From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 5: 1:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B5237B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 05:01:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA34991; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:01:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/units units.1 References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Mar 2001 14:01:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: David Scheidt's message of "Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:30:54 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > Thanks for making me dig up my copy of that CD and listen to it. It'd been > a long time. Heh. Now look what you did, you went and made me put all of mine on :) DES (it's a one time thing, it just happens a lot...) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 5:28:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9390637B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 05:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA35103; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:28:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Tyler K McGeorge" Cc: "Damien Tougas" , Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Mar 2001 14:28:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Tyler K McGeorge"'s message of "Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:02:10 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Tyler K McGeorge" writes: > | I am in the process of learning C programming, but I seem to running > | up against a bit of a problem: I have nothing to program. > I seem to have the same problem. I've learned several languages, but all on > personal projects. By the time I got to C, I ran out of projects. [...] Lucky for you, we have a whole batch of projects just waiting for someone to work on them: http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi They're not all really that hard. Many of them can probably be closed without any more action than verifying the bug they report no longer exists, or never existed in the first place. If you're looking for something more long-term, try this page: http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ If you're serious about it and do useful work you'll end up with commit bits in no time :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 7:37:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC74737B719 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.9.218] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14c7uJ-0004gv-00; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:37:19 -0700 From: Joe Warner To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Tyler K McGeorge" Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:13:05 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: "Damien Tougas" , References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01031108370900.00256@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, I'm jumping in on this one.. Like others in this thread, I've come to the realization that learning to program with FreeBSD would be beneficial. I've used FreeBSD for a year now and still have zero programming experience. I spent $200+ on O'Reilly books for C, Python and Perl but still don't know which book I should start reading first. Most of those with programming experience I have talked to have recommended I start with C but didn't provide clear explanations as to why. I understand that if you learn C, then most other object oriented languages will be easier to learn. Can't I start with, say Python? I've read a lot of exciting things this language can do and that it's been gaining a lot of recent popularity. When I decide upon a language, where should I start? With books? College courses? Both? For me, programming has always seemed like this obscure/unreachable plateau populated by members of a secret society of gurus that speak their own language. Kind of like the stock market and it's traders and analysts. 8^) Regards Joe You know you're in trouble when your wife asks you; "Would you like me any better if I had a square face?" -me On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Tyler K McGeorge" writes: > > | I am in the process of learning C programming, but I seem to running > > | up against a bit of a problem: I have nothing to program. > > I seem to have the same problem. I've learned several languages, but all on > > personal projects. By the time I got to C, I ran out of projects. [...] > > Lucky for you, we have a whole batch of projects just waiting for > someone to work on them: > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi > > They're not all really that hard. Many of them can probably be closed > without any more action than verifying the bug they report no longer > exists, or never existed in the first place. If you're looking for > something more long-term, try this page: > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ > > If you're serious about it and do useful work you'll end up with > commit bits in no time :) > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 8:10:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B406837B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:10:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA35833; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:10:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Joe Warner Cc: "Tyler K McGeorge" , "Damien Tougas" , Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <01031108370900.00256@blackmirror.xmission.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Mar 2001 17:10:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: Joe Warner's message of "Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:13:05 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Warner writes: > I understand that if you learn C, then most other object oriented languages > will be easier to learn. C isn't object-oriented. The best description one can give of C is "portable assembly language". > Can't I start with, say Python? I've read a lot of exciting things > this language can do and that it's been gaining a lot of recent > popularity. C has been gaining popularity for 30 years, and there are literally billions of lines of C code floating around on the 'net for you to hack on and learn from; 6,862,599 of them are in the FreeBSD source tree[1]. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org [1] -CURRENT as of ~15 hours ago, the figure is certainly higher now. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 9:26: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C192C37B719 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:26:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.33] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14c9bV-0004gi-00; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:26:02 -0700 From: Joe Warner To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:18:47 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: "Tyler K McGeorge" , "Damien Tougas" , References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <01031108370900.00256@blackmirror.xmission.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01031110255100.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, thanks. So, it's obvious you recommend I start with C. What's the next step? Start reading my books? Check out the sites on the web, like the one's you mentioned previously? Register for some related college courses? All of the above? How did you get started? Thanks Joe On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Joe Warner writes: > > I understand that if you learn C, then most other object oriented languages > > will be easier to learn. > > C isn't object-oriented. The best description one can give of C is > "portable assembly language". > > > Can't I start with, say Python? I've read a lot of exciting things > > this language can do and that it's been gaining a lot of recent > > popularity. > > C has been gaining popularity for 30 years, and there are literally > billions of lines of C code floating around on the 'net for you to > hack on and learn from; 6,862,599 of them are in the FreeBSD source > tree[1]. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > [1] -CURRENT as of ~15 hours ago, the figure is certainly higher now. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 9:42:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C40437B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA36303; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:42:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Joe Warner Cc: "Tyler K McGeorge" , "Damien Tougas" , Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <01031108370900.00256@blackmirror.xmission.com> <01031110255100.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Mar 2001 18:42:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: Joe Warner's message of "Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:18:47 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Warner writes: > What's the next step? Start reading my books? Pretty much, yeah. And read source code, and toy with it. Find something in /usr/src that's not too big, make modifications and see how they affect the program's behaviour. > How did you get started? Programming C, or hacking FreeBSD? I switched to C after several years of BASIC and Pascal, on a recommendation from my eldest brother. I got my FreeBSD commit privileges for fixing deadlocks in the console driver which I stumbled over while toying with Mike's splashkit and trying to write a graphical screensaver (which later became logo_saver). Prior to that, I had submitted a handful of PRs about bugs in configuration files and scripts. The kernel scared the beejezus out of me at that time :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 9:57:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F310237B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.33] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14cA5b-00080y-00; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:57:07 -0700 From: Joe Warner To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:45:23 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: "Tyler K McGeorge" , "Damien Tougas" , References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <01031110255100.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01031110565703.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >And read source code, and toy with it. Find > something in /usr/src that's not too big, make modifications and see > how they affect the program's behaviour. Indeed. I had thought of this some time ago. One of the main advantages of Open Source. I had thought of doing this with the source for a simple text editor that I don't use very often. > Programming C, or hacking FreeBSD? The prior. >I switched to C after several years of BASIC and Pascal, >on a recommendation from my eldest brother. Do you recommend starting with another language as a stepping stone before diving into C or is it all right to just begin with C? >The kernel scared the beejezus out of me at that time :) It would probably cause me to have a stroke, I've only done "Hello World". 8^) Joe On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Joe Warner writes: > > What's the next step? Start reading my books? > > Pretty much, yeah. And read source code, and toy with it. Find > something in /usr/src that's not too big, make modifications and see > how they affect the program's behaviour. > > > How did you get started? > > Programming C, or hacking FreeBSD? I switched to C after several years > of BASIC and Pascal, on a recommendation from my eldest brother. I got > my FreeBSD commit privileges for fixing deadlocks in the console > driver which I stumbled over while toying with Mike's splashkit and > trying to write a graphical screensaver (which later became > logo_saver). Prior to that, I had submitted a handful of PRs about > bugs in configuration files and scripts. The kernel scared the > beejezus out of me at that time :) > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 10:25:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F38437B71A for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:25:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA36458; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:25:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Joe Warner Cc: "Tyler K McGeorge" , "Damien Tougas" , Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <01031110255100.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> <01031110565703.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Mar 2001 19:25:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: Joe Warner's message of "Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:45:23 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Warner writes: > > I switched to C after several years of BASIC and Pascal, > > on a recommendation from my eldest brother. > Do you recommend starting with another language as a stepping stone before > diving into C or is it all right to just begin with C? Start with C, and no matter what anyone says, stay away from C++ until you really understand C. Other people will say "start with Java" or "start with Perl" or "start with Python" or "start with Ruby"... but Perl will only teach you bad habits, Java will probably only frustrate you with its extremely slow edit-compile-run cycle, and while Python and Ruby are fine languages, they won't prepare you for C (and you *will* end up hacking C sooner or later...) Any other language will be either too old to be of interest, or lack the large base of existing documentation and code that C, C++, Perl, Java, and lately Python and Ruby enjoy. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 11:15:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 003E137B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:15:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.7.72] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14cBJK-0000UH-00; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:15:23 -0700 From: Joe Warner To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:13:16 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: "Tyler K McGeorge" , "Damien Tougas" , References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <01031110565703.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01031112151205.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, thanks! Now to find the most precious of all commodities,....time. 8^) Joe On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Joe Warner writes: > > > I switched to C after several years of BASIC and Pascal, > > > on a recommendation from my eldest brother. > > Do you recommend starting with another language as a stepping stone before > > diving into C or is it all right to just begin with C? > > Start with C, and no matter what anyone says, stay away from C++ until > you really understand C. > > Other people will say "start with Java" or "start with Perl" or "start > with Python" or "start with Ruby"... but Perl will only teach you bad > habits, Java will probably only frustrate you with its extremely slow > edit-compile-run cycle, and while Python and Ruby are fine languages, > they won't prepare you for C (and you *will* end up hacking C sooner > or later...) Any other language will be either too old to be of > interest, or lack the large base of existing documentation and code > that C, C++, Perl, Java, and lately Python and Ruby enjoy. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 11:25: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACBD37B719 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:24:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f2BJOgK26618; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:24:42 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:20:22 +0100 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Tyler K McGeorge" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Cc: "Damien Tougas" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:28 PM +0100 3/11/01, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Lucky for you, we have a whole batch of projects just waiting for > someone to work on them: > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi > > They're not all really that hard. Many of them can probably be closed > without any more action than verifying the bug they report no longer > exists, or never existed in the first place. The problem with these PRs is that they assume you're already an experienced programmer, and that you understand the context in which the patch is being made. Unfortunately, those two things are precisely what programmers new to C almost certainly don't have. Even if they're otherwise experienced programmers, simply dumping them in the deep end of the ocean and telling them to "sink or swim" is likely to end up with most of them sinking fairly rapidly. > If you're looking for > something more long-term, try this page: > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ Moof! I looked at this page. There's all sorts of stuff here, but it's things like the Ganger & Platt "softupdates" papers, the page describing the vinum logical volume manager, a link to the page for the Coda distributed filesystem, the pages describing the efforts to port FreeBSD to Alpha, PowerPC, SPARC, and other hardware platforms, etc.... Unfortunately, I didn't see a single thing here that would be appropriate for an experienced programmer to use as their reason for introducing themselves to C, or as a project that a a new programmer could jump into and start programming for the first time. Much better would be a page that had links to descriptions of projects that have been envisaged by members of the FreeBSD project as being necessary or desirable, but which have not yet been taken on by someone, or where new programmers (or experienced programmers that are new to C) would be able to jump in and start doing work. In other words, a page with links to descriptions, specifications, and maybe even some designs for programs (with some data flow diagrams, etc...), but where there hasn't yet been any code produced. Myself, I took a Numerical Methods class when I was a Junior in college, and many programming languages were allowed for this class but C was not on the list. With the instructors permission (and cooperation from the guy who was grading the programs), I was allowed to use C, while everyone else was using Pascal, FORTRAN, or Basic. This was an interesting enough topic and use for my skills that I was always the first person to turn in the homework, I always got a perfect score on my homework, and I always turned in the most accurate answers (because I used extended precision features within C to push the hardware to the limits of its capabilities). My programs probably ran faster and were more efficient than anyone else's, too. I followed this up by writing a terminal locking program my senior year, and by the time I was done the program had five or six different ways to specify the password to be used, had an automatic count-down timer to log you out if you didn't come back soon enough, could automatically run programs and collect their output on a periodicity you specified (so that you could run fortune and have it updated every minute), and could even display a graphics-mode page for those terminals capable of it (think Zenith z39a). At the time I left, there were only two people on that system that weren't using it, and both of them were senior staff systems administrators that knew of bugs in the system calls I was using to actually perform the lock. They also knew that the other person was such a prankster that if they used this program to lock their terminal and then went away, they would return to find a joke had been played on them. I believe I contributed that program to comp.sources.lang.c before I left, but I'd be damned if I could find it again. Of course, a terminal-locking program in these days of ssh and X terminals is not a particularly useful thing to have, so it's not like it really matters. But it was a fascinating tool to write at the time, and it was an interesting way to get into a little systems programming. -- Brad Knowles, #!/usr/bin/perl -w # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order # Usage: # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 12:20:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.com (mailout00.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A4637B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:20:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.cichlids.com) Received: from fwd03.sul.t-online.com by mailout00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14cCJr-00058U-04; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:19:59 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.156.17.28]) by fmrl03.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 14cCJg-1dON4SC; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:19:48 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53282AB44; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:20:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5562914A5A; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:19:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:19:54 +0100 To: Joe Warner Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Tyler K McGeorge , Damien Tougas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Message-ID: <20010311211954.A24659@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <01031110255100.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> <01031110565703.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01031110565703.00538@blackmirror.xmission.com>; from rootman@xmission.com on Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 10:45:23AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@cichlids.cichlids.com (Alexander Langer) X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Joe Warner (rootman@xmission.com): > Do you recommend starting with another language as a stepping stone before > diving into C or is it all right to just begin with C? Beginning with C is quite fine. After that, I personally recommend looking at other models as well. I mean object oriented programming as well as functional programming. The latter gives many new aspects and a complete point of you, and you'll benefit from that also when you use imperative languages. Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 13:35:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA3CC37B719 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:35:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 14450 invoked by uid 100); 11 Mar 2001 21:35:31 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15019.61347.106065.498844@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:35:31 -0600 To: Joe Warner , Brad Knowles Cc: Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda In-Reply-To: <01031108370900.00256@blackmirror.xmission.com> References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <01031108370900.00256@blackmirror.xmission.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Warner types: > Ok, I'm jumping in on this one.. > Most of those with programming experience I have talked to have recommended I > start with C but didn't provide clear explanations as to why. They're probably thinking that it's the one that will be most useful over the long run. For instance, the only other programming languages included in FreeBSD by default are Perl and the assembler, both of which are used as part of the kernel build. [Yes, I know I'm ignoring sh, sed, awk, etc.] The downside to C as first language is the complete lack of any kind of training wheels. There are all kinds of errors that you stop making and typically instantly recognize with experience that C won't help you find, but other languages either prevent, or catch and tell you about. Things like uninitialized variables, reusing freed memory and bad pointers. Trying to learn the fundamentals of programming while dealing with this stuff is a load. Not impossible to deal with, but it is avoidable. > I understand that if you learn C, then most other object oriented languages > will be easier to learn. Can't I start with, say Python? I've read a lot of > exciting things this language can do and that it's been gaining a lot of recent > popularity. No reason not to - except the popularity issue. It's not part of the FreeBSD base system, and it's hard to find work writing python; it's easier to find work where you can write whatever you want. Personally, I like it and write a lot of it. > When I decide upon a language, where should I start? With books? College > courses? Both? Whichever is more comfortable for you. If you start with books, you'll want to chose some that have exercises, and make sure you do them - that's the project for you. > For me, programming has always seemed like this obscure/unreachable plateau > populated by members of a secret society of gurus that speak their own language. > Kind of like the stock market and it's traders and analysts. 8^) If you decide you want to use Python and books, drop me a note offline. Brad Knowles types: > At 2:28 PM +0100 3/11/01, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Lucky for you, we have a whole batch of projects just waiting for > > someone to work on them: > > > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi > > > > They're not all really that hard. Many of them can probably be closed > > without any more action than verifying the bug they report no longer > > exists, or never existed in the first place. > > The problem with these PRs is that they assume you're already an > experienced programmer, and that you understand the context in which > the patch is being made. Unfortunately, those two things are > precisely what programmers new to C almost certainly don't have. > Even if they're otherwise experienced programmers, simply dumping > them in the deep end of the ocean and telling them to "sink or swim" > is likely to end up with most of them sinking fairly rapidly. After I learned programming in the first place, I've found debugging to be one of the easiest ways to get into another language. You don't have to deal with the bookkeeping involved in getting an application started, you probably don't have to worry about program design or anything like that. You have code in the language you're interested to examine that mostly meets a specification - all you have to do is figure out why it's different, and correct it. It's certainly better than being given a man page and told "write this". If you approach it correctly, debugging is the only skill you need to learn. Given a man page and being told to "write this", you find the program that does something close to what you want, and debug it. This does stretch the meaning of debugging to include fixing bugs like "needs feature X". At the extreme you can't find that program, so you start with a copy of /dev/null, and debug that. > > If you're looking for > > something more long-term, try this page: > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ > Moof! I looked at this page. There's all sorts of stuff here, > but it's things like the Ganger & Platt "softupdates" papers, the > page describing the vinum logical volume manager, a link to the page > for the Coda distributed filesystem, the pages describing the efforts > to port FreeBSD to Alpha, PowerPC, SPARC, and other hardware > platforms, etc.... You seem to have started at the hard stuff and not looked much further than that. There is also a list of applications that are being ported or developed. The most interesting - and most needed - of the latter is libh, which is a replacement for the install and package systems. That's got a noticably shallower learning curve than anything you mentioned. > Unfortunately, I didn't see a single thing here that would be > appropriate for an experienced programmer to use as their reason for > introducing themselves to C, or as a project that a a new programmer > could jump into and start programming for the first time. What you missed is that most - if not all - of these are *team* projects. If one of them looks interesting, you shouyld contact the project coordinator, and see if they have something for you to do. > Much better would be a page that had links to descriptions of > projects that have been envisaged by members of the FreeBSD project > as being necessary or desirable, but which have not yet been taken on > by someone, or where new programmers (or experienced programmers that > are new to C) would be able to jump in and start doing work. It think you just described the empty set. If something is envisioned by a team member as both desirable or necessary, *and* is simple enough that people with no C experience - or no programming experience - can obviously do it themselves, then the team member probably just *wrote* it. Here's an example. I want a tool that does what "pkg_version -c" does, with the addition that it rebuilds packages that require the out of date package as well. I've looked at it more than once, and have as yet to write a line of code. I think this meets your requirements, but when you get into it, there are some *nasty* headaches that I couldn't solve. The package system has changed since then, so the headaches I ran into may be gone. As a final note - failing FreeBSD directly, there are some sites that let people list projects they are willing to pay to have done. You might try looking at those. The problem is the same as the FreeBSD project, though - there are talented programmers considering the same projects, and anything simple enough for an inexperienced programmer has probably already been taken by one of them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 14:58:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zeus.carroll.com (zeus.carroll.com [199.224.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8792837B71B for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:58:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from damien@sprig.tougas.net) Received: from sprig.tougas.net [216.44.20.42] by zeus.carroll.com with ESMTP (8.9.3/0) id RAA13570; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from damien@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f2BMuWj01155; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:56:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from damien) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:56:31 -0500 From: Damien Tougas To: Brad Knowles Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Message-ID: <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 08:20:22PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 08:20:22PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > The problem with these PRs is that they assume you're already an >experienced programmer, and that you understand the context in which >the patch is being made. Unfortunately, those two things are >precisely what programmers new to C almost certainly don't have. >Even if they're otherwise experienced programmers, simply dumping >them in the deep end of the ocean and telling them to "sink or swim" >is likely to end up with most of them sinking fairly rapidly. I have to agree with you. I have looked at these many times with the intent that maybe this would be a good place for me to start, but never really go very far. There always seemed like there was a very high barrier to entry. Perhaps a problem with a SCSI device (which I don't have), which deals with the kernel (which I am not ready for), and requires that I understand the inner workings of FreeBSD intimately (which takes a significant amount of time, even for an experienced programmer). >> If you're looking for something more long-term, try this page: >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ > > Moof! I looked at this page. There's all sorts of stuff here, >but it's things like the Ganger & Platt "softupdates" papers, the >page describing the vinum logical volume manager, a link to the page >for the Coda distributed filesystem, the pages describing the efforts >to port FreeBSD to Alpha, PowerPC, SPARC, and other hardware >platforms, etc.... > > Unfortunately, I didn't see a single thing here that would be >appropriate for an experienced programmer to use as their reason for >introducing themselves to C, or as a project that a a new programmer >could jump into and start programming for the first time. Again, I agree with you. I have thought of this before; what am I to do, e-mail Greg Lehey, and tell him that I want to learn C, and that I think cutting my teeth on Vinum would be a good start? I think that it would be rather inappropriate. I thought (and thus the reason for my original post) that it would be better to post the question to a mailing list and see what pops up. I would rather someone respond to me and say, 'Hey, we could use a junior guy here on stuff we are working on, would you like to join in?', instead of me trying to pry myself into something where I might be unwelcome. > Much better would be a page that had links to descriptions of >projects that have been envisaged by members of the FreeBSD project >as being necessary or desirable, but which have not yet been taken on >by someone, or where new programmers (or experienced programmers that >are new to C) would be able to jump in and start doing work. > > In other words, a page with links to descriptions, >specifications, and maybe even some designs for programs (with some >data flow diagrams, etc...), but where there hasn't yet been any code >produced. Now this is something what I would be interested in. I mean, there has to be lots of stuff that is easy, a little more mundane for an experienced FreeBSD programmer, but perfect for someone who was just starting out. For example, I would be perfectly happy writing makefiles, tweaking/writing a man page, or adding a tiny new feature/switch to an existing utility. I mean, someone had to write the little programs such as echo or cal. There must be other things of similar calibre that need to be done, it can't all be complicated stuff. A web page like you are talking about would be good, but I'm not sure exactly how much easy stuff there is that is designed but not implemented. I think that working on the easy portions of more complicated stuff would also be a very valuable learning experience. Of course, in order to be able to do that sort of stuff, one has to pretty much hook up with an existing developer and get these small things assigned and done quickly as they come up. This type of relationship would obviously not work that well for everyone, but that's ok, I wouldn't want to work with someone who thinks I am just a burden. > Myself, I took a Numerical Methods class when I was a Junior in >college, and many programming languages were allowed for this class >but C was not on the list. With the instructors permission (and >cooperation from the guy who was grading the programs), I was allowed >to use C, while everyone else was using Pascal, FORTRAN, or Basic. I went to University and got my degree in Civil Engineering. We actually did a course on programming (Fortran), some physics, and tons of courses in math, calculus, and linear algebra. We then took a course which focused on taking all of that math, calculus, and linear algebra and writing computer programs to solve those problems. I loved it, and couldn't get enough. In fact, I loved it so much I left the field of Civil Engineering 3 years ago to pursue my career in computers. A year later, I discovered FreeBSD, I was instantly hooked, and within another 12 months moved the US to accept a position as a Senior Unix (FreeBSD) systems administrator. The next step for me is to jump in to learning how to program on this system. -- Damien Tougas Systems Administrator Carroll-Net, Inc. http://www.carroll.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 15:15:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AFDE737B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:15:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 64918 invoked by uid 100); 11 Mar 2001 23:15:27 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15020.1807.762080.742959@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:15:27 -0600 To: Damien Tougas Cc: Brad Knowles , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda In-Reply-To: <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Damien Tougas types: > Again, I agree with you. I have thought of this before; what am I to > do, e-mail Greg Lehey, and tell him that I want to learn C, and that I > think cutting my teeth on Vinum would be a good start? Basically, yes. Vinum is listed on the projects page, which is referenced as a way to contribute to freebsd. Presumably, they need help. Possibly not the kind you can offer, though. > I think that it would be rather inappropriate. Attitude is everything. If your attitude is that you are somehow owed a place on the project, that's inappropriate. If you ask if there is something you can do, that's perfectly appropriate. The text you chose is somewhere between those two positions. Of course, there *are* projects that don't have as steep a learning curve as vinum. You're more likely to find a place on those. > I thought (and thus the reason for my original post) that it would > be better to post the question to a mailing list and see what pops > up. I would rather someone respond to me and say, 'Hey, we could use > a junior guy here on stuff we are working on, would you like to join > in?', instead of me trying to pry myself into something where I > might be unwelcome. Trying to pry yourself is certainly unwelcome. Offering to help shouldn't be. Asking for suggestion on the -chat list is certainly a good idea. > Now this is something what I would be interested in. I mean, there has > to be lots of stuff that is easy, a little more mundane for an > experienced FreeBSD programmer, but perfect for someone who was just > starting out. For example, I would be perfectly happy writing > makefiles, tweaking/writing a man page, or adding a tiny new > feature/switch to an existing utility. Some of this is stuff you can just *do*. For instance, if you notice that some question is showing up on -questions frequently but there isn't a FAQ entry, write one. For man pages, if you notice a command or file doesn't have a man page - just write one. For the latter you need to have a copy of -current running, but you can dual boot -stable and -current. They can even share swap, ports and /usr/local, though the last takes some work. > I think that working on the easy portions of more complicated stuff > would also be a very valuable learning experience. Of course, in order > to be able to do that sort of stuff, one has to pretty much hook up > with an existing developer and get these small things assigned and > done quickly as they come up. This type of relationship would > obviously not work that well for everyone, but that's ok, I wouldn't > want to work with someone who thinks I am just a burden. Well, the things on the projects page should have project coordinators listed. That's the person who would assign you small things, and the one you should contact. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 16:28: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zeus.carroll.com (zeus.carroll.com [199.224.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DF337B719 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from damien@sprig.tougas.net) Received: from sprig.tougas.net [216.44.20.42] by zeus.carroll.com with ESMTP (8.9.3/0) id TAA17592; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:27:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from damien@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f2C0QYg01320; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:26:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from damien) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:26:34 -0500 From: Damien Tougas To: Mike Meyer Cc: Brad Knowles , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Message-ID: <20010311192632.B368@sprig.tougas.net> References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> <15020.1807.762080.742959@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15020.1807.762080.742959@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 05:15:27PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 05:15:27PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: >Attitude is everything. If your attitude is that you are somehow owed >a place on the project, that's inappropriate. If you ask if there is >something you can do, that's perfectly appropriate. The text you chose >is somewhere between those two positions. I apologize if I came across as if I am owed anything, I definitely do not feel that way at all. I feel I owe more to the FreeBSD community than anyone owes me. >Of course, there *are* projects that don't have as steep a learning >curve as vinum. You're more likely to find a place on those. I was just using vinum for the sake of an example, but I definitely agree with you on this point. >> Now this is something what I would be interested in. I mean, there has >> to be lots of stuff that is easy, a little more mundane for an >> experienced FreeBSD programmer, but perfect for someone who was just >> starting out. For example, I would be perfectly happy writing >> makefiles, tweaking/writing a man page, or adding a tiny new >> feature/switch to an existing utility. > >Some of this is stuff you can just *do*. For instance, if you notice >that some question is showing up on -questions frequently but there >isn't a FAQ entry, write one. For man pages, if you notice a command >or file doesn't have a man page - just write one. For the latter you >need to have a copy of -current running, but you can dual boot -stable >and -current. They can even share swap, ports and /usr/local, though >the last takes some work. Ok. If I decided that I wanted to change/enhance somthing, what would be the proper channels to have it sent to the right person? >Well, the things on the projects page should have project coordinators >listed. That's the person who would assign you small things, and the >one you should contact. Ok, thanks, I will have to start looking at this page a little more in depth and see if I can find something that is both appropriate and interesting. -- Damien Tougas Systems Administrator Carroll-Net, Inc. http://www.carroll.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 16:41: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C322937B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:40:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 85075 invoked by uid 100); 12 Mar 2001 00:40:53 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15020.6933.697021.262703@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:40:53 -0600 To: Damien Tougas Cc: Brad Knowles , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda In-Reply-To: <20010311192632.B368@sprig.tougas.net> References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> <15020.1807.762080.742959@guru.mired.org> <20010311192632.B368@sprig.tougas.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Damien Tougas types: > On Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 05:15:27PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Attitude is everything. If your attitude is that you are somehow owed > >a place on the project, that's inappropriate. If you ask if there is > >something you can do, that's perfectly appropriate. The text you chose > >is somewhere between those two positions. > I apologize if I came across as if I am owed anything, I definitely do > not feel that way at all. I feel I owe more to the FreeBSD community > than anyone owes me. I don't think you came across that way. You were trying to show why you wouldn't just approach Greg, and hence the attitude was one you *wouldn't* actually have. I wanted to show that you could approach Greg - or another project coordinator - in a way that wouldn't have that problem. > >Some of this is stuff you can just *do*. For instance, if you notice > >that some question is showing up on -questions frequently but there > >isn't a FAQ entry, write one. For man pages, if you notice a command > >or file doesn't have a man page - just write one. For the latter you > >need to have a copy of -current running, but you can dual boot -stable > >and -current. They can even share swap, ports and /usr/local, though > >the last takes some work. > Ok. If I decided that I wanted to change/enhance somthing, what would > be the proper channels to have it sent to the right person? A PR is the official channel. Patches to programs, new programs, new ports, additions to the handbook and FAQ - everything goes through that. If you're actually contributing code, start the synopsis with "[PATCH]" - unless it's a port. There are other such comments, but I don't know if they are documented anywhere. Actually, that's a project right there - locate all those, figure out where they should be added, and do it. The response to PR's varies quite a bit from developer and area to developer and area. If you know the responsible developer, you might ask them to look at it if it's been ignored for a while. If you don't, asking for *someone* to look at it on the appropriate mail list might help. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 21:24: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D8E37B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:24:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13926; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:23:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193518.04419a90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:36:51 -0700 To: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: "Victor R. Cardona" In-Reply-To: <20010306230115.B25247@marx.marvic.chum> References: <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:01 PM 3/6/2001, Victor R. Cardona wrote: >Artists and scientists should be compensated for their work. There is no >question about that. Agreed. >The problem is that "intellectual property" laws >have been perverted by large corporations. Brett wants to believe that >there is a balance, but I don't see one. The balance has been disturbed by recent events, and has devolved into a war. Stallman believes that he and his organization, the FSF, can benefit from escalation of that war, and so is doing everything he can to fan the flames. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 21:24:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1B737B71A for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:24:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13952; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:24:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311192602.04418bc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:50:50 -0700 To: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010306224918.A25247@marx.marvic.chum> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <15013.18818.990246.193990@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Continuing this discussion after several days of "heads-down" coding....] At 09:49 PM 3/6/2001, Victor R. Cardona wrote: >I think you need to do a little more research on Richard Stallman. He >does not mind if anyone profits from creative work including software. Not true. In "The GNU Manifesto," Stallman wrote: "What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other than riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, they will come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned." Which is what Stallman advocates: banning commercial software and commercial software companies. The stated purpose of the GPL is to destroy all programming jobs which pay better than what is earned by a starving graduate student or researcher. Levy explains the roots of this vendetta in his book "Hackers." Incensed at the fact that some of his colleagues were leaving the MIT AI Lab to bring the technology developed by its government-funded research to market, he vowed to sabotage their efforts and those of all others like them. What's scary is that so many programmers -- perhaps because they are not savvy about politics, economics, or propaganda -- have been deceived by his efforts and have been successfully recruited in a war against themselves. >I think Levy was much more sympathetic towards Stallman. I don't think >he protrayed Stallman as a vengeful person. Rather, Levy, seemed wistful >when writing about Stallman. Levy did see and portray Stallman as a pathetic figure. At the same time, he also noted that Stallman was extremely vengeful. Levy wrote: "This was RMS's opportunity for revenge.... Stallman had no illusions that his act would significantly improve the world at large. He had come to accept that the domain around the AI Lab had been permanently polluted. He was out to cause as much damage to the culprit as he could." --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 21:25:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8992737B719 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:25:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13930; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:24:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:42:33 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010307144258.G642@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:42 AM 3/7/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Let's say it's (a) and (b). Well, I'd say it differently: (a) I >dislike the unethical monopolisation of intellectual property by major >corporations and content publishers, Intellectual property, by its very nature, consists of a government-granted monopoly. Yes, it is sometimes used unethically. But this does not mean that one should throw the baby out with the bath water. >and (b) I have read many of >Stallman's writings and find much to agree with in them. Stallman's writings use many time-honored tricks of rhetoric and propaganda and are highly deceptive -- most of all about his true aims. >But you'd >phrase these two points as you did above. And that's fair enough, I >suppose: because what you describe to others as your balanced view of >Stallman's allegedly unethical behaviour, looks to me just like spite >and hatred against the man. I have no "spite" or "hatred" against the man. However, he has acted unethically and caused great harm, and it is important that this be reported and that steps be taken to undo the damage. The first step is, of course, knowledge. When people understand the "big picture" -- including Stallman's history and motivations -- it's easier for them to see through the deception. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 22: 6:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA25337B719 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:06:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 3340 invoked by uid 100); 12 Mar 2001 06:06:38 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15020.26478.596410.161510@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:06:38 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 06:42 AM 3/7/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >Let's say it's (a) and (b). Well, I'd say it differently: (a) I > >dislike the unethical monopolisation of intellectual property by major > >corporations and content publishers, > > Intellectual property, by its very nature, consists of a > government-granted monopoly. Yes, it is sometimes used > unethically. But this does not mean that one should throw > the baby out with the bath water. Not throwing out the baby with the bath water is only useful if you know what the baby is. The reason the monopoly exists is to encourage creators to publish, yet still allow them to be compensated for their work. The "baby" isn't copyright per se - it's compensating creators to encourage them to publish. Note that *publishing* is the critical issue here. It's clearly possible to make money creating things without copyright laws, as performers and programmers do so on a regular basis. Some even make a living doing that way. However, those people either don't publish, or don't expect to make money publishing. Recent innovations - cheap PCs and publishers moving to digital media - make granting copyrights cost the public far more than it did when copyright was initially created. That - along with the unethical behavior of publishers - provides a very good reason to reconsider the use of copyright to encourage publication. I have no idea what might replace copyright, and I'm sure that any such change will cause economic dislocation - probably of a serious nature. The existence of computers has been doing that since they became commercially available, including the shameful way publishers are attempting to destroy fair use. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 22:16:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D817037B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:16:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14363; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:15:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:15:47 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15020.26478.596410.161510@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 PM 3/11/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Not throwing out the baby with the bath water is only useful if you >know what the baby is. The "baby" is the concept of copyright. >The reason the monopoly exists is to encourage >creators to publish, yet still allow them to be compensated for their >work. The "baby" isn't copyright per se - it's compensating creators >to encourage them to publish. Nope. Copyright isn't compensation in and of itself. It merely gives the author the right to demand compensation IF people use it. If his work is not appealing or valuable, and no one uses it, he gets nothing. >Note that *publishing* is the critical issue here. It's clearly >possible to make money creating things without copyright laws, as >performers and programmers do so on a regular basis. Some even make a >living doing that way. However, those people either don't publish, or >don't expect to make money publishing. Copyright applies to far more than just publishing. For example, it also applies to public performance for profit, etc. >I have no idea what might replace copyright, and I'm sure that any >such change will cause economic dislocation - probably of a serious >nature. The existence of computers has been doing that since they >became commercially available, including the shameful way publishers >are attempting to destroy fair use. I think that unbridled theft of copyrighted material is shameful too. And, ironically, while users and content distributors fight, the artist is caught in the crossfire. As I said near the beginning of this thread, we need to broker a new peace -- not instigate or escalate a war. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 22:46:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F8C37B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:46:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA96300; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:46:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <3AAC70B5.B533701D@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:46:13 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Damien Tougas Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Damien Tougas wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 08:20:22PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > The problem with these PRs is that they assume you're already an > >experienced programmer, and that you understand the context in which > >the patch is being made. Unfortunately, those two things are > >precisely what programmers new to C almost certainly don't have. > >Even if they're otherwise experienced programmers, simply dumping > >them in the deep end of the ocean and telling them to "sink or swim" > >is likely to end up with most of them sinking fairly rapidly. > > I have to agree with you. I have looked at these many times with the > intent that maybe this would be a good place for me to start, but > never really go very far. There always seemed like there was a very > high barrier to entry. Perhaps a problem with a SCSI device (which I > don't have), which deals with the kernel (which I am not ready for), > and requires that I understand the inner workings of FreeBSD > intimately (which takes a significant amount of time, even for an > experienced programmer). So, the real question is, what exactly would you like us to do? That's not a flippant response btw... seriously, what would you like us to do? You can't just jump right in someplace and do, there has to be a background first. So, in addition to learning C there is an overhead related to learning the system as well. But what did you expect? The rewards of learning the system are pretty good, but the costs are high. That is why there are few unix system hackers, and precious few good ones. There are several rather deep, ugly PR's in the database, but there are plenty that can be addressed with a minimum of investment. Beyond that, suggestions for how we can "lower the bar" for new contributors are welcome. Doug -- Perhaps the greatest damage the American system of education has done to its children is to teach them that their opinions are relevant simply because they are their opinions. Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 22:48:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 32CB237B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 4438 invoked by uid 100); 12 Mar 2001 06:48:33 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:48:33 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 11:06 PM 3/11/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Not throwing out the baby with the bath water is only useful if you > >know what the baby is. > The "baby" is the concept of copyright. If you believe that, then you've already made up your mind, and discussing the issue is pointless. Creators publishing is the baby. Copyright is merely the mechanism to encourage that. > >The reason the monopoly exists is to encourage > >creators to publish, yet still allow them to be compensated for their > >work. The "baby" isn't copyright per se - it's compensating creators > >to encourage them to publish. > Nope. Copyright isn't compensation in and of itself. It merely gives > the author the right to demand compensation IF people use it. If his > work is not appealing or valuable, and no one uses it, he gets > nothing. Right. Copyright *allows* the author to be compensated. It isn't the compensation. Nor does it allow the author to demand compensation for mere use. I use all the books I check out from the library, but neither the author nor the publisher gets more compensation for my use - though publishers are trying to change that. Any mechanism that allows the author to be compensated if they publish will serve the same purpose. If you want, read "make available for the public to use" for "publish"; it amounts to the same thing. If the public can't get to the work, there's no way they can do something that copyright allows the author to demand compensation for. If the public can get to the work - well, one definition of publish is "to disseminate to the public". > >Note that *publishing* is the critical issue here. It's clearly > >possible to make money creating things without copyright laws, as > >performers and programmers do so on a regular basis. Some even make a > >living doing that way. However, those people either don't publish, or > >don't expect to make money publishing. > Copyright applies to far more than just publishing. For example, it > also applies to public performance for profit, etc. This is a bit vague. A public performance itself isn't copyrightable. A recording of it is. As in other cases, copyright encourages the publication of those by allowing the creators to be compensated. Likewise, *making* a public performance is an act covered by copyright. As such, it can be treated as another aspect of publication. Creating the recording is an interesting case, but historically can be either allowed or not by the performers. > >I have no idea what might replace copyright, and I'm sure that any > >such change will cause economic dislocation - probably of a serious > >nature. The existence of computers has been doing that since they > >became commercially available, including the shameful way publishers > >are attempting to destroy fair use. > I think that unbridled theft of copyrighted material is shameful too. So do I. It's clearly illegal and immoral. However, it is *not* causing a major economic dislocation, wherease the publishers mucking with fair use and related rights is threatening an entire profession. > As I said near the beginning of this thread, we need to broker a new > peace -- not instigate or escalate a war. I agree. In particular, I think that the public would be better served by a peace that used some other mechanism to allow artists to be compensated for publishing. Hopefully, artists would be at least as well off as they are now. Those who only publish without creating may well lose out - but the internet has made what they contribute so cheap and easy that anyone can do it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 11 23: 2:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A29A37B718 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14648; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:01:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:01:55 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:48 PM 3/11/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >If you believe that, then you've already made up your mind, and >discussing the issue is pointless. Creators publishing is the >baby. If you try to construe what I said that way you'll miss the point I was trying to make. The notion of conferring rights on creators of content is vitally important, since without it there's no incentive for them to publish other than vanity. >Right. Copyright *allows* the author to be compensated. It isn't the >compensation. Nor does it allow the author to demand compensation for >mere use. Not so. For all uses except for "fair use," it does. >I use all the books I check out from the library, but >neither the author nor the publisher gets more compensation for my use >- though publishers are trying to change that. In Europe, authors do receive compensation from libraries for the use of their work. They even receive a share of the revenues from the copying machine. Since I've written more than 1,000 published articles, I get a small but not insignificant amount of money each year from that pool of money. The Copyright Clearance Center sends me a check each fall. >Any mechanism that allows the author to be compensated if they publish >will serve the same purpose. If you want, read "make available for the >public to use" for "publish"; it amounts to the same thing. If the >public can't get to the work, there's no way they can do something >that copyright allows the author to demand compensation for. You don't have to release your work to the general public. You can license it privately to a small number of individuals if you'd like. >> Copyright applies to far more than just publishing. For example, it >> also applies to public performance for profit, etc. > >This is a bit vague. A public performance itself isn't >copyrightable. Sure it is. And the author of the work that's performed is entitled to compensation too. >> I think that unbridled theft of copyrighted material is shameful too. > >So do I. It's clearly illegal and immoral. However, it is *not* >causing a major economic dislocation, It is, actually. It's impacting the sales of albums and especially those of "singles." >wherease the publishers mucking >with fair use and related rights is threatening an entire profession. Which one? >> As I said near the beginning of this thread, we need to broker a new >> peace -- not instigate or escalate a war. > >I agree. In particular, I think that the public would be better served >by a peace that used some other mechanism to allow artists to be >compensated for publishing. What would you propose? Something like ASCAP? From whom would it collect funds? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 0: 5: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D05C37B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 6092 invoked by uid 100); 12 Mar 2001 08:05:01 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15020.33581.202339.895997@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:05:01 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 11:48 PM 3/11/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >If you believe that, then you've already made up your mind, and > >discussing the issue is pointless. Creators publishing is the > >baby. > If you try to construe what I said that way you'll miss the point I > was trying to make. The notion of conferring rights on creators of > content is vitally important, since without it there's no incentive > for them to publish other than vanity. Correct. My point is that the conferred rights do *not* have to be the copyright system. > >Right. Copyright *allows* the author to be compensated. It isn't the > >compensation. Nor does it allow the author to demand compensation for > >mere use. > Not so. For all uses except for "fair use," it does. Actually, the things copyright holders have the right to demand compensation for are listed in the US copyright code, chapter 1, section 106. "Fair use" is a list of exceptions those rights. They don't have the right to demand compensation for anything not listed in that section, whether it's fair use or not. > >Any mechanism that allows the author to be compensated if they publish > >will serve the same purpose. If you want, read "make available for the > >public to use" for "publish"; it amounts to the same thing. If the > >public can't get to the work, there's no way they can do something > >that copyright allows the author to demand compensation for. > You don't have to release your work to the general public. You can > license it privately to a small number of individuals if you'd like. In which case it doesn't need to have a copyright attached at all; the license is more than sufficient. In fact, that's one of the methods programmers use to earn money without needing copyright protection. But the point of copyright is to encourage the authors to release their work to the general public, not to a small set of licensees. > >> Copyright applies to far more than just publishing. For example, it > >> also applies to public performance for profit, etc. > >This is a bit vague. A public performance itself isn't > >copyrightable. > Sure it is. And the author of the work that's performed is entitled > to compensation too. For something to be copyrightable, it must be fixed (Chapter 1, Section 102, paragraph a of the US Copyright code). A performance isn't fixed, and hence not copyrightable. Recordings of it are fixed, and hence copyrightable. I already dealt with the authors of performed works being entitled to compensation. > >> I think that unbridled theft of copyrighted material is shameful too. > >So do I. It's clearly illegal and immoral. However, it is *not* > >causing a major economic dislocation, > It is, actually. It's impacting the sales of albums and especially > those of "singles." "Impacting sales" is a *long* way from "causing a major economic dislocation". Get back to me record companies start folding because of it. > >wherease the publishers mucking > >with fair use and related rights is threatening an entire profession. > Which one? Librarians. I posted a URL to the librarians take on this already. > >> As I said near the beginning of this thread, we need to broker a new > >> peace -- not instigate or escalate a war. > >I agree. In particular, I think that the public would be better served > >by a peace that used some other mechanism to allow artists to be > >compensated for publishing. > What would you propose? Something like ASCAP? From whom would it collect > funds? I don't really have a good idea. Of course, it's clear from the state of the world that the current system isn't a good idea, either. Stallman proposed a tax system at one point, but it's probably not an improvement. There have been experiments with voluntary contributions, but I don't think those have worked very well. Possibly the concept of copyright can be made to work, but I suspect it will take a nearly complete reworking. The real goal is to fix things so that the publishers attempts to enforce copyright technologically doesn't take away the publics fair use rights or the rights of creators who don't happen to be major publishers. Fair use allows free copying for a small set of purposes, and creators have the right to copy anything they please. If you have the ability to do both of those things, you pretty much have the ability to do make copies as you please. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 2:39:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C07337B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:39:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f2CAd0r23298 ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:39:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA63279 ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:38:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:38:59 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010312113859.G60399@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Mike Meyer , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 12:01:55AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In Europe, authors do receive compensation from libraries for the > use of their work. They even receive a share of the revenues from > the copying machine. Since I've written more than 1,000 published > articles, I get a small but not insignificant amount of money each > year from that pool of money. The Copyright Clearance Center sends > me a check each fall. I have been in Europe for a few months now. I do not need to pay any copyright fee for photocopying articles. Nobody keeps tracks of which articles I photocopy. If authors do indeed get compensated by the libraries I use, it is certainly not based on how often they individually get photocopied. It could well be that a blank fee is charged simply to "compensate" for possible copyright violations, just as recordable media, CD writers, etc, are being taxed now; but that simply doesn't keep track of what is actually being copied. Moreover, when I write something I'm pretty happy for others to read it, and most of my earlier writings are retrievable for free from http://arxiv.org and often from the journal's own web pages. I, likewise, download and often print huge quantities of writings by others at the above sites. It is true that I don't fall in the same category as you -- I get paid for the research, by my employers, not for the writing. But my experience with creative people is that they're more concerned that they be *read* than that every possible reader compensate them for it. It is only the really big names, who already command a large market, who tend to argue against things like online reproduction. People like that (a recent example was Harlan Ellison) are rich anyway. In his long rant (recent slashdot story), Ellison claims that he's "also" arguing for various authors who were allegedly pirated wholesale and died poor: but unless there was a mechanism for millions of people to sample creative works for free (libraries, used books, and now the online world), authors/musicians would simply not become well known unless their publishing/recording companies chose to spend money marketing them. There is plenty of evidence that Napster users, for instance, actually bought a lot of music which they wouldn't have bought otherwise. The big publishing companies seem to be blind to this obvious situation. Returning to the patent question, here's an interesting article which someone pointed me to today. It's not relevant to software as such; even so, Brett, no doubt, will dismiss the author as being another Stallman stooge. http://www.quebecoislibre.org/000902-3.htm - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 3:20:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F340F37B719; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 03:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f2CB5gw05282; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:05:42 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:05:41 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Damien Tougas Cc: Brad Knowles , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Message-ID: <20010312110541.A5256@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net>; from damien@carroll.com on Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 05:56:31PM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [cc'ing Poul ] On Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 05:56:31PM -0500, Damien Tougas wrote: > Again, I agree with you. I have thought of this before; what am I to > do, e-mail Greg Lehey, and tell him that I want to learn C, and that I > think cutting my teeth on Vinum would be a good start?=20 Talk to Poul, phk@freebsd.org. He occasionally posts lists of what he considers to be "junior hacker" tasks (or search the -hackers, -stable, -current, and -arch mailing lists for that phrase). N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjqsrYUACgkQk6gHZCw343WYnACfYQFvJ+ttUz3SgRIA6xAwTLcc BYUAmwaTLUeATk1jdHNtMb5N3WSbo1QQ =FiMO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 3:34:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918DF37B73F for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 03:34:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA18777 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:34:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:34:44 -0500 (EST) From: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSDi's replies to why BSDi sucks... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was about to go to bed early this morning when one billh (Bill Huey) from BSDi comes waltzing in. And right after someone on the FreeBSD project just happened to get me steamed about his comments towards FreeBSD commiters. So I woke up enough to beat him with a cluebat about wtf is up with BSDi. Very litte is quoted mostly paraphrased. What is quoted is quoted. I found out pretty much nothing I want to know. This biggest thing's I found out were the follwing: o FreeBSD has no management. By FreeBSD I mean the OSD side. None. Zip. Zero. He said it was implied Jordan was supposed to take the reigns for that he but never did. And so they are not managed because no one is stepping up to the plate from the OSD side. o There is alot of friction between the BSD/OS side and the OSD people. Mainly because of stupid things the OSD wont accept and that should never have happened. o I asked him why the management of BSDi is NOT funding or supporting the the OSD people or FreeBSD? His reply was as noted in point one, no one has stepped up to manage the OSD people. And until someone does.. He also noted like I said Jordan was supposed to manage the OSD side not just be a "release engineer". But either Jordan didnt quite understand that or there was miscommunication when WC was purchased. o The reason they were waiting on someone from the OSD side to step up and manage the OSD side was because they thought it would be viewed as a threat if the BSD/OS side managed OSD. He said the BSD/OS side has funding and similiar problems but that *they* have a manager to GET them these things. "Stuff can happen if folks step up to the role". o He is claiming to talk to the FreeBSD populous which I gather is why he was on IRC to "clear some of the air and confusion about BSDi". Sounds like PR to me. If things are looking bad PR over it. o When I asked him isn't the BSDi side *curious why* almost all of your OSD people have *quit*? I told him because of no support and no funding. He is aware of the lack of funding and support. He said "we'll have to pressure some folks lightly and see what happens". Sounds REAL convining. Dont try so hard! o I also asked him why FreeBSD is not being pushed. I mean promoted and really put out there. He said see point one again. Lack of OSD management. o So I said Nothing gets fixed till someone from the OSD side steps up and *manages* the OSD people? "Yeah, that's the preferred solution, yes" "but it's beginning to look like it's going to have to come from the commercial systems group. which wasn't supposed to happen since we don't know many of the FreeBSD folks." o He also acknowledged alot of problems in upper management. But said that those that could do anything are still tired from the AT&T lawsuit. That leaves like what 2 or 3 people from the CSRG that are *at* BSDi? So basically I guess he is saying they are to tired to give a crap as BSDi gows down the drain. Cant be bothered to fix the problems. I don't know how much of the above is accurate he seems to be on the left. And the OSD folks on the right. But as many people have noticed. FreeBSD is bringing in a LARGE chunk of change for BSDi and they are just pissing away the developers and resources for FreeBSD. So if management is really the problem on the OSD side why has this not been resolved? If it isn't true tell me so I can rebut that fact to him. I just want to try and get things fixed. Im pretty sure it had very little to do with management of the OSD people because FreeBSD never had people quitting in droves when it was WC in the captains chair. *grumble* ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (316) 326-3862 | FreeBSD Consultant, FreeBSD Geek Work: scanner@jurai.net | Open Systems Inc., Wellington, Kansas Home: scanner@deceptively.shady.org | http://open-systems.net ============================================================================= WINDOWS: "Where do you want to go today?" LINUX: "Where do you want to go tommorow?" BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" ============================================================================= irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 4:56:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zeus.carroll.com (zeus.carroll.com [199.224.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0427D37B718; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 04:56:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from damien@sprig.tougas.net) Received: from sprig.tougas.net [216.44.20.42] by zeus.carroll.com with ESMTP (8.9.3/0) id HAA55906; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from damien@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f2CCsxZ65526; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:54:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from damien) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:54:59 -0500 From: Damien Tougas To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Message-ID: <20010312075458.B1782@sprig.tougas.net> References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> <3AAC70B5.B533701D@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AAC70B5.B533701D@FreeBSD.org>; from DougB@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 10:46:13PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 10:46:13PM -0800, Doug Barton wrote: > So, the real question is, what exactly would you like us to do? That's not >a flippant response btw... seriously, what would you like us to do? You >can't just jump right in someplace and do, there has to be a background >first. So, in addition to learning C there is an overhead related to >learning the system as well. But what did you expect? The rewards of >learning the system are pretty good, but the costs are high. That is why >there are few unix system hackers, and precious few good ones. I am not saying you have to do anything, or that the complexity of the system is anyones fault. From my engineering background, I can say that there are many big, complex projects that are done where all kinds of skill levels are involved. The senior engineers who have all of the experience assign the junior engineers small tasks which still have to be done, but at the same time help to familiarize them them with the system and design process. I am merely looking to see if there are any of those types of tasks that might be floating around somewhere. -- Damien Tougas Systems Administrator Carroll-Net, Inc. http://www.carroll.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 5:13:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8DB37B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:13:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anon@somewhere.net) Received: from somewhere.net (adsl-216-103-90-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [216.103.90.137]) by mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20629; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:08:56 -0600 (CST) From: anon@somewhere.net Message-Id: <200103121308.HAA20629@mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net> To: mwm@mired.org Cc: brett@lariat.org, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, vcardona@home.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:10:00 -0000 In-Reply-To: <15020.33581.202339.895997@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Please forgive the anonymous post, but I am currently doing some work in the music industry, which has been an eye-opening and somewhat disturbing experience.] Mike Meyer wrote: > Brett Glass types: > > > At 11:48 PM 3/11/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >> I think that unbridled theft of copyrighted material is shameful too. > > >So do I. It's clearly illegal and immoral. However, it is *not* > > >causing a major economic dislocation, > > It is, actually. It's impacting the sales of albums and especially > > those of "singles." > > "Impacting sales" is a *long* way from "causing a major economic dislocation". > Get back to me record companies start folding because of it. And if they do fold, so what? 100 years ago the music industry did not exist. There is no legal, moral, or economic mandate that it must still exist 100 years (or even 10 years) from now. Industries come and go all the time. They are born when a new need arises, and they die when that need fades away. The music industry was born around the turn of the century, when it first became possible to create recordings. The problem was that it was expensive to create, duplicate, store and distribute those recordings. So companies were formed to provide those services, for a fee. Over time, those companies consolidated into a proper industry, and eventually completely controlled the distribution channels. With control came greed. Around 50-60 years ago, they discovered mass marketing, and began to invent stars as a means of boosting their income. And over the years, they have resorted to a variety of tactics which have alienated both the creators and consumers of their products. For example, their creative bookkeeping actually makes it possible for an artist to release a hit album that sells millions and still end up owing the label money. They can do this with impunity, because of their absolute control. Then came multimedia PCs and the Internet. Over a period of just a few years, the value of and need for their services dropped to almost nothing. Anyone in the world can record, reproduce, and distribute music, cheaply and easily. The very reason for the existence of the industry has vanished. The only function of value they have remaining is their marketing ability, and even that is in jeopardy. They suddenly find themselves looking extinction in the face. So yes, rampant piracy is wrong. But that's just the fireball from the initial asteroid impact. What's coming along right behind it is a major shift in the climate which may well make it impossible for the dinosaurs to survive (at least in their current form). And if they don't make it, good riddance. We'll all be better off without them. (Sorry about the rant, but I am sick of the harm the industry is causing to society as a whole in its desperate attempts to not become extinct like a good little dinosaur.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 6:34:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F4B37B718; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:34:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f2CEXZr49280 ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:33:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA72159 ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:33:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:33:18 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Damien Tougas Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Message-ID: <20010312153318.L60399@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Damien Tougas , Doug Barton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010311175629.A368@sprig.tougas.net> <3AAC70B5.B533701D@FreeBSD.org> <20010312075458.B1782@sprig.tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010312075458.B1782@sprig.tougas.net>; from damien@carroll.com on Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 07:54:59AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Damien Tougas said on Mar 12, 2001 at 07:54:59: > > I am not saying you have to do anything, or that the complexity of the > system is anyones fault. From my engineering background, I can say > that there are many big, complex projects that are done where all > kinds of skill levels are involved. The senior engineers who have all > of the experience assign the junior engineers small tasks which still > have to be done, but at the same time help to familiarize them them > with the system and design process. I am merely looking to see if > there are any of those types of tasks that might be floating around > somewhere. Well, even apart from the PRs, which are a bit hard to dig through (and, as you say, you may not have the relevant equipment), there must be plenty of unreported quirks in the programs you use which annoy you, or could be improved, or are just plain bugs. How about starting on those? I'm no hacker, and don't really plan to become one. The only C code I've written is some simulation stuff which, code-wise, was probably pretty atrocious (though it worked). But on occasion I've poked through source code to see whether I could fix something that was annoying me, or add something I wanted. Sometimes I actually succeeded. Once I even submitted a patch (for kdelibs 2), which got accepted by the FreeBSD port maintainer, but doesn't seem to have made it to KDE proper. (Apparently the patch didn't work for everyone, though it worked for me. The patch is still there in the FreeBSD port. And I don't even really know C++.) Right now I'm getting slightly annoyed by a few small things in KDE 2.1 and am thinking of looking at the source code again. If I had ambitions of increasing my skill levels, I certainly would be looking at a lot of such source code... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 7: 5:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213A937B726 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA24551; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:02:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAaMaW2V; Mon Mar 12 08:02:03 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16021; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:05:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103121505.IAA16021@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDi's replies to why BSDi sucks... To: scanner@jurai.net Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:05:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "scanner@jurai.net" at Mar 12, 2001 06:34:44 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From the context and your report of his comments, I have to say that Bill doesn't "get it". It seems that, in demanding a "manager", he's trying to apply the tool he knows to a situation where the tool isn't needed. Apparently, he wants a leverage point that will grant control to the wielder. That's a very strange thing for him to want, from a FreBSD perspective, but a natural one to want, from a business perspective. The problem is that he wants to control a volunteer effort in order to build what he thinks should be built, instead of what they will build out of interest. This is the same mistake Mozilla made, and the same mistake Sun has made with Java (and then componeded it with a license which makes it practically useless; the only thing it has going for it is the old MIS manager's dream of being able to get rid of all the tiresome programmers -- a dream which will never bear fruit -- so that these days, if you can spell "Java", you can get a realtively high paying position). The statement "There is alot of friction between the BSD/OS side and the OSD people. Mainly because of stupid things the OSD wont accept and that should never have happened." is very telling. If there were a "manager" (what he really seems to want is a person who is to FreeBSD what Linus is to Linux), there would be someone that they could pressure to get FreeBSD to do what they want, such as accepting changes from BSDI "for their own good". I think that it's generally understood that the only person who could credibly take on this role would be Kirk McKusick. I think he also misses the point, and protrays one of the greatest strengths of FreeBSD's as a weakness: people work on what they feel needs to be worked on, and "owning" several core team members and/or committers doesn't give you carte blanche write access to the tree. They need to learn from other commercial organizations which have used FreeBSD in their own products -- they need to learn from Walnut Creek CDROM, however much of that is left. Sure, FreeBSD has poor productization, and while easy, the install doesn't have that polished look of Windows (I think that maybe BSDI had hoped that FreeBSD would become Windows 2000 desktop to BSDI's Windows 2000 server). The FreeBSD organization also has limits to the complexity it can handle. Big projects don't get done without a lot of buy-in from the group, and complex projects can't be done by large groups of hobbiests -- most of the complex things which have happened in FreeBSD have had commercial funding of a small team actually doing the work. There's truth to the old addage that begin "too many cooks...". Another interesting thing is that complexity is exactly where large companies are attacking their Open Source competition. There are many new standards that have been pushed through the IETF at significantly high complexity levels, compared to what went before them. Much of that complexity is, IMO, gratuitous and aimed squarely at being too difficult for an Open Source project to implement correctly. Microsoft and Novell are old hands at this game, with their obscure wire protocols for file sharing: Microsoft intentionally, and Novell by way of including all of their historical APIs in their client developement kits. Novell has actually been hoist on its own petard by doing this, since programmers will use the oldest APIs they can to get the job done, since they want to capture the largest potential customer share from the installed Novell base. In turn, Novell servers have to support all the historical APIs to keep such programs running against new servers. Netscape actually tried its hand at the complexity game, to try and control the LDAP market. I actually gave very bad odds of the OpenLDAP project ever implementing LDAPv3 because of this, given their initial license, and given what I knew about the FreeBSD and Linux capabilities in this area. I warned Kurt Zelinga about this when he started, and actually distanced myself from the project because of this. Happily, I've been surprised, and Kurt's style is closer to the Apache/XFree model, which doesn't have the drawing power of the FreeBSD model, but which likewise attracts only highly skilled and self-disciplined people. Put simply, FreeBSD and Linux have a lot of activity, and OpenLDAP and Apache have a lot of action. Realize also, that a single commercial employee working with the project as part of their work can have much more impact, and therefore control, than with FreeBSD or Linux (unless you buy Linus, as Transmeta did, and even then, you don't get as much control as you thought you were buying). I think that's what BSDI thought they were getting when they bought Walnut Creek CDROM; maybe now they are having some "buyer's remorse" about not getting what they thought they were buying. That's really a silly and short-sighted view, I think. It ignores what they ended up getting, out of pique for not getting what they thought they were paying to obtain, and so they are squandering what value is there out of self pity for what isn't. Obviously, Bill's just one guy; his views may not be all that representative of the views of BSDI at large, and so this trieste might just be about Bill's understanding. On the other hand, if BSDI is really losing FreeBSD folks from their ranks, it's probably a view which is more than just one person deep. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 7:42:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF38137B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:42:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Andrew.Lawson@motorola.com) Received: [from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by motgate.mot.com (motgate 2.1) with ESMTP id IAA14893 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:42:44 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from zuk28exb01.ecid.cig.mot.com (zuk28exb01.ecid.cig.mot.com [175.12.130.200]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id IAA09183 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:37:57 -0700 (MST)] Received: by zuk28exb01.ecid.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) id ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:42:42 -0000 Message-ID: <09C1525B7197D3118A4D0008C7E6EEE0D3190C@zuk28exm05.ecid.cig.mot.com> From: Lawson Andrew-ALAWSON1 To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Looking for Yoda and some examples of the use of the force... Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:42:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All I've been following the thread on beginners contributions. I'm in much the same situation as others, I have commercial programming experience with Delphi (sorry) and I speak basic C/C++ and Lisp. I'd love to get involved with the project but as has been said there is a major problem with the pr list in that each simple change requires knowledge of a much larger part of the system, essentially we need to understand the system much more than any language. To this end can I make a proposal. How about (should people have the time and energy to do so) whenever a committer writes a particularly illuminating patch, they could also write an explanatory paragraph and comment the code thickly so that we can understand what the code does and why, e.g, a sort of before and after type thing. A small library of such examples would help get some of us past the fear factor of fiddling with the code. On a related note, are there any recommendations as to well written, fairly self contained and well-commented bits of code to learn from, something I could sit down and understand in an evening :) p.s. If any pseudo-yodas need a slave for code-mangling or other grungy work I'd be interested. regards Andrew ----------------------- Andrew Lawson andrew.lawson@mot.com a.d.lawson@ntlworld.com Configuration Control Motorola ECID Groundwell, Swindon, Uk ----------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 8:15:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [209.222.117.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E585D37B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.11.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f2BK6LV23277 for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:06:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:06:21 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One of the common misconceptions I've seen from non-programmers is that "knowing" a language is the same as knowing how to program. Its exactly backwards. Once you know how to program, are comfortable with algorithms, problem solving, breaking projects down to their constituant parts, know about basic efficiencies, know a little about things like queing theory etc etc, you are on your way. Knowing how to solve a problem is the first step, picking what tools to use (ie what language to use) to implement the solution is almost incidental. You pick the language that will allow you to accomplish the task most easily or if different criteria are in play then you pick the tool that meets those criteria. When you know how to program and you know the syntax for one language, learning how to use others is no big deal. You may not work as fast in PL/I as you do in C, but if you know C, (or pascal or even cobol) and have a good grounding in computer science then you can program in PL/I. You may do it with the manual open continuously the first few times but you can do it. That said, and as has been mentioned, the first language you learn is more about developing good habits as it is anything else. Some languages enforce good habits (or at least what is fashionable at the time) while others let you do what you want. C, C++, perl, are not great first languages from that perspective while Pascal is actually pretty good if perhaps a bit old school at this point. Learning the 10th language is pretty meaningless. When I started, the first languages I learned were assembler type languages for the Motorola 6800 and the IBM 360, and pascal. While I think pascal and maybe python now days would make a good first language, everyone should do a bit with assembler just so they understand the underlying nature of what they are doing with the higher level languages. People who want to be able to say they know umpteen languages are kind of missing the point imo. Someone who has a solid lock on theory and is comfortable with a couple of languages is far more valuable then someone who has done something in 30 languages (and thus claims they "know" each one) but has little clue about how problems are solved. Concentrait on the computer science. The programming languages take care of themselves. ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 8:34: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DFA2E37B71A for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:34:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 71238 invoked by uid 100); 12 Mar 2001 16:34:02 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15020.64121.982605.812786@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:34:01 -0600 To: Darren Henderson Cc: Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Henderson types: > When you know how to program and you know the syntax for one language, > learning how to use others is no big deal. You may not work as fast in > PL/I as you do in C, but if you know C, (or pascal or even cobol) and have > a good grounding in computer science then you can program in PL/I. You may > do it with the manual open continuously the first few times but you can do > it. > > Concentrait on the computer science. The programming languages take care > of themselves. I'd agree - but would like to post an addendum. All the Darren named are pretty much drawn from the same stock - except for Perl, anyway. One of my most valuable early experiences was taking a programming languages course that covered a number of languages languages. At the time, PL/I, FORTRAN, LISP, APL, and SNOBOL. Since they are - as Darren says - just tools, each lends itself to a slightly different way of thinking about the problem. Learning those ways of thinking about problems was an important step in learning how to solve problems in general. Later, I'd find that an idiom in one language that made solving some problem easy would translate into another language, making it easy to solve a similar subproblem. > People who want to be able to say they know umpteen languages are kind of > missing the point imo. Someone who has a solid lock on theory and is > comfortable with a couple of languages is far more valuable then someone > who has done something in 30 languages (and thus claims they "know" each > one) but has little clue about how problems are solved. While there is a natural tendency to do this, I claim the driving force is HR offices that use simple keyword filters rather than looking for some indication of ability. Listing 30 languages on the resume makes it more likely you'll get past them, and get your resume seen by someone who will can evaluate your real skills. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 9:18:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.free.fr (smtp1.free.fr [212.27.32.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCA137B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:18:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gca1@free.fr) Received: from or.or.com (grenoble-44-1.dial.proxad.net [213.228.44.1]) by smtp1.free.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id SAA32331; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:18:30 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.free.fr: Host grenoble-44-1.dial.proxad.net [213.228.44.1] claimed to be or.or.com Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:21:17 +0100 (CET) From: gca1 X-Sender: gca1@or.or.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org Subject: Patent and software ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I have just read a article on patent in a linux periodical. In USA, is it possible to take out a patent for a software or an idea ? if a mere idea can be patented, then companies can patent all the unimaginable ideas and wait until have been developped by anyone else to have a operating monopoly or to cash rights. Is that true ? What are organizations which grant patent ? thank you for your help. ANTONINO Christian. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 9:28:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bubble.via-net-works.ie (bubble.via-net-works.ie [212.17.32.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0A037B71B for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:28:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: from spinach.dialups.via-net-works.ie ([212.17.34.223] helo=cooperationireland.org) by bubble.via-net-works.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #2) id 14cW21-0003wk-00; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:22:53 +0000 Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f2CHQMQ35857; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:26:22 GMT (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010312172808.0081ea50@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:28:08 +0000 To: Darren Henderson From: Mike Doyle Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 15:06 11/03/01 -0500, Darren Henderson wrote: > >One of the common misconceptions I've seen from non-programmers is that >"knowing" a language is the same as knowing how to program. Its exactly >backwards. > >Once you know how to program, are comfortable with algorithms, problem >solving, breaking projects down to their constituant parts, know about >basic efficiencies, know a little about things like queing theory etc etc, >you are on your way. I just wanted to say that this is possibly the wisest thing said in the whole thread. When I learned programming as part of a CS Degree we had to come up with a type of formalised pseudocode before starting to program in any "implementation language" as our instructor referred to them. By the time I was a graduate student and taking the tutorials on that course, it was even more formalised (using formal derivation methods). I still think this was a great teaching tool - and while few people I know would write a formal specification in predicate logic for an entire system, the discipline of knowing the formalised pre- and post- conditions for code fragments makes it much saner designing functions and/or objects. What language you implement your code in is irrelevant. Any computable program can be proven to be implementable in a language with 3 instructions/functionally equivalent to a Turing machine. Of course, no-one would ever want to re-read your code... That's what high level languages are FOR... and some are better suited to certain tasks than others. At the moment, far removed from the university environment, I use mostly PERL, PHP, MS VBA (under protest), SQL embedded into all the above, and HTML (if you could call it a language). In college I learned and/or taught C, C++, Pascal, Fortran, Lisp the only one that stands out there is Lisp cause it's functional and not procedural. Once you know one language you pretty much know them all especially if it comes with a good, on-line HTML documentation set. <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 9:43:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FA837B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:42:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f2CHgvr74046 ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:42:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA79981 ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:42:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:42:57 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: gca1 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Patent and software ... Message-ID: <20010312184257.E73862@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: gca1 , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from gca1@free.fr on Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 06:21:17PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gca1 said on Mar 12, 2001 at 18:21:17: > Hello, > > I have just read a article on patent in a linux periodical. > > In USA, is it possible to take out a patent for a software or an idea ? > > if a mere idea can be patented, then companies can patent all the > unimaginable ideas and wait until have been developped by anyone else to > have a operating monopoly or to cash rights. > > Is that true ? http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/patents.html Patents can be overturned based on proof of "prior art" so it's not quite as bad as you say. But yes, it is pretty bad... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 10:45: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E5737B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:44:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f2CIipw18488; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:44:52 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103121844.f2CIipw18488@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:44:50 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BSDi's replies to why BSDi sucks... Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Mar 2001, at 6:34, scanner@jurai.net wrote: > o When I asked him isn't the BSDi side *curious why* almost all of your > OSD people have *quit*? I told him because of no support and no funding. > He is aware of the lack of funding and support. He said "we'll have to > pressure some folks lightly and see what happens". Sounds REAL > convining. Dont try so hard! Almost all? I spent some time there before FreeBSDBSDCon 1999 and again before BSDCon 2000. I didn't notice a HUGE change in personal. Who are these "almost all of your OSD people" who have quit? I know Jim and Len left. Who else? -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 11:51:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939A137B72E for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:51:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f2CJpQU00300; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:51:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:51:26 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: gca1 Cc: Subject: Re: Patent and software ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010312144118.B20517-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hello, Hi, Christian. > In USA, is it possible to take out a patent for a software or an idea? Yes. > if a mere idea can be patented, then companies can patent all the > unimaginable ideas and wait until have been developped by anyone else to > have a operating monopoly or to cash rights. The subject matter sought to be patented must be a "useful" process, machine, manufacture or composition of matter, i.e., it must have a practical application. The purpose of this requirement is to limit patent protection to inventions that possess a certain level of "real world" value, as opposed to subject matter that represents nothing more than an idea or concept, or is simply a starting point for future investigation --http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/hearings/software/analysis/files/guides.wp Algorithms have been patented (see http://www.faqs.org/faqs/compression-faq/part1/section-7.html for examples). > What are organizations which grant patent ? The United States Patent and Trademark Office. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 12:43: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4557637B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:43:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2CKgSA86080; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:42:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:42:10 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Damien Tougas Subject: RE: Looking for Yoda Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-Mar-01 Damien Tougas wrote: > Are there any mentors out there? Are there other approaches out there > that people have taken that they have found successful? There might be, but I have one suggestion for you: Find someone geographically close by that you can meet with face to face. Trying to teach/mentor over IRC or e-mail is just too painful IMO. Face to face contact is much more efficient and results in a lot less misunderstandings, etc. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 15: 5:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2908237B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:05:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f2CN54w21275; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:05:05 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103122305.f2CN54w21275@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Darren Henderson Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:05:03 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Mar 2001, at 15:06, Darren Henderson wrote: > One of the common misconceptions I've seen from non-programmers is that > "knowing" a language is the same as knowing how to program. Its exactly > backwards. And very common amongst employers. I have encountered only one that was looking for knowledge and theory, not specific skills. They wanted people who knew object based programming. They when provided training in the langagues they were using. > When you know how to program and you know the syntax for one language, > learning how to use others is no big deal. You may not work as fast in > PL/I as you do in C, but if you know C, (or pascal or even cobol) and have > a good grounding in computer science then you can program in PL/I. You may > do it with the manual open continuously the first few times but you can do > it. Oh I wish more people knew this! Umm, I mean employers. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 15:16:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-59.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD6937B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:16:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E211966B6C; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:16:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:16:19 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDi's replies to why BSDi sucks... Message-ID: <20010312151619.A94390@mollari.cthul.hu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from scanner@jurai.net on Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 06:34:44AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 06:34:44AM -0500, scanner@jurai.net wrote: >=20 > I was about to go to bed early this morning when one billh (Bill > Huey) from BSDi comes waltzing in. And right after someone on the FreeBSD= =20 > project just happened to get me steamed about his comments towards FreeBSD > commiters. So I woke up enough to beat him with a cluebat about wtf is up= =20 > with BSDi. Very litte is quoted mostly paraphrased. What is quoted is > quoted. Well, some background you might be missing is that Bill Huey it a know-it-all little [--redacted--] who has been waltzing onto IRC and telling BSDI employees what he thinks is wrong with the management of the company and the OSD division since quite a while *before* he ever managed to get himself employeed as an engineer by the BSD/OS division (the OSD division wouldn't touch him). Kris --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6rVjDWry0BWjoQKURArRTAJ9xCyeP0pCLhz2IeC396L7aCZzj+wCfSztk wqJptBI5xBSMfwWg4IV4C48= =FvGd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 15:30:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E9B37B71A for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f2CNUHj05147; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:30:17 -0800 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:30:17 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Dan Langille Cc: Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Message-ID: <20010312153017.A2824@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <200103122305.f2CN54w21275@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200103122305.f2CN54w21275@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:05:03PM +1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:05:03PM +1300, Dan Langille wrote: > On 11 Mar 2001, at 15:06, Darren Henderson wrote: > > When you know how to program and you know the syntax for one language, > > learning how to use others is no big deal. You may not work as fast in > > PL/I as you do in C, but if you know C, (or pascal or even cobol) and h= ave > > a good grounding in computer science then you can program in PL/I. You = may > > do it with the manual open continuously the first few times but you can= do > > it. >=20 > Oh I wish more people knew this! Umm, I mean employers. Of course, one can take this too far. For instance having worked with a number of scientists who learned to program in APL or FORTRAN, I can safely say that if I were hiring and someone's only significant programming experience was in one or both of those that resume would hit the round file about as fast as the one from the guy who's only work experience was flipping burgers. Heck, the guy who'd only flipped burgers at least wouldn't be a FORTRAN or APL programmer. ;-) Always remember, you can write FORTRAN in *any* language! -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6rVwHXY6L6fI4GtQRAk5oAKDcZ+2b73R7n1Gs4+6vewiC7vjetACeO+sm dc1LSJzYMrOnes+8GE4grag= =kJAN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 15:57:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5169837B71B for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:57:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010312235720.GKBZ2254.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:57:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:57:31 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My nephew spends just about every waking moment (other than school) in front of the computer playing games. So this Christmas I thought I'd expand his horizons by buying him a new Imac with SuSE Linux preinstalled by me. I showed him how to use the man pages and other documentation, and tried to explain to him why such a computer might be more interesting than a Windoze box. Well, he was pretty much flabbergasted and confused by this new computer (try accomplishing that with a teenager). He had no idea what to do with it, despite my attempts to explain how cool it might be to do some hacking and programming on it. To that end I showed him Python, and how easy it was to make programs. The computer has just sat unused for weeks. Did I screw up? Are children so used to being spoon-fed information that they no longer have the interest in independent investigation? This is a bright kid who claimed to have an interest in computers. Oh, well thanks for listening to my rant. Maybe it will just take some time. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 16:25:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5284637B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:25:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19488; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:53:30 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:53:30 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Rob Subject: RE: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than play Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-Mar-01 Rob wrote: > The computer has just sat unused for weeks. > > Did I screw up? Are children so used to being spoon-fed information > that they no longer have > the interest in independent investigation? This is a bright kid who > claimed to have an > interest in computers. > > Oh, well thanks for listening to my rant. Maybe it will just take some > time. Rob. Games are fun, that's why people play them. Coding _can_ be fun, but when you are near the limit of your abilities (which is all the time when you start) it is frustrating as hell. And, well, teenagers are frustrated a lot of the time anyway :) You could just install Python for Windows and see if he plays with that, but I don't think you can force someone to program :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 16:54:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-59.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AAD37B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:54:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 28DD766B6C; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:54:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:54:29 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than play Message-ID: <20010312165428.A99268@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J/dobhs11T7y2rNN" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:53:30AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:53:30AM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: >=20 > On 12-Mar-01 Rob wrote: > > The computer has just sat unused for weeks. > > =20 > > Did I screw up? Are children so used to being spoon-fed information > > that they no longer have > > the interest in independent investigation? This is a bright kid who > > claimed to have an=20 > > interest in computers. =20 > > =20 > > Oh, well thanks for listening to my rant. Maybe it will just take some > > time. Rob. >=20 > You could just install Python for Windows and see if he plays with that, = but I don't > think you can force someone to program :) Well, I got started programming *really* young, but I'm told I got started because I was intrigued by what my dad was doing with the computer, and wanted to learn how. Naturally, it wasn't long before I was better at it than he was, but by that point I was hooked for life :-) The competitive instinct is pretty strong in most children: start tinkering with it yourself and try and show him what you're doing, and you might find that he's tempted to outdo his old man :-) Kris --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6rW/EWry0BWjoQKURAq5iAKCH0DsyOxGbxJmxLqg7iWjd8Po9AgCg802j 04NkL8jhOlMp81rEtXyqBCo= =WsfZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 17:21:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4693F37B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:21:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA35662; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:21:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:21:38 -0500 (EST) From: To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDi's replies to why BSDi sucks... In-Reply-To: <20010312151619.A94390@mollari.cthul.hu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Well, some background you might be missing is that Bill Huey it a > know-it-all little [--redacted--] who has been waltzing onto IRC and > telling BSDI employees what he thinks is wrong with the management of > the company and the OSD division since quite a while *before* he ever > managed to get himself employeed as an engineer by the BSD/OS division > (the OSD division wouldn't touch him). Perhaps so. Even if he is a world class dork. There has to be some truth to his remarks. And even though others have said he does not speak for BSDi, it's hard to discount what he says since he works there AND he is the only one talking. And yes for the record I admit I was really mad after hearing this and should of waited to send the mail when I had time to sleep and think. Wouldnt be the first time the lists have been hit with rash email. But I still should of waited. Like I said it's hard to discount what he says regardless of his attitude and personality when no one else @ BSDi is talking. And BSDi isn't doing anything publically to give any different perception then the negative one already out there. I know i'm not the only person concerned about the direction or lack thereof about FreeBSD's future. And as much as I hate to burst PHK's bubble that most of the userbase is lazy, elitist and worthless, some of us like myself have done a FSCKload of advocacy for FreeBSD at great expense financially in the real world. And over the years that leads to building quite an attachment to FreeBSD and getting riled when roadblocks are put in it's way. As tactless as I am most of the time the concern here is genuine about FreeBSD getting the support and funding it deserves from BSDi. Which in previous threads it has been noted "Whats the point of dealing with BSDi?" "Good question." And other then the sugar coated "Bill is a nutcase who doesn't speak for BSDi and everything is rosy" comments would it be so horrible to expect some kind of a routine section on the BSDi site about happenings in the OSD side? Clearly things are not rosy and it would alleviate alot of my concerns that BSDi is shafting the OSD side if there was more information available about the going's on of the OSD side. And if I thought I was the only would who felt some concern here, I would not even bother to post. Normally I don't spew garbage to the list. And while for some this may border on a waste of bits, some people do care what happens to FreeBSD. And I have had time to cool off and don't feel like storming BSDi, for the moment. :-) ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (316) 326-3862 | FreeBSD Consultant, FreeBSD Geek Work: scanner@jurai.net | Open Systems Inc., Wellington, Kansas Home: scanner@deceptively.shady.org | http://open-systems.net ============================================================================= WINDOWS: "Where do you want to go today?" LINUX: "Where do you want to go tommorow?" BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" ============================================================================= irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 19:21:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B1537B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:21:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2D3KCe08320; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:20:14 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200103130320.f2D3KCe08320@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: David Kelly Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than play In-reply-to: Message from "Daniel O'Connor" of "Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:53:30 +1030." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:20:12 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Daniel O'Connor" writes: > > You could just install Python for Windows and see if he plays with that, On an iMac? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 19:29:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E5737B71C for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:29:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2D3Tbe08350; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:29:37 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200103130329.f2D3Tbe08350@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Rob Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: David Kelly Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? In-reply-to: Message from Rob of "Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:57:31 PST." <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:29:37 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob writes: > My nephew spends just about every waking moment (other than school) in > front of the > computer playing games. So this Christmas I thought I'd expand his > horizons by buying > him a new Imac with SuSE Linux preinstalled by me. Put MacOS X on it two weeks from now. It should have a pretty enough interface to keep him amused. And a solid foundation underneath. My brother started his kids early. They could type before they could talk. About 8 years old now and still not programming. But for the last couple of years they have been "writing books." They write the darndest things which almost make sense. Much like in the moments before waking when dreams almost make sense. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 19:43:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F32E37B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:43:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA62736; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:42:48 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdXlxREa; Mon Mar 12 20:42:41 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03080; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:42:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103130342.UAA03080@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Patent and software ... To: gca1@free.fr (gca1) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:42:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org In-Reply-To: from "gca1" at Mar 12, 2001 06:21:17 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In USA, is it possible to take out a patent for a software or an idea ? No. You can get a process patent on an algorithm applied to a particular problem. This patent won't be recognized by the rest of the world, per se. Effectively, this lets you patent spacific applications of algorithms to process. This is generally considered a bad thing, since patent examiners are generally not practitioners of the art. > if a mere idea can be patented, then companies can patent all the > unimaginable ideas and wait until have been developped by anyone else to > have a operating monopoly or to cash rights. > > Is that true ? No. First, you have to have the idea; then you have to apply it to a process. Patent law was recently reformed in the U.S. to bring it into conformance with the World Intellectual Property Organization. U.S. patents are now 20 years from filing date. Before this change, it was 17 years from date of issue. This let you apply for a patent, and not start the clock on it until someone tried to use your idea for something useful (usually, when you couldn't figure out a use for it yourself). This was called a "submerged patent". > What are organizations which grant patent ? USPTO.gov (United States Patent and Trademark Office). WIPO.int (World Intellectual Property Organization) Most governments have some form of patent protection mechanism. > thank you for your help. If you want help, you should look to the third most cited author in all of Computer Science, Jeffrey Ullman, instead of reading Stallman or other fringe commentators with their own agenda to sell you; here is his 2000 Knuth Prize Lecture, entitled "Ordinary Skill in the Art": http://www-db.stanford.edu/~ullman/pub/focs00.html It discusses in detail the qualifications for patents on software, what's right, and what's wrong with the current state of affairs. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 19:45:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8D837B729 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:45:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rivas45@sprintmail.com) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-004njnbruP323.dialsprint.net [168.191.61.229]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA17033; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:45:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:45:37 -0500 From: Eric Rivas To: Rob Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? Message-Id: <20010312224538.4c42e2c3.rivas45@sprintmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com> References: <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.61 (GTK+ 1.2.8; FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE; i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:57:31 -0800 Rob wrote: > My nephew spends just about every waking moment (other than school) in > front of the > computer playing games. So this Christmas I thought I'd expand his > horizons by buying > him a new Imac with SuSE Linux preinstalled by me. > > I showed him how to use the man pages and other documentation, and tried > to explain to him > why such a computer might be more interesting than a Windoze box. Well, > he was pretty much > flabbergasted and confused by this new computer (try accomplishing that > with a teenager). He > had no idea what to do with it, despite my attempts to explain how cool > it might be to do > some hacking and programming on it. To that end I showed him Python, > and how easy it was to make > programs. > > The computer has just sat unused for weeks. > > Did I screw up? Are children so used to being spoon-fed information > that they no longer have > the interest in independent investigation? This is a bright kid who > claimed to have an > interest in computers. How old is your nephew? I'm 16 and I PREFER to code and play around with my FreeBSD box rather than playing games. Many times my friends have told me about some hot new game, so naturally I get it. I then tend to play for a week then thrown it on the shelf and return to playing around with code. If your nephew is really interested into computer, maybe a little slower start and a little more helping might get him started. But then again, I know some people who say they are into computers but just for playing games. Keep trying, I know I would have liked someone around when I was young (I really got into computers on my own). > > Oh, well thanks for listening to my rant. Maybe it will just take some > time. Rob. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Eric J. Rivas, KC2HMV To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 19:47:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403FB37B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22635; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:43:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAXdailS; Mon Mar 12 20:43:49 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03161; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:47:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103130347.UAA03161@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDi's replies to why BSDi sucks... To: dan@langille.org Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:47:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: scanner@jurai.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200103121844.f2CIipw18488@ns1.unixathome.org> from "Dan Langille" at Mar 13, 2001 07:44:50 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Almost all? I spent some time there before FreeBSDBSDCon 1999 and > again before BSDCon 2000. I didn't notice a HUGE change in personal. > Who are these "almost all of your OSD people" who have quit? I know > Jim and Len left. Who else? I heard "Mike Smith" and one other person who isn't on your list (sorry; wasn't paying that much attention). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 19:59:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B9E337B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:59:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 59737 invoked by uid 100); 13 Mar 2001 03:59:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15021.39728.193728.726045@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:59:44 -0600 To: David Kelly Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than play In-Reply-To: <200103130320.f2D3KCe08320@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <200103130320.f2D3KCe08320@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly types: > "Daniel O'Connor" writes: > > You could just install Python for Windows and see if he plays with that, > On an iMac? :-) What - you mean an iMac won't run Windows software? Good for it! Guess you should install the Mac version, then. Actually, I've been pretty impressed with the Python+tkInter stuff. I write code on FreeBSD, and give it to people to run on Windows or the Mac, and it just works - with the exception of the one time I needed select(), which Windows doesn't do. They force programmers to use a more error-prone approach. In my experience, people (as opposed to geeks) start fooling with computers because 1) Someone with authority makes them, or 2) there's something useful they want it to do. Since I assume #1 is out, you might look at what gets done away from the computer, and point out how the computer could help with that somehow. If you really want them to start programming, or scripting, write the appropriate tool yourself (in Python on your FreeBSD box, of course), and let him know you wrote it. Add the first change request. *Help* him add the second one. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 20: 1:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA7637B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:01:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23108; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:31:12 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200103130320.f2D3KCe08320@grumpy.dyndns.org> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:31:12 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: David Kelly Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than play Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , Rob Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Mar-01 David Kelly wrote: > "Daniel O'Connor" writes: > > You could just install Python for Windows and see if he plays with that, > On an iMac? :-) Ahh well you can get Mac OS X and compile Python :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 20:10:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B0B637B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:10:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 60052 invoked by uid 100); 13 Mar 2001 04:10:21 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15021.40365.547507.83196@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:10:21 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: gca1@free.fr (gca1), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org Subject: Re: Patent and software ... In-Reply-To: <200103130342.UAA03080@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200103130342.UAA03080@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > if a mere idea can be patented, then companies can patent all the > > unimaginable ideas and wait until have been developped by anyone else to > > have a operating monopoly or to cash rights. > > > > Is that true ? > > No. First, you have to have the idea; then you have to apply > it to a process. Patent law was recently reformed in the U.S. > to bring it into conformance with the World Intellectual Property > Organization. U.S. patents are now 20 years from filing date. > > Before this change, it was 17 years from date of issue. This > let you apply for a patent, and not start the clock on it until > someone tried to use your idea for something useful (usually, > when you couldn't figure out a use for it yourself). This was > called a "submerged patent". I thought it was submarine, but it's the same idea - you get torpedoed by something you couldn't know was there. The most blatant example of this was the Selden patent on the automobile, which was filed in 1879 (before anyone ever built a working automobile) and issued in 1895 - after the industry was going pretty well, but before Selden built a working car. The industry was so put out by it they formed an association for patent sharing. Any member of the association could use any feature introduced by another member, patents or no, in the model year following the introduction. The only major manufacturer who didn't join the association was Ford, who never patented anything, and ignored everyone else's patents anyway. The result of this blatant neglect of intellectual property laws was the world strongest automobile industry, turning out some of the best cars in the world. > If you want help, you should look to the third most cited author > in all of Computer Science, Jeffrey Ullman, instead of reading > Stallman or other fringe commentators with their own agenda to > sell you; here is his 2000 Knuth Prize Lecture, entitled "Ordinary > Skill in the Art": > > http://www-db.stanford.edu/~ullman/pub/focs00.html > > It discusses in detail the qualifications for patents on software, > what's right, and what's wrong with the current state of affairs. Thanks for the pointer. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 20:16:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0101137B71A for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA37592; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:16:34 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd3YRlaa; Mon Mar 12 21:16:29 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03741; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:16:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103130416.VAA03741@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 04:16:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "David Schwartz" at Mar 12, 2001 06:00:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Authors do not have moral rights; they have legal rights, > > granted to them under law, such law in the United States > > being an instrumentality of Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 > > of the U.S. Constitution: > > So if I write a story , I don't have the moral right to decide whether to > share it with others or not? Since I do in fact have that right, I'm curious > if you could cite the law that gives it to me. All works of authorship are automatically copyright by the author, whether they affix a copyright statement, or not. This has been the case since your country signed the Berne Convention. So you have the _legal_ right to not publish the story, and to not give away publication rights. For example, since you are posting this email to a public mailing list which does not have membership restrictions to qualify its members as a "select group", you have ceded the first North American publishing rights to your posting, as well as other right in other countries where this list is distributed. Publication of something to a "select group" falls into the category of "trade secret", BTW, so if this _were_ a closed list, so long as you exercised due dilligence in choosing the group and informing them to to repeat your message, you have certain legal rights remaining as regards publication. So, for example, you could send a private email to someone, and recover damages based on treble your losses for the disclosure of your message, so long as you warned the recipient against disclosure; that assumes that you had any real losses. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 20:24:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE97D37B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:24:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA04069; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:21:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAifaG0h; Mon Mar 12 21:21:21 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03981; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:24:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103130424.VAA03981@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? To: europax@home.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 04:24:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com> from "Rob" at Mar 12, 2001 03:57:31 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My nephew spends just about every waking moment (other than school) in > front of the > computer playing games. So this Christmas I thought I'd expand his > horizons by buying > him a new Imac with SuSE Linux preinstalled by me. An editor for Quake WADS might convince him. I personally like the Pinball Construction Set; it wasn't long until anyone I let play with it started feeling limited by the constraints, and wanted to head off into the weeds with their own game design. Alternately, my all time favorites were the text adventures; they are available in two "Lost Treasures" packages. There is an interpreter for them in ports, which would let you play them under FreeBSD. Then there's the decompiler and compiler for ZIL (Zork Implementation Language), also in ports. If he could find a friend who had the necessary toys of their own, they could spend some time rewriting the games for each other ("Floyd Here Now!"), as a challenge to each other. I know, I know, he's probably into shoot-'em-ups. Bletch. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 22:22:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ADF637B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14ciC5-0003oc-00; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:22:05 -0800 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:22:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD or Linux or "generic" certification Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am helping a local community college plan its BSD/Linux/Unix curriculum. Since these courses are for its technology training center, they desire that the classes help prepare for an official certification. In one of my classes, I used a BSD for the majority of the demonstrations, lessons and course work. Since, I am planning the curriculum and organizing the marketing, I will be pushing to balance BSD as much as Linux. Today, I was told that I should focus on a "industry-known" certification -- hopefully Sylvan Prometric-recognized. From looking at Sylvan Prometric's site, I see mention of a new Comptia certifications for Linux -- but they appear to be in the beginnings of development. In my searches, I have not found anything about BSD certifications. I am hoping I can find a certification that is generic -- so I can equally use BSD in my courses. I have found one generic certification from SAGE, but, as far as I can tell, it is also in the very beginnings of development. Does anyone know of any generic Unix certifications? I have also looked at SAIR (which focuses on GNU and Linux) and LPI (Linux Professional Institute). In addition, I have researched on starting a certification that can apply to BSD and Linux. From following the LPI articles and news for the past couple(?) years, it appears that either it is extremely hard to get a certification developed -- or they are just slow or stuck in some bureaucracy. It sure seems like a beginning (Level 1 or Junior sysadmin-type) certification can be developed a lot faster than a year. In fact, I believe it can be done within a few months. (The hardest part may be getting Sylvan Prometric or another industry-known testing facility to recognize the certification.) Is anyone interested in helping develop a BSD (or generic Unix) certification track? Does anyone know of any BSD (or other generic Unix) certifications in development? If I can't find one soon (within the month), I'll probably choose LPI and balance my course work around it. Any other ideas or suggestions? Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 22:27: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FD437B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:27:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27076; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:26:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312224412.04461ca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:52:54 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, mwm@mired.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, vcardona@home.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200103121308.HAA20629@mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net> References: <15020.33581.202339.895997@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:10 AM 3/12/2001, anon@somewhere.net wrote: >And if they do fold, so what? >100 years ago the music industry did not exist. There is no legal, moral, >or economic mandate that it must still exist 100 years (or even 10 years) >from now. Industries come and go all the time. They are born when a new >need arises, and they die when that need fades away. "The music industry" is a very broad term. It includes musicians, composers, publishers, retailers, agents, lawyers, producers, engineers, equipment manufacturers, etc., many of whom make very valuable contributions. The way in which music is delivered may shift, but it's absurd to say that the entire industry will (or should) just "fade away." As I've said several times during this conversation, there have been changes in the technology, but this is no reason to instigate a war between the many different interests involved in delivering content. By preaching destruction, as you do in your message, you're declaring war instead of brokering a new (and, hopefully, better) peace. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 22:27:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009B337B718 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:27:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27079; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:26:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312225325.0445c760@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:55:02 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Terry Lambert" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Stallman stalls again Cc: "Mike Meyer" , In-Reply-To: References: <200103070148.SAA06002@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:00 PM 3/12/2001, David Schwartz wrote: > So if I write a story , I don't have the moral right to decide whether to >share it with others or not? Since I do in fact have that right, I'm curious >if you could cite the law that gives it to me. I'd reckon that it would be the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which grants you freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Oh, and depending on the circumstances, perhaps the Fifth Amendment. You also have rights under the Berne Convention, which the US has ratified. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 22:27:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6865B37B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27072; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:26:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:43:48 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010312113859.G60399@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:38 AM 3/12/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I have been in Europe for a few months now. I do not need to pay >any copyright fee for photocopying articles. Nobody keeps tracks >of which articles I photocopy. It's part of the fee you pay to use the copying machine. > If authors do indeed get compensated >by the libraries I use, it is certainly not based on how often they >individually get photocopied. It's done via statistical sampling -- the same way performing rights agencies like ASCAP distribute royalties for radio airplay to artists and publishers. No, it's not 100% accurate, but to be more accurate would require the library to track what you're copying. And no one wants that. (OK, maybe someone who was really fascist might.) > It could well be that a blank fee is >charged simply to "compensate" for possible copyright violations, >just as recordable media, CD writers, etc, are being taxed now; but >that simply doesn't keep track of what is actually being copied. I've never liked "blank taxes," because -- unlike the case of a copier in a library -- there's a much greater chance that you're entitled to copy what you're copying for free. Blank taxes are also usually designed to hurt small publishers at the expense of larger ones. >Moreover, when I write something I'm pretty happy for others to read >it, and most of my earlier writings are retrievable for free from >http://arxiv.org and often from the journal's own web pages. I, >likewise, download and often print huge quantities of writings by >others at the above sites. It is true that I don't fall in the same >category as you -- I get paid for the research, by my employers, not >for the writing. But my experience with creative people is that >they're more concerned that they be *read* than that every possible >reader compensate them for it. I'd like a bit of both. I like to be read, but I also need to eat. > It is only the really big names, who >already command a large market, who tend to argue against things like >online reproduction. Not necessarily. Stephen King has implemented it with great success, in fact. >People like that (a recent example was Harlan >Ellison) are rich anyway. In his long rant (recent slashdot story), >Ellison claims that he's "also" arguing for various authors who were >allegedly pirated wholesale and died poor: Harlan has a point. Of course, if he's acting true to form, he's making that point in an abrasive way. That's just Harlan. But it shouldn't color his argument, which is still valid. His rights as an author and copyright holder WERE violated. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 22:27:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C7937B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:27:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27061; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:26:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312215702.0445f5f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:32:24 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15020.33581.202339.895997@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:05 AM 3/12/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >My point is that the conferred rights do *not* have to be the >copyright system. The rights granted by copyright are the only ones that Congress is allowed by the Constitution to confer. >Actually, the things copyright holders have the right to demand >compensation for are listed in the US copyright code, chapter 1, >section 106. "Fair use" is a list of exceptions those rights. They >don't have the right to demand compensation for anything not listed >in that section, whether it's fair use or not. There's no such thing as a "US Copyright Code." There is, however, a section of the US Code dealing with copyright. And Congress has a great deal of leeway in defining what goes there. It also has the power, due to the even broader Commerce Clause, to regulate commerce. I think that the restrictions in the DMCA suck, but it is entirely possible that the ridiculously pro-big-business Supreme Court will use the Commerce Clause as justification for them. US citizens have been lax in demanding that the President's appointments to the Supreme Court be based on traits such as clear thinking and ethics, rather than conformance to a partisan agenda. We may pay for that, big time, when the DMCA reaches the Supremes. >> You don't have to release your work to the general public. You can >> license it privately to a small number of individuals if you'd like. > >In which case it doesn't need to have a copyright attached at all; the >license is more than sufficient. That's not how copyright works. You own a copyright on any work you create, whether or not it's published. And it's only because you have the rights conferred by copyright that you can choose to give some of them away as part of a licensing agreement! >But the point of copyright is to encourage the authors to release >their work to the general public, not to a small set of licensees. That's your interpretation. I'd beg to differ. If it advances the state of the art, or encourages a creative person to create more, that's a good thing even if the whole world does NOT initially get access to it. >For something to be copyrightable, it must be fixed (Chapter 1, >Section 102, paragraph a of the US Copyright code). A performance >isn't fixed, and hence not copyrightable. Recordings of it are fixed, >and hence copyrightable. Not so. An author and/or a performer has the right to demand that you not make recordings of a performance, and to take appropriate action to protect his or her rights if you try. This right exists BEFORE you've made any "fixation" of the work. That's why you can be searched for recording devices at the entrance to a concert. >"Impacting sales" is a *long* way from "causing a major economic >dislocation". Get back to me record companies start folding because of >it. We don't have ubiquitous broadband yet. It could well happen when we do. In the meantime, however, what will happen is that the record won't earn out its advance. The publisher will grab all the money, and the artist will be forever in debt to the publisher. Not a good thing. >> >wherease the publishers mucking >> >with fair use and related rights is threatening an entire profession. >> Which one? > >Librarians. I posted a URL to the librarians take on this already. I doubt that libraries will cease to be. I think that the worst that will happen is that they'll pay ASCAP-style royalties to copyright holders. As I mentioned in another message, I get royalties from several European countries because I write a lot of magazine articles and also some music. Those fees originate from the money deposited into copying machines (the assumption being, of course, that copies are being made of my articles). I don't get that much -- only a few hundred dollars per year. But it's enough to pay for something useful -- say, the airfare for a trip to COMDEX. Or a trip to play bass at a bluegrass festival. Which in turn will encourage me to write more articles and/or create more music. >> What would you propose? Something like ASCAP? From whom would it collect >> funds? > >I don't really have a good idea. Of course, it's clear from the state >of the world that the current system isn't a good idea, either. >Stallman proposed a tax system at one point, but it's probably not an >improvement. Stallman's proposal was a terrible idea: a tax whose proceeds would go toward the creation of GPLed software. This would be a travesty. IP created by the government, using taxpayer money, should be available to EVERYONE -- most especially businesses which can productize it. (Many of the high tech products we enjoy today are spinoffs from research done by or for NASA or DARPA.) In fact, if a work is created by government employees, the law says it can't be copyrighted at all. This is good. >There have been experiments with voluntary contributions, >but I don't think those have worked very well. Possibly the concept of >copyright can be made to work, but I suspect it will take a nearly >complete reworking. The fundamentals are already sound. Artists should have merchantable and non-merchantable rights in their work, and the government should protect those rights. Yes, there are a few logistics to be worked out. >The real goal is to fix things so that the publishers attempts to >enforce copyright technologically doesn't take away the publics fair >use rights or the rights of creators who don't happen to be major >publishers. On the other hand, there should also be some measures to prevent ubiquitous, high bandwidth data pipes from making it impossible to protect those rights. Right now, only a relatively small percentage of us have broadband access. (I'm one of those lucky few; because I host an ISP's POP and the hub of a community network on the LAN in my home office, I can pump out data over a T1 line that is connected, upstream, to three more.) But I watched the traffic statistics a few weekends ago, when it was rumored that the plug would be pulled on Napster the following Monday. The line had never been so completely saturated! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 22:35:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 568B437B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:35:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 71305 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2001 06:35:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 13 Mar 2001 06:35:24 -0000 Message-ID: <3AADBFAA.8285DD73@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:35:22 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <15020.33581.202339.895997@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312224412.04461ca0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > "The music industry" is a very broad term. It includes musicians, composers, > publishers, retailers, agents, lawyers, producers, engineers, equipment > manufacturers, etc., many of whom make very valuable contributions. > The way in which music is delivered may shift, but it's absurd to say that > the entire industry will (or should) just "fade away." As I've said several > times during this conversation, there have been changes in the technology, > but this is no reason to instigate a war between the many different interests > involved in delivering content. By preaching destruction, as you do in your > message, you're declaring war instead of brokering a new (and, hopefully, > better) peace. Okay, let's refer to that part of the Music Industry that is represented by large corporate entities selling popular music. I'm restricting my comments to this arena because here I believe I actually have some Clue about the behaviour of the companies involved (or, at least, some Opinion, which in the end is all that matters, isn't it?). In that context, I would say that Anon's comments are spot on. I'd go far as to say that those aforesaid corporate entities could be best described as a collection of amoral scumbags who will go to any length to further their own profits at the expense of artists and consumers. I am more than happy to declare war on these pricks. Go read Courtney Love's Salon article again and then tell me we don't need a revolution. -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 12 22:39:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9552137B719 for ; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:39:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 71325 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2001 06:39:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 13 Mar 2001 06:39:20 -0000 Message-ID: <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:39:18 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > It is only the really big names, who > >already command a large market, who tend to argue against things like > >online reproduction. > > Not necessarily. Stephen King has implemented it with great success, > in fact. Actually, no, King's experiment has gone wrong, and much of the blame lies with the specific implementation he devised. Some conspiracy theorists have argued that it was designed to fail, but the more likely explanation is that he simply doesn't understand the medium. -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 0:38:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5FB0D37B718 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:38:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 67928 invoked by uid 100); 13 Mar 2001 08:38:26 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15021.56450.940181.638227@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:38:26 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312215702.0445f5f0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312215702.0445f5f0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 01:05 AM 3/12/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >My point is that the conferred rights do *not* have to be the > >copyright system. > The rights granted by copyright are the only ones that Congress > is allowed by the Constitution to confer. So? One of the first things the US did with the constitution was change it. > >Actually, the things copyright holders have the right to demand > >compensation for are listed in the US copyright code, chapter 1, > >section 106. "Fair use" is a list of exceptions those rights. They > >don't have the right to demand compensation for anything not listed > >in that section, whether it's fair use or not. > > There's no such thing as a "US Copyright Code." There is, however, > a section of the US Code dealing with copyright. Yes, but it's a lot easier to type "US Copyright Code" than to type "The section of the US Code dealing with copyright", or even "United States, Code Title 17 - Copyrights". The chapter and section numbers I gave you are correct for that section of the US Code. > >> You don't have to release your work to the general public. You can > >> license it privately to a small number of individuals if you'd like. > >In which case it doesn't need to have a copyright attached at all; the > >license is more than sufficient. > That's not how copyright works. You own a copyright on any work you > create, whether or not it's published. And it's only because you > have the rights conferred by copyright that you can choose to > give some of them away as part of a licensing agreement! Not only are you once again assuming the solution is what you want it to be rather than discussing the issue, you're also making a false claim. You have the right to create copies of your works and give them away without any copyright laws at all. You also have the right to requires those receiving them to adhere to whatever restrictions you require of them. That's the basis of trade secret protection. > >But the point of copyright is to encourage the authors to release > >their work to the general public, not to a small set of licensees. > That's your interpretation. I'd beg to differ. If it advances the > state of the art, or encourages a creative person to create more, > that's a good thing even if the whole world does NOT initially get > access to it. Those are all good things, but you don't need copyright to encourage those kinds of things. > >For something to be copyrightable, it must be fixed (Chapter 1, > >Section 102, paragraph a of the US Copyright code). A performance > >isn't fixed, and hence not copyrightable. Recordings of it are fixed, > >and hence copyrightable. > Not so. An author and/or a performer has the right to demand that > you not make recordings of a performance, and to take appropriate > action to protect his or her rights if you try. This right exists > BEFORE you've made any "fixation" of the work. That's why you can > be searched for recording devices at the entrance to a concert. I already said the creators had the right to control recording a performance. performance, but that right is *not* granted by title 17. So your claim that this means the performance is a copyrightable thing is a non sequitor. > >"Impacting sales" is a *long* way from "causing a major economic > >dislocation". Get back to me record companies start folding because of > >it. > We don't have ubiquitous broadband yet. It could well happen when we > do. Yup. And when roads became ubiquitous, buggy whip manufacturers folded. That's what happens when there are major technological changes. > >> >with fair use and related rights is threatening an entire profession. > >> Which one? > >Librarians. I posted a URL to the librarians take on this already. > I doubt that libraries will cease to be. The librarians don't agree with you. > >There have been experiments with voluntary contributions, > >but I don't think those have worked very well. Possibly the concept of > >copyright can be made to work, but I suspect it will take a nearly > >complete reworking. > The fundamentals are already sound. Artists should have merchantable > and non-merchantable rights in their work, and the government should > protect those rights. Yes, there are a few logistics to be worked out. The fundamentals aren't sound - they economic balances which are no longer true. > >The real goal is to fix things so that the publishers attempts to > >enforce copyright technologically doesn't take away the publics fair > >use rights or the rights of creators who don't happen to be major > >publishers. > On the other hand, there should also be some measures to prevent > ubiquitous, high bandwidth data pipes from making it impossible > to protect those rights. So simply make high bandwidth data connections illegal. That makes more sense and is violates fewer rights than the existing practices. Of course, the reality is that high bandwidth data pipes don't make it impossible to protect those rights. The existence of publicly available copying equipment makes it impossible to protect those rights. Publishers gave up trying to enforce it for audio cassettes, and got a similar compromise with royalties on audio cd's (which you pay even if your recordings are all fair use or original material). That's why the publishers aren't trying to simply ban high bandwidth connections, they are placing technological limits on peoples ability to make copies, such that I can't, for instance, put anything better than VCR quality videos of family on DVD-RAMs to share with my family. This isn't a new thing - it's been going on since the publishers managed to delay the introduction of DAT tapes to the US market while they discussed audio watermarking and other violations of the public and artists rights. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 0:42:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B33037B71A for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:42:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 68095 invoked by uid 100); 13 Mar 2001 08:42:50 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15021.56714.10595.213153@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:42:50 -0600 To: Craig Harding Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig Harding types: > Brett Glass wrote: > > > It is only the really big names, who > > >already command a large market, who tend to argue against things like > > >online reproduction. > > Not necessarily. Stephen King has implemented it with great success, > > in fact. > Actually, no, King's experiment has gone wrong, and much of the blame > lies with the specific implementation he devised. Some conspiracy > theorists have argued that it was designed to fail, but the more likely > explanation is that he simply doesn't understand the medium. I would argue that *nobody* understands the medium yet. That's why the publishers are scared stupid. They don't understand it, and are desperately trying to control it in order to preserve their profits. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 3:30: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F14D37B71C for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:29:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anon@somewhere.net) Received: from somewhere.net (adsl-216-103-90-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [216.103.90.137]) by mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA12038; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 05:27:38 -0600 (CST) From: anon@somewhere.net Message-Id: <200103131127.FAA12038@mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net> To: brett@lariat.org, crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:25:00 -0000 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312224412.04461ca0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:10 AM 3/12/2001, anon@somewhere.net wrote: > > >And if they do fold, so what? > >100 years ago the music industry did not exist. There is no legal, moral, > >or economic mandate that it must still exist 100 years (or even 10 years) > >from now. Industries come and go all the time. They are born when a new > >need arises, and they die when that need fades away. > > "The music industry" is a very broad term. It includes musicians, composers, > publishers, retailers, agents, lawyers, producers, engineers, equipment > manufacturers, etc., many of whom make very valuable contributions. Pardon my inaccuracy. I was referring to the large labels, which Craig so eloquently described as "a collection of amoral scumbags". I am guilty of the same overbroad wording as was used in naming their paid mouthpiece, the Recording Industry Association of America. Mea culpa. In another message, Brett Glass also wrote: > At 01:05 AM 3/12/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >"Impacting sales" is a *long* way from "causing a major economic > >dislocation". Get back to me record companies start folding because of > >it. > > We don't have ubiquitous broadband yet. It could well happen when we > do. > > In the meantime, however, what will happen is that the record won't > earn out its advance. The publisher will grab all the money, and > the artist will be forever in debt to the publisher. Not a good > thing. That's just it. This is already happening, and has been happening for decades. The labels have been screwing artists in exactly this way long before things like Napster came around. What you describe is a textbook example of how the copyright system is abused, to the detriment of the actual creative folks. In yet a third message, Craig Harding wrote: > Go read Courtney Love's Salon article again and then tell me we don't > need a revolution. Well worth reading. For those who haven't read it, look here: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/ I never really liked her until I read her speech. She definitely deserves some respect for doing that. What she describes is exactly how the system works, except that she exaggerates the royalties paid to the artists. 20%? No way. It's more like 7.5 cents per track, which means the artist gets 90 cents for each copy of a typical 12 track album sold, not the $2 figure she uses. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 10:31:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE2637B719 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:31:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14ctZv-000HKH-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:31:27 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f2DIVQO01048 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:31:26 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:31:26 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: taking the plunge (kernel/system programming) Message-ID: <20010313183125.A992@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I'm ready to do it. I want to start with one good book, then start learning by doing. Does everyone still recommend 'The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System,' or is it pretty much obsolete? Is there a better source of starting info? jm -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org "It took the computing power of three C-64s to fly to the Moon. It takes a 486 to run Windows 95. Something is wrong here." --------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 10:40:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8253837B71A for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02950; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:39:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313113720.00dea140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:39:41 -0700 To: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:39 PM 3/12/2001, Craig Harding wrote: >Actually, no, King's experiment has gone wrong, and much of the blame >lies with the specific implementation he devised. King's effort did better than he (or I!) expected. Remember that King was walking into a war, in which those who demanded that all content be given to them for free (a la Stallman) were already committed to taking no prisoners. Considering this, King did extremely well. Many readers were ethical and did pay. --Brett GLass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 14:20:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dell.dannyland.org (dell.dannyland.org [64.81.36.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22AC37B738 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:20:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@toldme.com) Received: by dell.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F1ED45BF7; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:20:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:20:35 -0800 From: dannyman To: David Kelly Cc: Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? Message-ID: <20010313142035.K3500@dell.dannyland.org> References: <200103130329.f2D3Tbe08350@grumpy.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200103130329.f2D3Tbe08350@grumpy.dyndns.org>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 09:29:37PM -0600 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 09:29:37PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: [...] > Put MacOS X on it two weeks from now. It should have a pretty enough > interface to keep him amused. And a solid foundation underneath. > > My brother started his kids early. They could type before they could > talk. About 8 years old now and still not programming. But for the last > couple of years they have been "writing books." They write the darndest > things which almost make sense. Much like in the moments before waking > when dreams almost make sense. I'm no parent, but I like this answer best - MacOS X is probably good (like the Amiga I cut my teeth on) where you get a cuddly GUI but over the years you roll up sleeves more often to get down and dirty. But the real answer is that "maybe the kid don't want to code, but he'll find something else cool to do." You sure he wants to grow up to be a l33t h4XX0R? Maybe he is interested in writing, or art, or music ... Mac is a good platform for this, as far as I can tell. Go for OS X. Linux is not yet a good plaything for a youngster looking to find his interest. Another argument for not doing the Windows thing is that it may encourage non-conventional thinking. :) My 2c. -danny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 14:46:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 627B137B718 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 90717 invoked by uid 100); 13 Mar 2001 22:46:37 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15022.41805.639493.8311@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:46:37 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <15021.56714.10595.213153@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <15021.56714.10595.213153@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's a different take on Brett's "new peace" . To give it away, the conclusion is that the war is over, the publisers have won, and it's probably going to be the end of open device interface standards - which pretty much means the end of any kind of open source OS. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 15: 7:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3112C37B71B for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:07:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA71253; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:06:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:06:54 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com To: dannyman Cc: David Kelly , Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? In-Reply-To: <20010313142035.K3500@dell.dannyland.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, dannyman wrote: :On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 09:29:37PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: :[...] :> Put MacOS X on it two weeks from now. It should have a pretty enough :> interface to keep him amused. And a solid foundation underneath. :> :> My brother started his kids early. They could type before they could :> talk. About 8 years old now and still not programming. But for the last :> couple of years they have been "writing books." They write the darndest :> things which almost make sense. Much like in the moments before waking :> when dreams almost make sense. : :I'm no parent, but I like this answer best - MacOS X is probably good (like :the Amiga I cut my teeth on) where you get a cuddly GUI but over the years you :roll up sleeves more often to get down and dirty. : :But the real answer is that "maybe the kid don't want to code, but he'll find :something else cool to do." You sure he wants to grow up to be a l33t h4XX0R? :Maybe he is interested in writing, or art, or music ... Mac is a good platform :for this, as far as I can tell. Go for OS X. Linux is not yet a good :plaything for a youngster looking to find his interest. The way I see this is that computers are tools. They are useful to solve problems -- whether the problem is what do I use to write the great american novel (LaTeX, of course!), or how do I mindlessly entertain myself, or how do I get a job, or whatever. It's a very small set of computer users who have the right sort of mindset to do much beyond that. Teaching that computers are powerful, flexible tools, that can be made to do what you want, and not just what they want you to do, and you can pretty easily whip up a script to do lots of things, will help. One of my biggest complaints with Windows, and Windows monstrerously-bloated-every-piece-of-software-has-to-do- everything-poorly-but-nothing-well software is that you can't get it do anything. It's conditioned people to be a tool of the computer and not the other way around. I tried to explain to someone why I used a UNIX box to read my mail, and not the company normal Outlook. That the user interface is awful wasn't really the point (pine's sucks pretty hard), but that I couldn't make the machine do arbitrary things with my mail. I had a hard time time convincing him this was useful until I showed him a webpage that showed some interesting stats on it. I built it with a makefile, which ran a script to grab some data from a database, process it, and update the webpages with it. The kicker: it was run by procmail, and got kicked off by regular mail message that had updated data in it. He was unable to suggest a way to get a windows box do the same thing, particularly one that didn't cost a cent. Showing people things like that often generates a "Wow, I didn't reallize I could make a computer do that for me!" response. If you can install the right adititude towards computers in someone young enough, you can probably get someone who will eventually want to write code. This should be especially true if you can convince them that it's not really some sort of black art. It's another failing of windows, that it's a big leap to being able to write useful programs -- since they have to have a user interface. Things like VB (blethourus as it is) help that, but an environment where there's a powerful command line interface available are even more useful. David Scheidt -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 16:37:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CED37B718 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bartequi@inwind.it) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.160.64) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.061) id 3AA767570010139D for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:37:45 +0100 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:39:52 GMT Message-ID: <20010314.395200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- oth To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have heard about a recent research on the so-called "Internet=20 generation". Actually, this label was used to indicate the [LoseBlows]=20 "point-and-click" generation browsing, or rather, surfing the 'Net. Some results of the research: 1) pointing-and-clicking (cf Pavlov) limits thought and, especially,=20 (mental) analytical processes; 2) pointing-and-clicking & surfing reduces concentration; 3) it also reduces memory; 4) people begin not to distinguish important from immaterial information= ,=20 inter alia, as well as reducing their intellectual/critical capacities: = a=20 side-effect of too much (uncritical) surfing. In other words, pointing-and-clicking & surfing the 'Net causes people t= o=20 become (more) stupid. No joke. Ok, many people have always thought (and said) that for ages -- on an=20 empirical basis :-)) But now there seem to be more serious grounds for=20 the argument. Well, it is an important point to consider when bringing u= p=20 children... Corollary: Unix (and FreeBSD in particular) is -- and makes people using= =20 it -- really smart ;-)) Intelligenti pauca. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 18:39:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A0F37B73A for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:39:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010314023953.NGHY2254.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:39:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3AAEDA05.70B4FB77@home.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:40:05 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? References: <200103130329.f2D3Tbe08350@grumpy.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > Rob writes: > > My nephew spends just about every waking moment (other than school) in > > front of the > > computer playing games. So this Christmas I thought I'd expand his > > horizons by buying > > him a new Imac with SuSE Linux preinstalled by me. > > Put MacOS X on it two weeks from now. It should have a pretty enough > interface to keep him amused. And a solid foundation underneath. > > My brother started his kids early. They could type before they could > talk. About 8 years old now and still not programming. But for the last > couple of years they have been "writing books." They write the darndest > things which almost make sense. Much like in the moments before waking > when dreams almost make sense. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. I never thought about Mac OS X. I have an an old Power Computing clone here in the basement- I wonder if OS X will run on it? It might be nice to try it out first. Thanks for the advice. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 18:46:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DAB37B71B for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:46:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010314024656.NOCQ2254.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:46:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3AAEDBAC.B175DC15@home.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:47:08 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: David Kelly , Daniel O'Connor , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than play References: <200103130320.f2D3KCe08320@grumpy.dyndns.org> <15021.39728.193728.726045@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > David Kelly types: > > "Daniel O'Connor" writes: > > > You could just install Python for Windows and see if he plays with that, > > On an iMac? :-) > > What - you mean an iMac won't run Windows software? Good for it! > > Guess you should install the Mac version, then. http://www.python.org/download/download_mac.html > > > Actually, I've been pretty impressed with the Python+tkInter stuff. I > write code on FreeBSD, and give it to people to run on Windows or the > Mac, and it just works - with the exception of the one time I needed > select(), which Windows doesn't do. They force programmers to use a > more error-prone approach. > > In my experience, people (as opposed to geeks) start fooling with > computers because 1) Someone with authority makes them, or 2) there's > something useful they want it to do. > > Since I assume #1 is out, you might look at what gets done away from > the computer, and point out how the computer could help with that > somehow. If you really want them to start programming, or scripting, > write the appropriate tool yourself (in Python on your FreeBSD box, of > course), and let him know you wrote it. Add the first change > request. *Help* him add the second one. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. I also love Python/Tkinter. I use it at work for controlling $$$$ in instrumentation over the GPIB bus. I compete with the "evil" Perl people :) there. Sounds like a chapter for Dilbert. I'll see if he has some interesting task that could easily be scripted, maybe something for school. Thanks. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 18:48:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED9537B719 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:48:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14d1KD-000Eqd-00; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:47:45 +0000 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:47:45 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Adam Laurie Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: iButton Development Message-ID: <20010314024745.Z96832@hand.dotat.at> References: <7857.984495569@critter> <3AAE4798.C7C457E4@algroup.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AAE4798.C7C457E4@algroup.co.uk> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adam Laurie wrote: > >this assumes, of course, that you've stored your "real" original keys >somewhere *really* safe... deep underground, blast doors, bullet proof >glass, etc. etc... you know the kind of thing.... :) > >cheers, >Adam >-- >Adam Laurie Tel: +44 (20) 8742 0755 >A.L. Digital Ltd. Fax: +44 (20) 8742 5995 >Voysey House http://www.thebunker.net ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :-) >Barley Mow Passage http://www.aldigital.co.uk >London W4 4GB mailto:adam@algroup.co.uk >UNITED KINGDOM PGP key on keyservers Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at FAEROES SOUTHEAST ICELAND: NORTHERLY 5 INCREASING 6 OR 7. SHOWERS. GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 18:50:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B4D37B718 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:50:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010314025051.NSCJ2254.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:50:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3AAEDC97.E1EF2CB7@home.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:51:03 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- oth References: <20010314.395200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > I have heard about a recent research on the so-called "Internet > generation". Actually, this label was used to indicate the [LoseBlows] > "point-and-click" generation browsing, or rather, surfing the 'Net. > > Some results of the research: > > 1) pointing-and-clicking (cf Pavlov) limits thought and, especially, > (mental) analytical processes; > 2) pointing-and-clicking & surfing reduces concentration; > 3) it also reduces memory; > 4) people begin not to distinguish important from immaterial information, > inter alia, as well as reducing their intellectual/critical capacities: a > side-effect of too much (uncritical) surfing. > > In other words, pointing-and-clicking & surfing the 'Net causes people to > become (more) stupid. No joke. > > Ok, many people have always thought (and said) that for ages -- on an > empirical basis :-)) But now there seem to be more serious grounds for > the argument. Well, it is an important point to consider when bringing up > children... > > > Corollary: Unix (and FreeBSD in particular) is -- and makes people using > it -- really smart ;-)) > > Intelligenti pauca. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I have a hard time explaining to Windoze people why I like Unix so much on the laptop. Its because I don't have to point and click! I really like typing in console mode, eg. irc with BitchX. Its refreshing to come home and type after point-and-click all day long at work on winNT. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 18:53:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934E337B719 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010314025326.NUUD2254.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:53:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3AAEDD32.79506E27@home.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:53:38 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? References: <200103130424.VAA03981@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > My nephew spends just about every waking moment (other than school) in > > front of the > > computer playing games. So this Christmas I thought I'd expand his > > horizons by buying > > him a new Imac with SuSE Linux preinstalled by me. > > An editor for Quake WADS might convince him. > > I personally like the Pinball Construction Set; it wasn't long > until anyone I let play with it started feeling limited by the > constraints, and wanted to head off into the weeds with their > own game design. > > Alternately, my all time favorites were the text adventures; > they are available in two "Lost Treasures" packages. There > is an interpreter for them in ports, which would let you play > them under FreeBSD. > > Then there's the decompiler and compiler for ZIL (Zork > Implementation Language), also in ports. > > If he could find a friend who had the necessary toys of their > own, they could spend some time rewriting the games for each > other ("Floyd Here Now!"), as a challenge to each other. > > I know, I know, he's probably into shoot-'em-ups. Bletch. 8-(. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. I will print this email, and look into what you have suggested. Thanks! Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 19: 4:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842A637B71A for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:04:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA43519; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:03:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:03:48 -0500 (EST) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200103140303.WAA43519@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: Olivier Nicole Cc: lee@kechara.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT?] - Central point router In-Reply-To: <200103140235.JAA25550@bazooka.cs.ait.ac.th> References: <200103131841.SAA10089@mailgate.kechara.net> <200103140235.JAA25550@bazooka.cs.ait.ac.th> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Am I the only person who saw that subject line and was immediately reminded of Central Point Software, the company that sold programs (like ``Copy II PC'') for duplicating copy-protected software? -GAWollman [0] No, there was no real point to this message. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 19: 8:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD71937B718 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2E37ve16140; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:08:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200103140308.f2E37ve16140@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: dannyman Cc: Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: David Kelly Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? In-reply-to: Message from dannyman of "Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:20:35 PST." <20010313142035.K3500@dell.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:07:57 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org dannyman writes: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 09:29:37PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > [...] > > Put MacOS X on it two weeks from now. It should have a pretty enough > > interface to keep him amused. And a solid foundation underneath. > > > > My brother started his kids early. They could type before they could > > talk. About 8 years old now and still not programming. But for the last > > couple of years they have been "writing books." They write the darndest > > things which almost make sense. Much like in the moments before waking > > when dreams almost make sense. > > I'm no parent, but I like this answer best - MacOS X is probably good (like > the Amiga I cut my teeth on) where you get a cuddly GUI but over the years you > roll up sleeves more often to get down and dirty. > > But the real answer is that "maybe the kid don't want to code, but he'll find > something else cool to do." You sure he wants to grow up to be a l33t h4XX0R? > Maybe he is interested in writing, or art, or music ... Mac is a good platform > for this, as far as I can tell. Go for OS X. Linux is not yet a good > plaything for a youngster looking to find his interest. Come to think of it, I did get my brother's twins started on FreeBSD only a little bit after they started on the Mac. One Christmas I hauled my 386sx16 4MB luggable (bigger than a laptop, smaller than an Osborne, has an old version of FreeBSD on it) out there. Kids spotted it and recognized a keyboard. Only keyboard they saw at their Grandma's house. And asked if they could type on it. Up to that time that was the most I had heard them talk when one said "type?" and pointed. Am not exactly sure but believe I turned these 4 year olds loose in vi. Only had to be told once, "type v i enter and hit i again to start typing." They didn't learn editing. Didn't know it but they didn't want to pound. They wanted to type the alphabet. Funny, they didn't like what the letter "q" looked like so they'd get that far, decide it was a mistake, hit return and start over. Five or six times before somebody noticed and explained, "that's what a Q looks like on this computer." You see, this really was a FreeBSD story. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 19:28:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D4137B719 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2E3See16304; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:28:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200103140328.f2E3See16304@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: David Scheidt Cc: dannyman , Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? In-Reply-To: Message from David Scheidt of "Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:06:54 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:28:40 -0600 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > I tried to explain to someone why I used a UNIX > box to read my mail, and not the company normal Outlook. That the user > interface is awful wasn't really the point (pine's sucks pretty hard), > but that I couldn't make the machine do arbitrary things with my mail. > I had a hard time time convincing him this was useful until I showed > him a webpage that showed some interesting stats on it. I built it > with a makefile, which ran a script to grab some data from a database, > process it, and update the webpages with it. The kicker: it was run by > procmail, and got kicked off by regular mail message that had updated > data in it. He was unable to suggest a way to get a windows box do the > same thing, particularly one that didn't cost a cent. Showing people > things like that often generates a "Wow, I didn't reallize I could make > a computer do that for me!" response. Did something like that at a previous employer using FreeBSD 2.2.8. Happen to know that machine is still chugging away just the way I left it. Anyway, the task was to turn an email subscription to Commerce Business Daily into a form that people were used to seeing it. Used slocal to pluck it out of my incoming. Metamail to extract the mime attachment. par and awk to reformat. Zip to compress. Netatalk, Samba, and Apache, to place the data on the company network where others could get to it. And /bin/sh to glue everything together. The NT lovers in the IT department had already proclaimed this an impossible task not worth the effort to automate. I threw most of this together in 4 hours one night. A couple more late night sessions had it working smoothly including procedures for manually pushing one thru. Got a panic call from my ex-employer last year. Machine didn't reboot after a power failure. Turned out the Gateway BIOS lost its mind and decided to boot IDE rather than SCSI. That's all the problems they have had with it. Poor little useless 24MB P-133. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 13 23: 2:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE9937B71B for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treznor@sunflower.com) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA23299 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:02:29 -0600 Message-ID: <000501c0ac53$d490db20$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: Subject: Unix/Linux Socket Programming Reference Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:56:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have recently began my journey into the Unix/Linux (I run FreeBSD, roommate runs Slackware 7.0) programming. I found a great book covering ANSI C89-C99/C++ book "C/C++ Programmer's Reference". I really enjoy this book for it's layout. The first half is a quick walkthrough of ideaology and terminology of programming with C/C++. It establishes a concept then builds upon the concept. However, the primary reason I bought the book was the [seemingly] complete standard library function list. It goes through the standard libriaries for C89, C99 and C++ and explains each function and macro. I'm sure it skips some here and there, but it would be hard to find where. I find this book absolutely wonderful. In the middle of programming, I'll run into a problem, open up the book, and voila, the function needed appears. My question. Is there a good book like this out there for either/both of Unix/Linux and Unix/Linux socket programming? I'm in the process of scanning Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Any input welcomed, Tyler McGeorge, FreeBSD geek extrodinaire. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 2: 9:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C8C37B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:09:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10368; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:09:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313205225.00e27c60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:55:07 -0700 To: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <3AADBFAA.8285DD73@outpost.co.nz> References: <15020.33581.202339.895997@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312224412.04461ca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:35 PM 3/12/2001, Craig Harding wrote: >In that context, I would say that Anon's comments are spot on. I'd go >far as to say that those aforesaid corporate entities could be best >described as a collection of amoral scumbags who will go to any length >to further their own profits at the expense of artists and consumers. I >am more than happy to declare war on these pricks. Unfortunately, you're taking a shotgun approach. There are many "middlemen" in the music industry who are not greedy or amoral. And if you declare war rather than allowing the balance to shift peaceably, it is the good guys who will be caught in the crossfire. >Go read Courtney Love's Salon article again and then tell me we don't >need a revolution. I've read it, and I'll tell you: We don't need a revolution. She showed bad business sense and sold out to a rapacious record label. She shouldn't have. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 2: 9:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1796B37B728 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10381; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:09:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313212002.00e33250@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:22:07 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200103131127.FAA12038@mail-backup.rcsntx.swbell.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312224412.04461ca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:25 AM 3/13/2001, anon@somewhere.net wrote: >Pardon my inaccuracy. I was referring to the large labels, which Craig so >eloquently described as "a collection of amoral scumbags". So, introduce laws that place constraints on music contracts and prevent large businesses from muscling artists around. We have landlord/tenant laws that restrict what leases can demand and what landlords can do to tenants; this situation is no different. There's no need to uproot the system to fix this. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 2: 9:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A60A37B752 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10377; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:09:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:19:52 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , Craig Harding From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15021.56714.10595.213153@guru.mired.org> References: <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:42 AM 3/13/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> Actually, no, King's experiment has gone wrong, and much of the blame >> lies with the specific implementation he devised. Some conspiracy >> theorists have argued that it was designed to fail, but the more likely >> explanation is that he simply doesn't understand the medium. > >I would argue that *nobody* understands the medium yet. That's why the >publishers are scared stupid. They don't understand it, and are >desperately trying to control it in order to preserve their profits. It's not the medium that matters; it's PEOPLE and their behavior toward one another. If King underestimated the amount of illegal copying that would take place, it was because he didn't understand that unethical people like Stallman and Barlow were urging people to steal -- or that this "non-ethic" has become so common on the Internet. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 2: 9:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD3237B756 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10385; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:09:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313212223.00e31d90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:28:10 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <15022.41805.639493.8311@guru.mired.org> References: <15021.56714.10595.213153@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <15021.56714.10595.213153@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:46 PM 3/13/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Here's a different take on Brett's "new peace" http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/17419.html >. To give it away, >the conclusion is that the war is over, the publisers have won, and >it's probably going to be the end of open device interface standards - >which pretty much means the end of any kind of open source OS. Ah, The Register. Gotta love 'em. They're nice folks, but they do have a tendency to print the most inflammatory material they can find and/or cast it in the most outrageous possible light. (Their style is very similar to that of the British tabloids, only they're aimed at a more technical audience and there's no Page 3 girl. ;-) Their site sometimes has good information, but one shouldn't take every bit of their over-the-top "gonzo journalism" seriously. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 2:11:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432C437B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:11:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10373; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:09:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313205518.00e2da30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:16:36 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15021.56450.940181.638227@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312215702.0445f5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312215702.0445f5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:38 AM 3/13/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >So? One of the first things the US did with the constitution was >change it. By adding the Bill of Rights, which conferred explicit rights upon the people. You're proposing to take rights away. >Not only are you once again assuming the solution is what you want it >to be rather than discussing the issue, you're also making a false >claim. You have the right to create copies of your works and give >them away without any copyright laws at all. If there are no copyright laws, I have no right to ask that they not be copied further. I make nothing from my work and have less incentive to create more. That's not good. > You also have the right >to requires those receiving them to adhere to whatever restrictions >you require of them. That's the basis of trade secret protection. Trade secret laws protect information, not specific expressions of ideas. There are other problems with relying on trade secret protection as well. It's very weak, legally. In fact, to obtain such protection, one must generally require recipients to sign ironclad non-disclosure agreements. What's more, if the information "gets out" due to theft, or any action on the part of a party other than the person who signed the NDA, I have little or no recourse. >I already said the creators had the right to control recording a >performance. performance, but that right is *not* granted by title >17. Actually, it is. Creating a fixation of the performance without permission is a violation of copyright. As is doing a performance for profit without compensating the author. >Yup. And when roads became ubiquitous, buggy whip manufacturers >folded. That's what happens when there are major technological >changes. This is a poor analogy. Music, art, prose, etc. are the products, and they are same as they ever were. >> I doubt that libraries will cease to be. > >The librarians don't agree with you. Yes, they do, actually. The director of our local library is heavily involved in the NLA, and we've spoken about this subject. She, like me, is concerned that libraries will be most hurt by the fallout of war between content distributors and content consumers, not by the existence of copyright or copyright laws. >The fundamentals aren't sound - they economic balances which are no >longer true. There is nothing in the fundamental principles that specifies any particular economic balance. >So simply make high bandwidth data connections illegal. That makes >more sense and is violates fewer rights than the existing >practices. Of course, the reality is that high bandwidth data pipes >don't make it impossible to protect those rights. The existence of >publicly available copying equipment makes it impossible to protect >those rights. Publishers gave up trying to enforce it for audio >cassettes, and got a similar compromise with royalties on audio cd's >(which you pay even if your recordings are all fair use or original >material). That's why the publishers aren't trying to simply ban high >bandwidth connections, they are placing technological limits on >peoples ability to make copies, such that I can't, for instance, put >anything better than VCR quality videos of family on DVD-RAMs to share >with my family. This is part of the fallout of the Content War. A large number of people are -- like you -- claiming that there should be no copyright, and many (e.g. the users of Napster, Gnutella, Freenet, etc.) are distributing copies of copyrighted works far and wide without paying for them. The content distributors' response is to act as if there already IS no copyright and restrict content via other means. Had people like Stallman and Barlow not instigated and escalated the war, the publishers would not have felt as if they had no choice but to deploy these "weapons." >This isn't a new thing - it's been going on since the >publishers managed to delay the introduction of DAT tapes to the US >market SCMS is pretty much ineffectual. Any "professional" deck can be set to ignore it, and most consumer decks can be easily hacked to do the same. >while they discussed audio watermarking and other violations of >the public and artists rights. Watermarking isn't a violation of anyone's rights. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 4:16:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C8B37B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 04:16:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C6336239A93; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 04:16:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 04:16:38 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Garrett Wollman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT?] - Central point router Message-ID: <20010314041638.J9369@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <200103131841.SAA10089@mailgate.kechara.net> <200103140235.JAA25550@bazooka.cs.ait.ac.th> <200103140303.WAA43519@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200103140303.WAA43519@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>; from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu on Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:03:48PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-03-13 22:03 -0500, Garrett Wollman wrote: > Am I the only person who saw that subject line and was immediately > reminded of Central Point Software, the company that sold programs > (like ``Copy II PC'') for duplicating copy-protected software? No, because I just got my new Apple IIgs set up. Unfortunately, the SCSI cable from the 10MB external hard drive entered the case and terminated in air. :( The Apple High Speed SCSI cards are going for five times the price of a IIgs on eBay... On the bright side, I tested five of my old 5.25" Apple disks, and all of them worked. I have high hopes for the other 46 or so. Spy Hunter is still fun. There's also a game called "Subnodule" that I just noticed was written by John Romero. No wonder it's so much fun! Garrett--I can probably use Copy ][ Plus to copy itself if you want it. :) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter The best way to accelerate Windows mailto:gsutter@zer0.org is at 9.8 m/s^2. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 5:36:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F1B37B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 05:36:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (dan@wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f2EDaZ215574 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:36:35 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103141336.f2EDaZ215574@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:36:34 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD ISOs/CDs Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The FreeBSD CDs have a "copyright BSDi" on them. I assume this means people can't just copy them. That would be a violation of copyright. However, they can do so with the ISO images. After all, that's what they're there for isn't it? Do the ISOs have a copyright on them? So if someone burns an image from an ISO and sells that, there is no copyright violation. But if someone creates an ISO from an official FreeBSD CD, and then burns a CD from that, they have violated copyright. Correct? -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 5:40:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D3AF637B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 05:40:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 18332 invoked by uid 1001); 14 Mar 2001 13:39:55 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:39:55 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD ISOs/CDs Message-ID: <20010314153955.A17985@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <200103141336.f2EDaZ215574@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200103141336.f2EDaZ215574@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Thu, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:36:34AM +1300 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2001-03-15 (02:36), Dan Langille wrote: > The FreeBSD CDs have a "copyright BSDi" on them. I assume this > means people can't just copy them. That would be a violation of > copyright. However, they can do so with the ISO images. After all, > that's what they're there for isn't it? Do the ISOs have a copyright on > them? > > So if someone burns an image from an ISO and sells that, there is no > copyright violation. But if someone creates an ISO from an official > FreeBSD CD, and then burns a CD from that, they have violated > copyright. > > Correct? As far as I'm aware, BSDi (like WC before them) retain (compilation) copyright on all the ISO layouts, but give out the copy and distribute the first ISO image. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 5:42:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1666337B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 05:42:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (dan@wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f2EDga215670; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:42:36 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103141342.f2EDga215670@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Neil Blakey-Milner Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:42:36 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD ISOs/CDs Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20010314153955.A17985@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <200103141336.f2EDaZ215574@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Thu, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:36:34AM +1300 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Mar 2001, at 15:39, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > As far as I'm aware, BSDi (like WC before them) retain (compilation) > copyright on all the ISO layouts, Understood. > but give out the copy and distribute > the first ISO image. !Understood. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 5:47:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 904E037B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 05:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 18983 invoked by uid 1001); 14 Mar 2001 13:46:55 -0000 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:46:54 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD ISOs/CDs Message-ID: <20010314154654.A18459@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <200103141336.f2EDaZ215574@ns1.unixathome.org>; <20010314153955.A17985@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <200103141342.f2EDga215670@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200103141342.f2EDga215670@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Thu, Mar 15, 2001 at 02:42:36AM +1300 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2001-03-15 (02:42), Dan Langille wrote: > On 14 Mar 2001, at 15:39, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > > As far as I'm aware, BSDi (like WC before them) retain (compilation) > > copyright on all the ISO layouts, > > Understood. > > > but give out the copy and distribute > > the first ISO image. > > !Understood. nbmHat 9.2 starting Monochrome console detected, no 'l33t colours. Starting service: spelling [OK] Starting service: punctuation [OK] Starting service: cool acronyms [OK] Starting service: trademark parenthesis style [OK] Starting service: grammar [FAILED] Uh. Add 'right to' between 'the' and 'copy', and things make slightly more sense. Copyright doesn't mean that others can't do things, just that they can't do things unless you allow them. In this case, the right to use, distribute, and copy the ISO is given. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 6: 1:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273D637B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 06:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f2EE1MT23447; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:01:22 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010314154654.A18459@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <200103141336.f2EDaZ215574@ns1.unixathome.org>; <20010314153955.A17985@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <200103141342.f2EDga215670@ns1.unixathome.org> <20010314154654.A18459@rapier.smartspace.co.za> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:01:18 +0100 To: Neil Blakey-Milner , Dan Langille From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD ISOs/CDs Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:46 PM +0200 3/14/01, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > Uh. Add 'right to' between 'the' and 'copy', and things make slightly > more sense. Copyright doesn't mean that others can't do things, just > that they can't do things unless you allow them. In this case, the > right to use, distribute, and copy the ISO is given. The key point is that this is just for the ISO image of the first disc. The other disks they do not distribute the ISO images for, and reserve the right to make discs from those images for themselves. The first disc is just the OS, while the other discs include all the packages, the full ports subsystem, etc.... So, they make four ISO images, and then explicitly allow the distribution and printing of the first image by anyone who wants to. The other three are restricted and only available from BSDi/WC. -- Brad Knowles, #!/usr/bin/perl -w # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order # Usage: # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 6:22:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E7CB537B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 06:22:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 13323 invoked by uid 100); 14 Mar 2001 14:22:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15023.32422.797683.174502@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:22:30 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313205518.00e2da30@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312215702.0445f5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313205518.00e2da30@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, at this point Brett has stated what he thinks reality is, I've pointed out the sections of the US code that say otherwise, and he's responded by picking nits about how I refer to the code, and repeating his claims, seemingly without checking the references I provided, and definitely without providing references of his own. That means this is a shouting match, not a discussion. This does nothing to help arrive at the peace I am looking for and Brett claims he's looking for, and is a waste of time. types: > At 01:38 AM 3/13/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >So? One of the first things the US did with the constitution was > >change it. > > By adding the Bill of Rights, which conferred explicit rights upon > the people. You're proposing to take rights away. > > >Not only are you once again assuming the solution is what you want it > >to be rather than discussing the issue, you're also making a false > >claim. You have the right to create copies of your works and give > >them away without any copyright laws at all. > > If there are no copyright laws, I have no right to ask that they not > be copied further. I make nothing from my work and have less incentive > to create more. That's not good. > > > You also have the right > >to requires those receiving them to adhere to whatever restrictions > >you require of them. That's the basis of trade secret protection. > > Trade secret laws protect information, not specific expressions of > ideas. > > There are other problems with relying on trade secret protection as > well. It's very weak, legally. In fact, to obtain such protection, > one must generally require recipients to sign ironclad non-disclosure > agreements. What's more, if the information "gets out" due to theft, > or any action on the part of a party other than the person who signed > the NDA, I have little or no recourse. > > >I already said the creators had the right to control recording a > >performance. performance, but that right is *not* granted by title > >17. > > Actually, it is. Creating a fixation of the performance without > permission is a violation of copyright. As is doing a performance > for profit without compensating the author. > > >Yup. And when roads became ubiquitous, buggy whip manufacturers > >folded. That's what happens when there are major technological > >changes. > > This is a poor analogy. Music, art, prose, etc. are the products, > and they are same as they ever were. > > >> I doubt that libraries will cease to be. > > > >The librarians don't agree with you. > > Yes, they do, actually. The director of our local library is > heavily involved in the NLA, and we've spoken about this subject. > She, like me, is concerned that libraries will be most hurt by the > fallout of war between content distributors and content consumers, > not by the existence of copyright or copyright laws. > > >The fundamentals aren't sound - they economic balances which are no > >longer true. > > There is nothing in the fundamental principles that specifies any > particular economic balance. > > >So simply make high bandwidth data connections illegal. That makes > >more sense and is violates fewer rights than the existing > >practices. Of course, the reality is that high bandwidth data pipes > >don't make it impossible to protect those rights. The existence of > >publicly available copying equipment makes it impossible to protect > >those rights. Publishers gave up trying to enforce it for audio > >cassettes, and got a similar compromise with royalties on audio cd's > >(which you pay even if your recordings are all fair use or original > >material). That's why the publishers aren't trying to simply ban high > >bandwidth connections, they are placing technological limits on > >peoples ability to make copies, such that I can't, for instance, put > >anything better than VCR quality videos of family on DVD-RAMs to share > >with my family. > > This is part of the fallout of the Content War. A large number of people > are -- like you -- claiming that there should be no copyright, and many > (e.g. the users of Napster, Gnutella, Freenet, etc.) are distributing > copies of copyrighted works far and wide without paying for them. The > content distributors' response is to act as if there already IS no > copyright and restrict content via other means. Had people like Stallman > and Barlow not instigated and escalated the war, the publishers would not > have felt as if they had no choice but to deploy these "weapons." > > >This isn't a new thing - it's been going on since the > >publishers managed to delay the introduction of DAT tapes to the US > >market > > SCMS is pretty much ineffectual. Any "professional" deck can be set to > ignore it, and most consumer decks can be easily hacked to do the > same. > > >while they discussed audio watermarking and other violations of > >the public and artists rights. > > Watermarking isn't a violation of anyone's rights. > > --Brett > > -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 6:25:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A0D6B37B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 06:25:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 13468 invoked by uid 100); 14 Mar 2001 14:25:12 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15023.32583.954398.211811@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:25:11 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> References: <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 01:42 AM 3/13/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >> Actually, no, King's experiment has gone wrong, and much of the blame > >> lies with the specific implementation he devised. Some conspiracy > >> theorists have argued that it was designed to fail, but the more likely > >> explanation is that he simply doesn't understand the medium. > > > >I would argue that *nobody* understands the medium yet. That's why the > >publishers are scared stupid. They don't understand it, and are > >desperately trying to control it in order to preserve their profits. > > It's not the medium that matters; it's PEOPLE and their behavior toward > one another. If King underestimated the amount of illegal copying that > would take place, it was because he didn't understand that unethical > people like Stallman and Barlow were urging people to steal -- or that > this "non-ethic" has become so common on the Internet. I think you're simply being inflamatory again, but will give you a chance to prove it. Can you provide a pointer to an RMS paper where he encourages people to steal, as opposed to arguing for making the copyright laws recognize the reality of the digital age - or doing away with them, which is the simplest way to do that? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 7:34:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A8A37B718; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:34:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=50ccf7bd7ea42a278b7671d3b6d40956) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14dDH7-0000Rn-00; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:33:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3AAF8F41.59B3F3B@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:33:21 -0700 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Bob Van Valzah , pW , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Racoon Problem & Cisco Tunnel References: <003d01c0ac50$ec379280$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Thanks! > > It's not really a religious war, because there's valid reasons > to move to IPv6 and I think it's obvious that ultimately the > Internet is going to have to go there. But, what the engineers > don't understand is that this is a political problem, not a > technical problem. No, it's both. Proactive organizations should be implementing both early rather than late, and anyone selecting network infrastructure equipment at this time should be buying equipment that is IPv4 and IPv6 capable. > Take some of those large corporations, like SquishySoft, that > have entire class A's assigned to them, but firewall the entire > address space off from the public Internet, and only allow > incoming connections to perhaps 100 of them. Would you like > to be the CEO of Squishy when the papers start rolling the story > of how this company's completely unjustified hanging-on of this > block is preventing another 16 million people from being brought > on to the Internet? Yes, I certainly would. That's a business asset, and a quite valuable one. I have a portable class C that I'm not using at the moment because my ISP, dunderheads that they are, charge 4x the price of the connection to route a class C. If anyone wants to buy this lovely address, bidding starts at $50,000. ;^) Replies directed to -chat. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 7:46:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B8137B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:46:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA92840 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:46:28 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:46:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Racoon Problem & Cisco Tunnel In-Reply-To: <3AAF8F41.59B3F3B@softweyr.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Wes Peters wrote: > Yes, I certainly would. That's a business asset, and a quite valuable > one. I have a portable class C that I'm not using at the moment because > my ISP, dunderheads that they are, charge 4x the price of the connection > to route a class C. If anyone wants to buy this lovely address, bidding > starts at $50,000. ;^) What about tunnelling of the Class C from a "friendly" router? (I.e.: one owned by a friend of yours, etc.) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 9:57:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE3737B718; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:57:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15390; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:57:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25247; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:57:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15023.45292.816426.881246@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:57:00 -0700 (MST) To: Mike Smith Cc: "Kenneth D. Merry" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Usenix 2000 Photos In-Reply-To: <200103140706.f2E76wn02303@mass.dis.org> References: <20010313235635.A94257@panzer.kdm.org> <200103140706.f2E76wn02303@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moved to -chat ] > > > > > http://www.ehlo.com/~james/usenix_2000/DSC00447.JPG > > > > > > > > > > Is *not* a member of core. Not enough nominations during the last vote 8-) > > > > > > > > Maybe if you put some blue hair on it.... *duck* > > > > > > It's a rhinoceros, not a duck. Yeesh, don't they teach you 'merkins > > > *anything* in school? > > > > > > 8) > > > > I think it's a hippopotamus. > > You, sir, are no fun. > > And you probably watch far too much Discovery Channel. Is it possible to watch *too* much Discovery Channel? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 10:32:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D65337B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:32:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f2EIW6G30200; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:32:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:32:06 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Socket Programming Reference Message-ID: <20010314103206.A25733@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <000501c0ac53$d490db20$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="17pEHd4RhPHOinZp" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000501c0ac53$d490db20$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org>; from treznor@sunflower.com on Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:56:01AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:56:01AM -0600, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > My question. Is there a good book like this out there for either/both of > Unix/Linux and Unix/Linux socket programming? Unix Network Programing 2nd ed, Volume 1 by Richard Stevens --- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6r7kmXY6L6fI4GtQRApc/AJoCBfOoH2aJzDU3i0LeedfNe88vcACfUMrU CcqLZRGmaOmPpSn57a1j5h4= =QYAr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 12:25:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9071237B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:25:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15589; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:24:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132117.04aa3ad0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:24:48 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15023.32422.797683.174502@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313205518.00e2da30@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312215702.0445f5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313205518.00e2da30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:22 AM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Ok, at this point Brett has stated what he thinks reality is, I've >pointed out the sections of the US code that say otherwise, No; you've made vague, hand waving references to them that do not cite specific language and ignore case law. The balance that existed prior to the rise of the Internet was quite intricate and requires study to understand. I can point you to some good texts if you're interested in actually learning about the subject matter. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 12:30: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78A737B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15651; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:29:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:29:51 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15023.32583.954398.211811@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:25 AM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >I think you're simply being inflamatory again, but will give you a >chance to prove it. Can you provide a pointer to an RMS paper where he >encourages people to steal, Sure! Right from the horse's mouth: "Publishers often refer to prohibited copying as "piracy." In this way, they imply that illegal copying is ethically equivalent to attacking ships on the high seas, kidnaping and murdering the people on them. If you don't believe that illegal copying is just like kidnaping and murder, you might prefer not to use the word "piracy" to describe it. Neutral terms such as "prohibited copying" or "unauthorized copying" are available for use instead. Some of us might even prefer to use a positive term such as "sharing information with your neighbor." Richard Stallman There are other examples, too, but this was the one that was within easy reach. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 13:44:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE8F37B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA56811; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:44:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Garrett Wollman Cc: Olivier Nicole , lee@kechara.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT?] - Central point router References: <200103131841.SAA10089@mailgate.kechara.net> <200103140235.JAA25550@bazooka.cs.ait.ac.th> <200103140303.WAA43519@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Mar 2001 22:44:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: Garrett Wollman's message of "Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:03:48 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garrett Wollman writes: > Am I the only person who saw that subject line and was immediately > reminded of Central Point Software, the company that sold programs > (like ``Copy II PC'') for duplicating copy-protected software? The graduated to writing system diagnostics & repair software (kinda like Norton Utilities); I think they also wrote Backup Exec (a backup utility that practically every tape streamer manufacturer distributed under their own name, and which ended its life as Microsoft Backup) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 13:48: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5E337B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:47:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA56833; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:47:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brooks Davis Cc: Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Socket Programming Reference References: <000501c0ac53$d490db20$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010314103206.A25733@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Mar 2001 22:47:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brooks Davis's message of "Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:32:06 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brooks Davis writes: > On Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 12:56:01AM -0600, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > > My question. Is there a good book like this out there for either/both of > > Unix/Linux and Unix/Linux socket programming? > Unix Network Programing 2nd ed, Volume 1 by Richard Stevens You'll probably also want _Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment_ by the same author. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 14:55: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A2C37B73A for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iain@research.canon.com.au) Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (bellmann.research.canon.com.au [10.5.0.3]) by kwanon.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D75AA4B21; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:06:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [203.12.174.253]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7588B10; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:44:45 +1100 (EST) Received: from blow.research.canon.com.au (blow.research.canon.com.au [10.8.1.4]) by elph.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E231E3C1; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:54:44 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:54:51 +1100 (EST) From: Iain Templeton Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disk I/O problem in 4.3-BETA In-Reply-To: <20010312151315.F18351@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: [redirected to -chat, hopefully] > > It's actually worse. Someone, I forget who, ran some tests with > > write-caching turned on and found that the IDE drive could hold a > > pending write in its cache 'forever', even in the face of other writes, > > as long as there was other disk activity going on. So we aren't just > > talking about issuing I/O's out of order, we are talking about issuing > > a sequence of writes and having some of them simply not ever commiting > > to disk (not for a long, long time) in a heavily loaded environment. > > That's bad news. > > Someone leaked the Linux austrailian elevator algorithm to the disk > manufacturers? > As an elevator user in Australia I'm intrigued by this comment? I know our elevators at work can play up ("No I said up to the 5th, not down to B1!"). Iain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 15:12:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D593937B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:12:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 25922 invoked by uid 100); 14 Mar 2001 23:12:29 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15023.64221.816845.288787@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:12:29 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132117.04aa3ad0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313205518.00e2da30@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312215702.0445f5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311193801.0441d3c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132117.04aa3ad0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 07:22 AM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Ok, at this point Brett has stated what he thinks reality is, I've > >pointed out the sections of the US code that say otherwise, > No; you've made vague, hand waving references to them that do not > cite specific language and ignore case law. The balance that > existed prior to the rise of the Internet was quite intricate and > requires study to understand. I can point you to some good texts > if you're interested in actually learning about the subject matter. Since you consider citing specific section and paragraph numbes a "vague, hand waving reference", I'm sure you consider mentioning that some books exist as a precise reference that proves your point. Please go shout at someone else. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 15:14: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 89B1137B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 26038 invoked by uid 100); 14 Mar 2001 23:13:57 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15023.64309.798752.556764@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:13:57 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 07:25 AM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >I think you're simply being inflamatory again, but will give you a > >chance to prove it. Can you provide a pointer to an RMS paper where he > >encourages people to steal, > > Sure! Right from the horse's mouth: > > "Publishers often refer to prohibited copying as "piracy." In this > way, they imply that illegal copying is ethically equivalent to > attacking ships on the high seas, kidnaping and murdering the people > on them. > > If you don't believe that illegal copying is just like kidnaping and > murder, you might prefer not to use the word "piracy" to describe it. > Neutral terms such as "prohibited copying" or "unauthorized copying" > are available for use instead. Some of us might even prefer to use a > positive term such as "sharing information with your neighbor." > > Richard Stallman > > There are other examples, too, but this was the one that was within > easy reach. I don't see him encouraging people to copy things illegally, I see him providing using less inflamatory language to describe it. Try again. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 15:43:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B0F37B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:43:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id f2ENhN013472 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:43:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:43:23 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disk I/O problem in 4.3-BETA Message-ID: <20010314154323.O29888@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20010312151315.F18351@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from iain@research.canon.com.au on Thu, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:54:51AM +1100 X-all-your-base: are belong to us. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Iain Templeton [010314 14:54] wrote: > On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > [redirected to -chat, hopefully] > > > > It's actually worse. Someone, I forget who, ran some tests with > > > write-caching turned on and found that the IDE drive could hold a > > > pending write in its cache 'forever', even in the face of other writes, > > > as long as there was other disk activity going on. So we aren't just > > > talking about issuing I/O's out of order, we are talking about issuing > > > a sequence of writes and having some of them simply not ever commiting > > > to disk (not for a long, long time) in a heavily loaded environment. > > > That's bad news. > > > > Someone leaked the Linux austrailian elevator algorithm to the disk > > manufacturers? > > > As an elevator user in Australia I'm intrigued by this comment? Just picking.. :) > > I know our elevators at work can play up ("No I said up to the 5th, not > down to B1!"). It's a common starvation problem. Imagine an elevator that always goes to the nearest requested floor instead of making almost complete up then down sweeps. At quit time there's a good chance you'll never hit the lobby because the elevator keeps going to the nearest floor which is unlikely to be the lobby once it gets high up enough. Matt explained that Linux had this "feature" to reduce disk seeking for a short period, finally someone with algorithm experience stood up and smacked enough people around such that it got changed to the proper elevator algorithm. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 15:58: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC0BC37B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:57:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 27127 invoked by uid 100); 14 Mar 2001 23:57:55 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15024.1411.79596.364926@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:57:55 -0600 To: "Andrew C. Hornback" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, tedm@toybox.placo.com Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) In-Reply-To: <46214260@toto.iv> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Redirected from -questions.] Andrew C. Hornback types: > > >also remember working with snow white and the seven dwarfs, and > > >already knew that interoperability was something you got > > in a computer > > >line, at least until the manufacturer decided to play > > shell games to > > >kill the third party hardware market. > Hmm... shall we say, IBM here? Just how many manufacturers adopted > MCA? IBM, Tandy did a couple of machines with it ('course, Tandy > always followed IBM's lead with strange hardware designs... Tandy 1000 > SX followed the PC jr., need I say more?). I believe Siemens, > Northridge, and possibly Fujitsu produced machines with MCA support. Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of IBM moving the controller smarts from the system box into the drive in the 360/370 line. A federal judge told them their near-monopoly position made that an anticompetitive practice, and hence illegal. The other case that comes to mind was their adding instructions for an OS release to prevent Amdahl from using the OS release directly. Amdahl's response was to provide a version of the OS with the "new" instructions unrolled inline. I'd call that Open Source software at it's best, but I don't know that it met the current definition for Open Source. > > I don't remember if there was a lot of crossover between > > the mainframe and > > PC people back then - I think the markets were pretty > > foreign to each > > other. > There never really was a crossover. There may not have been a crossover of manufacturers, but there was pretty clearly a customer migration. I watched it happen - and my career followed, going from big iron to minis to desktop workstations. So far I've managed to avoid anything that looks like MS OS support, and have no plans at all to change *that*. The original comment was about standardization and the PC market. Most of the people playing with PC hardware I knew in the early days had done the migration. They took incomparability between manfacturers as a given, and they didn't push for any kind of standardization. > Gotta look at the big mainframe producers and see where they are > now. Where's Cray? Last I heard they were part of SGI, who was > also going in the tank over their line of NT based workstations > (what the hell were THEY thinking?). IBM's Mainframe > business... how many ES/9000s do you see being sold each year? > They've moved to the AS/400 and RS/6000 lines. And Digital? Now a > division of Compaq, simply because Compaq couldn't build a high end > machine to save their life and didn't know what good customer > support was. Then there was Unisys and their Clearpath line, which > may still exist, not really sure. But I know they've cut out their > consumer PC division, and used a lot of resources to build the new > high end servers that have CMP technology. What about Data General, > or Wang, or ... Yup - if your customers migrate and you're not selling where they're going, you're going to be in trouble. > The mainframe is getting to be like a classic car from the 50s. Nice > to look at, the new generation Oohs and Aahs over it, but no one > really wants to touch it for fear of breaking it and no one wants to > support it any more due to the costs of replacement parts, etc. (not > that mainframe parts were ever cheap...) Actually, mainframe replacements aren't very expensive any more. You don't buy mainframe, you buy a stock Wintel box with a 3081 - or whatever - on a card, and run your legacy (industry jargon for "working") systems on that. > Which reminds me... has anyone seen the new Intel vision of what a > consumer PC is going to be? It's basically a stack of boxes, like an > Aztec temple, each one holding a component or two. Foundational box > holding the motherboard, processor and memory. Next step up holding > the DVD-RAM drive, followed up the next steps containing the HDD, the > other removable media drive (looked like a Zip drive), and the top > being the control and I/O panel with all of the ports on top. Gone > are your PS/2 ports for mouse and keyboard, replaced by USB. Gone are > your serial and parallel ports, replaced by USB. Ok - what's the drive interconnect? Are they actually running IDE to external boxes? > This is what they want the PC to be once the IA-64 hits mainstream. > Which basically means that when the Itanium gets out there and into > the hands of more than the technophiles, nearly everything that we > have now is going to be obsolete. Actually, it all already is, in the sense that you can buy newer/faster/better hardware. For instance, I moved my primary printer (an LJ5M) to USB to attach an old color printer, and the I/O numbers on the postscript benchmark went through the roof. I assume that if I had a real USB printer, it'd be even better. So if I replace the antique color printer that's on the parallel port, I'm going to buy USB, and disable the parallel port in the BIOS. > Thank you Intel! Have you forgotten that Apple has already done that - and apparently survived? Personally, I like going to USB for that stuff, as it frees up IRQs, which are a precious commodity. I'll be replacing my ISA hardware with USB by attrition, though. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 16: 1:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3008637B71A for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 27277 invoked by uid 100); 15 Mar 2001 00:01:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15024.1640.544526.101490@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:01:44 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: hornback@wireco.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) In-Reply-To: <95078711@toto.iv> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Redirected from -questions.] Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Andrew C. > > This is what they want the PC to be once the IA-64 hits mainstream. > >Which basically means that when the Itanium gets out there and into > >the hands of more than the technophiles, nearly everything that we > >have now is going to be obsolete. > I really doubt it. I think your going to see the motherboard and CPU > change but it will still go into the same case, take the same peripherals, > and same ram, and all that. Probably it will spawn a lot of hand-wringing > about how the "rest of the system" is holding back the power of the > IA-64. Which sounds like it will parallel the x86 line growing up. The best line I remember from that era was something like "The x86 performs very well in a well-designed platform. Now, if only you could buy an x86 architecture other than IBM-PC clones off the shelf." http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 17: 0:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F57637B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:00:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18418; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:00:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:00:04 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15023.64309.798752.556764@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:13 PM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >I don't see him encouraging people to copy things illegally, I see him >providing using less inflamatory language to describe it. The original version of the essay was more strident about advocating piracy. Richard toned it down after being warned that stongly urging people to commit crimes was not a wise move. So, he began to exhort people to "share" and "help your neighbor." Of course, these are nothing more than code phrases for piracy, which Stallman actively advocates in forums that he considers to be friendly to the idea. Some other choice quotes: "Note that the GNU Project recommends avoiding the term piracy since it implies sharing copies is somehow illegitimate." "One basis for society is that of helping your neighbor -- but in the software world this is piracy." Stallman believes that the end justifies the means. He will stop at nothing, no matter how unethical, to hurt the fortunes of programmers who seek to make money from their work. He is even willing to be hypocritical -- that's what the GPL is about. It makes software very unfree, yet he -- in unabashed Doublespeak -- calls software licensed under it "Free Software" (note the dogmatic capital letters). --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 17:17: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C8D2D37B722 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:16:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 29511 invoked by uid 100); 15 Mar 2001 01:16:55 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15024.6151.615093.266438@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:16:55 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 04:13 PM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >I don't see him encouraging people to copy things illegally, I see him > >providing using less inflamatory language to describe it. > The original version of the essay was more strident about advocating > piracy. Richard toned it down after being warned that stongly urging > people to commit crimes was not a wise move. So, he began to exhort > people to "share" and "help your neighbor." Of course, these are > nothing more than code phrases for piracy, which Stallman actively > advocates in forums that he considers to be friendly to the idea. > Some other choice quotes: You didn't save a copy, did you? > "Note that the GNU Project recommends avoiding the term piracy since it > implies sharing copies is somehow illegitimate." > > "One basis for society is that of helping your neighbor -- but in the > software world this is piracy." > > Stallman believes that the end justifies the means. He will stop > at nothing, no matter how unethical, to hurt the fortunes of programmers > who seek to make money from their work. Claiming that those two quotes imply that Stallman advocates stealing is akin to claiming that publishers advocate capital punishment for software piracy because piracy is - or at least used to be - a capital crime. [Refusing to be by yet another irrelevant attack on RMS.] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 17:30: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7CB37B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18696; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:29:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:29:45 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15024.6151.615093.266438@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:16 PM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >You didn't save a copy, did you? Quoting is fair use. >Claiming that those two quotes imply that Stallman advocates stealing >is akin to claiming that publishers advocate capital punishment for >software piracy because piracy is - or at least used to be - a capital >crime. Stallman does advocate stealing. (The most blatant case I've seen was during a session at the Fall 1999 LinuxWorld in San Jose). In his propaganda, he calls it "sharing," of course. --Brett Glass "Plagiarize.... Don't let another's work evade your eyes.... Remember why the good Lord made your eyes, so plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize.... But always remember please to call it 'Research.'" -- Tom Lehrer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 17:33:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 524DA37B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 30025 invoked by uid 100); 15 Mar 2001 01:33:21 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15024.7137.97293.890055@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:33:21 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 06:16 PM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Claiming that those two quotes imply that Stallman advocates stealing > >is akin to claiming that publishers advocate capital punishment for > >software piracy because piracy is - or at least used to be - a capital > >crime. > > Stallman does advocate stealing. (The most blatant case I've > seen was during a session at the Fall 1999 LinuxWorld in San > Jose). In his propaganda, he calls it "sharing," of course. He encourages other people to share. He provides a license they can use to share their software. If this is advocating theft, so is what publishers do. Only the call it "selling". http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 17:44:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A8937B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:44:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA30426; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:44:49 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:44:49 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disk I/O problem in 4.3-BETA In-Reply-To: <20010314154323.O29888@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: :* Iain Templeton [010314 14:54] wrote: :> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: :It's a common starvation problem. : :Imagine an elevator that always goes to the nearest requested floor :instead of making almost complete up then down sweeps. : :At quit time there's a good chance you'll never hit the lobby :because the elevator keeps going to the nearest floor which is :unlikely to be the lobby once it gets high up enough. : :Matt explained that Linux had this "feature" to reduce disk seeking :for a short period, finally someone with algorithm experience stood :up and smacked enough people around such that it got changed to :the proper elevator algorithm. HP introduced this problem (I think it was somewhat subtler than the way you've laid it out, though) into HP/UX 10.20 at some point. It meant that ls would take minutes(!!) to produce output on one of the boxes I ran, if it was being pounded on in a certain way. It's been fixed for a long time, though. Daivd -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 17:56:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D38437B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:56:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18956; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:56:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:56:15 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15024.7137.97293.890055@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:33 PM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >He encourages other people to share. He encourages other people to steal. >He provides a license they can >use to share their software. He provides a license which is designed to destroy programmers' livelihoods by NOT sharing it with them -- while at the same time making it free to their customers. This is a predatory practice no more ethical than what Microsoft did to Netscape. >If this is advocating theft, so is what >publishers do. Only the call it "selling". It appears that you wish to justify stealing by calling the victim a thief... without justification. Nor would two wrongs make a right in any case. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 18:21: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C93C337B71A for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:21:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 31519 invoked by uid 100); 15 Mar 2001 02:21:05 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15024.10001.392144.544860@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:21:05 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 06:33 PM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > It appears that you wish to justify stealing by calling > the victim a thief... without justification. Nor would two > wrongs make a right in any case. It appears that you want to justify your turning Stallman into a boogeyman by calling him a thief - without justification. These two wrongs don't make a right either. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 18:35:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from edwin.mounet.com (edwin.mounet.com [216.145.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7FAE37B71A for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:35:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hornback@wireco.net) Received: (qmail 8642 invoked by uid 0); 15 Mar 2001 02:20:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle) (216.145.70.75) by mounet.com with SMTP; 15 Mar 2001 02:20:20 -0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: Subject: RE: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:34:56 -0500 Message-ID: <02d501c0acf8$86240bb0$0f00000a@eagle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <15024.1640.544526.101490@guru.mired.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 7:02 PM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: hornback@wireco.net; chat@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux > (More Questions!) > > [Redirected from -questions.] > > Ted Mittelstaedt types: > > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of > Andrew C. > > > This is what they want the PC to be once the IA-64 > hits mainstream. > > >Which basically means that when the Itanium gets out > there and into > > >the hands of more than the technophiles, nearly > everything that we > > >have now is going to be obsolete. > > I really doubt it. I think your going to see the > motherboard and CPU > > change but it will still go into the same case, take the > same peripherals, > > and same ram, and all that. Probably it will spawn a lot > of hand-wringing > > about how the "rest of the system" is holding back the > power of the > > IA-64. > > Which sounds like it will parallel the x86 line growing up. The best > line I remember from that era was something like "The x86 performs > very well in a well-designed platform. Now, if only you could buy an > x86 architecture other than IBM-PC clones off the shelf." Back in the late 80s/early 90s, didn't Apricot (UK) do this with the 386 and 486 based systems they produced? Also, wasn't NetFrame (now Micron's server division) working on something similar? Using one x86 processor for the system and another x86 for I/O functions? --- Andy (CC any replies to me, as I'm not on -chat list, thank you.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 18:35:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from edwin.mounet.com (edwin.mounet.com [216.145.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B1E2437B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:35:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hornback@wireco.net) Received: (qmail 8624 invoked by uid 0); 15 Mar 2001 02:20:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle) (216.145.70.75) by mounet.com with SMTP; 15 Mar 2001 02:20:15 -0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: Subject: RE: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:34:51 -0500 Message-ID: <02d401c0acf8$833e77f0$0f00000a@eagle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <15024.1411.79596.364926@guru.mired.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 6:58 PM > To: Andrew C. Hornback > Cc: chat@freebsd.org; tedm@toybox.placo.com > Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux > (More Questions!) > > [Redirected from -questions.] > > Andrew C. Hornback types: > > > >also remember working with snow white and the seven dwarfs, and > > > >already knew that interoperability was something you got > > > in a computer > > > >line, at least until the manufacturer decided to play > > > shell games to > > > >kill the third party hardware market. > > Hmm... shall we say, IBM here? Just how many > manufacturers adopted > > MCA? IBM, Tandy did a couple of machines with it ('course, Tandy > > always followed IBM's lead with strange hardware > designs... Tandy 1000 > > SX followed the PC jr., need I say more?). I believe Siemens, > > Northridge, and possibly Fujitsu produced machines with > MCA support. > > Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of IBM moving the > controller smarts from the system box into the drive in the 360/370 > line. A federal judge told them their near-monopoly > position made that > an anticompetitive practice, and hence illegal. The other case that > comes to mind was their adding instructions for an OS release to > prevent Amdahl from using the OS release directly. Amdahl's response > was to provide a version of the OS with the "new" instructions > unrolled inline. I'd call that Open Source software at it's > best, but > I don't know that it met the current definition for Open Source. Egads... someone's showing their age... or am I showing my lack thereof? I don't remember this... but it sounds like it was from the late 70s/early 80s. Heck, I barely remember Amdahls at all... I've only seen pictures of 'em, as far as I know. *grins* > > > I don't remember if there was a lot of crossover between > > > the mainframe and > > > PC people back then - I think the markets were pretty > > > foreign to each > > > other. > > There never really was a crossover. > > There may not have been a crossover of manufacturers, but there was > pretty clearly a customer migration. I watched it happen - and my > career followed, going from big iron to minis to desktop > workstations. So far I've managed to avoid anything that > looks like MS > OS support, and have no plans at all to change *that*. In the installations that I've seen, the move was from 'frames to client/server. Sign of the times, the colleges that I went to just decomissioned their ES/9000 and Vax installations in the past couple of years. To make matters worse, both institutions are stuck with thier old big iron until the next remodel of the buildings come along. Seems that in the last remodel at each facility, someone figured that the big computer would be there for years upon years, and they did the remodel in a manner that wouldn't allow either machine to leave the premises. > The original comment was about standardization and the PC market. > Most of the people playing with PC hardware I knew in the early days > had done the migration. They took incomparability between > manfacturers > as a given, and they didn't push for any kind of standardization. *gets a feeling that "back in the early days" refers to back when the closest he got to a PC was watching IBM sponsor Face the Nation on CBS on Sunday mornings...* I'm out of my tree here, probably, since I've only been working with PCs for about 16 years... and back then, it was a Timex/Sinclair 1000 with the 2k RAM pack and interpreted BASIC... *Grins* > > Gotta look at the big mainframe producers and see where they are > > now. Where's Cray? Last I heard they were part of SGI, who was > > also going in the tank over their line of NT based workstations > > (what the hell were THEY thinking?). IBM's Mainframe > > business... how many ES/9000s do you see being sold each year? > > They've moved to the AS/400 and RS/6000 lines. And > Digital? Now a > > division of Compaq, simply because Compaq couldn't build > a high end > > machine to save their life and didn't know what good customer > > support was. Then there was Unisys and their Clearpath > line, which > > may still exist, not really sure. But I know they've cut > out their > > consumer PC division, and used a lot of resources to build the new > > high end servers that have CMP technology. What about > Data General, > > or Wang, or ... > > Yup - if your customers migrate and you're not selling where they're > going, you're going to be in trouble. It's kind of sad, seeing the big iron makers get bought up. Their technical excellence gets strewn about, bastardized and implemented in a corporate environment before integrated into a new chassis with a familiar label that doesn't do them justice. As an example, just look at what Gateway did to my favorite server manufacturer, ALR. 'nuff said. > > The mainframe is getting to be like a classic car > from the 50s. Nice > > to look at, the new generation Oohs and Aahs over it, but no one > > really wants to touch it for fear of breaking it and no > one wants to > > support it any more due to the costs of replacement > parts, etc. (not > > that mainframe parts were ever cheap...) > > Actually, mainframe replacements aren't very expensive any more. You > don't buy mainframe, you buy a stock Wintel box with a 3081 - or > whatever - on a card, and run your legacy (industry jargon for > "working") systems on that. I've never seen anything like that, although, I'd be interested in finding vendors of these sorts of pieces. In the back of my mind, I have a sort of Frankenstein project of taking an old Intel based server and adding a Sparc emulator card, an Alpha emulator card, etc, etc. and hopefully get to the point where I have each slot filled with a different type of processor, just to see if it can be done. 'course, I'm also building a 6X6... *evil grin* > > Which reminds me... has anyone seen the new Intel > vision of what a > > consumer PC is going to be? It's basically a stack of > boxes, like an > > Aztec temple, each one holding a component or two. > Foundational box > > holding the motherboard, processor and memory. Next step > up holding > > the DVD-RAM drive, followed up the next steps containing > the HDD, the > > other removable media drive (looked like a Zip drive), and the top > > being the control and I/O panel with all of the ports on > top. Gone > > are your PS/2 ports for mouse and keyboard, replaced by > USB. Gone are > > your serial and parallel ports, replaced by USB. > > Ok - what's the drive interconnect? Are they actually running IDE to > external boxes? They're using USB to interconnect the drive hardware, and since you can just add on USB devices whenever and have up to 127 possible devices per USB chain... they think that'll make for all the expandability you'll ever need... > > This is what they want the PC to be once the IA-64 > hits mainstream. > > Which basically means that when the Itanium gets out > there and into > > the hands of more than the technophiles, nearly everything that we > > have now is going to be obsolete. > > Actually, it all already is, in the sense that you can buy > newer/faster/better hardware. Newer/Faster/Better isn't always the case. Intel's 8xx motherboard fiascos and the introduction of RIMMs... need I say more? > For instance, I moved my > primary printer > (an LJ5M) to USB to attach an old color printer, and the I/O numbers > on the postscript benchmark went through the roof. I assume > that if I > had a real USB printer, it'd be even better. So if I replace the > antique color printer that's on the parallel port, I'm going to buy > USB, and disable the parallel port in the BIOS. *nods in agreement* Some new things are good... USB, higher speed SCSI, higher speed drives, memory, RAM, etc. But, there are always "innovations" that crater the runway like a Paveway II. > > Thank you Intel! > > Have you forgotten that Apple has already done that - and apparently > survived? Hmm... comparing the world's largest CPU manufacturer to a company that's dropping like a stone and has only been propped up by a large infusion of cash from Microsoft and Pixar in addition to the production of some nice workstations made of cheap plastic... I don't think we're talking apples to apples here. > Personally, I like going to USB for that stuff, > as it frees > up IRQs, which are a precious commodity. I'll be replacing my ISA > hardware with USB by attrition, though. I guess I'm more "old school" when it comes to things like that. 'course, that's probably based on the fact that now I can "play" with the hardware that I always wanted as a kid but never could afford... --- Andy (CC any replies to me, as I'm not on -chat list, thank you.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 18:39:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5FA837B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:39:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010315023911.FUHU10024.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:39:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3AB02B59.3CEFCF52@home.com> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:39:21 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: dannyman , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? References: <200103140308.f2E37ve16140@grumpy.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > dannyman writes: > > On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 09:29:37PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > > [...] > > > Put MacOS X on it two weeks from now. It should have a pretty enough > > > interface to keep him amused. And a solid foundation underneath. > > > > > > My brother started his kids early. They could type before they could > > > talk. About 8 years old now and still not programming. But for the last > > > couple of years they have been "writing books." They write the darndest > > > things which almost make sense. Much like in the moments before waking > > > when dreams almost make sense. > > > > I'm no parent, but I like this answer best - MacOS X is probably good (like > > the Amiga I cut my teeth on) where you get a cuddly GUI but over the years you > > roll up sleeves more often to get down and dirty. > > > > But the real answer is that "maybe the kid don't want to code, but he'll find > > something else cool to do." You sure he wants to grow up to be a l33t h4XX0R? > > Maybe he is interested in writing, or art, or music ... Mac is a good platform > > for this, as far as I can tell. Go for OS X. Linux is not yet a good > > plaything for a youngster looking to find his interest. > > Come to think of it, I did get my brother's twins started on FreeBSD > only a little bit after they started on the Mac. One Christmas I hauled > my 386sx16 4MB luggable (bigger than a laptop, smaller than an Osborne, > has an old version of FreeBSD on it) out there. Kids spotted it and > recognized a keyboard. Only keyboard they saw at their Grandma's house. > And asked if they could type on it. Up to that time that was the most I > had heard them talk when one said "type?" and pointed. > > Am not exactly sure but believe I turned these 4 year olds loose in vi. > Only had to be told once, "type v i enter and hit i again to start > typing." They didn't learn editing. Didn't know it but they didn't want > to pound. They wanted to type the alphabet. Funny, they didn't like what > the letter "q" looked like so they'd get that far, decide it was a > mistake, hit return and start over. Five or six times before somebody > noticed and explained, "that's what a Q looks like on this computer." > > You see, this really was a FreeBSD story. :-) > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. Would be interesting to take twins, start one on VI and the other on Emacs, then see how they turned out 20 years later :) Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 18:51:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEB937B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id f2F2pPR19318; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:51:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:51:25 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: David Scheidt Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disk I/O problem in 4.3-BETA Message-ID: <20010314185125.T29888@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20010314154323.O29888@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@tumbolia.com on Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 07:44:49PM -0600 X-all-your-base: are belong to us. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * David Scheidt [010314 17:44] wrote: > On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > :* Iain Templeton [010314 14:54] wrote: > :> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > :It's a common starvation problem. > : > :Imagine an elevator that always goes to the nearest requested floor > :instead of making almost complete up then down sweeps. > : > :At quit time there's a good chance you'll never hit the lobby > :because the elevator keeps going to the nearest floor which is > :unlikely to be the lobby once it gets high up enough. > : > :Matt explained that Linux had this "feature" to reduce disk seeking > :for a short period, finally someone with algorithm experience stood > :up and smacked enough people around such that it got changed to > :the proper elevator algorithm. > > HP introduced this problem (I think it was somewhat subtler than the way > you've laid it out, though) into HP/UX 10.20 at some point. It meant that > ls would take minutes(!!) to produce output on one of the boxes I ran, if > it was being pounded on in a certain way. It's been fixed for a long time, > though. That's really funny, about 4-5 years ago I talked to someone who had just finished interviewing a potential candidate who had been working in the HPUX devel team (i think). And talked about a "a weird problem when we have lots of IO". Does that even come close to the same time period? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 19:12:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4C837B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:12:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00851 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:12:24 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:11:35 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: Disk I/O problem in 4.3-BETA In-Reply-To: <20010314185125.T29888@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: : :That's really funny, about 4-5 years ago I talked to someone who :had just finished interviewing a potential candidate who had been :working in the HPUX devel team (i think). And talked about a :"a weird problem when we have lots of IO". : :Does that even come close to the same time period? It was more recent than that. There have been other IO problems, some of them truely bizarre. Things like certain SCSI busses getting a lowered priority based on what was installed on different HP-PA bus. ( I don't know the details of that one, it was given as the reason a machine had a goofy device layout) Something like that would only show up if the PA bus were close to being saturated, which would be a weird problem when you had lots of IO. Of course, this being HPUX, they might have had the same bug more than once. (It's a one time thing, it just happens a lot..., indeed) -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 19:14:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E7C737B733 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:14:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f2F3Drn04210; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA20782; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:13:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20778; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:13:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:13:51 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@z.glue.umd.edu To: Rob Cc: David Kelly , dannyman , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? In-Reply-To: <3AB02B59.3CEFCF52@home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Rob wrote: > Would be interesting to take twins, start one on VI and the other on > Emacs, then see how they turned out 20 years later :) Rob. At the same time, one of them should spend his entire life on a motorcycle at 80 miles an hour. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 19:53: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DF1237B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 33772 invoked by uid 100); 15 Mar 2001 03:52:59 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15024.15515.195623.598446@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:52:59 -0600 To: "Andrew C. Hornback" Cc: Subject: RE: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) In-Reply-To: <02d401c0acf8$833e77f0$0f00000a@eagle> References: <15024.1411.79596.364926@guru.mired.org> <02d401c0acf8$833e77f0$0f00000a@eagle> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew C. Hornback types: > Egads... someone's showing their age... or am I showing my lack > thereof? Is there a difference. > I don't remember this... but it sounds like it was from the late > 70s/early 80s. Heck, I barely remember Amdahls at all... I've only > seen pictures of 'em, as far as I know. *grins* Well, if I've seen an Amdahl, I didn't notice it. The places I worked with IBM hardware was true blue. I *have* helped judge Amdahl bids in response to an RFQ, though. > > There may not have been a crossover of manufacturers, but there was > > pretty clearly a customer migration. I watched it happen - and my > > career followed, going from big iron to minis to desktop > > workstations. So far I've managed to avoid anything that > > looks like MS > > OS support, and have no plans at all to change *that*. > In the installations that I've seen, the move was from 'frames to > client/server. Sign of the times, the colleges that I went to just > decomissioned their ES/9000 and Vax installations in the past couple > of years. To make matters worse, both institutions are stuck with > thier old big iron until the next remodel of the buildings come along. > Seems that in the last remodel at each facility, someone figured that > the big computer would be there for years upon years, and they did the > remodel in a manner that wouldn't allow either machine to leave the > premises. Yeah, minicomputers were basically indistinguishable from from mainframes at the end user level. While minicomputers could replace mainframes, there wasn't a lot of incentive to do so. The end users really didn't see a difference, as they had terminals on their desk in either case. All that really happened was that you probably had to buy new applications and convert all your data for a new platform. Minicomputers sold because they let smaller units control their own information. DEC called the PDP/VAX 11/780 a "minicomputer" because a lot of companies would let regional office buy "minicomputers" without corporate approval. No definition I know for "minicomputer" describes a 780, though. I still remember editing card images on a departmental PDP-11/70 running v6 to submit to the computer center 370 running MVS. Seen in that light, desktop computers are the next logical step in pushing computing from a data center out to the user. The first sales I know of were to small companies that couldn't afford the $50K-$100K for a low-end mini, but didn't have any problem dropping $10K on a high-end micro (those were typically S/100 MP/M boxes with somewhwere between 256K and 1024K). Client-server is the result of making it convenient to share data after PC's got both cheap and useful enough to put on people's desk (and we'll ignore the role of big blue having a PC legitimizing them in the eyes of corporate IT managers). > > The original comment was about standardization and the PC market. > > Most of the people playing with PC hardware I knew in the early days > > had done the migration. They took incomparability between > > manfacturers > > as a given, and they didn't push for any kind of standardization. > I'm out of my tree here, probably, since I've only been working with > PCs for about 16 years... and back then, it was a Timex/Sinclair 1000 > with the 2k RAM pack and interpreted BASIC... *Grins* This was a bit earlier than that. TRS-80 model 1s, for instance. Those S/100 system, only running CP/M and less memory were more popular - so much so that you could get a couple of different flavors of CP/M for the TRS-80. There were even C compilers and stripped down emacs commercialy available for CP/M. OS/9 was the best of breed, though. It was *almost* Unix. Same set of file operators, tree-structured directories, good things like that. It ran multi-user quite nicely on a 2MHz 6809 with 64K of ram. Radio Shack sold a version for their Color Computer, and you could actually hang a terminal off the serial port and log in remotely. > > > Which reminds me... has anyone seen the new Intel > > vision of what a > > > consumer PC is going to be? It's basically a stack of > > boxes, like an > > > Aztec temple, each one holding a component or two. > > Foundational box > > > holding the motherboard, processor and memory. Next step > > up holding > > > the DVD-RAM drive, followed up the next steps containing > > the HDD, the > > > other removable media drive (looked like a Zip drive), and the top > > > being the control and I/O panel with all of the ports on > > top. Gone > > > are your PS/2 ports for mouse and keyboard, replaced by > > USB. Gone are > > > your serial and parallel ports, replaced by USB. > > Ok - what's the drive interconnect? Are they actually running IDE to > > external boxes? > They're using USB to interconnect the drive hardware, and since you > can just add on USB devices whenever and have up to 127 possible > devices per USB chain... they think that'll make for all the > expandability you'll ever need... Well, they may well be right about not needing any more devices, but I don't think USB is going to cut it for speed on disks. Was there a firewire port hiding somewhere? > > Actually, it all already is, in the sense that you can buy > > newer/faster/better hardware. > Newer/Faster/Better isn't always the case. Intel's 8xx motherboard > fiascos and the introduction of RIMMs... need I say more? Better isn't always better, either :-). I have a long history of picking things for being the best technology available. I also have a shed full of orphans. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 20: 4:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE8537B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:04:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2F43me75356; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:03:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200103150403.f2F43me75356@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Rob Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: David Kelly Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? In-reply-to: Message from Rob of "Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:40:05 PST." <3AAEDA05.70B4FB77@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:03:47 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob writes: > David Kelly wrote: > > > > Put MacOS X on it two weeks from now. It should have a pretty enough > > interface to keep him amused. And a solid foundation underneath. > > I never thought about Mac OS X. I have an an old Power Computing clone > here in the basement- I wonder if OS X will run on it? It might be > nice to try it out first. Thanks for the advice. Sadly, running MacOS X on the older hardware might work if you replace the kernel with an offical recompiled Darwin. Some have had such success with the Public Beta. Suspect Apple will have to extend support to older hardware eventually but at the moment has their hands full. Have had a PowerCenterPro 210 MHz 604e the past 5 years, used daily. Couldn't afford to mess it up playing with Darwin, so I didn't play. With the January price drop I couldn't pass up a G4 400 at $1295. Ordered on the web at 10:30 PM, arrived at 9:30 AM the next morning from Outpost.com, free shipping, and they threw in an additional 64MB. Even let me install it vs. the other places that stiff you $30 to install the "free" memory. So now if I could just find the time I have an unsupported 604e to play wiht Darwin on. But had so much fun with the G4 that I turned around and ordered a Titanium PowerBook G4 400. Had that for a couple weeks too and no time to "move in" and get settled. However, I've preordered MacOS X, and may hide from the world that weekend it arrives. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 20:47:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7837537B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2F4kke76575; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:46:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200103150446.f2F4kke76575@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Garrett Wollman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: [OT?] - Central point router In-reply-to: Message from Garrett Wollman of "Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:03:48 EST." <200103140303.WAA43519@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:46:46 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garrett Wollman writes: > Am I the only person who saw that subject line and was immediately > reminded of Central Point Software, the company that sold programs > (like ``Copy II PC'') for duplicating copy-protected software? Central Point Software started their life making Apple II software. While Copy II Plus was able to do certain copy protected discs it was faster and easier than Apple's disc copier. "COPYA", I believe was the Applesoft version, and "COPYI" if you only had integer basic. ??? The ulitmate was a utility called Disk Muncher. Could do a 2-drive duplicate in 38 seconds. Talk about lack of error detection... I always favored Beagle Bros products myself. Still have my "Apple Colors/ASCII Values" posted behind me (dated 6/84), and above it is their "6502 Instructions" where I've penned in interesting 65C02 enhancements. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 20:55:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE2D37B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:55:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA07581; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:49:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAWfa4Wo; Wed Mar 14 21:49:47 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA01766; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:55:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103150455.VAA01766@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 04:55:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hornback@wireco.net (Andrew C. Hornback), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15024.15515.195623.598446@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Mar 14, 2001 09:52:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I don't remember this... but it sounds like it was from the late > > 70s/early 80s. Heck, I barely remember Amdahls at all... I've only > > seen pictures of 'em, as far as I know. *grins* > > Well, if I've seen an Amdahl, I didn't notice it. The places I worked > with IBM hardware was true blue. I *have* helped judge Amdahl bids in > response to an RFQ, though. The suit was filed on behalf of CDC in 1956. It was dropped by the DOJ in 1982, 26 years later. IBM paid the fines as just another cost of doing business. [ ... ] > Yeah, minicomputers were basically indistinguishable from from > mainframes at the end user level. While minicomputers could replace > mainframes, there wasn't a lot of incentive to do so. The end users > really didn't see a difference, as they had terminals on their desk in > either case. All that really happened was that you probably had to > buy new applications and convert all your data for a new platform. Back in the "bill you for CPU seconds" days, there was a lot of incentive to buy your own machine. Departmental control was only a tiny fraction of the incentive. The biggest incentive at the time for minicomputers is budget level at which you require external approval. Most universities and all governement agencies, at least in the U.S., ended up buying minicomputers. Computer category as also a big deal, as far as what you were allowed to buy, since it was bean counters in the computing services centers trying to protect their income on CPU time billing to departments who made the rules, never knowing that what they were approving was letting someone out from under their thumb, until amost everyone had escaped. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 21:27:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 76C9A37B718 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:27:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 36155 invoked by uid 100); 15 Mar 2001 05:27:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15024.21186.135020.488657@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:27:30 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: hornback@wireco.net (Andrew C. Hornback), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) In-Reply-To: <200103150455.VAA01766@usr05.primenet.com> References: <15024.15515.195623.598446@guru.mired.org> <200103150455.VAA01766@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > Yeah, minicomputers were basically indistinguishable from from > > mainframes at the end user level. While minicomputers could replace > > mainframes, there wasn't a lot of incentive to do so. The end users > > really didn't see a difference, as they had terminals on their desk in > > either case. All that really happened was that you probably had to > > buy new applications and convert all your data for a new platform. > > Back in the "bill you for CPU seconds" days, there was a lot > of incentive to buy your own machine. > > Departmental control was only a tiny fraction of the incentive. > The biggest incentive at the time for minicomputers is budget > level at which you require external approval. That's why DEC called the high-end vaxes minicomputers, even though they pretty clearly weren't (or did I say that already?). > Most universities > and all governement agencies, at least in the U.S., ended up > buying minicomputers. Computer category as also a big deal, > as far as what you were allowed to buy, since it was bean counters > in the computing services centers trying to protect their income > on CPU time billing to departments who made the rules, never > knowing that what they were approving was letting someone out from > under their thumb, until amost everyone had escaped. Oddly enough, the university I was working at had this interesting problem that they kept having to charge less for CPU time. Grant money got allocated for it, but few - if any - grants actually used all of the CPU time they had purchased. So the IT center never used all their budget for CPU time, so they overage was reflected in next years budget, and the rates went down. There, the departments bought their own machines for control, not budgetary, reasons. Being able to run the OS they wanted, not having to fight people in other departments for resources on the machine, etc. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 21:35:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FEF037B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:35:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA11183 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:35:38 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:35:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disk I/O problem in 4.3-BETA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Iain Templeton wrote: > > Someone leaked the Linux austrailian elevator algorithm to the disk > > manufacturers? > > > As an elevator user in Australia I'm intrigued by this comment? > > I know our elevators at work can play up ("No I said up to the 5th, not > down to B1!"). Don't remind me. I've sent two elevators up eight floors of a ten story building just to get one to go up three stories correctly! (Yes, I am in the US.) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 22:41:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CA237B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f2F6fVx03081; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:41:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , Subject: RE: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:41:31 -0800 Message-ID: <001201c0ad1a$f875d280$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <15024.1640.544526.101490@guru.mired.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, this is yet another reminder of how damaging Windows has been to the market. The current Intel CPU's are tremendously retarded by the PC architecture, and the reason the PC architecture survives is because of the Microsoft near-monopoly. If Windows had never held more than, say 40% of the market, we would have tons more computational power today and PC architecure woudl be a dim memory. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] >Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 4:02 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: hornback@wireco.net; chat@freebsd.org >Subject: RE: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) > > >[Redirected from -questions.] > >Ted Mittelstaedt types: >> >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Andrew C. >> > This is what they want the PC to be once the IA-64 hits mainstream. >> >Which basically means that when the Itanium gets out there and into >> >the hands of more than the technophiles, nearly everything that we >> >have now is going to be obsolete. >> I really doubt it. I think your going to see the motherboard and CPU >> change but it will still go into the same case, take the same >peripherals, >> and same ram, and all that. Probably it will spawn a lot of >hand-wringing >> about how the "rest of the system" is holding back the power of the >> IA-64. > >Which sounds like it will parallel the x86 line growing up. The best >line I remember from that era was something like "The x86 performs >very well in a well-designed platform. Now, if only you could buy an >x86 architecture other than IBM-PC clones off the shelf." > > -- >Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 23: 9:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE0637B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C2241239A54; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:09:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:09:28 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT?] - Central point router Message-ID: <20010314230928.N9369@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <200103150446.f2F4kke76575@grumpy.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200103150446.f2F4kke76575@grumpy.dyndns.org>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:46:46PM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-03-14 22:46 -0600, David Kelly wrote: > Garrett Wollman writes: > > Am I the only person who saw that subject line and was immediately > > reminded of Central Point Software, the company that sold programs > > (like ``Copy II PC'') for duplicating copy-protected software? > > Central Point Software started their life making Apple II software. > The ulitmate was a utility called Disk Muncher. Could do a 2-drive > duplicate in 38 seconds. Talk about lack of error detection... The Locksmith could get the disks that Copy ][ Plus couldn't, and vice versa. I remember the Disk Muncher, too. Zoooom! > I always favored Beagle Bros products myself. Still have my "Apple > Colors/ASCII Values" posted behind me (dated 6/84), and above it is > their "6502 Instructions" where I've penned in interesting 65C02 > enhancements. I never had either of those, but for years my favorite poster was the Beagle Bros. version of what not to do to your floppy disks: http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/tmp/beagle.jpg Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Frotz! mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 14 23:59:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795BA37B719 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:59:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21942; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:59:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:58:54 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15024.10001.392144.544860@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:21 PM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >It appears that you want to justify your turning Stallman into a >boogeyman by calling him a thief No, I'm not. He does advocate stealing, but the reason why he is dangerous (you can call him a "boogeyman" if that suits you) is because of the GPL and the deception that surrounds it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 0: 7:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1748237B719 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 40367 invoked by uid 100); 15 Mar 2001 08:07:13 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15024.30769.67307.830828@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:07:13 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 07:21 PM 3/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > No, I'm not. He does advocate stealing, but the reason why he > is dangerous (you can call him a "boogeyman" if that suits you) > is because of the GPL and the deception that surrounds it. You have as yet to prove that he advocates stealing. All you've done is quoted him encouraging people to share software. Or are you such an extremist that you think that no one shold be allowed to share software? If so, you're as bad as the worst of the publishers, because you're actively trying to take authors rights away from them. That makes you a much bigger threat to programmers than Stallman. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 0:13:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD5C37B718 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com) Received: from rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com ([216.196.73.168]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:11:45 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f2F8DlT28147; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:13:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:13:46 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Mike Meyer , hornback@wireco.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) Message-ID: <20010315001346.G496@cjc-desktop.users.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <15024.1640.544526.101490@guru.mired.org> <001201c0ad1a$f875d280$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001201c0ad1a$f875d280$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:41:31PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 10:41:31PM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Yes, this is yet another reminder of how damaging Windows > has been to the market. The current Intel CPU's are > tremendously retarded by the PC architecture, and the > reason the PC architecture survives is because of the > Microsoft near-monopoly. If Windows had never held more > than, say 40% of the market, we would have tons more > computational power today and PC architecure woudl be a dim > memory. Then again, would the hoards of desktop lusers out there really need that 128 MB RAM and 800 MHz CPU if there weren't a fscking animated, AI, dancing paperclips lurking in the already bloated office suite they use? I hate that little bastard so-o much. eevul eevul eevul eevul, die die die die die die die. I use the "old" and "slow" PII 400 MHz boxes with a meager 64 MB RAM at the office and have a hard time justifying that much muscle when doing stuff with a non-MS OS. The causality here is kind of hard to sort out. Does the M$ bloatware press hardware manufactures to keep getting more processors, disk, and memory for less money, or has the software has just run away as the hardware resources became available? It's still hard to believe 16 IRQ's haven't already killed the arch as anyone with a recent notebook PC loaded with built-in devices can attest. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 0:17:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5655937B71C for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:17:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id MAA72017464 Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:33:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA59392; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:40:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:40:18 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Rob Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? Message-ID: <20010313104018.C59350@darkstar.gte.net> References: <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3AAD626B.CC372925@home.com>; from europax@home.com on Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 03:57:31PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Find a game company in your area and see if you can arrange to take him for a tour. Getting a chance to meet some game designers or programmers might generate some interest. Or maybe go to a trade show, so he can see how much business is a part of the game scene. I'll be facing this situation someday soon myself. I'm not convinced that the computer field will always be as good a place to be as it is today. As the computer becomes more commonplace, it becomes less exciting. For my father, it was working on cars. For me, it was working on computers. For my children, it may be working on something else. [RC] On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 03:57:31PM -0800, Rob wrote: > My nephew spends just about every waking moment (other than school) in > front of the > computer playing games. So this Christmas I thought I'd expand his > horizons by buying > him a new Imac with SuSE Linux preinstalled by me. > > I showed him how to use the man pages and other documentation, and tried > to explain to him > why such a computer might be more interesting than a Windoze box. Well, > he was pretty much > flabbergasted and confused by this new computer (try accomplishing that > with a teenager). He > had no idea what to do with it, despite my attempts to explain how cool > it might be to do > some hacking and programming on it. To that end I showed him Python, > and how easy it was to make > programs. > > The computer has just sat unused for weeks. > > Did I screw up? Are children so used to being spoon-fed information > that they no longer have > the interest in independent investigation? This is a bright kid who > claimed to have an > interest in computers. > > Oh, well thanks for listening to my rant. Maybe it will just take some > time. Rob. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 1:54:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3275637B718 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:54:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f2F9sgx03461; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:54:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Cc: "Bob Van Valzah" , "pW" Subject: RE: Racoon Problem & Cisco Tunnel Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:54:41 -0800 Message-ID: <006401c0ad35$f4e51660$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <3AAF8F41.59B3F3B@softweyr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Wes Peters >No, it's both. Proactive organizations should be implementing both >early rather than late, and anyone selecting network infrastructure >equipment at this time should be buying equipment that is IPv4 and >IPv6 capable. > More marketing FUD. Most networking equipment today runs from flash rom code and if IPv6 ever becomes seriously used then those manufacturers are going to release code updates mighty quick. > >Yes, I certainly would. That's a business asset, and a quite valuable >one. If they have the last open large block on the Internet and they are not using it, and they are percieved as just hanging onto it because they might do something with it in the future, they are going to suffer immense PR damage. Plus that, what your missing is that if they continue to hold onto it, and not give it up, then it forces a move to IPv6 - and once IPv6 is implemented, then the large block becomes completely worthless. It's only an asset if they are using it to generate revenue with, such as if they were going to use it to open a new ISP. Otherwise, it's a liability, and a monsterous one at that. I have a portable class C that I'm not using at the moment because >my ISP, dunderheads that they are, charge 4x the price of the connection >to route a class C. If anyone wants to buy this lovely address, bidding >starts at $50,000. ;^) > I would guess that if you haven't maintained that number in the BGP routing tables, that you will find it very difficult to get it back in now. It's probably worthless unless it can be aggregated with adjacent subnets to make a decently sized supernet. DO you know who the owners are of the adjacent subnets? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 5:43:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F03037B719 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:43:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f2FDhZT16488; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:43:35 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200103150446.f2F4kke76575@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <200103150446.f2F4kke76575@grumpy.dyndns.org> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:32:02 +0100 To: David Kelly , Garrett Wollman From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [OT?] - Central point router Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:46 PM -0600 3/14/01, David Kelly wrote: > I always favored Beagle Bros products myself. Oh, man. Their ProntoDOS was the absolute coolest. It sliced bread about a half dozen different ways, and if you wanted to toast the bread as well, there were plenty of other packages that Beagle Bros. sold that could do that, too. -- Brad Knowles, #!/usr/bin/perl -w # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order # Usage: # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 5:55:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD5237B71D for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:55:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f2FDsrr14009 ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:54:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA34325 ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:54:53 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:54:53 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: signature (was Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD ISOs/CDs) Message-ID: <20010315145452.C33560@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , Neil Blakey-Milner , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200103141336.f2EDaZ215574@ns1.unixathome.org>; <20010314153955.A17985@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <200103141342.f2EDga215670@ns1.unixathome.org> <20010314154654.A18459@rapier.smartspace.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:01:18PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Mar 14, 2001 at 15:01:18: > -- > Brad Knowles, > > #!/usr/bin/perl -w > # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz > # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout > # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order > # Usage: > # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - > $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( > $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 > -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h > =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ > d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ > $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ > (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval Speaking of signatures... have you seen this one? Also from Touretzky's site, and apparently very fast -- faster than the spec allows for. -- /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ #define K(i)(x[i]^s[i+84])<< unsigned char x[5],y,z,s[2048];main(n){for(read(0,x,5);read(0,s,n=2048);write(1 ,s,n))if(s[y=s[13]%8+20]/16%4==1){int i=K(1)17^256+K(0)8,k=K(2)0,j=K(4)17^K(3)9 ^k*2-k%8^8,a=0,b=0,c=26;for(s[y]-=16;--c;i/=2,j/=2)a=a*2^i&1,b=b*2^j&1;for(j= 127;++jy)a^=a>>14,a=a>>8^(y=a^a*8^a<<6)<<9,b=b>>8^(z=b^b/8^b>>4^b>>12) <<17,i=s[j],i="7Wo~'G_\216"[i&7]+2^"cr3sfw6v;*k+>/n."[i>>4]*2^i*257/8,s[j]=i^(i &i*2&34)*6^z+c+~y;}} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 6:55:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EDD37B719 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 06:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25037; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:55:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:55:04 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15024.30769.67307.830828@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:07 AM 3/15/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >You have as yet to prove that he advocates stealing. All you've done >is quoted him encouraging people to share software. And then saying that piracy is "sharing." Oh, and he also directly advocates piracy during public appearances. >Or are you such an >extremist that you think that no one shold be allowed to share >software? Do you think I'd be using BSD if I did? It appears that you're now moving toward the paranoid loony fringe of the FSF, which has lately been touting this absurd, imaginary "threat." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 11: 5:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7242837B71D for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA61343; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:05:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Gregory Sutter Cc: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT?] - Central point router References: <200103150446.f2F4kke76575@grumpy.dyndns.org> <20010314230928.N9369@klapaucius.zer0.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 2001 20:05:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: Gregory Sutter's message of "Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:09:28 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter writes: > http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/tmp/beagle.jpg Sweet Jesus! "Do not feed to alligators"? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 13:10:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D36437B718; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:10:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA62013; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:10:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Garrett Wollman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftpd SITE MD5 and "really bad links" References: <200103152003.PAA48601@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <200103152102.QAA49281@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 2001 22:10:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: Garrett Wollman's message of "Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:02:03 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garrett Wollman writes: > There is already a security mechanism defined for FTP. What's that, "don't use FTP"? :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 13:24:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EAF37B71E for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:24:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from galt@inconnu.isu.edu) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA30162; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:23:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:23:49 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt To: James Howard Cc: Rob , David Kelly , dannyman , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: How do you get kids interested in computers- other than playing games? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Copies-to: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, James Howard wrote: >On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Rob wrote: > >> Would be interesting to take twins, start one on VI and the other on >> Emacs, then see how they turned out 20 years later :) Rob. > >At the same time, one of them should spend his entire life on a motorcycle >at 80 miles an hour. Better make that the vi one. It's kind of hard to drive a bike doing the vulcan neck pinch on a keyboard... >Jamie > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- You have paid nothing for the preceding, therefore it's worth every penny you've paid for it: if you did pay for it, might I remind you of the immortal words of Phineas Taylor Barnum regarding fools and money? Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 13:26:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699BA37B718 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:26:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14dfFk-0002Yv-00; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:25:48 +0000 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:25:48 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Mike Meyer Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , chat@freebsd.org, tedm@toybox.placo.com Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) Message-ID: <20010315212548.E905@hand.dotat.at> References: <46214260@toto.iv> <15024.1411.79596.364926@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15024.1411.79596.364926@guru.mired.org> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > >Ok - what's the drive interconnect? Are they actually running IDE to >external boxes? IEEE 1394, i.e. FireWire. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at ROCKALL: NORTHEAST 5 TO 7, OCCASIONALLY GALE 8 IN SOUTH. RAIN IN SOUTH. MODERATE OR GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 14:10:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6AA437B766 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f2FMAJT27161; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:10:23 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010315145452.C33560@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200103141336.f2EDaZ215574@ns1.unixathome.org>; <20010314153955.A17985@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <200103141342.f2EDga215670@ns1.unixathome.org> <20010314154654.A18459@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010315145452.C33560@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:58:11 +0100 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: signature (was Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD ISOs/CDs) Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:54 PM +0100 3/15/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Speaking of signatures... have you seen this one? Declan McCullough popularized it in his Wired article at , and he posted information on this to the DC-CypherPunks mailing list, of which I am a member. > Also from > Touretzky's site, and apparently very fast -- faster than the spec > allows for. Cool! I'll have to take a look at that again. -- Brad Knowles, #!/usr/bin/perl -w # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order # Usage: # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 14:32:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166AF37B71A for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:32:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA13802; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:32:30 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdBXyMia; Thu Mar 15 15:32:26 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23599; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:32:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103152232.PAA23599@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: signature (was Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD To: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:32:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), nbm@mithrandr.moria.org (Neil Blakey-Milner), dan@langille.org (Dan Langille), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Mar 15, 2001 10:58:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Speaking of signatures... have you seen this one? > > Declan McCullough popularized it in his Wired article at > , and he > posted information on this to the DC-CypherPunks mailing list, of > which I am a member. Heh... quoting from the referenced article: | The DMCA prohibits anyone from publishing or publicly | distributing any hardware or software that "is primarily | designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing | protection afforded by a technological measure that | effectively protects a right of a copyright owner." So if the technological measure is ineffective, then it's OK to publish and publically distribute it, right? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 16:59:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9DA0F37B718 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:59:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 64055 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2001 00:59:46 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15025.25986.558682.795289@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:59:46 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 01:07 AM 3/15/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >You have as yet to prove that he advocates stealing. All you've done > >is quoted him encouraging people to share software. > And then saying that piracy is "sharing." Oh, and he also directly > advocates piracy during public appearances. Describing actions so they fit the world-view you want people to adopt is a an accepted practice in political arguments. Stallmans' acts are exactly paralleled by the SPA's propoganda posters that say "Copying is theft". They are quite literally calling you a thief for using FreeBSD. You've shown me two separate quotes witn no context that, if put together, imply he advocates theft. They no more prove that he has done that than the SPA's propoganda - especially when tied with Allchin's recent comments - proves that they want to make free software illegal. > >Or are you such an > >extremist that you think that no one shold be allowed to share > >software? > Do you think I'd be using BSD if I did? It appears that you're > now moving toward the paranoid loony fringe of the FSF, which > has lately been touting this absurd, imaginary "threat." I'd say I'm reacting to a paranoid, looney dupe of the publishers industry. Now that the public has become aware of publishers attacks on fair use and artists rights, they are trying to demonize Stallman et. al. to provide an excuse and you're helping them. The only problem is that their attacks date back to at least 1976; well before the GNU Manifesto, the Free Software Foundation, and public access to the internet - much less the availability of broadband access that you've tried to blame. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 17:24:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F8C37B719 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02535; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:24:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:23:58 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15025.25986.558682.795289@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:59 PM 3/15/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Describing actions so they fit the world-view you want people to adopt >is a an accepted practice in political arguments. And Stallman's deceptive political rhetoric does exactly that. What is truly amazing is the sheer number of people who have been misled by it. Even as the Linux companies fail one by one, unable to make money due to the GPL, the zealots cling to Stallman's dogma. Perhaps for ego's sake. > Stallmans' acts are >exactly paralleled by the SPA's propoganda posters that say "Copying >is theft". They are quite literally calling you a thief for using >FreeBSD. No, they are doing no such thing. You've clearly gone off the deep end on this one. >You've shown me two separate quotes witn no context that, if put >together, imply he advocates theft. The context is on the Web. Find it if you're concerned that I quoted Stallman out of context (which I didn't). (I assume that you know how to type a phrase into a search engine.) >They no more prove that he has >done that than the SPA's propoganda - especially when tied with >Allchin's recent comments - proves that they want to make free >software illegal. Stallman has explicitly stated his intent. Many times over. >> Do you think I'd be using BSD if I did? It appears that you're >> now moving toward the paranoid loony fringe of the FSF, which >> has lately been touting this absurd, imaginary "threat." > >I'd say I'm reacting to a paranoid, looney dupe of the publishers >industry. Nonsense. I'm a programmer, author, and musician who would like to see creative people rewarded for their efforts. Stallman would destroy all such rewards. >Now that the public has become aware of publishers attacks on fair use >and artists rights, they are trying to demonize Stallman et. al. to >provide an excuse and you're helping them. Not so. The malevolence of Stallman's actions, and the harm they are doing, are clear to anyone who has seen their effects. And the publishers' actions are merely a reaction to Stallman and his ilk. Now that the Content War has begun, and users are simply acting as if there is no copyright, publishers are responding in kind and likewise acting as if there's no copyright. They are attempting to protect content via other means -- some of them onerous. Perhaps when people are bitten by these nasty alternatives they'll begin to realize just how beneficial the old balance was. >The only problem is that >their attacks date back to at least 1976; well before the GNU >Manifesto, the Free Software Foundation, and public access to the >internet - much less the availability of broadband access that you've >tried to blame. Not so. In fact, cases like the VHS case reaffirmed that there was a balance of rights and interests. It is only recently, with the escalation of hostilities, that both sides are throwing mutual respect and balance out the window. As you are in your intemperate remarks above. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 18:27: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F003937B725 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:26:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 66463 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2001 02:26:50 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15025.31210.825129.795217@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:26:50 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 05:59 PM 3/15/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Stallmans' acts are > >exactly paralleled by the SPA's propoganda posters that say "Copying > >is theft". They are quite literally calling you a thief for using > >FreeBSD. > No, they are doing no such thing. You've clearly gone off the deep > end on this one. You are right - they do no such thing. I'm glad you see that drawing that kind of conclusion would be crazy. I'm not going to do it for either side. > >They no more prove that he has > >done that than the SPA's propoganda - especially when tied with > >Allchin's recent comments - proves that they want to make free > >software illegal. > Stallman has explicitly stated his intent. Many times over. That seems to be a habit of yours - saying what you believe to be true without ever offering any proof. You respond to people not believing you - or to them providing references that show you are wrong - by repeating your believes. This tactic - known as "The Big Lie" is also SOP in political arguments, but not quite as well accepted as doublespeak. > >> Do you think I'd be using BSD if I did? It appears that you're > >> now moving toward the paranoid loony fringe of the FSF, which > >> has lately been touting this absurd, imaginary "threat." > >I'd say I'm reacting to a paranoid, looney dupe of the publishers > >industry. > Nonsense. I'm a programmer, author, and musician who would like > to see creative people rewarded for their efforts. Stallman would > destroy all such rewards. That's why I said "dupe." You don't realize that you've been conned into acting against your own best interests. > >Now that the public has become aware of publishers attacks on fair use > >and artists rights, they are trying to demonize Stallman et. al. to > >provide an excuse and you're helping them. > Not so. The malevolence of Stallman's actions, and the harm they > are doing, are clear to anyone who has seen their effects. The harm that Stallman is doing is no different than the harm any other competitor in the market place does. By not acting for his own best self-interest, he's managed to do harm comparable to that done by those holding monopoly positions. > And the publishers' actions are merely a reaction to Stallman and > his ilk. Bullshit. > >The only problem is that > >their attacks date back to at least 1976; well before the GNU > >Manifesto, the Free Software Foundation, and public access to the > >internet - much less the availability of broadband access that you've > >tried to blame. > Not so. In fact, cases like the VHS case reaffirmed that there > was a balance of rights and interests. It is only recently, with > the escalation of hostilities, that both sides are throwing > mutual respect and balance out the window. There's no such court case as "the VHS case". While the judge of the case I referred to did indeed reaffirm a balance of rights and interests, the publishers response to that attack failing was to attack the rights of the public and artists elsewhere. Again, before the GNU Manifesto and the FSF. These actions are part of a century-long campaign by publishing company to accrue rights to themselves at the expense of the public. > As you are in your intemperate remarks above. What? You mean I'm *not* justified to responding to your calling people "loon" and "dupe" by doing the same? I figured you'd approve of that, since you apparently swallowed the publishers attempt to justify their behavior by pointing at Stallman. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 22:10:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA91B37B718 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:10:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f2G69dx07206; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:09:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Cc: "Mike Meyer" , , Subject: RE: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:09:38 -0800 Message-ID: <00e901c0addf$aedcebc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <20010315001346.G496@cjc-desktop.users.reflexcom.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Crist J. Clark [mailto:cjclark@reflexnet.net] >Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 12:14 AM > >The causality here is kind of hard to sort out. Does the M$ bloatware >press hardware manufactures to keep getting more processors, disk, and >memory for less money, or has the software has just run away as the >hardware resources became available? I think the second. The gamers have always been the ones to demand the biggest hardware for their realtime animation, I think MS just comes along later and sucks the spare CPU cycles up. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 22:38:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48ED237B71A for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:38:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05731; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:38:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:38:06 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15025.31210.825129.795217@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:26 PM 3/15/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> Stallman has explicitly stated his intent. Many times over. > >That seems to be a habit of yours - saying what you believe to be true >without ever offering any proof. You respond to people not believing >you - or to them providing references that show you are wrong - by >repeating your believes. That's "beliefs," I believe. And it's not merely a "belief." Again, it's fact. >You don't realize that you've been conned >into acting against your own best interests. Bullshit. No publisher has asked me in any way, shape or form to oppose the GPL. I oppose it because it is explicitly designed to destroy my livelihood. As Stallman told me, personally, face to face many years ago. At the time, I dismissed Stallman's efforts as Quixotic because I overestimated programmers' understanding of business, politics, and human nature. I should have listened to Mencken. >The harm that Stallman is doing is no different than the harm any >other competitor in the market place does. Not true. The GPL is not competitive; it is anti-competitive. >By not acting for his own >best self-interest, he's managed to do harm comparable to that done by >those holding monopoly positions. He very much IS acting in his own self interest. His goal is to build an empire and destroy the careers of others. And, so long as people such as you go along, he will continue to do damage. >There's no such court case as "the VHS case". Yes, there is -- or was. The company that was actually sued was RCA, as I recall. But there's no point trying to reason with you. I've not bothered to respond to the portions of your messages that were pure invective, because it's just not worth the time. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 22:58:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF8CF37B719 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:58:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 74403 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2001 06:58:13 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15025.47493.572650.285805@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 00:58:13 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 07:26 PM 3/15/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >> Stallman has explicitly stated his intent. Many times over. > > > >That seems to be a habit of yours - saying what you believe to be true > >without ever offering any proof. You respond to people not believing > >you - or to them providing references that show you are wrong - by > >repeating your believes. > > That's "beliefs," I believe. > > And it's not merely a "belief." Again, it's fact. Yes, it's a fact that you spell it beliefs. As for what you believe about Stallman, repeating it as often as you want won't prove it, and won't change anyones mind. I offered you a chance to prove it, and the best you could do was come up with a couple of quotes that are as bad as Allchin's quotes, but don't prove anything. All of which makes it look like you are spreading lies in an attempt to justify the most recent publishers attacks on fair use rights, and on the rights of independent artists to create and distribute their own music. > >There's no such court case as "the VHS case". > Yes, there is -- or was. The company that was actually sued > was RCA, as I recall. There is no court case whose title is "the VHS case", just like there's no such thing as "the US Copyright Code." There may well be a court case that is sometimes referred to by that name, but that's not a solid reference to it, and it certainly isn't the case I'm referring to. That one is "Sony Corporation of America et al. v. Universal City Sudios, Inc., et al.", and is commonly called "the betamax case" to avoid having to type that stuff out, just like "United States Code, Title 17 - Copyright" is sometimes called "the US Copyright code." > But there's no point trying to reason with you. I've not > bothered to respond to the portions of your messages that > were pure invective, because it's just not worth the time. You know, I now know why you act the way you do. It's fun. It's also amusing to see that you get to the same point that people do when dealing with you, and just give it up as a waste of time. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 23: 9:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C437137B71D for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06012; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 00:09:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316000411.00e3dcb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 00:09:15 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15025.47493.572650.285805@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:58 PM 3/15/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Yes, it's a fact that you spell it beliefs. As for what you believe >about Stallman, repeating it as often as you want won't prove it, and >won't change anyones mind. I offered you a chance to prove it, and the >best you could do was come up with a couple of quotes that are as bad >as Allchin's quotes, but don't prove anything. Of course, you will accept nothing -- not even eyewitness accounts or direct quotes -- as proof. And then walk away saying, "See, you didn't prove anything!" Which, of course, shows nothing but that it is pointless to converse with you. >You know, I now know why you act the way you do. It's fun. It's also >amusing to see that you get to the same point that people do when >dealing with you, and just give it up as a waste of time. Hopefully, thoese other people learned something. I don't hold out much hope that you have, though. You appear to be such a zealot that it truly is a waste of time. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 23:16:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 708F337B718 for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 74908 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2001 07:16:49 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15025.48609.728194.582344@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:16:49 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316000411.00e3dcb0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010316000411.00e3dcb0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 11:58 PM 3/15/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Yes, it's a fact that you spell it beliefs. As for what you believe > >about Stallman, repeating it as often as you want won't prove it, and > >won't change anyones mind. I offered you a chance to prove it, and the > >best you could do was come up with a couple of quotes that are as bad > >as Allchin's quotes, but don't prove anything. > Of course, you will accept nothing -- not even eyewitness > accounts or direct quotes -- as proof. And then walk away saying, > "See, you didn't prove anything!" I already pointed out the problem with the quotes. Your response to my request for the context was "go find it yourself." Come on - show me a single direct quote where he says "go steal programs". Or even two sentences, one that follows the other, where he says "publishers call sharing piracy. Share as much as you can". Better yet, provide a URL for that. I'm willing to read what you have to say and evaluate it, but I'm not going to take change my opinion just because you say so - I except you to actually prove your point, not merely bore me by constant repetition of it. > Which, of course, shows nothing but that it is pointless to converse > with you. You should be flattered that I chose to imitate your rhetorical technics. I should be happy that they have the same effect on you that they do on other people. > >You know, I now know why you act the way you do. It's fun. It's also > >amusing to see that you get to the same point that people do when > >dealing with you, and just give it up as a waste of time. > Hopefully, thoese other people learned something. I don't hold out > much hope that you have, though. You appear to be such a zealot > that it truly is a waste of time. I'm sure they learned something. Most of them learned that responding to what you write is a waste of time, because you aren't going to pay attention. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 15 23:46:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.musha.org (daemon.musha.org [61.122.44.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AAAA37B719; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:46:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from knu@iDaemons.org) Received: from archon.local.idaemons.org (archon.local.idaemons.org [192.168.1.32]) by mail.musha.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE734DC9A; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:46:14 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:46:14 +0900 Message-ID: <86r8zynol5.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> From: "Akinori MUSHA" To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/security/uvscan-dat Makefile distinfo In-Reply-To: <200103152015.f2FKF1t67092@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <200103152015.f2FKF1t67092@freefall.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.5.4 (Smooth) SEMI/1.14.2 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Daish=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ji?=) FLIM/1.14.2 (Yagi-Nishiguchi) APEL/10.2 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 14) (Cuyahoga Valley) (i386--freebsd) Organization: Associated I. Daemons X-PGP-Public-Key: finger knu@FreeBSD.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: 081D 099C 1705 861D 4B70 B04A 920B EFC7 9FD9 E1EE MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.2 - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Daish=F2ji=22?=) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:15:01 -0800 (PST), kkenn wrote: > kris 2001/03/15 12:15:01 PST > > Modified files: > security/uvscan-dat Makefile distinfo > Log: > Update to 4128 virus definitions It might be the pride of us that we have much more ports than those virii, but I wonder how long the lead would last. ;) -- / /__ __ Akinori.org / MUSHA.org / ) ) ) ) / FreeBSD.org / Ruby-lang.org Akinori MUSHA aka / (_ / ( (__( @ iDaemons.org / and.or.jp "We're only at home when we're on the run, on the wing, on the fly" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 1:18:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBE937B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:18:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f2G9H3028276; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:17:03 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200103152232.PAA23599@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200103152232.PAA23599@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:49:42 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: signature (was Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), nbm@mithrandr.moria.org (Neil Blakey-Milner), dan@langille.org (Dan Langille), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:32 PM +0000 3/15/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > So if the technological measure is ineffective, then it's OK > to publish and publically distribute it, right? Especially if the ease of publication and distribution is a primary method of demonstrating just how ludicrously silly the technological measure ever was to begin with. Anybody got any of the t-shirts yet? Have you worn them, especially in public? -- Brad Knowles, #!/usr/bin/perl -w # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order # Usage: # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 5:24:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951E237B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 05:24:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20450; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:23:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma020446; Fri, 16 Mar 01 08:23:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:23:14 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-Sender: To: Mike Meyer Cc: Terry Lambert , "Andrew C. Hornback" , Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) In-Reply-To: <15024.21186.135020.488657@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > Oddly enough, the university I was working at had this interesting > problem that they kept having to charge less for CPU time. Grant money > got allocated for it, but few - if any - grants actually used all of > the CPU time they had purchased. So the IT center never used all their > budget for CPU time, so they overage was reflected in next years > budget, and the rates went down. > This reminds me of an old story told by my Simulations professor. Back in the department-x-gets-y-cpu-cycles days, they would run Simulations in FORTRAN since that was the only language available to do that sort of thing (there might have been others but they used FORTRAN for whatever reason). The budgeting was set up such that if you only used 80% of your alloted CPU time on the University system, then you were only alloted that much CPU time the following fiscal year. Since the department (Management Science? Statistics? Don't know...) didn't want to loose their CPU budget allotment, they came up with the following means of using up their surplus CPU time at the end of the fiscal year: I = 1 DO WHILE (1 .EQ. 1) I = I + 1 END DO Cheers! p.s. It's been 6 years since I've done any FORTRAN coding, so no nitpicking please. - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE6shPKtZTBgtmnGNERAtnoAJ4t1X2h98AUGSDglU6LWdVNcVevugCgn3yL +CEzI/qFrO+b1vykfCmEcGI= =nqHx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 7:58:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from larry.compuage.com (larry.compuage.com [208.233.246.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384F937B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 07:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@compuage.com) Received: from hnet04.kellyhendrix.com (unverified [208.233.247.37]) by larry.compuage.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:54:15 -0500 Received: by hnet04.kellyhendrix.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3C31018CB1; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:59:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:59:46 -0500 From: Kelly Hendrix To: Chris Fuhrman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) Message-ID: <20010316105946.B1313@hnet04.kellyhendrix.com> Reply-To: Kelly Hendrix References: <15024.21186.135020.488657@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cfuhrman@tfcci.com on Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:23:14AM -0500 X-Freebsd-Version: FreeBSD 4.3-BETA i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This reminds me of an old story told by my Simulations professor. Back in > the department-x-gets-y-cpu-cycles days, they would run Simulations in > FORTRAN since that was the only language available to do that sort of > thing (there might have been others but they used FORTRAN for whatever > reason). The budgeting was set up such that if you only used 80% of your > alloted CPU time on the University system, then you were only alloted that > much CPU time the following fiscal year. > > Since the department (Management Science? Statistics? Don't know...) > didn't want to loose their CPU budget allotment, they came up with the > following means of using up their surplus CPU time at the end of the > fiscal year: > > I = 1 > DO WHILE (1 .EQ. 1) > I = I + 1 > END DO > At the university I attended, all CS students were given an account with a limited number of cpu seconds (don't ask how many because frankly, I don't remember). To keep runaway programs from eating all of a student's time, depending on what level computer course he was taking, limits were placed on the amount that a single program run could use. A friend of mine knew of a hack that took off this limit, and with a personal account, he executed a program similar to the one above. For whatever reasons, whether the account exceeded it's own time limits and started munching other peoples cpu time, or the program started using progressively more and more memory (as I recall he may of used a dynamically created linked list to expedite things) he crashed the computer he was on. Actually, I think they just had to turn it off. Anyway, it happened to be the main computer in the system (some sort of PDP-11 i think) and his little program ended up taking out the whole system for 3-4 days. Except for, of course, the Unix system running on it's own set of PDP-11's in the EE dept. Not that this adds much to the thread at hand, just remembering the 'good ole days' Kelly Hendrix PS I don't miss punch cards :) -- ______________________________________________________________________ | There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a | | miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. | | | | Albert Einstein (1879-1955) | |______________________________________________________________________| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 8: 8: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA0C37B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:08:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14dwll-000878-00; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:08:01 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:08:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) In-Reply-To: <20010316105946.B1313@hnet04.kellyhendrix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Kelly Hendrix wrote: > PS I don't miss punch cards :) My mom was a programmer for a Puget Sound university helping with student scheduling I think. She would often bring home huge stacks of punch cards which I used for practicing my writing and coloring. (I was three or four years old.) I am glad I never had to create the cards and use them. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 8:13:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7158437B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:13:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 90450 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2001 16:13:39 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15026.15283.444629.772885@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:13:39 -0600 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now a little OT but RE: FreeBSD and Linux (More Questions!) In-Reply-To: References: <20010316105946.B1313@hnet04.kellyhendrix.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy C. Reed types: > On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Kelly Hendrix wrote: > > PS I don't miss punch cards :) > My mom was a programmer for a Puget Sound university helping with student > scheduling I think. She would often bring home huge stacks of punch cards > which I used for practicing my writing and coloring. (I was three or four > years old.) I am glad I never had to create the cards and use them. Well, I liked using them for note cards. But I also programmed both tracks on the 029 keypunches - one for writing FORTRAN, and one for writing ALGOL. The real kicker was sorority rush at the university. They did the matches between pledges and the houses on card sorters. That's right - it was all mechanical. They were the only people using it, and we'd fire it up once a year, just for them. This was even recently enough we had a unix system on campus. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 10:19:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yuri.hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp (PPP35.soka-ap.dti.ne.jp [210.170.224.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A44D937B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:19:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pasqual@hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) Received: (qmail 5871 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 03:27:40 +0900 Received: from localhost.cb21.co.jp (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.cb21.co.jp with SMTP; 17 Mar 2001 03:27:40 +0900 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Mall ? X-Mailer: Mew version 1.95b3 on Emacs 19.34 / Mule 2.3 (SUETSUMUHANA) X-PGP-fingerprint: D7 6E 2A A9 B2 8B 0A B3 CB ED 97 8A D0 46 25 0A X-PGP-Public-Key-Location: finger -l pasqual@hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp or Home Page X-URL: http://www.hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~pasqual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010317032739E.pasqual@hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 03:27:39 +0900 From: Ajith Pasqual X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 17 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi All, Does anyone know what has happened to FreeBSD Mall ? I placed an order for Greg's Complete FreeBSD Book with CD Set on Monday morning (to send as a gift). I received the automated acknowledgement that the order has been received and that I would be getting order confirmation within 1-2 business days. But I am yet to get any replies to few Emails I have sent asking the status of my order. No one was there to pick up the phone either!! Has it gone bankcrupt ? Ajith. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 10:24:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3743337B71A for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:24:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14dytc-000L1p-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:24:16 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f2GIOFM33546 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:24:15 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:24:15 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is there a rule of them when to use macros? Message-ID: <20010316182415.A33526@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm sure there is one, but when do you make a macro a short function and vice versa? jm -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org "It took the computing power of three C-64s to fly to the Moon. It takes a 486 to run Windows 95. Something is wrong here." --------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 11: 0:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC7D37B721 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:00:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treznor@sunflower.com) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA18293; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:00:22 -0600 Message-ID: <000601c0ae4a$8cb41940$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: , "Ajith Pasqual" References: <20010317032739E.pasqual@hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall ? Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:54:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I ordered from them last night and this morning they called to get my credit card information. Even though I entered the information on the webpage. Did you supply a valid phone number? Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: Ajith Pasqual To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: FreeBSD Mall ? | | Hi All, | | Does anyone know what has happened to FreeBSD Mall ? | | I placed an order for Greg's Complete FreeBSD Book with CD Set on Monday | morning (to send as a gift). | | I received the automated acknowledgement that the order has been received and | that I would be getting order confirmation within 1-2 business days. | | But I am yet to get any replies to few Emails I have sent asking the status of | my order. No one was there to pick up the phone either!! | | Has it gone bankcrupt ? | | Ajith. | | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org | with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 11:12:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F3837B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:12:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f2GIxP127719; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:59:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:59:25 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a rule of them when to use macros? Message-ID: <20010316105925.C12128@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010316182415.A33526@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="O3RTKUHj+75w1tg5" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010316182415.A33526@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:24:15PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --O3RTKUHj+75w1tg5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:24:15PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: >=20 > I'm sure there is one, but when do you make a macro a short function and > vice versa? Pretty much never. There are times when using a macro is a reasonable thing to do, but IMO, most of them are for readability rather then speed. In one of the programs I spend a lot of time hacking on there were places were I had considered using macros in place of some accessor functions, but after profiling I desided that I really didn't need that >1sec out of a 45min runtime at the cost of type checking. Places I like macros are in hiding repetative arguments to complex function calls like the macros that declare ioctls (see /usr/include/sys/ioccom.h). -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --O3RTKUHj+75w1tg5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6smKLXY6L6fI4GtQRAoylAKCUWB+Pxqp4uKxSoBjW89qZ30M/dgCfZy+i 2gbycQ1f/WSiEk6Sl1ST1bo= =+QO1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --O3RTKUHj+75w1tg5-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 12: 6:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCC837B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:06:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14e0UX-000MXj-00; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:06:29 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f2GK6Sj34744; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:06:28 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:06:28 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: I mean, rule of THUMB when to use macros Message-ID: <20010316200628.A34692@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010316182415.A33526@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010316105925.C12128@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010316105925.C12128@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 10:59:25AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can't believe I mispelled 'thumb' :-\ | > I'm sure there is one, but when do you make a macro a short function and | > vice versa? | | Pretty much never. There are times when using a macro is a reasonable | thing to do, but IMO, most of them are for readability rather then speed. Hmmm, that's what I'm seeing. | are in hiding repetative arguments to complex function calls like the | macros that declare ioctls (see /usr/include/sys/ioccom.h). That's what I'm using them for. Some repeated groups of statements that are preambles and cleanups for some function calls. Nothing overly complex, but it makes it easier to read. jm -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org "It took the computing power of three C-64s to fly to the Moon. It takes a 486 to run Windows 95. Something is wrong here." --------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 12:54:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F064337B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:54:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f2GKf2r07106; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:41:02 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:41:02 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I mean, rule of THUMB when to use macros Message-ID: <20010316124102.A5637@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010316182415.A33526@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010316105925.C12128@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20010316200628.A34692@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010316200628.A34692@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:06:28PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 08:06:28PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > That's what I'm using them for. Some repeated groups of statements that = are > preambles and cleanups for some function calls. Nothing overly complex, = but > it makes it easier to read. If you mean calling multiple functions with a macro, I can't really recommend that. I'd defiantly consider a function there. Multi-line macros (while somewhat common in the kernel) are generally to be avoided. What I actually meand was things like this: ifmedia_init(&sc->an_ifmedia, 0, an_media_change, an_media_status); #define ADD(m, c) ifmedia_add(&sc->an_ifmedia, (m), (c), NULL) ADD(IFM_MAKEWORD(IFM_IEEE80211, IFM_IEEE80211_DS1, IFM_IEEE80211_ADHOC, 0), 0); [snip another 9 uses of the ADD macro] #undef ADD ifmedia_set(&sc->an_ifmedia, IFM_MAKEWORD(IFM_IEEE80211, IFM_AUTO, 0, 0)); I got this particular usage from NetBSD and used it in my ifconfig wireless patches. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6snpdXY6L6fI4GtQRAgFeAJ0TWprf+m1igPJgAYnFRCnv3T2AEACcCIzK vIhNxIkioZN3bT+P5ZMdFeA= =6dEl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 14: 1:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-202.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4674337B719; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:01:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D2F4E66E9B; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:01:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:01:18 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Akinori MUSHA Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/security/uvscan-dat Makefile distinfo Message-ID: <20010316140118.A639@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <200103152015.f2FKF1t67092@freefall.freebsd.org> <86r8zynol5.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <86r8zynol5.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org>; from knu@iDaemons.org on Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:46:14PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:46:14PM +0900, Akinori MUSHA wrote: > At Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:15:01 -0800 (PST), > kkenn wrote: > > kris 2001/03/15 12:15:01 PST > >=20 > > Modified files: > > security/uvscan-dat Makefile distinfo=20 > > Log: > > Update to 4128 virus definitions >=20 > It might be the pride of us that we have much more ports than those > virii, but I wonder how long the lead would last. ;) They're catching up! Quick, commit more ruby viruses^Wports! kris 2001/03/16 13:57:22 PST Modified files: security/uvscan-dat Makefile distinfo Log: Update to 4129 virus definitions Revision Changes Path 1.20 +2 -2 ports/security/uvscan-dat/Makefile http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/security/uvscan-dat/Mak= efile.diff?r1=3D1.19&r2=3D1.20 1.20 +1 -1 ports/security/uvscan-dat/distinfo http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/security/uvscan-dat/dis= tinfo.diff?r1=3D1.19&r2=3D1.20 --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6so0uWry0BWjoQKURAiHRAJ0S2xjnD/WZKekwXooSsLyulvQs6wCg9Coc VNmxcAE8nJ9crbT2IPVEJqk= =sA/1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 15: 1: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E7F37B71A for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from galt@inconnu.isu.edu) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28131; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:00:17 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:00:17 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Neil Blakey-Milner , Dan Langille , Subject: Re: signature (was Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Copies-to: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are we talking DeCSS? I'm wearing it now (hey, it's one of my only white t-shirts, and I had to do a quick white load to tide me over to payday...). Yes, I HAVE worn it in public, and yes, people have noticed it. Mostly because it's in C (we used the Johansen css_auth.c code with a few things #define 'd to fit), but some actually knew what I was doing. The perl code is too new to have printed yet: it took us about 2 weeks to get our batch of css_auth shirts done, but YMMV. On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: >At 10:32 PM +0000 3/15/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> So if the technological measure is ineffective, then it's OK >> to publish and publically distribute it, right? > > Especially if the ease of publication and distribution is a >primary method of demonstrating just how ludicrously silly the >technological measure ever was to begin with. > > Anybody got any of the t-shirts yet? Have you worn them, >especially in public? > >-- >Brad Knowles, > >#!/usr/bin/perl -w ># 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz ># MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout ># arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order ># Usage: ># qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - >$_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( >$m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 >-2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h >=5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ >d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ >$d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ >(($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Be Careful! I have a black belt in sna-fu! Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 15: 6:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A52B37B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:06:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f2GN5PM26938; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:05:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:05:25 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: John Galt Cc: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Neil Blakey-Milner , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: signature (was Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010316150525.A25697@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from galt@inconnu.isu.edu on Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:00:17PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:00:17PM -0700, John Galt wrote: >=20 > Are we talking DeCSS? I'm wearing it now (hey, it's one of my only white > t-shirts, and I had to do a quick white load to tide me over to > payday...). Yes, I HAVE worn it in public, and yes, people have noticed > it. Mostly because it's in C (we used the Johansen css_auth.c code with a > few things #define 'd to fit), but some actually knew what I was doing. > The perl code is too new to have printed yet: it took us about 2 weeks to > get our batch of css_auth shirts done, but YMMV. I regularly wear my "No DVD-CCA" shirt with ccs-auth on the back (it's the Copyleft shirt.) It get's quite a few comments because it's got that big crossed out dvd-cca on the front and every one knows what DVD is, but they don't know about the copy control authority. I like to ware it when I've flying down to the office in LA. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6spw0XY6L6fI4GtQRAs64AJ0U+tYLZ6Nvv7POPj9EwY699gypmwCg3tCa zH6YwbU/YbrXTMs/EhPXuLw= =ubha -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 17:12:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE7F37B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:12:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id f2H1CTC01503; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:12:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:12:28 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Matt Dillon Cc: Jordan Hubbard , juha@saarinen.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.x and BSDi 4.x binary compatible? Message-ID: <20010316171228.T29888@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20010316134215.J29888@fw.wintelcom.net> <20010316162930V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <200103170038.f2H0cAo81963@earth.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200103170038.f2H0cAo81963@earth.backplane.com>; from dillon@earth.backplane.com on Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 04:38:10PM -0800 X-all-your-base: are belong to us. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Matt Dillon [010316 16:38] wrote: > :> Actually, on the same note, I'm planning on flying a 747 jet later > :> this evening, anyone know what I should watch out for? Any tips > :> for a smooth ride? > : > :Yeah, make sure someone else sits in the left front seat. We wouldn't > :want you to total a perfectly good jet aircraft! :) > : > :- Jordan > > Ok, this is getting pathetic, guys! Time to pull out the big guns. *achem* Here are some actual maintenance complaints submitted by US Air Force pilots and the replies from the maintenance crews. "Squawks" are problem listings that pilots generally leave for maintenance crews to fix before next flight. (P)=PROBLEM (S)=SOLUTION (P) Left inside main tire almost needs replacement (S) Almost replaced left inside main tire (P) Test flight OK, except autoland very rough (S) Autoland not installed on this aircraft (P) #2 Propeller seeping prop fluid, (S) #2 Propeller seepage normal - #1 #3 and #4 propellers lack normal seepage (P) Something loose in cockpit (S) Something tightened in cockpit (P) Evidence of leak on right main landing gear (S) Evidence removed (P) DME volume unbelievably loud (S) Volume set to more believable level (P) Dead bugs on windshield (S) Live bugs on order (P) Autopilot in altitude hold mode produces a 200 fpm descent (S) Cannot reproduce problem on ground (P) IFF inoperative (S) IFF always inoperative in OFF mode (P) Friction locks cause throttle levers to stick (S) That's what they're there for (P) Number three engine missing (S) Engine found on right wing after brief search (P) Aircraft handles funny (S) Aircraft warned to straighten up, "fly right", and be serious (P) Target Radar hums (S) Reprogrammed Target Radar to include the words To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 17:29:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chip.itworks.com.au (CPE-61-9-139-251.vic.bigpond.net.au [61.9.139.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CC7037B71A for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gavin@itworks.com.au) Received: (qmail 23798 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 01:31:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gavin) (192.168.1.100) by 192.168.1.1 with SMTP; 17 Mar 2001 01:31:26 -0000 Message-ID: <012301c0ae81$c390e100$6401a8c0@itworks.com.au> From: "Gavin Cameron" To: Subject: Getting IBM to release software for IBM Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:27:53 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I'd like to get a team together of people who would like to see IBM natively support FreeBSD as a platform for software like DB2, Tivoli and WebSphere. I've started a mailing list at freebsd-ibm@lists.itworks.com.au so we can discuss what software we should ask IBM to port without annoying the rest of the people on -chat. What I'd like to see come out of the discussions on the mailing list is a list of software that we'd like to see ported and that we would be willing to purchase and install for ourselves and our clients. I'd also like to come up with a list of resources that we can give to IBM so that they know who/where to contact if they have any problems with the operating system or the porting process. We should also give them a list of benefits to them if they agree to port their software. IBM already use FreeBSD in their InterJet appliance so full support of FreeBSD would be a logical progression. One possibility would also be a port of FreeBSD to their RS/6000 machines. If we can get more IBM support for FreeBSD it would be a great thing for all of us. If you are interested please subscribe to the mailing list by sending an E-mail to freebsd-ibm-subscribe@lists.itworks.com.au. Once subscribed you can send an E-mail to the list by E-mailing freebsd-ibm@lists.itworks.com.au. To give people enough time to subscribe I think we shouldn't start the discussion until 01:00 GMT on Mon 19 March 2000. Cheers Gavin Cameron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 17:51:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B90437B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:51:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from daniel.sobral (p28-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.157]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id KAA07827 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:51:43 +0900 (JST) Received: (from dcs@localhost) by daniel.sobral (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01156 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:48:39 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from dcs) From: "Daniel C. Sobral" Message-Id: <200103170148.KAA01156@daniel.sobral> Subject: No More Beta! X-ELM-OSV: (Our standard violations) hdr-charset=ISO-8859-1 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:48:38 +0900 (JST) Disclaimer: Klaatu Barada Nikto! X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL82 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here is the final word on the subject: Three Betas for the Linuxen-kings under the sky, Seven for the BSD-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Microsoften doomed to die, One for Jordan Hubbard on his dark throne In the Land of FreeBSD where the Stable lies. One Beta to rule them all, One Beta to find them One Beta to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of FreeBSD where the Stable lies. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@there.is.no.bsdconspiracy.net I don't know why anyone would want a computer in their home. -- Ken Olson, president of DEC, 1974 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 18:15:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB6337B71A for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:15:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E0D196AC97; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:45:46 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:45:46 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Gavin Cameron Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting IBM to release software for IBM Message-ID: <20010317124546.G89962@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <012301c0ae81$c390e100$6401a8c0@itworks.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <012301c0ae81$c390e100$6401a8c0@itworks.com.au>; from gavin@itworks.com.au on Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 12:27:53PM +1100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 17 March 2001 at 12:27:53 +1100, Gavin Cameron wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to get a team together of people who would like to see IBM > natively support FreeBSD as a platform for software like DB2, Tivoli > and WebSphere. Want to give me a call? I have some interesting information, but it's too early to tell the world. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 18:17:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D938537B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3BF716AC94; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:47:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:47:01 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Gavin Cameron Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting IBM to release software for IBM Message-ID: <20010317124701.H89962@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <012301c0ae81$c390e100$6401a8c0@itworks.com.au> <20010317124546.G89962@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010317124546.G89962@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 12:45:46PM +1030 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 17 March 2001 at 12:45:46 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 17 March 2001 at 12:27:53 +1100, Gavin Cameron wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to get a team together of people who would like to see IBM >> natively support FreeBSD as a platform for software like DB2, Tivoli >> and WebSphere. > > Want to give me a call? I have some interesting information, but it's > too early to tell the world. *sigh* I should really try to distinguish between 'r' and 'g'. That reply was supposed to go to Gavin only. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 18:25:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A72537B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16465; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:25:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316192412.00b328c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:25:02 -0700 To: "Gavin Cameron" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Getting IBM to release software for IBM In-Reply-To: <012301c0ae81$c390e100$6401a8c0@itworks.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:27 PM 3/16/2001, Gavin Cameron wrote: >Hi all, > >I'd like to get a team together of people who would like to see IBM natively >support FreeBSD as a platform for software like DB2, Tivoli and WebSphere. Good luck! I personally gave up on IBM after they touted their $1 billion investment in Linux. They're Linux lemmings. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 18:29:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailin3.email.bigpond.com (unknown [139.134.6.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C65E37B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:29:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gavin@itworks.com.au) Received: from chip.itworks.com.au ([139.134.4.58]) by mailin3.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GABLT400.F05 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:34:16 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-139-251.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.139.251]) by mail1.bigpond.com (Claudes-Energetic-MailRouter V2.9c 1/6053982); 17 Mar 2001 12:28:54 Received: (qmail 23873 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 02:31:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gavin) (192.168.1.100) by 192.168.1.1 with SMTP; 17 Mar 2001 02:31:09 -0000 Message-ID: <019101c0ae8a$1b8a9240$6401a8c0@itworks.com.au> From: "Gavin Cameron" To: , "Brett Glass" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316192412.00b328c0@localhost> Subject: Re: Getting IBM to release software for IBM Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:29:35 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Good luck! I personally gave up on IBM after they touted their $1 billion > investment in Linux. They're Linux lemmings. > And for that reason alone they need to be educated. Gavin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 20:14:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DE837B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f2H4EUb27439; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA05028; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05024; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:14:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:14:29 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@y.glue.umd.edu To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No More Beta! In-Reply-To: <200103170148.KAA01156@daniel.sobral> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Here is the final word on the subject: > > Three Betas for the Linuxen-kings under the sky, > Seven for the BSD-lords in their halls of stone, > Nine for Microsoften doomed to die, > One for Jordan Hubbard on his dark throne > In the Land of FreeBSD where the Stable lies. > One Beta to rule them all, One Beta to find them > One Beta to bring them all and in the darkness bind them > In the Land of FreeBSD where the Stable lies. Values of beeta will give rise to Dom! Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 22:25: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185A237B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18054; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:24:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316204324.00c7e4d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:52:53 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15025.48609.728194.582344@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316000411.00e3dcb0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010316000411.00e3dcb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:16 AM 3/16/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >I already pointed out the problem with the quotes. Your response to my >request for the context was "go find it yourself." Lame excuse! If you can't use the Net, it's not my fault. >Come on - show me a >single direct quote where he says "go steal programs". Or even two >sentences, one that follows the other, where he says "publishers call >sharing piracy. Share as much as you can". Better yet, provide a URL >for that. His Web site was once more explicit about this, but in a good example of Orwellian revisionism he quietly toned it down. So, you'll need to go to any place where Stallman speaks. He's quite candid in front of live audiences that he considers to be sympathetic. I might be able to obtain some transcripts of his speech at the 1999 LinuxWorld, which wasn't published online, in which he did directly advocate piracy. As he did in personal conversations with Yours Truly. >You should be flattered that I chose to imitate your rhetorical >technics. Oh, I'm sooooooo flattered. Alas, you fail to imitate me on one important way: You're not thinking critically. You've apparently been taken in by Stallman's fraud. >I'm sure they learned something. Most of them learned that responding >to what you write is a waste of time, because you aren't going to pay >attention. I pay attention. That's why I am seeking to raise awareness about Stallman, the GPL, and their true aims and effects. When you see programmers irrationally slitting their own throats and spouting propraganda, and a war brewing that's going to hurt EVERYONE, it's time to expose the demagogue for what he is. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 22:25:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E01037B71A for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:25:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18063; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:24:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316232156.00a9ef00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:24:43 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No More Beta! In-Reply-To: <200103170148.KAA01156@daniel.sobral> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:48 PM 3/16/2001, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > One Beta to rule them all, One Beta to find them Since when can you find all of the bugs with one beta? If you want to have a hot product, you need to test more thoroughly. In other words: Mo hotta, mo beta. --Brett (Who, by the way, is anxious to install 4.3-RELEASE on some new systems -- but only if it's well tested first.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 22:35: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F7137B718; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:34:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail1.siemens.de (mail1.siemens.de [139.23.33.14]) by david.siemens.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f2H6YtH11785; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 07:34:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail1.siemens.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f2H6Yti28382; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 07:34:55 +0100 (MET) Received: (from localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f2H6YtS11931; Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 07:34:54 +0100 From: Andre Albsmeier To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anybody knows what happened to CTM ? Message-ID: <20010317073454.A84092@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Echelon: BND CIA NSA Mossad KGB MI6 IRA detonator nuclear assault strike Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I haven't seen a single CTM since Mar 13 09:36. Not for cvs, not for src-4, not for ports. Does somebody know what's the problem? -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 22:37:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9ADCE37B718 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:37:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 10834 invoked by uid 100); 17 Mar 2001 06:37:40 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15027.1588.271684.905744@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 00:37:40 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316204324.00c7e4d0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316000411.00e3dcb0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010316204324.00c7e4d0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > >You should be flattered that I chose to imitate your rhetorical > >technics. > Oh, I'm sooooooo flattered. Alas, you fail to imitate me on one > important way: You're not thinking critically. You've apparently > been taken in by Stallman's fraud. The only part of your "critical thinking" I'm not imitating is that I'm giving you a chance to prove your point, instead of blindly repeating the facts as I think they are. I'm perfectly willing to believe that Stallman advocates theft. I've seen him in action socially, and have firsthand accounts of his dating skills from my kids godmother. To anyone who knows him, an expedient lie is clearly possible for him. On the other hand, I don't think he would extend that to libel, which you apparently have no problem doing. As a final note, my stance on copyrights dates from the publishers attacks on our rights before the publication of the GNU manifesto and the founding of the FSF. You are wasting your time trying to influence me demonizing Stallman. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 16 22:49:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE0137B719 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA72873; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:48:46 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:48:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: signature (was Re: copyright issues regarding FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20010316150525.A25697@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Brooks Davis wrote: > I regularly wear my "No DVD-CCA" shirt with ccs-auth on the back (it's > the Copyleft shirt.) It get's quite a few comments because it's got that > big crossed out dvd-cca on the front and every one knows what DVD is, > but they don't know about the copy control authority. I like to ware > it when I've flying down to the office in LA. ^^^^ Dr. Freud; Paging Dr. Freud... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 5:41:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708C137B719 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 05:41:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p31-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.32]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id WAA28675; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:41:04 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3AB368B9.E72B1D3E@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:38:01 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No More Beta! References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316232156.00a9ef00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 06:48 PM 3/16/2001, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > > One Beta to rule them all, One Beta to find them > > Since when can you find all of the bugs with one > beta? If you want to have a hot product, you need > to test more thoroughly. > > In other words: Mo hotta, mo beta. Aha, but that's why the BSD-lords have seven betas in their halls of stone. The microsoften have 9, but they are still doomed anyway. The linuxen-lords have 3, and they really could use a few more. It's just jkh in his dark throne that makes do with a single beta. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.secret.bsdconspiracy.net It's a rewarding life, but hey, somebody has to have all the fun, right? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 5:49:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD06037B718 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 05:49:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f2HDn9T18905; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:49:09 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <012301c0ae81$c390e100$6401a8c0@itworks.com.au> References: <012301c0ae81$c390e100$6401a8c0@itworks.com.au> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:46:07 +0100 To: "Gavin Cameron" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Getting IBM to release software for IBM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:27 PM +1100 3/17/01, Gavin Cameron wrote: > IBM already use FreeBSD in their InterJet appliance so full support of > FreeBSD would be a logical progression. That's only because they bought the company lock, stock, and barrel. I'm told that certain IBM Netfinity servers running FreeBSD can replace Sun machines costing hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions of dollars) more, at least in certain applications. But do you honestly think that this is going to be enough to convince them to divert money away from Linux support? I don't think so. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* */ /* Thanks to Phil Carmody for additional tweaks. */ /* */ /* Length: 434 bytes (excluding unnecessary newlines) */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ #define m(i)(x[i]^s[i+84])<< unsigned char x[5],y,s[2048];main(n){for(read(0,x,5);read(0,s,n=2048);write(1,s ,n))if(s[y=s[13]%8+20]/16%4==1){int i=m(1)17^256+m(0)8,k=m(2)0,j=m(4)17^m(3)9^k *2-k%8^8,a=0,c=26;for(s[y]-=16;--c;j*=2)a=a*2^i&1,i=i/2^j&1<<24;for(j=127;++jy)c+=y=i^i/8^i>>4^i>>12,i=i>>8^y<<17,a^=a>>14,y=a^a*8^a<<6,a=a>>8^y<<9,k=s [j],k="7Wo~'G_\216"[k&7]+2^"cr3sfw6v;*k+>/n."[k>>4]*2^k*257/8,s[j]=k^(k&k*2&34) *6^c+~y;}} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 6:21:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B14837B71A; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:21:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA73186; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:21:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: More BETA evilness Re: BETA induced nervousness References: <200103170105.RAA55369@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Mar 2001 15:21:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Rodney W. Grimes"'s message of "Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:05:29 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: > A rose is a rose by any other name... "That which we call a rose / by any other name would smell as sweet", you acultural git. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 6:31:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shrike.dti.ad.jp (shrike.dti.ad.jp [202.216.228.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D7B37B719 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:31:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pasqual@hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) Received: from harumi.hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp (PPP60.soka-ap.dti.ne.jp [210.170.224.78]) by shrike.dti.ad.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with SMTP id XAA09395 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:31:15 +0900 (JST) Received: (qmail 842 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 23:42:17 +0900 Received: from localhost.alles.or.jp (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.alles.or.jp with SMTP; 17 Mar 2001 23:42:17 +0900 To: treznor@sunflower.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall ? From: Ajith Pasqual In-Reply-To: <000601c0ae4a$8cb41940$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> References: <20010317032739E.pasqual@hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> <000601c0ae4a$8cb41940$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.2 on Emacs 19.34 / Mule 2.3 (SUETSUMUHANA) X-PGP-fingerprint: 5A A1 E6 D0 FF 96 FB F8 DE 23 EF 06 A1 76 94 E9 X-PGP-Public-Key-Location: finger -l pasqual@hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp or Home Page X-URL: http://www.hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~pasqual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010317234216V.pasqual@hal.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:42:16 +0900 X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 44 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I received the order confirmation on Friday noon. Guess I was being bit impatient :) Anyway 4 days to process a single order is a long time by any means. Ajith. > I ordered from them last night and this morning they called to get my credit > card information. Even though I entered the information on the webpage. Did > you supply a valid phone number? > > Tyler > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ajith Pasqual > To: > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 12:27 PM > Subject: FreeBSD Mall ? > > > | > | Hi All, > | > | Does anyone know what has happened to FreeBSD Mall ? > | > | I placed an order for Greg's Complete FreeBSD Book with CD Set on Monday > | morning (to send as a gift). > | > | I received the automated acknowledgement that the order has been received > and > | that I would be getting order confirmation within 1-2 business days. > | > | But I am yet to get any replies to few Emails I have sent asking the > status of > | my order. No one was there to pick up the phone either!! > | > | Has it gone bankcrupt ? > | > | Ajith. > | > | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > | with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 7: 5:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.com (mailout00.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3DE37B71A for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 07:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.cichlids.com) Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.com by mailout00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14eIGj-0002rL-06; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:05:25 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.225.195.199]) by fmrl00.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 14eIGY-1QfzqyC; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:05:14 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116FAAB44; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:06:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 999C014A3B; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:05:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:05:37 +0100 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No More Beta! Message-ID: <20010317160537.B2243@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <200103170148.KAA01156@daniel.sobral> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200103170148.KAA01156@daniel.sobral>; from dcs@newsguy.com on Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 10:48:38AM +0900 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@cichlids.cichlids.com (Alexander Langer) X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Daniel C. Sobral (dcs@newsguy.com): > Three Betas for the Linuxen-kings under the sky, > Seven for the BSD-lords in their halls of stone, > Nine for Microsoften doomed to die, > One for Jordan Hubbard on his dark throne > In the Land of FreeBSD where the Stable lies. > One Beta to rule them all, One Beta to find them > One Beta to bring them all and in the darkness bind them > In the Land of FreeBSD where the Stable lies. YOU ROCK! ;-))) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 9:35:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC9437B718 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22916; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:34:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010317102735.00dc8320@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:34:18 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15027.1588.271684.905744@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316204324.00c7e4d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010316000411.00e3dcb0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010316204324.00c7e4d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:37 PM 3/16/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >The only part of your "critical thinking" I'm not imitating is that >I'm giving you a chance to prove your point, instead of blindly >repeating the facts as I think they are. No, you're blindly repeating quite a few "facts as [you] think they are" -- about publishers especially. It just so happens that I'm a publisher of music myself (as well as a composer), and all of the sweeping generalizations you make about the "evil" publishers do not apply. >I'm perfectly willing to believe that Stallman advocates theft. I've >seen him in action socially, and have firsthand accounts of his dating >skills from my kids godmother. Ask anyone female who has encountered him in recent memory about the way he leers at anyone of that gender (though this particular behavior is unrelated to the issue at hand). My wife thought that it was not only crass but pathetic. >To anyone who knows him, an expedient >lie is clearly possible for him. On the other hand, I don't think he >would extend that to libel, which you apparently have no problem >doing. Everything I have said about Stallman is true. Therefore, it's not libel. >As a final note, my stance on copyrights dates from the publishers >attacks on our rights before the publication of the GNU manifesto and >the founding of the FSF. In that case, you should learn more about the logistics of publishing. Not all of us are so bad. > You are wasting your time trying to influence >me demonizing Stallman. And now we come full circle. My goal is not to "demonize" Stallman, nor is this what I am doing. I am, rather, providing truthful information that puts his words and actions in context, so that others will understand his true aims. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 9:39:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD43737B718 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:39:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22955; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:39:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010317103743.00c53240@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:39:16 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No More Beta! In-Reply-To: <200103170148.KAA01156@daniel.sobral> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:48 PM 3/16/2001, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > One Beta to bring them all and in the darkness bind them By the way, shouldn't that be, "and in the darkness BIND them?" Or should we be using djbdns considering the mess with BIND? (I guess that wouldn't scan, though.) ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 9:55:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0597537B71C for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:55:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 29252 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 17:55:23 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 17 Mar 2001 17:55:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 5736 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 17:55:28 -0000 Received: from du211161.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.211.161]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 17 Mar 2001 17:55:28 -0000 Message-ID: <3AB3A4A9.858C29A5@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:53:45 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: More BETA evilness Re: BETA induced nervousness References: <200103170105.RAA55369@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: > > A rose is a rose by any other name... > > "That which we call a rose / by any other name would smell as sweet", > you acultural git. "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose, is a rose." --Gertrude Stein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 10:33:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41DA37B718 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23297; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:32:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010317111713.00d1f470@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:32:51 -0700 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: More BETA evilness Re: BETA induced nervousness Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3AB3A4A9.858C29A5@mail.ptd.net> References: <200103170105.RAA55369@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:53 AM 3/17/2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >"Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose, is a rose." > >--Gertrude Stein http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/5256/subsounds/roseynose.wav Where ground is soft, most often grows... Arise! Arouse! A rose! A rose! [The Blue Meanie's nose abruptly grows flowers] A rosy nose? --Jeremy Hillary Boob, Ph.D. (From the Beatles' "Yellow Submarine") To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 11:13:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from larry.compuage.com (larry.compuage.com [208.233.246.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4924237B718 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@compuage.com) Received: from hnet04.kellyhendrix.com (unverified [208.233.247.37]) by larry.compuage.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:09:54 -0500 Received: by hnet04.kellyhendrix.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7C8A118CB0; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:15:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:15:15 -0500 From: Kelly Hendrix To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Fwd: Computer Stupidities Message-ID: <20010317141515.A15942@hnet04.kellyhendrix.com> Reply-To: Kelly Hendrix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Freebsd-Version: FreeBSD 4.3-BETA i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you got a couple of hours to kill sometime, visit this site for a few laughs. http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/ -- ______________________________________________________________________ | There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a | | miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. | | | | Albert Einstein (1879-1955) | |______________________________________________________________________| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 17 12:38:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 802E537B718 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 32887 invoked by uid 100); 17 Mar 2001 20:38:15 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15027.52023.253386.182809@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:38:15 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010317114409.00a6c960@mail85.pair.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315232521.00ccf340@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315180735.00c71720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315075228.00e60ac0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315005732.00b5cef0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314185307.00e6ab00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314182353.00ba5880@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314170008.00d86960@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010314132512.04acb100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010313211657.00e294a0@localhost> <3AADC096.DE27817@outpost.co.nz> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311235053.00e26140@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010311230800.00e19bd0@localhost> <15020.28993.192354.986367@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010312223234.0445f3a0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20010317114409.00a6c960@mail85.pair.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav types: > You are both intelligent men, you both have made your point, and neither > is ever going to convince the other. So, why don't you just agree to > disagree, and talk about something else. PLEASE! Oh, it wass obvious that Brett's mind was completely unchangeable a while back, and he either couldn't or wouldn't actually try and prove his points. I simply wanted to see how he would react to someone using his own technics, instead of simply starting to ignore him. Having found out, I'll stop now. Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message