From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 02:21:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA10372 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA10361; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:21:23 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vP4Ln-000QrUC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 11:21 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id LAA25485; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 11:13:28 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611171013.LAA25485@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: "free" SCO O/S In-Reply-To: <199611161734.MAA00747@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Nov 16, 96 12:34:09 pm" To: dyson@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 11:13:28 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John S. Dyson writes: >> >> Ok, so I get a prompt for the BTLD disk, and insert it. Only it >> appears that the 'slha' driver isn't on the disk. Or perhaps I >> mistyped it. At any rate, this section from the SCO manual is >> pertinent : >> >> NOTE If there are any errors during this extraction (linking) >> process, the process is aborted and you are forced to reboot. >> >> Like hell I am. Stick it back on the shelf and worry about it some >> other time. Anyone tells me FreeBSD is difficult to install is going >> to get laughed out of the room. Too true. > You need to get the BTLD disk from the symbios site. It took me > a long time (a few weeks of picking away at it) until I found this > out (since I don't know anyone running the turkey.) I was better off. I had already installed SCO 2.0 a hundred times from floppy. At least that came with documentation. As Mike reports, the 12 page brochure is mainly advertising and has to be the worst description of how to install an OS that I have ever seen. > Once I got it running, I was disappointed. The darned thing is > "license-manager" city. Right. What really pissed me off is that they sent me the CD and something like an invoice (pretty primitive for the world's largest selling UNIX), and then expected me to go across the web (which costs me $$$) to register. What if SCO was the only machine I had that would connect to the net? This is just plain *stupid*. > It also has lots of bogus symbolic links into wierd places for the > various system binaries. Forgive them. They've only just got a version which supports symlinks, so they're showing off. Other System V vendors have this same love of symlinks. To quote somebody who might prefer to remain anonymous: > it's really incredible. I understand using them to hide a specific rev, > or to make a mount system that isn't radically affected by disks moving, > but it's really gotten out of hand. > > in MOST cases a single symlink at a high level can hide a revision, > yet these weenies today seem to think they should keep the top level > the same and symlink every freakin' thing at the bottom of the trees ;-{ > > which is exactly what they did with the C30 compiler. /usr/lib/cmplrs/cc > is a symlink to /opt/318env. in /opt/318env/usr/bin each executable is > a symlink to a file in /usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18, which is itself a symlink > to /opt/318env/bin. for example, in /opt/318env/usr/bin we have: > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 28 Sep 5 10:31 DBX -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/DBX > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 34 Sep 5 10:31 abicc -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/abi/abicc > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 34 Sep 5 10:31 abild -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/abi/abild > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 27 Sep 5 10:31 ar -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/ar > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 31 Sep 5 10:31 as -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/driver > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 29 Sep 5 10:31 btou -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/btou > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 31 Sep 5 10:31 cc -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/driver > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 29 Sep 5 10:31 cord -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/cord > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 28 Sep 5 10:31 dbx -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/dbx > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 28 Sep 5 10:31 dis -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/dis > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 29 Sep 5 10:31 kdbx -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/kdbx > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 27 Sep 5 10:31 ld -> ../usr/lib/cmplrs/cc3.18/ld > > note the ../, which takes us elsewhere yet again, to a tree of duplicate > structure. care to venture a guess where cc winds up? don't bother. > Ugly... BTW, at least I could get FreeSCO to boot (after some > agony.) I had Solaris 2.5.1 for a week or so, and could never get > it to work (and the friend who owns it couldn't either on his > machines.) > > FreeSCO is not a stellar performer, but it does have much faster > metadata perf (they have worked on the filesystem alot since I last > used SVR3.X.) Otherwise, it is a bit sluggish. How much memory do you have? I installed it on my old workhorse 486/66 with 16 MB, and it *crawls*. Run FreeBSD on the same machine, and it won't blow your head off, but there is an incredible difference. Another thing: the development system is all screwed up. I'm trying to prepare a CD-ROM of ported software for SCO, and I had the devil's own job porting. Things that would port out of the box on other operating systems failed for hundreds of reasons. Their only header file which defines dev_t defines it as short, whereas in reality it's long. There are a couple of other things like that. With the possible exception of Tandem, it's the most painful UNIX development environment I've ever encountered. All in all, I wonder if SCO has done themselves a favour with this idea. The main advantages I see in SCO is that there is a lot of software available for it, and that it comes with good documentation (the $$ version really does, or did the last time I bought one). The documentation falls flat on Free SCO, and I wonder whether the availability of applications is enough incentive to go through all the pain. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 02:21:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA10376 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA10366 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:21:31 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vP4Lm-000QrRC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 11:21 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id LAA25467; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 11:01:41 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611171001.LAA25467@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) In-Reply-To: <199611161229.NAA07216@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 16, 96 01:29:06 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 11:01:41 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > (Moved to -chat, for obvious reasons. ;) > > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>> I'm guessing sed, I thought Jordan had a disdain dislike for perl. :-) >> >> sed, definitely. I mean, who needs perl when you've already got >> sed, sh and awk? :-) > > Those who are too impatient to wait until sh, sed, and awk are ready > with fork()ing and execve()ing... :-) Looks like you're solving the wrong problem here. How about faster fork and execve? Then you don't need to learn another YACL. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 05:10:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA18269 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 05:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA18264 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 05:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12695 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:10:23 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id OAA31865 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:10:10 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.2/keltia-uucp-2.9) id NAA19768; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 13:25:40 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 13:25:40 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) References: <199611161229.NAA07216@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199611171001.LAA25467@freebie.lemis.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.50.05 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2686 In-Reply-To: <199611171001.LAA25467@freebie.lemis.de>; from Greg Lehey on Nov 17, 1996 11:01:41 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Greg Lehey: > Looks like you're solving the wrong problem here. How about faster > fork and execve? Then you don't need to learn another YACL. When the equivalent of a few lines of Perl is several sed/awk/cut in shell (commonplace), even with a faster fork/exec, Perl will still be faster. If anything, you'll fork/exec Perl faster :-) For many tasks over 20 lines of shell script, Perl will be faster. There are some things I'd consider difficult with sh/awk/sed that are almost trivial with Perl. C wil be faster but unless you don't know Perl at all, you'll end up writing it faster in Perl... Of course Real Programmers(TM) use Fortran. :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #28: Sun Nov 10 13:37:41 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 16:12:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24155 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24108 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA15850; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:42:06 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611180012.KAA15850@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: UserConfig is broken + PS/2 support success In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Nov 17, 96 03:24:24 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:42:05 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > > Personally speaking of course, I happen to like Bruce's review of any > code that I check in. Hear, hear. Having someone prod you about your work is much easier to deal with and less threatening than them just marching in and stuffing with it, and Bruce, you do an excellent job! -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 16:23:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24719 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24712; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:23:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA15922; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:53:17 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611180023.KAA15922@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: "free" SCO O/S In-Reply-To: <199611171013.LAA25485@freebie.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 17, 96 11:13:28 am" To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:53:16 +1030 (CST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey stands accused of saying: > >> Like hell I am. Stick it back on the shelf and worry about it some > >> other time. Anyone tells me FreeBSD is difficult to install is going > >> to get laughed out of the room. To note; I decided to give it one more go. Observations below. > I was better off. I had already installed SCO 2.0 a hundred times > from floppy. At least that came with documentation. As Mike reports, > the 12 page brochure is mainly advertising and has to be the worst > description of how to install an OS that I have ever seen. It should also be observed that the installation/setup procedure regularly refers you to some manual or other, none of which are shipped. > > Once I got it running, I was disappointed. The darned thing is > > "license-manager" city. Yup. It gets better though; I either mistyped the license spaghetti during installation (and it didn't tell me), or it's supposed to have expired when you install, so that the first time you boot off the HD the system explodes and leaves you with a root shell and no licenses. Fortunately, I've heard a few words about SCO before, so I managed to find 'scoadmin', and eventually worked out that I had to delete the license for the OS and re-add it. But selecting the 'help' button was the best; you get a blank screen with "ip_output: TCP/IP not licensed" at the bottom, and need ^\ to get anywhere. Yay. Then we talk about the package manager, which scans the entire CD every time you start it (despite reading everything off to the HD every time), a process that takes 5-10 minutes. Or should I mention that the _bare_install_ took nearly two hours on a reasonably well-configured Pentium, or that the _only_ way that I could preserve the disk partitions already on the disk was to use the "fdisk/divvy" method of partitioning, which takes me back to my bad old SCO 2.1.1 days. Aigh! > Forgive them. They've only just got a version which supports > symlinks, so they're showing off. *ouch* > How much memory do you have? I installed it on my old workhorse > 486/66 with 16 MB, and it *crawls*. Run FreeBSD on the same machine, > and it won't blow your head off, but there is an incredible > difference. Yup, noticed this. Their SCSI system stinks, is all I can guess. The box I installed on is a P83 with 32M, and the disk an ST11200N on an NCR. Not the hottest box either, but SCO felt glacial. > (the $$ version really does, or did the last time I bought one). The > documentation falls flat on Free SCO, and I wonder whether the > availability of applications is enough incentive to go through all the > pain. Not if we can get them to work out-of-the-box under FreeBSD, that's for sure. > Greg -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 00:41:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA23012 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 00:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22990 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 00:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id TAA19846; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:11:11 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611180841.TAA19846@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). In-Reply-To: <199611180731.XAA14862@salsa.gv.ssi1.com> from Don Lewis at "Nov 17, 96 11:31:33 pm" To: Don.Lewis@tsc.tdk.com (Don Lewis) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:11:11 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, newton@communica.com.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (This has nothing to do with security. Moved to -chat where such drool belongs) Don Lewis stands accused of saying: > > I'd like to be able to do "make release" to get a binary release with > this already taken care of to make installation easier. I'd also like > the release to have unnecessary stuff like compilers and include files > removed. a) You can fiddle 'make release' to do anything you want, after all, you have the source, right? b) Removing the compiler and "unnecessary" stuff may be less useful than you think. But if you're determined to force people to use the GENERIC kernel, then go ahead and do it. I'm sure _someone_ will love you, although these would be the people who were happy when Sun and SCO did the same thing. *snort* > --- Truck -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 01:19:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA25023 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.ssi1.com (salsa.gv.ssi1.com [146.252.44.194]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA25001; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:18:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.ssi1.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA15007; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:18:36 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199611180918.BAA15007@salsa.gv.ssi1.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:18:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: Michael Smith "Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2)." (Nov 18, 7:11pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Michael Smith Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). Cc: chat@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 18, 7:11pm, Michael Smith wrote: } Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). } (This has nothing to do with security. Moved to -chat where such drool } belongs) Actually, it is security related (see my response to (b)): } Don Lewis stands accused of saying: } > } > I'd like to be able to do "make release" to get a binary release with } > this already taken care of to make installation easier. I'd also like } > the release to have unnecessary stuff like compilers and include files } > removed. } } a) You can fiddle 'make release' to do anything you want, after all, you } have the source, right? Yes, but it's a lot harder than I'd like. } b) Removing the compiler and "unnecessary" stuff may be less useful than } you think. But if you're determined to force people to use the GENERIC } kernel, then go ahead and do it. I'm sure _someone_ will love you, } although these would be the people who were happy when Sun and SCO did } the same thing. *snort* I'm doing this to make building firewall boxes easier. The kernel won't be GENERIC, it'll be a pre-configured ultra-paranoid kernel. There won't be any general user accounts. Administrative access will only be allowed from the console or via ssh from a trusted location. Most of userland will only be removed (especially setuid and setgid executables!), leaving only enough to boot the machine and launch the appropriate daemons that were precompiled and included in the release. In case the machine is compromised or the disk blows up, it is reloaded from a trusted source (not from a backup tape that some cracker managed to leave a back door in). I want this to be an easy task and not require five hours answering questions, editing files, and deleting stuff. Since I'll be the only person logging in, and I won't be compiling any code on that machine, I don't need a compiler, and I don't want to make it any easier than necessary for some cracker d00d to compile his r00t kit. And on more of a chat related note, there is a discussion going on over on the hardware list about using FreeBSD for routers. What if was easier to build really tiny releases for such purposes? If they were small enough, you could get it to all fit on a floppy (sort of like the current install floppy) and you could build a router or other simple dedicated device without a hard disk at all. You'd still need a full FreeBSD box around to do development on, but this would allow you to deploy a number of really cheap FreeBSD boxes on your network as dedicated devices. Please follow up only to the appropriate places. --- Truck From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 01:57:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27097 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27078 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:57:40 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vPQSN-000QstC; Mon, 18 Nov 96 10:57 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id KAA27749; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:26:15 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611180926.KAA27749@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) In-Reply-To: from Ollivier Robert at "Nov 17, 96 01:25:40 pm" To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:26:12 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ollivier Robert writes: > According to Greg Lehey: >> Looks like you're solving the wrong problem here. How about faster >> fork and execve? Then you don't need to learn another YACL. > > When the equivalent of a few lines of Perl is several sed/awk/cut in shell > (commonplace), even with a faster fork/exec, Perl will still be faster. Sure. And C will be faster than perl. > If anything, you'll fork/exec Perl faster :-) If I start perl :-) > For many tasks over 20 lines of shell script, Perl will be faster. There > are some things I'd consider difficult with sh/awk/sed that are almost > trivial with Perl. C wil be faster but unless you don't know Perl at all, > you'll end up writing it faster in Perl... Well, I won't say that I don't know perl at all, but I do know C, and I think I'll do it faster in C, so I obviously don't know enough perl. My real problem with perl is that it doesn't seem to offer enough to get to know well. And maybe I should choose tcl? Or guile? Or YACL? What do I do when the particular operation I want to do takes too long? Where's the C language interface? Where's the debugger? > Of course Real Programmers(TM) use Fortran. :-) Real Programmers code in hex. Fortran programmers are wimps who don't understand computers :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 06:32:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA17014 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nimbus.superior.net (root@nimbus.superior.net [206.153.96.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA17005 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from exidor@localhost) by nimbus.superior.net (8.7.6/8.7.5) id JAA18675; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:32:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611181432.JAA18675@nimbus.superior.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:32:36 -0500 From: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) References: <199611180926.KAA27749@freebie.lemis.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611180926.KAA27749@freebie.lemis.de>; from Greg Lehey on Nov 18, 1996 10:26:12 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > > For many tasks over 20 lines of shell script, Perl will be faster. There > > are some things I'd consider difficult with sh/awk/sed that are almost > > trivial with Perl. C wil be faster but unless you don't know Perl at all, > > you'll end up writing it faster in Perl... > > Well, I won't say that I don't know perl at all, but I do know C, and > I think I'll do it faster in C, so I obviously don't know enough perl. Probably a valid statement.. > My real problem with perl is that it doesn't seem to offer enough to > get to know well. And maybe I should choose tcl? Or guile? Or YACL? > What do I do when the particular operation I want to do takes too > long? Read the manual section on opitimizing for speed? Re-write critical sections in C? > Where's the C language interface? Right there. PERLCALL(1) Perl Programmers Reference Guide PERLCALL(1) NAME perlcall - Perl calling conventions from C DESCRIPTION The purpose of this document is to show you how to call Perl subroutines directly from C, i.e. how to write callbacks. Apart from discussing the C interface provided by Perl for writing callbacks the document uses a series of examples to show how the interface actually works in practice. In addition some techniques for coding callbacks are covered. [---] PERLXS(1) Perl Programmers Reference Guide PERLXS(1) NAME perlxs - XS language reference manual DESCRIPTION Introduction XS is a language used to create an extension interface between Perl and some C library which one wishes to use with Perl. The XS interface is combined with the library to create a new library which can be linked to Perl. An XSUB is a function in the XS language and is the core component of the Perl application interface. The XS compiler is called xsubpp. This compiler will embed the constructs necessary to let an XSUB, which is really a C function in disguise, manipulate Perl values and creates the glue necessary to let Perl access the XSUB. The compiler uses typemaps to determine how to map C function parameters and variables to Perl values. The default typemap handles many common C types. A supplement typemap must be created to handle special structures and types for the library being linked. See the perlxstut manpage for a tutorial on the whole extension creation process. [...] Where's the debugger? Right there. nimbus:/tmp$ perl -d hello.pl Stack dump during die enabled outside of evals. Loading DB routines from perl5db.pl patch level 0.95 Emacs support available. Enter h or `h h' for help. main::(hello.pl:1): print "Hello, World!\n"; DB<1> h h List/search source lines: Control script execution: l [ln|sub] List source code T Stack trace - or . List previous/current line s [expr] Single step [in expr] w [line] List around line n [expr] Next, steps over subs f filename View source in file Repeat last n or s /pattern/ ?patt? Search forw/backw r Return from subroutine v Show versions of modules c [line] Continue until line Debugger controls: L List break pts & actions O [...] Set debugger options t [expr] Toggle trace [trace expr] < command Command for before prompt b [ln] [c] Set breakpoint > command Command for after prompt b sub [c] Set breakpoint for sub ! [N|pat] Redo a previous command d [line] Delete a breakpoint H [-num] Display last num commands D Delete all breakpoints = [a val] Define/list an alias a [ln] cmd Do cmd before line h [db_cmd] Get help on command A Delete all actions |[|]dbcmd Send output to pager ![!] syscmd Run cmd in a subprocess q or ^D Quit R Attempt a restart Data Examination: expr Execute perl code, also see: s,n,t expr S [[!]pat] List subroutine names [not] matching pattern V [Pk [Vars]] List Variables in Package. Vars can be ~pattern or !pattern. X [Vars] Same as "V current_package [Vars]". x expr Evals expression in array context, dumps the result. p expr Print expression (uses script's current package). -- Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com On Poultry Inspectors, little-known importance of: The crime bill passed by the Senate would reinstate the Federal death penalty for certain violent crimes: assassinating the President; hijacking an airliner; and murdering a government poultry inspector. - Knight Ridder News Service dispatch. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 08:31:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25448 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nimbus.superior.net (root@nimbus.superior.net [206.153.96.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA25442; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from exidor@localhost) by nimbus.superior.net (8.7.6/8.7.5) id LAA24415; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:31:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611181631.LAA24415@nimbus.superior.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:31:02 -0500 From: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) To: chat@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org Subject: Problems with 2.1.6-RELEASE X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ftp.freebsd.org Can't complete download, site is too loaded ftp2.freebsd.org 2.1.6-RELEASE not present Mirror looks ancient - recent snapshots of 2.2 missing ftp3.freebsd.org XFree86 missing from 2.1.6 distribution ftp4.freebsd.org Does not respond to FTP ftp5.freebsd.org XFree86 missing from 2.1.6 distribution ftp6.freebsd.org Many files missing from 2.1.6 distribution ftp7.freebsd.org unknown host. -- Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com On Redundancy: I'm for abolishing and doing away with redundancy. - J. Curtis McKay of the Wisconsin State Elections Board. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 08:45:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA26215 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:45:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26195; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id IAA08736 ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <17373(1)>; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:42:59 PST Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177557>; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:42:47 -0800 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: Don Lewis cc: Michael Smith , chat@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:18:36 PST." <199611180918.BAA15007@salsa.gv.ssi1.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:42:36 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Nov18.084247pst.177557@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199611180918.BAA15007@salsa.gv.ssi1.com>you write: >I don't need a compiler, and I don't want to make >it any easier than necessary for some cracker d00d to compile his r00t >kit. If you want to save space, that's fine, but don't delude yourself by thinking that your cracker d00d can't just go find someone on IRC with a FreeBSD box who will send him binaries. Bill From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 09:09:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27976 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from firewall.Exabyte.COM (firewall.exabyte.com [206.104.178.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA27968 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:09:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime1.Exabyte.COM (prime1.Exabyte.COM [161.81.18.231]) by firewall.Exabyte.COM (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA12185 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:09:08 -0700 Received: from fern.Exabyte.COM (fern.Exabyte.COM [161.81.16.132]) by prime1.Exabyte.COM (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA13612 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:09:07 -0700 Received: by fern.Exabyte.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04748; Mon, 18 Nov 96 10:05:21 MST Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 10:05:21 MST From: bartlett@Exabyte.COM (Peter Bartlett) Message-Id: <9611181705.AA04748@fern.Exabyte.COM> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ollivier Robert writes: > > ... > > Sure. And C will be faster than perl. > > ... > In my experience this is not necessarily the case. I have in the past compared performance of programs written separately in Perl and C. These were written to perform a complex engineering task involving lots of text manipulation, array operations, integer math, etc. The Perl program (several thousand lines) won hands down. The reason? Perl's "associative array" data type. Very rarely do C programmers take the time to implement hash tables for the various data types they wish to do searches on. Usually the result is long searches of linked lists, perhaps sorted lists for some performance improvement. With Perl the hash tables are built in, resulting in far better search times. However, I disagree with the inclusion of Perl in the FreeBSD distribution, in my opinion it should be considered "application software" and distributed separately. --- Peter J. Bartlett E-Mail: bartlett@exabyte.com Exabyte Corporation Voice: (303) 417-5703 1685 38th Street Fax: (303) 417-7180 Boulder, CO 80301 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 09:16:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA28505 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.ssi1.com (salsa.gv.ssi1.com [146.252.44.194]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA28486; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:16:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.ssi1.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA15646; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:16:36 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199611181716.JAA15646@salsa.gv.ssi1.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:16:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: Bill Fenner "Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2)." (Nov 18, 8:42am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Bill Fenner , Don Lewis Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). Cc: chat@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 18, 8:42am, Bill Fenner wrote: } Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). } In message <199611180918.BAA15007@salsa.gv.ssi1.com>you write: } >I don't need a compiler, and I don't want to make } >it any easier than necessary for some cracker d00d to compile his r00t } >kit. } } If you want to save space, that's fine, but don't delude yourself by thinking } that your cracker d00d can't just go find someone on IRC with a FreeBSD box } who will send him binaries. I'm not counting on gaining much security that way, but my philosophy is to remove everything that isn't absolutely needed. What isn't present can't be used against me. I do consider the importation of any files to be a security breach. I just thought of a totally wicked way of guarding against imported binaries, though. Just randomize the syscall numbers when building the kernal and userland binaries. For best effect, the userland binaries should be statically linked and the shared libraries removed. As long as the kernel can withstand crashme, it should be fine ;-) Too bad it looks like such a pain to do this :-( Another possibility would be to digitally sign all the binaries and hack the kernel to only run binaries with the proper signature. --- Truck From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 09:51:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00971 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00938 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA22240 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:50:44 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:50:21 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA03476; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:50:12 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) id RAA00688; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:49:02 GMT To: bartlett@Exabyte.COM (Peter Bartlett) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) References: <9611181705.AA04748@fern.Exabyte.COM> From: Paul Richards Date: 18 Nov 1996 17:49:02 +0000 In-Reply-To: bartlett@Exabyte.COM's message of Mon, 18 Nov 96 10:05:21 MST Message-ID: <57n2wfthtd.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk bartlett@Exabyte.COM (Peter Bartlett) writes: > In my experience this is not necessarily the case. I have in the past > compared performance of programs written separately in Perl and C. > These were written to perform a complex engineering task involving lots of > text manipulation, array operations, integer math, etc. The Perl program > (several thousand lines) won hands down. > > The reason? Perl's "associative array" data type. Very rarely do C > programmers take the time to implement hash tables for the various data > types they wish to do searches on. Usually the result is long searches > of linked lists, perhaps sorted lists for some performance improvement. > > With Perl the hash tables are built in, resulting in far better search > times. This is a pretty silly point of view. 'C' is always going to be faster than perl for correctly implemented solutions. Stating the Perl is faster than badly written 'C' isn't very fair. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 10:18:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02341 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02318; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12284; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:17:38 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199611181817.UAA12284@grackle.grondar.za> To: Don Lewis cc: Bill Fenner , chat@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:17:37 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Don Lewis wrote: > I'm not counting on gaining much security that way, but my philosophy > is to remove everything that isn't absolutely needed. What isn't present > can't be used against me. I do consider the importation of any files > to be a security breach. > > I just thought of a totally wicked way of guarding against imported binaries, > though. Just randomize the syscall numbers when building the kernal and > userland binaries. For best effect, the userland binaries should be > statically linked and the shared libraries removed. As long as the kernel > can withstand crashme, it should be fine ;-) Too bad it looks like such > a pain to do this :-( Much easier is to put the users onto a volume that is mounted -noexec. This works for compiled binaries, not scripts. M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 10:24:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02776 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from firewall.Exabyte.COM (firewall.exabyte.com [206.104.178.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA02771 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime1.Exabyte.COM (prime1.Exabyte.COM [161.81.18.231]) by firewall.Exabyte.COM (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA17802; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:22:48 -0700 Received: from fern.Exabyte.COM (fern.Exabyte.COM [161.81.16.132]) by prime1.Exabyte.COM (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA16350; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:22:47 -0700 Received: by fern.Exabyte.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04923; Mon, 18 Nov 96 11:19:01 MST Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 11:19:01 MST From: bartlett@Exabyte.COM (Peter Bartlett) Message-Id: <9611181819.AA04923@fern.Exabyte.COM> To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > bartlett@Exabyte.COM (Peter Bartlett) writes: > > > In my experience this is not necessarily the case. I have in the past > > compared performance of programs written separately in Perl and C. > > These were written to perform a complex engineering task involving lots of > > text manipulation, array operations, integer math, etc. The Perl program > > (several thousand lines) won hands down. > > > > The reason? Perl's "associative array" data type. Very rarely do C > > programmers take the time to implement hash tables for the various data > > types they wish to do searches on. Usually the result is long searches > > of linked lists, perhaps sorted lists for some performance improvement. > > > > With Perl the hash tables are built in, resulting in far better search > > times. > > This is a pretty silly point of view. 'C' is always going to be faster > than perl for correctly implemented solutions. Stating the Perl is > faster than badly written 'C' isn't very fair. > > -- > Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) > Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. > Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk > Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 > No, it's a realistic point of view. In practice C programmers often do not take the time to implement the "correct" solution. Given the choice between developing and testing a hash function for a complex data class and simply implementing a linked list, the latter is often chosen due to time constraints, particularly if the programmer feels that the data set in question is unlikely to be large enough to merit the additional storage requirements of hashing. What's really silly is assuming that the "correct" solution is always chosen anywhere outside of academia. In the real world the time alotted to complete a given task is often much less than the time required to implement an optimal solution. It doesn't mean the programmer in question is unskilled. In fact the kind of programmers who can intuitively make these kind of tradeoffs (rather than insisting on a too-late, "correct" implementation) are generally far more valuable to their employers. My argument was that Perl can be a valuable tool for producing better solutions more quickly than with C for some applications. I wasn't tying to be fair, just realistic. Pete From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 10:31:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03132 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from salsa.gv.ssi1.com (salsa.gv.ssi1.com [146.252.44.194]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03102; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.ssi1.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA15909; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:30:55 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199611181830.KAA15909@salsa.gv.ssi1.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:30:55 -0800 In-Reply-To: Mark Murray "Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2)." (Nov 18, 8:17pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Mark Murray Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). Cc: chat@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 18, 8:17pm, Mark Murray wrote: } Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). } } Much easier is to put the users onto a volume that is mounted -noexec. } This works for compiled binaries, not scripts. Users, what users? Oh, I'm definitely doing the -noexec thing on anything that's writable, and -rdonly on anything that has executables. Not to mention nosuid and nodev as appropriate. Since I'm removing most of the binaries, I'm not too worried about scripts, even assuming they could get executed in spite of my other measures. There's only so much that you can do with cat and echo ;-) --- Truck From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 11:03:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04766 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA04761 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03079 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:03:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611181903.LAA03079@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: more and clearing the screen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:03:49 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gee , if I use "more" to see a file right after it encounters the eof it clears up the screen. Anyone else seen this behavior with xterm? "more" works okay with syscons. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 11:11:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05212 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05207 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from harlie (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.2]) by horst.bfd.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09212; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:08:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:08:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" X-Sender: ejs@harlie To: Paul Richards cc: Peter Bartlett , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) In-Reply-To: <57n2wfthtd.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 18 Nov 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > This is a pretty silly point of view. 'C' is always going to be faster > than perl for correctly implemented solutions. Stating the Perl is > faster than badly written 'C' isn't very fair. In this case, replace badly written with commonly written, and it does become a fair comparison. There is no universally available hash array library for C. The db library does have this available, but how many C programmers even know that the db library allows for in memory databases that never touch disk (except for swap)? Plus, that library isn't everywhere (not that it can't go just about everywhere). I recently did my very first non-trivial Perl program, a report generator control harness for automaticly generated nightly/weekly/monthly reports for several reports and customers, and despite the fact that I was learning as I went, it still took me half the time it would have taken with C, which I feel very comfortable with. Now, eventually, I'll have C++ class libraries that should duplicate all the functionality of Perl that I like (assuming I don't decide to be a hermit and program in Modula-3 or Ada95 :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 12:13:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08940 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from firewall.Exabyte.COM (firewall.exabyte.com [206.104.178.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08933 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:13:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime1.Exabyte.COM (prime1.Exabyte.COM [161.81.18.231]) by firewall.Exabyte.COM (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA26092; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:12:49 -0700 Received: from fern.Exabyte.COM (fern.Exabyte.COM [161.81.16.132]) by prime1.Exabyte.COM (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA19090; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:12:48 -0700 Received: by fern.Exabyte.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05333; Mon, 18 Nov 96 13:09:01 MST Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 13:09:01 MST From: bartlett@Exabyte.COM (Peter Bartlett) Message-Id: <9611182009.AA05333@fern.Exabyte.COM> To: ejs@bfd.com Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Now, eventually, I'll have C++ class libraries that should duplicate all > the functionality of Perl that I like (assuming I don't decide to be a > hermit and program in Modula-3 or Ada95 :-) > Yeah, I've been doing the same thing to replace some C++ classes I wrote a few years ago for lists, self-resizing hash tables and operation result caches, persistent objects, patch tables, etc. The thing that makes Perl nice is that it has a buit in "scalar" type that's used for just about everything. So for example only a single hash function is needed. The temptation with C++ is to write a hash table class that works for any data type; this requires that the user write a hash function for each base type to be hashed. This is somewhat against the idea of trying to make using these data structures almost effortless. I guess this discussion has gone beyond the point where it has anything to do with FreeBSD... Pete From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 14:25:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17435 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA17423 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA27870 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:25:01 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA15151 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:25:01 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id XAA02378 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:23:40 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611182223.XAA02378@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:23:39 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <57n2wfthtd.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> from Paul Richards at "Nov 18, 96 05:49:02 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Paul Richards wrote: > This is a pretty silly point of view. 'C' is always going to be faster > than perl for correctly implemented solutions. Stating the Perl is > faster than badly written 'C' isn't very fair. For execution time, yes. But the status of `correctly implemented' is much harder to achieve in C than in Perl... For development turnaround cycle time, things like Perl or Tcl (where appropriate) are the clear winners. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 16:51:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29544 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA29511 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id BAA02268; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:49:16 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA19023; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:49:16 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id BAA03225; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:20:22 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611190020.BAA03225@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: more and clearing the screen To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:20:22 +0100 (MET) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611181903.LAA03079@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Nov 18, 96 11:03:49 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Gee , if I use "more" to see a file right after it encounters the eof it > clears up the screen. Anyone else seen this behavior with xterm? > "more" works okay with syscons. Has been discussed before. It's the alternate screen display that is enabled by the ti/te capabilities in termcap. Has been introduced in rev 1.62 of termcap.src, and killed again in rev 1.65. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 16:52:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29672 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA29626 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id BAA02282; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:49:25 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA19026; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 01:49:23 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id AAA02819; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:30:01 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611182330.AAA02819@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:30:01 +0100 (MET) Cc: Don.Lewis@tsc.tdk.com (Don Lewis) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611180918.BAA15007@salsa.gv.ssi1.com> from Don Lewis at "Nov 18, 96 01:18:36 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Don Lewis wrote: > } a) You can fiddle 'make release' to do anything you want, after all, you > } have the source, right? > > Yes, but it's a lot harder than I'd like. Don't forget that the entire intention in putting /usr/src/release up into the tree (it wasn't always there!) was to make it possible that multiple FreeBSD developers could cooperate in the release management. That's the purpose, and it serves this purpose, hmm, at least well enough. :) But your idea should be implementable fairly simple. Stuff the following into each Makefile in the tree where you aren't interested in: .if defined(DON_LEWIS_RELEASE) install: # do nothing .endif ...and pass the environmental variable DON_LEWIS_RELEASE down to the `make distribute'. Since CVS can cope with locally modified trees, you should even be able to cvs update your tree regularly. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 17:58:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA05230 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.blaze.net.au (server.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05210 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.blaze.net.au ([203.17.53.1]) by blaze.net.au with SMTP id <188422-143>; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:57:26 +1000 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:57:11 +1100 (EST) From: "David L. Nugent" To: Amancio Hasty cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: more and clearing the screen In-Reply-To: <199611181903.LAA03079@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Gee , if I use "more" to see a file right after it encounters the eof it > clears up the screen. Anyone else seen this behavior with xterm? > "more" works okay with syscons. It isn't more, but your termcap. XFree 3.2 comes with a "new and improved" termcap for its xterm with page switching in its init/deinit termcap entries. There was some discussion about this on the FreeBSD lists a couple of weeks back. FWIW, I don't mind the behaviour because I have "setenv MORE '-e'" in my .login and the equivalent in .profile. This causes more to prompt at the end of output and not exit immediately. If you wanted this behaviour just in xterm, then add it to your .xinitrc or .xsession. If you don't like the page switching at all, then edit your termcap and remove the offending sequences. Regards, David From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 18:01:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA05473 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.blaze.net.au (server.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05463 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.blaze.net.au ([203.17.53.1]) by blaze.net.au with SMTP id <188422-143>; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:00:41 +1000 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:00:26 +1100 (EST) From: "David L. Nugent" To: Peter Bartlett cc: ejs@bfd.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? In-Reply-To: <9611182009.AA05333@fern.Exabyte.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Peter Bartlett wrote: > The thing that makes Perl nice is that it has a buit in "scalar" type that's > used for just about everything. So for example only a single hash function > is needed. The temptation with C++ is to write a hash table class that > works for any data type; this requires that the user write a hash function > for each base type to be hashed. This is somewhat against the idea of > trying to make using these data structures almost effortless. ? How so. This is a perfect example of where inheritance may be useful. Write the abstrct class for hashing, write some subclasses that implement the hashing, and there you have it. For more exotic data types, of course the user needs to write their own hash interface - that is only to be expected. > I guess this discussion has gone beyond the point where it has anything > to do with FreeBSD... :) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 18:46:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA08167 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA08133 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id NAA26051; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:15:16 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611190245.NAA26051@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). In-Reply-To: <199611180918.BAA15007@salsa.gv.ssi1.com> from Don Lewis at "Nov 18, 96 01:18:36 am" To: Don.Lewis@tsc.tdk.com (Don Lewis) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:15:15 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Don Lewis stands accused of saying: > } Subject: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2). > } (This has nothing to do with security. Moved to -chat where such drool > } belongs) > > Actually, it is security related (see my response to (b)): It's _not_ significantly security-related. Moved _back_. > } a) You can fiddle 'make release' to do anything you want, after all, you > } have the source, right? > > Yes, but it's a lot harder than I'd like. Er, what _would_ you like? The BSD release schema is actually pretty good by comparison with most systems this size. > I'm doing this to make building firewall boxes easier. The kernel won't > be GENERIC, it'll be a pre-configured ultra-paranoid kernel. There won't > be any general user accounts. Administrative access will only be allowed > from the console or via ssh from a trusted location. Most of userland will > only be removed (especially setuid and setgid executables!), leaving only > enough to boot the machine and launch the appropriate daemons that were > precompiled and included in the release. I can't see the benefit here. If the machine is compromised, then it hardly matters whether the tools are there, or whether the intruder has to import their own. (The latter is much more likely than the former anyway). Removing the build tools is a size issue; as a security concern it's a complete no-op. > And on more of a chat related note, there is a discussion going on > over on the hardware list about using FreeBSD for routers. What if > was easier to build really tiny releases for such purposes? If they > were small enough, you could get it to all fit on a floppy (sort of > like the current install floppy) and you could build a router or > other simple dedicated device without a hard disk at all. You'd > still need a full FreeBSD box around to do development on, but this > would allow you to deploy a number of really cheap FreeBSD boxes on > your network as dedicated devices. It should be relatively straightforward to produce such a build; I would suggest that you start by looking at how the boot floppies are built, then go sideways and make your minimal system up, and then use the release-floppy techniques to build your router-floppy. I think that'd be an excellent thing to have (it's been done before, but not maintained), and well worth the effort. > --- Truck -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 20:22:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA12832 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mail.IDT.NET (mail.idt.net [198.4.75.205]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12818 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia (ppp-16.ts-1.mlb.idt.net [169.132.71.16]) by Mail.IDT.NET (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA28403; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:21:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32913615.72A2@mail.idt.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:22:45 -0500 From: Gary Corcoran Reply-To: garycorc@mail.idt.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) References: <199611180926.KAA27749@freebie.lemis.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > Real Programmers code in hex. Fortran programmers are wimps who don't > understand computers :-) This is true... 8-) Back in the Good Old Days (tm) of my new Radio Shack Color Computer (circa 1982), when I had no assembler, I used to program it in hex (it used the superb 6809 8-bit processor). Of course, this only lasted until I wrote myself an assembler... Amazing what you used to be able to do in a 5K program... Gary From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 21:37:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA17077 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17064 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA17803 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:37:17 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id GAA09330 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:36:30 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.2/keltia-uucp-2.9) id AAA26098; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:41:24 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:41:24 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: chat@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? (Was: cvs commit: src/share/doc/handbook ...) References: <199611180926.KAA27749@freebie.lemis.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.50.05 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2686 In-Reply-To: <199611180926.KAA27749@freebie.lemis.de>; from Greg Lehey on Nov 18, 1996 10:26:12 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Greg Lehey: > Sure. And C will be faster than perl. In execution speed generally yes. The development time depends on your knowledge of each one as usual :-) > My real problem with perl is that it doesn't seem to offer enough to > get to know well. And maybe I should choose tcl? Or guile? Or YACL? What do you want ? That's the real question. Perl is not a language for everything as no language is. Perl is great for many things, from text processing, fast prototyping, and many others (like News and Mail, my latest scripts were in these areas). It can manage big and complex amounts of data easily and efficiently. When the language itself is not enough, there will be a module already done to help. > What do I do when the particular operation I want to do takes too > long? Rewrite it in C as a dynamic module, > Where's the C language interface? The C language interface is in perlxs or you can put Perl into C, > Where's the debugger? The debugger is "-d". > Real Programmers code in hex. Fortran programmers are wimps who don't > understand computers :-) cat >a.out ought to be enough. :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #28: Sun Nov 10 13:37:41 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 19 03:58:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA29527 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 03:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA29521 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 03:58:18 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vPomc-000QyWC; Tue, 19 Nov 96 12:56 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id MAA04294; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:33:01 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611191133.MAA04294@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-Reply-To: from Ola Persson at "Nov 9, 96 05:28:11 pm" To: smurfen@ludd.luth.se (Ola Persson) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:33:00 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ola Persson writes: > > On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >> Okay, Bacardi 150 proof (Puerto Rican Rum) > > Why why WHY do you guys use 'proof' as a measure of alcoholic > content.. The original term was 'proof spirit', a mixture of alcohol and other things, mainly water, which when ignited would just barely cause gunpowder to burn. It was pretty much 50% alcohol. In the UK, the term is (was?) not used in the same way as in America. The Bacardi above would be 50 over proof. > I have always wondered.... And is it exacty twice as much as ? As %? That depends. The "Shorter Oxford English Dictionary" specifies proof for alcohol to be "a mixture of alcohol and water having a specific gravity of 0.91984 and containing 0.495 of its weight, or 0.5727 of its volume, of absolute alcohol". Webster states it to be exactly 50% (like most values, by weight). Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 19 21:05:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA04015 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna.arpa.com (root@vienna.arpa.com [207.170.140.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04004 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from in-addr.arpa.com (root@in-addr.arpa.com [207.170.140.2]) by vienna.arpa.com (8.8.3/8.8.3/Gissy/vienna3.4) with ESMTP id AAA15774 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:10:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rob@localhost) by in-addr.arpa.com (8.8.3/8.8.3/Gissy/in-addr4.2) id AAA23865 for freebsd-chat@freefall.cdrom.com; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:05:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611200505.AAA23865@in-addr.arpa.com> Subject: benchmark To: freebsd-chat@freefall.FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:05:07 -0500 (EST) From: Rob Misiak-Rishaw X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL26 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, A customer of mine that I do consulting for is moving some of their services like mail, web, and DNS from an ISP to their site. They plan to do all of these on NT servers (even DNS -- bleh!). I tried to explain that some flavour of UNIX would be a much better choice, but they think that UNIX is a dead thing... I'm looking for benchmarks and other information (hard numbers, etc) that I could present to them telling why it would be better for them to choose FreeBSD (or even BSDI... hell, even Solaris is better than NT :) instead. I don't think that the staff should have much of a problem with FreeBSD, because I will set this stuff up myself initially (even if they run NT), and their webmaster knows enough about UNIX to get by after this. Thanks, Rob -- Rob Misiak - rob@arpa.com - www.arpa.com/~rob/ FF F9 39 44 3E 95 DD 1A 8E BF B1 44 21 3C 1B 8F From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 19 22:42:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA08442 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA08437 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id BAA07057; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:42:00 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199611200642.BAA07057@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: benchmark To: rob@arpa.com (Rob Misiak-Rishaw) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:42:00 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org, kessler@celebration.net In-Reply-To: <199611200505.AAA23865@in-addr.arpa.com> from "Rob Misiak-Rishaw" at Nov 20, 96 00:05:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi all, > > A customer of mine that I do consulting for is moving some of their services > like mail, web, and DNS from an ISP to their site. They plan to do all of > these on NT servers (even DNS -- bleh!). I tried to explain that some flavour > of UNIX would be a much better choice, but they think that UNIX is a dead > thing... > I am not answering your question -- but, since this is -chat... :-)... Y'know, I have the same problem at one of the places where I work -- NT is good, UNIX is dead. Sometimes even my expertise at making things work quickly and efficiently is discounted because recently most of that has been focused in the U**X direction. There is alot of dis/mis information out there. A good example of NT's efficiency follows: We are working on a prototype of a device, which relies on a GUI interface. Because of the "way that the winds blow" we are captive to the NT world. Specifically, Visual Basic makes programs "easy to write." That is unadulterated hogwash for sure... We are having to put 64MB on a 486 for a simple device that would likely have needed 16MB or less if using FreeBSD with XFree86(or Xaccel for that matter). If we could have "done it right" with an R4000 and a very efficient embedded OS/GUI we would also have gotten by with 16MB or less (probably significantly less.) NT and Visual Basic causes the little hard drive to rattle away with 32MB (with the terrible performance that one usually gets when running under NT while paging...) It is really pathetic. Now, we are going to have to "make up" for the "easy to write" aspects by spending time optimizing a system that would have had no real problems if we had chosen a better path. Note that I have a document from Microsoft extolling the virtues of their FIFO paging policy, and frankly, I couldn't disagree more with it. Actually, I am humored by it. (Or would be, if NT's performance wouldn't be a party to such severe problems.) Note that the NT perf problems aren't just due to the kernel, but also due to the seductive development environments like Visual Basic. I usually do daemons (or services in the NT world) and things like that. My NT stuff usually runs very well. It is the bloat-ware and lack of knowledge that make projects so worrysome and painful. We are very much getting into the "hack it together" phase of our profession -- ANYONE can program now, right? The short-term mentality of corporations strikes again -- skill and craftsmanship don't appear to be nearly as highly regarded as once was. Short sighted development appears to cause a lot of waste, and then with the process so broken, they are still talking about "reusability." The C code that I have been writing is very reusable (and I have been doing so) -- cut and paste is my "friend." Of course, none of our VB code is effectively reusable at all. :-(. So, it isn't just that U**X is dead -- it is that everything is dead except Microsoft (bloat|slow)-ware... If Microsoft decided to sell MSDOS 3.2 as the latest/greatest OS -- they could get by with it. Oh, that's right, they did!!! In fact, MSDOS 5.0 was better, right?!?!? WinNT is better than that, of course, it is just the MSDOS of the '90s... Wrong technical solution to the problem, but it doesn't matter, because of the fact that Microsoft can sell it. They have traded a featureless, non-OS for an OS and tools that are severely bloated and sluggish. FreeBSD will easily be able to keep up and surpass WinNT in the performance arena, as long as there is interest in it. Microsoft doesn't have to care about performance. Alot of orgs are happy with mediocre performance. This is followed by my condescending and frustrated *sigh*. John From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 00:04:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA12650 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA12586 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:03:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA10371; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:04:27 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA29655; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:15:02 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199611200815.JAA29655@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: Interest in large collection of Lisp/Scheme implementations? In-Reply-To: <199611200751.IAA02139@knight.cons.org> from Martin Cracauer at "Nov 20, 96 08:51:44 am" To: cracauer@cons.org (Martin Cracauer) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:15:01 +0100 (MET) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dbetz@bix.com Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Christoph Kukulies writes: > > > - Is there some interest to have such a wide collection of > > > Lisp-related packages on FreeBSD or do you think is a rather > > > pointless or would you fear FreeBSD could be seen as some kind of > > > "new Lisp machine"? > > > You're thinking of the rise and fall Symbolics, right? ;-) > > Well, I'm afraid we have to wait until Emacs is based on Guile instead > of elisp. The reel feeling needs an Editor and an environment hosted in > the same live world. Stallman pushes this step, so there is hope. > > But, in fact, right now I sit in front of a photocopy of one of these > fancy keyboards with 'Windows 95' keys, scratching the ugly MS logos > from it and labeling keys 'meta', 'super', 'hyper', 'symbol', > 'select', painting circles and quares and do a xmodmop to make the > useless caps lock above the left shift a backwards delete key :-) I have such a keyboard myself. Well, the Windows logo key isn't that bad. Ever used netscape to read mail? Pressing WinKey+Alt with arrow up/down lets you scroll up/down messages in the netscape mail reader. > > [followups on this paragraph are better directed to -chat] > > [...] > > I would like to see such a collection. When you cover 20 implementations > > I'm sure my favourite LISP, namely XLISP (XSCHEME) will be included. > > I planned to do so for Common Lisp and Scheme. In fact, I don't eally > like xlisp because it caused it lot of code to be written that is not > useable on other implementations and xlisp is to a good part > responsible for the myth that Lisp has to be slow. I don't know if you know the byte code version of XLISP (was it 3.0?). I will cc this to dbetz@bix.com :-) > > Martin > -- > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer > cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (batched, preferred for large mails) > Tel.: (daytime) +4940 41478712 (sometimes hacker's daytime :-) > Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 > Paper: (private) Waldstrasse 200, 22846 Norderstedt, Germany > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 06:24:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA06871 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 06:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA06863 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 06:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id JAA04757; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:18:04 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199611201418.JAA04757@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: question: Unite or Die? To: dennis@kentauros.rtd.algo.com.gr (dennis) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:18:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961120120658.006f8ecc@kentauros> from "dennis" at Nov 20, 96 02:06:58 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Hi to all, > i posted a question recently, asking why to prefer FBSD over Linux. > I have moved this to -chat, this is not appropriate for our technical forums. >I was > accused of > starting a flame war then. My real intention was to see if there was *REALLY* > something diffrent to look about. My conclusion is that in some fields FBSD > is better > (networking, stability) and in some other Linux has the lead( available > drivers, memory > managment). My question is why have two OS rather than one REALLY good one? > Why dont programmers,hackers,develepors of both teams unite to write the > ultimite OS? > Actually FreeBSD-current is much better in the memory management area (the upcoming 2.2 release.) Our 2.1.X series comes from the same time frame (actually, I think before 1.2.X of Linux.) There is significant anecdotal evidence that FreeBSD handles memory loads much better than almost any other OS (In the case of Linux, much better.) (2.1.X had a very inefficient malloc in userland, and now we have a very nice, FreeBSD written one.) Under light loading conditions, each OS is roughly equivalent. There is a difference in philosophy between the OSes (even the responsibility of development in the FreeBSD kernel (and that is what Linux really is) is spread amongst more people.) It isn't commonly understood, but is true. FreeBSD doesn't have a single authoritarian leader, but frankly the Linux development is authoritarian. > > Why the two teams mock at each other? Dont they see the danger in front of > them? > There are two philosophies of freedom -- the pre-ordained, I know what is best for the world notion of the GPL. There is the freer, you can do with the code what you want of the BSDL. I prefer a license that doesn't encumber as much as GPL. GPL is too heavy handed and too much against freedom of redistribution (with the double-speak that they are for "freedom" -- of course meaning something entirely different.) In my mind, GPL is more like shareware without having to pay money for it -- there are still too many strings attached. > > Windows NT has only one goal: to kill UNIX and every flavour of it! > Distribute your knowledge, before you become a close team of hackers > against the > rest of the NT driven world! > WinNT has the marketing might of Microsoft behind it. Performance isn't where NT shines. U**X is good where you do need the performance, and your management doesn't come from the same training (lobotomy) programs as Dilbert's manager. Each company/individual can decide to buy junk or something inferior if they want. We cannot control that. I really don't think that a bunch of radical children will turn the tides of computing (other than they will be looked at with disdain.) Evaluating each problem, and applying the best solution and tools to the problem is the best way to handle things. Frankly, the GPL breaks most run-time software for me and much of the software industry. For development tools, GPL is okay for me, because I don't invest my time in them and redistribute them. As a pure, simple end user, or a big FTP redistribution site, GPLed code is okay. As a manufacturer and redistributor, GPL can cause more problems than the software is worth. IMO, the best of all worlds would be if GPLed runtime code would just go away, with GPLed and free non-runtime code comprising the rest of the system. IMO, GPLed runtime code is not much better than Microsoft NT. This would help small, conservative, responsible (non-development tool) software vendors alot. Of course, the agenda behind GPL implies that software (and the trade-secrets) should be exposed. I don't think so!!! Such trade-secrets are sometimes expensive to create, and GPL encumbered code isn't a place where I want my trade-secrets placed. John From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 06:55:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA09051 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 06:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA09043 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 06:55:27 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vQE0N-000QrUC; Wed, 20 Nov 96 15:51 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id PAA23324; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:33:00 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611201433.PAA23324@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In-Reply-To: <199611200128.SAA10034@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 19, 96 06:28:09 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:33:00 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (redirected to -chat) Terry Lambert writes: > This was a 3-level English pun based on a single initial English pun > used to back-handedly reference PERL. > > (3) How can Lithium be "a gas" in the colloquial sense? Lithium > salts are used psychopharmacologically in the moderation of > N-dopamine uptake. A chronically mentally ill person with > Schitzophrenia is most likely suffering from: (1) a genetic > predisposition to having fewer than is considered normal > N-dopamine receptors, or (2) smaller than is considered normal > N-dopamine production, or (3) has a chemical imbalance > interfering with N-dopamine uptake. Item (3) can be > environmental poisoning -- for instance, Aspartame (Nutrasweet) > bonds to N-dopamine receptors. Do not drink most diet sodas > if you are borderline Schitzophrenic, or change the amount > you drink if you are already on medication. In a "normal" > person, Lithium use would result in reduced brain function. Knowing you Terry, I hate to ask why you know so much about this particular aspect. > You can send fan-mail to my regular address. 8-P. Did I do right? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 07:33:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA11226 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.Chemie.FU-Berlin.DE [160.45.24.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA11218 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Wed, 20 Nov 96 16:32 MET Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for rob@arpa.COM id ; Wed, 20 Nov 96 11:17 MET Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03350; Wed, 20 Nov 96 10:26:40 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 10:26:40 +0100 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9611200926.AA03350@wavehh.hanse.de> To: rob@arpa.COM Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: benchmark References: <199611200505.AAA23865@in-addr.arpa.com> Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk rob@arpa.COM (Rob Misiak-Rishaw) wrote: >A customer of mine that I do consulting for is moving some of their services >like mail, web, and DNS from an ISP to their site. They plan to do all of >these on NT servers (even DNS -- bleh!). First of all, DNS on NT is said to be nothing else than completly broken. >I tried to explain that some flavour >of UNIX would be a much better choice, but they think that UNIX is a dead >thing... I'm looking for benchmarks and other information (hard numbers, etc) >that I could present to them telling why it would be better for them to choose >FreeBSD (or even BSDI... hell, even Solaris is better than NT :) instead. The problem with NT is not that is doesn't work at all. In fact, for me it does better in a number of way than Linux. The problems with NT (IMHO): 1) All the people you can hire to do work on NT I know (no matter whether free, working for a consultant or being employees) are ignorant in a way you can't do any serious project with them. Especially their knowledge about TCP/IP is insufficient (and after all, that's what you are up to). Most have no idea what a port number is and if they do, they have no idea how data from different connections is delivered to individual streams. You can't implement a serious application because they can't offer the neccessary information about the advanced things you need to do (mmap, virtual memory in general, signal handling etc). All they know is to look up a class name in MFC if you are lucky or in Delphi if not. They have no idea why anyone could want to use his one and only editor inside of other applications. They have no idea why anyone could want to use Win32 as there is the "much more advanced" MFC. I could go on for hours. Harr! Argh! Nuggle! 2) It's not only NT itself that offers non-optimal solutions to a large number of problems. Using NT means you use all those junk applications that are worse by a large factor. If you are working on NT, you will be surprised how fast you'll get forced to use Visual Basic, Borland development tools and some braindead, simple-minded, closed database "toolkit". 3) In the windows world, you are usually not longer in a position to change the implementation of a tool you use for a project. That applies to the operating system itself (if you find an unacceptable bug in Unix, you can usually choose another Unix implementation), to the languages (on Windows, you either program in a one-implementation language anyway or your code is unnccessarily coupled to a C++ implementation), to network services (on Unix, if you don't like Netscape's server, you just get Apache, not to speak of less popular services such as mail, news, dns). In a way, the unability to choose an editor is of the same sort (virtually everything has an editor build in). 4) If you are about to choose whether you want to be an Unix sysadmin or a NT sysadmin, be warned that this is usually a decision not between operating systems, but between user bases. If you are a NT admin, you will have to provide support for all people using Windows. If you are a Unix sysadmin, you usually talk to other computers and not so much to other people. OK, simplified. All in all the main reason I don't like NT because I'm not able to solve problems. When I encounter a problem in NT, I have no source code to look into. I usually have documentation that tells nothing about how a given program is organized and can be repaired from broken files. I usually can't find anyone to ask about these things. There are now some books that are useful to gain better understanding, but they are kind of bloated with unrelated junk to fill the rest of the 1200 pages and the information gets outdated too fast (it doesn't on Unix). Be assured, I'd like to have a rich thread interface for a wide installed base like Win32 offers and I'd like to use a real C++ compiler and have exception handling from the OS into my libraries. I'd like to have a central control for network services. I'd like to have a registry instead of a bunch of ascii files and the installation support for civilized application is quite nice. I like having one common 'delete-the-char-before-point' key for all apps. I even like to work with some Windows apps, the Internet Explorer, their newsreader, some Corel stuff, some things in Excel. But that's not worth anything if I loose my work on a regular basis. How many times my Visual C++ projects couldn't be reread? How many times do my friends reinstall Windows 95? How many text has been saved in a junk state by MS Word (not for me)? How long did it take before the Internet Newsreader forgot all what newsgroups I was subcribed to (a few days)? How can I tell which file carries this information and how I can save and restore it, not to speak of manipulating? On Unix, I have a nightly script running that adds the subjects of all threads spread over more than N newsgroups to my killfile (most useful program I've ever written). How the heck can I do so on NT? Don't understand me wrong, Unix is junk, the whole concept to dump output as loose ascii data to stadout and rescan it in the next pipe citizen is ... l can't find words. But unless Emacs turns into the new Lisp machine, I can live with it, because at least on FreeBSD and NetBSD I can fix almost every problem that gets in my way and I almost never loose work. Amen. -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://cracauer.cons.org Fax +49405228536 "As far as I'm concerned, if something is so complicated that you can't ex- plain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway"- Calvin From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 09:07:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA17859 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17832 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id SAA17981 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:07:11 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id SAA06894 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:07:11 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id RAA16795 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:33:21 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611201633.RAA16795@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: benchmark To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:33:21 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <9611200926.AA03350@wavehh.hanse.de> from Martin Cracauer at "Nov 20, 96 10:26:40 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Martin Cracauer wrote: While i basically agree with you... > >A customer of mine that I do consulting for is moving some of their services > >like mail, web, and DNS from an ISP to their site. They plan to do all of > >these on NT servers (even DNS -- bleh!). > > First of all, DNS on NT is said to be nothing else than completly > broken. I can't confirm this. We've been evaluation their DNS server recently since one of our customers went to DNS, and they already have at least one NT server at each of their locations. Admittedly, we've only tested it with a fairly small database by now. At least, they didn't change the database file format, so you're able to hand-edit the files if it scares you too much to click a thousand buttons in order to globally add yet another MX to all your mail hosts in the zone. The worst of this beast was as is everything in this class of operating system: i had to get up from my chair, and walk over to the console of that machine in order to add a new entry into their DNS database. Fortunately, the machine is only 20 meters away from me. If it were 20 km, i would have been embarrased (since i've been getting used to maintain machines throughout the globe without the need of a car or plane). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 10:00:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22376 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22336 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA11332; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:46:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611201746.KAA11332@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:46:39 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199611201433.PAA23324@freebie.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 20, 96 03:33:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (redirected to -chat) Thanks... [ ... psychopharmacological aspects of Lithium ... ] > Knowing you Terry, I hate to ask why you know so much about this > particular aspect. My mother is a psychiatric social worker who works with the chronically mentally ill. Most of her clients are on medication of one kind or another. Remind me to tell you about citric acid and protease re-uptake inhibitors some time... 8-). Suffice it to say, a glass of orange juice is about the worst thing you can take for a hangover... > > You can send fan-mail to my regular address. 8-P. > > Did I do right? We'll find out... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 10:47:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26563 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec.camitel.com (ec.camitel.com [206.231.123.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26558; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cfortin@localhost) by ec.camitel.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA00811; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:48:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.4 [p0] on FreeBSD X-PRIORITY: 2 (High) Priority: urgent Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:24:21 -0500 (EST) Organization: =?us-ascii?Q?=C9lectro-Conception?= From: Christian Fortin To: FREEBSD-HACKERS@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-STABLE@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CURRENT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CHAT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-ANNOUNCE@freebsd.org Subject: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. Corel seem to make avalable a version of WordPerfect 7.0 for Linux... Corel have the possibility to build a WP for FreeBSD also... :-) But they want to have an average of how many person will buy it ! WP 7.0 will avalable in the first quarter of 1997 at the price of 495$ US for single user. You add 299$ US for add licences... It include the support for many kind of keyboard language and all the stuf for build graphique... The files are compatible with WP for Windows and DOS. A Java version of Corel Office will be also avalable... ####################################################### # Send an e-mail with your coodinate at: # # wp@ec.camitel.com # # Just say: I want WP 7.0 For freeBSD !!! at 495$ # # Name: # # #tel: # # #Fax: # # Adress: # # ZIP: # ####################################################### If Corel take desision to release a FreeBSD version a person from Corel will contact you in few month... It depend how many personne want it... ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Christian Fortin Date: 11/20/96 Heure: 13:24:21 ##################################################--------+ Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J --------------------------L---WM-----< \----1 --- - From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 11:34:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28998 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.105.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28986 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:34:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10384; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:33:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:33:34 -0500 (EST) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: Terry Lambert cc: Greg Lehey , terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In-Reply-To: <199611201746.KAA11332@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Suffice it to say, a glass > of orange juice is about the worst thing you can take for a > hangover... Ok, you got my interest. Today is my birthday so what is the BEST thing to drink for a hangover? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 12:36:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02563 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02557; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00889; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:36:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611202036.MAA00889@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Christian Fortin cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-STABLE@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CURRENT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CHAT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-ANNOUNCE@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:24:21 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:36:37 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) Regards, Amancio >From The Desk Of Christian Fortin : > That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. > Corel seem to make avalable a version of WordPerfect 7.0 for Linux... > Corel have the possibility to build a WP for FreeBSD also... :-) > > But they want to have an average of how many person will buy it ! > > WP 7.0 will avalable in the first quarter of 1997 at the price > of 495$ US for single user. You add 299$ US for add licences... > > It include the support for many kind of keyboard language > and all the stuf for build graphique... > The files are compatible with WP for Windows and DOS. > > A Java version of Corel Office will be also avalable... > > > > ####################################################### > # Send an e-mail with your coodinate at: # > # wp@ec.camitel.com # > # Just say: I want WP 7.0 For freeBSD !!! at 495$ # > # Name: # > # #tel: # > # #Fax: # > # Adress: # > # ZIP: # > ####################################################### > > If Corel take desision to release a FreeBSD version > a person from Corel will contact you in few month... > It depend how many personne want it... > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > E-Mail: Christian Fortin > Date: 11/20/96 > Heure: 13:24:21 > ##################################################--------+ > Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | > 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | > Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | > Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | > G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J > --------------------------L---WM-----< > \----1 > --- > - From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 13:34:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11438 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (root@hub.org [204.101.125.200]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11376; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:34:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by hub.org (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA22765; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:33:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:33:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Amancio Hasty cc: Christian Fortin , FREEBSD-HACKERS@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-STABLE@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CURRENT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CHAT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-ANNOUNCE@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) In-Reply-To: <199611202036.MAA00889@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do > so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) > I *really* hate to put a wrench in the works...but *please* do not send a message to Coral if its only to bolster the numbers. I would really hate for everyone to send in a mail message, get them to release it for FreeBSD, and find 10% actually buy a copy...it would really really set a bad precedent(sp?), which could hurt us long term... :( > Regards, > Amancio > > >From The Desk Of Christian Fortin : > > That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. > > Corel seem to make avalable a version of WordPerfect 7.0 for Linux... > > Corel have the possibility to build a WP for FreeBSD also... :-) > > > > But they want to have an average of how many person will buy it ! > > > > WP 7.0 will avalable in the first quarter of 1997 at the price > > of 495$ US for single user. You add 299$ US for add licences... > > > > It include the support for many kind of keyboard language > > and all the stuf for build graphique... > > The files are compatible with WP for Windows and DOS. > > > > A Java version of Corel Office will be also avalable... > > > > > > > > ####################################################### > > # Send an e-mail with your coodinate at: # > > # wp@ec.camitel.com # > > # Just say: I want WP 7.0 For freeBSD !!! at 495$ # > > # Name: # > > # #tel: # > > # #Fax: # > > # Adress: # > > # ZIP: # > > ####################################################### > > > > If Corel take desision to release a FreeBSD version > > a person from Corel will contact you in few month... > > It depend how many personne want it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > E-Mail: Christian Fortin > > Date: 11/20/96 > > Heure: 13:24:21 > > ##################################################--------+ > > Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | > > 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | > > Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | > > Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | > > G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J > > --------------------------L---WM-----< > > \----1 > > --- > > - > > Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 14:07:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13833 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:07:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13826 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:07:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from spyder.inna.net (jamie@spyder.inna.net [206.151.66.4]) by tyger.inna.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA00970; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:10:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:12:01 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Jeremy Sigmon cc: Terry Lambert , Greg Lehey , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > > Suffice it to say, a glass > > of orange juice is about the worst thing you can take for a > > hangover... > > Ok, you got my interest. Today is my birthday so what is the BEST thing > to drink for a hangover? > Water. Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 14:09:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13958 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13948; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from spyder.inna.net (jamie@spyder.inna.net [206.151.66.4]) by tyger.inna.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA01071; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:13:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:14:49 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Amancio Hasty cc: Christian Fortin , FREEBSD-HACKERS@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-STABLE@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CURRENT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CHAT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-ANNOUNCE@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) In-Reply-To: <199611202036.MAA00889@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk WP 7.0 for $500? You're out of your mind. If the software vendors didn't rape UNIX users for using there software, maybe more of us would. On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do > so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) > > Regards, > Amancio > > >From The Desk Of Christian Fortin : > > That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. > > Corel seem to make avalable a version of WordPerfect 7.0 for Linux... > > Corel have the possibility to build a WP for FreeBSD also... :-) > > > > But they want to have an average of how many person will buy it ! > > > > WP 7.0 will avalable in the first quarter of 1997 at the price > > of 495$ US for single user. You add 299$ US for add licences... > > > > It include the support for many kind of keyboard language > > and all the stuf for build graphique... > > The files are compatible with WP for Windows and DOS. > > > > A Java version of Corel Office will be also avalable... > > > > > > > > ####################################################### > > # Send an e-mail with your coodinate at: # > > # wp@ec.camitel.com # > > # Just say: I want WP 7.0 For freeBSD !!! at 495$ # > > # Name: # > > # #tel: # > > # #Fax: # > > # Adress: # > > # ZIP: # > > ####################################################### > > > > If Corel take desision to release a FreeBSD version > > a person from Corel will contact you in few month... > > It depend how many personne want it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > E-Mail: Christian Fortin > > Date: 11/20/96 > > Heure: 13:24:21 > > ##################################################--------+ > > Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | > > 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | > > Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | > > Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | > > G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J > > --------------------------L---WM-----< > > \----1 > > --- > > - > > > Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 14:40:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18605 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18599 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (daemon@cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.101]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA16539; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:40:18 GMT Received: from auk.fsl.noaa.gov by cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov with SMTP (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA282169616; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:40:16 GMT Message-Id: <329388EB.6607@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:40:43 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.10 9000/725) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Amancio Hasty , Christian Fortin , FREEBSD-CHAT@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It wasn't necessary to plaster this over five different mailing lists, nor to keep five lists for each reply! Control yourself, people! -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 14:47:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18913 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nimbus.superior.net (root@nimbus.superior.net [206.153.96.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18899; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from exidor@localhost) by nimbus.superior.net (8.7.6/8.7.5) id RAA22028; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:47:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611202247.RAA22028@nimbus.superior.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:47:08 -0500 From: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) To: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problems with 2.1.6-RELEASE References: <199611181631.LAA24415@nimbus.superior.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611181631.LAA24415@nimbus.superior.net>; from Christopher Masto on Nov 18, 1996 11:31:02 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Two days later: > ftp.freebsd.org > Can't complete download, site is too loaded Can't connect > ftp2.freebsd.org > 2.1.6-RELEASE not present > Mirror looks ancient - recent snapshots of 2.2 missing Nothing has changed - 2.1.6-RELEASE still not present > ftp3.freebsd.org > XFree86 missing from 2.1.6 distribution Same problem > ftp4.freebsd.org > Does not respond to FTP Some problem > ftp5.freebsd.org > XFree86 missing from 2.1.6 distribution Same problem > ftp6.freebsd.org > Many files missing from 2.1.6 distribution Same problem > ftp7.freebsd.org > unknown host. 2.1.6-RELEASE missing from site. Maybe the reason Linux is more popular has something to do with the near-impossibility of obtaining FreeBSD from the net. (And thanks, I've already got it - I'm posting this to point out the problem, not to ask for help) -- Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com On Wives, those who bark: The Faithful watchdog or the good wife standing at the door to welcome the home-coming master with honest bark.. - small town newspaper editor in Wisconsin, mid-1800s. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 15:03:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA19658 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from hod.tera.com (hod.tera.com [206.215.142.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA19590; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [206.215.142.62]) by hod.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17835; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:02:22 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02890; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:02:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611202302.PAA02890@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at "Nov 20, 96 04:33:44 pm" To: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:02:20 -0800 (PST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, cfortin@ec.camitel.com, FREEBSD-HACKERS@FreeBSD.org, FREEBSD-STABLE@FreeBSD.org, FREEBSD-CURRENT@FreeBSD.org, FREEBSD-CHAT@FreeBSD.org, FREEBSD-ANNOUNCE@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Marc G. Fournier: > On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do > > so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) > > > > I *really* hate to put a wrench in the works...but *please* do not > send a message to Coral if its only to bolster the numbers. I would > really hate for everyone to send in a mail message, get them to release > it for FreeBSD, and find 10% actually buy a copy...it would really really > set a bad precedent(sp?), which could hurt us long term... :( > > Indeed. I hope that WP 7.0 is the first of many prev'ly DOS-only or Mac-only ports. The one tool that I would buy is that checkbook/banking program. The way to initiate these ports to FreeBSD is to be willing to buy them. gary kline From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 15:21:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA20704 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from whale.gu.kiev.ua ([194.93.190.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA20678; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from creator.gu.kiev.ua (stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua [194.93.190.3]) by whale.gu.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA22508; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:19:47 +0200 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:19:47 +0200 (EET) From: Andrew Stesin X-Sender: stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua To: Jamie Bowden cc: Amancio Hasty , Christian Fortin , FREEBSD-HACKERS@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-STABLE@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CURRENT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-CHAT@freebsd.org, FREEBSD-ANNOUNCE@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-NCC-RegID: ua.gu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello people, On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > WP 7.0 for $500? You're out of your mind. If the software vendors didn't > rape UNIX users for using there software, maybe more of us would. Gmm. Let's everyone really write the message to Corel, but inserting your own actual idea of how much should it cost for you just go and buy it. Why should you lie, what for? Proposed template: To: wp@ec.camitel.com Subject: WP 7.0 For freeBSD Hello, I'll happily buy WP 7.0 for FreeBSD! _but_ at $67.95, not 495$; and if the price will be $49.95, I will shout at each street corner about such a great offer from Corel to us, free-UNIX users. (Please remember -- free-UNIX users aren't corporations!) Thanks! Name: Joe hacker tel: 2223322 Fax: 3332233 Adress: ... ZIP: ... Substitute your idea of reasonable price for WP 7.0 in the template above. :-) I'm not in US, so my idea of reasonability might differ from yours. BTW -- what will be WP 7.0 price for their winglows97 version? That might give us yet another approximation of price reasonability. -- Best, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 15:37:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA21727 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA21722 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:37:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA12080; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:23:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611202323.QAA12080@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! To: jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu (Jeremy Sigmon) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:23:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Jeremy Sigmon" at Nov 20, 96 02:33:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Suffice it to say, a glass > > of orange juice is about the worst thing you can take for a > > hangover... > > Ok, you got my interest. Today is my birthday so what is the BEST thing > to drink for a hangover? Water. 8-). Oh, you mean *after* you have one... Note: I am not a doctor, this is not medical advice. Meclizine Hcl, 25mg It's an over-the-counter motion sickness remedy. May cause drowsiness in some people. Full relief in about half an hour. Alternately, take two asprin with half a quart of water before going to sleep. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 15:45:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA22304 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22296 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA09471; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:13:33 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611202343.KAA09471@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: from Jeremy Sigmon at "Nov 20, 96 02:33:34 pm" To: jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu (Jeremy Sigmon) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:13:33 +1030 (CST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeremy Sigmon stands accused of saying: > > Suffice it to say, a glass > > of orange juice is about the worst thing you can take for a > > hangover... > > Ok, you got my interest. Today is my birthday so what is the BEST thing > to drink for a hangover? Water. Drink it inbetween whatever else you're drinking; if you're sober you can sit down and work out how much water you want to match the amount of alcohol you're consuming, but I suspect that's not really the object of the exercise. 8) If you're doing that pathetic dribble that americans call beer, I'd guess at perhaps a glass for every 2-3 cans of beer. Drink about half a litre of water before you crash, and then as much as you can comfortably manage when you wake up. Dehydration brought on by alcohol poisoning makes your hangover _much_ worse. Having the extra water around makes the whole alcohol-disposal process work better too. (Side note; it's possible to survive for extended periods on nothing but alcohol and dietary supplements. I haven't seen any good code come out of such a state though, so I advise against it 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 17:28:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25715 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:28:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pat.idt.unit.no (pat.idt.unit.no [129.241.103.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25691 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from idt.unit.no (ikke.idt.unit.no [129.241.111.65]) by pat.idt.unit.no (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA21155; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:27:55 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199611210127.CAA21155@pat.idt.unit.no> To: exidor@superior.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problems with 2.1.6-RELEASE In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:47:08 -0500" References: <199611202247.RAA22028@nimbus.superior.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.06 on Emacs 19.33.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:27:55 +0100 From: Tor Egge Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Two days later: > > > ftp.freebsd.org > > Can't complete download, site is too loaded > > Can't connect > > > ftp2.freebsd.org > > 2.1.6-RELEASE not present > > Mirror looks ancient - recent snapshots of 2.2 missing > > Nothing has changed - 2.1.6-RELEASE still not present > > > ftp3.freebsd.org > > XFree86 missing from 2.1.6 distribution > > Same problem > > > ftp4.freebsd.org > > Does not respond to FTP > > Some problem > > > ftp5.freebsd.org > > XFree86 missing from 2.1.6 distribution > > Same problem > > > ftp6.freebsd.org > > Many files missing from 2.1.6 distribution > > Same problem > > > ftp7.freebsd.org > > unknown host. > > 2.1.6-RELEASE missing from site. Perhaps you will get better results with one of the ftp servers listed here: 1 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.ridder.no /.01/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 2 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 ftp.io.org /.1/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 3 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 ftp.cdrom.com /.16/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 4 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 ftp.radio-msu.net /.3/2.1.6-RELEASE 5 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.demos.su /.4/unix/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 6 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.digex.net /.6/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 7 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.tokyonet.ad.jp /.9/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 8 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.demon.co.uk /.d2/unix/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 9 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.tas.gov.au /.disk2/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 10 drwxr-xr-x 1.0K 1996 Nov 18 ftp.cs.titech.ac.jp /.os/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 11 drwxr-xr-x 1.0K 1996 Nov 17 ftp.cs.titech.ac.jp /.os/FreeBSD-nonUS/2.1.6-RELEASE 12 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 19 minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au /BSD/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 13 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.iij.ad.jp /FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 14 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.physics.usyd.edu.au /FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 15 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.doc.ic.ac.uk /Mirrors/ftp.cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 16 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 freefall.cdrom.com /host/wcarchive/archive/pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 17 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 ftp.coppe.ufrj.br /mirror/ravel/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 18 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.cs.ubc.ca /mirror3/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 19 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de /mirrors/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 20 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 ftp.space.edu /mirrors/ftp.freebsd.org/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 21 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.sunsite.auc.dk /mirrors/ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 22 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.icm.edu.pl /mnt/350/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 23 lrwxr-xr-x 27 1996 Nov 17 ftp.physics.usyd.edu.au /old/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 24 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.jaist.ac.jp /pub/.1/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 25 lrwxrwsr-x 34 1996 Nov 18 ftp.coppe.ufrj.br /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 26 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.cslab.vt.edu /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 27 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.de.freebsd.org /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 28 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.eos.hokudai.ac.jp /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 29 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.internat.freebsd.org /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 30 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.luth.se /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 31 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 19 ftp.sea.uct.ac.za /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 32 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.stack.urc.tue.nl /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 33 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.sw.ru /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 34 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.zit.th-darmstadt.de /pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 35 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.tu-clausthal.de /pub/bsd/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 36 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.ccu.edu.tw /pub/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 37 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 ftp.rdrop.com /pub/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 38 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.phys.keio.ac.jp /pub/mirror/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 39 drwxr-xr-x 2.0K 1996 Nov 17 ftp.uni-magdeburg.de /pub/mirror/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 40 drwxrwxr-x 8.0K 1996 Nov 17 ftp.funet.fi /pub/mirrors/ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 41 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.cdsnet.net /pub/mirrors/unix/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 42 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.u-aizu.ac.jp /pub/os/./FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 43 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.nis.co.jp /pub/os/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 44 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.cr-df.rnp.br /pub/packages/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 45 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.cso.uiuc.edu /pub/systems/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 46 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 www.unimelb.edu.au /pub/unix/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 47 drwxrwxr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.ricoh.co.jp /pub1/os/BSD/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 48 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 16 ftp.ibp.fr /pub14/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 49 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.cs.cuhk.hk /pub4/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 50 drwxr-xr-x 1.0K 1996 Nov 18 ftp.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp /pub7/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 51 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 17 ftp.wustl.edu /systems/unix/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 52 drwxrwxr-x 1.0K 1996 Nov 18 ftp.vein.hu /tas/linux/freebsd/2.1.6-RELEASE 53 drwxr-xr-x 512 1996 Nov 18 ftp.info.au /unix/FreeBSD/2.1.6-RELEASE 54 drwxrwsr-x 1.0K 1996 Nov 17 ftp.nl.net /vol/2/freebsd-core/2.1.6-RELEASE 55 drwxrwsr-x 1.0K 1996 Nov 18 ftp.nl.net /vol/2/freebsd-crypto/2.1.6-RELEASE - Tor Egge From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 18:10:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA26871 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexgen.HiWAAY.net (max2-194.HiWAAY.net [206.104.22.194]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA26866 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by nexgen.HiWAAY.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA00316 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:10:22 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:08:54 -0600 (CST) Organization: Amateur Radio N4HHE, Madison, AL. From: David Kelly To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: This caught my eye... Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://luke.rz.uni-konstanz.de/woven/linux-prog.html ...sure has a familiar looking mascot. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@tomcat1.tbe.com (wk), dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 18:33:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28111 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexgen.HiWAAY.net (max2-194.HiWAAY.net [206.104.22.194]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA28100 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by nexgen.HiWAAY.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA00335; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:33:10 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611202302.PAA02890@athena.tera.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:17:29 -0600 (CST) Organization: Amateur Radio N4HHE, Madison, AL. From: David Kelly To: Gary Kline Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Cc: FREEBSD-CHAT@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (massively trimmed the address list on this thread) On 21:02:20 Gary Kline wrote: > > Indeed. I hope that WP 7.0 is the first of many prev'ly > DOS-only or Mac-only ports. The one tool that I would > buy is that checkbook/banking program. Many months ago CBB was recommended. Forgot about it until now. Went looking and found it: http://www.menet.umn.edu/~clolson/cbb Looks pretty good. Even says it can import Quicken data. I tried the online demo. Got a TCL message saying another application was already doing something with Grab. Whatever that means. Had never run X over a 28.8k modem before... interesting. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@tomcat1.tbe.com (wk), dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 18:45:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA29063 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29049 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lassie.eunet.fi by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA16889 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:14:21 -0800 Received: from dirty.cute.fi by lassie.eunet.fi with SMTP id AA13260 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:12:25 +0200 Received: from mama (user-103-157.dial.inet.fi [194.251.247.157]) by dirty.cute.fi (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id DAA04244; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:12:23 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <3293AC74.1DBC@cute.fi> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:12:20 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Yrj=E4n=E4?= Rankka Organization: Zonk =?iso-8859-1?Q?Viestint=E4?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamie Bowden wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > > > > Suffice it to say, a glass > > > of orange juice is about the worst thing you can take for a > > > hangover... > > > > Ok, you got my interest. Today is my birthday so what is the BEST thing > > to drink for a hangover? > > > > Water. > Nahh, Fernet-Branca's the stuff. That is, if tokes are not available ;) > Jamie Bowden > > Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 18:49:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA29407 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29401 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA19302 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:25:10 -0800 Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id LAA09997; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:50:20 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611210120.LAA09997@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: <199611210035.RAA12230@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 20, 96 05:35:15 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:50:19 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > Realize that I'm not speaking from personal experience, since I have > a dietary allergy to alcohol (I guess that blows everyone's theories > on me being drunk while posting... 8-)). Hmm. Listening to your litany of physical complaints, I have this vision of you as a brain in a little clear plasic box, probably with an ethernet jack somewhere. Kind of like Orac, now that I think about it, which is really quite appropiate 8) > Terry Lambert (If you've never seen Blake's Seven, don't ask 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 18:57:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA29924 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29913 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.Artisoft.COM by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA11791 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:52:54 -0800 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA12230; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:35:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611210035.RAA12230@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:35:15 -0700 (MST) Cc: jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611202343.KAA09471@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 21, 96 10:13:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Drink about half a litre of water before you crash, and then as much as > you can comfortably manage when you wake up. Dehydration brought on by > alcohol poisoning makes your hangover _much_ worse. Having the extra > water around makes the whole alcohol-disposal process work better too. Dehydration is the worst problem... as you say, address it before you crash. Many hangovers are the result of impurities other than the alcohol also causing histamine reactions. Red wine was recently reported to cause hangovers worse than white wine, for instance, because of the impurities. Most wines contain sulfites as preservatives. If you are allergic to the Sulfa family the drugs, you should probably not drink at all. At best, you are *guaranteed* a hangover. The motion sickness remedy I recommended will quiet stomach upset, headache, and vomiting (if you get that drunk) the morning after. Realize that I'm not speaking from personal experience, since I have a dietary allergy to alcohol (I guess that blows everyone's theories on me being drunk while posting... 8-)). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 19:57:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA02500 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from diamond.xtalwind.net (diamond.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA02494 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (h-admit.x31.infi.net [206.27.115.37]) by diamond.xtalwind.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA07611; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:56:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:57:02 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@localhost To: Jamie Bowden cc: Jeremy Sigmon , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > > > > Suffice it to say, a glass > > > of orange juice is about the worst thing you can take for a > > > hangover... > > > > Ok, you got my interest. Today is my birthday so what is the BEST thing > > to drink for a hangover? > > > > Water. While you're drinking. That way the alcohol has something to absorb other than your body's 'water'. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@onyx.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 20:11:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03068 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03051; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.7.6/8.7.3) id GAA22289; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 06:11:20 +0200 (SAT) From: John Hay Message-Id: <199611210411.GAA22289@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: Problems with 2.1.6-RELEASE In-Reply-To: <199611202247.RAA22028@nimbus.superior.net> from Christopher Masto at "Nov 20, 96 05:47:08 pm" To: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 06:11:20 +0200 (SAT) Cc: exidor@superior.net, chat@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL24 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well we're not the fastest site in the world, but 2.1.6 is on ftp.za.freebsd.org from hours after the anouncement. You will also get the international version of the crypto code there. :-) John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za > Two days later: > > > ftp.freebsd.org > > Can't complete download, site is too loaded > > Can't connect > > > ftp2.freebsd.org > > 2.1.6-RELEASE not present > > Mirror looks ancient - recent snapshots of 2.2 missing > > Nothing has changed - 2.1.6-RELEASE still not present > > > ftp3.freebsd.org > > XFree86 missing from 2.1.6 distribution > > Same problem > > > ftp4.freebsd.org > > Does not respond to FTP > > Some problem > > > ftp5.freebsd.org > > XFree86 missing from 2.1.6 distribution > > Same problem > > > ftp6.freebsd.org > > Many files missing from 2.1.6 distribution > > Same problem > > > ftp7.freebsd.org > > unknown host. > > 2.1.6-RELEASE missing from site. > > Maybe the reason Linux is more popular has something to do with the > near-impossibility of obtaining FreeBSD from the net. > > (And thanks, I've already got it - I'm posting this to point out the > problem, not to ask for help) > -- > Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net > chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com > > On Wives, those who bark: > The Faithful watchdog or the good wife standing at the door to welcome the > home-coming master with honest bark.. > - small town newspaper editor in Wisconsin, mid-1800s. > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 21:15:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA05644 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA05636 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02962; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:14:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611210514.VAA02962@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Gary Kline cc: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier), cfortin@ec.camitel.com, FREEBSD-CHAT@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:02:20 PST." <199611202302.PAA02890@athena.tera.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:14:56 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Gary Kline : > According to Marc G. Fournier: > > On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > > Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do > > > so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) > > > > > > > I *really* hate to put a wrench in the works...but *please* do not > > send a message to Coral if its only to bolster the numbers. I would > > really hate for everyone to send in a mail message, get them to release > > it for FreeBSD, and find 10% actually buy a copy...it would really really > > set a bad precedent(sp?), which could hurt us long term... :( Well, this is a chicken and an egg type problem. In this case, WP has to come in first -- then we plaster everywhere that is available for FreeBSD. I for one I am willing to buy a copy just to promote other vendors to port apps to FreeBSD. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 21:19:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA05819 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA05782; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainserver ([24.112.2.108]) by bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <795392(1)>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:19:24 -0500 Message-ID: <32939EF1.11F6@utoronto.ca> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:14:41 -0500 From: Edward Ing X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wp@ec.camitel.com CC: chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, ports@freebsd.org Subject: WP 7.0 For FreeBSD and Corel Suite Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I'll happily buy WP 7.0 for FreeBSD _but_ at $90 Canadian, not $495; and if the price were $70 Canadian, I will shout on each street corner about such a great offer from Corel to us free-UNIX users. (Please remember -- free-UNIX users aren't corporations! Furthermore I would happily buy the Corel Perfect Suite for $180 CAN, and if the price were $70 Canadian, I will paint my chest with the Corel Wordperfect logo and flash it to everyone I meet. But more seriously, since we are on the subject of porting the Corel Perfect suite, I should tell you of a TOTALLY new marketing strategy which Corel should take with regard to its office suite. I was going to save it for my cover-letter on my resume, but what the heck, here it is: Microsoft's Office Suite is entrenched in the market and it is very unlikely that anyone will dislodge it, though one may gain a profitable market segment. Secondly, Microsoft with its monopolistic practices will always have an advantage in developing such application software because it is the designer of the operating system on which the applications will run. Short of a marketing blunder Microsoft will rule the Suite market for Win95, WinNT, and Win3.1. Then what is the weakness in Microsoft's marketing strategy which can be exploited? -- The weakness of their OS -- namely WinNT. The weakness of NT is that it is not entrenched in the the server/workstation marketplace. It is steadily gaining acceptance, but it is not entrenched. If another equally or more powerful and significantly cheaper (even free operating system) were available, it could gain acceptance readily (though probably with considerable marketing effort, at first, to enlighten buyers.) If this new operating system were to be significantly competive with WindowsNT, then the market would be wide open for all vendors of Suite applications willing to develop applications for this new operating system. (An if one vendor were to have a lead in the development cycle, it might gain a significant market share. ;-) ) There is such an operating system and it is FreeBSD UNIX (or Linux though the latter's unstructured development strategy makes it less stable). It has full internet capabilites. On an intel 386 machine it (FreeBSD) can serve as a workstation and as a server. Also it can function as a router. It comes with and runs X-windows applications. Thousands of pieces of software run on it and hundreds of these applications are included in the initial purchase. It comes with NFS and NIS and comes with a LAN Manager server software (Samba). Furthermore it can turn your old 386s and 486s into an intranet server. A server running FreeBSD can act as a LAN Manager server, a http server, a database server and as an application work station (and as JAVA SERVER AND CLIENT with some work) at the same time. With the existence of this software there is really no need for anyone to Pay $800 US to get and NT sever when he can get this equally, if not more, powerful operating system, for $24.95 on one CD-ROM or for free off the internet. There are difficulties with FreeBSD from an ease-of-use point of view and from the point of view of someone looking for compatibility with the latest whiz-bang gadgets, but these deficiencies can be overcome by the following marketing and software development strategy. If Corel is serious about dislodging Microsoft from its near monopolistic dominance in the Suite's market, it might consider doing the following: 1. Develop its commercial office suite software for FreeBSD or Linux (or both) and market it for a reasonable price. 2. Commit software engineers to participate in developing FREE software to make FreeBSD (or Linux) a more manageable and useable for UNIX novices. This would include the development of a better (and free) X-Windows manager, the development of an easier installation and configuration process for both UNIX server components and widely used application servers (--actually the UNIX installation is quite easy as it is, but it probably can be improved--) , and the development of drivers for the latest and greatest devices. 3. Commit marketing personnel and technical staff to sell the virtues of the newly packaged FreeBSD OS and Corel-WP office suite bundle and provide technical support. This incredible operating system should and can be included FREE as part of the WP software, or office suite software. Corel might even adapt FreeBSD and market it as a central JAVA server for its new upcoming JAVA office suite. This would be the first complete workstation/server, internet/intranet ready operating system and office suite bundle solution, as far as I know. (Corel might even be able to get a foot hold into the database system market.) Now, I must make some comments on item 2. First, Corel may be reluctant to participate in developing freely distributable software but this is not new. Sun's development of Java, Microsofts development of Explorer, and Apple's participation in the development of Linux for PowerMac demonstrate the advantage of developing free software. It allows profit-making corporations to get foot holds into new potential markets. Corel's participation in the development of free components for FreeBSD will help make FreeBSD more widely useable and in turn will provide Corel with a new market for its Office Suite for FreeBSD. Secondly, a better windows manger incorporated with a graphical system manger will make FreeBSD as user friendly as WindowsNT for those with command-line phobia. Hard core command-line UNIX addicts can still use their UNIX shells. Thirdly, putting considerable resource into the development and testing of drivers will make FreeBSD useable to a wide segment of the intel market for the present and for the future and thus create wide market for office suite applications. This is a viable strategy, if Corel is willing to put some resources behind it. By this strategy Corel can exploint the chink in Microsofts armour. (And, heck, if you need someone to hire to help you get this done, e-mail me.) Edward Ing. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 22:48:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09188 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA09183 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id BAA26001; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:48:12 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:48:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199611210648.BAA26001@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: Joel Ray Holveck To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de CC: rob@arpa.COM, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <9611200926.AA03350@wavehh.hanse.de> (cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de) Subject: Re: benchmark Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 1) All the people you can hire to do work on NT I know (no matter whether free, working for a consultant or being employees) are ignorant in a way you can't do any serious project with them. The real reason here: think to yourself, do I want to hire somebody who has chosen NT as their computer path, or somebody who has chosen Unix? Remember: NT is designed as an easy-to-use networking base. Unix is designed as a powerful networking base. (I'm just talking about where the effort is going now, not about history or the way things actually are.) This way of thinking helps deter a lot of problems. 2) It's not only NT itself that offers non-optimal solutions to a large number of problems. Using NT means you use all those junk applications that are worse by a large factor. If you are working on NT, you will be surprised how fast you'll get forced to use Visual Basic, Borland development tools and some braindead, simple-minded, closed database "toolkit". If you're speaking of what's availible, I disagree. There are flexible, powerful compilers around for Win32. If you're speaking of what's normally used, I agree. In the Windows world, easy-to-use is the rule. For end users, that's wonderful, but for programmers (and those who consider themselves programmers because they can use Paradox), it's a trap. Even so, consider: when I first started working for my present employer this year, I was assigned to write a hardware fault tracking system, and given a database and screen library. The library was written for DOS and ported to Unix. I don't know when it was written, but it was in K&R C. You remember; no prototypes, no type-checking, etc. Mind you, like most of us, I cut my teeth on K&R C, and don't mind it at all; I'm just giving you an idea of age. Most of the windowing routines had been mauled to pieces by our locals, who didn't understand curses, nor the original software, nor Unix programming concepts. (Said locals have since left.) Half of the routines didn't work, and those that didn't were misdocumented. I was given a menuing system written as subroutines in a .h file ("ld? make? Object files? What the **** is all that?") to replace the one that came with the library. After I had written my first version and was told our policy on hardware repairs (which I had not been able to extract from my coworkers when I started the project), and seen (and somewhat debugged) the terrible horror that I was having to work with, I recompiled it without windowing routines, wrote my own library on a modern ncurses, and started working a new version of the tracking system. My boss told me that I was to use the library I had previously eschewed, because "it's the way we do it here," and if we needed to do it any other way "David would have told us" (David is our resident star programmer). David was using a version of the library that was two major revisions later, on Windows, and spoke of the Unix version I was using with the same disdain as I had. However, he had never seen it fit to complain, since he wasn't developing for Unix, so the library, buggy as it was, became law. The moral: sometimes, even in the land of milk and honey, Management still will give you vinegar for wine. 3) In the windows world, you are usually not longer in a position to change the implementation of a tool you use for a project. [insert Stallmanesque sermon here] On Unix, I have a nightly script running that adds the subjects of all threads spread over more than N newsgroups to my killfile (most useful program I've ever written). How the heck can I do so on NT? This is really again the design philosophy. Unix is written around easy and powerful programming. NT is written around market shares. That's life. Cheers, Joel From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 20 23:59:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA11416 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11411 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (8.7.6/8.7.3) id RAA29247; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:59:11 +1000 Received: by ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.7.5/DEVETIR-E0.3a) id SAA29659; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:02:40 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:02:40 +1000 (EST) From: Stephen McKay Message-Id: <199611210802.SAA29659@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au> To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: benchmark X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) wrote: [Martin beats on NT for a while, then, surprisingly, has a go at Unix too] >Don't understand me wrong, Unix is junk, the whole concept to dump >output as loose ascii data to stadout and rescan it in the next pipe >citizen is ... l can't find words. If I read you right, you are complaining about the ability to easily supply the output from one program as input for another program. This is so amazingly useful, such a wondrously flexible tool, that I am stunned that anyone could slight it. Compare this vs the monolithic can't-get-at-the- workings-of-anything stuff typical of DOS/Windows. If you keep talking like this you'll never get a free beer out of me! Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 02:04:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA15383 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA15375 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:04:49 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vQVzw-000QrtC; Thu, 21 Nov 96 11:04 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id LAA03369; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:00:25 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611211000.LAA03369@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: <199611210035.RAA12230@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 20, 96 05:35:15 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:00:24 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > Many hangovers are the result of impurities other than the alcohol > also causing histamine reactions. Red wine was recently reported > to cause hangovers worse than white wine, for instance, because of > the impurities. That's recent? In this part of the world, where people perhaps drink more wine, it's well-known (well, I know it, anyway :-). > Most wines contain sulfites as preservatives. Do they? I know US wines often taste of sulphites, but over here they're either used in significantly lower quantities, or they're prohibited. In Germany, I'd guess they're used in significantly lower quantities, and the public is told they're prohibited. > The motion sickness remedy I recommended will quiet stomach upset, > headache, and vomiting (if you get that drunk) the morning after. How safe is this? > Realize that I'm not speaking from personal experience, since I have > a dietary allergy to alcohol (I guess that blows everyone's theories > on me being drunk while posting... 8-)). Damn! Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 02:50:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA17253 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.Chemie.FU-Berlin.DE [160.45.24.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA17248 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Thu, 21 Nov 96 11:49 MET Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au id ; Thu, 21 Nov 96 11:49 MET Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26198; Thu, 21 Nov 96 11:46:35 +0100 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9611211046.AA26198@wavehh.hanse.de> Subject: Re: benchmark To: syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au (Stephen McKay) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:46:34 +0100 (MET) Cc: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au In-Reply-To: <199611210802.SAA29659@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au> from "Stephen McKay" at Nov 21, 96 06:02:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) wrote: > > [Martin beats on NT for a while, then, surprisingly, has a go at Unix too] > > >Don't understand me wrong, Unix is junk, the whole concept to dump > >output as loose ascii data to stadout and rescan it in the next pipe > >citizen is ... l can't find words. > > If I read you right, you are complaining about the ability to easily supply > the output from one program as input for another program. This is so No, no. What I'm complaining about is that this communication is pure Ascii without any layout specification, not to speak if communication using real "objects" with type information. > amazingly useful, such a wondrously flexible tool, that I am stunned that > anyone could slight it. Compare this vs the monolithic can't-get-at-the- > workings-of-anything stuff typical of DOS/Windows. This was a misunderstanding. Of course I hate tools that do all their work on their own. While the Unix way is a solution to this problem, it is a quick-and-dirty one. It's the only way to get my work done and a real reason why I use Unix, but I don't have to pretend it's perfect. > If you keep talking like this you'll never get a free beer out of me! I more in favor of sugar-containing drinks, but since this has been a misunderstanding anyway :-) Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://cracauer.cons.org Fax +49 40 522 85 36 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 05:27:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA22947 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 05:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA22942 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 05:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21007-2730>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:27:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:26:58 -0500 From: Cat Okita To: Terry Lambert cc: Jeremy Sigmon , grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In-Reply-To: <199611202323.QAA12080@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > Oh, you mean *after* you have one... > Alternately, take two asprin with half a quart of water before going > to sleep. *grin*...I've always found that keeping something like gatorade around helps too...(but then again, I almost never get hangovers...so :>) cheers! cat From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 05:45:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA23750 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 05:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA23745 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 05:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA20149 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:45:18 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:44:59 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA24414; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:44:51 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) id NAA02565; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:43:40 GMT To: Greg Lehey Cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) References: <199611211000.LAA03369@freebie.lemis.de> From: Paul Richards Date: 21 Nov 1996 13:43:39 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:00:24 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <57u3qj8sxg.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 43 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Many hangovers are the result of impurities other than the alcohol > > also causing histamine reactions. Red wine was recently reported > > to cause hangovers worse than white wine, for instance, because of > > the impurities. > > That's recent? In this part of the world, where people perhaps drink > more wine, it's well-known (well, I know it, anyway :-). I think people outside the US generally drink more period. At least in the social sense anyway i.e. more people drink alcohol as a matter of course in their normal lives as opposed to serious alcohol problems which the US has its fair share of. So, if I was going to ask someone about how to drink a lot it'd be the folks down the local rugby club but since getting into a rugby club generally involves being able to consume vast quantities of alcohol anyway it not something that's often discussed due to the fact that people are too busy, well, drinking :-) Since they don't play rugby in the US, or at least, they haven't been doing so for long and they aren't very good at it, I doubt they're in any way an authority on serious social drinking. On the other hand, as far as I know the Germans don't play rugby at all and they are experienced drinkers. Maybe they've spent their time watching us rugby playing nations and realised that the essence of the game is consuming vast quantities of lager afterward and being the inovative nation that they are they have noted that the actual playing of the game is an inefficiency and simply removed that part of the process thus making them a world leader in the methodology of alcohol consumption :-) Hmm, this rambling may have something to do with the fact that the dept went to the pub for lunch.... -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 06:35:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA26076 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 06:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA26069 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 06:35:12 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vQaCJ-000QqrC; Thu, 21 Nov 96 15:33 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id PAA00663; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:27:52 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611211427.PAA00663@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: <57u3qj8sxg.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> from Paul Richards at "Nov 21, 96 01:43:39 pm" To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:27:52 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by freebie.lemis.de id PAA00663 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards writes: > Greg Lehey writes: > >> Terry Lambert writes: >>> Many hangovers are the result of impurities other than the alcohol >>> also causing histamine reactions. Red wine was recently reported >>> to cause hangovers worse than white wine, for instance, because of >>> the impurities. >> >> That's recent? In this part of the world, where people perhaps drink >> more wine, it's well-known (well, I know it, anyway :-). > > I think people outside the US generally drink more period. At least in > the social sense anyway i.e. more people drink alcohol as a matter of > course in their normal lives as opposed to serious alcohol problems > which the US has its fair share of. Hmmm. Yes, I know more teetotallers or light drinkers in the US than elsewhere, and I've seen my share of alcoholics there, too, but then, I've seen my share of alcoholics over here as well. I used to have a right load of boozers working (if that's the word) for me. I think the big difference between the US and Europe (I don't think Canada's really on either side) is that many US Americans have a real load of guilt pumped into them, and that fashions their drinking habits. > So, if I was going to ask someone about how to drink a lot it'd be the > folks down the local rugby club but since getting into a rugby club > generally involves being able to consume vast quantities of alcohol > anyway it not something that's often discussed due to the fact that > people are too busy, well, drinking :-) There's a case in point. I don't know what UK rugby clubs are like any more, but in my day what they did there was not considered "social drinking". > Since they don't play rugby in the US, or at least, they haven't been > doing so for long and they aren't very good at it, I doubt they're in > any way an authority on serious social drinking. > > On the other hand, as far as I know the Germans don't play rugby at > all and they are experienced drinkers. Maybe they've spent their time > watching us rugby playing nations and realised that the essence of the > game is consuming vast quantities of lager afterward and being the > inovative nation that they are they have noted that the actual playing = of > the game is an inefficiency and simply removed that part of the > process thus making them a world leader in the methodology of alcohol > consumption :-) Hmmm. There may even be some truth in that. Binding, one of Frankfurt's two big breweries, recently introduced something they call "lager" (and made it clear that it was a drink from English-speaking countries, most probably not in accordance with the purity decree of 1536). But Germans have been drinking beer long before that, they just optimized the matter: they found out how to do it without playing rugby. Instead, they have other traditional methods. For example, on cold, foggy November mornings they grab their shotguns, Flachm=E4nner (what's that in English?), a keg of beer and head off into the forest to go "hunting". It's surprising how few accidents there are. > Hmm, this rambling may have something to do with the fact that the > dept went to the pub for lunch.... No, couldn't have been. Grog From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 07:46:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA29453 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.kuwait.net (root@access.kuwait.net [194.54.234.234]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA29437 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost(really [199.173.153.182]) by access.kuwait.net via sendmail with smtp (ident shadows using rfc1413) id for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:44:03 +0300 (GMT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #16 built 1996-Aug-3) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:46:38 +0200 (GMT) From: Thamer Al-Herbish X-Sender: shadows@localhost To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This caught my eye... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, David Kelly wrote: > > http://luke.rz.uni-konstanz.de/woven/linux-prog.html > > ...sure has a familiar looking mascot. is that an exact copy? it looks like some cheap imitiation done in Xpaint. ... its funny its on a Linux apps page. Thats so hilarious. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 07:52:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA29817 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:52:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA29806 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21007-8300>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:51:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:51:57 -0500 From: Cat Okita To: Greg Lehey cc: Paul Richards , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: <199611211427.PAA00663@freebie.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Hmmm. Yes, I know more teetotallers or light drinkers in the US than > elsewhere, and I've seen my share of alcoholics there, too, but then, > I've seen my share of alcoholics over here as well. I used to have a > right load of boozers working (if that's the word) for me. I think > the big difference between the US and Europe (I don't think Canada's > really on either side) is that many US Americans have a real load of > guilt pumped into them, and that fashions their drinking habits. More to the point, alcahol seems to be a normal part of life in many other countries/cultures. A glass of wine with dinner, or a pint with lunch is nothing exceptional in many places in the world. A bottle of rye with dinner would be strange there, as well as here. No kidding about the guilt though! cheers! cat From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 08:25:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01879 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01859 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:24:54 -0800 (PST) From: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43992; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:30:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:30:56 -0500 (EST) To: Edward Ing Cc: wp@ec.camitel.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WP 7.0 For FreeBSD and Corel Suite In-Reply-To: <32939EF1.11F6@utoronto.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We, FreeUNIX users, are excited about our OS and it`s advantages over most other commercial systems: free distribution (with sources!), standarization, compatibility, excellent performance and "openness" in general. I have to admit, though, that FreeBSD, by itself, has still not gained a share of the market that guarantees a good profit.FreeBSD, in particular, is a very strong server but still lacks some of the userland features common to WIN95 (we are working on it, don`t worry). I wouldn`t doubt, anyway, that FreeBSD and Linux (added) have more users than OS2, and that FreeBSD is gaining users at a higher rate than both Linux and OS2. Our strategy to gain position in the market consists of two parts: *An excellent emulation of the, very popular, Linux OS, (BSDIs and some SCO bins also run fine) and *Java support. I understand that many people simplisticly associate Free software with low quality and users that won`t BUY applications. Both concepts are false nowadays, but it does mean we expect a really high quality from commercial applications. The OS is clearly doing it`s part, but we need to more things to overthrow the "Big Brother" in Washington (state). *More commercial applications: Matlab, Mathematica, and some others already are available. * A very aggressive commercial campaign: students and educational institutions receive an 80% discount from MS (What do they want to take us today?). I don`t doubt we are on a very special moment: Internet took MS off guard, either we take advantage of this situation now, are we can all be looking for jobs in Microsoft in the (possibly near) future. Pedro. On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Edward Ing wrote: > Hello, > > I'll happily buy WP 7.0 for FreeBSD _but_ at $90 Canadian, not $495; > and if the price were $70 Canadian, I will shout on each street corner > about such a great offer from Corel to us free-UNIX users. (Please > remember -- free-UNIX users aren't corporations! > > Furthermore I would happily buy the Corel Perfect Suite for $180 CAN, > and if the price were $70 Canadian, I will paint my chest with the > Corel Wordperfect logo and flash it to everyone I meet. > > But more seriously, since we are on the subject of porting the Corel > Perfect suite, I > should tell you of a TOTALLY new marketing strategy which Corel should > take > with regard to its office suite. I was going to save it for my > cover-letter on my resume, > but what the heck, here it is: > > Microsoft's Office Suite is entrenched in the market and it is very > unlikely > that anyone will dislodge it, though one may gain a profitable market > segment. > Secondly, Microsoft with its monopolistic practices will always have an > advantage > in developing such application software because it is the designer of > the operating > system on which the applications will run. Short of a marketing > blunder Microsoft will rule the Suite market for Win95, WinNT, and > Win3.1. > > Then what is the weakness in Microsoft's marketing strategy which can be > exploited? -- The weakness of their OS -- namely WinNT. > The weakness of NT is that it is not entrenched in the the > server/workstation > marketplace. It is steadily gaining acceptance, but it is not > entrenched. If another > equally or more powerful and significantly cheaper (even free > operating system) were available, it could gain acceptance readily > (though probably with considerable marketing effort, at first, to > enlighten buyers.) If this new operating system were to be significantly > competive with WindowsNT, then the market would be wide open for all > vendors of Suite applications willing to develop applications for this > new operating system. (An if one vendor were to have a lead in the > development cycle, it might gain a significant market share. ;-) ) > > There is such an operating system and it is FreeBSD UNIX (or Linux > though the latter's unstructured development strategy makes it less > stable). > It has full internet capabilites. On an intel 386 machine it (FreeBSD) > can serve as a workstation and as a server. Also it can function > as a router. It comes with and runs X-windows applications. Thousands > of pieces of software run on it and hundreds of these applications > are included in the initial purchase. It comes with NFS and NIS and > comes with a LAN Manager server software (Samba). Furthermore it can > turn your old 386s and 486s into an intranet server. A server running > FreeBSD can act as a LAN Manager server, a http server, a database > server and > as an application work station (and as JAVA SERVER AND CLIENT with some > work) at the same time. With the existence of this software there > is really no need for anyone to Pay $800 US to get and NT sever when > he can get this equally, if not more, powerful operating system, > for $24.95 on one CD-ROM or for free off the internet. There > are difficulties with FreeBSD from an ease-of-use point of view and > from the point of view of someone looking for compatibility with the > latest whiz-bang gadgets, but these deficiencies can be overcome by the > following marketing and software development strategy. > > If Corel is serious about dislodging Microsoft from its near > monopolistic > dominance in the Suite's market, it might consider doing the following: > > 1. Develop its commercial office suite software for FreeBSD or Linux > (or both) and market it for a reasonable price. > > 2. Commit software engineers to participate in developing FREE software > to make FreeBSD (or Linux) a more manageable and useable for UNIX > novices. This would include the development of a better (and free) > X-Windows manager, the development of an easier installation and > configuration process for both UNIX server components and widely > used application servers (--actually the UNIX installation is > quite easy as it is, but it probably can be improved--) , and the > development of drivers for the latest and greatest devices. > > 3. Commit marketing personnel and technical staff to sell the virtues > of the newly packaged FreeBSD OS and Corel-WP office suite bundle and > provide > technical support. This incredible operating system should and can be > included FREE > as part of the WP software, or office suite software. Corel might even > adapt FreeBSD and market it as a central JAVA server for its new > upcoming > JAVA office suite. This would be the first complete workstation/server, > internet/intranet > ready operating system and office suite bundle solution, as far as I > know. > (Corel might even be able to get a foot hold into the database system > market.) > > > Now, I must make some comments on item 2. > > First, Corel may be reluctant to participate in developing freely > distributable software but this is not new. Sun's development of Java, > Microsofts development of Explorer, and Apple's participation in the > development of Linux for PowerMac demonstrate the advantage of > developing > free software. It allows profit-making corporations to get foot holds > into new potential markets. Corel's participation in the development of > free components for FreeBSD will help make FreeBSD more widely useable > and in turn will provide Corel with a new market for its Office Suite > for FreeBSD. > > Secondly, a better windows manger incorporated with a graphical system > manger will make FreeBSD as user friendly as WindowsNT for those with > command-line phobia. Hard core command-line UNIX addicts can still use > their UNIX shells. > > Thirdly, putting considerable resource into the development and testing > of > drivers will make FreeBSD useable to a wide segment of the intel market > for the present and for the future and thus create wide market for > office > suite applications. > > This is a viable strategy, if Corel is willing to put some resources > behind > it. By this strategy Corel can exploint the chink in Microsofts armour. > > (And, heck, if you need someone to hire to help you get this done, > e-mail me.) > > > Edward Ing. > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 08:28:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02127 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA02098 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA01410 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA08521; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:24:43 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199611211624.SAA08521@grackle.grondar.za> To: Cat Okita cc: Greg Lehey , Paul Richards , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:24:43 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Cat Okita wrote: > On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > More to the point, alcahol seems to be a normal part of life in many other > countries/cultures. A glass of wine with dinner, or a pint with lunch is > nothing exceptional in many places in the world. > > A bottle of rye with dinner would be strange there, as well as here. Yup ZA has these, and also the traditional "braaivleis", AKA a barbeque. At a "Braai" (rhyme with "dry") copious quantities of lightly sanded, charred chops, boerewors ("farmer's sausage" Mmmm :-) and of course BEER (99% of the time Lager made by a large company that practically has a monopoly on ZA beer production) are consumed. At the end of the day - the "na-verdriet" (hangover) is slept off while the women clean up ]:->. Beer bellies, high colesterol and heart attacks are popular in South Africa. M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 08:43:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA04048 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.PII.COM (pii.com [192.77.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04039 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from PII.COM by PII.COM (4.1/SMI-4.4) id AA14597; Thu, 21 Nov 96 08:42:09 PST Received: by smtp with Microsoft Mail id <32948618@smtp>; Thu, 21 Nov 96 08:40:56 PST From: Robert Clark To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 08:41:00 PST Message-Id: <32948618@smtp> Encoding: 43 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Some of the health food stores are carying low sulfite wines. Feedback from people allergic to sulphites seem to be good. [RC] ---------- From: owner-freebsd-chat To: msmith Cc: jsigmon; terry; grog; chat Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) Date: Wednesday, November 20, 1996 5:35PM > Drink about half a litre of water before you crash, and then as much as > you can comfortably manage when you wake up. Dehydration brought on by > alcohol poisoning makes your hangover _much_ worse. Having the extra > water around makes the whole alcohol-disposal process work better too. Dehydration is the worst problem... as you say, address it before you crash. Many hangovers are the result of impurities other than the alcohol also causing histamine reactions. Red wine was recently reported to cause hangovers worse than white wine, for instance, because of the impurities. Most wines contain sulfites as preservatives. If you are allergic to the Sulfa family the drugs, you should probably not drink at all. At best, you are *guaranteed* a hangover. The motion sickness remedy I recommended will quiet stomach upset, headache, and vomiting (if you get that drunk) the morning after. Realize that I'm not speaking from personal experience, since I have a dietary allergy to alcohol (I guess that blows everyone's theories on me being drunk while posting... 8-)). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 09:35:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07380 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.Chemie.FU-Berlin.DE [160.45.24.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA07155 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Thu, 21 Nov 96 18:30 MET Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org id ; Thu, 21 Nov 96 15:41 MET Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27474; Thu, 21 Nov 96 15:40:35 +0100 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 15:40:35 +0100 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9611211440.AA27474@wavehh.hanse.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This caught my eye... References: Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >http://luke.rz.uni-konstanz.de/woven/linux-prog.html >...sure has a familiar looking mascot. I wrote to the author and he said this is an old page. The newer version at http://www.fokus.gmd.de/linux has the cannonical bird. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://cracauer.cons.org Fax +49405228536 "As far as I'm concerned, if something is so complicated that you can't ex- plain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway"- Calvin From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 11:02:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA11273 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA11266 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13600; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:47:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611211847.LAA13600@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:47:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611210120.LAA09997@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 21, 96 11:50:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Realize that I'm not speaking from personal experience, since I have > > a dietary allergy to alcohol (I guess that blows everyone's theories > > on me being drunk while posting... 8-)). > > Hmm. Listening to your litany of physical complaints, I have this > vision of you as a brain in a little clear plasic box, probably with > an ethernet jack somewhere. > > Kind of like Orac, now that I think about it, which is really quite > appropiate 8) > > (If you've never seen Blake's Seven, don't ask 8) Heh. I always thought I'd make a good Avon... Maybe carpel-tunnel or tendonitus, but what keyboard worker doesn't? Other than a food allergy and a car accident (and being near-sighted, like the majority of the population), I really don't have a litany. If I *had* a litany, then Davros would be a better match... now *there* was a guy with a litany... 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 11:14:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA11670 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA11658 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA13640; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:01:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611211901.MAA13640@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:01:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199611211000.LAA03369@freebie.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 21, 96 11:00:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Many hangovers are the result of impurities other than the alcohol > > also causing histamine reactions. Red wine was recently reported > > to cause hangovers worse than white wine, for instance, because of > > the impurities. > > That's recent? In this part of the world, where people perhaps drink > more wine, it's well-known (well, I know it, anyway :-). Well, I remember the study results were announced in the last year or so. It may be "well known" but not "proven". Now it's "proven". 8-). > > Most wines contain sulfites as preservatives. > > Do they? I know US wines often taste of sulphites, but over here > they're either used in significantly lower quantities, or they're > prohibited. In Germany, I'd guess they're used in significantly lower > quantities, and the public is told they're prohibited. It depends on if they are rebottled or not. If they are, there is a requirement for a preservative. I've seen a lot of non-US wines using salt instead of (or in addition to) sulfites. > > The motion sickness remedy I recommended will quiet stomach upset, > > headache, and vomiting (if you get that drunk) the morning after. > > How safe is this? Safe enough that I use it every time when riding a Air "Scare" West turboprop commuter flight. Their planes put "Space Mountain" to shame... the turbulence from the thermocline going into the heat bubble in Phoenix can drop the aircraft several hundred feet in a few seconds. Motion sickness cures are your friend. 8-). The reason I stressed "morning after" is mixing alcohol and medication of any kind is a bad thing. If you drink enough that you wake up drunk... well, you probably need the Betty Ford clinic, not a hangover "cure". If you wake up drunk, then you should probably not take it. 8-(. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 14:33:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21984 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21976 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:33:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611212233.OAA21976@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:33:17 +1300 X-Sender: CHarding@mail.massey.ac.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:33:17 +1200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz (Craig Harding) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeremy Sigmon wrote: >> Suffice it to say, a glass >> of orange juice is about the worst thing you can take for a >> hangover... > >Ok, you got my interest. Today is my birthday so what is the BEST thing >to drink for a hangover? The best thing to drink for a hangover? Anything alcoholic, and lots of it, the night before. Works everytime! -- C. -- Craig Harding Editor, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 14:50:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23251 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23242; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:50:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199611212250.OAA23242@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:50:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199611211427.PAA00663@freebie.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 21, 96 03:27:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > > the big difference between the US and Europe (I don't think Canada's > really on either side) is that many US Americans have a real load of > guilt pumped into them, and that fashions their drinking habits. well, its not very surprising is it! europe has been dumping its religious nuts in ships and sending them to the US. no wonder this country has all the guilt. you all exported all yours to us ;) puritans, and all the rest....eeeek! jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 15:42:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA26620 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA26614 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA15244; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:10:59 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611212340.KAA15244@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: <199611211847.LAA13600@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 21, 96 11:47:00 am" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:10:58 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > Kind of like Orac, now that I think about it, which is really quite > > appropiate 8) > > > > (If you've never seen Blake's Seven, don't ask 8) > > Heh. I always thought I'd make a good Avon... You? Avon? I think not 8) You're inadequately vindictive and bitchy; Orac is a much better match. If you ever wondered what Paul Darrow was doing these days, try http://www.frisbee.net.au/~annmarie and look for the "FOO Project". > Maybe carpel-tunnel or tendonitus, but what keyboard worker doesn't? Hmm, I was managing mine pretty well until the Australian "Mouse Mitt" importer folded. Anyone over there know someone selling them? > If I *had* a litany, then Davros would be a better match... now > *there* was a guy with a litany... 8-) 8-). Erk. I've lost my "Davros' Photo Album" bookmark 8( Some really well-chosen images there 8) > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 15:48:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27062 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27052 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA15321; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:17:46 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611212347.KAA15321@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Flying (was Drinking, was Perl. Ooh, word association 8) In-Reply-To: <199611211901.MAA13640@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 21, 96 12:01:01 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:17:46 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > Safe enough that I use it every time when riding a Air "Scare" West > turboprop commuter flight. Their planes put "Space Mountain" to > shame... the turbulence from the thermocline going into the heat > bubble in Phoenix can drop the aircraft several hundred feet in a > few seconds. Motion sickness cures are your friend. 8-). *chuckle* You should fly SAS sometime; bunch of ex-swedish AF pilots I expect, but they seem to think that an MD-80 is the next best thing to a Zlin 8) > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 16:13:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA28707 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA28698 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA14381; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:59:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611212359.QAA14381@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:59:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611212340.KAA15244@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 22, 96 10:10:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You? Avon? I think not 8) You're inadequately vindictive and bitchy; > Orac is a much better match. If you ever wondered what Paul Darrow was > doing these days, try http://www.frisbee.net.au/~annmarie and look for > the "FOO Project". Heh. Funny link. I can't believe he actually smiled... I guess a friend of mine was right when he said "it's all ot there on the net". > Hmm, I was managing mine pretty well until the Australian "Mouse Mitt" > importer folded. Anyone over there know someone selling them? What's a "Mouse Mitt"? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 16:26:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29908 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29880 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA15600; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:55:35 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611220025.KAA15600@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: <199611212359.QAA14381@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 21, 96 04:59:14 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:55:34 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > Heh. Funny link. I can't believe he actually smiled... I guess a > friend of mine was right when he said "it's all ot there on the net". Too much William Gibson there, but close 8) Kez (AnnMarie) actually has a pile of bootlegs and outtakes from stuff Paul has done. It's frightening listening to Avon doing commentary for a gardening show 8) > > Hmm, I was managing mine pretty well until the Australian "Mouse Mitt" > > importer folded. Anyone over there know someone selling them? > > What's a "Mouse Mitt"? Oops; it's a padded lycra wrist brace - in my case it keeps my wrists off the desk, and eliminates the chafing I get moving them around. They also keep my wrists warm, which helps a lot. Unfortunately, the vinyl on the bottom disintegrates after a few months of hard work, so I've been turning pairs over fairly rapidly. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 19:03:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11695 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA11604; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainserver ([24.112.2.91]) by bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <794985(4)>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:00:33 -0500 Message-ID: <3294CFE1.7FA6@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:55:45 -0500 From: Edward Ing X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: XFree86@XFree86.org CC: questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: X/Open Motif and XFree86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are there any plans by the Xfree organization to create and implementation according to the IEEE and X/Open standards? Or even and CDE implementation? I am a FreeBSD user, and I dream of something like this happening. What or the legal and licensing problems or obligations? Would it be possible to get X/Opens vendor certification for such implementations even if Xfree is not actually a vendor? Edward Ing From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 19:25:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA14602 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA14597; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainserver ([24.112.2.91]) by bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <795074(6)>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:20:56 -0500 Message-ID: <3294D4B2.4F40@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:16:18 -0500 From: Edward Ing X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: debian@debian.org CC: questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: I like what Debian is trying to do with Linux you are doing. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am a FreeBSD user and I like the fact that FreeBSD has a common distribution, and that this distribution has a relatively straight forward installation process. Secondly, I like the way FreeBSD has organized the software packages and the package installation/uninstallation tools, and organized the auxillary software into a ports collection with a set of "make" skeletons (which even ftp to get the required sources.) The organzation of your distribution is reaching an equally well thought-out state. The FreeBSD distribution process, and its development/research structure can serve as a good model for Linux development to improve your distribution. My concerned for Linux (Slackeware linux was actually the first free UNIX which I started with) is that the many variants are leading it to the way of the BSD-SystemV-AIX-HP-UX-you-name-it schism. I really appreciate what Debian is trying to do for the free-UNIX world and hope that it will not be too stubborn, but use the FreeBSD distribution and development structure as a model and integrate it into the advantageous aspects of Debians existing package managment system. I will probably be installing a Debian system sometime, but I am waiting for a neat realease. Edward Ing From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 20:01:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19010 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:01:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA19001 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainserver ([24.112.2.91]) by bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <794960(7)>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:58:37 -0500 Message-ID: <3294DD81.6108@utoronto.ca> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:53:53 -0500 From: Edward Ing X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Fieber CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: X/Open Motif and XFree86 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber wrote: > Dream no longer. Visit http://www.xinside.com for both Motif 2.0 > and CDE for FreeBSD. > I visited and I was impressed but, Is it X/Open Motif standards compliant? Second, its not Free or nearly free. Darn! :( Edward Ing. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 20:16:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19591 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cedar.netten.net (root@cedar.netten.net [205.244.191.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA19571 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from tracyphi (d0.netten.net [205.244.191.120]) by cedar.netten.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA26270 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:15:53 -0600 Message-ID: <32952996.4B82@cedar.netten.net> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:18:30 -0600 From: Tracy Phillips Reply-To: tphilips@cedar.netten.net Organization: redpoint.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: what a pisser Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hi, im new here but people cc'ing their messages to 3 or for other *@freebsd.org lists is a pisser. not only does it waste bandwidth but it also wastes my time and others time downloading it 2-4 times. pleas aim your questions at an appropriate list and wait for an answer. peace, ......... Tracy Phillips `:::' ....... ...... tphilips@cedar.netten.net ::: * `::. ::' ::: .:: .:.::. .:: .:: `::. :' ::: :: :: :: :: :: .::. ::: .::. .:: ::. `::::. .:' ::. ...:::.....................::' .::::.. UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 20:21:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19917 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from cedar.netten.net (root@cedar.netten.net [205.244.191.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA19898 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from tracyphi (d0.netten.net [205.244.191.120]) by cedar.netten.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA26485 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:21:13 -0600 Message-ID: <32952AD5.2AB0@cedar.netten.net> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:23:49 -0600 From: Tracy Phillips Reply-To: tphilips@cedar.netten.net Organization: redpoint.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: neXtaw and Tkstep anyone? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hi, is anyone using neXtaw and tkstep with freebsd. if so what are your experiances (good or bad) peace, ......... Tracy Phillips `:::' ....... ...... tphilips@cedar.netten.net ::: * `::. ::' ::: .:: .:.::. .:: .:: `::. :' ::: :: :: :: :: :: .::. ::: .::. .:: ::. `::::. .:' ::. ...:::.....................::' .::::.. UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 20:35:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20767 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20761 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA08353; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:35:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:35:05 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Edward Ing cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: X/Open Motif and XFree86 In-Reply-To: <3294DD81.6108@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Edward Ing wrote: > Is it X/Open Motif standards compliant? How do you mean? There is only one source for Motif source code and the stuff X-Inside sells is from that one source, just like the Motif and CDE everyone else on the planet uses. If there are violations of a standard, they are the same violations every other vendor has.... > Second, its not Free or nearly free. Surprise! What did you expect? Motif has never been free. There is an effort underway to implement a freely distributable version of the Motif API (lesstif), but I gather it has a way to go before it could serve as a plug-in replacement for the "real" Motif. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 21:44:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA25672 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA25658 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14598; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:44:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611220544.VAA14598@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: tphilips@cedar.netten.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what a pisser In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:18:30 CST." <32952996.4B82@cedar.netten.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:44:25 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Some of us o use small sigs 8) o mail filters to eliminate duplicates o filters to disburse the mail to appropiate filters Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Tracy Phillips : > hi, > > im new here but people cc'ing their messages to 3 or for other > *@freebsd.org lists is a pisser. not only does it waste bandwidth but it > also wastes my time and others time downloading it 2-4 times. pleas aim > your questions at an appropriate list and wait for an answer. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 22:59:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA28918 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from cedar.netten.net (root@cedar.netten.net [205.244.191.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA28906 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tracyphi (wok6-12.memphis.edu [141.225.224.132]) by cedar.netten.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA01504; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:59:33 -0600 Message-ID: <32954FE8.7AEA@cedar.netten.net> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:02:01 -0600 From: Tracy Phillips Reply-To: tphilips@cedar.netten.net Organization: redpoint.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: what a pisser References: <199611220544.VAA14598@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Some of us > o use small sigs 8) hehe, good point i guess i'll have to come up with a snazzy FreeBSD sig :) btw im pretty new to FreeBSD, but so far i am a happy user. i do have one question though. Linux has a lot of documentation available on www servers, freebsd seems not to have as much dedicated to this, why. okay, okay since you twisted my arm i will ask one more question :) can FreeBSD run BSDI binaries? and if so how well. peace Tracy Phillips tphilips@cedar.netten.net UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 23:37:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01258 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01233 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06954; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:35:27 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199611220735.JAA06954@grackle.grondar.za> To: tphilips@cedar.netten.net cc: Amancio Hasty , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: what a pisser Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:35:26 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tracy Phillips wrote: > btw im pretty new to FreeBSD, but so far i am a happy user. i do have > one question though. Linux has a lot of documentation available on www > servers, freebsd seems not to have as much dedicated to this, why. Not as many users. :-( > okay, okay since you twisted my arm i will ask one more question :) > can FreeBSD run BSDI binaries? and if so how well. Yes. Very, but not with BSDI shared libraries - ie statically linked only. BSDI Nutscrape runs just peachy :-). M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 00:33:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05949 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05942 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA21129; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:33:21 -0800 (PST) To: Amancio Hasty cc: tphilips@cedar.netten.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what a pisser In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:44:25 PST." <199611220544.VAA14598@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:33:20 -0800 Message-ID: <21127.848651600@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > o use small sigs 8) Hear hear. > o mail filters to eliminate duplicates Nonetheless, still no excuse for people to exercise poor/lazy email etiquette. A spam is still a spam, filtered or not. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 03:03:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA12854 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 03:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA12847 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 03:03:47 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vQtNX-000QrUC; Fri, 22 Nov 96 12:02 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id KAA00375; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:43:16 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611220943.KAA00375@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: <199611212250.OAA23242@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Nov 21, 96 02:50:13 pm" To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:43:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> the big difference between the US and Europe (I don't think Canada's >> really on either side) is that many US Americans have a real load of >> guilt pumped into them, and that fashions their drinking habits. > > well, its not very surprising is it! > > europe has been dumping its religious nuts in ships and sending > them to the US. no wonder this country has all the guilt. Well, there's a certain truth to that, but I thought some of them went of their own wee frill. Anyway, I don't understand why being pious makes you guilty. > you all exported all yours to us ;) Not I. I'm an export too. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 07:00:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA22313 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from horton.iaces.com ([204.147.87.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA22276; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 06:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from proot@localhost) by horton.iaces.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA05311; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:59:42 -0600 (CST) From: "Paul T. Root" Message-Id: <199611221459.IAA05311@horton.iaces.com> Subject: Re: X/Open Motif and XFree86 To: edward.ing@utoronto.ca (Edward Ing) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:59:42 -0600 (CST) Cc: XFree86@XFree86.org, questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3294CFE1.7FA6@utoronto.ca> from Edward Ing at "Nov 21, 96 04:55:45 pm" X-Organization: !nterprise Networking Services - ACES X-Phone: (612) 663-1979 X-Fax: (612) 663-8030 X-Page: (800) SKY-PAGE PIN: 537-7270 X-Address: 200 S. 5th St., Suite 1100 X-Address: Minneapolis, MN 55402 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In a previous message, Edward Ing said: > Are there any plans by the Xfree organization to create and > implementation according to the IEEE and X/Open standards? > Or even and CDE implementation? I am a FreeBSD user, and I dream of > something like this happening. > > What or the legal and licensing problems or obligations? > Would it be possible to get X/Opens vendor certification > for such implementations even if Xfree is not actually > a vendor? You can buy Motif and CDE from Xinside for about $150. -- Paul T. Root E/Mail: proot@iaces.com 200 S. 5th St. Suite 1100 PAG: +1 (800) SKY-PAGE PIN: 537-7370 Minneapolis, MN 55402 WRK: +1 (612) 663-1979 NIC: PTR FAX: +1 (612) 663-8030 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 08:34:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA27245 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns1.cei.net (root@dns1.cei.net [204.117.117.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA27237 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.dancooks.com (smtp.dancooks.com [204.180.122.4]) by dns1.cei.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA26492 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:33:46 -0600 Received: from T2/SpoolDir by smtp.dancooks.com (Mercury 1.12); Fri, 22 Nov 96 10:35:03 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by T2 (Mercury 1.30); 22 Nov 96 10:34:34 -0600 From: "Jason Hudgins" Organization: Dan Cook's Inc. To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:34:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Source code distribution.. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <26E1554D27@smtp.dancooks.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My companies webserver was running linux, but we just had a nasty hard drive crash..so now I am installing FreeBSD..I like it better, but I have a question with regards to the source..how exactly it is organized?? Slackware was pretty easy for me to find what I was looking for..a1 a2 a3 a4 etc for the base stuff d1 d2 for developement...n1 n2 for networking packages.. How are these arranged for FreeBSD...if I needed to patch a program...say for umount since it has/had buffer overflow problems...Where would I look for the source..short of downloading and extracting everything.. Thanks.. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 10:09:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA07393 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA07379; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199611221809.KAA07379@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:09:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199611220943.KAA00375@freebie.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 22, 96 10:43:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >> the big difference between the US and Europe (I don't think Canada's > >> really on either side) is that many US Americans have a real load of > >> guilt pumped into them, and that fashions their drinking habits. > > > > well, its not very surprising is it! > > > > europe has been dumping its religious nuts in ships and sending > > them to the US. no wonder this country has all the guilt. > > Well, there's a certain truth to that, but I thought some of them went > of their own wee frill. Anyway, I don't understand why being pious > makes you guilty. piety does not make your guilty. rather being raised in an atmosphere of "inherent guilt"..... well lets drop that one. the big difference is whether on applies ones piety to themselves or to others. in translations the phrase may be "a righteous man in a fur coat." he's nice an warm, talking about the deeds of all those without coats during the winter. a similar sentiment was once expressed as "let him.....the first stone." hhmmm...thhis could get rather heated. perhaps best left alone. hacking is so much less dangerous. > > > you all exported all yours to us ;) > > Not I. I'm an export too. export from the US or re-import to europe ;) jmb ps. "wee frill" ?? some left europe to escape societies that had frills on their clothes. among other reasons. surely, they left their "wee frill"s behind. -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 10:25:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08312 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08303 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id NAA00297; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:25:22 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199611221825.NAA00297@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Source code distribution.. To: Hudginsj@DCAR.Main.PO (Jason Hudgins) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:25:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <26E1554D27@smtp.dancooks.com> from "Jason Hudgins" at Nov 22, 96 10:34:28 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My companies webserver was running linux, but we just > had a nasty hard drive crash..so now I am installing > FreeBSD..I like it better, but I have a question with > regards to the source..how exactly it is organized?? > > Slackware was pretty easy for me to find what I was > looking for..a1 a2 a3 a4 etc for the base stuff d1 d2 for > developement...n1 n2 for networking packages.. > > How are these arranged for FreeBSD...if I needed to > patch a program...say for umount since it has/had > buffer overflow problems...Where would I look > for the source..short of downloading and > extracting everything.. > These are my opinions -- this is not my "area", so I am sure that there are those who have a better feeling for filesystem organization will correct me as appropriate: This is also most applicable to -current (2.2), however, is almost correct for 2.1.X. /usr/src contains it all... under that you'll sources that contain programs insubdirs: etc essentially the config files that reside in etc. include many of the user land include files contrib the base files for some of the imported programs like bison, tcl, etc... lib source file for the libs. there are subdirs under that for the various libs. usr.sbin system programs (usually for root), that are used after boot, and after usr is mounted. tools misc install tools, etc. sys the infamous kernel share those things that are likely usable across platforms. things like textfiles, and termcap, etc... secure an adjunct tree with various utilites that have encryption in them. sbin various binaries used during/after single user mode. lkm sources for various loadable kernel modules libexec various daemon sources usr.bin normal userland binaries gnu mostly GPLed code, but other restrictively copyrighted code also. bin normal userland binaries, also used by root before mounting /usr (single-user mode usage.) John general From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 14:45:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23060 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net [203.108.7.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA23032; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA22813; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:45:31 +1100 (EST) Received: from rlyon.mynet.au (slmel4p40.ozemail.com.au [203.15.163.128]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.8.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20070; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:45:12 +1100 (EST) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:31:55 +1100 (EST) From: Richard Lyon X-Sender: rlyon@rlyon.mynet.au To: "Paul T. Root" cc: Edward Ing , XFree86@XFree86.org, questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: X/Open Motif and XFree86 In-Reply-To: <199611221459.IAA05311@horton.iaces.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Paul T. Root wrote: > In a previous message, Edward Ing said: > > Are there any plans by the Xfree organization to create and > > implementation according to the IEEE and X/Open standards? > > Or even and CDE implementation? I am a FreeBSD user, and I dream of > > something like this happening. > > > > What or the legal and licensing problems or obligations? > > Would it be possible to get X/Opens vendor certification > > for such implementations even if Xfree is not actually > > a vendor? > > You can buy Motif and CDE from Xinside for about $150. > Has any looked at LessTif? This is meant to be a Motif clone currently under development. see http://www.hungry.com Regards Richard ... From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 04:32:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA22729 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 04:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA22720 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 04:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id XAA22695 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 23:02:24 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611231232.XAA22695@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Underneath all the gloss... To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 23:02:23 +1030 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So RedHat Linux looks pretty classy eh? Certainly their web pages show some nice design, and all that point-n-klick stuff is pretty neat. But here's something to make you stop and think a moment... " The RPM packaging system, a growing Linux standard makes upgrading and maintaining your system painless and worry free. New in release 4 is "package dependencies" which eliminates guess work and prevents major system failures when installing, uninstalling and upgrading software packages. " Urk. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 05:04:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA23905 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA23896 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 05:04:02 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vRHjH-000QuLC; Sat, 23 Nov 96 14:02 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id KAA04440; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:39:24 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611230939.KAA04440@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) In-Reply-To: <199611230020.RAA16257@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 22, 96 05:20:04 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:39:24 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat) Terry Lambert writes: >>> FWIW: >>> >>> Our company just bought a bunch of Micron machines. They are all SCSI, >>> and they were not special order. >> >> I'm assuming they were part of the "high-end" line at Micron -- I just >> checked their ads and they ship SCSI on the high-end line. THis makes >> sense.. but the point is that anyone buying the best in a PC _should_ know >> the advantages of SCSI, and will probably request SCSI if the machine >> doesn't ship with SCSI by default. Still, most people (I'd best 90% of >> PC's sold today) are shipped with ATAPI CDROMS -- and EIDE hard drives. >> When I was saying ALL, I meant damn near ALL... > > My only point was that this is apparently changing... and basing > a decision on "this is the way it always has been, so this is the > way it will always be" is a bad idea in general, and seems to be > becoming false in this particular case. Assuming the Micron change > from ATAPI to SCSI on their high end represents a trend. Yes, I've seen other indications of this. It might mark a trend towards maturity in the market: even Micosloth users are gradually asking why this expensive "operating system" keeps crashing, and people with multimedia applications probably wonder why programs sometimes hang for half a second before continuing. The German trade magazines (not necessarily reliable) claim that there's a trend towards SCSI, too. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 09:29:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03517 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA03512; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:29:19 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vRLtA-000Qr0C; Sat, 23 Nov 96 18:29 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id QAA04803; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:53:10 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611231553.QAA04803@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: TCP/IP startup difficulties In-Reply-To: from Glen W Mann at "Nov 23, 96 05:22:06 am" To: gmann@itw.com (Glen W Mann) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:53:09 +0100 (MET) Cc: questions@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Questions), chat@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Glen W Mann writes: > >> From: Greg Lehey >> GWMANN@ccmail.monsanto.com writes: >>> >>> Hello all. >>> >>> We are converting from IPX and NETBluey to TCP/IP. So far we have an >>> NT server running TCP/IP with one connected NT client (works fine). >>> However, we have no router, nor a DNS (we are not yet connected to the >>> net). >>> >>> My FreeBSD box is P/75 32MB RAM, with 3C509 NIC at 340/IRQ 10. On >>> boot FreeBSD finds the NIC no problem, and does not pause on the add >>> gateway or sendmail startups, "ifconfig -a" shows the following: >> kachunk] >> I'd guess that you have the board set up wrong. Wrong port, perhaps? >> Check the man page for ep: >> >> The default port to use is the BNC. To choose an alternate port, use the >> following flag combinations with ifconfig(8) or in your /etc/hostname.ep? >> file. >> >> -link0 Use the BNC port (default). >> >> link0 -link1 Use the AUI port. >> >> link0 link1 Use the UTP port. >> > > Thank you doctor. Right problem, though I couldn't find man or apropos > anything for ep. (I'm still running 2.1.0 that could be why.) Hmmm. I thought it was there, too. This is man section 4, of course. I'm running 3.0-CURRENT. > In man ifconfig, links are stated to be to enable or disable special > link processing for SLIP etc. Quite vague = I'm lost. Yes, it's less than satisfactory. The problem is, ifconfig doesn't know anything about the interfaces: it just sets flag bits (that's why they have such noncomittal names as link0 and link1). As a result, it can't tell you what each individual interface does, though I suppose it should point you to the individual interface man pages. I suppose we should do something about that.... > I also don't have a /etc/hostname.ep? file. You don't need one. My recollection is that this is a Sunism. > I got the card to work by using the 3c5x9cfg.exe DOS program and > changing the interface type (?from memory) from automatic to TP > (R45). In /etc/sysconfig removed all the link stuff from > ifconfig_ep0. That'll do it. > Thanks for all the answers. You're welcome. > Now on to my hangover ehhh.. Wrong mailing list. We did that one on freebsd-chat the other day. The bottom line, thanks to Terry Lambert (care: not a drinker): > Note: I am not a doctor, this is not medical advice. > > Meclizine Hcl, 25mg > > It's an over-the-counter motion sickness remedy. May cause drowsiness > in some people. Full relief in about half an hour. > > Alternately, take two asprin with half a quart of water before going > to sleep. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 10:56:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA07793 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA07783 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id NAA03954; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:56:27 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:56:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199611231856.NAA03954@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: Joel Ray Holveck To: grog@lemis.de CC: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199611230939.KAA04440@freebie.lemis.de> (message from Greg Lehey on Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:39:24 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, I've seen other indications of this. It might mark a trend towards maturity in the market: even Micosloth users are gradually asking why this expensive "operating system" keeps crashing, and people with multimedia applications probably wonder why programs sometimes hang for half a second before continuing. The German trade magazines (not necessarily reliable) claim that there's a trend towards SCSI, too. This may be changing the subject, but then again, how many in this thread are about Perl? What are these A/V drives I see nowdays? Are these just standard-issue SCSI drives trying to get on the 'multimedia' bandwagon, or is there really something else to them? From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 11:21:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08746 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08731 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA27787; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:21:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611231921.LAA27787@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: grog@lemis.de, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: ATAPI Vs Scsi In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:56:27 EST." <199611231856.NAA03954@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:21:00 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Joel Ray Holveck : > > Yes, I've seen other indications of this. It might mark a trend > towards maturity in the market: even Micosloth users are gradually > asking why this expensive "operating system" keeps crashing, and > people with multimedia applications probably wonder why programs > sometimes hang for half a second before continuing. The German trade > magazines (not necessarily reliable) claim that there's a trend > towards SCSI, too. My concern about IDE is that at least for a development is kind of nice to be able to add drives as the need arises additionally, the ease of configuration -- well sort of, we know about the scsi cables , terminators, etc.. however if one can agree on the configuration for scsi busses at least for your company then it is easy to add/remove drives. For instance, lets assume that my development sources reside on a separate disk at the end of the day I can take the external disk home and keep working (assuming that one has a similar setup at home). Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 13:36:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14648 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14637 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19464; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:21:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611232121.OAA19464@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel Ray Holveck) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:21:52 -0700 (MST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611231856.NAA03954@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Nov 23, 96 01:56:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What are these A/V drives I see nowdays? Are these just > standard-issue SCSI drives trying to get on the 'multimedia' > bandwagon, or is there really something else to them? They are standard drives which do not have an off cycl;e for thermal recalibration. This makes them faster to dump an incoming stream of "A/V" data and turn around for more data, but it makes them much more sensitive to thermal variance. If you have a machine you leave on all the time, and you scsiformat after it has reached thermal equilibrium, and never remount after a crash until it is, again, at thermal equilibrium, and you maintain a standard thermal profile with consistent ventilation to a controlled environment in which the machine is placed, you can use them all day with no difference, except they are slightly faster over a bursty short haul. If you don't do any of these things, they are slightly faster over a bursty short haul, but they have a *significantly* decreased MTBF. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 16:57:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21012 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA21007 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bebox ([207.67.176.18]) by covina.lightside.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA05973 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:36:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611240036.QAA05973@covina.lightside.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: In Hollywood, nothing is as it seems Date: Sat, 23 Nov 96 16:34:20 From: "Jake Hamby" Reply-To: jehamby@lightside.com X-Mailer: BeMail [version 1.1] Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk True story: I was referred to by a coworker that a North Hollywood security company was looking for a sysadmin to diagnose some trouble they'd been having with their SCO UNIX box. So we drove over to this place, which was hidden in a cul-de-sec next to some old warehouses. It had a 9-ft high black wall around the perimeter and a high-tech looking keypad. The guy who referred me (who had decided to tag along for moral support) pushed the keypad and introduced us. A woman opened the door and let us through the gate, behind which was a seemingly ordinary looking house that had been converted to office space. She walked up to the front, past the ordinary looking white front door, and up to a wall covered with shelves and some old paint cans. She pushed it open; it was the door to the house! All the paint cans were conveniently glued together and the whole thing swung open on hinges. The "real" door was a fake, cleverly mounted to an outside wall. We were trying to play it cool, but afterwards we both said, "Man, I want one of those on my house!" :-) The moral of the story is the subject of this post. As for the SCO (OpenServer 5) box, it was really screwy. Thank God I don't have to work on SCO systems in my day job! The system had four modems attached through a Digi port server, and would occasionally pause for seconds (sometimes minutes) at a time, for no apparent reason. Also, it couldn't seem to connect at faster than 9600 bps (the gettydefs was set to 38400 bps but would immediately drop down to 9600). Connecting the modem directly to the PC, rather than through the Digi, didn't fix the problem, so it had to be the SCO OS itself. Apparently they've had this problem for five _years_, even with a previous computer and version of the OS. I suggested they upgrade to Solaris/x86, which would perform much better (the thing was a Pentium 166, but *felt* like a 386, an observation shared by other people on this list in the "Free SCO" thread), and offer 100% binary compatibility with their old SCO binaries. I would like to suggest FreeBSD, but I doubt that our SCO compatibility is that robust (nor is Linux's) to run such wonderful programs as Microsoft Word, Foxpro, and Wordperfect for SCO. :-) At any rate, they accepted, guaranteeing me a hefty consulting fee for a day's work of upgrading to an OS I know how to deal with. But just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list know what might have been causing their SCO dial-in terminal woes in the first place? -- Jake From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 20:26:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA27179 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27173 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id OAA24031; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:54:54 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611240424.OAA24031@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) In-Reply-To: <199611232121.OAA19464@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 23, 96 02:21:52 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:54:53 +1030 (CST) Cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, grog@lemis.de, terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > What are these A/V drives I see nowdays? Are these just > > standard-issue SCSI drives trying to get on the 'multimedia' > > bandwagon, or is there really something else to them? > > They are standard drives which do not have an off cycl;e for thermal > recalibration. This is not strictly true. > This makes them faster to dump an incoming stream of "A/V" data > and turn around for more data, but it makes them much more sensitive > to thermal variance. An incorrect conclusion, a conjunction and a falshehood. > If you have a machine you leave on all the time, and you scsiformat > after it has reached thermal equilibrium, and never remount after a > crash until it is, again, at thermal equilibrium, and you maintain > a standard thermal profile with consistent ventilation to a controlled > environment in which the machine is placed, you can use them all day > with no difference, except they are slightly faster over a bursty short > haul. This is derived from dream-delirium facts, and should be tossed out before either baby or bathwater. > If you don't do any of these things, they are slightly faster over a > bursty short haul, but they have a *significantly* decreased MTBF. This was probably derived from the above observations, but may be true regardless. It is certainly speculation. Some theory : - harddisk platters are made of aluminium. - aluminium expands and contracts corresponding to temperature. - harddisks generate quite a lot of heat. - disk control logic uses a variety of techniques for getting the head to the right place on the disk as quickly as possible. One of these techniques calls for guesstimating "about where" to sling the head before actually looking at the disk to see where it is. - in order to compensate for the expansion/contraction of the platters, the drive logic performs a periodic operation known as "thermal recalibration", where it hops the head across the disk comparing where it thinks the head should have landed with where it actually _did_ land, and updating it's idea of what is where accordingly. - in 'conventional' disk drives, this process is uninterruptible, and can take hundreds of milliseconds. So, to deal with the "AV" crowd, whose hardware often can't handle being starved of data for several hundred ms, drive manufacturers made the recalibration process interruptible, so that data operations continue and recalibration occurs in the "background". Even with the use of a servo surface, it is not practical to abandon thermal recalibration at all. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 21:53:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29994 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29987 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA00522; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:53:02 -0800 (PST) To: jehamby@lightside.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: In Hollywood, nothing is as it seems In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:34:20." <199611240036.QAA05973@covina.lightside.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:53:01 -0800 Message-ID: <520.848814781@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > doubt that our SCO compatibility is that robust (nor is Linux's) to run such > wonderful programs as Microsoft Word, Foxpro, and Wordperfect for SCO. :-) There's one obvious way to find out, of course. Any chances for testing here? Jordan