your machine at an ISP - allow email to @ - local delivery - smart use of your smarthost * routing/networking - setting up a single machine or many with a single gateway - how to choose and use a local domain name, but still make sendmail happy and... all that stuff * bind setup for local domain and cache for the world * a nice default IPF setup that gives some basic protections * a set of template configs for NAT - cable modem - DSL - PPP via modem - whatever else there is That's all I can remember right now, and I can't find my journal on my local setup either. All of this can be found, but only after a lot of searching, and lot's of recommended setups in one area conflict with others you find. Right now I have things working, but I've never been able to really make sendmail happy, not completely. There are so many little issues that are so frustrating to nail down, many people just end up ignoring them. My machine has an MX record with my ISP, and delivers its mail via a drop box (username at ISP, same as machine name). It's little differences from the norm like this that are not well covered. It's frustrating to me because I can set this up for a permanently connected system without much problem. Everything pretty well works like you expect it to. But when you start dealing with a local private network connected via a dynamic network connection, a lot of UNIX software is more difficult to set up. After all, it's primarily designed with a permanent connection in mind. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 12: 8:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from puck.firepipe.net (mcut-b-167.resnet.purdue.edu [128.211.209.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CF937B4C5 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by puck.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 55EC319CD; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:08:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:08:28 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Haikal Saadh Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CounterStrike Message-ID: <20001103150828.Y27163@puck.firepipe.net> Reply-To: Will Andrews Mail-Followup-To: Will Andrews , Haikal Saadh , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 10:13:29PM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 10:13:29PM +1000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > One thing that does suck about games under FreeBSD is that you need to > buy Open Sound System. (Unless you want to reinstall it every 30 days). What are you talking about? `device pcm' works fine for me under 4.1-STABLE and has always. -- wca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 15:23:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6405237B479 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17103; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:20:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAgDaGdH; Fri Nov 3 16:20:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15469; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:23:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011032323.QAA15469@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: CounterStrike To: will@physics.purdue.edu Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:23:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: wyldephyre2@yahoo.com (Haikal Saadh), advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001103150828.Y27163@puck.firepipe.net> from "Will Andrews" at Nov 03, 2000 03:08:28 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > One thing that does suck about games under FreeBSD is that you need to > > buy Open Sound System. (Unless you want to reinstall it every 30 days). > > What are you talking about? `device pcm' works fine for me under > 4.1-STABLE and has always. Your device pcm has the FreeBSD sound card API. Most games require a specific sound card API. This API is supported natively in Linux, but FreeBSD does not support this API. To use this API, you must have third party (OSS) sound card drivers, or modify FreeBSD's API. When you suggest this to the sound driver people, they tend to get belligerant and talk about how their API is better than the Linux API. The OSS drivers are not free, they cost money, but you can use them in evaluation mode for 30 days at a pop, so if you want to play a game and not pay for the drivers, you have to reinstall them every 30 days (I personnaly call this "paying for the drivers in the most expensive way possible"). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 18: 0:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF7837B4CF for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA4201I15709; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:00:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: "Haikal Saadh" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CounterStrike In-Reply-To: Message from "Haikal Saadh" of "Fri, 03 Nov 2000 22:13:29 +1000." Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:00:01 -0800 Message-ID: <15706.973303201@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > One thing that does suck about games under FreeBSD is that you need to > buy Open Sound System. (Unless you want to reinstall it every 30 days). That's not true as a general statement. I've played a number of Loki's games using the stock audio driver. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 18:56:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694CC37B4D7 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA42uSI24445; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:56:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: ignacioc@avantel.net (Ignacio Cristerna), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installation: what to (not) do about it In-Reply-To: Message from Terry Lambert of "Fri, 03 Nov 2000 14:40:17 GMT." <200011031440.HAA16097@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:56:28 -0800 Message-ID: <24441.973306588@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > What ever happened to that huge amount of installer code that > > > The FreeBSD Project funded with that Russian(?) guy? > > > > 1. It wasn't the project who funded or really had much of anything to > > do with it, it was Walnut Creek CDROM > > > > 2. It wasn't a huge amount of code. > > > > 3. It's called libh and there's already a mailing list devoted to it > > and several volunteers devoted to its gradual improvement. Where > > have you been? One assumes you at least read the paper I did on > > the topic of installers where libh is also described fully. > > I scanned it. It wasn't posted widely to FreeBSD lists to which > I subscribe. I basically got to see a quoted, perhaps partial > copy of your posting. And yet you jump in and say it was inadequate when you admit you haven't even read it in detail. Hmmmmmm. FWIW, I do talk about ugrades in the paper and how to make them reversible and less potentially destructive since a lot of the barriers to a successful upgrade experience come from justifiable user fears about what happens if the process goes wrong on a production system. > I've tried doing code for FreeBSD before; other than trivial > things that it takes zero brains to understand, most of my > stuff hasn't made it past the commit filters, who insist on > being educated about everything, and appear to be unwilling to > go to college to get that education. This explanation just doesn't cut it, Terry, not did it cut it the last 5 or so times you used it. Many people seem to get past the "commit filters" just fine and perhaps the real answer is that they have a degree of perserverance and committment to achiving their goals that you simply lack. But we'll discuss that more in detail below. > On the subject of "counter to the goals of the FreeBSD project", > which goals are those, the goal of getting FreeBSD into the hands > of more people? The goal of improving the user experience? The > goal of ensuring that the install code is open source, and letting > it be called FreeBSD when it has soft updates code with it .. You seem to have this "thing" about the softupdates code which is entirely out of proportion to the actual reality. The reality is that Kirk allowed us to incorporate the code into FreeBSD and which meant that people could read it and hack on it, a significant part of those fundamenal goals I mentioned. The code wasn't initially free for "commercial use", though CD releases and a fairly broad spectrum of "commercial" activities were in fact allowed, but it was a bolt-on option which any user could freely use on a personal basis and many did. Those who didn't want to comply with the selective-use license simply didn't enable softupdates and their overall "FreeBSD experience" was not adversely impacted by this. That's why we felt that the trade-off, and one we did indeed debate rather seriously first, was worth it. What you were describing was a body of code for which the source code would NOT be available and to which people could not make general improvements. Not only that, but the overall "FreeBSD experience" would be substantially different for people using that installer from the point of their very first contact with the OS, a very different kettle of fish than soft updates which are essentially invisible to the naked eye (for 99.9% of what pass for "average users"). It is a complete mystery to me how you can fail to see the difference or even draw a parallel between the two technologies with a straight face. > I fully understand the desire to link the installer source code to > use of the FreeBSD trademark, but I think that desire is contrary > to the long term best interests of FreeBSD. The Caldera installer, which many people have drawn parallels to, is completely free and can be ftp'd from their site. Judging by the extreme number of similarities in the Red Hat installer, it also appears likely that at least one other major Linux vendor did exactly that. I therefore find it difficult to swallow your argument that an insistence on it being freely available is something which would be an absolute barrier to entry for any next-generation graphical installer. The empirical evidence available hardly supports such an assertion. > I am merely pointing out that it has been much longer than > a year without a new installer, and had their terms been agreed to > a year agao, FreeBSD would have its installer source code today, and > under the terms you are insisting upon, up front. And this is speculation masquerading as fact. You have no sure way of knowing that this would, in fact, have occurred or that "two FreeBSDs" would have even been widely accepted by the project contributors or the user community. I see it as far more likely that your mysterious commercial benefactors would have been deluged with demands that they open source their product immediately so that people could customize it and this might in turn have led to a siege mentality on their part and very poor results. You simply have no way of knowing for sure what you claim as fact above. > o I'll fix the VFS stacking code; I've had working stacking > without cache coherency problems sinmce 1996, the last That would be fine. You'll have to work with the other VFS folks, of course, since nobody gets carte blanche to play lone ranger in the code base and that's something that we all, including myself and anyone else with a committer's hat, has to live with. Still, if you're halfway personable about it and don't get high-handed or let your ego take precedence over good sense, I'm sure you'll be met with nothing but enthusiastic support for the idea. > o I'll update my UMSDOS stacking layer code; this will let you > install a UNIX FS with correct metadata onto an MSDOS > partition, and is the first step required to create a "test > drive" version of FreeBSD that doesn't require partitioning. > For me to do this, the VFS stacking code changes must first > be committed to the source tree. Fine too - we've even discussed this before and agreed that it's something which should be done. > o I'll update my QUOTA stacking layer code; this will let Good good. > can't -- but I won't force you to take that code). You > will have to accept the cloning pty implementation sample > code as part of this, so that I can be assured that no one > will break things before the next phase is complete. As long as that doesn't break all the clients of PTYs (and there is the long-standing and classic problem of how PTYs are allocated by walking vs a true PTY allocation mechanism), I'm sure nobody would argue with that either. > o I'll fix the VMWARE problem that prevents more than one Fine. > o I'll fix the root partition vs. mounted FS distinction Fine. > o If a Windows based installer is committed to by the project, If you commit to building one, I'm sure people will commit to using it. That's about the only "commitment" you can expect from an amorphous blob of developers led by an only slightly-less amorphous blob of core people and to expect anything more than that would be silly. More on that in a moment. > o If the project will commit to adding it to their archived > files, and changing the package suffix, as well as modifying > the MIME types on the FreeBSD web server to add a new type, Again, build a better mousetrap and they will come. Build a can opener masquerading as a mousetrap and expect the opposite reaction. You're not going to get advance buy-in for something nobody has ever seen or can even realistically quantify, but if you can in turn show that you're capable of more than just discussing how the future will be better under your aegis then you can expect that people will begin to take you and your proposals more seriously. This one seems a bit pie-in-the-sky to me, but I'm always willing to look at it. > So now it's your turn to "put up or shut up"; I _can't_ expend the > effort on these things without a guarantee that that effort will > not be wasted, like it was last time I spent the effort on these > and similar projects on behalf of FreeBSD. I _can't_ afford to Like I've told you many times, Terry, nobody gets a "guarantee" of anything in this project since it's not a kitchen appliance dealership which hands out limited customer guarantees along with every frigidair they sell. What you get is the chance to deal with a large group of people and try, through dint of effort and perserverance, to sell them on your ideas and (more importantly) your working code. Even if I wanted to change this as part of "putting up or shutting up" for you I could not since it's not in my power to beam hypno-rays directly into the brains of several hundred people and get them all to agree up front to buy a used car from you. That's something that you, and only you, can do. Same deal *everyone* else gets. In short, this is life, deal with it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 18:59:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A4037B479 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA42wbI24464; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:58:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? In-Reply-To: Message from Rahul Siddharthan of "Fri, 03 Nov 2000 16:06:32 +0100." <20001103160632.G680@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:58:37 -0800 Message-ID: <24460.973306717@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm interested in giving it a shot, but what about the GIF patent > issue -- paying royalties to Unisys if one uses unlicensed software > like the Gimp, and so on? That seems to have been a tempest in a teapot. I wouldn't particularly worry about it since nobody else appears to be doing that in the banner ads I'm seeing. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 19: 0: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA8137B479 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:00:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eA42xwI24858; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:59:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: "Ignacio Cristerna" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? In-Reply-To: Message from "Ignacio Cristerna" of "Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:19:17 CST." Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:59:58 -0800 Message-ID: <24855.973306798@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Since this is a a good idea for the promotion of FreeBSD, I would like to > contribute some piece of mexican craftsmanship to the guy who contributes > the final version of the FreeBSD animated gif. Once the designer´s name is > know, I´ll try to contact the designer to find out the best way to send this > piece to her/him. Thanks, that's a very generous offer. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 3 20: 8:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.class.com (mail.class.com [207.91.36.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB93737B4CF for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from cab.elwood.net (lnk2-ogorman-1.binary.net [216.229.11.158]) by mail.class.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6996059219 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:08:36 -0600 (CST) Received: by cab.elwood.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1BA3B996BB; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:08:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:08:34 -0600 From: Jim To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CounterStrike Message-ID: <20001103220834.A552@elwood.net> References: <15706.973303201@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <15706.973303201@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 06:00:01PM -0800 X-Whaa: You read headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 06:00:01PM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > One thing that does suck about games under FreeBSD is that you need to > > buy Open Sound System. (Unless you want to reinstall it every 30 days). > > That's not true as a general statement. I've played a number of > Loki's games using the stock audio driver. That is correct. Both Loki games in the ports tree play audio fine without any changes to the game or your system. -- Jim O'Gorman jameso@elwood.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 4 3: 0:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bne004m.webcentral.com.au (bne004m.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BC5A37B479 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 03:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17074 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2000 11:00:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (203.147.163.11) by bne004m.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 4 Nov 2000 11:00:35 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Will Andrews" Cc: Subject: RE: CounterStrike Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:04:24 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20001103150828.Y27163@puck.firepipe.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oh okay, the loki website and the how-to's I've read mention you need OSS, I might give it a shot without them, tho. -----Original Message----- From: will@puck.firepipe.net [mailto:will@puck.firepipe.net]On Behalf Of Will Andrews Sent: Saturday, 4 November 2000 6:08 AM To: Haikal Saadh Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CounterStrike On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 10:13:29PM +1000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > One thing that does suck about games under FreeBSD is that you need to > buy Open Sound System. (Unless you want to reinstall it every 30 days). What are you talking about? `device pcm' works fine for me under 4.1-STABLE and has always. -- wca . QUIT wca . QUIT To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 4 4: 9:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A026937B479 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 04:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id eA4C9DM16973 ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:09:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA58206 ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:09:12 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:09:12 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? Message-ID: <20001104130912.B57240@lpt.ens.fr> References: <24460.973306717@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <24460.973306717@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 06:58:37PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard said on Nov 3, 2000 at 18:58:37: > > I'm interested in giving it a shot, but what about the GIF patent > > issue -- paying royalties to Unisys if one uses unlicensed software > > like the Gimp, and so on? > > That seems to have been a tempest in a teapot. I wouldn't particularly > worry about it since nobody else appears to be doing that in the banner > ads I'm seeing. Well, if you say so... I'll think about what sort of animation, etc. Any suggestions? Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 4 9:23:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD25337B4C5 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13s70i-0000ha-00; Sat, 04 Nov 2000 10:21:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3A0445A8.8C84AA9B@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 10:21:44 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jordan Hubbard , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? References: <24460.973306717@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20001104130912.B57240@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Jordan Hubbard said on Nov 3, 2000 at 18:58:37: > > > I'm interested in giving it a shot, but what about the GIF patent > > > issue -- paying royalties to Unisys if one uses unlicensed software > > > like the Gimp, and so on? > > > > That seems to have been a tempest in a teapot. I wouldn't particularly > > worry about it since nobody else appears to be doing that in the banner > > ads I'm seeing. > > Well, if you say so... > I'll think about what sort of animation, etc. Any suggestions? A daemon stabbing a penguin with a pitchfork? Oh, sorry. /me takes off his "BillF" mask... -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 4 11:20: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C59D37B4E5 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1DCE61C41; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:19:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:19:54 -0500 From: Bill Fumerola To: Wes Peters Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Jordan Hubbard , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any artists interested in doing a FreeBSD animated GIF banner? Message-ID: <20001104141954.W37870@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <24460.973306717@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20001104130912.B57240@lpt.ens.fr> <3A0445A8.8C84AA9B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3A0445A8.8C84AA9B@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:21:44AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:21:44AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > Well, if you say so... > > I'll think about what sort of animation, etc. Any suggestions? > > A daemon stabbing a penguin with a pitchfork? > > Oh, sorry. > > /me takes off his "BillF" mask... http://people.freebsd.org/~billf/bsdcon2000/pictures/daemon-versus-tux/ All someone has to do is shrink it down... :-> -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 4 19:40: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blue.misnet.com (unknown [204.177.124.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E5A37B479 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:40:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from misnet.com (charlie@port1082.jxn.netdoor.com [208.148.209.182]) by blue.misnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26687; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:39:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A04C9B0.811803CA@misnet.com> Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 20:45:04 -0600 From: Charlie X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Terry Lambert , Ignacio Cristerna , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installation: what to (not) do about it References: <24441.973306588@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG No quote, just an addition to what's been said about licensing of the new installer: If a new licensing model applied to the New Installer during its first year of incorporation into FreeBSD, we could do something Redhat-ish in having two installers during that first year: the new one, and the old dialogue one. The new one, I assume, will be graphical, and if the hardcore 80x25 folks want something text-based, they can still use the old one. This approach would also allow us to have wide distribution (i.e. beta testing) of the new installer without forcing people to use it until it's proven stable. This first year, under any license, would pass VERY quickly (esp. WRT the dialogue alternative), and we're likely to see more coders interested in it if there's a beta included with every Official FreeBSD CD set. This could serve as the proof-of-concept that Terry said was necessary for adoption among developers. This doesn't answer the question of 'Who will start?', but it makes the answer a little less critical, because if we have two concurrent install methods, it won't be so important to have a 100% polished GUI installer before it starts shipping. Comments, please :-) -Charlie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message