From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 03:54:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA27146 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA27139 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 03:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp7.monmouth.com [205.164.221.39]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA25215; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 06:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id GAA02900 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Sun, 24 Aug 1997 06:54:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199708241054.GAA02900@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... In-Reply-To: <19970824100019.40411@lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 24, 97 10:00:19 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 06:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, Aug 21, 1997 at 04:12:49PM -0600, Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC wrote: > > 5 years ago, most superficial computer users thought that Microsoft > was the best thing since sliced bread. Nowadays, I notice significant > displeasure with Microsoft even in their own user base, even though NT > is indubitably better than DOG. In addition, the desktop market is > getting saturated, while other areas, notably telecom, are still > growing. I don't see Microsoft getting a good foothold with Telcos, > and things like the Mars landing and Deep Blue should also (if people > only knew) be good advertisments for UNIX. > > > NT, I sneer at thee! ;^) > > The German equivalent of "say no to " is ", nein danke"--No > Thanks. With that background, and abbreviated: Microsoft, NT. > > Greg > Actually, NT is doing very well within Telcos. Lucent and AT&T have moved their desktops and a number of pieces of development to NT boxes. (Price drives all decisions in the free market.) Since Unix is not a free item anymore (like it was when AT&T ran it's business on 11/70's running modified versions of V7 and SysIII) they're beginning to look to Intel hardware with cheap OS's... When I worked with an IBM group on TMN software (telecomm network management software on top of NetView) there was talk about other platforms (such as NT) being requested by a number of telcos. Deep Blue still doesn't sell a lot of AIX for IBM. (But it sure looked fairly impressive to me!) Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 07:47:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03950 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pandora.hh.kew.com (root@kendra.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03945 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonata (sonata.hh.kew.com [192.195.203.135]) by pandora.hh.kew.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05245; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 10:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <34004982.1129@kew.com> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 10:47:30 -0400 From: Drew Derbyshire Reply-To: ahd@kew.com Organization: Kendra Electronic Wonderworks X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-MOENE (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: excessive verbosity References: <199708232248.SAA01776@pandora.hh.kew.com> <199708240436.XAA00969@compound.east.sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (cc'ed to chat) Tony Kimball wrote: > Quoth Drew Derbyshire on Sat, 23 August: > : > Do we really need console messages like this? > : > cd0: NOT READY asc:3a,0 Medium not present > : > cd0: error code 0 > : > > : > I think they are a security hole, if nothing else. > : > : Huh? Why is that? > > Anyone logged in can poll and empty CD drive and > overflow the log space. Any program can do that with logger, or write a (long) one-line C program to call syslog directly. So I must disagree as it to being any real hole. -ahd- -- Internet: ahd@kew.com Voice: 617-279-9810 "I fight Authority, Authority always wins . . ." From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 10:22:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10021 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 10:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10003 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 10:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA04529 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:22:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA23656; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:19:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970824191944.AV07605@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:19:44 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... References: <19970824100019.40411@lemis.com> <199708241054.GAA02900@i4got.lakewood.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199708241054.GAA02900@i4got.lakewood.com>; from Bill Pechter on Aug 24, 1997 06:54:05 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bill Pechter wrote: > Lucent and AT&T have moved > their desktops and a number of pieces of development to NT boxes. (Price > drives all decisions in the free market.) Apparently not. If this were the case, we'd have many more FreeBSD and Linux installations. So it very apparently drives not *all* decisions. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 12:19:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16821 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16812 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 25465 on Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:18:56 GMT; id TAA25465 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00726; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970824202223.49716@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:22:23 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... References: <19970824100019.40411@lemis.com> <199708241054.GAA02900@i4got.lakewood.com> <19970824191944.AV07605@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <19970824191944.AV07605@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Sun, Aug 24, 1997 at 07:19:44PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch shared with us: > As Bill Pechter wrote: > > > Lucent and AT&T have moved > > their desktops and a number of pieces of development to NT boxes. (Price > > drives all decisions in the free market.) > > Apparently not. If this were the case, we'd have many more FreeBSD > and Linux installations. So it very apparently drives not *all* > decisions. Except when the party involved wants official support, like about all mayor corporations. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 12:53:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18445 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from noc.msc.edu (noc.msc.edu [137.66.12.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18439 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uc.msc.edu by noc.msc.edu (5.65/MSC/v3.0.1(920324)) id AA08319; Sun, 24 Aug 97 14:52:44 -0500 Received: from pobox.com (fergus-32.dialup.prtel.com [206.10.99.163]) by uc.msc.edu (8.7.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id OAA13021; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:52:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from alk@localhost) by pobox.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA03192; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:52:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:52:38 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: alk@pobox.com Message-Id: <199708241952.OAA03192@pobox.com> From: Tony Kimball Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: ahd@kew.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: excessive verbosity References: <199708232248.SAA01776@pandora.hh.kew.com> <199708240436.XAA00969@compound.east.sun.com> <34004982.1129@kew.com> X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoth Drew Derbyshire on Sun, 24 August: : : Any program can do that with logger, or write a (long) one-line C : program to call syslog directly. So I must disagree as it to being any : real hole. It's a matter of what you put in syslog.conf. User code can't generate LOG_KERN messages. I can configure syslog so that it is a security problem, or I can configure syslog so that it is not a security problem. But I need to modify the kernel to fix my original complaint. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 13:43:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20325 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x173-171.reshalls.umn.edu (x173-171.reshalls.umn.edu [160.94.173.171]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20311 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by x173-171.reshalls.umn.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA01693; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:44:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708242044.PAA01693@x173-171.reshalls.umn.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: x173-171.reshalls.umn.edu: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol From: mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu To: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:22:23 +0200." <19970824202223.49716@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:44:24 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > J Wunsch shared with us: > > As Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > > Lucent and AT&T have moved > > > their desktops and a number of pieces of development to NT boxes. (Price > > > drives all decisions in the free market.) > > > > Apparently not. If this were the case, we'd have many more FreeBSD > > and Linux installations. So it very apparently drives not *all* > > decisions. > > Except when the party involved wants official support, like about > all mayor corporations. Which isn't cheap for /any/ operating system. And it exists for FreeBSD. (well, they have a sizeable 'consultants' page, anyway). Also, with FreeBSD, UNIX shops wouldn't incur the extra cost of re-training, re-hiring, and/or/ running with inexperienced staff during re-training/hiring. NT is not ready for prime-time, and the shop would still need a UNIX server or two (even Microsoft did). Then you have the extra cost/hassle of maintaining a heterogeneous network (ouch). -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 14:31:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22714 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22709 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA01388 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:31:27 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id XAA25313 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:30:57 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.6/keltia-uucp-2.9) id VAA09406; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:36:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970824213643.28993@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:36:43 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet References: <199708061817.LAA10970@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: ; from spork on Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 07:17:53PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3481 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to spork: > In addition, as you may know, UUNET has been targeted by a group of > newsgroup administrators who have mistakenly accused UUNET of ignoring > spamming complaints. "mistakenly" ?? That's utter bullshit. The UDP was done because most of the spams came from UUnet. I've sent many letters of complaint to UUnet and never got anything more than their regular auto-answer. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #24: Fri Aug 22 23:13:44 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 14:31:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22774 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22769 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA01391 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:31:27 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id XAA25312 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:30:57 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.6/keltia-uucp-2.9) id VAA09386; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:28:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970824212802.28510@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:28:02 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI disk prices... References: <199708011253.WAA05651@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199708011253.WAA05651@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 10:23:56PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3481 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ old mail I know, just comming back from holidays ] According to Michael Smith: > Just to keep you informed on the IDE vs. SCSI war here : > > IBM DCAS-34330U, 4500rpm, 4330MB AUD$513 > IBM DCAS-34330UW, 4500rpm, 4330MB wide AUD$574 Both are 5400 rpm disks, not 4500 rpm. > The IDE version of the same disk : > > IBM DCAA-34330, 4500rpm, 4330MB ATA-3 AUD$349 I think the IDE version is also a 5400 rpm drive but I'm not sure (although it would surprise me if not). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #24: Fri Aug 22 23:13:44 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 15:32:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25862 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25856 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20760; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 17:30:08 -0500 Message-Id: <3400D1B1.284D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 17:28:33 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Nice satellite images Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wow, Looking around at GRASS, I found these very nice images; http://www.cecer.army.mil/grass/pics/piclist.html someone should take the time to build GRASS for FreeBSD...but please DON'T add it to the ports tree...it's gigantic :). A new WC CD perhaps? Hmm..I remember there was a way to get this images with a special radio when I had a TRS-80 !,... Any free option similar to this in UNIX? Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 15:35:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26070 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merchant.tns.net (tcilx.terracom-usa.com [204.216.142.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26062 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tiller@localhost) by merchant.tns.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA13822; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708242230.PAA13822@merchant.tns.net> From: "Studded" To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , "mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 97 15:34:16 -0700 Reply-To: "Studded" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:44:24 -0500, mikk0022@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote: Someone (Joerg?) wrote: >> Except when the party involved wants official support, like about >> all mayor corporations. > >Which isn't cheap for /any/ operating system. And it exists for FreeBSD. >(well, they have a sizeable 'consultants' page, anyway). Actually in way too many cases "support" means "someone we can sue." FreeBSD works in environments where the people that have the money and make the decisions are going to have their hands on the hardware, but once you start moving into the big money markets (I am speaking for the US only, although I anticipate it's probably the same other places) having someone to recover damages from is at least as important as having someone on the other end of the tech-support number. Doug Do thou amend they face, and I'll amend my life. -Shakespeare, "Henry V" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 21:35:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16589 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16581 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18458 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:05:21 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au ([127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01430; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:42:54 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708250412.NAA01430@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: screwinup@aol.com (Screwinup), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anarchists decry 72lbs plutonium launc In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:13:00 MST." <199708250313.UAA00633@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:42:44 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Oct. 6, NASA will launch a space probe containing 72 lbs. of > > plutonium. This is the 24th launch containing plutonium. Three have failed > > and two have burned up leaving 1 to 3 lbs of plutonium dust in the > > atmosphere. That will cause untold people to get lung cancer years hence, > > but may already be causing decreased immunity we perceive as "new > > diseases" or old ones coming back. > > Ah, uunet, how we've missed ya'... We have? > Plutonium is a metabolic poison; it interferes between stage 2 > and stage 3 of the Krebbs cycle. If you were going to be dead from > it you would be dead already. Take an elementry biology course. My SO (biotech) thought this was kinda funny too. Mind you, you could argue that depending on which isotope is in question, the radioactive decay activity _might_ pose a cancer risk. Decreased immunity, OTOH, isn't an issue. (Wrong material, try iodine.) > Finally, the waste materials from a coal or petroleum fired power > plant don't break down, period, unless acted upon by a highly > energetic process. One taking more energy than was originally > produced (it's called "entropy", kids); take an elementry chemistry > course. Nuclear waste is only toxic for 50,000 years (or less), > a far cry shorter than forever. This is oversimplistic; the ultimate waste materials in question here are hydrogen, carbon and oxygen (don't get too carried away about the trace junk 8), and these _are_ recombined as part of the biosphere energy cycle. The only problem is that the cycle time is a bit long given our rate of consumption. > PS: any takers on a guess as to whether or not 72lbs is over critical > mass for Plutonium? My understanding (Brian Handy, are you listening here?) is that the plutonium is used as a heat source to provide electrical power. I have a hard time imagining 30+ kilos of the stuff being required for anything on the scale of a satellite. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 24 22:52:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20880 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20864 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id HAA13045 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:52:11 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA27741; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:44:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970825074400.WW59526@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:44:00 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... References: <199708242230.PAA13822@merchant.tns.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199708242230.PAA13822@merchant.tns.net>; from Studded on Aug 24, 1997 15:34:16 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Studded wrote: > Actually in way too many cases "support" means "someone we can > sue." Did you try suing Microsoft? I sometimes would, if it were possible (they have been wasting much of our money e.g. with dubious DNS queries). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 00:18:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25446 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 00:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod5.logic.it [195.120.151.21] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25429 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 00:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 658 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Aug 1997 07:17:33 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:17:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it Reply-To: Marco Molteni To: chat@freebsd.org cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: ATT Unix for Windows ! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [please remove -questions from the Cc field] Hi guys, while wandering on the web I found something very interesting at http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/uwin/ Quoting from that web page: The U/WIN package provides a mechanism for building and running UNIX applications on Windows NT and Windows 95 with few, if any, changes necessary. The U/WIN package contains the following three elements: 1. Libraries that provide the UNIX Application Programming Interface (API) 2. Include files and development tools such as cc, yacc, lex, and make. 3. Korn Shell and over 160 utilities such as ls, sed, cp, stty etc. Cheers Marco From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 01:31:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28577 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 01:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from afs.ntc.mita.keio.ac.jp (afs.ntc.mita.keio.ac.jp [131.113.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28572 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 01:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by afs.ntc.mita.keio.ac.jp (8.7.4+2.6Wbeta6/3.4W5-ntc_mailserver1.02) id RAA22863; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:30:13 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:30:13 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199708250830.RAA22863@afs.ntc.mita.keio.ac.jp> To: molter@logic.it Cc: chat@freebsd.org, hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:17:32 +0200 (MET DST). From: hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article molter@logic.it writes: >> The U/WIN package provides a mechanism for building and running UNIX >> applications on Windows NT and Windows 95 with few, if any, changes >> necessary. >> >> The U/WIN package contains the following three elements: >> >> 1. Libraries that provide the UNIX Application Programming Interface >> (API) >> 2. Include files and development tools such as cc, yacc, lex, and make. >> 3. Korn Shell and over 160 utilities such as ls, sed, cp, stty etc. In Japan, such software has been used for years. The name is "BSD on Windows". According to its homepage (http://www.ascii.co.jp/pb/superascii/bow/index.html - written in Japanese), "BSD on Windows" is a BSD UNIX kernel emulator that executes 4.4BSD-lite based BSD UNIX program (i386 architecture) on Microsoft Windows, and you can enjoy single user multi tasking UNIX compatible environemnt. BSD UNIX binary includes editors like Mule (Multilingal Emacs), vi, filters like perl, awk, sed, and development tools like cc, as, make are used without little modifications. It's commercial software (costs about $100), and I don't know whether it works on English Windows or not. -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi Network Technology Center Keio University hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 05:48:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08257 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08252 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (ksmm@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA24142 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970825084650.009b97f0@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:46:50 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:17 AM 8/25/97 +0200, Marco Molteni wrote: >The U/WIN package provides a mechanism for building and running UNIX >applications on Windows NT and Windows 95 with few, if any, changes >necessary. > >http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/uwin/ Two can play at that game -- http://www.willows.com K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 05:52:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08488 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (root@ppp-146.halifax-01.ican.net [206.231.248.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08483 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (scrappy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.7/8.8.2) with SMTP id JAA07629; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:51:46 -0300 (ADT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:51:45 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Windows 95: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 06:06:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA09268 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod2.logic.it [195.120.151.18] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09259 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 525 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Aug 1997 13:06:14 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:06:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: HOSOKAWA Tatsumi cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <199708250830.RAA22863@afs.ntc.mita.keio.ac.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, HOSOKAWA Tatsumi wrote: > In Japan, such software has been used for years. The name is "BSD on > Windows". > > According to its homepage > (http://www.ascii.co.jp/pb/superascii/bow/index.html - written in > Japanese), > > "BSD on Windows" is a BSD UNIX kernel emulator that executes ^^^^^^^^ > 4.4BSD-lite based BSD UNIX program (i386 architecture) on > Microsoft Windows, and you can enjoy single user multi tasking > UNIX compatible environemnt. (..) > It's commercial software (costs about $100), and I don't know whether > it works on English Windows or not. According to the ATT homepage (http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/uwin/) the software is free and is not a kernel emulator, is a set of DLLs: "The library functions are implemented as functions exported in a DLL (POSIX.DLL). Programs linked with POSIX.DLL run under the WIN32 subsystem instead of the POSIX subsystem. Thus programs can make UNIX library calls or any other WIN32 call as required. A cc command is provided to compile and link programs for U/WIN on Windows NT. The cc command calls either the Microsoft Visual C/C++ 2.X compiler, the Visual C/C++ 4.X compiler, the Visual C/C++ 5.0 compiler, or the Microsoft Tools C compiler to perform the actual compilation and linking." Obviously :-(, you can download only the binaries (ie no source). Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. "This snakeskin jacket symbolizes my individuality and belief in personal freedom". From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 06:42:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11300 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ozemail.com.au (server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net [203.108.7.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11292; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet11.ozemail.com.au (oznet11.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.118]) by ozemail.com.au (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA07599; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:42:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from richard (slmel59p18.ozemail.com.au [203.108.205.66]) by oznet11.ozemail.com.au (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA23142; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:45:01 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> From: "Richard Lyon" To: "Marco Molteni" , Cc: Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:44:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1008.3 X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk No source code available. Uses VC++ Don't see any reference to X clients No reference to successfully ported apps. Look at gnu-win32 (cygnus) which uses gcc. -----Original Message----- From: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Monday, 25 August 1997 17:27 Subject: ATT Unix for Windows ! [please remove -questions from the Cc field] Hi guys, while wandering on the web I found something very interesting at http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/uwin/ Quoting from that web page: The U/WIN package provides a mechanism for building and running UNIX applications on Windows NT and Windows 95 with few, if any, changes necessary. The U/WIN package contains the following three elements: 1. Libraries that provide the UNIX Application Programming Interface (API) 2. Include files and development tools such as cc, yacc, lex, and make. 3. Korn Shell and over 160 utilities such as ls, sed, cp, stty etc. Cheers Marco From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 07:25:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14642 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14629 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id IAA04560; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:35:38 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:35:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708251435.IAA04560@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... In-Reply-To: <19970824100019.40411@lemis.com> References: <199708212212.QAA21565@xmission.xmission.com> <19970824100019.40411@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > On Thu, Aug 21, 1997 at 04:12:49PM -0600, Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC wrote: > > This is the first line of an interesting article by Jeff Bliss of > > _Computer Reseller News_. > > JOOI, how reliable a source do you consider CRN to be? No better or worse than most industry rags. They quoted a source in the article, one of the large bonehead commentator, er, industry research firms. I think it was Dataquest, but don't hold me to it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 08:42:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18755 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18746 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14099; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:42:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:42:24 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: The Hermit Hacker cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Windows 95: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit > patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit > microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of > competition. But MS didn't write DOS. It was written by Tim Patterson at Seattle Computer Products and MS bought it for $50,000. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 09:18:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20316 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@[205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20308 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp14.monmouth.com [205.164.221.46]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10951; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id MAA01380 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:17:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199708251617.MAA01380@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... In-Reply-To: from John Fieber at "Aug 25, 97 10:42:24 am" To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > Windows 95: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit > > patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit > > microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of > > competition. > > But MS didn't write DOS. It was written by Tim Patterson at > Seattle Computer Products and MS bought it for $50,000. > > -john > > Probably the best buy in computing. MS is worth Billions due to that one deal. Amazing. A major historical event. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 12:20:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02764 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02744 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 2046 on Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:20:41 GMT; id TAA02046 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00411; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:49:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:49:32 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au>; from Richard Lyon on Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 10:44:36PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Lyon shared with us: > [appearant disadvantages of U/WIN software] > > Uses VC++ I suppose you mean that it's a disadvantage that you have to buy this software? Because I think Visual C++ is an excellent developer environment, at least a whole lot better than the gvim/gcc/xxgdb combination I use on FreeBSD. Actually, I'm building an CGI application that runs on both NT and different Unix-es. I use VC++ for that (except for the yacc part...). Debugging and managing the whole of the project is a whole lot easier with it. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 12:20:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02785 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02775 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 2054 on Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:20:45 GMT; id TAA02054 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00456; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:16:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970825211642.11606@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:16:42 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... References: <199708251617.MAA01380@i4got.lakewood.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <199708251617.MAA01380@i4got.lakewood.com>; from Bill Pechter on Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 12:17:31PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Pechter shared with us: > > > > But MS didn't write DOS. It was written by Tim Patterson at > > Seattle Computer Products and MS bought it for $50,000. > > Probably the best buy in computing. MS is worth Billions due to > that one deal. > > Amazing. A major historical event. Uh, MS may have become big with DOS, they only became huge with Windows 3.0. They make mice, joysticks, games, compilers, office packages, server products, a lot of gimmicks to tie all of it together, but the bulk is still coming from Windows being shipped with about every PC in the world. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 13:13:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06524 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06504; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33660; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:01:20 -0500 Message-Id: <3402004D.3B80@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:59:41 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Lyon Cc: Marco Molteni , chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Lyon wrote: > > No source code available. > > Uses VC++ > > Don't see any reference to X clients > > No reference to successfully ported apps. > > Look at gnu-win32 (cygnus) which uses gcc. > Yu're right, it not emulator, but just a set of dll's. This is more interesting: http://tnt.microimages.com/www/html/freestuf/mix.htm but who would like to have a low quality Xserver? cheers, Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 13:21:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07030 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07017 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29866; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:14:30 -0500 Message-Id: <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:12:50 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Korsten Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten wrote: > > I suppose you mean that it's a disadvantage that you have to buy > this software? Because I think Visual C++ is an excellent developer > environment, at least a whole lot better than the gvim/gcc/xxgdb > combination I use on FreeBSD. > Come on..those stupid wizards generate lots of bloat. At least with gcc you have exactly what you wrote. Let's go a bit further: Visual C++ is not even a visual a language, it's M$ pathetic attempt to turn C++ into "Visual" Basic. Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 13:44:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08707 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08699 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 9366 on Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:44:18 GMT; id UAA09366 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00671; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:42:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:42:58 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro Giffuni S, on Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 03:12:50PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Pedro Giffuni S, shared with us: > Peter Korsten wrote: > > > > I suppose you mean that it's a disadvantage that you have to buy > > this software? Because I think Visual C++ is an excellent developer > > environment, at least a whole lot better than the gvim/gcc/xxgdb > > combination I use on FreeBSD. > > Come on..those stupid wizards generate lots of bloat. At least with gcc > you have exactly what you wrote. Let's go a bit further: Visual C++ is > not even a visual a language, it's M$ pathetic attempt to turn C++ into > "Visual" Basic. Well, at least they have something visual. Do you know of any handy tool to patch a program together that happens to run with FreeBSD? That runs with X too? For the same price as VC++? If you write simple stdin/stdout programs (a so called Console Application in Visual C++), it's far easier to use. A really good editor, a really good debugger, and all of it integrated. Not to mention the difference between a makefile with tons of '-switches', compared to a project workspace. Perhaps I can spend a week and look for all kinds of tools that have some, the same, or even more functionality than VC++, but in my case, it's cheaper to buy VC++. And it comes with manuals and a great online help, instead of some info files nobody but Gnu uses. But well, this is only from my personal experience from a FreeBSD system and a Windows NT 4.0 system two metres apart. Of course, I find MS's marketing strategy - either buying or crushing the competition in about _every_ field in computing - disturbing, to say the least. But they do make decent software. Maybe not all of it, but much of it. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 13:47:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08913 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elmira.functional.com (root@elmira.functional.com [198.82.216.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08845 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elmira.functional.com (grail@localhost.functional.com [127.0.0.1]) by elmira.functional.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12662; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708252037.QAA12662@elmira.functional.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:49:32 +0200." <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:37:11 -0400 From: Giao Nguyen Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten said: > I suppose you mean that it's a disadvantage that you have to buy > this software? Because I think Visual C++ is an excellent developer > environment, at least a whole lot better than the gvim/gcc/xxgdb > combination I use on FreeBSD. I dunno. I used the Microsoft Visual C++ environment almost on a daily basis. I wasn't that thrilled. It's well integrated, certainly. Personally I like the xemacs/gcc/ddd combo. Granted these are very disjointed products. However, xemacs and make presents a very usable interface and it's object browser isn't bad if you use it all. But that's just me .... From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 14:57:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13699 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13682 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA14119; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:56:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... In-Reply-To: <19970825211642.11606@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > Bill Pechter shared with us: > > > > > > But MS didn't write DOS. It was written by Tim Patterson at > > > Seattle Computer Products and MS bought it for $50,000. > > > > Probably the best buy in computing. MS is worth Billions due to > > that one deal. > > > > Amazing. A major historical event. > > Uh, MS may have become big with DOS, they only became huge with > Windows 3.0. > > They make mice, joysticks, games, compilers, office packages, server > products, a lot of gimmicks to tie all of it together, but the bulk > is still coming from Windows being shipped with about every PC in > the world. This is more than a little irritating. It's nearly impossible nowadays to buy a PC without contributing to MS, whether you intend to run Windows or not. They _didn't_ fairly win the market, they _aren't_ fairly keeping the market, sure they have good tools, because they have outright stolen what they couldn't buy (see Stacker!). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 15:42:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17231 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust73.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17222 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id SAA00919; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970825184219.02943@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:42:19 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Chuck Robey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970825211642.11606@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 05:56:44PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 05:56:44PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > This is more than a little irritating. It's nearly impossible nowadays to > buy a PC without contributing to MS, whether you intend to run Windows or > not. They _didn't_ fairly win the market, they _aren't_ fairly keeping > the market, sure they have good tools, because they have outright stolen > what they couldn't buy (see Stacker!). This is why I decided a while back not to buy a whole computer again, to just buy the parts piecemeal. I don't use or like Windoze that much, so why should I have to pay for a copy? -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL+++^i GDF- B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Di $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 15:44:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17349 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17314 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23488; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:40:07 -0500 Message-Id: <34022579.677D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:38:31 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Korsten Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten wrote: > > > Well, at least they have something visual. Do you know of any handy > tool to patch a program together that happens to run with FreeBSD? > That runs with X too? For the same price as VC++? > Search in the announce-list: Parasoft (I think) was planning to release their excellent products for FreeBSD, depending on how many people were interested. There's also Cygnus' "Source Navigator", perhaps if more FreeBSD users were interested they would release it for FreeBSD, but the Linux version should work. > > Perhaps I can spend a week and look for all kinds of tools that > have some, the same, or even more functionality than VC++, but in > my case, it's cheaper to buy VC++. And it comes with manuals and > a great online help, instead of some info files nobody but Gnu > uses. > I have always seen Borland's products as far more interesting than M$, but I admit I don't like the GNU dev. environment either. Show me a free development environment for Windows that has all the GNU features and I'll say we are even. > Of course, I find MS's marketing strategy - either buying or crushing > the competition in about _every_ field in computing - disturbing, to > say the least. But they do make decent software. Maybe not all of it, > but much of it. > I saw an article in Newsweek where Moritz explained they didn't care to release software in "Beta" state. They know about the problems, release the software and two months later they release a fix. If you haven't got the message...it's a matter of business, quality doesn't have anything to do with it, and their tools reflect their philosophy perfectly. > - Peter Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 15:52:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18030 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17867 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52222; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:46:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3402271E.3E6F@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:45:18 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <3402004D.3B80@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Pedro Giffuni S, wrote: > > Yu're right, it not emulator, but just a set of dll's. This is more Oops...I ate quite many letters here...sorry, as "fortune" said yesterday: Spelling is a lossed art. :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 16:07:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18832 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18821 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21893; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:06:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: hcremean@vt.edu cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... In-Reply-To: <19970825184219.02943@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 05:56:44PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > This is more than a little irritating. It's nearly impossible nowadays to > > buy a PC without contributing to MS, whether you intend to run Windows or > > not. They _didn't_ fairly win the market, they _aren't_ fairly keeping > > the market, sure they have good tools, because they have outright stolen > > what they couldn't buy (see Stacker!). > > This is why I decided a while back not to buy a whole computer again, to > just buy the parts piecemeal. I don't use or like Windoze that much, so > why should I have to pay for a copy? > Agree completely. I'm doing a project for the University of Maryland, using Borland tools to do a very stripped down 32 bit OS for students. The most difficult part? Avoiding all the Microsoft hooks in the code, which means decompiling the obj files and literally plucking out the Windows calls. Folks in Congress won't help, I think, although this is the most egregious monopoly in our history, because Windows is the only OS they know, and they're literally scared what would happen if it wasn't universal. They know very little, and don't want you to know that. > -- > Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) > A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL+++^i GDF- B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Di > $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu > FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) > My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 16:36:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20505 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20485 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09642; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23625; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:36:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:36:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Suggestions from a unix dummy..... In-Reply-To: <9708251652.AA129381@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu wrote: > Applying unix dummies dunce cap and sitting on yon stool in the corner..... > > What about setting up the ftp install scripts and the archive trees > something like..... > > FreeBSD/x.x.x.x-release/ > FreeBSD/x.x.x.x-release/binary > FreeBSD/x.x.x.x-release/sources [repeated for -stable and -current] I'm not sure that this wins us very much. The source for every version of every file is available via CVS (there is a nice web-interface on www.freebsd.org). Separate binary-source dirs really don't buy much (actually, they probably cost more since more ftp connections would have to be negotiated). > FreeBSD/bootdisks/ Unfortunately, bootdisks _really_ are tied to releases. Even if they could be separated, that would mostly create confusions and problems (you need min. version x to install ver.x of FreeBSD, and don't forget to report your bootdisk version in any questions you ask). > Move the releng thing into current-stable. It is a good idea, but > its nomenclature is confusing. "releng", I believe, comes mostly from the nature of the CVS repository. 2.2 is developed, giving you 2.2-releng, 2.1 is developed, giving you 2.1-releng. -stable is the correct term. > Move the development work from 3.0 into current-development. It is > a good idea, but 3.0 is not yet 3.0, but it is ``current-development''. BINGO! You win a prize! Now, if everyone else can just be taught that. The unfortunate problem is that -current needs a version number of some sort. It's definately not 2.x, and, since it will eventually be 3.x, it identifies itself as such. However, it should _never_ be referred to as FreeBSD 3.0, only as FreeBSD-970901-SNAP or FreeBSD-current. > A VERSION file in appropriate directories would tell you the current > version number for any current tree, or release tree, and could be > parsed by the install scripts to confirm the validity of the tree, > if need be. $ uname -r > Forget about snaps, except as archive trees for the normal time > snaps are kept around in the archive subdirectories, just for reference. > The naming blows up the install scripts if your install disk is only > a little out of sync. It is a good idea, but the nomenclature in > naming is marginal. There's already -release, -current, -stable, so why not -snap? > Put all the ports in one place, and make any port buildable on any You mean in one big directory? Um. Hm. No. :-) > release or any current-stable or current-development box. Maybe > this would make many less headaches in out of sync ports. It should > be entirely possible in principle and probably in practice to make any > port build on any release from 2.1.7.1 up through the latest current Officially ports are only supported on -stable. This is to keep the amount of work manageable. However, if you find a port that doesn't work on -current or any other release (PROVIDED you are using an up-to-date bsd.port.mk and friends), you are encouraged to send patches in a pr. > That way, all the install scripts install from ONE AND ONLY ONE > pointer. You don't wind up with your snap vaporized a week down the I'm not sure I see how you solved that ("snap vapourized") problem. Keeping snaps hanging around forever is not really an option. I've found from empirical evidence that it's only a minor (if at all) problem. Besides, -snap is not -release; if you install -snap, you should be prepared to reinstall shortly down the road. > road. YOU ALWAYS GET THE CURRENT SNAP FROM ANY INSTALL DISK (verrrrrry > important and goooooood for us dummy folks --- saveum lotsa headscratchums). dummy folks shouldn't install -snap. :-) Don't forget: -snap is -current. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 16:51:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21340 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merchant.tns.net (tcilx.terracom-usa.com [204.216.142.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21335 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tiller@localhost) by merchant.tns.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA21923; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708252346.QAA21923@merchant.tns.net> From: "Studded" To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 16:51:20 -0700 Reply-To: "Studded" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:44:00 +0200, J Wunsch wrote: >Did you try suing Microsoft? Well, considering that apple got a cool $140 mil for their trouble, it might be worth it. :) Doug Do thou amend they face, and I'll amend my life. -Shakespeare, "Henry V" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 17:03:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22241 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22222 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01828; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:31:52 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708260001.JAA01828@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Chuck Robey cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:06:49 -0400." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:31:49 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Agree completely. I'm doing a project for the University of Maryland, > using Borland tools to do a very stripped down 32 bit OS for students. > The most difficult part? Avoiding all the Microsoft hooks in the code, > which means decompiling the obj files and literally plucking out the > Windows calls. So use the Delorie tools. No MS hooks, already a flat 32-bit model, and gosh, you can crossdevelop for it under FreeBSD 8) We did a project a while back where I started on a DOS system with the Delorie tools, moved to OS/2 and emx (still targetting go32), then to FreeBSD, still targetting DOS/go32. At the same time, there were no MS or Borland tools around that could have given us what we needed (a flat 32-bit DOS extended with inbuilt VM). Watcom _might_, but the four-figure pricetag was totally out of the question. (Oh, you get all the source, too 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 17:26:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23693 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23679 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id SAA04804; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:25:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199708260025.SAA04804@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:25:30 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Aug 25, 97 10:42:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But MS didn't write DOS. It was written by Tim Patterson at > Seattle Computer Products and MS bought it for $50,000. Bzzzt! Wrong answer. MS bought two "licenses to use" for $500.00 apiece, disassembled it, changed a few strings, reassembled it, and called this "MS-DOS 1.0". SCP later sued them and recovered 20 million or so, which certainly caused Microsoft less pain than developing their own OS would have. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 17:26:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23756 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23731 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA27231; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:24:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Mike Smith cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... In-Reply-To: <199708260001.JAA01828@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Agree completely. I'm doing a project for the University of Maryland, > > using Borland tools to do a very stripped down 32 bit OS for students. > > The most difficult part? Avoiding all the Microsoft hooks in the code, > > which means decompiling the obj files and literally plucking out the > > Windows calls. > > So use the Delorie tools. No MS hooks, already a flat 32-bit model, > and gosh, you can crossdevelop for it under FreeBSD 8) You really think I'm voluntarily using the Borland Tools?? 1) you're completely right. 2) Doesn't matter, I can't get the prof to agree. I thought to this about 3 months ago, fought that battle, lost. > > We did a project a while back where I started on a DOS system with the > Delorie tools, moved to OS/2 and emx (still targetting go32), then to > FreeBSD, still targetting DOS/go32. At the same time, there were no MS > or Borland tools around that could have given us what we needed (a > flat 32-bit DOS extended with inbuilt VM). Watcom _might_, but the > four-figure pricetag was totally out of the question. In fact, you _can_ get it to work with Borland. WDOSX as a dos extender does it, and the Borland 32 bit mode is flat. I don't say you'd enjoy doing it, but you _can_ get it working, C code. > > (Oh, you get all the source, too 8) > > mike > > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 17:28:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23856 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23850 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id SAA05104; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:27:55 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199708260027.SAA05104@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:27:55 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Aug 25, 97 05:56:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey said: > This is more than a little irritating. It's nearly impossible nowadays to > buy a PC without contributing to MS, whether you intend to run Windows or > not. They _didn't_ fairly win the market, they _aren't_ fairly keeping > the market, sure they have good tools, because they have outright stolen > what they couldn't buy (see Stacker!). And, wonder of wonders, they didn't develope MS-DOS either! They bought a couple of "licenses to use", disassembled it, and developed MS-DOS from that. This was proven in court by the original creators circa 1988- 89, when Microsoft was forced to pay them some $20 million in reparation. Needless to say, *this* was the buy of the century! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 17:37:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24455 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24450 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id SAA06439; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:36:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199708260036.SAA06439@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Super orgaswms To: toneil@visigenic.com (Tim Oneil) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:36:46 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970825134210.00ae9540@mailhost> from "Tim Oneil" at Aug 25, 97 01:42:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Moved to -chat, as I just kicked this from silly to bizarre: > You actually made me realize something about myself with that letter. All I > could think about while reading it was the literary wizard who prepared > the thing typoed "orgaswms". I think I need to get out more... Sounds like a *really* good window manager, doesn't it? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 17:54:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25515 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25509 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id SAA08910; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:53:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199708260053.SAA08910@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Anarchists decry 72lbs plutonium launc To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:53:26 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199708250412.NAA01430@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Aug 25, 97 01:42:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > PS: any takers on a guess as to whether or not 72lbs is over critical > > mass for Plutonium? That would depend on the purity of the plutonium, now wouldn't it? I was once told by somebody who probably knows that with weapons- grade material, you could get a chain reaction with less than a mole of plutonium. He didn't say which isotope this needed to be. > My understanding (Brian Handy, are you listening here?) is that the > plutonium is used as a heat source to provide electrical power. I have > a hard time imagining 30+ kilos of the stuff being required for > anything on the scale of a satellite. It depends on the power budget and lifetime of the satellite. These devices, once known as SNAP generators, are about as bone-head simple as you can get: a bottle of low-grade plutonium straight out of the garbage bins at Rocky Flats, wrapped with thermocouple wires. They produce little power, but don't decay (that 50,000 yr half-life). If you've got nice, big boosters to get them out of Earth's gravity well, they're a reliable cheap source of power out beyond the gravel patch (planetary disk). -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 18:27:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26662 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26651 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA18014; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:26:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:26:58 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... In-Reply-To: <199708260025.SAA04804@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC wrote: > > But MS didn't write DOS. It was written by Tim Patterson at > > Seattle Computer Products and MS bought it for $50,000. > > Bzzzt! Wrong answer. MS bought two "licenses to use" for $500.00 > apiece, disassembled it, changed a few strings, reassembled it, > and called this "MS-DOS 1.0". SCP later sued them and recovered > 20 million or so, which certainly caused Microsoft less pain than > developing their own OS would have. Okay, my most handy source is Robert Cringely's book "Accidental Empires" which cites the $50,000 figure. Do you have another, possibly more reputable source? Not that I care what the answer is, but it would be good to know which stories are mere rumor... -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 19:05:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28143 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28137 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21923 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:34:50 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00300; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:30:51 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708260200.LAA00300@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Chuck Robey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:24:18 -0400." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:30:49 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > So use the Delorie tools. No MS hooks, already a flat 32-bit model, > > and gosh, you can crossdevelop for it under FreeBSD 8) > > You really think I'm voluntarily using the Borland Tools?? Oops. Should have checked that 8) > 1) you're completely right. > 2) Doesn't matter, I can't get the prof to agree. Argh. Politics. > In fact, you _can_ get it to work with Borland. WDOSX as a dos extender > does it, and the Borland 32 bit mode is flat. I don't say you'd enjoy > doing it, but you _can_ get it working, C code. The project I referred to was started about three years ago; BC3 was Hot Stuff back then 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 25 23:51:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19386 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19370 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA27182 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:51:53 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA03525; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:30:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:30:51 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl>; from Peter Korsten on Aug 25, 1997 22:42:58 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter Korsten wrote: > Well, at least they have something visual. Do you know of any handy > tool to patch a program together that happens to run with FreeBSD? > That runs with X too? For the same price as VC++? > > If you write simple stdin/stdout programs (a so called Console > Application in Visual C++), it's far easier to use. A really good > editor, a really good debugger, and all of it integrated. Not to > mention the difference between a makefile with tons of '-switches', > compared to a project workspace. Well, i once was fond of Borland's IDE as well, back in 1990. Later on, when i've already been programming for Unix for a couple of years, xwpe was released, and it promised to feature the Borland environment in an X11 application. I tried it. I've been shocked. I couldn't use this kind of boring IDE anymore. People mentioned Emacs, and that's also mostly my ``IDE''. xf does it for Tk (although is has its flaws, so i'm coupling it with Emacs frequently). I wish there were something freely available for Xaw. As for Makefiles: i even use them for text processing, to formulate dependencies for picture inclusion, image conversion, etc. So they are a comfort to me. :) The non-existance of Makefiles would be one of the first reasons for me to *not* use something like a Borland IDE, or M$ `Visual' stuff anymore. Once you've learned to value the flexibility of make(1), you can hardly give it up again. Even my attempt to use Applixware for text processing (since the output was required to be Win-compatible) ended up in me writing an applix-mode.el instead. :-) (Note that i had to learn Elisp for this step, something i didn't know much of before.) This way, i could type the ApplixWord document in Emacs, which was more convenient to me. No WYSIWING flickering, no terribly small letters (or zooming to a degree where you have to pan all the time), comfortable search&replace, unlimited `undo', the fingers could remain on the keyboard and didn't need to get off for a mouse e.g. in order to insert the next paragraph's headline. Of course, this is all my very personal opinion, but i'm sure quite a number of people feel the same. This might explain to the VC++ etc. users why there is so little `resonance' to IDE projects in a Unix world. Once you got used to the Unix way, you don't miss the Visual stuff. (Once you would be forced to return to that Visual stuff, after you've been used to the Unix way, i'm sure i would *hate* it.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 02:56:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00325 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00229 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id MAA15608; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:53:02 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199708260953.MAA15608@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet In-Reply-To: <19970824213643.28993@keltia.freenix.fr> from Ollivier Robert at "Aug 24, 97 09:36:43 pm" To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:53:02 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > "mistakenly" ?? That's utter bullshit. The UDP was done because most of the it's still going? on what level is it? all news via uu.net or all news from dialups? mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 05:12:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA06547 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06533 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708261210.IAA23245@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:14:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestions from a unix dummy..... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Officially ports are only supported on -stable. This is to keep > the amount of work manageable. However, if you find a port that > doesn't work on -current or any other release (PROVIDED you are > using an up-to-date bsd.port.mk and friends), you are encouraged > to send patches in a pr. This is wrong, IMHO. Ports should build on the latest official release. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 07:03:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11901 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu (csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11881 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:03:49 -0700 (PDT) From: rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: by csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu (5.61-AIX-1.2/1.0) id AA132879 (for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, from rdkeys/rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu); Tue, 26 Aug 97 10:12:43 -0400 Message-Id: <9708261412.AA132879@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Suggestions from a unix dummy..... To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu (), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199708261210.IAA23245@gatekeeper.itribe.net> from "Jamie Bowden" at Aug 26, 97 08:14:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > Officially ports are only supported on -stable. This is to keep > > the amount of work manageable. However, if you find a port that > > doesn't work on -current or any other release (PROVIDED you are > > using an up-to-date bsd.port.mk and friends), you are encouraged > > to send patches in a pr. > > This is wrong, IMHO. Ports should build on the latest official release. > > Jamie Bowden > > System Administrator, iTRiBE.net > > >From the philosophical point of view, why is it not acceptable that ports should make on ANY FreeBSD box? Assuming that one starts from fresh archive sources (and it seems to this unix dummy that they do) unless one has more than trivial patches, a make is a make is a make. I have ported a lot of minor things to my boxes (aix/minix/linux/FreeBSD). Aside from the quirks of my early aix 1.2 and my minix not being ``GCC compliant'', I find that essentially everything makes out of the box on all the machines. Porting is not that difficult anymore (99% of the time). Most sources make out of the box with any sort of half-intelligent configure script. That would make me still think a common ports tree across all FreeBSD platforms would be an ideal goal, and not that difficult to attain. Then, again, I am just the unix dummy..... Bob Keys rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 07:11:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12264 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12259 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708261409.KAA23704@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:13:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestions from a unix dummy..... In-Reply-To: <9708261412.AA132879@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu wrote: > > > > On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > > > Officially ports are only supported on -stable. This is to keep > > > the amount of work manageable. However, if you find a port that > > > doesn't work on -current or any other release (PROVIDED you are > > > using an up-to-date bsd.port.mk and friends), you are encouraged > > > to send patches in a pr. > > > > This is wrong, IMHO. Ports should build on the latest official release. > > > > Jamie Bowden > > From the philosophical point of view, why is it not acceptable that ports > should make on ANY FreeBSD box? Assuming that one starts from fresh > archive sources (and it seems to this unix dummy that they do) unless one > has more than trivial patches, a make is a make is a make. I have ported > a lot of minor things to my boxes (aix/minix/linux/FreeBSD). Aside from the > quirks of my early aix 1.2 and my minix not being ``GCC compliant'', I find > that essentially everything makes out of the box on all the machines. > Porting is not that difficult anymore (99% of the time). Most sources make > out of the box with any sort of half-intelligent configure script. That > would make me still think a common ports tree across all FreeBSD platforms > would be an ideal goal, and not that difficult to attain. Then, again, I > am just the unix dummy..... > > Bob Keys > rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu > There are significant changes from 1.x to 2.x, and from 2.1.x to 2.2.x. I am sure there are significant differences as well from 2.2.x to what will be 3.x Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 07:33:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13633 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13625; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:33:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708261433.HAA13625@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! To: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl (Peter Korsten) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> from "Peter Korsten" at Aug 25, 97 10:42:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten wrote: > > Perhaps I can spend a week and look for all kinds of tools that > have some, the same, or even more functionality than VC++, but in > my case, it's cheaper to buy VC++. And it comes with manuals and > a great online help, instead of some info files nobody but Gnu > uses. > > But well, this is only from my personal experience from a FreeBSD > system and a Windows NT 4.0 system two metres apart. > > Of course, I find MS's marketing strategy - either buying or crushing > the competition in about _every_ field in computing - disturbing, to > say the least. But they do make decent software. Maybe not all of it, > but much of it. i am surprised by this, a friend of mine here, recently had to learn C. the course dictated the use of VC++. he went thru hell getting VC++ to do what he wanted. i showed him how i would do it in xemacs/gcc (i am NOT xemacs skilled much less a wizard). he wanted to know why he had to use VC++! one ancedote for what its worth. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 08:39:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17322 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17296; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708261537.LAA24177@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:41:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <199708261433.HAA13625@hub.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Peter Korsten wrote: > > > > Perhaps I can spend a week and look for all kinds of tools that > > have some, the same, or even more functionality than VC++, but in > > my case, it's cheaper to buy VC++. And it comes with manuals and > > a great online help, instead of some info files nobody but Gnu > > uses. > > > > But well, this is only from my personal experience from a FreeBSD > > system and a Windows NT 4.0 system two metres apart. > > > > Of course, I find MS's marketing strategy - either buying or crushing > > the competition in about _every_ field in computing - disturbing, to > > say the least. But they do make decent software. Maybe not all of it, > > but much of it. > > i am surprised by this, a friend of mine here, recently had to > learn C. the course dictated the use of VC++. he went thru > hell getting VC++ to do what he wanted. i showed him how i > would do it in xemacs/gcc (i am NOT xemacs skilled much less > a wizard). he wanted to know why he had to use VC++! > > one ancedote for what its worth. > jmb > Especially considering c++ is not c. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 09:25:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19207 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19189 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp8.monmouth.com [205.164.221.40]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA13601; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id MAA00502 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:24:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199708261624.MAA00502@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: FreeBSD on low end boxes In-Reply-To: <9708261442.AA133031@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu" at "Aug 26, 97 10:42:24 am" To: rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Some of > > us even have older, slower hardware than the core team. ;^) (This > > message is being chiseled into the electrons on a 486/66, for instance.) > > Well, this dummy's boxes are half a dozen lowendian 386/486 junkers, and > I really can't complain, at all, since 2.1.7.1/2.2.x/3.0.x is up and > running fine on all of them. What I was after was a rock stable unchanging > system for the home boxes (2.1.7.1 is fine there), a good carefree system > for the office boxes (2.2-RELENG is fine there) and one 3.0 play box > (current is fine there). Your detailed explanation helped immensely. > What was confusing me was what the 2.2 stable actually was. > > > (Yes, this is a mild slam directed at Linux, the various SVR4 PC > > platforms, and especially SCO.) > > I run aix/minix/linux/FreeBSd, and support your slam, although there > is one source that I can compile fine on suns/aix/linux but it blows up > every gcc on every version of FreeBSD (runs fine on gcc on the sun and the > linux box, tho). I am still scratching my head on that one. Krazy parsing > error with no evident code anomalies. Wierd. I've got AIX, Linux and FreeBSD as well, the Linux use is mostly because FreeBSD doesn't run on token ring... My old play box is a 386/25 going to a 486/66 -- since the 386 is going to be a print server. My stuff ranges from 386sx to AMD 586/133 (basically an upgraded 486/33). I'm amazed how much more stable the BSD is than a number of commercial Unix boxes I ran a couple of years ago... (SunOS4.1.3, Solaris 2.3, HPUX9.0.x). While Linux seems faster when run single user on low end boxes, FreeBSD seems more solid there. (However, Linux used to run on more old, low-end disk controllers.) A friend of mine is going to FreeBSD after Linux stopped working with his Mitsumi double speed CDROM... FreeBSD worked just fine with it. Bill From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 09:38:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20245 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu (csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20239 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:38:37 -0700 (PDT) From: rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: by csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu (5.61-AIX-1.2/1.0) id AA133423 (for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, from rdkeys/rdkeys); Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:56:27 -0400 Received: by csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu (5.61-AIX-1.2/1.0) id AA133414 (for rdkeys, from rdkeys/rdkeys); Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:55:53 -0400 Message-Id: <9708261555.AA133414@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Suggestions from a unix dummy..... To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu () In-Reply-To: <199708261409.KAA23704@gatekeeper.itribe.net> from "Jamie Bowden" at Aug 26, 97 10:13:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > > > > > Officially ports are only supported on -stable. This is to keep > > > > the amount of work manageable. However, if you find a port that > > > > doesn't work on -current or any other release (PROVIDED you are > > > > using an up-to-date bsd.port.mk and friends), you are encouraged > > > > to send patches in a pr. > > > > > > This is wrong, IMHO. Ports should build on the latest official release. > > > > > > Jamie Bowden > > > > From the philosophical point of view, why is it not acceptable that > ports > > should make on ANY FreeBSD box? Assuming that one starts from fresh > > archive sources (and it seems to this unix dummy that they do) unless one > > has more than trivial patches, a make is a make is a make. I have ported > > a lot of minor things to my boxes (aix/minix/linux/FreeBSD). Aside from the > > quirks of my early aix 1.2 and my minix not being ``GCC compliant'', I find > > that essentially everything makes out of the box on all the machines. > > Porting is not that difficult anymore (99% of the time). Most sources make > > out of the box with any sort of half-intelligent configure script. That > > would make me still think a common ports tree across all FreeBSD platforms > > would be an ideal goal, and not that difficult to attain. Then, again, I > > am just the unix dummy..... > > > > Bob Keys > > rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu > > > > There are significant changes from 1.x to 2.x, and from 2.1.x to 2.2.x. I > am sure there are significant differences as well from 2.2.x to what will > be 3.x > > Jamie Bowden > > System Administrator, iTRiBE.net But how should that have any affect on ports. Ports are not part of the OS but are brought in from external sources. A well-made port should make on any standard unix box. FreeBSD is not that unstandard. The ports mechanism should only be a convenience overlayer on the normal external sources. If not, then the way ports are made on FreeBSD might need some rethinking. I can bring in GCC, 2.7.2.2 for example and install it on the 3.0 snap, the 2.2.x boxes and the 2.1.7.1 boxes and they all install fine, no patches, no hacks, just a proper configure, make, make install. I did the same thing with TeX and Groff and everything else that I consider ``sacred'' sources for graphics applications, programming, and other things that I need to do. I can't see any sane reason that a TeX port on 2.1.7.1, 2.0.5, 1.x or 3.0 should not do exactly the same thing for all versions of the OS. If any OS particular revision level patches are required (and they should only be rare on FreeBSD), the ports build should be sufficiently aware of the OS revision level to take that into consideration. Still thinking, wishfully..... Bob Keys From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 11:19:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27518 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mph124.rh.psu.edu (hunt@MPH124.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27508 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hunt@localhost) by mph124.rh.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10824; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970826141925.32712@mph124.rh.psu.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:19:25 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestions from a unix dummy..... Reply-To: Matthew Hunt References: <199708261409.KAA23704@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <9708261555.AA133414@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: <9708261555.AA133414@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu on Tue, Aug 26, 1997 at 11:55:50AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Aug 26, 1997 at 11:55:50AM -0400, rdkeys@csemail.cropsci.ncsu.edu wrote: > thing for all versions of the OS. If any OS particular revision level > patches are required (and they should only be rare on FreeBSD), the > ports build should be sufficiently aware of the OS revision level to > take that into consideration. > > Still thinking, wishfully..... It is always easier to say how things should be than it is to make them that way. I have created a handful of ports. I made all of them on my 2.2-STABLE machine. I do not own a 3.0-CURRENT machine, or a 2.1-STABLE machine, or any other FreeBSD machine at all. I do not even have an account on a FreeBSD machine that is not some flavor of 2.2. Therefore, I cannot know for certain that my ports build on any other branch. Realistically, all of my ports are simple and I expect that they do build, but I do not know for certain. So, if I want to port something, who is responsible for providing me with a 1.x, 2.1, and 3.0-CURRENT machine to test on? What if I don't want to devote the time to building the port on those platforms? Should I not submit the port at all? Or is somebody at freebsd.org supposed to do that work? IIRC the discussion on -ports a couple of weeks ago, the problem is that such time is not available. I think everyone agrees that ports *should* build on as many versions as possible. But which volunteers should be volunteered to do the work, and who provides the resources? -- Matthew Hunt * Think locally, act globally. finger hunt@mph124.rh.psu.edu for PGP public key. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 12:26:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01719 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01694 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA03905; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:11:43 -0400 Message-ID: <340348BE.66EC@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:21:02 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708261537.LAA24177@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamie Bowden wrote: > > Especially considering c++ is not c. > Hmmm...if you try to program in C++ without C, just say "Java" ;-) Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 14:27:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09103 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09090 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA02555 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:27:12 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id XAA22910 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:26:47 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.6/keltia-uucp-2.9) id TAA25411; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:16:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970826191602.12875@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:16:02 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet References: <19970824213643.28993@keltia.freenix.fr> <199708260953.MAA15608@shadows.aeon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199708260953.MAA15608@shadows.aeon.net>; from mika ruohotie on Tue, Aug 26, 1997 at 12:53:02PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3586 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to mika ruohotie: [UUnet UDP] > it's still going? on what level is it? It has been stopped a while ago. It was for 5 days. UUnet was apparently very shaken and they said they'd take measures. We're still waiting... > all news via uu.net or all news from dialups? All news originated from UUnet, not what went through. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #24: Fri Aug 22 23:13:44 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 15:06:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11290 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11274 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 29625 on Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:06:05 GMT; id WAA29625 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA01221; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:21:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970826232140.15125@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:21:40 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708261433.HAA13625@hub.freebsd.org> <199708261537.LAA24177@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <199708261537.LAA24177@gatekeeper.itribe.net>; from Jamie Bowden on Tue, Aug 26, 1997 at 11:41:44AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamie Bowden shared with us: > On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > i am surprised by this, a friend of mine here, recently had to > > learn C. the course dictated the use of VC++. he went thru > > hell getting VC++ to do what he wanted. i showed him how i > > would do it in xemacs/gcc (i am NOT xemacs skilled much less > > a wizard). he wanted to know why he had to use VC++! > > > > one ancedote for what its worth. > > Especially considering c++ is not c. I don't see the problem. VC++ distinguishes between C and C++. If you don't use C++, you get C-style linking. If you mix the two, you have to place something like #if defined( __cplusplus ) extern "C" { #endif in your code - but that's really the standard way of doing things. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 15:06:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11321 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11300 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 29663 on Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:06:10 GMT; id WAA29663 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA01309; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:55:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:55:25 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Tue, Aug 26, 1997 at 08:30:51AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch shared with us: > As Peter Korsten wrote: > > [Visual C++, Makefiles, etc.] > > Of course, this is all my very personal opinion, but i'm sure quite a > number of people feel the same. This might explain to the VC++ etc. > users why there is so little `resonance' to IDE projects in a Unix > world. Once you got used to the Unix way, you don't miss the Visual > stuff. (Once you would be forced to return to that Visual stuff, > after you've been used to the Unix way, i'm sure i would *hate* it.) There are some pro's and con's to the Visual approach. One appearant disadvantage is the price (well, try to beat "no cost") and the fact that it consumes vast resources (250 Mb NT 4.0 server, 250 Mb VC++ and with 250 Mb Office 97 and 250 Mb SQL Server that's one disk down). The fact that I like windows, mice, pop-ups, buttons and the like perhaps lies in my Amiga background. (That's the only machine I know that had a perfect sybiosis between GUI, Shell and AREXX, BTW) All programs look the same; the learning curve is steeper than with a text-oriented environment. I've never read a manual for NT, Word or VC++. Just the incidental help file. Of course I can use a Makefile for anything. With proper configu- ration, you might even get sendmail to do the job. I find the flexibility that Unix offers with it's pretty free-format confi- guration files rather a disadvantage. You have to look up what all the options are in a different location (a man page or an info file) and then add the lot in your Makefile, /etc/inetd.conf or .blahrc. For the project I was talking about, I've made a clever (though rather simple) Makefile, that takes the input files (I saw no way to take all .c files with the standard - not Gnu - make) and creates the names of the .o files out of it. It also does something with Yacc. In VC++, I just add all the .c files into my project. I can create a browser info file and jump to the point in any source file where an identifier is declared or used. Without having read a manual. The real mess begins, when you want to program a Windows application or use the Microsoft Foundation Classes. But I doubt that programming an X-application is much simpler. If I forget the various disadvantages of Windows (NT) (try to protect a single directory in IIS with a password, hah), the most appealing aspect I find the uniformity and the integration. This is something I miss in Unix. X is an improvement over the text interface that preceded it, but it misses the integration, like a uniform interface and drag-and-drop. At the moment, Unix is more suited for large networks than NT is (which among other things has got to do with those stupid licenses). But I think a lot of potential customers like the same things as I do in a system. So the developers may like a text interface, many people don't. And apart from all the marketing hype MS is creating, that's something to be considered - though very hard to solve. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 17:28:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20078 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19783 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem06.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.36]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA04414; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:23:01 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <34038E30.6659@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:17:20 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Korsten CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten wrote: > > > There are some pro's and con's to the Visual approach. > The Visual approach has nothing to do with M$ VC++; understand this MS VC++ is NOT a visual language; several real visual languages (most referenced in Yahoo) will feel offended if you use the term "Visual approach to describe VC++. Call it M$ approach instead > > The real mess begins, when you want to program a Windows application > or use the Microsoft Foundation Classes. But I doubt that programming > an X-application is much simpler. > X is much simpler as stated with a Visual C++ book from M$ press I used for my project. > If I forget the various disadvantages of Windows (NT) (try to > protect a single directory in IIS with a password, hah), the most > appealing aspect I find the uniformity and the integration. This > is something I miss in Unix. X is an improvement over the text > interface that preceded it, but it misses the integration, like a > uniform interface and drag-and-drop. > I hate uniformity, the creative mind usually won't stand the same GUI over and over again (still don't understand what's so cool in fvwm95). I love to log into the AIX box (it has a cool monitor) and log into the FreeBSD box to run bazillion X apps that don't run on AIX. This pleasures aren't posible with NT. I only use M$ stuff because I'm forced to...some teachers have clear "standards" of what technology is :-(. Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 26 23:25:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12805 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12800 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA24139 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:21:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Marilyn Rules Again Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk U.S. District Judge Marilyn Hall Patel ruled that the Clinton administration's new rules on licensing and exporting encryption products are also unconstitutional, because they violate free speech; also apparently because they set no timetables or standards for the government's licensing decision and don't provide for judicial review. This one was pretty narrow, though, and prohibits enforcement only against Daniel Bernstein. She refused to issue a nationwide injunction, according to the AP story. I like this ruling but doubt that it will hold up on appeal....is publishing source code really an exercise in free speech? Well, maybe it is. If enforcement is prohibited only against Bernstein, what happens to a release of FreeBSD that includes DES? Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 00:51:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17543 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA17537 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA10511 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:51:51 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA08681; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:33:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:33:36 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl>; from Peter Korsten on Aug 26, 1997 23:55:25 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter Korsten wrote: > The fact that I like windows, mice, pop-ups, buttons and the like > perhaps lies in my Amiga background. Since the advent of useable graphics adapters, i like windows much myself. I couldn't imagine the daily Unix work without X11 anymore, and i'm fighting hacky approaches like `svgalib' (in particular, those people who think that they need to use it) for these reasons: why the h*ck do they wanna force me to turn X11 off for their lousy application? > I find the > flexibility that Unix offers with it's pretty free-format confi- > guration files rather a disadvantage. Well, and that's the difference. Once you know the very basics of each, you also start to value the flexibility. I could also say i hate LISP since writing my applix-mode.el took me three or four hours, and i had to lookup almost every LISP primitive in the manual!? :-) But then, which language can you really learn within three or four hours? It was possible, it didn't make me a LISP wizard, but it offered me the ability to get done what i wanted to get done (a certain form of formatting required for an ApplixWord document, mostly the line breaks in a fairly strict and backslashified form as Applix did expect them). I don't believe any MS-Win editor (not counting a Windows port of Emacs, of course :) would have allowed me to get this done at all, simply since their developers didn't take into account that someone else might have such a weird request at some time. (Even worse, Windows apps tend to ship their own editor each, which is usually much inferior. Think of regular expression search and replace, something i have yet to see any replacement for. I don't appreciate regexp's being write-only, but i simply haven't seen anything else that would offer at least 50 % of their power at a less cryptic syntax.) > For the project I was talking about, I've made a clever (though > rather simple) Makefile, that takes the input files (I saw no way > to take all .c files with the standard - not Gnu - make) and creates > the names of the .o files out of it. It also does something with > Yacc. > > In VC++, I just add all the .c files into my project. So, why didn't you do: SRCS= foo.c bar.c mumble.c grammar.y lexer.l OBJS= $(SRCS:S/.c/.o/) PROG= myprog $(PROG): $(OBJS) $(CC) -o $(PROG) $(OBJS) That's basically all that's needed in your case. I fail to see why this is much more complicated, except of the OBJS deference rule -- which i had to lookup in the man page, but which you can also express manually like: OBJS= foo.o bar.o mumble.o grammar.o lexer.o make(1) has a fairly complex set of pre-defined rules, like the knowledge how to compile a .o file from a .y or .l file. So far, so good. Now consider that you've got a GIF image that should be included as a (for example) X11 bitmap. How do you do this in VC++? Here's the solution for make(1): .SUFFIXES: .gif .xbm .gif.xbm: giftopnm ${.IMPSRC} | ppmtopgm | pgmtopbm | pbmtoxbm > ${.TARGET} foo.o: foo.c myimage.xbm ...assuming that your foo.c has something like #include "myimage.xbm" (The dependency for foo.o could even be derived by `makedepend'.) With the above four additional lines, every time you edit myimage.gif, it will be re-computed, and cause a recompilation of foo.o and myprog. (I've used ${.IMPSRC} and ${.TARGET} since they are easier to memorize than the historic names you gotta use with SysV's make(1). Yes, there's some legacy around in Unix, but wonder how much legacy will be around after 25 years of Windows? :) > The real mess begins, when you want to program a Windows application > or use the Microsoft Foundation Classes. But I doubt that programming > an X-application is much simpler. That depends. If you're going to program Xlib, maybe. But that's usually only something you're doing as a homework in an X11 programming course, or something to program a new widget for a toolkit. > X is an improvement over the text > interface that preceded it, but it misses the integration, like a > uniform interface and drag-and-drop. You can get a uniform interface (CDE). I hate it, and every time i had to work with this interface, i had to search everything. Does your (wooden) desktop really look like your neighbour's? No? If so, why are people proud that their electronical desktop looks like their neighbour's? People have different personalities, so why aren't they allowed to have different preferences (and *not* just only expressed by a differently ugly-looking set of colors)? We aren't at the army here. I usually can also work at my colleague's X11 desktop, but i don't prefer doing it, since he's developed a totally different layout which fits him better. He hates working at my machine since he doesn't even find the German umlaut keys -- my keyboard mapping is fairly different, since i prefer it being this way. I think i would have a hard time to tell MS-Win about my keyboard mapping preferences. (I once convinced MS-DOS of it, by writing an entire keyboard interpretation layer. Ugh. In X11, i just define a piece of metacode for the xkb map.) > So the developers may like a text interface, many people don't. Developers like graphical interfaces as well. I much love X11's simple cut&paste functionality, something i always found terrible to use in other environments. (Note that X11 also provides for the semantics for e.g. image cut&paste, yet only very few applications use it. That is sad. Even offering multiple choices for the selection is supported, so the target application could select either image or text, whatever fits better.) I prefer a graphical layout editor (like xf) when designing a graphical application. But i wouldn't the heck use a horri^H^H^H^H^Hsimplified text widget, and call it `editor', in order to fill in the application's ``meat''. Once the layout is ready, i'm simply using the editor of my choice again to write the procedures behind the graphical surface. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 02:20:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA22141 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA22136 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (buckpalace [206.173.119.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/08/22 5.5)) id FAA25088; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:20:38 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (cnc143045.concentric.net [206.173.207.45]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.7) id FAA05773; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3403BEF0.ED9@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:45:20 -0800 From: mlduke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-GZone (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Newbe Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can anyone point to more information I can read on HD configurations? WD0=1049C, 16H, 63S and contains W95 because GVWin (Viewpoint/Document Editor "enhanced") runs on it and contains data files back to 1990. WD2(Western Digital no pun)=7752C, 16H, 63S and is totally Free (pun). FreeBSD loads with several of many attempted configurations, geometry mismatch "?" following "f1" default happens every time. [Novice and Expert attempts alike.] Looking forward to dropping MS forever (like between 1986 and 1995). If this doesn't work I'll try a book off the shelf. Suggestion if there are other no-nothing newbe's like myself who have only lurked on computer related topics. Try a few installations. Some of the language then actually begins to make sense. ML Duke From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 07:46:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07242 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07232 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (ksmm@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA02214 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970827104431.0097ce70@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:44:31 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.org From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:55 PM 8/26/97 +0200, you wrote: >J Wunsch shared with us: >> As Peter Korsten wrote: >> >> [Visual C++, Makefiles, etc.] >> >> Of course, this is all my very personal opinion, but i'm sure quite a >> number of people feel the same. This might explain to the VC++ etc. >> users why there is so little `resonance' to IDE projects in a Unix >> world. Once you got used to the Unix way, you don't miss the Visual >> stuff. (Once you would be forced to return to that Visual stuff, >> after you've been used to the Unix way, i'm sure i would *hate* it.) > > [snip, snip] > >So the developers may like a text interface, many people don't. >And apart from all the marketing hype MS is creating, that's >something to be considered - though very hard to solve. What I've noticed is that the GUI environments tend to have easier learning curves, but that in the long run, command lines with terse commands and options tend to be more efficient for the experienced user. A good, simple example of this is trying to copy groups of files with a graphical file manager or a prompt. Finding out the options to recurse subdirectories and observe time modification stamps would probably take longer than dragging and dropping, but once you had the knowledge in your head, typing the command probably takes less time than all the clicking and dragging involved in the GUI approach. The mistake is in thinking that the two are mutually exclusive. Of course, this tends to create an attitude among very skilled programmers that you can't accomplish to much with a mouse; command lines are the only way to do *real* work. ("Why, back in my day, we didn't have no mamby-pamby pointers and icons. Just ones and zeroes...") Unfortunately, those most in need of a GUI interface (like me) don't have the skill to create one, and those who do believe that anybody serious about their craft doesn't need one. On a slightly related note, there also seems to be a lot of Microsoft player hating among UNIX-heads. Granted, there's not a lot of cutting edge technology coming out of Redmond, but MS has mastered a technique that most highly skilled programmers and shops are too proud to use--taking someone else's good idea, combining it with their great marketing, and taking ownership of the market. Rather than hating MS for bastardizing the technology, I say that we take whatever good concepts from them that we can and integrate it into out products. Use their own strategy against them. Of course, a few mil in the bank wouldn't hurt, but we'll just do what we can. :-) My two bits, K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 10:41:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18166 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p60.global2000.net (root@315-dialup-13.global2000.net [208.133.142.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18155 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199708150115.UAA01297@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Griff Enterprises From: "Eric A. Griff" To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Burning CDs Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 15-Aug-97 dkelly@hiwaay.net spewed out Re: Burning CDs>(moved to chat) > >Udo Wolter writes: >> >> > > 2) How to burn a Mixed-Mode CD ? >> > >> > Not sure ... haven't done this .. YET ... (making some more Frisbees :) ) >> >> I use the crunched ones for saving my table: I put my glass onto it... >> (I don't know the english word. In german it would be "Untersetzer" or >> "Bierdeckel") > >We call them "coasters" in American, at least that's what my mother calls >them. Don't know why, it doesn't make much sense to me. > >Happen to have a couple AOL CD's at work that I use to sit hot coffee cups >on. A gulible person once asked about that, I explained the shiny aluminum >layer in the CD was a space age reflective insulator... > >Actually it simply tickled my fancy to use an AOL disk that way (haven't >been to the shooting range lately, they frown on shooting anything but >their paper targets). Am now looking for a Windows NT CDROM... :-) > >-- >David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net >===================================================================== >The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its >capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. I don't feel so different anymore :) I use aol and prodigy disks for dog toys :) . I have a couple large dogs, that like to come into my office fighting for attention (extremely distracting) once in a while. When they do, I grab one off a small stack of them, go out to the front door (they follow still fighting (moderatly)) and fling it as far as I can. They take off. It occupies them for a while, and when they come back in, they're too tired to continue :) . I must commend AOL and prodigy on jointly being sure there is an addequate supply. Gus and Cookie are greatful too (The dogs). ---------------------------------------------- Eric A. Griff RD#1 Box 372 Oneida, NY 13421 Phone: (315) 495-2385 USA From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 11:14:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24533 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24527 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA01749; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:13:48 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:13:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199708271813.UAA01749@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: j@uriah.heep.sax.de's message of Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:33:36 +0200 Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As Peter Korsten wrote: > > > The fact that I like windows, mice, pop-ups, buttons and the like > > perhaps lies in my Amiga background. > > Since the advent of useable graphics adapters, i like windows much > myself. I couldn't imagine the daily Unix work without X11 anymore, > and i'm fighting hacky approaches like `svgalib' (in particular, those > people who think that they need to use it) for these reasons: why the > h*ck do they wanna force me to turn X11 off for their lousy > application? > > > I find the > > flexibility that Unix offers with it's pretty free-format confi- > > guration files rather a disadvantage. > > Well, and that's the difference. Once you know the very basics of > each, you also start to value the flexibility. I could also say i > hate LISP since writing my applix-mode.el took me three or four hours, > and i had to lookup almost every LISP primitive in the manual!? :-) > But then, which language can you really learn within three or four > hours? It was possible, it didn't make me a LISP wizard, but it > offered me the ability to get done what i wanted to get done (a > certain form of formatting required for an ApplixWord document, mostly > the line breaks in a fairly strict and backslashified form as Applix > did expect them). I don't believe any MS-Win editor (not counting a > Windows port of Emacs, of course :) would have allowed me to get this > done at all, simply since their developers didn't take into account > that someone else might have such a weird request at some time. Eh - you could do that in LISP or C[1] in BRIEF[3], in Lisp in Epsilon, in C[2] in CodeWright, and in some other editor extension languages. Emacs isn't the only editor written as an extension langauge with a default setup anymore. It still has a powerful set of macros already written; but it is possible in many other editors. [1] "C" - this is their LISP hacked up in C-syntax. A bad idea IMHO, but at some point the LISP/C balance tipped. [2] Normal C - DLLs with an API to extend the editor. Usually more work than with a dedicated extension language, but extremely flexible - you can do absolutely anything with the editor. [3] I don't know if BRIEF has been ported to Windows yet, or has been left to rot in DOS. Extremely nice, though - works with multi-gigabytes files easily, as opposed to Emacs. Lacks a good set of modes and colours, though. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 12:01:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28039 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28011 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA23221 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:34:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:34:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Scary lawsuit Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Novadigm sues Marimba and threatens W3C. http://www.novadigm.com/aB5.htm The key point, extracted from the above web page, is over a patent: Novadigm's Patent (Number 5,581,764) "Distributed Computer Network Including Hierarchical Resource Information Structure and Related Method of Distributing Resources" describes the processes needed to generate from a common reference model a unique content configuration for each target end user, and to "difference" the "desired state" configuration with the actual-state of the target, yielding highly granular and very specific updates to distributed content automatically. That about describes a fairly long extensive of software including rdist, sup, cvsup, rsync, ctm and on unix, as well as similar freely available programs on other platforms. I'm no lawyer, is it permissable to get a patent on a technology that has been in the public domain? I would hope not. The above patent was issued in December 1996. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 12:18:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29316 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29306 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA03987; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:18:41 -0700 (PDT) To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:44:31 EDT." <3.0.3.32.19970827104431.0097ce70@cybercom.net> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:18:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3983.872709521@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ownership of the market. Rather than hating MS for bastardizing the > technology, I say that we take whatever good concepts from them that we can > and integrate it into out products. Use their own strategy against them. This is very easy to say. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 12:21:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29595 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.buffalostate.edu (hummel@www.buffalostate.edu [136.183.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29580 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hummel@localhost) by www.buffalostate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA31239; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:21:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:21:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Hummel To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970827104431.0097ce70@cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I can't speak for anyone else, but my own personal distaste stems not from their borrowing technology from others (that's the whole idea of FSF and free software in general), or for having crappy products (I don't HAVE to use them). My main problem with Microsoft is that they put marketing above quality and bully small companies into submission with the wealth they got through luck (DOS) and aggressive marketing (95 and NT). The simple fact is that monopolies are not conducive to quality, so whether a person likes Microsoft or not he/she should be against a market dominated by them (or any other corporation, although some are perhaps less evil than others). On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > player hating among UNIX-heads. Granted, there's not a lot of cutting edge > technology coming out of Redmond, but MS has mastered a technique that most > highly skilled programmers and shops are too proud to use--taking someone > else's good idea, combining it with their great marketing, and taking > ownership of the market. Rather than hating MS for bastardizing the > technology, I say that we take whatever good concepts from them that we can > and integrate it into out products. Use their own strategy against them. > Of course, a few mil in the bank wouldn't hurt, but we'll just do what we > can. :-) > > My two bits, > K.S. > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 12:42:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00888 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00882 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05098; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:54:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199708271854.OAA05098@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Scary lawsuit In-Reply-To: from John Fieber at "Aug 27, 97 01:34:41 pm" To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Novadigm sues Marimba and threatens W3C. > That about describes a fairly long extensive of software > including rdist, sup, cvsup, rsync, ctm and on unix, as well as > similar freely available programs on other platforms. > > I'm no lawyer, is it permissable to get a patent on a technology > that has been in the public domain? I would hope not. The above > patent was issued in December 1996. Yes. You have to demonstrate available prior art before the date of the filing or show that it is obvious to anyone in the field and not patentable. We had some "find ." scripts 10 years back that would build tarballs and update source at clients. I expect somebody had some well known clever distribution setups in the early 1980s over uucp. When the patent is issued is manipulatable. Companies develop "stealth patents" and drag out the patent process for years (even decades) by filing addenda and then get the patent when the process is in use. There was an article about this in WSJ a few months back - (warning foggy memory here) someone was going after GM for machine vision violations when the original filing was in the late '50s. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 13:00:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02408 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02395 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem01.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.31]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA06022 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:00:01 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <34039989.2770@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:05:45 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... References: <199708242230.PAA13822@merchant.tns.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here is an alternative view to the M$ problem seen by the former Autodesk president: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/msapogee.html in particular I enjoyed: _____________ When I look at Microsoft's current product line (which I avoid doing as much as possible, I must confess), the problem is not that it lacks features--God, most of it has way too many features for its own good, and I suspect 90% of the users never discover nor use a majority of them--but that it is bug-infested junk. What users need is not ActiveXYZ, the NanoGenetic TransSpecies API, etc., etc., endless etc. but software which works properly and does not crash. Jamming 1.5 megabytes of roach-motel USER and GDI code into the kernel of NT 4.0 to "improve performance" shows Microsoft lack the basic competence and/or willingness to provide a reliable operating system. And that has been a solved problem since the 1960's. Now they're going to sell us a global distributed component model secure multi-platform multi-media object oriented operating system. Right. ______________ enjoy, Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 13:59:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06229 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06215 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA26732; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:33:46 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:33:45 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: John Fieber , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scary lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am no lawyer and neither am I in the US. On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, John Fieber wrote: > Novadigm sues Marimba and threatens W3C. > > http://www.novadigm.com/aB5.htm > > The key point, extracted from the above web page, is over a > patent: > > Novadigm's Patent (Number 5,581,764) "Distributed Computer > Network Including Hierarchical Resource Information Structure > and Related Method of Distributing Resources" describes the > processes needed to generate from a common reference model a > unique content configuration for each target end user, and to > "difference" the "desired state" configuration with the > actual-state of the target, yielding highly granular and very > specific updates to distributed content automatically. > Why are they threating W3C? Web sure is not and does not use such things. > That about describes a fairly long extensive of software > including rdist, sup, cvsup, rsync, ctm and on unix, as well as > similar freely available programs on other platforms. > > I'm no lawyer, is it permissable to get a patent on a technology > that has been in the public domain? I would hope not. The above > patent was issued in December 1996. > I don't think they should have a patent like that at all. If I am not wrong you would have to be the author/owner of the thing you patent? I mean could I get a patent on: "Walking, a way for two-legged creatures for moving step-by-step" "Patenting, a process by which persons or organisation can register their novel ideas and inventions and licence these to others" "Jury, an institution for making decisions based on existing laws..." The american patent laws are strange. Still, you should not be able to get such patents. Neither should Novadigm. Next someone will patent the computer mouse, the printer, the CPU, etc. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > -john > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 14:02:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06436 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06430 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA23675; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:01:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:01:39 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Narvi cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Scary lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Narvi wrote: > Why are they threating W3C? Web sure is not and does not use such things. W3C is proposing an extension to HTTP in support of replicating data, i.e. web sites much like the FreeBSD mirrors are replicated using rsync. > If I am not wrong you would have to be the author/owner of the thing you > patent? Yes, but how hard is it to convince the patent office that you are the original author? Original authorship is not something that can be proved absolutely, it can only be positively disproved. If the patent stands, they could potentially demand royalties for things like cvsup. Yech! -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 14:20:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08253 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08222 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp1.monmouth.com [205.164.221.33]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19871; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id RAA01703 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:19:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199708272119.RAA01703@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: ? power outages and file system corruption In-Reply-To: from Simon Shapiro at "Aug 27, 97 11:16:33 am" To: Shimon@i-Connect.Net (Simon Shapiro) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:19:50 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Hi Bill Pechter; On 27-Aug-97 you wrote: > > > Would maybe. System V rlelease from the Labs did not. Niether did BSD, or > we will have this code in FreeBSD. No? The problem is most PC's have no battery backup or memory control register that shows the batteries had failed. VAX hardware would init memory if the register showed that memory was just powered up. It the memory was ok and still valid it would pull a restart vector off the stack and run... The issue is hardware. I've seen Unix systems from three vendors (Including AT&T and BSD based stuff) do this. (Didn't Ultrix do this... SVR0 from AT&T used to be able to handle this -- I know their later boxes did). (moved to -chat since this isn't FreeBSD specific) Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 14:22:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08341 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08332 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA23716; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:22:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:22:14 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Peter Dufault cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scary lawsuit In-Reply-To: <199708271854.OAA05098@hda.hda.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Peter Dufault wrote: > When the patent is issued is manipulatable. Companies develop > "stealth patents" and drag out the patent process for years (even > decades) by filing addenda and then get the patent when the process > is in use. It was filed May 2, 1994 but there is a reference that it is partly a continuation of an earlier abandoned patent application filed April 30, 1993. See http://www.uspto.gov/ for details, search for patent number 5,581,764. rdist claims to originate in 4.3BSD, which beats either date by a healthy margin. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 15:44:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15063 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14992 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 25518 on Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:43:37 GMT; id WAA25518 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00779; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:25:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:25:32 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Wed, Aug 27, 1997 at 09:33:36AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch shared with us: > As Peter Korsten wrote: > > > I find the > > flexibility that Unix offers with it's pretty free-format confi- > > guration files rather a disadvantage. > > Well, and that's the difference. Once you know the very basics of > each, you also start to value the flexibility. I could also say i > hate LISP since writing my applix-mode.el took me three or four hours, > and i had to lookup almost every LISP primitive in the manual!? :-) > But then, which language can you really learn within three or four > hours? It was possible, it didn't make me a LISP wizard, but it > offered me the ability to get done what i wanted to get done (a > certain form of formatting required for an ApplixWord document, mostly > the line breaks in a fairly strict and backslashified form as Applix > did expect them). I don't believe any MS-Win editor (not counting a > Windows port of Emacs, of course :) would have allowed me to get this > done at all, simply since their developers didn't take into account > that someone else might have such a weird request at some time. (Even > worse, Windows apps tend to ship their own editor each, which is > usually much inferior. Think of regular expression search and > replace, something i have yet to see any replacement for. I don't > appreciate regexp's being write-only, but i simply haven't seen > anything else that would offer at least 50 % of their power at a less > cryptic syntax.) (No, I can't cut into the above.) Perhaps you shouldn't take a certain application as your starting point and say "I miss some options, I want to build them myself" but start from a different application. _Many_ people use MS Word. Not that it's the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel, but it does have many options (and even a programming language that's powerful enough to write a virus in :) ). > > For the project I was talking about, I've made a clever (though > > rather simple) Makefile, that takes the input files (I saw no way > > to take all .c files with the standard - not Gnu - make) and creates > > the names of the .o files out of it. It also does something with > > Yacc. > > > > In VC++, I just add all the .c files into my project. > > So, why didn't you do: > > SRCS= foo.c bar.c mumble.c grammar.y lexer.l > OBJS= $(SRCS:S/.c/.o/) > > [rest of Makefile removed] Er, that's actually what I did. :) I put the objects files in a '.for' loop. I wanted something like '*.c' but it wouldn't work. > That's basically all that's needed in your case. I fail to see why > this is much more complicated, except of the OBJS deference rule -- > which i had to lookup in the man page, but which you can also express > manually like: > > OBJS= foo.o bar.o mumble.o grammar.o lexer.o It's not really more complicated, it's more work. I have to make a seperate Makefile (with the chance of errors) and edit that when I add a file to my project. > make(1) has a fairly complex set of pre-defined rules, like the > knowledge how to compile a .o file from a .y or .l file. So far, so > good. Now consider that you've got a GIF image that should be > included as a (for example) X11 bitmap. How do you do this in VC++? I insert a bitmap object, I suppose. A menu brings up a select box with graphical representations of objects you can insert. > Here's the solution for make(1): > > [example deleted] > > With the above four additional lines, every time you edit myimage.gif, > it will be re-computed, and cause a recompilation of foo.o and myprog. > (I've used ${.IMPSRC} and ${.TARGET} since they are easier to memorize > than the historic names you gotta use with SysV's make(1). Yes, > there's some legacy around in Unix, but wonder how much legacy will be > around after 25 years of Windows? :) Hmm, I used them as well. I might get back to the old, awkward $@ style if it fails on other Unixes with other makes. > > X is an improvement over the text > > interface that preceded it, but it misses the integration, like a > > uniform interface and drag-and-drop. > > You can get a uniform interface (CDE). I hate it, and every time i > had to work with this interface, i had to search everything. Does > your (wooden) desktop really look like your neighbour's? No? If so, > why are people proud that their electronical desktop looks like their > neighbour's? People have different personalities, so why aren't they > allowed to have different preferences (and *not* just only expressed > by a differently ugly-looking set of colors)? We aren't at the army > here. I usually can also work at my colleague's X11 desktop, but i > don't prefer doing it, since he's developed a totally different layout > which fits him better. He hates working at my machine since he > doesn't even find the German umlaut keys -- my keyboard mapping is > fairly different, since i prefer it being this way. I think i would > have a hard time to tell MS-Win about my keyboard mapping preferences. > (I once convinced MS-DOS of it, by writing an entire keyboard > interpretation layer. Ugh. In X11, i just define a piece of metacode > for the xkb map.) Why did you write your own keybaord mapping? Wasn't there a suitable mapping available? There certainly is a German keyboard mapping for Windows. Perhaps not the mapping you use, but I don't know whether you were dicontent with the mapping offered or that no mapping was available at all. Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the office. (For the insiders: color scheme Rainy Day, background Blue Monday, automatically hiding taskbar on top, small icons, and shortcuts to all drives on my desktop, together with Netscape and the mandatory icons.) My user interface with X looks _exactly_ the same. Actually, this is pretty funny. The difference is the 'FreeBSD' bar with the daemon in my Start-menu. :) (Plus the layout of said menu, plus the dock with some buttons.) Of course, it's easier to adapt FVWM'95 to Windows than vice versa. But the fact that you can control every action associated with a mouse move or drag, according to where the pointer is, isn't an advantage. The more options, the more difficult it is to learn _and_ to put it in a GUI. Isn't it a bit strange that the configuration of most X-applications is done in a text file? But the point I was making was not that the screen should look the same on every system, but that applications should be build and respond in the same way. First the File menu, with New, Open, Save, Save as, Print, and Quit. Then the Edit menu, etc. If you exit the program, it should point out if there's unsaved data. If there isn't, it should remain quiet (not the dreaded 'Are you sure?' box). Every decent program on Windows, Mac, or Amiga works this way. If someone thinks every program should have it's own user interface, he's nuts. 'Lightwave 3D' from Newtek is such an example. They had some totally non-standard GUI on the Amiga and _still_ have it on Windows. And yet, this is the situation in Unix and X. The '-f' option in ls does something entirely different in 'rm'. No two X programs behave alike. > > So the developers may like a text interface, many people don't. > > Developers like graphical interfaces as well. I much love X11's > simple cut&paste functionality, something i always found terrible to > use in other environments. (Note that X11 also provides for the > semantics for e.g. image cut&paste, yet only very few applications use > it. That is sad. Even offering multiple choices for the selection is > supported, so the target application could select either image or > text, whatever fits better.) I prefer a graphical layout editor (like > xf) when designing a graphical application. But i wouldn't the heck > use a horri^H^H^H^H^Hsimplified text widget, and call it `editor', in > order to fill in the application's ``meat''. Once the layout is > ready, i'm simply using the editor of my choice again to write the > procedures behind the graphical surface. X is not a real graphical user interface as Windows is. Many applications are tty-oriented applications with extra X-support. Orthogonality (left mouse button is select, right mouse button is (context-sensitive) menu) isn't there. It can be build - X is flexible enough for that - but I'm to see it happen. With _all_ decent applications supporting it, that is. Of course, flexibility has it's advantages. But Joe Sixpack can't install and setup FreeBSD and X in the same way as he can Windows. When - not if - the moment arrives that NT is as capable as Unix, you'll see that the relative ease with which you can setup things (you still need to know what you're doing, though) will give Unix a very hard time. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 15:44:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15110 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15093 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 25515 on Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:43:35 GMT; id WAA25515 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA00711; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:17:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970827231737.28842@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:17:37 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <3.0.3.32.19970827104431.0097ce70@cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970827104431.0097ce70@cybercom.net>; from The Classiest Man Alive on Wed, Aug 27, 1997 at 10:44:31AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Classiest Man Alive shared with us: > At 11:55 PM 8/26/97 +0200, you wrote: > > [VC++, GUI's, etc.] > > > >So the developers may like a text interface, many people don't. > >And apart from all the marketing hype MS is creating, that's > >something to be considered - though very hard to solve. > > What I've noticed is that the GUI environments tend to have easier learning > curves, but that in the long run, command lines with terse commands and > options tend to be more efficient for the experienced user. A good, simple > example of this is trying to copy groups of files with a graphical file > manager or a prompt. Finding out the options to recurse subdirectories and > observe time modification stamps would probably take longer than dragging > and dropping, but once you had the knowledge in your head, typing the > command probably takes less time than all the clicking and dragging > involved in the GUI approach. The mistake is in thinking that the two are > mutually exclusive. This is what made the Amiga such an excellent machine. The GUI wasn't as slick as Windows 95/NT 4.0 (though third party extensies existed) and the shell wasn't as powerful as a Unix shell (though third party extensions existed), both were very useable and offered many interesting features. The copy described above could be done with list >s:temp dir1: since 1-may-1997 upto 30-may-1997 all lformat="copy %s%s dir2:" execute s:temp delete s:temp With version 2 of the OS, you also had ARexx (the Amiga version of Rexx) as an interface. You could use it for inter-program communication and create custom scripts to control one application from the other. (And I haven't even mentioned the possibility to assign a logical name to a disk, directory or device. Or the excellent libraries and devices system. What a waste. And still, the Amiga is The Computer That Would Not Die. It's been bought by Gateway 2000. Commodore went bankrupt, it's assets and it's name was bought by Escom. Escom went bankrupt, the assets (being the Amiga) stayed in their own (bankrupt) company. The name Commodore was sold to the Dutch section of Escom, who called themselves Commodore since then. It went bankrupt this week. The Dutch firm Dynabyte showed an interest in the name, so I expect them to be out of business in a year, give or take a bit. But the Amiga still lives and has an active group of users. Amazing.) With Unix, you have a terrific shell and hardly anything more (some support for printers, like other OS's have, would be nice). With Windows, you have a very consistent and orthogonal user interface, but a shell that basically sucks. > Of course, this tends to create an attitude among very skilled programmers > that you can't accomplish to much with a mouse; command lines are the only > way to do *real* work. ("Why, back in my day, we didn't have no > mamby-pamby pointers and icons. Just ones and zeroes...") Unfortunately, > those most in need of a GUI interface (like me) don't have the skill to > create one, and those who do believe that anybody serious about their craft > doesn't need one. I couldn't agree more. I might be able to create a GUI, but I don't have the time for it. Plus, there are alternatives. It's just a matter of time until I can do the things I want with NT. > On a slightly related note, there also seems to be a lot of Microsoft > player hating among UNIX-heads. Granted, there's not a lot of cutting edge > technology coming out of Redmond, but MS has mastered a technique that most > highly skilled programmers and shops are too proud to use--taking someone > else's good idea, combining it with their great marketing, and taking > ownership of the market. Rather than hating MS for bastardizing the > technology, I say that we take whatever good concepts from them that we can > and integrate it into out products. Use their own strategy against them. > Of course, a few mil in the bank wouldn't hurt, but we'll just do what we > can. :-) Yep, the hating is there. People writing 'M$' and so on... Some months ago, I had the same approach toward Microsoft and NT. Until a project came along, where there was a choice between Unix and NT. It was not my decision, but I pushed it a bit towards NT - just to figure out this OS that I knew really knew little about. What I found out, that it does have it's quirks. Perhaps that because I was used to FreeBSD and X. What I did like was the stability, the excellent on-line documentation and the fact that you immediatly know how an application works and where you can find things. So the user interface is taken from the Mac and the NeXT. So drag- and-drop existed for the Mac, Amiga and Archimedes. So probably all of it existed in a earlier stage. That doesn't make the product bad. They do have the market, and whether you like it or not, you can't get around it. So an occasional peek over the fence wouldn't hurt, because we may have a proven system and freely available sources, Joe Customer doesn't care a rat's ass. He only wants to connect his Access database and Internet Information Server with freely available and easy to use dbWeb. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 20:45:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04322 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04317 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Quisqueya (slip166-72-219-149.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.149]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13801 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708280344.XAA13801@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 21:46:17 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Seeking RAD Development tools for FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are there any RAD development tools for FreeBSD? (commercial is fine). Preferably something which will produce compiled code not interpreted. I recently started programming in Delphi and I started wondering if there were any good development environments for FreeBSD. I don't even care if it is GUI based, what I want to work on are back office type of applications (ie databases) which would most likely use the WEB as a front end. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 21:31:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06303 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06296 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA07919 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:31:55 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id GAA14451 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:31:23 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-uucp-2.9) id AAA04965; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970828000854.06268@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:08:54 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marilyn Rules Again References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Tue, Aug 26, 1997 at 11:21:08PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3592 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Annelise Anderson: > If enforcement is prohibited only against Bernstein, what happens > to a release of FreeBSD that includes DES? After the first ruling, WC decided to ship FreeBSD with all DES/Kerberos source code and binaries as the judge was in the Bay Area. The government has still to appeal the judge's decision I think. What I want to know is whether this new ruling override the preceding one or not... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Tue Aug 26 21:05:09 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 21:43:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06875 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06694 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA27742; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:50:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:50:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708280450.WAA27742@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Eric A. Griff" , dkelly@hiwaay.net CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Burning CDs In-Reply-To: References: <199708150115.UAA01297@nospam.hiwaay.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dkelly@hiwaay.net spewed out: % Happen to have a couple AOL CD's at work that I use to sit hot coffee cups % on. A gulible person once asked about that, I explained the shiny aluminum % layer in the CD was a space age reflective insulator... % % Actually it simply tickled my fancy to use an AOL disk that way (haven't % been to the shooting range lately, they frown on shooting anything but % their paper targets). Am now looking for a Windows NT CDROM... :-) You need a better shooting range: Doug's Shoot-n-Sports allows us to shoot old terminals, monitors, CPUs, etc. after the bowling pin meets on Thursday night. They have a pile of waste to sweep up anyhow... ;^) Eric A. Griff replied: > I don't feel so different anymore :) > I use aol and prodigy disks for dog toys :) Fortunately we still get quite a few AOL floppies around here. I find the perfect use for them is to make FreeBSD boot/fixit floppies from them. ;^) We should probably save all the AOL, Prodigy, and Compu$erve CD-ROMs, someday we might be able to make a killer solar oven from the lot of them. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 22:48:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09559 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from renoir.op.net (root@renoir.op.net [206.84.208.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09554 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monet.op.net (darxus@monet.op.net [206.84.208.3]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.14 $) with ESMTP id BAA01799 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (darxus@localhost) by monet.op.net ($Revision: 1.2 $) with SMTP id BAA14867 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:48:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: monet.op.net: darxus owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:48:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Darxus To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: lameness in #FreeBSD on EFNet (IRC) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am aware of and happy with the fact that IRC belongs to, and is controlled by on-one, and that nobody here is responsible for any behavior in the #FreeBSD channel on the (main) EFNet IRC network. But this seemed as good a place as any to discuss it... well, here's the log, it should speak for itself... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ~ [ctcp(#freebsd)] EMAIL ~~~ [mode/#FreeBSD(+b *!*arxus@*.bellatlantic.net)] by Obi-Wan ~~~ You were kicked off #freebsd by micro (banned) ~~~ [#freebsd] banned from channel. -BooYaa- my email: booyaa@world-net.net ~~~ [#freebsd] banned from channel. ~~~ [#freebsd] banned from channel. what the hell was that for ? Because I don't want to be ctcp'd so you kick me out of the channel, and now I'm banned, because I did a friggin ctcp request ?? talk to someone else if you want to be unbanned you ban me and don't want to take responsibility for it ?? I take full responsibility, but I'm not going to unban you why ? how is a ctcp request grounds for banning ? because I'm irritable and we don't need /ctcp's to the channel which aren't standard ~ [ctcp(obi-wan)] VERSION ~~~ CTCP VERSION reply from Obi-Wan: ircII 2.9_roof FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE :[PurePak] Kewlness, a more elegant weapon, from a more civilized age it's grounds in my book, I don't care what anyone else thinks so you ctcp me again, this is going nowhere, I'll just ignore you I was curious what you're client was that's a standard ctcp request and the other one is a standard ctcp request for the client I'm using, so I was curious who else decided to use that option ---------------------------------------------------------------------- so I currently can't take part in the discussions in #FreeBSD because this guy's got something against ctcp requests... ________________________________________________________________________ ***PGP fingerprint = D5 EB F8 E7 64 55 CF 91 C2 4F E0 4D 18 B6 7C 27*** darxus@op.net / http://www.op.net/~darxus "You shall know the truth, and it shall make you odd." From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 23:49:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12639 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12631 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA14807; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:48:57 -0700 (PDT) To: Darxus cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: lameness in #FreeBSD on EFNet (IRC) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:48:00 EDT." Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:48:57 -0700 Message-ID: <14803.872750937@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I am aware of and happy with the fact that IRC belongs to, and is > controlled by on-one, and that nobody here is responsible for any behavior > in the #FreeBSD channel on the (main) EFNet IRC network. But this seemed EFNet is a cesspool and you should expect only ill treatment on it. I know, I occasionally hang out there and can say with experience that the general "ethic" seems to be that if you have ops, you should use them to kick and/or ban folks whenever possible, grounds for which include having a lame nickname, asking questions or otherwise annoying someone with ops by the simple fact that you exist. Better either get used to it or join BSDNet at irc.freebsd.org instead. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 27 23:52:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12807 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12794 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA26103 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:52:03 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA13857; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:37:03 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:37:03 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl>; from Peter Korsten on Aug 28, 1997 00:25:32 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter Korsten wrote: > Er, that's actually what I did. :) I put the objects files in a > '.for' loop. I wanted something like '*.c' but it wouldn't work. SRCS!= echo *.c (But that's BSD make, alas.) > It's not really more complicated, it's more work. I have to make > a seperate Makefile (with the chance of errors) and edit that > when I add a file to my project. I consider auto-adding each new file fairly dangerous. I often drop files like `foo.c' in my workspace where i have been testing something. > > good. Now consider that you've got a GIF image that should be > > included as a (for example) X11 bitmap. How do you do this in VC++? > > I insert a bitmap object, I suppose. A menu brings up a select box > with graphical representations of objects you can insert. And each time the original object changes, you can re-insert it, maybe scale it by 50 %, maybe reduce its number of colors to 20, each done anew automatically after a change? > Why did you write your own keybaord mapping? Wasn't there a > suitable mapping available? There wasn't. > There certainly is a German keyboard > mapping for Windows. Sure. The German keyboard has been designed by a typist, not by a hacker. How else could they have laid out the {[]}'s in a way where you break your fingers? The consequence is that most hackers simply avoid German keyboards at all, and use US-ASCII ones. But they fail to write texts with German umlauts on them. My mapping allows for both. > Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, > that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the > office. (For the insiders: color scheme Rainy Day, background Blue > Monday, automatically hiding taskbar on top, small icons, and > shortcuts to all drives on my desktop, together with Netscape and > the mandatory icons.) And herein lies the rub. My desktop probably looks unique to anything else on the world. The explanation i can give you wouldn't fit into one pair of parenthesis, so anybody else with X11 could reconstruct it. Yours is a pre-cooked one, still. I have stolen some granite bitmap from an SGI, that's my background. I'm using Alt-1 through Alt-9 to toggle the virtual screens (though this feature has already infected other colleagues :). Etc. pp. The only description i can give you for my desktop is sending the entire .fvwmrc, .xsession and app-defaults files. > Isn't it a bit strange that > the configuration of most X-applications is done in a text file? What else? Some piece of binary junk that can only be maintained by that very program itself? Store the layout in a bitmap? No, the only problem with this is that the authors of most X11 software didn't think of adding a knob to allow you editing them without using a text editor. Things like CDE show that it can be done. Or Netscape. Still, it's plain text files, but who cares? (I wouldn't even be sure any longer for Netscape.) The worst abonimation DOS/Windows came up with is IMHO a ``text system'' that uses binary junk files, incompatible even to itself, unintelligible for anybody else. They probably call this ``marketing'', i know. > But the point I was making was not that the screen should look > the same on every system, but that applications should be build > and respond in the same way. So you want a Macintosh? :-) But well, that's not a problem of the window system itself, it's a problem of the application writers. Windows applications usually don't adhere to this requirement either, although they often *look* as if they were doing. X11 applications don't even look like they would attempt to reach this goal. The strictest environment enforcing such a policy is indeed the Mac. > X is not a real graphical user interface as Windows is. Many Define `real'. X11 is a windows environment, nothing else. The toolkits have to be provided separately. > applications are tty-oriented applications with extra X-support. But that's hardly the failure of X. It's the failure of those people who've been using their old tty-mode programs, and wrapped them up into X11. > When - not if - the moment arrives that NT is as capable as Unix, > you'll see that the relative ease with which you can setup things > (you still need to know what you're doing, though) will give Unix > a very hard time. This has been threatened a while ago already. The tricky thing with NT (as i see it every day at our customers) is *not* to initially get it to fly. The tricky thing is to keep it running, and even know in a failure situation what it's doing, and how to repair. One of our customers started to send out packets to port 138 on a nonexistant address of our network a couple of days ago. This costs him DM 10 each day, phone costs only. He doesn't even know why this happens, nor was he able to trace it down by now. I know it's his NT server, so i wasn't too surprised to see it happen... The initial disadvant- age with Unix, that you gotta learn quite a number of things before you are happy, quickly turns into an advantage once there's a problem: you know the ins and outs of your system, so you also know where to look if troubles appear. I've seen many win users re-installing their systems quite a number of times. I couldn't imagine why i should re-install one of my systems. The machine at home even has migrated a number of disks already, without re-installation. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 28 00:03:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13285 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cody.usls.edu (www2.usls.edu [202.47.133.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13275 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (francis@localhost) by cody.usls.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA01067; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:02:18 +0800 (PHT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:02:18 +0800 (PHT) From: Francis Vidal To: Darxus cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: lameness in #FreeBSD on EFNet (IRC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Darxus wrote: > I am aware of and happy with the fact that IRC belongs to, and is > controlled by on-one, and that nobody here is responsible for any behavior > in the #FreeBSD channel on the (main) EFNet IRC network. But this seemed > as good a place as any to discuss it... [some portions snipped] > so I currently can't take part in the discussions in #FreeBSD because this > guy's got something against ctcp requests... hey, have you heard of the word "power hungry" & "abusive" <-- it applies to that guy. better stick to this mailing list where a lot of sensible people exist. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 28 01:14:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA16530 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16524 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA27295; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:13:54 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA05259; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:43:49 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:43:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: J Wunsch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 08:37:03AM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by freebie.lemis.com id RAA05259 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id BAA16526 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 08:37:03AM +0200, J Wunsch wrote: > As Peter Korsten wrote: > >> Er, that's actually what I did. :) I put the objects files in a >> '.for' loop. I wanted something like '*.c' but it wouldn't work. > > SRCS!= echo *.c > > (But that's BSD make, alas.) There are similar constructs available for other makes. >> It's not really more complicated, it's more work. I have to make >> a seperate Makefile (with the chance of errors) and edit that >> when I add a file to my project. > > I consider auto-adding each new file fairly dangerous. I often drop > files like `foo.c' in my workspace where i have been testing > something. I would guess that Peter hasn't understood the power of make. >> Why did you write your own keybaord mapping? Wasn't there a >> suitable mapping available? > > There wasn't. > >> There certainly is a German keyboard >> mapping for Windows. > > Sure. The German keyboard has been designed by a typist, not by a > hacker. How else could they have laid out the {[]}'s in a way where > you break your fingers? The consequence is that most hackers simply > avoid German keyboards at all, and use US-ASCII ones. But they fail > to write texts with German umlauts on them. My mapping allows for > both. Round about here we begin to see the divergence of your views. Peter wants a standard, no matter how bad. Jörg wants a tool that he can use. No trouble guessing which side I'm on :-) >> Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, >> that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the >> office. (For the insiders: color scheme Rainy Day, background Blue >> Monday, automatically hiding taskbar on top, small icons, and >> shortcuts to all drives on my desktop, together with Netscape and >> the mandatory icons.) Wow. How many components of this desktop originated outside NT? >> Isn't it a bit strange that >> the configuration of most X-applications is done in a text file? > > What else? Some piece of binary junk that can only be maintained by > that very program itself? Store the layout in a bitmap? Peter, what's strange about it? It's one of the cleverest things they could have done. Read on... > No, the only problem with this is that the authors of most X11 > software didn't think of adding a knob to allow you editing them > without using a text editor. Is that a problem? They supplied a format which *can* easily be used by other applications. Megaslop, by comparison, stores the information in proprietary format binary files. Theoretically you could save a few bytes by doing this (that was the argument I always used for doing it this way, anyway :-), but in practice I'd guess that Megaslop config files are larger even than the biggest X app-defaults files. The disadvantages of the binary files are obvious when you think about it: you need special programs to access them. I've never seen any such file which can store comments. The typical Megaslop config program shows you lots of "card file" menus, which effectively makes it impossible to keep an overview. Never mind that computers have replaced card files and the like--thanks to Megaslop, we still have their restrictions. > Things like CDE show that it can be done. Or Netscape. Still, it's > plain text files, but who cares? (I wouldn't even be sure any > longer for Netscape.) As far as I can see, all Netscrape parameters are stored in app-defaults/Netscape. Not a small file, BTW: $ ls -l /usr/X11/lib/X11/app-defaults/Netscape -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 219960 Aug 17 14:55 /usr/X11/lib/X11/app-defaults/Netscape On the other hand, over half is comments, and you can use it to configure Netscrape without any other documentation. Show me how to do that with a Megaslop config file, even the text ones. > The worst abonimation DOS/Windows came up with is IMHO a ``text > system'' that uses binary junk files, incompatible even to itself, > unintelligible for anybody else. They probably call this > ``marketing'', i know. I would suggest that they call it "protection of market share". >> X is not a real graphical user interface as Windows is. Many > > Define `real'. X11 is a windows environment, nothing else. The > toolkits have to be provided separately. Sure. X is modular. Megaslop Windows is a monolith. Windows are things to let light (and maybe air) into buildings. >> applications are tty-oriented applications with extra X-support. Some are. Others aren't. Don't forget that character-oriented applications offer you a flexibility that no GUI can possibly offer. One of the biggest mistakes in the Megaslop environment is that this flexibility has been discarded because it's more difficult to learn. > But that's hardly the failure of X. It's the failure of those people > who've been using their old tty-mode programs, and wrapped them up > into X11. That applies only to some of them. There are plenty of GUI applications in the Ports Collection. The thing is, most FreeBSD users don't use them because they don't buy them anything. >> When - not if - the moment arrives that NT is as capable as Unix, >> you'll see that the relative ease with which you can setup things >> (you still need to know what you're doing, though) will give Unix >> a very hard time. > > This has been threatened a while ago already. The tricky thing with > NT (as i see it every day at our customers) is *not* to initially get > it to fly. The tricky thing is to keep it running, and even know in a > failure situation what it's doing, and how to repair. One of our > customers started to send out packets to port 138 on a nonexistant > address of our network a couple of days ago. This costs him DM 10 > each day, phone costs only. He doesn't even know why this happens, > nor was he able to trace it down by now. I know it's his NT server, > so i wasn't too surprised to see it happen... The initial disadvant- > age with Unix, that you gotta learn quite a number of things before > you are happy, quickly turns into an advantage once there's a problem: > you know the ins and outs of your system, so you also know where to > look if troubles appear. Yup. There's no good way to represent errors graphically. > I've seen many win users re-installing their systems quite a number > of times. I couldn't imagine why i should re-install one of my > systems. The machine at home even has migrated a number of disks > already, without re-installation. This is a habit that a lot of people get in to, even with FreeBSD. I don't know how to explain to people that it's a bad idea. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 28 02:38:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA19404 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA19396 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA00812; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:36:10 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:36:10 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: John Fieber cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scary lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, John Fieber wrote: > On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Narvi wrote: > > > Why are they threating W3C? Web sure is not and does not use such things. > > W3C is proposing an extension to HTTP in support of replicating > data, i.e. web sites much like the FreeBSD mirrors are replicated > using rsync. Well, so they are getting somewhere with the URN concept and support for it... I haven't looked at the W3 page for some time. > > > If I am not wrong you would have to be the author/owner of the thing you > > patent? > > Yes, but how hard is it to convince the patent office that you > are the original author? Original authorship is not something > that can be proved absolutely, it can only be positively > disproved. By calling lots of people who have done things like this in ages before that company probably ever existed yet alone submitted a patent? Well, the FreeBSD rdist manpage says it originated in 4.3BSD and the date at the end of the man page reads may 1994. Rcp (I don't know if it qualifies) is at least of 4.2BSD. It should be quite safe, considering the mainframe people most probably did things like this even earlier. It should be a safe case. > > If the patent stands, they could potentially demand royalties for > things like cvsup. Yech! Move all cvsup servers/distribution points to Europe and claim you no longer support it? > -john > > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 28 07:09:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29433 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29374 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA09159; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:06:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:06:45 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Narvi cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scary lawsuit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Narvi wrote: > Well, the FreeBSD rdist manpage says it originated in 4.3BSD and the date > at the end of the man page reads may 1994. Rcp (I don't know if it > qualifies) is at least of 4.2BSD. Rcp doesn't express anything that would be in vilotation of the patent. The patent (going from the abstract) covers the idea of comparing a list of what a client machine should have with what it does have and updating only the things that differ between the two. Rdist is probably safe datewise since 4.3BSD dates to 1986 (McKusick et. al. 1996, p6) and includes some of the concepts in the patent, but not necessairly all. Sup seems to be a closer match. The earliest document I've found describing it is dated September 7, 1989. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 28 08:00:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA02400 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02377 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-16.cybercom.net [209.21.137.16]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA10107 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970828103501.009789e0@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:35:01 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: Scary lawsuit In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 12:36 PM 8/28/97 +0300, Narvi wrote: >> Yes, but how hard is it to convince the patent office that you >> are the original author? Original authorship is not something >> that can be proved absolutely, it can only be positively >> disproved. > >By calling lots of people who have done things like this in ages before >that company probably ever existed yet alone submitted a patent? On an slightly related note, does anyone know the status of the Linux trademark dispute? K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 28 08:40:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05144 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05136 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA17847; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:40:41 -0700 (PDT) To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scary lawsuit In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:35:01 EDT." <3.0.3.32.19970828103501.009789e0@cybercom.net> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:40:40 -0700 Message-ID: <17844.872782840@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On an slightly related note, does anyone know the status of the Linux > trademark dispute? It was resolved, the trademark now belonging to Linus Torvalds. Details of the settlement were not disclosed, but apparently the cretin who started this whole mess had his legal and trademark application costs paid as part of the settlement. I guess that was the quick way to settle it, but it sort of offends my sense of justice; I'd have preferred to see the bastard bankrupted for his idiocy. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 28 23:22:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14271 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14260 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 26635 on Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:21:57 GMT; id GAA26635 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA00857; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:53:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970829025323.52918@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:53:23 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 05:43:48PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey shared with us: > On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 08:37:03AM +0200, J Wunsch wrote: > > As Peter Korsten wrote: > > > >> Er, that's actually what I did. :) I put the objects files in a > >> '.for' loop. I wanted something like '*.c' but it wouldn't work. > > > > SRCS!= echo *.c > > > > (But that's BSD make, alas.) > > There are similar constructs available for other makes. > > >> It's not really more complicated, it's more work. I have to make > >> a seperate Makefile (with the chance of errors) and edit that > >> when I add a file to my project. > > > > I consider auto-adding each new file fairly dangerous. I often drop > > files like `foo.c' in my workspace where i have been testing > > something. > > I would guess that Peter hasn't understood the power of make. Yes, Peter does understand the power of make. As with almost all Unix tools, you can do nearly anything you want with it. You don't auto-add each file you open. You may open a file, edit some, and insert it into your program. Or you insert a new file into your project. It's a bit easier than editing your Makefile. And speaking of versatility, you can also build your own application wizard. Just build the framework for your code with a couple of mouse clicks. Sure you can do this with make. But that just as well take time. > >> Why did you write your own keybaord mapping? Wasn't there a > >> suitable mapping available? > > > > There wasn't. > > > >> There certainly is a German keyboard > >> mapping for Windows. > > > > Sure. The German keyboard has been designed by a typist, not by a > > hacker. How else could they have laid out the {[]}'s in a way where > > you break your fingers? The consequence is that most hackers simply > > avoid German keyboards at all, and use US-ASCII ones. But they fail > > to write texts with German umlauts on them. My mapping allows for > > both. Well, that figures. Non-US keyboard layouts usually bother the **** out of me. Dutch keyboards seem to have existed, but they died very quickly. > Round about here we begin to see the divergence of your views. Peter > wants a standard, no matter how bad. Jörg wants a tool that he can > use. No trouble guessing which side I'm on :-) You misunderstand me, quite some. I don't want a standard at all costs. I just see that configuring Windows takes less time than configuring Unix. And, yes, Unix is more versatile. But do you also add extra functions to your television? Aren't you bored with those standard boxes everybody else has? Or do you customize your car? Some people build their own stereos, some customize their car, some need to be able to totally customize their computer. But they're a minority. > >> Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, > >> that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the > >> office. (For the insiders: color scheme Rainy Day, background Blue > >> Monday, automatically hiding taskbar on top, small icons, and > >> shortcuts to all drives on my desktop, together with Netscape and > >> the mandatory icons.) > > Wow. How many components of this desktop originated outside NT? None. Why? > >> Isn't it a bit strange that > >> the configuration of most X-applications is done in a text file? > > > > What else? Some piece of binary junk that can only be maintained by > > that very program itself? Store the layout in a bitmap? > > No, the only problem with this is that the authors of most X11 > > software didn't think of adding a knob to allow you editing them > > without using a text editor. Correct. > Is that a problem? They supplied a format which *can* easily be used > by other applications. Megaslop, by comparison, stores the > information in proprietary format binary files. Theoretically you > could save a few bytes by doing this (that was the argument I always > used for doing it this way, anyway :-), but in practice I'd guess that > Megaslop config files are larger even than the biggest X app-defaults > files. (It took me quite some time to find out that you actually mean 'Microsoft' when you write 'Megaslop'. IMO, this looks childish.) Yes, it's a problem. That's what I meant. I don't care about the way the data is stored. I've designed a user interface with custom- izable settings for the Amiga once and it also stored it's settings in a text file. What I do care about, is indeed the fact that Joerg mentioned: the inability to edit these settings with a preference editor. If you have a graphical application, it's _stupid_ that you have to edit a text file to alter something in the appearance of that application. I don't know if you people have ever read a book about how a user interface should be constructed (I have), but you could learn a lot out of it. > The disadvantages of the binary files are obvious when you think about > it: you need special programs to access them. I've never seen any > such file which can store comments. The typical Megaslop config > program shows you lots of "card file" menus, which effectively makes > it impossible to keep an overview. Never mind that computers have > replaced card files and the like--thanks to Megaslop, we still have > their restrictions. Like I said, I don't care about the file format. It's totally irrelevant. If your preference editor is good enough, you don't need to know about the file format. Further, I fail to see what the logical grouping of settings with these "card files" has to do with losing the overview. There isn't an overview. These are distinct things. If you fill in your gateway, you don't need to be able to see what your DNS is. > [Netscape configuration files] > > On the other hand, over half is comments, and you can use it to > configure Netscrape without any other documentation. Show me how to > do that with a Megaslop config file, even the text ones. Oh yes, mummy. I really really want to edit the file myself. No I don't want to use the program itself for it. You're reasoning from the Unix point of view. You do everything from a text file, so you want to be able to do that in Windows too. Well, you can't and you shouldn't be able to do so, because the average user (who is kept more in mind with Windows than with Unix) will certainly screw it up. > >> X is not a real graphical user interface as Windows is. Many > > > > Define `real'. X11 is a windows environment, nothing else. The > > toolkits have to be provided separately. With 'real' I mean integrated. X is very modular and can do every- thing the GUI from Windows can too, with proper programming. You can choose your own window manager, alter the whole look-and-feel, change the way the mouse behaves. But what it lacks is a common base that describes how programs should work (and the professional Windows programs do work the same way), a file manager/Explorer like thing to move your files around, drag-and-drop, the fact that every decently written program behaves in the way you expect it to. Mac, Amiga, Atari, Archimedes, and NeXT all have this. X and it's windows managers don't. > >> applications are tty-oriented applications with extra X-support. > > Some are. Others aren't. Don't forget that character-oriented > applications offer you a flexibility that no GUI can possibly offer. > One of the biggest mistakes in the Megaslop environment is that this > flexibility has been discarded because it's more difficult to learn. It isn't a mistake. This flexibility is a direct descendant of the limits that a text-only environment imposes on you. If you wouldn't have the flexibility, you would have nothing, compared to a GUI. The idea behind a GUI is to make it simple and consistent. Why should one need extensive training to be able to operate a computer? Why can't many people still program their VCR? Because the user interface sucks. Sure, GUI's are hard to program and not as much fun as writing a high-performance file system or device driver. But it's the interface to the user and that's why they're so important. > > But that's hardly the failure of X. It's the failure of those people > > who've been using their old tty-mode programs, and wrapped them up > > into X11. I can understand why this is. If you write a program, at least half of your time will get into the time to develop a good GUI. It's a hard thing to do. I've done it for the Amiga, but I must say the result was worth the trouble. If the GUI would have been worse, the program would have gotten bad reviews. Now, the reviews were good. The GUI wasn't mentioned. So that means it lived up to the expectations. > >> [NT becoming better over time] > > > > This has been threatened a while ago already. The tricky thing with > > NT (as i see it every day at our customers) is *not* to initially get > > it to fly. The tricky thing is to keep it running, and even know in a > > failure situation what it's doing, and how to repair. One of our > > customers started to send out packets to port 138 on a nonexistant > > address of our network a couple of days ago. This costs him DM 10 > > each day, phone costs only. He doesn't even know why this happens, > > nor was he able to trace it down by now. I know it's his NT server, > > so i wasn't too surprised to see it happen... The initial disadvant- > > age with Unix, that you gotta learn quite a number of things before > > you are happy, quickly turns into an advantage once there's a problem: > > you know the ins and outs of your system, so you also know where to > > look if troubles appear. That's a problem with NT, sure. Try to find some log files, for example. You still need to be a sysadmin to maintain an NT system, something that's easily overlooked by those that fall for the marketing hype coming out of Redmond, WA. Even then, some things hide behind a shroud of mystery. > Yup. There's no good way to represent errors graphically. Nonsense. > > I've seen many win users re-installing their systems quite a number > > of times. I couldn't imagine why i should re-install one of my > > systems. The machine at home even has migrated a number of disks > > already, without re-installation. > > This is a habit that a lot of people get in to, even with FreeBSD. I > don't know how to explain to people that it's a bad idea. It isn't too difficult to totally mess up you Windows system. So it might be the best idea to start from a know situation: the one just after installing. But say I accidently removed /etc and then rebooted, what would be the best way to fix it? Re-installing could be an option. If I may conclude my points, all I can say that both systems have their pro's and con's. I wouldn't be on this list if I were just another Microsoft devotee. But you can nitpick as much as you want on MS, Windows and NT, but some things just work better with them. Security in NT has a better base (VMS) that in Unix, despite the security bugs that reguraly show up. Another thing, not to be forgotten, is that very many people use Windows 95 at the moment. It's pretty easy to couple it with NT. So, for an intranet, NT is probably more suited than Unix is. NT is something like five to ten years old. I don't expect all the bugs to be out of it, also considering MS's strategy to release first and fix bugs later. Unix had 25 years to mature. MS has 20,000 programmers and a lot of cash. The stepover from 95 to NT 4.0 is pretty smooth. So expect to see a lot of NT or it derivates in five years. The monopoly is pretty scaring, but what can you do abot it? Unix isn't friendly enough to appeal to a mass market. It also lacks options that have become pretty standard by now. Noone, except some excep- tions, wants to use a text interface anymore. What I noticed as the helpdesk at an Internet Service Provider, is that the average customer becomes less and less knowledgeable about computers, and this is a trend that's continuing. To these people, MS products appeal a lot more than Unix, sad as it may be. Though it's my opinion that you don't need training to operate a computer. This is what makes the Mac very good (it does have it disadvantages, of course). I had a woman, who never touched a computer or a mouse before, started with Netscape on a Mac in a matter of minutes. She also found out an inconsistency with the user interface (the cursor changes when you move over a link, but not when you move over a button) that I didn't even think about. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 28 23:22:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14280 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14262 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 26639 on Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:21:59 GMT; id GAA26639 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA00622; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:14:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:14:10 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... References: <199708242230.PAA13822@merchant.tns.net> <34039989.2770@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <34039989.2770@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro Giffuni S, on Tue, Aug 26, 1997 at 08:05:45PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Pedro Giffuni S, shared with us: > Here is an alternative view to the M$ problem seen by the former > Autodesk president: Autodesk, are they still in business then? > When I look at Microsoft's current product line (which I avoid doing as > much as possible, I must confess), the problem is not that it lacks > features--God, most of it has way too many features for its own good, > and I suspect 90% of the users never discover nor use a majority of > them--but that it is bug-infested junk. What users need is not > ActiveXYZ, the NanoGenetic TransSpecies API, etc., etc., endless etc. > but software which works properly and does not crash. Jamming 1.5 > megabytes of roach-motel USER and GDI code into the kernel of NT 4.0 to > "improve performance" shows Microsoft lack the basic competence and/or > willingness to provide a reliable > operating system. And that has been a solved problem since the 1960's. > Now they're going to sell us a global distributed component model secure > multi-platform multi-media object oriented operating system. Right. I had NT 4.0 crash on me twice. The first time was when I removed an external SCSI tape drive while the system was on. I got some blue panic screen. The second was when there were 0 (and no more than that) bytes free on the system drive and someone tried to log in for the first time. There was no space to create a new profile and the thing read from address 0x70. That was a segment violation, so the login application was terminated, but that also meant that the system rebooted. This was on various machines, mostly Pentium 133 with 64 Mb memory. NT 4.0 Server, SQL Server 6.5 with a 100Mb database, Internet Infor- mation Server 3.0 and Visual C++ 4.2 running at the same time. I think you can say the system was used moderatly heavily. Performance was still very good at this time. Admitted, the hardware used was high quality: Asus mainboard, Adaptec controller, Quantum Atlas II disk. At one time, I was forced to switch off the system because I accidently opened 1200 Explorers and the damn thing just wouldn't crash. :) So, Pedro, get out of your ivory tower and check your facts before you start making statements from other people's experience. There's a world out there that's using these products. You may not like it, but you can't get around it either. I know I'm sounding like 'Amazing Discoveries' here. I'm not a Microsoft advocate - far from that - but I think there's a lot of either ignorance or blindsightness about this firm and it's products in the Unix world. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 00:15:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16596 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16589 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA20965; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:15:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:53:23 +0200." <19970829025323.52918@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:15:39 -0700 Message-ID: <20961.872838939@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Look, this was all already summed up very nicely by the gent (and I've forgetten who it was at this point) who said that the fundamental problem lies in the fact that those who most need these interfaces lack the time or skill to implement them, those with both skill and time not needing them enough to bother writing them. We can sit here all day discussing how NT has a nice drivable GUI and beats UNIX for user friendliness 9 ways to Sunday, but what's the point? It contributes absolutely nothing towards actually bring such a system for UNIX into being, and much of this ideological ground has been covered in previous "NT vs UNIX" discussions - there are a lot of vocal passengers on this bus, but still not a driver of any particular ability or distinction. This discussion also entirely misses the point that Microsoft has been able to do what it has done largely through its advantage of being a strict monarchy - orders for some standard level of GUI-friendliness come down from on high and those orders are carried out, regardless of whether or not they exhibit a level of technical sophistication or intrinsic extensibility which makes engineers happy. The UNIX die-hards would never settle for something like that, regardless of the end goals. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 00:54:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18422 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18412 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16140; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708290756.AAA16140@implode.root.com> To: "Root wcarchive.cdrom.com" cc: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com, tech@cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org, jc@crl.com Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:39:37 PDT." <199708290739.AAA27357@wcarchive.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:56:34 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Bytes transferred : 200,910,987,981 > >_____Downloads by Files/Bytes > > Total FTP HTTP FTP HTTP Total Total >Archive Name Bytes(k) Bytes(k) Bytes(k) Files Files %Bytes %Files >-------------- ------------ ----------- ----------- ------ ------ ------ ------ >_idgames2 97,927,411 88,647,778 9,279,632 32973 21427 48.74 10.23 >_simtelnet 22,084,128 14,183,029 7,901,098 16547 23150 10.99 7.47 >_games 18,338,360 18,150,065 188,295 10688 1949 9.13 2.38 >_linux 16,883,914 15,968,346 915,568 67399 9245 8.40 14.41 >_FreeBSD 13,021,223 13,011,260 9,962 54567 1315 6.48 10.51 >_demos 8,093,937 5,302,548 2,791,388 16650 38991 4.03 10.46 >_idgames 5,699,977 5,011,788 688,189 7362 5476 2.84 2.41 >_gamesdomain 4,907,860 4,892,183 15,677 941 73 2.44 0.19 >_povray 2,677,114 2,645,236 31,878 4442 458 1.33 0.92 >_windows 1,588,820 1,342,950 245,870 2756 2298 0.79 0.95 >_XFree86 1,082,643 1,079,629 3,013 1185 103 0.54 0.24 ... >-------------- ------------ ----------- ----------- ------ ------ ------ ------ >80 archives 200,910,949 176,516,783 24,394,136 252934 278836 ~100.0 ~100.0 Well, as anticipated, this is a new one-day traffic record for wcarchive. The previous record of 185GB was set on June 26th. The extremely high total for idgames2 (and the cause of the new record) is due to the release of the "Hexen 2" game. We were at our 2000 user limit almost immediately when the game was put up (about 12:15PM PDT) and stayed at the limit for the rest of the day. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 01:06:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18966 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18961 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id EAA20303; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:06:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <20961.872838939@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > intrinsic extensibility which makes engineers happy. The UNIX > die-hards would never settle for something like that, regardless of > the end goals. > > Jordan BRAVO! *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.2 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 01:11:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA19265 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muffin.highwire.local (serialA00.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19248 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.99.31] (robsmac.highwire.local [172.16.99.31]) by muffin.highwire.local (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06830; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:16:52 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:16:52 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: robmel@muffin.highwire.local Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970825211642.11606@grendel.IAEhv.nl> References: <199708251617.MAA01380@i4got.lakewood.com>; from Bill Pechter on Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 12:17:31PM -0400 <199708251617.MAA01380@i4got.lakewood.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: Since the MicroSloth(tm) jokes have been flowing... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 9:16 pm +0200 25/8/97, Peter Korsten wrote: >Bill Pechter shared with us: >> > >> > But MS didn't write DOS. It was written by Tim Patterson at >> > Seattle Computer Products and MS bought it for $50,000. Um, but was more or less a direct pinch from Digital Research CP/M (incidentally a far superior product). We ran DR Concurrent CP/M on an 8086 serving 8 dumb terminals running Wordstar, an in-house database, and an 8K menuing user interface I wrote in assembler 8). Worked OK . >> Probably the best buy in computing. MS is worth Billions due to >> that one deal. The big deal was selling this turkey to IBM. >Uh, MS may have become big with DOS, they only became huge with >Windows 3.0. No, sadly they already had the monopoly in consumer Intel PC OS by this time. >They make mice, joysticks, games, compilers, office packages, server >products, a lot of gimmicks to tie all of it together, but the bulk >is still coming from Windows being shipped with about every PC in >the world. The big nail in the computer-bio-diversity coffin was MS Office. For all its faults (flaky/bloated/oversold) the Word & Excel parts of this package are about as good as you can get for doing the things most businesses actually /use/ computers for. With Lotus/Wordperfect sinking fast, where is the competition? Robin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Melville, Addiction Information Services Nottingham Alcohol & Drug Team Tel: +44 (0)115 952 9478 Fax: +44 (0)115 952 9421 work: robmel@nadt.org.uk home: robmel@innotts.co.uk Pages: http://www.innotts.co.uk/~robmel (home page) http://www.innotts.co.uk/suba (UK substance misuse pages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 01:13:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA19404 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA19395 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA16135; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:12:58 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA08434; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:42:57 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970829174256.30203@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:42:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Peter Korsten Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... References: <199708242230.PAA13822@merchant.tns.net> <34039989.2770@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl>; from Peter Korsten on Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 01:14:10AM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 01:14:10AM +0200, Peter Korsten wrote: > Pedro Giffuni S, shared with us: >> When I look at Microsoft's current product line (which I avoid doing as >> much as possible, I must confess), the problem is not that it lacks >> features--God, most of it has way too many features for its own good, >> and I suspect 90% of the users never discover nor use a majority of >> them--but that it is bug-infested junk. What users need is not >> ActiveXYZ, the NanoGenetic TransSpecies API, etc., etc., endless etc. >> but software which works properly and does not crash. Jamming 1.5 >> megabytes of roach-motel USER and GDI code into the kernel of NT 4.0 to >> "improve performance" shows Microsoft lack the basic competence and/or >> willingness to provide a reliable >> operating system. And that has been a solved problem since the 1960's. >> Now they're going to sell us a global distributed component model secure >> multi-platform multi-media object oriented operating system. Right. > > I had NT 4.0 crash on me twice. The first time was when I removed > an external SCSI tape drive while the system was on. I got some > blue panic screen. The second was when there were 0 (and no more > than that) bytes free on the system drive and someone tried to log > in for the first time. There was no space to create a new profile > and the thing read from address 0x70. That was a segment violation, > so the login application was terminated, but that also meant that > the system rebooted. > > This was on various machines, mostly Pentium 133 with 64 Mb memory. > NT 4.0 Server, SQL Server 6.5 with a 100Mb database, Internet Infor- > mation Server 3.0 and Visual C++ 4.2 running at the same time. I > think you can say the system was used moderatly heavily. Performance > was still very good at this time. Admitted, the hardware used was > high quality: Asus mainboard, Adaptec controller, Quantum Atlas II > disk. > > At one time, I was forced to switch off the system because I > accidently opened 1200 Explorers and the damn thing just wouldn't > crash. :) > > So, Pedro, get out of your ivory tower and check your facts before > you start making statements from other people's experience. There's > a world out there that's using these products. You may not like it, > but you can't get around it either. > > I know I'm sounding like 'Amazing Discoveries' here. I'm not a > Microsoft advocate - far from that - but I think there's a lot of > either ignorance or blindsightness about this firm and it's products > in the Unix world. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. When I read the paragraph about your crashes, I thought you were saying what a load of junk NT was. By the end of the last paragraph, I decided that you're using this information as evidence of the stability of NT. Well, I think I could forgive a system for crashing if you undid the SCSI chain with the "system disk", whatever that may mean in the context of the OS. It's still not nice, but I wouldn't put FreeBSD completely beyond that category either. A system that crashes because an application program can't get space is, on the other hand, broken. This also applies to a system that hangs (1200 Exploders), though this does rather sound like misconfiguration. How did you know you had 1200 Exploders? What's the normal process count limit on NT? Had you changed it? As to Pedro's quote, I don't understand. Pedro quoted an interesting URL. I read it and thought it well-balanced. That doesn't mean you have to agree, but a lot of us do. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 01:31:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20136 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pants.onlinemagic.net (pants.onlinemagic.net [206.102.110.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20131 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from powell (powell.onlinemagic.net [206.102.110.95]) by pants.onlinemagic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA26661; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:28:21 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970829042930.00c70d10@pants.onlinemagic.net> X-Sender: jschuur@pants.onlinemagic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Demo Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:29:30 -0500 To: dg@root.com, "Root wcarchive.cdrom.com" From: Joost Schuur Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 Cc: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com, tech@cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org, jc@crl.com In-Reply-To: <199708290756.AAA16140@implode.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 12:56 AM 8/29/97 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >> Bytes transferred : 200,910,987,981 >>_idgames2 97,927,411 88,647,778 9,279,632 32973 21427 48.74 10.23 > Well, as anticipated, this is a new one-day traffic record for wcarchive. >The previous record of 185GB was set on June 26th. The extremely high total >for idgames2 (and the cause of the new record) is due to the release of the >"Hexen 2" game. We were at our 2000 user limit almost immediately when the >game was put up (about 12:15PM PDT) and stayed at the limit for the rest of >the day. it would appear the activision web site didn't list any other mirror sites other than wcarchive for the whole day and even worse, one of their own ftp sites went down right after the release. i've supplied activision's webmaster a list of additional ftp sites that carry the demo, so they can ease the load on ftp.cdrom.com. [joost schuur] [software engineer] [jschuur@onlinemagic.net] [work] [online magic] [new york] [http://www.onlinemagic.net] [play] [slipgate central] [http://www.slipgatecentral.com] ['if you slap a chicken, it explodes' dungeon keeper manual] From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 01:42:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20713 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA20708 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA16726; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:42:11 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id SAA08480; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:12:00 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970829181200.30452@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:12:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Peter Korsten Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> <19970829025323.52918@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970829025323.52918@grendel.IAEhv.nl>; from Peter Korsten on Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 02:53:23AM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by freebie.lemis.com id SAA08480 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id BAA20709 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 02:53:23AM +0200, Peter Korsten wrote: > Greg Lehey shared with us: >> On Thu, Aug 28, 1997 at 08:37:03AM +0200, J Wunsch wrote: >>> As Peter Korsten wrote: >>> >>>> Er, that's actually what I did. :) I put the objects files in a >>>> '.for' loop. I wanted something like '*.c' but it wouldn't work. >>> >>> SRCS!= echo *.c >>> >>> (But that's BSD make, alas.) >> >> There are similar constructs available for other makes. >> >>>> It's not really more complicated, it's more work. I have to make >>>> a seperate Makefile (with the chance of errors) and edit that >>>> when I add a file to my project. >>> >>> I consider auto-adding each new file fairly dangerous. I often drop >>> files like `foo.c' in my workspace where i have been testing >>> something. >> >> I would guess that Peter hasn't understood the power of make. > > Yes, Peter does understand the power of make. As with almost all > Unix tools, you can do nearly anything you want with it. I'm sorry. It looks as if you have taken personal offense to my statements. That wasn't my intention. No, the power of make is not that you can do almost anything you want with it. Few will write such monstrosities as Roland McGrath's original set of concatenated Makefiles for GNU libc. What I'm talking about is the many-to-one mapping so typical of the make process. > You don't auto-add each file you open. You may open a file, edit > some, and insert it into your program. Or you insert a new file > into your project. Are you talking about your Microsoft IDE? Why do you need to do that? > It's a bit easier than editing your Makefile. Why edit your Makefile? Jörg shows how to eliminate that step. > And speaking of versatility, you can also build your own application > wizard. What's an application wizard? Some kind of superguru? > Just build the framework for your code with a couple of mouse > clicks. Why do I have to take my hands off the keyboard? > Sure you can do this with make. But that just as well take time. So far, you haven't shown anything which would require a modification to a Makefile. >>>> Why did you write your own keybaord mapping? Wasn't there a >>>> suitable mapping available? >>> >>> There wasn't. >>> >>>> There certainly is a German keyboard >>>> mapping for Windows. >>> >>> Sure. The German keyboard has been designed by a typist, not by a >>> hacker. How else could they have laid out the {[]}'s in a way where >>> you break your fingers? The consequence is that most hackers simply >>> avoid German keyboards at all, and use US-ASCII ones. But they fail >>> to write texts with German umlauts on them. My mapping allows for >>> both. > > Well, that figures. Non-US keyboard layouts usually bother the **** > out of me. Dutch keyboards seem to have existed, but they died very > quickly. Interesting. Do they use standard ASCII? I didn't know that. >> Round about here we begin to see the divergence of your views. Peter >> wants a standard, no matter how bad. Jörg wants a tool that he can >> use. No trouble guessing which side I'm on :-) > > You misunderstand me, quite some. I don't want a standard at all > costs. I just see that configuring Windows takes less time than > configuring Unix. I've never seen evidence for that. Every time I mess with Windows, I end up cursing and swearing. But then, I know UNIX, and I have great difficulty with the way Windows forces me to work. > And, yes, Unix is more versatile. But do you also add extra functions > to your television? Yes, as it happens. > Aren't you bored with those standard boxes everybody else has? Or do > you customize your car? I used to. > Some people build their own stereos, some customize their car, > some need to be able to totally customize their computer. But > they're a minority. Does that make us bad? Some people think. Some people come up with brilliant ideas. But they're a minority. >>>> Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, >>>> that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the >>>> office. (For the insiders: color scheme Rainy Day, background Blue >>>> Monday, automatically hiding taskbar on top, small icons, and >>>> shortcuts to all drives on my desktop, together with Netscape and >>>> the mandatory icons.) >> >> Wow. How many components of this desktop originated outside NT? > > None. Why? Jörg's point was that you can choose from anything you like, you're not bound to what one manufacturer thinks you should use. I was wondering if you had any evidence of such flexibility under Microsoft. >>>> Isn't it a bit strange that >>>> the configuration of most X-applications is done in a text file? >>> >>> What else? Some piece of binary junk that can only be maintained by >>> that very program itself? Store the layout in a bitmap? >>> No, the only problem with this is that the authors of most X11 >>> software didn't think of adding a knob to allow you editing them >>> without using a text editor. > > Correct. Not quite. They thought of adding a knob. They just didn't add it. The easiest way to add a knob is when you know what you want it to look like. If you change your mind, you change the knob. You can't do that with systems which hide the representation. >> Is that a problem? They supplied a format which *can* easily be used >> by other applications. Megaslop, by comparison, stores the >> information in proprietary format binary files. Theoretically you >> could save a few bytes by doing this (that was the argument I always >> used for doing it this way, anyway :-), but in practice I'd guess that >> Megaslop config files are larger even than the biggest X app-defaults >> files. > > (It took me quite some time to find out that you actually mean > 'Microsoft' when you write 'Megaslop'. IMO, this looks childish.) You're welcome to your opinion. > Yes, it's a problem. That's what I meant. I don't care about the > way the data is stored. I've designed a user interface with custom- > izable settings for the Amiga once and it also stored it's settings > in a text file. > > What I do care about, is indeed the fact that Joerg mentioned: the > inability to edit these settings with a preference editor. Why can't you do that? > If you have a graphical application, it's _stupid_ that you have to > edit a text file to alter something in the appearance of that > application. So fix it. I don't personally have a problem with it. If somebody built one of those stupid Microsoft card file config programs for X, I would certainly not use it. I don't have time to mess around with that kind of stuff. > I don't know if you people have ever read a book about how a user > interface should be constructed (I have), So have I. Which one of the 20 conflicting books did you read? > but you could learn a lot out of it. What? Once upon a time, before the advent of Microsoft Windows, there was a kind of UI standard with which hitting the Enter key would take you to the next field in a form. When you got to the end, it wouldn't wrap around, it would submit the form. How do I do that with *any* GUI? Of course, since we're talking GUIs, you still should have the option of selecting an individual field with a mouse. Most GUI standards place undue emphasis on the mouse. That's fine for people who can't type, but for those who can, it's a pain (in more than one sense. One day, a group of CTS sufferers will sue Microsoft for damage caused by the completely avoidable double click, and will win millions). >> The disadvantages of the binary files are obvious when you think about >> it: you need special programs to access them. I've never seen any >> such file which can store comments. The typical Megaslop config >> program shows you lots of "card file" menus, which effectively makes >> it impossible to keep an overview. Never mind that computers have >> replaced card files and the like--thanks to Megaslop, we still have >> their restrictions. > > Like I said, I don't care about the file format. It's totally > irrelevant. If your preference editor is good enough, you don't > need to know about the file format. If. I've never seen one which even comes close. > Further, I fail to see what the logical grouping of settings with > these "card files" has to do with losing the overview. There isn't > an overview. These are distinct things. If you fill in your gateway, > you don't need to be able to see what your DNS is. My sympathies. >> [Netscape configuration files] >> >> On the other hand, over half is comments, and you can use it to >> configure Netscrape without any other documentation. Show me how to >> do that with a Megaslop config file, even the text ones. > > Oh yes, mummy. I really really want to edit the file myself. No I > don't want to use the program itself for it. You're learning. > You're reasoning from the Unix point of view. You do everything > from a text file, so you want to be able to do that in Windows too. > Well, you can't and you shouldn't be able to do so, because the > average user (who is kept more in mind with Windows than with > Unix) will certainly screw it up. In May, I was teaching a class where all the "terminals" were PCs running Windows 3.x and some broken terminal emulator. I spent half a day trying to get one (and only one) of the things to connect to the host. At the end I searched the system, found the config file (which fortunately was in text format), and discovered that the IP address of the host had been entered with a trailing ]. It seems that I should have entered the IP address as [166.111.64.122], not 166.111.64.122. The configuration editor saw that I had left off the trailing ], and inserted it. No error message. No way to recognize the problem from the config screen (which didn't display the trailing ]). I suppose I should have reinstalled Windows. That seems to be the way to solve this kind of problem. You were saying? >>>> X is not a real graphical user interface as Windows is. Many >>> >>> Define `real'. X11 is a windows environment, nothing else. The >>> toolkits have to be provided separately. > > With 'real' I mean integrated. X is very modular and can do every- > thing the GUI from Windows can too, with proper programming. You > can choose your own window manager, alter the whole look-and-feel, > change the way the mouse behaves. > > But what it lacks is a common base that describes how programs > should work (and the professional Windows programs Hah! Oxymoron. > do work the same way), a file manager/Explorer like thing to move > your files around, drag-and-drop, the fact that every decently > written program behaves in the way you expect it to. Mac, Amiga, > Atari, Archimedes, and NeXT all have this. X and it's windows > managers don't. If that's what you mean by a "decently written program", I'm glad that X doesn't. >>>> applications are tty-oriented applications with extra X-support. >> >> Some are. Others aren't. Don't forget that character-oriented >> applications offer you a flexibility that no GUI can possibly offer. >> One of the biggest mistakes in the Megaslop environment is that this >> flexibility has been discarded because it's more difficult to learn. > > It isn't a mistake. This flexibility is a direct descendant of the > limits that a text-only environment imposes on you. If you wouldn't > have the flexibility, you would have nothing, compared to a GUI. > > The idea behind a GUI is to make it simple and consistent. Why > should one need extensive training to be able to operate a computer? > Why can't many people still program their VCR? Because the user > interface sucks. > > Sure, GUI's are hard to program and not as much fun as writing > a high-performance file system or device driver. But it's the > interface to the user and that's why they're so important. I don't know whether you've noticed--it looks as if you haven't--but a lot of Microsoft style GUI stuff is available for UNIX. Why don't people use it? Why don't I use it? Because it's simple. Sure, it's easy to learn, but it's too restrictive. >> Yup. There's no good way to represent errors graphically. > > Nonsense. So why don't they do it? >>> I've seen many win users re-installing their systems quite a number >>> of times. I couldn't imagine why i should re-install one of my >>> systems. The machine at home even has migrated a number of disks >>> already, without re-installation. >> >> This is a habit that a lot of people get in to, even with FreeBSD. I >> don't know how to explain to people that it's a bad idea. > > It isn't too difficult to totally mess up you Windows system. Why not? I thought these graphical config things were designed to stop just that. > So it might be the best idea to start from a know situation: the one > just after installing. That's a declaration of bankruptcy for the whole concept. > But say I accidently removed /etc and then rebooted, what would be > the best way to fix it? Re-installing could be an option. It would be a *lousy* option. I can't think of a worse one. Here are the correct answers: 1. Read in the backup 2. If you've been misbehaving and haven't made *any* backups, read it in from the CD-ROM. How can you possibly imagine that reinstallation can be of any help at all under these circumstances? > If I may conclude my points, all I can say that both systems have > their pro's and con's. I wouldn't be on this list if I were just > another Microsoft devotee. > > But you can nitpick as much as you want on MS, Windows and NT, > but some things just work better with them. Security in NT has > a better base (VMS) that in Unix, despite the security bugs that > reguraly show up. I don't know enough about this to offer my own views, but it's in complete contradiction to everything I've heard so far. > Another thing, not to be forgotten, is that very many people > use Windows 95 at the moment. It's pretty easy to couple it > with NT. So, for an intranet, NT is probably more suited than > Unix is. I wasn't just slamming NT. In fact, I think that NT is the second best operating system that Microsoft ever marketed. It's just that the rest is all even worse. > NT is something like five to ten years old. I don't expect all > the bugs to be out of it, also considering MS's strategy to > release first and fix bugs later. or never. > Unix had 25 years to mature. MS has 20,000 programmers and a lot of > cash. Linux is 5 years old. It has probably also 20,000 programmers and no cash. It seems a whole lot more stable than NT. > The stepover from 95 to NT 4.0 is pretty smooth. So expect to see > a lot of NT or it derivates in five years. The monopoly is pretty > scaring, but what can you do abot it? Unix isn't friendly enough > to appeal to a mass market. It also lacks options that have become > pretty standard by now. Noone, except some excep- tions, wants to > use a text interface anymore. What I noticed as the helpdesk at an > Internet Service Provider, is that the average customer becomes > less and less knowledgeable about computers, and this is a trend > that's continuing. Right. And Microsoft is actively helping. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 01:49:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA21073 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muffin.highwire.local (serialA3c.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21055 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.99.31] (robsmac.highwire.local [172.16.99.31]) by muffin.highwire.local (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06888; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:53:08 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:53:08 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: robmel@muffin.highwire.local Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199708290756.AAA16140@implode.root.com> References: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:39:37 PDT." <199708290739.AAA27357@wcarchive.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dg@root.com, "Root wcarchive.cdrom.com" From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 Cc: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com, tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jc@crl.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 12:56 am -0700 29/8/97, David Greenman wrote: >>_linux 16,883,914 15,968,346 915,568 67399 9245 8.40 >>14.41 >>_FreeBSD 13,021,223 13,011,260 9,962 54567 1315 6.48 >>10.51 I guess in order to keep FreeBSD up higher you should keep doing the 1 release per month thingy you tried earlier this year Robin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Melville, Addiction Information Services Nottingham Alcohol & Drug Team Tel: +44 (0)115 952 9478 Fax: +44 (0)115 952 9421 work: robmel@nadt.org.uk home: robmel@innotts.co.uk Pages: http://www.innotts.co.uk/~robmel (home page) http://www.innotts.co.uk/suba (UK substance misuse pages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 02:20:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA22681 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA22673 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA00485; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:20:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Joost Schuur cc: dg@root.com, "Root wcarchive.cdrom.com" , ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com, tech@cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org, jc@crl.com Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:29:30 CDT." <3.0.3.32.19970829042930.00c70d10@pants.onlinemagic.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:20:36 -0700 Message-ID: <481.872846436@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > it would appear the activision web site didn't list any other mirror sites > other than wcarchive for the whole day and even worse, one of their own ftp > sites > went down right after the release. i've supplied activision's webmaster a list > of additional ftp sites that carry the demo, so they can ease the load on > ftp.cdrom.com. They were probably running NT on that ftp server. Feel welcome to forward them a pointer to the FreeBSD web site along with your demo list. ;-) Jordan P.S. I also don't think that David meant this as a negative "oh no, Hexen hit our 2000 user limit!" sort of message which you should be worried or apologetic about - I think he's actually rather proud of that new transfer record. :) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 02:46:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA23828 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA23820 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id FAA27951; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:46:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Joost Schuur cc: dg@root.com, "Root wcarchive.cdrom.com" , ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com, tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jc@crl.com Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970829042930.00c70d10@pants.onlinemagic.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Joost Schuur wrote: > went down right after the release. i've supplied activision's webmaster a list > of additional ftp sites that carry the demo, so they can ease the load on > ftp.cdrom.com. EASE the load?! no, more more more! :) -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.2 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 03:25:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA25340 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA25331 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA26074; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28834; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:26:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:26:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Peter Korsten cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... In-Reply-To: <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > At one time, I was forced to switch off the system because I > accidently opened 1200 Explorers and the damn thing just wouldn't > crash. :) Odd. You couldn't just go $ kill -9 `ps -c | grep 'explorer' | awk '{print $1}'` It always works for me! -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 04:04:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA26937 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA26932 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16591; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708291107.EAA16591@implode.root.com> To: Joost Schuur cc: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com, tech@cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org, jc@crl.com Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:29:30 CDT." <3.0.3.32.19970829042930.00c70d10@pants.onlinemagic.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:07:14 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>The previous record of 185GB was set on June 26th. The extremely high total >>for idgames2 (and the cause of the new record) is due to the release of the >>"Hexen 2" game. We were at our 2000 user limit almost immediately when the >>game was put up (about 12:15PM PDT) and stayed at the limit for the rest of >>the day. > > it would appear the activision web site didn't list any other mirror sites >other than wcarchive for the whole day and even worse, one of their own ftp >sites >went down right after the release. i've supplied activision's webmaster a list >of additional ftp sites that carry the demo, so they can ease the load on >ftp.cdrom.com. As others have said, this isn't a problem and I'm not the least bit unhappy about it. The load does point out that we will need to perform another hardware upgrade at some point, however - on a "normal" day we often have around 1600 users on at any time, so it doesn't take much to put us at the 2000 limit. It would be nice if we had enough reserve capacity to handle special days like yesterday. I estimate that we could have handled everyone (not turned anyone away) if the limit had instead been around 3000. The main problem is lack of main memory, but we're pretty much out of CPU cycles at 2000 users as well. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 04:05:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA27001 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA26991 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02025; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00309; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:06:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:06:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <19970829025323.52918@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > Some people build their own stereos, some customize their car, > some need to be able to totally customize their computer. But > they're a minority. Everyone customizes these things. It's simply how they customize them which separates the groups. One group does whatever customization is designed to be done, and the other group decides to ignore the designed interface, take it apart and customize it. > Like I said, I don't care about the file format. It's totally > irrelevant. If your preference editor is good enough, you don't > need to know about the file format. It is not irrelevant. What, for example, do you do when you can't start your preference editor because its preferences are terribly wrong. How many times haven't you been saved (assuming a Win3+ or Win95 system) by being able to edit win.ini & co from an MSDOS prompt with EDIT.COM since Windows wouldn't run anymore. There are also, I believe, some things for which it is difficult to make preference editors "good enough". Comments, automatic editting (eg. with sed(1)), for two. And no, simply thinking from a Windows point of view does not obviate the need for sed. GUIs aren't that powerful (_yet_). > You're reasoning from the Unix point of view. You do everything > from a text file, so you want to be able to do that in Windows too. > Well, you can't and you shouldn't be able to do so, because the > average user (who is kept more in mind with Windows than with > Unix) will certainly screw it up. Fix the damn user. If a user is stupid, they are going to screw things up, no matter what. GIGO is a universal law, and there's simply no getting around that. A smart user will recognize when they don't know wtf they're doing. The stupid user keeps bumbling-on, and there's no way for anything, either a program working from a text init file, or not. It's not possible to screen-out every wrong input, because if there was only one right input, we wouldn't need any input... > But what it lacks is a common base that describes how programs > should work (and the professional Windows programs do work the same Yes, one hundred times over. X is not to be confused with a GUI. The MIT people wrote what J referred to as a windows environment, not a GUI. Incidentally, I don't blame the lack of a common GUI on it being "uninteresting to program", but rather on the fact that GUIs are very personal things and its difficult to get any two people to agree on "This is The Way It Should Be". Even still there are packages for writing GUIs, my personal favourite being Tk, but to get user-interface writers to agree on one seems impossible. Some people don't like the GNU organization, but here would be a perfect opportunity for them to show what their value is. They have (esp. for their size) a tremendous amount of influence and I would love to see them say "This is the GUI we will use, and that's all that there is to it. ". Perhaps that will happen with OpenStep. > It isn't a mistake. This flexibility is a direct descendant of the > limits that a text-only environment imposes on you. If you wouldn't > have the flexibility, you would have nothing, compared to a GUI. Then write a GUI which has the flexibility. > The idea behind a GUI is to make it simple and consistent. Why > should one need extensive training to be able to operate a computer? > Why can't many people still program their VCR? Because the user > interface sucks. I think this is a myth. Most people can program their VCRs, I think. Of course, I do agree --- the user-interface for some VCRs does suck. > scaring, but what can you do abot it? Unix isn't friendly enough > to appeal to a mass market. It also lacks options that have become And then there is the small group of masochists which it attracts for exactly that reason. ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 05:56:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01635 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01630 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708291254.IAA10500@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:58:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <19970829025323.52918@grendel.IAEhv.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > And, yes, Unix is more versatile. But do you also add extra functions > to your television? Aren't you bored with those standard boxes > everybody else has? Or do you customize your car? You just equated a computer to a television. Welcome to /dev/null. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 07:01:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04937 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04906; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:01:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708291401.HAA04906@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... To: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl (Peter Korsten) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl> from "Peter Korsten" at Aug 29, 97 01:14:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten wrote: > [snip....other information about NT robustness] > At one time, I was forced to switch off the system because I > accidently opened 1200 Explorers and the damn thing just wouldn't > crash. :) ftp.cdrom.com uses 1 FreeBSD box to serve 150GB of ftp dat each day to the Internet. MS uses 44 NT boxes to serve 350GB of http data to the Internet each day over 8 DS3 (45Mbps) lines. this information is courtesy http://www.microsoft.com/syspro/technet/tnnews/features/mscom.htm dated may 8th 1997. http is more communications intensive than ftp. and microsoft claims that their systems have a lot of unused capacity to handle spikes. nonetheless the ratio of 44:1 speaks for itself. a microsoft employe on the FreeBSD mailing lists asked me about these numbers a couple months ago. he claimed that they are out-of-date. i asked for new numbers. never heard back from him. are you still there? are new numbers available? FreeBSD ms computers 1 44 ram 1/2 GB 19.2GB disk 142GB 2048GB+ FreeBSD? you *cant* buy good this good ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 07:37:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07116 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wup.de (ns.wup.de [149.237.200.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07109 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by mail.wup.de (8.8.6/8.8.7) id QAA18770; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:37:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970829163731.16546@wup.de> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:37:31 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: About our server .... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 X-phone: Wiechers & Partner +49 2173 3964 161 X-fax: Wiechers & Partner +49 2173 3964 222 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just for fun ... http://www.wup.de/server/about.html Andreas /// -- Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH phone: +49 2173 3964 161 Support Unix - Andreas Klemm fax: +49 2173 3964 222 An der alten Ziegelei 2 mail1: andreas.klemm@wup.de D-40789 Monheim mail2: andreas@FreeBSD.ORG From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 07:51:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07929 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07915 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13593; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:51:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:51:32 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Peter Korsten cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... In-Reply-To: <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > So, Pedro, get out of your ivory tower and check your facts before > you start making statements from other people's experience. There's > a world out there that's using these products. You may not like it, > but you can't get around it either. Devil's advocate here, how about when other people's experience matches your own? The part of the article that struck home with me was about (mis)management of system files: In the most recent case, an update to the bank order-entry software I use, which does nothing other than display forms and write files, modified thirty-seven files in my C:\WINNT directory tree (without asking for confirmation first), then crashed when attempting to import the database from the previous version with a numeric error code from ODBC. Customer support for problems like this in these enlightened times seems to have converged onto the All Purpose Answer: "Reformat your hard drive, then re-install Windows and all your applications". It isn't necessairly Microsoft's fault that this is the norm rather than the exception, but they do set a precedent for it with how their own applications install. In the windows world there has historically been no separation of application and system filespaces and it doesn't seem to be changing for the better very fast. Without that separation the instability describe in the article is inevitable. The reason is exactly the why user processes are not allowed to muck around with the kernel's memory. The other thing that irks me--and it seems to be a more general PCism than a Microsoft-ism--is that installation instructions of even the most trivial software so often include the last step "Reboot your computer". I'm sorry, but for a workstation that is also a server, that is just isn't acceptable. (Granted, there are some justified cases, such as installing new hardware....) -john From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 08:14:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09251 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09246 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08864; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:14:45 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:14:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708291514.JAA08864@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: dg@root.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-Reply-To: <199708291107.EAA16591@implode.root.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19970829042930.00c70d10@pants.onlinemagic.net> <199708291107.EAA16591@implode.root.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > limit. It would be nice if we had enough reserve capacity to handle special > days like yesterday. I estimate that we could have handled everyone (not > turned anyone away) if the limit had instead been around 3000. The main > problem is lack of main memory, but we're pretty much out of CPU cycles at > 2000 users as well. *chanting* SMP, SMP, SMP... Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 08:25:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09710 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09702 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11093; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:37:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199708291437.KAA11093@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: About our server .... In-Reply-To: <19970829163731.16546@wup.de> from Andreas Klemm at "Aug 29, 97 04:37:31 pm" To: andreas@wup.de (Andreas Klemm) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > http://www.wup.de/server/about.html Your "Deutsche Seiten" link is broken off the home page. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 08:27:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09788 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09782 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA02017; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:27:41 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708291527.KAA02017@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... In-Reply-To: <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl> from Peter Korsten at "Aug 29, 97 01:14:10 am" To: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl (Peter Korsten) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:27:41 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten said: > > So, Pedro, get out of your ivory tower and check your facts before > you start making statements from other people's experience. There's > a world out there that's using these products. You may not like it, > but you can't get around it either. > > I know I'm sounding like 'Amazing Discoveries' here. I'm not a > Microsoft advocate - far from that - but I think there's a lot of > either ignorance or blindsightness about this firm and it's products > in the Unix world. > I am a "people" who also has worked with NT (and is an NT developer.) All I can say is that on the vast majority of hardware that I have seen, NT just cannot hack a reasonable load. Also, the machines at the place where I used to work would crash quite regularly running both an interactive (low pressure production load), and also during development. We are talking top-notch hardware here, like ASUS MB's, top of the line HP machines, SuperMicro MB's, etc. I don't know of ONE machine that didn't crash (fairly often). This is on Pentiums, PPros, and 486's, with or without parity or ECC memory. BTW, that is at a company that STILL newly decides to use NT as their main desktop OS... Go figure? Sounds like a ringing endorsement of mediocre software. Sounds like the "pointy haired boss" liked the pretty colors. I am not unbiased, but the above anecdotal evidence is accurate. -- John dyson@iquest.net From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 08:46:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10629 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10621 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18611; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708291548.IAA18611@implode.root.com> To: Nate Williams cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:14:45 MDT." <199708291514.JAA08864@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:48:29 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> limit. It would be nice if we had enough reserve capacity to handle special >> days like yesterday. I estimate that we could have handled everyone (not >> turned anyone away) if the limit had instead been around 3000. The main >> problem is lack of main memory, but we're pretty much out of CPU cycles at >> 2000 users as well. > >*chanting* SMP, SMP, SMP... > > With the work that Steve is doing right now in leveraging the spl* functions to allow CPUs to process interrupts simultaneously while another CPU is executing system call code, going to SMP on wcarchive is a definate possibility. I'd say this would be at least four months out. however. Basically, the decision to go SMP on wcarchive is simple: It has to help more than it hurts. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 09:19:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12228 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12223 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13804; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:19:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:19:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber Reply-To: John Fieber To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Peter Korsten , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > editting (eg. with sed(1)), for two. And no, simply thinking > from a Windows point of view does not obviate the need for sed. > GUIs aren't that powerful (_yet_). ...Or, GUIs solve different sorts of problems so the comparison is possibly inappropriate.... > Fix the damn user. If a user is stupid, they are going to screw > things up, no matter what. GIGO is a universal law, and there's > simply no getting around that. A smart user will recognize when > they don't know wtf they're doing. The stupid user keeps > bumbling-on, and there's no way for anything, either a program > working from a text init file, or not. It's not possible to > screen-out every wrong input, because if there was only one right > input, we wouldn't need any input... You make sweeping generalizations about user intelligence. For example, imagine an architect who is a virtuoso with a piece of CAD software. They have taken the time to become a smart and sophisticate user within the domain where computer and architecture intersect. From the point of view of the busy architect, the smaller this intersection the better so long as the benefits of the technology can be had. If forced out of that small overlap area, the architect may look and feel like an incompetent bumbling idiot. The driving philosophy of the Star/Lisa/Macintosh lineage was to maximize application domain benefit while minimizing computer domain expertise requirement. The Unix philosophy is closer to maximizing application domain benefit by maximizing computer domain expertise. Both approaches are effective, but it shouldn't come as any surprise that the potential market for the former is much larger. Not only that, there probably isn't much overlap between the markets. It is also worth noting that the Unix tool and pipe model doesn't map into a GUI world very well. The knee-jerk reaction is to discount the GUI world as being inferior, without making an effort to understand it. Alternatively, attempts are made to apply Unix tool philosophies to the GUI world, witness dozens X toolkits. But, while Unix tools can be put to good use in isolation a widget is nothing unless embedded in an application. The Unix philosophy tends to leave that last step--the application development--up to the end user, the problem being that developing a good interactive GUI application is a lot harder for most traditionally trained programmers than developing a good batch-oriented command line tool. The programming isn't hard, the design is; it has absolutely nothing to do with anything you will find in any algorithms or data structures text. You have to venture into graphic design, industrial engineering and psychology. Effective small can be built built on a good understanding of algorithms and data structures. Effective GUI applications are built on a good understanding of application domains and the capabilities of the target user. Now, I want to have my cake and eat it to, namely high quality GUI applications that allow me to concentrate on the task at hand instead of always having little bits of the computing domain intruding, yet be able to drop down into "small tool" world when I need to do something too unusual or rare to warrant designing a GUI for it. Sort of a Macintosh/Unix hybrid like the Next but with enough market share to attract good application developers. Sorry, I sort of rambled.... -john From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 09:32:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12778 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12770 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id JAA27544; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:32:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708291632.JAA27544@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 References: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:39:37 PDT." <199708290739.AAA27357@wcarchive.cdrom.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Bytes transferred : 200,910,987,981 If I did the math right, that's an average of a bit more than 2MBytes/sec. average throughput. (I am assuming this is for a 24 hour period.) That means it has surprassed a normal ethernet, but has plenty of room for a fast ethernet. If it's still connected by 100Mbps connection, it still has plenty of room. So what's the thing doing with a wimpy 2000 user limit? :) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 09:59:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14201 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14186 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20232; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708291701.KAA20232@implode.root.com> To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:32:14 PDT." <199708291632.JAA27544@kithrup.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:01:16 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Bytes transferred : 200,910,987,981 > >If I did the math right, that's an average of a bit more than 2MBytes/sec. >average throughput. (I am assuming this is for a 24 hour period.) 2.3MB/sec, and actually it isn't for a 24 hour period. Daytime is always much busier than nighttime and you also didn't account for packet overhead and other things. The real number is about 38-40Mbps during the day, or roughly 40% of a fast ethernet. >That means it has surprassed a normal ethernet, but has plenty of room for a >fast ethernet. If it's still connected by 100Mbps connection, it still has >plenty of room. Yes, it still has plenty of room. The limitation at the moment is Sprint and MCI who don't seem to think they need to upgrade their overloaded DS3 circuits at the PacBell NAP. >So what's the thing doing with a wimpy 2000 user limit? :) It's what limits us from higher data rates. Most people only have 33Kbps modems (or worse), and it takes a whole lot of those to fill a fast ethernet. In a normal day, 80% of the people currently logged in are idle at any given time - only about 20% are actively transfering files. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 09:59:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14263 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod1.logic.it [195.120.151.17] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14221 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1065 invoked by uid 1000); 29 Aug 1997 16:52:29 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:52:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: "M. L. Dodson" cc: fbsdlist@federation.addy.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Satanic logo In-Reply-To: <199708291415.JAA15152@beowulf.utmb.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to -chat. As often happens with FreeBSDers, discussion gets really interesting ;-)] On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, M. L. Dodson wrote: [..] > > I do love our daemon, Chuck. My ****big**** dream is that > > someone will draw a sexy "daemonette" too ;-) > > > > From chapter 31 of the "Unix System Administration Handbook" by > > Nemeth (a very good book) : > > > > The words "daemon" and "demon" both come from the same root, > > but "daemon" is an older form and its meaning is somewhat > > different. A daemon is an attendant spirit that influences > > one's character or personality. Daemons aren't minions of > > good or evil; they are creatures od independent thought and > > will. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both > > daemons and demons. > > > > It is also likely to have some relationship to Maxwell's demon > (daemon?), methinks. Yea, surely! I forgot it! ;-) And, I'll bet on it, it's a daemon, not a demon ;-). We in Italy have the same distinction between daemon/demon, but the word is the same: "demone". The difference is in where you put the accent. > This is the guy who monitors the shuttered hole between two gas > vessels, opening it when a hot molecule approaches from the left > vessel and closing it when a hot molecule approaches from the > right (or vice versa). Net is a temperature difference which can > be used to run a heat engine => perpetual motion. (Don't worry; > Leo Szilard used information theory to prove that it takes more > energy to run the demon than you get out. Second law is safe.) I don't worry at all, since I do love daemons ;-) Also, it should be nice a party with daemons, daemonettes, witches and fairies ;-) As you surely know, whitches were *beautiful* women, it was the christian religion, to fight the pagan one, which said witches were horribles and evil creatures. (Please no flames about religions here. I don't want to offend anyone.) Marco From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 10:01:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14437 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14395 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem17.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.47]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA11574; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:02:27 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <34071408.BDD@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:25:12 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Korsten CC: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... References: <199708242230.PAA13822@merchant.tns.net> <34039989.2770@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970829011410.35329@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten wrote: > > Autodesk, are they still in business then? > Do you really think airplanes are designed with M$-Paintbrush ? :-) > > So, Pedro, get out of your ivory tower and check your facts before > you start making statements from other people's experience. There's > a world out there that's using these products. You may not like it, > but you can't get around it either. > I'm not making any statements, just quoting. I only have one suggestion; find out about the VALS (Values And LifestyleS) chart and see how it applies to your life. > I know I'm sounding like 'Amazing Discoveries' here. I'm not a > Microsoft advocate - far from that - but I think there's a lot of > either ignorance or blindsightness about this firm and it's products > in the Unix world. > BTW, I know you're not a Microsoft advocate, they usually don't subscribe to this lists, but remember M$ advocates never admit they are ;-). cheers, Pedro. > - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 10:18:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15517 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user21434@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15491 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 29 Aug 1997 17:21:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:21:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-Reply-To: <199708291632.JAA27544@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > >> Bytes transferred : 200,910,987,981 > > If I did the math right, that's an average of a bit more than 2MBytes/sec. > average throughput. (I am assuming this is for a 24 hour period.) > > That means it has surprassed a normal ethernet, but has plenty of room for a > fast ethernet. If it's still connected by 100Mbps connection, it still has > plenty of room. I feel sorry for those hard disks... I assume they are not Seagates if they crank that hard and still aren't toast! Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 11:06:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18469 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18463 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21065 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708291809.LAA21065@implode.root.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:09:12 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 2.3MB/sec, and actually it isn't for a 24 hour period. Daytime is always I need to clarify what I meant by this: The 200.9GB total is for a 24 hour period, but the average of 2.3MB/sec is misleading because of the large (2:1) difference between daytime and nighttime rates. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 11:10:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18699 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18694 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21138; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708291812.LAA21138@implode.root.com> To: Atipa cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:21:06 MDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:12:47 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > >> >> Bytes transferred : 200,910,987,981 >> >> If I did the math right, that's an average of a bit more than 2MBytes/sec. >> average throughput. (I am assuming this is for a 24 hour period.) >> >> That means it has surprassed a normal ethernet, but has plenty of room for a >> fast ethernet. If it's still connected by 100Mbps connection, it still has >> plenty of room. > >I feel sorry for those hard disks... I assume they are not Seagates if >they crank that hard and still aren't toast! We've had more trouble with Quantum Grand Prix's than we've had with the few Seagate drives we have. Nearly all of the Grand Prix's have failed at least once. None of the Quantum Atlas's have failed, however. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 11:14:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19034 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user22368@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19029 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 29 Aug 1997 18:17:59 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:17:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: David Greenman cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-Reply-To: <199708291812.LAA21138@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, David Greenman wrote: > >On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > >> >> Bytes transferred : 200,910,987,981 > >> > >> If I did the math right, that's an average of a bit more than 2MBytes/sec. > >> average throughput. (I am assuming this is for a 24 hour period.) > >> > >> That means it has surprassed a normal ethernet, but has plenty of room for a > >> fast ethernet. If it's still connected by 100Mbps connection, it still has > >> plenty of room. > > > >I feel sorry for those hard disks... I assume they are not Seagates if > >they crank that hard and still aren't toast! > > We've had more trouble with Quantum Grand Prix's than we've had with the > few Seagate drives we have. Nearly all of the Grand Prix's have failed at > least once. None of the Quantum Atlas's have failed, however. > Grand Prix drives are admittedly bad. Especially those full-height 4.3GB 100W ovens! As a vendor, we have a slang part number for the Seagate Barracudas: The Seagate Boomerang. We always seem to see them again after we ship them out to our customers! (usually within 2 months) Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 12:22:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22742 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22727 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id VAA12877; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:15:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07156; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:59:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970829205940.31892@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:59:40 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Peter Dufault Cc: Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About our server .... References: <19970829163731.16546@wup.de> <199708291437.KAA11093@hda.hda.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708291437.KAA11093@hda.hda.com>; from Peter Dufault on Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 10:37:31AM -0400 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 10:37:31AM -0400, Peter Dufault wrote: > > http://www.wup.de/server/about.html > > Your "Deutsche Seiten" link is broken off the home page. Thanks, the other Web Pages are done by the Marketing using Fusion .. so the people are publishing now like hell ;-)) Let's see how well they do ;-) -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 12:57:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24649 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24644 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA28110; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:56:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:32:14 PDT." <199708291632.JAA27544@kithrup.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:56:51 -0700 Message-ID: <28106.872884611@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If I did the math right, that's an average of a bit more than 2MBytes/sec. > average throughput. (I am assuming this is for a 24 hour period.) You assume incorrectly - it's for a 12 hour period. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 13:20:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26022 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26016 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id NAA12844 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:20:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708292020.NAA12844@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> If I did the math right, that's an average of a bit more than 2MBytes/sec. >> average throughput. (I am assuming this is for a 24 hour period.) >You assume incorrectly - it's for a 12 hour period. :) Then it's closer to 5MBytes/sec average throughput. Even more impressive ;). Sean. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 21:03:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17076 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17063 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA00458; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:05:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:05:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708300405.WAA00458@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, > that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the > office. (For the insiders: color scheme Rainy Day, background Blue > Monday, automatically hiding taskbar on top, small icons, and > shortcuts to all drives on my desktop, together with Netscape and > the mandatory icons.) Ooh, I'm impressed. Now set it up to use a focus-follows-pointer, don't top on focus model. Right. You can't. Bill likes click-to-focus, focus-window-on-top, so that is obviously *the right way.* You can move the "start" menu -- big deal. Mine just pops up when I click MB3, so it's always where I need it, and out of my face when I don't need it. The MS Windows "desktop manager" sucks, no two ways about it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 22:14:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19348 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19343 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA22514; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:14:05 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA16775; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:44:04 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970830144403.35719@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:44:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> <199708300405.WAA00458@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199708300405.WAA00458@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 10:05:30PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Aug 29, 1997 at 10:05:30PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >> Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, >> that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the >> office. (For the insiders: color scheme Rainy Day, background Blue >> Monday, automatically hiding taskbar on top, small icons, and >> shortcuts to all drives on my desktop, together with Netscape and >> the mandatory icons.) > > Ooh, I'm impressed. Now set it up to use a focus-follows-pointer, don't > top on focus model. Right. You can't. Bill likes click-to-focus, > focus-window-on-top, so that is obviously *the right way.* Blecchhh. > The MS Windows "desktop manager" sucks, no two ways about it. But it's fast, now, after they put it in the kernel :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 22:19:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19566 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19542 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00694; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:47:28 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708300517.OAA00694@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Atipa cc: David Greenman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:17:59 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:47:24 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Grand Prix drives are admittedly bad. Especially those full-height 4.3GB > 100W ovens! As a vendor, we have a slang part number for the Seagate > Barracudas: The Seagate Boomerang. We always seem to see them again after > we ship them out to our customers! (usually within 2 months) This is because most customers are too stupid to mount the 'cuda properly. If you read the documentation, and cool them as they require, they were and are one of the most reliable 7200rpm disks around. They were also the first by a long shot; something worth bearing in mind before carping about them. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 22:35:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20176 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20169 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-8.cybercom.net [209.21.137.8]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA02675 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970830013251.009e6dc0@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:32:51 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! In-Reply-To: <199708300405.WAA00458@obie.softweyr.ml.org> References: <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:05 PM 8/29/97 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, > > that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the > > office. > >Ooh, I'm impressed. Now set it up to use a focus-follows-pointer, don't >top on focus model. Right. You can't. Bill likes click-to-focus, >focus-window-on-top, so that is obviously *the right way.* You can move >the "start" menu -- big deal. Mine just pops up when I click MB3, so >it's always where I need it, and out of my face when I don't need it. >The MS Windows "desktop manager" sucks, no two ways about it. Actually, W.P., this is possible in both NT and 95 with a utility called X-Mouse. (I guess you know why it's so named.) And there are utilities that let you pop up the Start menu contents by clicking anywhere on the open desktop or the taskbar tray. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 29 22:36:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20250 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20245 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29851; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708300538.WAA29851@implode.root.com> To: Mike Smith cc: Atipa , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/29 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:47:24 +0930." <199708300517.OAA00694@word.smith.net.au> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:38:15 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Grand Prix drives are admittedly bad. Especially those full-height 4.3GB >> 100W ovens! As a vendor, we have a slang part number for the Seagate >> Barracudas: The Seagate Boomerang. We always seem to see them again after >> we ship them out to our customers! (usually within 2 months) > >This is because most customers are too stupid to mount the 'cuda >properly. If you read the documentation, and cool them as they >require, they were and are one of the most reliable 7200rpm disks >around. They were also the first by a long shot; something worth >bearing in mind before carping about them. For the record, in the Seagate category we have two Barracudas and two hawks on wcarchive. Neither of the Barracudas have failed, but both of the hawks have failed. Cooling is definately not a problem in our equipment - all of the drives run cold to just slightly warm. As for the Quantums, all of the Grand Prixs have failed (something like 10 of them) and none of the Atlas or Atlas II have failed (I think we have about 8 of these). We also have 5 Micropolis 9.1GB drives...one of those has failed. In my experiance, drives tend to either fail within a few months after being put into service or last 'forever'; it's rare to have a drive fail after a year or two of operation. Of all of the replacement drives that we've gotten, we've had only one of the replacements fail - a Grand Prix. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 30 00:23:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA24084 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24079 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01178 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708300725.AAA01178@implode.root.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/30 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:15:34 PDT." <199708300715.AAA22343@wcarchive.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:25:41 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Another new record for wcarchive: > Bytes transferred : 228,772,401,772 ... > Total FTP HTTP FTP HTTP Total Total >Archive Name Bytes(k) Bytes(k) Bytes(k) Files Files %Bytes %Files >-------------- ------------ ----------- ----------- ------ ------ ------ ------ >_idgames2 106,486,980 98,445,834 8,041,145 33852 20002 46.55 9.28 >_simtelnet 24,922,155 16,669,610 8,252,544 21666 22400 10.89 7.59 >_games 24,459,541 24,263,307 196,233 15541 1922 10.69 3.01 >_FreeBSD 18,733,660 18,714,513 19,146 94677 1555 8.19 16.58 >_linux 17,392,552 16,808,852 583,699 73312 7086 7.60 13.85 >_idgames 8,010,736 7,294,371 716,365 10457 6308 3.50 2.89 >_demos 6,961,353 4,175,776 2,785,576 14505 39853 3.04 9.36 >_gamesdomain 6,246,029 6,204,361 41,668 1110 156 2.73 0.22 >_windows 3,257,757 2,280,271 977,486 3810 3346 1.42 1.23 >_povray 2,491,997 2,446,836 45,160 2973 574 1.09 0.61 >_XFree86 1,119,192 1,109,122 10,070 1207 114 0.49 0.23 ... >-------------- ------------ ----------- ----------- ------ ------ ------ ------ >80 archives 228,772,365 204,866,772 23,905,560 314696 265777 ~100.0 ~100.0 It'll be difficult to top this one. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 30 00:41:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA27333 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27317 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA24095; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:40:59 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA17951; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:10:57 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970830171057.16935@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:10:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: dg@root.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/30 References: <199708300715.AAA22343@wcarchive.cdrom.com> <199708300725.AAA01178@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199708300725.AAA01178@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Sat, Aug 30, 1997 at 12:25:41AM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 30, 1997 at 12:25:41AM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > Another new record for wcarchive: > >> Bytes transferred : 228,772,401,772 > ... >> Total FTP HTTP FTP HTTP Total Total >> Archive Name Bytes(k) Bytes(k) Bytes(k) Files Files %Bytes %Files >> -------------- ------------ ----------- ----------- ------ ------ ------ ------ >> _idgames2 106,486,980 98,445,834 8,041,145 33852 20002 46.55 9.28 >> _simtelnet 24,922,155 16,669,610 8,252,544 21666 22400 10.89 7.59 >> _games 24,459,541 24,263,307 196,233 15541 1922 10.69 3.01 >> _FreeBSD 18,733,660 18,714,513 19,146 94677 1555 8.19 16.58 >> _linux 17,392,552 16,808,852 583,699 73312 7086 7.60 13.85 >> _idgames 8,010,736 7,294,371 716,365 10457 6308 3.50 2.89 >> _demos 6,961,353 4,175,776 2,785,576 14505 39853 3.04 9.36 >> _gamesdomain 6,246,029 6,204,361 41,668 1110 156 2.73 0.22 >> _windows 3,257,757 2,280,271 977,486 3810 3346 1.42 1.23 >> _povray 2,491,997 2,446,836 45,160 2973 574 1.09 0.61 >> _XFree86 1,119,192 1,109,122 10,070 1207 114 0.49 0.23 > ... >> -------------- ------------ ----------- ----------- ------ ------ ------ ------ >> 80 archives 228,772,365 204,866,772 23,905,560 314696 265777 ~100.0 ~100.0 > > It'll be difficult to top this one. Why? At this rate you'll hit 400 GB by the end of the week. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 30 03:21:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01018 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA00989 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA03315; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708301020.DAA03315@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: dg@root.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/08/30 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:25:41 PDT." <199708300725.AAA01178@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:20:10 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of David Greenman : > Another new record for wcarchive: > > > Bytes transferred : 228,772,401,772 Cool, I downloaded hexen2 and had a ball with it with my Voodoo Graphics based board, Diamond Monsterd 3d 8) It felt like a video arcade game much better than quake! Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 30 04:11:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA12474 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 04:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA12464 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 04:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA05940; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:10:56 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:10:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199708301110.NAA05940@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: The Classiest Man Alive CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: The Classiest Man Alive's message of Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:32:51 -0400 Subject: Re: ATT Unix for Windows ! References: <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> <3.0.3.32.19970830013251.009e6dc0@cybercom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > At 10:05 PM 8/29/97 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > Talking about desktops: I have a very personal desktop with NT, > > > that looks totally different from what everybody else uses at the > > > office. > > > >Ooh, I'm impressed. Now set it up to use a focus-follows-pointer, don't > >top on focus model. Right. You can't. Bill likes click-to-focus, > >focus-window-on-top, so that is obviously *the right way.* You can move > >the "start" menu -- big deal. Mine just pops up when I click MB3, so > >it's always where I need it, and out of my face when I don't need it. > >The MS Windows "desktop manager" sucks, no two ways about it. > > Actually, W.P., this is possible in both NT and 95 with a utility called > X-Mouse. Oh? When did this start working in NT? I haven't checked the last three or four months (I was finally able to switch jobs and chuck out NT in favor of pure FreeBSD[1]), but before that I checked _often_ (I hate click to front). Win95 only, even after flaming. [1] I miss only one thing - Eudora. For handling personal mail Eudora is wonderful - for mailing-lists, I prefer Gnus. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 30 10:55:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26581 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from punt-1.mail.demon.net (relay-13.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26575 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from longacre.demon.co.uk ([158.152.156.24]) by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa1323718; 30 Aug 97 18:35 BST From: Michael Searle Message-ID: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rumors of the death of Unix have been greatly exaggerated... References: Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:56:56 BST X-Mailer: Offlite 0.09 / Termite Internet for Acorn RISC OS Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: >> At one time, I was forced to switch off the system because I accidently >> opened 1200 Explorers and the damn thing just wouldn't crash. :) > Odd. You couldn't just go > $ kill -9 `ps -c | grep 'explorer' | awk '{print $1}'` > It always works for me! Hmm. killall -9 explorer? -- Michael Searle - csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 30 16:19:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07181 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07175 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id BAA02616 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:15:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02433; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:04:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970831010422.26928@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:04:22 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: rc5 crack effort @vex.net, the new v2b4 client has become faster ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The new v2b4 client has become faster ! Look at my new results http://www.vex.net/rsa/table.phtml -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 30 17:39:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09717 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09703 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA03408; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:41:23 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:41:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708310041.SAA03408@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Peter Korsten CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft the GUI King (was Re: ATT Unix for Windows) In-Reply-To: <19970829025323.52918@grendel.IAEhv.nl> References: <199708251245.WAA23142@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> <19970825204932.12036@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <34020362.7DB1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970825224258.55928@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970826083051.FR52594@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970826235525.22143@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970827093336.NX00626@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828002532.43939@grendel.IAEhv.nl> <19970828083703.OY21311@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970828174348.17499@lemis.com> <19970829025323.52918@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten writes: > What I do care about, is indeed the fact that Joerg mentioned: the > inability to edit these settings with a preference editor. If you > have a graphical application, it's _stupid_ that you have to edit > a text file to alter something in the appearance of that application. > > I don't know if you people have ever read a book about how a user > interface should be constructed (I have), but you could learn a > lot out of it. I've read several, and even written one: a standard for GUI development at a previous employer. Most of the GUI applications available for X11, Windows, and Macintosh are pure trash developed by people who had a bunch of features to present and absolutely no idea of how to present them to the user in a meaningful manner. One of the great disservices Microsoft has done to computer users of the world is to give us MS-Word as an example of how not to write a graphical application. Word has some 10,000 features and function points, and yet most users of it haven't yet figured out how to set tabs or make a table. No, I'm not kidding, almost every Word document I get from someone other than myself has people lining up columns of numbers with the space bar and wondering why they don't quite line up. (My wife, a talented technical writer, tells only programmers use paragraph tags in Word, writers are too technophobic to "program" a paragraph style.) Good thing Microsoft developed that fancy table tool, huh? I've even seen documents where the page headers and footers were typed into the body of the document! And yet these documents were created on a user interface with dozens of icons, pull down menu items, tabbed dialogs with combo boxes, check boxes, radio buttons, you name it. When using the default interface on Word, nearly one half of the visible screen is taken up with graphical gew-gaws that mean *nothing* to the average user, as opposed to the text that is their actual work. As evidence of this great disservice visited upon is by Microsoft, I offer the "App Wizard" in VC++, and the on-line documentation in MSDN. Unlike related tomes, such as "Inside Macintosh," MSDN has no information at all on how to present visual information to the user in a matter that increases his understanding of the problem at hand. Instead, they offer canned organizations for certain menu items which may or may not apply at all to your application. As an example, why would a graphics viewer application have a "file" menu on it? Graphics viewers don't work with files, they work with pictures, so why don't they have "Picture" menus instead? You see: Picture->New, Picture->Save, Picture->View, etc. Why does the picture viewing application have to call these File->New, File->Save, and File->Open? Most Windows applications are developed by people who just don't have any idea how bad their application is, because they're doing it exactly the same way everyone else is. Of course, to paraphrase my mother, in this case everyone else is running off the cliff. At the very least, GUI designers should read the seminal works in the areas of graphics (Foley and Van Dam) and human-computer interaction (Card, Moran, and Newell). If you think you GUIs have nothing to do with cognitive psychology or human motor skills, you're probably mistaken. For a more direct look at modern computer interfaces, and refreshing viewpoint on how bad we are doing with the silly "desktop" metaphor, see Bruce Tognazzini's book on software engineering. > You're reasoning from the Unix point of view. You do everything > from a text file, so you want to be able to do that in Windows too. > Well, you can't and you shouldn't be able to do so, because the > average user (who is kept more in mind with Windows than with > Unix) will certainly screw it up. Obviously you don't read Windows-oriented magazines; they are stuffed every month with "tips" on how to make 95 and NT behave in reasonable ways by editing the registry directly, because Microsoft did not have the foresight to put the settings in question in a GUI. Or, more likely, they did put them in a GUI, but they are buried somewhere so non-intuitive that *nobody* can or will configure them that way. So, we arrive at the conclusion that the "big step forward" in system administration on NT vs. UNIX is that the entire configuration is buried in this undecipherable, non-searchable "registry" that NT seems to wantonly destroy once a quarter. > But what it lacks is a common base that describes how programs > should work (and the professional Windows programs do work the same > way), a file manager/Explorer like thing to move your files around, > drag-and-drop, the fact that every decently written program behaves > in the way you expect it to. Mac, Amiga, Atari, Archimedes, and > NeXT all have this. X and it's windows managers don't. Bullshit. Apparently you've never heard of Motif, or of CDE. You can argue they are too little too late, but you cannot reasonably argue "X" doesn't have drag-n-drop or a file manager, that just isn't true. The difference between X and Windows is that you can opt out of the standard if you wish to use something simpler, or more complex, or completely different with X. With MS, you get what Bill wants you to have. > I can understand why this is. If you write a program, at least half > of your time will get into the time to develop a good GUI. It's a > hard thing to do. I've done it for the Amiga, but I must say the > result was worth the trouble. If the GUI would have been worse, > the program would have gotten bad reviews. Now, the reviews were > good. The GUI wasn't mentioned. So that means it lived up to the > expectations. Yes, the problem is few of the reviewers even understand what constitutes a GOOD gui. You've hit on a very important point here -- if they even comment on it, you've probably done a poor job. If they mention the toolbars or the menu layout, even if they're complimentary, it took their mind off accomplishing work to attract them to your user interface -- you have failed. The only good gui is a "transparent" gui. It's nice to see *someone* else has hit upon this idea. Actually, this has a certain orthogonality with my favorite Terry Lambert quote: "Good programming looks obvious." ;^) > > Yup. There's no good way to represent errors graphically. > > Nonsense. I agree! I'm certain there is at least one, and probably several, I just haven't hit upon it/them yet. And I've tried! The true challenge in gui programming is not in creating objects and making them do things to other objects, but rather in building a visual grammar with the user, something very few gui programmers understand. I once spent a year designing a gui tool for administering UNIX systems; it was an exciting and frustrating time of my life. The system architecture we came up with I still believe could have taken the UNIX world by storm. It was a "push" architecture with some smarts at the network level about which computers belonged to which administration groups and what user accounts and groups could be replicated to each administration group. The hard part was getting the gui correct. For instance, consider two views that have icons representing user accounts: one is all users on a particular system, the other all users in a group. Now consider the action of selecting one or more user accounts and hitting the delete key. When viewing "all users", does this mean "delete the user account from the system?" When viewing "users in a group," does this mean "delete the user from the group" or "delete the user from the system." The first makes sense but is inconsistent, the second may cause some nasty surprises. There are deeper semantic questions also: if the account exists on a given computer only by way of belonging to a group, and that group has been "added" or "applied" to a particular computer, does this mean removing the user account from the group should remove the user account from said computer? As I said, gui design is far less a programming problem and far more a cognitive/linguistic problem than most programmers realize. Firms that do a GOOD job of design typically hire user interface designers, like Tog (mentioned above) who have some understanding of *how* people come to understand a problem. Far too many Windows programs just follow the straight and narrow path of "make it look like Word." This is an actual quote from the executive moron I worked for while designing the wonderful technological marvel mentioned above. Not a wonder I left the company, or that they never produced it, huh? (They bought some lame "enhanced security" technology from another company, slapped a silly GUI on it, and called it done. The whole thing relies on NFS mounts to distribute security information across your network. Can you possibly imagine anything LESS secure?) > But you can nitpick as much as you want on MS, Windows and NT, > but some things just work better with them. Security in NT has > a better base (VMS) that in Unix, despite the security bugs that > reguraly show up. As someone who worked side-by-side with engineers who developed security analysis programs for VMS, I can tell you sincerely that while VMS has a lot more security "knobs" than UNIX, it is most often less secure because people have less of a chance to understand all those knobs. Which is easier to secure - a cabin with a door and two windows or a 97-room mansion with doors, balconies, french windows, skylights, etc.? UNIX security problems are generally well known and discussed in the open; as a system administrator you have thousands of resources around the world from Usenet news to mail lists to books where you can learn more about how to secure your system. As an NT administrator, you can by a few books from Microsoft that tell you nothing about security, you can pay some screwball "training" company thousands of dollars to have someone who is incapable of being an administrator to read these books to you, or you can sit and wait for your precious sever to get hacked. > Another thing, not to be forgotten, is that very many people > use Windows 95 at the moment. It's pretty easy to couple it > with NT. So, for an intranet, NT is probably more suited than > Unix is. Perhaps, but only if you're not going to hire a system administrator, in which case you should probably give up on NT also. Microsoft has done a good job of creating the illusion that NT is easy to administer, and that the administration load is low enough that most NT users don't need an administrator. Nothing could be further from the truth. The TRUTH is NT administrators are much harder to find than UNIX admins, and therefore cost more and are harder to keep. Doh! > NT is something like five to ten years old. I don't expect all > the bugs to be out of it, also considering MS's strategy to > release first and fix bugs later. Unix had 25 years to mature. > MS has 20,000 programmers and a lot of cash. You meant to say "MS's strategy to release first and then release the next version with thousands more bugs, without ever fixing any." Many of the points you make are perfectly valid, and you seem to be one of the few people that realize that near-universal acceptance of Win 95, Win NT, etc. on business desktops doesn't spell doom for UNIX, or for other offerings like BeOS, etc. Sure, if you're making money from an OS you'd rather have Win95 sales figures than Solaris x86 sales figures, but that doesn't mean there isn't money to be made in Solaris x86. The existence of General Motors hasn't threatened either Ferrari OR Kenworth, any more than NT threatens the survival of Sun or SGI. The problems threatening Sun and SGI are those of not offering what their customers want; customers who don't want NT, just want a *better* UNIX. Personally, I suggest they look into FreeBSD. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com