From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 31 11:26:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shared1-mail.whowhere.com (shared1-batch.whowhere.com [209.185.123.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 308DC37B41E for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by shared1-mail.whowhere.com; Sun Mar 31 11:26:35 2002 To: asso@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:26:35 +0100 From: "nkala MERIMBE" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: nkalamerimbe@eudoramail.com X-Expiredinmiddle: true X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: RE: PLEASE ASSIST ME.( CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL.) X-Sender-Ip: 213.251.169.58 Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org CONFIDENCIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL. MERIMBE NKALA, NEDERLAND. Tel: 0031-612-687-504. ATTN:! !! !!! You may be surprised to receive this letter from me since you do not know me personally. The purpose of my introduction is that I am MERIMBE NKALA, the first son of NKALA NDLOVU ,the most popular black farmer in Zimbabwe who was recently murdered in the land dispute in my country. I got your contact through network online hence decided to write you. Before the death of my father, he had taken me to Johannesburg to deposit the sum of US8.5 Million (Eight Million, Five Hundred United States dollars)in one of the private security company, as he foresaw the looming danger in Zimbabwe this money was deposited in a box as gem stones to avoid much demurrage from security company. This amount was meant for the purchase of new machines and chemicals for the Farms and establishment of new farms in Swaziland. This land problem came when Zimbabwean President Mr.Robert Mugabe introduced a new Land Act Reform wholly affected the rich white farmers and some few black farmers.And this resulted to the killing and mob action by Zimbabwean war veterans and some lunatics in the society. In fact a lot of people were killed because of this Land reform Act for which my father was one of the victims. It is against this background that, I and my family fled Zimbabwe for fear of our lives and are currently staying in the Netherlands where we are seeking political asylum and moreso have decided to transfer my fathers money to a more reliable foreign account. since the law of Netherlands prohibits a refugee (asylum seeker) to open any bank account or to be involved in any financial transaction throughout the territorial zone of Netherlands, As the eldest son of my father, I am saddled with the responsibility of seeking a genuine foreign account where this money could be transferred without the knowledge of my government who are bent on taking everything we have got. The South African government seems to be playing along with them. I am faced with the dilemma of moving this amount of money out of South Africa for fear of going through the same experience in future, both countries have similar political history. As a businessman,I am seeking for a partner who I have to entrust my future and of my family in his hands, I must let you know that this transaction is risk free. If you accept to assist me and my family,all I want you to do for me, is to arrangements with the security company to clear the consignment(funds) from their afiliate office here in the Netherlands as i have already given directives for the consignment to be brought to the Netherlands from South Africa.But before then all modalities will have to be put in place e.g change of ownership to the consignment and This money I intend to use for investment. I have two options for you. Firstly you can choose to have certain percentage of the money for nominating your account for this transaction. Or you can go into partnership with me for the proper profitable investment of the money in your country. Whichever the option you want, feel free to notify me. I have also mapped out 5% of this money for all kinds of expenses incurred in the process of this transaction. If you do not prefer a partnership I am willing to give you 15% of the money while the remaining 80% will be for my investment in your country. Contact me with the above telephone and E-mail numbers while I implore you to maintain the absolute secrecy required in this transaction. Thanks, GOD BLESS YOU Yours Faithfully, NKALA MERIMBE. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 31 14:18:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C1437B41D for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 14:18:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05480 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 15:18:15 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 15:18:11 -0700 To: chat@freeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: PLEASE ASSIST ME.( CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:26 PM 3/31/2002, nkala MERIMBE wrote: > CONFIDENCIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL. > > >MERIMBE NKALA, >NEDERLAND. >Tel: 0031-612-687-504. > >ATTN:! !! !!! > >You may be surprised to receive this letter from me >since you do not know me personally. The purpose of my >introduction is that I am MERIMBE NKALA, the first >son of NKALA NDLOVU ,the most popular black farmer in >Zimbabwe who was recently murdered in the land dispute in my country. I got your contact through network online hence decided to write you. Before the death of my father, he had taken me to Johannesburg to deposit the sum of US8.5 Million (Eight Million, Five Hundred United States dollars)in one of the private security company, as he foresaw the looming danger in Zimbabwe this money was deposited in a box as gem stones to avoid much demurrage from security company. This amount was meant for the purchase of new machines and chemicals for the Farms and establishment of new farms in Swaziland. First Nigeria, now Zimbabwe. The "bunco" spammers are diversifying. I wonder how many people actually fall for these transparent scams? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 31 16:52:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5AE437B416 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17111 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Apr 2002 00:52:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:52:30 -0600 From: Tim To: Brad Knowles Cc: Benjamin Krueger , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020401005230.GB17019@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020329205439.E7895@rain.macguire.net> <20020330050100.GA17537@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 04:55:42PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Second, he also said he welcomes factual corrections but then waives > > his hand over all of Dan's response. > > If *you* give me corrections, or someone else on this list gives > me corrections, I am likely to pay attention. Beep. You already told me that unless I can show experience or talent similar to yours, you don't believe I would have anything to add. Since I can never have your talent for obfuscation, I shall respectifully bow out of this conversation. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 31 17:18:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out020.verizon.net (out020pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BBAA37B41D for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net ([4.34.145.186]) by out020.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020401011832.TYU5495.out020.verizon.net@gte.net>; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:18:32 -0600 Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA49913; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:18:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:18:54 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PLEASE ASSIST ME.( CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL.) Message-ID: <20020331171854.D41726@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 03:18:11PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Which license was the scam licensed under? [RC] On Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 03:18:11PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:26 PM 3/31/2002, nkala MERIMBE wrote: > > > CONFIDENCIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL. > > > > > >MERIMBE NKALA, > >NEDERLAND. > >Tel: 0031-612-687-504. > > > >ATTN:! !! !!! > > > >You may be surprised to receive this letter from me > >since you do not know me personally. The purpose of my > >introduction is that I am MERIMBE NKALA, the first > >son of NKALA NDLOVU ,the most popular black farmer in > >Zimbabwe who was recently murdered in the land dispute in my country. I got your contact through network online hence decided to write you. Before the death of my father, he had taken me to Johannesburg to deposit the sum of US8.5 Million (Eight Million, Five Hundred United States dollars)in one of the private security company, as he foresaw the looming danger in Zimbabwe this money was deposited in a box as gem stones to avoid much demurrage from security company. This amount was meant for the purchase of new machines and chemicals for the Farms and establishment of new farms in Swaziland. > > First Nigeria, now Zimbabwe. The "bunco" spammers are diversifying. > I wonder how many people actually fall for these transparent scams? > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 31 20:13:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130EB37B41F for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:13:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08068; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:12:50 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331211208.00b84d60@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:12:47 -0700 To: Robert Clark From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PLEASE ASSIST ME.( CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL.) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020331171854.D41726@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:18 PM 3/31/2002, Robert Clark wrote: >Which license was the scam licensed under? > >[RC] The GPL, of course. License a scam with a license that's a scam all by itself.... ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 31 20:53:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.pu.net (ns1.pu.net [216.87.139.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AAE637B405 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bugs@localhost) by ns1.pu.net (8.12.2/8.11.6) id g314rpjj002880 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:53:51 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bugs) From: Mark Hittinger Message-Id: <200204010453.g314rpjj002880@ns1.pu.net> Subject: Microsoft seems determined to make FreeBSD look good :-) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:53:51 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This article is just hitting - looks like the wall street journal: http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/020331/200203312242000123_2.html snippets are: "Microsoft Campaign Against Unix Uses a Unix Web Site" "it uses a free "open source" version of Unix called FreeBSD, along with another piece of free software called the "Apache" Web server" I wonder if we should set up a web site advocating the use of FreeBSD over Microsoft, running it on Windows NT of course :-) :-) :-) I nominate Jordan to set it up and maintain it :-) Later Mark Hittinger bugs@pu.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 1:12:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (freebsddiary.org.ua [213.186.199.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6156037B400 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 01:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from never@localhost) by mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g319CAd16711 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:12:10 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never) Received: from rabbit.netstyle.com.ua (root@rabbit.netstyle.com.ua [193.193.194.5]) by mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3198Rb16660 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:08:27 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from misha@rabbit.netstyle.com.ua) Received: (from misha@localhost) by rabbit.netstyle.com.ua (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g319AZZ80861 for never@nevermind.kiev.ua; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:10:35 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from misha) Received: from sleipnir.carrier.kiev.ua (sleipnir.carrier.kiev.ua [193.193.193.114]) by rabbit.netstyle.com.ua (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3198YL80838 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:08:34 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from owner-jivchik@whd.lucky.net) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by sleipnir.carrier.kiev.ua id MCA09371; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:05:13 +0300 (envelope-from owner-jivchik@sleipnir.carrier.kiev.ua) Received: from burka.carrier.kiev.ua (root@burka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.193.193.107]) by sleipnir.carrier.kiev.ua with ESMTP id MBZ09354 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:05:08 +0300 (envelope-from snar@lucky.net) Received: from snar@localhost (snar@localhost) by burka.carrier.kiev.ua id MBZ02558; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:05:08 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from snar) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:05:08 +0300 (EEST) Message-Id: <200204010905.MBZ02558@burka.carrier.kiev.ua> To: jivchik@web.com.ua Subject: (fwd) Microsoft to base next generation OS on OpenBSD Organization: a corner of the sky From: Alexandre Snarskii Reply-To: jivchik@web.com.ua X-List: jivchik Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- forwarded message -- From: Minister of Propaganda Newsgroups: lucky.openbsd.announce Subject: Microsoft to base next generation OS on OpenBSD Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:48:41 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <200204010338.g313cr26010416@xerxes.courtesan.com.lucky.openbsd.announce> April 1, 2002 "Microsoft to base next generation OS on OpenBSD" In a surprising development Microsoft stated today that it would not be using the eight year old NT kernel in its next generation operating system. The new system, to be called Windows BSD, will be based around the freely available OpenBSD operating system. Microsoft's Steve Ballmer had the following to say: "As part of our new commitment to security, we are developing the next Windows product based upon OpenBSD. We feel that OpenBSD's security record fits well with our new proactive security model. Furthermore, we fully approve of the BSD license and encourage developers continue to write similarly-licensed code and avoid the infernal GNU GPL." When asked whether the decision to base the new Windows operating system on OpenBSD had anything to do with the success of Apple's BSD-based OS X, Ballmer exclaimed "There's nothing those Mac people can do that we can't do better. Microsoft has a long history with Unix-like systems, dating back from our original development of Xenix. We are dedicated to providing the Windows experience to Unix on the desktop." And it is not just the desktop that is the target of the new OS. As servers have traditionally been Unix's strong point, Microsoft sees a bright future for Windows BSD, Server Edition. One of the first tests of Windows BSD Server will be running on Microsoft's Hotmail servers, a trial by fire that always left Windows NT a bit scorched. Said de Raadt "We are confident that Windows BSD can more than hold its own in the server arena. Indeed, we expect it to become the benchmark against which all others are judged." OpenBSD founder and project lead The de Raadt will be relocating from Calgary, Canada to Redmond, Washington to oversee the new endeavor. When asked if he felt he was selling out, de Raadt replied with characterist aplomb "I've dedicated my life to free software, it's about time I got something in return." Other OpenBSD developers will likely be moving to Microsoft's Redmond campus soon. Joining de Raadt in Redmond is OpenBSD packet filter designer Daniel Hartmeier. Hartmeier has already started work on a new firewall codenamed "Microsoft Ward." Said Hartmeier, "I had some trouble getting to the states, what with the airline problems we've been having in Switzerland, but I'm looking forward to working with my development team on the new firewall." When confronted with the apparent inconsistency of developing a Unix-based system while at the same time sponsoring a wave of anti-Unix marketing, Chairman Bill Gates replied "That campaign is targeted towards those other, incompatible versions of Unix. It has no bearing whatsoever on Windows BSD." One potential problem with Microsoft's plans were the revelation that the BSD trademark is currently owned by embedded operating systems specialist WindRiver systems. According to Microsoft chairman Bill Gates, "WindRiver will surrender the BSD trademark to us or we will bury them!" During the announcement of Windows BSD at a PR blitzkrieg, Ballmer, Gates and de Raadt jumped around shouting "Whoo! Whoo! Whoo! Come on, get up, get up... Give it up for BSD!". A beta version of Windows BSD, codenamed `Brobdingnag', will be available to MSDN subscribers in 6 month's time. However, not everyone was happy with the news of OpenBSD's commercial success. A group of disgruntled OpenBSD developers who were not offered jobs at Microsoft have created a competitor to OpenBSD. Unlike OpenBSD, this operating system will be available under the GNU GPL, effectively preventing Microsoft from using their code. The new project, called GNU/BSD, is headed by French former OpenBSD developers Dr. Marc Espie and Miod Vallat. In a joint statement, Espie and Vallat stated "We feel it is grossly unfair to the European developers of OpenBSD that all the attention should be centered around North America. We will not stand for this wanton disregard of the contributions of OpenBSD developers from around the world. Therefore, we have started the GNU/BSD project to take the place of OpenBSD, utilizing the skills of developers in the European Union and beyond." When it was pointed out that Swiss developer Daniel Hartmeier was part of the new Windows BSD project, Espie declared that "Switzerland is hardly a part of Europe. They have only just joined the United Nations for goodness sake." Free Software Foundation founder Richard Stallman had the following to say about the split. "I'm gratified that these people have finally seen the light and have released their code until the GPL. One of the GPL's goals is to prevent this kind of software theft by large corporations. You can't have free software without Freedom. By including GNU in the name they show the proper respect for the GNU project's contributions to all free software projects, including BSD." When asked to comment on Stallman's statement, de Raadt simply said "In Windows BSD we've replaced gcc with Microsoft Visual C Studio. We've no need for RMS, his software, or his silly song. After all, we have Gloria Estefan." -- end of forwarded message -- -- Alexander Snarskii the source code is included. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 3:22:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from carbon.slackerbsd.org (pcp01400762pcs.glnodn01.pa.comcast.net [68.80.148.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B1F37B416 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.slackerbsd.org (carl@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carbon.slackerbsd.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g31BMt97007503 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:22:55 GMT (envelope-from carl@slackerbsd.org) Received: (from carl@localhost) by carbon.slackerbsd.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g31BMtdg007502 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:22:55 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: carbon.slackerbsd.org: carl set sender to carl@slackerbsd.org using -f Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 06:22:55 -0500 From: Carl Schmidt To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (fwd) Microsoft to base next generation OS on OpenBSD Message-ID: <20020401112255.GA7336@carbon.slackerbsd.org> Reply-To: Carl Schmidt Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200204010905.MBZ02558@burka.carrier.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200204010905.MBZ02558@burka.carrier.kiev.ua> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:05:08PM +0300, Alexandre Snarskii wrote: > April 1, 2002 > > "Microsoft to base next generation OS on OpenBSD" > > In a surprising development Microsoft stated today that it would > not be using the eight year old NT kernel in its next generation > operating system. The new system, to be called Windows BSD, will > be based around the freely available OpenBSD operating system. May this be one of the first "I fucking hate april fools day" replies. -- Carl Schmidt http://slackerbsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 3:32: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359FE37B41A for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a055.otenet.gr [212.205.215.55]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g31BVwQA017585; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:31:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g31BVuKM004556; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:32:00 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g31ANFMs004104; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:23:15 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:23:15 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brett Glass Cc: Robert Clark , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PLEASE ASSIST ME.( CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL.) Message-ID: <20020401102315.GG326@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020331211208.00b84d60@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331211208.00b84d60@nospam.lariat.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-03-31 21:12, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:18 PM 3/31/2002, Robert Clark wrote: > >Which license was the scam licensed under? > > > >[RC] > > The GPL, of course. License a scam with a license that's > a scam all by itself.... ;-) In this case, GPL has another obvious advantage. If anyone develops features of the given scam that are worth anything at all, they are considered "derivative works" and their authors have to provide the author of the original scam with "the source" :P - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 3:50: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC7B37B41C for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16s0J9-0003Js-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 03:49:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA848EF.D2D78015@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 03:47:59 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Brett Glass , Robert Clark , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PLEASE ASSIST ME.( CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL.) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020331211208.00b84d60@nospam.lariat.org> <20020401102315.GG326@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-03-31 21:12, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 06:18 PM 3/31/2002, Robert Clark wrote: > > >Which license was the scam licensed under? > > > > > >[RC] > > > > The GPL, of course. License a scam with a license that's > > a scam all by itself.... ;-) > > In this case, GPL has another obvious advantage. If anyone develops > features of the given scam that are worth anything at all, they are > considered "derivative works" and their authors have to provide the author > of the original scam with "the source" :P I notice Lucent hasn't released the source to NEPPI... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 10:37:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C10537B419; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.254.205] (cerberus [192.168.254.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g31IeKU24540; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:40:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:37:36 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Comments desired on "User Commands: FreeBSD" Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have put together a first cut at a DOSSIER (http://www.ptf.com/dossier) volume called "User Commands: FreeBSD". It will be a compilation of man pages for handy user commands (omitting those that are only used by system administrators and programmers). To see what I have so far, visit: http://www.ptf.com/dossier/TC/User_FrB_1.0.1.shtml Notes: * Unless you think your comments are of strong general interest, send them directly to me; I'll summarize, etc. * I am omitting man pages for scripting tools and text editors (too big; sigh...). * Unlike most of Section 1, the "builtin" man page has a TON of alternate names. As a result, the Table of Contents has quite a few entries like "alias(1:FreeBSD) - see builtin" My usual approach is to include all such entries, even if they are a bit off-topic or obscure, because they only take up a bit of room in the Contents and Permuted Index. -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - my home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 10:37:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D8937B41A; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.254.205] (cerberus [192.168.254.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g31IeLU24543; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:37:34 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Comments desired on "Processes: FreeBSD" Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have put together a first cut at a DOSSIER (http://www.ptf.com/dossier) volume called "Processes: FreeBSD". It will be a compilation of man pages for users, administrators, and programmers, covering processes, threads, and related subjects (e.g., IPC). To see what I have so far, visit: http://www.ptf.com/dossier/TC/Proc_FrB_1.0.1.shtml Notes: * Unless you think your comments are of strong general interest, send them directly to me; I'll summarize, etc. -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - my home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 12:45:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B989737B41C for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.20] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g31KjBM09516; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:45:11 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020401005230.GB17019@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <3C9DF87D.5050306@cream.org> <20020326142957.A3519@math.uic.edu> <20020328020224.GA11419@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020330045306.GA17371@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020329205439.E7895@rain.macguire.net> <20020330050100.GA17537@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20020401005230.GB17019@sleepy.wojomedia.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:00:25 +0200 To: Tim , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Cc: Benjamin Krueger , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:52 PM -0600 2002/03/31, Tim wrote: >> If *you* give me corrections, or someone else on this list gives >> me corrections, I am likely to pay attention. > > Beep. You already told me that unless I can show experience > or talent similar to yours, you don't believe I would have anything > to add. Sufficient talent or experience is required if you want to try to add something new to the topic as a whole. Providing corrections does not necessarily require adding something new to the topic. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 13:32:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D4E6937B42C for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0140658064; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:37:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3CA8D104.1CFA3FA9@pythonemproject.com> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:28:36 -0800 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Brett Glass , Robert Clark , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PLEASE ASSIST ME.( CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL.) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020331151759.02cc0ba0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020331211208.00b84d60@nospam.lariat.org> <20020401102315.GG326@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2002-03-31 21:12, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 06:18 PM 3/31/2002, Robert Clark wrote: > > >Which license was the scam licensed under? > > > > > >[RC] > > > > The GPL, of course. License a scam with a license that's > > a scam all by itself.... ;-) > > In this case, GPL has another obvious advantage. If anyone develops > features of the given scam that are worth anything at all, they are > considered "derivative works" and their authors have to provide the author > of the original scam with "the source" :P > > - Giorgos > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Thanks guys for giving me the first laugh in 2 days. Life sucks, even if your options are again finally above water :) Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 13:54:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7E737B42A for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id g31Lrwc97385; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:53:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <010501c1d9c7$b9ffe880$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: Subject: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:53:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A Web site sponsored by Microsoft and Unisys as a way to steer big companies away from the Unix operating system is itself powered by Unix software--and it is FreeBSD! http://news.com.com/2100-1001-872266.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 14:38: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A67737B405 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08767; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:37:45 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:37:32 -0700 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <010501c1d9c7$b9ffe880$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:53 PM 4/1/2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >A Web site sponsored by Microsoft and Unisys as a way to steer big companies >away from the Unix operating system is itself powered by Unix software--and >it is FreeBSD! > >http://news.com.com/2100-1001-872266.html What's dumber still is that their page, at http://www.wehavethewayout.com, doesn't render properly under Netscape. Here they are, targeting an audience of non-Microsoft users... with a page that will only render under a Microsoft browser! Ironic that they should demonstrate the ways in which they're trying to lock customers in -- at the very same time that they're falsely claiming UNIX does. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 14:57:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D91137B417 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:57:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g31MvNp21272; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:57:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 14:57:23 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <010501c1d9c7$b9ffe880$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20020401144656.S96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > A Web site sponsored by Microsoft and Unisys as a way to steer big companies > away from the Unix operating system is itself powered by Unix software--and > it is FreeBSD! > > http://news.com.com/2100-1001-872266.html this seems to have been fixed: >> telnet www.wehavethewayout.com 80 Trying 130.94.214.143... Connected to www.wehavethewayout.com. Escape character is '^]'. HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0 Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:46:30 GMT Content-Type: text/html Content-Length: 87 netcraft still reports FreeBSD/"Rapidsite". nmap agrees with the telnet: Remote OS guesses: MS Windows2000 Professional RC1/W2K Advance Server Beta3, Windows Millenium Edition v4.90.3000 OS Fingerprint: TSeq(Class=RI%gcd=1%SI=199ED%TS=0) T1(Resp=Y%DF=Y%W=402E%ACK=S++%Flags=AS%Ops=MNWNNT) T2(Resp=Y%DF=N%W=0%ACK=S%Flags=AR%Ops=) T3(Resp=Y%DF=Y%W=402E%ACK=S++%Flags=AS%Ops=MNWNNT) T4(Resp=Y%DF=N%W=0%ACK=O%Flags=R%Ops=) T5(Resp=Y%DF=N%W=0%ACK=S++%Flags=AR%Ops=) T6(Resp=Y%DF=N%W=0%ACK=O%Flags=R%Ops=) T7(Resp=Y%DF=N%W=0%ACK=S++%Flags=AR%Ops=) PU(Resp=N) TCP Sequence Prediction: Class=random positive increments Difficulty=104941 (Good luck!) TCP ISN Seq. Numbers: 61BF0379 61C0FD82 61C313CE 61C79F81 61CD5484 IPID Sequence Generation: Busy server or unknown class) -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 15:17:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5187237B41D for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g31NHqr59335 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 01:17:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013d01c1d9d3$72e2d640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 01:17:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett writes: > What's dumber still is that their page, at > http://www.wehavethewayout.com, doesn't render > properly under Netscape. It looks fine to me under Netscape. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 15:21:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5395E37B41C for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0467.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.212] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sB77-0002KX-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:21:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:21:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > What's dumber still is that their page, at http://www.wehavethewayout.com, > doesn't render properly under Netscape. Here they are, targeting an audience > of non-Microsoft users... with a page that will only render under a Microsoft > browser! Ironic that they should demonstrate the ways in which they're trying > to lock customers in -- at the very same time that they're falsely claiming > UNIX does. Yeah, that's incredibly stupid. I guess they expect everyone to be running their beta product, rather than something like Netscape 4.6 or 4.7, which is what everyone runs, and which are the only versions that are truly stable under UNIX, in my experience. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 15:31:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from astro.phpwebhosting.com (astro.phpwebhosting.com [66.33.60.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 50F4037B417 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 15:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31249 invoked by uid 508); 1 Apr 2002 23:21:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO 178-246.mam.umd.edu) (129.2.178.246) by astro.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2002 23:21:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:31:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Cc: Brett Glass , Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Terry Lambert From: James Howard In-Reply-To: <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <93AF20D0-45C8-11D6-A1C3-003065BAAC62@well.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IE is very stable under OSX :) On Monday, April 1, 2002, at 06:21 , Terry Lambert wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: >> What's dumber still is that their page, at >> http://www.wehavethewayout.com, >> doesn't render properly under Netscape. Here they are, targeting an >> audience >> of non-Microsoft users... with a page that will only render under a >> Microsoft >> browser! Ironic that they should demonstrate the ways in which they're >> trying >> to lock customers in -- at the very same time that they're falsely >> claiming >> UNIX does. > > Yeah, that's incredibly stupid. I guess they expect everyone to > be running their beta product, rather than something like Netscape > 4.6 or 4.7, which is what everyone runs, and which are the only > versions that are truly stable under UNIX, in my experience. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 16:22:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from muncher.math.uic.edu (muncher.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B1A9D37B400 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1148 invoked by uid 1001); 2 Apr 2002 00:21:08 -0000 Date: 2 Apr 2002 00:21:08 -0000 Message-ID: <20020402002108.4432.qmail@cr.yp.to> Automatic-Legal-Notices: See http://cr.yp.to/mailcopyright.html. From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org rsidd@online.fr writes: > The only one I'm aware of, which Wietse pointed out years ago and > continues to harp on, is the memory exhaustion thing, which in Dan's > opinion is the job of the operating system and not the MTA Yes, I think it's the OS's job. The OS itself agrees with me. The UNIX kernel, with the cooperation of the standard shells, gives the sysadmin configurable, easy-to-use per-process memory rlimits. Reinevnting the same feature by adding separate code to every program to impose artificial limits on every dynamically allocated structure for network data is remarkably bad engineering. Last November, years after I made these comments on my web pages, someone discovered that Venema had forgotten to put an artificial limit on Postfix's dynamically allocated session log. Consequently an attacker could trivially convince Postfix's smtpd to use all available memory. Did Venema scream that Postfix had ``A BUG'' that ``made'' systems ``vulnerable to memory exhaustion attacks''? Did he post an ``exploit'' for this Postfix ``BUG''? Did he try to have Postfix entries added to vulnerability databases? Did he admit that his approach was vastly more complicated and error-prone than system resource limits? No, he didn't. I spend quite a bit of time analyzing system failures and investigating how they could have been prevented by better programming practices--- preferably practices that also save time for the programmers. Frankly, in this case, there's no contest. ---D. J. Bernstein, Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics, Statistics, and Computer Science, University of Illinois at Chicago To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 16:25: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from muncher.math.uic.edu (muncher.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F18F37B417 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11207 invoked by uid 1001); 2 Apr 2002 00:23:56 -0000 Date: 2 Apr 2002 00:23:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20020402002356.6243.qmail@cr.yp.to> Automatic-Legal-Notices: See http://cr.yp.to/mailcopyright.html. From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin Krueger writes: > Its a charlatan's promise. He fails to define security, or bug, or anything > else really, and retains the right to define it at a later time (preferably > after you've already reported it). If a company were to offer to pay you for > your services in finding bugs, but not define bug or security, and after many > years nobody was ever able to get a successful claim out of them despite > getting many submissions, it would be called Fraud. There have been zero submissions for the qmail security guarantee. There have been zero submissions for the djbdns security guarantee. The documentation in the very first qmail release pointed out that there are many remote denial-of-service attacks on Internet mail. Later, when I offered a security guarantee, I quite clearly excluded those attacks. (15 January 1997: ``Some holes that don't qualify: corrupting DNS data; breaking TCP/IP; breaking NFS; denying service.'') If you think that Venema submitted his ``attack,'' or that my comments on the stupidity of his ``attack'' are the only reason that the security guarantee remains unclaimed, you are massively confused. Furthermore, I find it strange that you allude to the sentence ``My judgment is final as to what constitutes a security hole in djbdns'' from http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/guarantee.html without even mentioning the next sentence: ``Any disputes will be reported here.'' You also neglect to mention that my web page names four broad classes of security holes, with three examples of specific BIND bugs (1998 IQUERY, 1999 NXT, 2001 TSIG) as illustrations. There are no disputed examples, so there's no point in writing a more comprehensive definition. ---D. J. Bernstein, Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics, Statistics, and Computer Science, University of Illinois at Chicago To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 16:40:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A220637B400 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g320enN00863 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:40:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:40:49 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020401164049.A6686@ehlke.net> References: <20020402002108.4432.qmail@cr.yp.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020402002108.4432.qmail@cr.yp.to>; from djb@cr.yp.to on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:21:08AM -0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:21:08AM -0000, D. J. Bernstein wrote: > > Did Venema scream that Postfix had ``A BUG'' that ``made'' systems > ``vulnerable to memory exhaustion attacks''? Did he post an ``exploit'' > for this Postfix ``BUG''? Did he try to have Postfix entries added to > vulnerability databases? Did he admit that his approach was vastly more > complicated and error-prone than system resource limits? No, he didn't. > http://online.securityfocus.com/archive/1/240354 Exactly what part of self reporting this to bugtraq, and describing it himself as a "stupid error" does not count as 'scream[ing] that Postfix had ``A BUG'' that ``made'' systems ``vulnerable to memory exhaustion attacks'' '? -Pete -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 17: 0:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F07637B41A for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3210Iru076903; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:30:20 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 02 Apr 2002 10:30:15 +0930 Message-Id: <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5 required=5 X-Spam-Level: (-5) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2002-04-02 at 08:51, Terry Lambert wrote: > Yeah, that's incredibly stupid. I guess they expect everyone to > be running their beta product, rather than something like Netscape > 4.6 or 4.7, which is what everyone runs, and which are the only > versions that are truly stable under UNIX, in my experience. Ahaha.. Netscape? Stable? I use Galeon which renders very nicely, is extremely stable and isn't bloated with an XUL user interface, and a mail and news client. The website in question appears to render properly in it too... Personally I'd rather use IE than NS 4.x since at least IE 5.x works more often.. Both of them are buggy and don't have very many useful features so the only thing left is how many web pages they render correctly. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 17: 3: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3E637B41C for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2CF8C78311; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:32:57 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 10:32:57 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: I think Linus wins the April 1st competition this year Message-ID: <20020402103257.H61467@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200204020011.g320Bn423164@winston.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200204020011.g320Bn423164@winston.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moving to -chat] On Monday, 1 April 2002 at 16:11:49 -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/linux/linux-kernel/2002-13/0063.html > > Matt or Theo indeed! Of course, by making dillon a core team member, he'd solve a lot of problems. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 17:42:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E4537B41C for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11346; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:42:31 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401184152.00e3ed10@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:42:25 -0700 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <013d01c1d9d3$72e2d640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:17 PM 4/1/2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >It looks fine to me under Netscape. Which Netscape? I'm running 4.79, and the page is ugly. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 18: 8:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC15B37B419 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3227vg21993; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:07:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:07:57 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Brett Glass Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401184152.00e3ed10@nospam.lariat.org> Message-ID: <20020401180635.M96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Brett Glass wrote: > Which Netscape? I'm running 4.79, and the page is ugly. it's a pretty ugly page to begin with. you sure it's netscape and not the design? -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 18:13: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A40637B41B for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0310.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.55] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sDmr-0004dR-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:12:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 18:12:18 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: Brett Glass , Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Tue, 2002-04-02 at 08:51, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Yeah, that's incredibly stupid. I guess they expect everyone to > > be running their beta product, rather than something like Netscape > > 4.6 or 4.7, which is what everyone runs, and which are the only > > versions that are truly stable under UNIX, in my experience. > > Ahaha.. > Netscape? Stable? > > I use Galeon which renders very nicely, is extremely stable and isn't > bloated with an XUL user interface, and a mail and news client. > > The website in question appears to render properly in it too... > > Personally I'd rather use IE than NS 4.x since at least IE 5.x works > more often.. Both of them are buggy and don't have very many useful > features so the only thing left is how many web pages they render > correctly. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent to how much of an installed base it represents vis-avis the current UNIX_using market. If you can point me to where to download Galleon for AIX, SCO, and Solaris boxes? ...didn't think so... 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 18:27:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F8A37B405 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g322RUru078465; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:57:38 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 02 Apr 2002 11:57:26 +0930 Message-Id: <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5 required=5 X-Spam-Level: (-5) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2002-04-02 at 11:42, Terry Lambert wrote: > Whether you like it or not is irrelevent to how much of an > installed base it represents vis-avis the current UNIX_using > market. Not that that particular market is very big in the browsing department.. > If you can point me to where to download Galleon for AIX, SCO, > and Solaris boxes? > > ...didn't think so... 8-). You can download the source from http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6999 You can get Mozilla from http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ GNOME is available at http://www.gnome.org/ Enjoy. At worst you could just use Mozilla which has releases for Win32, MacOS, Linux, AIX, BeOS, BSD/OS, FreeBSD, HPUX, OpenVMS, OS/2, Solaris and Tru64. Mozilla is no less stable than Galeon in my experience only slower and with slightly fewer features. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 20:54:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5B237B400 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 20:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0021.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.21] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sGIm-0000nK-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:53:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:53:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: Brett Glass , Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Tue, 2002-04-02 at 11:42, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Whether you like it or not is irrelevent to how much of an > > installed base it represents vis-avis the current UNIX_using > > market. > > Not that that particular market is very big in the browsing department.. So bitch at Microsoft for putting up a *web site* to reach them. > > If you can point me to where to download Galleon for AIX, SCO, > > and Solaris boxes? > > > > ...didn't think so... 8-). > > You can download the source from > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6999 Doesn't work on AIX or Solaris. I haven't tried it on SCO, mostly because I believe it will be a waste of time to do so. > You can get Mozilla from http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ I already have Netscape. You guys were arguing about Netscape not working, and then you go and point me at Netscape... sheesh. > GNOME is available at http://www.gnome.org/ > > Enjoy. Sorry, I don't want to invest 6 hours pulling down sources just to find out I need more sources, until eventually I have converted whatever OS I am using into Linux. 8-). > At worst you could just use Mozilla which has releases for Win32, MacOS, > Linux, AIX, BeOS, BSD/OS, FreeBSD, HPUX, OpenVMS, OS/2, Solaris and > Tru64. Mozilla is no less stable than Galeon in my experience only > slower and with slightly fewer features. I'm pretty sure that Galeon a whole bunch of stuff, plus the Galeon stuff, to work. People were complaining about it on -hackers, just the other day, when it took them 8 hours to pull it down over their 28k modem. Can you point us at *binary* releases for versious OSs? For 28k modem users, this puts them in the 1.5 hour range for a 14M download. PS: UNIX people tend to use UNIX for everything. This includes browsing. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to run some other OS, if your intent is to not run that OS on your servers, as well, so a UNIX ship will have UNIX desktops, and they will probably be the same flavor of UNIX as they have deployed for their hosting facilities, since it also makes little sense to have to keep people up to speed on several OSs, rather than, say, doing useful work. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 21:10:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from carbon.slackerbsd.org (pcp01400762pcs.glnodn01.pa.comcast.net [68.80.148.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029C237B405 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from carbon.slackerbsd.org (carl@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carbon.slackerbsd.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g325ACa1009388 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 05:10:13 GMT (envelope-from carl@slackerbsd.org) Received: (from carl@localhost) by carbon.slackerbsd.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g325ACu3009387 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 05:10:12 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: carbon.slackerbsd.org: carl set sender to carl@slackerbsd.org using -f Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:10:11 -0500 From: Carl Schmidt To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020402051011.GA9188@carbon.slackerbsd.org> Reply-To: Carl Schmidt Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 08:53:24PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > You can get Mozilla from http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ > > I already have Netscape. You guys were arguing about Netscape > not working, and then you go and point me at Netscape... sheesh. I guess maybe it's just me that notices the vast fucking difference between Netscape 4.x and Mozilla. Fuck you Terry. -- Carl Schmidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 21:14: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7283B37B405 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g325Diru081426; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:43:46 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 02 Apr 2002 14:43:39 +0930 Message-Id: <1017724424.71119.79.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5 required=5 X-Spam-Level: (-5) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2002-04-02 at 14:23, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Whether you like it or not is irrelevent to how much of an > > > installed base it represents vis-avis the current UNIX_using > > > market. > > > > Not that that particular market is very big in the browsing department.. > > So bitch at Microsoft for putting up a *web site* to reach them. Well I can read it :) Doesn't everyone use Mozilla? I prefer stable software.. > > You can download the source from > > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6999 > > Doesn't work on AIX or Solaris. I haven't tried it on SCO, > mostly because I believe it will be a waste of time to do so. You've tried it on AIX and Solaris? > > You can get Mozilla from http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ > > I already have Netscape. You guys were arguing about Netscape > not working, and then you go and point me at Netscape... sheesh. Uhh Mozilla != Netscape 4.x > > At worst you could just use Mozilla which has releases for Win32, MacOS, > > Linux, AIX, BeOS, BSD/OS, FreeBSD, HPUX, OpenVMS, OS/2, Solaris and > > Tru64. Mozilla is no less stable than Galeon in my experience only > > slower and with slightly fewer features. > > I'm pretty sure that Galeon a whole bunch of stuff, plus > the Galeon stuff, to work. People were complaining about > it on -hackers, just the other day, when it took them 8 > hours to pull it down over their 28k modem. I can't parse the first part of that sentence. As for big downloads.. Netscape is not significantly smaller. Netscape 4.79 for AIX is around 13 Mb vs 16.5 Mb for Mozilla. Personally I think the 3.5Mb would be worth it for a browser that crashes way _way_ less and has many more useful features. > Can you point us at *binary* releases for versious OSs? For > 28k modem users, this puts them in the 1.5 hour range for a > 14M download. Did you visit the mozilla.org URL I posted? Here it is again http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ All the operating systems I listed had binary releases. > PS: UNIX people tend to use UNIX for everything. This includes > browsing. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to run some > other OS, if your intent is to not run that OS on your servers, > as well, so a UNIX ship will have UNIX desktops, and they will > probably be the same flavor of UNIX as they have deployed for > their hosting facilities, since it also makes little sense to > have to keep people up to speed on several OSs, rather than, > say, doing useful work. What an interesting, but highly irrelevant point. Can't say I agree, but it's a different issue to what we're talking about. I would consider my office a 'unix shop' but we do have Windows machines here. Lack of a decent Office suite or PCB and schematic tools tend to prevent me from installing FreeBSD on all of our machines (and believe me I'd like to). --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 22:14:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6057637B416 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g326ENr60935 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:14:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002001c1da0d$a2b20410$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:14:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Yeah, that's incredibly stupid. I guess they > expect everyone to be running their beta > product, rather than something like Netscape > 4.6 or 4.7, which is what everyone runs, and > which are the only versions that are truly > stable under UNIX, in my experience. They probably expect everyone to be running a browser that is reasonably standards-compliant by now, and that excludes the old Netscape 4.x browsers, which have been obsolete for several years and were awash with bugs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 22:16:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A896837B423 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g326Gdr60949; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:16:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002d01c1da0d$f4043130$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brett Glass" , References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020401184152.00e3ed10@nospam.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:16:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett writes: > Which Netscape? I'm running 4.79, and the page > is ugly. You're running a version that contains thousands of bugs and was obsolete years ago. I run 6.0, which is also obsolete, I guess, but I only use it to test pages. My usual browser is MSIE 6.0, and sometimes I run Opera 6.0, which is of about equal quality (but not free). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 22:19:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9BB37B41A for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g326J7r60955; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:19:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:19:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Whether you like it or not is irrelevent to > how much of an installed base it represents > vis-avis the current UNIX_using market. If current UNIX users are still limited to an ancient piece of garbage like Netscape 4.x for browsing, maybe Microsoft et al. have a point about UNIX restricting a user's choices. Netscape is history in the PC and Mac worlds, especially a version as ancient and buggy as 4.x. > If you can point me to where to download Galleon > for AIX, SCO, and Solaris boxes? But if you move off the UNIX platform, you have a choice of several excellent browsers. QED. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 22:27:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B5D37B400 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g326Rcr60986; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:27:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <004501c1da0f$7cd67a80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:27:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > So bitch at Microsoft for putting up a > *web site* to reach them. It seems to be working thus far. In this thread, for example, Microsoft has succeeded in making the limitations of UNIX obvious as far as Web browsing is concerned. > Doesn't work on AIX or Solaris. I haven't > tried it on SCO, mostly because I believe > it will be a waste of time to do so. Uh-huh. See above. This wouldn't be a problem on Windows. > I already have Netscape. If you have an old version of Netscape, you do not have a browser that knows much about standards, so you should not complain if it fails to properly render pages written in standard HTML. Newer versions are a bit better, and browsers like Opera and MSIE are worlds better. > You guys were arguing about Netscape > not working, and then you go and point me > at Netscape... sheesh. Windows 3.1 doesn't work very well, either, but it's obsolete, too. > Sorry, I don't want to invest 6 hours > pulling down sources just to find out I > need more sources, until eventually I > have converted whatever OS I am using into > Linux. This would only take a few minutes if you were running Windows. > I'm pretty sure that Galeon a whole bunch > of stuff, plus the Galeon stuff, to work. Not as simple as Windows, eh? > People were complaining about it on -hackers, > just the other day, when it took them 8 > hours to pull it down over their 28k modem. See above. > Can you point us at *binary* releases for > versious OSs? For Windows, see http://www.microsoft.com. For UNIX, set aside a free week to work on the problem. > For 28k modem users, this puts them in the > 1.5 hour range for a 14M download. Does the average UNIX user have a slower modem than the average Windows user these days? No 33.6 kbps modems or broadband connections? > PS: UNIX people tend to use UNIX for everything. Of course ... it's a religion for many of them, after all. > This includes browsing. It doesn't make a > heck of a lot of sense to run some other OS, > if your intent is to not run that OS on your servers, > as well ... Servers and desktops are two different types of machines. It doesn't make sense to run sendmail on your desktops, either. > ... so a UNIX ship will have UNIX desktops, and > they will probably be the same flavor of UNIX > as they have deployed for their hosting facilities ... That is, one of 7,482 flavors of UNIX in the world, all incompatible with each other unless you recompile source from scratch. Do you see the Windows advantage? > ... since it also makes little sense to > have to keep people up to speed on several OSs, > rather than, say, doing useful work. And that's why so many shops just adopt Windows for everything, since they need it on the desktops already. You're doing a great job of selling Windows, you know. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 22:43:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6649237B400 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:43:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AFE7778311; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:13:51 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:13:51 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020402161351.A26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 2 April 2002 at 8:19:07 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > >> Whether you like it or not is irrelevent to >> how much of an installed base it represents >> vis-avis the current UNIX_using market. > > If current UNIX users are still limited to an ancient piece of garbage like > Netscape 4.x for browsing, maybe Microsoft et al. have a point about UNIX > restricting a user's choices. Ah, this wouldn't have anything to do with Microsoft, would it? Who killed Netscape? >> If you can point me to where to download Galleon for AIX, SCO, and >> Solaris boxes? > > But if you move off the UNIX platform, you have a choice of several > excellent browsers. QED. I'll agree with you that Netscape is not a good browser. But then, I've never seen a good browser, let alone an excellent one. And yes, I've used Internet Exploder. The only way I could find any Microsoft product good, let alone excellent, would be to lower my standards. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 22:51:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9462137B41A for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B202D78311; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:21:12 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:21:12 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020402162112.B26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> <004501c1da0f$7cd67a80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <004501c1da0f$7cd67a80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 2 April 2002 at 8:27:36 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > >> You guys were arguing about Netscape not working, and then you go >> and point me at Netscape... sheesh. > > Windows 3.1 doesn't work very well, either, but it's obsolete, too. What does that have to do with the statement to which it's attached? >> Sorry, I don't want to invest 6 hours pulling down sources just to >> find out I need more sources, until eventually I have converted >> whatever OS I am using into Linux. > > This would only take a few minutes if you were running Windows. OK, I'll bite. How do I compile Galeon (or any other free software, for that matter) under Microsoft without first finding lots of other odds and ends I need? What Terry (was that really Terry? I thought it was Daniel) was referring to isn't true, anyway, since the Ports Collection would do it for you automatically, though it's possible that it could take a while. >> I'm pretty sure that Galeon a whole bunch of stuff, plus the Galeon >> stuff, to work. Is this correctly quoted? It doesn't make any sense. > Not as simple as Windows, eh? What isn't as simple as "Windows"? Why? >> People were complaining about it on -hackers, just the other day, >> when it took them 8 hours to pull it down over their 28k modem. > > See above. It's faster to do it over a 28.8 kb/s modem with Microsoft? Give me a break. >> Can you point us at *binary* releases for versious OSs? > > For Windows, see http://www.microsoft.com. For UNIX, set aside a > free week to work on the problem. I don't see any galeon binaries there. Please give the correct URL. >> This includes browsing. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense >> to run some other OS, if your intent is to not run that OS on your >> servers, as well ... > > Servers and desktops are two different types of machines. It doesn't make > sense to run sendmail on your desktops, either. This is a viewpoint you haven't substantiated. >> ... so a UNIX ship will have UNIX desktops, and they will probably >> be the same flavor of UNIX as they have deployed for their hosting >> facilities ... > > That is, one of 7,482 flavors of UNIX in the world, all incompatible > with each other unless you recompile source from scratch. Not true. I use Linux binaries as a matter of course on my FreeBSD boxes. > Do you see the Windows advantage? No. >> ... since it also makes little sense to have to keep people up to >> speed on several OSs, rather than, say, doing useful work. > > And that's why so many shops just adopt Windows for everything, > since they need it on the desktops already. Nobody needs Microsoft. It's just the path of least resistance. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 22:55:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FE837B421 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g326tYru084092; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:25:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <002d01c1da0d$f4043130$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020401184152.00e3ed10@nospam.lariat.org> <002d01c1da0d$f4043130$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 02 Apr 2002 16:25:28 +0930 Message-Id: <1017730532.71119.122.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5 required=5 X-Spam-Level: (-5) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2002-04-02 at 15:46, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > You're running a version that contains thousands of bugs and was obsolete > years ago. I run 6.0, which is also obsolete, I guess, but I only use it to > test pages. My usual browser is MSIE 6.0, and sometimes I run Opera 6.0, > which is of about equal quality (but not free). I can't believe people find MSIE better than Moz/Galeon/etc. (Try Kmeleon - same engine as moz in a tiny download for windows). I did try upgrade to MSIE 6 but I Windows Update failed to work for no readily apparent reason (it said I should make sure I was connected to the internet.. HELLO!?) IE 5.5 is OK, but not great, it crashes more often than Moz/Galeon but less than Netscape. There aren't any web sites I visit that Moz/Galeon won't handle (I don't require flash, but I have used linux-moz with the flash plugin on other occasions). Moz/Galeon have the features I want (decent auto-form filling, cookie and image blocking etc). I have yet to see a way in IE to selectivly disable active content without it asking you stupid questions like "Would you like to run scripts on this page?" - there is no 'more info' button, or a check box or anything! Dumb.. No pop-up blocking either. I have tried Opera under FreeBSD but it seemed very ugly (maybe I have the wrong fonts installed or something) and not too stable. I also really _love_ how IE downloads plugins for you and THEN asks you if you want to install them.. Urk thanks but no thanks.. As for the 1 version of Windows thing.. Try installing Office 2k on a Windows 95 PC and watch it spend 20-30 minutes installing extra crap on your system and rebooting a few times before it can even _start_ the office install. Yech. I found it easier to install Mozilla than IE6.. pkg_add -rv mozilla is pretty damn easy. I have yet to convince my PC that it is online to install IE6. BTW I found NS6 for windows sucked pretty hard, but 6.1 is better. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 1 23:22:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.webmailer.de (natwar.webmailer.de [192.67.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02A437B443 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from iowsxp666.nightfire.de (cic.ision-kiel.de [195.179.139.139]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19150; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:21:25 +0200 (MEST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402091843.022dc688@post.strato.de> X-Sender: Inferno@nightfire.de@post.strato.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:21:08 +0200 To: Carl Schmidt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: (fwd) Microsoft to base next generation OS on OpenBSD In-Reply-To: <20020401112255.GA7336@carbon.slackerbsd.org> References: <200204010905.MBZ02558@burka.carrier.kiev.ua> <200204010905.MBZ02558@burka.carrier.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:22 01.04.2002 -0500, Carl Schmidt wrote: >On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 12:05:08PM +0300, Alexandre Snarskii wrote: > > April 1, 2002 > > > > "Microsoft to base next generation OS on OpenBSD" > > > > In a surprising development Microsoft stated today that it would > > not be using the eight year old NT kernel in its next generation > > operating system. The new system, to be called Windows BSD, will > > be based around the freely available OpenBSD operating system. > >May this be one of the first "I fucking hate april fools day" replies. Hi! Well, there were rumored some thoughts about M$ using some UNIX technology on their next generation products, similarly to Apple... Well, I heard from a Debian developer also some thoughts about doing a Debian distro with an OpenBSD kernel, to mix the best of two worlds... (At least in their thoughts)... Well, this Debian thingie was not meant as a joke, but AFAIK it never got really up... Olaf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 0: 9:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C457237B400 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12283 invoked by uid 100); 2 Apr 2002 08:09:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15529.26418.100684.391201@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:09:22 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Terry Lambert" , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.50 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > But if you move off the UNIX platform, you have a choice of several > excellent browsers. QED. Possibly true, but Amiga's haven't gotten faster since 4.x was current. Or are you saying there are excellent browsers available for Windows? If so, could you name them? I know about Netscape 6.x (buggy and bloated), IE (worse than Netscape 6.x), and Opera (unusable UI). None of them qualify as "excellent" by any stretch of the imagination. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 0:33: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C25737B41A for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0147.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.147] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sJin-0001yj-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 00:32:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA96C9C.B09A3535@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 00:32:28 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carl Schmidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> <20020402051011.GA9188@carbon.slackerbsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Carl Schmidt wrote: > On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 08:53:24PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > You can get Mozilla from http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ > > > > I already have Netscape. You guys were arguing about Netscape > > not working, and then you go and point me at Netscape... sheesh. > > I guess maybe it's just me that notices the vast fucking difference between > Netscape 4.x and Mozilla. > > Fuck you Terry. http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ "We make binary versions of of Mozilla available for testing purposes only!. We provide no end user support. If you use our binaries, we strongly encourage you to participate in the various mailing lists and newsgroups hosted by mozilla.org. Please report any bugs you find to bugzilla! That, of course, is the whole reason we make these binaries available." "We initially release builds on the Win32, MacOS and x86 Linux platforms. In the days following the initial release, volunteers contribute builds for other platforms." http://www.gerbilbox.com/newzilla/mozilla/usingmoz07.php "Java is not part of the nightly builds. Instructions on getting it to work in Mozilla varies depending on operating system. WARNING: Because of the experimental and constantly changing state of Mozilla, there may be problems with getting Java to work properly, even with these instructions: 1. Linux 2. Mac OS 3. Windows" FWIW: Mozilla is not an option, for most commercial shops, which would rather only have to do the work that was necessary, rather than buy into the whole "maintain your own browser" clique. Almost every web administration interface for networking equipment in the market targetted by Microsoft's web site that I have seen in the last 3 years (including the ones shipped on products where I helped build the guts, if not some of the UI code) required Java. Almost every installation site where the equipment was installed required support contracts of one kind or another. None of your posting speaks to these facts of life, nor does it speak to the relative penetration of browsers in the UNIX market, where the vast majority of systems are running Netscape 4.6 or higher. The only "Mozilla" technology most of these people will *ever* see is Netscape 6. Back to the thread itself: It's OK if you can point at a browser that can render an anti-UNIX site prepared by Micrsoft -- render it *on UNIX platforms*. However, it's irrelevent as a propaganda tool, if the people who it is attempting to propagandize can't read the thing with the tools they have on hand. And the *vast* majority of them do *not* have Mozilla on hand. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 0:51:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C78C237B41A for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0147.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.147] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sK08-0001mZ-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 00:50:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA970CD.E76C6568@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 00:50:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: Brett Glass , Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> <1017724424.71119.79.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > > You can download the source from > > > http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=6999 > > > > Doesn't work on AIX or Solaris. I haven't tried it on SCO, > > mostly because I believe it will be a waste of time to do so. > > You've tried it on AIX and Solaris? I've tried compiling it there. At the time I tried (last month), it did not compile successfully. > > > You can get Mozilla from http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ > > > > I already have Netscape. You guys were arguing about Netscape > > not working, and then you go and point me at Netscape... sheesh. > > Uhh Mozilla != Netscape 4.x Netscape 6.x. Without the Netscape connection, it fails to support Java. > > I'm pretty sure that Galeon a whole bunch of stuff, plus ^requires > > the Galeon stuff, to work. People were complaining about > > it on -hackers, just the other day, when it took them 8 > > hours to pull it down over their 28k modem. > > I can't parse the first part of that sentence. Sorry; I've inserted the missing token... 8-). > As for big downloads.. Netscape is not significantly smaller. Netscape > 4.79 for AIX is around 13 Mb vs 16.5 Mb for Mozilla. Personally I think > the 3.5Mb would be worth it for a browser that crashes way _way_ less > and has many more useful features. But it's binary. And it's supported. And it's not explicitly labelled as "for testing purposes only!" on the download lead-in page. > > Can you point us at *binary* releases for versious OSs? For > > 28k modem users, this puts them in the 1.5 hour range for a > > 14M download. > > Did you visit the mozilla.org URL I posted? > Here it is again http://www.mozilla.org/releases/ > All the operating systems I listed had binary releases. Yes. This is the page where it said the code is for testing purposes only, in a dark bold font. The size argument vs. the browser that comes with the OS is: Mozilla 17.9M gtk+ glib gettext > > PS: UNIX people tend to use UNIX for everything. This includes > > browsing. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to run some > > other OS, if your intent is to not run that OS on your servers, > > as well, so a UNIX ship will have UNIX desktops, and they will > > probably be the same flavor of UNIX as they have deployed for > > their hosting facilities, since it also makes little sense to > > have to keep people up to speed on several OSs, rather than, > > say, doing useful work. > > What an interesting, but highly irrelevant point. How long ago did you read the subject line? 8-) 8-). > Can't say I agree, but it's a different issue to what we're talking > about. > > I would consider my office a 'unix shop' but we do have Windows machines > here. Lack of a decent Office suite or PCB and schematic tools tend to > prevent me from installing FreeBSD on all of our machines (and believe > me I'd like to). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 1: 8:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE1937B419 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 01:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0147.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.147] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKHg-0006MG-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 01:08:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA9750D.D111EACC@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 01:08:29 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carl Schmidt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> <20020402051011.GA9188@carbon.slackerbsd.org> <3CA96C9C.B09A3535@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd also like to point out: UNIX wonk != Open Source Software wonk -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 1:34:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A676D37B417 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 01:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g329Y5a82414 ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:34:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA53231 ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:34:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:34:04 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CA970CD.E76C6568@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I already have Netscape. You guys were arguing about Netscape > > > not working, and then you go and point me at Netscape... sheesh. > > > Uhh Mozilla != Netscape 4.x > > Netscape 6.x. > > Without the Netscape connection, it fails to support Java. Where did you get that idea? My linux binary of mozilla supports java just fine (not only Sun's plugin but also IBM's), and I'm told java is now supported natively on FreeBSD too, though I haven't tried it. The linux binary also supports all other plugins I can think of. On a related topic -- with the crossover plugin on linux, you can even get the windows versions of quicktime, shockwave director, and windows media plugins to work on mozilla. (for windows media, you need to patch mozilla 0.9.9 or use the cvs version, because of a bug in mozilla which was discovered by the crossover people.) It's not free, but it works very well -- I've tried it and was, frankly, amazed. > > As for big downloads.. Netscape is not significantly smaller. > > Netscape 4.79 for AIX is around 13 Mb vs 16.5 Mb for Mozilla. > > Personally I think the 3.5Mb would be worth it for a browser that > > crashes way _way_ less and has many more useful features. > > But it's binary. And it's supported. And it's not explicitly > labelled as "for testing purposes only!" on the download lead-in > page. What exactly does "supported" mean? When it crashes, do they come and hold your hand? You'll probably get better help with mozilla if you have problems with it. You can use Netscape 6.2.2 on available platforms, it's gotten good reviews. Personally I'll stick with mozilla. Version 1.0 will be out pretty soon, and then the "testing purposes only" guff will be gone, for those who care. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 2:18:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7514337B41D for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0033.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.33] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sLMp-0002dT-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:18:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:17:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > I already have Netscape. You guys were arguing about Netscape > > > > not working, and then you go and point me at Netscape... sheesh. > > > > Uhh Mozilla != Netscape 4.x > > > > Netscape 6.x. > > > > Without the Netscape connection, it fails to support Java. > > Where did you get that idea? The Mozilla website. > > But it's binary. And it's supported. And it's not explicitly > > labelled as "for testing purposes only!" on the download lead-in > > page. > > What exactly does "supported" mean? When it crashes, do they come and > hold your hand? Yes, for a fee. > You'll probably get better help with mozilla if you > have problems with it. Probably. But it's irrelevent in the context of an argument against the contents of the "Anti-UNIX" web site. Again... UNIX wonk != Open Source Software wonk. > You can use Netscape 6.2.2 on available platforms, it's gotten good > reviews. Personally I'll stick with mozilla. Version 1.0 will be out > pretty soon, and then the "testing purposes only" guff will be gone, > for those who care. That would be "many people in the commercial sector". Personally, I really look forward to this day, since a vendor can basically dictate the use of any configuration associated software for a major product... if what they dictate is supported. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 2:33: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D6A37B41B for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g32AWsa91863 ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:32:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA56956 ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:32:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:32:54 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:17:50AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 2, 2002 at 02:17:50: > > > Without the Netscape connection, it fails to support Java. > > > > Where did you get that idea? > > The Mozilla website. URL, please? I had a look at the release notes for 0.9.9 and what I found was, Mozilla has been tested with all 1.3.0_* versions of the JRE, and JRE 1.3.1, and beta versions of JDK 1.4. J2SE releases previous to 1.3.0_01 will not work with Mozilla . (http://www.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla0.9.9/#java) It doesn't seem quite the same as what you're saying... To install the default plugin, all you have to do is go to a page which requires java, and it will prompt you to download the plugin, and then it will download and install the plugin for you. That's it. If you prefer the IBM plugin you have to do it yourself but it's pretty easy. It does say Java isn't working yet on Mac OS X, however. > > > But it's binary. And it's supported. And it's not explicitly > > > labelled as "for testing purposes only!" on the download lead-in > > > page. > > > > What exactly does "supported" mean? When it crashes, do they come and > > hold your hand? > > Yes, for a fee. That was a rhetorical question. The real question is, do they fix it for you so that it doesn't crash? If they do that, why does it continue to crash for everyone else, and if they don't, what are you paying them for? Surely not for installing and re-installing the software, which is easy. Incidentally, if you want a good browser on your Solaris or AIX workstation, surely the right people to ask are Sun and IBM -- it's their job to provide one. It could be mozilla, or it could be something else (Sun is planning to supply a GNOME 2 desktop, so I guess they'll support galeon then). If you want a third-party browser, a system administrator who's interested in his users' welfare would pick a good browser and not just one which is "supported", or nobody would be using FreeBSD, we'd all be using Microsoft products. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 6:13:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net (smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net [203.16.214.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1BD837B421 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp436.sa.adsl.on.net [150.101.244.179]) by smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g32EDam31002; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:43:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g32EE1gN088563; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:44:02 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3CA970CD.E76C6568@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <1017714456.71119.20.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA93944.D72D6AB7@mindspring.com> <1017724424.71119.79.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA970CD.E76C6568@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 02 Apr 2002 23:43:26 +0930 Message-Id: <1017756809.75949.53.camel@chowder.dons.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5 required=5 X-Spam-Level: (-5) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2002-04-02 at 18:20, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I already have Netscape. You guys were arguing about Netscape > > > not working, and then you go and point me at Netscape... sheesh. > > > > Uhh Mozilla != Netscape 4.x > > Netscape 6.x. > > Without the Netscape connection, it fails to support Java. Really? I don't think you tried very hard. I have Mozilla/Galeon running here with a native JDK. > > > I'm pretty sure that Galeon a whole bunch of stuff, plus > ^requires > > > the Galeon stuff, to work. People were complaining about > > > it on -hackers, just the other day, when it took them 8 > > > hours to pull it down over their 28k modem. > > > > I can't parse the first part of that sentence. > > Sorry; I've inserted the missing token... 8-). OK, yes it does suck. Deal with it, or use something like Skipstone (or Mozilla :) > > the 3.5Mb would be worth it for a browser that crashes way _way_ less > > and has many more useful features. > > But it's binary. And it's supported. And it's not explicitly > labelled as "for testing purposes only!" on the download lead-in > page. Err, and? Anyway I had assumed that you were talking about NS 4.x. > Yes. This is the page where it said the code is for testing > purposes only, in a dark bold font. The size argument vs. the > browser that comes with the OS is: > > Mozilla 17.9M > gtk+ > glib > gettext Comes with what OS? Also, gtk is 4.5Mb uncompressed, glib is 500kb and gettext is 500kb. You mentioned nothing about it being unsupported as your primary reason for not using it in your last email... --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 6:34:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60D037B41D for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from max ([24.61.57.241]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020402143431.OFJU2928.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@max>; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:34:31 +0000 Message-ID: <200204020934390541.03DD90B8@mail.attbi.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (4) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:34:39 -0500 Reply-To: jdarnold@buddydog.org From: "Jonathan Arnold" To: discuss@blu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PC & Pixel comic Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought you might get a kick out of this comic: http://www.comics.com/wash/pcnpixel/archive/pcnpixel-20020326.html -- Jonathan Arnold (mailto:jdarnold@buddydog.org) Daemon Dancing in the Dark, a FreeBSD weblog: http://jdarnold.tzo.com/FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 2 7: 8:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hub.freebsd.org (211-235-255-82.rev.krline.net [211.235.255.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 305B237B43D for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:08:09 -0800 (PST) From: yeskong@jaewoo.com Subject: =?EUC-KR?B?sMewrSC788ewwLsgvNKws8fVtM+02Sw=?= To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf" MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 00:08:07 -0900 X-Priority: 3 Message-Id: <20020402150810.305B237B43D@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain;charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Wincus Marketer --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/html;charset="euc-kr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Àü±â¼³°è-Çؼ®, Àü±â-ÀüÀÚ»ó°Å·¡, ¼öÃâ ÀüÀÚ»ó°Å·¡ Àü¹®È¸»ç
 
<>" and "Began Violating Sherman Act HERE ---->". Legal documents are sorta like that. Thank ghod, most members of the US Federal judiciary still insist on writing for a literate audience, and not for USA Today. > > http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm#v > I don't see any timeline in there, just a hundred pages of running text. Funny thing about complicated and difficult topics- sometimes it takes complicated and difficult writing to explicate them. > No need for a personal attack. You can admit that you there really isn't a > timeline in that document, and you just threw it out in the hope that I'd be > intimidated. But now I'm calling your bluff. Where's the timeline? As a > matter of fact, I don't think you've even read that document. Prove me > wrong, and point out the timeline. The entire document is a timeline. It's a history, a chronology, a delineation of events, and the definitive statement of how Microsoft engaged in predatory pricing practices and illegally leveraged its OS monopoly in violation of the Sherman Act. This is a complex story that is not well represented by a simple graph. Your insistence that it should be betrays a willful ignorance. > If you are going to point people to putative references to support your > position, you should at least make sure that they contain what you claim. > If you're unable to read a document that's more than a page long and extract from it the information you need to engage the subject at hand in an informed maner, if your eyes glaze over when someone asks you to assimilate more than 25 80 column lines, then one wonders how you learn anything at all. -Pete -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 16:21:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A022E37B41B for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 89118 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 00:21:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15531.40067.230080.806545@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:21:23 -0600 To: "Randall Hamilton" Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.37605.851236.651200@guru.mired.org> <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.38785.141595.336871@guru.mired.org> <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.50 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG>, Randall Hamilton typed: > > In <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG>, Randall Hamilton > typed: > > No, I'm not forgetting it, but as the man said, "there are advantages > > that outweigh that." All the hardware I need to work works. Sure, I > > may have to buy from a more limited set than you do, but the small set > > I use is includes everything I need, which is all that matters. > again...when i see an OS that can support my hardware..play my games..do my > work and other multimedia needs..I will use that as a desktop. > and yes..desktops are generally end user machines...or as you put it 'home > machines' No, "end user" and "home machines" are two radically different types of machines. I spent most of my adult life supporting end user machines, but playing games was never part of the story. For that matter, audio and video weren't, either. > > Yes, it does. What you're calling a desktop I'd call a home > > machine. What you're calling workstation I'd call a server with a GUI > > interface. You've dropped the entire class of machines between those > > two ends, which includes all the machines that businesses put on their > > employees desktops so they can get work done. They aren't geared to a > > specific task, but are available for all the tasks that employee does > > does. They generally don't need audio or video, and games clearly have > > no place on them. > thats...basiclly what i just said. if i am an accountant, all i need is a > workstation with the billing software. if i am a dataentry person, all i > need is a workstation with the database-drivin data entry program. they need > nothing else..just.. I think you don't really grasp what a business machine does. The only accountant who just needs "billing software" probably doens't even need that. Those who actually use computers probably expect to be able to do word processing above and beyond what a spreadsheet has, and will need all the ancillary software that goes with that - spelling and grammer checking, thesaurus, and so on. They may well do email to/from clients about various issues. In most of the places I've worked, email was either the #1 or #2 most important application. There's a good chance that one or more of the journals in their field is now online, and the IRS publishes documents via the web, so they need a web browser and the application to print those forms. Oh yes, they'll want a printer. If they're dealing with typeset documents, they may want a scanner and some OCR software. That's to be contrasted with what I thought you meant by workstation, which would be something like one part of an order entry system. If that's not what you meant, but you meant a general-purpose computer used by someone dong work, then the difference is that you play games on a desktop, but not on a workstation. Which makes my PS2 a better desktop machine than Windows, but not as good a workstation :-). http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 16:53:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 174A737B41E for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 89598 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 00:53:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15531.41974.162478.960468@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:53:10 -0600 To: "Randall Hamilton" Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <009b01c1db6f$fca61480$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.37605.851236.651200@guru.mired.org> <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.38785.141595.336871@guru.mired.org> <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.40067.230080.806545@guru.mired.org> <009b01c1db6f$fca61480$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.50 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <009b01c1db6f$fca61480$0301a8c0@NITEDOG>, Randall Hamilton typed: > > > In <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG>, Randall Hamilton > typed: > > > > In <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG>, Randall Hamilton > > > typed: > > > > No, I'm not forgetting it, but as the man said, "there are advantages > > > > that outweigh that." All the hardware I need to work works. Sure, I > > > > may have to buy from a more limited set than you do, but the small set > > > > I use is includes everything I need, which is all that matters. > > > again...when i see an OS that can support my hardware..play my games..do > my > > > work and other multimedia needs..I will use that as a desktop. > > > and yes..desktops are generally end user machines...or as you put it > 'home > > > machines' > > No, "end user" and "home machines" are two radically different types > > of machines. I spent most of my adult life supporting end user > > machines, but playing games was never part of the story. For that > > matter, audio and video weren't, either. > did you support end user workstations? I thought that's what we were trying to determine. > see..when an end user buys a Dell..they are generally(IE most cases) buying > a desktop. > thats the reason i classified them as such. i only added 'home machines' > because you brought it up...but yes...most end user home machines i have > supported with 2 years of tech support were desktops as well. A desktop as opposed to *what*? Most of the Dell's I've encountered were sitting on someone's desk at an office, *not* in someone's home. Playing games and adding exotic hardware - by which I mean anything beyond a disk drive, cdrom drive. keyboard, monitor and mouse - was not part of the requirements for them. > wow..3 replies to cover one simply point. lemmi try again with ya > does your ps2 have tons of hardware support? does it have the ability to run > spreadsheets...office related tools..play video's in a whole slew of > different codecs..same with audio.. AND play games? last time i > checked...no. that would mean it would be a poor desktop. I can run Linux on it, so the only "no" is having "tons of hardware support". On the other hand, it supports the hardware I described above just fine. What makes a desktop require all that strange hardware? > a workstation is a machine that does the task of someone working. > generally..an account has one main goal in a company. and thats to track the > books. he may need only 2 programs to do that...or he may need 10. the point > is..that all the programs are geared around the task..and the fact that > audio..video..games...hardware are NOT factors in a great majority of > workstations. Have you ever supported people using machines in a business? I can guarantee you that 90% or more of the software on any given desktop machines in a business is generic software, and *NOT* targetted at that person's specific tasks. > from all the corperations i have been involved with/worked at..i have > nothing that general workstations are simply limited power desktops. without > the cpu requirements of video, games, and such...the machines can be fairly > low end..and still do the job for the user. but the basic point > is...workstations are machines that are built...setup and geared toward the > task that the user has. nothing more then that job(s). a desktop has far > more roles to play then a workstation...and that in itself should be clear > by now. In that case, I've never supported "workstations". Every machine I've supported was, first and foremost, a general purpose computer. It may have applications specific to the users task installed on it, but I generally didn't get involved in that, and that was a small fraction of the software on the machine. Many of them didn't need any exotic hardware, but the tasks they did - software development, for instance - wasn't something that could be done acceptably on a "low end machine". For that matter, those machines that ran dedicated software also did things that couldn't be done on "low end machines". Things like CAD and graphical network monitoring chew up cycles as if they were free. Personally, I think your definitions are badly skewed. A desktop machine is a machine that sits on someone's desk so they can use it for whatever needs they have. A workstation is either a machine that runs one application, or a desktop that had a fancy label hung on it to raise the price. A workstation *used* to be a high end desktop that used SCSI drives and similar high-grade hardware, but that's been polluted by the second definition above. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 17:27:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D43C37B41C for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 33442 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 01:27:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15531.44009.426543.851156@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:27:05 -0600 To: "Randall Hamilton" Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <00a501c1db75$9cf9fcd0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.37605.851236.651200@guru.mired.org> <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.38785.141595.336871@guru.mired.org> <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.40067.230080.806545@guru.mired.org> <009b01c1db6f$fca61480$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.41974.162478.960468@guru.mired.org> <00a501c1db75$9cf9fcd0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <00a501c1db75$9cf9fcd0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG>, Randall Hamilton typed: > > A desktop as opposed to *what*? Most of the Dell's I've encountered > > > wow..3 replies to cover one simply point. lemmi try again with ya > > > does your ps2 have tons of hardware support? does it have the ability to > run > > > spreadsheets...office related tools..play video's in a whole slew of > > > different codecs..same with audio.. AND play games? last time i > > > checked...no. that would mean it would be a poor desktop. > > I can run Linux on it, so the only "no" is having "tons of hardware > > support". On the other hand, it supports the hardware I described > > above just fine. What makes a desktop require all that strange > > hardware? > "tons"? im still waiting for linux to support "tons" on a pc...much less a > ps2. > when a PS2 can support my digital camera, webcam, hard drive and network > adapter under USB..as well as run some spreadsheets..office..and ohh..play > some divx 4 video files with mpeg3 audio..without killing the performance of > the machine..I'll will take your PS2 to be a desktop. I don't have Linux on the PS2, so I don't know how well it handles divx 4 video files, but I expect it to do OK on them. The Linux package sold by Sony includes a hard drive. I can certainly attach a digital camera, webcam and network adaptor to it and get them to work vai USB, as Linux supports all of those things. Whether or not *your* specific hardware will work is another question. Since you didn't buy it for the PS2 but for a different platform, I consider that it meets that requirements. So the only one it misses is the divx, meaning it's close to being what you call a desktop once you add Linux. > > > a workstation is a machine that does the task of someone working. > > > generally..an account has one main goal in a company. and thats to track > the > > > books. he may need only 2 programs to do that...or he may need 10. the > point > > > is..that all the programs are geared around the task..and the fact that > > > audio..video..games...hardware are NOT factors in a great majority of > > > workstations. > > Have you ever supported people using machines in a business? I can > > guarantee you that 90% or more of the software on any given desktop > > machines in a business is generic software, and *NOT* targetted at > > that person's specific tasks. > yes..office 2000 is a general business software...i agree. > then again..for some strange reason...i rarly see peachtree/turbo tax on a > web designers workstation. for some strange reason...it generally only on > marketing/accounting workstations. fancy that. You don't know the web designers I do, then. They are independent consultants, and do their taxes on their computers. I don't know about Peachtree, but turbo tax is really popular for them. > > Personally, I think your definitions are badly skewed. A desktop > > machine is a machine that sits on someone's desk so they can use it > > for whatever needs they have. A workstation is either a machine that > > runs one application, or a desktop that had a fancy label hung on it > > to raise the price. A workstation *used* to be a high end desktop that > > used SCSI drives and similar high-grade hardware, but that's been > > polluted by the second definition above. > No..i believe my discriptions work just fine for me. while you are used to True, but it's out of line with a large chunk of reality. > seeing desktops used in offices...i normally see workstations. while > workstations WERE highend machines 10 years ago..the general definition of a > workstation is an office machine nowadays. That's the second of my two definitions, from a different perspective. A workstation *used* to be a high end machine. So PC makers starting hanging that moniker on desktop machines to raise the price, thus watering the term down to what you're using. However, the believe that those are "low end machines" is false. Sure, some of them may be. Then again, so are some home machines. On the other hand, if the person who's using it is doing video conferencing over the network as part of their job, they've got lots of CPU and a fat pipe - among other things. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 19: 7:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D21637B41D for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0188.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.188] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sxan-0002oI-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 19:07:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3CABC34C.C9473DE@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 19:06:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Randall Hamilton , Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.37605.851236.651200@guru.mired.org> <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.38785.141595.336871@guru.mired.org> <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.40067.230080.806545@guru.mired.org> <009b01c1db6f$fca61480$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.41974.162478.960468@guru.mired.org> <00a501c1db75$9cf9fcd0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.44009.426543.851156@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > That's the second of my two definitions, from a different > perspective. A workstation *used* to be a high end machine. So PC > makers starting hanging that moniker on desktop machines to raise the > price, thus watering the term down to what you're using. However, the > believe that those are "low end machines" is false. Sure, some of them > may be. Then again, so are some home machines. On the other hand, if > the person who's using it is doing video conferencing over the network > as part of their job, they've got lots of CPU and a fat pipe - among > other things. On a related not, I have never seen a "multimedia" machine that could do oils or acrylics, generate smells or tacticle output, or read minds. Mostly it means "We put a CDROM, soundcard and graphics card into this hunk of junk". Somtimes, it's a "deluxe multimedia machine". I think this is code for "We included speakers, and you can plug them into the wall, instead of buying lots of batteries". One of the tricks marketroids play is to use words incorrectly in an intentional bid to confuse the user into believing they are getting something they want, as opposed to something that someone has too much of in a warehouse this month. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 19:37: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from glenfiddich.infospace.com (mail1.infospace.com [206.29.197.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8853737B405 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:36:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25329 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2002 03:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO skyy.inspinc.ad) (206.29.197.191) by mail1.infospace.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2002 03:36:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 8396 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2002 03:36:49 -0000 Received: from rolf.inspinc.ad ([10.99.33.65]) (envelope-sender ) by skyy.inspinc.ad (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Apr 2002 03:36:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:36:49 -0800 Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) From: William Carrel To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <00b201c1db61$825e66e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-Id: <322A2C5F-477D-11D6-8361-003065B4E0E8@carrel.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, April 3, 2002, at 02:47 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Microsoft does not hire high-school students for technical support, as > far > as I know, not even for first-line support. http://www.microsoft.com/jobs/support.htm The "premier support manager" manages a team of "Technical Account Managers". These TAM's are the people that you actually talk to about your "Premier" support problems. If you look at the job requirements for the Technical Account Manager on the same page, there is no mention of a need for any sort of university degree. That means high-school (or a GED or perhaps nothing at all) is good enough. Gather 'round kids, it's story time... About 6 months ago, I had the unhappy pleasure of working with my company's "Premier" support contact over at Microsoft. The result was that they first blamed the problems I was having with on Apache and FreeBSD for 2 weeks. Then, when I finally managed to get escalated enough to get someone who knew the code, they said they were aware of the problem, but that I should work around it. They agreed that the workaround that I had already found was probably the best way to go. The problem (which hasn't yet been fixed AFAIK) is that when Cache-Control is set to no-cache, and the URL happens to be application/msword or some other type that MSIE wants to use Office to display inside it's window, MSIE downloads it, then immediately expires the file (deleting it from its cache), then starts up MS Word pointing at where the file used to be, MS Word fails (because the file was deleted), lastly MSIE brings up a erroneous and highly misleading dialog that says "Server not responding." In fact, the server *did* respond, but MSIE threw away the response. With this explanation in hand, the service rep told me the problem was first with FreeBSD and then with Apache. (Yes, these were all 100% MS employees, no contractors to blame.) So hopefully you'll understand that I find your claims difficult to believe. From anecdotal evidence of several dozen of professional colleagues I've interacted with, my experience was certainly not atypical. On FreeBSD on the other hand, I've found little nitpicky bugs here and there, and generally had prompt resolution once I actually got someone to look at the PR. *wink wink* Generally the people answering my PR's have not blamed other products for the trouble I've had. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 19:52:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7165137B419 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id g343qbu96352; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:52:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003001c1db8c$296b5950$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Rick Hamell" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:52:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rick writes: > Nope.. it's not. When did this change? > Yes... it is... I've been doing it for 4 > years now. Not a good sign. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 19:57:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4C937B419 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id g343veq96670; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:57:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003901c1db8c$de49fde0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: "Pete Ehlke" , References: <20020403145929.P96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:57:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org f.johan writes: > "Even if non-Windows versions of Navigator > exposed Internet-related APIs, applications > written to those APIs would not run on the > platform Microsoft executives expected to > enjoy the largest installed base ..." What in the world is an "Internet-related API"? How could Navigator, or any other software product, run under an OS and talk to the Internet without using an OS-specific API to do so? > Developers of network-centric applications > thus would not be drawn to Navigator's APIs > in substantial numbers. When did Navigator ever provide any kind of API? > Therefore, with the encouragement and support > of Gates, a group of Microsoft executives > commenced a campaign in the summer of 1995 to > convince Netscape to halt its development of > platform-level browsing technologies for Windows > 95. Well, they didn't succeed, because I used Navigator for a year or so after 1995, until MSIE was good enough to replace it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20: 2:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E9C37B419 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g3442Pr68589; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:02:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Randall Hamilton" , References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:02:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > No problem. You can find it at http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers/windowing.html That's just a discussion of window managers. There is far more to a desktop OS than a window manager. It's odd that the second-place desktop OS, the Mac, uses essentially the same interface as the first-place desktop OS. If the design is so bad, why are the two leading operating systems using it? > Where's yours? I have only my empirical evaluation, and it is probably not entirely objective. > Since you didn't list these putative > advantages ... Since operating systems are not normally limited to window managers, with all other components being ignored, I didn't think it necessary to list the rest. > I believe that your cost of learning is high > enough that such an investment isn't worth > your while. You don't have enough information to determine my cost of learning, so this is conjecture. > That depends on how fast you work and how much > you charge for your time. Only if all else is equal, which it isn't. > Those same people will also realize that just > because this holds true for some people doesn't > mean it holds true for them all. Nothing holds true for everyone, but the fact that a minority disagrees doesn't make the majority wrong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20: 3:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F5D37B41E for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id g3443O597064; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:03:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004501c1db8d$ab264c10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , References: <00bc01c1db62$19c05e80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36723.54880.329156@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:03:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > For people who can set aside there biases, that's > a sufficient explanation. Really? No need for "objective evaluations" for the unbiased among us, then, eh? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20: 4:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7178737B417 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id g3444X497133; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:04:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004a01c1db8d$d47d7cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403162934.01e23c00@nospam.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:04:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett writes: > MSIE. MSIE has unlimited numbers of bugs? You've never used Netscape 4.x, then. > There truly seems to be no limit to the number > of security holes in this product. There has > been at least one serious IE hole announced PER > WEEK for nearly as long as it's been available. There are a hundred million people using it. I'm surprised the number of bugs found is so low. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20: 8:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1064A37B41E for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34484r68600; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:08:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <004f01c1db8e$51b6d4a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Randall Hamilton" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:08:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Randall writes: > i mean really...whats the alternitive? X? There isn't any alternative right now. That's why I bought another PC running Windows XP, even though I hate the idea of "activating" an operating system. > while thats a good joke...i prefer to use > something that every single peice of random > hardware i need to use works without having > to deal with it constantly.. That's what motivated me. The scanner I wanted has no drivers or software for any OS other than Windows and the Mac. The version of Windows I had on my other machine (NT 4.0) is not supported for this scanner. Nobody could tell me clearly whether or not anything could be done with the scanner on FreeBSD, or how do to it ... the usual speculative cluelessness greeted my questions on that. So I bought a machine running XP, and the problem was solved. Works great. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:11:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268E837B416 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g344BDr68609; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:11:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005401c1db8e$c2861290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020402161351.A26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> <006901c1da80$599af0c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403085624.J26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403075529.00d0adf0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403163134.01cbae00@nospam.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:11:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett writes: > Actually, Gates was rich from the get-go. He came > from a very wealthy family. He did not have a billion dollars to pour into software development. > This had nothing whatsoever to do with its > success. It had _everything_ to do with it. The high intelligence of its employees is probably the single most important factor in Microsoft's success. Without smart employees, the company would have made poor decisions, and poorer products, and it would be where, say, Netscape is today. Bill Gates' best decision was to hire people at least as smart as he is. > Microsoft succeeded primarily by default... > Its much larger competitor, DRI, didn't show > up to provide a DOS for the IBM PC. See my comments on intelligence above. Intelligent companies show up to demonstrate their product; unintelligent companies go hang-gliding instead. > Microsoft licensed a mediocre product from > Seattle Computer products, called it its own, > and the rest is history. Anyone could have done that; but Microsoft apparently had the brains to figure out how to do it first. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:17:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAFE637B41C for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g344Gbr68626; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:16:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005f01c1db8f$84866110$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , References: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:16:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy writes: > This is a good example of getting trapped. I don't know any way of avoiding this sort of "trap." It has existed in IT since it was called EDP, and it exists in every other industry as well. There are far more proprietary technologies and processes and formats in the world than standard, open versions of same, and many of the most successful are also the most proprietary. > Do software companies create new proprietary > formats for new versions to make them incompatible > with competitors? Not usually. They do it to bloat products with more features. > I don't know what data you are referring to, > but for generic tasks like word processing or > spreadsheets, there are open alternatives. Nobody other than the occasional secretary limits herself to word processing and spreadsheets on a PC. > Often, you can ask for alternative formats. No, I can't. I need the business, and telling clients that I can't use the same format as everyone else is not going to get me that business. > It may be an inconvenience at first, but in > the long run it will all work out. No, in the long run I'd be out of business. > And depending on your standing, you could > insist on not using the proprietary formats. Not a very good way to retain that standing, even if I had it. And why would I bother? I don't care if I'm using Microsoft or not. It doesn't bother me to use Microsoft software. I just use whatever tools do the job. And Microsoft is among the _least_ irritating of vendors that I have to work with. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:18:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148EC37B400 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g344I0r68636; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:18:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <006401c1db8f$b4f66f20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Randall Hamilton" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><15531.37605.851236.651200@guru.mired.org><004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.38785.141595.336871@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:18:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Sure, I may have to buy from a more limited > set than you do, but the small set I use is > includes everything I need, which is all that > matters. It's all that matters to you. But the rest of the world needs a lot more hardware, and an OS that doesn't support all that hardware matters an awful lot to them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:20:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FF037B419 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g344KOr68646; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:20:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <006901c1db90$0bcea470$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Pete Ehlke" Cc: References: <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020402161351.A26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> <006901c1da80$599af0c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403085624.J26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403075529.00d0adf0@nospam.lariat.org> <006701c1db45$088784d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403112808.E20012@ehlke.net> <007801c1db4e$dab82dc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403125720.F20012@ehlke.net> <008801c1db5d$89854aa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403160432.H20012@ehlke.net> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:20:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pete writes: > Funny thing about complicated and difficult > topics- sometimes it takes complicated and > difficult writing to explicate them. I see more obfuscation in the cited excerpts than elucidation. > The entire document is a timeline. The entire document appears to be running text. It's no more a timeline than a bibliography. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:30:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7C437B405 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:30:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g344U2r68675 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:30:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <007c01c1db91$63596b70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: References: <322A2C5F-477D-11D6-8361-003065B4E0E8@carrel.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:30:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org William writes: > The "premier support manager" manages a team > of "Technical Account Managers". Yes, I know. > These TAM's are the people that you actually > talk to about your "Premier" support problems. They provide the sales and logistic interface for Premier contracts; but they don't actually provide technical support themselves (although they are almost invariably qualified to do so, as they tend to be hired from the ranks of regular technical support technicians). > If you look at the job requirements for the > Technical Account Manager on the same page, > there is no mention of a need for any sort > of university degree. That means high-school (or > a GED or perhaps nothing at all) is good enough. Correct. Microsoft has never been very interested in credentials; the company tests prospective employees carefully with some thinly disguised IQ tests, and uses intelligence as a key hiring criterion. Smart people are hired; stupid people are not. And degrees and diplomas are largely ignored. > So hopefully you'll understand that I find > your claims difficult to believe. The problems you experienced are not due to any lack of qualification on the part of technical-support personnel; they are due to a total lack of internal documentation for the products being supported. Technical support at Microsoft, as at many other software vendors, is based on a trial-and-error, shotgun approach to problem identification and resolution, because none of Microsoft's products has ever been adequately documented, even internally, and so nobody really knows how they work except the developers, and even the developers know very little beyond the modules they personally maintain. In other words, technical support fails because it is not given the information to do the job, not because the technical-support people lack any qualifications. Unfortunately, this sort of situation is not at all unique to Microsoft; it is the norm, rather than the exception, in IT. > On FreeBSD on the other hand, I've found little > nitpicky bugs here and there, and generally had > prompt resolution once I actually got someone > to look at the PR. *wink wink* The people looking at the PR were probably people who also wrote or maintained the relevant code. At Microsoft and other large, commercial software vendors, the chances of the developer of any code actually looking at technical-support issues for that code are almost nil. Developers are kept busy writing code, not supporting it, in part because this is more cost-effective, and in part because developers who are forced to document or support their code often quit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:34:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF0937B41D for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:34:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g344YHr68683; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:34:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: Cc: References: <3CAB6307.2071.1076171A@localhost> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:34:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freedie writes: > Netscape (and a host of other companies) was > working on a "desktop replacement" that had > the browser as the platform. That's a frightening thought. Netscape could barely even write a browser; I shudder to think what kind of OS could they would have written. Their products were really, really junky. I'm glad they never succeeded with that. It sounds like another one of their abortive attempts to pass off superficial trimmings as solid software, like their Web server and e-mail system. > They were attempting to use the browser to > standardise the desktop experience across OS. Kind of odd, since most of what the average user does with a desktop OS has nothing to do with Web browsing. Why not try to standardize Notepad as the "desktop experience" across operating systems? > Whether this was entirely due to Microsoft > or not only the employees/parties involved > can say for sure. I'd say that Netscape's incompetence was responsible for their failure. Yes, Microsoft worried about them, but Microsoft worries about _everyone_; that's how they stay on top. Netscape doomed itself, though, and would have failed even if Microsoft had ignored the company entirely. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:39:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AB637B41C for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g344cvk33527; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:38:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:38:57 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Pete Ehlke , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <003901c1db8c$de49fde0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20020403203047.B96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > What in the world is an "Internet-related API"? How could Navigator, or any > other software product, run under an OS and talk to the Internet without > using an OS-specific API to do so? in thise case, i suspect it would be winsock for the TCP/IP stack. this is windows 95, after all. although, honestly, i don't know enough about windows, or programming on windows, to be sure about this. > > Developers of network-centric applications > > thus would not be drawn to Navigator's APIs > > in substantial numbers. > > When did Navigator ever provide any kind of API? why should it? navigator is an application, no different than any other on windows, macos, or unix. > > Therefore, with the encouragement and support > > of Gates, a group of Microsoft executives > > commenced a campaign in the summer of 1995 to > > convince Netscape to halt its development of > > platform-level browsing technologies for Windows > > 95. > > Well, they didn't succeed, because I used Navigator for a year or so after > 1995, until MSIE was good enough to replace it. i used navigator for years. on windows i use IE, due to ease and simplicity of just having the browser there, upon install of win2k. on UNIX i either use Konqueror or Mozilla, depending on the flavour. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:49:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568C637B41A for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g344nT002713; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:49:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:49:29 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020403204929.A2470@rain.macguire.net> References: <322A2C5F-477D-11D6-8361-003065B4E0E8@carrel.org> <007c01c1db91$63596b70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <007c01c1db91$63596b70$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:30:02AM +0200 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Anthony Atkielski (anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) [020403 20:30]: > William writes: > > > The "premier support manager" manages a team > > of "Technical Account Managers". > > Yes, I know. > > > These TAM's are the people that you actually > > talk to about your "Premier" support problems. > > They provide the sales and logistic interface for Premier contracts; but > they don't actually provide technical support themselves (although they are > almost invariably qualified to do so, as they tend to be hired from the > ranks of regular technical support technicians). > > > If you look at the job requirements for the > > Technical Account Manager on the same page, > > there is no mention of a need for any sort > > of university degree. That means high-school (or > > a GED or perhaps nothing at all) is good enough. > > Correct. Microsoft has never been very interested in credentials; the > company tests prospective employees carefully with some thinly disguised IQ > tests, and uses intelligence as a key hiring criterion. Smart people are > hired; stupid people are not. And degrees and diplomas are largely ignored. > > > So hopefully you'll understand that I find > > your claims difficult to believe. > > The problems you experienced are not due to any lack of qualification on the > part of technical-support personnel; they are due to a total lack of > internal documentation for the products being supported. Technical support > at Microsoft, as at many other software vendors, is based on a > trial-and-error, shotgun approach to problem identification and resolution, > because none of Microsoft's products has ever been adequately documented, > even internally, and so nobody really knows how they work except the > developers, and even the developers know very little beyond the modules they > personally maintain. > > In other words, technical support fails because it is not given the > information to do the job, not because the technical-support people lack any > qualifications. Unfortunately, this sort of situation is not at all unique > to Microsoft; it is the norm, rather than the exception, in IT. > > > On FreeBSD on the other hand, I've found little > > nitpicky bugs here and there, and generally had > > prompt resolution once I actually got someone > > to look at the PR. *wink wink* > > The people looking at the PR were probably people who also wrote or > maintained the relevant code. At Microsoft and other large, commercial > software vendors, the chances of the developer of any code actually looking > at technical-support issues for that code are almost nil. Developers are > kept busy writing code, not supporting it, in part because this is more > cost-effective, and in part because developers who are forced to document or > support their code often quit. I'm curious (and annoyed. Please stop responding to every single email seperately. It's called a "thread" for a reason. More than one response per email please.) where you got all of this intimate information on how Microsoft's ranks work, because frankly it sounds like bullshit. I could be wrong, of course, but I trust that the many Microsoft parties, and friends I have working at Microsoft in positions ranging from Technical Support to Development don't lie to me when we talk shop. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 20:52:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C983737B420 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g344qVr68721; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:52:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00a401c1db94$87b8ea10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Benjamin Krueger" Cc: References: <322A2C5F-477D-11D6-8361-003065B4E0E8@carrel.org> <007c01c1db91$63596b70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403204929.A2470@rain.macguire.net> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:52:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin writes: > I'm curious ... where you got all of this > intimate information on how Microsoft's > ranks work, because frankly it sounds like > bullshit. The information came from Microsoft. > I could be wrong, of course, but I trust > that the many Microsoft parties, and friends > I have working at Microsoft in positions > ranging from Technical Support to Development > don't lie to me when we talk shop. What are they telling you? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 21: 6:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BC537B41A for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g3455ut02797; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:05:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:05:56 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Benjamin Krueger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How microsoft hires (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) Message-ID: <20020403210556.B2470@rain.macguire.net> References: <322A2C5F-477D-11D6-8361-003065B4E0E8@carrel.org> <007c01c1db91$63596b70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403204929.A2470@rain.macguire.net> <00a401c1db94$87b8ea10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00a401c1db94$87b8ea10$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:52:31AM +0200 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Anthony Atkielski (anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) [020403 20:53]: > Benjamin writes: > > > I'm curious ... where you got all of this > > intimate information on how Microsoft's > > ranks work, because frankly it sounds like > > bullshit. > > The information came from Microsoft. This information came from Mars. (Nice response from someone who in one of his 12 splintered threads insisted that intelligent folks would demand a more in depth explaination to an open ended qestion) > > I could be wrong, of course, but I trust > > that the many Microsoft parties, and friends > > I have working at Microsoft in positions > > ranging from Technical Support to Development > > don't lie to me when we talk shop. > > What are they telling you? Among other things, anyone who has a position above technical support has a degree. If they don't, they're damned smart or were hired before circe 1997. I only know 1 microsoft developer without a degree. Microsoft also requires new developers and data center operators to have an up to date MCSE. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 21:30:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CFD37B41A for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16484; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:30:22 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020403222840.02004280@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:30:17 -0700 To: "Anthony Atkielski" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Cc: In-Reply-To: <004a01c1db8d$d47d7cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403162934.01e23c00@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:04 PM 4/3/2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> There truly seems to be no limit to the number >> of security holes in this product. There has >> been at least one serious IE hole announced PER >> WEEK for nearly as long as it's been available. > >There are a hundred million people using it. I'm surprised the number of >bugs found is so low. You must be a Microsoft shill. The number of security holes found is not proportional to the number of users; if it were, then MANY more security holes would be found in Apache than in IIS. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 21:32:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DA737B416 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16528; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:32:35 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020403223032.02003100@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:32:31 -0700 To: "Anthony Atkielski" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Cc: In-Reply-To: <005401c1db8e$c2861290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020402161351.A26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> <006901c1da80$599af0c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403085624.J26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403075529.00d0adf0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403163134.01cbae00@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:11 PM 4/3/2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> Actually, Gates was rich from the get-go. He came >> from a very wealthy family. > >He did not have a billion dollars to pour into software development. Again, you must be a Microsoft shill. NO ONE had a billion dollars to pour into software development then (and, in fact, Microsoft does not spend that much on it now). >> This had nothing whatsoever to do with its >> success. > >It had _everything_ to do with it. The high intelligence of its employees >is probably the single most important factor in Microsoft's success. Since you appear to be a Microsoft employee yourself, it seems logical that you would make that self-serving claim. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 21:45:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C860B37B41C for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g345jOr68848; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:45:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00aa01c1db9b$ebae0a30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: Cc: References: <3CAB6B12.29450.1095803C@localhost> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:45:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie writes: > They were trying to write "desktops" that > came with little applet-type things for > business needs ... Like Lotus Notes? How did Lotus manage it, if Microsoft worked against these things? > It wasn't so much that you'd use the browser > for everything, but that the browser would > provide the engine for everything you did. What would be the point? It would just slow everything down, and it would create a single point of failure in one very unreliable piece of software. All that stuff belongs in the OS. > Similar, I guess, to ActiveDesktop and IE > integration in Windows 98+ ... Those were mistakes, too, IMO. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 21:47:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB3F37B41B for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g345lNr68866; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:47:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00af01c1db9c$31fe6020$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401153352.02b99760@nospam.lariat.org> <3CA8EB5F.2E91B408@mindspring.com> <1017709221.71119.5.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> <3CA91382.4E4E2B@mindspring.com> <003a01c1da0e$4ec56080$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020402161351.A26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> <006901c1da80$599af0c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020403085624.J26122@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403075529.00d0adf0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403163134.01cbae00@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020403223032.02003100@nospam.lariat.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:47:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett writes: > Again, you must be a Microsoft shill. In other words, you disagree. > NO ONE had a billion dollars to pour into > software development then ... Oh, a few companies probably did. Just not Microsoft. > ... in fact, Microsoft does not spend that > much on it now. Not true. There are some individual products, in fact, that have cost roughly the same order of money, and I've no doubt that total development costs for multiple products run well into the billions. > Since you appear to be a Microsoft employee > yourself, it seems logical that you would > make that self-serving claim. I don't work for anyone, actually. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 22:15:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep2.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0FA37B405 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fbsd.ergo.dhs.org (d57-117-31.home.cgocable.net [24.57.117.31]) by fep2.cogeco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588881813 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:15:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: periodic daily From: Muhannad Asfour To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-UXOxfPIZIH1N6k+lxpfn" X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 04 Apr 2002 01:15:02 -0500 Message-Id: <1017900902.86812.2.camel@ergo.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=-UXOxfPIZIH1N6k+lxpfn Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was just wondering how I can get my FreeBSD box to run the periodic daily stuff (listed in /etc/crontab) everyday at 3 am like it used to?=20 Ever since I cvsupped, it stopped running it for some odd reason, even though I ran mergemaster and everything. Just wondering how to get it started again? Thanks --=-UXOxfPIZIH1N6k+lxpfn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQA8q+9lck977FUKFQQRAt5hAJ4/NnBE/XFfJ30GNFzgqGzQF/7BsgCeINQa NiZj7GuWouFnk6LUjenmsn4= =tKcE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-UXOxfPIZIH1N6k+lxpfn-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 22:24:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E57537B41C for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16t0eh-0004jW-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:23:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:23:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Muhannad Asfour Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: periodic daily In-Reply-To: <1017900902.86812.2.camel@ergo.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 4 Apr 2002, Muhannad Asfour wrote: > I was just wondering how I can get my FreeBSD box to run the periodic > daily stuff (listed in /etc/crontab) everyday at 3 am like it used to? > Ever since I cvsupped, it stopped running it for some odd reason, even > though I ran mergemaster and everything. Just wondering how to get it > started again? Wrong mailing list. Compare your new files with the old. Manually look at the crontab and the daily stuff and see what is going on. Check the questions archive to see if anyone has asked this before. Good luck, Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 3 23:11: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp24.singnet.com.sg (smtp24.singnet.com.sg [165.21.101.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2385137B42F; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from bryan (bb-203-125-134-162.singnet.com.sg [203.125.134.162]) by smtp24.singnet.com.sg (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g347AhT6015759; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:10:45 +0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.20020404153300.0289ae28@singnet.com.sg> X-Sender: spades81@singnet.com.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:33:02 +0800 To: , From: Spades Subject: Re: openssh ports err Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ports openssh err bash-2.05a# cd /usr/ports/security/openssh bash-2.05a# make install ===> Patching for openssh-3.1_6 ===> Applying distribution patches for openssh-3.1_6 Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 1 out of 1 hunks ignored--saving rejects to key.c.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 1 out of 1 hunks ignored--saving rejects to lib/Makefile.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 2 out of 2 hunks ignored--saving rejects to sshd/Makefile.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 1 out of 1 hunks ignored--saving rejects to Makefile.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 1 out of 1 hunks ignored--saving rejects to README.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 1 out of 1 hunks ignored--saving rejects to readconf.h.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 1 out of 1 hunks ignored--saving rejects to servconf.c.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 2 out of 2 hunks ignored--saving rejects to session.c.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 1 out of 1 hunks ignored--saving rejects to ssh-keyscan.1.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 11 out of 11 hunks ignored--saving rejects to ssh.1.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 12 out of 12 hunks ignored--saving rejects to sshd.8.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 2 out of 2 hunks ignored--saving rejects to sshd_config.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 1 out of 1 hunks ignored--saving rejects to pathnames.h.rej Ignoring previously applied (or reversed) patch. 10 out of 10 hunks ignored--saving rejects to cipher.c.rej *** Error code 47 Stop in /usr/ports/security/openssh. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 0: 2: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from south.nanolink.com (south.nanolink.com [217.75.134.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C5CDB37B41D for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 00:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2771 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2002 08:07:32 -0000 Received: from discworld.nanolink.com (HELO straylight.ringlet.net) (217.75.135.248) by south.nanolink.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2002 08:07:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 4164 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Apr 2002 08:01:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:01:37 +0300 From: Peter Pentchev To: Spades Cc: security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: openssh ports err Message-ID: <20020404110137.B336@straylight.oblivion.bg> Mail-Followup-To: Spades , security@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3.0.32.20020404153300.0289ae28@singnet.com.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020404153300.0289ae28@singnet.com.sg>; from spades@galaxynet.org on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:33:02PM +0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:33:02PM +0800, Spades wrote: > ports openssh err >=20 > bash-2.05a# cd /usr/ports/security/openssh > bash-2.05a# make install > =3D=3D=3D> Patching for openssh-3.1_6 Is this really the first thing you saw? No "Extracting for openssh.." before that? This means that you had a previously extracted source, possibly an old one, possibly with some patches applied and some failed. This would be a good reason for the patches that have been previously applied to fail now :) You should *ALWAYS* do a 'make clean', both when building and when rebuilding a port. Oh, and BTW - this is not a security question, this is not -chat material, this is a question related to the FreeBSD Ports Collection, so it is only logical that it should have gone to -ports instead :) G'luck, Peter --=20 Peter Pentchev roam@ringlet.net roam@FreeBSD.org PGP key: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E DF9E ED18 B68D 1619 4553 If you think this sentence is confusing, then change one pig. --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjysCGEACgkQ7Ri2jRYZRVPWigCgnWZozy1w9rDg7Fw45tF6HFPW ucUAoMKdZw72ZA5rGagXjLOULWpWRPRF =EU6W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 5:19: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F75537B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 463833FC29; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:19:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:19:58 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , Randall Hamilton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404151958.A31008@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Anthony Atkielski , Mike Meyer , Randall Hamilton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:02:25AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:02:25AM +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Hi, > That's just a discussion of window managers. There is far more to a desk= top > OS than a window manager. >=20 > It's odd that the second-place desktop OS, the Mac, uses essentially the > same interface as the first-place desktop OS. If the design is so bad, w= hy > are the two leading operating systems using it? Ok, let me get this straight. Microsoft just has a very good marketdroids. Do you want to use the best desktop system money can boy? Look no further and buy an Altair 8080 (http://www.cyberstreet.com/hcs/museum/imsai.htm). Once you get used to the front panel, you'll never be able to work with that mouse crap again ;-P Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rFL9nLctrNyFFPERAlbdAJ4ktkECt3qX/rwy7DdgtOWnZzRT7ACcDKGM 8qvrSYkW7diDlAK+O4PDwAs= =N80a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 5:33:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0A037B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g34DXFo05271 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:33:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:33:15 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404053315.M20012@ehlke.net> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404151958.A31008@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020404151958.A31008@energyhq.homeip.net>; from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:19:58PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:19:58PM +0200, Miguel Mendez wrote: > Look no further and buy an Altair 8080 > (http://www.cyberstreet.com/hcs/museum/imsai.htm). Once you get used to > the front panel, you'll never be able to work with that mouse crap again That's not an Altair. -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 5:36:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4C337B41C for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 16DEB3FC29; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:37:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:37:42 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Pete Ehlke Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404153742.B31008@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Pete Ehlke , chat@freebsd.org References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404151958.A31008@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020404053315.M20012@ehlke.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7ZAtKRhVyVSsbBD2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020404053315.M20012@ehlke.net>; from pde@ehlke.net on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 05:33:15AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --7ZAtKRhVyVSsbBD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 05:33:15AM -0800, Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:19:58PM +0200, Miguel Mendez wrote: >=20 > > Look no further and buy an Altair 8080 > > (http://www.cyberstreet.com/hcs/museum/imsai.htm). Once you get used to > > the front panel, you'll never be able to work with that mouse crap again >=20 > That's not an Altair. Sorry, lack of coffee. I meant IMSAI, of course. And I forgot to mention that all 1337 h@X0rs use IMSAI boxes too, running a variant of NetBSD, as seen in Wargames :-) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --7ZAtKRhVyVSsbBD2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rFcmnLctrNyFFPERAj1HAKCsunj/NayVGJyYwUk2LdWD/mJwgwCdG8gC 4GevaEsqTpca5vUvr9qPwmY= =8FrR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7ZAtKRhVyVSsbBD2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 6:28:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atreides.freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [212.33.142.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A66437B43D; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morten@localhost) by atreides.freenix.no (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g34ES7906094; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:28:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from morten) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:28:07 +0200 From: "Morten A. Middelthon" To: chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Renewing certificates, OpenSSL / Apache+mod_ssl Message-ID: <20020404162807.B97835@freenix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-PGP-Key: http://freenix.no/~morten/pgp.txt X-PGP-Key-FingerPrint: 20 40 7A 47 1E A0 BF CF 61 BB CD 9D B3 AD CF E2 D4 90 C3 8D X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE X-Warning: So cunning you could brush your teeth with it. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I installed apache13-modssl exactly a year ago, and installed my own custom certificates and custom CA. Now the certificate has expired, and I can't find any good documentation on how to renew it. Does anyone have a good step-by-step doc I can follow? -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. (Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 6:54:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.carrel.org (earlgrey.carrel.org [216.173.212.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0DF37B41E for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 06:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from crumpet206.carrel.org (crumpet206.carrel.org [176.30.4.206]) by mx1.carrel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6C0BA0C for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:59:09 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 01:59:17 -0800 Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) From: William Carrel To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <007c01c1db91$63596b70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, April 3, 2002, at 08:30 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Correct. Microsoft has never been very interested in credentials; the > company tests prospective employees carefully with some thinly > disguised IQ > tests, and uses intelligence as a key hiring criterion. Smart people > are > hired; stupid people are not. And degrees and diplomas are largely > ignored. A) Microsoft hires mainly smart people > The problems you experienced are not due to any lack of qualification > on the > part of technical-support personnel; they are due to a total lack of > internal documentation for the products being supported. Technical > support > at Microsoft, as at many other software vendors, is based on a > trial-and-error, shotgun approach to problem identification and > resolution, > because none of Microsoft's products has ever been adequately > documented, > even internally, and so nobody really knows how they work except the > developers, and even the developers know very little beyond the modules > they > personally maintain. B) Microsoft develops software in a kit-bash sort of manner without adequate testing, documentation, and communication between teams >> On FreeBSD on the other hand, I've found little >> nitpicky bugs here and there, and generally had >> prompt resolution once I actually got someone >> to look at the PR. *wink wink* > > The people looking at the PR were probably people who also wrote or > maintained the relevant code. At Microsoft and other large, commercial > software vendors, the chances of the developer of any code actually > looking > at technical-support issues for that code are almost nil. Developers > are > kept busy writing code, not supporting it, in part because this is more > cost-effective, and in part because developers who are forced to > document or > support their code often quit. C) People who write code in a professional manner often quit working for Microsoft I will add a fact that I think should be hard to argue against: D) People who write code in a professional manner are smart. Either A is false and B, C, and D are true. Or, B and C are false. Since I have personally witnessed that C is true and I've heard quite a bit of anecdotal evidence of B from current and former Microsoft employees, I'm led to believe that A is false. In any case there is a fallacy of inconsistency in your argument. Ergo, just because you qualify for Mensa and/or to be a contestant on Jeopardy, that is to say that you pass the barrage of Microsoft's silly questions (search Google for "Microsoft Interview Questions" if you're bored some time), does not make you smart or effective at programming or technical support, or at competing lawfully in a free market society for that matter. So I reject your assertion about the relative intelligence most of Microsoft's employees compared to those elsewhere (at Sun or Apple, for example). Microsoft's employees are probably on par with most other large technical organizations intelligence-wise. Maybe subpar in some ethical ways since they are associated with an enterprise that has committed fairly aggregious violations of U.S. and European anti-trust law. And in the case of my specific problem, anyone with a basic understanding of HTTP would see that the problem was with the HTTP interaction and independent of the server I'm using. "The problem is probably because you're requested the page from a server running Apache and FreeBSD" seems like a limited depth fallacy in order to facilitate a cheap attempt to sell more IIS licenses. And it still wouldn't have solved my problem if I'd used IIS. Somehow, I've managed to avoid a variety of ad hominem attacks that are pretty obvious from looking at your historical posts to FreeBSD groups, your homepage, and your physical distance from Microsoft's main campus. No asbestos suit needed. -- William Carrel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 7:18:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A6637B41E for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 49A5E5346; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:18:46 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Apr 2002 17:18:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org William Carrel writes: > On Wednesday, April 3, 2002, at 08:30 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Developers are kept busy writing code, not supporting it, in part > > because this is more cost-effective, and in part because > > developers who are forced to document or support their code often > > quit. > C) People who write code in a professional manner often quit working > for Microsoft Non sequitur - and since your entire argument is based on C contradicting A, B & D, your argument falls apart. > I will add a fact that I think should be hard to argue against: > > D) People who write code in a professional manner are smart. Probably correct, but this doesn't affect any of the above. "Smart people write code in a professional manner" would be significant, if it were true. To summarize: A) Microsoft developers are smart B) Microsoft developers don't document their code C) Microsoft does not require developers to document their code D) Programmers who document their code are smart There are no conclusions possible based on the above four premises. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 8:20:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A8C37B41D for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g34GKih23508 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:20:44 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:20:44 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404082044.A16114@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <007c01c1db91$63596b70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from william.a@carrel.org on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 01:59:17AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 01:59:17AM -0800, William Carrel wrote: >=20 > A) Microsoft hires mainly smart people >=20 > B) Microsoft develops software in a kit-bash sort of manner without=20 > adequate testing, documentation, and communication between teams >=20 > C) People who write code in a professional manner often quit working for= =20 > Microsoft >=20 > I will add a fact that I think should be hard to argue against: >=20 > D) People who write code in a professional manner are smart. >=20 > Either A is false and B, C, and D are true. Or, B and C are false. =20 > Since I have personally witnessed that C is true and I've heard quite a= =20 > bit of anecdotal evidence of B from current and former Microsoft=20 > employees, I'm led to believe that A is false. In any case there is a=20 > fallacy of inconsistency in your argument. There's a rather significant fallacy in your argument. What you write for D is "if people write code in a professional manner, then they are smart." That's probably generally true. What you implied you said in the last paragraph is "if someone is smart, then they write code in a professional manner" which is absolutly, positivity, beyond any shadow of a doubt, FALSE. I know, I work with code written by scientists. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rH1cXY6L6fI4GtQRAkMLAJ9bidYkcm+qYItoY1yrA53qRxCcEwCfTAVF AQ8iVvYK0BBZLv9tjIMvH5g= =HVjR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 8:43:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jim.go2net.com (jim.infospace.com [206.29.197.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC33237B419 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25379 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2002 16:43:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ketel.go2net.com) (206.29.197.197) by jim.infospace.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2002 16:43:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 9329 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2002 16:43:25 -0000 Received: from krakatoa.inspinc.ad (HELO crumpet206.carrel.org) ([10.99.33.72]) (envelope-sender ) by ketel.inspinc.ad (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Apr 2002 16:43:25 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:43:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Cc: chat@freebsd.org To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: William Carrel In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, April 4, 2002, at 07:18 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > To summarize: > > A) Microsoft developers are smart > B) Microsoft developers don't document their code > C) Microsoft does not require developers to document their code > D) Programmers who document their code are smart > > There are no conclusions possible based on the above four premises. Yeah, I obviously needed more caffeine when I wrote that... Although I stand by my conclusion regardless of my poor logic at 2 AM. -- William Carrel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 8:55:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D0E37B416 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 04B383FC30; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:56:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:56:12 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: William Carrel Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404185612.A31785@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: William Carrel , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AhhlLboLdkugWU4S" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com>; from william.carrel@infospace.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:43:34AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:43:34AM -0800, William Carrel wrote: Hi, > On Thursday, April 4, 2002, at 07:18 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > To summarize: > > > > A) Microsoft developers are smart > > B) Microsoft developers don't document their code > > C) Microsoft does not require developers to document their code > > D) Programmers who document their code are smart > > > > There are no conclusions possible based on the above four premises. >=20 > Yeah, I obviously needed more caffeine when I wrote that... >=20 > Although I stand by my conclusion regardless of my poor logic at 2 AM. Well, I googled for those Microsoft Interview Questions, and, I've found the reason why Microsft OSs crash so much: # You have been assigned to design Bill Gates bathroom. Naturally, cost # is not a consideration. You may not speak to Bill. No surprise, they're hiring plumbers to code Windows! :-P Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rIWsnLctrNyFFPERAiYfAJwOieD8zDJZuUvn1EiXCFbF7GOjfQCaAh6p ug57yA7P7h2H2FiueRwtkuo= =eWrz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 9:11:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4594937B41C for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04988 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:12:10 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020404110321.019e61c0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:11:40 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:08 PM 4/3/2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >There isn't any alternative right now. That's why I bought another PC >running Windows XP, even though I hate the idea of "activating" an operating >system. But at 10:16 PM 4/3/2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >I don't care if I'm using Microsoft or not. It >doesn't bother me to use Microsoft software. Hmmm...sounds like a little self-contradiction there. Frankly, I don't know why you would put up with the whole activation thing if it bothers you that much. With just a little more effort, you probably could have gotten a blank system and slapped Windows 2000 on it. That would give you comparable stability and compatibility while lacking just a few minor niceties. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 9:41:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (som-456.dhcp.umass.edu [128.119.137.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E54D37B41F for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g34Hf2N53624; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:41:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:41:02 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: William Carrel Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404174102.GA53600@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Pavelcak , William Carrel , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:43:34AM -0800, William Carrel wrote: > On Thursday, April 4, 2002, at 07:18 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >To summarize: > > > >A) Microsoft developers are smart > >B) Microsoft developers don't document their code > >C) Microsoft does not require developers to document their code > >D) Programmers who document their code are smart > > > >There are no conclusions possible based on the above four premises. > Surely you jest. One could validly conclude: A) Microsoft developers are smart B) Microsoft developers don't document their code C) Microsoft does not require developers to document their code D) Programmers who document their code are smart A or B A and B A or C D or The Pope hates tuna fish. Just to name a very few. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 9:43:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0649E37B41A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id DF29C5346; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:43:09 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: William Carrel , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404174102.GA53600@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Apr 2002 19:43:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020404174102.GA53600@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Pavelcak writes: > On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:43:34AM -0800, William Carrel wrote: > > On Thursday, April 4, 2002, at 07:18 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > There are no conclusions possible based on the above four premises. > Surely you jest. One could validly conclude: [...] ...nothing useful. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 10:18: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1FA37B636 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5B68F18F7; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49DE018F6; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:17:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:17:17 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <003001c1db8c$296b5950$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Yes... it is... I've been doing it for 4 > > years now. > > Not a good sign. In your opinion... Luckily I'm with a company that pays it's help desk people VERY well. Since we're also the 13th largest buisness in the world, I have pleanty of oppurtunities. And... thanks to our esteemed President, my company has lots of contracts. I support a wide variety of issues. Not knowing what that next phone call is going to be keeps me going and gives me a challenge to look forward too. Granted it does get redundant telling people how to setup Outlook Personal folders for the 3000th time, but I have enough interesting calls to keep me going. Telling a user that he should really be using FreeBSD instead of Linux for the devel servers he's building is a thrill. :) Getting it up and going on our hodge-podge network is even better. And apparently I'm not the only, 90% of my coworkers have been here longer then I have. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 11: 6:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C28137B419 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4B7BCB6; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08535; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:06:44 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g34J75J22072; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:07:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Apr 2002 11:07:05 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 104 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > > > 2) Imply in law a hold harmless for code placed in the > > > public domain, so that licenses are not required to > > > obtain this protection for authors. > > > > How do you explain the fact that many lawyer-rich companies have put > > information into the public domain with nothing more attached than a > > disclaimer? Many books don't even have that. > > I claim the disclaimer is a license, and that the code is > conditioanlly placed in the public domain, over the disclaimer. The disclaimer in the BSDL is a just disclaimer, like that which should be used when putting a work into the public domain. I'm fairly sure that the disclaimer is just a notice to whom it may concern which lets them know the law that exists independent of the disclaimer. Such notices reduce frivolous suits and have some benefit in lawsuit penalty determinations (AFAIK). What we call the BSDL contains text for a license (AKA permission) including conditions plus a disclaimer. Acceptance of the license is not dependent on acceptance or even acknowledgment of the disclaimer. Furthermore, one may easily lawfully own and use the software without ever seeing the BSDL, and then successfully sue the copyright owner (unless he can't successfuly sue regardless of any disclaimer). > > Do you know of any cases where people have been successfully sued over > > information like software, where a license contract was not involved? > > No. But I don't know anyone stupid enough to release code > that way. Don' be so sure. Here is the complete legal notice of /usr/share/mk/bsd.sgml.mk: # This file is in the public domain. Many of Red Hat's scripts are (were?) treated similarly. > I *do* know that people and companies have been sued for > non-performance of contracts, and for failure of life > support systems (e.g. air bag controllers in automobiles > not recognizing children in the front passenger seat, or > erroneously deploying), and lost a great deal of money as > a result. But all of those involve "consideration" and/or contracts with explicit or implied blah, blah, blah... > Me not hearing about this happening with code placed in > the public domain is probably more of a comment on the > quality of what, until recently, has been available for > free, rather than a comment on a crisis of conscience on > the part of the people who would normally sue saying, "Well, > it was public domain, so I won't sue". Well, it took the lawyers a hundred years or so to discover the Tobacco pot of gold. I suspect that they just haven't smelled enough money around PD software. I suspect from personal experience that Red Had's PD scripts have damaged many people. > The license in the BSD case specifically requires agreement > for use. The GPL doesn't require full compliance for use, as > partial compliance is permissable, as long as there is no > distribution. Neither license is even involved for some uses. (See 17 USC 117). The license is required for publishing and those who own a copy of the software so published may legally execute it without regard for the license. And executing it is likely to damage them, to some degree. > In either case, however, you are in violation of the DMCA, if > you download the code, without agreeing to the license. How sure of that are you? I suspect that there must be some mechanism like shrinkwrap or accept buttons or something. But then I HAVE seen one court opinion which said it was good enough to provide such notice after the software is obtained as long as the user has the opportunity to undo the deal. But I doubt that the DMCA requires one to also download source code to search for licenses. And I repeat, the BSDL doesn't require one to waive warranty and liability as part of the license agreement; it only claims that there are none. > > So I wonder if the law doesn't already imply a hold harmless. It WOULD > > be good to make it explicit, of course. > > It doesn't. There is already a well established doctorine of > "attractive nuisance" in common law, which could be applied > to software that would save you a lrage chunk of money, but > which then results in harm. Like the unfenced swimming pool, > where the owner is considered negligent for not putting up a > fence, if a crimial trespasses on their property, and drowns > in the pool while stealing free use of the facilities. Of course, and I have no doubt that stupid juries would see no differences in the cases, but that's why we have judges and uncommon law. There are many arguments I won't go into why it is wrong to hold PD publishers to a higher standard than prorietary publishers and I believe that courts have acknowledged a similar concept in their mentions of "consideration" in contract cases. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 11:15:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584C337B41A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g34JFj815477 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:15:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:15:45 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404111545.A10174@ehlke.net> References: <003001c1db8c$296b5950$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from hamellr@heorot.1nova.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:17:17AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:17:17AM -0800, Rick Hamell wrote: > Getting it up and going on our hodge-podge network is even better. You have no idea just how badly I misparsed that. -Pete -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 11:32: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C580C37B41B for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g34JW1C05160; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:32:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:32:01 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: William Carrel Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com>; from william.carrel@infospace.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:43:34AM -0800 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * William Carrel (william.carrel@infospace.com) [020404 08:43]: > On Thursday, April 4, 2002, at 07:18 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > To summarize: > > > > A) Microsoft developers are smart > > B) Microsoft developers don't document their code > > C) Microsoft does not require developers to document their code > > D) Programmers who document their code are smart > > > > There are no conclusions possible based on the above four premises. > > Yeah, I obviously needed more caffeine when I wrote that... > > Although I stand by my conclusion regardless of my poor logic at 2 AM. > -- > William Carrel It's not a bad conclusion in that you're almost right on target. I'd almost say Microsoft hires a few very smart developers, coaxing them to stay with incredible benefits and salaries, and a whole lot of programmers, mostly fresh out of college, to write code en masse. (They can't get paid that badly either, a few folks I'm friends with host some kickass parties from their 1400 square foot apartment in downtown seattle. Wish I could afford to drop $2000 on a pad.) I've been to parties with both kinds of coders and being the inquisitive (nosy) guy I am, listened to a lot of Microsoft stories. My experience has been that developers at Microsoft design software internals, and programmers get assigned to write code. Maybe it'll get used, maybe not. Most of the programmers I've met were kids 2 or 3 years out of college. Some were still in the middle of learning things like XML or other technologies they would "soon be using at work". Microsoft seems very much to be a brute force code factory, churning code internally, and selling the end product to customers when another person from some far-off part of the company says go. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 11:53:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E7537B41A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34JrHr70975 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:53:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <011f01c1dc12$5dadd540$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: References: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:53:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org William writes: > A) Microsoft hires mainly smart people True, although not as much so nowadays as in the past (there's a lot more deadwood in the company than there used to be, with many useless layers of management). > B) Microsoft develops software in a kit-bash > sort of manner without adequate testing, > documentation, and communication between teams True, but so does just about every other company writing PC software these days. It's an industry problem, not a Microsoft problem. And it predates Microsoft. > C) People who write code in a professional > manner often quit working for Microsoft No. It's just that finding people who write code that way in the first place is extremely difficult. Most developers have nothing like the discipline required to document and structure code in a maintainable way, and there are too few developers who have these qualities for any company to hold out for them in hiring. Software engineers who insist on a very disciplined coding environment are not likely to stay at Microsoft or at any other PC software company, because virtually none of them knows anything about discipline in coding. Some NASA contractors might be good environments for such engineers, though. > D) People who write code in a professional > manner are smart. Agreed. Most developers are probably brighter than average, but they are not geniuses. In addition, there exists a substantial minority of developers who aren't above average at all in intelligence, but just happen to enjoy writing code. Their code usually leaves much to be desired, and there communication skills are typically nonexistent (making it impossible for them to document anything). > So I reject your assertion about the relative > intelligence most of Microsoft's employees > compared to those elsewhere (at Sun or Apple, > for example). I don't know enough about Sun or Apple to assess the intelligence of their employees. Given that both have produced some extremely cutting-edge technologies, it is clear that at least some of their employees are extremely bright indeed. But I don't know how the averages work out; Apple in particular isn't a very successful company, for a company that presumably would have intelligent employees. I infer from Netscape's extremely poor business performance and from stories I have heard of the company that its employees in general were not especially smart. > Microsoft's employees are probably on par with > most other large technical organizations > intelligence-wise. I tend to disagree. Microsoft employees definitely seem a bit brighter. However, this has evolved over the years, as I've mentioned, and there are a lot more dim bulbs there now than in the past (since the company can now afford to carry some dead weight). > Maybe subpar in some ethical ways since they > are associated with an enterprise that has > committed fairly aggregious violations of U.S. > and European anti-trust law. Keep in mind that (1) any irregular activities were almost certainly the work of a small number of persons at Microsoft, and probably not the smart ones; and (2) every company in a similar position engages in similar activities, so there is nothing uniquely evil about Microsoft. > Somehow, I've managed to avoid a variety of > ad hominem attacks that are pretty obvious > from looking at your historical posts to FreeBSD > groups, your homepage, and your physical > distance from Microsoft's main campus. Good. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 11:57:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE1937B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34Jv1r70990; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:57:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <015901c1dc12$e59a9600$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" , "Chip Morton" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020404110321.019e61c0@threespace.com> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:57:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip writes: > Hmmm...sounds like a little self-contradiction > there. Show the contradiction. > Frankly, I don't know why you would put up with > the whole activation thing if it bothers you > that much. The "whole activation thing" required about three seconds of my time. I needed a compatible version of Windows for my scanner. > With just a little more effort, you probably > could have gotten a blank system and slapped > Windows 2000 on it. That would have cost more than Windows XP Home Edition, and it would have required more of my time. Since I wasn't particularly keen to install 2000 over XP, anyway, it didn't make much difference to me (they both have similar architectures, in any case). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 12: 0:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA0737B41A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34K0Gr71004; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:00:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <016301c1dc13$56f439a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Rick Hamell" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:00:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rick writes: > In your opinion... I don't know that years of technical support looks very flattering on a résumé, although I ended up in nearly similar circumstances myself, simply because decent jobs for software engineers are scarce in France. > Luckily I'm with a company that pays it's help > desk people VERY well. That won't help if you are laid off. > Since we're also the 13th largest buisness > in the world, I have pleanty of oppurtunities. Kind of like Arthur Andersen. > Not knowing what that next phone call is going > to be keeps me going and gives me a challenge > to look forward too. That might indeed be motivating, IF you have the tools to actually resolve the problems that come in. But many technical support organizations don't have that; it costs money, and few companies want to spend anything more than absolutely necessary on technical support. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 12: 3:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E933537B41C for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34K3Vr71019; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:03:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Benjamin Krueger" Cc: References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:03:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin writes: > They can't get paid that badly either, a > few folks I'm friends with host some kickass > parties from their 1400 square foot apartment > in downtown seattle. Those are stock options, not salary. Microsoft has historically been slightly _below_ the norm for salaries in the industry, but the prestige of the company and very high-flying stock options persuaded people to hire on and stay. Now that MSFT stock isn't really worth anything any more, the stock-option carrot is gone, and Microsoft has had to raise salaries. I still don't believe they are paying much better than anyone else, however. There is a lot of company loyalty, though, and the working environment is very pleasant in many ways, particularly for workaholics. > Microsoft seems very much to be a brute force > code factory, churning code internally, and > selling the end product to customers when > another person from some far-off part of the > company says go. That's how you make the money. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 12:14:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E2337B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g34KESn05289; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:14:28 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Benjamin Krueger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:03:28PM +0200 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Anthony Atkielski (anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) [020404 12:03]: > Benjamin writes: > > > They can't get paid that badly either, a > > few folks I'm friends with host some kickass > > parties from their 1400 square foot apartment > > in downtown seattle. > > Those are stock options, not salary. Microsoft has historically been > slightly _below_ the norm for salaries in the industry, but the prestige of > the company and very high-flying stock options persuaded people to hire on > and stay. Now that MSFT stock isn't really worth anything any more, the > stock-option carrot is gone, and Microsoft has had to raise salaries. I > still don't believe they are paying much better than anyone else, however. > There is a lot of company loyalty, though, and the working environment is > very pleasant in many ways, particularly for workaholics. Funny. And not 4 months ago I was told I could go to work for MSFT at a salary higher than the industry rate. Not even as a developer, but as a systems operator. Stock was not even mentioned, and it didn't need mentioning. The salary alone would have been great. (For the record, this was an invitation, and not an offer, and I respectfully declined. I couldn't in good faith work for a company who's products I don't enjoy using, and wouldn't recommend for many situations.) > > Microsoft seems very much to be a brute force > > code factory, churning code internally, and > > selling the end product to customers when > > another person from some far-off part of the > > company says go. > > That's how you make the money. This is how we make the empty statements that try to sound profound. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 12:50: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9116837B423 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34KnYr71142; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:49:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Benjamin Krueger" Cc: References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:49:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin writes: > Funny. And not 4 months ago I was told I > could go to work for MSFT at a salary > higher than the industry rate. MSFT starting raising salaries around 1999, when the company's stock first started showing signs that it would not be doubling in value anymore. > Stock was not even mentioned, and it didn't > need mentioning. The stock hasn't been worth mentioning for the past two years or so. > I couldn't in good faith work for a company > who's products I don't enjoy using, and wouldn't > recommend for many situations. It's unfortunate that you allow prejudice to interfere with what might have been a great opportunity. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 12:53: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D097037B430 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 24D9518FA; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B3318F9; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:52:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:52:08 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <016301c1dc13$56f439a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't know that years of technical support looks very flattering on a > r=E9sum=E9, although I ended up in nearly similar circumstances myself, s= imply > because decent jobs for software engineers are scarce in France. =09Probally not, but add in all the projects I've headed up, the changes I've helped make here, the number of different software and hardware environments I've been supporting certainly does. It's not like I'm supporting one product and a bunch of similiar products. Not to mention company specific and industry specific certifications that I've added to my resume. > > Luckily I'm with a company that pays it's help > > desk people VERY well. >=20 > That won't help if you are laid off. =09I won't get laid off. Three totally seperate companies in three different industries would have to go totally bankrupt for that to happen. I'm at the top of the bracket when reviews come around consistently, and apparently my manager told the head of our division that I'm their most valuable employee, and that they needed to do whatever they could to hold onto me. (After I had discussed with the same manager transfering to another department.) Sure I may still somehow get laid off tommorrow, but I certainly don't lay awake at night about it. The chances are about as likely as me winning at the lottery. > > Not knowing what that next phone call is going > > to be keeps me going and gives me a challenge > > to look forward too. >=20 > That might indeed be motivating, IF you have the tools to actually resolv= e > the problems that come in. But many technical support organizations don'= t > have that; it costs money, and few companies want to spend anything more > than absolutely necessary on technical support. =09Perhaps you've noticed that I don't work for what you consider to be typical? (Or what I call - low end, there are lots of good tech support companies out there.) The fact is that there are many companies that value their tech support highly and pay for it willingly. Of course having the potential to loose millions of dollars an hour or billions of dollars a day may impact that slightly. =09Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 13: 6:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 50F1B37B416 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:06:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 54654 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 21:06:21 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.49229.12865.341668@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:06:21 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Randall Hamilton" , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <006401c1db8f$b4f66f20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.37605.851236.651200@guru.mired.org> <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.38785.141595.336871@guru.mired.org> <006401c1db8f$b4f66f20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <006401c1db8f$b4f66f20$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > Mike writes: > > Sure, I may have to buy from a more limited > > set than you do, but the small set I use is > > includes everything I need, which is all that > > matters. > It's all that matters to you. But the rest of the world needs a lot more > hardware, and an OS that doesn't support all that hardware matters an awful > lot to them. Uh - let's see, I've got a printer, scanner, USB SmartMedia reader, and an OH 323 video hookup (OH 323 is the standard that MS's netmeeting follows), Palm connection, and a CD burner. I chose to buy a smartmedia reader because the camera I have is sufficient for my needs and the reader costs less than a USB camera. I haven't bought a DVD burner because I'm waiting for the standards to shake out some. I watch DVD's on my PS2, not the computer, so I haven't bought a DVD player. However, all of those things - USB camera, DVD reader and burner - are available with FreeBSD. There's nothing I can think of that is both in common use and unavailable for FreeBSD. Would you care to quite making vague claims, and actually provide something concrete in the form of a list of hardware I'm not using that everyone else needs and I can't get for FreeBSD? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 13: 7:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B6737B416 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:07:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g34L6fe05524; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:06:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:06:41 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Benjamin Krueger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404130641.E2470@rain.macguire.net> References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:49:35PM +0200 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Anthony Atkielski (anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) [020404 12:50]: > Benjamin writes: > > > Funny. And not 4 months ago I was told I > > could go to work for MSFT at a salary > > higher than the industry rate. > > MSFT starting raising salaries around 1999, when the company's stock first > started showing signs that it would not be doubling in value anymore. > > > Stock was not even mentioned, and it didn't > > need mentioning. > > The stock hasn't been worth mentioning for the past two years or so. > > > I couldn't in good faith work for a company > > who's products I don't enjoy using, and wouldn't > > recommend for many situations. > > It's unfortunate that you allow prejudice to interfere with what might have > been a great opportunity. I've little interest in becoming yet another Windows programmer. I would rather not build the foundation of my career on a company which is currently juggling numerous lawsuits, combating ever slowing new sales, struggling to put a new revenue stream in place in the form of .Net, all while trying to salvage their image as a software house that produces insecure and buggy software. Like I said, I couldn't in good faith work for a company I wouldn't recommend. I'm not sure where the prejudice lies; I've worked with their products and found them lacking for a good many situations. I have to wonder what kind of person would suggest I forgo my principles and scruples for money though. Feel free to respond if you like, however I'll consider this thread over. Conversing with you is like chasing rabbits; you keep dodging around, and refuse to stand behind any particular argument. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 13:10: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 188D337B421 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 54755 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 21:09:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.49430.142508.960515@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:09:42 -0600 To: "Randall Hamilton" Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <00c901c1db78$e64255b0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.37605.851236.651200@guru.mired.org> <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.38785.141595.336871@guru.mired.org> <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.40067.230080.806545@guru.mired.org> <009b01c1db6f$fca61480$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.41974.162478.960468@guru.mired.org> <00a501c1db75$9cf9fcd0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.44009.426543.851156@guru.mired.org> <00c901c1db78$e64255b0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <00c901c1db78$e64255b0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG>, Randall Hamilton typed: > > > In <00a501c1db75$9cf9fcd0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG>, Randall Hamilton > typed: > > > > Personally, I think your definitions are badly skewed. A desktop > > > > machine is a machine that sits on someone's desk so they can use it > > > > for whatever needs they have. A workstation is either a machine that > > > > runs one application, or a desktop that had a fancy label hung on it > > > > to raise the price. A workstation *used* to be a high end desktop that > > > > used SCSI drives and similar high-grade hardware, but that's been > > > > polluted by the second definition above. > > > No..i believe my discriptions work just fine for me. while you are used > to > > True, but it's out of line with a large chunk of reality. > believe what you wish. I believ what I see. > > > seeing desktops used in offices...i normally see workstations. while > > > workstations WERE highend machines 10 years ago..the general definition > of a > > > workstation is an office machine nowadays. > > That's the second of my two definitions, from a different > > perspective. A workstation *used* to be a high end machine. So PC > > makers starting hanging that moniker on desktop machines to raise the > > price, thus watering the term down to what you're using. However, the > > believe that those are "low end machines" is false. Sure, some of them > > may be. Then again, so are some home machines. On the other hand, if > > the person who's using it is doing video conferencing over the network > > as part of their job, they've got lots of CPU and a fat pipe - among > > other things. > *shrug* > i suppose that the myrid of companies that popped up selling all different > kinds of thin-clients and imachines were for the CAD software then? No, they were for the home market. I didn't see anyone trying to sell them to businesses, just to consumers who didn't want to deal with complete computers. > if you need further information on what general companies run...simply walk > into any middle sized office building. rest assured that all the machines in > those cubicles are not high powered CAD rendering machines...but old and > rather weak machines that tend to run office..outlook and really cute > backgrounds on thier windows machines...that are just adorable. I've worked at those sites. You're right - most of the machines are old boxes that go to people who don't need specialized applications. However, the majority of the cash spent on hardware is spent on high-end machines for the people who need them. As the boxes get old, they get handed down to the people who don't need them, then sold - or given - to the employees after they've been completely depreciated. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 13:16: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5865937B420 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 54843 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 21:15:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.49785.160822.409246@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:15:37 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Randall Hamilton , Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <3CABC34C.C9473DE@mindspring.com> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <000f01c1db68$0bbad580$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.37605.851236.651200@guru.mired.org> <004901c1db69$9a1cc3f0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.38785.141595.336871@guru.mired.org> <007601c1db6c$9daac550$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.40067.230080.806545@guru.mired.org> <009b01c1db6f$fca61480$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.41974.162478.960468@guru.mired.org> <00a501c1db75$9cf9fcd0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <15531.44009.426543.851156@guru.mired.org> <3CABC34C.C9473DE@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3CABC34C.C9473DE@mindspring.com>, Terry Lambert typed: > Mike Meyer wrote: > On a related not, I have never seen a "multimedia" machine > that could do oils or acrylics, generate smells or tacticle > output, or read minds. > > Mostly it means "We put a CDROM, soundcard and graphics card > into this hunk of junk". Somtimes, it's a "deluxe multimedia > machine". I think this is code for "We included speakers, and > you can plug them into the wall, instead of buying lots of > batteries". Gods, yes. I just stopped my brother from buying one such hunk of junk. At least, I hope I did. 2GHz Athlon, SB Live 5.1 sound, with speakers and DVD player. But it had an 20Gig 5400 RPM drive, a .27mm dp monitor and a 250 watt power supply. Yuch. > One of the tricks marketroids play is to use words incorrectly > in an intentional bid to confuse the user into believing they > are getting something they want, as opposed to something that > someone has too much of in a warehouse this month. Yup. As my example illustrates, they try and focus attention on a single number, so they can sub cheap hardware everywhere else. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 13:23:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF87A37B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 54964 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 21:23:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.50244.102425.795045@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:23:16 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Randall Hamilton" , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > Mike writes: > > No problem. You can find it at > http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/papers/windowing.html > That's just a discussion of window managers. There is far more to a desktop > OS than a window manager. Not for common window management tasks. > It's odd that the second-place desktop OS, the Mac, uses essentially the > same interface as the first-place desktop OS. If the design is so bad, why > are the two leading operating systems using it? Apple's original design was intended to make life easy for casual computer users, not for the relatively intense usage that is typical today. And MS looks almost exactly like the Mac for the same reason that BeOS did - they copied it from the Mac. > > Where's yours? > I have only my empirical evaluation, and it is probably not entirely > objective. In other words, you were talking through your hat, and letting your biases control what you said, instead of actually having anything objective. > > Since you didn't list these putative > > advantages ... > Since operating systems are not normally limited to window managers, with > all other components being ignored, I didn't think it necessary to list the > rest. I think you aren't listing them because they don't exist. If they do, go ahead and list them and quit ducking the issues. > > > It is not cost-effective for me > > > to invest any time in learning something radically different, from a > > > business standpoint. > > I believe that your cost of learning is high > > enough that such an investment isn't worth > > your while. > You don't have enough information to determine my cost of learning, so this > is conjecture. Your own words say that your cost of learning is to high for it to make sense > > > > ... you can shave a *lot* of actions - and > > > > thus a lot of time - off those tasks. > > > And how much additional revenue will this bring in? > > That depends on how fast you work and how much > > you charge for your time. > Only if all else is equal, which it isn't. Of course, if I press you for details on "all else", you won't have anything. > > Those same people will also realize that just > > because this holds true for some people doesn't > > mean it holds true for them all. > Nothing holds true for everyone, but the fact that a minority disagrees > doesn't make the majority wrong. The existence of that minority proves that the majority that insists that everyone is just like them is wrong. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 13:38:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 770C337B490 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 55307 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 21:38:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.51129.310743.350121@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:38:01 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <3CAB6307.2071.1076171A@localhost> <008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > Netscape could barely even write a browser; That's simply false. In fact, one of the major problems with Netscape as a browser was that they kept adding things to it over and above it being a browser. If they had spent the effort they put into Netscape Communicator on Netscape Navigator, they might well have had an excellent browser. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 14:32:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2635737B41A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:32:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34MVer71414; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:31:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000601c1dc28$7db4ad80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Rick Hamell" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:31:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rick writes: > I won't get laid off. And the stock market will never crash, and the World Trade Center will be an inspiring work of engineering for generations to come. > Three totally seperate companies in three > different industries would have to go > totally bankrupt for that to happen. Only three? Are you keeping your résumé up to date? > Perhaps you've noticed that I don't work for what > you consider to be typical? Perhaps you've noticed that I'm not describing your life, but the the state of technical support in general. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 14:34: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B0B37B41A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:34:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34MXxr71425; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:33:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000d01c1dc28$d09542d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Benjamin Krueger" Cc: "Benjamin Krueger" , References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404130641.E2470@rain.macguire.net> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:33:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin writes: > I've little interest in becoming yet another > Windows programmer. It looks good on a résumé. > I would rather not build the foundation of my > career on a company which is currently juggling > numerous lawsuits, combating ever slowing new > sales, struggling to put a new revenue stream > in place in the form of .Net, all while trying > to salvage their image as a software house that > produces insecure and buggy software. I guess you could work for a company that is really stable, like Apple, Netscape, or Arthur Andersen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 14:38:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F12837B41B for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:38:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34Mc8r71445; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:38:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Randall Hamilton" , References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org><003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.50244.102425.795045@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:38:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Not for common window management tasks. Most people using desktop computers are interested in more than just window management. > Apple's original design was intended to make > life easy for casual computer users, not for > the relatively intense usage that is typical > today. I don't see any typically intense use. > And MS looks almost exactly like the Mac > for the same reason that BeOS did - they > copied it from the Mac. In the same way that the Mac copied it from Smalltalk? If it's such a bad idea, why is it being copied over and over? > In other words, you were talking through > your hat, and letting your biases control > what you said, instead of actually having > anything objective. I used the words that best conveyed my meaning; "other words" are not necessary or accurate. > I think you aren't listing them because they > don't exist. If they do, go ahead and list > them and quit ducking the issues. Well, there are 100,000 applications or so available for Windows, and virtually none of them will run on any other platform. > Of course, if I press you for details on "all > else", you won't have anything. If I press you for details, you won't have anything, either. So what? > The existence of that minority proves that > the majority that insists that everyone is > just like them is wrong. The majority usually insists that most people are like them, and they are right. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 14:42:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0817937B41B for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34Mger71461; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:42:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <001701c1dc2a$073d9ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , References: <3CAB6307.2071.1076171A@localhost><008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.51129.310743.350121@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 00:42:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > That's simply false. Then where did they hide their browser that worked? The one they distributed was filled with bugs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 14:49:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F9937B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g34Mn6827890 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:49:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:49:06 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020404144906.A28470@ehlke.net> References: <000601c1dc28$7db4ad80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <000601c1dc28$7db4ad80$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:31:40AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:31:40AM +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > And the stock market will never crash, and the World Trade Center will be an > inspiring work of engineering for generations to come. > And IE is the greatest thing of all time, and Microsoft write great code, and if I think *real* hard, I can FLY! -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 14:52: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 076F337B416 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 56830 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 22:51:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.55566.545491.30092@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:51:58 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Randall Hamilton" , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.50244.102425.795045@guru.mired.org> <001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > Mike writes: > > Not for common window management tasks. > Most people using desktop computers are interested in more than just window > management. Actually, most people using desktop computers are totally uninterested in window management - it's something they have to do to get real work done. Only people who are actually interested in improving their work environment so they can get more work done care about such things. > I don't see any typically intense use. I didn't say it was typical. > In the same way that the Mac copied it from Smalltalk? Apple didn't copy it from Smalltalk, but they did get it from Xerox. > If it's such a bad idea, why is it being copied over and over? Because the people doing the copying are to lazy to actually investigate the problem and design something better. > I used the words that best conveyed my meaning; "other words" are not > necessary or accurate. No, you used words that gave your spin on thing. I expanded those to the truth. > Well, there are 100,000 applications or so available for Windows, and > virtually none of them will run on any other platform. True. But there are similar numbers of applications available for Unix, and virtually none of them run on Windows. Is there a point in here, or just more of your usual arm-waving bull? > > Of course, if I press you for details on "all > > else", you won't have anything. > If I press you for details, you won't have anything, either. Bullshit. I provide details if you ask. You don't ask, because you know I can back up what I say and you can't. Let's see: I listed the hardware I have, you haven't listed any that is in common use that I can't use on FreeBSD. I gave you an objective paper on window management, you haven't got one. You refuse to provide an application list, because you know everything you do can be done on FreeBSD, except for the trap of proprietary document formats. And so on. > > The existence of that minority proves that > > the majority that insists that everyone is > > just like them is wrong. > The majority usually insists that most people are like them, and they are > right. So why don't you do that, and not bother those of us who are differnt from the majority, and act surprised and upset when your biases turn out to be false for us? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 14:53:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC9B237B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 56915 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 22:53:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.55631.464055.702146@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:53:03 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: , Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <001701c1dc2a$073d9ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <3CAB6307.2071.1076171A@localhost> <008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.51129.310743.350121@guru.mired.org> <001701c1dc2a$073d9ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <001701c1dc2a$073d9ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > Mike writes: > > That's simply false. > Then where did they hide their browser that worked? The one they > distributed was filled with bugs. They didn't write it, because they were to busy writing other things. Next time, try *reading* what was posted. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:16: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B62E37B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34NFpr71576; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:15:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002601c1dc2e$aa7e6120$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org><003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15532.50244.102425.795045@guru.mired.org><001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.55566.545491.30092@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:15:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Only people who are actually interested in > improving their work environment so they can > get more work done care about such things. Or people who don't actually have anything else to do. > Apple didn't copy it from Smalltalk, but > they did get it from Xerox. What Xerox product did it come from, if not Smalltalk? > No, you used words that gave your spin on thing. > I expanded those to the truth. Why do my statements constitute a "spin," if yours represent the "truth"? > But there are similar numbers of applications > available for Unix ... But they are not applications used by desktop users. > ... and virtually none of them run on Windows. Windows is not a server. > Let's see: I listed the hardware I have, > you haven't listed any that is in common use > that I can't use on FreeBSD. Nikon scanners. That's why I bought a Windows XP machine. > I gave you an objective paper on window > management, you haven't got one. I have objective papers on photography and chess, and I suspect you don't. But they are just as irrelevant to this discussion as window management. > You refuse to provide an application list ... I provided a very long list once before, if you recall. > So why don't you do that, and not bother those > of us who are differnt from the majority, and > act surprised and upset when your biases turn > out to be false for us? It's entertaining to rattle the case of the angry young males. They never catch on. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:17:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41AF37B41D for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34NGfr71580; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:16:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002b01c1dc2e$c7ec6810$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <3CAB6307.2071.1076171A@localhost><008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15532.51129.310743.350121@guru.mired.org><001701c1dc2a$073d9ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.55631.464055.702146@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:16:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > They didn't write it, because they were to busy > writing other things. It had their name on it, so they wrote it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:24:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7749137B43A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 57638 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 23:24:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.57497.693350.816910@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:24:09 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <002b01c1dc2e$c7ec6810$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <3CAB6307.2071.1076171A@localhost> <008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.51129.310743.350121@guru.mired.org> <001701c1dc2a$073d9ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.55631.464055.702146@guru.mired.org> <002b01c1dc2e$c7ec6810$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <002b01c1dc2e$c7ec6810$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > > They didn't write it, because they were to busy > > writing other things. > It had their name on it, so they wrote it. So where is it? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:25:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9612737B437 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 57604 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 23:23:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.57476.121017.33555@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:23:48 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <002601c1dc2e$aa7e6120$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.50244.102425.795045@guru.mired.org> <001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.55566.545491.30092@guru.mired.org> <002601c1dc2e$aa7e6120$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <002601c1dc2e$aa7e6120$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > Mike writes: > > Only people who are actually interested in > > improving their work environment so they can > > get more work done care about such things. > Or people who don't actually have anything else to do. Like learning to juggle, yeah. > > Apple didn't copy it from Smalltalk, but > > they did get it from Xerox. > What Xerox product did it come from, if not Smalltalk? It could have been any number of them. The alpha workstation, for instance. > Why do my statements constitute a "spin," if yours represent the "truth"? Because mine have an objective measurement backing them. > > But there are similar numbers of applications > > available for Unix ... > But they are not applications used by desktop users. Neither are most of the ones for Windows. > > ... and virtually none of them run on Windows. > Windows is not a server. All those "smart people" you > > Let's see: I listed the hardware I have, > > you haven't listed any that is in common use > > that I can't use on FreeBSD. > Nikon scanners. That's why I bought a Windows XP machine. You can use those with FreeBSD. > I have objective papers on photography and chess, and I suspect you don't. > But they are just as irrelevant to this discussion as window management. I have to agree about the relevance of most everything you say to the discussion. I keep hoping you'll provide facts that might actually demonstrate something. So far you haven't disappointed me by doing so. > > You refuse to provide an application list ... > I provided a very long list once before, if you recall. Yes, and there wasn't anything on it that you couldn't replace with a similar Unix application. > > So why don't you do that, and not bother those > > of us who are differnt from the majority, and > > act surprised and upset when your biases turn > > out to be false for us? > It's entertaining to rattle the case of the angry young males. They never > catch on. Neither do idiots. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:29: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1595F37B416 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0517.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.7] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tGex-0006s4-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:28:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3CACE19B.417D3651@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:28:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Ehlke Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404151958.A31008@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020404053315.M20012@ehlke.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:19:58PM +0200, Miguel Mendez wrote: > > Look no further and buy an Altair 8080 > > (http://www.cyberstreet.com/hcs/museum/imsai.htm). Once you get used to > > the front panel, you'll never be able to work with that mouse crap again > > That's not an Altair. I *loved* the IMSAI 8080. It was the first real computer I got to *touch*. I'll bet I could still toggle in the paper tape reader load loop on the front panel of one... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:30:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D273A37B41A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34NUTr71629; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:30:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003001c1dc30$b56ff9c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org><003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15532.50244.102425.795045@guru.mired.org><001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15532.55566.545491.30092@guru.mired.org><002601c1dc2e$aa7e6120$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.57476.121017.33555@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:30:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > It could have been any number of them. The alpha > workstation, for instance. I remember Smalltalk, and when I first saw a Mac, Smalltalk is the first thing that came to mind. I'm not the only one to see the resemblance or mention this link. > Because mine have an objective measurement > backing them. I haven't seen any objective measurement. > Neither are most of the ones for Windows. Virtually all Windows applications are desktop applications. Virtually all UNIX applications are not. > You can use those with FreeBSD. No, you cannot. Nikon Scan does not run on FreeBSD. > Yes, and there wasn't anything on it that you > couldn't replace with a similar Unix application. A "similar" application won't do; it has to be the _same_ application. Like Photoshop on the Mac vs. Photoshop on Windows: same application, not just a "similar" application. > Neither do idiots. They aren't as entertaining, though. Angry young males know when they are being manipulated, but they are so unable to control their emotions that they can't do anything about it. Idiots simply don't know. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:31: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CE937B417 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0517.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.7] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tGgp-0001sh-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:30:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3CACE20F.B6261F3E@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:30:23 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Pete Ehlke , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404151958.A31008@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020404053315.M20012@ehlke.net> <20020404153742.B31008@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez wrote: > Sorry, lack of coffee. I meant IMSAI, of course. And I forgot to mention > that all 1337 h@X0rs use IMSAI boxes too, running a variant of NetBSD, > as seen in Wargames :-) Those were refits; they used the S100 bus, but they were LSI-11's (PDP-11's on a chip). Two of them working together did all the graphics in that movie. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:31:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626FD37B427 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g34NV9r71636; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:31:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003501c1dc30$cd0e1e40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <3CAB6307.2071.1076171A@localhost><008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15532.51129.310743.350121@guru.mired.org><001701c1dc2a$073d9ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15532.55631.464055.702146@guru.mired.org><002b01c1dc2e$c7ec6810$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.57497.693350.816910@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:31:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > So where is it? I have two versions of it here on my PC: 4.7 and 6.0. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:34: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BCAF37B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:33:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 57955 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 23:33:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.58056.607048.515238@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:33:28 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <003001c1dc30$b56ff9c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.50244.102425.795045@guru.mired.org> <001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.55566.545491.30092@guru.mired.org> <002601c1dc2e$aa7e6120$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.57476.121017.33555@guru.mired.org> <003001c1dc30$b56ff9c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <003001c1dc30$b56ff9c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > Mike writes: > I haven't seen any objective measurement. Yes you did. > > You can use those with FreeBSD. > No, you cannot. Nikon Scan does not run on FreeBSD. Yes, you can. > > Yes, and there wasn't anything on it that you > > couldn't replace with a similar Unix application. > A "similar" application won't do; it has to be the _same_ application. Like > Photoshop on the Mac vs. Photoshop on Windows: same application, not just a > "similar" application. So you're in the proprietary document trap. You have my sympathy. > They aren't as entertaining, though. Yes, you are. Otherwise I would have stopped long ago. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:34:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7946C37B41D for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 58005 invoked by uid 100); 4 Apr 2002 23:34:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15532.58113.148502.301837@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:34:25 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix In-Reply-To: <003501c1dc30$cd0e1e40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <3CAB6307.2071.1076171A@localhost> <008101c1db91$fb81c050$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.51129.310743.350121@guru.mired.org> <001701c1dc2a$073d9ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.55631.464055.702146@guru.mired.org> <002b01c1dc2e$c7ec6810$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.57497.693350.816910@guru.mired.org> <003501c1dc30$cd0e1e40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <003501c1dc30$cd0e1e40$0a00000a@atkielski.com>, Anthony Atkielski typed: > I have two versions of it here on my PC: 4.7 and 6.0. So you found what you asked for. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:43:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E32B37B417 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0517.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.7] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tGsw-0004Yx-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:43:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3CACE4FF.16DCF023@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:42:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > D) People who write code in a professional manner are smart. > > Probably correct, but this doesn't affect any of the above. "Smart > people write code in a professional manner" would be significant, if > it were true. > > To summarize: > > A) Microsoft developers are smart > B) Microsoft developers don't document their code > C) Microsoft does not require developers to document their code > D) Programmers who document their code are smart > > There are no conclusions possible based on the above four premises. That's because D is formulated incorrectly; it's made up of an incorrect syllogism: i) programmers who document their code are smart ii) therefore all documented code is written by smart programmers c.v.: i) a trout is a fish ii) therefore all fish are trout The correct (D) is: D) Developers who are smart document their code. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:49:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A32837B417 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0517.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.7] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tGyj-0000K6-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:49:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3CACE665.C04A88BB@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:48:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brooks Davis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <007c01c1db91$63596b70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404082044.A16114@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brooks Davis wrote: > There's a rather significant fallacy in your argument. What you write > for D is "if people write code in a professional manner, then they are > smart." That's probably generally true. What you implied you said in > the last paragraph is "if someone is smart, then they write code in a > professional manner" which is absolutly, positivity, beyond any shadow > of a doubt, FALSE. I know, I work with code written by scientists. I was wondering how long it would take before this thread made it to a discussion of the disctinction between "smart" and "wise"... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 15:53:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3E437B419 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0517.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.7] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tH2Z-0005xy-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:53:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3CACE754.BB0D6C01@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:52:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Mendez Cc: William Carrel , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404185612.A31785@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez wrote: > Well, I googled for those Microsoft Interview Questions, and, I've found > the reason why Microsft OSs crash so much: > > # You have been assigned to design Bill Gates bathroom. Naturally, cost > # is not a consideration. You may not speak to Bill. > > No surprise, they're hiring plumbers to code Windows! :-P Bill's kid: "Dad! Can I play in the holodeck?" Bill: "You can go to the bathroom AFTER you finish your homework." -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 17:29:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CAE37B41E for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0517.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.7] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tIXl-0006VL-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:29:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:29:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > The disclaimer in the BSDL is a just disclaimer, like that which should > be used when putting a work into the public domain. I'm fairly sure > that the disclaimer is just a notice to whom it may concern which lets > them know the law that exists independent of the disclaimer. Such > notices reduce frivolous suits and have some benefit in lawsuit penalty > determinations (AFAIK). What we call the BSDL contains text for a > license (AKA permission) including conditions plus a disclaimer. > > Acceptance of the license is not dependent on acceptance or even > acknowledgment of the disclaimer. Furthermore, one may easily lawfully > own and use the software without ever seeing the BSDL, and then > successfully sue the copyright owner (unless he can't successfuly sue > regardless of any disclaimer). I think the DMCA binds ytou to the terms of the license, regardless. I think that even without the DMCA, only the license permits you to use the code. The issue comes down to the legality of the contract, which requires an exchange of consideration. The consideration, in this case is, I think, the acceptance of the disclaimer. In the 4 clause case, it also includes acceptance of the non-use of the licensors name in advertising, without permission. While it's true that you can sue for anything, the chances of winning something like this at the appellate level are very small, since any suit at the appelate level would attract the interest of the SPA, RIAA, and a host of others who would not like to see such a precedent appear in case law. And since such things are decided on the basis of a preponderance of evidence... I rather expect that they will provide several semi trailers full of evidence to back you not losing to the person sueing you. > > > Do you know of any cases where people have been successfully sued over > > > information like software, where a license contract was not involved? > > > > No. But I don't know anyone stupid enough to release code > > that way. > > Don' be so sure. Here is the complete legal notice of > /usr/share/mk/bsd.sgml.mk: > > # This file is in the public domain. > > Many of Red Hat's scripts are (were?) treated similarly. The question is whether there are deep pockets behind that. People sue for money. Even in negligence or malpractice cases, the attempt is not to find true responsibility, but to lay the bulk of responsibility on the party with the deepest pockets possible, thus achieving the highest possible return. That's why when there is a malpractice case, the doctor, their practice, the hospital, the hospital administrators, and the insurance companies are all named as parties. > > I *do* know that people and companies have been sued for > > non-performance of contracts, and for failure of life > > support systems (e.g. air bag controllers in automobiles > > not recognizing children in the front passenger seat, or > > erroneously deploying), and lost a great deal of money as > > a result. > > But all of those involve "consideration" and/or contracts with explicit > or implied blah, blah, blah... Yes. Like the consideration that you not use my name in advertising, or the consideration that you hold me harmless. 8-). > > Me not hearing about this happening with code placed in > > the public domain is probably more of a comment on the > > quality of what, until recently, has been available for > > free, rather than a comment on a crisis of conscience on > > the part of the people who would normally sue saying, "Well, > > it was public domain, so I won't sue". > > Well, it took the lawyers a hundred years or so to discover the > Tobacco pot of gold. I suspect that they just haven't smelled > enough money around PD software. I suspect from personal experience > that Red Had's PD scripts have damaged many people. By installing Red Hat Linux successfully? 8-) 8-) 8-). Reminds me of a joke... A: "I hear if you play the Windows NT CD backwards, there's a Satanic message!" B: "That's not the worst! If you play it *forwards*, it installs Windows NT!" > > The license in the BSD case specifically requires agreement > > for use. The GPL doesn't require full compliance for use, as > > partial compliance is permissable, as long as there is no > > distribution. > > Neither license is even involved for some uses. (See 17 USC 117). > The license is required for publishing and those who own a copy of the > software so published may legally execute it without regard for the > license. And executing it is likely to damage them, to some degree. No. The BSD license *specifically* states: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. This includes use and performance rights. 8-). > > In either case, however, you are in violation of the DMCA, if > > you download the code, without agreeing to the license. > > How sure of that are you? I suspect that there must be some mechanism > like shrinkwrap or accept buttons or something. But then I HAVE seen > one court opinion which said it was good enough to provide such notice > after the software is obtained as long as the user has the opportunity > to undo the deal. But I doubt that the DMCA requires one to also > download source code to search for licenses. And I repeat, the BSDL > doesn't require one to waive warranty and liability as part of the > license agreement; it only claims that there are none. Mississipi and Missouri both have appelate level rulings that uphold the validity of shrink wrap licenses; I have not checked the case law on it for some time, but I'm pretty sure that other states have followed suit. It's pretty ironic: the state mottow of Missouri is "The ``show me'' state". > > > So I wonder if the law doesn't already imply a hold harmless. It WOULD > > > be good to make it explicit, of course. > > > > It doesn't. There is already a well established doctorine of > > "attractive nuisance" in common law, which could be applied > > to software that would save you a lrage chunk of money, but > > which then results in harm. Like the unfenced swimming pool, > > where the owner is considered negligent for not putting up a > > fence, if a crimial trespasses on their property, and drowns > > in the pool while stealing free use of the facilities. > > Of course, and I have no doubt that stupid juries would see no > differences in the cases, but that's why we have judges and uncommon > law. There are many arguments I won't go into why it is wrong to hold > PD publishers to a higher standard than prorietary publishers and I > believe that courts have acknowledged a similar concept in their > mentions of "consideration" in contract cases. There is no higher standard. There is only a preponderance of evidence. The proprietary publishers tends to have more money, and therefore can manufacture more evidence, thus more easily achieving the preponderance. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 17:44:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5EFE37B41A for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g351ib907004; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:44:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:44:37 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <20020404174437.B17909@ehlke.net> References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr><3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com><20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr><009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org><012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org><005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org><001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG><009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org><00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404151958.A31008@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020404053315.M20012@ehlke.net> <3CACE19B.417D3651@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CACE19B.417D3651@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:28:27PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:28:27PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I *loved* the IMSAI 8080. It was the first real computer I > got to *touch*. I'll bet I could still toggle in the paper > tape reader load loop on the front panel of one... > I guess I was lucky. Or cursed, depending on your perspective. First Real Computer I got to touch was a CDC Cyber 174. -Pete -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 17:50: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF72537B419 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0517.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.7] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tIrJ-0005ou-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:49:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAD02A1.92763210@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:49:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <012601c1dadb$104d5100$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.2846.277278.29276@guru.mired.org> <005e01c1db44$e10d2a40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.27851.19169.720598@guru.mired.org> <001301c1db55$7c883950$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> <009201c1db5e$41b1baa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.33743.830853.456500@guru.mired.org> <00c801c1db62$baa46b20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15531.36674.46968.714882@guru.mired.org> <003e01c1db8d$88a745e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.50244.102425.795045@guru.mired.org> <001201c1dc29$6503eb10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.55566.545491.30092@guru.mired.org> <002601c1dc2e$aa7e6120$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15532.57476.121017.33555@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > It's entertaining to rattle the case of the angry young males. They never > > catch on. > > Neither do idiots. They also have a tendency to assume that everyone else is: o Angry o Young o Male I've "plonked" him on three mailing lists, so far. If he posts on others, I'll see him, and if he emails me directly, I'll see him, but if it's to those lists, I won't. Unless fools like you hit me with backsplash like this, of course... ;^). This is my general "plonking" policy, because some people can't help but act out in certain forums, and yet remain perfectly sane, rational, and lucid in others. If I see him elsewhere, and he's sane, licid, and rational, I'll read his posts. I currently only "plonk" three people in a few forums, and, of course, SPAM'mers. One of the people I "plonk" in a particular forum is actually a pretty nice person, when you get them out of that forum and into another venue. But in the particular forum where they are "plonk'ed", they're pretty much a rabid pit-bull. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 20: 2:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B3637B416 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B950BD8B; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25361; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:02:37 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g3542qS30766; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:02:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Apr 2002 20:02:52 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 81 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > I think the DMCA binds you to the terms of the license, > regardless. I think that even without the DMCA, only the > license permits you to use the code. The issue comes down > to the legality of the contract, which requires an exchange > of consideration. The consideration, in this case is, I > think, the acceptance of the disclaimer. In the 4 clause > case, it also includes acceptance of the non-use of the > licensors name in advertising, without permission. I doubt if even the DMCA can bind you to the terms of a license contract which doesn't exist. The text does, but the contract doesn't if the user of the code has never seen the text. Your items of consideration only help make the point, because the user has not indicated acceptance of the disclaimer; he doesn't even need to do that to accept the license. It's a good guess that the DMCA requires some kind of clear notice to downloaders before the downloading of no-cost software will be considered illegal. But I guess I need to read the DMCA. Argh. > The question is whether there are deep pockets behind that. That accounts for the lack of huge numbers of suits, but not for the absense of them, methinks. > Yes. Like the consideration that you not use my name in > advertising, or the consideration that you hold me harmless. For the purposes of the argument, yes, like that; but not even such low-value consideration is involved in the "running" of PD or BSDL'd (or GPL'd) software (assuming the DMCA doesn't forbid it). > No. The BSD license *specifically* states: > > The Regents of the University of California. All > rights reserved. > > This includes use and performance rights. 8-). There are no such rights FOR SOFTWARE in the 17USC106 "Exclusive rights..." list and I've read quite a bit on the subject and have never seen anyone show any evidence for such rights for software. The FSF, for instance, is clear to note that the GPL doesn't cover "use". The BSDL's mention of "use" is moot, AFAIK. There isn't even an exclusive copy right, for the "use" case covered by 17USC117 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/117.html) which is widely interpreted as "running" the software. > Mississipi and Missouri both have appelate level rulings > that uphold the validity of shrink wrap licenses; I have I've seen it (or something similar), but I don't see why it matters. I'm just theorizing that such licenses are probably necessary (in the absence of a signed contract) to give a disclaimer most of the legal effect desired because only such licenses can restrict the running of a copy of software (with its attendant damage potential). > > [...] There are many arguments I won't go into why it is wrong to hold > > PD publishers to a higher standard than prorietary publishers and I > > believe that courts have acknowledged a similar concept in their > > mentions of "consideration" in contract cases. > > There is no higher standard. There is only a preponderance of > evidence. Your mention of the higher standard is what started this thread. You said something to the effect that people have to keep software proprietary so their disclaimer has legal merit, implying that their disclaimer on PD software has no (or less) legal merit. I call that a higher standard for PD software. Maybe it isn't the best term. But I think both cases are essentially the same regarding a disclaimer for 17USC117 "use" because both may be legally obtained and "used" without ever even seeing the disclaimer. Either both are at significant legal risk, or neither are mostly because of the lack of or low value of consideration or for practical/sociological reasons. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 20:31:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fat_man.ascendency.net (12-250-130-72.client.attbi.com [12.250.130.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D110637B419 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mike (gateway [192.168.1.1]) by fat_man.ascendency.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g354TbI03188 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:29:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mike@ascendency.net) Reply-To: From: "Mike Loiterman" To: Subject: backup solutions Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 22:24:28 -0600 Message-ID: <001901c1dc59$c9f4fac0$0301a8c0@mike> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just wondering how feel about tape backups vs backing up to a hard drive. I suppose this is the stuff of "relgious wars" but I just wanted to get a bit of feedback. Thanks. Mike Loiterman mike@ascendency.net PGP Key 0xD1B9D18E - -- Please do not carbon copy me on list replies. I'll get my copy from the list. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 Comment: Message digitally signed by Mike Loiterman iQA/AwUBPK0m/GjZbUnRudGOEQJpFACcCrDoTxyIW04uB6nOmCIQiY3xmhUAnRKs GMQpA2n+pR6cNkL2iSYZCuBr =OorQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 21: 9:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6041337B65C for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3558BK39257; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:08:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:08:10 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Mike Loiterman Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: backup solutions In-Reply-To: <001901c1dc59$c9f4fac0$0301a8c0@mike> Message-ID: <20020404203229.K96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Mike Loiterman wrote: > Just wondering how feel about tape backups vs backing up to a hard > drive. I suppose this is the stuff of "relgious wars" but I just > wanted to get a bit of feedback. Thanks. my own preference is tape. tape.. 1. tape transfers between machines, and usually OSs fairly well. 2. tar(1) is usually very transferable between various flavours of UNIX. 3. tape, and tape drives, tend to be more reliable, and even if one part of them is damaged, you can usually recover data with little effort. hard disks.. 1. difficult to transfer between OSs. 2. difficult to transfer between machines 3. damage prone (head crashes, bad sectors as they get older etc). 4. even in redundant environments, the potential for dataloss is very high. 5. it's *very difficult* and *very expensive* to recover data from a damaged hard drive. hrm. i don't think this is really a religious debate. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 4 21:46:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE28F37B404 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0436.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.181] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tMYK-0004jb-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:46:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAD3A14.3C5ED003@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:45:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > I doubt if even the DMCA can bind you to the terms of a license > contract which doesn't exist. The text does, but the contract > doesn't if the user of the code has never seen the text. Your > items of consideration only help make the point, because the > user has not indicated acceptance of the disclaimer; he doesn't > even need to do that to accept the license. > > It's a good guess that the DMCA requires some kind of clear notice > to downloaders before the downloading of no-cost software will be > considered illegal. But I guess I need to read the DMCA. Argh. Yep. You need to read it. It makes "shrink wrap" licenses valid, which means that you can put them inside the box, and are bound by it because you opened the box, whether you read the license or not. Whether this is insane or not is irrelevent, so long as it is the law. > > The question is whether there are deep pockets behind that. > > That accounts for the lack of huge numbers of suits, but not > for the absense of them, methinks. I don't think Open Source is being used everywhere people think it is; for where it's being used, I think people are adding to it and thereby creating derivative works, for which they are predominantly responsible. > > Yes. Like the consideration that you not use my name in > > advertising, or the consideration that you hold me harmless. > > For the purposes of the argument, yes, like that; but not even such > low-value consideration is involved in the "running" of PD or BSDL'd (or > GPL'd) software (assuming the DMCA doesn't forbid it). For PD, that's true... that's the whole point, really: there is no contract, therefore there is no hold harmless. This is because even though you have stuck a notice on it, the access to the code is not subject to the consideration of compliance with the license. PD, by definition, doesn't have contingent access. > > No. The BSD license *specifically* states: > > > > The Regents of the University of California. All > > rights reserved. > > > > This includes use and performance rights. 8-). > > There are no such rights FOR SOFTWARE in the 17USC106 "Exclusive > rights..." list and I've read quite a bit on the subject and have never > seen anyone show any evidence for such rights for software. The FSF, > for instance, is clear to note that the GPL doesn't cover "use". The > BSDL's mention of "use" is moot, AFAIK. No. The GPL incorrectly uses the word "use" when they mean "utilize". > There isn't even an exclusive copy right, for the "use" case covered by > 17USC117 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/117.html) which is > widely interpreted as "running" the software. It's widely interpreted wrong. "Use" is as in "use in the preparation of a derivative work". > > Mississipi and Missouri both have appelate level rulings > > that uphold the validity of shrink wrap licenses; I have > > I've seen it (or something similar), but I don't see why it matters. Because the decision was made at the apellate level, which means that it's legally binding on inferior courts, and they are not permitted to rule in contradiction to the decision on future cases involving the same point of law. > I'm just theorizing that such licenses are probably necessary (in the > absence of a signed contract) to give a disclaimer most of the legal > effect desired because only such licenses can restrict the running of > a copy of software (with its attendant damage potential). This is the problem with the understanding. The licenses are the only things that *permit*. By default, Copyright restricts all use and utilization. This is because installation requires copying (for traditional installation; it would be interesting to see whether a bootable CDROM is considered "copying into memory"... it would also be interesting to see if such loading into memory constitutes "first use" or subsequent use; the backup provisions only apply to "first use"). > > > [...] There are many arguments I won't go into why it is wrong to hold > > > PD publishers to a higher standard than prorietary publishers and I > > > believe that courts have acknowledged a similar concept in their > > > mentions of "consideration" in contract cases. > > > > There is no higher standard. There is only a preponderance of > > evidence. > > Your mention of the higher standard is what started this thread. You > said something to the effect that people have to keep software > proprietary so their disclaimer has legal merit, implying that their > disclaimer on PD software has no (or less) legal merit. I call that > a higher standard for PD software. Maybe it isn't the best term. No... it's not. A "higher standard" is where there is differential treatment based on membership, or the lack thereof, in a select group. You've implied it, but not said it outright: The "higher standard" is a legitimate legal defense against enforcement. Actually, since we are talking civil, rather than criminal, there's no statutory enforcement involved, so there is no opportunity for a higher standard here. I think what you wanted to say is that PD authors should be permitted to obtain equal protection against litigation by disclaiming warranties and fitness. The answer is: they are not entitled to disclaim them without a contract, in which the recipient permits them to disclaim them as part of the consideration. This is why, in order to encourage PD works, there needs to be special consideration in the law to implicitly disclaim, by default, such things which are normally reasonably and customarily disclaimed. You *might* be able to get away with something like: "Subject to the following conditions, this code is placed in the public domain" I don't think that this would work, in practice, however, since "Public Domain" has special legal meaning. By making your placement in the public domain subject to terms, you are implying a contract with all of society, which I don't think you can do, even if the DMCA were found to be fully enforcible. THis is the interpretation that RIAA and MPAA is trying to enforce with DVD and the DMCA. > But I think both cases are essentially the same regarding a disclaimer > for 17USC117 "use" because both may be legally obtained and "used" > without ever even seeing the disclaimer. Either both are at significant > legal risk, or neither are mostly because of the lack of or low value of > consideration or for practical/sociological reasons. You have to read the code in order to prepare a derivative work. I think your claim might be correct, with regard to binaries. However, the UCBL requires that the license notice accompany distribution for the distribution to be legal, so one can argue that it's legally contingent on the acceptance of the license by the recipient, and that enforcement of acceptance is the responsibility of the distributor. The GPL fails a bit in this regard, in that it attempts to enforce against distribution of binaries as a seperate class, while at the same time permitting derivative works. the problem is, again, in their use of the word "use" rather than the word "utilize". If you feel incredibly strongly about it, you're always welcome to engage in a test case. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 5:34:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08CE37B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 05:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35DYrK01632 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:34:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19879 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:34:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3CADA7F4.3125276A@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 07:34:44 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: backup solutions References: <001901c1dc59$c9f4fac0$0301a8c0@mike> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My opinion on the matter differs depending on the use. For example, for a box that you don't have access to, hard disk backups are a good solution. They are also a good solution to save money (since a cheap IDE hard drive can hold a lot of data). With tape backups (or removable media in general), you have the added ability of taking the backup off site, so if your machine gets melted in a fire, you won't lose both. The other thing is, with a few tapes, you can keep a LOT of backed up material, with incrementals separate, whereas it takes more hard drive space to do that. In addition, you are somewhat limited to the amount of hard drive space you can have in a computer (assuming you were doing IDE, because SCSI would be cheaper to just buy a tape drive)- for instance, you can have 4 IDE devices, plus another IDE card (with 4 more devices), so you are limited to 8 drives (minus one for the drive you are backing up, and maybe minus one for a cd-rom/r/rw/etc), so possibly 6 drives for backup. Now, that can mean a lot of data backed up, but calculate the cost, and shop for a tape drive that is that price, plus some media, and there you are back at tape media again. So, all in all, for small, quick and easy, single machine backups, a hard drive is sufficient, but for anything other than that, I would say you would want to use tape. Eric Mike Loiterman wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Just wondering how feel about tape backups vs backing up to a hard > drive. I suppose this is the stuff of "relgious wars" but I just > wanted to get a bit of feedback. Thanks. > > Mike Loiterman > mike@ascendency.net > PGP Key 0xD1B9D18E > - -- > Please do not carbon copy me on list replies. I'll get my copy from > the list. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP 7.0.4 > Comment: Message digitally signed by Mike Loiterman > > iQA/AwUBPK0m/GjZbUnRudGOEQJpFACcCrDoTxyIW04uB6nOmCIQiY3xmhUAnRKs > GMQpA2n+pR6cNkL2iSYZCuBr > =OorQ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 7:42:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FA537BDCF for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a050.otenet.gr [212.205.215.50]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g35FYB2a006632; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:34:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g35FY1l5003248; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:34:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3531RT5000596; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:01:27 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:01:26 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Benjamin Krueger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020405030126.GA553@hades.hell.gr> References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-04-04 22:49, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Benjamin writes: > > I couldn't in good faith work for a company > > who's products I don't enjoy using, and wouldn't > > recommend for many situations. > > It's unfortunate that you allow prejudice to interfere with what might have > been a great opportunity. I don't think it's prejudice, but a tendency to keep oneself safe from the possibility of stress, when being forced to work in an environment where the tools are exactly those that one does not enjoy using. Of course this is MHO. - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 7:43:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37C937BDD2 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a050.otenet.gr [212.205.215.50]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g35FYA2a006625; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:34:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g35FY1l3003248; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:34:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3538OHW000640; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:08:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:08:23 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Benjamin Krueger , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020405030823.GB553@hades.hell.gr> References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404130641.E2470@rain.macguire.net> <000d01c1dc28$d09542d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000d01c1dc28$d09542d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-04-05 00:33, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Benjamin writes: > > > I've little interest in becoming yet another > > Windows programmer. > > It looks good on a r?sum?. The first section in a well written resume is titled "Objective". This usually defines what is important and what is not. You (or anyone else) can not possibly claim that you know what is important on everyone's resume :) - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 7:55:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB1F37B404 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08334; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 08:54:07 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405084626.00b8e360@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:53:54 -0700 To: "f.johan.beisser" , Mike Loiterman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: backup solutions Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020404203229.K96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <001901c1dc59$c9f4fac0$0301a8c0@mike> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:08 PM 4/4/2002, f.johan.beisser wrote: >my own preference is tape. > >tape.. > > 1. tape transfers between machines, and usually OSs fairly well. I've found that tape drives often do not read tapes written on other drives reliably. The electrical, rather than mechanical, interface of a hard drive eliminates that problem. > 2. tar(1) is usually very transferable between various flavours > of UNIX. tar(1) can be used on disks as well as tapes. > 3. tape, and tape drives, tend to be more reliable, I don't find this to be so. Tapes seem to become unreadable in less time, in part due to "print-through" and in part due to the fact that we're all living on a magnet (the Earth) and tape is not shielded from this and other magnetic fields. (Disk drives have a protective metal case.) >and even if > one part of them is damaged, you can usually recover data > with little effort. Hard drives have the same property. And damage is less likely because they're fully enclosed. >hard disks.. > > 1. difficult to transfer between OSs. If you're worried about this, use the Microsoft FAT format, which virtually everything can read. > 2. difficult to transfer between machines If removing the cover and inserting two cables is an issue, try the many readily available "quick swap" mounts used in RAID systms. > 3. damage prone (head crashes, bad sectors as they get older > etc). Tapes do not last as long. And tape cartdridges are often as expensive as entire hard drives! > 4. even in redundant environments, the potential for dataloss > is very high. No higher than for tape! > 5. it's *very difficult* and *very expensive* to recover data > from a damaged hard drive. The MTBF of hard drives is so much longer that they're a net win. Just IMHO, of course. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 9:47:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A771437B405 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D76CBDDE; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09899; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:47:00 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g35HlEM41324; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> <3CAD3A14.3C5ED003@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Apr 2002 09:47:14 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3CAD3A14.3C5ED003@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <76it762g2l.t76@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > > There are no such rights FOR SOFTWARE in the 17USC106 "Exclusive > > rights..." list and I've read quite a bit on the subject and have never > > seen anyone show any evidence for such rights for software. The FSF, > > for instance, is clear to note that the GPL doesn't cover "use". The > > BSDL's mention of "use" is moot, AFAIK. > > No. The GPL incorrectly uses the word "use" when they mean > "utilize". Well, the reason I used "use" instead of 17USC117's "utilize", is because the two terms should almost always be expected to mean the same thing to readers, even if "utilize" CAN have have a slightly narrower meaning to the writer. In the case of 117, the narrower sense doesn't even make sense; the section is clearly talking about the programs's normal, intended use, at least (whether or not you try to make something of it's use of "copy or adaptation"). Furthermore, 117 is only about authorizing that copying or adaptation always necessary to use software. This use (and utilization :) of a copyrighted work requires no license whatsoever because there is no such exclusive right in usage. People need no license to read a book or to level a wobbly table with one. If you think there is such a right, please show it to me. The GPL actually doesn't even use "use" in this context. It says: Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, It's only claiming to license copyrights and nothing else, like running the software, which many too-broadly refer to as "use". I expect you to infer what I mean by it from the context of this thread which has had nothing to do with copying, distribution, and modification -- copyrights. It has been about the legal risks of allowing people to run software which they may legally do without need of license. Even the die-hard GPL advocates I've discussed this with admit that GPL software may be run without license; they're even quite proud of the fact. I won't take the time to address your other points today. Please let me know if you'd like me to do it this weekend. We've both probably stopped learning from it and there's no evidence others are either. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 9:52:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from glow.binity.net (glow.binity.net [213.84.201.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5459E37B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:52:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from vscan (glow.dt1.binity.net [172.23.18.1]) by glow.binity.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB67455C4 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:52:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from there (silver.dt1.binity.net [172.23.3.20]) by glow.binity.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A3F054AE for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:52:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Walter Hop Message-Id: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [ot] Other x86 OS's to play around with? Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:52:37 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by glow.binity.net (amavis-perl-11-sky2) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I've some spare Intel hardware around and I'd like to try out some operating systems I've never used, for no particular purpose at all. So far I've tried Solaris/x86, and although it was a horrible experience I still have faith. I'd be interested in anything that isn't directly BSDish or Linuxish... any ideas? thanks, walter -- Walter Hop | +31 6 24290808 | PGP keyid 0x84813998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 9:54:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5062837B428 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35HrQV54682; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:53:25 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: backup solutions In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405084626.00b8e360@nospam.lariat.org> Message-ID: <20020405092135.A96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:08 PM 4/4/2002, f.johan.beisser wrote: > > >my own preference is tape. > > > >tape.. > > > > 1. tape transfers between machines, and usually OSs fairly well. > > I've found that tape drives often do not read tapes written on other > drives reliably. The electrical, rather than mechanical, interface of > a hard drive eliminates that problem. this is a matter of having good hardware, i believe. i've had very few problems with Sony AIT and AIT2 tapes. older DLT-IV tapes seem to be somewhat inconsistent in quality. Newer Fujifilm DLTs have been very good to me. as far as the electrical/mechanical interface goes, a harddrive still has head crashes, and as with anything that's getting cheaper (IDE, for example) the overall reliablity is going down. > > 2. tar(1) is usually very transferable between various flavours > > of UNIX. > > tar(1) can be used on disks as well as tapes. true, it can even be piped through ssh, if one wants. > > 3. tape, and tape drives, tend to be more reliable, > > I don't find this to be so. Tapes seem to become unreadable in less time, > in part due to "print-through" and in part due to the fact that we're all > living on a magnet (the Earth) and tape is not shielded from this and > other magnetic fields. (Disk drives have a protective metal case.) ok, this true, we live in a giant magnetic cage. this is also true: i've taken audio tapes that have sat in my garage for 10 years, popped them in to a tape deck, and listened to them. with no significant loss of quality. i've also taken 15 year old DLT tapes, that've been stored inside of a datacenter, and had no problems getting the data off of them. i've had a 10 year old hard drive that i can't recover anything from, due to the lack of an interface for it. media aging is an issue aswell (remember a couple months ago, about that laserdisk in england?), how can you gurantee that in 10 years, you'll be able to recover your data from that media? > >and even if > > one part of them is damaged, you can usually recover data > > with little effort. > > Hard drives have the same property. And damage is less likely because > they're fully enclosed. what about the electronics on the "underside", where the controller is? > >hard disks.. > > > > 1. difficult to transfer between OSs. > > If you're worried about this, use the Microsoft FAT format, which > virtually everything can read. i think just about anything i'm likely to use can read that format. i still wouldn't trust it for backups. > > 2. difficult to transfer between machines > > If removing the cover and inserting two cables is an issue, try > the many readily available "quick swap" mounts used in RAID > systms. this is still more effort than taking a tape to a drive, and slotting it. > > 3. damage prone (head crashes, bad sectors as they get older > > etc). > > Tapes do not last as long. And tape cartdridges are often as expensive > as entire hard drives! they don't? in my experience, they last MUCH longer than hard drives. years longer. as far as cost goes, yes, usually the cost of equivelent tape storage (let's say 50gb, uncompressed) will be more than the hard drive. is this the fault of tape manufacturers? and yes, tape storage media has not kept up with hard disks in capacity and cost, and the "average" computer sold these days has a 20gb hard drive. more than most tape. > > 4. even in redundant environments, the potential for dataloss > > is very high. > > No higher than for tape! no, i think higher than tape. for example: in a one month period, i'd had 3 drives in a RAID array go bad. that is drive 1 in the RAID5, and both the replacement drives. in comparison: i've had 3 tapes go bad due to age and harsh environments in the last 6 years. those tapes were already marked as being "funky", so it wasn't a nasty suprise. > > 5. it's *very difficult* and *very expensive* to recover data > > from a damaged hard drive. > > The MTBF of hard drives is so much longer that they're a net win. my experience, with large systems and small, is that the Mean Time Between Failures is much lower on older tapes, than older drives. on newer drives, i've had quite a few fail right out of the box, and have yet to see a failure of any tape "just out of the box" (in the last year). of course, the usage of a tape vs an HD is also an issue here. while a drive may be designed for 300,000 hours, it's far more likely to be used for all that time, and under constant use. my average tape has a lifecycle of 60 read/writes, well below the MTBF for just the tape (not the drive). most tape drives are designed with 200,000 to 400,000 hours, and don't expect to be put under 100% usage. > Just IMHO, of course. we'll agree to disagree ;) -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 10: 3:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9F937B47B for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35I2xc54747; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:02:59 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Walter Hop Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] Other x86 OS's to play around with? In-Reply-To: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> Message-ID: <20020405095349.I96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Walter Hop wrote: > I've some spare Intel hardware around and I'd like to try out some > operating systems I've never used, for no particular purpose at all. > So far I've tried Solaris/x86, and although it was a horrible experience I > still have faith. I'd be interested in anything that isn't directly BSDish > or Linuxish... any ideas? eros OS: http://www.eros-os.org BeOS: http://www.be.com AtheOS: http://www.atheos.cx QNX: http://www.qnx.com Plan-9: http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/ Inferno: http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/ here's a pretty decent list of OSs, not sure how many are x86 though: http://www.d1.dion.ne.jp/~r_high/GeekOS/indexos.html -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 10: 9:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8001637B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0711.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.201] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tY9L-0002E2-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:09:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3CADE83A.A6941BF5@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 10:08:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> <3CAD3A14.3C5ED003@mindspring.com> <76it762g2l.t76@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > > > > There are no such rights FOR SOFTWARE in the 17USC106 "Exclusive > > > rights..." list and I've read quite a bit on the subject and have never > > > seen anyone show any evidence for such rights for software. The FSF, > > > for instance, is clear to note that the GPL doesn't cover "use". The > > > BSDL's mention of "use" is moot, AFAIK. > > > > No. The GPL incorrectly uses the word "use" when they mean > > "utilize". > > Well, the reason I used "use" instead of 17USC117's "utilize", is > because the two terms should almost always be expected to mean the same > thing to readers, even if "utilize" CAN have have a slightly narrower > meaning to the writer. Heh. Readers are wrong, lawyers are right. > In the case of 117, the narrower sense doesn't even make sense; > the section is clearly talking about the programs's > normal, intended use, at least (whether or not you try to make something > of it's use of "copy or adaptation"). Furthermore, 117 is only about > authorizing that copying or adaptation always necessary to use software. This is somewhat my point. You keep pointing at 117, as if it is the correct thing to be looking at regarding licenses, when what I think you should be looking at is USC on commercial code, per changes of the DMCA. > This use (and utilization :) of a copyrighted work requires no license > whatsoever because there is no such exclusive right in usage. People > need no license to read a book or to level a wobbly table with one. > If you think there is such a right, please show it to me. People own books. You don't own the CDROM on which Microsoft Office or Windows arrives: Microsoft does. You only own a license to use. > The GPL actually doesn't even use "use" in this context. It says: > > Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > running the Program is not restricted, That's correct. The GPL fails to apply the word correctly, just like it fails to correctly apply the word "liberty", when the meaning it really intends is "libre", or, applied to software, not "free software", but "liberated software". The problem that exact word usage poses in the GPL case is that there are negative connotations that they want to avoid, while obtaining the positive (in their opinion) denotations, without actually using the correct words. So instead, they use a word which means "gratis" instead of "libre", and then attempt to redefine it so that it means "libre". > It's only claiming to license copyrights and nothing else, like running > the software, which many too-broadly refer to as "use". I expect you > to infer what I mean by it from the context of this thread which has had > nothing to do with copying, distribution, and modification -- copyrights. > It has been about the legal risks of allowing people to run software > which they may legally do without need of license. Even the die-hard > GPL advocates I've discussed this with admit that GPL software may be > run without license; they're even quite proud of the fact. Actually, the issue I was attempting to address when I made the statement that there should be a statuatory "hold harmless" for for software placed in the public domain, is that of the legal risks *to the authors* of the software. You're trying to turn this around to apply to the users, and, in this case, the users are irrelelvent to the interpretation (they're not irrelevent to the situation: it is they who pose the risk to the authors). > I won't take the time to address your other points today. Please let me > know if you'd like me to do it this weekend. We've both probably > stopped learning from it and there's no evidence others are either. If we could drag this back on track, to the risk to the authors, then it would be a more useful discussion in the context of this list. If you want to discuss the risks to the users, well, there is always "Risks Digest". 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 10:16:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE4B37B416 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10308; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:15:50 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405110535.0308a630@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:15:40 -0700 To: "f.johan.beisser" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: backup solutions Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020405092135.A96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405084626.00b8e360@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:53 AM 4/5/2002, f.johan.beisser wrote: >as far as the electrical/mechanical interface goes, a harddrive still has >head crashes, Very rarely. And it's not as if you're taking the media out, as you do with tape. >ok, this true, we live in a giant magnetic cage. > >this is also true: i've taken audio tapes that have sat in my garage for >10 years, popped them in to a tape deck, and listened to them. with no >significant loss of quality. The tolerances on these are, of course, much looser. Tape drive vendors, who are locked in fierce competition and must keep up with increases in hard disk sizes, almost always skate close to the edge of what the current technology can handle. And because restores from backup tapes are relatively rare and the tapes are overwritten regularly, they don't need to maintain the reliability levels and long-lasting data retention that hard drive manufacturers must. >i've had a 10 year old hard drive that i can't recover anything from, due >to the lack of an interface for it. I have WD1003 cards in my lab to this day. But if you're doing archival backup, you'll have bigger problems with tapes than with disks, as tapes MUST be refreshed regularly. >media aging is an issue aswell >(remember a couple months ago, about that laserdisk in england?), how can >you gurantee that in 10 years, you'll be able to recover your data from >that media? Tape ages more quickly than hard disk platters (which have a hard surface that's usually deposited or grown on). >> Hard drives have the same property. And damage is less likely because >> they're fully enclosed. > >what about the electronics on the "underside", where the controller is? I have 20-year-old PC boards that still run fine. >> If you're worried about this, use the Microsoft FAT format, which >> virtually everything can read. > >i think just about anything i'm likely to use can read that format. i >still wouldn't trust it for backups. We use PKZIP on MS-DOS FAT for archival backups. It'll be readable many decades from now. >> Tapes do not last as long. And tape cartdridges are often as expensive >> as entire hard drives! > >they don't? in my experience, they last MUCH longer than hard drives. >years longer. If you use tapes for daily backups, they wear out much faster. If you use them for archival backups, they are subject to flaking, swelling, and other nasty problems. >As far as cost goes, yes, usually the cost of equivelent tape storage >(let's say 50gb, uncompressed) will be more than the hard drive. is this >the fault of tape manufacturers? Yep. They give away the drive and make money on the media. Just like printer vendors. >no, i think higher than tape. for example: in a one month period, i'd had >3 drives in a RAID array go bad. that is drive 1 in the RAID5, and both >the replacement drives. Anecdotal. The MTBF of disks is much longer. >> The MTBF of hard drives is so much longer that they're a net win. > >my experience, with large systems and small, is that the Mean Time Between >Failures is much lower on older tapes, than older drives. on newer drives, >i've had quite a few fail right out of the box, and have yet to see a >failure of any tape "just out of the box" (in the last year). I've gotten many tapes with lots of defects -- some which are unwritable. Disk drives, especially after a surface analysis and initial burn-in, are much more reliable. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 10:25:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B2C37B41D for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g35IP4Z04023; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:25:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:25:04 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: backup solutions Message-ID: <20020405102504.A29398@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405084626.00b8e360@nospam.lariat.org> <20020405092135.A96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020405092135.A96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org>; from jan@caustic.org on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 09:53:25AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 09:53:25AM -0800, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Brett Glass wrote: >=20 > > At 10:08 PM 4/4/2002, f.johan.beisser wrote: > > > > >my own preference is tape. > > > > > >tape.. > > > > > > 1. tape transfers between machines, and usually OSs fairly wel= l. > > > > I've found that tape drives often do not read tapes written on other > > drives reliably. The electrical, rather than mechanical, interface of > > a hard drive eliminates that problem. >=20 > this is a matter of having good hardware, i believe. i've had very few > problems with Sony AIT and AIT2 tapes. older DLT-IV tapes seem to be > somewhat inconsistent in quality. Newer Fujifilm DLTs have been very good > to me. It's certaintly true that early helical scan products were crap in this department. It's probably best to assume that there's a significant chance that only a data recovery shop will be able to read a DDS1 tape if the drive dies and it was from the DDS1 era. That's not to say you can't transfer data with them, but since the road to failure generally starts with misaligned heads, tapes written at the end of a drives life are often bad. Having said that, modern helical scan devices are quite solid and my Sony DDS3 drive has survived much more time and use then the old HP DDS1s we used for backups in college. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8rev/XY6L6fI4GtQRAoGyAKDfibrBJrr4VndFT9if4NMIDl8kuQCfepuU uOLGdvzpJlDdSh1SEKnH7PU= =LUcl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 10:39: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (som-456.dhcp.umass.edu [128.119.137.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B50137B428 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g35Icv858464 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:38:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:38:57 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. Thanks. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 11:12: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4F837B416 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:12:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g35J9Tr75120; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:09:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <009f01c1dcd5$694f1620$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404130641.E2470@rain.macguire.net> <000d01c1dc28$d09542d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020405030823.GB553@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:09:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > The first section in a well written resume > is titled "Objective". That is highly debatable. It makes sense if the résumé is custom-written for a specific position, otherwise its utility and wisdom are questionable. Nowadays I usually don't state an objective, in part because I see no reason not to consider a wide range of positions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 13: 4:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23BF137B405 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:04:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g35L3ua05681 ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:03:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA64166 ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:03:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:03:56 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020405230356.A63981@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404130641.E2470@rain.macguire.net> <000d01c1dc28$d09542d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020405030823.GB553@hades.hell.gr> <009f01c1dcd5$694f1620$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <009f01c1dcd5$694f1620$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 09:09:29PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski said on Apr 5, 2002 at 21:09:29: > Giorgos writes: > > > The first section in a well written resume > > is titled "Objective". > > That is highly debatable. It makes sense if the résumé is custom-written > for a specific position, otherwise its utility and wisdom are questionable. > Nowadays I usually don't state an objective, in part because I see no reason > not to consider a wide range of positions. That's just you. Most people (in any field) have specific (though possibly diverse) interests, specific goals and therefore also specific preferences of employer. Anyway I though you said you "don't work for anybody". Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 13:19:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870AB37B404 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g35LJoa07275 ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:19:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA64723 ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:19:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:19:50 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu>; from gpav@som.umass.edu on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:38:57PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. Actually I think the distinction is probably one of Brett's and Terry's fantasies. They mean the same in ordinary English and I'll be surprised if there is a distinction in law (IANAL but nor are they). Merriam-Webster's definition of "utilize" is "to make use of : turn to practical use or account." I have never heard of any different definition. In the entry for "use" (verb), the possible fine distinction is made: "UTILIZE may suggest the discovery of a new, profitable, or practical use for something " -- but this is only an occasional suggestion of a fine shade of meaning, and even in this sentence "utilize" can readily be replaced with "use"; I'll believe there is a legal distinction when I'm pointed to an authoritative legal lexicon telling me of one. Just for fun, in modern French there is a verb "utiliser" which means the same, but no word which sounds similar to "use". A user (eg a computer user) is a "utilisateur". According to M-W, again, the English "utilise" comes from this, while the English "use" comes from the old English "us" which in turn is from old French. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 13:27:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A2C37B416 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0A9A85309; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:27:31 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 05 Apr 2002 23:27:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Just for fun, in modern French there is a verb "utiliser" which means > the same, but no word which sounds similar to "use". Wrong. http://www.francophonie.hachette-livre.fr/cgi-bin/sgmlex2?U.SCIP.UL0034300 DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 13:43:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD60837B416 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-62-147-140-218.dial.proxad.net [62.147.140.218]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E9C5F97C for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:43:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 825 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Apr 2002 21:43:11 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:43:11 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020405214311.GA798@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Apr 5, 2002 at 23:27:30: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > Just for fun, in modern French there is a verb "utiliser" which means > > the same, but no word which sounds similar to "use". > > Wrong. > > http://www.francophonie.hachette-livre.fr/cgi-bin/sgmlex2?U.SCIP.UL0034300 Sorry, my bad. (Where's my dictionary when I need it?) Come to think of it I've heard people say "usage" though I don't think the verb "user" is used very commonly. In English it's more common to say "use" when it's not an unusual use, as in the end of the previous sentence; "utilize" would sound awkward there but would still be correct. I think if one translated that sentence into French, one would normally say "utilisé" for "used" -- correct me if I'm wrong. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 14: 2:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C8537B416 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g35M27r75550; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:02:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00ad01c1dced$87a7de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: References: <1AFD7E6F-47EB-11D6-BF98-003065D5E9A4@infospace.com> <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404130641.E2470@rain.macguire.net> <000d01c1dc28$d09542d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020405030823.GB553@hades.hell.gr> <009f01c1dcd5$694f1620$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020405230356.A63981@lpt.ens.fr> Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:02:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul writes: > That's just you. Whether or not to put an objective on a résumé has been a topic of considerable debate for many years among career counselors, and I know of no consensus in this domain. > Anyway I though you said you "don't > work for anybody". That is currently true, yes, and I don't have a current résumé, either. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 14:17: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0577D37B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-62-147-141-115.dial.proxad.net [62.147.141.115]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4DA17DC5 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:16:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1051 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Apr 2002 22:16:55 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:16:55 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix Message-ID: <20020405221655.GA1021@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020404113201.C2470@rain.macguire.net> <016a01c1dc13$cbbb1790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404121428.D2470@rain.macguire.net> <018e01c1dc1a$3b2eae60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020404130641.E2470@rain.macguire.net> <000d01c1dc28$d09542d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020405030823.GB553@hades.hell.gr> <009f01c1dcd5$694f1620$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20020405230356.A63981@lpt.ens.fr> <00ad01c1dced$87a7de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <00ad01c1dced$87a7de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski said on Apr 6, 2002 at 00:02:07: > Rahul writes: > > > That's just you. > > Whether or not to put an objective on a résumé has been a topic of > considerable debate for many years among career counselors, and I know of no > consensus in this domain. Strange. I'd have said, if you're picky about what you want to do, put an objective, and if you're not, don't put an objective. Most people I know (in any field) are picky, and the more expert they are, the pickier they are -- the stronger are their likes and dislikes. (Quite apart from the impression an employer would get from a waffling resume which went "I don't know what I want to do, I'll do whatever you want...") > > Anyway I though you said you "don't > > work for anybody". > > That is currently true, yes, and I don't have a current résumé, either. So when you said "Nowadays I usually don't state an objective" it's because you don't have a résumé either? Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 15:18:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6731137B41C for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0399.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.144] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tcyt-0005wN-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:18:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:18:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Pavelcak wrote: > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, but he never utilized the resulting binary". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 15:21:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 15C1B37B405 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 77825 invoked by uid 100); 5 Apr 2002 23:21:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15534.12688.189080.380549@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:21:52 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize In-Reply-To: <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com>, Terry Lambert typed: > Greg Pavelcak wrote: > > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > but he never utilized the resulting binary". And how is that different from "Bob utilized the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, but he never used the resulting binary". http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 15:23:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail16.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF8237B429 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8734 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2002 23:22:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 5 Apr 2002 23:22:43 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35NNTv33727; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:23:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 18:22:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Pavelcak Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Apr-2002 Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Pavelcak wrote: >> For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, >> but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > but he never utilized the resulting binary". "Bob utilized the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, but he never used the resulting binary." -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 15:31:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB3337B41B for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g35NVES6071620; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:31:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with UUCP id g35NVEhP071619; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:31:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g35NTcPL009020; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:29:38 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200204052329.g35NTcPL009020@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> ; from Terry Lambert "Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:18:30 -0800." Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 00:29:38 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Greg Pavelcak wrote: > > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > but he never utilized the resulting binary". "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, but he never used the resulting binary". No problemo. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 16: 8:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092FB37B405 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:08:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0399.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.144] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tdko-0007X3-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:08:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:08:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. > > Actually I think the distinction is probably one of Brett's and Terry's > fantasies. They mean the same in ordinary English and I'll be > surprised if there is a distinction in law (IANAL but nor are they). Your definitions ignore the fact that "use" can be a noun, an intransitive verb, or a transitive verb. The word "utilize" is *only* a transitive verb. The GPL "uses" (8-)) the word in its least common application, where the word "utilize" would serve better, and therfore attempts to muddy the waters regarding derivitive works (utilizing the code) vs. operation of the application (using the code). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 16:12:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E4DB37B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0399.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.144] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tdot-00051r-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:12:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAE3D60.47437503@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:12:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <20020405214311.GA798@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Sorry, my bad. (Where's my dictionary when I need it?) At least you still put two spaces after your priods, like God intentded. This, despite your other bad English habits. I haven't really noticed if you put the punctuation inside the ending quotation mark, or outside, or whether you use capitalization inside the second quoted section in a split phrase, or not. ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 16:31: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABCCC37B405 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16te6b-0001Fv-00; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 02:30:57 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g35NuT85050039 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 01:56:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g35NuTDQ050038 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 01:56:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:56:28 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Just for fun, in modern French there is a verb "utiliser" which means > > the same, but no word which sounds similar to "use". > > Wrong. Even better. You can blame it all on the French. :-) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 16:33:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F9237B404 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0399.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.144] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16te8l-0004cl-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:33:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAE422F.D3731169@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:32:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> <200204052329.g35NTcPL009020@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > Greg Pavelcak wrote: > > > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > > > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. > > > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > > but he never utilized the resulting binary". > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > but he never used the resulting binary". > > No problemo. Hence the ambiguity of the word "use". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 16:34:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from repulse.cnchost.com (repulse.concentric.net [207.155.248.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9597A37B41B for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by repulse.cnchost.com id TAA04478; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:34:34 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200204060034.TAA04478@repulse.cnchost.com> To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:38:57 EST." <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:34:34 -0800 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. Utilising Webster's Online dictionary one finds this use: {Utility}, {Usefulness}. Usefulness has an Anglo-Saxon prefix, utility is Latin; and hence the former is used chiefly of things in the concrete, while the latter is employed more in a general and abstract sense. Thus, we speak of the utility of an invention, and the usefulness of the thing invented; of the utility of an institution, and the usefulness of an individual. So beauty and utility (not usefulness) are brought into comparison. Still, the words are often used interchangeably. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 19:47: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail017.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail017.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA80237B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax4-127.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.147.127]) by mail017.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g363l2l07132 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:47:02 +1000 Message-ID: <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 13:49:11 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] Other x86 OS's to play around with? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Walter Hop wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've some spare Intel hardware around and I'd like to try out some > operating systems I've never used, for no particular purpose at all. > So far I've tried Solaris/x86, and although it was a horrible experience I > still have faith. I'd be interested in anything that isn't directly BSDish > or Linuxish... any ideas? I have that this company makes an OK OS, http://www.microsoft.com Apparently they have been having some problems with security, stability and performance. Hopefully though though these problems will be ironed out within a year or two. Check it out if you are into experimental operating systems. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 21: 2: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8164137B419 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id VAA16695 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:01:57 -0800 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda16693; Fri Apr 5 21:01:54 2002 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.11.6/8.9.1) id g3651nh79949 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(10.1.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdJ79945; Fri Apr 5 21:00:55 2002 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.11.6/8.9.1) id g3650sM84275 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:00:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdw84267; Fri Apr 5 21:00:14 2002 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group X-Sender: schubert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Baby(1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 21:00:14 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BABY(1) USER COMMANDS BABY(1) NAME BABY - create new process from two parent processes SYNOPSIS BABY [ -sex ] [ -name ] DESCRIPTION BABY is initiated when one parent process polls another server process through a socket connection (BSD) or through pipes in the System V implementation. BABY runs at a low priority for approximately 40 weeks then terminates with heavy system load. Most systems require constant monitoring when BABY reaches its final stages of execution. Older implementations of BABY required that the initiating process not be present at the time of completion. In these versions the initiating process is awakened and notified of the results upon completion. Modern versions allow both parent processes to be active during the final stages of BABY. OPTIONS -sex option indicating type of process created. -name process identification to be attached to the new process. RESULT Successful execution of the BABY(1) results in new process being created and named. Parent processes then typically broadcast messages to all other processes informing them of their new status in the system. BUGS The SLEEP command may not work on either parent processes for some time afterward, as new BABY processes constantly send interrupts which must be handled by one or more parent. BABY processes upon being created may frequently dump in /tmp requiring /tmp to be cleaned out frequently by one of the parent processes. SEE ALSO sleep(1) dump(8) cry(3) Regards, Phone: 250-387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: 250-387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team Email: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, CITS Ministry of Management Services Province of BC FreeBSD UNIX: cy@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 22:35:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB49C37B41E for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 22:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-11-62-147-117-135.dial.proxad.net [62.147.117.135]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276BF212 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 08:33:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1458 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 2002 06:33:49 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 08:33:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020406063348.GA1426@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <20020405214311.GA798@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE3D60.47437503@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CAE3D60.47437503@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 5, 2002 at 16:12:16: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Sorry, my bad. (Where's my dictionary when I need it?) > > At least you still put two spaces after your priods, like > God intentded. Except that I prefer to call them "full stops", like God intended. And I try to spel wrods corretcly, too. > This, despite your other bad English habits. Like what? > I haven't really noticed if you put the punctuation inside > the ending quotation mark, or outside, Endless debate on which is "correct" here; email (or monospaced text) tends to be more readable with punctuation outside quotes. > capitalization inside the second quoted section in a split > phrase, or not. I usually don't change quotes. :) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 22:46:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408AD37B6B2 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 22:45:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-11-62-147-117-135.dial.proxad.net [62.147.117.135]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18EB18F for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 08:45:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1567 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 2002 06:45:29 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 08:45:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020406064529.GB1426@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 5, 2002 at 16:08:02: > > Actually I think the distinction is probably one of Brett's and Terry's > > fantasies. They mean the same in ordinary English and I'll be > > surprised if there is a distinction in law (IANAL but nor are they). > > Your definitions ignore the fact that "use" can be a noun, an > intransitive verb, or a transitive verb. > > The word "utilize" is *only* a transitive verb. > > The GPL "uses" (8-)) the word in its least common application, > where the word "utilize" would serve better, and therfore > attempts to muddy the waters regarding derivitive works > (utilizing the code) vs. operation of the application (using > the code). Excuse me. It looks like a transitive verb in both of these phrases, to me, at least; and I find it quite legitimate to write that derivative works "use" the code while operation of the application "utilizes" the code. In fact, if I follow Merriam-Webster's suggestions, I'd prefer to "use" the code in a run-of-the-mill derivative work (embedding a GPL'd FFT routine in a program of my own) but "utilize" the code in a novel application (utilize an FFT to do fast multiplications of large integers). - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 23: 7:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1A237B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0345.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.90] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tkIF-0001K3-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 23:07:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAE9E85.BDEDB76C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 23:06:45 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> <20020406064529.GB1426@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > The GPL "uses" (8-)) the word in its least common application, > > where the word "utilize" would serve better, and therfore > > attempts to muddy the waters regarding derivitive works > > (utilizing the code) vs. operation of the application (using > > the code). > > Excuse me. It looks like a transitive verb in both of these phrases, > to me, at least; and I find it quite legitimate to write that > derivative works "use" the code while operation of the application > "utilizes" the code. > > In fact, if I follow Merriam-Webster's suggestions, I'd prefer to > "use" the code in a run-of-the-mill derivative work (embedding a GPL'd > FFT routine in a program of my own) but "utilize" the code in a novel > application (utilize an FFT to do fast multiplications of large > integers). I prefer OED. However... Let's say everything you say is correct. Do you agree that there is confusion in the GPL about whether or not derivative works constitute "use" or "utilization" of the code? I think there is, and I think this confusion is intentional. Surely, you must agree that the use of the word "free" is a redefinition, right? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 23: 9:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail020.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail020.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2391237B404 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:09:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax7-173.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.181.173]) by mail020.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g36799P20221 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 17:09:09 +1000 Message-ID: <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 17:13:44 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, It is commonly spouted in Linux forums that you take BSD licensed code and do what you want with it including putting into your GPL project under a GPL license. On looking closer at the "simplified" license I don't see anywhere that it says you can freely relicense code under another license. (http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html) Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met: 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. To paraphrase and make a nice English sentence, "redistributions and use in source [...] forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided" "redistributions of source code [...] retain the above copyright notice...". So where did the idea that you could use BSD licensed code without regard for (retaining) the license come from? Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 5 23:21:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558B237B405 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g367LDS6000452; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 08:21:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with UUCP id g367LDO1000451; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 08:21:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g367IGPL014519; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 08:18:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200204060718.g367IGPL014519@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAE422F.D3731169@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CAE422F.D3731169@mindspring.com> ; from Terry Lambert "Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:32:47 -0800." Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 08:18:16 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > > but he never used the resulting binary". > > > > No problemo. > > Hence the ambiguity of the word "use". What ambiguity? M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 0:34:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7EC37B400 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-11-62-147-120-145.dial.proxad.net [62.147.120.145]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C70AB3A4 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:34:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1954 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 2002 08:34:10 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:34:10 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020406083409.GB1901@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> <20020406064529.GB1426@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE9E85.BDEDB76C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CAE9E85.BDEDB76C@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 5, 2002 at 23:06:45: > > In fact, if I follow Merriam-Webster's suggestions, I'd prefer to > > "use" the code in a run-of-the-mill derivative work (embedding a GPL'd > > FFT routine in a program of my own) but "utilize" the code in a novel > > application (utilize an FFT to do fast multiplications of large > > integers). > > I prefer OED. So do I, but I didn't have it handy and it's not available online. > However... > > Let's say everything you say is correct. Do you agree that > there is confusion in the GPL about whether or not derivative > works constitute "use" or "utilization" of the code? No, because "use" and "utilization" sound synonymous to me. The point is, is it use (or utilization) of the source code itself as part of another program (such as a modified version of gcc), or use (or utilization) of the program for its own purposes (producing a binary with gcc)? I think the GPL is pretty clear that it only applies to re-use of the source code, and that (for example) a binary produced by gcc is not covered by the GPL. > I think there is, and I think this confusion is intentional. Well, you've presumably talked to lawyers, and Stallman has talked to lawyers, and the FSF employs lawyers, so whether there is confusion or not may be resolved when it gets to court. But in his interpretations of the GPL in interviews, Stallman is quite clear about what he intends; linking, or mixing, of source code is bundled by the GPL, but "mere aggregation" or bundling -- say, on a CDROM -- is not, and binaries produced by GPL'd tools are not. > Surely, you must agree that the use of the word "free" is a > redefinition, right? No, but I agree it's ambiguous, and misleading, and probably deliberately so. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 0:36:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A75937B404 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax4-154.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.147.154]) by mail022.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g368a6v01544 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 18:36:06 +1000 Message-ID: <3CAEB489.9F8BCCAB@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 18:40:41 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org iiieeeee!!! That was supposed to be a new thread, sorry. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 0:45:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F80437B416 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-9-62-147-162-148.dial.proxad.net [62.147.162.148]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7810C5F8A7 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:45:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 2056 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 2002 08:45:22 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:45:22 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020406084522.GC1901@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> <20020406064529.GB1426@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE9E85.BDEDB76C@mindspring.com> <20020406083409.GB1901@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020406083409.GB1901@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on Apr 6, 2002 at 10:34:09: > Well, you've presumably talked to lawyers, and Stallman has talked to > lawyers, and the FSF employs lawyers, so whether there is confusion or > not may be resolved when it gets to court. But in his interpretations > of the GPL in interviews, Stallman is quite clear about what he > intends; linking, or mixing, of source code is bundled by the GPL, but ^^^^^^^ /bundled/covered Sorry R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 0:51:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46DFB37B405 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g368pBa70067 ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:51:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA90149 ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:51:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:51:11 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ian Pulsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? Message-ID: <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au>; from ianjp@optusnet.com.au on Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:13:44PM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ian Pulsford said on Apr 6, 2002 at 17:13:44: > To paraphrase and make a nice English sentence, "redistributions and use > in source [...] forms, with or without modification, are permitted > provided" "redistributions of source code [...] retain the above > copyright notice...". Yes. > So where did the idea that you could use BSD licensed code without > regard for (retaining) the license come from? (a) Copyright notice != license. Yes, you must retain the notice. It doesn't say anything about how you may license the code to third parties. (b) You are not compelled to redistribute the source code. (If you were, it would be a "viral" license like the GPL.) Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:17:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68EB37B41A for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16toC1-0002eF-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:17:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:16:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Pulsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ian Pulsford wrote: > It is commonly spouted in Linux forums that you take BSD licensed code > and do what you want with it including putting into your GPL project > under a GPL license. On looking closer at the "simplified" license I > don't see anywhere that it says you can freely relicense code under > another license. > (http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html) [ ... ] > So where did the idea that you could use BSD licensed code without > regard for (retaining) the license come from? RMS claims "compatability" for certain licenses. That is, that you can stick your license on top of the code, *leaving the previous license intact*, and that's OK. I think you would have to do what USL does, and state that portions were still under the old license, but that the derivative work as a whole was under the GPL. One of the countersuit claims in the USL vs. UCB lawsuit was that USL had taken UCB licensed code, and failed to comply with the terms of the license (about 60% of SVR4 was derived, ione way or another, from UCB licensed code, at the time). Because of this, it's likely that the relicensing is legal if the notice is retained intact, but retaining the notice intact grants certain rights. So it's not clear if this meets the "must be licensed as a whole under the GPL" requirement of the GPL, or not. The GPL specifically excepts aggregation, so it can't be talking about an aggregate license when it talks about licensing the work as a whole under the GPL. As usual with these matters, it won't be decided one way or another until someone takes someone to court over the code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:20:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FA937B404 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16toFX-0004Pd-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:20:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAED9E5.94C7AB5D@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:20:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAE422F.D3731169@mindspring.com> <200204060718.g367IGPL014519@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > > > but he never used the resulting binary". > > > > > > No problemo. > > > > Hence the ambiguity of the word "use". > > What ambiguity? Read section 3 paragraphs 6 and 7 of the GPL. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:24: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E688737B41A for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16toIZ-0005vY-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:23:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAEDAA1.A1BF2BF2@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:23:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAE422F.D3731169@mindspring.com> <200204060718.g367IGPL014519@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > > > but he never used the resulting binary". > > > > > > No problemo. > > > > Hence the ambiguity of the word "use". > > What ambiguity? To elaborate... When someone tells me I can "utilize" source code, I take it to mean that I'm permited to "utilize it in the preparation of derivative works". When they tell me I can do that without restriction, then I take that to mean "without incurring the restriction that a derivative work must be licensed under the same terms". Perhaps they honestly believe the GPL is not itself a restriction... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:31:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5F837B405 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g36BVAS6002131; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:31:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with UUCP id g36BVAng002130; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:31:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g36BSMPL036417; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:28:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200204061128.g36BSMPL036417@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAED9E5.94C7AB5D@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CAED9E5.94C7AB5D@mindspring.com> ; from Terry Lambert "Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:20:05 -0800." Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 12:28:21 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Mark Murray wrote: > > > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > > > > but he never used the resulting binary". > > > > > > > > No problemo. > > > > > > Hence the ambiguity of the word "use". > > > > What ambiguity? > > Read section 3 paragraphs 6 and 7 of the GPL. No ambiguity. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:32:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 302D937B405 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:32:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16toQn-0002Rb-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:32:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAEDC9E.E4A5C02B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:31:42 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> <20020406064529.GB1426@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE9E85.BDEDB76C@mindspring.com> <20020406083409.GB1901@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > No, because "use" and "utilization" sound synonymous to me. The point > is, is it use (or utilization) of the source code itself as part of > another program (such as a modified version of gcc), or use (or > utilization) of the program for its own purposes (producing a binary > with gcc)? I think the GPL is pretty clear that it only applies to > re-use of the source code, and that (for example) a binary produced by > gcc is not covered by the GPL. OK. Say I agree with your definition, and "use is use". That means that if I'm permitted to "use" the binary, as in, I can contact a web services platform running the binary, and for which I am never in physical possession of the binary, then the same restrictions for that "use" apply to my "use" of the source code to prepare derivative works, which I then provide only in binary form. Right? There's an implicit contradiction here. In one case, I *use* the resulting binary, and in the other case, I *use* the source code. Where is this distinction between which I am "using" in the license? It's hidden in verbiage that implys that "use is use", when, in fact, for a programmer, "use is not use". I can "use" the code, but I can't "utilize" the code -- "put to use" the code. > > I think there is, and I think this confusion is intentional. > > Well, you've presumably talked to lawyers, and Stallman has talked to > lawyers, and the FSF employs lawyers, so whether there is confusion or > not may be resolved when it gets to court. But in his interpretations > of the GPL in interviews, Stallman is quite clear about what he > intends; linking, or mixing, of source code is bundled by the GPL, but > "mere aggregation" or bundling -- say, on a CDROM -- is not, and > binaries produced by GPL'd tools are not. The problem is that many people do not read/view/listen-to each and every interview Stallman gives; their only take on the code is their exposure to the license itself, which is intentionally unclearly worded in order to cause people to get one thing when they think they are getting another. > > Surely, you must agree that the use of the word "free" is a > > redefinition, right? > > No, but I agree it's ambiguous, and misleading, and probably > deliberately so. Ah. There. Thank you. We agree to the deliberately misleading use of language in the license, even if you think it's limited to "free" in "libre" vs. "gratis" ("free" implies "gratis"; the correct Englis word for "libre" is "liberated"). So our only argument is the extent of the intent to mislead. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:36:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A15937B416 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g36BadS6002175; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:36:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with UUCP id g36Bad4A002174; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:36:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g36BXvPL036483; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:33:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200204061133.g36BXvPL036483@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: YA "GNU Sucks" thread (Was: Re: Use/Utilize) References: <3CAEDAA1.A1BF2BF2@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CAEDAA1.A1BF2BF2@mindspring.com> ; from Terry Lambert "Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:23:13 -0800." Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 12:33:57 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > When someone tells me I can "utilize" source code, I take it to > mean that I'm permited to "utilize it in the preparation of > derivative works". > > When they tell me I can do that without restriction, then > I take that to mean "without incurring the restriction that > a derivative work must be licensed under the same terms". > > Perhaps they honestly believe the GPL is not itself a > restriction... This has nothing to do with the original subject:, and is YA incantation if that @#$%ing GNU argument. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:37:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BCA37B41B for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16toVm-00055S-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:37:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:36:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Ian Pulsford said on Apr 6, 2002 at 17:13:44: > > To paraphrase and make a nice English sentence, "redistributions and use > > in source [...] forms, with or without modification, are permitted > > provided" "redistributions of source code [...] retain the above > > copyright notice...". > > Yes. > > > So where did the idea that you could use BSD licensed code without > > regard for (retaining) the license come from? > > (a) Copyright notice != license. Yes, you must retain the notice. > It doesn't say anything about how you may license the code to > third parties. "This notice" is inclusive. You can't delete lines out of the middle of it, and claim continued compliance. This means you must leave the license terms intact. > (b) You are not compelled to redistribute the source code. (If you > were, it would be a "viral" license like the GPL.) No, but you are required to duplicate the notice in accompanying documentation. Whether this grants people the right to distribute the binaries of the code you distribute is questionable. If you have not modified the sources to containt your own intellectual property, it probably means that they *can* distribute the binaries that don't contain proprietary code. Practically, sorting out which code is distributable or not is an all but impossible task (and you might as well just grab the original sources and compile them yourself, anyway, and avoid the risk and the sorting hassle). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:40:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E4837B417 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16toYl-0006gp-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:40:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAEDE8A.74681411@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:39:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAED9E5.94C7AB5D@mindspring.com> <200204061128.g36BSMPL036417@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > > > Hence the ambiguity of the word "use". > > > > > > What ambiguity? > > > > Read section 3 paragraphs 6 and 7 of the GPL. > > No ambiguity. Feel free to base a business on that belief. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:45:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B47E37B416 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-62-147-140-160.dial.proxad.net [62.147.140.160]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941C41EB for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:45:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 2631 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 2002 11:45:05 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:45:05 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? Message-ID: <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > (a) Copyright notice != license. Yes, you must retain the notice. > > It doesn't say anything about how you may license the code to > > third parties. > > "This notice" is inclusive. You can't delete lines out of > the middle of it, and claim continued compliance. This means > you must leave the license terms intact. So if Microsoft used the BSD implementation of ftp, they must give it to you under the BSD license? > > (b) You are not compelled to redistribute the source code. (If you > > were, it would be a "viral" license like the GPL.) > > No, but you are required to duplicate the notice in accompanying > documentation. > > Whether this grants people the right to distribute the binaries > of the code you distribute is questionable. Again, IANAL, but you seem to be questioning the most fundamental assumptions people make about BSD licensing. (Is it questionable that an embedded systems developer can distribute devices containing FreeBSD binaries without supplying the source code?) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:47: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BE337B416 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16toes-0002AO-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:47:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:46:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: YA "GNU Sucks" thread (Was: Re: Use/Utilize) References: <3CAEDAA1.A1BF2BF2@mindspring.com> <200204061133.g36BXvPL036483@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > When someone tells me I can "utilize" source code, I take it to > > mean that I'm permited to "utilize it in the preparation of > > derivative works". > > > > When they tell me I can do that without restriction, then > > I take that to mean "without incurring the restriction that > > a derivative work must be licensed under the same terms". > > > > Perhaps they honestly believe the GPL is not itself a > > restriction... > > This has nothing to do with the original subject:, and is YA > incantation if that @#$%ing GNU argument. Respectfully, I disagree. I'm not arguing that no one should use the GPL, I'm arguing that there's an ambiguity that would require research to find. If they distinguished "use" and "utilization" of the code, then it would be much clearer, IMO. Maybe it's just because I'm a native English speaker, and most of the people who argue that "use" and "utilize" are "the same" are not... if they're synonyms to the rest of the world, then I think that it needs to excplicitly and seperately identify which "use" is being talked about where. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 3:50:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F2637B41E for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 03:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-62-147-140-160.dial.proxad.net [62.147.140.160]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221ECAAFEE for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:50:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 2662 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 2002 11:50:21 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:50:21 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020406115021.GB2576@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> <20020406064529.GB1426@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE9E85.BDEDB76C@mindspring.com> <20020406083409.GB1901@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDC9E.E4A5C02B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CAEDC9E.E4A5C02B@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 6, 2002 at 03:31:42: > OK. Say I agree with your definition, and "use is use". > > That means that if I'm permitted to "use" the binary, as in, > I can contact a web services platform running the binary, > and for which I am never in physical possession of the binary, > then the same restrictions for that "use" apply to my "use" > of the source code to prepare derivative works, which I then > provide only in binary form. Right? This is, I believe, a grey area -- when the GPL v2 was written this situation didn't exist. Stallman was rumoured to be addressing the question in a GPL v3 but I don't know what became of it. I very much doubt the ambiguity here is deliberate. > > > Surely, you must agree that the use of the word "free" is a > > > redefinition, right? > > > > No, but I agree it's ambiguous, and misleading, and probably > > deliberately so. > > Ah. There. Thank you. We agree to the deliberately > misleading use of language in the license, even if you > think it's limited to "free" in "libre" vs. "gratis" ("free" > implies "gratis"; the correct Englis word for "libre" is > "liberated"). No; I believe that the term "free software" was chosen more for "resonance" reasons than for accuracy and easy comprehension; but the GPL, and the GNU manifesto, and all Stallman's writings, explain in pitiless detail what he really means. As far as the GPL is concerned there is no ambiguity, because it defines the meaning carefully. (Which, again, is a subset of the dictionary meaning, not a redefinition.) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 4: 0:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491F137B404 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 04:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D2615530A; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:00:28 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Ian Pulsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Apr 2002 14:00:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ian Pulsford writes: > It is commonly spouted in Linux forums that you take BSD licensed code > and do what you want with it including putting into your GPL project > under a GPL license. On looking closer at the "simplified" license I > don't see anywhere that it says you can freely relicense code under > another license. Software under the two- or three-clause BSD license can be relicensed under the GPL provided the copyright is maintained. Software under the four-clause BSD license can't because the advertising clause conflicts with the GPL's "no additional restrictions" clause. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 4: 6:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A305C37B405 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 04:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g36C69S6002408; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:06:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with UUCP id g36C69XG002407; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:06:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g36C2aPL036777; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:02:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> ; from Terry Lambert "Sat, 06 Apr 2002 03:46:14 -0800." Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 13:02:36 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If they distinguished "use" and "utilization" of the code, > then it would be much clearer, IMO. > > Maybe it's just because I'm a native English speaker, and > most of the people who argue that "use" and "utilize" are > "the same" are not... if they're synonyms to the rest of > the world, then I think that it needs to excplicitly and > seperately identify which "use" is being talked about where. "I will use it" == "I will utilise it". "It has no use" == "It has no utility". "Use/use/use" and "utilize/utility/utilization" are exact synonyms with different conventional uses. BTW - I am a native English speaker too. My English is "Colonial English", very close to British English. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 4: 6:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C20F37B405 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 04:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16toxv-00053X-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 04:06:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 04:05:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > (a) Copyright notice != license. Yes, you must retain the notice. > > > It doesn't say anything about how you may license the code to > > > third parties. > > > > "This notice" is inclusive. You can't delete lines out of > > the middle of it, and claim continued compliance. This means > > you must leave the license terms intact. > > So if Microsoft used the BSD implementation of ftp, they must give it > to you under the BSD license? They must reproduce the license in their documentation, somewhere. Whether they have to let you copy the binary around has not really been determined by a court. I think if the code was unmodified (it's not), then the answer is probably "yes". This was the main reason the USL people stripped the BSD license notices off the files in SVR4, including the header files, which they then labelled as unpublished proprietary works (courts have since decided that labelling them that way doean't make them unpublished, unless their distribution was limited to a "select group"). > > > (b) You are not compelled to redistribute the source code. (If you > > > were, it would be a "viral" license like the GPL.) > > > > No, but you are required to duplicate the notice in accompanying > > documentation. > > > > Whether this grants people the right to distribute the binaries > > of the code you distribute is questionable. > > Again, IANAL, but you seem to be questioning the most fundamental > assumptions people make about BSD licensing. (Is it questionable that > an embedded systems developer can distribute devices containing > FreeBSD binaries without supplying the source code?) No. That' not questionable at all. You can't demand source code. The only thing that's questionable is whether or not they can prohibit redistribution of binaries that are made up *solely* of BSD code, under the terms permitting binary distribution in the license. IMO, if te binaries contain proprietary code, then the answer is "no", and if they don't, "who cares? They can recreate them by obtaining the sources from another location anyway". I think that a court would hold that such redistribution was not legal, on the basis of the work converting the source to binary, but it could go either way, really (by reproducing the notice, do you grant the same rights to the binary, when all they have is the binary? Is that an inclusive or exclusive "or"? 8-)). In general, you really don't care about anything but your intellectual property, anyway. If you worry about things which are not strategic, good: my company will beat up your company, because your company lacks focus on the important parts of its business, and is off in the weeds chasing UFOs. Distributing only binaries of pure BSD licensed code is a matter of practicality. People don't "withold source" to the unmodified BSD licensed part of the code because they are trying to treat it as proprietary, they simply don't publish it because it would be more expensive to do so, rather than less expensive or equally expensive. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 4:12: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from glow.binity.net (glow.binity.net [213.84.201.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22B637B41C for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 04:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from vscan (glow.dt1.binity.net [172.23.18.1]) by glow.binity.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E8555BC; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:11:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from there (silver.dt1.binity.net [172.23.3.20]) by glow.binity.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B79F5507; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:11:27 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" From: Walter Hop Message-Id: <200204061411.08288@silver.dt1.binity.net> To: "f.johan.beisser" Subject: Re: [ot] Other x86 OS's to play around with? Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:11:56 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405095349.I96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> In-Reply-To: <20020405095349.I96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by glow.binity.net (amavis-perl-11-sky2) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [in reply to f.johan.beisser, Friday 05 April 2002 20:02] > a pretty decent list of OSs Thanks! :) This week's picks: plan9 and QNX. -- Walter Hop | +31 6 24290808 | PGP keyid 0x84813998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 4:14:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B42D637B416 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 04:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tp54-0001Qx-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 04:14:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAEE65C.90939A84@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 04:13:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <20020405231950.B63981@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE3C62.4012DA04@mindspring.com> <20020406064529.GB1426@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAE9E85.BDEDB76C@mindspring.com> <20020406083409.GB1901@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDC9E.E4A5C02B@mindspring.com> <20020406115021.GB2576@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: [ ... web services example ... ] > This is, I believe, a grey area -- when the GPL v2 was written this > situation didn't exist. Stallman was rumoured to be addressing the > question in a GPL v3 but I don't know what became of it. I very > much doubt the ambiguity here is deliberate. Obviously, he wan't to now close the loophole, given that a reasonable interpretation of the cauge language would result in it coming down on the "wrong" side. > > Ah. There. Thank you. We agree to the deliberately > > misleading use of language in the license, even if you > > think it's limited to "free" in "libre" vs. "gratis" ("free" > > implies "gratis"; the correct Englis word for "libre" is > > "liberated"). > > No; I believe that the term "free software" was chosen more for > "resonance" reasons than for accuracy and easy comprehension; but the > GPL, and the GNU manifesto, and all Stallman's writings, explain in > pitiless detail what he really means. As far as the GPL is concerned > there is no ambiguity, because it defines the meaning carefully. > (Which, again, is a subset of the dictionary meaning, not a > redefinition.) And I believe it was chosen because the ambiguity serves the purpose it was intended to serve: that it's intentional. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 5:56:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail021.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail021.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBF337B417 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 05:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax4-194.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.147.194]) by mail021.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g36Dudi32701; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:56:39 +1000 Message-ID: <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:01:14 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > RMS claims "compatability" for certain licenses. That is, > that you can stick your license on top of the code, *leaving > the previous license intact*, and that's OK. Fortunately it is not up to Stallman what he can do with software under someone else's licence (unless that is a condition of the licence). My question is where does it say you can do that in the BSD licence(s)? Of course you can automatically use the code as it was intended, to compile, or extend it as long as the "copyright notice" is retained. Nowhere does it say that, automatically, you can put a new licence on top of that code. Remember when someone makes a piece of code it has no licence, you can't do anything with it until you have permissions from the author. > I think you would have to do what USL does, and state that > portions were still under the old license, but that the > derivative work as a whole was under the GPL. > > One of the countersuit claims in the USL vs. UCB lawsuit > was that USL had taken UCB licensed code, and failed to > comply with the terms of the license (about 60% of SVR4 > was derived, ione way or another, from UCB licensed code, > at the time). Are the BSD licences in use today the same as the licences used on UCB code in the 80's? > Because of this, it's likely that the relicensing is legal > if the notice is retained intact, but retaining the notice > intact grants certain rights. So it's not clear if this > meets the "must be licensed as a whole under the GPL" > requirement of the GPL, or not. The GPL specifically > excepts aggregation, so it can't be talking about an > aggregate license when it talks about licensing the work > as a whole under the GPL. Relicensing is illegal without the creator or owner or licence's "license". The owner has copyright and gives license for others to distribute or copy or whatever. The way I understood Stallman's idea of a "compatible licence" was one that didn't interfere (via restrictions) with a piece of source code being linked or otherwise compiled with GPLed stuff. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 5:56:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D76937B417 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 05:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax4-194.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.147.194]) by mail014.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g36Duig02740; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 23:56:45 +1000 Message-ID: <3CAEFFAF.5C31E634@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 00:01:19 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Software under the two- or three-clause BSD license can be relicensed > under the GPL provided the copyright is maintained. Software under > the four-clause BSD license can't because the advertising clause > conflicts with the GPL's "no additional restrictions" clause. License can only be granted by the copyright holder. The BSD licence I outlined (and the BSD licence with the "advertising clause") don't mention anywhere that license (ie. permission) is given to add extra licences. If license isn't given then you have to assume that is not part of the licence. If I buy a CD and nowhere is it mentioned that I am not allowed to copy and redistribute it, I don't automatically have a licence to do that. Note, this doesn't make the BSD licence any more strict in that you cannot incorporate it in your software, just that wholesale copying without retaining the licence is illegal. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 8:16:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E7437B400 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 08:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16tsrM-0004i1-00 (Debian); Sat, 06 Apr 2002 17:16:12 +0100 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 17:16:12 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CAEDC9E.E4A5C02B@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > That means that if I'm permitted to "use" the binary, as in, > I can contact a web services platform running the binary, > and for which I am never in physical possession of the binary, > then the same restrictions for that "use" apply to my "use" > of the source code to prepare derivative works, which I then > provide only in binary form. Right? Section 0 says: : Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not : covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of : running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program : is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the : Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). : Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. This is generally true for copyright law. Tony. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 9:15:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924C237B400 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F20BD4D; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10097; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:15:04 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g36HF8b60728; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:15:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAE422F.D3731169@mindspring.com> <200204060718.g367IGPL014519@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CAED9E5.94C7AB5D@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 06 Apr 2002 09:15:07 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3CAED9E5.94C7AB5D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Read section 3 paragraphs 6 and 7 of the GPL. I can't write much yet, but my GPL V.2's section 3 only has 6 paragraphs and I can't find "utilize" anywhere in the GPL and very few uses (or utilizations) of "use". In at least one place it lists the copyrights (including derivation) and lets you figure out which other uses (eg, running) that the GPL does not cover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 9:32:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3313F37B416 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9392BCF7; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:32:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13867; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:32:11 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g36HWJd60931; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:32:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> <3CAD3A14.3C5ED003@mindspring.com> <76it762g2l.t76@localhost.localdomain> <3CADE83A.A6941BF5@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 06 Apr 2002 09:32:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3CADE83A.A6941BF5@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <68sn6820nw.n68@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 55 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > In the case of 117, the narrower sense doesn't even make sense; > > the section is clearly talking about the programs's > > normal, intended use, at least (whether or not you try to make something > > of it's use of "copy or adaptation"). Furthermore, 117 is only about > > authorizing that copying or adaptation always necessary to use software. > > This is somewhat my point. You keep pointing at 117, as if > it is the correct thing to be looking at regarding licenses, > when what I think you should be looking at is USC on commercial > code, per changes of the DMCA. I point at sections; you point at huge documents. But that's less important. The important thing is that it seems clear to me that there are no licenses involved here FOR THE USE I'M DISCUSSING (running of a copy I own), so license law is unimportant. Do you claim that I can't obtain and own and run a copy of BSD or GPL software without entering into a license contract, specifically under the BSD or GPL, respectively? A yes or no would be nice. > > whatsoever because there is no such exclusive right in usage. People > > need no license to read a book or to level a wobbly table with one. > > If you think there is such a right, please show it to me. > > People own books. You don't own the CDROM on which Microsoft > Office or Windows arrives: Microsoft does. You only own a > license to use. That's because M$ has good lawyers. (I fear that the same has not been true for BSD and FSF.) You do not even own the copies of most M$ software. I absolutely own copies of FreeBSD and Linux and my run them even if I should loose my license on the copyrights in the software. I may not then publish copies or derivatives, but I may run the software. > You're trying to turn this around to apply to the users, and, > in this case, the users are irrelelvent to the interpretation > (they're not irrelevent to the situation: it is they who pose > the risk to the authors). No I'm not; I'm claiming that the producers/publishers/copyright_owners of PD and BSDL and GPL software share some same legal risks as to their liability to damage done by people who run their software without having accepted (or even seen) their license; and even if they saw the license and accepted it, there is no requirement of acceptance of the disclaimer for acceptance of the license. > If you want to discuss the risks to the users, well, there > is always "Risks Digest". 8-). I'll have to think more about that. The risk to users hadn't entered my mind except if they subsequently become licensors themselves. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 10:52:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378BD37B405 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA30411 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 13:53:08 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 12:50:41 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? In-Reply-To: <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:01 AM 4/6/2002, Ian Pulsford wrote: >Remember when someone makes a piece of code it has no >licence, you can't do anything with it until you have permissions from >the author. I thought that software licenses were meant to *restrict* your freedoms with someone's work, not *grant* them. In other words, if you create some great unlicensed code and leave a printout lying on the table at McDonald's, what law am I breaking by scooping up the printout and making billions with your creation? I thought this was exactly why most people guard as-yet-uncopyrighted works so fiercely. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 11:13:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD64E37B417 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 11:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-62-147-134-173.dial.proxad.net [62.147.134.173]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6A1AB38C for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:13:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 3243 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 2002 19:12:09 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:12:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? Message-ID: <20020406191209.GA3203@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 6, 2002 at 04:05:53: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > (a) Copyright notice != license. Yes, you must retain the notice. > > > > It doesn't say anything about how you may license the code to > > > > third parties. > > > > > > "This notice" is inclusive. You can't delete lines out of > > > the middle of it, and claim continued compliance. This means > > > you must leave the license terms intact. > > > > So if Microsoft used the BSD implementation of ftp, they must give it > > to you under the BSD license? > > They must reproduce the license in their documentation, > somewhere. > > Whether they have to let you copy the binary around has > not really been determined by a court. I think if the > code was unmodified (it's not), then the answer is probably > "yes". OK, I think the point is this. You got the BSD code under the BSD licence, which is the file /COPYRIGHT in FreeBSD. The sentence 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. must be interpreted to mean the entire file, up to and including the disclaimer in capital letters, should be included in redistribution, either as part of the source files or as part of the documentation. Effectively, you must ship the BSD licence with your project. If that statement is wrong, I'd like to know exactly why. Now, if you have to ship the BSD licence with your code: For your own protection, if you're Microsoft you must make it explicitly clear exactly what the BSD licence applies to -- it clearly applies to something you're shipping; and surely you can't say "this licence applies to some code in our ftp binary, but not to the binary as a whole, and if you want to know exactly what it applies to and thus take advantage of this licence, you have to go find the relevant pieces of source code for yourself; we won't help you." The cleanest solution, it seems to me, would be to ship the pristine BSD sources separately and make it clear, "*This* is what the BSD licence applies to." But nobody does that, and it would be inconvenient for embedded system developers in particular (it would negate one usual argument for using BSD rather than Linux there). I can't think of any other meaningful solutions; and I can't think of any argument for saying that you can ship modified binaries under a new licence, and not include the BSD licence in any form. As for re-licensing under the GPL -- you'd still be obliged to put the BSD licence in there, so it would really be dual-licensing, not re-licensing. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 11:17:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C7B37B41B for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 11:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 37AF15309; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:17:38 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Apr 2002 21:17:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton writes: > I thought that software licenses were meant to *restrict* your > freedoms with someone's work, not *grant* them. Wrong. Unless you are granted a license that says otherwise, all you can do with a copyrighted work is quote limited portions of it for instructional or illustrative purposes. > In other words, if you create some great unlicensed code and leave a > printout lying on the table at McDonald's, what law am I breaking by > scooping up the printout and making billions with your creation? I > thought this was exactly why most people guard as-yet-uncopyrighted > works so fiercely. There are no as-yet-uncopyrighted works. A work is copyrighted from the moment it is created until the copyright lapses or the copyright holder explicitly places the work in the public domain. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 11:21: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1A537B404 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 11:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g36JL1a23336 ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:21:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA13424 ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:21:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:21:01 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? Message-ID: <20020406212101.A13194@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:50:41PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton said on Apr 6, 2002 at 12:50:41: > In other words, if you create some great unlicensed code and leave a > printout lying on the table at McDonald's, what law am I breaking by > scooping up the printout and making billions with your creation? I thought > this was exactly why most people guard as-yet-uncopyrighted works so > fiercely. Copyright protection is automatic; the original author doesn't have to do anything special except prove his authorship. So you have no rights to that code unless he gives you some, via a licence. You can still use his *ideas* and make billions, ideas can't be copyrighted; they can be patented but that is not automatic. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 14:20:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AFC437B405 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tyYE-0001Ii-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:20:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF74A9.135485DA@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:20:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Pulsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ian Pulsford wrote: > > One of the countersuit claims in the USL vs. UCB lawsuit > > was that USL had taken UCB licensed code, and failed to > > comply with the terms of the license (about 60% of SVR4 > > was derived, ione way or another, from UCB licensed code, > > at the time). > > Are the BSD licences in use today the same as the licences used on UCB > code in the 80's? Yes and no. The "claim credit" clause has been removed (what Stallman calls "the advertising clause", but which doesn't actually trigger automatically, like he says, but only if you try to claim credit for the features or use of the software). Other than that, the license is the same. The "compatability" comes from the "no additional restrictions" collision in section 6 of the GPL. > Relicensing is illegal without the creator or owner or licence's > "license". The owner has copyright and gives license for others to > distribute or copy or whatever. The way I understood Stallman's idea of > a "compatible licence" was one that didn't interfere (via restrictions) > with a piece of source code being linked or otherwise compiled with > GPLed stuff. And thereby triggering the "must be GPL'ed" requirement of the license, without failing to meet the "no additional restrictions" requirement of the GPL. It has to do with him believing you can GPL the code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 14:39:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1092B37B416 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16type-0003jb-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:38:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF78E0.5EBD3351@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:38:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Pulsford Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEFFAF.5C31E634@optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ian Pulsford wrote: > License can only be granted by the copyright holder. The BSD licence I > outlined (and the BSD licence with the "advertising clause") don't > mention anywhere that license (ie. permission) is given to add extra > licences. If license isn't given then you have to assume that is not > part of the licence. If I buy a CD and nowhere is it mentioned that I > am not allowed to copy and redistribute it, I don't automatically have a > licence to do that. It depends on whether you own the CDROM media, or not, at least in the United States. The US has a doctorine called "first use", in which, if you buy something, and own it, then you can dictate what people can and can not do with it. This has been tested in courts many times, in video piracy, software piracy, and CD, record, and tape resale cases. Simply put, the doctorine permits you to copy the contents of media you own for your own use, as many times as you want, and you are even legally permitted to give away these copies (but it is illegal for you to sell them). This is why such incredible effort has gone into software licenses to indicate that you do not own the media, that what you have purchased is a license to use, and that the media belongs to the publishing software company. > Note, this doesn't make the BSD licence any more strict in that you > cannot incorporate it in your software, just that wholesale copying > without retaining the licence is illegal. Yes. Definitely. Given the licensing, its really silly to try and change it anyway, since it's as unrestricted as it can be without being in the public domain, and it's not in the public domain in most cases, simply because placing something in the public domain prevents the author from including a hold harmless and preventing the use of their name without permission. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 14:44:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A1037B419 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:44:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tytP-0007f6-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:42:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:42:18 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch wrote: > Section 0 says: > > : Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > : covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > : running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program > : is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the > : Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). > : Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. > > This is generally true for copyright law. So now everyone who writes code is expected to be well read in copyright? Some of us are, but most of us aren't... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 14:54: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pianosa.catch22.org (pianosa.catch22.org [64.81.48.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B6337B422 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by pianosa.catch22.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id F3C7A2FA; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:53:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:53:54 -0800 From: Danny Howard To: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Baby(1) Message-ID: <20020406145354.D17676@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com>; from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 09:00:14PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 09:00:14PM -0800, Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group wrote: > BABY is initiated when one parent process polls another server > process through a socket connection (BSD) or through pipes in the > System V implementation. BABY runs at a low priority for approximately > 40 weeks then terminates with heavy system load. Most systems require > constant monitoring when BABY reaches its final stages of execution. Man pages suck. Or, is it naming conventions. Baby terminates at forty weeks? More like it takes forty weeks to fork and finally begin consuming some serious resources. But, well, anyways ... -d To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 14:56:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F419C37B419 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tz6S-0005Nr-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:56:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF7CF2.A8A84EB4@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 14:55:46 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> <3CAD3A14.3C5ED003@mindspring.com> <76it762g2l.t76@localhost.localdomain> <3CADE83A.A6941BF5@mindspring.com> <68sn6820nw.n68@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Do you claim that I can't obtain and own and run a copy of BSD or GPL > software without entering into a license contract, specifically under > the BSD or GPL, respectively? A yes or no would be nice. This depends on the publisher. If the publisher retains ownership of the media, then no, you can't. > > People own books. You don't own the CDROM on which Microsoft > > Office or Windows arrives: Microsoft does. You only own a > > license to use. > > That's because M$ has good lawyers. (I fear that the same has not been > true for BSD and FSF.) You do not even own the copies of most M$ > software. I absolutely own copies of FreeBSD and Linux and my run them > even if I should loose my license on the copyrights in the software. I > may not then publish copies or derivatives, but I may run the software. Yes. It's amusing that the GPL attempts (in section 4) to revoke the license under certain conditions of non-compliance. This is similar to the UCB attempt to revoke the license in the ditribution of the Net/2 code, as part of the settlement with USL: such grants involving purchaser media ownership are non-revokable. UCSD had (moderately) smarter lawyers. The license to the UCSD P-code system *was* revokable, and, when they thought they might be able to get money out of it, they in fact revoked it (someone finally rewrote it and called it "JVM"). Apple was left as the only one standing, with a non-revokable license, since they had negotiated seperately for terms. So an ordered list of lawyers would place Apple's before UCSD's. 8-). > > You're trying to turn this around to apply to the users, and, > > in this case, the users are irrelelvent to the interpretation > > (they're not irrelevent to the situation: it is they who pose > > the risk to the authors). > > No I'm not; I'm claiming that the producers/publishers/copyright_owners > of PD and BSDL and GPL software share some same legal risks as to their > liability to damage done by people who run their software without having > accepted (or even seen) their license; and even if they saw the license > and accepted it, there is no requirement of acceptance of the disclaimer > for acceptance of the license. This is where new law comes into play. There is no requirement for explicit acceptance of license any longer. The little scrolling "I Accept" windows that Microsoft puts in their products are part their lawyers being smart (in case the DMCA is held to be unconstitutional) and part writing code that ends up being run in many jurisdictions. > > If you want to discuss the risks to the users, well, there > > is always "Risks Digest". 8-). > > I'll have to think more about that. The risk to users hadn't entered my > mind except if they subsequently become licensors themselves. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 15: 2:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B8937B41D for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g36N2CQ02464; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:02:12 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Terry Lambert Cc: Tony Finch , Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020406150212.B1027@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 02:42:18PM -0800 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Terry Lambert (tlambert2@mindspring.com) [020406 14:44]: > Tony Finch wrote: > > Section 0 says: > > > > : Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > > : covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > > : running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program > > : is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the > > : Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). > > : Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. > > > > This is generally true for copyright law. > > So now everyone who writes code is expected to be well read in > copyright? Some of us are, but most of us aren't... > > -- Terry This doesn't seem like an unreasonable burden to me. Anyone who drives a car is expected to be well read (or at least reasonably familiar with) laws governing vehicles and roads. Anyone who engages in investments is expected to be well read (or again, at least reasonably familiar with) laws governing investments. You'd probably be hard pressed to find a service provider, creator, or manufacturer who was unaware or unfamiliar with of the legal situation surrounding their activities. I've only heard of 1 case ever where someone was able to convince a judge that they were innocent by way of not knowing the law. That was in response to an obscure and undocumented statute, one even the court clerk could not locate in the lawbooks, which said he couldn't park a motorcycle in between car parking spots. =P -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 15: 8: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B61237B419 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tzHt-0001MA-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:08:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:07:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > At 08:01 AM 4/6/2002, Ian Pulsford wrote: > >Remember when someone makes a piece of code it has no > >licence, you can't do anything with it until you have permissions from > >the author. > > I thought that software licenses were meant to *restrict* your freedoms > with someone's work, not *grant* them. > > In other words, if you create some great unlicensed code and leave a > printout lying on the table at McDonald's, what law am I breaking by > scooping up the printout and making billions with your creation? I thought > this was exactly why most people guard as-yet-uncopyrighted works so fiercely. You are breaking Copyright law, in any nation which is signatory to the Berne Copyright Convention. Specifically, the Berne convention alters Copyright law to include an implicit Copyright on all unplubished works, without needing the notice to be explicitly affixed. See: http://www.wipo.org/about-ip/en/about_copyright.html#copyright_regulated http://www.wipo.org/treaties/ip/berne/index.html There's no such thing as an "as-yet-uncopyrighted work". This fact actually made it more dangerous for authors to place work in the public domain, since, as it has their copyright, whether they want it or not, it becomes their responsibility. What people are normally protecting by not leaving papers at McDonalds are trade secrets and proprietary business information (product direction, etc.). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 15:18:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6460837B41B for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tzRO-0002cf-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:17:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF8204.5E93CE38@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:17:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> <20020406191209.GA3203@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Now, if you have to ship the BSD licence with your code: > For your own protection, if you're Microsoft you must make it > explicitly clear exactly what the BSD licence applies to -- it clearly > applies to something you're shipping; and surely you can't say "this > licence applies to some code in our ftp binary, but not to the binary > as a whole, and if you want to know exactly what it applies to and > thus take advantage of this licence, you have to go find the relevant > pieces of source code for yourself; we won't help you." Sure they can say that. Why couldn't they? > The cleanest solution, it seems to me, would be to ship the pristine > BSD sources separately and make it clear, "*This* is what the BSD > licence applies to." But nobody does that, and it would be > inconvenient for embedded system developers in particular (it would > negate one usual argument for using BSD rather than Linux there). I > can't think of any other meaningful solutions; and I can't think of > any argument for saying that you can ship modified binaries under a > new licence, and not include the BSD licence in any form. You have to include the BSD license. The difference it that the BSD license doesn't grant unnatural rights to the eventual recipieints for derivative works: it applies only to the code that is BSD licensed, and not any code you add to it. > As for re-licensing under the GPL -- you'd still be obliged to put the > BSD licence in there, so it would really be dual-licensing, not > re-licensing. Not quite. A dual license can only work if you are permitted to drop one ("either under the terms of A _or_ under the terms of _B_"). You can never drop the BSD license terms from the code, without an assignment of rights, or the permission of the authors. And the GPL requirement is that the code be licensed under the GPL. I think the severability, if you included the BSL license there, fails to comply with the GPL's requirement that the code be licensed under the GPL. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 15:31:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329C037B405 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tzed-0000Df-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:31:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF853B.CBF82341@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:31:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <20020406212101.A13194@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Chip Morton said on Apr 6, 2002 at 12:50:41: > > In other words, if you create some great unlicensed code and leave a > > printout lying on the table at McDonald's, what law am I breaking by > > scooping up the printout and making billions with your creation? I thought > > this was exactly why most people guard as-yet-uncopyrighted works so > > fiercely. > > Copyright protection is automatic; the original author doesn't have to > do anything special except prove his authorship. So you have no > rights to that code unless he gives you some, via a licence. You can > still use his *ideas* and make billions, ideas can't be copyrighted; > they can be patented but that is not automatic. Registration of Copyright grants you additional protections under U.S. law. It is conceivable that someone would be careful, if they were desirous of those protections. In addition, unpatented materials which are disclosed are treated differently, based on jurisdiction. In the U.S., disclosure of an idea starts a one year clock on the filing for a patent on the idea. In most other countries, disclosure makes it inelegible for patent. For software, this is really not the primary issue, since most other countries do not recognize software as being subject to process patent protection. However... There is a concept called a "submerged patent". Prior to recent revisions in patent law, it was possible to file for a patent, but not execute on it for any amount of time. This permitted the inventor to hold onto a patent until someone found a commercial use for it, then execute it, and demand royalties or otherwise to be compensated for the use of the patent. Thus the inventor could be assured to maximize their potential revenue from the patent by starting the protection clock, but not starting the expiration clock until the patent was commericalized. Protection was thus measured from date of issue, rather from date of filing. THis was changed recently to be 20 years from date of filing, rather than 17 from date of issue, in an attempt to prevent submerged patents (disclosure protection was intended to promote progress in the arts and sciences; this doesn't work as well in the face of submerged patents). But it's still possible to get the effect of a "submerged patent", by permitting someone else to patent later than you, and take the time between when you could have filed and they did file, as the submersion period. THis works because you can take someone's patent away from them, if you can demonstrate prior art. And if it was not disclosed prior to the patent, then you never started the one year (U.S.) disclosure-to-patent-application clock. So it's reasonable in some circumstances to be paranoid about disclosure, even though you already have copyright protection. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 15:37:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF1937B417 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tzkB-0005md-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:37:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF8693.11F3A122@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:36:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Pulsford , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEFFAF.5C31E634@optusnet.com.au> <3CAF78E0.5EBD3351@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > It depends on whether you own the CDROM media, or not, at > least in the United States. The US has a doctorine called > "first use", in which, if you buy something, and own it, > then you can dictate what people can and can not do with it. > > This has been tested in courts many times, in video piracy, > software piracy, and CD, record, and tape resale cases. > > Simply put, the doctorine permits you to copy the contents > of media you own for your own use, as many times as you want, > and you are even legally permitted to give away these copies > (but it is illegal for you to sell them). Just to clarify: it is also illegal for the people receiving the legal copies to copy the contents, or give away copies, since they are not the first users. Transfer of ownership removes "first use" protection from you, and gives it to the person to whom you transferred posession. It's amusing that, when this happens, you are not permitted to keep copies you made for yourself, you have to recopy, with the permission of the first owner. Also, people who you gave the copies to can not give the copies back. This was actually used in a video piracy case to convict on the basis of 3 tapes... out of the approximately 10,000 in the persons collection, only 3 were technically "pirated". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 15:50:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7867637B47B for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 15:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0254.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.254] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tzuo-0001HQ-00; Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:48:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3CAF8925.588E0531@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 15:47:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Tony Finch , Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020406150212.B1027@rain.macguire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > So now everyone who writes code is expected to be well read in > > copyright? Some of us are, but most of us aren't... > > This doesn't seem like an unreasonable burden to me. Anyone who drives > a car is expected to be well read (or at least reasonably familiar with) laws > governing vehicles and roads. Anyone who engages in investments is expected to > be well read (or again, at least reasonably familiar with) laws governing > investments. You'd probably be hard pressed to find a service provider, > creator, or manufacturer who was unaware or unfamiliar with of the legal > situation surrounding their activities. This is a barrier to entry for any business. It means that lobbying for additional regulations is a means of locking out potential future competition. Not that this doesn't happen (the Honda CRX-HF, which was 68 MPG on the EPA stickers, and the Yugo were both effectively barred entry into the U.S. by rules lobbying by the big 3 auto makers). People driving cars are not really that well informed about the law. The driver's license you get is actually a contract with implied provisions. You can decline these provisions, and thus nut be bound by them -- but your life will be a living hell, as the state attempts to coerce your compliance. I would not recommend citing the U.S.C. section that permits you to opt out from the contract provisions, next to your signature on the DMV form. For investments, there is certainly a much higher standard for investment practioners than for lay investors. Most services permitting lay investors to invest on their own recognizance are rife with disclaimers and other license-based hold harmless. For manufacturers... well, there is a barrier to entry, but it is unreasonable for society to expect every "Mom and Pop" operation to be as cognizant of the rules as GM or IBM. In fact, the law specifically excepts small businesses from a *lot* of legislation; for example, if you have under a certain number of employees, you are not required to provide medical benefits, etc.. > I've only heard of 1 case ever where someone was able to convince a judge > that they were innocent by way of not knowing the law. That was in response to > an obscure and undocumented statute, one even the court clerk could not locate > in the lawbooks, which said he couldn't park a motorcycle in between car > parking spots. =P If you can't point to the statute, it's not there. However, if you ever have a speeding ticket, and it's not on a federally funded road, ask a lawyer friend if your state has a "prima facia" law. You may be surprised... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 6 17:46:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.171]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7516A37B416 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 17:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax4-074.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.147.74]) by mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g371kSJ29378; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 11:46:28 +1000 Message-ID: <3CAFA609.32DD89E4@optusnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 11:51:05 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> <3CAF74A9.135485DA@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Ian Pulsford wrote: > > Relicensing is illegal without the creator or owner or licence's > > "license". The owner has copyright and gives license for others to > > distribute or copy or whatever. The way I understood Stallman's idea of > > a "compatible licence" was one that didn't interfere (via restrictions) > > with a piece of source code being linked or otherwise compiled with > > GPLed stuff. > > And thereby triggering the "must be GPL'ed" requirement of > the license, without failing to meet the "no additional > restrictions" requirement of the GPL. It has to do with him > believing you can GPL the code. But surely, strictly speaking, you can't? Adding a license is not one a right you get automatically when you get a piece of code. Actually I reread the GPL carefully a little while ago and I am not convinced that you need to give everything distributed with GPLed software a GPL. I think this is a misunderstanding that has gotten out of control. In section 2 of the GPL: "These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it." This doesn't say you have to give separate works the GPL license only that you have to distribute it under the same terms while it is part of a GPLed package. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message