From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 30 16:20:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE0737B405 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-53-8.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.53.8]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBV0KYf28951 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:20:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2FAFF2.C7C5808C@nobaloney.net> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:23:14 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? References: <20011229230235.Q46948-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ryan Thompson wrote: > Perhaps more correctly, we should say that when the chicken vfork()s, > nothing really happens, but some normal chicken code gets executed. > Assuming the normal chicken code doesn't change the state of the > chicken, you have two chickens for the price of one. This sounds like quantum chickens to me. Where's Scully when we need him? Jeff -- Jeff Lasman nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 30 18:16: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8D137B405 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.132.248.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.132.248] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16KrzZ-0000NV-00; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:15:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:16:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: [ ... PayPal not releasing funds easily ... ] > Uh-oh. This is a sign that they may not HAVE enough money to pay > out all of their accounts. Better get yours out as soon as > possible before the Ponzi scheme collapses or is shut down by > the government. All this means is that they are operating on float, and will make it very hard (as in "like pulling teeth") to get your money out, though not impossible. Chase and other VISA card providers, as well as some of the other card vendors have similar practices; for example, Chase will take overages as credit toward the account, but will not count it as you having made a payment. This means that if you overpay to cover your minimum payment (or even the entire balance), you still get charged a "late fee" for not making a payment (even if afterward, you still have a positive balance). The PayPal approach is very similar to any company that provides factor financing services, or any other service resulting in a rediscounting of the paper: they take the float in exchange for their service. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 30 19: 7:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7708E37B42B for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pittgoth.com (zbay3-149.fyi.net [206.80.157.149]) by pittgoth.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBV38DD03780 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:08:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darklogik@pittgoth.com) Message-ID: <3C2FD744.5040309@pittgoth.com> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:11:00 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010628 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Advocacy project where in time and space? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I am sending this email because the Advocacy project link is down, and then I was told that the project is not being maintained. I did offer to take it over, but was told to send an email here first, to find out information. So basicly i'm lost in the middle of "I don't know who to speak to, but will take it over completely" Thanks Tom Rhodes www.Pittgoth.com www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 30 22:15:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0491637B429 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:15:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from hsa023.pool012.at101.earthlink.net ([216.249.83.23] helo=earthlink.net) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Kvj9-00011b-00; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:15:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3C300230.9060506@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:14:08 -0800 From: Raul Rodriguez User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011215 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Lasman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? References: <20011229230235.Q46948-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> <3C2FAFF2.C7C5808C@nobaloney.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeff Lasman wrote: >SNIP > >. Where's Scully when we need >him? > >Jeff > You mean "her", right? http://www.thex-files.com/infobase/bios/characters/char_d_scully.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 0:14:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C386F37B422 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15290; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:14:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231010840.01d814d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:14:33 -0700 To: Ryan Thompson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , In-Reply-To: <20011229230235.Q46948-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011229182741.02ff21a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:41 PM 12/29/2001, Ryan Thompson wrote: >It is not necessary to exec() the chicken following a fork(). Actually, either an execve(2) or prompt termination of the child process is expected. From the vfork(2) man page: >Vfork() can be used to create new processes without fully copying the ad- >dress space of the old process, which is horrendously inefficient in a >paged environment. It is useful when the purpose of fork(2) would have >been to create a new system context for an execve(2). Vfork() differs >from fork(2) in that the child borrows the parent's memory and thread of >control until a call to execve(2) or an exit (either by a call to exit(3) >or abnormally). The parent process is suspended while the child is using >its resources. All of which, by the way, can be done either with or without Colonel threads. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 0:19:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A606D37B423 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15328; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:19:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:19:33 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:16 PM 12/30/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >The PayPal approach is very similar to any company that provides >factor financing services, or any other service resulting in a >rediscounting of the paper: they take the float in exchange for >their service. "Float" is one thing. Forcibly tying up people's money without their consent is quite another. I suspect that if there were ever a "run" on PayPal's accounts it would be discovered that it did not have the funds to cover what it owed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 0:38:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF9F37B4CF for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) id fBV8cJs24287; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:38:19 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Message-ID: <20011231003819.A24218@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 01:19:33AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 01:19:33AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:16 PM 12/30/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >The PayPal approach is very similar to any company that provides > >factor financing services, or any other service resulting in a > >rediscounting of the paper: they take the float in exchange for > >their service. > > "Float" is one thing. Forcibly tying up people's money without > their consent is quite another. > > I suspect that if there were ever a "run" on PayPal's accounts > it would be discovered that it did not have the funds to cover > what it owed. So, you are basically saying the PayPal is a ponzi scheme? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 0:50:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD1737B41B for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 00:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15561; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:50:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231014644.00e7af00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:50:27 -0700 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011231003819.A24218@mooseriver.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:38 AM 12/31/2001, Josef Grosch wrote: >So, you are basically saying the PayPal is a ponzi scheme? A Ponzi scheme is a bit different in that it claims to be an investment. PayPal doesn't claim to give users a gain on their money. But they likely have high overhead (due to the costs of employee salaries, bandwidth, fraud, fees paid to creit card companies, etc.) and could well spend substantially more than they can make on float. My suspicion is that their liabilities exceed their assets as a result on this, and that they could therefore not sustain a run. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 1:31:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B7B37B624 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBV9VFZ87835; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:31:15 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <01db01c191dd$e5675940$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , "Brett Glass" Cc: "Terry Lambert" , References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <20011231003819.A24218@mooseriver.com> Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:31:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef writes: > So, you are basically saying the PayPal is > a ponzi scheme? Not at all. No financial institution has enough funds on hand to handle complete withdrawal of all funds on deposit simultaneously. However, I don't think that PayPal is being completely ethical in their handling of my money, at least. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 6:42:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BF237B419 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 06:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 24E2BFC4; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:42:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:42:13 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass Cc: Ryan Thompson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? Message-ID: <20011231084213.A32393@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011229182741.02ff21a0@localhost> <20011229230235.Q46948-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231010840.01d814d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231010840.01d814d0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 01:14:33AM -0700 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 01:14:33AM -0700 I heard the voice of Brett Glass, and lo! it spake thus: > At 10:41 PM 12/29/2001, Ryan Thompson wrote: > > >It is not necessary to exec() the chicken following a fork(). > > Actually, either an execve(2) or prompt termination of the > child process is expected. From the vfork(2) man page: Expected and intended, yes, but not required. Things just get really weird if you don't. This happens a lot on our sister OS, FreeLSD. > All of which, by the way, can be done either with or without > Colonel threads. ;-) True, but have you seen the Colonel lately? I gots ta get me some of those threads! -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 10:30:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4E237B42C for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-52-67.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.52.67]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBVIV4f10982; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:31:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3C30AF7C.CA5A041B@nobaloney.net> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:33:32 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >PayPal currently owes me over $400. They won't let me withdraw it, they > >won't let me transfer it, and they won't let me close the account. > > Uh-oh. This is a sign that they may not HAVE enough money to pay > out all of their accounts. Better get yours out as soon as > possible before the Ponzi scheme collapses or is shut down by > the government. While this of course may be true, Brett, I'm not sure where your statement neessarily follows Anthony's. I was just able to talk to a PayPal representative with absolutely NO delay. I logged in, clicked on "Help", ignored the top ten questions, and went on to contact them. On the same page where you begin the process of sending them a form there's a toll-free (for the U.S., unfortunately) number. One of the options, "6" I believe (but I'm not sure), gave me a human in literally seconds. Jeff -- Jeff Lasman Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 10:47:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC9737B428 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-52-67.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.52.67]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBVIlif11689; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:47:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3C30B364.61C394A0@nobaloney.net> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:50:12 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231014644.00e7af00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > A Ponzi scheme is a bit different in that it claims to be > an investment. PayPal doesn't claim to give users a gain on > their money. PayPal does offer a "money-market" return on money. I've never been willing to join the "money-market", as it doesn't really give what I consider to be a good return for the perceived increased risk. The money-market account is handled by an outside investment firm, and the signup form comes with complete disclosure as required by U.S. law. It was after I read the disclosure that I decided not to sign up for it. There are several ways to get money out of the PayPal account. One is to do manual money-transfers; I've never had one take less than four days. Another is to set up automatic sweeps; I've done that as well. All your collected PayPal funds are transferred nightly (probably only during banking days) to the bank account. Those transfers may take as long as four days as well. Yet another way is to use the PayPal card; it's a MasterCard and it does NOT say "debit card" on it; in fact I've used it successfully for automobile rentals; something that's very hard to do with "debit cards". I have no idea what Anthony's problem is with PayPal, and I'm not belittling it in any way, but I'm sure there's at least a perceived reason on PayPal's part as to why they're holding the money on his account. I hope he gets it resolved soon, and lets us know the resolution. For what it's worth, PayPal got an investment (read: cash infusion) either early 2001 or perhaps late 2000, from Providian Financial; a major credit-card bank. They also offer a real PayPal credit card, presumably through their relationship with Providian. They started as a free service to individuals, they've done a lot to change their plan to make money. Though my own personal exposure is NOT great (generally under us$1000) I hope they stay around for a long time just for the convenience. That said, I just had an "international" customer (in Australia) not be able to use it to send me money until he got the "numbers" off his credit card statement ; I am looking for another option for international customers, but I don't take in enough money from international customers by credit-card to make a merchant account a cost-effective option. > But they likely have high overhead (due to the > costs of employee salaries, bandwidth, fraud, fees paid > to creit card companies, etc.) and could well spend > substantially more than they can make on float. They also collect fees from their business customers; often about the same as aggressive contracts that good-credit companies can negotiate directly with merchant banks, so if they can't make it, then can any merchant bank? Or in other words, are their expenses that much more than (for example) authorize.net? > My suspicion > is that their liabilities exceed their assets as a result on > this, and that they could therefore not sustain a run. No bank can sustain a "run", Brett. I hope you'll eventually concede that . That said, about ten years ago I was Senior Analyst at the U.S.'s largest privately owned mortgage bank. We regularly borrowed millions of dollars from Bank of America. There was never a day on which we could have paid it back. And since we borrowed it "float" loans that hadn't been approved yet, it wasn't backed by what the banking industry calls "paper". The bank was sold to Norwest after the founder died and the surviving family didn't want to keep running it; they got a lot of money out of the deal, and even funded/endowed the "Anderson School of Business" at the University of California. There was never any insolvency, even though at one time we had 2,000 employees processing mortgage loans and spent over us$1,000,000 a year on software licenses. And there really isn't a lot of money made on individual loans either. Norwest eventually bought Wells Fargo and changed their name to Wells Fargo, but the office here still employs somewhere in the neighborhood of 500. I'd guess they don't borrow millions of dollars a day from Bank of America anymore . Jeff -- Jeff Lasman Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 10:48:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF6B37B41B for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-52-67.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.52.67]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBVInPf11759; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:49:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C30B3C9.35A30C64@nobaloney.net> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:51:53 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Raul Rodriguez , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? References: <20011229230235.Q46948-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> <3C2FAFF2.C7C5808C@nobaloney.net> <3C300230.9060506@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Raul Rodriguez wrote: > >. Where's Scully when we need > >him? > > > >Jeff > > > You mean "her", right? > http://www.thex-files.com/infobase/bios/characters/char_d_scully.html Of course. I've seen the show a grand total of three times, so I forget . Jeff -- Jeff Lasman nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 10:57:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1DA37B434 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0439.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.184] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16L7cN-0002TM-00; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:57:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3C30B503.54AEF8B7@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:57:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:16 PM 12/30/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >The PayPal approach is very similar to any company that provides > >factor financing services, or any other service resulting in a > >rediscounting of the paper: they take the float in exchange for > >their service. > > "Float" is one thing. Forcibly tying up people's money without > their consent is quite another. Read the "terms of service"; you gave your consent. Also, as was noted, the same is true of gas station credit card purchases, and the "tie up" is transient. In the PayPal case, you *can* get the money released, so it's not "forcibly tying up", it's just a royal pain. > I suspect that if there were ever a "run" on PayPal's accounts > it would be discovered that it did not have the funds to cover > what it owed. They aren't a bank; they don't lend; and they are legally prevented from touching the principle for operating costs (they can only have the interest on the float). You need to become a little better acquainted with the rules that govern the financial services industry in the U.S., I think (I have relatives in this industry, and have helped with analysis of packages). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 10:59:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B113A37B435 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0439.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.184] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16L7el-0005Ke-00; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:59:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3C30B597.75EDE4FE@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:59:35 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231014644.00e7af00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:38 AM 12/31/2001, Josef Grosch wrote: > >So, you are basically saying the PayPal is a ponzi scheme? > > A Ponzi scheme is a bit different in that it claims to be > an investment. PayPal doesn't claim to give users a gain on > their money. But they likely have high overhead (due to the > costs of employee salaries, bandwidth, fraud, fees paid > to creit card companies, etc.) and could well spend > substantially more than they can make on float. My suspicion > is that their liabilities exceed their assets as a result on > this, and that they could therefore not sustain a run. You're wrong. They aren't allowed to touch the money, only the interest on the money, for which they do not give interest. Read their S-1 filings. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 11:33:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554B637B417 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20605; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:32:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231123207.01eca7d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:32:50 -0700 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Cc: "Terry Lambert" , In-Reply-To: <01db01c191dd$e5675940$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <20011231003819.A24218@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:31 AM 12/31/2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Not at all. No financial institution has enough funds on hand to handle >complete withdrawal of all funds on deposit simultaneously. PayPal isn't a bank. Or, in fact, a financial institution of any kind. It's a funds transfer service. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 11:36:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F1D37B436 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20644; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:36:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231123448.01ec72a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:36:39 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C30B503.54AEF8B7@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:57 AM 12/31/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >> "Float" is one thing. Forcibly tying up people's money without >> their consent is quite another. > >Read the "terms of service"; you gave your consent. Maybe YOU gave your consent. I stopped halfway through the registration process because I began to get an inkling of what was really going on. And got spammed as a result (good thing I used a unique address I could turn off). --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 11:38: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B490C37B440 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20668; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:37:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231123710.01ec7e50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:37:41 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C30B597.75EDE4FE@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231014644.00e7af00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:59 AM 12/31/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >You're wrong. They aren't allowed to touch the money, only >the interest on the money, for which they do not give interest. I'm skeptical. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 12: 7:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F53037B41B for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0439.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.184] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16L8i7-0004GU-00; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:07:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3C30C56A.5334644A@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:07:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231014644.00e7af00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231123710.01ec7e50@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:59 AM 12/31/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >You're wrong. They aren't allowed to touch the money, only > >the interest on the money, for which they do not give interest. > > I'm skeptical. Of what's legal, or of what they are doing? If you want to accuse them of fraud, talk to you state's attorneys general; I'd hate to find myself on the wrong side of a libel lawsuit, personally. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 31 12:53:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B7F37B41C for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:53:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBVKr1V81980; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:53:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <021401c1923d$259533c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeff Lasman" Cc: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> <3C2FCA60.99829AA7@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231011757.01d72730@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011231014644.00e7af00@localhost> <3C30B364.61C394A0@nobaloney.net> Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:53:01 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeff writes: > I have no idea what Anthony's problem is with > PayPal, and I'm not belittling it in any way, > but I'm sure there's at least a perceived > reason on PayPal's part as to why they're > holding the money on his account. They refuse to validate the account, even though I followed their instructions and sent them all the information they requested by fax. As far as I can tell, the reason they haven't validated the account is that they are too stupid to understand how anything outside Omaha actually works, and they are unwilling to learn. > That said, I just had an "international" customer > (in Australia) not be able to use it to send me > money until he got the "numbers" off his credit > card statement ; ... Yes. That is my situation also. The problem is that the "numbers" PayPal uses are non-standard information that is not necessarily carried in transactions passed to foreign banks (store numbers, specifically--they are stripped when transactions reach my account). Explaining this to them seems to have no effect. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message