From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 4 8: 3:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799A837BA2D for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 12ybG2-0008ts-00; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:20:06 +0100 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.12 #7) id 12ybG2-0004E8-00; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:20:06 +0100 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:20:06 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porter's Handbook category violations Message-ID: <20000604152006.C42325@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <20000603215053.B65314@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > >>> which ones should be repo-copied to security/ and then have their "net" > > Another dumb question, but what is a repo-copy? I understand it has > something to do with CVS, but not much more thna that. Short for repository copy, but you probably knew that. It basically means you copy file directly in the repository, i.e. # cd /home/ncvs/src/foo # cp foo,v bar,v Or in the case mentioned above, whole directories are copied. The purpose is to preserve the history in the CVS logs. If you just did a "cvs add" in the new location, that history would not be present in the new file, and you'd have to get the old file from the Attic to see it. If files in the Attic were deleted, that history would be gone forever. This has been asked before recently -- perhaps someone who can explain it better than me could send-pr a patch to add it to the "miscellaneous questions" section of the FAQ (it seems to fit in well there with the "what is an MFC" question, etc). If no-one wants to I might do it myself. -- Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 4 10: 1:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF1E37B806 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 10:01:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (p3E9C1175.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.117]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29420; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:01:33 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B269AC30; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:02:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 76BE614A44; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:00:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:00:59 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Troy Settle , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000604190059.C11456@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Gregory Sutter , Troy Settle , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000602152258.A17903@azazel.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000602152258.A17903@azazel.zer0.org>; from gsutter@zer0.org on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 03:22:58PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Gregory Sutter (gsutter@zer0.org): > and "Beastie" (BSD) is apropos (and what Kirk uses; see > http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/). Pick either. Hmm. If Kirk chooses "Beastie" as the name, its name _is_ "Beastie". Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 4 12:15:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC0E37B576 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.89.82]) by mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000604201435.DHMJ10065.mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain> for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:14:35 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01854 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:14:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:14:59 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000604201459.C236@parish> References: <8guf6j$19ja$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200005301023.MAA07714@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005301023.MAA07714@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de on Tue, May 30, 2000 at 12:23:14PM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 12:23:14PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > In list.freebsd-chat Alexander Langer wrote: > > I gonna go to a 500 guys LAN-Party this weekend and I still need the > > right T-Shirt for this event. > > > > Since there will be probably many Linux guys, I need a pretty cool > > FreeBSD T-Shirt, maybe even Chuck Killing Tux and then a big > > "FreeBSD - there can be only one" or something :-) > > Maybe this is something for you: > http://www.fromme.com/chuck_and_tux.jpg > > The drawing was made by a friend of mine. It's not perfect, > and I'm sure Kirk McKusick would not like it, You are correct, he would not like it. From http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/copyright.html "Individuals may use the daemon for their personal use within the bounds of good taste (an example of bad taste was a picture of the BSD daemon blowtorching a Solaris logo)." > but it's the > kind you were asking for... ;-) > > Regards > Oliver > > -- > Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany > (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) > > "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" > (Terry Pratchett) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 4 13: 3:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hellasnet.gr (mail.hellasnet.gr [212.54.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 145D437B52A for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from charon (ppp1.patr.hellasnet.gr [212.54.197.16]) by mail.hellasnet.gr (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA15638; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 22:02:27 +0200 (GMT) From: "Giorgos Keramidas" To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Subject: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:04:41 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3939F26A.A405DD4A@mail.ptd.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> "Unix" (whatever it means in this context) may not have >> come up with an undelete command, but Norton Computing >> (now part of Symantec) did. The Norton Utilities for Unix >> never sold very well, but had this feature. > > I hadn't heard of that. How did it work? You can not rely on the underlying OS to have a journaling filesystem. Then, unless you use some form of "trash bin", you can not safely undelete anything. This is admittedly tricky, because even if you move the files in special directories under /tmp or /home/$USER, you can't safely implement a trash bin that works nicely across filesystem boundaries. So, I'm also very interested to know how they had implemented such a feature. Anybody with more knowledge on the topic? -- Giorgos Keramidas - mailto:charon@sabotage.gr "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the BSD spirit" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 4 18:37: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jlu.edu.cn (mail.jlu.edu.cn [202.198.16.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CF237BB8D for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cyh@theory.jlu.edu.cn) Received: from theory.jlu.edu.cn ([202.198.21.80]) by mail.jlu.edu.cn (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA1A30 for <@mail.jlu.edu.cn:freebsd-chat@freebsd.org>; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:42:19 +0800 Received: by theory.jlu.edu.cn (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for @mail.jlu.edu.cn:freebsd-chat@freebsd.org id AA02689; Tue, 7 Jun 00 01:38:12 +0900 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2000 01:38:11 +0900 (SDT) From: Subject: dose i810 support X window on freebsd? To: FreeBSD chat maillist Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Help! Help! I have installed FreeBSD in a PC, which has a i810 chipset main board. God damed i810! I can't setup X windows... How can I do? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 4 19:27:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nyct.net (bsd4.nyct.net [204.141.86.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5B237B6D7; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:27:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from efutch@nyct.net) Received: from bsd1.nyct.net (efutch@bsd1.nyct.net [204.141.86.3]) by mail.nyct.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA92087; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 22:27:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from efutch@nyct.net) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 22:27:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric D. Futch" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: XFree86 + ELSA GLoria Synergy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does any one have an ELSA GLoria Synergy 8MB PCI working under XFree86 (any version) on Alpha? I can't seem to get it to work at all. XFree86 3.3.6 causes garbage on the screen then a reboot. XFree86 4.0 won't start at all. Just wondering... -- Eric Futch New York Connect.Net, Ltd. efutch@nyct.net Technical Support Staff http://www.nyct.net (212) 293-2620 "Bringing New York The Internet Access It Deserves" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 2: 1:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45BE37B793 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 02:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (p3E9D3897.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.157.56.151]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16151; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:47:56 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C18DAC30; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:48:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8896D14A9A; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:47:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:47:44 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000605104744.A1670@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <8guf6j$19ja$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200005301023.MAA07714@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000604201459.C236@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000604201459.C236@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 08:14:59PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Mark Ovens (mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org): > "Individuals may use the daemon for their personal use within > the bounds of good taste (an example of bad taste was a > picture of the BSD daemon blowtorching a Solaris logo)." Hmm. Blowtorching is - in fact - bad taste, but that picture is not that bad. I weared this T-Shirt and all Linux-folks who saw that laughed about it and said, it was funny :-P Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 2:10:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBD837BBAB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 02:10:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02627; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:10:15 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:10:13 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 4 Jun 2000, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > >Brett Glass wrote: > >> > >> "Unix" (whatever it means in this context) may not have > >> come up with an undelete command, but Norton Computing > >> (now part of Symantec) did. The Norton Utilities for Unix > >> never sold very well, but had this feature. > > > > I hadn't heard of that. How did it work? > > You can not rely on the underlying OS to have a journaling > filesystem. Then, unless you use some form of "trash bin", > you can not safely undelete anything. > > This is admittedly tricky, because even if you move the files > in special directories under /tmp or /home/$USER, you can't > safely implement a trash bin that works nicely across filesystem > boundaries. > > So, I'm also very interested to know how they had implemented > such a feature. Anybody with more knowledge on the topic? > I don't know how they implemented it - but I would start with a daemon running as root to which both the "delete" and "undelete" commands speak to. -- > Giorgos Keramidas - mailto:charon@sabotage.gr > "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the BSD spirit" > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 3:14:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BCB37BD50 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 03:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12ytsP-000Ow5-00; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 12:12:57 +0200 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:12:57 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Joe Walsh Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000605121257.A95658@mithrandr.moria.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from crli@crli.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 01:15:11PM -0500 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2000-06-01 (13:15), Joe Walsh wrote: > When I was doing freelance writing, my editor required that all > electronic manuscripts be submitted with 1 space following each > sentence, rather than 2. I believe the typographical layout software > (such as Quark) then figures out how much actual space to put after > the punctuation based on the needs of the line as it will be printed. How does it know whether it's the end of a sentence or an end of an abbreviation? "I don't know Jordan K. Hubbard is the only one you've reported." "I don't know Jordan K. Hubbard is the only one you've reported." Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 4:15:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C3137B758 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 04:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA10773; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:16:08 +0300 (IDT) Received: from localhost (nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA00945; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:16:08 +0300 (IDT) X-Authentication-Warning: csd.cs.technion.ac.il: nadav owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:16:07 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Joe Walsh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) In-Reply-To: <20000605121257.A95658@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Thu 2000-06-01 (13:15), Joe Walsh wrote: > > When I was doing freelance writing, my editor required that all > > electronic manuscripts be submitted with 1 space following each > > sentence, rather than 2. I believe the typographical layout software > > (such as Quark) then figures out how much actual space to put after > > the punctuation based on the needs of the line as it will be printed. > > How does it know whether it's the end of a sentence or an end of an > abbreviation? > > "I don't know Jordan K. Hubbard is the only one you've reported." > > "I don't know Jordan K. Hubbard is the only one you've reported." LaTeX, for example, assumes a period followed by any amount of whitespace and an upper-case letter is an end of a sentence. Thus, your sentence above would have to be written as: "I don't know Jordan K.\ Hubbard is the only one you've reported. (i.e., escaping the space after the period). > > Neil > -- > Neil Blakey-Milner > Sunesi Clinical Systems > nbm@mithrandr.moria.org > > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 4:41:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 135F937BCCB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 04:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 51609 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2000 11:41:12 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 5 Jun 2000 11:41:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 15579 invoked by uid 211); 5 Jun 2000 11:41:10 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:11:10 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Nadav Eiron Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Joe Walsh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000605171109.A15553@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000605121257.A95658@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from nadav@cs.Technion.AC.IL on Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 02:16:07PM +0300 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nadav Eiron said on Jun 5, 2000 at 14:16:07: > > > On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > > On Thu 2000-06-01 (13:15), Joe Walsh wrote: > > > When I was doing freelance writing, my editor required that all > > > electronic manuscripts be submitted with 1 space following each > > > sentence, rather than 2. I believe the typographical layout software > > > (such as Quark) then figures out how much actual space to put after > > > the punctuation based on the needs of the line as it will be printed. > > > > How does it know whether it's the end of a sentence or an end of an > > abbreviation? > > > > "I don't know Jordan K. Hubbard is the only one you've reported." > > > > "I don't know Jordan K. Hubbard is the only one you've reported." > > LaTeX, for example, assumes a period followed by any amount of whitespace > and an upper-case letter is an end of a sentence. Thus, your sentence > above would have to be written as: > "I don't know Jordan K.\ Hubbard is the only one you've reported. > (i.e., escaping the space after the period). Actually, no. What it assumes is that a period after a lowercase letter is the end of a sentence, and a period after an uppercase letter is not. So the escaping above will do nothing, and if K. is not the end of the sentence, nothing is required to be done. But if K is the end of the sentence, you have to tell it that explicitly, with (iirc) a \@ before the full stop. (Can't remember because that's never happened to me...) On the other hand, when the period after a lowercase letter is not the end of the sentence (eg Mr. Jordan Hubbard), you do have to tell it explicitly as in Mr.\ Jordan Hubbard). I'd be astonished if Quark can get it right purely by whether it's one or two spaces, and even more astonished if the users get it right at their end. This kind of thing would require a lot of editorial intervention. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 5:13:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (rdu25-28-177.nc.rr.com [24.25.28.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E577F37B616 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 05:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abc@firehouse.net) Received: (qmail 27928 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Jun 2000 12:13:34 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 08:13:34 -0400 From: Alan Clegg To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) Message-ID: <20000605081334.C25970@ecto.greenpeas.org> References: <3939F26A.A405DD4A@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr on Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 11:04:41PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Out of the ether, Giorgos Keramidas spewed forth the following bitstream: > So, I'm also very interested to know how they had implemented > such a feature. Anybody with more knowledge on the topic? alias rm 'mv $* ~/.dustbin' AlanC -- \ Alan B. Clegg Just because I can \ abc@firehouse.net does not mean I will. \ \ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 6: 3:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr (diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr [150.140.141.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A2E337B507 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 06:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from charon@sabotage.gr) Received: (qmail 17484 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2000 13:00:33 -0000 Received: from pc-a1.cc.ceid.upatras.gr (HELO pcA1) (150.140.140.133) by diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr with SMTP; 5 Jun 2000 13:00:33 -0000 Message-ID: <001501bfceee$34cb9a00$858c8c96@win2000.cc.ceid.upatras.gr> From: "Charon" To: "Alan Clegg" , "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: References: <3939F26A.A405DD4A@mail.ptd.net> <20000605081334.C25970@ecto.greenpeas.org> Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:01:46 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apparently, Alan Clegg wrote: > Out of the ether, Giorgos Keramidas spewed forth the following bitstream: > > So, I'm also very interested to know how they had implemented > > such a feature. Anybody with more knowledge on the topic? > > alias rm 'mv $* ~/.dustbin' Oh, I know. I know. I had thought of this, but then I thought of a setup where /usr is mounted from a different filesystem that the root filesystem, and this alias is executed by the superuser. There is no real way to recover all the information of the original file, since i-node, modification and access times, etc. are meta-data some of which will be changed and lost in some way during a move. Anyway, I think this has gone faar away from the original thread, on "stupid" users and what else. /me stops To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 6:21:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD5237BC46 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 06:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA32505; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:20:25 +0300 (IDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:20:25 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Charon Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) Message-ID: <20000605162025.A32447@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <3939F26A.A405DD4A@mail.ptd.net> <20000605081334.C25970@ecto.greenpeas.org> <001501bfceee$34cb9a00$858c8c96@win2000.cc.ceid.upatras.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <001501bfceee$34cb9a00$858c8c96@win2000.cc.ceid.upatras.gr>; from charon@sabotage.gr on Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:01:46PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 04:01:46PM +0300, Charon wrote: > > > Out of the ether, Giorgos Keramidas spewed forth the following bitstream: > > > So, I'm also very interested to know how they had implemented > > > such a feature. Anybody with more knowledge on the topic? > > > > alias rm 'mv $* ~/.dustbin' > > Oh, I know. I know. > I had thought of this, but then I thought of a setup where /usr is > mounted from a different filesystem that the root filesystem, and > this alias is executed by the superuser. I suppose one way to do it would be to replace rm by the following scheme: - every filesystem holds a .dustbin directory at the root of the filesystem; - the .dustbin directory includes symlinks of the kind .dustbin/originaldir-originalname --> .dustbin/43265 and hardlinks of .dustbin/43265 to the file with inode 43265. - alias rm newrm - newrm, before unlink'ing a file, backsteps the current directory until it finds the mount point of the filesystem. It can do this by using statfs for instance, and comparing fs id's in it. When it finds the mount point, it goes into .dustbin in it and plants both the hardlink to the file being deleted (if it's not yet there), and the symlink which preserves the current name being deleted and directory. - undelete dirname/filename finds the mount point of fs dirname is supposed to reside in, goes into .dustbin, searches for the symlink, retrieves the hardlink, and hardlinks the original name in the original dir to it, and deletes the symlink. When there are no more dustbin symlinks left pointing at this hardlink, it deletes the dustbin hardlink. This is just something which occurred to me as I read this thread today, I never actually tried it. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 7:40:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC3037BC94 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 07:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 20B9D9B02; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:40:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002501bfcefc$046dd310$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: References: <001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan><200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com><393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net><20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in><011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan><20000603225029.A13363@physics.iisc.ernet.in><001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3.0.6.32.20000604003206.008bb210@mail85.pair.com> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:40:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am subscribed to the list, so the cc is unnecessary. ;-) Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 13:22:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00D037B817 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:22:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15013; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:21:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000605142053.04aa2ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 14:21:23 -0600 To: Narvi , Giorgos Keramidas From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:10 AM 6/5/2000, Narvi wrote: >I don't know how they implemented it - but I would start with a daemon >running as root to which both the "delete" and "undelete" commands speak >to. I'd do it with an lkm that hooked syscalls. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 15:14:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E99A37BF29 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip5.berlin70.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.70.5] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #1) id 12z58Y-00060Y-00; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:14:23 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id B881F226D; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:14:07 +0200 (CEST) To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) References: <3939F26A.A405DD4A@mail.ptd.net> <20000605081334.C25970@ecto.greenpeas.org> <001501bfceee$34cb9a00$858c8c96@win2000.cc.ceid.upatras.gr> <20000605162025.A32447@happy.checkpoint.com> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 06 Jun 2000 00:14:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: Anatoly Vorobey's message of "Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:20:25 +0300" Message-ID: Lines: 48 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey writes: > I suppose one way to do it would be to replace rm by the following > scheme: > > - every filesystem holds a .dustbin directory at the root of the > filesystem; > - the .dustbin directory includes symlinks of the kind > .dustbin/originaldir-originalname --> .dustbin/43265 > > and hardlinks of .dustbin/43265 to the file with inode 43265. [...] You would also have to handle the case that multiple instances of the same pathname get removed, so a kind of versioning scheme would be needed. And, of course, a wrapper for the unlink(2) and rmdir(2) system calls to catch other programs than just rm(1). You might want to have this configurable per file system or per directory hierarchy, so that large builds with lots of /tmp files don't clutter your disk space. With respect to the versioning scheme: If a directory hierarchy is rapidly changing for whatever reason, it might be useful to maintain a log *when* which file was deleted, in order to be able to restore a consistent state of a certain time in the past. Besides the well-known "rm * .o" kind there are also errors like "echo 'test:*:101:20:test account:/home/test:/bin/sh' > /etc/passwd" where ">>" was meant. Should the same level of protection apply to file that are accidentally overwritten? True story: The parser of a make-like build tool had the bug that it would not read the last character of the last line of the Makefile if there was no terminating newline character. Guess what happened: Someone had a "clean" rule last in his Makefile, like this: clean: -rm -f $(TARGET) *.o core *~ -- without a terminating newline. Oops. Yes, he DID complain. (That was the shape(1) program of the shapeTools SCM tookit. I re-implemented the parser the same year and made *very* sure I wasn't hit by the same bug.) -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 15:36:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974D437BDE4 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA84895; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <393C2B02.92501941@owp.csus.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 15:34:42 -0700 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: DSFUG , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Davis/Sacramento FreeBSD Users Group Meeting Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Davis/Sacramento FreeBSD Users Group meeting for June 2000 is this Wednesday, the 7th at 7pm. So if you are into BSD (or want to talk to those that are) and live (or are visting) in the greater Davis/Sacramento area we look forward to seeing you on the 7th. For information on our mailing list and directions on how to get to the meeting check out the web site at : http://www.freebsd.davis.ca.us/ -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 15:41:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0982A37B68C for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:41:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06848; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23427; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23420; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:40:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:40:52 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Brett Glass Cc: Narvi , Giorgos Keramidas , "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000605142053.04aa2ee0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > I'd do it with an lkm that hooked syscalls. DOS did deletioning by zeroing the first character of the file name and undeleted it by giving that character a value again. I do not know FFS implements unlink, but how difficult would something on the same level be? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 17:26:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D60937BE68 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA50922; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:26:21 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd3VRwEa; Mon Jun 5 17:26:19 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01410; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:26:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006060026.RAA01410@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:26:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jun 02, 2000 05:30:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 11:58 AM 6/2/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Please cite an English textbook on this, > > See > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767903722/ref=ed_oe_p/002-9186126-2223249 "WiReD" magazine is not very authoritative. > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201339854/ref=sim_books/002-9186126-2223249 I would be more likely to accept this as a source, if it in fact has anything to say on the subject. Realize, however, that AP is likely to treat text as source code for typesetting, as opposed to an end in itself. Going to http://wire.ap.org/ confirms that their wire format uses single spaces following periods. > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226103897/wedwordcom/002-9186126-2223249 My copy of the Chicago Manual of Style shows two spaces following periods. > >rather than some stupid > >MBA book, and I'll refrain from citing MBA books on how code > >should be written. > > I'd think that an "MBA book," as you call it, is much more likely > to be an authority on business correspondence than on programming. My problem with taking an MBA book to be authoritative is that such a book is unlikely to be authoritative on written English. I'd be more willing to accept the authority of an English professor on English. MBA professors will undoubtedly know more about business that English professors, but we are not disucssing business, we are discussing English. > Also, here are some links to style guides around the Web, all > of which say that it is desirable to use one space after a period > that ends a sentence. (These are only the results of a brief search; > I'm sure there are many more.) > > http://webster.commnet.edu/apa/apa_spacing.htm Psychologists, not English professors. ... Altavista claims to have found 492 documents contradicting the documents you list. > http://www.the-efa.org/news/gramglean.html#onespace This one actually supports two spaces. It calls the use of one space "a case of collective cultural amnesia". 8-). http://www.mla.org/style/faq_5.htm http://www.richmond.edu/~writing/wweb/mladocu.html http://www.english.udel.edu/mkvande/Paper_Requirements.html ... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 17:53:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jlu.edu.cn (mail.jlu.edu.cn [202.198.16.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B65337B7DB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cyh@theory.jlu.edu.cn) Received: from theory.jlu.edu.cn ([202.198.21.80]) by mail.jlu.edu.cn (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA3200; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:59:16 +0800 Received: by theory.jlu.edu.cn (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for @mail.jlu.edu.cn:freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG id AA04490; Wed, 8 Jun 00 00:55:14 +0900 Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2000 00:54:59 +0900 (SDT) From: Subject: Re: dose i810 support X window on freebsd? To: Jonathan Chen Cc: FreeBSD chat maillist In-Reply-To: <20000606084714.A37446@jonc.ntdns.wilsonandhorton.co.n> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jonathan Chen wrote: > On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:38:11AM +0900, cyh@theory.jlu.edu.cn wrote: > > Help! Help! > > I have installed FreeBSD in a PC, which has a i810 chipset main > > board. God damed i810! I can't setup X windows... How can I do? > > Wait and hope that the next XFree86 release comes up with it. > Just like I do. > -- > Jonathan Chen > I also download the i810 graphics driver for linux, is it useful? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 18:10:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90EAB37BEE3; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21036; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 01:46:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05015; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:13:14 GMT (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:13:14 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Greg Lehey Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Message-ID: <20000605221314.B4925@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <8h8snk$1irg$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> <20000603111107.B30249@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000603111107.B30249@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:11:07AM +0930 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Also sent to -doc -- for their benefit, this cropped up in a discussion on punctuation on the docs which appears to have kicked off in -chat ] On Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:11:07AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >From each other? So you can differntiate between open and close. > German has the same concept, except that the opening quotes are (used > to be, anyway) at the bottom of the line: ,,Lass' es sein'', sagte er. FWIW, soemething on my list of things to do sometime is go through the docs the doc/ tree, and replace instances of “ ... ” with ... The stylesheets can then turn these into quotes more appropriate for the language concerned. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 18:24:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1AB137B7E8 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA43600; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 04:24:12 +0300 (IDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 04:24:12 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) Message-ID: <20000606042412.A43514@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <3939F26A.A405DD4A@mail.ptd.net> <20000605081334.C25970@ecto.greenpeas.org> <001501bfceee$34cb9a00$858c8c96@win2000.cc.ceid.upatras.gr> <20000605162025.A32447@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jnickelsen@acm.org on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:14:07AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:14:07AM +0200, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > Anatoly Vorobey writes: > > > I suppose one way to do it would be to replace rm by the following > > scheme: > > > > - every filesystem holds a .dustbin directory at the root of the > > filesystem; > > - the .dustbin directory includes symlinks of the kind > > .dustbin/originaldir-originalname --> .dustbin/43265 > > > > and hardlinks of .dustbin/43265 to the file with inode 43265. > [...] > > You would also have to handle the case that multiple instances of > the same pathname get removed, so a kind of versioning scheme would > be needed. I'd just use inode as the unique identifier. Thus links in .dustbin will look like origdir-origname-inode-->inode, and inode hardlinked to the actual file. Slashes are encoded in origdir somehow, etc. When looking to undelete origdir-origname, search for origdir-origname-* in .dustbin, and using inode hardlinks present helpful information to the user about sizes, times, etc. of different candidates for undeletion. > And, of course, a wrapper for the unlink(2) and rmdir(2) > system calls to catch other programs than just rm(1). Well, that demands kernel level intervention (because of the static binaries), I was trying to explicitly show something that only uses user-mode code. But yes, simple wrappers for syscalls are possible, which will relegate to user-mode the actual handling, for robustness. > You might want > to have this configurable per file system or per directory > hierarchy, so that large builds with lots of /tmp files don't > clutter your disk space. I agree. Could be a usermode-visible mount option which newrm(1) or syscalls wrappers check. Per-directory configuration seems too bothersome to be worth it, though one can kludge away something like touch $dir/.dontundeletefileshere. > With respect to the versioning scheme: If a directory hierarchy is > rapidly changing for whatever reason, it might be useful to maintain > a log *when* which file was deleted, in order to be able to restore > a consistent state of a certain time in the past. The log is simply there in inode, isn't its access time changed when a directory entry to it is unlinked? If not, it can be made to change. Since the inode is effectively being frozen when the file is "deleted", the only reference to it staying in .dustbin, this information is available later for undeletion considerations. > "echo 'test:*:101:20:test account:/home/test:/bin/sh' > /etc/passwd" > where ">>" was meant. Should the same level of protection apply to > file that are accidentally overwritten? This sounds too complicated. Well, OK, how about this -- catch ftruncate's to zero size, and clone the file in such cases, storing it in .dustbin in a similar fashion to above. Don't even start talking about mmap'ed files, please :) > The parser of a make-like build tool had the bug that it would not > read the last character of the last line of the Makefile if there > was no terminating newline character. Guess what happened: Someone > had a "clean" rule last in his Makefile, like this: > > clean: > -rm -f $(TARGET) *.o core *~ Ouch! Thanks, it was a good one. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 19:24:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C754C37B7F2 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:24:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19180; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:24:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000605201724.04a17ea0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:24:00 -0600 To: James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) Cc: Narvi , Giorgos Keramidas , "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000605142053.04aa2ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:40 PM 6/5/2000, James Howard wrote: >> I'd do it with an lkm that hooked syscalls. > >DOS did deletioning by zeroing the first character of the file name and >undeleted it by giving that character a value again. It was able to do this because directory entries were in a linear list and were not immediately reused. Unfortunately, if a file had a single-letter name, its directory entry could not be recovered. After the system had been running for awhile, disk space for new files was allocated at the "end" of the disk. This increased recoverability of a file's data clusters at the expense of fragmentation. Unfortunately, deleted files eventually DID get "clobbered," and you never knew when this would occur. (It was more probable that deleted files would get clobbered after an intervening reboot, since the search for free space was restarted at the "beginning" of the disk at boot time.) In short, undeletion under DOS was a kludge and somewhat of a black art. An undelete system should be more reliable than this. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 19:36:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F34837B7DB for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19303; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:35:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000605202431.04a0f100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:35:45 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200006060026.RAA01410@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:26 PM 6/5/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >"WiReD" magazine is not very authoritative. Their style guide is quite good and covers areas that references written before the start of the "Digital Age" do not address. I think that if you read it (check any bookstore there in the Bay Area) you'll gain respect for it. >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201339854/ref=sim_books/002-9186126-2223249 > >I would be more likely to accept this as a source, if it in fact >has anything to say on the subject. Realize, however, that AP >is likely to treat text as source code for typesetting, as opposed >to an end in itself. Going to http://wire.ap.org/ confirms that >their wire format uses single spaces following periods. It's perfectly legitimate to treat text as source code for typesetting. At one time, that was all it was for! >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226103897/wedwordcom/002-9186126-2223249 > >My copy of the Chicago Manual of Style shows two spaces following >periods. How old is your copy? >My problem with taking an MBA book to be authoritative is that >such a book is unlikely to be authoritative on written English. >I'd be more willing to accept the authority of an English >professor on English. MBA professors will undoubtedly know >more about business that English professors, but we are not >disucssing business, we are discussing English. I was under the impression that we were discussing business English. >> Also, here are some links to style guides around the Web, all >> of which say that it is desirable to use one space after a period >> that ends a sentence. (These are only the results of a brief search; >> I'm sure there are many more.) >> >> http://webster.commnet.edu/apa/apa_spacing.htm > >Psychologists, not English professors. The APA Style Guide is widely respected as a guide for scholarly papers in EVERY field of study -- including English. It is the gold standard for academics everywhere. It mandates a single space after all punctuation with the exception of a colon used in a ratio. >> http://www.the-efa.org/news/gramglean.html#onespace > >This one actually supports two spaces. It calls the use >of one space "a case of collective cultural amnesia". 8-). Reread this piece carefully. You'll see that she attributes a lack of knowledge of WHY the change in conventions has occurred to "a case of collective cultural amnesia." She approves of the shift to one space. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 5 22:55:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20CCC37B61A for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:55:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA84342; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:55:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <393C9255.15612D66@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:55:33 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gh Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE References: <001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan><200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com><393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net><20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in><011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan><20000603225029.A13363@physics.iisc.ernet.in><001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3.0.6.32.20000604003206.008bb210@mail85.pair.com> <002501bfcefc$046dd310$2969a0d0@leviathan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gh wrote: > > I am subscribed to the list, so the cc is unnecessary. It's a long standing tradition on internet mailing lists to cc: the author of a response. It dates back to the days when mail delivery would take... well... days instead of minutes or seconds. It's extremely unlikely (read, impossible) to convince everyone on the internet to not cc: you, so much better to learn how to cope. Personally I use procmail to filter the ones addressed to me to my inbox, and delete the dupes. Good luck, Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 1:22:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clever.visp-europe.psi.com (clever.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94D537B7FF for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 01:22:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip48.berlin70.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.70.48] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by clever.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #1) id 12zEdG-0006z6-00; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:22:42 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 4CBB12263; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:22:26 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14652.46273.709215.10448@goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:22:25 +0200 (CEST) To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) In-Reply-To: <20000606042412.A43514@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <3939F26A.A405DD4A@mail.ptd.net> <20000605081334.C25970@ecto.greenpeas.org> <001501bfceee$34cb9a00$858c8c96@win2000.cc.ceid.upatras.gr> <20000605162025.A32447@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000606042412.A43514@happy.checkpoint.com> From: Juergen Nickelsen Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20000606042412.A43514@happy.checkpoint.com>, Anatoly Vorobey writes: > On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 12:14:07AM +0200, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: [...] > > You would also have to handle the case that multiple instances of > > the same pathname get removed, so a kind of versioning scheme would > > be needed. > > I'd just use inode as the unique identifier. Thus links in .dustbin > will look like origdir-origname-inode-->inode, and inode hardlinked > to the actual file. Slashes are encoded in origdir somehow, etc. You'd also have to encode the inode itself for uniqueness to prevent clashes with legal filenames. It has to be guaranteed unique, otherwise it *will* clash sometime (says Murphy). There is the problem of the pathname length vs. filename length, though, or you would have to rebuild the directory hierarchy. I'd prefer to have a kind of database for performance reasons and because I think you'd need it anyway (see below). > When looking to undelete origdir-origname, search for > origdir-origname-* in .dustbin, and using inode hardlinks present > helpful information to the user about sizes, times, etc. of > different candidates for undeletion. This is not trivial, I think, especially if you have several versions of the deleted file. Or if you don't exectly know where it was. There should be a user interface like restore(8)'s, especially including a -i option and the possibility to browse the different versions. I can even imagine various frontends (GUI, Emacs, curses). > > And, of course, a wrapper for the unlink(2) and rmdir(2) > > system calls to catch other programs than just rm(1). > > Well, that demands kernel level intervention (because of the static > binaries), I was trying to explicitly show something that only uses > user-mode code. But yes, simple wrappers for syscalls are possible, > which will relegate to user-mode the actual handling, for robustness. I meant wrappers in libc, but of course to catch existing binaries, you'd have to do it in the kernel, perfoming the actual save operation with a daemon. [configurable] > I agree. Could be a usermode-visible mount option which newrm(1) or > syscalls wrappers check. Per-directory configuration seems too > bothersome to be worth it, though one can kludge away something like > touch $dir/.dontundeletefileshere. Thw daemon can as well read a database with pattern not to save for undeletion. I think a file-system-wide option is not enough, as there are /tmp, /usr/tmp, and /var/tmp, where you may or may not save files for undeletion. You might also want to decide that you don't want to save any *~ files, no files under /usr/obj, and no *.o file in your home directory. > > [...] it might be useful to maintain a log *when* which file was > > deleted, in order to be able to restore a consistent state of a > > certain time in the past. > > The log is simply there in inode, isn't its access time changed > when a directory entry to it is unlinked? If not, it can be made > to change. Since the inode is effectively being frozen when the > file is "deleted", the only reference to it staying in .dustbin, > this information is available later for undeletion considerations. Probably a ctime change would be most appropriate. But I think it isn't enough to save a directory entry only if this is the last link to the file. All entries should be saved (though not . and .. for directories), because I might not even know where the other link to a file is, when I deleted one accidentally. Or I might have deleted both in the same action -- which one is privileged to be saved? To do it right, (nearly) every removed link has to be saved, and the deletion time has to be saved separately, since the ctime of the inode may of course change later for different reasons. This is the place where the database idea for deleted entries comes up again. This would also save any filename clash or filename length trouble. > > "echo 'test:*:101:20:test account:/home/test:/bin/sh' > /etc/passwd" > > where ">>" was meant. Should the same level of protection apply to > > file that are accidentally overwritten? > > This sounds too complicated. Well, OK, how about this -- catch > ftruncate's to zero size, and clone the file in such cases, > storing it in .dustbin in a similar fashion to above. > > Don't even start talking about mmap'ed files, please :) :-) I wasn't too serious with this one. But catching {f,}truncate() is a good idea. A versioning file system (as with VMS and its predecessors) would make this even unnecessary. As you may have guessed by now I am undecided between "forget it, it is too hard to do right" and "well, what *has* to be done?" It even begins to sound feasible to me, although also like some work. Greetings, Juergen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 2: 8:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6395337C028 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:08:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA79269; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:08:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions References: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <8h8snk$1irg$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Jun 2000 11:08:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: naddy@mips.inka.de's message of "2 Jun 2000 20:00:20 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes: > Excuse me, but what's the point of the American quotation marks? > Why are *they* different? And who introduced the bizarre concept > of repeating the opening marks at every new paragraph? Just looks > wrong. I don't know about the former two, but the latter is (or at least was) widespread in French texts. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 2:14: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF87837B6E3 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA79285; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:13:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Doug Barton Cc: chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Jun 2000 11:13:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: Doug Barton's message of "Sat, 03 Jun 2000 00:11:24 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton writes: > I used KDE for a long time, but got tired of it crashing all the damn > time. I've been using KDE on several machines (including my primary workstation) for several months, and have never ever seen it crash. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 2:27:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D44D437B6E3 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:27:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 54415 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2000 09:27:23 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 6 Jun 2000 09:27:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 3245 invoked by uid 211); 6 Jun 2000 09:27:22 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:57:21 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Doug Barton , chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Message-ID: <20000606145721.A3237@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Doug Barton , chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 11:13:59AM +0200 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Jun 6, 2000 at 11:13:59: > Doug Barton writes: > > I used KDE for a long time, but got tired of it crashing all the damn > > time. > > I've been using KDE on several machines (including my primary > workstation) for several months, and have never ever seen it crash. Me neither, and it's nearly 2 years now. We're still using KDE 1.0, though. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 2:34:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B83B37B6E3 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA24359; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:33:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:33:46 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000605142053.04aa2ee0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:10 AM 6/5/2000, Narvi wrote: > > >I don't know how they implemented it - but I would start with a daemon > >running as root to which both the "delete" and "undelete" commands speak > >to. > > I'd do it with an lkm that hooked syscalls. > But that provides more than most things under NT - guranteed undelete of any file, no matter how deleted. Hooking unlink also produces a lot of problems, especially if the user runs any suid programs, esp. if those happen to use temporary files... > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 3: 1:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kens.com (kens.com [129.250.30.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AC637BF97 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 03:01:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsocha@kens.com) Received: (from rsocha@localhost) by kens.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA05085 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:02:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rsocha) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:02:26 -0400 From: "Robin S. Socha" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Message-ID: <20000606060226.A4959@kens.com> References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> <20000606145721.A3237@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000606145721.A3237@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:57:21PM +0530 X-Editor: Vim-506 http://www.vim.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Rahul Siddharthan [000606 05:28]: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Jun 6, 2000 at 11:13:59: > > Doug Barton writes: > > > I used KDE for a long time, but got tired of it crashing all the damn > > > time. > > > > I've been using KDE on several machines (including my primary > > workstation) for several months, and have never ever seen it crash. > > Me neither, and it's nearly 2 years now. We're still using KDE 1.0, > though. Reality check 1-2-3: what exactly are you guys talking about? "KDE" as in "the entire *D*esktop *E*nvironment" or "KDE" as in "kwm and kpanel"? I've been installing and uninstalling KDE for about 3 years now. It just sucks. What annoys me most about KDE is not so much the fact that it is slow as hell and sucks up resources like the "OS" it's looking like. Rather, I see it as a major step in the wrong direction for Un*x GUIs. If you take a look at, for example, Window Maker, you will see an entirely different concept (which is almost as good as the one it's trying to emulate). It's lean, it's consistent, and it certainly is a hell of a lot different from anything a Wintendo luser expects. Does one want to cater to the pathetic needs of these lusers and - coming back to why KDE sucks so bad - sacrifice tried and trued concepts like "one job one tool" in the name of user friendliness? Change your viewpoint: what does KDE give you? What is the added value of running KDE over twm? You get a bloated WM, a sucky Windos emulation, loads of crappy toy^Hols, random crashes (yes, I have rarely seen KDE crash, yes, I have seen loads of really, really bad apps using QT). So where's the added value? Now, KDE 2.0 looks great. Konqueror might become a killer app, and the office suite is certainly looking good. But then again, that's what I thought about KDE initially. And boy was I disappointed. The solution? There isn't really one. Except "startx xemacs". Which IYAM is a lot better as a DE than KDE. For me. YMMV. ;-) -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/XEmacs/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 4:27:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E427137B55E for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 04:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 54744 invoked by uid 211); 6 Jun 2000 11:27:16 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:57:16 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Robin S. Socha" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Message-ID: <20000606165716.A54718@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "Robin S. Socha" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> <20000606145721.A3237@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000606060226.A4959@kens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000606060226.A4959@kens.com>; from lart@socha.net on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:02:26AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robin S. Socha said on Jun 6, 2000 at 06:02:26: > * Rahul Siddharthan [000606 05:28]: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Jun 6, 2000 at 11:13:59: > > > Doug Barton writes: > > > > > I used KDE for a long time, but got tired of it crashing all the damn > > > > time. > > > > > > I've been using KDE on several machines (including my primary > > > workstation) for several months, and have never ever seen it crash. > > > > Me neither, and it's nearly 2 years now. We're still using KDE 1.0, > > though. > > Reality check 1-2-3: what exactly are you guys talking about? "KDE" as > in "the entire *D*esktop *E*nvironment" or "KDE" as in "kwm and kpanel"? Everything in the startkde script except the sound programs, which I manually commented out. > trying to emulate). It's lean, it's consistent, and it certainly is a > hell of a lot different from anything a Wintendo luser expects. Does one > want to cater to the pathetic needs of these lusers and - coming back > to why KDE sucks so bad - sacrifice tried and trued concepts like "one > job one tool" in the name of user friendliness? Exactly how does it sacrifice that? It has a window manager for managing windows, a panel for launching menus and apps, a file manager for browsing your file system and help pages (and launching apps if you want), a background manager for controlling your backdrop, etc etc. Unlike, well, some window managers which try to do all of the above and more. > Change your viewpoint: what does KDE give you? What is the added value > of running KDE over twm? You get a bloated WM, a sucky Windos emulation, > loads of crappy toy^Hols, random crashes (yes, I have rarely seen KDE > crash, yes, I have seen loads of really, really bad apps using QT). So > where's the added value? I don't know KDE 1.1.x, but there's no way I'd call 1.0 "bloated". It has a lot of stuff which Windows doesn't, and seems to owe more to CDE than to Windows. But you can leave out what you don't want, just edit the startkde script. I just don't get this "KDE is like windows" thing at all. The decorations, the panel, and the apps are nothing like windows, or no more like windows than lots of other unix things. In fact the start button and task bar look like the only common things with windows to me, and even they look different. And it's nice of you to blame KDE for bad QT programs. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 5:39:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEF037B8CB for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 05:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA79954; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:37:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Doug Barton , chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> <20000606145721.A3237@physics.iisc.ernet.in> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Jun 2000 14:37:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:57:21 +0530" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Jun 6, 2000 at 11:13:59: > > I've been using KDE on several machines (including my primary > > workstation) for several months, and have never ever seen it crash. > Me neither, and it's nearly 2 years now. We're still using KDE 1.0, > though. 1.1.2 here, and I'm eagerly awaiting the release of 2.0, and especially that of Konqueror and Koffice. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 5:43:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D933437B665 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 05:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2FE577569; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 05:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2C61D90; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 05:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 05:45:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Robin S. Socha" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager In-Reply-To: <20000606165716.A54718@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :Robin S. Socha said on Jun 6, 2000 at 06:02:26: :> Change your viewpoint: what does KDE give you? What is the added value :> of running KDE over twm? You get a bloated WM, a sucky Windos emulation, :> loads of crappy toy^Hols, random crashes (yes, I have rarely seen KDE :> crash, yes, I have seen loads of really, really bad apps using QT). So :> where's the added value? :I don't know KDE 1.1.x, but there's no way I'd call 1.0 "bloated". It :has a lot of stuff which Windows doesn't, and seems to owe more to CDE :than to Windows. But you can leave out what you don't want, just edit :the startkde script. I just don't get this "KDE is like windows" thing at :all. The decorations, the panel, and the apps are nothing like :windows, or no more like windows than lots of other unix things. In :fact the start button and task bar look like the only common things :with windows to me, and even they look different. And it's nice of :you to blame KDE for bad QT programs. CDE looks alot like the WPS in OS/2 Warp. Not having used KDE, but assuming it's a clone of CDE (as that was a stated design goal IIRC), I can only assume it also has an OS/2ish look and feel. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 6: 4:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB7D37B95C for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:04:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA80090; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:04:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "Robin S. Socha" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> <20000606145721.A3237@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000606060226.A4959@kens.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Jun 2000 15:04:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Robin S. Socha"'s message of "Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:02:26 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Robin S. Socha" writes: > [...] Does one > want to cater to the pathetic needs of these lusers and - coming back > to why KDE sucks so bad - sacrifice tried and trued concepts like "one > job one tool" in the name of user friendliness? What do you hope to achieve by insulting non-technical users? It's people like you that give the Unix community a bad name. > Change your viewpoint: what does KDE give you? What is the added value > of running KDE over twm? You get a bloated WM, a sucky Windos emulation, > loads of crappy toy^Hols, random crashes (yes, I have rarely seen KDE > crash, yes, I have seen loads of really, really bad apps using QT). So > where's the added value? Simplicity, consistency, useful tools (yes, I find such things as the international keyboard or the personal time tracker useful, and would probably enjoy the address book too if I started using it), ease of installation and configuration, and KDE has never ever crashed on any of my machines, nor have I noticed any significant slowdown except that the screensaver I favor (matrix) is rather CPU-hungry. I can't comment on the quality of teh Windows emulation since a) I don't use Windows, so I have no need for KDE to act like it and b) judging from my experience with Windows, KDE doesn't look remotely like it. > The solution? There isn't really one. Except "startx xemacs". Which IYAM > is a lot better as a DE than KDE. For me. YMMV. ;-) Emacs, even XEmacs, is not the answer. It's very nice for source code, and OK for mail and news, but useless for larger documents, and the behaviour of various modes wrt. text editing and formatting is very inconsistent (for instance, I'd expect outline mode to work precisely like text mode except for the hide/unhide functions, but it doesn't). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 6: 7:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254A537B665 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:07:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA80105; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:07:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Robin S. Socha" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Jun 2000 15:07:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jamie Bowden's message of "Tue, 6 Jun 2000 05:45:33 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden writes: > CDE looks alot like the WPS in OS/2 Warp. Not having used KDE, but > assuming it's a clone of CDE (as that was a stated design goal IIRC), I > can only assume it also has an OS/2ish look and feel. CDE predates Warp, AFAIK, though I may be wrong. But now that you mention it, they are rather similar... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 6:19: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F0737B665 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (p3E9D38C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.157.56.193]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02514; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:15:15 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B308AAC30; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:15:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0426B14A77; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:12:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:12:28 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: chip Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Message-ID: <20000606151228.A24347@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> <00060314502400.09463@chip.wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <00060314502400.09463@chip.wiegand.org>; from chip@wiegand.org on Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 02:46:58PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake chip (chip@wiegand.org): > 3.4.0. It's not a package or port though, so I'm a little unsure > about installing it. Do I just 'tar xzvf' the file and restart XCFE? I suggest building it first. Alex -- This is a FreeBSD advocacy ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 6:25:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0C737B665 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:25:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 73D947578; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712BA1D93; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:27:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 6 Jun 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: :Jamie Bowden writes: :> CDE looks alot like the WPS in OS/2 Warp. Not having used KDE, but :> assuming it's a clone of CDE (as that was a stated design goal IIRC), I :> can only assume it also has an OS/2ish look and feel. :CDE predates Warp, AFAIK, though I may be wrong. But now that you :mention it, they are rather similar... Warp was released in early to mid 94. The first time I saw CDE anywhere was with Solaris 2.5, which I seem to recall being released in mid 95. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 7:11:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BB437BBC2 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.00) id AD6D6F77010E; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 06:32:29 -0700 From: Chip Organization: homenet To: "Robin S. Socha" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 06:17:45 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <20000606145721.A3237@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000606060226.A4959@kens.com> In-Reply-To: <20000606060226.A4959@kens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00060606262300.87071@chip.wiegand.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 06 Jun 2000, Robin S. Socha wrote: > * Rahul Siddharthan [000606 05:28]: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Jun 6, 2000 at 11:13:59: > > > Doug Barton writes: > > > > > I used KDE for a long time, but got tired of it crashing all the damn > > > > time. > > > > > > I've been using KDE on several machines (including my primary > > > workstation) for several months, and have never ever seen it crash. > > > > Me neither, and it's nearly 2 years now. We're still using KDE 1.0, > > though. > Sure, KDE itself may not crash so much as the apps that are running in it to make it what it is. I switched from winblows a couple years ago to get away from that, then switched from kde to xfce, and have tried a couple other wm's, and have been much happier. I can still run kmail from xfce and that's okay with me. KDE is sooo slow compared to anything other than enlightenment, which is even slowere. I agree with Robin that the window managers we have to choose from need to have there own look, and not try to look like what's already been done. That's not even the best 'look' either. Anyway, that's my 2cents worth, since I started this thread with a question about xfce. -- Chip Wiegand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ visit Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org > Reality check 1-2-3: what exactly are you guys talking about? "KDE" as > in "the entire *D*esktop *E*nvironment" or "KDE" as in "kwm and kpanel"? > I've been installing and uninstalling KDE for about 3 years now. It just > sucks. What annoys me most about KDE is not so much the fact that it is > slow as hell and sucks up resources like the "OS" it's looking like. > Rather, I see it as a major step in the wrong direction for Un*x GUIs. > If you take a look at, for example, Window Maker, you will see an > entirely different concept (which is almost as good as the one it's > trying to emulate). It's lean, it's consistent, and it certainly is a > hell of a lot different from anything a Wintendo luser expects. Does one > want to cater to the pathetic needs of these lusers and - coming back > to why KDE sucks so bad - sacrifice tried and trued concepts like "one > job one tool" in the name of user friendliness? > > Change your viewpoint: what does KDE give you? What is the added value > of running KDE over twm? You get a bloated WM, a sucky Windos emulation, > loads of crappy toy^Hols, random crashes (yes, I have rarely seen KDE > crash, yes, I have seen loads of really, really bad apps using QT). So > where's the added value? > > Now, KDE 2.0 looks great. Konqueror might become a killer app, and the > office suite is certainly looking good. But then again, that's what I > thought about KDE initially. And boy was I disappointed. > > The solution? There isn't really one. Except "startx xemacs". Which IYAM > is a lot better as a DE than KDE. For me. YMMV. ;-) > -- > Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/XEmacs/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 7:27:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA2E37B702 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16725 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:27:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id QAA07946; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:26:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> <00060314502400.09463@chip.wiegand.org> <20000606151228.A24347@cichlids.cichlids.com> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Alexander Langer's message of "Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:12:28 +0200" Date: 06 Jun 2000 16:26:07 +0200 Message-ID: <0v4s76ga2o.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexander Langer writes: > > 3.4.0. It's not a package or port though, so I'm a little unsure > > about installing it. Do I just 'tar xzvf' the file and restart XCFE? > > I suggest building it first. Well, there *are* binary tgz archives available at . Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 8:25:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5A737BA3A for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 12zKJT-000Bcs-00; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:26:39 +0100 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.12 #7) id 12zKJT-0005Vq-00; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:26:39 +0100 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:26:39 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Doug Barton Cc: gh , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Message-ID: <20000606152639.O42325@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan><200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com><393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net><20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in><011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan><20000603225029.A13363@physics.iisc.ernet.in><001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3.0.6.32.20000604003206.008bb210@mail85.pair.com> <002501bfcefc$046dd310$2969a0d0@leviathan> <393C9255.15612D66@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <393C9255.15612D66@gorean.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton wrote: > gh wrote: >> >> I am subscribed to the list, so the cc is unnecessary. > > It's a long standing tradition on internet mailing lists to cc: the author > of a response. It dates back to the days when mail delivery would take... > well... days instead of minutes or seconds. It's extremely unlikely (read, > impossible) to convince everyone on the internet to not cc: you, so much > better to learn how to cope. Personally I use procmail to filter the ones > addressed to me to my inbox, and delete the dupes. Personally I couldn't give a damn about the dupes. I get really annoyed when people _don't_ CC me because I don't have unlimited time to read mail. I'll read mail which drops into my inbox fairly quickly, but mail on a mailing list which happens to be a reply to one of my posts and directed at me might get missed. If gh doesn't want people to CC him, he should set Mail-Followup-To: the-mailing-lists-he-posted-to@example.com or whatever, in his headers. Any MUA should respect that, though I suspect not many do yet. (Mutt does at least.) -- Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 9:32:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09C637B620 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA97473; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:32:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <393D278B.E4222FB8@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:32:11 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0603 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Doug Barton writes: > > I used KDE for a long time, but got tired of it crashing all the damn > > time. > > I've been using KDE on several machines (including my primary > workstation) for several months, and have never ever seen it crash. Supposedly the more recent versions are more stable. My experience was that the more windows I had open, the more unstable it would get. Twenty was about my limit. Your mileage may vary, of course. I plan to give KDE 2 a ride once things get a little more stable over there. I've got no emotional ties to either, I just want something that works. :) Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 13:26: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011FB37B98D for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:26:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29119; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:25:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606142150.04ab7760@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:25:24 -0600 To: Narvi From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000605142053.04aa2ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:33 AM 6/6/2000, Narvi wrote: >> I'd do it with an lkm that hooked syscalls. > >But that provides more than most things under NT - guranteed undelete of >any file, no matter how deleted. Given Microsoft's prowess (not!) at software engineering, NT should not be used as a standard of comparison. Instead, we should do what makes sense. >Hooking unlink also produces a lot of problems, especially if the user >runs any suid programs, esp. if those happen to use temporary files... This simply means that the solution has to be well thought out. Permissions are not the only issue; quotas also come into play. A good scheme would also look at the euid to see whether a daemon was acting on behalf of a user. No one said that all this was easy to do right. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 15: 4: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D5637BB9F for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id AAA00113 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:03:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id E184B886E; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:35:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:35:02 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Message-ID: <20000606233502.A68444@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 11:13:59AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Dag-Erling Smorgrav: > I've been using KDE on several machines (including my primary > workstation) for several months, and have never ever seen it crash. Just to give another perspective, I just switched from fvwm2 over to gnome + WindowMaker. I find it nicer to the eyes than KDE and it runs real fine even on my old K6/200 (plain K6). The combination of the gnome pager and WindowMaker (which lacks a good one) is good. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #80: Sun Jun 4 22:44:19 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 17:48:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F2437B69A for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:48:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02289 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:48:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:47:56 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Anti-BSD FUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 17:57:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440DB37B61F for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:55:50 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , Subject: RE: Anti-BSD FUD Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:57:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000301bfd01b$51a908f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > See > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html You see, all we need to do is get rid of this annoying freedom of speech thing and then nobody will say anything stupid. Hate speech is all the Constitution's fault. What a dumbass. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 19:24:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326FF37B57B for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA58202; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:24:42 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdcwApMa; Tue Jun 6 19:24:35 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06462; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:24:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006070224.TAA06462@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:24:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3939A4B5.C62DF7F8@mail.ptd.net> from "Thomas M. Sommers" at Jun 03, 2000 08:37:09 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What's wrong with having an undelete command, if someone can implement > > one? > > Nothing, *if* it can be implemented without affecting the integrity of > the system. But coming up with an implementation is not easy. Actually, there already is one; it uses the "whiteout" option; this construct "removes" the file without actually removing it; it's a "no-see-um", rather than a delete. > There are security concerns. Not really. The inode is still allocated to the file; the entries for the file are simply not returned by "getdirentries(2)" or "getdents(2)". The ownership of the file and permissions remain unchanged. Security issues for files that you really want deleted so that the police don't get you because you're a criminal are why there is a "-P" option to "rm". > How do undeleteable files interact with disk quotas? They are accounted against your quota, until purged. > How do they interact with multiple hard links? How does deleting a file that has other hard links interact with hard links? Whiteout interacts by _not_ reducing the link count, and setting the "whiteout" flag on the directory entry. > That, in the 30 years since its creation, Unix has not come > up with undelete strongly suggests that either it can't be > done or that there is no real need for it. It's been done many times for UNIX; visit the comp.sources.unix archives; many implementations predate the ArpaNet. As we used to say: "If VMS can do it, UNIX can do it better". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 19:25:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF5737BB9F for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA26872; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:25:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHbayD0; Tue Jun 6 19:25:44 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06472; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:25:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006070225.TAA06472@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:25:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000603222418.04946e30@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jun 03, 2000 10:26:12 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Unix" (whatever it means in this context) may not have come up with > an undelete command, but Norton Computing (now part of Symantec) did. > The Norton Utilities for Unix never sold very well, but had this > feature. UNIX undelete code predates the existance of DOS. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 6 19:50:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BDC37BA7E for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:50:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA27466; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:50:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAj2aGN1; Tue Jun 6 19:50:09 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA07292; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:50:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006070250.TAA07292@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Undelete in Unix (Was: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD) To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:50:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), keramida@ceid.upatras.gr (Giorgos Keramidas), tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Jun 06, 2000 11:33:46 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > But that provides more than most things under NT - guranteed undelete of > any file, no matter how deleted. I've implemented this as an IFSManager hook in both Windows 95 and NT. It's trivial, once you decode the "Wastebasket" format to trap deletion calls, even ones made on the DOS command line, and mode the file to the "Wastebasket". The code is currently owned by Artisoft, Inc., and is probably rotting on a tape somewhere after they closed down their Tucson offices, but it would be very easy to recreate this code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 7:32:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8581A37B5B8 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:32:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r34.bfm.org [216.127.220.130]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:33:03 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:31:52 -0500 To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:47 06-06-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >See > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html Strange thing... I wanted to make sure to know what exactly "fud" means, so I checked Merriam-Webster's online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/). According to the dictionary, "fud" is synonymous with "fuddy-duddy", which is a (circa) 1904 word meaning "one that is old-fashioned, unimaginative, or conservative." But I don't think that's what you had in mind. Anyway, I always thought fud was a linuxy slang word for twisting propaganda. If my understanding of the word is correct, then I would not say the article is fud. I *disagree* with the author, but I don't think he means to be distorting facts for propaganda purposes, or, for that matter, that he is "anti-BSD" (he does say BSD is a better OS than Linux, after all). I get the impression he is expressing his opinion. While I disagree with what he says, I feel obliged to defend his right to say it. That said, I thought David Schwartz's reply in the comment section of the article was well thought out and made perfect sense. Your (Brett's) response that MS would have found a way to circumvent any license made perfect sense as well. I'm just not sure that calling the article fud is going to convince the other side, and will probably let them refuse the rest of your argument based on (their) emotional reasons. Without the fud sting, they could hardly argue with you. Unfortuntely, now they do. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 7:48:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 178F937BCD7 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 61697 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 14:48:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 7 Jun 2000 14:48:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 2529 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jun 2000 14:48:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:18:28 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD Message-ID: <20000607201827.A2465@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:31:52AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i686 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav said on Jun 7, 2000 at 09:31:52: > At 18:47 06-06-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >See > > > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html > > Strange thing... I wanted to make sure to know what exactly "fud" means, so > I checked Merriam-Webster's online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/). > > According to the dictionary, "fud" is synonymous with "fuddy-duddy", which > is a (circa) 1904 word meaning "one that is old-fashioned, unimaginative, > or conservative." > > But I don't think that's what you had in mind. > > Anyway, I always thought fud was a linuxy slang word for twisting > propaganda. If my understanding of the word is correct, then I would not > say the article is fud. It stands for "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt" -- marketing tactics used by established players against new technology. It's often used by linux people to indicate twisting propaganda by big companies, but I've read that its origins are much older. According to the hacker dictionary (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/FUD.html) FUD /fuhd/ n. Defined by Gene Amdahl after he left IBM to found his own company: "FUD is the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that IBM sales people instill in the minds of potential customers who might be considering [Amdahl] products." The idea, of course, was to persuade them to go with safe IBM gear rather than with competitors' equipment. This implicit coercion was traditionally accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck with IBM, but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors' equipment or software. See IBM. After 1990 the term FUD was associated increasingly frequently with Microsoft, and has become generalized to refer to any kind of disinformation used as a competitive weapon. > I *disagree* with the author, but I don't think he means to be distorting > facts for propaganda purposes, or, for that matter, that he is "anti-BSD" > (he does say BSD is a better OS than Linux, after all). I get the > impression he is expressing his opinion. Quite. He was quite clearly talking about the license and not to the software, so to open by attacking the article as "anti-BSD FUD" will not really encourage people to read your response further. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 7:50:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B48A37BD20 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0610F756F; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032FE1D8F; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:52:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: :Strange thing... I wanted to make sure to know what exactly "fud" means, so :I checked Merriam-Webster's online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/). FUD is an acronym for Fear, Uncertaintay, Doubt. The author misses the entire point of the BSD license, which is that commercial vendors (or anyone for that matter) are free to use the cade as they deem fit, so long as they acknowledge the originator. He really doesn't understand that no one cares if the code is integrated into someone elses commercial venture, and they keep the changes to themselves. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 8:18:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7D637B651 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08930; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:18:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000607091003.04b11100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:18:13 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:31 AM 6/7/2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >At 18:47 06-06-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>See >> >>http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html > >Strange thing... I wanted to make sure to know what exactly "fud" means, so >I checked Merriam-Webster's online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/). > >According to the dictionary, "fud" is synonymous with "fuddy-duddy", which >is a (circa) 1904 word meaning "one that is old-fashioned, unimaginative, >or conservative." Obviously, Merriam-Webster is out of date. FUD is an acronym for "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" -- a strategy of sliming a rival product via misinformation. It was first applied to IBM's marketing tactics in the 50s, and then later to Microsoft's in the 80s and 90s. The Hackers' Dictionary/Jargon File says: FUD /fuhd/ /n./ Defined by Gene Amdahl after he left IBM to found his own company: "FUD is the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that IBM sales people instill in the minds of potential customers who might be considering [Amdahl] products." The idea, of course, was to persuade them to go with safe IBM gear rather than with competitors' equipment. This implicit coercion was traditionally accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck with IBM, but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors' equipment or software. See IBM. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 8:19:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CB637B8F0 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02379; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:18:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:18:59 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200006071518.IAA02379@sharmas.dhs.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:47:56 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > See > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html Here is the stuff I submitted using the talkback button. Hasn't showed up yet. I think Mr Leibovitch's argument is flawed: 1. He doesn't furnish any proof that Microsoft used Kerberos code. 2. GPL "protects" code, not the open standard. Even though Kereberos code was GPL'ed, Microsoft could write a proprietary version of it. Sure, it would have been a little more difficult for MS to do it, but given the resources they have, it's peanuts for them. One living example of this is their Java VM. They rewrote it from scratch, wrote a better one than Sun's (technically) and then wrote proprietary extensions to it. And GPL can't do anything to prevent that. In that sense, Microsoft *can* write a Linux emulation layer for NT, write a gcc compliant frontend to their compiler and have MS Linux. GPL can't stop them. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 8:22: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC62B37B95F for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08978; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:20:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000607091917.04a7d840@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:20:45 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000607201827.A2465@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:48 AM 6/7/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Quite. He was quite clearly talking about the license and not to the >software, so to open by attacking the article as "anti-BSD FUD" will >not really encourage people to read your response further. It *is* anti-BSD FUD. Note the headline -- "Fatal Flaw in BSD?" -- as well as the many assertions that BSD's licensing (and, by extension, BSD itself) is naive. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 8:23:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F36B37B5B3 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 61784 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 15:23:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 7 Jun 2000 15:23:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 2572 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jun 2000 15:23:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:53:22 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD Message-ID: <20000607205321.B2465@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> <200006071518.IAA02379@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006071518.IAA02379@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 08:18:59AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i686 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org True enough. Also, I guess one could call the thing FUD after all. I'd read the article and remembered only that it expressed his opinion of the license (misguided though it may be); but I'd forgotten what the title was. Arun Sharma said on Jun 7, 2000 at 08:18:59: > On Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:47:56 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > See > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html > > Here is the stuff I submitted using the talkback button. Hasn't > showed up yet. > > I think Mr Leibovitch's argument is flawed: > 1. He doesn't furnish any proof that Microsoft used Kerberos code. > 2. GPL "protects" code, not the open standard. Even though Kereberos > code was GPL'ed, Microsoft could write a proprietary version of it. > Sure, it would have been a little more difficult for MS to do it, > but given the resources they have, it's peanuts for them. > > One living example of this is their Java VM. They rewrote it from > scratch, wrote a better one than Sun's (technically) and then wrote > proprietary extensions to it. And GPL can't do anything to prevent > that. > > In that sense, Microsoft *can* write a Linux emulation layer for NT, > write a gcc compliant frontend to their compiler and have MS Linux. > GPL can't stop them. > > -Arun > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 9:44:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B04937BD7A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e57GhPS05640; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:43:25 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD Message-ID: <20000607094325.Y17973@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> <20000607201827.A2465@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000607091917.04a7d840@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000607091917.04a7d840@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:20:45AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brett Glass [000607 08:22] wrote: > At 08:48 AM 6/7/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >Quite. He was quite clearly talking about the license and not to the > >software, so to open by attacking the article as "anti-BSD FUD" will > >not really encourage people to read your response further. > > It *is* anti-BSD FUD. Note the headline -- "Fatal Flaw in BSD?" -- > as well as the many assertions that BSD's licensing (and, by > extension, BSD itself) is naive. Yes I agree, it's a clear anti-BSD article with just enough patronizing BSD propoganda to get it published. Had the code been GPL'd MS would have made thier own version along with it's proprietary poison. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 10: 6:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.nc.rr.com (fe5.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0061337BDC1 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:06:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from rdu25-6-087.nc.rr.com ([24.25.6.87]) by mail5.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:06:45 -0400 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:04:48 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.42f) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1453365057.20000607130448@nc.rr.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: lighter side of -chat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org More Linux Distos than Users http://bbspot.com/News/2000/4/linux_distros.html MS ups its shares of evil http://bbspot.com/News/2000/4/MS_Buys_Evil.html New AMD processor http://bbspot.com/News/2000/5/amd_moron.html After a long day, I found these amusing. Enjoy! -Neill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 10:33:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ham.eoni.com (ham.eoni.com [216.228.192.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B01C37BDEC for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:33:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phat@eoni.com) Received: from portable1 (hrmppp198-147.eoni.com [216.228.198.147]) by ham.eoni.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19995 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:33:23 -0700 Message-ID: <007001bfd0a7$a55218c0$93c6e4d8@portable1> From: "Jason Wilcox" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:41:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: "Brett Glass" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 7:31 AM Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD > Strange thing... I wanted to make sure to know what exactly "fud" means, so > I checked Merriam-Webster's online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/). > > According to the dictionary, "fud" is synonymous with "fuddy-duddy", which > is a (circa) 1904 word meaning "one that is old-fashioned, unimaginative, > or conservative." > > But I don't think that's what you had in mind. > > Anyway, I always thought fud was a linuxy slang word for twisting > propaganda. If my understanding of the word is correct, then I would not > say the article is fud. I just thought I would point out that FUD is a word that is used outside of the computer community also, I remember it being used more than once by Bad Religion in some of their songs, and I believe Propagandhi does also. ------------------------------------------------------ Jason Wilcox phat@eoni.com They say before you die your life flashes before your eyes; make it worth watching. ------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 11:44:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newmail.scitec.com (newmail.scitec.com [198.138.229.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A3A37B9CA for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@scitec.com) Received: from dialin-client.scitec.com (dialin-client.scitec.com [198.138.229.232]) by newmail.scitec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01990 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by dialin-client.scitec.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00320 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:43:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@scitec.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:42:48 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ISP in Si Valley Message-ID: <20000607114248.A307@dialin-client.scitec.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I hate to post the ol' "FreeBSD Friendly ISP in " question, but the maillist search is not up for the task. I just relocated to San Jose, CA, and I know there are plenty of readers of this list in that area. Right now I am temporarily housed so coax cable or DSL are probably not worthwhile options. All I want is a local phone number to dial-up to. I'd just go with one of the national mega-ISPs, but the CDs they send out run on Windoze, which I do not. I can imagine the phone conversation now trying to extract the information needed to configure my PPP from one of their help desk drones. I shudder. Anyone have a suggestion for a local ISP in the Valley? I just want to call and connect, a maildrop is good but not necessary. No frills, low bills. If anyone can reassure me that using one of the big guys, AOL, ATT, etc., is not too painful (or the trick to make it painless), that would be just as good. Thanks. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 12:31:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from intra.daemontech.net (intra.daemontech.net [208.138.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8757B37B530 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: (qmail 2674 invoked by uid 200); 7 Jun 2000 19:31:28 -0000 Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (208.138.46.10) by intra.daemontech.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2000 19:31:28 -0000 Content-Length: 1557 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000607094325.Y17973@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:31:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Nicole Harrington." To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "G. Adam Stanislav" , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Jun-00 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Brett Glass [000607 08:22] wrote: >> At 08:48 AM 6/7/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> >> >Quite. He was quite clearly talking about the license and not to the >> >software, so to open by attacking the article as "anti-BSD FUD" will >> >not really encourage people to read your response further. >> >> It *is* anti-BSD FUD. Note the headline -- "Fatal Flaw in BSD?" -- >> as well as the many assertions that BSD's licensing (and, by >> extension, BSD itself) is naive. > > Yes I agree, it's a clear anti-BSD article with just enough > patronizing BSD propoganda to get it published. Had the code been > GPL'd MS would have made thier own version along with it's proprietary > poison. > > -Alfred > In a way it is rather nice. They must be afraid of something to go through all the trouble. I would plan for more FUD from the marketing machines of many companies as BSD grows in popularity, strength and power! Nicole nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/ // \\ ---------------------------(((---(((----------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Strong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- OWNED? MS: Who's Been In/Virused Your Computer Today? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 13:25: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r30.bfm.org [216.127.220.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123D937BCBD for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA00238 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:24:39 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:24:07 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FUD Message-ID: <20000607152407.A222@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks, everyone, for explaining the meaning of FUD, and its history. Hmmm... Fear, uncertainty, doubt. Seems like those methods have been around for centuries. I am surprised that Merriam-Webster has not picked it up yet (I am talking about their *online* dictionary which is supposed to check their entire database). At any rate, now I have a better word to scream whenever I see the Dell (I think it's Dell) TV commercial in which they show you several computers and say something like "this one looks apetizing, but does it come with a free color printer?" I've been saying "Oh, please!", "Give me a break!" (and some more expletive words). Now I can just say "FUD!" :) Cheers, Adam -- Can you imagine the silence if everyone said only what he knows! -- Karel Èapek To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 14:13:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD9637B5CD for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh17.bfm.org [216.127.220.210]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:14:08 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000607161259.008b4830@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:12:59 -0500 To: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000607091917.04a7d840@localhost> References: <20000607201827.A2465@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184736.04b0f2f0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000607093152.008b4910@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:20 07-06-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >It *is* anti-BSD FUD. Note the headline -- "Fatal Flaw in BSD?" -- >as well as the many assertions that BSD's licensing (and, by >extension, BSD itself) is naive. I have just re-read the article. The headline alone, I could see as just journalistic exaggeration. But then I noticed the by-line: "Evan Leibovitch, Linux." It is the "Linux" in the by-line that makes me think perhaps the author may not be as neutral as he claims to be. I have now entered my own view in the comment section, in which I explain why I believe ZDNet (and the rest of the Internet) would not even exist if not for the BSD license. I hope they'll post it. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 18:12: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB97237BF2E for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:11:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 12zqrP-0001Ar-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:11:51 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA70012 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:11:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:11:51 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: kerberos and bsd license Message-ID: <20000608021150.A69953@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org sorry if this has already been covered here, but i haven't been subscribed because of lack of time. but i was curious what everyone's thoughts were, especially., dare i say, brett glass. is this a problem with bsd licensing? can this be corrected? is the gpl better for protecting us from microsoft and other prorietary monopolies? a friend of mine argues againts bsd licensing for this very reason. jm -- ------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org Do not mistake lack of talent for genius ------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 18:31:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8F237B8F5 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r44.bfm.org [216.127.220.140]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:32:04 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000607203057.008b98a0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:30:57 -0500 To: "Dr. Brain" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FUD Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000607165917.A20307@segment7.net> References: <20000607152407.A222@whizkidtech.net> <20000607152407.A222@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:59 07-06-2000 -0700, Dr. Brain wrote: >You can always try everything2: >http://www.everything2.com Thanks, Dr. That's definitely a different place. :) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 18:45:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBBC937B8EC for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@avarice.riverstyx.net) Received: (from unknown@localhost) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e581WAr03049; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:32:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:32:10 -0700 From: Tani Hosokawa To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kerberos and bsd license Message-ID: <20000607183210.T30128@riverstyx.net> References: <20000608021150.A69953@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000608021150.A69953@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 02:11:51AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 02:11:51AM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > sorry if this has already been covered here, but i haven't been subscribed > because of lack of time. > > but i was curious what everyone's thoughts were, especially., dare i say, > brett glass. is this a problem with bsd licensing? can this be corrected? > is the gpl better for protecting us from microsoft and other prorietary > monopolies? > > a friend of mine argues againts bsd licensing for this very reason. I think you may have missed the point of the BSD license... it's not restrictive. It's free software, that can be used by anyone for any purpose. It's not up to the license to police large corporations, it's up to society. -- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 19: 5:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB02F37B98C for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05049; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:04:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAdiay1j; Wed Jun 7 19:04:31 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA24021; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:04:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006080204.TAA24021@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ISP in Si Valley To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:04:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000607114248.A307@dialin-client.scitec.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Jun 07, 2000 11:42:48 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I just relocated to San Jose, CA, and I know there are plenty of > readers of this list in that area. Right now I am temporarily housed > so coax cable or DSL are probably not worthwhile options. All I want > is a local phone number to dial-up to. I'd just go with one of the > national mega-ISPs, but the CDs they send out run on Windoze, which I > do not. I can imagine the phone conversation now trying to extract the > information needed to configure my PPP from one of their help desk > drones. I shudder. > > Anyone have a suggestion for a local ISP in the Valley? I just want to > call and connect, a maildrop is good but not necessary. No frills, low > bills. If anyone can reassure me that using one of the big guys, AOL, > ATT, etc., is not too painful (or the trick to make it painless), that > would be just as good. I use Primenet, which was acquired by Global Crossing. I've used them since they were just "Primenet", and I got them because they had POPs in the areas in which I formerly lived, now lived, expected to travel for the holidays with the family, and reasonably expected to travel. The official name is "GlobalCenter's Primenet" or just "GlobalCenter" now. I pay ~$20/month, which is pretty standard. You can get cheaper if you just want IP dialtone; if that's all you want, you might want to check out UUNET dialups. Be aware that without an ISP mail relay, any dialup you get is probably not going to be able to send mail to most of the world directly, unless you get a static IP (and ARIN will not give out address blocks to ISPs who give out static IPs to dialups, until they convert all their dialups to dynamic IP). If you get a shell account and use it for mail access, they have very good Anti-SPAM as well (although I am told that I am on a number of SPAMmer blacklists as "don't send to this guy, he will volunteer as many hundreds of dollars worth of hours as it takes to shut down your relay" ...it's good to be net.famous that way. So your SPAM mileage may vary, but I think it probably won't). I guess they are technically not "local", having started in Phoenix, but they are pretty much everywhere, now. They use BSDI systems for their shell accounts and mail servers, so they are BSDI friendly, and their techs are BSD knowledgable. You will get a Windows CDROM, and will have to know how to set up PPP yourself, but you really can't avoid that. They have plenty of local POPs (I might be shooting myself in the modem here by saying this, I guess...). They have also been outstanding as far as technical support; I have had two configuration based hosted domain outages in perhaps six years or so, and the person who answered the phone (usually in the middle of the night) was able to resolve the problem quickly and competently, and understood the technical jargon involved in me tell them exactly what was wrong (I was right both times, BTW, so that may have helped the promptness, but I rather think it was their competence, and that they would have found the problem themselves). The only issue I have seen is that I have to have a somewhat longer modem connection time than the default for PPP; I attribute this to the default having been chosen prior to 56k modems becoming popular with ISPs, and so the train time for 56k wasn't taken into account. You may also wish to contact sef@kithrup.com; he's in the SJ area, and has had truckk with several very good ISPs, including one that would put Centrex ISDN in so that you payed flat rate tarrif for ISDN connectivity, so long as you were in one of the Centrex LATEs. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 19: 7:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45F737B98C for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA16083; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:07:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAEzaWxF; Wed Jun 7 19:07:24 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA24158; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:07:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006080207.TAA24158@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD To: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 02:07:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000607161259.008b4830@mail85.pair.com> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at Jun 07, 2000 04:12:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have just re-read the article. The headline alone, I could see as just > journalistic exaggeration. But then I noticed the by-line: "Evan > Leibovitch, Linux." It is the "Linux" in the by-line that makes me think > perhaps the author may not be as neutral as he claims to be. That's just their link to the Linux special interest section of their magazine, or was last time I tried it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 19:24:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF6E37BF3A for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.00) id A5B253D200F8; Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:32:18 -0700 From: Chip Organization: homenet To: Roland Jesse , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:19:28 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <20000606151228.A24347@cichlids.cichlids.com> <0v4s76ga2o.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> In-Reply-To: <0v4s76ga2o.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00060719260100.01095@chip.wiegand.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 06 Jun 2000, Roland Jesse wrote: > Alexander Langer writes: > > > > 3.4.0. It's not a package or port though, so I'm a little unsure > > > about installing it. Do I just 'tar xzvf' the file and restart XCFE? > > > > I suggest building it first. > > Well, there *are* binary tgz archives available at > . > > > Roland > I did download the one from www.xfce.org called xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz which I then ran d/l'ed into /usr/ports/distfiles. I then ran tar xzvf xfce-etc.bin.tar.gz and saw on the screen all the files being extracted into the various directories, mostly /usr/loca/xfce/ So then I go to /usr/local and low and behold, there is no xfce directory. I do a search and the files that were extracted do not exist on my system anywhere, yet I saw them extract. Any idea what can cause this anomaly? (Is that the right word?) -- Chip Wiegand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ visit Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 22:12:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0770037B59D for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-2inip0d.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.100.13]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA08321; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <393F2B6D.D2E322AA@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:13:17 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISP in Si Valley References: <20000607114248.A307@dialin-client.scitec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > Anyone have a suggestion for a local ISP in the Valley? I just want to > call and connect, a maildrop is good but not necessary. No frills, low > bills. If anyone can reassure me that using one of the big guys, AOL, > ATT, etc., is not too painful (or the trick to make it painless), that > would be just as good. > I brought my Mindspring account along with me from Atlanta, quite painless to use with FreeBSD and the help desk folks are even *nix friendly. There are a few FreeBSD faithful employed there. BTW: I wouldn't even recommend AOL to Rev Don Kool :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 7 22:33:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B67F37B9D1 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-2inip0d.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.100.13]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA31794; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <393F3018.CDC3C074@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:33:12 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kerberos and bsd license References: <20000608021150.A69953@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > > a friend of mine argues againts bsd licensing for this very reason. > Hi Jonathan, Hanging out with parrots, eh? :-) This is the the latest in a long history of FUD character assassination against *BSD from the Linux spin machine. Thankfully, not all Linux developers and users share these traits. There is currently a very poorly written "article" on ZDNet covering exactly this issue. Read it and the response thread for counter-arguments. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 0:45:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EB3F37BAFC for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20034 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:45:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA25965; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:44:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <20000606151228.A24347@cichlids.cichlids.com> <0v4s76ga2o.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <00060719260100.01095@chip.wiegand.org> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Chip's message of "Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:19:28 -0700" Date: 08 Jun 2000 09:44:46 +0200 Message-ID: <0v4s74d3bl.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 33 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip writes: > I did download the one from www.xfce.org called > xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz which I then ran d/l'ed into > /usr/ports/distfiles. I then ran tar xzvf xfce-etc.bin.tar.gz and > saw on the screen all the files being extracted into the various > directories, mostly /usr/loca/xfce/ That's not completely right: % gzip -dc xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz| tar tf - | head usr/local/bin/startxfce usr/local/bin/xfbd usr/local/bin/xfce usr/local/bin/xfce_remove usr/local/bin/xfce_setup usr/local/bin/xfclock usr/local/bin/xfgnome usr/local/bin/xfhelp usr/local/bin/xflock usr/local/bin/xfmountdev You see the missing / at the beginning of the line? Your files are put in /usr/ports/distfiles/usr/local/bin/. How about the following: % cd / && (gzip -dc /usr/ports/distfiles/xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz| tar xf -) > Any idea what can cause this anomaly? (Is that the right word?) Well, I would call it correct behavior. BTW: Why are you putting precompiled binaries into /usr/ports/distfiles? Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 1:17:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D51837BB30 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:17:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12zxUQ-000A1m-00; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:16:34 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:16:34 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kerberos and bsd license Message-ID: <20000608101634.A38441@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000608021150.A69953@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000608021150.A69953@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 02:11:51AM +0100 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2000-06-08 (02:11), j mckitrick wrote: > but i was curious what everyone's thoughts were, especially., dare i say, > brett glass. is this a problem with bsd licensing? can this be corrected? > is the gpl better for protecting us from microsoft and other prorietary > monopolies? > > a friend of mine argues againts bsd licensing for this very reason. One retort is "GPL is a selfish license". I've only used it about three times, but every time the persion ran off in a rage talking about idiotic BSD zealots. Now they knows how I feel dealing with them. (Although maybe you had to be there, especially after the few minutes of unprovoked attacks against FreeBSD, the BSD license, and how BSD developers are going to destroy the world.) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 10: 0: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D295537B72C for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 393F45B2-3004, Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:05:22 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not reply to this address) X-Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:22 +0100 Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Message-ID: <393F45B2.3004@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:22 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip, > I then ran tar xzvf xfce-etc.bin.tar.gz > and saw on the screen all the files being extracted into the various > directories, mostly /usr/loca/xfce/ > So then I go to /usr/local and low and behold, there is no xfce > directory. Maybe a permissions problem? Get xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz; it's extracted into usr, not /usr, so copy it to /, cd to /, tar zxvf xfce...; then rm /xfce... You need to be root if your permissions are restrictive. I tried this yesterday; no problems (so far :) -- xfwm (the window manager) is running as I write this, and looks good. -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 13:27:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CCB437C103 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26055 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:27:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608142715.045d8a30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:27:37 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: ROFL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gotta see this.... http://unreel.netscape.com/mondo/shows/like_news/45_gates/play.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 13:39:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brs.com.br (brs.com.br [192.41.24.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EFC37C0DD for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:39:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from email@carlos.eti.br) Received: from fraga.carlos.eti.br ([200.241.0.6]) by brs.com.br (8.8.5) id SAA11288; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:39:46 -0200 (GMT+2) X-Authentication-Warning: brs.com.br: Host [200.241.0.6] claimed to be fraga.carlos.eti.br Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608174145.00b2eb90@carlos.eti.br> X-Sender: email@carlos.eti.br X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:41:50 -0300 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Carlos Fraga Subject: Re: It's worth ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A site that pays you to receive some e-mails. No more than that. Nothing to buy, just to receive the e-mail and click on the link to visit the site. Don't you believe it exists ? Yes, it exists. And I have already received a US$ 50,00 check. Will you say that you don't want some money ? It's up to you to subscribe and start receiving e-mails and money ! Follow the link: http://www.sendmoreinfo.com/id/871883 See you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 17:41:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corserv.corserv.com (corserv.corserv.com [206.180.159.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6339E37C05E for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from klyons@corserv.corserv.com) Received: (from klyons@localhost) by corserv.corserv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01053 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:54:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from klyons) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:54:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin Lyons Message-Id: <200006090054.TAA01053@corserv.corserv.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSDi acquisition of Telenet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anyone concerned about the impact of BSDi's acquisition of Telenet systems? Ordinarily, I doubt it would matter, but taken in conjunction with the merger of BSDi and Walnut Creek, one wonders if hardware manufacturers such as Dell, Micron, etc. will be as willing to provide FreeBSD Inc. with sample/development hardware. I guess from Kirk's standpoint at BSDi, I can't blame him. BSDi was trying to sell BSD/OS and Internet Super Server for umpteen thousand dollars when FreeBSD is essentially free and supports more hardware with an incredible hardware expansion program going on. BSDi may feel that the only way they can make money and stay viable is to start selling hardware. But the merger between Walnut Creek and BSDi is still puzzling. Jordan and friends at FreeBSD Inc. would, I hope, reject any interference in licensing or distribution attempts made by BSDi. After all, FreeBSD is composed of multiple independant developers who could easily move from Walnut Creek's CVS servers and distribution (as evidenced by NetBSD) if forced to. Am I the only one wondering about this? Maybe someone higher up in the BSD kingdom and familiar with the politics can illuminate the merger and acquisition. Kevin Lyons - /.sigs take up bandwidth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 17:47:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A125E37B71F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:47:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29122; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608184610.0494c900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:46:56 -0600 To: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet In-Reply-To: <200006090054.TAA01053@corserv.corserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why not ask Kirk et al what they have in mind? They've never been so secretive as not to discuss such things. --Brett At 06:54 PM 6/8/2000, Kevin Lyons wrote: >Is anyone concerned about the impact of BSDi's acquisition of Telenet >systems? Ordinarily, I doubt it would matter, but taken in conjunction >with the merger of BSDi and Walnut Creek, one wonders if hardware >manufacturers such as Dell, Micron, etc. will be as willing to provide >FreeBSD Inc. with sample/development hardware. > >I guess from Kirk's standpoint at BSDi, I can't blame him. BSDi was >trying to sell BSD/OS and Internet Super Server for umpteen thousand >dollars when FreeBSD is essentially free and supports more hardware >with an incredible hardware expansion program going on. BSDi may feel >that the only way they can make money and stay viable is to start selling >hardware. But the merger between Walnut Creek and BSDi is still puzzling. >Jordan and friends at FreeBSD Inc. would, I hope, reject any interference >in licensing or distribution attempts made by BSDi. After all, FreeBSD >is composed of multiple independant developers who could easily move from >Walnut Creek's CVS servers and distribution (as evidenced by NetBSD) if >forced to. > >Am I the only one wondering about this? Maybe someone higher up in the >BSD kingdom and familiar with the politics can illuminate the merger and >acquisition. > >Kevin Lyons > >- >/.sigs take up bandwidth > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 18: 1:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corserv.corserv.com (corserv.corserv.com [206.180.159.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F9137BD39 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:01:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from klyons@corserv.corserv.com) Received: (from klyons@localhost) by corserv.corserv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01102; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:14:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from klyons) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:14:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin Lyons Message-Id: <200006090114.UAA01102@corserv.corserv.com> To: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, klyons@corserv.corserv.com Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mainly because I figured anything Kurt or BSDi wanted to say about it they would have said in the press release. As it is, the press release didn't mention those points. > Why not ask Kirk et al what they have in mind? They've never been > so secretive as not to discuss such things. > > --Brett > > At 06:54 PM 6/8/2000, Kevin Lyons wrote: > > > >Is anyone concerned about the impact of BSDi's acquisition of Telenet > >systems? Ordinarily, I doubt it would matter, but taken in conjunction > >with the merger of BSDi and Walnut Creek, one wonders if hardware > >manufacturers such as Dell, Micron, etc. will be as willing to provide > >FreeBSD Inc. with sample/development hardware. > > > >I guess from Kirk's standpoint at BSDi, I can't blame him. BSDi was > >trying to sell BSD/OS and Internet Super Server for umpteen thousand > >dollars when FreeBSD is essentially free and supports more hardware > >with an incredible hardware expansion program going on. BSDi may feel > >that the only way they can make money and stay viable is to start selling > >hardware. But the merger between Walnut Creek and BSDi is still puzzling. > >Jordan and friends at FreeBSD Inc. would, I hope, reject any interference > >in licensing or distribution attempts made by BSDi. After all, FreeBSD > >is composed of multiple independant developers who could easily move from > >Walnut Creek's CVS servers and distribution (as evidenced by NetBSD) if > >forced to. > > > >Am I the only one wondering about this? Maybe someone higher up in the > >BSD kingdom and familiar with the politics can illuminate the merger and > >acquisition. > > > >Kevin Lyons > > > >- > >/.sigs take up bandwidth > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 19:22:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3D537C117 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29991; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:22:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608202057.045d2760@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:21:58 -0600 To: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, klyons@corserv.corserv.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet In-Reply-To: <200006090114.UAA01102@corserv.corserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My guess is that they're getting into the hardware space so that they can sell packaged turnkey solutions, which is what so many businesses want. --Brett At 07:14 PM 6/8/2000, Kevin Lyons wrote: >Mainly because I figured anything Kurt or BSDi wanted to say about it >they would have said in the press release. As it is, the press release >didn't mention those points. > >> Why not ask Kirk et al what they have in mind? They've never been >> so secretive as not to discuss such things. >> >> --Brett >> >> At 06:54 PM 6/8/2000, Kevin Lyons wrote: >> >> >> >Is anyone concerned about the impact of BSDi's acquisition of Telenet >> >systems? Ordinarily, I doubt it would matter, but taken in conjunction >> >with the merger of BSDi and Walnut Creek, one wonders if hardware >> >manufacturers such as Dell, Micron, etc. will be as willing to provide >> >FreeBSD Inc. with sample/development hardware. >> > >> >I guess from Kirk's standpoint at BSDi, I can't blame him. BSDi was >> >trying to sell BSD/OS and Internet Super Server for umpteen thousand >> >dollars when FreeBSD is essentially free and supports more hardware >> >with an incredible hardware expansion program going on. BSDi may feel >> >that the only way they can make money and stay viable is to start selling >> >hardware. But the merger between Walnut Creek and BSDi is still puzzling. >> >Jordan and friends at FreeBSD Inc. would, I hope, reject any interference >> >in licensing or distribution attempts made by BSDi. After all, FreeBSD >> >is composed of multiple independant developers who could easily move from >> >Walnut Creek's CVS servers and distribution (as evidenced by NetBSD) if >> >forced to. >> > >> >Am I the only one wondering about this? Maybe someone higher up in the >> >BSD kingdom and familiar with the politics can illuminate the merger and >> >acquisition. >> > >> >Kevin Lyons >> > >> >- >> >/.sigs take up bandwidth >> > >> > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 20: 0:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c1mailgw1.prontomail.com (c1mailgw1.prontomail.com [208.178.29.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9958237B614 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:00:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from c1mail01.prontomail.com (208.178.29.101) by c1mailgw1.prontomail.com (NPlex 4.5.049) id 393D754C00056447 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:00:21 -0700 Received: by c1mail01.prontomail.com (NPlex 2.0.123); Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:00:16 -0700 Received: from 200.41.108.77 by SmtpServer for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 03:00:18 +0000 Message-ID: <39405FA1.5636EBDC@asme.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 22:08:17 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Lyons Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet References: <200006090054.TAA01053@corserv.corserv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin Lyons wrote: > > Is anyone concerned about the impact of BSDi's acquisition of Telenet > systems? Ordinarily, I doubt it would matter, but taken in conjunction > with the merger of BSDi and Walnut Creek, one wonders if hardware > manufacturers such as Dell, Micron, etc. will be as willing to provide > FreeBSD Inc. with sample/development hardware. > What BSDi is clearly trying to do is to broaden their revenue sources. The relation with other hardware distributors will continue as always: I haven't heard any Linux distributor complain about VA Linux. IMHO, you are being an alarmist. Many companies are, in theory, making money out of free software, BSDi is taking some part of the cake while it can, and I think that's good. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 20:18:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FAE37C107 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:18:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA98352; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:19:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:19:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISP in Si Valley In-Reply-To: <20000607114248.A307@dialin-client.scitec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know someone who lives out there who uses meer.net, I believe they run FreeBSD, although I am not sure how much they charge. I just remember the person being able to get ahold of people there who were quite clued in to FreeBSD. On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >I hate to post the ol' "FreeBSD Friendly ISP in Here>" question, but the maillist search is not up for the task. > >I just relocated to San Jose, CA, and I know there are plenty of >readers of this list in that area. Right now I am temporarily housed >so coax cable or DSL are probably not worthwhile options. All I want >is a local phone number to dial-up to. I'd just go with one of the >national mega-ISPs, but the CDs they send out run on Windoze, which I >do not. I can imagine the phone conversation now trying to extract the >information needed to configure my PPP from one of their help desk >drones. I shudder. > >Anyone have a suggestion for a local ISP in the Valley? I just want to >call and connect, a maildrop is good but not necessary. No frills, low >bills. If anyone can reassure me that using one of the big guys, AOL, >ATT, etc., is not too painful (or the trick to make it painless), that >would be just as good. > >Thanks. >-- >Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 20:23: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A64D37B656 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:22:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00665; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:22:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608212207.045d9cb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:22:42 -0600 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ISP in Si Valley In-Reply-To: <20000607114248.A307@dialin-client.scitec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Two that are demonstrably UNIX-friendly are rahul.net and idiom.net. --Brett At 12:42 PM 6/7/2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >I hate to post the ol' "FreeBSD Friendly ISP in Here>" question, but the maillist search is not up for the task. > >I just relocated to San Jose, CA, and I know there are plenty of >readers of this list in that area. Right now I am temporarily housed >so coax cable or DSL are probably not worthwhile options. All I want >is a local phone number to dial-up to. I'd just go with one of the >national mega-ISPs, but the CDs they send out run on Windoze, which I >do not. I can imagine the phone conversation now trying to extract the >information needed to configure my PPP from one of their help desk >drones. I shudder. > >Anyone have a suggestion for a local ISP in the Valley? I just want to >call and connect, a maildrop is good but not necessary. No frills, low >bills. If anyone can reassure me that using one of the big guys, AOL, >ATT, etc., is not too painful (or the trick to make it painless), that >would be just as good. > >Thanks. >-- >Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 22:44:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B839337B7D7 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.03) id A62125E500FC; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 22:52:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3940848B.A6726C14@wiegand.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 22:45:47 -0700 From: chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roland Jesse Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <20000606151228.A24347@cichlids.cichlids.com> <0v4s76ga2o.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <00060719260100.01095@chip.wiegand.org> <0v4s74d3bl.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Roland Jesse wrote: > > Chip writes: > > > I did download the one from www.xfce.org called > > xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz which I then ran d/l'ed into > > /usr/ports/distfiles. I then ran tar xzvf xfce-etc.bin.tar.gz and > > saw on the screen all the files being extracted into the various > > directories, mostly /usr/loca/xfce/ > > That's not completely right: > How about the following: > > % cd / && (gzip -dc /usr/ports/distfiles/xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz| tar xf -) > > > Any idea what can cause this anomaly? (Is that the right word?) > > Well, I would call it correct behavior. BTW: Why are you putting > precompiled binaries into /usr/ports/distfiles? > > Roland Okay, I ran the command just like you show up above and now xfce will not start at all, I just get the gray xfwm screen, no icon bar, pager or anything other than the mouse click menu. The error message that comes up is: /usr/libexec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object "libgtk-1.2.so.5" not found I verified that I do have gtk-1.2.7 installed through pkg_info. According to the XFCE web page is will work with that. Chip Wiegand www.wiegand.org Alternative Operating Systems PS As for why I put it in /usr/ports/distfiles - I read somewhere that that was the place to install new files from, but am I to assume that is for ports only, not packages? So, then what is the proper directory to install from? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 8 22:56:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0D2337C1C3 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:56:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 68302 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2000 05:55:39 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 9 Jun 2000 05:55:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 12951 invoked by uid 211); 9 Jun 2000 05:55:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:25:38 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chip Cc: Roland Jesse , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Message-ID: <20000609112538.C12475@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: chip , Roland Jesse , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <20000606151228.A24347@cichlids.cichlids.com> <0v4s76ga2o.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <00060719260100.01095@chip.wiegand.org> <0v4s74d3bl.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <3940848B.A6726C14@wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3940848B.A6726C14@wiegand.org>; from chip@wiegand.org on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 10:45:47PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip said on Jun 8, 2000 at 22:45:47: > Roland Jesse wrote: > > > > Chip writes: > > > > > I did download the one from www.xfce.org called > > > xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz which I then ran d/l'ed into > > > /usr/ports/distfiles. I then ran tar xzvf xfce-etc.bin.tar.gz and > > > saw on the screen all the files being extracted into the various > > > directories, mostly /usr/loca/xfce/ > > > > That's not completely right: > > How about the following: > > > > % cd / && (gzip -dc /usr/ports/distfiles/xfce-3.4.0-freebsd.i386.bin.tar.gz| tar xf -) > > > > > Any idea what can cause this anomaly? (Is that the right word?) > > > > Well, I would call it correct behavior. BTW: Why are you putting > > precompiled binaries into /usr/ports/distfiles? > > > > Roland > > Okay, I ran the command just like you show up above and now xfce will > not start at all, I just get the gray xfwm screen, no icon bar, pager or > anything other than the mouse click menu. The error message that comes > up is: > /usr/libexec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object "libgtk-1.2.so.5" not found > I verified that I do have gtk-1.2.7 installed through pkg_info. > According to the XFCE web page is will work with that. In fact the gtk 1.2 series is supposed to be binary compatible, ie a later version should work with an earlier version, so this may be a problem with how the package was built and what the library is called on your system. On my FreeBSD machine the gtk library (installed from ports) is libgtk12.so.2 (this is version 1.2.6). Maybe it was called something else on the machine where the package was built. You could try symlinking your gtk library to whatever it is that the package is looking for, or you could just try building the port. I'm fairly sure I've upgraded my gtk (from the ports) since installing xfce and gnome, and have had no problems. On fast machines and with reasonable internet connections, I'd always use the ports rather than the packages. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 1:39:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C78FB37C260 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:39:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18377 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:39:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA28954; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:39:01 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <20000606151228.A24347@cichlids.cichlids.com> <0v4s76ga2o.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <00060719260100.01095@chip.wiegand.org> <0v4s74d3bl.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <3940848B.A6726C14@wiegand.org> <20000609112538.C12475@physics.iisc.ernet.in> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:25:38 +0530" Date: 09 Jun 2000 10:39:01 +0200 Message-ID: <0vaegvnt96.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > On fast machines and with reasonable internet connections, I'd > always use the ports rather than the packages. That's of course the better choice. And as xfce 3.4.0 is in the ports I deem it much more appropriate to use this one in favour of the precompiled version from xfce.org. In addition, the latter one is not linked against imlib and has therefore only xpm support. Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 2: 9: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.CX (dsl081-006-051.dsl-isp.net [64.81.6.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F79137C2AD; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:08:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by server.baldwin.CX (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA00610; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 05:08:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200006090908.FAA00610@server.baldwin.CX> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 05:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: "Eric D. Futch" Subject: RE: XFree86 + ELSA GLoria Synergy Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Jun-00 Eric D. Futch wrote: > Does any one have an ELSA GLoria Synergy 8MB PCI working under XFree86 > (any version) on Alpha? I can't seem to get it to work at all. XFree86 > 3.3.6 causes garbage on the screen then a reboot. XFree86 4.0 won't start > at all. > uname -a FreeBSD doberman.xxxxx.xx.xxx 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Wed May 31 17:19:07 EDT 2000 root@doberman.xxxxx.xx.xxx:/usr/src/sys/compile/DOBERMAN alpha From /etc/XF86Config: Section "Device" Identifier "ELSA GLoria Synergy" VendorName "Unknown" BoardName "Unknown" #VideoRam 4096 #Option "no_accel" # Insert Clocks lines here if appropriate EndSection Section "Screen" Driver "accel" Device "ELSA GLoria Synergy" Monitor "My Monitor" DefaultColorDepth 16 ... EndSection Runs KDE just fine. It uses XF86_3DLabs as the X server. > Just wondering... -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 2: 9:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.CX (dsl081-006-051.dsl-isp.net [64.81.6.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A0D37C2D2 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by server.baldwin.CX (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA00606; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 05:08:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200006090908.FAA00606@server.baldwin.CX> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 05:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: MS poll Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Jun-00 G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Just found this site , which contains a poll on > whether Microsoft should be split. Here are the current results: > > Yes, it will help the computer industry: 12.3% > Yes, because Microsoft is evil: 25.1% > No, they shouldn't be split: 14.5% > No, it doesn't solve anything: 42.4% > I don't care about that: 5.8% > Total votes: 1404 > > Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the majority (56.9%) voted no. I'm not. For the average non-geek user, have a standardized, mostly easy-to-use interface is a good thing. Most users prefer point and click to a CLI. > Adam -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 4:18:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CEA37B592 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 04:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09091; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:17:48 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:17:48 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000608184610.0494c900@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Why not ask Kirk et al what they have in mind? They've never been > so secretive as not to discuss such things. > http://www.bsdi.com/news/press/20000606 IMHO it's pretty clear. They are now a system manufacturer just like sun, compaq, ibm or similar. Except they started with the software and then bought the hardware arm 8-) > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 4:19:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D7737B592 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 04:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA51867; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:56:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:56:27 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Kevin Lyons Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet Message-ID: <20000609105627.A49205@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200006090054.TAA01053@corserv.corserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200006090054.TAA01053@corserv.corserv.com>; from klyons@corserv.corserv.com on Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 07:54:15PM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 07:54:15PM -0500, Kevin Lyons wrote: > Is anyone concerned about the impact of BSDi's acquisition of Telenet > systems? Ordinarily, I doubt it would matter, but taken in conjunction > with the merger of BSDi and Walnut Creek, one wonders if hardware > manufacturers such as Dell, Micron, etc. will be as willing to provide > FreeBSD Inc. with sample/development hardware. I suppose it's a possiblity, but that wouldn't be in their best interests. Assume that you're Dell, and you're getting requests from customers who want to use your hardware with FreeBSD, and they want to know that your hardware runs FreeBSD well. Now, are you going to make it harder for those customers (who generally have the freedom to go elsewhere for their hardware), or are you going to try and make it easier for them? Dell don't seem to be too hostile to VA Linux, who are in a similar position. > I guess from Kirk's standpoint at BSDi, I can't blame him. BSDi was > trying to sell BSD/OS and Internet Super Server for umpteen thousand > dollars when FreeBSD is essentially free and supports more hardware > with an incredible hardware expansion program going on. BSDi may feel > that the only way they can make money and stay viable is to start selling > hardware. But the merger between Walnut Creek and BSDi is still puzzling. > Jordan and friends at FreeBSD Inc. would, I hope, reject any interference > in licensing or distribution attempts made by BSDi. Yes. This has been said many times since the merger, by Jordan and others. I've spoken with Jordan about this a few times on the phone -- at the moment, the only *possible* concern for FreeBSD at the moment is that BSDI currently own the trademark "FreeBSD" in the US and a few other countries. So, if BSDI were to turn to the dark side (and, in my dealings with the people at both Walnut Creek and BSDI I've seen no evidence of this whatsoever) and we upped and moved the project, we'd have to call it something else (again, you have to assume that BSDI are capable of doing something quite so mind-bogglingly stupid). In a few [weeks|months] the paperwork for the creation of the FreeBSD Foundation will be complete, a non-profit entity in the US. It's my understanding that at that time the FreeBSD trademark will be transferred to the Foundation. > After all, FreeBSD > is composed of multiple independant developers who could easily move from > Walnut Creek's CVS servers and distribution (as evidenced by NetBSD) if > forced to. Exactly. > Am I the only one wondering about this? Maybe someone higher up in the > BSD kingdom and familiar with the politics can illuminate the merger and > acquisition. This was discussed quite extensively when the merger was announced. The archives for -chat (and, IIRC, -advocacy) would probably be a good starting point. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 5:33: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69FEE37BD67 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 05:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D64F1833D; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:32:14 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:47:10 +0200 To: Narvi , Brett Glass From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet Cc: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:17 PM +0200 2000/6/9, Narvi wrote: > IMHO it's pretty clear. They are now a system manufacturer just like sun, > compaq, ibm or similar. Except they started with the software and then > bought the hardware arm 8-) I sure hope that this means they'll build much nicer looking hardware. The stuff I've seen on the old Telenet web page looked pretty ratty, compared to some of the stuff I've seen from Cobalt and some other vendors (Sun's Netra t1 and the 220R and 420R are okay, but I'd shoot higher than that). I'm not so worried about how it will perform (although Telenet doesn't seem to have anything that can compare with how much Dell crams into their 2450), but it would be nice if we finally had a vendor in this market that actually built nice-looking hardware. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 8: 0:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2867E37C3E3; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D8EF69B09; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:00:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <006d01bfd223$7a150730$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: References: <200006090908.FAA00606@server.baldwin.CX> Subject: Re: MS poll Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:00:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On 02-Jun-00 G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > Just found this site > whether Microsoft should be split. Here are the current results: > > > > Yes, it will help the computer industry: 12.3% > > Yes, because Microsoft is evil: 25.1% > > No, they shouldn't be split: 14.5% > > No, it doesn't solve anything: 42.4% > > I don't care about that: 5.8% > > Total votes: 1404 > > > > Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the majority (56.9%) voted no. > > I'm not. For the average non-geek user, have a standardized, > mostly easy-to-use interface is a good thing. Most users prefer > point and click to a CLI. > <*secret*> That's because their brains are slower and as such there is no need for a fast, efficient, streamlined command-line interface. ;-)) For those not in the *know*, that was a joke. ;-)) No need for tar here. Dan > > Adam > > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 8:10:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8462937C44E for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:10:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 509B99B25; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:10:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00b701bfd224$da9581b0$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Neil Blakey-Milner" Cc: References: <20000608021150.A69953@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000608101634.A38441@mithrandr.moria.org> Subject: Re: kerberos and bsd license Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:10:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One retort is "GPL is a selfish license". I've only used it about three > times, but every time the persion ran off in a rage talking about > idiotic BSD zealots. Now they knows how I feel dealing with them. > > (Although maybe you had to be there, especially after the few minutes of > unprovoked attacks against FreeBSD, the BSD license, and how BSD > developers are going to destroy the world.) Yeah, but what a way to go, eh? Dan > > Neil > -- > Neil Blakey-Milner > Sunesi Clinical Systems > nbm@mithrandr.moria.org > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 9:52:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1936C37BA6B; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh17.bfm.org [216.127.220.210]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:52:43 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000609115136.008ff8a0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:51:36 -0500 To: John Baldwin From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: MS poll Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200006090908.FAA00606@server.baldwin.CX> References: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:08 09-06-2000 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > >On 02-Jun-00 G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >> Just found this site , which contains a poll on >> whether Microsoft should be split. Here are the current results: >> >> [snip] >> >> Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the majority (56.9%) voted no. > >I'm not. For the average non-geek user, have a standardized, >mostly easy-to-use interface is a good thing. Most users prefer >point and click to a CLI. That's probably true. But that site is for geeks. That is why I was surprised. Besides, the MS split is not about the interface. It is about predatory business practices. The split should, theoretically, not hurt the interface. Perhaps it will even help it since, again theoretically, there should be no more API secrets, so, if anything, more programmers will write software for it. By the way, I have just revisited the site. Now they have 2838 total votes, of which 49.4% is for the split, 46.2% against, 4.4% do not care. Of course, it's a moot point now: The judge hath spoken. I am more worried about one possible scenario I saw on one of the major sites (either ZDNet, or Wired, or one of those), namely the possibility of George W. becoming President and dropping the suit while it's being on appeal. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 10:16:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C525C37BB9B for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA16793; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:16:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:16:14 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Glass , Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:17 PM +0200 2000/6/9, Narvi wrote: > > > IMHO it's pretty clear. They are now a system manufacturer just like sun, > > compaq, ibm or similar. Except they started with the software and then > > bought the hardware arm 8-) > > I sure hope that this means they'll build much nicer looking > hardware. The stuff I've seen on the old Telenet web page looked > pretty ratty, compared to some of the stuff I've seen from Cobalt and > some other vendors (Sun's Netra t1 and the 220R and 420R are okay, > but I'd shoot higher than that). > Cobalt looks cool (and imitates SGI Origin). But to actually get cool looking hardware, one has to (horror! horror!) hire designers. For now they look just as another 'configure your beige box on the web'. Even if the do have black (generica) rackmounted enclosures. > I'm not so worried about how it will perform (although Telenet > doesn't seem to have anything that can compare with how much Dell > crams into their 2450), but it would be nice if we finally had a > vendor in this market that actually built nice-looking hardware. > Agreed. > -- > These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy > ====================================================================== > Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV > Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 > Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels > http://www.skynet.be || Belgium > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 10:44:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 207EE37BBC1 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 17946 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2000 17:44:40 -0000 Received: from du174.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.174) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2000 17:44:40 -0000 Message-ID: <39412CC6.7E900235@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:43:34 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MS poll References: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000609115136.008ff8a0@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > At 05:08 09-06-2000 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > > >On 02-Jun-00 G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >> Just found this site , which contains a poll on > >> whether Microsoft should be split. Here are the current results: > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the majority (56.9%) voted no. > > > >I'm not. For the average non-geek user, have a standardized, > >mostly easy-to-use interface is a good thing. Most users prefer > >point and click to a CLI. > > That's probably true. But that site is for geeks. That is why I was > surprised. Besides, the MS split is not about the interface. It is about > predatory business practices. How many of those votes against a breakup came from microsoft.com addresses? > The split should, theoretically, not hurt the interface. Perhaps it will > even help it since, again theoretically, there should be no more API > secrets, so, if anything, more programmers will write software for it. > > By the way, I have just revisited the site. Now they have 2838 total votes, > of which 49.4% is for the split, 46.2% against, 4.4% do not care. > > Of course, it's a moot point now: The judge hath spoken. I am more worried > about one possible scenario I saw on one of the major sites (either ZDNet, > or Wired, or one of those), namely the possibility of George W. becoming > President and dropping the suit while it's being on appeal. Don't forget that Judge Jackson is a Reagan appointee. Republicans don't automatically shut down anti-trust prosecutions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 11:27:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corserv.corserv.com (corserv.corserv.com [206.180.159.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1E437C4AB for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from klyons@corserv.corserv.com) Received: (from klyons@localhost) by corserv.corserv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02242; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:40:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from klyons) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:40:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin Lyons Message-Id: <200006091840.NAA02242@corserv.corserv.com> To: giffunip@asme.org, klyons@corserv.corserv.com Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What BSDi is clearly trying to do is to broaden their revenue sources. > The relation with other hardware distributors will continue as always: I > haven't heard any Linux distributor complain about VA Linux. > > IMHO, you are being an alarmist. Many companies are, in theory, making > money out of free software, BSDi is taking some part of the cake while > it can, and I think that's good. The analogy is not the same. The comparison would be if VA had its own brand of Linux and wanted Dell or someone else to ship them hardware to test their brand of Linux. Most things occur for a reason. A thinking man is compelled to gather facts and evaluate outcomes so I do not think it is alarmist to ask these kinds of questions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 12:35:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B974E37C403 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:35:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh17.bfm.org [216.127.220.210]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:36:16 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000609143514.008b9bb0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 14:35:14 -0500 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: MS poll In-Reply-To: <39412CC6.7E900235@mail.ptd.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000609115136.008ff8a0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:43 09-06-2000 -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >How many of those votes against a breakup came from microsoft.com >addresses? Good question. >Don't forget that Judge Jackson is a Reagan appointee. Republicans >don't automatically shut down anti-trust prosecutions. That was just a possible scenario listed in one of the online newspapers. I certainly hope that whoever the next Pres is will continue the fight. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 13:30:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c1mailgw1.prontomail.com (c1mailgw1.prontomail.com [208.178.29.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C9437B732 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from c1mail01.prontomail.com (208.178.29.101) by c1mailgw1.prontomail.com (NPlex 4.5.049) id 393D754C00067F88 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:30:14 -0700 Received: by c1mail01.prontomail.com (NPlex 2.0.123); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:30:08 -0700 Received: from 216.72.232.213 by SmtpServer for ; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 20:30:14 +0000 Message-ID: <394155AC.B0B4FDBA@asme.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:38:04 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Lyons Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet References: <200006091840.NAA02242@corserv.corserv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin Lyons wrote: > ... > > The analogy is not the same. The comparison would be if VA had its own > brand of Linux and wanted Dell or someone else to ship them hardware > to test their brand of Linux. > You mean something like Linus working for transmeta? I think a relationship will evolve, but the possibilities that something bad happens are remote. Telenet doesn't make it's own chips, and surely it's objectives don't include a hardware monopoly. > Most things occur for a reason. A thinking man is compelled to gather > facts and evaluate outcomes so I do not think it is alarmist to ask these > kinds of questions. OK, I exaggerated on the "alarmist" issue, I simply couldn't find another term. Think in terms of business, the new BSDi has to compete against the many linux distributions and "added value" companies. The BSD license is a good advantage in their business, but since they are planning to keep the development open they need other fields to keep their profit. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 16:41:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 963E137C256 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12137; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:41:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000609173938.0495cd80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 17:41:10 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Kevin Lyons From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDi acquisition of Telenet Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <394155AC.B0B4FDBA@asme.org> References: <200006091840.NAA02242@corserv.corserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:38 PM 6/9/2000, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >OK, I exaggerated on the "alarmist" issue, I simply couldn't find >another term. > >Think in terms of business, the new BSDi has to compete against the many >linux distributions and "added value" companies. The BSD license is a >good advantage in their business, but since they are planning to keep >the development open they need other fields to keep their profit. Precisely. And one way to do this is to provide physical hardware that has intrinsic value and embodies expertise. Being a custom system house is not an easy row to hoe, but there's certainly no reason why BSDi shouldn't do it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 9 17:34: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nyct.net (bsd4.nyct.net [204.141.86.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB3537B582; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 17:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from efutch@nyct.net) Received: from bsd1.nyct.net (efutch@bsd1.nyct.net [204.141.86.3]) by mail.nyct.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06364; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:34:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from efutch@nyct.net) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:34:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric D. Futch" To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: XFree86 + ELSA GLoria Synergy In-Reply-To: <200006090908.FAA00610@server.baldwin.CX> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I managed to get XFree 3.3.6 with KDE running on it ok. I think it's strange how just something a little off in the XF86Config can cause reboots. Someone mentioned a buggy PCI implementation on the Personal Workstation series of Alpha's. I'm going to stay with 3.3.6 for now, since it's acutally working :) > uname -a FreeBSD alpha.nyct.net 4.0-STABLE FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE #0: Fri Jun 2 14:11:11 EDT 2000 efutch@quake.nyct.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/ALPHA alpha > dmesg | head -10 Copyright (c) 1992-2000 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE #0: Fri Jun 2 14:11:11 EDT 2000 root@alpha.nyct.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/ALPHA Digital Personal Workstation (Miata) Digital Personal WorkStation 500au, 500MHz 8192 byte page size, 1 processor. CPU: EV56 (21164A) major=7 minor=0 extensions=0x1 OSF PAL rev: 0x1000000020116 Thanks anyway :) -- Eric Futch New York Connect.Net, Ltd. efutch@nyct.net Technical Support Staff http://www.nyct.net (212) 293-2620 "Bringing New York The Internet Access It Deserves" KNYC: 09-Jun-00 19:51 EDT: 82.0 F (27.8 C), mostly cloudy, humidity 58% To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 10 8:46:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F56B37BBB4 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA09118; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:46:07 -0700 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 08:46:07 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200006101546.IAA09118@sharmas.dhs.org> To: abm311@yahoo.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: QUESTION on SYSINSTALL In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:57:30 GMT, dave wrote: > I'm trying to get freeBSD to see my NIC card. How do I get the sysinstall to > execute? > I know nothing about unix. What's the command? /stand/sysinstall -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 10 13:10:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c1mailgw4.prontomail.com (admin.commtouch.com [208.178.29.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7671E37BCD5 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from c1mail01.prontomail.com (208.178.29.101) by c1mailgw4.prontomail.com (NPlex 4.5.049) id 393D752B00067525 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:10:09 -0700 Received: by c1mail01.prontomail.com (NPlex 2.0.123); Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:10:01 -0700 Received: from 200.41.109.239 by SmtpServer for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:10:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3942A250.C94E79AD@asme.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:17:20 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Softpanorama: (slightly skeptical) Open Source Software Educational Society Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Remember the Slashdot article that reported an academic critic of Eric Raymond? Well, you might enjoy this; www-4.ibm.com/software/developer/library/merrier.html and http://www.softpanorama.org/OSS/webliography.shtml cheers, Pedro. PS. let's try not to have another flamewar OK? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 10 13:56:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oracle.clara.net (oracle.clara.net [195.8.69.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB69137BEB6; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from merlin@netlink.co.uk) Received: from [212.126.141.36] (helo=ratsalad.co.uk) by oracle.clara.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 130sJ4-000EJC-00; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:56:39 +0100 Received: by ratsalad.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3CE50190A; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:01:16 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:01:15 +0000 From: Darren Wyn Rees To: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FREEBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Power to Serve England Message-ID: <20000610210115.J46015@netlink.co.uk> Reply-To: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt 1.2i (FreeBSD) X-No-Archive: yes X-PGP-812C54B1: F8 79 5E 84 F0 20 A5 62 FA 2D E9 BD BE 06 7D 10 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The NEW england.* USENET project is managed using FreeBSD OS. england.* - "For people living in England and ANYONE with an interest in England." Although the website is currently hosted on a Linux server, this will move to FreeBSD 4.0-release soon (if it hasn't already). See http://www.england.news-admin.org/ for more details. Most of the Major UK ISPs have already added these groups, eg. Freeserve (Planet Online) and Netcom UK etc. If your ISP does not carry these groups, and you would like to read them, then write to your ISP asking them to add the groups, for YOU. There's a list of groups here http://www.england.news-admin.org/checkgroups.html If there is anyone out there willing to donate FreeBSD server space to host this project's pages, then please contact admin@england.news-admin.org. Darren (followups freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org) - -- this is my .sig, show me yours -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBOUKr3Dz2ljeBLFSxAQGzagP9EyHT8nZjeDVjfNM0jdqMUGVNwfK8iycK ZU3dIVc290AYmHpI/2rpAmX/YkVNYvJZodAK8yzbgXlcI+O1Z296Tr9CcdUlWEUe 5px13wBXHSCuwh31KP0gtl1orxGq435TyP3k8cxpdYOz7kW9ATMsQq+6FPaI1Ce0 ZJA0woSf0Tc= =CTCR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 10 16:18: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E3E37B877; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.88.75]) by mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000611001732.ISNR10065.mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:17:32 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00701; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:17:54 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:17:53 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Jamie Jones Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Power to Serve England Message-ID: <20000611001753.D233@parish> References: <20000610235213.A233@parish> <200006102300.AAA34070@bishopston.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200006102300.AAA34070@bishopston.net>; from jamie@bishopston.net on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 12:00:43AM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Cc: changed to -chat as it seems more appropriate] On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 12:00:43AM +0100, Jamie Jones wrote: > > > Well, since Plaid Cymru and the SNP fought for, and have got, > > the first step towards independence, because they wanted Wales and > > Scotland to have a separate identity to England, why is it so wrong > > for we English to have a separate identity from Scotland and Wales? > > > > I wouldn't have a problem with > > {wales,scotland,ireland}.{consultants,jobs,media.tv} etc. > > > > Maybe you, personally, don't hold with devolution but many do and they > > can't have it both ways. > > I thought I made it clear that I was referring to the practicalities > of duplicating newsgroups, across hierarchies which are similar as > far as the above mentioned newsgroups are concerned. > > This has nothing to do with devloution, or the politics thereof. > The following, from you original post sounded political to me: I can see no reason shouldn't be under the uk heirarchy, or is this more a political than geographical split ? [snip] What are so special about these groups, as to not include us Welsh, or the Scots and Irish ? If they weren't meant that way then I apologize, I'm not trying to start a political debate/flamewar here. > I don't have a "problem" with england.* groups, but it seems silly > to recreate groups in england.* that are already in uk.* where there > is no cultural reason to have them duplicated inside england.* (or > indeed wales.* etc) > A quick search of my ISPs newsgroups for "england" only threw up these (except for New England related ones): alt.england.sux alt.england.sux.scotland.and.wales.rule.the.world alt.england.sux.wales.and.scotland.rule.the.world [no comment] > I hope the people who set up england.* don't have the same chip on > their shoulder that you seem to! > I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I obviously misinterpreted your comments and I apologize. > Cheers, > Jamie > > .. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Want a lean, mean, computing machine? Get rid of that excess FAT - install FreeBSD ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 10 16:38:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D618237B7DD for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 16:38:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.88.75]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000610233811.MJGW290.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:38:11 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00888; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:38:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:38:09 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Jamie Jones Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Power to Serve England Message-ID: <20000611003809.G233@parish> References: <20000610235213.A233@parish> <200006102300.AAA34070@bishopston.net> <20000611001753.D233@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000611001753.D233@parish>; from mark@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 12:17:53AM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 12:17:53AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > [snip] > The following, from you original post sounded political to me: > > I can see no reason shouldn't be > under the uk heirarchy, or is this more a political than > geographical split ? > > [snip] > > What are so special about these groups, as to not include us > Welsh, or the Scots and Irish ? > Having actually visited the URL in the original post I find: There are MANY news hierarchies related to this part of the world including, but not limited to: uk.* scot.* wales.* ie.* (Ireland) ni.* (Northern Ireland) south-wales.* england.* is the newest hierarchy to join the fold. So perhaps I should be asking "What are so special about the scot.* and wales.* groups, as to not include we English" [ducks and runs] :) -- Want a lean, mean, computing machine? Get rid of that excess FAT - install FreeBSD ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 10 17:11: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (h24-68-200-91.cg.shawcable.net [24.68.200.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447C837C72B for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@bishopston.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA91863; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:09:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA91576; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:07:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:07:22 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200006110007.BAA91576@bishopston.net> To: jamie@bishopston.net, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Power to Serve England In-Reply-To: <20000611001753.D233@parish> Status: R Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The following, from you original post sounded political to me: > > I can see no reason shouldn't be > under the uk heirarchy, or is this more a political than > geographical split ? > > [snip] > > What are so special about these groups, as to not include us > Welsh, or the Scots and Irish ? > > If they weren't meant that way then I apologize, I'm not trying to start > a political debate/flamewar here. Sorry, I should have been clearer. I mentioned "political" in that I hoped this wasn't due to a political agenda, as I didn't think it was an appropriate reason in this case. The mention of "Welsh, Scots and Irish" was meant to show that there was no logical reason in splitting off these groups, not to emphasise a political issue. > A quick search of my ISPs newsgroups for "england" only threw up these > (except for New England related ones): > > alt.england.sux > alt.england.sux.scotland.and.wales.rule.the.world > alt.england.sux.wales.and.scotland.rule.the.world > > [no comment] Damn. How did you know I created those ? :-) > I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I obviously misinterpreted your > comments and I apologize. No need to apologise. I obviously wasn't clear enough. Like you, the last thing I want to do is make a political issue out of this. Cheers, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 10 17:14:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (h24-68-200-91.cg.shawcable.net [24.68.200.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11CC37B78F for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:14:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@bishopston.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA95981; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:14:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:14:05 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200006110014.BAA95981@bishopston.net> To: jamie@bishopston.net, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: The Power to Serve England Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000611003809.G233@parish> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Having actually visited the URL in the original post I find: > > There are MANY news hierarchies related to this part of the > world including, but not limited to: > > uk.* > scot.* > wales.* > ie.* (Ireland) > ni.* (Northern Ireland) > south-wales.* > > england.* is the newest hierarchy to join the fold. > > So perhaps I should be asking "What are so special about the scot.* > and wales.* groups, as to not include we English" > > [ducks and runs] :) After my post, I noticed those too.. I didn't know all those existed.. Damn, I hoped you wouldn't see them :-) If they contains things more "generic" than: wales.sheep-shagging wales.mining wales.valleychoirs wales.funny-languages-with-loads-of-vowels.gogogoch wales.taffy-ate-my-leek scot.haggis scot.caber-tossing etc., then I'd have to agree with you! :-) Cheers, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 10 17:27:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A0237B78F for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:27:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.88.75]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000611002723.MMSU290.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:27:23 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01124; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:27:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:27:22 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Jamie Jones Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Power to Serve England Message-ID: <20000611012722.I233@parish> References: <20000611003809.G233@parish> <200006110014.BAA95981@bishopston.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200006110014.BAA95981@bishopston.net>; from jamie@bishopston.net on Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:14:05AM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:14:05AM +0100, Jamie Jones wrote: > > > Having actually visited the URL in the original post I find: > > > > There are MANY news hierarchies related to this part of the > > world including, but not limited to: > > > > uk.* > > scot.* > > wales.* > > ie.* (Ireland) > > ni.* (Northern Ireland) > > south-wales.* > > > > england.* is the newest hierarchy to join the fold. > > > > So perhaps I should be asking "What are so special about the scot.* > > and wales.* groups, as to not include we English" > > > > [ducks and runs] :) > > After my post, I noticed those too.. I didn't know all those existed.. > Damn, I hoped you wouldn't see them :-) > > If they contains things more "generic" than: > > wales.sheep-shagging ROFL. I can relate to that. After all, I was dancing with a blow-up sheep in the pub last night :-/ > wales.mining > wales.valleychoirs > wales.funny-languages-with-loads-of-vowels.gogogoch Yes, I can pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwilllantysiliogoggoch (why does ispell(1) show that as an unknown word?) > wales.taffy-ate-my-leek > scot.haggis > scot.caber-tossing > > etc., then I'd have to agree with you! > > :-) > > Cheers, Jamie > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Want a lean, mean, computing machine? Get rid of that excess FAT - install FreeBSD ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message