From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 8 15:15:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6351637B401 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656AB43FD7 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.vanderhoek@utoronto.ca) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([64.231.5.15]) by tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20030608221542.CUDE18740.tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 18:15:42 -0400 Received: from localhost.nowhere (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.nowhere (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h58MFTNX086872; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 18:15:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.nowhere) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h58MFLlL086867; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 18:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 18:15:20 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Message-ID: <20030608221520.GA72530@turquoise> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> <152193951140.20030601041329@myrealbox.com> <20030601060733.GA31655@turquoise> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 22:15:52 -0000 On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 05:55:57PM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > But I would also accept the following two sentences as equally idiomatic > > and semantically equivalent: > > > > (3) In case there is an explosion, call the police. > > > > (4) Call the police in case there is an explosion. > > Interesting. I strongly disagree. Sentence (4) tells me to call the > police now to prepare for an explosion which only MIGHT happen. I guess > that's called an "idiomatic" usage, because it doesn't seem right when No, an "idiomatic" usage is just something that soothes the savage language beast which we all keep under lock and key deep in the bowels of our brains. If something is not idiomatic, then it will give you pensive pause as you struggle to distill its intended meaning. Example: Not idiomatic this sentence is. This sentence, not idiomatic. English (is) really attached to verbs, even useless ones, so arguably something like the above isn't even correct, let alone idiomatic. Illustrative purposes only. :) I agree that the use of "In case" at the beginning of a sentence definitely makes it a potential garden path sentence. A garden path sentence is often subject to misparsing, but that doesn't mean it's not idiomatic. The horse raced past the barn fell. Of course, that classic example is not completely idiomatic, IMHO. OTOH, it's at all not unimaginable. After it was raced, which horse fell? The horse raced past the barn fell. Oh. I see. Digression: If you speak a little bit of British English (I've heard the word used in the British sense around here, too) then it's even worse. The barn fell could be the fell by the barn as opposed to the fell by the lake. (Ie, fell can be a noun). Which fell did the horse race past? The horse raced past the barn fell. Oh, phew. I thought it had escaped and raced past the lake fell. That's why we say "that" all the time. "The horse that was raced past the barn fell." "The horse raced past the fell by the barn." > one analyzes it. Here's a similar example in which the idiomatic meaning > is more obvious: "Wear your jacket, in case it gets windy." (Now THAT'S > a precaution.) In (4), that reading is so absurd that I know the writer > must have meant (3) (or (5), below). > > Changing the "in case" in (4) removes the just-referenced idiom. Yes, I agree. All your example replacements of "in case" reduce the potential confusion. "In a case where ..." "In a case of ...", etc. > > English is kinda neat in that you can mix the phrases around in almost > > any order and still have a semantically equivalent sentence: > > But it's less neat if you don't know the exceptions, especially as they > differ from person to person. Bah humbug! :) > > (6) Keep a fire extinguisher by the stove in case there is a fire. > > (7) In case there is a fire, keep a fire extinguisher by the stove. > > Sorry; those are not even close to equivalent, as I understand them. > The second is only tolerable since you know the wrongness of it's > actual meaning. Hmm.... I have a really difficult time believing that there is a such a difference in English between here (Toronto) and NW US. I did a quick google search. An example from the UK (but I found the same sentence at an Australian government site, so I'm not sure what it's origin was): - -> In case there is a fire at night keep a torch in good working order... - [ http://www.odiham-fire-station.co.uk/Safety/evac.html ] An example from New Jersey: - -> Make an escape plan in case there is a fire. - [ http://www.healthsquare.com/mc/fgmc1414.htm ] Both are clearly precautionary. If I read your email correctly, you say that you will hear the first one as being an "If ... then ..." and the second as being precautionary. But here, from Stanford University we have: - -> The Self Rescuer is an emergency device that he only uses in case -> there is a fire underground. - [ http://pangea.stanford.edu/~kurt/kurt-mine-lingo.html ] This from an elementary school that appears to be American: - -> In case there is a fire, keep your door closed and call for -> help! - [ http://www.myschoolonline.com/student_showcase/0,2711,44885-142467-46-3007,00.html ] Both of these are "If ... then ..." semantics (the Stanford one is more obvious once you read what the Self Rescuer unit actually does). One thing was pretty clear from the google search. It's much much more common to use "in case ..." at the end of a sentence than at the beginning. Indeed, of the first six examples of "In case ..." at the beginning of a sentence, four of them were from suspected non-native English speakers (Russia, Israel, Hungary, and an American giving Spanish courses who used an "In case ..." construct as a sample sentence for translation. > Now in these, I put the "wrongness" in the opposite sentence, but I > think the semantic difference is clear; the second is quite reasonable, > while the first makes me laugh. I see someone whacking their beard as a > precautionary measure. > > > (11) *Give her the Heimlech meaneouver in case she starts choking. > > (12) *Give her the Heimlech maneouver in case of her choking. An asterisk in front of a sentence denotes the sentence as being incorrect or unacceptable (ie, non-idiomatic). By using asterisks I was submitting that neither sentence (11) nor sentence (12) is both idiomatic and able to convey the intended semantics. > We differ again. The first makes me laugh again. The second imparts > the reasonable meaning, though it sounds like less-than-perfect grammar. ... Hence you agree with my use of the asterisk. :-) -- There are two types of tasks in life: those which become less urgent as time passes, and those which become more urgent. Rotating one's .signature file is a task of the latter type. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 8 21:15:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D495637B401 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 21:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caseyjones.dundee.net (caseyjones.dundee.net [216.234.106.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7599343FCB for ; Sun, 8 Jun 2003 21:15:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bounce-langalist-28011777@lyris.dundee.net) From: "fred@langa.com" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 23:59:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: Subject: [langalist] LangaList Standard Edition 2003-06-09 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: listreply_std@langa.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 04:15:58 -0000 You are currently subscribed as: chat@freebsd.org UNSUBSCRIBE: Click here. ADDRESS CHANGE / OTHER PROBLEMS: See info at the end of this note. LangaList: ISSN 1533-1156. Advertising rates and info available at http://www.langa.com/ratecard.htm . Questions about the advertisers? See the end of this note. Please also see the legal info at the end of this note. Please recommend the LangaList to a friend! See http://www.langa.com/recommend.htm ! Want the HTML edition (and more) delivered right to your mailbox? See this. To read it online, click here The LangaList Standard Edition 2003-06-09 A Free Email Newsletter from Fred Langa That Helps You Get More From Your Hardware, Software, and Time Online Please visit our sponsors and help keep the LangaList S.E. free! Contents: 1) More CD Shrapnel! 2) Question Re: Upgrading To XP 3) Professional Network Security 4) Another HomePage Hijacker On The Loose 5) Looking For Easy, Lightweight Rollback Tools 6) Is This Information Useful? 7) Outpost Firewall Updated 8) They Just Keep Coming And Coming... 9) Another Way To Remove System Files (XP, 2K) 10) Just For Grins 11) Plus! Edition Highlights: "Platform for Privacy Preferences" When To Give Up On A Problem Revealed: All(?) Hidden Google Options --- ( Your Clicks On Ad Links Help Keep The LangaList S.E. Free! ) --- Free tech support! Free shipping! Limited lifetime warranty! Compatibility guarantee! "Dear Fred: As a subscriber of yours I have to say that your comments about Crucial are not enough. I have Crucial memory in all my computers and they are just the greatest company and the very best place to purchase memory. Their tech dept. even clued me in to a go around to install 768 MB RAM in Win 98 SE which normally does not like over 512, but the go-around works. They are the greatest!--- Marsh Pomroy" Click! --------------( the above is an advertisement )-------------- 1) More CD Shrapnel! In "Exploding CDs" ( http://www.langa.com/newsletters/2003/2003-05- 29.htm#5 ) I wrote "Shrapnel 'blowing out the front of the drive' seems extreme--- and possibly apocryphal--- but it could happen." Could, and did! I would like to tell you of 2 incidents where this happened to me. I was installing new CD-ROMs into 2 different customers machines when both exploded with the first use after installation. What I felt was unusual was that they were 2 different brands (both rated at 52x ) using brand new UNLABELED CDs that had just had been thru a CD-RW to burn data. When they exploded it damn near made me change my pants cause it sounded like a shotgun blast! Fortunately they didn't eject the bits of plastic at great velocity but it sure was embarrassing! The good news was when the local distributor replaced both drives straight away (mind you after falling around on the floor laughing!!) with no questions. Regards, Arthur Smith I too had a CD disintegrate while using it. It was a MS Office set-up disk in a 52X Delta CD. The pieces didn't come out of the unit but it blew the tray door open and knocked the tray out of its track. I was able to salvage the unit. I spoke to MS and they told me it happens sometimes. They sent me a new office set but I had to pay $25.00 for it. Keep up the excellent work. V/R Del Paxton Hi Fred, Oh yes! That happened to us a few years back. I had bought a Pentium III 450 just for the kids games. Brand new. The PC was just a few months old. Had a 48X CD Rom. Samsung, I think. [My daughter] Kristen was playing the game, and I was in the same room on the other side doing something, when all of a sudden there was a sound of a loud exploding pop. Kind of like fireworks. Large ones. And Fred, there wasn't any indication of this going to happen. Everything sounded normal. There wasn't any excessive noise coming from that drive. And the game had only been running for about 10 minutes. Anyway, Kristen screamed and went sideways off the chair away from the PC. I realized it was the computer, so I ran across the room and turned the surge strip off and then pulled the power plug out of the wall, grabbed Kristen and got out of the room. I waited a little bit to make sure nothing else was going to explode, and went back in. Sure enough, that explosion blew the whole face plate off the CD drive itself, and the CD drawer was stuck out about 2 inches. And there it was. All the pieces of sharp bits of the CD laying around. As I got to looking around the room, a lot of the pieces had shot across quite some distance. I gathered all of them up and put them in a plastic bag. The PC was sitting just to the right of the monitor on top of a desk. Thank goodness it didn't shoot any pieces into Kristens face. They were very sharp, with some larger, knife-like pieces.... I disconnected all the cables to the PC and took the side of the case off and removed the whole CD Rom drive. I managed to get the drawer open further. There were a few small pieces and a lot of sharp slivers.... I took the plastic bag full of the remains of the CD and my receipt and the box for the software, back to Target. Showed the girl the bag with the pieces and told her what had happened.... They didn't have a problem at all giving me my money back. Thanks Fred! Claudia Siebenmark Wow! Elsewhere in her note, Claudia suggested NOT to put your system where the CD drawer is anywhere near face level. Makes good sense! Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm --- ( Your Clicks On Ad Links Help Keep The LangaList S.E. Free! ) --- "Dear Fred, first let me say that originally a friend introduced me to the Langa List. At that time I was a Standard Edition subscriber, I thought I was being thrifty by not spending any money. Eventually my friend went to the Plus and he kept telling me about all the great stuff he was finding there. So I went for it. If I had known how much extra information, downloads and other tidbits I was missing out on I would have subscribed to the Plus a long, long time ago! The money was well worth it. Keep up the good work!" ---Mike Styczinski Thank you, Mike! The LangaList Plus! Edition is just $1 per month, and is ad-free, spam-proof, and contains even more content--- tips, tricks, advice, downloads....--- than the Standard Edition you're now reading. Get all the details: Click! --------------( the above is an advertisement )-------------- 2) Question Re: Upgrading To XP Fred: Perhaps you can help me with this question. My computer is running Windows ME. I want to upgrade to Windows XP. I would like to clean out the hard drive and do a fresh install. Is there a way to do this with an Upgrade version of Windows XP without having to reinstall ME first? ---Dan Yes indeed. The "upgrade" version of XP (like previous versions of Windows) usually doesn't require that a previous version of Windows actually be installed on the hard drive, as long as you can prove that you have the previous version of Windows, and thus do qualify to use the less-expensive "upgrade" version of the new OS. You can use the "upgrade" CD to install even to an empty hard drive, if you wish. Usually, it goes like this: At some point during the setup process, you'll be asked to insert the original setup CD from the qualifying previous version of Windows. The new version of Windows sniffs the old CD to see if it's legit, and if it is, then allows the "upgrade" installation to proceed, even if the hard drive is empty. There can be snags and it doesn't always work. For example, it can be hard--- or impossible--- to upgrade some OEM (vendor) versions of Windows this way because you won't have the actual qualifying CD to show as proof of upgrade eligibility. This is especially the case where vendors only provide "recovery" CDs and not an actual OS CD. In instances like that, you'll have to install at least a minimal version of the old OS onto the clean hard drive before performing the upgrade. And some specialty upgrade versions of Windows--- such as those on TechNet CDs--- must be installed from within a running copy of Windows. In these cases, there is no good way to install these versions of Windows to an empty hard drive. But if you have the normal setup CD for a version of Windows that qualifies for an upgrade, you're usually all set. Make a backup, wipe the hard drive (eg fdisk), pop in the XP CD (you don't even have to reformat the drive first), feed in the old CD when asked, and you're off and running. Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm 3) Professional Network Security Hi Fred, I have done all the Network scanning tools out there (well most of them). We used Linux for the better part of ten years, but as the products which run on NT got better, {Linux heads please notice, I said the PROGRAMS GOT BETTER, I never said the windows PROGRAMS ARE BETTER} we slowly moved on, When I found this program, all the linux boxes were retired. http://www.gfisoftware.com/ This program is a must have for any windows based network tech. It allows for custom reports in XML format and for network wide patch deployment, by using this program I have exposed weakness in the DOD / ANG network as well as other "HARDENED" networks, casinos, banks, Loan companies, Doctors, Medical Billing offices. It works well over the web (VPN) as well as the local lan. The price of Security your network should not be based on the price of the product but the value of the network you wish to secure. But Hey as an Old 2600 Phreak (hacker in today terms) I know what I can do to a network with a tiny hole, so I am always looking for that hole in my systems. ---Ryan Most of the GFI tools (there are many) have free trials, and some are completely free for noncommercial use. Even the commercial versions aren't that expensive on a per-PC basis (LANguard is around $12 per seat, for example). Certainly worth a look. Thanks, Ryan! Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm --- ( Your Clicks On Ad Links Help Keep The LangaList S.E. Free! ) --- Have You Noticed The Repeat Advertisers In The LangaList? Many advertisers come back issue after issue because advertising in the LangaList is both EFFECTIVE and AFFORDABLE. Give it a try for your product, service, web site or organization. It costs less than you think and you'll like the results! Click! --------------( the above is an advertisement )-------------- 4) Another HomePage Hijacker On The Loose They seem to come in waves--- evil sites and software that try to take over your browser by locking it to a homepage not of your choosing, or by forcing toolbars into the browser, or worse. I don't know what these sites are thinking--- how can they imagine that this behavior will win them customers? But it must somehow work, as this bad behavior is common. Fred: Recently we began having problems with Internet Explorer. The home page redirects to [URL REMOVED] Originally it put all sorts of shortcuts on my desktop plus an unwanted toolbar (one called eargckstcbl) which I cannot remove from IE or any other Microsoft Windows program it appears in (Word, Windows Explorer). I have controlled it by blacklisting it in my Popup Killer Software but I really want to eliminate it from the computer altogether. Also, we get an error message nCase Alert which when prompted to get a "fix" redirects us again to this unwanted website. Help! What can we do to get rid of this problem .... Anything you can do would be most appreciated. --- Al and Janice Barth The simplest fix may not work, but it's worth a try: Set your homepage back to where you want (via Tools/Internet Options/Home Page), and then- -- while you're in the same dialog box--- delete all temporary internet files, including offline content; and delete all cookies. Next, click to the "Programs" tab and select the "Reset Web Settings" button. That may help to force things back to normal. Close the Internet Tools dialog, and then try to remove the toolbar by right clicking on any blank space of the toolbar area (except the one you are trying to delete) and uncheck (deselect) the offending toolbar. If this doesn't work, you can try using Regedit to search the Registry for any instance of the bad homepage's name or URL; and for the name "eargckstcbl" or any other obvious word uniquely associated with the unwanted home page or toolbar. Delete any such references. Spybot ( http://beam.to/spybotsd ), AdAware ( http://www.lavasoftusa.com/) and PestPatrol ( http://www.safersite.com/) all may help, too: These links may also help: http://www.google.com/search?q=unwanted+toolbar+ie http://www.google.com/search?q=unwanted+toolbar http://www.langa.com/iereg.htm http://www.langa.com/newsletters/2000/2000-07-10.htm#2 Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm 5) Looking For Easy, Lightweight Rollback Tools Hi Fred! Thanks for providing such a great service. LangaList is the only newsletter I find worth subscribing to. I'm still using Win98, but my laptop is now way past its prime and a new one is in the cards. I intend to move to XP, but hope you can provide an XP suitable alternative to my favorite program, Powerquest's Second Chance. I know this is no substitute for regular backups, so I keep those. But, for everyday use, installing test programs, drivers, config changes, reg patches, etc. it is a godsend. I keep my system running reasonably slickly, reverting to a previous state every week or so, keeping only the new files I've created, or downloaded. New programs only get a permanent place when they've earned it. If I get 'crashes' or conflicts, I'll do a revert and things are back to normal. I am severely disabled, so plugging in CD writers and backup discs is a big issue, so reverting to proper backups isn't easy. In fact, I've only had to do it once. Now, I'm looking for the same facility using XP. System Restore only keeps the system files in order. Backup and mirror programs have their place, but don't allow an easy complete reversion, with a simple method to highlight and keep changes I like. What can you suggest? I'm not buying a new laptop until I've heard your ideas! Thanks, Tony Well, a lot of people like Roxio's GoBack ( http://www.google.com/search?q=goback ), which provides an intermediate level of protection--- more than System Restore, less than a full backup. It can be a space and cpu hog, but if you need that kind of intermediate capability, and if you keep it in check (don't let it chew on everything, all the time), and don't expect it to take the place of full, regular backups or images, it can be OK. Symantec/Norton offers various Registry snapshot/backup tools that can monitor changes, and also help you undo deleterious ones. There also are many, many other tools in this category: http://www.google.com/search?q=system+snapshot http://www.google.com/search?q=system+rollback Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm 6) Is This Information Useful? If you think the LangaList is a worthwhile read, maybe a friend would find it useful too! Just use the following link to recommend the LangaList---your friend may find a new source of useful information and you just may win one of three FREE ONE YEAR SUBSCRIPTIONS to the LangaList Plus! edition given each month. (If your name is drawn and you're already a Plus! subscriber, your current subscription will be extended by a full year.) Check out the details at http://www.langa.com/recommend.htm . Thanks for recommending the LangaList--- and good luck! Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm 7) Outpost Firewall Updated We've mentioned Agnitum and its "Outpost" firewall many times (see http://www.google.com/search?as_q=agnitum&as_sitesearch=langa.com ). Now, there's a new version: Fred, I thought you would be interested to know that Agnitum http://www.agnitum.com , the developer of Outpost personal firewall has just released their new version 2.0. It's been nearly a year in development and revision and I must say that it is without rival. Outpost Pro has set a new standard for what a personal firewall should be and I'm sure their competition is going to be scrambling to try and keep up. Current users of Outpost Pro v.1 are entitled to a free upgrade even if their license has expired. This in itself is a strong indication of the type of company Agnitum is and how they value their customers. The "Pro" version is available as an upgrade or you can download it as a 30-day Trial. The free version 2 has yet to be released but it should be out shortly.- --Jeff Outpost Firewall Version 2 Security Features: New Anti-Leak feature monitors components of each application you run. New Stateful Inspection firewall technology provides superior security to packet filtering. New Windows Boot-up protection defends your system before any malicious programs can be loaded. System and application level filtering define broad and precise restrictions. TCP, UDP and ICMP level filtering define access for data packet transmissions. Internet attack blocking (nuke, etc.) averts attacks that can cause system crashes. Port scan detection denies access to intruders. Stealth mode Support makes your computer invisible to attackers. MD5 authentication offers added protection for encrypted messages. E-mail protection guards against dangerous attachments and worms. Firewall engine resides on the lowest possible level of the operating system... [much more info on site] Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm 8) They Just Keep Coming And Coming And Coming... Almost 3,000 of your fellow readers have "Loaded the code." Please click over to http://www.langa.com/code.htm , and maybe you can join them! (If you've already "Loaded The Code" and are wondering if your site will appear here or on the Langa.Com web site, please see http://www.langa.com/link.txt ) Speaking of which: Here's another eclectic sample of reader sites--- some professional, some very personal: View A Randomly-Chosen Reader Site http://www.langa.com/randomlink.htm Manually Browse All Posted-to-Date Sites Starting At http://www.langa.com/readersites.htm Camsul--- "nuclear web browsing" http://www.camsul.com/ 7th Squadron 17th Air Cavalry http://www.ruthlessriders.net/ Mike Works-4-bandwidth http://work4bandwidth.blogspot.com/ Disney Vacation Packages http://www.thevacationplace.com/vacation_packages.htm ARIZONA DESERT GARDENING http://myweb.cableone.net/tfcox/ Barb's Cozy Computer Computer Corner http://home.insightbb.com/~sassykitts/home.html 2800 doorknob-hanging signs http://doorknobsigns.sohounion.com/ Barbara Feldman: Welcome to my Office http://www.barbarafeldman.com/ Lombard Flowers (Oregon) http://www.lombardflowers.com/ Smartzone for Webmasters http://www.aussiebattler.com/smartzone/webmasters.htm CQ Systems http://www.cqsystems.net/index.html Karl's Driver Site http://www.karlsforums.com/ Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm --- ( Your Clicks On Ad Links Help Keep The LangaList S.E. Free! ) --- CyberGuys! Your LOW COST, Nationwide Computer Accessory & Supply Source! Check out the great deals now: Click here! --------------( the above is an advertisement )-------------- 9) Another Way To Remove System Files (XP, 2K) After reading "Adding Optional System Files, After Install" ( http://www.langa.com/newsletters/2003/2003-05-29.htm#7 ), reader Richard Dent suggested another way to get at some normally hard-to-remove files in XP and Win2000: Fred, In answer to Roy Bird's question related to adding and removing optional Windows components I think it's worth mentioning the file SYSOC.INF located in either c:\winnt\inf\ or c:\windows\inf\ in Windows 2000 and XP. This is the file that stores the list of optional components that can be installed or removed and you'll notice that quite a few items have the word HIDE next to them which means these items won't appear as options when you go to the add/remove screen. I like to edit sysoc.inf to remove all occurrences of HIDE - leave all the commas there - so I can see a complete list of optional components. What are the HIDEs doing there in the first place? Perhaps it's Microsoft protecting us from ourselves or from the mistaken belief, some of us have, that we can get along without Windows Messenger on our system. ---Richard Dent Thanks, Richard. We mentioned the SYSOC trick some time ago ( http://www.google.com/search?as_q=sysoc&as_sitesearch=langa.com ). Indeed, it can be used to reveal a number of normally-hidden system components, making them easier to control. Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm 10) Just For Grins Reader "kdt15" sends in this two-part gem: We've all been interviewed for jobs. And, we've all spent most of those interviews thinking about what not to do. Don't bite your nails. Don't fidget. Don't interrupt. Don't belch. If we did any of the don'ts, we knew we'd disqualify ourselves instantly. But some job applicants go light years beyond this. We surveyed top personnel executives of 100 major American corporations and asked for stories of unusual behavior by job applicants. The lowlights: 1. "... stretched out on the floor to fill out the job application." 2. "She wore a Walkman and said she could listen to me and the music at the same time." 3. " A balding candidate abruptly excused himself. Returned to office a few minutes later, wearing a hairpiece." 4. "... asked to see interviewers resume to see if the personnel executive was qualified to judge the candidate." 5. "... announced she hadn't had lunch and proceeded to eat a hamburger and French fries in the interviewers office - wiping the ketchup on her sleeve" 6. "Stated that, if he were hired, he would demonstrate his loyalty by having the corporate logo tattooed on his forearm." 7. "Interrupted to phone his therapist for advice on answering specific interview questions." 8. "When I asked him about his hobbies, he stood up and started tap dancing around my office." 9. "At the end of the interview, while I stood there dumbstruck, he went through my purse, took out a brush, brushed his hair, and left." (continued next issue...) Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm --- ( Your Clicks On Ad Links Help Keep The LangaList S.E. Free! ) --- 50-80% OFF RETAIL! Computer Closeouts! Overstocks! Liquidations! Free Stuff, Too! Click! --------------( the above is an advertisement )-------------- 11) Plus! Edition Highlights: "Platform for Privacy Preferences" (how to use it; or add it to your site) When To Give Up On A Problem (sometimes, starting over is the best choice) Reference To Many Hidden Google Options (free download guides you to tons of little-known options) Just 14 cents an issue--- a dollar a month--- gets you additional special features, 30% extra content and special links on a private web site. All that, plus a money-back guarantee! Full Plus! Edition info: http://www.langa.com/plus.htm Click to email this item to a friend http://www.langa.com/sendit.htm See you next issue! Best, Fred ( Editor@Langa.Com ) --- Need Help? Have A problem? UNSUBSCRIBE: From your chat@freebsd.org mail account (this is the account you used to sign up with), send an email to leave-langalist-28011777C@lyris.dundee.net , or click here. SUBSCRIBE (it's free!): Create and send a new email to subscribe-langalist@lyris.dundee.net CHANGE ADDRESS? LIST TROUBLE? HAVE QUESTIONS? OTHER PROBLEM? NEED HELP? See http://www.langa.com/help.htm This newsletter is SPAM PROOF and requires two levels of subscriber confirmation before delivery begins: See http://www.langa.com/info.htm About the advertisers: http://www.langa.com/privacy.htm#ads Disclaimer: http://www.langa.com/legal.htm In brief: All information herein is offered as-is and without warranty of any kind. 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From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 01:34:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F9F37B401; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 01:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from builder.freebsdmall.com (builder.freebsdmall.com [65.86.180.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2986243FDD; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 01:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@builder.freebsdmall.com) Received: by builder.freebsdmall.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 7FBE31475; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 01:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 01:33:59 -0700 From: Murray Stokely To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20030609083359.GG390@freebsdmall.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/0E451F7D X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: E2CA 411D DD44 53FD BB4B 3CB5 B4D7 10A2 0E45 1F7D Subject: [will@FreeBSD.org: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors article.sgml] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 08:34:01 -0000 --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The FreeBSD Project mourns the loss of Alan Eldridge, and offers condolences to his family and friends. His contributions to the FreeBSD Project, material and otherwise, have been much appreciated; he will be remembered. FreeBSD Core Team ----- Forwarded message from Will Andrews ----- From: Will Andrews Subject: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors article.sgml To: doc-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-doc@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 20:13:26 -0700 (PDT) will 2003/06/08 20:13:26 PDT FreeBSD doc repository Modified files: en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors article.sgml=20 Log: Move AlanE to developer alumni. Rest in peace, Alan. =20 Reviewed by: make lint, bmah =20 Revision Changes Path 1.393 +5 -4 doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/article.sg= ml ----- End forwarded message ----- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE+5EZ2tNcQog5FH30RAok4AJ4+0yCRufF9aO0bdM1Xq/NpdqKU2gCdG43b KSk79Xb7jwSWeVI7sS0ux0I= =T1wM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 02:42:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F7637B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (adsl-19-42-24.asm.bellsouth.net [68.19.42.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B22C43FAF for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:42:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (sektie@localhost.codersluts.net [127.0.0.1])h59Ag5Aa078760; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:42:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) From: "sektie" To: Makoto Matsushita , rsidd@online.fr Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:42:05 -0500 Message-Id: <20030609103115.M77088@codersluts.net> In-Reply-To: <20030607181751T.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> References: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr> <20030607181751T.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Open WebMail 2.01 20030425 X-OriginatingIP: 66.223.56.152 (sektie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 09:42:49 -0000 Personally, I don't care. I'm just about the most OCD person about my computers that I have ever seen (ex: cvsup ports nightly, if 'pkg_version | grep "<"' returns something more than two nights in a row, my cell phone gets an SMS). Everything has to be beautiful and perfect, but I really don't care what the documentation says. That's for a person more anal than myself to complain about. However, I do think that switching it from 'i386' to 'x86' wouldn't be that big a deal. If you know what i386 is, then x86 isn't going to confuse you (ia-32, eh, not so sure about that one). If you don't know what i386 is, then I seriously doubt you are going to be looking at anything more complex than a mac or winxp. The question isn't "are people going to understand?"; it's "who is going to put the effort into doing that much work in the documentation?". More power to ya if ya have the time. Why not do something more useful, though, like reverse engineer the DLink 520+? I'd give massive hugs to the person that comes up with drivers for that. Getting rid of that clunky Linksys and letting my fbsd server be the access point as well would take care of me having to replace the crossover cable every 2 weeks due to a teething 2 year old... Much love, Randi sektie@codersluts.net http://perlpimp.codersluts.net/ ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Makoto Matsushita To: rsidd@online.fr Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sent: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:17:51 +0900 Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? > rsidd> Debian (to take a random example): > rsidd> http://www.debian.org/ports/ > rsidd> Intel x86 / IA-32 (``i386'')... > (other messages deleted) > > Please note that "(Put your favorite OS except FreeBSD) calls it > ia32, so should we" is bad idea, since FreeBSD is FreeBSD :-) And, the > message you mention is that "i386" is very common name for PCs, they > cannot simply says it's x86 and/or IA-32. > > We're not teacheres of computer architecture; the name should be > common to us, rather than strict meanings. > > -- - > Makoto `MAR' Matsushita > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ------- End of Original Message ------- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 02:51:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E6C37B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (adsl-19-42-24.asm.bellsouth.net [68.19.42.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EB9143FCB for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 02:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (sektie@localhost.codersluts.net [127.0.0.1])h59AoEAa078836; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:50:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) From: "sektie" To: Bill Moran , "Gary W. Swearingen" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:50:14 -0500 Message-Id: <20030609104525.M93446@codersluts.net> In-Reply-To: <3EE2303D.2040700@potentialtech.com> References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> <20030607021309.GC86974@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030607134841.GA13998@online.fr> <3EE2303D.2040700@potentialtech.com> X-Mailer: Open WebMail 2.01 20030425 X-OriginatingIP: 66.223.56.152 (sektie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 09:51:08 -0000 > You know ... the way this year's been going ... about the only good thing > I can say is that I've really enjoyed considering other people stupid > because they don't understand my jargon. Please don't take that > away from me ... once the debt collectors are through ... it'll be > all I have left! The only thing worse than a room full of IT people understanding nothing you say is a room full of IT people understanding everything you say. You don't realize the value of other peoples stupidity until something breaks and you can't talk your way out of it by making their head spin with words like 'fsck' and 'semaphore'. FYI, 'semaphore' is a classic for making peoples heads spin with comments such as "The semaphores would not spin up, so I had to fsck the global RAM and load the kernel into userland to automate patching. That's why the server was down 4 hours." I really miss bofh_fortune. Randi sektie@codersluts.net http://perlpimp.codersluts.net From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 04:07:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1840537B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 04:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6892843F75 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 04:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19PKUT-000Ab9-J1; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:07:05 +0100 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:07:05 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20030609110705.GC34980@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:07:05 -0000 On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 12:54:17PM -0400, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Typical stupid red-herring answer one gets. I already said more than > once that I'm referring to things like release notes and press > information. OK, how many MDs do you know, that know what type of CPU they have in their machine at work? If you said to them "Is it an i386, an IA-32, an x86, a Pentium 4, or all of these?" they would say "Pentium 4" and only then if they are particularly interested in technology. The receptionist on the front desk might know it's something to do with Intel - "you know, the ones with that funny tune in the adverts" - but don't care what it is. Putting something in the release docs about IA-32 is going to confuse them as much as i386. The only way to help those people is to list every processor, everywhere (i386, i486, Pentium, Pentium 2, Pentium MMX, Pentium 3, Celeron, Pentium 4, Cyrix... AMD....) and that's just silly. Geeks, on the other hand, know that (say) Intel P4s are IA-32, x86, i386 compatible processors and probably don't care much which one of them is used within the documents and source providing that they know it will work, and where there are issues (e.g. old Pentiums that need the F00F hack) the problems are documented specifically for that processor. In other words, the only people who care are probably Intel's marketing guys and pedants (a venn diagram of these two sectors can be provided on request) and absolutely nobody else at all, gives a damn. > Debian (to take a random example): > http://www.debian.org/ports/ > Intel x86 / IA-32 (``i386'')... > Linux was originally developed for the Intel 386 processors, hence the > short name. Debian supports all IA-32 processors, made by Intel, AMD, > Cyrix and other manufacturers. OK, so if at the start of the handbook and on the website (the first paragraph on the homepage) it is appears as: What is FreeBSD? FreeBSD is a modern operating system derived from the BSD UNIX developed at the University of California, Berkeley. It is available for a wide range of platforms including desktop PCs (called by various people at different times the x86, i386, IA-32 and PC-98 architectures - we prefer to refer just to i386 even though we mean everything from the 386 onwards), and the DEC Alpha, IA-64 and UltraSPARC architectures. It is developed by a large team of individuals, mostly volunteers. You'd be happy with that? That one change does what your debian example does and means we don't have to change everything everywhere. > Now, which sounds better and more meaningful? And what exactly is the > harm with going the Debian way in this respect? You're asking chat@freebsd.org what is wrong with following Debian's example? Oh dear, oh dear.... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 11:22:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1445F37B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6859E43FCB for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:22:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 963B410BF8D; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:21:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:21:58 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030609182157.GC405@nitro.dk> References: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr> <20030609110705.GC34980@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="i7F3eY7HS/tUJxUd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030609110705.GC34980@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:22:01 -0000 --i7F3eY7HS/tUJxUd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003.06.09 12:07:05 +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > OK, so if at the start of the handbook and on the website (the first=20 > paragraph on the homepage) it is appears as: >=20 > What is FreeBSD? > FreeBSD is a modern operating system derived from the BSD UNIX developed = at > the University of California, Berkeley. It is available for a wide range = of > platforms including desktop PCs (called by various people at different ti= mes > the x86, i386, IA-32 and PC-98 architectures - we prefer to refer just to > i386 even though we mean everything from the 386 onwards), and the DEC > Alpha, IA-64 and UltraSPARC architectures. It is developed by a large team > of individuals, mostly volunteers. But PC-98 is not just another name for i386, it actually has some differences to standard i386. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --i7F3eY7HS/tUJxUd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+5NBF8kocFXgPTRwRAmzkAJ9+HEDQFMUaDB8yw6XsqbE5y+uypwCaA+dA 8AcS68yzV57MGj5WOPMkgi4= =D/RB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --i7F3eY7HS/tUJxUd-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 11:51:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E7B37B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atomic.sparklist.com (atomic.sparklist.com [216.91.57.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5205843F93 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bounce-message-10983079@atomic.sparklist.com) Message-Id: X-sparklist-type: hello From: "SparkLIST.com" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:50:59 -0700 Subject: Welcome to EFT News and Innovations X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "SparkLIST.com" List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:51:01 -0000 Thank you for subscribing to the EFT News and Innovations Newsletter. Our next newsletter will be sent to you automatically upon its release. To view the current and previous EFT Newsletter visit our site at www.eftupdate.com and follow the link to Back Issues of Newsletter. We hope you find the information in the newsletter useful and informative. Please contact us at eftnews@earthlink.net with comments about the newsletter or to unsubscribe from this list. Thank you, Pat Carrington, Editor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 17:57:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349E537B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from craig.afraid.org (h24-69-213-234.cc.shawcable.net [24.69.213.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6799243FAF for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from craig@craig.afraid.org) Received: from fireball.internal.lan ([10.0.0.2] helo=fireball) by craig.afraid.org with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 19PXRu-0009Er-Pt for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:57:18 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> From: "Craig Reyenga" To: Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:57:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Craig Reyenga List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:57:16 -0000 I was just wondering what people think of changing the FreeBSD release numbering system. Here is my idea: -FreeBSD 4.X is stable right now. -FreeBSD 5.0,5.1(maybe 5.2) are not-so-stable. -FreeBSD 5.3 is supposed to be. Perhaps all odd major numbers should be considered development versions. 5.3 would instead be called 6.0, to signify that it is ready for general use by everyone. HEAD would change to 7.0-CURRENT, and the process would repeat, with 7.0-RELEASE thru 7.N-RELEASE (with "N" being the last development version) until the tree is then ready for 8.0, which would be of course marked "stable." I think it is a good idea because I have seen a lot of confusion as to which release people should be installing. Yes, they could RTveryFineM, but some people just don't and I feel a numbering system such as the one above would ease the headache a little. Just my $0.02, maybe worth $0.00 in this case. -Craig (Please note that I am merely thinking out loud, feel free not to insult.) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 18:41:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A817337B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (adsl-19-42-24.asm.bellsouth.net [68.19.42.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741FA43FD7 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (sektie@localhost.codersluts.net [127.0.0.1])h5A2ejAa085244; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:40:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) From: "sektie" To: Craig Reyenga , Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:40:45 -0500 Message-Id: <20030610023926.M93443@codersluts.net> In-Reply-To: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> X-Mailer: Open WebMail 2.01 20030425 X-OriginatingIP: 66.223.56.152 (sektie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:41:27 -0000 Perhaps it's just my lack of sleep, but that sounds a lot more complicated than the current method. The front page of FreeBSD's webpage clearly states what is the current release and such. Randi sektie@codersluts.net http://perlpimp.codersluts.net/ ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "Craig Reyenga" To: Sent: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:57:40 -0700 Subject: FreeBSD Version Release numbers > I was just wondering what people think of changing the FreeBSD > release numbering system. Here is my idea: > > -FreeBSD 4.X is stable right now. > -FreeBSD 5.0,5.1(maybe 5.2) are not-so-stable. > -FreeBSD 5.3 is supposed to be. > > Perhaps all odd major numbers should be considered development > versions. 5.3 would instead be called 6.0, to signify that it is > ready for general use by everyone. HEAD would change to 7.0-CURRENT, > and the process would repeat, with 7.0-RELEASE thru 7.N-RELEASE > (with "N" being the last development version) until the tree is then > ready for 8.0, which would be of course marked "stable." > > I think it is a good idea because I have seen a lot of confusion as > to which release people should be installing. Yes, they could > RTveryFineM, but some people just don't and I feel a numbering > system such as the one above would ease the headache a little. > > Just my $0.02, maybe worth $0.00 in this case. > > -Craig > > (Please note that I am merely thinking out loud, feel free not to > insult.) > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ------- End of Original Message ------- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 19:09:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02AAA37B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sc005pub.verizon.net (sc005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5792243F85 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from [4.47.74.254] (port=17653 helo=europa) by sc005pub.verizon.net with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 19PYZg-0003Wl-3h; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:09:24 -0500 Message-ID: <004301c32ef5$e282bd30$6f64a8c0@europa> From: "Robert Clark" To: "sektie" , "Makoto Matsushita" , References: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr><20030607181751T.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> <20030609103115.M77088@codersluts.net> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 19:13:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:09:40 -0000 If we switched to x86, how many people would show up expecting FreeBSD to run on 8086, 80186, or 80286? 80386sx-16 (shudder). [RC] ----- Original Message ----- From: "sektie" To: "Makoto Matsushita" ; Cc: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 3:42 AM Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? > Personally, I don't care. > > I'm just about the most OCD person about my computers that I have ever seen > (ex: cvsup ports nightly, if 'pkg_version | grep "<"' returns something more > than two nights in a row, my cell phone gets an SMS). Everything has to be > beautiful and perfect, but I really don't care what the documentation says. > That's for a person more anal than myself to complain about. > > However, I do think that switching it from 'i386' to 'x86' wouldn't be that > big a deal. If you know what i386 is, then x86 isn't going to confuse you > (ia-32, eh, not so sure about that one). If you don't know what i386 is, > then I seriously doubt you are going to be looking at anything more complex > than a mac or winxp. > > The question isn't "are people going to understand?"; it's "who is going to > put the effort into doing that much work in the documentation?". > > More power to ya if ya have the time. Why not do something more useful, > though, like reverse engineer the DLink 520+? I'd give massive hugs to the > person that comes up with drivers for that. Getting rid of that clunky > Linksys and letting my fbsd server be the access point as well would take > care of me having to replace the crossover cable every 2 weeks due to a > teething 2 year old... > > Much love, > > Randi > sektie@codersluts.net > http://perlpimp.codersluts.net/ > > ---------- Original Message ----------- > From: Makoto Matsushita > To: rsidd@online.fr > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > Sent: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:17:51 +0900 > Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? > > > rsidd> Debian (to take a random example): > > rsidd> http://www.debian.org/ports/ > > rsidd> Intel x86 / IA-32 (``i386'')... > > (other messages deleted) > > > > Please note that "(Put your favorite OS except FreeBSD) calls it > > ia32, so should we" is bad idea, since FreeBSD is FreeBSD :-) And, the > > message you mention is that "i386" is very common name for PCs, they > > cannot simply says it's x86 and/or IA-32. > > > > We're not teacheres of computer architecture; the name should be > > common to us, rather than strict meanings. > > > > -- - > > Makoto `MAR' Matsushita > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > ------- End of Original Message ------- > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 20:50:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3B937B40C for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2D143F75 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-0cev158.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.168] helo=greenrondo.a.la.turk) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Pa9a-0004PV-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:50:35 -0700 Received: (qmail 5348 invoked by uid 1002); 10 Jun 2003 03:50:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:50:29 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Craig Reyenga Message-ID: <20030610035029.GA5213@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Craig Reyenga , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:50:39 -0000 Craig Reyenda wrote: > I was just wondering what people think of changing the FreeBSD release > numbering system. Here is my idea: > > -FreeBSD 4.X is stable right now. > -FreeBSD 5.0,5.1(maybe 5.2) are not-so-stable. > -FreeBSD 5.3 is supposed to be. > > Perhaps all odd major numbers should be considered development versions. 5.3 > would instead be called 6.0, I think you're thinking of the linux system. It won't actually solve anything. One reason FreeBSD 5.0 and 5.1 are not too stable (apart from the ambitious changes in 5-CURRENT) is that they haven't had enough realworld exposure; if you declare that they're a "development release", you'll only postpone the wide exposure to 6.0, which will then have the same problems. Linux suffers from this too, only more so. It took until 2.4.10 or so for the 2.4 kernel series to start to become stable -- FreeBSD normally "gets there" by the x.1 or x.2 release. Linus is already talking of releasing a 2.6.0-test series, when 2.5 is clearly nowhere near ready yet, simply because more people will test it that way. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 21:12:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A62BB37B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C75F43FDF for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h5A4CIfE028088; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:12:18 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: Craig Reyenga , Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:12:18 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> In-Reply-To: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306101412.18212.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:12:27 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:57 am, Craig Reyenga wrote: > Perhaps all odd major numbers should be considered development versions. > 5.3 would instead be called 6.0, to signify that it is ready for general *shudder* sounds too much like red-hat to me! Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 21:50:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F85637B41E for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A83A43FBD for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:50:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ericr@sourmilk.net) Received: from nutmeg (99.piscataway-06rh16rt.nj.dial-access.att.net[12.89.75.99]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2003061004500211100h1l4me>; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:50:03 +0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:50:22 -0400 From: Eric Rivas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030610005022.289b01b9.ericr@sourmilk.net> In-Reply-To: <200306101412.18212.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <200306101412.18212.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Organization: Sourmilk Products, Inc. X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:50:06 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:12:18 +1000 JacobRhoden wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:57 am, Craig Reyenga wrote: > > Perhaps all odd major numbers should be considered development > > versions. 5.3 would instead be called 6.0, to signify that it is > > ready for general > > *shudder* sounds too much like red-hat to me! Does anyone else think it's a good idea that 5.1 should have been called 5.0.1, then once 5.x goes stable, start with 5.1? That way we keep consistent in that every x.0 version is considered development/test release. > > Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 > ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au > Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > -- Eric Rivas From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 22:23:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D63937B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BCD43FDF for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A6C6EEB9; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id A45D820F21; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:23:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:23:38 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Kurry" To: Eric Rivas Message-ID: <20030610052338.GB14895@over-yonder.net> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <200306101412.18212.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030610005022.289b01b9.ericr@sourmilk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610005022.289b01b9.ericr@sourmilk.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:23:47 -0000 Eric Rivas said something like: > Does anyone else think it's a good idea that 5.1 should have been called > 5.0.1, then once 5.x goes stable, start with 5.1? That way we keep > consistent in that every x.0 version is considered development/test > release. Don't we have -CURRENT precisely for channeling development? dan > -- > Eric Rivas From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 22:24:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3A5437B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc13.attbi.com (sccrmhc13.attbi.com [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061F343F85 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:24:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20030610052414016001kuh2e>; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:24:15 +0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:24:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Eric Rivas In-Reply-To: <20030610005022.289b01b9.ericr@sourmilk.net> Message-ID: <20030609221151.K23396@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610005022.289b01b9.ericr@sourmilk.net> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:24:21 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Eric Rivas wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:12:18 +1000 > JacobRhoden wrote: > > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:57 am, Craig Reyenga wrote: > > > Perhaps all odd major numbers should be considered development > > > versions. 5.3 would instead be called 6.0, to signify that it is > > > ready for general > > > > *shudder* sounds too much like red-hat to me! > > Does anyone else think it's a good idea that 5.1 should have been called > 5.0.1, then once 5.x goes stable, start with 5.1? No. Historically a new branch isn't considered stable till x.2, and minor version numbers are evil. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 9 23:57:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C5E37B401; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F8A743FA3; Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:57:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h5A6vofE009454; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:57:54 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: Doug Barton , Eric Rivas Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:57:50 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610005022.289b01b9.ericr@sourmilk.net> <20030609221151.K23396@znfgre.qbhto.arg> In-Reply-To: <20030609221151.K23396@znfgre.qbhto.arg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306101657.50544.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 06:57:57 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:24 pm, Doug Barton wrote: > > Does anyone else think it's a good idea that 5.1 should have been called > > 5.0.1, then once 5.x goes stable, start with 5.1? hrm thats a much better idea than the previous one... > No. Historically a new branch isn't considered stable till x.2, and > minor version numbers are evil. why are minor versions evil? Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 00:48:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A0E37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F67743FE3 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:48:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc1ah.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.5.81] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Pdrk-0005SO-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:48:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:47:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Craig Reyenga References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4eca9e215969f79dce1cfd116260b10b0a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:48:27 -0000 Craig Reyenga wrote: > Perhaps all odd major numbers should be considered development versions. 5.3 > would instead be called 6.0, to signify that it is ready for general use by > everyone. HEAD would change to 7.0-CURRENT, and the process would repeat, > with 7.0-RELEASE thru 7.N-RELEASE (with "N" being the last development > version) until the tree is then ready for 8.0, which would be of course > marked "stable." The problem with this is you are very soon running version 99 (or 100, if you want it stable). Historically, BSD has used odd minor numbers as new features, and even minor numbers as stabilization. This was broken with 4.4, but that was because of the lawsuit, not through any poor intent on anyone's part. Nothing can kill a product faster than version bloat; witness NetWare and Oracle. PS: I also agree with Rahul's point about early adoption being key to shaking out the bugs. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 00:56:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4406E37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn14.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C9F43FBD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:56:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [210.64.32.88] (port=60876 helo=chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.14:2) id 19PdzP-000FZB-7r for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:56:19 +0800 Received: from chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (nobody@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5A7uHG1007284 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:56:18 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5A7uHHH007283 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:56:17 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:56:17 +0800 From: leafy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:56:22 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:47:05AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > NetWare and Oracle. We can always follow Sun's path. Call the software FreeBSD II, which is FreeBSD 5.2, also known as FreeBSDOS 2.2... -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 02:58:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2892737B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (ip114.bella-vista.sfo.interquest.net [66.199.86.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F88A43FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:58:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5A9w3PB014586 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:58:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5A9w3oJ014585 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:58:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 02:58:03 -0700 From: David Schultz To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <20030610095803.GB14407@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:58:15 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003, leafy wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:47:05AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > NetWare and Oracle. > We can always follow Sun's path. Call the software FreeBSD II, which > is FreeBSD 5.2, also known as FreeBSDOS 2.2... Thankfully FreeBSD does not have a dedicated marketing department. Apparently after Sun multithreaded its kernel and released Solaris 2.0, people weren't willing to call it stable until 2.3 or so. It will be interesting to see how FreeBSD does a decade later. Performance aside, things seem to be looking pretty good so far. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 03:40:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90AC37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.systems.pipex.net (colossus.systems.pipex.net [62.241.160.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16FE643F75 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 03:40:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@thuvia.org) Received: from dotar.thuvia.org (81-86-81-121.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.81.121]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8A716000103; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:39:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from dotar.thuvia.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dotar.thuvia.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5AAdvX8049443; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:39:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@dotar.thuvia.org) Received: (from mark@localhost) by dotar.thuvia.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5AAdv2b049442; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:39:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Message-Id: <200306101039.h5AAdv2b049442@dotar.thuvia.org> From: Mark Valentine Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:39:57 +0000 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 beta(5) 10/07/98) To: ericr@sourmilk.net (Eric Rivas), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:40:01 -0000 > From: ericr@sourmilk.net (Eric Rivas) > Date: Tue 10 Jun, 2003 > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers > Does anyone else think it's a good idea that 5.1 should have been called > 5.0.1, then once 5.x goes stable, start with 5.1? That way we keep > consistent in that every x.0 version is considered development/test > release. I may just be wierd, but I believe that a 5.0 release should be considered "stable" in that there should be no significant issues to be worked out; any problems that surface AFTER the release (despite best effort testing) should be fixable with a patch release (e.g. 5.0.1). Anything with remaining issues sufficient to warrant an "early adopter's guide" should be labelled BETA. However, given the constraints of the FreeBSD project in the current climate, and the pressure not to delay a release interminably, the release team's current approach seems a reasonable compromise. It would certainly be wrong to shoe horn 5.1's significant changes into a "patch release" (5.0.1). Cheers, Mark. -- "Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich." "We're kind of stupid that way." *munch* *munch* -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 04:09:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF7F37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB7C43F75 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19Pgzx-000NOI-Oi; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:09:05 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:09:05 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Simon L. Nielsen" Message-ID: <20030610110905.GG30092@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr> <20030609110705.GC34980@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030609182157.GC405@nitro.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20030609182157.GC405@nitro.dk> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:09:11 -0000 On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 08:21:58PM +0200, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > But PC-98 is not just another name for i386, it actually has some > differences to standard i386. In the context of this discussion, they're the same. That's the point. --=20 Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 04:21:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD5037B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C72843FBD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc1ah.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.5.81] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19PhCB-0001WI-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:21:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:16:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: leafy References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4bce87590781dcb977f7bacf18bc1d558350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:21:48 -0000 leafy wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:47:05AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > NetWare and Oracle. > > We can always follow Sun's path. Call the software FreeBSD II, which > is FreeBSD 5.2, also known as FreeBSDOS 2.2... I suppose we could always rename the OS after the theme song for the Carl Sagan series "Cosmos", as composed by Isao Tomita after being inspired by the Cannes Film Festival Grand Jury Award-winning Russian movie adaptation by director Andrei Tarkovsky of the novel by the Polish author and playwrite Stanislaw Lem. Or we could make fun of Sun for picking that name like Apple did, and go straight for "BHA"... We could always call it "Ijon Tichy", or "Trurl", which is almost a computer reference, given that title. Personally, I'd vote for "Pirx"; it has that all-important "X" on the end, and it's an equally obscure Lem reference. If you really wanted to be out there, though, there's nothing better than "The machine which could make anything, so long as it started with the letter N". That, or "Steelypips", though "Trurl" does have "URL" in it... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 04:28:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9FC37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyblik.pieskovisko.sk (kyblik.pieskovisko.sk [213.215.72.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 51CE343FD7 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from frankie@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk) Received: (qmail 84632 invoked by uid 19508); 10 Jun 2003 11:28:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:28:52 +0200 From: "Michal F. Hanula" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030610112852.GK81410@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:28:55 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 04:16:09AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > leafy wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:47:05AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > NetWare and Oracle. > > > > We can always follow Sun's path. Call the software FreeBSD II, which > > is FreeBSD 5.2, also known as FreeBSDOS 2.2... > [...lots of cool ideas...] > started with the letter N". That, or "Steelypips", though > "Trurl" does have "URL" in it... Where did ``Steelypips'' come from? Remind me of The Cyberiad, but I've only read it in Czech, so it really shouldn't. (The machine that can make anything beginning with N is a good idea. We could even force it to make Natrium if we had a latin locale) > > -- Terry m&f - -- What do you care what other people think? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+5cD04PY2BaN84VwRAn85AJwOIXVUi/lLjMVPIUH+xaBgiw7UqACeI72M JlSX1PTsFI7vV1HmktLRchA= =+MLd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 04:32:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784B437B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FDE443FBD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19PhMY-0001Wj-Kf; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:32:26 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:32:26 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:32:24 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 04:16:09AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > We could always call it "Ijon Tichy", or "Trurl", which is > almost a computer reference, given that title. Personally, > I'd vote for "Pirx"; it has that all-important "X" on the > end, and it's an equally obscure Lem reference. If you > really wanted to be out there, though, there's nothing better > than "The machine which could make anything, so long as it > started with the letter N". That, or "Steelypips", though > "Trurl" does have "URL" in it... Unfortunately, all the good domain names around pirx, trurl and steelypips are gone. Could you consider "L33tOS" for which the .org is still available? I'd also like the handbook re-written in l33t 0-d4y w4R3z speak as well please. Or we could be the entithesis of Darwin and change the name to RedneckOS. It's be popular in the Bible belt. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 04:38:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A643337B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1704443FBF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E186F3D28; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:38:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Paul Robinson Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:38:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EE58AE3.15526.F1038867@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:38:13 -0000 On 10 Jun 2003 at 12:32, Paul Robinson wrote: > Could you consider "L33tOS" for which the .org is still available? I'd also > like the handbook re-written in l33t 0-d4y w4R3z speak as well please. FretBSD.org is up for sale..... -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 05:57:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D0037B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726AE43FA3 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 05:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 3E7CB5310; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:57:03 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Paul Robinson References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:57:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:32:26 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:57:07 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > Or we could be the entithesis of Darwin and change the name to RedneckOS. > It's be popular in the Bible belt. That would require a change of mascot. http://www.milk.com/true-stories/unix_for_the_masses.html DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 06:45:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C5C37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 06:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B67643FBF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 06:45:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19PjR6-000L5p-UY; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:45:16 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:45:16 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Message-ID: <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:45:11 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 02:57:03PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > That would require a change of mascot. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Don't start that one again. Right, look away everybody, nothing to see hear, DES didn't say a word, come on now, get on with your work.... :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 07:26:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CC437B405 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1B743FCB for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5AEQAOg000919; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:26:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:26:10 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:26:28 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 02:57:03PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >>That would require a change of mascot. > > NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Don't start that one again. Right, look away > everybody, nothing to see hear, DES didn't say a word, come on now, get on > with your work.... Oh, come on. I think it's time to consider a new mascot. How 'bout an ostrich? We could call him "strut" for short? Or a pigeon? Alright ... maybe that's not such a good idea, but we could call him "Bert"! Or maybe a dragon? We could call him "Trogdor"! http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html Just some ideas ... -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 08:01:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08C737B404 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32F643FCB for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:01:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19Pkcs-0007fn-FM; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:01:30 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:01:30 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:01:24 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:26:10AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > How 'bout an ostrich? We could call him "strut" for short? syntax is everything. We should call him struct. Or compromise and call him stru[c]t. Might give the wrong impression, you know, sticking the head in the sand and all that. Perhaps suitable only for core. H0h0h0h0h0! > Or a pigeon? Alright ... maybe that's not such a good idea, but we could > call > him "Bert"! I'd prefer a dove. Or a budgie. Pigeons are flying vermin. Except that one from the whacky-races spin-off. In fact, we'd then get a theme tune: http://tv.cream.org/themes/stopthepigeon.mp3 (1.1Mb MP3) Not a bad idea. > Or maybe a dragon? We could call him "Trogdor"! > http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html That rules. I particularly like the arm. But he needs sneakers like beastie. If I had a call, I'd say we should get a polar bear as a mascot. Polar bears are cool: http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/bears.jpg Or perhaps Jennifer Aniston. I'm sure she won't mind if we make her official mascot. And I bet she can do some mean kernel debugging in her spare time. Maybe too ambitious. Aim lower. How about the guy who played Sam in "Cheers"? He's available. He was in that really bad film with Tom Hanks though. Not the type to be seen hanging around BSDcon either... Geez, I need to get on with work.... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 08:31:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B8737B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C291343FCB for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:31:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5AFVsOg000942; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:31:54 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:31:56 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:26:10AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: >>Or maybe a dragon? We could call him "Trogdor"! >>http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html > > That rules. I particularly like the arm. But he needs sneakers like beastie. We could give him a pitchfork as well and many people wouldn't know the difference! -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 08:36:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4353D37B404 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91B643FAF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ADEC6EEB9; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 63AFF20F28; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:36:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:36:19 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:36:24 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 11:31:54AM -0400 I heard the voice of Bill Moran, and lo! it spake thus: > Paul Robinson wrote: > >On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:26:10AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > >>Or maybe a dragon? We could call him "Trogdor"! > >>http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html > > > >That rules. I particularly like the arm. But he needs sneakers like > >beastie. > > We could give him a pitchfork as well and many people wouldn't know the > difference! [10:29:41] mortis:~ (ttyp3):{812}% fortune -m Michelle %% (fortunes) For what it's worth, if you -can- get Michelle Pfeiffer to model a latex daemon suit for the catalog, I strongly suggest you do. Breasts can sell anything. Shiny red latex body suits start religions. -- Brian McGroarty Now, who wants a _dragon_? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 08:38:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B138237B43F for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC7B44003 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18918; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:38:25 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:38:18 -0600 To: Bill Moran , Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> References: <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:38:42 -0000 At 09:31 AM 6/10/2003, Bill Moran wrote: >We could give him a pitchfork as well and many people wouldn't know the >difference! I'm beginning to wonder about the advisability of using a mascot with a trident given the recent goings-on in India. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 08:42:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC4B37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F082E43FAF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19PlH0-000CjY-Er; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:42:58 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:42:58 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:42:55 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:36:19AM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > For what it's worth, if you -can- get Michelle Pfeiffer to model > a latex daemon suit for the catalog, I strongly suggest you do. > Breasts can sell anything. Shiny red latex body suits start > religions. Yeah, but Jennifer Aniston is likely to get commits in more often. Perhaps. Maybe not. > Now, who wants a _dragon_? Bill does, but only a really badly drawn one with stick legs and an arm coming out of it's neck. I wanted a polar bear. A drunk polar bear. Hanging out with his mates. Or a C-list celebrity who has been out of work for a few years and who is prepared to sell his soul to us. Mainly because then we'd have a real person to play with and make do stupid things in the name of the project. It'd be fun, if not a little degrading. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 08:44:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A412537B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D2943FDF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19PlIG-000Ck1-IG; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:44:16 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:44:16 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:44:10 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 09:38:18AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder about the advisability of using a mascot with > a trident given the recent goings-on in India. Are you being serious? Why do I get a feeling this jokey thread is about to get very nasty very quickly... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 08:50:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C0837B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75D843FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8666EEB9; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 406BC20F21; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:50:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:50:00 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:50:04 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 04:42:58PM +0100 I heard the voice of Paul Robinson, and lo! it spake thus: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:36:19AM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > For what it's worth, if you -can- get Michelle Pfeiffer to model > > a latex daemon suit for the catalog, I strongly suggest you do. > > Breasts can sell anything. Shiny red latex body suits start > > religions. > > Yeah, but Jennifer Aniston is likely to get commits in more often. Perhaps. > Maybe not. Well, I'm not picky. Get Jennifer Aniston in a shiny red latex bodysuit. I could force myself to cope ;-} > I wanted a polar bear. A drunk polar bear. Hanging out with his mates. Yeah, but the SPCA would be down on us like a ton of bricks the first time we brought a polar bear and a trailer full of vodka to a major conference... > Or a C-list celebrity who has been out of work for a few years and who > is prepared to sell his soul to us. Mainly because then we'd have a > real person to play with and make do stupid things in the name of the > project. It'd be fun, if not a little degrading. Nah, we should spend money to get the best to sell their soul to us :) Maybe Jack Nicholson. The possibilities are endless. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:13:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969DD37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE41243FDD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5AGD3p20549; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:13:03 -0400 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:13:03 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030610121303.A20545@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Craig Reyenga , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 cc: Craig Reyenga cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:13:07 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > The problem with this is you are very soon running version 99 > (or 100, if you want it stable). ... > Nothing can kill a product faster than version bloat; witness > NetWare and Oracle. But MS Windows reached version 2000 some time back, and isn't dead yet. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:16:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6115237B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD7143FDF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5AGGmOg000965; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:16:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:16:48 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:16:51 -0000 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 04:42:58PM +0100 I heard the voice of > Paul Robinson, and lo! it spake thus: > >>On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:36:19AM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> >>>For what it's worth, if you -can- get Michelle Pfeiffer to model >>>a latex daemon suit for the catalog, I strongly suggest you do. >>>Breasts can sell anything. Shiny red latex body suits start >>>religions. >> >>Yeah, but Jennifer Aniston is likely to get commits in more often. Perhaps. >>Maybe not. > > Well, I'm not picky. Get Jennifer Aniston in a shiny red latex bodysuit. > I could force myself to cope ;-} >>Or a C-list celebrity who has been out of work for a few years and who >>is prepared to sell his soul to us. Mainly because then we'd have a >>real person to play with and make do stupid things in the name of the >>project. It'd be fun, if not a little degrading. > > Nah, we should spend money to get the best to sell their soul to us :) I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:17:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1C237B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FF3643FE3 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:17:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5AGHlOg000969; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:17:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE604AB.70905@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:17:47 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:17:49 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 09:38:18AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >>I'm beginning to wonder about the advisability of using a mascot with >>a trident given the recent goings-on in India. > > Are you being serious? > > Why do I get a feeling this jokey thread is about to get very nasty very > quickly... I sure hope not. The only reason I posted was that this thread promised to bring me out of my dark mood. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:18:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBED37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cvg-65-26-145-190.cinci.rr.com [65.26.145.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1130943FAF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5AGJCe3079192; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:19:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost)h5AGJB1D079189; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:19:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:19:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030610121752.L79065@www.bluecirclesoft.com> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:18:10 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Paul Robinson wrote: > > Now, who wants a _dragon_? > > Bill does, but only a really badly drawn one with stick legs and an arm > coming out of it's neck. > > I wanted a polar bear. A drunk polar bear. Hanging out with his mates. Or a > C-list celebrity who has been out of work for a few years and who is > prepared to sell his soul to us. Blossom's Mayim Bialik! Plus the breasts would help with the commit effect. > Mainly because then we'd have a real person > to play with and make do stupid things in the name of the project. It'd be > fun, if not a little degrading. -- Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) www.bluecirclesoft.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:22:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB2337B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B23143FE5 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:22:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30866EEB9; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 1811920F21; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:22:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:22:24 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030610162224.GD48926@over-yonder.net> References: <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:22:28 -0000 [ Do some CC trimming ] On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:16:48PM -0400 I heard the voice of Bill Moran, and lo! it spake thus: > > > >Nah, we should spend money to get the best to sell their soul to us :) > > I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. Well, yes, but there's WORK, and then there's _WORK_... I'm not sure she's looking for the kind of work we'd really wan... er, pay fo... er, profit fro... er.... well, hell. Good idea! -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:24:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6747F37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CB243FDD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:24:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19446; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:23:39 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610095342.03392690@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:23:27 -0600 To: Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:24:13 -0000 At 09:44 AM 6/10/2003, Paul Robinson wrote: >On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 09:38:18AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >> I'm beginning to wonder about the advisability of using a mascot with >> a trident given the recent goings-on in India. > >Are you being serious? Actually, in this case I am. Have you heard the latest? Militant Hindu groups are training kids as "warriors" against Muslims, Christians, etc. and presenting them with... tridents. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:26:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E8237B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D1D43FBF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19Plxf-000LWE-Ku; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:27:03 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:27:03 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE604AB.70905@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE604AB.70905@potentialtech.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:26:57 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:17:47PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > I sure hope not. The only reason I posted was that this thread promised > to bring me out of my dark mood. Just look at this picture again: http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/bears.jpg Feel better? Thought so. If not, or you want more, make some paper robots: http://www.robo-t.com/r-kata.html You know it makes sense. The FreeBSD project really should consider building some robots. Big ones. With lasers. So we can take over the world. Then Jennifer Aniston would have to work for us. She'd probably even help get SMP sorted. And libh. Yes, that's what we need - giant, killer robots. Let's get to work. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:30:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C1337B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E83F43FA3 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:30:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27386EEB9; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:30:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 334F720F12; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:30:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:30:53 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030610163052.GE48926@over-yonder.net> References: <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE604AB.70905@potentialtech.com> <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:30:56 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 05:27:03PM +0100 I heard the voice of Paul Robinson, and lo! it spake thus: > > The FreeBSD project really should consider building some robots. Big ones. > With lasers. So we can take over the world. Then Jennifer Aniston would have > to work for us. She'd probably even help get SMP sorted. And libh. Yes, > that's what we need - giant, killer robots. Let's get to work. How about sharks, with lasers on their heads? Or Laza tigers? Robots are so passe (and anyway, we don't have a single laser guidance system driver in -CURRENT). -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:34:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4179337B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E38E43FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:34:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5AGYeOg000977 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:34:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE608A0.1080403@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:34:40 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: I want to know the overall job outlook ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:34:42 -0000 I'm running around looking for work ... I'm not finding much, but I've only been at it a few days and I can't spend a lot of time before I have to make some decisions. My question is: How well are other folks doing in this job market? Is it so bad that I should take whatever I can get? (I've had one recruiter tell me this ... I don't want to believe it, but perhaps I should) I'm kind of in a situation where I have to make a decision faster than I can learn enough to be informed when I do so. Basically, any anecdotes or opinions are welcome. Anything is better than rolling dice to see what I should do. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:34:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AE037B405 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B6243F75 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:34:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19Pm5I-000LX7-3Q; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:34:56 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:34:56 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030610163456.GI26444@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610095342.03392690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610095342.03392690@localhost> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:34:48 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:23:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Actually, in this case I am. Have you heard the latest? Militant > Hindu groups are training kids as "warriors" against Muslims, > Christians, etc. and presenting them with... tridents. That's that then. Beastie must be disarmed! He's obviously a terrorist. He's not with us so he must be against us, and therefore is completely evil. In fact, I heard that Beastie was actually FRENCH! Quite simply, he must be stopped. Have you phoned the FBI Brett? I would if I were you - you don't know what he might get upto. I'd phone them myself, but you know, I'm not really that fussed. Hey, I tell you something else too, you never see Beastie and Osama Bin Laden in the same room together at the same time, do you? HEY? Know what I'm saying? Is there still a $25 million reward for capture? I think I've just thought of a plan to help the FreeBSD Foundation out... Brett, as a side-point, understand what you're saying, but this aint the thread to get serious. We're talking about degrading C-list celebrities and getting a party on with polar bears... you're not going to get much in the way of serious politcal debate here. Can I suggest a thread split? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:39:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3873C37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F79843FDD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5AGdvOg000981 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:39:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE609DD.9070503@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:39:57 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> <20030610162224.GD48926@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20030610162224.GD48926@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:39:59 -0000 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > [ Do some CC trimming ] > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:16:48PM -0400 I heard the voice of > Bill Moran, and lo! it spake thus: > >>>Nah, we should spend money to get the best to sell their soul to us :) >> >>I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. > > Well, yes, but there's WORK, and then there's _WORK_... I'm not sure > she's looking for the kind of work we'd really wan... er, pay fo... > er, profit fro... er.... well, hell. Good idea! Now that I think of it ... there's not much difference between a drunken polar bear and Anna Nichole Smith ... and I think we could get Anna Nichole cheaper ... -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:50:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213AE37B404 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47EE743FD7 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:50:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19PmKk-000Nrc-Vy; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:50:54 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:50:54 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20030610165054.GK26444@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE604AB.70905@potentialtech.com> <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610163052.GE48926@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610163052.GE48926@over-yonder.net> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:50:48 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 11:30:53AM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > How about sharks, with lasers on their heads? Too Austin Powers, and no good out of water. The FreeBSD marketing department tell me that 92.8% of the people we wish to destroy and/or mame don't live in water. Sharks might be a problem. > Or Laza tigers? Possible, but then they aren't capable of getting the 7.2% of our targets that do live in water. You know where I'm heading with this don't you? It's all coming together... Drunken Polar Bears with Laser Guns! They can go across land, under water, the whole thing! And how cool would THAT be! "Hey, Linus, nice threading there, but have YOU got a drunken polar bear with a laser gun? No? Well, FreeBSD has got LOADS of them! HA HA!". Yes, I can picture it clearly... it's all making sense. Even Microsoft would have to evacuate their campus when it got over-run with laser-touting polar bears... > Robots > are so passe (and anyway, we don't have a single laser guidance system > driver in -CURRENT). Do we have any cybernetic hookups ready yet? It's just I'd like to control the polar bears with a mixture of FreeBSD, beer and sealions (to eat). -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 09:54:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C657C37B404 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cvg-65-26-145-190.cinci.rr.com [65.26.145.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E88043FCB for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5AGtBe3079254; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:55:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost)h5AGtASH079251; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:55:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:55:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3EE608A0.1080403@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: <20030610123659.U79065@www.bluecirclesoft.com> References: <3EE608A0.1080403@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I want to know the overall job outlook ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:54:09 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Bill Moran wrote: > > I'm running around looking for work ... > > I'm not finding much, but I've only been at it a few days and I can't > spend a lot of time before I have to make some decisions. > > My question is: How well are other folks doing in this job market? Is > it so bad that I should take whatever I can get? (I've had one recruiter > tell me this ... I don't want to believe it, but perhaps I should) > > I'm kind of in a situation where I have to make a decision faster than > I can learn enough to be informed when I do so. Basically, any anecdotes > or opinions are welcome. Anything is better than rolling dice to see > what I should do. Seems to be picking up in the Cincinnati/Dayton area; of course, there is an AF base here. Lots more job postings, and lots more chatter about IT investing, esp. Linux/Oracle, in the crowds I navigate. But then again, why would I navigate crowds where they talk about Microsoft? Some FOAFs just got brought on as Java gurus at $90/hr apparently. I don't know how you're doing your search, but some general advice you may already know. If you're looking for work, this is definitely the kind of economy where you have to convince people to open a position for you. It was a rough adjustment for me, coming out of college in the second half of the '90s. :) It's not like people stop needing stuff, they're just afraid to spend. Even going door to door talking to owners has bang for the buck. If you do work with a recruiter, make sure they're proactive, because their existing accounts have probably already been squeezed to breaking. Marc. -- Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) www.bluecirclesoft.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 10:12:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F8B637B404 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E63443FA3 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:12:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk) Received: from caomhin.demon.co.uk ([62.49.21.186]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 19Pmfn-0003fs-0Z; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:12:39 +0100 Message-ID: <5NX6Q8C7Fh5+Ew$B@caomhin.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:12:27 +0100 To: Paul Robinson From: Kevin Golding References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610095342.03392690@localhost> <20030610163456.GI26444@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030610163456.GI26444@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:12:41 -0000 In article <20030610163456.GI26444@iconoplex.co.uk>, Paul Robinson writes >We're talking about degrading C-list celebrities and >getting a party on with polar bears... Surely you jest sir? Jennifer Anniston is better than the C-list, and no matter what your inbox may tell you I suspect she's never "partied" with any polar bears. Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 10:20:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB7D37B405 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D440B43FCB for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@pcnet.com) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mail.pcnet.com (8.12.8/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h5AHKDNc022383; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:20:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:20:19 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Paul Robinson wrote: > The FreeBSD project really should consider building some robots. Big ones. > With lasers. So we can take over the world. Then Jennifer Aniston would have > to work for us. She'd probably even help get SMP sorted. And libh. Yes, > that's what we need - giant, killer robots. Let's get to work. Yes, we need Sentinels! (lame X-Men reference) -- Dan Eischen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 10:27:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52CE37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4D143FBD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66C86EEB9; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 1E9A620F12; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:27:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:27:18 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Kevin Golding Message-ID: <20030610172718.GF48926@over-yonder.net> References: <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610095342.03392690@localhost> <20030610163456.GI26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <5NX6Q8C7Fh5+Ew$B@caomhin.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5NX6Q8C7Fh5+Ew$B@caomhin.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:27:23 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 06:12:27PM +0100 I heard the voice of Kevin Golding, and lo! it spake thus: > In article <20030610163456.GI26444@iconoplex.co.uk>, Paul Robinson > writes > >We're talking about degrading C-list celebrities and > >getting a party on with polar bears... > > Surely you jest sir? Jennifer Anniston is better than the C-list, and > no matter what your inbox may tell you I suspect she's never "partied" > with any polar bears. You're never too old to start. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 10:37:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B153537B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.packet.org.uk (public2-with1-3-cust50.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [80.5.52.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576D243FBD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd-x@packet.org.uk) Received: from xaphod by mailgate.packet.org.uk with local (Exim 4.20) id 19Pn3w-000DUh-ED for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:37:36 +0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:37:36 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030610173736.GA51472@packet.org.uk> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:37:40 -0000 * Paul Robinson [2003-06-10 16:02:24 BST]: · > If I had a call, I'd say we should get a polar bear as a mascot. Polar > bears· > are cool: http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/bears.jpg >· Cool, yep. Cuddly and cute, yep (from a distance). Plus, polar bears have never seen a penguin, but if they had they'd proabably call them lunch. A winner for sure. -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey Freelance FreeBSD Hacker (will work for bandwidth) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 10:47:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AE737B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc12.attbi.com (sccrmhc12.attbi.com [204.127.202.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F1F43FCB for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <200306101747530120099ko5e>; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:47:53 +0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:47:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: "Matthew D. Fuller" In-Reply-To: <20030610172718.GF48926@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: <20030610104534.J25465@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610095342.03392690@localhost> <5NX6Q8C7Fh5+Ew$B@caomhin.demon.co.uk> <20030610172718.GF48926@over-yonder.net> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:47:55 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 06:12:27PM +0100 I heard the voice of > Kevin Golding, and lo! it spake thus: > > In article <20030610163456.GI26444@iconoplex.co.uk>, Paul Robinson > > writes > > >We're talking about degrading C-list celebrities and > > >getting a party on with polar bears... > > > > Surely you jest sir? Jennifer Anniston is better than the C-list, and > > no matter what your inbox may tell you I suspect she's never "partied" > > with any polar bears. > > You're never too old to start. Not that I'd turn down an invitation to a Jennifer Aniston polar bear party, but I think you guys are out of date a bit. Jennifer GARNER is the girl of the hour, and given her demonstrated expertise in martial arts, I have a feeling that committer ... "motivation" would increase dramatically. :) -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 11:06:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B78B37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07A443FDD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5AI5t51093341; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:05:55 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6/Submit) id h5AI5rPM093338; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:05:53 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:05:53 +0300 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030610180553.GB91429@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i cc: Craig Reyenga cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:06:04 -0000 Hello, Terry Lambert! On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:47:05AM -0700, you wrote: > Craig Reyenga wrote: > > Perhaps all odd major numbers should be considered development versions. 5.3 > > would instead be called 6.0, to signify that it is ready for general use by > > everyone. HEAD would change to 7.0-CURRENT, and the process would repeat, > > with 7.0-RELEASE thru 7.N-RELEASE (with "N" being the last development > > version) until the tree is then ready for 8.0, which would be of course > > marked "stable." > > The problem with this is you are very soon running version 99 > (or 100, if you want it stable). > > Historically, BSD has used odd minor numbers as new features, > and even minor numbers as stabilization. > > This was broken with 4.4, but that was because of the lawsuit, > not through any poor intent on anyone's part. Which one? What is was about? Can you provide more info? -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 11:08:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C25C37B404 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4203E43FE3 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5AI8N51093404; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:08:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6/Submit) id h5AI8NIu093401; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:08:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:08:23 +0300 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Terry Lambert , Craig Reyenga , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030610180823.GC91429@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> <20030610121303.A20545@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610121303.A20545@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:08:30 -0000 Hello, Rahul Siddharthan! On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:13:03PM -0400, you wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > The problem with this is you are very soon running version 99 > > (or 100, if you want it stable). > ... > > Nothing can kill a product faster than version bloat; witness > > NetWare and Oracle. > > But MS Windows reached version 2000 some time back, and isn't dead yet. It was dead immediately after was born. Since 1.0 -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 13:31:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779E737B401; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.systems.pipex.net (colossus.systems.pipex.net [62.241.160.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF7A43F93; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@thuvia.org) Received: from dotar.thuvia.org (81-86-81-121.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.81.121]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD2416000234; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:31:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from dotar.thuvia.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dotar.thuvia.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5AKVIX8060082; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:31:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@dotar.thuvia.org) Received: (from mark@localhost) by dotar.thuvia.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5AKVIxF060081; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:31:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Message-Id: <200306102031.h5AKVIxF060081@dotar.thuvia.org> From: Mark Valentine Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:31:18 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20030610104425.G25465@znfgre.qbhto.arg> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 beta(5) 10/07/98) To: Doug Barton cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:31:23 -0000 > From: Doug Barton > Date: Tue 10 Jun, 2003 > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Mark Valentine wrote: > > I may just be wierd, but I believe that a 5.0 release should be considered > > "stable" in that there should be no significant issues to be worked out; > > any problems that surface AFTER the release (despite best effort testing) > > should be fixable with a patch release (e.g. 5.0.1). > > You're not only weird, you're seriously out of touch with general > software development models, and FreeBSD history. I'm very sorry to say you couldn't be more wrong on both counts. I only admit to the weird bit; I have this old-fashioned view that released software should work, and a long history of making it so. And as a FreeBSD follower since 386BSD+patchkit, I've adopted many of the good bits of the FreeBSD development model (and others) to help me do it! Later in my message I actually agreed with what the FreeBSD release team has done... I'm a strong proponent of incremental development and evolutionary delivery, and of avoiding extended major release cycles and long-lived development branches where possible, but you have to balance it all with meeting real world needs. Cheers, Mark. -- "Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich." "We're kind of stupid that way." *munch* *munch* -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 14:04:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0B537B41A for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1667043FAF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5AL4KuD027318; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:04:21 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5AL4Kbu027317; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:04:20 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5AL3kHh073328; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:03:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306102103.h5AL3kHh073328@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:01:30 BST." <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:03:46 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:04:23 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > syntax is everything. We should call him struct. Or compromise and call him > stru[c]t. Might give the wrong impression, you know, sticking the head in > the sand and all that. Perhaps suitable only for core. H0h0h0h0h0! Hmmm. I saw that. No problem. Really. Have a nice day and all that. We talk about this later. This year, next year; who cares? I have a long memory. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH PS: ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 14:14:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA4037B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B74F43F93 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5ALELuD027466; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:14:21 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5ALELsV027465; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:14:21 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5ALDdHh073467; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:13:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306102113.h5ALDdHh073467@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:50:54 BST." <20030610165054.GK26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:13:39 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: Bill Moran cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:14:24 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > > How about sharks, with lasers on their heads? > > Too Austin Powers, and no good out of water. The FreeBSD marketing > department tell me that 92.8% of the people we wish to destroy and/or mame > don't live in water. Sharks might be a problem. Hang on. A solution presents itself to me. 92.8% of people that I have a problem with (more or less) could have that problem solved at no fiscal detrement to them by my, er, fish pond! Sharks aren't the problem, sharks are (in) the solution! > They can go across land, under water, the whole thing! And how cool would > THAT be! "Hey, Linus, nice threading there, but have YOU got a drunken polar > bear with a laser gun? No? Well, FreeBSD has got LOADS of them! HA HA!". > Yes, I can picture it clearly... it's all making sense. Even Microsoft would > have to evacuate their campus when it got over-run with laser-touting polar > bears... Shark or Polar-Bear-With-laser? My money is on the bear until I can find a way to arm sharks. > > Robots > > are so passe (and anyway, we don't have a single laser guidance system > > driver in -CURRENT). > > Do we have any cybernetic hookups ready yet? It's just I'd like to control > the polar bears with a mixture of FreeBSD, beer and sealions (to eat). No pizza, chocolate and popcorn?? M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 14:19:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E4337B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C50343F85 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:19:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5ALJNuD027525; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:19:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5ALJNts027524; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:19:23 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5ALJOHh073551; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:19:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306102119.h5ALJOHh073551@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Kevin Golding In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:12:27 BST." <5NX6Q8C7Fh5+Ew$B@caomhin.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:19:24 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:19:46 -0000 Kevin Golding writes: > In article <20030610163456.GI26444@iconoplex.co.uk>, Paul Robinson > writes > >We're talking about degrading C-list celebrities and > >getting a party on with polar bears... > > Surely you jest sir? Jennifer Anniston is better than the C-list, and > no matter what your inbox may tell you I suspect she's never "partied" > with any polar bears. Nay, sire. Most verily doth Mistress Anniston please the eye, but forsooth! it must be told that she speaketh in that roughest of tongues, known as "Merkin". I draw thine eye to that most fair of maidens, who is called by Julia, fathered by Ormond, and whose very presence causes the most worthy of knights to falter. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 14:48:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1417C37B414 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2322D43FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:48:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1186EEB9; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:48:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id E198920F12; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:48:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:48:11 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Mark Murray Message-ID: <20030610214811.GK48926@over-yonder.net> References: <20030610165054.GK26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <200306102113.h5ALDdHh073467@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306102113.h5ALDdHh073467@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:48:16 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:13:39PM +0100 I heard the voice of Mark Murray, and lo! it spake thus: > > Sharks aren't the problem, sharks are (in) the solution! Sharks aren't part of the solution. Sharks are part of the precipitate ;) > Shark or Polar-Bear-With-laser? My money is on the bear until I can find > a way to arm sharks. And if you figure out a way to arm them, then you should be able to leg them too, so they can do everything the polar bears can! More, actually, since their primitive nervous systems make them less susceptible to shock, so they can fight longer and harder! > > Do we have any cybernetic hookups ready yet? It's just I'd like to control > > the polar bears with a mixture of FreeBSD, beer and sealions (to eat). > > No pizza, chocolate and popcorn?? Coca-cola. Polar bears love the stuff. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 14:51:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A92637B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38E843FAF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 19Pr1u-00082v-I5; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:51:46 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:51:46 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20030610215146.GA30509@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030610165054.GK26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <200306102113.h5ALDdHh073467@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030610214811.GK48926@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610214811.GK48926@over-yonder.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:51:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 04:48:11PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:13:39PM +0100 I heard the voice of > Mark Murray, and lo! it spake thus: > > > Shark or Polar-Bear-With-laser? My money is on the bear until I can find > > a way to arm sharks. > > And if you figure out a way to arm them, then you should be able to leg > them too, so they can do everything the polar bears can! More, actually, > since their primitive nervous systems make them less susceptible to > shock, so they can fight longer and harder! Ah yes, and since they can't get cancer, we should probably make them radioactive too. > > > Do we have any cybernetic hookups ready yet? It's just I'd like to control > > > the polar bears with a mixture of FreeBSD, beer and sealions (to eat). > > > > No pizza, chocolate and popcorn?? > > Coca-cola. Polar bears love the stuff. Yeah, I saw that on a documentary or something. I think David Arquette was in it. Ceri -- User: DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR? Iniaes: Sure, I can accept all forms of payment. -- www.chatterboxchallenge.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 15:19:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E00B37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (203-114-139-2.inspire.net.nz [203.114.139.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BCDC43F75 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 27709 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2003 22:19:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.184) by 203-114-136-5.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 10 Jun 2003 22:19:03 -0000 Message-ID: <3EE65961.6020505@outpost.co.nz> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 10:19:13 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Disinformation, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE604AB.70905@potentialtech.com> <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:19:08 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > The FreeBSD project really should consider building some robots. Big ones. > With lasers. So we can take over the world. Then Jennifer Aniston would have > to work for us. She'd probably even help get SMP sorted. And libh. Yes, > that's what we need - giant, killer robots. Let's get to work. I'd like to nominate this for "Most On-Topic FreeBSD-Chat Post Of The Month"! -- C. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 15:23:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71A337B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc13.attbi.com (sccrmhc13.attbi.com [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD5D43F85 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20030610222328016001jjr9e>; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:23:29 +0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:23:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Mark Murray In-Reply-To: <200306102119.h5ALJOHh073551@grimreaper.grondar.org> Message-ID: <20030610151642.R16934@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <200306102119.h5ALJOHh073551@grimreaper.grondar.org> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:23:36 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Mark Murray wrote: > Nay, sire. Most verily doth Mistress Anniston please the eye, but > forsooth! it must be told that she speaketh in that roughest of > tongues, known as "Merkin". I draw thine eye to that most fair of > maidens, who is called by Julia, fathered by Ormond, and whose > very presence causes the most worthy of knights to falter. Ok, I'm totally down with julia ormond... Legends of the Fall, Sabrina; and one of the most brilliant performances on film anywhere, Smilla's Sense of Snow. And yes, she's attractive, but we're not picking our latex daemonette on her speaking ability. If we were using that criteria, we'd choose Emma Thompson and get it over with. Doug (Seriously, picture Emma Thompson in latex... I know you're trying hard not to, but do it anyways) -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 15:39:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2097837B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.attbi.com (rwcrmhc12.attbi.com [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FC543F93 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003061022391201400acvs3e>; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:39:12 +0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:39:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Mark Valentine In-Reply-To: <200306102031.h5AKVIxF060081@dotar.thuvia.org> Message-ID: <20030610152545.S16934@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <200306102031.h5AKVIxF060081@dotar.thuvia.org> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:39:13 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Mark Valentine wrote: > > You're not only weird, you're seriously out of touch with general > > software development models, and FreeBSD history. > > I'm very sorry to say you couldn't be more wrong on both counts. I only > admit to the weird bit; I have this old-fashioned view that released software > should work, and a long history of making it so. Well, I don't disagree with that definition of "released software," but I think what we're discussing is actually the definition of "works." The problem we have with each new branch is that while we don't ever purposely ship something that we KNOW is broken, because the developer base is only a small percentage of actual FreeBSD users we can't certify that we KNOW it's NOT broken for sufficiently large combinations of hardware and user environments. So, we choose to release stuff that's in the best shape we can make it at the time, and (this is the novel bit), we actually TELL people, "Beyond this point there be dragons," so that when one comes up and flames their perky bottom, hopefully they'll be prepared. I was one of the people who protested most loudly about the previous 5.0 release schedule, since I felt that there were too many dragons, with too many sharp teeth. We delayed the release by over a year so that we could file as many of those suckers down as we could. We did "Developer Preview" releases, and tried everything we could figure out how to do in order to widen our field of victi^W I mean beta testers, without drawing in people who would be adversely affected by their own enthusiasm. But at some point, you have to ship the thing, or you'll never make it beyond the beta point. Now that we have a 5.0 in the field, we've used the feedback we received to greatly improve 5.1, and 5.2 is going to be even better than that. Meanwhile, we're still telling people to be careful, and we will be doing so for a while still. As for the rest of the world, I'm glad to hear that you're working hard to buck the trend, but you're well in the minority. The "real world" ships software that they know is broken, and worry about fixing it later. Everyone in the business knows that .0 releases suck rocks, and no one adopts them unless they have a lot of time on their hands, or a desperate need for new features. Saying, "I work hard to make the world other than it is" doesn't change the way it is, however laudable your pursuit. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 16:15:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A7E37B401; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 059F643F93; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:15:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@pcnet.com) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mail.pcnet.com (8.12.8/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h5ANFSNc017195; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:15:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:15:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <20030610151642.R16934@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:15:30 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Mark Murray wrote: > > > Nay, sire. Most verily doth Mistress Anniston please the eye, but > > forsooth! it must be told that she speaketh in that roughest of > > tongues, known as "Merkin". I draw thine eye to that most fair of > > maidens, who is called by Julia, fathered by Ormond, and whose > > very presence causes the most worthy of knights to falter. > > Ok, I'm totally down with julia ormond... Legends of the Fall, Sabrina; > and one of the most brilliant performances on film anywhere, Smilla's > Sense of Snow. And yes, she's attractive, but we're not picking our > latex daemonette on her speaking ability. If we were using that > criteria, we'd choose Emma Thompson and get it over with. Ok, nothing wrong with Anniston or Ormand (or Kate Beckinsale while we're at it), but how about Jue from The Animatrix: Final Flight of the Osiris. Since she's animated she might be less costly than the others, and she looks damned good in red. I think a scantilly-clad red-dressed sword-wielding Jue would be a good mascot. Perhaps with a beastie on her shoulder and ousting a penguin by prodding it with her sword. These low-quality screen shots don't do her justice: http://www.dvdrama.com/news.php?6446 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 16:32:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DC437B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A71F43FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:32:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24860; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:32:33 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610173113.01106280@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:32:28 -0600 To: Bill Moran , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3EE608A0.1080403@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: I want to know the overall job outlook ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:32:42 -0000 These days, your best bet is to sell your services directly to small businesses and end users. Most are in desperate need of help -- especially in setting up reliable servers and networks. Heck, I'm turning customers away and could use help.... --Brett At 10:34 AM 6/10/2003, Bill Moran wrote: >I'm running around looking for work ... > >I'm not finding much, but I've only been at it a few days and I can't >spend a lot of time before I have to make some decisions. > >My question is: How well are other folks doing in this job market? Is >it so bad that I should take whatever I can get? (I've had one recruiter >tell me this ... I don't want to believe it, but perhaps I should) > >I'm kind of in a situation where I have to make a decision faster than >I can learn enough to be informed when I do so. Basically, any anecdotes >or opinions are welcome. Anything is better than rolling dice to see >what I should do. > >-- >Bill Moran >Potential Technologies >http://www.potentialtech.com > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 17:47:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF4037B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sc013pub.verizon.net (sc013pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9038943FA3 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from [4.47.74.254] (port=5217 helo=europa) by sc013pub.verizon.net with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 19Ptlm-0003SY-Ei; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:47:18 -0500 Message-ID: <00fb01c32fb3$a1f7d110$6f64a8c0@europa> From: "Robert Clark" To: "Bill Moran" , "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw><3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk><3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk><3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net><20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk><20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:51:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:47:23 -0000 Nah, she'd make a better spokesperson for OpenBSD. Big Sloppy Debutante? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Moran" To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: ; "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:16 AM Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers > Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 04:42:58PM +0100 I heard the voice of > > Paul Robinson, and lo! it spake thus: > > > >>On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 10:36:19AM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >> > >>>For what it's worth, if you -can- get Michelle Pfeiffer to model > >>>a latex daemon suit for the catalog, I strongly suggest you do. > >>>Breasts can sell anything. Shiny red latex body suits start > >>>religions. > >> > >>Yeah, but Jennifer Aniston is likely to get commits in more often. Perhaps. > >>Maybe not. > > > > Well, I'm not picky. Get Jennifer Aniston in a shiny red latex bodysuit. > > I could force myself to cope ;-} > > > > >>Or a C-list celebrity who has been out of work for a few years and who > >>is prepared to sell his soul to us. Mainly because then we'd have a > >>real person to play with and make do stupid things in the name of the > >>project. It'd be fun, if not a little degrading. > > > > Nah, we should spend money to get the best to sell their soul to us :) > > I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. > > -- > Bill Moran > Potential Technologies > http://www.potentialtech.com > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 18:26:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C99F37B404 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CDC343FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:26:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5B1QYOg001200; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:26:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE6854A.60908@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:26:34 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610173113.01106280@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610173113.01106280@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I want to know the overall job outlook ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:26:36 -0000 Are you willing to let me pick your brain a bit? Brett Glass wrote: > These days, your best bet is to sell your services directly > to small businesses and end users. We have tried _very_ hard to do that. We've marketed directly at small businesses. The answer has generally been "not if it will cost us anything". We've tried marketing directly to home users. We passed out over 1000 door hangers (which is a lot of work, take my word) and got no serious response. Where exactly are you finding these businesses, and what are you offering them? > Most are in desperate need > of help -- especially in setting up reliable servers and networks. I agree. But all the ones we've come across are _still_ unwilling to pay anyone to fix the problem or improve the situation. One client turned down a server because there was no ROI that they could calculate (they are ignoring the possibility that their 6 year old server could die and cost them a fortune ... it's a risk they're willing to take) Another simply pretends that the problems aren't there. Others that have been our customers for a while don't have stability/reliability problems, and aren't willing to spend money to improve anything. I'd be really curious to know the people you're working with and the problems you're solving. The people we talk to are unwilling to spend any money, no matter how bad the problem. I wonder if I'm presenting my services to people in a less-than-optimum manner. > Heck, I'm turning customers away and could use help.... Any way I could help with that? > At 10:34 AM 6/10/2003, Bill Moran wrote: > >>I'm running around looking for work ... >> >>I'm not finding much, but I've only been at it a few days and I can't >>spend a lot of time before I have to make some decisions. >> >>My question is: How well are other folks doing in this job market? Is >>it so bad that I should take whatever I can get? (I've had one recruiter >>tell me this ... I don't want to believe it, but perhaps I should) >> >>I'm kind of in a situation where I have to make a decision faster than >>I can learn enough to be informed when I do so. Basically, any anecdotes >>or opinions are welcome. Anything is better than rolling dice to see >>what I should do. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 18:42:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C76637B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4679843FAF for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:42:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ericr@sourmilk.net) Received: from nutmeg (87.mercerville-33-34rs.nj.dial-access.att.net[12.94.173.87]) by mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12) with SMTP id <20030611014241112007ar6ue>; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:42:42 +0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:42:34 -0400 From: Eric Rivas To: "Daniel M. Kurry" Message-Id: <20030610214234.1a47d8ed.ericr@sourmilk.net> In-Reply-To: <20030610052338.GB14895@over-yonder.net> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <200306101412.18212.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030610005022.289b01b9.ericr@sourmilk.net> <20030610052338.GB14895@over-yonder.net> Organization: Sourmilk Products, Inc. X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:42:45 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:23:38 -0500 "Daniel M. Kurry" wrote: > Eric Rivas said something like: > > Does anyone else think it's a good idea that 5.1 should have been > > called 5.0.1, then once 5.x goes stable, start with 5.1? That way > > we keep consistent in that every x.0 version is considered > > development/test release. > > Don't we have -CURRENT precisely for channeling development? It's not really massive development per se, I mean there isn't any overly drastic changes. Anyway, it was just a thought, and I know we got rid of the second . in version numbers for a reason. I also understand why the current version scheme is the way it is, like I said, it's just a thought and I would be very amazed if anyone thought my idea was a good one. > > dan > > > -- > > Eric Rivas > > -- Eric Rivas From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 20:04:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF7B37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpg.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpg.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7905D43F75 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 22234 invoked by uid 50005); 11 Jun 2003 03:04:22 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtpg.ha-net.ptd.net by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.15 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4270. spamassassin: 2.43. Clear:. Processed in 0.679933 secs); 11 Jun 2003 03:04:22 -0000 Received: from du36.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.36]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpg.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 Sender: tms@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3EE63625.8B94FBAD@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:48:53 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> <3EE609DD.9070503@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:23 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:23 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:23 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:23 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:23 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:23 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > > Now that I think of it ... there's not much difference between a drunken > polar bear and Anna Nichole Smith ... I think you should apologize to polar bears everywhere for that comparison. Besides, polar bears don't drink; they prefer PCP (used as a tranquilizer before it became illegal). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 20:04:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C4037B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpb.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpb.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A7043FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:04:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19379 invoked by uid 50005); 11 Jun 2003 03:04:19 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtpb.ha-net.ptd.net by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.15 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4270. spamassassin: 2.43. Clear:. Processed in 0.675161 secs); 11 Jun 2003 03:04:19 -0000 Received: from du36.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.36]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpb.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Jun 2003 03:04:18 -0000 Sender: tms@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3EE63602.A1AA1ABD@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:48:18 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:21 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > > If I had a call, I'd say we should get a polar bear as a mascot. Polar bears > are cool: http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/bears.jpg Actually, they overheat easily, which is why they sprawl on the ice like that. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 20:04:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8AA37B404 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtph.ha-net.ptd.net (smtph.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30A543FB1 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 27769 invoked by uid 50005); 11 Jun 2003 03:04:24 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtph.ha-net.ptd.net by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.15 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4270. spamassassin: 2.43. Clear:. Processed in 0.76165 secs); 11 Jun 2003 03:04:24 -0000 Received: from du36.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.36]) (envelope-sender ) by smtph.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Jun 2003 03:04:23 -0000 Sender: tms@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3EE63652.21C8172B@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:49:38 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <3EE604AB.70905@potentialtech.com> <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610165054.GK26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:04:26 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 11:30:53AM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > How about sharks, with lasers on their heads? > > Too Austin Powers, and no good out of water. The FreeBSD marketing > department tell me that 92.8% of the people we wish to destroy and/or mame > don't live in water. Sharks might be a problem. Land shark. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 22:37:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8174D37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9201F43F75 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29296EEB9 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id C001A20F12; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:37:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:37:17 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Kurry" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030611053717.GC14895@over-yonder.net> References: <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> <20030610154416.GG26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE604AB.70905@potentialtech.com> <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030610162703.GH26444@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 05:37:21 -0000 Paul Robinson said something like: > > The FreeBSD project really should consider building some robots. Big ones. > With lasers. So we can take over the world. For further discussion of robots with lasers and FreeBSD, please continue this thread on freebsd-security, where it is more appropriate. dan, :-) > Then Jennifer Aniston would have > to work for us. She'd probably even help get SMP sorted. And libh. Yes, > that's what we need - giant, killer robots. Let's get to work. > > -- > Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 23:13:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093FC37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE7E43FCB for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:13:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0s4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.132] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19PyrN-0001bp-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:13:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE6C839.E8FAC454@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:12:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michal F. Hanula" References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030610112852.GK81410@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a447291927689ef7fe426bfb953d4549e5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:13:31 -0000 "Michal F. Hanula" wrote: > > started with the letter N". That, or "Steelypips", though > > "Trurl" does have "URL" in it... > > Where did ``Steelypips'' come from? Remind me of The Cyberiad, > but I've only read it in Czech, so it really shouldn't. The Cyberiad, English translation. It's also in the fortunes database on FreeBSD, because someone had taste. 8-). > (The machine that can make anything beginning with N is a good idea. We > could even force it to make Natrium if we had a latin locale) If it could make anything beginning with 'N' in any language, the it would be a machine that could make anything, since everything can be said to begin with 'N' in *some* language... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 23:32:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8FDA37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B82D43FBD for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:32:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0s4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.132] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Pz9k-0003lR-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:32:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE6CCA5.4B528893@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:31:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a478c07e41c9e96520ed7326548fe0f189548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:32:31 -0000 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Paul Robinson writes: > > Or we could be the entithesis of Darwin and change the name to RedneckOS. > > It's be popular in the Bible belt. > > That would require a change of mascot. > > http://www.milk.com/true-stories/unix_for_the_masses.html I typed in the URL, but it gave me an error: "The requested URL /true-stories/unix_for_them_asses.html was not found on this server." -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 23:49:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC3937B405 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B56643F75 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:49:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0s4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.132] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19PzQ4-00045R-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:49:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE6D095.3985D148@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:47:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass References: <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030610093729.0293cf00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e1f105c4d95ca150f8c6c35a550ac7e13ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:49:25 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:31 AM 6/10/2003, Bill Moran wrote: > >We could give him a pitchfork as well and many people wouldn't know the > >difference! > > I'm beginning to wonder about the advisability of using a mascot with > a trident given the recent goings-on in India. Something bad happen to one of our submarines, you say? -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 23:52:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A1137B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E587143F75 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:52:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0s4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.132] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19PzT2-0004Ox-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:52:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE6D14D.E970DCD0@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:50:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e1f105c4d95ca1503340a1aada11760993caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:52:33 -0000 "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 04:42:58PM +0100 I heard the voice of > Paul Robinson, and lo! it spake thus: > > I wanted a polar bear. A drunk polar bear. Hanging out with his mates. > > Yeah, but the SPCA would be down on us like a ton of bricks the first > time we brought a polar bear and a trailer full of vodka to a major > conference... Maybe we could get a POLA bear instead; at least then the SPCA wouldn't be surprised... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 23:57:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462D737B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E0843FD7 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0s4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.132] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19PzXb-0004nX-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:57:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE6D267.98AFA614@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:55:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030610121303.A20545@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e1f105c4d95ca15067bde2538977ef34667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Craig Reyenga cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:57:13 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > The problem with this is you are very soon running version 99 > > (or 100, if you want it stable). > ... > > Nothing can kill a product faster than version bloat; witness > > NetWare and Oracle. > > But MS Windows reached version 2000 some time back, and isn't dead yet. "That's not a version, that's a ship [date]". Windows is now smart enough to name things after ephemeral things that encourage upgrading. You'll notice NT never got to version 5. I've also observed that they have gotten away from attention grabbing failure indicators, and are now much more understated (it helps that they indicate the fault was in the application, rather than in the OS routine that the application called that didn't validity check its input parameters). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 23:58:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3241B37B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D71A43FA3 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:58:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0s4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.132] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19PzZ8-0004tZ-00; Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:58:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE6D2C6.2DDA4A89@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 23:57:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e1f105c4d95ca150fcdc3e6bc46568b8667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:58:42 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >>Or a C-list celebrity who has been out of work for a few years and who > >>is prepared to sell his soul to us. Mainly because then we'd have a > >>real person to play with and make do stupid things in the name of the > >>project. It'd be fun, if not a little degrading. > > > > Nah, we should spend money to get the best to sell their soul to us :) > > I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. FreeBSD is a volunteer effort; just how much latex do you think we can afford? -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 00:17:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB0637B401 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.it.ca (haggis.it.ca [216.126.86.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369C543F85 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: from haggis.it.ca (paul@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5B7H6VD007713 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:17:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: (from paul@localhost) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h5B7H6vH007711 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:17:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 03:17:05 -0400 From: Paul Chvostek To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030611071705.GA98519@mail.it.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: mybsd.com et al X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:17:35 -0000 I've had the domains mybsd.(com|net|org|biz) for a few years -- I registered them a few years back for a project for which the investors disappeared, and have held on to 'em since then in the hopes that something new would come up. But nothing has come up, and I hate to see such sweet names go to waste. Can anyone think of a good use for them? -- Paul Chvostek Operations / Abuse / Whatever it.canada, hosting and development http://www.it.ca/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 00:18:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D95437B404 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF29E43FDD for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:18:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0s4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.132] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Pzs0-0005x4-00; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:18:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE6D74E.37F72459@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:16:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexandr Kovalenko References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> <20030610180553.GB91429@nevermind.kiev.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4576274699084f7525a985e9dea39bc49548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Craig Reyenga cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:18:20 -0000 Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > Hello, Terry Lambert! > > Historically, BSD has used odd minor numbers as new features, > > and even minor numbers as stabilization. > > > > This was broken with 4.4, but that was because of the lawsuit, > > not through any poor intent on anyone's part. > > Which one? What is was about? Can you provide more info? The version 4.4BSD-Lite2 release from UCB had to introduce new code because of the AT&T lawsuit against BSDI and, later, UCB. The lawsuit was settled out of court around August-September of 1994, since USL was found to be in violation of both UCB's Copyrights and Licenses. Information is on Dennis Ritchie's web site, among other places, as well as other locations around the web. It's really old news (over a decade since it was originally filed now). This is why the BSD community isn't worried about the SCO lawsuit against Linux spreaqding to BSD. See also Greg Lehy's recent article in Daemon News. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 00:20:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A540C37B401 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED17743FBF for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 861F15310; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:20:44 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <20030610165054.GK26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <200306102113.h5ALDdHh073467@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030610214811.GK48926@over-yonder.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:20:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030610214811.GK48926@over-yonder.net> (Matthew D. Fuller's message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:48:11 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Bill Moran cc: Mark Murray cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:20:47 -0000 "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > Coca-cola. Polar bears love the stuff. Actually, polar bears prefer Pepsi. Don't you read Sherman's Lagoon? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 00:23:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE8137B401 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8436843FA3 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0s4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.132] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Pzxa-0000Yr-00; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:23:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE6D8A6.3AF47AF@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:22:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "T.M. Sommers" References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE63602.A1AA1ABD@mail.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e03dbb066415045ba8df27f029a02b65350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:23:57 -0000 "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Paul Robinson wrote: > > If I had a call, I'd say we should get a polar bear as a mascot. Polar bears > > are cool: http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/bears.jpg > > Actually, they overheat easily, which is why they sprawl on the ice like > that. Well known problem; they need to call "HLT" in their idle loop. I believe this is fixed in 5.x. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 00:28:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A992737B401; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC4943FBD; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:28:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 20DD25310; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:28:02 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Daniel Eischen References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:28:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Daniel Eischen's message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:15:28 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Doug Barton cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:28:05 -0000 Daniel Eischen writes: > Ok, nothing wrong with Anniston or Ormand (or Kate Beckinsale > while we're at it), but how about Jue from The Animatrix: Final > Flight of the Osiris. Guys, you are all so terribly misguided. Catherine Zeta-Jones is the one. She even comes from a country that has a huge red frigging *dragon* on its flag, how much cooler does it get? Unless of course we manage to get Wales to replace the dragon with a daemon. Oh, and in case you're wondering how she looks in red: http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/0819-osc/jonescat.her DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 02:50:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB1F837B401 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A28E43FDF for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 02:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5B9oX51030747; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:50:33 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6/Submit) id h5B9oUI0030744; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:50:30 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:50:28 +0300 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030611095027.GB93431@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <3EE58CF9.4090B7D3@mindspring.com> <20030610180553.GB91429@nevermind.kiev.ua> <3EE6D74E.37F72459@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE6D74E.37F72459@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i cc: Craig Reyenga cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:50:45 -0000 Hello, Terry Lambert! On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 12:16:30AM -0700, you wrote: > > > Historically, BSD has used odd minor numbers as new features, > > > and even minor numbers as stabilization. > > > > > > This was broken with 4.4, but that was because of the lawsuit, > > > not through any poor intent on anyone's part. > > > > Which one? What is was about? Can you provide more info? > > The version 4.4BSD-Lite2 release from UCB had to introduce new > code because of the AT&T lawsuit against BSDI and, later, UCB. > The lawsuit was settled out of court around August-September > of 1994, since USL was found to be in violation of both UCB's > Copyrights and Licenses. Information is on Dennis Ritchie's web > site, among other places, as well as other locations around the > web. It's really old news (over a decade since it was originally > filed now). This is why the BSD community isn't worried about > the SCO lawsuit against Linux spreaqding to BSD. See also Greg > Lehy's recent article in Daemon News. Ah, I see. I was thinking that it was some other case. About this one I know. -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 06:01:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D04037B401; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C7943FB1; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9DC0CDA9; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CBE6C5F; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:01:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: David Schultz In-Reply-To: <20030610095803.GB14407@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Message-ID: <20030611060041.U15094-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:01:07 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, David Schultz wrote: > Thankfully FreeBSD does not have a dedicated marketing department. > Apparently after Sun multithreaded its kernel and released Solaris > 2.0, people weren't willing to call it stable until 2.3 or so. It > will be interesting to see how FreeBSD does a decade later. > Performance aside, things seem to be looking pretty good so far. Solaris 2.3? Stable? You'll excuse while I die laughing now. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 06:32:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9400637B401 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5BF043FBD for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:32:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5BDH9Og001522; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:17:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE72BD5.6000504@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:17:09 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Chvostek References: <20030611071705.GA98519@mail.it.ca> In-Reply-To: <20030611071705.GA98519@mail.it.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mybsd.com et al X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:32:26 -0000 Paul Chvostek wrote: > I've had the domains mybsd.(com|net|org|biz) for a few years -- I > registered them a few years back for a project for which the investors > disappeared, and have held on to 'em since then in the hopes that > something new would come up. > > But nothing has come up, and I hate to see such sweet names go to waste. > > Can anyone think of a good use for them? Perhaps a site dedicated to BSD on the desktop? The .org could be for people to post stories, howtos, and screen-shots. Maybe some company would eventually pick up the .com and start distributing a "Desktop BSD" version of FreeBSD with support and everything ala RedHat. Although that'll probably have to wait till the economy gets off it's ass. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 11 09:58:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF8A37B401 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8786E43FD7 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:58:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7616EEB9; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 12:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 1001B20F21; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:58:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:58:13 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030611165813.GA30814@over-yonder.net> References: <000901c32eeb$4b15d4a0$0200000a@fireball> <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030610112852.GK81410@kyblik.pieskovisko.sk> <3EE6C839.E8FAC454@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE6C839.E8FAC454@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: "Michal F. Hanula" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:58:17 -0000 On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 11:12:09PM -0700 I heard the voice of Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > > (The machine that can make anything beginning with N is a good idea. We > > could even force it to make Natrium if we had a latin locale) > > If it could make anything beginning with 'N' in any language, > the it would be a machine that could make anything, since > everything can be said to begin with 'N' in *some* language... That's why multi-lingual support in an OS is so important. You think the Star Trek universe would have synthesizers if they only worked in English? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 06:30:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E3C37B409 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC77343FDD for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 06:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h5CDUYDk024730; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:30:34 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h5CDUUfg024724; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:30:30 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:30:30 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030610095342.03392690@localhost> Message-ID: <20030612162640.N24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:30:40 -0000 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:44 AM 6/10/2003, Paul Robinson wrote: > > >On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 09:38:18AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > >> I'm beginning to wonder about the advisability of using a mascot with > >> a trident given the recent goings-on in India. > > > >Are you being serious? > > Actually, in this case I am. Have you heard the latest? Militant > Hindu groups are training kids as "warriors" against Muslims, > Christians, etc. and presenting them with... tridents. > any non-fringe media reports? There is a (symbolic) reason why they might use tridents, except it doesn't bring up the image of an efficent modern weapon. > --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 11:09:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28EE37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE6043FBD for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:09:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5CI9uOg002251 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:09:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:09:56 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:09:58 -0000 Hey folks, I'm looking for holes in the docs to fill in. Trying to come up with a project to do. Please make some suggestions as to where you feel the docs are weak. One thing I feel is missing is a basic admin tutorial for newbies. I mean, the handbook covers installing and getting everything up and running, but once you're there you're lost. A lot of Linux folks seem to get lost (for example) figuring out how to get Apache to start automatically after it's installed. I'm guessing an explanation in the ports section of the handbook would help, what do others think? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 11:26:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039DE37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.giovannelli.com (freebsd.giovannelli.com [194.184.65.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D08243FBD for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from usul.giovannelli.it (usul.giovannelli.com [10.254.254.4]) h5CIVnsZ049287 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:31:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:28:58 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:26:58 -0000 I was a very happy RAV antivirus (by Gecad) user, a former free company that produced a very good, IMHO, antivirus. Http://www.ravantivirus.com Now RAV was acquired by Microsoft and they'll discontinue all the non Windows products. This is the email they are sending to the customer asking informations. >Thank you for your message. >GeCAD will fulfill all it's contractual obligations towards it's customers >and partners. >GeCAD will honour its obligations towards its customers. Therefore we will >continue to offer technical support, virus signatures, outbreak alerts and >advisories, triggered updates to all our customers, as usually. >The products will be discontinued soon after the acquisition and there >will not be any new version of the software. >However, GeCAD will honour its obligations towards its customers. >Therefore GeCAD will continue to offer technical support to all customers, >in English language. Virus Signatures, Outbreak alerts and advisories, >Triggered Updates, Statistics and Site Announcements will continue to be >available as usually. >Due to Microsoft acquisition of RAV IPR, our objective now is to gradually >withdrawn RAV product from the market. > >We aim to assure support (Virus Signatures, Outbreak alerts and >advisories, Triggered Updates, Statistics Site Announcements and Technical >Support) until the service expiration of present customers. However, no >improvements will be made to the present versions. > >GeCAD will fulfill all it's contractual obligations towards it's customers >and partners. > >Best regards, >If you have further questions, do not hesitate to contact us. Now I am looking for another antivirus product that work fine with sendmail-milter and FreeBSD. Is there anyone here that would share their experience with other similar products ? Thanks... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 11:35:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDE537B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594C243F75 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:35:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5CIZdOg002280; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:35:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE8C7FB.7040701@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:35:39 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:35:41 -0000 Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > I was a very happy RAV antivirus (by Gecad) user, a former free company > that produced a very good, IMHO, antivirus. > Http://www.ravantivirus.com > > Now RAV was acquired by Microsoft and they'll discontinue all the non > Windows products. > > This is the email they are sending to the customer asking informations. > > > Now I am looking for another antivirus product that work fine with > sendmail-milter and FreeBSD. > Is there anyone here that would share their experience with other > similar products ? I had a very bad experience with kaspersky for FreeBSD and swore that I would answer every question I saw like this by warning people away from Kaspersky. They sent us a product that didn't work with documentation that was incomplete and inaccurate. There was no tech support, and when we finally gave up and asked for our money back they basically started ignoring our calls and emails. On the flip side, we replaced Kaspersky with Sophos and it has been working wonderfully. Sophos likes to brag about being the fastest to respond to new threats and my experience with them validates that claim. It's also fast and reliable. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 11:47:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E978D37B405 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fep07.tmt.tele.fi (hank-fep7-0.inet.fi [194.251.242.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A2B43FBF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:47:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reko.turja@pp.inet.fi) Received: from reko ([62.71.30.51]) by fep07.tmt.tele.fi (InterMail vM.5.01.03.13 201-253-122-118-113-20010918) with ESMTP id <20030612184723.YMQA20115.fep07.tmt.tele.fi@reko> for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:47:23 +0300 From: "Reko Turja" To: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:47:25 +0300 Message-ID: <000301c33113$11359610$0a06a8c0@reko> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: RE: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:47:34 -0000 > One thing I feel is missing is a basic admin tutorial for newbies. I=20 > mean, the handbook covers installing and getting everything up and=20 > running, but once you're there you're lost. One thing I miss is setting up centralized CA for mail/apache etc. Don't know how other people would find that useful, but for me that has been a = bit of pain. -Reko From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 12:00:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D442337B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.attbi.com (rwcrmhc11.attbi.com [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD2443FBF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@employees.org) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.240.204.110]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003061219001301300akjkue>; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:00:13 +0000 Received: from intruder.bmah.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5CJ0D9c059408; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.bmah.org) Message-Id: <200306121900.h5CJ0D9c059408@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> References: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> Comments: In-reply-to Bill Moran message dated "Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:09:56 -0400." From: "Bruce A. Mah" X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1434636850P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:00:13 -0700 Sender: bmah@employees.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: bmah@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:00:15 -0000 --==_Exmh_-1434636850P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, Bill Moran wrote: > I'm looking for holes in the docs to fill in. Trying to come up with a > project to do. > > Please make some suggestions as to where you feel the docs are weak. Not sure if this is interesting to you or not, but my (incomplete) todo list for the release documentation is at: http://people.freebsd.org/~bmah/relnotes/todo.html Bruce. --==_Exmh_-1434636850P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5+ 20020506 iD8DBQE+6M292MoxcVugUsMRAlo8AJ9U9TCgiWOPQjwSJ2b82FdAY7XIGwCgn8/A MgJR8P3+CXYwYiR5A7yx65I= =c7zd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1434636850P-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 12:18:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3245137B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cecov.masternet.it (cecov.masternet.it [194.184.65.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BF943F85 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:18:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from usul.scotty.masternet.it (freebsd.giovannelli.com [194.184.65.139]) by cecov.masternet.it (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5CJL9NX025450; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:21:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612211700.02ecd2a8@194.184.65.7> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.7 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:21:10 +0200 To: Bill Moran From: Gianmarco Giovannelli In-Reply-To: <3EE8C7FB.7040701@potentialtech.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:18:44 -0000 At 12/06/2003, Bill Moran wrote: >Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >>I was a very happy RAV antivirus (by Gecad) user, a former free company >>that produced a very good, IMHO, antivirus. >>Http://www.ravantivirus.com >>Now RAV was acquired by Microsoft and they'll discontinue all the non >>Windows products. >>This is the email they are sending to the customer asking informations. >> > >On the flip side, we replaced Kaspersky with Sophos and it has been >working wonderfully. Sophos likes to brag about being the fastest to >respond to new threats and my experience with them validates that claim. >It's also fast and reliable. I have used sophos a lot before RAV, but I didn't like to much the following points: 1) the scanner has to be used with amavis, which was obviusly so far slow than the dedicated RAV engine. I think they have a dedicated smtp version, but I don't know if they support FreeBSD natively. 2) the upgrades are good for the single "ide" idea, but are a little pain when you have to change the entire database (monthly based) because you have to rely on manual procedure (sh scripts) to update it. But it was a lot of times ago, perhaps now things are changed. Can you explain how you use it ? Do you use amavis to do the wrapper ? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 12:35:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FC137B407 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B593E43FBD for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:35:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5CJZOV8031226 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:35:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5CJZOpv031225 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:35:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:35:24 -0500 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <3EE8C7FB.7040701@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE8C7FB.7040701@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:35:26 -0000 How does "antivirus mail filtering" differ significantly from spam filtering? Seems to me these two should be one and the same as "spam" is a form of malicious code. Teach a spam filter what the virus looks like and kill two birds with the same stone. All that seems to be lacking is easy updates to the spam/virus/worm rule database. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 12:35:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C8C37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC6A43FA3 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:35:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5CJZdOg002312; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:35:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE8D60B.4060907@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:35:39 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <5.2.1.1.2.20030612211700.02ecd2a8@194.184.65.7> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612211700.02ecd2a8@194.184.65.7> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:35:46 -0000 Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 12/06/2003, Bill Moran wrote: > >> Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >> >>> I was a very happy RAV antivirus (by Gecad) user, a former free >>> company that produced a very good, IMHO, antivirus. >>> Http://www.ravantivirus.com >>> Now RAV was acquired by Microsoft and they'll discontinue all the >>> non Windows products. >>> This is the email they are sending to the customer asking informations. >>> >> >> On the flip side, we replaced Kaspersky with Sophos and it has been >> working wonderfully. Sophos likes to brag about being the fastest to >> respond to new threats and my experience with them validates that claim. >> It's also fast and reliable. > > I have used sophos a lot before RAV, but I didn't like to much the > following points: > 1) the scanner has to be used with amavis, which was obviusly so far > slow than the dedicated RAV engine. I think they have a dedicated smtp > version, but I don't know if they support FreeBSD natively. Can't argue with you here. They have a dedicated SMTP version but it's very limited and acts as an open relay, thus can't be used in most configurations. The system I'm using this on is loaded lightly enough that Amavis doesn't cause us any problems. Even then, Amavis is much less load than running something like Spamassassin. > 2) the upgrades are good for the single "ide" idea, but are a little > pain when you have to change the entire database (monthly based) because > you have to rely on manual procedure (sh scripts) to update it. But it > was a lot of times ago, perhaps now things are changed. This can be worked around. We have automated scripts for nightly update and simply do the monthly manually (only takes about 15 minutes or so) but I can easily imagine that the monthly update could be scripted as well (although we haven't bothered). > Can you explain how you use it ? Do you use amavis to do the wrapper ? Yes. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 12:59:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5AE37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B405943F3F for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5CJwxOg002327; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:59:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:58:59 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <3EE8C7FB.7040701@potentialtech.com> <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:59:01 -0000 David Kelly wrote: > How does "antivirus mail filtering" differ significantly from spam > filtering? Seems to me these two should be one and the same as "spam" > is a form of malicious code. No, no, no. Not even close. While it may seem that way to an end-user, programatically it's very different. Bayesan matching is generally done for spam, as it seems to be the best approach. This involves checking for a LARGE number of conditions and assigning a percentage likelihood for each that it is indicative of spam. Once _every_ condition has been checked, the email is labeled spam or not based on the sum of the liklihoods of all matched rules. This is VERY cpu intensive. Searching for malware is simply a matter checking set of rules until a positive match is found. The first positive match terminates the search with a positive. There are no percentages and the nature of the search means that putting the most likely candidates at the beginning of the search will cause it to terminate more quickly in many cases since there's no need to check the rest of the possibilities. Additionally, searching headers for instances of malware is unreliable and is therefore not done. Additionally, certain mail (such as proper mail that is _all_ plain text) need never be searched at all since there is no way to embed malware in an email that is all plain text. > All that seems to be lacking is easy updates to the spam/virus/worm rule > database. I'm not having any difficulty updating the Sophos database on a daily basis. I don't understand where this statement originated from. p.s. I abhor the term "virus" as I haven't seen one in years. The horrible technical elegance of a true virus doesn't exist in the abilities of modern malware developers. Worms and trojans are the best they can do. And worms are often too difficult. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 13:01:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F4C37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.it.ca (haggis.it.ca [216.126.86.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94AA43FBF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: from haggis.it.ca (paul@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5CK0jVD084330; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:00:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: (from paul@localhost) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h5CK04xP083906; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:00:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:00:04 -0400 From: Paul Chvostek To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Message-ID: <20030612200004.GA9597@mail.it.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:01:17 -0000 On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 08:28:58PM +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > Now RAV was acquired by Microsoft and they'll discontinue all the non > Windows products. And this is how Microsoft contributes to the industry? ;-) > Now I am looking for another antivirus product that work fine with > sendmail-milter and FreeBSD. I've used /usr/ports/security/inflex in the past with great success, though these days the port is obsolete and may not work; you can find info at http://pldaniels.com/inflex/. The commercial variant is very nice indeed and can be found at http://www.xamime.com/. These days, I use my own scanner, which consists of a procmail-launched wrapper to /usr/ports/security/vscan/. You can even pay NAI a whopping $35 (at least that's what I was charged) for a licensed version if you don't want to filter out the license warnings yourself. I haven't released my procmail recipes and wrapper (they're kind of customized), but they shouldn't be too hard to duplicate. -- Paul Chvostek Operations / Abuse / Whatever it.canada, hosting and development http://www.it.ca/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 13:02:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85EF37B404 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D9E43F93 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19QYCU-00021o-00; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:57:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: David Kelly In-Reply-To: <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:02:25 -0000 On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, David Kelly wrote: > How does "antivirus mail filtering" differ significantly from spam > filtering? Seems to me these two should be one and the same as "spam" > is a form of malicious code. > > Teach a spam filter what the virus looks like and kill two birds with > the same stone. A spam filter can help. But a virus may be embedded in compressed files. A good anti-virus solution knows how to look at zip files, et cetera. I have a list of Email Virus Scanners and/or Spam Filters to run on the Mail Server at http://www.reedmedia.net/misc/mail/filters.html Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 13:19:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD1137B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.it.ca (haggis.it.ca [216.126.86.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826BD43F3F for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: from haggis.it.ca (paul@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5CKJLVD092593 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:19:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: (from paul@localhost) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h5CKJKTQ092591 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:19:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:19:20 -0400 From: Paul Chvostek To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030612201920.GA87120@mail.it.ca> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <3EE8C7FB.7040701@potentialtech.com> <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:19:52 -0000 On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 03:58:59PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > > p.s. I abhor the term "virus" as I haven't seen one in years. The horrible > technical elegance of a true virus doesn't exist in the abilities of modern > malware developers. Worms and trojans are the best they can do. And worms > are often too difficult. That's not entirely true. A virus spreads itself by infecting through a medium. The classic "Stoned" virus prepended itself to executables and once run, sat in memory waiting for filesystem calls to tell it where to find new executables or floppy MBRs to infect. The modern worm does pretty much the same thing, only its medium of infection is the email system rather than a filesystem. A virus is an infection of the software. A worm is a category of virus which ALSO infects the wetware. (And MLM schemes are purely a wetware infection.) Is an email worm that has additional functionality to spread itself over SMB network shares to writable executables still merely a worm? Would you catagorize it as one, or the other, or both? It's just symantecs. Er, semantics. ;) -- Paul Chvostek Operations / Abuse / Whatever it.canada, hosting and development http://www.it.ca/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 14:02:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC31237B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.packet.org.uk (public2-with1-3-cust50.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [80.5.52.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C29A43F75 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:02:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd-x@packet.org.uk) Received: from xaphod by mailgate.packet.org.uk with local (Exim 4.20) id 19QZCs-0008h3-Sf; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:02:02 +0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:02:02 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Message-ID: <20030612210202.GA32210@packet.org.uk> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: : Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:02:06 -0000 * Gianmarco Giovannelli [2003-06-12 19:28:07 BST]: > Now I am looking for another antivirus product that work fine with > sendmail-milter and FreeBSD. > Is there anyone here that would share their experience with other similar > products ? I prefer Exim with the exiscan_acl patch, so my experiences may not quite so relevant. But after a long look at quite a few products I selected a solution based on Sophos. I almost didn't as it didn't run as a daemon, but then I found this application called Sophie which used the Sophos libraries... Works a treat. -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey Freelance FreeBSD Hacker (will work for bandwidth) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 16:01:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCEC37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wonkity.com (wonkity.com [65.173.111.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DFFC43FBF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from wonkity.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wonkity.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5CN14Xk090752; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:01:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from localhost (wblock@localhost) by wonkity.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id h5CN14pq090749; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:01:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:01:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Warren Block To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: <20030612165752.O90700@wonkity.com> References: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:01:06 -0000 On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Bill Moran wrote: > I'm looking for holes in the docs to fill in. Trying to come up with a > project to do. > > Please make some suggestions as to where you feel the docs are weak. The Handbook section on ipfw could stand to be greatly expanded. A section with concrete examples would help. -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 18:07:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB3F37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1920643FDF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:07:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5D16uV8032628 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:06:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5D16uUj032627 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:06:56 -0500 (CDT) From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:06:55 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306122006.55906.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 01:07:03 -0000 On Thursday 12 June 2003 02:58 pm, Bill Moran wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > How does "antivirus mail filtering" differ significantly from spam > > filtering? Seems to me these two should be one and the same as > > "spam" is a form of malicious code. > > No, no, no. Not even close. > > While it may seem that way to an end-user, programatically it's very > different. > > Bayesan matching is generally done for spam, as it seems to be the > best approach. This involves checking for a LARGE number of > conditions and assigning a percentage likelihood for each that it is > indicative of spam. Once _every_ condition has been checked, the > email is labeled spam or not based on the sum of the liklihoods of > all matched rules. This is VERY cpu intensive. So what? If you are already pushing the message thru a spam filter then while you are at it and have the message in hand then run a malicious code check. If you are going to check for malicious code anyhow then it shouldn't ultimately take more CPU cycles to do it from the spam filter interface. No matter such malicious code is often hidden in .zip or .exe attachments. Simply look there too. I am not suggesting use of optimized-for-spam search techniques against malicious code, but optimized-for-code techniques from within the same framework. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 19:16:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B845837B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F32A43FB1 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5D2G1Og002507 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:16:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE933E1.9080503@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:16:01 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> <200306122006.55906.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> In-Reply-To: <200306122006.55906.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:16:05 -0000 David Kelly wrote: > On Thursday 12 June 2003 02:58 pm, Bill Moran wrote: > >>David Kelly wrote: >> >>>How does "antivirus mail filtering" differ significantly from spam >>>filtering? Seems to me these two should be one and the same as >>>"spam" is a form of malicious code. >> >>No, no, no. Not even close. >> >>While it may seem that way to an end-user, programatically it's very >>different. >> >>Bayesan matching is generally done for spam, as it seems to be the >>best approach. This involves checking for a LARGE number of >>conditions and assigning a percentage likelihood for each that it is >>indicative of spam. Once _every_ condition has been checked, the >>email is labeled spam or not based on the sum of the liklihoods of >>all matched rules. This is VERY cpu intensive. > > So what? If you are already pushing the message thru a spam filter then > while you are at it and have the message in hand then run a malicious > code check. If you are going to check for malicious code anyhow then it > shouldn't ultimately take more CPU cycles to do it from the spam filter > interface. > > No matter such malicious code is often hidden in .zip or .exe > attachments. Simply look there too. > > I am not suggesting use of optimized-for-spam search techniques against > malicious code, but optimized-for-code techniques from within the same > framework. I'm not getting what your point is here. Amavis and qmail-scanner already do this ... taking malware scanning and spam filtering into the same operation as a kind of wrapper. Trying to use malware techniques in (for example) spamassassin is impractical, just as incorporating spam filtering into Sophos would be impractical. Besides ... beyond the technique differences, the correct outcome is different as well. Emails containing malware should be quarantined immediately, and the user should have to beg the IT department if there is some reason he really wants to recieve that message. Emails IDed as spam should be sent on to the user with some sort of flag set to allow the user to use his local MUA to filter them if he prefers, or manually filter them or whatever. Additionally, you want to scan ALL emails for malware, so if something sneaks in off a floppy or something it doesn't run rampant throughout the company email system, while scanning outgoing emails for spam is simply a waste of CPU cycles. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 19:17:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2F737B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (mail.cruzio.com [63.249.95.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E99B43FA3 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brucem@cruzio.com) Received: from cruzio.com (dsl3-63-249-85-132.cruzio.com [63.249.85.132]) by mail.cruzio.com with ESMTP id h5D2HcRC023061; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brucem@localhost) by cruzio.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h5D3G5Up038663; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:16:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bruce R. Montague" Message-Id: <200306130316.h5D3G5Up038663@cruzio.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:17:40 -0000 Hi, re Hindu tridents, certainly only tangentially related to BSDism, but worth being aware of on general principle of knowledge of "loaded" symbols: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2929863.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2743881.stm http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030603/ap_on_re_as/hindu_summer_camps_2 "Home Minister Pradadi Lal Mordiya told the BBC the government's decision followed the regular distribution of religious tridents by Hindu hardliners..." The story re girls being "ordained" with tridents after martial training (as reported in the yahoo story above) seems to have recieved a fair amount of play... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 19:31:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BDB37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEE643FBD for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5D2VFtS076486; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:31:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3EE933E1.9080503@potentialtech.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> <200306122006.55906.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <3EE933E1.9080503@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:31:19 +0200 To: Bill Moran From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:31:21 -0000 At 10:16 PM -0400 2003/06/12, Bill Moran wrote: > Additionally, you want to scan ALL emails for malware, so if something > sneaks in off a floppy or something it doesn't run rampant throughout > the company email system, True. > while scanning outgoing emails for spam is > simply a waste of CPU cycles. False. You can be held liable (including criminal liability) if you could have reasonably prevented something like this, and chose not to. Moreover, the damage to your reputation for being known as someone infecting other people with viruses/worms/Trojan Horses/etc... could be incalculable. What is different about outgoing vs. incoming e-mail, with respect to viruses, is that you always want to inform the internal person that a message with a suspected virus was found, and you may (or may not) want to inform the outside people. In one case, the insiders are the recipients, in the other case, they are the sender(s). Also, if you catch all outbound e-mail, then you stop virus floods before they start (assuming they're recognized). -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 19:47:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DA837B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3492E43FAF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5D2lAOg002530 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:47:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE93B2E.4020309@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:47:10 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> <200306122006.55906.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <3EE933E1.9080503@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:47:14 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:16 PM -0400 2003/06/12, Bill Moran wrote: > >> Additionally, you want to scan ALL emails for malware, so if something >> sneaks in off a floppy or something it doesn't run rampant throughout >> the company email system, > > True. > >> while scanning outgoing emails for spam is >> simply a waste of CPU cycles. > > False. You can be held liable (including criminal liability) if you > could have reasonably prevented something like this, and chose not to. > Moreover, the damage to your reputation for being known as someone > infecting other people with viruses/worms/Trojan Horses/etc... could be > incalculable. Huh? Here you are saying that spam filtering is the same as malware filtering. Or, at least, that's the best I can understand what you've written. > What is different about outgoing vs. incoming e-mail, with respect > to viruses, is that you always want to inform the internal person that a > message with a suspected virus was found, and you may (or may not) want > to inform the outside people. In one case, the insiders are the > recipients, in the other case, they are the sender(s). Notifying senders is spam. Most newer malware sends emails with random "From" addresses, lifted from the users address book or elsewhere. If you send notifications to the "From" email, you're simply contributing to the spam problem. Unfortunate, but true. The only reliable way to notify the correct person is to parse the received headers for the originating server's IP and look up the abuse address for that machine and report to it. I use spamcop for that. Hell ... notifying recipients is usually spam. Most people don't care that the server blocked an infected email. Your boss might be impressed to get lots of emails showing what a good job your malware filter is doing, but if you need to do that for your boss to appreciate you, look for other work. > Also, if you catch all outbound e-mail, then you stop virus floods > before they start (assuming they're recognized). True. That's why you scan _every_ email for malware. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 20:14:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3752C37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2DC43F3F for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldt5g.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.244.176] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Qf1M-00000O-00; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:14:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE94155.EE5D37F0@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:13:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a457be5b7fea7b489ccacfd1ced88e81ff350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 03:14:37 -0000 Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > Now I am looking for another antivirus product that work fine with > sendmail-milter and FreeBSD. > Is there anyone here that would share their experience with other similar > products ? I really like Sophos. McAffee also did a deal with Whistle/IBM at one point, for doing this on the InterJet. I don't know if they ever completed the code, or what happened with that. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 20:45:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD1B37B404 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E3C43FA3 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldt5g.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.244.176] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19QfVV-000601-00; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:45:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE948A0.F6661BB7@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:44:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> <200306122006.55906.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b28056ef2317566d93c8a3461302580aa7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 03:45:45 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:16 PM -0400 2003/06/12, Bill Moran wrote: > > while scanning outgoing emails for spam is > > simply a waste of CPU cycles. > > False. You can be held liable (including criminal liability) if > you could have reasonably prevented something like this, and chose > not to. I wish someone would apply this logic to SubSeven and the holes in Windows products that permit it to spread. What, it doesn't apply in that case? Why not? Tell me so I can contrive an example where it doesn't apply to the case you claim it applies to here... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 21:19:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD7437B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cecov.masternet.it (cecov.masternet.it [194.184.65.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429AD43FAF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:19:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from usul.scotty.masternet.it (freebsd.giovannelli.com [194.184.65.139]) by cecov.masternet.it (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5D4MDNX027572; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:22:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030613061832.03bab008@194.184.65.7> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.7 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:22:15 +0200 To: Terry Lambert From: Gianmarco Giovannelli In-Reply-To: <3EE94155.EE5D37F0@mindspring.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:19:48 -0000 At 12/06/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > Now I am looking for another antivirus product that work fine with > > sendmail-milter and FreeBSD. > > Is there anyone here that would share their experience with other similar > > products ? > >I really like Sophos. McAffee also did a deal with Whistle/IBM >at one point, for doing this on the InterJet. I don't know if >they ever completed the code, or what happened with that. I am not looking for a simple antivirus but a very quick and fast, if possible, product specified for mailservers. Sophos should use amavis, which usually loose some msg (you have to re-queue from time to time) :-). So far I don't have find any, perhaps kaspersky is the only one that develops such type of product natively for FreeBSD ? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 23:27:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708D737B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound02.telus.net [199.185.220.221]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991D343FAF for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:27:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from njamn8or ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.netESMTP <20030613062738.VGKY23920.priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.net@njamn8or>; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:27:38 -0600 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:27:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@njamn8or.no-ip.org To: Narvi In-Reply-To: <20030612162640.N24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-ID: <20030612213152.I26939@njamn8or.no-ip.org> References: <20030612162640.N24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:27:39 -0000 On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Narvi wrote: > > Actually, in this case I am. Have you heard the latest? Militant > > Hindu groups are training kids as "warriors" against Muslims, > > Christians, etc. and presenting them with... tridents. > > > > any non-fringe media reports? There is a (symbolic) reason why they might > use tridents, except it doesn't bring up the image of an efficent modern > weapon. Various Hindu milita groups have been carrying them as symbols equivalent to the Sikh kirpan knives at least since the Sikh massacres in the 80's if not before. I haven't heard of any dramatic new developments, someone in the media may just have dredged up reports of these groups to provide cheap copy. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 12 23:45:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4005A37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90EDD43FB1 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj4h.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.145] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19QiIy-0006bk-00; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:44:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE972A2.320F7908@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:43:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <5.2.1.1.2.20030613061832.03bab008@194.184.65.7> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a45f7d571eba6d042fe580934c04ee523f667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:45:02 -0000 Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 12/06/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > > Now I am looking for another antivirus product that work fine with > > > sendmail-milter and FreeBSD. > > > Is there anyone here that would share their experience with other similar > > > products ? > > > >I really like Sophos. McAffee also did a deal with Whistle/IBM > >at one point, for doing this on the InterJet. I don't know if > >they ever completed the code, or what happened with that. > > I am not looking for a simple antivirus but a very quick and fast, if > possible, product specified for mailservers. > Sophos should use amavis, which usually loose some msg (you have to > re-queue from time to time) :-). I wrote my own code for Sophos which used milter directly. It's not hard to write a milter filter. IBM owns the code, or I'd still have a copy, and I'd send it to you. I'm sure it's rotting on an optical disk somewhere, along with pmta (POP Mail Transfer Agent), which not only kicks Fetchmail's butt, but at 22,000 lines of code, includes an implementation of much of Java, JavaX, and the JavaMail API's all in C++ instead of Java. This was all done for a mail services project that wasn't completed before IBM shut IBM GSB down. 8-(. > So far I don't have find any, perhaps kaspersky is the only one that > develops such type of product natively for FreeBSD ? No, as I said, we had binaries for FreeBSD for McAfee. Like Oracle, McAfee has FreeBSD native versions of their code, they just don't sell them commercially. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 00:00:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F9537B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B1F43F85 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mw@theatre.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id JAA11689; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:00:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from theatre.lan (localhost.lan [127.0.0.1]) by theatre.lan (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5D6rXqw018814; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:53:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mw@theatre.lan) Received: (from mw@localhost) by theatre.lan (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5D6rVpr018813; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:53:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:53:31 +0200 From: Martin Welk To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030613065331.GA93081@theatre.lan> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:00:18 -0000 Hi, nobody mentioned the "AntiVir" product series - it comes from a german company called H+B EDV Datentechnik GmbH (http://www.antivir.de/ - yes, they have english language web pages :) ) and they offer several versions of virus scanners for the file system and for e-mail, and they offer it for a couple of operating systems and there's a version for FreeBSD. Most of the software is freely downloadable for trial purpose, and some is even free for private usage. Any opinions about technical aspects? I'm in now way related to that company nor do I use the products yet. Regards, Martin -- ,,Oh, there's a lot of opportunities, if you're knowing to take them, you know, there's a lot of opportunities, if there aren't you can make them, make or break them!'' (Tennant/Lowe) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 00:16:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8DF37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8151543FA3 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:16:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj4h.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.145] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Qino-0003C3-00; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:16:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:15:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Viktor Lazlo References: <20030612162640.N24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20030612213152.I26939@njamn8or.no-ip.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b7291230edde863f6123a0ddb569dce3a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:16:59 -0000 Viktor Lazlo wrote: > > > Actually, in this case I am. Have you heard the latest? Militant > > > Hindu groups are training kids as "warriors" against Muslims, > > > Christians, etc. and presenting them with... tridents. > > > > > > > any non-fringe media reports? There is a (symbolic) reason why they might > > use tridents, except it doesn't bring up the image of an efficent modern > > weapon. > > Various Hindu milita groups have been carrying them as symbols equivalent > to the Sikh kirpan knives at least since the Sikh massacres in the 80's if > not before. I haven't heard of any dramatic new developments, someone in > the media may just have dredged up reports of these groups to provide > cheap copy. They are not technically tridents. They are a symbol of the Hindu god Vishnu. The news report from Reuters, which was echoed by Yahoo, incorrectly confuses Vishnu with Shiva, and calls Vishnu "god of destruction" (as opposed to Shiva, who is also known as "Shiva The Destroyer"). The three tines represent creation, destruction, and rebirth. Philosophically, this has nothing to do with the ancient mediterranean gods "Poseidon" or "Neptune", depending on you being, respectively, an ancient Greek or an ancient Roman, who was god of the sea and of earthquakes. The original purpose of the trident was for the spearing of fish -- it was the ancient equivalent of a fishing pole (hence the association with sea gods). The trident was never really a weapon of war; instead, it was used as a weapon in gladitorial combat, shortly after the introduction of the Circus Maximus; like the short sword (a "gladius", from which "gladiator" is derived), it was not very efficient as a weapon, since, like the gladius, it was really intended to provide a prolonged battle (oh yes, the modern word "circus" derives from the central Rome arena "Circus Maximus", but I don't see anyone suggesting that Ringling Brothers & Barnum and Bailey rename their show!). FWIW, the trident was only one of three weapons given to a specific type of gladiator called a "Retarius". The other two were a net and a dagger. When a killing blow was called for (a "thumbs up" meant "death" and a "thumbs down" meant "mercy"; the modern "thumbs up" originated from aviation ground crews in WW I being unable to OK a checklist verbally over noisy engines), it was the dagger that was used -- surprise: 7-8 foot pointy sticks are generally not useful in the necessary close combat). I always like to think of the BSD Daemon's trident being used to keep trouble at a distance, as the trident was used in gladatorial combat to keep the enemy at a distance until they could be snared with the net and finished off (if necessary) with the dagger. I guess you could also make a case for a fishing metaphor, too, particularly for, say, the early lpd, which trolled a spool directory looking for files to write to the printer device. Of course, you needn't take my word for it: I'm sure this is all out there on the Internet somewhere. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 02:13:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727E537B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CAF43F85 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 19Qkd9-0002WI-Pi; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:13:55 +0100 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:13:55 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030613091355.GB9626@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Bill Moran , chat@freebsd.org References: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:13:57 -0000 On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 02:09:56PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > Hey folks, > > I'm looking for holes in the docs to fill in. Trying to come up with a > project to do. http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/handbook3.html > One thing I feel is missing is a basic admin tutorial for newbies. I mean, > the handbook covers installing and getting everything up and running, but > once you're there you're lost. A lot of Linux folks seem to get lost > (for example) figuring out how to get Apache to start automatically after > it's installed. I'm guessing an explanation in the ports section of the > handbook would help, what do others think? That's done by the port, isn't it? Ceri -- User: DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR? Iniaes: Sure, I can accept all forms of payment. -- www.chatterboxchallenge.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 03:54:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C8437B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 03:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0023F43FB1 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 03:54:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5DAsg1f015357; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:54:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5DAsgmK015356; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:54:42 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5DAsaHh008904; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:54:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306131054.h5DAsaHh008904@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:15:41 PDT." <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:54:36 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:54:45 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > (a "thumbs up" meant "death" and a "thumbs down" meant "mercy"; Other way round. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 04:00:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8C437B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7897443F3F for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951BA3D28; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:00:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Mark Murray Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:00:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EE97690.19879.5468C4@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200306131054.h5DAsaHh008904@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: Your message of "Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:15:41 PDT." <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:00:34 -0000 On 13 Jun 2003 at 11:54, Mark Murray wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > (a "thumbs up" meant "death" and a "thumbs down" meant "mercy"; This is the original meaning. > Other way round. This is what it has come to mean lately. A google: thumbs up death roman gladiator http://slate.msn.com/id/2080812/ Actually it appears historians are divided on which signal meant what. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 04:02:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E0537B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52AE443FAF for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:02:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19QmKi-000Hym-09; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:03:00 +0100 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:02:59 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Mark Murray Message-ID: <20030613110259.GY20204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> <200306131054.h5DAsaHh008904@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306131054.h5DAsaHh008904@grimreaper.grondar.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:02:59 -0000 On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 11:54:36AM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > (a "thumbs up" meant "death" and a "thumbs down" meant "mercy"; > > Other way round. Hate to get into a bitch-slapping fight here, but Terry is right. The modern thing with thumbs-up meaning "good" doesn't translate directly to the Roman era. It's well established in historian circles, pretty much every Roman historian who is considered credible etc., all agree - thumbs up meant death, and thumbs down meant mercy. I can find references if you really want, but I'm sure you know how to use a library. :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 04:21:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9AE937B404 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.packet.org.uk (public2-with1-3-cust50.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [80.5.52.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCB143FBD for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd-x@packet.org.uk) Received: from xaphod by mailgate.packet.org.uk with local (Exim 4.20) id 19QmcW-0000VL-2k; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:21:24 +0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:21:24 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey To: Mark Murray Message-ID: <20030613112124.GA1513@packet.org.uk> References: <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> <200306131054.h5DAsaHh008904@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306131054.h5DAsaHh008904@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:21:27 -0000 * Mark Murray [2003-06-13 11:56:05 BST]: > Terry Lambert writes: > > (a "thumbs up" meant "death" and a "thumbs down" meant "mercy"; > > Other way round. The way it was explained to me was the thumb was a sort of mime representation of a dagger. So it's fairly obvious that thumbs-down represents "sheath your dagger", and thumbs-up meant "have some". This may seem contrary to the modern usage, but on reflection the meaning is still the same. Thumbs-up indicating positive, Thumbs-down indicating negative. It's simply that modern society isn't quite a blood-thirsty as the Romans, and so we've reversed our assumptions - we assume gladiators were asking the question "do I let him live", whereas they were really asking "do I kill him". -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey Freelance FreeBSD Hacker (will work for bandwidth) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 04:29:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D70737B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.duth.gr (mail.duth.gr [192.108.114.110]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E80743FBF for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 04:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Received: from trinity.cc.duth.gr (trinity.cc.duth.gr [193.92.222.42]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.duth.gr (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h5DBTTBw045923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-DSS-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:29:31 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:29:29 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis To: Martin Welk Message-Id: <20030613142929.7ec180db.kkonstan@duth.gr> In-Reply-To: <20030613065331.GA93081@theatre.lan> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <20030613065331.GA93081@theatre.lan> Organization: I've heard of it X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: gmarco@giovannelli.it Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:29:41 -0000 On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:53:31 +0200 Martin Welk wrote: > Hi, > > nobody mentioned the "AntiVir" product series - it comes from a german > company called H+B EDV Datentechnik GmbH (http://www.antivir.de/ - yes, > they have english language web pages :) ) and they offer several > versions of virus scanners for the file system and for e-mail, > and they offer it for a couple of operating systems and there's a > version for FreeBSD. Most of the software is freely downloadable > for trial purpose, and some is even free for private usage. And noone mentioned Clam AntiVirus (http://clamav.elektrapro.com/) It's in the ports - I 'discovered' it a few days ago and have been playing around with it. It is GPLed code, promises up to date virus databases, provides a daemon that automatically downloads signed updates over the net, and is quite fast. They're working on a sendmail-milter currently, I'd like to try that some time. Considering the cost of the alternatives, this is the only option I can consider. Has anyone tried it? -kkonstan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 05:29:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD2637B437 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 05:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CD643FCB for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 05:29:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5DCTg1f069279; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:29:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5DCTgU5069278; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:29:42 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5DCQ4Hh009716; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:26:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306131226.h5DCQ4Hh009716@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:02:59 BST." <20030613110259.GY20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:26:04 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:29:45 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > Hate to get into a bitch-slapping fight here, but Terry is right. The modern > thing with thumbs-up meaning "good" doesn't translate directly to the Roman > era. It's well established in historian circles, pretty much every Roman > historian who is considered credible etc., all agree - thumbs up meant > death, and thumbs down meant mercy. I guess my Latin teacher was wrong, then :-) M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 05:30:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3995D37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 05:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [193.197.184.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EEA43FBF for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 05:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with gbsmtp id 19Qnhf-00057v-05; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:30:47 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5DBWdih065111 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:32:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5DBWdtu065110 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:32:39 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:32:38 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Another evil patent X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:30:50 -0000 This just cracks me up. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,485,773.WKU.&OS=PN/6,485,773&RS=PN/6,485,773 "This invention regards a dietary supplement formulation that significantly improves the taste of the male ejaculate." -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 06:00:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD6A37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC5543FAF for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5DD0kOg002812; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:00:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE9CAFE.5000402@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:00:46 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <5.2.1.1.2.20030613061832.03bab008@194.184.65.7> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030613061832.03bab008@194.184.65.7> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:00:49 -0000 Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 12/06/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >> > Now I am looking for another antivirus product that work fine with >> > sendmail-milter and FreeBSD. >> > Is there anyone here that would share their experience with other >> similar >> > products ? >> >> I really like Sophos. McAffee also did a deal with Whistle/IBM >> at one point, for doing this on the InterJet. I don't know if >> they ever completed the code, or what happened with that. > > I am not looking for a simple antivirus but a very quick and fast, if > possible, product specified for mailservers. Sophos products do this. > Sophos should use amavis, which usually loose some msg (you have to > re-queue from time to time) :-). I have never seen this. Been running Amavis for over a year and never had a complaint of lost messages. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 06:19:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E22537B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA0343F93 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5DDJWOg002821 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:19:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE9CF64.4090504@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:19:32 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030612162640.N24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20030612213152.I26939@njamn8or.no-ip.org> <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:19:34 -0000 You're quite the historian, Terry. My understanding, however, of the use of the "trident" with the Beastie is that it's not a trident but a "fork", with the obvious play on words in mind. Obviously, for t-shirts and other representations to be viewable at a distance, an eating- sized fork was not large enough, thus a pitchfork was used. The pitchfork was stylized in such a way that modern representations look more like a trident (probably unfortunate for those who apply great significance to symbols). So, if someone claims that the Beastie has some negative symbology because he's carrying a trident, simply explain that it's only a fork, and refer them to the proper man page. Terry Lambert wrote: > > They are not technically tridents. They are a symbol of the > Hindu god Vishnu. The news report from Reuters, which was > echoed by Yahoo, incorrectly confuses Vishnu with Shiva, and > calls Vishnu "god of destruction" (as opposed to Shiva, who > is also known as "Shiva The Destroyer"). > > The three tines represent creation, destruction, and rebirth. > > Philosophically, this has nothing to do with the ancient > mediterranean gods "Poseidon" or "Neptune", depending on you > being, respectively, an ancient Greek or an ancient Roman, > who was god of the sea and of earthquakes. > > The original purpose of the trident was for the spearing of > fish -- it was the ancient equivalent of a fishing pole (hence > the association with sea gods). > > The trident was never really a weapon of war; instead, it was > used as a weapon in gladitorial combat, shortly after the > introduction of the Circus Maximus; like the short sword (a > "gladius", from which "gladiator" is derived), it was not very > efficient as a weapon, since, like the gladius, it was really > intended to provide a prolonged battle (oh yes, the modern word > "circus" derives from the central Rome arena "Circus Maximus", > but I don't see anyone suggesting that Ringling Brothers & > Barnum and Bailey rename their show!). > > FWIW, the trident was only one of three weapons given to a > specific type of gladiator called a "Retarius". The other two > were a net and a dagger. When a killing blow was called for > (a "thumbs up" meant "death" and a "thumbs down" meant "mercy"; > the modern "thumbs up" originated from aviation ground crews in > WW I being unable to OK a checklist verbally over noisy engines), > it was the dagger that was used -- surprise: 7-8 foot pointy > sticks are generally not useful in the necessary close combat). > > I always like to think of the BSD Daemon's trident being used to > keep trouble at a distance, as the trident was used in gladatorial > combat to keep the enemy at a distance until they could be snared > with the net and finished off (if necessary) with the dagger. I > guess you could also make a case for a fishing metaphor, too, > particularly for, say, the early lpd, which trolled a spool > directory looking for files to write to the printer device. > > Of course, you needn't take my word for it: I'm sure this is all > out there on the Internet somewhere. > > -- Terry > > -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 06:26:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA3537B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F8943F3F for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 06:26:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5DDQqOg002825; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:26:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE9D11C.1040008@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:26:52 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ceri Davies References: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> <20030613091355.GB9626@submonkey.net> In-Reply-To: <20030613091355.GB9626@submonkey.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:26:54 -0000 Ceri Davies wrote: > On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 02:09:56PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: >>One thing I feel is missing is a basic admin tutorial for newbies. I mean, >>the handbook covers installing and getting everything up and running, but >>once you're there you're lost. A lot of Linux folks seem to get lost >>(for example) figuring out how to get Apache to start automatically after >>it's installed. I'm guessing an explanation in the ports section of the >>handbook would help, what do others think? > > That's done by the port, isn't it? Most ports these days install a sample script in /usr/local/etc/rc.d (although this doesn't seem to be 100% consistent) The apache.sh.sample must be renamed before it'll do anything at boot. If you're new to FreeBSD, this can be annoying and the documentation on how to handle this doesn't seem to jump out from anywhere. The ports section of the handbook doesn't mention it. I've got an update to the handbook I'm going to submit some time today that I think will improve this. I've heard of lots of people putting 'apachectl start' in their rc.conf file because they couldn't figure out the proper way to do this. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 07:14:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2091D37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBF643FDF for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:14:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 19QpKM-0003DU-TB; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:14:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:14:50 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030613141450.GA12355@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Bill Moran , chat@freebsd.org References: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> <20030613091355.GB9626@submonkey.net> <3EE9D11C.1040008@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE9D11C.1040008@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:14:53 -0000 On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 09:26:52AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > Ceri Davies wrote: > >On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 02:09:56PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > >>One thing I feel is missing is a basic admin tutorial for newbies. I > >>mean, > >>the handbook covers installing and getting everything up and running, but > >>once you're there you're lost. A lot of Linux folks seem to get lost > >>(for example) figuring out how to get Apache to start automatically after > >>it's installed. I'm guessing an explanation in the ports section of the > >>handbook would help, what do others think? > > > >That's done by the port, isn't it? > > Most ports these days install a sample script in /usr/local/etc/rc.d > (although this doesn't seem to be 100% consistent) The apache.sh.sample must > be renamed before it'll do anything at boot. > > If you're new to FreeBSD, this can be annoying and the documentation on how > to handle this doesn't seem to jump out from anywhere. The ports section of > the handbook doesn't mention it. I've got an update to the handbook I'm > going to submit some time today that I think will improve this. I've heard of > lots of people putting 'apachectl start' in their rc.conf file because they > couldn't figure out the proper way to do this. OK, sounds good. Thanks, Ceri -- User: DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR? Iniaes: Sure, I can accept all forms of payment. -- www.chatterboxchallenge.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 08:49:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BD537B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC9443FBD for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5DFnMOg002915; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:49:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE9F282.4020806@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:49:22 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fcash@sd73.bc.ca References: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> <20030613091355.GB9626@submonkey.net> <3EE9D11C.1040008@potentialtech.com> <200306130827.11464.fcash@sd73.bc.ca> In-Reply-To: <200306130827.11464.fcash@sd73.bc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:49:30 -0000 Freddie Cash wrote: > On June 13, 2003 06:26 am, Bill Moran wrote: > >>Ceri Davies wrote: >> >>>On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 02:09:56PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: >>> >>>>One thing I feel is missing is a basic admin tutorial for newbies. >>>>I mean, the handbook covers installing and getting everything up >>>>and running, but once you're there you're lost. A lot of Linux >>>>folks seem to get lost (for example) figuring out how to get >>>>Apache to start automatically after it's installed. I'm guessing >>>>an explanation in the ports section of the handbook would help, >>>>what do others think? > >>Most ports these days install a sample script in /usr/local/etc/rc.d >>(although this doesn't seem to be 100% consistent) The >>apache.sh.sample must be renamed before it'll do anything at boot. > >>If you're new to FreeBSD, this can be annoying and the documentation >>on how to handle this doesn't seem to jump out from anywhere. The >>ports section of the handbook doesn't mention it. I've got an update >>to the handbook I'm going to submit some time today that I think will >>improve this. I've heard of lots of people putting 'apachectl start' >>in their rc.conf file because they couldn't figure out the proper way >>to do this. > > While it is not documented anywhere in the ports sections, it is > documented in the man page for rc(8), which describes the bootup > sequence. It might be a better idea to include a pointer to this man > page than to re-write it in ports section of the Handbook. The patch I submitted refers the reader to the section of the handbook that explains this. It's not that the documentation is missing, it's just that it's not in the place that some look for it. A simple "This is handled by x, see y" will improve the situation, I feel. Although I think my pr was rejected as spam ... I probably have to set smarthost for sendmail to get it to go through ... grrrr ... -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 09:20:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EE937B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0A243FD7 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:20:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0hv.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.2.63] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19QrHP-0001Ky-00; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:19:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE9F964.B661C806@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:18:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray References: <200306131054.h5DAsaHh008904@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a46dd0c9117bf44b6f1a57029e711a0ae1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:20:01 -0000 Mark Murray wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > (a "thumbs up" meant "death" and a "thumbs down" meant "mercy"; > > Other way round. That's not correct. The movies are inaccurate. Actually, I did exaggerate a little; they performed a turning motion with the thumb for "death", from up to stab-in-the-heart. And "thumbs down" moved the index finger along their thumbs; it's hasrd to describe gestures in just words, though -- the start positions were as I said. 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 09:23:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F45D37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74DE43FDF for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0hv.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.2.63] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19QrLB-0002CB-00; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:23:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE9FA50.9F1D1601@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:22:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray References: <200306131226.h5DCQ4Hh009716@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a46dd0c9117bf44b6fae4676d60d4b5cf0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:23:55 -0000 Mark Murray wrote: > Paul Robinson writes: > > Hate to get into a bitch-slapping fight here, but Terry is right. The modern > > thing with thumbs-up meaning "good" doesn't translate directly to the Roman > > era. It's well established in historian circles, pretty much every Roman > > historian who is considered credible etc., all agree - thumbs up meant > > death, and thumbs down meant mercy. > > I guess my Latin teacher was wrong, then :-) There are actually two major variants of Latin people teach, as well, and neither one would let you talk to Seneca the Elder without him looking at you funny... but I digress. 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 09:45:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9A137B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95AAA43FDF for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:45:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0hv.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.2.63] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Qrfi-0007QU-00; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:45:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE9FF4C.EB3630C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:43:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> <3EE9D11C.1040008@potentialtech.com> <3EE9F282.4020806@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4eb5074c55638f5c3a8c093f61c818662548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: fcash@sd73.bc.ca Subject: Re: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:45:13 -0000 If anyone in this thread is still interested, there's actually a pretty big job to do in the documentation department, but it's more real technical writing, as it involves looking at code. Specifically, it would be nice to go through the manual pages relative to the implementation, and make sure that they correspond. But that's not all. It would be useful to go through the online SuSv3 manual pages, and effectively make the manual pages correspond (they can't be identical for the usual copyright reasons, so this requires creativitiy). Then add two sections to each page: "DEVIATIONS FROM THE STANDARD" and "BSD EXTENSIONS". This would make it *very* clear to program writers what they should be using to get standards compliant programs, and what cross-platform behaviours they should and should not expect, and what local extensions are available, if you know that you prefer performance (or BSD legacy with potential performance loss!) over portability. Personally, I would also refer them to a "bsd_extensions" man page as well, and that page would suggest strongly that any code that was written using a BSD extension wrapper it with appropriate #ifdef's, for portability's sake. The manifest constant to use is up to whoever, but "BSD_VISIBLE" and "FREEBSD" are likely candidates (with whatever underscores they have this week). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 10:09:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A9D37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16D343F93 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:09:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h5DH90Dk037290; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:09:00 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h5DH8xV7037287; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:09:00 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:08:59 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030613200439.F24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Viktor Lazlo cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:09:04 -0000 On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The original purpose of the trident was for the spearing of > fish -- it was the ancient equivalent of a fishing pole (hence > the association with sea gods). > this use continues in place up to and including the present day. > The trident was never really a weapon of war; instead, it was > used as a weapon in gladitorial combat, shortly after the > introduction of the Circus Maximus; like the short sword (a > "gladius", from which "gladiator" is derived), it was not very > efficient as a weapon, since, like the gladius, it was really > intended to provide a prolonged battle (oh yes, the modern word > "circus" derives from the central Rome arena "Circus Maximus", > but I don't see anyone suggesting that Ringling Brothers & > Barnum and Bailey rename their show!). > I'm pretty sure that tridents were used as a weapon of war by Minoans, and that there is sufficent evidence to back this up. > > -- Terry > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 10:17:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B6937B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26E243F85 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0hv.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.2.63] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19QsAs-0004QX-00; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:17:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3EEA06D7.BB8FE26C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:16:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi References: <20030613200439.F24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a451f9ec7dd25958e0b99719af82ba57e3387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Viktor Lazlo cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:17:19 -0000 Narvi wrote: > I'm pretty sure that tridents were used as a weapon of war by > Minoans, and that there is sufficent evidence to back this up. Offensive, or defensive? Nun-chucks were originally intended to seperate grain from chaff. Now they are in the ninja movies, where all the ninjas politely engage the hero one at a time, instead of all at once and beating him senseles in under s minute. Perhaps the hero is protected by a single mutex, and the ninjas are afraid of overwriting each other's writes to his "hit point" countering after decrementing it... 8-). In any case, if I were a fisherman, being attacked by soldiers from the sea, and all I had was my fishing pole, I would likely leave some nasty welts before they got me. 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 10:28:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A48D37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDF2043FA3 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5DHSFOg002991; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:28:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EEA09AF.7060501@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:28:15 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <20030613200439.F24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <3EEA06D7.BB8FE26C@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3EEA06D7.BB8FE26C@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:28:17 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > Narvi wrote: > >>I'm pretty sure that tridents were used as a weapon of war by >>Minoans, and that there is sufficent evidence to back this up. > > Offensive, or defensive? Nun-chucks were originally intended to > seperate grain from chaff. I thought chucks were part of the horse's bit? My understanding is that during certain periods, normal weapons were outlawed in the orient (for the general public, anyway) so they were disguised as ordinary things (i.e. horse's bit) > Now they are in the ninja movies, > where all the ninjas politely engage the hero one at a time, > instead of all at once and beating him senseles in under s > minute. Perhaps the hero is protected by a single mutex, and > the ninjas are afraid of overwriting each other's writes to his > "hit point" countering after decrementing it... 8-). Stop that. You can go to jail for humor that bad. > In any case, if I were a fisherman, being attacked by soldiers > from the sea, and all I had was my fishing pole, I would likely > leave some nasty welts before they got me. 8-) 8-). This is why I never pick fights with fishermen. Those barbed hooks give me the heebie-jeebies! -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 10:49:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D39137B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34BD043F75 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:49:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-156.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071C86EEB9; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id CB24220F2A; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:49:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:49:37 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Christian Weisgerber Message-ID: <20030613174937.GD33203@over-yonder.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another evil patent X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:49:42 -0000 On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 11:32:38AM +0000 I heard the voice of Christian Weisgerber, and lo! it spake thus: > > "This invention regards a dietary supplement formulation that > significantly improves the taste of the male ejaculate." Lemonade? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 11:07:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224B137B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.attbi.com (rwcrmhc11.attbi.com [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8393043FE0 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-231-16-253.client.attbi.com[12.231.16.253](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003061318073301300am1loe>; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:07:33 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h5DI789I034118 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:07:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h5DI73be034117; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:07:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: chat@freebsd.org References: <3EE8C1F4.7000800@potentialtech.com> <3EE9D11C.1040008@potentialtech.com> <3EE9F282.4020806@potentialtech.com> <3EE9FF4C.EB3630C@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Jun 2003 11:07:03 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EE9FF4C.EB3630C@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5xr85x4zso.85x@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Looking for holes in the docs to fill in X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:07:34 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > Then > add two sections to each page: "DEVIATIONS FROM THE STANDARD" > and "BSD EXTENSIONS". If those were to be FreeBSD-standard sections, the mdoc(7) manpage should be changed. And this FreeBSD project probably should be consulted: http://www.freebsd.org/projects/c99/index.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 11:15:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D97C37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (mail.cruzio.com [63.249.95.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F400743FDD for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brucem@cruzio.com) Received: from cruzio.com (dsl3-63-249-85-132.cruzio.com [63.249.85.132]) by mail.cruzio.com with ESMTP id h5DIFIRC072406; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brucem@localhost) by cruzio.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id h5DHfhb00654; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brucem) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:41:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bruce R. Montague" Message-Id: <200306131741.h5DHfhb00654@cruzio.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:15:19 -0000 Hi, I'm no expert, but my impression is that the current problem in India with Hindu "tridents" isn't so much their historical baggage, but that they are, in fact, being using as weapons _today_: -- http://www.onlinevolunteers.org/gujarat/reports/children/chapter1.htm "The Hindus were crying that we Muslims were responsible for the Godhra incident; so they would wipe out the entire race. They started burning all our houses. They killed as many they could get hold of, with sword and trishul (trident); after that they poured petrol or kerosene and burnt all the bodies." -- http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/02/20/stories/2003022006231100.htm "The Chief Minister... had no doubt about the seriousness of the issue... asking them to restrain the VHP from distributing "trishuls." Rajasthan is yet to include "trishuls" under the purview of the Arms Act, which proscribes a weapon with a sharp blade measuring 10.5 cm long. According to a study by the Rajasthan PUCL, the VHP trident has a sharpened portion of 8 cm, though its overall length is 13.5 cm. ``This is an eyewash as the rest of it can be sharpened anytime...'' says Kavita Srivastava, general secretary. The act of arming people through "trishuls'' has increased in..." -- http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2009/stories/20030509004103000.htm "Gehlot made it clear that the trishul was not a religious symbol. While the trident of Siva was an object of respect, the three-pronged knife distributed by the VHP was a deadly weapon... ...a matter of concern for the government." Relatively speaking, there seems to be a lot of "mob" violence in India with the most primitive of weapons. FWIW, on the real nits-that-dont-matter-front, all the Indian pages that I've seen (and any Indian newstory that spells it out), attribute the trident to Shiva. Vishnu's weapon is the discus... I dunno... (hum, I need an attributed weapon... guess coffee will do!) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 11:23:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF5937B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8532A43F75 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5DINXtS054377; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:23:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3EE93B2E.4020309@potentialtech.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <20030612193524.GA31199@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3EE8DB83.4040609@potentialtech.com> <200306122006.55906.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <3EE933E1.9080503@potentialtech.com> <3EE93B2E.4020309@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 20:19:53 +0200 To: Bill Moran From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:23:40 -0000 At 10:47 PM -0400 2003/06/12, Bill Moran wrote: > Here you are saying that spam filtering is the same as malware filtering. > Or, at least, that's the best I can understand what you've written. Actually, I was thinking about doing anti-malware scanning on outgoing e-mail as opposed to anti-spam scanning, but now that I think about it some more, I think the statement still holds true. If one of your users spams a whole bunch of people on the 'net, what with the net anti-spam laws coming out that allow the recipients to file lawsuits for $1000 damages per spam (or whatever), and the fact that they're much more likely to get their money from a company (i.e., you) as opposed to a single individual, you are highly likely to be named as a co-defendant in their suit, if nothing else. So, yes. You need to do anti-malware *AND* anti-spam scanning on all incoming and outgoing e-mail. > Notifying senders is spam. Most newer malware sends emails with random > "From" addresses, lifted from the users address book or elsewhere. If you > send notifications to the "From" email, you're simply contributing to the > spam problem. Some does, some doesn't. This is why you need to have intelligent scanning tools that not only detect whether this is incoming versus outgoing e-mail, but also check to see if the claimed sender address is internal or not. > Unfortunate, but true. The only reliable way to notify the correct person > is to parse the received headers for the originating server's IP and look up > the abuse address for that machine and report to it. I use spamcop for that. You can't trust the headers. The only thing you can trust is the information you collect yourself, namely the machine that sent the spam to you. That needs to be your ultimate guide for what you do with the machine, if all else fails. > Hell ... notifying recipients is usually spam. Most people don't care that > the server blocked an infected email. Your boss might be impressed to get > lots of emails showing what a good job your malware filter is doing, but if > you need to do that for your boss to appreciate you, look for other work. Most people want to get periodic reports, if not notified for every blocked message. They might also want to have the messages held in a queue for a period of time, long enough for them to see the reports and go take some action to cause a message to get un-stuck, in case it was accidentally flagged and stopped. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 15:28:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A7E37B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FBA43F75 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 67069530E; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:28:38 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Dan Langille" References: <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> <3EE97690.19879.5468C4@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:28:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3EE97690.19879.5468C4@localhost> (Dan Langille's message of "Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:00:32 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Tridents X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:28:42 -0000 "Dan Langille" writes: > A google: thumbs up death roman gladiator > http://slate.msn.com/id/2080812/ > > Actually it appears historians are divided on which signal meant > what. Actually, historians know better than to argue about which way the thumb should point. The whole thing is a Hollywood fabrication. There are references to "turning the thumb" in ancient litterature, but noone knows which way it was turned or what it meant. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 15:34:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D598737B435 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70F243F85 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from njamn8or ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.netESMTP <20030613223408.ONXF25924.priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net@njamn8or>; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:34:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:33:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@njamn8or.no-ip.org To: Mark Murray In-Reply-To: <200306131226.h5DCQ4Hh009716@grimreaper.grondar.org> Message-ID: <20030613152807.X26939@njamn8or.no-ip.org> References: <200306131226.h5DCQ4Hh009716@grimreaper.grondar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:34:10 -0000 On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Mark Murray wrote: > Paul Robinson writes: > > Hate to get into a bitch-slapping fight here, but Terry is right. The modern > > thing with thumbs-up meaning "good" doesn't translate directly to the Roman > > era. It's well established in historian circles, pretty much every Roman > > historian who is considered credible etc., all agree - thumbs up meant > > death, and thumbs down meant mercy. > > I guess my Latin teacher was wrong, then :-) What I remember from Latin was that there was no explicit recorded evidence of which gesture meant what but that based on studies of frescos and other contemporary art of the classical Roman period scholars had concluded the emperors used thumbs up to instruct the gladiator to finish off his opponent. The following link says much the same: http://www.ur.ku.edu/News/97N/SepNews/Sept29/thumbs.html Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 16:03:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E367537B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes53.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F57E43FBF for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from njamn8or ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes53.telusplanet.net ESMTP <20030613230351.TSGF27854.priv-edtnes53.telusplanet.net@njamn8or>; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:03:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:03:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@njamn8or.no-ip.org To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: <3EE9FA50.9F1D1601@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030613155117.A26939@njamn8or.no-ip.org> References: <200306131226.h5DCQ4Hh009716@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3EE9FA50.9F1D1601@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 23:03:53 -0000 > There are actually two major variants of Latin people teach, > as well, and neither one would let you talk to Seneca the Elder > without him looking at you funny... but I digress. 8-) 8-). > > -- Terry Say what? Classical Latin is Classical Latin, based on the literary records of the period. The only variants I know of are specific to user groups such as Church Latin, medical Latin etc and are not part of any curricula that I am aware of. Or are you talking about pronunciation guides, which usually depend on locale (i.e.-"c" which was pronounced as "k" before front vowels in Classical Latin is usually pronounced as "s" in French and English speaking countries, "ts" in Germany, "ch" in Italy, etc) although any Latin course worth it's tuition will insist on the accepted Classical pronunciation. Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 17:50:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A87137B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta06ps.bigpond.com (mta06ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D233743FA3 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:50:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ian.pulsford@bigpond.com) Received: from bigpond.com ([144.135.25.69]) by mta06ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 mta06ps May 23 2002 23:53:28) with SMTP id HGG50H00.5T9 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:50:41 +1000 Received: from ess-p-144-138-75-27.mega.tmns.net.au ([144.138.75.27]) by psmam01.bigpond.com(MAM $Name: REL_3_3_2b $ 65/4682502); 14 Jun 2003 10:50:41 Message-ID: <3EEA718A.D579B833@bigpond.com> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:51:22 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Look up it's SuperDOS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:50:45 -0000 I'm giving up FreeBSD because I have found something way superior: http://www.bluebird.com/superdos_faq.htm Laugh! Ian Pulsford From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 13 21:28:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07A637B401 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cecov.masternet.it (cecov.masternet.it [194.184.65.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C4943F85 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:28:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@masternet.it) Received: from lifebook.masternet.it (modem47.masternet.it [194.184.65.242]) by cecov.masternet.it (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5E4UxNb042295; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 06:31:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@masternet.it) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030614061832.00c5bbd0@194.184.65.7> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.7 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 06:21:16 +0200 To: Bill Moran From: Gianmarco Giovannelli In-Reply-To: <3EE9CAFE.5000402@potentialtech.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030613061832.03bab008@194.184.65.7> <5.2.1.1.2.20030612202321.02e28008@194.184.65.4> <5.2.1.1.2.20030613061832.03bab008@194.184.65.7> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Antivirus for (mailservers on) FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 04:28:46 -0000 At 09.00 13/06/2003 -0400, Bill Moran wrote: >>>I really like Sophos. McAffee also did a deal with Whistle/IBM >>>at one point, for doing this on the InterJet. I don't know if >>>they ever completed the code, or what happened with that. >>I am not looking for a simple antivirus but a very quick and fast, if >>possible, product specified for mailservers. > >Sophos products do this. mailmonitor ? otherwhise sweep is a general tool, not a one designed to be used directly by a mailserver. >>Sophos should use amavis, which usually loose some msg (you have to >>re-queue from time to time) :-). > >I have never seen this. Been running Amavis for over a year and never >had a complaint of lost messages. If you use amavis-perl and you check your /var/spool/mqueue (not /var/spool/mqamavis) you should find it plenty of msgs. Otherwhise I have to suppose that a lot of others persons like me have wrong configurations elsewhere... Btw I don't want to criticize amavis which is IMHO a very good alternative ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 14 00:01:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C93037B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (adsl-19-46-199.asm.bellsouth.net [68.19.46.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB87143FBF for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (sektie@localhost.codersluts.net [127.0.0.1])h5E80mAa013928; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 03:00:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) From: "sektie" To: Bill Moran , chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 03:00:48 -0500 Message-Id: <20030614075901.M27909@codersluts.net> In-Reply-To: <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <20030610113226.GL30092@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> X-Mailer: Open WebMail 2.01 20030425 X-OriginatingIP: 24.207.161.86 (sektie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 07:01:33 -0000 > I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. ... I think I'd switch to RedHat if I ever saw her wearing BSD undies. Gag me with a spoon. Randi Harper sektie@codersluts.net http://perlpimp.codersluts.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 14 03:02:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF5137B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 03:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB32743FBD for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 03:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5EA2o803958; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 06:02:50 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 06:02:49 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030614060249.A3949@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EE97A1D.62E0D6DE@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-18.7smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tridents (was Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:02:54 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > They are not technically tridents. They are a symbol of the > Hindu god Vishnu. They are technically tridents, if you define a trident as a three-pronged pitchfork-like object (the original word is "trishul", and they are a symbol of Shiva, not Vishnu. Hindu mythology is a rich and complex beast. It's unfortunate that some present-day Hindus confuse the mythology with the philosophy. Nevertheless, saying "Hindus in India carry trishuls" is like saying "Christians in America bomb abortion clinics." You're talking about a fringe -- a dangerous fringe that must be tackled, and that has worrying ties with the government in power, but still a fringe. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 14 04:30:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F28B37B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 04:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.ii.uib.no (eik.ii.uib.no [129.177.16.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC5343F3F for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 04:30:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from s1465@lstud.ii.uib.no) Received: from snutebille.ii.uib.no ([129.177.19.82]) by smtp.ii.uib.no with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19R9F1-0003z9-00; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:30:39 +0200 Received: (from s1465@localhost) by snutebille.ii.uib.no (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h5EBUXIY020463; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:30:33 +0200 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:30:33 +0200 (CEST) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_R=F8njom?= To: Ian Pulsford In-Reply-To: <3EEA718A.D579B833@bigpond.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -27.5 (---------------------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19R9F1-0003z9-00*rWKObqjaeoI* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Look up it's SuperDOS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 11:30:44 -0000 On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, Ian Pulsford wrote: > I'm giving up FreeBSD because I have found something way superior: > > http://www.bluebird.com/superdos_faq.htm > > Laugh! > > Ian Pulsford If I were the man who wrote all that I would have shot my myself today( and maybe asked for a copy of FreeBSD and a laptop to play with in heaven) /sondre From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 14 08:16:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC2037B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690DB43FBD for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09171; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:16:36 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030614091435.029aeac0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:16:31 -0600 To: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3EEA718A.D579B833@bigpond.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Look up it's SuperDOS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:16:52 -0000 At 06:51 PM 6/13/2003, Ian Pulsford wrote: >I'm giving up FreeBSD because I have found something way superior: > >http://www.bluebird.com/superdos_faq.htm Wow! They even have a BBS and a 9600 baud modem! (Or so says their "SuperDOS" home page.) I guess you're right about looking u... [SPLOT] --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 14 12:14:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C49437B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 12:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B28C43F85 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 12:14:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5EJEa4i049778 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:14:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:14:36 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306142114.36318.olivas@digiflux.org> Subject: Re: Look up it's SuperDOS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 19:14:41 -0000 On Saturday 14 June 2003 1:30 pm, Sondre R=F8njom wrote: > On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, Ian Pulsford wrote: > > I'm giving up FreeBSD because I have found something way superior: > > > > http://www.bluebird.com/superdos_faq.htm > > > > Laugh! > > > > Ian Pulsford > > If I were the man who wrote all that I would have shot my myself today( > and maybe asked for a copy of FreeBSD and a laptop to play with in > heaven) > > /sondre > Hmm, I think it's interesting how they keep on stating that by using their= =20 product, you eliminate the need for a "costly" sysadmin on your companies=20 payroll to maintain your computers. So, what happens if the whole system=20 decides to commit suicide-- You call the company up and they charge you $$$$ for fixing their "outstanding" product. =20 I wonder how long until someone like Microsoft or SCO sues them for infring= ing=20 on a patent or software license or some other thing. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 14 12:21:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2013337B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 12:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.213.64.2] (firewall.tiadon.com [204.213.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095E043F85 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from rmc.tiadon.com by [204.213.64.2] ESMTP; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:19:56 -0500 Received: from applications.tiadon.com (mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) by bcec01.tiadon.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id M49F27FC; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:21:16 -0500 Received: from firewall.tiadon.com ([204.213.65.94]) by applications.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:20:14 -0500 Received: from [204.213.65.94] by firewall.tiadon.com via smtpd (for mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) with ESMTP; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:18:50 -0500 Message-ID: <045501c332a9$f32b7840$5e41d5cc@nitanjared> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Stacy Olivas" , References: <200306142114.36318.olivas@digiflux.org> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:19:58 -0500 Organization: DaleCo, S.P.---"the solutions people" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Look up it's SuperDOS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 19:21:18 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Look up it's SuperDOS! > On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, Ian Pulsford wrote: > > I'm giving up FreeBSD because I have found something way superior: > > > > http://www.bluebird.com/superdos_faq.htm > > > > Laugh! > > > > Ian Pulsford >I wonder how long until someone like Microsoft >or SCO sues them for infringing >on a patent or software license or some other thing. Why don't WE? Medical expenses: Broke ribs ROFLMAO... Or plain ol' libel or somesuch... Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 14 16:59:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A1537B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9E643FBF for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.vanderhoek@utoronto.ca) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([64.231.5.125]) by tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20030614235950.TFJI7582.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 19:59:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.nowhere (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.nowhere (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5ENxjW3091358; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 19:59:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.nowhere) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h5ENxiCu091357; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 19:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 19:59:44 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Stacy Olivas Message-ID: <20030614235944.GA90374@turquoise> References: <200306142114.36318.olivas@digiflux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306142114.36318.olivas@digiflux.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Look up it's SuperDOS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:59:56 -0000 On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 09:14:36PM +0200, Stacy Olivas wrote: > > > > > > http://www.bluebird.com/superdos_faq.htm [...] > I wonder how long until someone like Microsoft or SCO sues them for > infringing on a patent or software license or some other thing. In the latter case at least, probably a while since SCO is listed as one of their corporate partners. (Whatever "Corporate Partner" means, mind you). -- There are two types of tasks in life: those which become less urgent as time passes, and those which become more urgent. Rotating one's .signature file is a task of the latter type.