From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 22 13:02:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23434 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:02:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707222002.NAA23434@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-chat-outgoing Subject: test forgive me this test . From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 22 13:26:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25468 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25464 for chat; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:26:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707222026.NAA25464@hub.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: last test Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hmm.... From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 22 13:37:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26445 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26437 for chat; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:36:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707222036.NAA26437@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: working again To: chat Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:36:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk thanks to Annelise Anderson and Chuck Robey the freebsd-chat mailing list is working again. too much mail...i did not realize it was broken ;( jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 22 15:24:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA03130 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03123 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Quisqueya (slip166-72-219-139.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.139]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA05374 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:23:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707222223.SAA05374@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 18:26:20 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Could anyone share with me what strings they use to filter their FreeBSD lists. I have tried a few things, but every now an then messages go unfiltered.. For chat I have: - - owner-chat@freebsd.org - - for chat-outgoing For doc I have: - - owner-doc@freebsd.org and today added - - for Questions seems to always work: freebsd-questions-digest freebsd-questions-digest@FreeBSD.ORG I am trying to make the filters so they separate the messages sent to me from the ones going to the list (even if I am on the cc). From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 22 16:26:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06215 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06160 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:25:45 -0700 (PDT) From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199707222325.QAA06160@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:24:14 +1200 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: TV Production Centre, Massey University To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:24:02 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Mail Filters and Install Kudos (was Re: What string to filter Fr Reply-to: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199707222223.SAA05374@federation.addy.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Francisco Reyes wrote: > Could anyone share with me what strings they use to filter their > FreeBSD lists. I have tried a few things, but every now an then > messages go unfiltered.. I'm tending to filter on the Sender: header, but the problem is that the contents seem to periodically change. For example chat's sender has just flipped from owner-chat@freebsd.org to owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org. Both chat and isp seem to do this on semi-regular intervals. If it's not possible to keep these fields constant due to the software in use (or if the changes are deliberate to serve some other purpose) perhaps an X-Mailing-List: freebsd-chat header or something would be useful? On a completely separate note, I'd just like to congratulate the freebsd team on the user-friendliness and quality of the CD-ROM install procedure. I've been running a machine on 2.0.5 for a while now and although I've been subscribing to the CDs since the end of last year I've only just had a chance to use one of them (2.2.2) for an install. The 2.0.5 system had been installed off floppies so by comparison I was amazed and delighted at the simplicity of the procedure for the current release. Cheers! -- C. -- Craig Harding Acting Director, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 22 18:23:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA13484 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13476 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen.hiwaay.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.5/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id UAA03670; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:08:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nexgen (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nexgen.hiwaay.net (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA05346 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:57:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199707230057.TAA05346@nexgen.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "FreeBSd Chat list" From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? In-reply-to: Message from "Francisco Reyes" of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:26:20 EDT." <199707222223.SAA05374@federation.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:57:49 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Could anyone share with me what strings they use to filter their > FreeBSD lists. > I have tried a few things, but every now an then messages go > unfiltered.. As the other posting noted, they tend to flip-flop on the sender addresses. I filter with slocal and have decided to leave identical filters in place for owner-chat and owner-freebsd-chat, and similar for all the other FreeBSD lists. How about posting in FreeBSD-Announce when the list server(s) change(s) the Sender: header? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 22 19:24:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA16932 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16922 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA04903; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:53:19 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707230223.LAA04903@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: I2O Spec available In-Reply-To: <199707230013.RAA14544@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jul 22, 97 05:13:09 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:53:18 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > ftp://ftp.i2osig.org/ver1-5.pdf > > > > > > This site no longer accepts anonymous FTP requests. > > > > Double-check. :) (Maybe you're to well-known, since I'm anonymous > > enough to connect to it?). > > It let me connect as 10 of 10, but refused login with a refusal > which looked like a bad account, not a limitation. > > In any case, there is nothing else on the site to mirror (which > is too bad; getting the mailing lists would have been nice), and > I have a copy now. Hah. So much for their stupid NDA, hmm? They're obviously scared now : cain:~/archive/incoming>ftp ftp.i20sig.org ftp: connect: Connection refused This is going to be as bad as the clams and OT-3. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 01:39:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04570 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sinbin.demos.su (sinbin.demos.su [194.87.0.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA04551; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skraldespand.demos.su by sinbin.demos.su with ESMTP id MAA25764; (8.6.12/D) Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:38:12 +0400 Received: by skraldespand.demos.su id MAA09916; (8.8.5/D) Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:38:18 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19970723123817.47408@skraldespand.demos.su> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:38:17 +0400 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: hardware@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Pentium II/ Byte? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.75 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, anyone has Bytebench results for Pentium II's at various frequency? -mishania From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 02:20:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA06163 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA06158 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA02480 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:20:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux in PC Magazine Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't recall this being mentioned here before, but if it has, my apologies--or my apologies if what I posted Saturday got through. I don't think it did. In any case PC Magazine ran a two-part article in the July 1997 and August 1997 issues on Linux-- "Leaning Toward Linux: Powerful, robust and free, Linus is worth investigating, especially if you plan to set up an Internet domain." The July 1997 article is available on-line at http://www.pcmag.com/ The August 1997 article (p. 311 ff.), "Getting the Most Out of Linux: Linux isn't easy, but its power and customizability [is that in the OECD?} make it worth the effort," emphasizes the X-Window system. These articles emphasize a certain amount of difficulty in installation and configuration, but great rewards....neither gives any hint that Linux is not the only free un*x that runs on a pc. I consider this a breakthrough ("nerdware goes mainstream"?) because PC Magazine is the pre-eminant publication in its class with heaps of advertising and resources to figure out what its readers want to read about. They've done articles on OS/2 and mentioned the role of unix servers in this-and-that, but this seems a first to me: run it on your pc. I don't recall any articles on software to make your pc run multiple operating systems or anything like that. They publish a page or two of letters in every issue--usually 60-120 words--that (always in standard English) usually compliment the magazine/author on a great, useful article, mention the job classification (not the company) of the letter writer and how the article was of interest to him/her, and provide some additional useful information for readers--a correction, a place where something may be downloaded, whatever. In any case I think a response of some enthusiasm might encourge PC Magazine to do more of this sort of thing--they do know it's not all Wintel..... You can send an e-mail message to pcmag@zd.com, or a fax to 212-503-5255, or snail to PC Magazine, One Park Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10016-5802. West Coast FAX to 415/513/800. The author of the articles is Neil Randall, a "frequent contributor to PC Magazine and the author of The Soul of the Internet (ITCP) and coauthor of Special Edition Using Microsoft FrontPage97(Que). e-mail = nrandall@watarts.uwaterloo.ca" Maybe he should get a free set of cdroms for him to try.... Annelise > > Annelise > > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 02:44:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA07240 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA07233 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA01727; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707230944.CAA01727@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux in PC Magazine In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:20:11 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:44:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wire Magazine , if I am not mistaken in the August issue has an article on Linus and Linux. If I am not mistaken the July issue of Byte Magazine has side by side comparison of FreeBSD vs Win Nt --- oops I meant Linux vs Win NT -- I guess the first was some sort of Freudian slip. I honestly was trying to type linux but some how my fingers took over and silently inserted "FreeBSD vs Win Nt" 8) Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Annelise Anderson : > I don't recall this being mentioned here before, but if it has, my > apologies--or my apologies if what I posted Saturday got through. > I don't think it did. > > In any case PC Magazine ran a two-part article in the July 1997 and > August 1997 issues on Linux-- > > "Leaning Toward Linux: Powerful, robust and free, Linus is worth > investigating, especially if you plan to set up an Internet domain." > > The July 1997 article is available on-line at http://www.pcmag.com/ > > The August 1997 article (p. 311 ff.), "Getting the Most Out of Linux: > Linux isn't easy, but its power and customizability [is that in the OECD?} > make it worth the effort," emphasizes the X-Window system. > > These articles emphasize a certain amount of difficulty in installation > and configuration, but great rewards....neither gives any hint that > Linux is not the only free un*x that runs on a pc. > > I consider this a breakthrough ("nerdware goes mainstream"?) because > PC Magazine is the pre-eminant publication in its class with heaps > of advertising and resources to figure out what its readers want to > read about. They've done articles on OS/2 and mentioned the role of > unix servers in this-and-that, but this seems a first to me: run it > on your pc. I don't recall any articles on software to make your pc > run multiple operating systems or anything like that. > > They publish a page or two of letters in every issue--usually 60-120 > words--that (always in standard English) usually compliment the > magazine/author on a great, useful article, mention the job classification > (not the company) of the letter writer and how the article was of interest > to him/her, and provide some additional useful information for readers--a > correction, a place where something may be downloaded, whatever. > > In any case I think a response of some enthusiasm might encourge PC > Magazine to do more of this sort of thing--they do know it's not all > Wintel..... > > You can send an e-mail message to pcmag@zd.com, or a fax to > 212-503-5255, or snail to PC Magazine, One Park Avenue, New York, > N.Y. 10016-5802. West Coast FAX to 415/513/800. > > The author of the articles is Neil Randall, a "frequent contributor > to PC Magazine and the author of The Soul of the Internet (ITCP) > and coauthor of Special Edition Using Microsoft FrontPage97(Que). > e-mail = nrandall@watarts.uwaterloo.ca" Maybe he should get a free > set of cdroms for him to try.... > > Annelise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Annelise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 03:27:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA08892 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA08886 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA03430; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:25:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux in PC Magazine In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:20:11 PDT." Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:25:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3427.869653554@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The author of the articles is Neil Randall, a "frequent contributor > to PC Magazine and the author of The Soul of the Internet (ITCP) > and coauthor of Special Edition Using Microsoft FrontPage97(Que). > e-mail = nrandall@watarts.uwaterloo.ca" Maybe he should get a free > set of cdroms for him to try.... Already sent out yesterday morning - I've been in touch with Neil over email. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 03:31:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA08998 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA08988 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA03451; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:29:27 -0700 (PDT) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux in PC Magazine In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:44:42 PDT." <199707230944.CAA01727@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 03:29:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3447.869653767@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If I am not mistaken the July issue of Byte Magazine has side by > side comparison of FreeBSD vs Win Nt --- oops I meant Linux vs > Win NT -- I guess the first was some sort of Freudian slip. I honestly > was trying to type linux but some how my fingers took over and > silently inserted "FreeBSD vs Win Nt" 8) No, you were simply thinking of the follow-up sequel which somebody here [he looks around] is going to write. :-) Jordan P.S. That person would have to touch NT, of course, in order to make the comparison semi-authentic. Hmmmm. That's a real draw-back. Perhaps we could at least take up a collection for his or her family here, hopefully to cover the subsequent medication and hospitalization costs that are sure to follow such an endeavor. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 05:50:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14669 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wasted.bandwidth.org (desmo@wasted.bandwidth.org [169.207.11.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14664 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from desmo@localhost) by wasted.bandwidth.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) id HAA22444; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:50:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970723075000.00233@wasted.bandwidth.org> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:50:00 -0500 From: "Kenneth J. Monville" To: Francisco Reyes Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? References: <199707222223.SAA05374@federation.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68e In-Reply-To: <199707222223.SAA05374@federation.addy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 06:26:20PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 06:26:20PM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Could anyone share with me what strings they use to filter their > FreeBSD lists. > I have tried a few things, but every now an then messages go > unfiltered.. I use procmail to filter my mail, this is an example entry: :0: * ^From.owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org IN.chat It is using the first line in the header to filter the mail based on sender. Hope that's what you need, Ken -- |\ /| _ \ desmo@bandwidth.org | \/ | _ Ken |_ / http://www.bandwidth.org/~desmo | | (_) |\| \/ | |_ |_ |_ \ * Powered by FreeBSD * From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 06:19:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16252 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16243; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:19:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231319.GAA16243@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199707230057.TAA05346@nexgen.hiwaay.net> from "dkelly@hiwaay.net" at Jul 22, 97 07:57:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > Could anyone share with me what strings they use to filter their > > FreeBSD lists. > > I have tried a few things, but every now an then messages go > > unfiltered.. > > As the other posting noted, they tend to flip-flop on the sender addresses. > I filter with slocal and have decided to leave identical filters in place > for owner-chat and owner-freebsd-chat, and similar for all the other if these tools (slocal, procmail, etc..) can handle regular expressions, you can cover all cases by sorting on owner-*. if you would rather restrict this more tightly, use owner-chat|owner-freebsd-chat as to why they flip, i dont know ;( i need to look into this more carefully, as time allows. in the meantime, please, dont be overly restrictive in your filters. the only two possilbilities are owner-freebsd- and owner- sorry for any inconvience this may have caused. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 06:59:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA18353 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (dkelly@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA18338; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.5/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id IAA32328; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:58:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:58:49 -0500 (CDT) From: David Kelly Message-Id: <199707231358.IAA32328@fly.HiWAAY.net> To: dkelly@HiWAAY.net, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > > > Could anyone share with me what strings they use to filter their > > > FreeBSD lists. > > > I have tried a few things, but every now an then messages go > > > unfiltered.. > > > > As the other posting noted, they tend to flip-flop on the sender addresses. > > I filter with slocal and have decided to leave identical filters in place > > for owner-chat and owner-freebsd-chat, and similar for all the other > > if these tools (slocal, procmail, etc..) can handle regular > expressions, you can cover all cases by sorting on > owner-*. That's the One Big Failing of slocal, no regex. For now my CPU doesn't have much better to do than to read my entire .maildelivery for each and every incoming message. Slocal works. I sorta understand what I did to make it work. And one day will look into procmail and see if *this* time I can understand it. Not sure if nmh has been enhancing slocal. Maybe its time to look at that too. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ====================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 07:16:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA19548 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA19533; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:16:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231416.HAA19533@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: pechter@lakewood.com Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Cc: softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <199707231237.IAA04426@i4got.lakewood.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Jul 23, 97 08:37:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk moved to chat: (please note that no masculine or feminine pronouns or nouns are used ;) once upon a time, their existed the "nuclear family" in a land called america. the "nuclear family" consisted of one parent whose primary duty was to produce an income that would house and feed the family. the other parent's primary duty was to care for the children. kid sick at school? there was a parent available to care for the child. same was true of little league, parent-teacher conferences and PTA meetings. parents were involved in their churches, schools and community. because one parent had the time to do these things. then a blight came upon the land. both parents started to have a primary duty of producing income (there were a variety of reasons, of course, some good, some not so good) childcare became a secondary priority of both parents, and the primary duty of none. some tried out-sourcing parenting to low wage "nannies". (had to be low wage, else out-sourcing would have been an economic loss) churches, schools and communities lost the volunteer parents that had made the system work. liberal or conservative, many of us grew up in the 50's and 60's in that style of "nuclear family". that's is one element that is missing today, much to detriment of our children. its takes parents to raise a child it takes caring neighbors to watch out for the children when the parents are absent. at some point they inevitably will be. it takes family and friends that will let the children sleep over once in while, so the parents can enjoy their relationship without the delays in intrusions that children impose. (anyone with children that has not lost most of a week's sleep to flu, measles or another ailment? anyone with children that has not lost a romantic evening to an uncooperative child? anyone that does not occassionly long for the days before children, when the world was only two people, the sun always shone brightly upon the land?) jmb Bill Pechter wrote: > > > You're close. The real problem is the damned Clintons, er, liberals > > think they can raise our children "better" than we can, and want to > > control this (and all other) aspects of our lives. I'm truly sick and > > tired of this "It takes a village to raise a child" crap - it takes a > > Mommie and Daddy who care about, and CARE FOR the child. If the child > > is downloading pornography or talking to strangers on the net, the child > > needs to get his or her shell set to 'nologin', amongst other corrective > > behavior. > > > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com > > soapbox mode=ON > > Hey Wes, give us Liberals a break. I must be from the old school. > Shell set to nologin hell. What about a hand applied to the rear end. > It isn't a Liberal versus conservative thing. It's an "I'm too busy > with my pretentious lifestyle to parent" thing. > > There's actually something to this "It takes a village" stuff. When I was > a kid if any neighbors caught me doing anything that I shouldn't do > they would have called my folks and my folks would've nailed me. > > Now they just turn the other way or whine to the child welfare authorities. > > My mother was a teacher for 30 years in both nice, wealthy suburbs and > Bedford Stuyvesant and Brownsville New York (pretty tough inner city > areas). > > When she called the parents of a kid in NY -- both parents, who couldn't > afford to miss work showed up. In the suburbs, the mother of one kid > asked to have the parent teacher conference moved from Wednesday, because > "It's my tennis day." > > Gimme a break! > > soapbox mode=off > > We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming already in progress. > > Bill From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 07:37:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA20854 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (root@cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20848 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@[206.246.122.2]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/CJKv1.99-CAIS) with SMTP id KAA25083; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA03476; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:37:27 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:37:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Amancio Hasty , Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux in PC Magazine In-Reply-To: <3447.869653767@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > If I am not mistaken the July issue of Byte Magazine has side by > > side comparison of FreeBSD vs Win Nt --- oops I meant Linux vs > > Win NT -- I guess the first was some sort of Freudian slip. I honestly > > was trying to type linux but some how my fingers took over and > > silently inserted "FreeBSD vs Win Nt" 8) > > No, you were simply thinking of the follow-up sequel which somebody > here [he looks around] is going to write. :-) > > Jordan > > P.S. That person would have to touch NT, of course, in order to make > the comparison semi-authentic. Hmmmm. That's a real draw-back. > Perhaps we could at least take up a collection for his or her family > here, hopefully to cover the subsequent medication and hospitalization > costs that are sure to follow such an endeavor. ;-) > I know someone who is a competent programmer and new to both FreeBSD and NT ... let me see if I can get her impressions written down. I personally put FreeBSD-current on her box. > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 08:31:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA24554 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24543; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA09715; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:00:50 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707231530.BAA09715@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707231416.HAA19533@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jul 23, 97 07:16:39 am" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:00:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > > once upon a time, their existed the "nuclear family" in a land called > america. the "nuclear family" consisted of one parent whose primary > duty was to produce an income that would house and feed the family. > the other parent's primary duty was to care for the children. It is fallacious to claim that this structure, which has stolen the term "nuclear family" from the actual meaning of the phrase, is inherently better (or worse, for that matter) than any other caring structure. What is significant is content. Structure is irrelevant, other than that under extreme circumstances it can limit content. Content in the context of the parenting process comes down to attitude. The attitude of parents in particular, and of the community at large. It's not whether you have a "nuclear" family, but whether the time and effort is put in on both sides of the equation. This involves both children and parents, and at the moment, the trend is for both parties to focus on themselves to the exclusion of their relationships. You can cast blame for the rise of selfishness anywhere you like; I make no pretension to knowing where this comes from. Make no mistake though, the "nuclear family" is a simplistic, glib "solution" tailored to a society that wants to believe that every problem has a simple answer. Preferably one that lends itself to easy repetition without actual brain activity. > then a blight came upon the land. ... This is very poetic, but historically naiive in the extreme. > liberal or conservative, many of us grew up in the 50's and 60's in > that style of "nuclear family". This is mythical. Many of us have grown up today in "nuclear" families. Many of our parents and ancestors did not. Trite or not, consider "the good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow's not as bad as it seems". Spare a few seconds considering who benefits from your concern about the "nuclear" family. > anyone that does not occassionly long > for the days before children, when the world was only two people, > the sun always shone brightly upon the land?) Heh. The answer to this one is trivially simple. If you really value your independance; _don't_have_any_. There are bound to be plenty of induhviduals around who'll do it for you. 8) > > Hey Wes, give us Liberals a break. I must be from the old school. > > Shell set to nologin hell. What about a hand applied to the rear end. > > It isn't a Liberal versus conservative thing. It's an "I'm too busy > > with my pretentious lifestyle to parent" thing. Indeed; _having_ the kids is part of the pretension, _looking_after_ them is too much like hard work. Basically; please don't bombard us caring types with your lightly-browned echo-mode political dribble. If it's suitable for a ten-second sound bite, it hasn't even considered the problem. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 08:36:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA24923 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24915; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA04647; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:34:42 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:16:39 PDT." <199707231416.HAA19533@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:34:42 -0700 Message-ID: <4643.869672082@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! There are currently far too many people on this planet as it is, and sparing it any additional citizens can only be a blessing (ever check out the last 10 years worth of census data? It's f-ing scarey!). No matter how intelligent, rich, and generally genetically attractive you are, the inescapable fact remains that there are too goddamn many of us now on this rock and any production of additional humans can only make the problem worse, likely soon to reach the point where the human organism acts no differently than rats do when overcrowded - they start killing each other mindlessly. It seems to be a built-in safety valve, and we've shown so little success at curbing our "animalistic impulses" in the past that I don't see this one being dealt with any more intelligently when it comes to the point of crisis. I also don't buy the argument that Americans have to breed in order to keep parity with some of the other countries who are knocking out new babies faster than an army kitchen breeds roaches. If our domestic population should start declining, and that's something I rather doubt could happen in any case, we can always just bump up immigration quotas another notch and bring in the educated top percentage of whichever countries have the greatest surplus. Even assuming a very small percentage of educated citizens in any given 3rd world country, the supply is still great enough (and the attractiveness of moving to a less overcrowded country high enough) that I think it's likely to stay a "buyer's market" for some time to come. Just my two clinical cents. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 08:36:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA24986 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24978 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA04664; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:35:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Chuck Robey cc: Amancio Hasty , Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux in PC Magazine In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:37:33 EDT." Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:35:08 -0700 Message-ID: <4661.869672108@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I know someone who is a competent programmer and new to both FreeBSD and > NT ... let me see if I can get her impressions written down. I personally > put FreeBSD-current on her box. Cool! Tell her she'll definitely get her name in lights. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 08:56:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26440 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26405; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:56:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231556.IAA26405@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707231530.BAA09715@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jul 24, 97 01:00:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > > > > once upon a time, their existed the "nuclear family" in a land called > > america. the "nuclear family" consisted of one parent whose primary > > duty was to produce an income that would house and feed the family. > > the other parent's primary duty was to care for the children. > > It is fallacious to claim that this structure, which has stolen the > term "nuclear family" from the actual meaning of the phrase, is > inherently better (or worse, for that matter) than any other caring > structure. okay, substitute different term for "nuclear family". > > What is significant is content. > > Structure is irrelevant, other than that under extreme circumstances > it can limit content. i am not sure what you are calling "Structure" and what you are calling "Content". some structures make certain activities easier while making others more difficult. they is value in a structure that makes "doing the right thing" easier. fortran can be forced to processs strings even though the structure of the language does not help. much easier to process strings in C. to me, structure is valuable as an enabler/facilitator. > > Content in the context of the parenting process comes down to > attitude. The attitude of parents in particular, and of the community > at large. It's not whether you have a "nuclear" family, but whether > the time and effort is put in on both sides of the equation. This > involves both children and parents, and at the moment, the trend is > for both parties to focus on themselves to the exclusion of their > relationships. i dont think its "to the exclusion", but rather the "career", the source of income is the first priority...then the relationships. that is a blight upon the land, or at least a pox upon the houses. > > You can cast blame for the rise of selfishness anywhere you like; I > make no pretension to knowing where this comes from. Make no mistake > though, the "nuclear family" is a simplistic, glib "solution" tailored > to a society that wants to believe that every problem has a simple > answer. Preferably one that lends itself to easy repetition without > actual brain activity. > > > then a blight came upon the land. > > ... > > This is very poetic, but historically naiive in the extreme. > > > liberal or conservative, many of us grew up in the 50's and 60's in > > that style of "nuclear family". > > This is mythical. Many of us have grown up today in "nuclear" > families. Many of our parents and ancestors did not. Trite or not, > consider "the good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow's not as > bad as it seems". Spare a few seconds considering who benefits from > your concern about the "nuclear" family. its not mythical, it was the rule in the neighborhood i grew up in. when i fell out of tree and broke my arm, a parent was available to take me to the hospital. many, not all, "nannies" dont have driver's licenses or their own automobiles. many dont have powers of attorney to sign the required forms at the hospital. as a child, while walking my dog, the animal bolted after a squirrel that was behind me. i fell head-first onto the pavement unconscious. the neighbors closed the street to traffic and alerted my parents. where it not for the neighbors, i may have lain there till i woke up or someone came along in a car (and stopped in time, or not.) in a neighborhood of "latch-key kids" who will perform these two functions? > > > anyone that does not occassionly long > > for the days before children, when the world was only two people, > > the sun always shone brightly upon the land?) > > Heh. The answer to this one is trivially simple. If you really value > your independance; _don't_have_any_. There are bound to be plenty of > induhviduals around who'll do it for you. 8) ;) i can live with kids, its much easier on my wife and i that we get to live without them once in a while too. > > > > Hey Wes, give us Liberals a break. I must be from the old school. > > > Shell set to nologin hell. What about a hand applied to the rear end. > > > It isn't a Liberal versus conservative thing. It's an "I'm too busy > > > with my pretentious lifestyle to parent" thing. > > Indeed; _having_ the kids is part of the pretension, _looking_after_ > them is too much like hard work. > > Basically; please don't bombard us caring types with your > lightly-browned echo-mode political dribble. If it's suitable for a > ten-second sound bite, it hasn't even considered the problem. > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 09:08:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27175 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swpc30.rdg.ac.uk (swpc30.rdg.ac.uk [134.225.101.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27170 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from met.reading.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swpc30.rdg.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01264; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:07:34 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199707231607.RAA01264@swpc30.rdg.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: markb@met.reading.ac.uk Subject: paying for FreeBSD ads Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:07:34 +0100 From: Mark Blackman Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk anybody think its worth **paying** for FreeBSD ads in the print media. I noticed that BSDI is advertising on the back of "Internet" magazine (or somesuch title). wonder what that sort of thing costs... Mark Blackman Met. Dept., Univ. of Reading, Reading, UK From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 09:20:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27667 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27580; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA09910; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:47:38 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707231617.BAA09910@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707231556.IAA26405@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jul 23, 97 08:56:28 am" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:47:38 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > > > > > > once upon a time, their existed the "nuclear family" in a land called > > > america. the "nuclear family" consisted of one parent whose primary > > > duty was to produce an income that would house and feed the family. > > > the other parent's primary duty was to care for the children. > > > > It is fallacious to claim that this structure, which has stolen the > > term "nuclear family" from the actual meaning of the phrase, is > > inherently better (or worse, for that matter) than any other caring > > structure. > > okay, substitute different term for "nuclear family". This is symptomatic of the problem I am referring to. The term is irrelevant (other than that "nuclear family" originally referred to a family which considered itself/was an emotionally supportive and aware gouping); the _need_ for a single term which describes something that is considered the "ideal", let alone the belief in a single ideal that is suitable for all situations is part of the _problem_. If you believe that there can only be _one_ solution, and you have a name for what the solution is, you are blind to alternatives. This closed-mindedness is intellectual death. It serves the goals of politicians and the people that benefit from manipulating the masses very well; if all you do is react without thinking, you can be trivially controller. > > Structure is irrelevant, other than that under extreme circumstances > > it can limit content. > > i am not sure what you are calling "Structure" and what you are > calling "Content". some structures make certain activities easier > while making others more difficult. Yes, that's what I just said. Note however that I took particular pain to imply that structure constrains, not dictates, content. > they is value in a structure > that makes "doing the right thing" easier. Aha. And because there is only one "right", you only need one "structure". Very good. > > the time and effort is put in on both sides of the equation. This > > involves both children and parents, and at the moment, the trend is > > for both parties to focus on themselves to the exclusion of their > > relationships. > > i dont think its "to the exclusion", but rather the "career", > the source of income is the first priority...then the relationships. > that is a blight upon the land, or at least a pox upon the houses. This is likewise a product of the memes popular in modern western-style society. It's a goal set well suited to reducing the population to a state of mind where they can be easily manipulated and repressed. The "nuclear family" concept is not a solution to this set of problems either. It is a functional structure which suits some individuals and relationships over certain periods of their existence, certainly, but it is not a panacea. It is quite possible to mix career aspirations with parenting; in fact, many of the most signal parents I know are serious career professionals. This isn't uncommon either, if you spend some time with your head in the available literature. 8) > > > liberal or conservative, many of us grew up in the 50's and 60's in > > > that style of "nuclear family". > > > > This is mythical. Many of us have grown up today in "nuclear" > > families. Many of our parents and ancestors did not. Trite or not, > > consider "the good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow's not as > > bad as it seems". Spare a few seconds considering who benefits from > > your concern about the "nuclear" family. > > its not mythical, it was the rule in the neighborhood i grew up in. The "back in the 50's and 60's everything was right in the family world" line _is_ a myth. It is a call to the current parenting generation's early childhood, and that of their parents; a direct accusation that the current crop of parents are getting it all wrong where their seniors were just perfect. Bollocks. You want to talk about orpahanges? Children abandoned at birth because their parents weren't married? Backyard abortions? Broken homes? Domestic violence in all directions as the norm? The 50's and 60's are great periods for this sort of research. The fact of the matter is that whilst the emphasis these days is different, the situation in many cases these days is _better_ than it ever has been. What wasn't prevalent in the last baby boom was saturation media hype, and the gross distortion of reality that accompanies the profit motive. 8) > when i fell out of tree and broke my arm, a parent was available > to take me to the hospital. many, not all, "nannies" dont have > driver's licenses or their own automobiles. many dont have powers > of attorney to sign the required forms at the hospital. And you think this is more or less common that it was? > as a child, while walking my dog, the animal bolted after a squirrel > that was behind me. i fell head-first onto the pavement unconscious. > the neighbors closed the street to traffic and alerted my parents. > where it not for the neighbors, i may have lain there till i woke > up or someone came along in a car (and stopped in time, or not.) Likewise. > in a neighborhood of "latch-key kids" who will perform these two > functions? Who makes them "latch-key" kids? Who isn't there? Don't mistake me for disputing that care is necessary. But a single parent, or a dyke couple, or for that matter any guardian is capable of providing and participating in the sort of care that's involved here. It doesn't matter what the _structure_ of the parenting environment is, it's the _content_. > > Heh. The answer to this one is trivially simple. If you really value > > your independance; _don't_have_any_. There are bound to be plenty of > > induhviduals around who'll do it for you. 8) > > ;) i can live with kids, its much easier on my wife and i that > we get to live without them once in a while too. It has to be said that kids are an all-or-nothing prospect. Wanting them "just sometimes" is a great excuse to suggest that your friends have them. Personally, I prefer kittens. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 09:20:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27728 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27717 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA09925 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:49:49 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707231619.BAA09925@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <4643.869672082@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 23, 97 08:34:42 am" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:49:49 +0930 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: > Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! Woo! Go team! Voluntary ZPG! > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 09:36:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA28720 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28708 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.6/8.8.5) id SAA24695; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:01:51 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <19970723180147.58482@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:01:47 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD runs on Win95 ;) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, While looking around for that Linux article in PC Magazine, I managed to find the following: ---< http://www8.zdnet.com/zdimag/ispzone/records/01169.html >-- Product: FreeBSD Developer: FreeBSD Inc. Cost: Free Platform: Windows 95, UNIX Description: FreeBSD is an advanced BSD UNIX operating system for "PC-compatible" computers. It offers an exceptional combination of features: TCP/IP networking; advanced features for performance, security, and even binary compatibility with other popular operating systems; and is compatible with a large number of other applications. Download?: Download available --- Someone really did their homework on that one ;) -Jeremy -- | ------------------------------------------------------ --+-- "Maybe tomorrow will be better than today, | or maybe it will not come at all..." - Pam Thum | ------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 09:57:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA29780 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1679.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29607; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA17399; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:53:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <4643.869672082@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: > Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! Hmm... Does this apply to cats, too? ;-) [...] > I also don't buy the argument that Americans have to breed in order to > keep parity with some of the other countries who are knocking out new > babies faster than an army kitchen breeds roaches. If our domestic Well, in Canada, its not a matter of "breeding to keep parity", but "breeding to prevent from disappearing". If it weren't for immigration, our population would be declining (and we're not even taking into consideration the eventual death of the baby boomers, yet). Simply increasing immigration is not a good solution. For starters, there will be a backlash. More importantly, if we become dependant on the existance of third-world countries to produce people, we will have a reduced incentive to help these third-world countries develop (since developed countries simply do not have the overpopulation problems). jmb would argue that parents are putting careers ahead of their family. I don't think that this is fair. Despite all the speak of "empowerment" and what-not, I think the reason that both parents are often working now is simple economics. There may well be some who do this, but not the vast masses. What is necessary are available _quality_ daycare and enforced flexible work hours. I don't claim to be a big fan of daycare, but please don't argue that it simply can't compare to the fulltime attention of a parent. There are too many parents who have no idea of what they're doing for me to buy that. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 09:57:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA29803 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29796 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA07620; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:55:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Blackman cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: paying for FreeBSD ads In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:07:34 BST." <199707231607.RAA01264@swpc30.rdg.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:55:47 -0700 Message-ID: <7616.869676947@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > anybody think its worth **paying** for FreeBSD ads in > the print media. I noticed that BSDI is advertising on > the back of "Internet" magazine (or somesuch title). It sometimes is, assuming that the advert is well done and the magazine appropriately selected. Magazines like UNIX Review, for example, have traditionally generated _zero_ response for Walnut Creek CDROM, whereas PC Magazine and Dr Dobb's Journal have always paid off very well in increased sales. You have to pick your targets carefully if you're going to spend real $$$ on advertising. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 10:04:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00351 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00258; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:02:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231702.KAA00258@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707231617.BAA09910@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jul 24, 97 01:47:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > > > > > > > > once upon a time, their existed the "nuclear family" in a land called > > > > america. the "nuclear family" consisted of one parent whose primary > > > > duty was to produce an income that would house and feed the family. > > > > the other parent's primary duty was to care for the children. > > > > > > It is fallacious to claim that this structure, which has stolen the > > > term "nuclear family" from the actual meaning of the phrase, is > > > inherently better (or worse, for that matter) than any other caring > > > structure. > > > > okay, substitute different term for "nuclear family". > > This is symptomatic of the problem I am referring to. The term is > irrelevant (other than that "nuclear family" originally referred to a > family which considered itself/was an emotionally supportive and > aware gouping); the _need_ for a single term which describes something > that is considered the "ideal", let alone the belief in a single ideal > that is suitable for all situations is part of the _problem_. > > If you believe that there can only be _one_ solution, and you have > a name for what the solution is, you are blind to alternatives. > > This closed-mindedness is intellectual death. It serves the goals of > politicians and the people that benefit from manipulating the masses > very well; if all you do is react without thinking, you can be > trivially controller. whoa, mike! please read what i have written and dont load me down with a load of material i have have not advocated. "nuclear family" was not meant to create a thread of its own. you want to use "an emotionally supportive and aware gouping"? fine, given my typing skills i'll use AESAAW. in speaking from experience, i spoke of a single type of AESAAW because it is the only one that i know first hand. the AESAAW i spoke of originally had two adult members in the house with the children---genders were not specified. mix and match to taste. you want three adults, cool...there have been a number of societies with more then two adults in the AESAAW. dont load me down with the prejudicies (sp?) of others. > > > > Structure is irrelevant, other than that under extreme circumstances > > > it can limit content. > > > > i am not sure what you are calling "Structure" and what you are > > calling "Content". some structures make certain activities easier > > while making others more difficult. > > Yes, that's what I just said. Note however that I took particular > pain to imply that structure constrains, not dictates, content. > > > they is value in a structure > > that makes "doing the right thing" easier. > > Aha. And because there is only one "right", you only need one > "structure". Very good. "the right thing" is to raise the children to be a credit to their family and society. if we cant agree on that, i'll drop out of the conversation. > > > > the time and effort is put in on both sides of the equation. This > > > involves both children and parents, and at the moment, the trend is > > > for both parties to focus on themselves to the exclusion of their > > > relationships. > > > > i dont think its "to the exclusion", but rather the "career", > > the source of income is the first priority...then the relationships. > > that is a blight upon the land, or at least a pox upon the houses. > > This is likewise a product of the memes popular in modern > western-style society. It's a goal set well suited to reducing the > population to a state of mind where they can be easily manipulated and > repressed. > > The "nuclear family" concept is not a solution to this set of problems > either. It is a functional structure which suits some individuals and > relationships over certain periods of their existence, certainly, but it > is not a panacea. > > It is quite possible to mix career aspirations with parenting; in > fact, many of the most signal parents I know are serious career > professionals. This isn't uncommon either, if you spend some time > with your head in the available literature. 8) did i hear you say it was easier? it is possible to write fortran to do string processing, i would not advocate it to someone. my father was raised in a single parent home from the age of 11. my grandfather was killed in a car accident. he is a fine person, a credit to his family and society. growing up in a single parent household was harder. let's not pretend otherwise. possible, but harder. > > > > > liberal or conservative, many of us grew up in the 50's and 60's in > > > > that style of "nuclear family". > > > > > > This is mythical. Many of us have grown up today in "nuclear" > > > families. Many of our parents and ancestors did not. Trite or not, > > > consider "the good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow's not as > > > bad as it seems". Spare a few seconds considering who benefits from > > > your concern about the "nuclear" family. > > > > its not mythical, it was the rule in the neighborhood i grew up in. > > The "back in the 50's and 60's everything was right in the family > world" line _is_ a myth. It is a call to the current parenting > generation's early childhood, and that of their parents; a direct > accusation that the current crop of parents are getting it all wrong > where their seniors were just perfect. who said "everything was right"? can we limit this to a single issue? > > Bollocks. You want to talk about orpahanges? Children abandoned at > birth because their parents weren't married? Backyard abortions? > Broken homes? Domestic violence in all directions as the norm? The > 50's and 60's are great periods for this sort of research. you forgot racism and anti-semitism. on the other hand, we might mention inner city poverty rates have risen (there once was a thriving black commerical district in washington dc, it was burned out in '68 and has never bee rebuilt.) drug traffic (always been some, the number of murders due to the drug trade is higher) school violence (no metal detectors when i went to school) teen pregency rate (did we make love less? did we know more about birth control? could we not have been doing it right?) i'm sure that other can add to the list. > > The fact of the matter is that whilst the emphasis these days is > different, the situation in many cases these days is _better_ than it > ever has been. What wasn't prevalent in the last baby boom was > saturation media hype, and the gross distortion of reality that > accompanies the profit motive. 8) > > > when i fell out of tree and broke my arm, a parent was available > > to take me to the hospital. many, not all, "nannies" dont have > > driver's licenses or their own automobiles. many dont have powers > > of attorney to sign the required forms at the hospital. > the fall, no. the parent being availble, yes. > And you think this is more or less common that it was? > > > as a child, while walking my dog, the animal bolted after a squirrel > > that was behind me. i fell head-first onto the pavement unconscious. > > the neighbors closed the street to traffic and alerted my parents. > > where it not for the neighbors, i may have lain there till i woke > > up or someone came along in a car (and stopped in time, or not.) > > Likewise. > > > in a neighborhood of "latch-key kids" who will perform these two > > functions? > > Who makes them "latch-key" kids? Who isn't there? Don't mistake me > for disputing that care is necessary. But a single parent, or a dyke > couple, or for that matter any guardian is capable of providing and > participating in the sort of care that's involved here. It doesn't > matter what the _structure_ of the parenting environment is, it's the > _content_. i dont care if there are 1,2,3...n adults of whatever gender. that's not my business, that is their personal matter. > > > > Heh. The answer to this one is trivially simple. If you really value > > > your independance; _don't_have_any_. There are bound to be plenty of > > > induhviduals around who'll do it for you. 8) > > > > ;) i can live with kids, its much easier on my wife and i that > > we get to live without them once in a while too. > > It has to be said that kids are an all-or-nothing prospect. Wanting > them "just sometimes" is a great excuse to suggest that your friends > have them. of course, its all-or-nothing. who suggested otherwise? does that mean that i cant have another couples children stay over one night so the parents can have some time off? seems very reasonable to me. > > Personally, I prefer kittens. do you have children? my feelings about the abortion/contraception issue is "if you are not in the game, you cant make the rules." same with regard to discussing how to raise children. if you dont know first hand the demands of raising children, then let me bow out of this conversation and concede to you. if such is the case, we dont have enough shared experience to continue this. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 10:20:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01171 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01022; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:18:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231718.KAA01022@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Jul 23, 97 12:53:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > jmb would argue that parents are putting careers ahead of their > family. I don't think that this is fair. Despite all the speak of > "empowerment" and what-not, I think the reason that both parents are > often working now is simple economics. There may well be some who > do this, but not the vast masses. > BINGO! what my parents were able to do on a single salary, now requires more than one. economics have forced many people into a two working parent household. its not unteneable, but it is more difficult. whether they are "putting careers ahead of their family" depends upon the wage levels of the people involved and their needs. > What is necessary are available _quality_ daycare and enforced > flexible work hours. > > I don't claim to be a big fan of daycare, but please don't argue > that it simply can't compare to the fulltime attention of a parent. > There are too many parents who have no idea of what they're doing > for me to buy that. daycare is not "low wage nanny". i've seen some great daycare and some that's no so great. like most things in life its a mixed-bag. hmm....parents are a mixed-bag too ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 10:24:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01332 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01326; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:24:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231724.KAA01326@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199707231619.BAA09925@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jul 24, 97 01:49:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: > > Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! > > Woo! Go team! Voluntary ZPG! who will volunteer for ZPG....the best educated, the most caring members of society or least? would you want to live in a society that results from X generations of the best educated and most caring members of society practicing ZPG while the rest of society did not...not for me, thank you. jmb p.s. and no i am not advocating any compulsory measures. sheesh! From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 10:41:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02310 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02157; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id DAA10591; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:07:52 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707231737.DAA10591@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707231702.KAA00258@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jul 23, 97 10:02:19 am" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:07:51 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (I don't want to start a brawl here; I suspect that in many regards we're really in violent agreement, so I'll just pick on the points that I feel are worth expanding.) Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > > This closed-mindedness is intellectual death. It serves the goals of > > politicians and the people that benefit from manipulating the masses > > very well; if all you do is react without thinking, you can be > > trivially controlled. > > whoa, mike! please read what i have written and dont load me > down with a load of material i have have not advocated. Er, you came out pretty hard and fast with the old "gotta be one parent winnin' the bread and one holdin' the babies" line. Sorry, but that's just what I'm about. > > Aha. And because there is only one "right", you only need one > > "structure". Very good. > > "the right thing" is to raise the children to be a credit > to their family and society. if we cant agree on that, > i'll drop out of the conversation. That depends on who gets to decide what is a "credit". If you define "credit" in the context of the preexisting society, then again you are advocating stagnation and the ultimate death of said society. You can look at the current situation as an excellent example of what happens when people are raised with the intention of "making" them a credit to society. There is a very good treatment of this in Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age". Do you still have time to read books? 8) <-- note > did i hear you say it was easier? it is possible to write > fortran to do string processing, i would not advocate it > to someone. No, you didn't. "easier" is a relative assessment, suitable for evaluation of situations on a case-by-case basis. The static family can often seriously inhibit a childs emotional and intellectual development by imprinting irrational and contrived behaviour patterns. Later in life these can cause some fairly unpleasant problems. This is wandering off-topic though. > > The "back in the 50's and 60's everything was right in the family > > world" line _is_ a myth. It is a call to the current parenting > > generation's early childhood, and that of their parents; a direct > > accusation that the current crop of parents are getting it all wrong > > where their seniors were just perfect. > > who said "everything was right"? > can we limit this to a single issue? I'm trying to 8) The selling of any single solution to "society's problems" is what I'm aiming at. > you forgot racism and anti-semitism. No; these seem to be fairly constant. People are easily convinced to be afraid of things; "different" and "strange" and "looks funny" are good cues for this. Oddly relevant, really. > inner city poverty rates have risen (there once was a > thriving black commerical district in washington dc, it > was burned out in '68 and has never bee rebuilt.) ... yet the real-terms income of poor blacks in america is something like three times what it was in the late 50's. The poor haven't actually done anything about being poor for centuries; why change now? (Warning; the above is a simplified throwaway line. Don't bite it.) > drug traffic (always been some, the number of murders due > to the drug trade is higher) This is an artificial product, courtesy of a combination of foreign trade, media input and government assistance. You could describe it as an environmental effect; it certainly isn't directly or indirectly a product of the breakdown of "family values". > school violence (no metal detectors when i went to school) ... so duelling is back in style. Well we had about a century or so of quiet. > teen pregency rate (did we make love less? did we know > more about birth control? could we not have been doing it > right?) Contraceptive education and use in the USA is at its lowest since before the war. Numbers in Australia are quite a lot better. Go figure. You need to bear variations in the reporting and recording of numbers like this in mind as well. > > It has to be said that kids are an all-or-nothing prospect. Wanting > > them "just sometimes" is a great excuse to suggest that your friends > > have them. > > of course, its all-or-nothing. who suggested otherwise? > does that mean that i cant have another couples children > stay over one night so the parents can have some time off? > seems very reasonable to me. That's just what I _said_. > > Personally, I prefer kittens. > > do you have children? No. I'm pro-choice, and my choice is no. > my feelings about the abortion/contraception issue is > "if you are not in the game, you cant make the rules." > > same with regard to discussing how to raise children. Oh, very cute. So I can't actually have an opinion, despite _not_ having a hormonal bias? That sounds remarkably facile to me. It's right up there with "you don't agree with me, so your opinion doesn't really count". > if you dont know first hand the demands of raising children, > then let me bow out of this conversation and concede to you. > if such is the case, we dont have enough shared experience > to continue this. How can anyone that opens their eyes during their own upbringing _not_ have a firsthand experience of raising a child? I'm no social outcast; I have a not inconsiderable collection of friends and contacts raising kids, and have spent my share of time participating in their upbringing. To tell me that because none of them have my DNA I cannot possibly contribute to the discussion is probably the truest indication of the mindset that I started this rant against in the first place. > jmb -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 10:46:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02577 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02561; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id DAA10672; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:16:19 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707231746.DAA10672@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations] In-Reply-To: <199707231724.KAA01326@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jul 23, 97 10:24:48 am" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:16:19 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > Michael Smith wrote: > > > > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: > > > Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! > > > > Woo! Go team! Voluntary ZPG! > > who will volunteer for ZPG....the best educated, the most > caring members of society or least? would you want to live > in a society that results from X generations of the best > educated and most caring members of society practicing > ZPG while the rest of society did not...not for me, thank you. Yeah, gotta agree with you here. Pity though. 8( Actually, bottom line is if there are more stupid people, that's less competition for me. Now if I just didn't have to live on the same planet. > p.s. and no i am not advocating any compulsory measures. > sheesh! Heh. Depressing movie. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 10:47:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02637 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02555; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA07911; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:43:13 -0700 (PDT) To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:53:21 EDT." Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:43:13 -0700 Message-ID: <7906.869679793@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [jkh feels expansive before lunch] > Hmm... Does this apply to cats, too? ;-) Sure does. Wish I'd been at home when mine got knocked up rather than on the other side of the country on a contract. :) > Well, in Canada, its not a matter of "breeding to keep parity", but > "breeding to prevent from disappearing". If it weren't for > immigration, our population would be declining (and we're not even And why is there always this patriotic assumption that it would be such a bad thing? Populations have always moved around, the jet & ship age simply increasing the speed of that migration, and I think that the real problems stem from our attempts to stick to outmoded ideas rather than truly adapting to the pace of social change we're now experiencing. We are, in short, living in a state of extreme denial. I would argue that rather than arguing for the perpetuation of increasingly arbitrary genetic entities like "Canada", the most logical solution would be to simply de-emphasize the whole border concept and try to think of things more in terms of resources being moved to wherever they need to go, be those resources human or material. The fact that humans have historically formed attachments to geographic areas, subject to some of the odd location-based nationalism that comes with it, should hardly be viewed as an immutable facet of human existence and the fact that moving people around has been painful in the past makes it no certainty that humans cannot adapt (and with less pain) to a different lifestyle. In transition this is a painful process to be sure, and many of america's early nomads (largely people who moved around constantly during childhood) have paid the price of being nomads in a global society still poorly adapted to the idea of large-scale nomadism. We're getting better at it, however, and while many may bemoan the homogenization process which air travel has brought about (I.E. the "McDonalds in Paris effect"), there's at least some comfort in the fact that it's an inevitable step if you're looking at creating a global society where anyone can essentially come from anywhere else and find enough local anchor points (cuisine, language, etc) to be comfortable. I'm also not arguing against diversity, don't get me wrong - I'll be as sad as anyone to see the "pure ethnicity" of certain regions diffuse into discordant mosaics of every significant world culture on the planet, but hey - I'm also a realist. :) The "backlash" problem of immigration you point to, on a world-wide basis, is something which merely requires attitude adjustment - there are no real technical barriers to doing it and I think it's also something which we'll have increasingly less choice about as time goes on. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 10:59:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03225 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03217; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26546; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:57:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id MAA18105; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:59:26 -0500 Message-ID: <19970723125924.34666@right.PCS> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:59:24 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations References: <199707231619.BAA09925@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <199707231724.KAA01326@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199707231724.KAA01326@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Jul 07, 1997 at 10:24:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 07, 1997 at 10:24:48AM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Michael Smith wrote: > > > > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: > > > Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! > > > > Woo! Go team! Voluntary ZPG! > > who will volunteer for ZPG....the best educated, the most > caring members of society or least? would you want to live > in a society that results from X generations of the best > educated and most caring members of society practicing > ZPG while the rest of society did not...not for me, thank you. An interesting statistic is that the most educated members of the population have, as a group, less than 2 children, and thus do not contribute to the population growth. Less educated members tend to have larger families and contribute more to the population growth. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 10:59:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03245 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03195 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem11.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19136; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:21:41 -0400 Message-Id: <33D659ED.7402@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:22:21 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations References: <4643.869672082@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: > Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! > The poor population around this countries consider that having children actually is an insurance policy for the future... the so-called "nuclear-family" also means your children will maintain you in the future. That "don't reproduce" issue is a personal issue that has moral an even religious implications. In general the USA has many contrasts in their people. Many north-americans are plainly stupid, others are simply brilliant, I have never understood how such a variety can exist. I also don't understand well how they go from joke to deadly serious in the same sentence. In the rest of the countries everyone seems to have the same intelligence levels, but education makes the difference. > > I also don't buy the argument that Americans have to breed in order to > keep parity with some of the other countries who are knocking out new > babies faster than an army kitchen breeds roaches. If our domestic > population should start declining, and that's something I rather doubt > could happen in any case, we can always just bump up immigration > quotas another notch and bring in the educated top percentage of > whichever countries have the greatest surplus. Even assuming a very > small percentage of educated citizens in any given 3rd world country, > the supply is still great enough (and the attractiveness of moving to > a less overcrowded country high enough) that I think it's likely to > stay a "buyer's market" for some time to come. > *sight* Jordan is broken again...You as many other US citizens still don't get it: You cannot control which persons actually get into your country. Humans are sedentary by nature, we simply don't go elsewhere because we live very well here: we have excellent food, excellent health services, satellite TV, beautiful and faithful women, pure air (well this is changing :-(), and some of us are even subscribed to FreeBSD :). Why would we go to the USA? Only the people with very low level of education that can survive doing stupid jobs like cutting the grass in your lawn would want to live there. Last time I went to the USA everyone wondered just how I speaked two languages, where did I learn to operate a refrigerator or a TV without RTFM, and if our primary mean of transportation were trees. Everyone kept asking me to stay in the US, well believe me NY is not very different from Bogota...Actually NY is more dangerous and it has more drug addicts. I have never seen cocaine in my life, except on TV ! Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 11:01:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03356 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1679.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03240; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA17499; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:57:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Michael Smith , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707231702.KAA00258@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > "the right thing" is to raise the children to be a credit > to their family and society. if we cant agree on that, > i'll drop out of the conversation. How disrespectful to these children. Their whole purpose is to live for their family and society. Using empirical evidence, I insist that this is a great way to make many children truly resent their parents. Respect is so very important. Your "right thing" works entirely counter to that. The "right thing" is to raise children who belong to God. In lue of that, you may settle for "realize their full potential" and other such cliches, but _please_, not "bring credit to their family". > my feelings about the abortion/contraception issue is > "if you are not in the game, you cant make the rules." > > same with regard to discussing how to raise children. Interesting. With this you have just told the very children you are trying to raise that they are not entitled to an opinion. You shut-off the most important feedback mechanism on your success. It's unfortunate that my opinion means nothing to you simply because of my age. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 11:03:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03523 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03394; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA08038; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:58:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Pedro Giffuni cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:22:21 PDT." <33D659ED.7402@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:58:25 -0700 Message-ID: <8035.869680705@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > future. That "don't reproduce" issue is a personal issue that has moral > an even religious implications. Once we pass 10 billion people, and that's not long in coming, I doubt that many will be giving the "it's a personal issue!" argument much weight. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 11:23:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04819 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1679.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04753; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA17539; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:18:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <7906.869679793@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > And why is there always this patriotic assumption that it would be > such a bad thing? Populations have always moved around, the jet & I will try to be a little bit more direct in expressing my concern. Consider that Canada is a developed country. By no means perfect, and, in fact, with many very evident flaws (which pundits and commentaries always take the opportunity to remind us of every time we top the UN's "best country" list). Consider that as living standards increase, or, more accurately, as the country becomes more "developed", the birth rate falls. Now consider our hope that global living standards will increase over time. My concern is not that any given genetic group will disappear, but that we as a human race may. Yes, for example, the US is a developed country, and it has an increasing population, but consider where this increase comes from? I would be surprised if it came from anywhere other than the substandard areas of the country. > I would argue that rather than arguing for the perpetuation of > increasingly arbitrary genetic entities like "Canada", the most > logical solution would be to simply de-emphasize the whole border > concept and try to think of things more in terms of resources being > moved to wherever they need to go, be those resources human or My concern is global; my example was local. > I'm also not arguing against diversity, don't get me wrong - I'll be > as sad as anyone to see the "pure ethnicity" of certain regions Well, for the sake of this email, I have tried not to fall back onto the argument of diversity, which is hard after being exposed to years of government advertising promoting diversity. :-) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 11:24:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04989 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04974; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA08177; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:22:45 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:24:48 PDT." <199707231724.KAA01326@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:22:45 -0700 Message-ID: <8173.869682165@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > p.s. and no i am not advocating any compulsory measures. > sheesh! I am. Retroactively. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 11:51:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06649 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06641; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA14333; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:51:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:51:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707231851.MAA14333@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: ac199@hwcn.org Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: References: <4643.869672082@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > jmb would argue that parents are putting careers ahead of their > family. I don't think that this is fair. Despite all the speak of > "empowerment" and what-not, I think the reason that both parents are > often working now is simple economics. There may well be some who > do this, but not the vast masses. I disagree. I live in Montana, where we have one of the lowest income/family in the nation. And, due to it's 'ruralness' we haven't kept up with the 'standard' with two working parents, so most two-parent families leave one of them at home *in spite* of their low-income. This is mostly due to what's acceptable from being a parent, and what's not in rural America. It's all a matter of what's important. Is having a car that < 3 years old, sending your kids to private schools, having nice furniture, or children that spend time with their parents more important? It's all a matter of perspective. To over-simplify it, you have a choice of spending time with your kids now, or providing a good future for them apart from you. If you're a parent, go ask you kids which choice they prefer. :) :) :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:04:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07410 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA07329 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem03.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16674; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:52:37 -0400 Message-Id: <33D66F3C.604C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:53:16 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations References: <8035.869680705@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > future. That "don't reproduce" issue is a personal issue that has moral > > an even religious implications. > > Once we pass 10 billion people, and that's not long in coming, I doubt > that many will be giving the "it's a personal issue!" argument much > weight. :-) > > Jordan Mr Malthus, The news is that population has it's own means of controlling itself, Food and production also grows, people turn gay, and JIC someone will plant a bomb in mall or start a little war some place. Well honestly some people don't think with the box they have over their shoulders, so I sort of agree with you...Of course, I won't stop you from controlling your reproduction . Go ahead save the world ! :-) Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:05:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07526 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07516; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16515; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20248; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:19:21 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive Reply-To: The Classiest Man Alive To: Jaye Mathisen cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -current report. :) (moved to chat/questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jaye Mathisen wrote: : Well, I took the plunge, and upgraded my crash-ridden 2.2.2 INN newsserver : to 3.0-current as of 7/19, and it's been solid as the proverbial rock : for a few days now. Okay, see, now you've got me worried. What crashes? I convinced my IS manager to let me set up our news server with FreeBSD rather than NT. I'm using 2.2.1, but I read that 2.2.2 fixes some problems with using an Adaptec 2940 under a heavy load, so I thought I'd upgrade to the latest release. And now you tell me this? So, from your experience, should I upgrade to 2.2.2 or should I stick it out with 2.2.1? I don't think 3.0-current is much of an option for me. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:16:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08211 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA08082; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707231911.PAA16607@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.6.0. Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:11:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > How disrespectful to these children. Their whole purpose is to live > for their family and society. Using empirical evidence, I insist > that this is a great way to make many children truly resent their > parents. > > Respect is so very important. > > Your "right thing" works entirely counter to that. The "right > thing" is to raise children who belong to God. In lue of that, you > may settle for "realize their full potential" and other such > cliches, but _please_, not "bring credit to their family". You raise them to belong to belong to some non-entity, and then tell them they are respected as property? Sorry, my kids will be mine till they have enough brains not to walk into traffic without looking both ways, then they are their own problem (for the most part of course...your kids will always be your kids.) Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:19:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08316 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08295; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA08413; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:18:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -current report. :) (moved to chat/questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I really can't say. Other people use FreeBSD just fine for their newsserver, and I did too, but I would get these random fs-related crashes. John Dyson looked at them, and said "yep, looks like some vnode locking problems", and patched up 3.0 (as far as I can tell). However, the patches never made it into 2.2.2. I was able to reproduce it on 2 different machines. I would still use 2.2.2 and get the adaptec fixes, you should be fine, and certainly plenty of people are using FreeBSD for newsserver just fine. Must've just been my combo... On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jaye Mathisen wrote: > > : Well, I took the plunge, and upgraded my crash-ridden 2.2.2 INN newsserver > : to 3.0-current as of 7/19, and it's been solid as the proverbial rock > : for a few days now. > > Okay, see, now you've got me worried. What crashes? I convinced my IS > manager to let me set up our news server with FreeBSD rather than NT. I'm > using 2.2.1, but I read that 2.2.2 fixes some problems with using an > Adaptec 2940 under a heavy load, so I thought I'd upgrade to the latest > release. And now you tell me this? > > So, from your experience, should I upgrade to 2.2.2 or should I stick it > out with 2.2.1? I don't think 3.0-current is much of an option for me. > > K.S. > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:19:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08348 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08254; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14608; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:16:12 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:16:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707231916.NAA14608@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Pedro Giffuni Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <33D659ED.7402@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> References: <4643.869672082@time.cdrom.com> <33D659ED.7402@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > whichever countries have the greatest surplus. Even assuming a very > > small percentage of educated citizens in any given 3rd world country, > > the supply is still great enough (and the attractiveness of moving to > > a less overcrowded country high enough) that I think it's likely to > > stay a "buyer's market" for some time to come. > > > *sight* Jordan is broken again...You as many other US citizens still > don't get it: You cannot control which persons actually get into your > country. Sure you can. > Why would we go to the USA? Because there are more opportunities here. People in Western Europe (and even now in Eastern Europe) are in a completely differen niche than say people in India. There are too many people there, and there are few opportunities. A couple good friends are from India, and they moved to American because of the education/opportunities here, and never plan on leaving. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:30:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09028 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08991; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id EAA11343; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:58:59 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707231928.EAA11343@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: -current report. :) (moved to chat/questions) In-Reply-To: from The Classiest Man Alive at "Jul 23, 97 03:19:21 pm" To: ksmm@cybercom.net Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:58:58 +0930 (CST) Cc: mrcpu@cdsnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Classiest Man Alive stands accused of saying: > Okay, see, now you've got me worried. What crashes? I convinced my IS > manager to let me set up our news server with FreeBSD rather than NT. I'm > using 2.2.1, but I read that 2.2.2 fixes some problems with using an > Adaptec 2940 under a heavy load, so I thought I'd upgrade to the latest > release. And now you tell me this? Lots of people are happy with 2.2-stable. I'd suggest bring it up in test mode and run it for a few days under a test load and see how it holds up. Make sure you're using inn as configured out of the ports collection, particularly with the mmap stuff off. > So, from your experience, should I upgrade to 2.2.2 or should I stick it > out with 2.2.1? I don't think 3.0-current is much of an option for me. Do a 2.2.2 install and then 'make world' to bring it up to -stable. The world build will also be a good shakeout of the system before you put it into serious work. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:38:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09444 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09373; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:36:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231936.MAA09373@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707231737.DAA10591@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jul 24, 97 03:07:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > (I don't want to start a brawl here; I suspect that in many regards > we're really in violent agreement, so I'll just pick on the points > that I feel are worth expanding.) yes, i think we are in violent agreement. i used some terms that are too over-loaded in my first message...natural language is so much slippier than C. > > Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > > > This closed-mindedness is intellectual death. It serves the goals of > > > politicians and the people that benefit from manipulating the masses > > > very well; if all you do is react without thinking, you can be > > > trivially controlled. > > > > whoa, mike! please read what i have written and dont load me > > down with a load of material i have have not advocated. > > Er, you came out pretty hard and fast with the old "gotta be one parent > winnin' the bread and one holdin' the babies" line. Sorry, but that's > just what I'm about. doesn't have to be. specialization does work well, though. every "advanced society" that i have every read about is based upon specialization. one trick is how to keep the specialists from making unreasonable demands upon everyone else, but i digress. > > > > Aha. And because there is only one "right", you only need one > > > "structure". Very good. > > > > "the right thing" is to raise the children to be a credit > > to their family and society. if we cant agree on that, > > i'll drop out of the conversation. > > That depends on who gets to decide what is a "credit". If you define > "credit" in the context of the preexisting society, then again you > are advocating stagnation and the ultimate death of said society. > > You can look at the current situation as an excellent example of what > happens when people are raised with the intention of "making" them a > credit to society. There is a very good treatment of this in Neal > Stephenson's "The Diamond Age". Do you still have time to read books? not as much as i would like.....still have not read a number of russian classics that i want to read, there is a new translation of the iliad that is supposed to be excellent. read Les Miserables recently (unabridged) ;) > > 8) <-- note no i have not read it. but it looks interesting...i have to see if i can get a copy. http://www-user.cibola.net/~michaela/diamondage/stephen.htm Neal Stephenson is 35 years old and lives in Seattle, Washington. He has written three other books, The Big U , Zodiac, and Snow Crash. Bruce Sterling has said that he "is the first second-generation, native cyberpunk science-fiction writer. Unlike most of the original '80s cyberpunks, he grew up in the new technoculture and, with a hacker's background knows how it really works." Some of his major influences include Heinlein and Andre Norton. > > > did i hear you say it was easier? it is possible to write > > fortran to do string processing, i would not advocate it > > to someone. > > No, you didn't. "easier" is a relative assessment, suitable for > evaluation of situations on a case-by-case basis. > > The static family can often seriously inhibit a childs emotional and > intellectual development by imprinting irrational and contrived > behaviour patterns. Later in life these can cause some fairly > unpleasant problems. This is wandering off-topic though. "static family" is not a term that i am familiar with. i dont know what it means. > > > > The "back in the 50's and 60's everything was right in the family > > > world" line _is_ a myth. It is a call to the current parenting > > > generation's early childhood, and that of their parents; a direct > > > accusation that the current crop of parents are getting it all wrong > > > where their seniors were just perfect. > > > > who said "everything was right"? > > can we limit this to a single issue? > > I'm trying to 8) The selling of any single solution to "society's > problems" is what I'm aiming at. > > > you forgot racism and anti-semitism. > > No; these seem to be fairly constant. People are easily convinced hmmm....lot fewer lynchings in the usa than there were 50 years ago. a black on the supreme court and two jews. the previous chief of staff was black. i think somethings have changed. at least for the moment, perhaps for a longer period. > to be afraid of things; "different" and "strange" and "looks funny" > are good cues for this. Oddly relevant, really. > > > inner city poverty rates have risen (there once was a > > thriving black commerical district in washington dc, it > > was burned out in '68 and has never bee rebuilt.) > > ... yet the real-terms income of poor blacks in america is something like the average employee at microsoft makes over $100,000. sample distribution is everything, one outlier skews the average. but that is another topic. > three times what it was in the late 50's. The poor haven't actually > done anything about being poor for centuries; why change now? > (Warning; the above is a simplified throwaway line. Don't bite it.) > > > drug traffic (always been some, the number of murders due > > to the drug trade is higher) > > This is an artificial product, courtesy of a combination of foreign > trade, media input and government assistance. You could describe it > as an environmental effect; it certainly isn't directly or indirectly > a product of the breakdown of "family values". > > > school violence (no metal detectors when i went to school) > > ... so duelling is back in style. Well we had about a century or so > of quiet. let them duel in the fields not in the hallways :) > > teen pregency rate (did we make love less? did we know > > more about birth control? could we not have been doing it > > right?) > > Contraceptive education and use in the USA is at its lowest since > before the war. Numbers in Australia are quite a lot better. Go > figure. You need to bear variations in the reporting and recording of > numbers like this in mind as well. > > > > It has to be said that kids are an all-or-nothing prospect. Wanting > > > them "just sometimes" is a great excuse to suggest that your friends > > > have them. > > > > of course, its all-or-nothing. who suggested otherwise? > > does that mean that i cant have another couples children > > stay over one night so the parents can have some time off? > > seems very reasonable to me. > > That's just what I _said_. > > > > Personally, I prefer kittens. > > > > do you have children? > > No. I'm pro-choice, and my choice is no. > > > my feelings about the abortion/contraception issue is > > "if you are not in the game, you cant make the rules." > > > > same with regard to discussing how to raise children. > > Oh, very cute. So I can't actually have an opinion, despite _not_ > having a hormonal bias? That sounds remarkably facile to me. "a hormonal bias"???? i dont understand. > > It's right up there with "you don't agree with me, so your opinion > doesn't really count". not at all. the question is one of experience, not whether or not you agree with me. ask your friends and contacts about their ideas regarding children and how those ideas changed as their children grow. my oldest is 13, i have a lot of learning before me as she goes through her teenage years. it would be very presumptious of me to tell others what those years will be like. i can imagine, i can read, i can talk to others, but how i react when faced with a situation is unknown till it happens. imagine any difficult situation, and ask if you will behave as you would wish to...many have failed when faced with that challenge, perhaps most. in a period of racism, how many stand up for the oppressed? how many remain silent? and how many cooperate. many countries in europe are still grappling with these questions. > > > if you dont know first hand the demands of raising children, > > then let me bow out of this conversation and concede to you. > > if such is the case, we dont have enough shared experience > > to continue this. > > How can anyone that opens their eyes during their own upbringing _not_ > have a firsthand experience of raising a child? I'm no social > outcast; I have a not inconsiderable collection of friends and contacts > raising kids, and have spent my share of time participating in their > upbringing. you might be right but i have found the exxperience to be very different now that i am on the other end. > > To tell me that because none of them have my DNA I cannot possibly > contribute to the discussion is probably the truest indication of the > mindset that I started this rant against in the first place. certainly you can contribute. nonetheless i feel that first hand experience is irreplaceable. in america, teh pharse "monday morning quarterback" is used to discribe (american) football fans that "know" how the game should have been played on the preceding sunday. (i expect there is a similar pharse in oz. DNA has nothing to do with it. there are thousands of children awaiting adoption. ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:45:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09763 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09748; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:45:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231945.MAA09748@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19970723125924.34666@right.PCS> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Jul 23, 97 12:59:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > On Jul 07, 1997 at 10:24:48AM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Michael Smith wrote: > > > > > > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > > There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: > > > > Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! > > > > > > Woo! Go team! Voluntary ZPG! > > > > who will volunteer for ZPG....the best educated, the most > > caring members of society or least? would you want to live > > in a society that results from X generations of the best > > educated and most caring members of society practicing > > ZPG while the rest of society did not...not for me, thank you. > > An interesting statistic is that the most educated members of the population > have, as a group, less than 2 children, and thus do not contribute to the > population growth. Less educated members tend to have larger families and > contribute more to the population growth. WARNING: no solid data. seems to me that this is a recent change. effective, tolerable contraception is relatively recent, before that everyone had a lot of children, and many died trying. (js bach, 25 kids?) the better educated may have had a higher precentage of their children survive. WARNING: no solid data. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 12:57:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10305 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10291; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707231957.MAA10291@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <8173.869682165@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 23, 97 11:22:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > p.s. and no i am not advocating any compulsory measures. > > sheesh! > > I am. Retroactively. :-) why am i afraid to ask for a clarification? ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 13:03:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA10622 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA10614; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707232003.NAA10614@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ac199@hwcn.org, jmb@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707231851.MAA14333@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jul 23, 97 12:51:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > > To over-simplify it, you have a choice of spending time with your kids > now, or providing a good future for them apart from you. If you're a > parent, go ask you kids which choice they prefer. :) :) :) for most of the population, the choice is that stark. one quick fix element: take the tax exemption for dependents as of 1950 and raise it to account for inflation. index it to inflation from here to eternity. $10,000 per ? i forget what the number would be. currently $2,550 jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 13:28:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12114 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1537.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12064; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA17709; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:23:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Jamie Bowden cc: ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707231911.PAA16607@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > [...] > > > > Your "right thing" works entirely counter to that. The "right > > thing" is to raise children who belong to God. In lue of that, you > > may settle for "realize their full potential" and other such > > cliches, but _please_, not "bring credit to their family". > > You raise them to belong to belong to some non-entity, and then tell them > they are respected as property? Sorry, my kids will be mine till they > have enough brains not to walk into traffic without looking both ways, > then they are their own problem (for the most part of course...your kids > will always be your kids.) I probably choose a poor term, given the context. Points I am making are, #1) They are FULLY respected as people, regardless of their social/family position relative to the parent. This is necessary to develop a good relationship with the children. I believe that jmb's argument that the purpose of children is to give "credit to their family" works counter to this. Because I discredited jmb's ``goal in raising children'', I had to offer my own substitute. It is #2. For the many who cannot abide by this, I even mentioned yet another possibility. #2) The most important decision they make is to give themselves to God. These two do not conflict. The idea with #1 is that we do not discard the children (their opinions, ideas, etc) as somehow being of less value than ours. I could also go on to explain that despite #2, a certain equality exists between God and man, but that goes clearly into the area of religion, and besides, opinion on that changes every ~50 years or so, anyways, so I'll leave it. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 13:39:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12878 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12867; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26813; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:38:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id PAA29960; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:39:42 -0500 Message-ID: <19970723153941.38503@right.PCS> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:39:41 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations References: <19970723125924.34666@right.PCS> <199707231945.MAA09748@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199707231945.MAA09748@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Jul 07, 1997 at 12:45:06PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 07, 1997 at 12:45:06PM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > > > On Jul 07, 1997 at 10:24:48AM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > Michael Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > > > There is a far easier solution to this problem, of course: > > > > > Don't &%$!@#* reproduce! > > > > > > > > Woo! Go team! Voluntary ZPG! > > > > > > who will volunteer for ZPG....the best educated, the most > > > caring members of society or least? would you want to live > > > in a society that results from X generations of the best > > > educated and most caring members of society practicing > > > ZPG while the rest of society did not...not for me, thank you. > > > > An interesting statistic is that the most educated members of the population > > have, as a group, less than 2 children, and thus do not contribute to the > > population growth. Less educated members tend to have larger families and > > contribute more to the population growth. > > WARNING: no solid data. > > seems to me that this is a recent change. effective, tolerable > contraception is relatively recent, before that everyone had > a lot of children, and many died trying. (js bach, 25 kids?) > > the better educated may have had a higher precentage of their > children survive. Perhaps. I'd have to dig up the research paper where I got the statistics from and see what years the survey it was for. However, if I recall correctly, part of it was because the educated person was more aware of the costs of raising a child; eg: college education, maintaining a certain living standard, time pressures in being able to provide quality care, and so on. They then made an informed (pragmatic?) decision about their reproduction habits. To the poor, on the other hand, these pressures are not equal; with the weird welfare system that the USA has, a mother on welfare gets more money from the gov't for having more children. Also, as in 3rd world countries, the larger the family is, the more people who can help or bring in income. There, reproduction is not so much a matter of choice as a matter of survival. Bleah. I really should stop reading my wife's research material. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 13:47:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13332 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1537.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13321; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA17768; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:45:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Nate Williams cc: ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707231851.MAA14333@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > I disagree. I live in Montana, where we have one of the lowest > income/family in the nation. And, due to it's 'ruralness' we haven't > kept up with the 'standard' with two working parents, so most two-parent > families leave one of them at home *in spite* of their low-income. This > is mostly due to what's acceptable from being a parent, and what's not > in rural America. There is a certain minimum that is acceptable. I still think that for many they would be below that minimum if only one parent was working. > It's all a matter of what's important. Is having a car that < 3 years > old, sending your kids to private schools, having nice furniture, or > children that spend time with their parents more important? It's all a > matter of perspective. Um. Having both parents working does not guarantee one that one will have these things at all, unfortunately. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 13:49:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13450 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13325; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:47:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707232047.NAA13325@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jamie@itribe.net, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Jul 23, 97 04:23:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > #1) They are FULLY respected as people, regardless of their > social/family position relative to the parent. you gotta listen to your kids if you expect them to listen to you ;) nuture them, like little seedlings that grow into strong trees. (forgive me is was once a orchardman) > > This is necessary to develop a good relationship with the children. > I believe that jmb's argument that the purpose of children is to > give "credit to their family" works counter to this. Because I > discredited jmb's ``goal in raising children'', I had to offer my > own substitute. It is #2. For the many who cannot abide by this, I > even mentioned yet another possibility. "credit to their family" means, to me at least, that other people are favorably impressed by their honesty and integrity and humaneness. someone that other might use as a role model. > > #2) The most important decision they make is to give themselves to > God. > > These two do not conflict. The idea with #1 is that we do not > discard the children (their opinions, ideas, etc) as somehow being > of less value than ours. > > I could also go on to explain that despite #2, a certain equality > exists between God and man, but that goes clearly into the area of > religion, and besides, opinion on that changes every ~50 years or > so, anyways, so I'll leave it. best to leave it. some religions have beliefs/practices that are incompatible with other religions.....we dont need that blood shed here. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 13:52:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13648 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13642; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15194; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:52:14 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:52:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707232052.OAA15194@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: ac199@hwcn.org Cc: Nate Williams , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: References: <199707231851.MAA14333@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I disagree. I live in Montana, where we have one of the lowest > > income/family in the nation. And, due to it's 'ruralness' we haven't > > kept up with the 'standard' with two working parents, so most two-parent > > families leave one of them at home *in spite* of their low-income. This > > is mostly due to what's acceptable from being a parent, and what's not > > in rural America. > > There is a certain minimum that is acceptable. I still think that > for many they would be below that minimum if only one parent was > working. What is that minimum? 8K/year? I know a family of 5 (mom, pop, and 3 kids all under 12 who live on that now.) > > It's all a matter of what's important. Is having a car that < 3 years > > old, sending your kids to private schools, having nice furniture, or > > children that spend time with their parents more important? It's all a > > matter of perspective. > > Um. Having both parents working does not guarantee one that one > will have these things at all, unfortunately. True, but it makes no sense to have both work if you aren't getting ahead of the game. Buy the time you pay medical and day care costs because neither parent stays home (they *are* unfortunately related), even after taxes it's should hopefully make things better, not worse. Someone did a study in the Bay Area, and if the parent was making less than $18K/yr., it was a wash. If one parent can make over $18K/yr. in Montana you'd be doing better than the average Joe. :) :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 14:18:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15009 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1537.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15000; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17814; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:17:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Nate Williams cc: ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707232052.OAA15194@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > I disagree. I live in Montana, where we have one of the lowest > > > income/family in the nation. And, due to it's 'ruralness' we haven't > > > kept up with the 'standard' with two working parents, so most two-parent > > > families leave one of them at home *in spite* of their low-income. This > > > is mostly due to what's acceptable from being a parent, and what's not > > > in rural America. > > > > There is a certain minimum that is acceptable. I still think that > > for many they would be below that minimum if only one parent was > > working. > > What is that minimum? 8K/year? I know a family of 5 (mom, pop, and 3 > kids all under 12 who live on that now.) Meeting this minimum means more than just "living". You know I can't define this minimum, but somewhere between having nothing and having everything lies an acceptable minimum. I think that rather than trying to put this "minimum" in physical terms, it might be best to use psychological ones. Is it when money starts ordering your life? I suppose what you're trying to argue is that it's possible to put a monetary value on the value of one parent staying home. I guess I can live with that. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 14:23:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15412 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15399; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA15376; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:23:34 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:23:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707232123.PAA15376@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: ac199@hwcn.org Cc: Nate Williams , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: References: <199707232052.OAA15194@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > I disagree. I live in Montana, where we have one of the lowest > > > > income/family in the nation. And, due to it's 'ruralness' we haven't > > > > kept up with the 'standard' with two working parents, so most two-parent > > > > families leave one of them at home *in spite* of their low-income. This > > > > is mostly due to what's acceptable from being a parent, and what's not > > > > in rural America. > > > > > > There is a certain minimum that is acceptable. I still think that > > > for many they would be below that minimum if only one parent was > > > working. > > > > What is that minimum? 8K/year? I know a family of 5 (mom, pop, and 3 > > kids all under 12 who live on that now.) > > I think that rather than trying to put this "minimum" in physical > terms, it might be best to use psychological ones. Is it when money > starts ordering your life? Then *most* American's don't have the minimum, since money is the whole point of this, isn't it? When two people feel they 'have' to work, then money is ordering your life. My arguement is that you can justify needing a second job if you make less than $150K/family a year just as easily as you can for a $15K/family. > I suppose what you're trying to argue is that it's possible to put a > monetary value on the value of one parent staying home. I guess I > can live with that. Sort of. I'm saying that there are monetary advantages to having one parent stay at home, and that most folks don't even consider them due to short-sightedness and/or peer pressure. Staying home with the kids isn't near as acceptable as it used to be. Too often at-home parent's hear: *sarcasm on* "Oh, you don't work, you stay home with the kids." *sarcasm off* Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 14:31:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16077 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16067 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA08517 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:31:10 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA07211 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:30:54 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.6/keltia-uucp-2.9) id WAA14082; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:38:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970723223817.03746@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:38:17 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? References: <199707231358.IAA32328@fly.HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199707231358.IAA32328@fly.HiWAAY.net>; from David Kelly on Wed, Jul 23, 1997 at 08:58:49AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3481 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to David Kelly: > and every incoming message. Slocal works. I sorta understand what I > did to make it work. And one day will look into procmail and see if > *this* time I can understand it. Procmail is not that hard to understand, especially for Majordomo-managed lists. For BSD lists, I use # -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- # The FreeBSD lists # -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- # ADMP: Majordomo@freefall.freebsd.org # LIST: @freebsd.org or freebsd-@freebsd.org # :0: * ^Sender:.*owner-(freebsd-|)security.* freebsd/security [[ repeat for each list ]] You can add :0: * ^TO(freebsd-|)security@ freebsd/security to catch Cc: to your own articles. To catch duplicates (cross-posts and so on) use AT THE BEGINNING of .procmailrc: ############## Weed out duplicate messages sent to many mailing-lists ###### :0 Wh: msgid.lock | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #23: Sun Jul 20 18:10:34 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 14:55:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17412 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1537.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17156; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17877; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:48:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: ac199@hwcn.org, jamie@itribe.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707232047.NAA13325@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > "credit to their family" means, to me at least, that > other people are favorably impressed by their honesty > and integrity and humaneness. someone that other might > use as a role model. I prefer the phrase that you used in a private email, "so that they look good" [to [a `just'] society]. It's the term "credit to their family" which conjures-up, in my mind, at least, images of parents who are more concerned about looking like good parents than being good parents. These are a dangerous type of parents. > best to leave it. some religions have beliefs/practices that > are incompatible with other religions.....we dont need that > blood shed here. Well, it might've gotten off-topic. :) Religion does relate to raising children in at least so much as choosing the "right thing" (eg. "raise them so that they look good to society"). -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 15:09:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18283 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18166; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id SAA22221; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:05:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:05:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199707232205.SAA22221@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-reply-to: <33D66F3C.604C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> (message from Pedro Giffuni on Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:53:16 -0700) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: The climate of Bombay is such that its inhabitants have to live elsewhere. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:53:16 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia The news is that population has it's own means of controlling itself, Food and production also grows, people turn gay, and JIC someone will plant a bomb in mall or start a little war some place. Actually, my understanding is that in the grand scheme of things, the World Wars had little overall effect on the population of the world, especially considering that we had the Baby Boom afterwards which undid the effect of the war if it did have any effect. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 16:17:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22084 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21932; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:15:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707232315.QAA21932@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, jamie@itribe.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Jul 23, 97 05:48:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > "credit to their family" means, to me at least, that > > other people are favorably impressed by their honesty > > and integrity and humaneness. someone that other might > > use as a role model. > > I prefer the phrase that you used in a private email, "so that they sorry, meant to send that to the list as well. > look good" [to [a `just'] society]. It's the term "credit to their > family" which conjures-up, in my mind, at least, images of parents > who are more concerned about looking like good parents than being > good parents. These are a dangerous type of parents. yes, the connotations are there. i need to be more careful. > > > > best to leave it. some religions have beliefs/practices that > > are incompatible with other religions.....we dont need that > > blood shed here. > > Well, it might've gotten off-topic. :) Religion does relate to > raising children in at least so much as choosing the "right thing" > (eg. "raise them so that they look good to society"). agreed. i would like to stop short of trying to characterize what is just...just look athe mess that john rawls got himself into despite his harvard professorship. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 16:20:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22252 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22096; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:17:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707232317.QAA22096@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, pechter@lakewood.com, softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707232205.SAA22221@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at Jul 23, 97 06:05:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:53:16 -0700 > From: Pedro Giffuni > Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia > > The news is that population has it's own means of controlling itself, > Food and production also grows, people turn gay, and JIC someone will > plant a bomb in mall or start a little war some place. > > Actually, my understanding is that in the grand scheme of things, > the World Wars had little overall effect on the population of the > world, especially considering that we had the Baby Boom afterwards > which undid the effect of the war if it did have any effect. that's what i understand as well. its gotta get a lot worse before those mechanisms kick in and we start eating other. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 16:38:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23125 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1570.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23039; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6564.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18130; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:32:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, pechter@lakewood.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707232205.SAA22221@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > Actually, my understanding is that in the grand scheme of things, > the World Wars had little overall effect on the population of the > world, especially considering that we had the Baby Boom afterwards > which undid the effect of the war if it did have any effect. Abortion kills off a lot of people. :-) :-) :-) (here, one more, just to make sure I get the point across) :-) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 16:42:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23391 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23314; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:40:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707232340.QAA23314@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Cc: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, pechter@lakewood.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Jul 23, 97 07:32:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > > Actually, my understanding is that in the grand scheme of things, > > the World Wars had little overall effect on the population of the > > world, especially considering that we had the Baby Boom afterwards > > which undid the effect of the war if it did have any effect. > > Abortion kills off a lot of people. :-) :-) :-) > > (here, one more, just to make sure I get the point across) > > :-) child-rearing, economics, religion, abortion.... any other buttons people want to push before we let this thread die its unnatural death? ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 18:34:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28848 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA28838; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Quisqueya (slip166-72-219-131.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.131]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA14312; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707240133.VAA14312@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 21:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:19:41 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > the only two possilbilities are owner-freebsd- and > owner- Should we send you emails that are not filtered by any of these two. :-) On second thought those two strings will not do what I want. I want messages sent "to me" to go somewhere separate from the messages sent "to the list". I have never had a problem filtering the list, but if I used the strings you suggest I would get dups in each folder I have for each list. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 19:00:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA29911 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA29761 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem20.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16676; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:50:30 -0400 Message-Id: <33D6D130.410E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:51:12 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: ac199@hwcn.org, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, pechter@lakewood.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations References: <199707232340.QAA23314@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > ... > > child-rearing, economics, religion, abortion.... > > any other buttons people want to push before we let this > thread die its unnatural death? ;) USA can always nuke the world to keep population within bounds...Did we mention cats ? OK let's close it here :-) Pedro. > jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 23 21:14:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06406 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06373 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA06669; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:13:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:13:49 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Francisco Reyes cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? In-Reply-To: <199707240133.VAA14312@federation.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:19:41 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > the only two possilbilities are owner-freebsd- and > > owner- > > Should we send you emails that are not filtered by any of these two. > :-) > > On second thought those two strings will not do what I want. I want > messages sent "to me" to go somewhere separate from the messages sent > "to the list". I have never had a problem filtering the list, but if I > used the strings you suggest I would get dups in each folder I have for > each list. In my procmail filter, the first thing that happens is that dups are zapped. This is done by keeping a cache of message-id's. # Weed out duplicate messages :0 Wh: msgid.lock | formail -D 8192 msgid.cache Then for the freebsd lists, I have a two level filter rule. Anything from an "owner" at freebsd.org gets in the first level and the second level splits things up appropriately. I've never had any problems with things landing in the wrong places. # Messages from any of the freebsd mailing lists... :0 * ^Sender:.*owner.*@.*freebsd.org$ { :0 * ^Sender:.*www www :0 * ^Sender:.*bugs bugs :0 * ^Sender:.*doc doc :0 * ^Sender:.*CVS-committers cvs :0 * ^Sender:.*questions questions :0 bsd } -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 03:51:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22152 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (root@labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22138 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (davidn@local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00697; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:49:12 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199707241049.UAA00697@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Kenneth J. Monville" cc: Francisco Reyes , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:50:00 EST." <19970723075000.00233@wasted.bandwidth.org> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:49:12 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 06:26:20PM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Could anyone share with me what strings they use to filter their > > FreeBSD lists. > > I have tried a few things, but every now an then messages go > > unfiltered.. > > I use procmail to filter my mail, this is an example entry: > :0: > * ^From.owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org > IN.chat > > It is using the first line in the header to filter the mail based on sender. Yep, I've found that ^From is the most reliable method of filtering with procmail, but it assumes that this line is preserved right into the mailbox (ie. the envelope arrives intact). This works with the bulk of mailing list software, and even allows cleanly distinguishing between private replies and replies to the list. Pop users, for example, won't have this luxury (fetchmail, popclient or similar), where the From_ line is not transmitted, but for local re-delivery is derived via a heuristic which uses other headers and may not be exactly right. Regards, david -- David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 04:02:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA22518 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (root@labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA22505 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (davidn@local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00734; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:02:20 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199707241102.VAA00734@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Ollivier Robert cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:38:17 +0200." <19970723223817.03746@keltia.freenix.fr> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:02:20 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > According to David Kelly: > > and every incoming message. Slocal works. I sorta understand what I > > did to make it work. And one day will look into procmail and see if > > *this* time I can understand it. > > Procmail is not that hard to understand, especially for Majordomo-managed > lists. > > For BSD lists, I use ~ > :0: > * ^Sender:.*owner-(freebsd-|)security.* > freebsd/security The mh variant of that is: MHLIB=/usr/local/lib/mh . . :0 * ^From owner-(freebsd-|)security.* |$MHLIB/rcvstore +freebsd/security Note the missing ':' after the '0', which tells procmail not to attempt to lock (not needed in this case - mh handles it's own locking where it needs to do so). Procmail can also be fiddled to directly into mh folders, but I found that some of mh's metadata isn't updated correctly and 'new' mail isn't marked as new. I looked at slocal when I converted to mh, but it seemed too limited for what I was doing, so I stuck with procmail which has worked fine for me for several years now. Oh, and I have exmh set up for background flist, not inc, since procmail handles my inbox as well. > ############## Weed out duplicate messages sent to many mailing-lists ###### > > :0 Wh: msgid.lock > | formail -D 32768 msgid.cache Yep, this is a good idea too. It's surprising just how much this catches. Personally I use only 16k, which seems to work for me, but it is probably a function of just how much mail you receive. :) Regard, David -- David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 05:43:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA25893 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA25774; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707241239.IAA20118@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:39:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: ac199@hwcn.org, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jkh@time.cdrom.com, pechter@lakewood.com, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199707232340.QAA23314@hub.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > > On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > > > > Actually, my understanding is that in the grand scheme of things, > > > the World Wars had little overall effect on the population of the > > > world, especially considering that we had the Baby Boom afterwards > > > which undid the effect of the war if it did have any effect. > > > > Abortion kills off a lot of people. :-) :-) :-) > > > > (here, one more, just to make sure I get the point across) > > > > :-) > > child-rearing, economics, religion, abortion.... > > any other buttons people want to push before we let this > thread die its unnatural death? ;) > jmb > Sure...let's talk about fs design...that always seems to get people upset as well :) Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 07:51:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA02609 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA02597 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19329; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:50:42 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:50:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707241450.IAA19329@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: David Nugent Cc: "Kenneth J. Monville" , Francisco Reyes , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? In-Reply-To: <199707241049.UAA00697@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> References: <19970723075000.00233@wasted.bandwidth.org> <199707241049.UAA00697@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yep, I've found that ^From is the most reliable method of filtering > with procmail, but it assumes that this line is preserved right into > the mailbox (ie. the envelope arrives intact). This works with the > bulk of mailing list software, and even allows cleanly distinguishing > between private replies and replies to the list. > > Pop users, for example, won't have this luxury (fetchmail, popclient > or similar) Actually, I'm using fetchmail, but my .fetchmailrc has this: # Don't rewrite the mail headers (else all email appears to be from me) norewrite and I use From lines w/out problems. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 08:08:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA03769 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA03762 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA09241 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:07:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:07:05 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: bloated operating systems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This microsoft quote from an infoworld article caught my eye: "We have no intention of shipping another bloated OS and shoving it down the throats of our users," Maritz said regarding the concept of delivering JFCs on top of the Windows operating system. So, microsoft has decided to change their ways? (see http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?970724.ejava.htm for the rest of the article.) -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 08:54:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06461 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06453 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA17698 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:53:24 -0700 (PDT) X-SMTP: hello devnull from jflists@pop.calweb.com server @devnull.calweb.com ip 207.173.135.51 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970724085100.00a0fa10@pop.calweb.com> Warning: Unsolicited Commercial Email (UCE) will be returned to send in bulk X-Sender: jflists@pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:51:00 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "jfesler@calweb.com" Subject: Re: What string to filter? Easy! In-Reply-To: <199707241102.VAA00734@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm not sure why people are making this harder than it really is :-). The following will sort based on which list it came from, not which list the person CC'd. This means that if you get 3 copies, one will make each folder. You *could* add dupe checking, but I don't bother, since "select all, delete" after scanning the subjects works really well for me. Btw, this will also catch the various incarnations of owner- names as well as the freebsd.org, freebsd.com, freefall.freebsd.org, etc.. Procmail rules: :0 Sender:.*chat@free $MAIL/freebsd/chat :0 Sender:.*security@free $MAIL/freebsd/security [etc] I'll admit: I'm using Eudora. It's even easier. Filter on Sender contacts questions@free, move to .. :-) -- Jason Fesler jfesler@calweb.com 'whois jf319' | When the chips are down Admin, CalWeb Internet Services www.calweb.com | The buffalo's empty Junk email returned in bulk; 1 cc to your postmaster | Junk mail probs? http://www.gigo.com/junkmail.htm | :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 13:13:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21565 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21554 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08722; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:09:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA00445; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:27:50 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: John Fieber cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bloated operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, John Fieber wrote: : "We have no intention of shipping another bloated OS and shoving : it down the throats of our users," Maritz said regarding the concept : of delivering JFCs on top of the Windows operating system. : : So, microsoft has decided to change their ways? No, it just means that they've decided to focus on shipping one really bloated OS. :-) K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 13:35:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22600 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (root@labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22592 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (davidn@local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA00302; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:34:28 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199707242034.GAA00302@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:50:42 CST." <199707241450.IAA19329@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:34:28 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Pop users, for example, won't have this luxury (fetchmail, popclient > > or similar) > > Actually, I'm using fetchmail, but my .fetchmailrc has this: > # Don't rewrite the mail headers (else all email appears to be from me) > norewrite > > and I use From lines w/out problems. Then you're fortunate to be getting reliable Return-Path: headers. :-) Regards, David -- David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 13:36:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22706 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22698 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id NAA17079; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:35:48 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id QAA27206; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:35:46 -0400 Received: from compound.east.sun.com by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA04643; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:35:45 -0400 Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.east.sun.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA03874; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:35:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:35:46 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Message-Id: <199707242035.PAA03874@compound.east.sun.com> From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: gpalmer@orion.webspan.net Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing References: <199707241601.LAA03086@compound.east.sun.com> <16488.869774356@orion.webspan.net> X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoth Gary Palmer on Thu, 24 July: : Stop cyberpromo, nancynet, iemmc, etc from sending out so many CFC's : then. Then ISPs wont have to take action to defend their systems. So far, the only *effective* defense I have seen proposed is killing mail from well-specified originators. I really don't object to the MAIL FROM: filtering, as described on 'current' recently, but I do question its effectiveness. Improving the quality and general availability of the originator filters would be a positive benefit. But any originator filter than drops even one non-spam mail message is *broken*. Email is *important*. (That's *why* spam is so evil.) (Aside: When you set reply-to you might like to adjust the addressing of the former venue to a BCC so that respondents don't naturally respond to both lists.) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 14:48:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26316 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (xtal192.xtalwind.net [205.245.61.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26307 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03142; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:49:17 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: John Fieber cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bloated operating systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, John Fieber wrote: > This microsoft quote from an infoworld article caught my eye: > > "We have no intention of shipping another bloated OS and shoving > it down the throats of our users," Maritz said regarding the concept > of delivering JFCs on top of the Windows operating system. > > So, microsoft has decided to change their ways? Probably not. I parse that to mean, "We will ship and shove down our users throats another bloated OS that does not include JFCs.". -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 15:12:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA27588 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27566 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA29519; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:15:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199707242215.AAA29519@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: bloated operating systems In-Reply-To: from jack at "Jul 24, 97 05:49:17 pm" To: jack@diamond.xtalwind.net (jack) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:15:58 +0200 (CEST) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to jack: > On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, John Fieber wrote: > > > This microsoft quote from an infoworld article caught my eye: > > > > "We have no intention of shipping another bloated OS and shoving > > it down the throats of our users," Maritz said regarding the concept > > of delivering JFCs on top of the Windows operating system. > > > > So, microsoft has decided to change their ways? > > Probably not. I parse that to mean, "We will ship and shove down our > users throats another bloated OS that does not include JFCs.". Probably more like "We will ship and shove down our users throats another bloated OS which includes for example AFCs, but not JFCs, because that would promote something that doesn't force the user to stay with windows." /Mikael From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 15:24:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28320 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28303 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (daemon@cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.101]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08013; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:23:53 GMT Received: from auk.fsl.noaa.gov by cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov with SMTP (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA190303032; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:23:52 -0600 Message-Id: <33D7D5F8.55BE@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:23:52 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/725) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mikael Karpberg Cc: jack , jfieber@indiana.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bloated operating systems References: <199707242215.AAA29519@ocean.campus.luth.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Probably more like "We will ship and shove down our users throats another > bloated OS which includes for example AFCs, but not JFCs, because that would > promote something that doesn't force the user to stay with windows." Except that the current pre-release of the AFCs is 100% pure Java, and is supposed to stay that way. I've developed some toy programs with it on HP/UX's 1.1 JDK, and sure enough, they barely work---but it was kinda eerie seeing new-Windows-style widgets on a Unix desktop before the stupid library crashed and burned. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 15:36:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28923 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA28912 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36566; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:33:04 -0500 Message-Id: <33D7F3E4.15A7@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:31:32 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: John Fieber Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bloated operating systems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber wrote: > > This microsoft quote from an infoworld article caught my eye: > > "We have no intention of shipping another bloated OS and shoving > it down the throats of our users," Maritz said regarding the concept > of delivering JFCs on top of the Windows operating system. > ... > -john Translated, this means: "OS2 is just ANOTHER bloated OS because they include Java; to be THE REALLY bloated OS you need ActiveX," Maritz meant to say. Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 16:42:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA02201 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsmarso.dialup.access.net (lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02190 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lsmarso@localhost) by lsmarso.dialup.access.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01659; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970724193852.34750@panix.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:38:52 -0400 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: Pedro Giffuni , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bloated operating systems References: <33D7F3E4.15A7@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <33D7F3E4.15A7@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro Giffuni on Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 05:31:32PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 05:31:32PM -0700, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > John Fieber wrote: > > > > This microsoft quote from an infoworld article caught my eye: > > > > "We have no intention of shipping another bloated OS and shoving > > it down the throats of our users," Maritz said regarding the concept > > of delivering JFCs on top of the Windows operating system. > > > .... > > -john > > Translated, this means: > "OS2 is just ANOTHER bloated OS because they include Java; to be THE > REALLY bloated OS you need ActiveX," Maritz meant to say. > > Pedro. OS/2? From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 17:59:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05736 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05709 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA10590; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:59:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:59:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Tony Kimball cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing In-Reply-To: <199707242035.PAA03874@compound.east.sun.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Tony Kimball wrote: > So far, the only *effective* defense I have seen proposed is killing > mail from well-specified originators. I really don't object to the > MAIL FROM: filtering, as described on 'current' recently, but I do > question its effectiveness. It might be effective in preventing new small-time operatings from becoming big time operators. A beginner who doesn't own their own domain name and equipment is more likely to hide behind ficticous return addresses. If, by rejecting messages without valid return addresses, we can make such ventures unproductive, I would say progress has been made. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 22:59:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16073 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16067 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA20387; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:28:47 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707250558.PAA20387@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing In-Reply-To: <199707242321.QAA18495@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jul 24, 97 04:21:00 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:28:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > I have to warn you that several mail server products of which I'm > > > aware actualy verify via getpeername/gethostbyaddr (RARP), and > > > will reject your host anyway. > > > > RARP? Or was that just a belch in mid-sentence :-)? > > Reverse Address Resoloution Protocol. When someone connects to me, > I can always geet the IP address they are connecting from. Using > RARP, I can turn the address into a machine name, and compare it > with what you tell me on the "HELO" and "MAIL FROM:" lines. Oh Terry. You've never booted a machine diskless in your life, have you? RARP is reverse-ARP. It's "This is my media address; WTF am I?", rather than "WTF owns this IP address?" Seeing as RARP requests are _broadcast_, I can't exactly see them being used for anything even vaguely approaching what you're talking about. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 23:12:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16593 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foo.primenet.com (ip219.sjc.primenet.com [206.165.96.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16584 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA00554; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707250616.XAA00554@foo.primenet.com> To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat References: <199707241601.LAA03086@compound.east.sun.com> <199707242035.PAA03874@compound.east.sun.com> From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" Cc: gpalmer@orion.webspan.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In localhost.freebsd.chat you write: >Quoth Gary Palmer on Thu, 24 July: >So far, the only *effective* defense I have seen proposed is killing >mail from well-specified originators. I really don't object to the >MAIL FROM: filtering, as described on 'current' recently, but I do >question its effectiveness. Improving the quality and general >availability of the originator filters would be a positive benefit. >But any originator filter than drops even one non-spam mail message >is *broken*. Email is *important*. (That's *why* spam is so evil.) One simple defense which will *generally* corral unsolicited mass email is to use a procmail filter which sets aside (*don't bounce or trash*) mail which does not have your email address on the From:, Cc:, etc. lines, and tosses it in your least favorite mailbox. Use rules with higher precedence to catch all of that mailing list mail and put it somewhere appropriate. This will catch mail from most mailing lists (so don't bounce it, in case the headers suddenly change!), as well as Bcc:'ed mail, but it also catches >90% of the unsolicited mass email I get. If you check this and clean it out once every few days, it may give you a feeling of control (since you visit the spam when you feel like it, instead of it visiting you when it feels like it). You'll also notice that these messages tend to be easy to spot just from subject lines. -- bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 24 23:37:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA17475 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17470 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id CAA18844; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id CAA10948; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:36:59 -0400 (EDT) To: "Bryan K. Ogawa" cc: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:16:43 PDT." <199707250616.XAA00554@foo.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:36:58 -0400 Message-ID: <10946.869812618@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Bryan K. Ogawa" wrote in message ID <199707250616.XAA00554@foo.primenet.com>: > In localhost.freebsd.chat you write: > >Quoth Gary Palmer on Thu, 24 July: > >So far, the only *effective* defense I have seen proposed is killing [SNIP] Please be careful with your quoting/attribuation. I didn't say that. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 03:08:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA25636 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 03:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA25631 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 03:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01117; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:08:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:08:33 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: Pedro Giffuni cc: John Fieber , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bloated operating systems In-Reply-To: <33D7F3E4.15A7@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > John Fieber wrote: > > > > This microsoft quote from an infoworld article caught my eye: > > > > "We have no intention of shipping another bloated OS and shoving > > it down the throats of our users," Maritz said regarding the concept > > of delivering JFCs on top of the Windows operating system. > > Translated, this means: > "OS2 is just ANOTHER bloated OS because they include Java; to be THE > REALLY bloated OS you need ActiveX," Maritz meant to say. That's okay then because I thought that Maritz was originally saying: "I've had enough of working for Microsoft and I'm going to make stupid comments implying our previous operating systems were bloated and didn't work properly and we shoved it down peoples throats... Yes, this should get me fired." However if he was just slagging off OS/2 in a unique way then perhaps he's up for a promotion. Well, just for a change I think I follow something about Microsoft now! -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 08:02:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06892 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA06871; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id IAA07710; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:02:16 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id LAA24082; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:02:16 -0400 Received: from compound.east.sun.com by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA24175; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:02:15 -0400 Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.east.sun.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA04543; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:02:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:02:14 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Message-Id: <199707251502.KAA04543@compound.east.sun.com> From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: imp@rover.village.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing References: <199707241601.LAA03086@compound.east.sun.com> <199707241422.HAA00957@hub.freebsd.org> X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoth Warner Losh on Fri, 25 July: : Excuse me? I've *NEVER* seen that statisic in the 10 years that I've : been on the net. Do you have some study that would back up this : claim? At best I think that many machines might not have globally : valid names, but they send their mail messages using globally valid : names. Many large companies will have hundreds of internal machines, : but they all go through one smart host that handles all the mail for : email on this list and others would not have a valid reply address, : which is only the case in << 1% of the mail I reply to. [Note: Moving to chat...] Um, I would point out that one wouldn't be on an Internet mailing list unless one were on the Internet. Most computers have nothing to do with the Internet. There are a large number of email facilities on mvs, vm, vines, netware, fidonet, uucp, appletalk, or what-have-you. My 'majority' figure may become a 'minority' in the not-to-distant future, but the I'm *guessing* that the majority of email-capable systems are still not Internetworked. Of course this depends on your definition of Internetworked, and of email-capable. I'm trying to use colloquial meanings here. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 08:17:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07733 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA07725 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wrm7I-0000cE-00; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:17:16 -0600 To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:02:14 CDT." <199707251502.KAA04543@compound.east.sun.com> References: <199707251502.KAA04543@compound.east.sun.com> <199707241601.LAA03086@compound.east.sun.com> <199707241422.HAA00957@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:17:16 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199707251502.KAA04543@compound.east.sun.com> Tony Kimball writes: : Um, I would point out that one wouldn't be on an Internet mailing list : unless one were on the Internet. Most computers have nothing to do : with the Internet. There are a large number of email facilities on : mvs, vm, vines, netware, fidonet, uucp, appletalk, or what-have-you. : My 'majority' figure may become a 'minority' in the not-to-distant : future, but the I'm *guessing* that the majority of email-capable : systems are still not Internetworked. Of course this depends on your : definition of Internetworked, and of email-capable. I'm trying to use : colloquial meanings here. The internet has 10M+ hosts on it (as measured by a sampling of the DNS space), as of the last census (if memory serves). I doubt that all the other systems put together that can do email have this many hosts. Also, fidonet and uucp are on the internet[*]. fidonet.org has a gateway function, as does many uucp sites (and bitnet, and decnet, etc, etc). With the possible exception of netware, nothing else even comes remotely close to the size of the internet. And with netware, many installations are gatewayed to the internet. Warner [*] On the internet here means "I can send email to it" rather than "I can send IP packets to it." The south pole is on the net by the former definition, but rarely by the latter. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 08:58:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA09698 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA09692 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id IAA21478; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:58:45 -0700 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:58:45 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199707251558.IAA21478@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <199707250616.XAA00554.kithrup.freebsd.chat@foo.primenet.com> References: <199707241601.LAA03086@compound.east.sun.com> <199707242035.PAA03874@compound.east.sun.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199707250616.XAA00554.kithrup.freebsd.chat@foo.primenet.com> you write: >One simple defense which will *generally* corral unsolicited mass >email is to use a procmail filter which sets aside (*don't bounce or >trash*) mail which does not have your email address on the From:, Cc:, >etc. lines, and tosses it in your least favorite mailbox. As I've said before, I use route filters. I also use procmail (anything which passes through *.it.earthlink.net gets bounced, and the only way I know about it is if earthlink or uunet decide to reply. Well, their automated reply, which I should probably start junking as well). My current route filter list is: kithrup 1% netstat -rn | grep UGR 38.216.110 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 204.119.177 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 4 lo0 - - 204.137.222 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 204.250.46 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 24 lo0 - - 205.137.220 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 205.164.68 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 12 lo0 - - 205.199.2 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 205.199.4 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 19 lo0 - - 205.199.212 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 32 lo0 - - 205.254.164 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 205.254.165 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 205.254.166 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 205.254.167 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 20 lo0 - - 206.85.20 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 206.139.182 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 207.124.160 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 207.124.161 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 207.211.141 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 208.15.229 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 208.144.211 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 208.197.13 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 208.216.244 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - 209.14.30 127.0.0.1 UGR 0 0 lo0 - - Most of those are AGIS customers. A couple are pre-emptive -- I haven't necessarily gotten anythign from them, but other people have, or they were registered to a known spammer, so I dropped 'em. I maintain mine manually. This is a pain. I *highly* recommend Paul Vixie's BGP feed, which is free, and he keeps it up to date with pointers from other people. I believe gated can talk eBGP, so you can run that on a FreeBSD box. Since I started doing this, the amount of email spam I've gotten has risen -- but less so than it would otherwise have done. (I know people who don't have any filters, and sometimes I'm amazed they can get anything done.) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 09:00:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09783 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09772; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.6/(97/05/21 3.30)) id LAA29618; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:59:29 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from default (cnc143060.concentric.net [206.173.207.60]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.6) id LAA10363; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33D8DB7A.44FDA922@resumes-by-duke.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:59:40 -0800 From: ML Duke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <8173.869682165@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------198DBD10DFA605896A984211" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --------------198DBD10DFA605896A984211 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > p.s. and no i am not advocating any compulsory measures. > > sheesh! > > I am. Retroactively. :-) > > Jordan Just can't help myself anymore--must reply. Jordan: When you advocate compulsory measures, you are a display of the common belief that others should be forced to do what you want at the point of a gun. ML Duke --------------198DBD10DFA605896A984211 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
> p.s.  and no i am not advocating any compulsory measures.
>       sheesh!

I am.  Retroactively.  :-)

                                Jordan

Just can't help myself anymore--must reply.

Jordan: When you advocate compulsory measures, you are a display of the common belief that others
should be forced to do what you want at the point of a gun.

ML Duke
   --------------198DBD10DFA605896A984211-- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 10:14:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA13624 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexus.astro.psu.edu (nexus.astro.psu.edu [128.118.147.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA13615; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mstar.astro.psu.edu by nexus.astro.psu.edu (4.1/Nexus-1.3) id AA12601; Fri, 25 Jul 97 13:12:56 EDT Received: by mstar.astro.psu.edu (SMI-8.6/Client-1.3) id NAA09670; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:12:49 -0400 Message-Id: <19970725131248.04579@astro.psu.edu> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:12:48 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: ML Duke Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations Reply-To: Matthew Hunt References: <8173.869682165@time.cdrom.com> <33D8DB7A.44FDA922@resumes-by-duke.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <33D8DB7A.44FDA922@resumes-by-duke.com>; from ML Duke on Fri, Jul 25, 1997 at 08:59:40AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jul 25, 1997 at 08:59:40AM -0800, ML Duke wrote: > > I am. Retroactively. :-) > Just can't help myself anymore--must reply. Perhaps your time would be better spent pursuing "Humor Recognition". > Jordan: When you advocate compulsory measures, you are a display of > the common belief that others should be forced to do what you want > at the point of a gun. Not necessarily. He may prefer gas chambers, or lethal injection. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 11:54:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA18206 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.buffalostate.edu (www.buffalostate.edu [136.183.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18193 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hummel@localhost) by www.buffalostate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA11227 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:54:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:54:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dave H." To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD t-shirts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Walnut Creek CDROM has discontinued the FreeBSD t-shirt. Does anyone else make or plan to make the t-shirts? From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 12:13:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19183 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19172; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA18647; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:13:15 -0700 (PDT) To: ML Duke cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:59:40 -0800." <33D8DB7A.44FDA922@resumes-by-duke.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:13:15 -0700 Message-ID: <18644.869857995@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan: When you advocate compulsory measures, you are a display of > the common belief that others should be forced to do what you want > at the point of a gun. Yeah? What's your point? :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 13:27:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22873 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22868 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA20020; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:22:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707252022.NAA20020@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:22:50 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707250558.PAA20387@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jul 25, 97 03:28:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > I have to warn you that several mail server products of which I'm > > > > aware actualy verify via getpeername/gethostbyaddr (RARP), and > > > > will reject your host anyway. > > > > > > RARP? Or was that just a belch in mid-sentence :-)? > > > > Reverse Address Resoloution Protocol. When someone connects to me, > > I can always geet the IP address they are connecting from. Using > > RARP, I can turn the address into a machine name, and compare it > > with what you tell me on the "HELO" and "MAIL FROM:" lines. > > Oh Terry. You've never booted a machine diskless in your life, have you? > > RARP is reverse-ARP. It's "This is my media address; WTF am I?", rather > than "WTF owns this IP address?" > > Seeing as RARP requests are _broadcast_, I can't exactly see them > being used for anything even vaguely approaching what you're talking > about. I've been brain frating between "reverse address lookup" and "reverse address resoloution". Sorry. The algorithmic content for SPAM filtering remains the same, with this correction. Sorry for the duration of the brain-fart -- once I had the "reverse address" part of the acronym wired, I didn't bother to keep the rest of it in short term memory. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 16:31:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA01556 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01546 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slip129-37-113-74.pa.us.ibm.net (slip129-37-113-74.pa.us.ibm.net [129.37.113.74]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA02449 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:31:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707252331.TAA02449@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSD Chat List" Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 19:47:12 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.9 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Web interface to list Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Recently I was at Borland's site and notice they have a WEB front end for mailint list subscription/unsubscription. This would be great for the FreeBSD mailing lists (no more "unsubscribe" messages sent to the list instead of the server). Any takers? :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 18:52:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08174 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08138 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00814; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707260151.SAA00814@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Francisco Reyes" cc: "FreeBSD Chat List" Subject: Re: Web interface to list In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:47:12." <199707252331.TAA02449@federation.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:51:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Actually, is anyone archiving the lists with a web interface? Tnks, Amancio >From The Desk Of "Francisco Reyes" : > Recently I was at Borland's site and notice they have a WEB front end > for mailint list subscription/unsubscription. This would be great for > the FreeBSD mailing lists (no more "unsubscribe" messages sent to the > list instead of the server). > > Any takers? :-) > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 19:15:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA09235 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA09221 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA02721; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:01:40 -0400 Message-ID: <33D977F7.77DB@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:08:11 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is FreeBSD really a project? (introduction to WISE) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Let me introduce one of my recent findings; "The Web-Integrated Software metrics Environment (WISE) is the first WWW-based project management and metrics system available on the WWW. WISE is a WWW-based tool that provides a framework for managing software development projects across the Web. Programmers and managers can log issue reports, track the status of issues, and view project metrics using standard WWW browsers. WISE provides a non-intrusive method to coordinate project activities and allow software development teams to view their progress and performance." This was the description of a project by NASA freely available here: http://research.ivv.nasa.gov/projects/WISE/ It uses msql and looks awfully good for something like FreeBSD, but there might be limitations: (all IMO) I don't consider FreeBSD a project because, technically speaking, a project has precisely defined it's start and it's ending dates. The initiation of the FreeBSD project evidently existed, but the goals seem very generic, and we don't really want this end. In purely bureaucratic linings, FreeBSD wouldn't be considered a project. This makes me think we would have to do modifications on this software to help in the purpose of enhancing FreeBSD's development (was Jordan suggesting something like this when someone proposed to shoot him? :-) ). Anyway, we should test this... comments, suggestions...flames? Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 20:23:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11249 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA11239; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.6/(97/05/21 3.30)) id XAA21272; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:22:13 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from default (cnc143065.concentric.net [206.173.207.65]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.6) id XAA18114; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33D97B7E.D1648961@resumes-by-duke.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:22:23 -0800 From: ML Duke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <18644.869857995@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Jordan: When you advocate compulsory measures, you are a display of > > the common belief that others should be forced to do what you want > > at the point of a gun. > > Yeah? What's your point? :) > > Jordan I found your response difficult to believe, which is to say it challenged my imagination to actuallypicture someone in my mind who could say it. The point should be self-evident, but I'll try. What is it that you like to do, want to do or enjoy doing that, were one special interest group or another were to manage to have a law passed against it, (the point of the gun) that it would cause you distress? It is compulsory that we do not kill another human being, that we do not violate anothers natural property rights nor interfere in anothers activities as long as that person is not harming another (and acts of mutual consent do not apply here). The above are in keeping with the natural goodness of our natures, not to say that many do not violate their own natures on a regular basis. Those would would pass into law compulsory measures, for example. ML Duke From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 21:16:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA12772 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x22 (ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12766; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by x22 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA00232; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:15:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: ML Duke cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <33D97B7E.D1648961@resumes-by-duke.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, ML Duke wrote: > I found your response difficult to believe, which is to say it > challenged my imagination to actuallypicture someone in my mind > who could say it. The point should be self-evident, but I'll try. I don't believe jkh is the first to suggest such a thing. How serious he was can also be questioned, too. > What is it that you like to do, want to do or enjoy doing that, were one > special interest group or another were to manage to have a law passed > against it, (the point of the gun) that it would cause you distress? Jordan was trying to convince a sufficient majority of the population of the US that they should enact a law preventing the 50% - 1 minority of the US from having children. If Jordan were, by himself, trying to have a law passed against reproduction I would agree with you, however, this is not what he was doing; rather, he was trying to convince a majority of people that they, as a majority, should enact this law. If we were to believe that any person espousing a minority view is not allowed to speak, then this would be, well, ...bad. > It is compulsory that we do not kill another human being, that we > do not violate anothers natural property rights nor interfere in > anothers activities as long as that person is not harming another > (and acts of mutual consent do not apply here). If you and I were to live on a 10x10 metre island, and you were to go and have 15 children, I would probably be tempted to accuse you of violating my natural rights. Or does this not count? Is it that you are not allowed to take rights from me by means of force, threats, etc., but if you do it by having sex, it's ok? (Addendum: this is a single-story island :) > The above are in keeping with the natural goodness of our natures, > not to say that many do not violate their own natures on a regular > basis. Those would would pass into law compulsory measures, for > example. I absolutely love the term "natural goodness of our nature". I mean, some people just thrive on terms like that! It is natural for people to start killing each other when they are overpopulated. This is natural, and it is good (since it prevents even more deaths due to overpopulation). Therefore, it would seem that your paragraph previous to the above is wrong. I'm not sure how much I should say in response to "natural property rights", either. :) -- Tim "let-the-thread-die" Vanderhoek OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 22:17:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA14687 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14681; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA20800; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:16:32 -0700 (PDT) To: ML Duke cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:22:23 -0800." <33D97B7E.D1648961@resumes-by-duke.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:16:32 -0700 Message-ID: <20796.869894192@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I found your response difficult to believe, which is to say it > challenged my imagination to actuallypicture someone in my mind who > could say it. The point should be self-evident, but I'll try. I think you must have been one of those unfortunates born sarcasm-impaired, but since you've chosen to take me so seriously I guess I'll respond to a few of your points, some of which I find to be almost stunningly naieve. > What is it that you like to do, want to do or enjoy doing that, were one > special interest group or another were to manage to have a law passed > against it, (the point of the gun) that it would cause you distress? Just about everything, but then I see law not as a some benign force, set about purely and altruistically by others for our own good, but rather as the feudal contract between the serf and his current overlord. Oh, we've santized and homogenized the whole process of enforcing a power structure to the point where some deluded fools actually think they control the process, but it's not about that at all. Mankind is a wolfpack society, and there's always a hierarchy of dominance and submission involved. So though my remarks about forcing people around at gunpoint were sarcastic, they're hardly something which I have deep moral feelings about. There will always be someone out there who will try to stick a gun to my head if they think it will further their aims and, should the situation truly warrant it, it's not a tactic I'd eschew myself. What defines us as human beings is our judgement about what does and does not warrant the use of that kind of force, not some arbitrary moral line drawn in the sand which you try to get everyone in society to stand only on one side of (usually, and oh-so-conveniently, allowing the line-drawer the sole privilege of occupying either side at will). > The above are in keeping with the natural goodness of our natures, not There is no natural goodness to human nature - that is purely learned behavior. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 25 23:12:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16672 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16666; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA11529; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:12:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <20796.869894192@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I think you must have been one of those unfortunates born > sarcasm-impaired, but since you've chosen to take me so seriously I > guess I'll respond to a few of your points, some of which I find to be > almost stunningly naieve. > > > What is it that you like to do, want to do or enjoy doing that, were one > > special interest group or another were to manage to have a law passed > > against it, (the point of the gun) that it would cause you distress? > > Just about everything, but then I see law not as a some benign force, > set about purely and altruistically by others for our own good, but > rather as the feudal contract between the serf and his current > overlord. Oh, we've santized and homogenized the whole process of > enforcing a power structure to the point where some deluded fools > actually think they control the process, but it's not about that at > all. Mankind is a wolfpack society, and there's always a hierarchy of > dominance and submission involved. I have come to the conclusion that the fundamental model of government is not the social contract but the gang, perhaps not so different from the wolfpack. The gang has the guns. > > So though my remarks about forcing people around at gunpoint were > sarcastic, they're hardly something which I have deep moral feelings > about. There will always be someone out there who will try to stick a > gun to my head if they think it will further their aims and, should > the situation truly warrant it, it's not a tactic I'd eschew myself. > > What defines us as human beings is our judgement about what does and > does not warrant the use of that kind of force, not some arbitrary > moral line drawn in the sand which you try to get everyone in society > to stand only on one side of (usually, and oh-so-conveniently, allowing > the line-drawer the sole privilege of occupying either side at will). Our judgment about what warrants the use of force may define us as individual human beings, but what defines the society is the extent to which the gang's use of its guns can be limited and controlled, and how one gang can depose another. Thus there are wolfpacks, and then again there are wolfpacks. Some wolfpacks are better places to live not because the alpha wolves are any different, but because the other wolves have better means of controlling the abuses of power of the alphas. > > > The above are in keeping with the natural goodness of our natures, not > > There is no natural goodness to human nature - that is purely learned > behavior. :-) So, you agree on something. :) Meanwhile, I'm having this problem with my tcpwrappers..... Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 26 00:00:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18062 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA18056; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA21176; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:00:21 -0700 (PDT) To: Annelise Anderson cc: ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:12:25 PDT." Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:00:21 -0700 Message-ID: <21172.869900421@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Our judgment about what warrants the use of force may define us as > individual human beings, but what defines the society is the extent to > which the gang's use of its guns can be limited and controlled, and how > one gang can depose another. An interesting viewpoint, but one I can't quite share since I don't see the process of gang warfare moderation as something which is actually done by societies, hence they deserve no credit for it. I believe instead that what limits and controls a gang's use of guns are the gang hierarchies themselves, deciding as military generals do what levels of attrition are acceptable and when it's time to call the guys on the other side and suggest an end to hostilities before both are left overly weak and open to predation by other wolfpacks. In other words, I see this more as a function of natural equilibrium (and subject to the same instabilities thereof) than of laws and truly successful sheparding of one's unruly flock at work. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 26 14:22:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20870 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20857; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA13005; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:22:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <21172.869900421@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Our judgment about what warrants the use of force may define us as > > individual human beings, but what defines the society is the extent to > > which the gang's use of its guns can be limited and controlled, and how > > one gang can depose another. > > An interesting viewpoint, but one I can't quite share since I don't > see the process of gang warfare moderation as something which is > actually done by societies, hence they deserve no credit for it. > > I believe instead that what limits and controls a gang's use of guns > are the gang hierarchies themselves, deciding as military generals do > what levels of attrition are acceptable and when it's time to call the > guys on the other side and suggest an end to hostilities before both > are left overly weak and open to predation by other wolfpacks. > > In other words, I see this more as a function of natural equilibrium > (and subject to the same instabilities thereof) than of laws and truly > successful sheparding of one's unruly flock at work. > > Jordan The problem with saying that they're all alike and it's all human nature is that it leaves you with no way to decide whether one set of rules, institutions, and so forth is better (according to whatever values you may hold) than another. Because gangs (governments) can potentially do great evil (moving large numbers of people around, murdering large numbers of their citizens, sending people to one kind of prison or another, controlling access to resources and thus the means to communicate, organize, etc.), I prefer arrangements that limit such abuses of power and make it possible to take action (preferably peacefully) when people decide that the gang's gone far enough. It is of course also human nature for people to get together and say "Let's make some rules." And furthermore to design the institutions and processes by which it will be decided who gets to enforce the rules and make new ones, and which rules will be especially hard to change. The rules may determine how one gets to be part of the gang and even what kinds of people are interested in doing so. This is usually a continuing process (called politics), and changes are often marginal. But in the last 15 years or so there's been rather a lot of fundamental rule-making going on (new constitutions, redesigning the government) around the world. How it eventually plays out in any given place depends on a great deal other than what gets put on paper, of course. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 26 16:48:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25765 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25750; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00257; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707262347.QAA00257@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:00:21 PDT." <21172.869900421@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:47:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > > Our judgment about what warrants the use of force may define us as > > individual human beings, but what defines the society is the extent to > > which the gang's use of its guns can be limited and controlled, and how > > one gang can depose another. > > An interesting viewpoint, but one I can't quite share since I don't > see the process of gang warfare moderation as something which is > actually done by societies, hence they deserve no credit for it. Excuse me have you ever visit LA or Harlem? The equation is very simple : make drugs and guns available don't tightly enforced the law underfund the schools initiate a vague propaganda of "how violent those people are" Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 26 16:57:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26126 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26117; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA27371; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:57:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Annelise Anderson , ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:47:42 PDT." <199707262347.QAA00257@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:57:01 -0700 Message-ID: <27367.869961421@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Excuse me have you ever visit LA or Harlem? Yes, both, and they're excellent arguments for the failure of society to moderate such forces when they resist such moderation. If it was your intention to try to give supporting evidence to my position, you've done a fine job. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 26 17:02:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26268 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA26255; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00393; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707270002.RAA00393@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:22:09 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:02:03 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Annelise Anderson : > Because gangs (governments) can potentially do great evil (moving large > numbers of people around, murdering large numbers of their citizens, > sending people to one kind of prison or another, controlling access to > resources and thus the means to communicate, organize, etc.), I prefer > arrangements that limit such abuses of power and make it possible to > take action (preferably peacefully) when people decide that the gang's > gone far enough. If I am blind, deft and mute how can I gauge how far the goverment has gone? Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 26 17:09:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26529 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA26520; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00455; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707270009.RAA00455@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:57:01 PDT." <27367.869961421@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:09:20 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Except that I was born in Harlem , raised in Puerto Rico then went back home. The tidbit about blacks / Puerto Ricans resisting to be part of main stream is white america propaganda. In fact I would argue quite the opposite by the scale of violence from the black population . Imagine the same scenario elsewhere for instance Ireland . Amancio >From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > > Excuse me have you ever visit LA or Harlem? > > Yes, both, and they're excellent arguments for the failure of society > to moderate such forces when they resist such moderation. If it was > your intention to try to give supporting evidence to my position, > you've done a fine job. ;-) > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 26 17:13:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26675 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA26666; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA27478; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:12:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Annelise Anderson , ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:09:20 PDT." <199707270009.RAA00455@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:12:53 -0700 Message-ID: <27474.869962373@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Except that I was born in Harlem , raised in Puerto Rico then went > back home. The tidbit about blacks / Puerto Ricans resisting > to be part of main stream is white america propaganda. In fact I don't know how and where and this topic suddenly went ethnic on us, but I was talking about general human behavior, not that of some subset of the population, all along. I also never commented on anyone's desire to be "part of the main stream", simply on the fact that human societies, whether they exist in Harlem or Belfast, tend to find their own equilibrium where it comes to harmonious (or not) relations within that community, regardless of external pressures. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 26 17:38:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27638 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27629; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00620; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707270037.RAA00620@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , ML Duke , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:12:53 PDT." <27474.869962373@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:37:47 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > I don't know how and where and this topic suddenly went ethnic on us, > but I was talking about general human behavior, not that of some > subset of the population, all along. I also never commented on > anyone's desire to be "part of the main stream", simply on the fact > that human societies, whether they exist in Harlem or Belfast, tend to > find their own equilibrium where it comes to harmonious (or not) > relations within that community, regardless of external pressures. > Hmm... Actually, I didn't mean to be ethnic rather to show how "external pressures" affects communities and that the targetted communities are at the mercy of their oppressor if they chose not to change the system irrespective of any "harmonious equilibrium" in the community. Amancio