From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 05:50:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14254 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:50:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA14249 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 2515 invoked from network); 18 Oct 1998 12:49:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.2) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 18 Oct 1998 12:49:16 -0000 Message-ID: <3629E3FD.210F0B1B@pipeline.ch> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:50:05 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD and Apache at Yahoo! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In Apache Week issue 134 (16th October 1998) they wrote: -snip- The first talk on the second day was by _John Patrick_ from IBM ([9]picture). He talked about his view of how the Internet will evolve. In the last session, _David Filo_ from Yahoo! showed how Yahoo! has used open source software ([10]picture). They started by using commercial operating systems and home-written web servers, but had problems with vendors not being able to scale to the huge number of hits they soon received. They moved to FreeBSD so they could read and if necessary tweak the operating system code. They also use Apache on most of their servers and find that the majority of the performance limitations come from the application layer software. -snip- To read the whole story go to http://www.apacheweek.com/ -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 08:36:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25560 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 08:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25530 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 08:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA05812 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:34:37 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sad news Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mr. Internet" has passed on... http://cnn.com/US/9810/18/obit.postel.01.ap/index.html --- Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 10:31:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16309 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from RWSystems.net (Commie.RWSystems.net [204.251.23.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16287 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:30:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jwyatt@rwsystr.RWSystems.net) Received: from rwsystr.RWSystems.net([204.251.23.1]) (1260 bytes) by RWSystems.net via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:22:56 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #1 built 1998-Jul-31) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:24:33 -0500 (CDT) From: James Wyatt To: Vince Vielhaber cc: Ted Spradley , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "H.Eckert" Subject: Re: syslogd and syslog.conf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Vince Vielhaber wrote: > On 17-Oct-98 Ted Spradley wrote: > >> ..., once you learn HOW to use it it's not the Evil Editor > >> you want to think it is. > > Heh! :-} Once you learn HOW to use ..., MeSs-Word.... > Why would you want to use "MeSs-Word" on syslog.conf? I am amazed at the things I've seen people try to do with Samba! I wouldn't put it past them to mount /etc. 8{) I've been asked whether linload would allow you to load and run linux over samba... That aside, MSWord alters files too much anyway... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 13:37:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05651 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05628 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:37:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id NAA29881; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19981018133645.D27419@best.com> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:36:45 -0700 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: Andre Oppermann , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Apache at Yahoo! References: <3629E3FD.210F0B1B@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3629E3FD.210F0B1B@pipeline.ch>; from Andre Oppermann on Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 02:50:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 02:50:05PM +0200, Andre Oppermann wrote: > In Apache Week issue 134 (16th October 1998) they wrote: > > -snip- > The first talk on the second day was by _John Patrick_ from IBM > ([9]picture). He talked about his view of how the Internet will > evolve. In the last session, _David Filo_ from Yahoo! showed how > Yahoo! has used open source software ([10]picture). They started by > using commercial operating systems and home-written web servers, but > had problems with vendors not being able to scale to the huge number > of hits they soon received. They moved to FreeBSD so they could read > and if necessary tweak the operating system code. They also use > Apache > on most of their servers and find that the majority of the > performance > limitations come from the application layer software. > -snip- > > To read the whole story go to http://www.apacheweek.com/ > > -- > Andre > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Yup... I actually asked David if they were fully switched to 2.2 branch by now and his answer was: "Well, we have a few 2.1 systems with more then a year uptime. It makes no sence for us to upgrade if it works". -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 15:23:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15036 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15031 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:23:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16402; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:22:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Terry Lambert cc: Andy Farkas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount flags In-Reply-To: <199810182150.OAA12751@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Yeah, something fishy is going on here with statfs(2). According to the > > man page on a 2.2.7 system, and in , there are definitions > > for struct statfs->f_type, but on a 3.0-current, they have strangely > > disappeared. > > The use of this field in order to determine FS type presupposes the > definition of a manifest value in the mount.h file each time someone > adds a new FS type. > > This is basically an utterly bogus thing to presuppose, since it > means that you have to recompile the kernel and modify mount.h to > add support for a new FS type. I'm not sure about this, Terry, so I'm asking for a little discussion .. and I moved it to chat, to cut the complaints about noise. The situation is where I'm asking statfs what kind of fs I happen to be manipulating (not where I'm asking for a mount, or anything like a fs action initiation). There are a set of manifest constants that are pretty darn common among all the unixes, and what they mean is unambiguous ... in mount.h, normally. I see that work has been done to move that info into an ascii string, but: 1) there is no registry for what the mapping is between an fs type and what string is used to ID it, and 2) why is it that a string comparison is felt to be cleaner, in a world so worried about buffer overruns? That part at least seems terribly wrong. On top of that, the data is done via linker set ... seems to be an abuse-trap. Why is this cleaner? ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (NetBSD). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 17:05:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21987 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:05:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles236.castles.com [208.214.165.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21976 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:05:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA14961; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810190009.RAA14961@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Chuck Robey cc: Terry Lambert , Andy Farkas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount flags In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:22:37 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:09:36 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The situation is where I'm asking statfs what kind of fs I happen to be > manipulating (not where I'm asking for a mount, or anything like a fs > action initiation). There are a set of manifest constants that are > pretty darn common among all the unixes, and what they mean is > unambiguous ... in mount.h, normally. I see that work has been done to > move that info into an ascii string, but: > > 1) there is no registry for what the mapping is between an fs type > and what string is used to ID it, and This is arguably a failure in the transition to the new interface; the constants should remain, and likewise the interface that used them should still accept them, even if it performs the transformation to the character string before passing it to the kernel. > 2) why is it that a string comparison is felt to be cleaner, in a world > so worried about buffer overruns? That part at least seems terribly > wrong. On top of that, the data is done via linker set ... seems to > be an abuse-trap. > > Why is this cleaner? Because it's arbitrarily extensible, and does away with having to have the VFS type numbers cast in stone. If you wonder why having manifest VFS constants sucks, consider the current mess involving loadable VFS modules. What value do you give a newly loaded VFS? What if you have two loaded in different orders on different systems? The jab about string comparisons is just silly; bad programming is what's dangerous. The fact that people have been getting away with bad string handling for a while but aren't any more is no better or worse than people that used to get away with not range-checking values. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 17:33:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24288 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24281 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA16646; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:32:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Mike Smith cc: Terry Lambert , Andy Farkas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount flags In-Reply-To: <199810190009.RAA14961@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > 1) there is no registry for what the mapping is between an fs type > > and what string is used to ID it, and > > This is arguably a failure in the transition to the new interface; > the constants should remain, and likewise the interface that used them > should still accept them, even if it performs the transformation to the > character string before passing it to the kernel. > > > 2) why is it that a string comparison is felt to be cleaner, in a world > > so worried about buffer overruns? That part at least seems terribly > > wrong. On top of that, the data is done via linker set ... seems to > > be an abuse-trap. > > > > Why is this cleaner? > > Because it's arbitrarily extensible, and does away with having to have > the VFS type numbers cast in stone. If you wonder why having manifest > VFS constants sucks, consider the current mess involving loadable VFS > modules. What value do you give a newly loaded VFS? What if you have > two loaded in different orders on different systems? > > The jab about string comparisons is just silly; bad programming is > what's dangerous. The fact that people have been getting away with bad > string handling for a while but aren't any more is no better or worse > than people that used to get away with not range-checking values. True. I thought the string comparison idea silly, and didn't make the argument well enough. Without trying to be cute or sarcastic or anything, can I ask you to break down the phrase "VFS type numbers cast in stone" as something more obviously good or evil? The point, tho, is that you seem to imply that the manifest constants used to ID a VFS have to have something to do with loading order. I don't see why that has to be. If I bring in a KLD module named "nfs", I fully expect it to do nfs filesystem stuff for me, whether or not I loaded it first or second, I want it to do it based upon the name. Is making it depend on an initially assigned number somehow evil? Why can't I just specify that some constant, oh, 69, means nfsv3? Might well be that I misunderstand you, but it seems to go around your example. Heck, with names, do I mean "NFS" or "nfs"? At least with a number, I've got some header file that stands as a registry. Making me do it via string comparison doesn't sound incredibly useful or flexible. We do all our devices that way, right? (We do until DEVFS, anyways, which may well mean forever, since there is still too little agreement on even how that's to work). I'm glad I took this to chat, I can get away with one more argument without really wearing away patience (I hope). I _really_ like what you said about having both interfaces, that's *exactly* what I want to propose to bde when he finally gets back to me. He's done most of changes, so he's the one I have to talk to on it, but your comment is encouraging. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (NetBSD). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 18:40:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29743 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-232.airnet.net [207.242.81.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29731 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00379; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:37:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Message-ID: <362A97C2.AC662018@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:37:06 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: Mikael Karpberg , Malartre , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD User Guide References: <3626C622.23A4E9B6@aei.ca> <199810170310.FAA01755@ocean.campus.luth.se> <19981019024633.00000@follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund wrote: > AFAIK = As Far As I Know > AFAIR = As Far As I Remember IIRC? -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 18:46:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00300 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (pinsoft.internet.co.nz [202.37.141.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00292 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:46:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA22445; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:47:12 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:47:12 +1300 From: Jonathan Chen To: Kris Kirby cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD User Guide In-Reply-To: <362A97C2.AC662018@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > AFAIK = As Far As I Know > > AFAIR = As Far As I Remember > > IIRC? > -- - If I Recall Correctly --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Chen | Opportunites are seldom labeled --------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 19:37:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04925 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles338.castles.com [208.214.167.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04904 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15643; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810190240.TAA15643@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Chuck Robey cc: Mike Smith , Terry Lambert , Andy Farkas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount flags In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:32:15 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:40:39 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > 1) there is no registry for what the mapping is between an fs type > > > and what string is used to ID it, and > > > > This is arguably a failure in the transition to the new interface; > > the constants should remain, and likewise the interface that used them > > should still accept them, even if it performs the transformation to the > > character string before passing it to the kernel. > > > > > 2) why is it that a string comparison is felt to be cleaner, in a world > > > so worried about buffer overruns? That part at least seems terribly > > > wrong. On top of that, the data is done via linker set ... seems to > > > be an abuse-trap. > > > > > > Why is this cleaner? > > > > Because it's arbitrarily extensible, and does away with having to have > > the VFS type numbers cast in stone. If you wonder why having manifest > > VFS constants sucks, consider the current mess involving loadable VFS > > modules. What value do you give a newly loaded VFS? What if you have > > two loaded in different orders on different systems? > > > > The jab about string comparisons is just silly; bad programming is > > what's dangerous. The fact that people have been getting away with bad > > string handling for a while but aren't any more is no better or worse > > than people that used to get away with not range-checking values. > > True. I thought the string comparison idea silly, and didn't make the > argument well enough. Without trying to be cute or sarcastic or > anything, can I ask you to break down the phrase "VFS type numbers cast > in stone" as something more obviously good or evil? If the type numbers are static, you can't introduce a new VFS to a system without first rebuilding everything that uses the numbers. If the type numbers are dynamic, but still numbers, there's no way to know what they correspond to. Making them text strings means that you can add a new vfs and have a unique response from it that doesn't require a registry of number to name mappings. > The point, tho, is that you seem to imply that the manifest constants > used to ID a VFS have to have something to do with loading order. At the moment they don't even do that, they're indexes into a fixed array. > I > don't see why that has to be. If I bring in a KLD module named "nfs", I > fully expect it to do nfs filesystem stuff for me, whether or not I > loaded it first or second, I want it to do it based upon the name. Exactly, which is why you want it keyed by name, and not by offset in the VFS table like it is now. > Is > making it depend on an initially assigned number somehow evil? Yes; you have to administer the numbers. Look how much of a mess the major number assignment process creates. > Why > can't I just specify that some constant, oh, 69, means nfsv3? Might > well be that I misunderstand you, but it seems to go around your > example. The numeric "namespace" is too small, and the name doesn't mean anything useful. If the NFS VFS calls itself "nfs", then you can tell it's NFS. If you just loaded a VFS module and it says it's type #69, you're none the wiser unless you can go look the number up somewhere. > Heck, with names, do I mean "NFS" or "nfs"? At least with a number, > I've got some header file that stands as a registry. Making me do it > via string comparison doesn't sound incredibly useful or flexible. You don't necessarily have a header file; the VFS may be a completely new animal. > We do all our devices that way, right? (We do until DEVFS, anyways, > which may well mean forever, since there is still too little agreement > on even how that's to work). There's lots of agreement to work. There's just too much childish backstabbing and procrastinating over the implementation. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 20:13:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08474 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08446 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:13:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA07303; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:12:24 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:12:23 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Kris Kirby cc: Eivind Eklund , Mikael Karpberg , Malartre , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD User Guide In-Reply-To: <362A97C2.AC662018@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > AFAIK = As Far As I Know > > AFAIR = As Far As I Remember > > IIRC? If I Recall Correctly, IIRC :) Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 18 21:33:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14298 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-225.airnet.net [207.242.81.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14224 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:33:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00374; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:36:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Message-ID: <362A978C.7C222B4F@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:36:12 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Johnson CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SECURITY ISSUE!!! And misuse of freebsd-questions References: <199810181902.MAA24480@hub.freebsd.org> <19981018200023.A9962@palomine.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Redirected to -Chat] Chris Johnson wrote: > I've seen it argued on this list that HTML-formatted mail is here to stay and > that people ought to stop griping about it, get with the program, and get a > modern mail reader. Those people should keep in mind that many people read > mailing lists as digests, so even if they do have HTML-capable mail readers, > they still see HTML messages as a load of ugly garbage. If you're not certain > that every recipient of your message will see the HTML properly, don't send it. > > Chris As a user of Netscape, I've fixed myself so as not to make a stink on mailing lists by using my Address Book and selecting those would can recieve HTML mail. If a email address is not specified as being able to recieve HTML email, Netscape will not send it. I think it is a nice feature that lends itself more toward "add-on HTML emailer". Either way, when used properly, it doesn't get in the way, and that's what's important... -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 06:43:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06462 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 06:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from k6n1.znh.org (dialup5.gaffaneys.com [208.155.161.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06451 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 06:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zach@gaffaneys.com) Received: (from zach@localhost) by k6n1.znh.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA26482; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:42:48 GMT (envelope-from zach) Message-ID: <19981019084247.B25638@znh.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:42:47 -0500 From: Zach Heilig To: James Wyatt , Vince Vielhaber Cc: Ted Spradley , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "H.Eckert" Subject: Re: syslogd and syslog.conf References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from James Wyatt on Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 12:24:33PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 12:24:33PM -0500, James Wyatt wrote: > I am amazed at the things I've seen people try to do with Samba! I > wouldn't put it past them to mount /etc. 8{) I've been asked whether > linload would allow you to load and run linux over samba... > > That aside, MSWord alters files too much anyway... There is a local ISP that used notepad or something on /etc/passwd (in Linux) {He wanted to administer from his windows box.. it was so much easier to use...). After they screwed up their dialup box a few times, they switched everything to Windows NT (and took a month to figure out how to shoehorn Windows into being a dialup box...). Needless to say, thay have very bad service... -- Zach Heilig If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have to at least consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidę on our hands (Douglas Adams -- Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 09:01:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18432 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:01:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18417 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:01:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19977; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:00:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981019090044.B19940@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:00:44 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) Install-a-thon Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-a-thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly install-a-thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on October 24th at the Cow Palace in Daly City. The purpose of these install-a-thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Admission to the show is free but parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com Ian Kallen - ian@gamespot.com Jan Koum - jkb@best.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 10:10:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24936 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:10:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24930 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:10:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA32036; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:09:51 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA27318; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:09:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Mike Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Sounds of Soft Updates In-Reply-To: <199810180307.UAA09256@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: >If you don't know what I'm talking about, and you don't have a system >running it, then I guess I should explain that Soft Updates pushes >pending writes out to disk once a second. If the system's not very >busy, you get a little burst of activity every second; on the old >Barracuda I'm using here it sounds a bit like a Burmese with a bell >working on a hairball. I have "soft updates" and I did not even know it. Thanks for the brilliant technical article on how to determine the configuration of one's system. :) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 10:42:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27945 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:42:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27934 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08213; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:41:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id MAA08101; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:41:08 -0500 Message-ID: <19981019124108.33310@right.PCS> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:41:08 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Sounds of Soft Updates References: <199810180307.UAA09256@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Oct 10, 1998 at 10:09:33AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 10, 1998 at 10:09:33AM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > >If you don't know what I'm talking about, and you don't have a system > >running it, then I guess I should explain that Soft Updates pushes > >pending writes out to disk once a second. If the system's not very > >busy, you get a little burst of activity every second; on the old > >Barracuda I'm using here it sounds a bit like a Burmese with a bell > >working on a hairball. > > I have "soft updates" and I did not even know it. > > Thanks for the brilliant technical article on how to determine the > configuration of one's system. :) Sounds like Mike's been hanging around with Jordan's cats again. :-) -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 11:06:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01318 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:06:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01307 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29011; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:05:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028992; Mon Oct 19 11:05:31 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29006; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:05:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199810191805.LAA29006@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mount flags To: chuckr@mat.net (Chuck Robey) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:05:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, tlambert@primenet.com, andyf@speednet.com.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Oct 18, 98 08:32:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > True. I thought the string comparison idea silly, and didn't make the > argument well enough. Without trying to be cute or sarcastic or > anything, can I ask you to break down the phrase "VFS type numbers cast > in stone" as something more obviously good or evil? I can. The numbers that represent the FS's were their index into a list of statically configured per FS structures, including, among other information, their string name. The problem with this is that zero is taken (MOUNT_NONE), and that MOUNT_MAXTYPE is untrustworthy in the face of loadable modules. This basically means that the number would have to be disconeected from the index to allow arbitrary module loading. This is possible, but that engenders a new problem: when I add a new FS type to the system, what non-index number can I give it, such that I don't collide with any other FS anyone may, in the future, add to the system? The use of manifest constants in identifying VFS stacking layers is precisely tantamount to the assignment of major and minor numbers to devices: there is a strong requirement for a central namespace management authority. > The point, tho, is that you seem to imply that the manifest constants > used to ID a VFS have to have something to do with loading order. No, they have something to do with declaration order. And even though this can be spackled around, the issue of requiring a central authority to arbitrate the numbers can't be fixed. You can't modify the contents of the INITMOUNTNAMES string array in an already compiled program to reflect the addition of elements by the existance of one or more new VFS stacking layer types. > Is making it depend on an initially assigned number somehow evil? Yes. It implies a central management of initially assigned numbers. > Why can't I just specify that some constant, oh, 69, means nfsv3? Because you aren't the central authority, and so if you want to create a stacking layer, you have to go to that authority, with your hat in your hand, and ask for a number. 8-). > Heck, with names, do I mean "NFS" or "nfs"? At least with a number, > I've got some header file that stands as a registry. Making me do it > via string comparison doesn't sound incredibly useful or flexible. > > We do all our devices that way, right? (We do until DEVFS, anyways, > which may well mean forever, since there is still too little agreement > on even how that's to work). Right. And that is bad. > I'm glad I took this to chat, I can get away with one more argument > without really wearing away patience (I hope). I _really_ like what you > said about having both interfaces, that's *exactly* what I want to > propose to bde when he finally gets back to me. He's done most of > changes, so he's the one I have to talk to on it, but your comment is > encouraging. I _really_ dislike supporting the legacy interface, unless you are willing to forego access to all new VFS layers in order to use it, in which case, I'd grudgingly allow you to aim at your foot, but you should have to define some manifest constant before you are allowed to aim through the contents of a system header file, IMO. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 18:51:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21008 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20993 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA10620; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:20:55 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA00765; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:20:46 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020112046.G433@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:20:46 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathan Lemon , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Sounds of Soft Updates References: <199810180307.UAA09256@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981019124108.33310@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981019124108.33310@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 12:41:08PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 October 1998 at 12:41:08 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Oct 10, 1998 at 10:09:33AM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: >> >> On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: >>> If you don't know what I'm talking about, and you don't have a system >>> running it, then I guess I should explain that Soft Updates pushes >>> pending writes out to disk once a second. If the system's not very >>> busy, you get a little burst of activity every second; on the old >>> Barracuda I'm using here it sounds a bit like a Burmese with a bell >>> working on a hairball. >> >> I have "soft updates" and I did not even know it. >> >> Thanks for the brilliant technical article on how to determine the >> configuration of one's system. :) > > Sounds like Mike's been hanging around with Jordan's cats again. :-) And I thought he was referring to mine. I didn't know that Jordan had Burmese. But then, mine don't have bells. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 20:39:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00148 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00134 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:39:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA11011 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:09:02 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA02105; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:09:01 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:09:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Need a name for the vinum daemon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You probably know about Vinum, my new volume manager (see http://www.lemis.com/vinum.html if you don't). You may not know that the name is a play on words. "Vinum" is Latin for "wine", and I derived the name from the Latin saying "In vino veritas" (In wine is truth). Now I find I need a daemon to do some work that requires process context. What should I call the daemon? There should be all sorts of word plays on the devil drink and such, but I can't think of anything appropriate. If anybody can suggest a good name, preferably Latin, I'll give you a bottle of wine (or at least a Vinum core dump :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 21:52:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05675 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05668 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:52:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA29228; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:52:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981019225015.06c0eae0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:50:33 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon In-Reply-To: <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bacchus. At 01:09 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >You probably know about Vinum, my new volume manager (see >http://www.lemis.com/vinum.html if you don't). You may not know that >the name is a play on words. "Vinum" is Latin for "wine", and I >derived the name from the Latin saying "In vino veritas" (In wine is >truth). > >Now I find I need a daemon to do some work that requires process >context. What should I call the daemon? There should be all sorts of >word plays on the devil drink and such, but I can't think of anything >appropriate. If anybody can suggest a good name, preferably Latin, >I'll give you a bottle of wine (or at least a Vinum core dump :-) > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 21:53:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05739 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles180.castles.com [208.214.165.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05734 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:53:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00342; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:09:00 +0930." <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:57:24 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You probably know about Vinum, my new volume manager (see > http://www.lemis.com/vinum.html if you don't). You may not know that > the name is a play on words. "Vinum" is Latin for "wine", and I > derived the name from the Latin saying "In vino veritas" (In wine is > truth). > > Now I find I need a daemon to do some work that requires process > context. What should I call the daemon? There should be all sorts of > word plays on the devil drink and such, but I can't think of anything > appropriate. If anybody can suggest a good name, preferably Latin, > I'll give you a bottle of wine (or at least a Vinum core dump :-) Bacchus, of course. You might try "satyrd" for two different puns involving wine, "faund" (depending on how obsequious the daemon is), or more banal items like "vintnerd" (I thought that was almost too obvious), "vd" (possible indirect consequence), "yeast" (if it helps make vinum what it is), and probably more. I'm desperately trying to remember the proper name for winemaking, but I'm stuffed if I can come up with it just now. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:03:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06226 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:03:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06220 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:03:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA11248; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:32:26 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA02838; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:32:05 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020143204.Q433@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:32:04 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon References: <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 09:57:24PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 October 1998 at 21:57:24 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> You probably know about Vinum, my new volume manager (see >> http://www.lemis.com/vinum.html if you don't). You may not know that >> the name is a play on words. "Vinum" is Latin for "wine", and I >> derived the name from the Latin saying "In vino veritas" (In wine is >> truth). >> >> Now I find I need a daemon to do some work that requires process >> context. What should I call the daemon? There should be all sorts of >> word plays on the devil drink and such, but I can't think of anything >> appropriate. If anybody can suggest a good name, preferably Latin, >> I'll give you a bottle of wine (or at least a Vinum core dump :-) > > Bacchus, of course. It's certainly getting the votes, isn't it? > You might try "satyrd" for two different puns involving wine, :-) > "faund" (depending on how obsequious the daemon is), or more banal > items like "vintnerd" (I thought that was almost too obvious), "vd" > (possible indirect consequence), "yeast" (if it helps make vinum > what it is), and probably more. I'm desperately trying to remember > the proper name for winemaking, but I'm stuffed if I can come up > with it just now. What's wrong with "winemaking"? Are you trying to think of oenology? That's really the study rather than the practice, not a problem in itself, but it's Greek, and the Americans appear not to know it at all. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:14:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06772 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles150.castles.com [208.214.165.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06759 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00306; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:17:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810200517.WAA00306@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:32:04 +0930." <19981020143204.Q433@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:17:43 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Now I find I need a daemon to do some work that requires process > >> context. What should I call the daemon? There should be all sorts of > >> word plays on the devil drink and such, but I can't think of anything > >> appropriate. If anybody can suggest a good name, preferably Latin, > >> I'll give you a bottle of wine (or at least a Vinum core dump :-) > > > > Bacchus, of course. > > It's certainly getting the votes, isn't it? It's definitely the obvious choice. > What's wrong with "winemaking"? Are you trying to think of oenology? > That's really the study rather than the practice, not a problem in > itself, but it's Greek, and the Americans appear not to know it at > all. That's it. I think a daemon called "oenologist" has a lot going for it: - It can be creatively mispronounced. - A user seeing it in the process listing is going to be completely befuddled. - It's quite subtle without being impenetrable (like the 3-way vinum play). -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:15:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06941 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:15:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06918 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA11289; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:45:03 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA25949; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:44:49 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020144448.A2844@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:44:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon References: <19981020143204.Q433@freebie.lemis.com> <199810200517.WAA00306@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199810200517.WAA00306@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:17:43PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 October 1998 at 22:17:43 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> Now I find I need a daemon to do some work that requires process >>>> context. What should I call the daemon? There should be all sorts of >>>> word plays on the devil drink and such, but I can't think of anything >>>> appropriate. If anybody can suggest a good name, preferably Latin, >>>> I'll give you a bottle of wine (or at least a Vinum core dump :-) >>> >>> Bacchus, of course. >> >> It's certainly getting the votes, isn't it? > > It's definitely the obvious choice. > >> What's wrong with "winemaking"? Are you trying to think of oenology? >> That's really the study rather than the practice, not a problem in >> itself, but it's Greek, and the Americans appear not to know it at >> all. > > That's it. I think a daemon called "oenologist" has a lot going for it: > > - It can be creatively mispronounced. > - A user seeing it in the process listing is going to be completely > befuddled. > - It's quite subtle without being impenetrable (like the 3-way vinum > play). True. I wonder if Bruce will consider it stylistically acceptable. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:19:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07319 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:19:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07309 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA29465; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:18:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:16:54 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <19981020143204.Q433@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:32 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >It's certainly getting the votes, isn't it? It's the obvious choice. (Hic! -- Or is that "Hoc?") --Brett P.S. -- If you want something ending with a "d", my wife suggests "maenad." Which fits, though technically it's Greek, not Latin. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:22:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07560 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:22:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles150.castles.com [208.214.165.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07555 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:22:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00393; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810200526.WAA00393@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:16:54 MDT." <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:26:43 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 02:32 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >It's certainly getting the votes, isn't it? > > It's the obvious choice. (Hic! -- Or is that "Hoc?") > > --Brett > > P.S. -- If you want something ending with a "d", my wife > suggests "maenad." Which fits, though technically it's > Greek, not Latin. Hmm, I forgot Eris, which naturally suggests Discord. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:33:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08580 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:33:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08573 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA11385; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:03:01 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA16935; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:02:35 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020150235.B2844@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:02:35 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Mike Smith Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon References: <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020143204.Q433@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 11:16:54PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 October 1998 at 23:16:54 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:32 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> It's certainly getting the votes, isn't it? > > It's the obvious choice. (Hic! -- Or is that "Hoc?") Vinum's neuter, so it would be hoc. Or is that Hock? > P.S. -- If you want something ending with a "d", my wife > suggests "maenad." Which fits, though technically it's > Greek, not Latin. I don't really see the connection with wine, either. It might be a better name for a database clone. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:35:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08756 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:35:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08748 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:35:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA11407; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:05:12 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA19051; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:05:12 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020150511.C2844@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:05:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith , Brett Glass Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon References: <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> <199810200526.WAA00393@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199810200526.WAA00393@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:26:43PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 October 1998 at 22:26:43 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> At 02:32 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >>> It's certainly getting the votes, isn't it? >> >> It's the obvious choice. (Hic! -- Or is that "Hoc?") >> >> --Brett >> >> P.S. -- If you want something ending with a "d", my wife >> suggests "maenad." Which fits, though technically it's >> Greek, not Latin. > > Hmm, I forgot Eris, That seems reasonable. Why did you remember her again? > which naturally suggests Discord. 8) Now that might be a name for a daemon :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:40:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09320 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09302 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:40:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA29645; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:39:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981019233533.06ac77e0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:37:45 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <19981020150235.B2844@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020143204.Q433@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:02 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> P.S. -- If you want something ending with a "d", my wife >> suggests "maenad." Which fits, though technically it's >> Greek, not Latin. > >I don't really see the connection with wine, either. There's a very strong one, actually. The "maenads" (or "Bacchantes") were female followers of Bacchus/Dionysus. They'd get rip-roaring drunk and were rumored to attack men, tearing them to shreds. Pretty demonic. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:41:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09502 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09494 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:41:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA11439; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:11:07 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA27548; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:10:59 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020151058.E2844@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:10:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Mike Smith Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon References: <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020143204.Q433@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> <19981020150235.B2844@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981019233533.06ac77e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981019233533.06ac77e0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 11:37:45PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 October 1998 at 23:37:45 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:02 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> P.S. -- If you want something ending with a "d", my wife >>> suggests "maenad." Which fits, though technically it's >>> Greek, not Latin. >> >> I don't really see the connection with wine, either. > > There's a very strong one, actually. > > The "maenads" (or "Bacchantes") were female followers of > Bacchus/Dionysus. They'd get rip-roaring drunk and were > rumored to attack men, tearing them to shreds. Pretty > demonic. Ah. This might be a slightly popularized version. In fact, they got high on laurel leaves. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:43:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09619 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles150.castles.com [208.214.165.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09612 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:43:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01946; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810200547.WAA01946@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:05:11 +0930." <19981020150511.C2844@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:47:22 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> P.S. -- If you want something ending with a "d", my wife > >> suggests "maenad." Which fits, though technically it's > >> Greek, not Latin. > > > > Hmm, I forgot Eris, > > That seems reasonable. Why did you remember her again? Shelving Illuminatus! as I went for some juice. > > which naturally suggests Discord. 8) > > Now that might be a name for a daemon :-) So many options to choose from all of a sudden? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:55:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10398 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10393 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:55:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10097; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:37:45 MDT." <4.1.19981019233533.06ac77e0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:54:06 -0700 Message-ID: <10094.908862846@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The "maenads" (or "Bacchantes") were female followers of > Bacchus/Dionysus. They'd get rip-roaring drunk and were > rumored to attack men, tearing them to shreds. Pretty > demonic. I think they call those "Radical Feminists" now, Brett. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 22:59:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10702 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10696 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4027.ime.net [209.90.195.37]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id BAA00340; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:57:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981020015552.00a55220@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:56:40 -0400 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon Cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <10094.908862846@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you add 'kicks men square in the balls', I think I'd call that my last 3 girlfriends... At 10:54 PM 10/19/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> The "maenads" (or "Bacchantes") were female followers of >> Bacchus/Dionysus. They'd get rip-roaring drunk and were >> rumored to attack men, tearing them to shreds. Pretty >> demonic. > >I think they call those "Radical Feminists" now, Brett. :-) > >- Jordan > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 23:00:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10791 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:00:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10781 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:00:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4027.ime.net [209.90.195.37]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id BAA00344 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:59:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981020015731.00ab79d0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:58:48 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: ISI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone notice that ISI (US_DOMAIN) is all screwed up? I did RWhois for my domain, nothing. I did a Dig to Venera.isi.edu, and I got nowhere. --- <<>> DiG 8.1 <<>> www.droo.orland.me.us ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: SERVFAIL, id: 6 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; QUERY SECTION: ;; www.droo.orland.me.us, type = A, class = IN ;; Total query time: 62711 msec ;; FROM: mud.psn.net to SERVER: default -- 128.9.176.32 ;; WHEN: Mon Oct 19 22:53:45 1998 ;; MSG SIZE sent: 39 rcvd: 39 --- Is there some unforseen outage that anyone knows of? Something's very odd :) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 23:00:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10845 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10828 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:00:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA11513; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:30:10 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA29379; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:30:07 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981020153006.H2844@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:30:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Drew Baxter , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass Cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Feminists (was: Need a name for the vinum daemon) References: <10094.908862846@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.0.67.19981020015552.00a55220@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.0.67.19981020015552.00a55220@genesis.ispace.com>; from Drew Baxter on Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 01:56:40AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 20 October 1998 at 1:56:40 -0400, Drew Baxter wrote: > At 10:54 PM 10/19/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>> The "maenads" (or "Bacchantes") were female followers of >>> Bacchus/Dionysus. They'd get rip-roaring drunk and were >>> rumored to attack men, tearing them to shreds. Pretty >>> demonic. >> >> I think they call those "Radical Feminists" now, Brett. :-) > > If you add 'kicks men square in the balls', I think I'd call that my last 3 > girlfriends... Hmm. Once, OK (well, not OK, but it can happen). Twice is getting funny. But three times? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 23:04:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11263 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11258 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4027.ime.net [209.90.195.37]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id CAA00459; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:03:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981020020033.00a5d100@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:02:14 -0400 To: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Feminists (was: Need a name for the vinum daemon) Cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <19981020153006.H2844@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.0.67.19981020015552.00a55220@genesis.ispace.com> <10094.908862846@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.0.67.19981020015552.00a55220@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If anyone's watched WWF Lately and saw Val Venis, I'd imagine he's gotten about 10 or 15 shots to his Johnson. But anyway, 99% of any relations I've had with women have ended with them screwing me over because they think I'm stupid. I'm pretty sharp if I do say so myself, perhaps I just don't like to indulge into the mental retardation of the American Teen or something.. Anyway, countless times, most mental, but a few physical. At 03:30 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Tuesday, 20 October 1998 at 1:56:40 -0400, Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 10:54 PM 10/19/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>>> The "maenads" (or "Bacchantes") were female followers of >>>> Bacchus/Dionysus. They'd get rip-roaring drunk and were >>>> rumored to attack men, tearing them to shreds. Pretty >>>> demonic. >>> >>> I think they call those "Radical Feminists" now, Brett. :-) >> >> If you add 'kicks men square in the balls', I think I'd call that my last 3 >> girlfriends... > >Hmm. Once, OK (well, not OK, but it can happen). Twice is getting >funny. But three times? > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 19 23:08:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11672 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:08:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11667 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:08:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4027.ime.net [209.90.195.37]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id CAA00474 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:08:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981020020539.00aba3b0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 02:07:06 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: RE: ISI (retraction) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm going to retract the thing about ISI. As it goes 2 minutes after I sent it, suddenly my DNS became active, starting at the root servers, and then mystically into my cache at my ISP.. One of these days they'll make software that'll interpret questions, and then beat you over the head right before you hit send.. In the meantime, I guess I just say 'Hope you didn't reply :-)'. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 20 06:42:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17717 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 06:42:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ceia.nordier.com (m1-44-dbn.dial-up.net [196.34.155.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17712 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 06:42:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rnordier@nordier.com) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by ceia.nordier.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA00443; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:40:13 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199810201340.PAA00443@ceia.nordier.com> Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon In-Reply-To: <19981020151058.E2844@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Oct 20, 98 03:10:58 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:40:05 +0200 (SAT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 19 October 1998 at 23:37:45 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:02 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >>> P.S. -- If you want something ending with a "d", my wife > >>> suggests "maenad." Which fits, though technically it's > >>> Greek, not Latin. > >> > >> I don't really see the connection with wine, either. > > > > There's a very strong one, actually. > > > > The "maenads" (or "Bacchantes") were female followers of > > Bacchus/Dionysus. They'd get rip-roaring drunk and were > > rumored to attack men, tearing them to shreds. Pretty > > demonic. > > Ah. This might be a slightly popularized version. In fact, they got > high on laurel leaves. Actually the usual classicist explanation for the _enthousiamos_ ("possession") which occurred during Dionysiac _orgia_ (no need to translate *that*) was darkness, torch light, rhythmic dancing, music, and (fairly definitely) wine. Though I believe the Maenads of the Holy Albino (affiliated with the Jihad to Destroy Barney the Purple Dinosaur[tm]) advocate "unhealthy snacks". -- Robert Nordier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 20 08:12:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24512 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24507 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA03202; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:12:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981020090700.06d40cf0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:08:17 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Need a name for the vinum daemon Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <19981020151058.E2844@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981019233533.06ac77e0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020130900.M433@freebie.lemis.com> <199810200457.VAA00342@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981020143204.Q433@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981019231316.06ac55e0@mail.lariat.org> <19981020150235.B2844@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981019233533.06ac77e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:10 PM 10/20/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Ah. This might be a slightly popularized version. In fact, they got >high on laurel leaves. I thought it was myrtle leaves.... As in the "myrtle of Venus." There's a song about combining the vine of Bacchus and the myrtle of Venus that became the United States' national anthem. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 20 15:34:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11706 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11693 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:34:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13290; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:34:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id RAA13416; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:33:29 -0500 Message-ID: <19981020173329.52764@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:33:29 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Alex Belits Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Producing non-GPLed tools for FreeBSD References: <19981020162923.17640@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Belits on Oct 10, 1998 at 03:25:25PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 10, 1998 at 03:25:25PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote: > On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > > > > The hypocrisy comes from misleadingly calling this "free". > > > > > > I don't think it's misleading at all. The software costs nothing, and the > > > source is available to anyone who wants it. Sounds pretty free to me. > > > > Hmm. Please note that this is the _same_ case as with any software > > that you obtain with an NDA: ``the software costs nothing'', and > > ``the source is available to anyone who wants it'', with the third > > line being ``as long as you agree to our terms''. > > > > So you could argue that the GPL is just another form of an NDA. > > I don't want to know, what do you smoke, but please, explain, what kind > of disclosure of the GPL'ed source is prohibited by GPL? Read what I wrote above. ``as long as you agree to our terms''. You can share NDA sources with other people, as long as they are NDA'd also. You can share GPL sources with other people, as long as they are GPL'd also. What is so hard to understand about this? To me, free means free. Not, ``with strings attached'', in whatever form the attachment is. > I find it disturbing that people don't see freedom unless they can trade > it for something else. I find it disturbing that people call restrictions ``freedom''. Yes, I understand the GPL. No, I don't condemn it, but I _do_ want to apprepriately label it what it is. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 20 16:23:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16081 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15984 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA12876; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:22:33 -0700 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:22:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Jonathan Lemon cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Producing non-GPLed tools for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19981020173329.52764@right.PCS> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > I don't want to know, what do you smoke, but please, explain, what kind > > of disclosure of the GPL'ed source is prohibited by GPL? > > Read what I wrote above. ``as long as you agree to our terms''. The difference is in those terms. > You can share NDA sources with other people, as long as they > are NDA'd also. I can't grant anyone the status of being under NDA, only the company that issued the NDA can, and it can make its choice, whom to grant it. > You can share GPL sources with other people, as long as they > are GPL'd also. GPL does not allow anyone, who issued a software under it to choose further, whom it can grant the right to use it and under what conditions, once it's GPL'ed, it's GPL'ed for everyone, and it's the licensee who has the choice to take software, or not, no one else has any control over any particular act of downloading and using the software except one that performs it. In civilized society it's called "freedom". > What is so hard to understand about this? To me, free means free. > Not, ``with strings attached'', in whatever form the attachment is. So, if you will ask for freedom to carry guns you will demand to also have the right to shoot at anyone? The existence of restrictions does not reduce freedom per se, the existence of *power* to establish restrictions does. NDA gives the company that issued a software the power to deny licensing of the software or change the conditions. GPL abandons such a power, so it belongs to the category of licenses that make software free. And in this meaning of the word so does BSD-style license, however BSD license and GPL place different restrictions to the software, distributedd under them, main difference is that GPL requires all derived works to remain under it while BSD allows to place derived works under different license and have power over their distribution. Licenses that involve NDAs however do not abandon the power over the distribution of the original work or any derivatives, and therefore place them under control of the company that issued the original license. > > I find it disturbing that people don't see freedom unless they can trade > > it for something else. > > I find it disturbing that people call restrictions ``freedom''. I can't fly (I will break my neck if I'll try). I can't kill my neighbors (I will be imprisoned or killed if I'll try). I can't buy food without spending money on it (I will be imprisoned if I'll try). I can't change an employer (I will lose my visa to this country if I'll try). Which of the above mentioned restrictions affect my freedom and which of them allow someone else to have a power over me? -- Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 20 16:36:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17335 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17310 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01860; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:38:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810202338.QAA01860@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Alex Belits cc: Jonathan Lemon , "Jasper O'Malley" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Producing non-GPLed tools for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:22:32 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:38:44 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I find it disturbing that people don't see freedom unless they can trade > > > it for something else. > > > > I find it disturbing that people call restrictions ``freedom''. > > I can't fly (I will break my neck if I'll try). I can't kill my > neighbors (I will be imprisoned or killed if I'll try). I can't buy food > without spending money on it (I will be imprisoned if I'll try). I can't > change an employer (I will lose my visa to this country if I'll try). > > Which of the above mentioned restrictions affect my freedom and which of > them allow someone else to have a power over me? They all restrict your freedom, and they all give others power over you. Freedom is exactly that, freedom. Calling GPL'd code "free" is like calling America "the land of the free". -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 20 20:16:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08652 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08638 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:16:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00216 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwinfamily.org (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA29163 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: jobaldwi@vt.edu Organization: Virginia Tech From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Bug in rintf()?... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've been having a problem with rintf() not rounding properly, and I don't understand the code in /usr/src/libm/common_source/floor.c well enough to figure out where it is going wrong. Here is the problem I'm having though: rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) I'm running 2.2.7-Stable, btw. Any help is appreciated. - --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc Always forgive your enemies--nothing annoys them so -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBNi1Rv4jYza302vYpAQEZzAL/Q8PI1lruSRFBbt9NTago+2XCl/uYBiFt G3A7tkKyG0w9hdSlMIUSs4fQlj8aqc72e1Phq9lzufhGvKdzisGX8+KAToyPeYef D5eaUl/tsbo6QqYyMPfKZxhbLtsN/muf =Gnr1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 20 22:30:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18227 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18222 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from [158.152.46.40] (helo=ragnet.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.05demon1 #1) id 0zVqqi-0006Mu-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:30:21 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zVijM-0003OJ-00; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:50:12 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:50:12 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Anyone in Atlanta? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi I'm going to be in Atlanta 26/10/98 to 30/10/98 at a conference. Is there anyone who might fancy a meet up and a beer and show an English-man around the town? I'm actually working at the conference, but could probably arrange some time in the evenings if anyone is interested. Until 25/10/98 I'm at the Hackers-fest in the Netherlands and not too well connected but I will be able to catch up on the email on Sunday. Whilst in Atlanta, I'm at Grand Hyatt Atlanta 3300 Peachtree Road Georgia 30305 Phone (404) 365-8100 Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 08:05:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:05:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA28737 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zVvoE-0002GZ-00; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:48:06 +0200 Message-ID: <19981021124806.A8651@cityip.co.za> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:48:06 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Comment from within Microsoft Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was having a little icq chat earlier today with someone who works deep within the bowels of Microsoft. He made the following interesting comment: "I really like FreeBSD. they're engineers getting on with it, without any of the posing and MS bashing that the Linux people seem to enjoy. And what will the Linux people get in return ? The focus of the MS engineers and marketers" -- V Johann Visagie | wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 | ICQ: 20645559 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 08:38:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01852 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:38:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01842 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:38:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA15765; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:37:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199810211537.LAA15765@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Comment from within Microsoft To: wjv@cityip.co.za (Johann Visagie) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981021124806.A8651@cityip.co.za> from "Johann Visagie" at Oct 21, 98 12:48:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I was having a little icq chat earlier today with someone who works deep > within the bowels of Microsoft. He made the following interesting comment: > > "I really like FreeBSD. they're engineers getting on with it, without any > of the posing and MS bashing that the Linux people seem to enjoy. And what > will the Linux people get in return ? The focus of the MS engineers and > marketers" > > -- V > > Johann Visagie | wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 | ICQ: 20645559 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Yup... but the mindshare that means commercial apps goes to Linux. This guarantees that MS will focus on them as a target -- but it also allows them to publicize them as a PC OS alternative to Microsoft in things like the antitrust case. This may either weaken or kill Linux in the market for general computing and desktop use or strengthen it to the 600 pound gorilla status among the Free OS's (I think the latter is quite possible). Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 10:45:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15730 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:45:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15725; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:45:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00881; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:49:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810211749.KAA00881@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jobaldwi@vt.edu cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, bde@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:15:18 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:49:09 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I've been having a problem with rintf() not rounding properly, and I don't > understand the code in /usr/src/libm/common_source/floor.c well enough to > figure out where it is going wrong. Here is the problem I'm having though: We actually use the Sun-supplied math library, so you should be looking at src/lib/msun/src/s_rintf.c > rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 > rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) Unfortunately, I don't understand what these functions are doing either, but it's worth noting that rint() suffers the same fate. (Tested under 3.0). -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 10:53:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16904 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell1.dragondata.com (shell1.dragondata.com [204.137.237.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16882 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eddieb@shell1.dragondata.com) Received: from localhost (eddieb@localhost) by shell1.dragondata.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02745; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:52:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from eddieb@shell1.dragondata.com) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:52:21 -0500 (CDT) From: EddieB To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... In-Reply-To: <199810211749.KAA00881@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 > > rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) > I haven't really the slightest clue about coding (Yea I'll admit it) but I do remember from physics / chemistry classes that .5 #'s are rounded different. IE: 3.5 rounds to 4.0 and 4.5 also rounds to 4.0. If the # preceeding the .5 is even it just drops the .5, if the # preceeding the .5 is odd, it rounds up (you always get an even # as an answer) Probably not what is happening with that but I was bored and decided to write an email :) Jon EddieB/IRC IRCop : irc.dragondata.com NewNet HUB Server To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 10:58:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17342 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17325 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4001.ime.net [209.90.195.11]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA02401; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:57:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981021135512.00a60230@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:55:57 -0400 To: EddieB , Mike Smith From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199810211749.KAA00881@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm in a CompSci course I'm taking they just move it from a double to an int to cause 'truncation'. Course 4.5 would end up being 4 even, and 4.999999 would be 4 even too.. Truncation and rounding are two totally different commodities. But that's just my two-cents :) At 12:52 PM 10/21/98 -0500, EddieB wrote: > >> >> > rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 >> > rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) >> > >I haven't really the slightest clue about coding (Yea I'll admit it) but I >do remember from physics / chemistry classes that .5 #'s are rounded >different. IE: 3.5 rounds to 4.0 and 4.5 also rounds to 4.0. If the # >preceeding the .5 is even it just drops the .5, if the # preceeding the .5 >is odd, it rounds up (you always get an even # as an answer) > >Probably not what is happening with that but I was bored and decided to >write an email :) > >Jon > >EddieB/IRC >IRCop : irc.dragondata.com > NewNet HUB Server > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 11:12:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18685 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:12:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.15.68.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18664; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA32442; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:11:58 +1000 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:11:58 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199810211811.EAA32442@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jobaldwi@vt.edu, mike@smith.net.au Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... Cc: bde@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> I've been having a problem with rintf() not rounding properly, and I don't >> understand the code in /usr/src/libm/common_source/floor.c well enough to >> figure out where it is going wrong. Here is the problem I'm having though: > >We actually use the Sun-supplied math library, so you should be looking >at src/lib/msun/src/s_rintf.c > >> rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 >> rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) This seems to be correct. rintf() rounds to the nearest integer according to the prevailing rounding mode. The default prevailing rounding mode is round-to-even. rintf() even seems to get this right for all the other rounding modes (towards +Inf, towards -Inf and towards 0). Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 11:18:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19232 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:18:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19222 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:18:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11042 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:17:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:17:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Is there a mailing list for applications developers? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was wondering if there is perhaps a developers@freebsd.org type mailing list for people developing or porting applications, libraries, utilities, make announcements about releases for these things, post requests for testers, etc? [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 11:25:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19840; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01093; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810211828.LAA01093@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Bruce Evans cc: jobaldwi@vt.edu, mike@smith.net.au, bde@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:11:58 +1000." <199810211811.EAA32442@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:28:21 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> I've been having a problem with rintf() not rounding properly, and I don't > >> understand the code in /usr/src/libm/common_source/floor.c well enough to > >> figure out where it is going wrong. Here is the problem I'm having though: > > > >We actually use the Sun-supplied math library, so you should be looking > >at src/lib/msun/src/s_rintf.c > > > >> rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 > >> rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) > > This seems to be correct. rintf() rounds to the nearest integer according > to the prevailing rounding mode. The default prevailing rounding mode > is round-to-even. rintf() even seems to get this right for all the > other rounding modes (towards +Inf, towards -Inf and towards 0). Where do you set the rounding mode? The only reference I could find was fpsetround(), which offers nearest, -inf, +inf and truncate. math(3) lists 3 types for ieee754 (+inf, -inf and 0). -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 11:27:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20302 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20297 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:27:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01119; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810211830.LAA01119@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Licia cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a mailing list for applications developers? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:17:37 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:30:40 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I was wondering if there is perhaps a developers@freebsd.org > type mailing list for people developing or porting applications, > libraries, utilities, make announcements about releases for these > things, post requests for testers, etc? The announce list is available for announcements and the like. If you're looking for testers you generally want to pick the list that's most likely to be read by the users you're interested in (eg. isp, newbies, etc.) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 11:30:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20923 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20895 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11132; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:30:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:30:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: Mike Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a mailing list for applications developers? In-Reply-To: <199810211830.LAA01119@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you for your reply :) I was thinking though, more of a mailing list for people developing such things under/for FreeBSD to 'network', share insights into the api's available, ideas regarding the interfaces, etc :) Sort of like hackers seems to be used for people developing the OS itself :) On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > I was wondering if there is perhaps a developers@freebsd.org > > type mailing list for people developing or porting applications, > > libraries, utilities, make announcements about releases for these > > things, post requests for testers, etc? > > The announce list is available for announcements and the like. If > you're looking for testers you generally want to pick the list that's > most likely to be read by the users you're interested in (eg. isp, > newbies, etc.) > > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 11:35:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21568 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:35:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21547 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01199; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810211838.LAA01199@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Licia cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a mailing list for applications developers? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:30:02 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:38:43 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Thank you for your reply :) I was thinking though, more of a > mailing list for people developing such things under/for FreeBSD > to 'network', share insights into the api's available, ideas regarding > the interfaces, etc :) Sort of like hackers seems to be used for people > developing the OS itself :) Hmm. Most of this already happens on -hackers, but that gets a bit noisy at times. There was some discussion of a commercial@freebsd.org for this sort of purpose (also for people to notify commercial developers of surprising changes coming up), but I don't recall if it ever got off the ground. If you think there's a need for this (you might want to talk to a few other developers and gather some support) then there'd be no trouble creating it I expect. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 11:38:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21945 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:38:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21938 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:38:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11164; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:37:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:37:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: Mike Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a mailing list for applications developers? In-Reply-To: <199810211838.LAA01199@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hmm good idea, thank you :) (running off to find people doing this kind of development :) ) On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Thank you for your reply :) I was thinking though, more of a > > mailing list for people developing such things under/for FreeBSD > > to 'network', share insights into the api's available, ideas regarding > > the interfaces, etc :) Sort of like hackers seems to be used for people > > developing the OS itself :) > > Hmm. Most of this already happens on -hackers, but that gets a bit > noisy at times. > > There was some discussion of a commercial@freebsd.org for this sort of > purpose (also for people to notify commercial developers of surprising > changes coming up), but I don't recall if it ever got off the ground. > > If you think there's a need for this (you might want to talk to a few > other developers and gather some support) then there'd be no trouble > creating it I expect. > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 12:19:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27344 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27329; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04945; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwinfamily.org (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07695; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199810211749.KAA00881@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: jobaldwi@vt.edu Organization: Virginia Tech From: John Baldwin To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... Cc: bde@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jobaldwi@vt.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Oct-98 Mike Smith wrote: >> >> I've been having a problem with rintf() not rounding properly, and I don't >> understand the code in /usr/src/libm/common_source/floor.c well enough to >> figure out where it is going wrong. Here is the problem I'm having though: > > We actually use the Sun-supplied math library, so you should be looking > at src/lib/msun/src/s_rintf.c That code's a lot more confusing. :) For what its worth, friends of mine using Linux are having the same problem, so it is probably no big deal. >> rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 >> rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) > > Unfortunately, I don't understand what these functions are doing > either, but it's worth noting that rint() suffers the same fate. > (Tested under 3.0). It's supposed to round the float (rint() uses double) parameter to the nearest integral parameter and return it in a float. It seems that some times when a value is an integer and exactly a half, it rounds down instead of up. > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc Every time I turn my computer on, nothing else gets done. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 14:40:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15780 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:40:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15731; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06458; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwinfamily.org (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28100; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199810211828.LAA01093@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:39:25 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: jobaldwi@vt.edu Organization: Virginia Tech From: John Baldwin To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, bde@FreeBSD.ORG, Bruce Evans Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On 21-Oct-98 Mike Smith wrote: >> >> I've been having a problem with rintf() not rounding properly, and I >> >> don't >> >> understand the code in /usr/src/libm/common_source/floor.c well enough to >> >> figure out where it is going wrong. Here is the problem I'm having >> >> though: >> > >> >We actually use the Sun-supplied math library, so you should be looking >> >at src/lib/msun/src/s_rintf.c >> > >> >> rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 >> >> rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) >> >> This seems to be correct. rintf() rounds to the nearest integer according >> to the prevailing rounding mode. The default prevailing rounding mode >> is round-to-even. rintf() even seems to get this right for all the >> other rounding modes (towards +Inf, towards -Inf and towards 0). > > Where do you set the rounding mode? The only reference I could find > was fpsetround(), which offers nearest, -inf, +inf and truncate. > > math(3) lists 3 types for ieee754 (+inf, -inf and 0). fpsetround(3) lists 4 types that are in an enum type. Here's a sample run demonstrating all four modes. v1=3.5 v2=4.5 r(x) = rintf(x): FP_RN: v1 = 3.500000 ; r(v1) = 4.000000 ; v2 = 4.500000 ; r(v2) = 4.000000 FP_RM: v1 = 3.500000 ; r(v1) = 3.000000 ; v2 = 4.500000 ; r(v2) = 4.000000 FP_RP: v1 = 3.500000 ; r(v1) = 4.000000 ; v2 = 4.500000 ; r(v2) = 5.000000 FP_RZ: v1 = 3.500000 ; r(v1) = 3.000000 ; v2 = 4.500000 ; r(v2) = 4.000000 Thus, for "normal" rounding, FP_RP (round to plus infinity) seems to be the desired mode. > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com - --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc ICna tpyr 100w rods pdr munuiet~!!1 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBNi5UYYjYza302vYpAQEzxwL/RXF8u84SMWVB+FFl/ie2hFXLEjDx2woV Y34YoaddqVQfYLVGqHns1BJf+DJk/o1/wNFL0LulX/PE2QWNJqMiDcZVF6d3bv/y wG6nBzZhhkyDgydDuyUQcj2Rv+fS4Wvr =4eCa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 16:24:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26988 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26971 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:24:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from fermion (fermion [10.0.1.2]) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA06846; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:17:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Message-Id: <199810220017.TAA06846@quark.ChrisBowman.com> X-Sender: crb@quark X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:10:31 -0400 To: EddieB From: "Christopher R. Bowman" Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... Cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199810211749.KAA00881@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:52 PM 10/21/98 -0500, EddieB wrote: > >> >> > rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 >> > rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) >> > >I haven't really the slightest clue about coding (Yea I'll admit it) but I >do remember from physics / chemistry classes that .5 #'s are rounded >different. IE: 3.5 rounds to 4.0 and 4.5 also rounds to 4.0. If the # >preceeding the .5 is even it just drops the .5, if the # preceeding the .5 >is odd, it rounds up (you always get an even # as an answer) > >Probably not what is happening with that but I was bored and decided to >write an email :) > >Jon > >EddieB/IRC >IRCop : irc.dragondata.com > NewNet HUB Server Never in all my life heard this, and I got 10 years of engineering education with more physics than I can shake a stick at, behind me. What logical reason is there for this? -------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com http://www.ChrisBowman.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 16:25:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27135 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:25:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell1.dragondata.com (shell1.dragondata.com [204.137.237.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27127 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eddieb@shell1.dragondata.com) Received: from localhost (eddieb@localhost) by shell1.dragondata.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24200; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:25:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from eddieb@shell1.dragondata.com) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:25:35 -0500 (CDT) From: EddieB To: "Christopher R. Bowman" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... In-Reply-To: <199810220017.TAA06846@quark.ChrisBowman.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I haven't really the slightest clue about coding (Yea I'll admit it) but I > >do remember from physics / chemistry classes that .5 #'s are rounded > >different. IE: 3.5 rounds to 4.0 and 4.5 also rounds to 4.0. If the # > >preceeding the .5 is even it just drops the .5, if the # preceeding the .5 > >is odd, it rounds up (you always get an even # as an answer) > > > >Probably not what is happening with that but I was bored and decided to > >write an email :) > > > >Jon > > > >EddieB/IRC > >IRCop : irc.dragondata.com > > NewNet HUB Server > > Never in all my life heard this, and I got 10 years of engineering education > with more physics than I can shake a stick at, behind me. > > What logical reason is there for this? > -------- > Christopher R. Bowman I was told it was so it was "fair" (for lack of a better term). In grade school they taught us that anything .5 or greater was rounded up but in physics (and chem) they told us to look to the preceeding digit and use that as a guide; if the digit is odd - round up, if the digit is even - leave it be. Maybe my education has been a lie thus far :) Jon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 19:00:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12078 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.15.68.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12037; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:00:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04831; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:00:12 +1000 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:00:12 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199810220200.MAA04831@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, mike@smith.net.au Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... Cc: bde@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jobaldwi@vt.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> >> rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 >> >> rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) >> >> This seems to be correct. rintf() rounds to the nearest integer according >> to the prevailing rounding mode. The default prevailing rounding mode >> is round-to-even. rintf() even seems to get this right for all the >> other rounding modes (towards +Inf, towards -Inf and towards 0). > >Where do you set the rounding mode? The only reference I could find >was fpsetround(), which offers nearest, -inf, +inf and truncate. One way is sufficent. >math(3) lists 3 types for ieee754 (+inf, -inf and 0). Also the standard type (round to even). Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 19:54:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17870 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:54:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from home.stratos.net ([207.87.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17854 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@home.stratos.net) Received: (qmail 15521 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Oct 1998 03:02:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19981021230200.A15504@net> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:02:00 -0400 From: Rob To: "Christopher R. Bowman" , EddieB Cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... References: <199810211749.KAA00881@dingo.cdrom.com> <199810220017.TAA06846@quark.ChrisBowman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199810220017.TAA06846@quark.ChrisBowman.com>; from Christopher R. Bowman on Wed, Oct 21, 1998 at 07:10:31PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 21, 1998 at 07:10:31PM -0400, Christopher R. Bowman wrote: > At 12:52 PM 10/21/98 -0500, EddieB wrote: > > > >> > >> > rintf(3.5) returns 4.0 > >> > rintf(3910.5) returns 3910.0 (should return 3911.0) > >> > > > >I haven't really the slightest clue about coding (Yea I'll admit it) but I > >do remember from physics / chemistry classes that .5 #'s are rounded > >different. IE: 3.5 rounds to 4.0 and 4.5 also rounds to 4.0. If the # > >preceeding the .5 is even it just drops the .5, if the # preceeding the .5 > >is odd, it rounds up (you always get an even # as an answer) > > > >Probably not what is happening with that but I was bored and decided to > >write an email :) > > > >Jon > > > >EddieB/IRC > >IRCop : irc.dragondata.com > > NewNet HUB Server > > Never in all my life heard this, and I got 10 years of engineering education > with more physics than I can shake a stick at, behind me. > > What logical reason is there for this? Come to think of it, I remember that to. Back in high school, I had a chemistry teacher who told us that we were supposed to round up on odd numbers and down on even numbers. The idea was that to not to would skew results somehow by always rounding one way. Observing those rules, you would "cancel out" your "round-up" bias. That's the way I learned it, anyway. -Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 21 21:25:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell1.dragondata.com (shell1.dragondata.com [204.137.237.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25200 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:25:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eddieb@shell1.dragondata.com) Received: from localhost (eddieb@localhost) by shell1.dragondata.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15965; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:24:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from eddieb@shell1.dragondata.com) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:24:54 -0500 (CDT) From: EddieB To: Rob cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bug in rintf()?... In-Reply-To: <19981021230200.A15504@net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Come to think of it, I remember that to. Back in high school, I > had a chemistry teacher who told us that we were supposed to round up on > odd numbers and down on even numbers. > The idea was that to not to would skew results somehow by always > rounding one way. Observing those rules, you would "cancel out" your > "round-up" bias. > > That's the way I learned it, anyway. > > -Rob Thank you for making me feel like I'm not totally crazy /:o) Jon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 22 03:54:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA19158 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 03:54:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA19153 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 03:54:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id MAA13653 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:54:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:54:05 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: For Whom The Beep Tolls Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 22 Oct 1998 12:54:02 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 43 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Newsgroups: xxx.xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx From: ahoerter@netcom.com Subject: For Whom The Beep Tolls Organization: ICGNetcom Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:13:33 GMT So this project that I'm working on has a requirement to migrate to WinNT... all ObNTAngst aside, I encountered one particular quirk that baffled, amused, and frightened me in one swell foop. After installing En Tee and a few in-house apps onto a fairly beefy machine, I make a few adjustments which, as with so many things, require a reboot to become effective. Dutifully restarting the box, I'm once again greeted by an invitation for a three-finger salute... but before I can lay a hand on the keyboard, the screen goes blue while the speaker emits a rapid squeal of agony. Boggle. Okay, what seems to have been in memory at the time... BEEP.SYS. Whuh? But that couldn't possibly... must be a random thing. Reboot. Squeal. Blue screen. On a lark, I disable the Beep device driver, which controls (wait for it...) the system speaker. No more blue screen. Works fine[0]. Yes, friends and neighbors, boys and girls-- my PC speaker crashed NT. It's pathetic in a sick sort of way; an "enterprise computing environment" brought to its knees by a beep of doom. Almost makes my old digs at a local ISP seem like Recovery. At least UNIX fails in simple and explainable ways, most of the time. -andrew ("not with a beep, but with a whimper") [0] "fine" being entirely a relative thing, in this case. -- "You'd be better advised to simply run along and contract a disfiguring disease of some sort, never to be heard from again." -- Geoff Miller ------- End of forwarded message ------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 22 09:19:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15968 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15963 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:19:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA25417; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:18:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981022101704.067a7f00@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:18:21 -0600 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: For Whom The Beep Tolls In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA15964 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:54 PM 10/22/98 +0200, Dag-Erling C. Smųrgrav wrote: >On a lark, I disable the Beep device driver, which controls (wait for it...) >the system speaker. > >No more blue screen. Works fine[0]. > >Yes, friends and neighbors, boys and girls-- my PC speaker crashed NT. >It's pathetic in a sick sort of way; an "enterprise computing environment" >brought to its knees by a beep of doom. > >Almost makes my old digs at a local ISP seem like Recovery. At least UNIX >fails in simple and explainable ways, most of the time. Cute story. On the other hand, FreeBSD's own speaker device -- the one written by Eric Raymond -- has made FreeBSD unstable when I've used it. So maybe the PC speaker is just jinxed? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 22 10:26:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25336 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:26:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25331 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18606; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:54:47 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <362F634B.6EAEEF86@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:54:35 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://ints.ml.org/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: "Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: For Whom The Beep Tolls References: <4.1.19981022101704.067a7f00@mail.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > Cute story. On the other hand, FreeBSD's own speaker device -- the one > written by Eric Raymond -- has made FreeBSD unstable when I've used it. > So maybe the PC speaker is just jinxed? It can work, Karlbridges/brouters use the PC speaker device to control the network activity light... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 22 10:36:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27206 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from priscilla.mu.org (priscilla.mu.org [206.152.116.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27179 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:36:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@priscilla.mu.org) Received: (from paul@localhost) by priscilla.mu.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14321 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:35:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19981022123509.A14309@mu.org> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:35:09 -0500 From: Paul Saab To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: freebsd in the news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/technology/zdnet/story.html?s=n/inter_ctive_week/technology/19981022/19981022601 paul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 22 10:51:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29894 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29888 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:51:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA26430; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:51:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981022115000.066f07e0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:51:17 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Who here is going to COMDEX? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The FreeBSD mailing lists probably aren't the right place for a discussion of COMDEX, so I've set up to host a discussion of how to survive the world's most massive trade show (including tips on travel, ground transportation, parking, hotels, getting around the show, how to escape from Microsoft's multi-acre booth, and more) at http://community.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/plogin/login.cgi?r=203256 Come and join in! --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 23 01:36:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07558 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07548 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:36:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from xroot@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14490 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810230837.BAA14490@implode.root.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new wcarchive record From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:37:04 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We set a new traffic record for wcarchive yesterday, 587GB. This beat the old number by more than 27% and is the first day that we broke the 1/2 TB threshold. The reason it happend was due to a zero-copy networking extension that I've written for FreeBSD and am testing out on wcarchive. I don't want to go into the details yet about this, but it will become a standard part of FreeBSD soon. The high number of files for the FreeBSD archive below are due to a denial of service attack that I didn't notice until a few minutes ago, but that has been going on for at least several days. A machine in Taiwan was continuously downloading the same tiny files over and over again, one file per session, and 50 sessions at a time. This didn't contribute substantially to the total file bytes sent out, however. The extra load on the machine caused by this was also minimal. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: burden@web1.cdrom.com Received: from wcarchive.cdrom.com (wcarchive.cdrom.com [209.155.82.18]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14247 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1.cdrom.com (web1.cdrom.com [209.155.82.19]) by wcarchive.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA11940 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from burden@localhost) by web1.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA09565 for ftp-stats@ftp.cdrom.com; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from burden) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) From: John Burden Message-Id: <199810230808.BAA09565@web1.cdrom.com> To: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com Subject: Dual Log Stats - 1998/10/23 Dual Log Stats : Oct 23 1998 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 587,668,275,994 587,668,275,994 New Record! Files 2,087,870 2,087,870 New Record! FTP Bytes 587,668,275,994 587,668,275,994 New Record! FTP Files 2,087,870 2,087,870 New Record! HTTP Bytes 58,081,249,072 -58,081,249,072 HTTP Files 567,700 -567,700 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /FreeBSD 123,520M 123,520M 0M 1,391,032 1,391,032 0 21.02 66.62 /3dfiles 86,850M 86,850M 0M 21,207 21,207 0 14.78 1.02 /linux 72,063M 72,063M 0M 273,991 273,991 0 12.26 13.12 /games 64,829M 64,829M 0M 21,927 21,927 0 11.03 1.05 /planetquake 41,500M 41,500M 0M 29,083 29,083 0 7.06 1.39 /simtelnet 36,266M 36,266M 0M 78,791 78,791 0 6.17 3.77 /idgames 33,585M 33,585M 0M 16,669 16,669 0 5.71 0.80 /gamesdomain 31,700M 31,700M 0M 6,308 6,308 0 5.39 0.30 /cnet 17,931M 17,931M 0M 16,755 16,755 0 3.05 0.80 /idgames2 17,073M 17,073M 0M 38,173 38,173 0 2.91 1.83 /3drealms 17,064M 17,064M 0M 18,752 18,752 0 2.90 0.90 /demos 13,793M 13,793M 0M 43,074 43,074 0 2.35 2.06 /audio 8,649M 8,649M 0M 25,271 25,271 0 1.47 1.21 /dresden 2,368M 2,368M 0M 4,874 4,874 0 0.40 0.23 /unreal 2,165M 2,165M 0M 6,083 6,083 0 0.37 0.29 /delphi 1,676M 1,676M 0M 13,175 13,175 0 0.29 0.63 /gutenberg 1,513M 1,513M 0M 5,544 5,544 0 0.26 0.27 /artpacks 1,360M 1,360M 0M 3,389 3,389 0 0.23 0.16 //ls-lR.gz 1,222M 1,222M 0M 246 246 0 0.21 0.01 /gt 1,002M 1,002M 0M 496 496 0 0.17 0.02 /jn4 949M 949M 0M 246 246 0 0.16 0.01 /japanese 945M 945M 0M 1,183 1,183 0 0.16 0.06 /tex 841M 841M 0M 18,603 18,603 0 0.14 0.89 /cheats 819M 819M 0M 2,740 2,740 0 0.14 0.13 /sac 816M 816M 0M 2,274 2,274 0 0.14 0.11 /perl 814M 814M 0M 11,160 11,160 0 0.14 0.53 /XFree86 732M 732M 0M 1,038 1,038 0 0.12 0.05 /povray 441M 441M 0M 915 915 0 0.08 0.04 /abuse 440M 440M 0M 433 433 0 0.07 0.02 /languages 437M 437M 0M 930 930 0 0.07 0.04 /novell 436M 436M 0M 2,267 2,267 0 0.07 0.11 /beos 418M 418M 0M 2,636 2,636 0 0.07 0.13 //ls-lR 374M 374M 0M 107 107 0 0.06 0.01 /delphideli 356M 356M 0M 1,396 1,396 0 0.06 0.07 /infozip 350M 350M 0M 1,690 1,690 0 0.06 0.08 /gnu 270M 270M 0M 375 375 0 0.05 0.02 /gus 177M 177M 0M 401 401 0 0.03 0.02 /avalon 161M 161M 0M 1,530 1,530 0 0.03 0.07 /java 156M 156M 0M 593 593 0 0.03 0.03 /os2 154M 154M 0M 894 894 0 0.03 0.04 /hamradio 146M 146M 0M 2,363 2,363 0 0.02 0.11 /unixfreeware 134M 134M 0M 427 427 0 0.02 0.02 /garbo 126M 126M 0M 799 799 0 0.02 0.04 /NetBSD 123M 123M 0M 7,812 7,812 0 0.02 0.37 /X11 121M 121M 0M 476 476 0 0.02 0.02 /security 120M 120M 0M 639 639 0 0.02 0.03 /bsd-sources 110M 110M 0M 220 220 0 0.02 0.01 /mozilla 71M 71M 0M 27 27 0 0.01 0.00 /math 63M 63M 0M 245 245 0 0.01 0.01 /4cust 61M 61M 0M 9 9 0 0.01 0.00 /tomahawk 54M 54M 0M 293 293 0 0.01 0.01 /cdrom 52M 52M 0M 880 880 0 0.01 0.04 /asme 45M 45M 0M 410 410 0 0.01 0.02 /x2ftp 39M 39M 0M 476 476 0 0.01 0.02 /mac 30M 30M 0M 258 258 0 0.01 0.01 /irc 26M 26M 0M 144 144 0 0.00 0.01 /algorithms 13M 13M 0M 2,675 2,675 0 0.00 0.13 /tcl 12M 12M 0M 97 97 0 0.00 0.00 /obi 12M 12M 0M 150 150 0 0.00 0.01 /netlib 9M 9M 0M 139 139 0 0.00 0.01 /wcarchive.jpg 8M 8M 0M 109 109 0 0.00 0.01 /ase 7M 7M 0M 67 67 0 0.00 0.00 /internet 7M 7M 0M 368 368 0 0.00 0.02 /viseng 7M 7M 0M 13 13 0 0.00 0.00 /sde 6M 6M 0M 28 28 0 0.00 0.00 /unix-c 4M 4M 0M 33 33 0 0.00 0.00 /python 3M 3M 0M 108 108 0 0.00 0.01 /README 2M 2M 0M 465 465 0 0.00 0.02 /MacSciTech 2M 2M 0M 22 22 0 0.00 0.00 /png 1M 1M 0M 94 94 0 0.00 0.00 //UPLOADS.TXT 1M 1M 0M 397 397 0 0.00 0.02 /wcarchive.txt 956k 956k 0k 298 298 0 0.00 0.01 //README 508k 508k 0k 732 732 0 0.00 0.04 /slow.txt 323k 323k 0k 229 229 0 0.00 0.01 //catalog 144k 144k 0k 3 3 0 0.00 0.00 /games_patches 38k 38k 0k 23 23 0 0.00 0.00 /msg.toomany 26k 26k 0k 68 68 0 0.00 0.00 //.message 16k 16k 0k 13 13 0 0.00 0.00 /.message 2k 2k 0k 9 9 0 0.00 0.00 /UPLOADS.TXT 2k 2k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 80 archives 587,668M 587,668M 0M 2,087,870 2,087,870 0 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 2,087,870 842,617 1,245,253 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 Hits (combo) 2,087,870 842,617 1,245,253 Bytes (FTP) 587,668,275,994 411,707,557,029 175,960,718,965 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 Bytes (combo) 587,668,275,994 411,707,557,029 175,960,718,965 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 8,041,658 25,278,531 293,227,005 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 154,476,821 Hits (combo) 8,041,658 25,278,531 447,703,836 Bytes (FTP) 3,037,364,009,475 12,351,226,710,890 126,500,867,604,554 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 10,106,100,542,342 Bytes (combo) 3,037,364,009,475 12,351,226,710,890 136,606,968,146,796 ------- End of Forwarded Message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 01:16:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25109 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25104 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:16:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from xroot@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00451; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810240816.BAA00451@implode.root.com> To: tech@cdrom.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: another record From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:16:46 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, yesterday's killer record of 587GB from wcarchive didn't last long. It's getting a bit "interesting" that we're so close to topping the terabyte/day threshold. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: burden@web1.cdrom.com Received: from wcarchive.cdrom.com (wcarchive.cdrom.com [209.155.82.18]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00229 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 00:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1.cdrom.com (web1.cdrom.com [209.155.82.19]) by wcarchive.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA17966 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 00:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from burden@localhost) by web1.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17278 for ftp-stats@ftp.cdrom.com; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 00:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from burden) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 00:56:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John Burden Message-Id: <199810240756.AAA17278@web1.cdrom.com> To: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com Subject: Dual Log Stats - 1998/10/24 Dual Log Stats : Oct 24 1998 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 724,051,464,379 724,051,464,379 New Record! Files 1,126,259 2,087,870 -961,611 FTP Bytes 724,051,464,379 724,051,464,379 New Record! FTP Files 1,126,259 2,087,870 -961,611 HTTP Bytes 58,081,249,072 -58,081,249,072 HTTP Files 567,700 -567,700 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /planetquake 147,394M 147,394M 0M 36,958 36,958 0 20.36 3.28 /3dfiles 138,989M 138,989M 0M 25,241 25,241 0 19.20 2.24 /FreeBSD 119,545M 119,545M 0M 473,772 473,772 0 16.51 42.07 /games 64,353M 64,353M 0M 20,567 20,567 0 8.89 1.83 /linux 60,068M 60,068M 0M 250,821 250,821 0 8.30 22.27 /idgames 34,653M 34,653M 0M 18,594 18,594 0 4.79 1.65 /gamesdomain 34,311M 34,311M 0M 7,222 7,222 0 4.74 0.64 /simtelnet 30,422M 30,422M 0M 60,189 60,189 0 4.20 5.34 /idgames2 17,572M 17,572M 0M 42,866 42,866 0 2.43 3.81 /cnet 16,698M 16,698M 0M 15,966 15,966 0 2.31 1.42 /3drealms 16,492M 16,492M 0M 26,340 26,340 0 2.28 2.34 /demos 12,717M 12,717M 0M 28,089 28,089 0 1.76 2.49 /audio 7,777M 7,777M 0M 22,389 22,389 0 1.07 1.99 /dresden 2,846M 2,846M 0M 4,733 4,733 0 0.39 0.42 /XFree86 2,058M 2,058M 0M 13,051 13,051 0 0.28 1.16 /unreal 1,882M 1,882M 0M 4,733 4,733 0 0.26 0.42 /artpacks 1,294M 1,294M 0M 2,713 2,713 0 0.18 0.24 /security 1,249M 1,249M 0M 587 587 0 0.17 0.05 /gt 1,063M 1,063M 0M 426 426 0 0.15 0.04 /jn4 1,041M 1,041M 0M 284 284 0 0.14 0.03 //ls-lR.gz 991M 991M 0M 190 190 0 0.14 0.02 /japanese 956M 956M 0M 3,862 3,862 0 0.13 0.34 /tex 881M 881M 0M 11,847 11,847 0 0.12 1.05 /sac 799M 799M 0M 2,253 2,253 0 0.11 0.20 /delphi 781M 781M 0M 7,414 7,414 0 0.11 0.66 /gutenberg 670M 670M 0M 2,819 2,819 0 0.09 0.25 /cheats 590M 590M 0M 1,625 1,625 0 0.08 0.14 /abuse 516M 516M 0M 401 401 0 0.07 0.04 /perl 500M 500M 0M 6,031 6,031 0 0.07 0.54 /irc 455M 455M 0M 1,121 1,121 0 0.06 0.10 /novell 390M 390M 0M 1,890 1,890 0 0.05 0.17 /bsd-sources 386M 386M 0M 832 832 0 0.05 0.07 /gnu 361M 361M 0M 494 494 0 0.05 0.04 /languages 356M 356M 0M 624 624 0 0.05 0.06 //ls-lR 353M 353M 0M 78 78 0 0.05 0.01 /povray 314M 314M 0M 1,149 1,149 0 0.04 0.10 /infozip 293M 293M 0M 1,471 1,471 0 0.04 0.13 /viseng 280M 280M 0M 172 172 0 0.04 0.02 /NetBSD 239M 239M 0M 9,448 9,448 0 0.03 0.84 /avalon 182M 182M 0M 1,601 1,601 0 0.03 0.14 /os2 177M 177M 0M 2,467 2,467 0 0.02 0.22 /gus 120M 120M 0M 276 276 0 0.02 0.02 /unixfreeware 110M 110M 0M 276 276 0 0.02 0.02 /garbo 100M 100M 0M 787 787 0 0.01 0.07 /X11 92M 92M 0M 212 212 0 0.01 0.02 /x2ftp 81M 81M 0M 557 557 0 0.01 0.05 /asme 81M 81M 0M 903 903 0 0.01 0.08 /mozilla 79M 79M 0M 22 22 0 0.01 0.00 /java 72M 72M 0M 424 424 0 0.01 0.04 /math 63M 63M 0M 407 407 0 0.01 0.04 /tomahawk 52M 52M 0M 217 217 0 0.01 0.02 /cdrom 46M 46M 0M 698 698 0 0.01 0.06 /delphideli 37M 37M 0M 262 262 0 0.01 0.02 /mac 36M 36M 0M 169 169 0 0.01 0.02 /tcl 32M 32M 0M 62 62 0 0.00 0.01 /beos 29M 29M 0M 86 86 0 0.00 0.01 /algorithms 22M 22M 0M 4,531 4,531 0 0.00 0.40 /netlib 14M 14M 0M 71 71 0 0.00 0.01 /hamradio 12M 12M 0M 96 96 0 0.00 0.01 /internet 10M 10M 0M 321 321 0 0.00 0.03 /ase 8M 8M 0M 183 183 0 0.00 0.02 /wcarchive.jpg 7M 7M 0M 89 89 0 0.00 0.01 /unix-c 4M 4M 0M 70 70 0 0.00 0.01 /obi 3M 3M 0M 42 42 0 0.00 0.00 /sde 2M 2M 0M 17 17 0 0.00 0.00 /png 2M 2M 0M 81 81 0 0.00 0.01 /README 2M 2M 0M 383 383 0 0.00 0.03 /python 1M 1M 0M 45 45 0 0.00 0.00 /MacSciTech 972k 972k 0k 32 32 0 0.00 0.00 //UPLOADS.TXT 971k 971k 0k 355 355 0 0.00 0.03 /wcarchive.txt 889k 889k 0k 277 277 0 0.00 0.02 //README 446k 446k 0k 641 641 0 0.00 0.06 /4cust 314k 314k 0k 3 3 0 0.00 0.00 /slow.txt 288k 288k 0k 204 204 0 0.00 0.02 //catalog 267k 267k 0k 5 5 0 0.00 0.00 /catalog 185k 185k 0k 3 3 0 0.00 0.00 /games_patches 56k 56k 0k 34 34 0 0.00 0.00 /mng 24k 24k 0k 5 5 0 0.00 0.00 /msg.toomany 23k 23k 0k 61 61 0 0.00 0.01 //.message 14k 14k 0k 11 11 0 0.00 0.00 /config 6k 6k 0k 2 2 0 0.00 0.00 //config 6k 6k 0k 2 2 0 0.00 0.00 /archive-info/configuration 3k 3k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 /.message 1k 1k 0k 6 6 0 0.00 0.00 - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 84 archives 724,051M 724,051M 0M 1,126,259 1,126,259 0 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 1,126,259 854,924 271,335 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 Hits (combo) 1,126,259 854,924 271,335 Bytes (FTP) 724,051,464,379 423,202,890,611 300,848,573,768 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 Bytes (combo) 724,051,464,379 423,202,890,611 300,848,573,768 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 8,062,447 25,647,722 294,353,264 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 154,476,821 Hits (combo) 8,062,447 25,647,722 448,830,095 Bytes (FTP) 3,312,381,278,245 12,696,086,718,358 127,224,919,068,933 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 10,106,100,542,342 Bytes (combo) 3,312,381,278,245 12,696,086,718,358 137,331,019,611,175 ------- End of Forwarded Message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 01:27:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25524 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25519 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03939 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:27:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:27:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3927.909217631.1@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----- =_aaaaaaaaaa" Content-Description: Blind Carbon Copy Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To: undisclosed-recipients:; ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Original Message To: MLam@mfi.com (May Lam) Cc: mckusick@cs.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:15:30 PDT." <001E4D04.CE21230@mfi.com> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:27:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3927.909217631@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Hmmmm. It's sort of too bad that you didn't take my edits back for the article which was eventually published, but the artwork you used to accompany it is an outright disaster. I'm all for competetive comparisions with Linux or I wouldn't have written the article in the first place, but showing a daemon outright skewering a penguin with his pitchfork only incites the basest of emotions in many readers and casts doubt over the entire article. If the author is willing to stoop to cheap tactics like going after the opposition's mascot, the logic goes, then the content must not be any better. Furthermore, you never gave me any inkling that such artwork might be used and I would never have approved or submitted the article for publication had I known you had something like this in mind. Not only is it incompatible with my goals for FreeBSD evangelism, but such use is also specifically prohibited by the trademark holder for the daemon image, Dr. Marshall Kirk McKusick (cc'd). Don't get me wrong - I've got as good a sense of humor as the next person and would probably have laughed had someone shown me such an image in private, but for a public article like this it's simply inappropriate in the extreme and I would greatly appreciate another, less potentially offensive, graphic in its place. I would also appreciate this message being cited in the feedback section so that people are aware of the fact that this was never my idea at all. I'm now likely to come under quite a bit of fire over this. :-( Best regards, - Jordan ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 01:36:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25928 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:36:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25920 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:36:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA02487; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:06:10 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA09941; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:06:07 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981024180607.A28824@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:06:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat , Kirk McKusick Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml References: <3927.909217631.1@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3927.909217631.1@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sat, Oct 24, 1998 at 01:27:11AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 X-Mutt-References: <3927.909217631.1@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 24 October 1998 at 1:27:11 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Hmmmm. It's sort of too bad that you didn't take my edits back for > the article which was eventually published, but the artwork you used > to accompany it is an outright disaster. I'm all for competetive > comparisions with Linux or I wouldn't have written the article in the > first place, but showing a daemon outright skewering a penguin with > his pitchfork only incites the basest of emotions in many readers and > casts doubt over the entire article. If the author is willing to > stoop to cheap tactics like going after the opposition's mascot, the > logic goes, then the content must not be any better. > > Furthermore, you never gave me any inkling that such artwork might be > used and I would never have approved or submitted the article for > publication had I known you had something like this in mind. Not only > is it incompatible with my goals for FreeBSD evangelism, but such use > is also specifically prohibited by the trademark holder for the daemon > image, Dr. Marshall Kirk McKusick (cc'd). Agreed in all points. > Don't get me wrong - I've got as good a sense of humor as the next > person and would probably have laughed had someone shown me such an > image in private, but for a public article like this it's simply > inappropriate in the extreme and I would greatly appreciate another, > less potentially offensive, graphic in its place. I think you're probably saying what I would "please get rid of that image, it's not too late", but the wording is not that strong. I think it should be. Maybe Kirk can send them a message saying "please remove, this infringes copyright". Nice article, BTW. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 07:07:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 07:07:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13845 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 07:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04815; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:06:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:06:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat , Kirk McKusick Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml In-Reply-To: <19981024180607.A28824@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Also , it seems the introduction on the "Features page" relies upon this graphic : "Linux might get all the hype, but it's not the only free UNIX. It might not even be the best. This online-only feature helps you get to the bottom of FreeBSD, so it's not just the penguin getting the point." ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 24 October 1998 at 1:27:11 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Hmmmm. It's sort of too bad that you didn't take my edits back for > > the article which was eventually published, but the artwork you used > > to accompany it is an outright disaster. I'm all for competetive > > comparisions with Linux or I wouldn't have written the article in the > > first place, but showing a daemon outright skewering a penguin with > > his pitchfork only incites the basest of emotions in many readers and > > casts doubt over the entire article. If the author is willing to > > stoop to cheap tactics like going after the opposition's mascot, the > > logic goes, then the content must not be any better. > > > > Furthermore, you never gave me any inkling that such artwork might be > > used and I would never have approved or submitted the article for > > publication had I known you had something like this in mind. Not only > > is it incompatible with my goals for FreeBSD evangelism, but such use > > is also specifically prohibited by the trademark holder for the daemon > > image, Dr. Marshall Kirk McKusick (cc'd). > > Agreed in all points. > > > Don't get me wrong - I've got as good a sense of humor as the next > > person and would probably have laughed had someone shown me such an > > image in private, but for a public article like this it's simply > > inappropriate in the extreme and I would greatly appreciate another, > > less potentially offensive, graphic in its place. > > I think you're probably saying what I would "please get rid of that > image, it's not too late", but the wording is not that strong. I > think it should be. Maybe Kirk can send them a message saying "please > remove, this infringes copyright". > > Nice article, BTW. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNjHezsGd9jPuKvqVAQHjEwP+K6P9XtxXJWUdurQusEQxInKHpUWPlwJC KnNeD+E1kMRNX0ZoYaARnO9IbGa5hPrJGb81cPx1pQ2IKIEZuF7bWCAhuXbzZn/f XzKkGpzyTixS/CglCtDsQN+u6tS/r64zY+08+ypQ2ibHgCjBzoBujx45+EiHTlLL fDNa7WyB86o= =Qy9N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 08:55:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20049 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 08:55:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20044 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 08:55:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA16141; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:55:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981024095232.0676e290@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:54:57 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml In-Reply-To: <3927.909217631.1@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:27 AM 10/24/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I'm all for competetive >comparisions with Linux or I wouldn't have written the article in the >first place, but showing a daemon outright skewering a penguin with >his pitchfork only incites the basest of emotions in many readers and >casts doubt over the entire article. If the author is willing to >stoop to cheap tactics like going after the opposition's mascot, the >logic goes, then the content must not be any better. I dunno, Jordan. I hear FreeBSD skewered (at least verbally) by the Penguin Hordes virtually every time I so much as mention that our local community network uses it. Maybe fair is fair. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 09:09:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21110 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:09:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bang.rain.com (bang.rain.com [204.119.8.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21105 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@bang.rain.com) Received: (from john@localhost) by bang.rain.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA17170; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:08:58 -0700 From: John Cavanaugh Message-Id: <199810241608.JAA17170@bang.rain.com> Subject: Re: another record To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810240816.BAA00451@implode.root.com> from "David Greenman" at Oct 24, 98 01:16:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, yesterday's killer record of 587GB from wcarchive didn't last > long. It's getting a bit "interesting" that we're so close to topping the > terabyte/day threshold. Why "interesting"? We still have a ways to go before you saturate the 100Mb ethernet don't we? (don't skewer me if i'm wrong, I haven't done the math) And I know that the Pro/100B isn't the "sticky" point as far as pumping data out to the rest of the world... Can you give us some more details on wcarchives other upcoming upgrades? You had mentioned putting a 400Mhz Xeon in. Is this change going to a allow more ftp sessions or just get the load average under 30 occasionally? Thanks! ;-) -- John Cavanaugh "There can be only one." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 10:59:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27364 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:59:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27359 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:59:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA11415; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:03:38 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981024095232.0676e290@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > I dunno, Jordan. I hear FreeBSD skewered (at least verbally) by the > Penguin Hordes virtually every time I so much as mention that our local > community network uses it. Maybe fair is fair. No, that sort of thing is what give Linux its reputation as being used by a bunch of immature teenage cracker wannabes. The thing that bugs me most about the entire Linux thing is the attitude of those who use it. Don't allow FreeBSD to stoop to that level. *Please*. sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"Remember how it all began http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | The apple and the fall of man" Consulting: http://www.efn.org/~seanh/ | --Natalie Merchant To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 11:20:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28607 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ime.net (ime.net [209.90.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28558 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:20:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4029.ime.net [209.90.195.39]) by ime.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23603; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981024114643.00a63ad0@genesis.ispace.com> Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981024114643.00a63ad0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:56:30 -0400 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml In-Reply-To: <3927.909217631.1@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nice article, definitely.. I especially liked the choice of graphic art, and the remark about Grandma's lung machine.. :) I guess the big thing is, the little teenies playing "elite hacker" isn't going to care about the whole GPL thing. It'd be kinda cool to see the ability to compile for any OS (ultimate compatibility) so you could tell FreeBSD "Well this compiled on Solaris.." and set a flag.. The word on the teen street is "FreeBSD can't compile smurf.c".. I guess a clean-cut userbase is a little better than ones that want to wreck stuff, but at the same time it's a +1 on the Linux side of things.. I installed RHS for a week and immediately killed the box, as it goes I'm playing with Solaris x86 (cost me 10 bucks, no args here) and I am still rather distraught of its lack of a C compiler, gzip, etc. so that one is clearly going out the door as well.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 11:20:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28739 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:20:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28729 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08760; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:20:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:54:57 MDT." <4.1.19981024095232.0676e290@127.0.0.1> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:20:00 -0700 Message-ID: <8756.909253200@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I doubt that two wrongs will ever make a right where this is concerned, nor does it represent what I'd like FreeBSD advocacy to be known for. - Jordan > At 01:27 AM 10/24/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >I'm all for competetive > >comparisions with Linux or I wouldn't have written the article in the > >first place, but showing a daemon outright skewering a penguin with > >his pitchfork only incites the basest of emotions in many readers and > >casts doubt over the entire article. If the author is willing to > >stoop to cheap tactics like going after the opposition's mascot, the > >logic goes, then the content must not be any better. > > I dunno, Jordan. I hear FreeBSD skewered (at least verbally) by the > Penguin Hordes virtually every time I so much as mention that our local > community network uses it. Maybe fair is fair. > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 11:23:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28908 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28903 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:23:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from xroot@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05442; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810241823.LAA05442@implode.root.com> To: John Cavanaugh cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: another record In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:08:58 PDT." <199810241608.JAA17170@bang.rain.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:23:44 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Well, yesterday's killer record of 587GB from wcarchive didn't last >> long. It's getting a bit "interesting" that we're so close to topping the >> terabyte/day threshold. > >Why "interesting"? > >We still have a ways to go before you saturate the 100Mb ethernet don't we? >(don't skewer me if i'm wrong, I haven't done the math) And I know that >the Pro/100B isn't the "sticky" point as far as pumping data out to the >rest of the world... The fast ethernet was maxed out for most of the day. It will be necessary to increase our circuit bandwidth before we'll be able to go much higher than this. Average packet size is less than 1000 bytes. Layer 2 packet overhead limits us to around 85-90Mbps with full duplex fast ether. The addition of layer 3 overhead reduces the actual throughput by even more. There is also more data going out than just files being downloaded (welcome message, messages that come out when you cd to various directories, directory listings, etc. - none of this is accounted for in the stats)...this actually amounts to more than you might think. The totals we're talking about only include the total number of downloaded file bytes sent out. >Can you give us some more details on wcarchives other upcoming upgrades? > >You had mentioned putting a 400Mhz Xeon in. Is this change going to a >allow more ftp sessions or just get the load average under 30 occasionally? > > >Thanks! ;-) The load average on a machine like wcarchive might just as well be a random number. It's a composite of both disk and CPU "load" and isn't useful in our case for determining the machine's potential. In fact, what is interesting is that the load average (which is typically around 25-60 on wcarchive, but varies a lot) is so LOW. Don't forget that we have *3500* file downloads go on. One might expect the load average to be well into the hundreds. As for planned upgrades, we'll be going to Xeon/4xx in a month or so. The main reason for doing this is the increased memory capacity - the new machine will have 4GB of RAM. This will allow us to increase the FTP limit to at least 10000 users. My main concern at the moment is that we don't have sufficient network bandwidth to support that many users (we're just hitting the limit of our 100Mbps circuit with 3500 users). We're talking with CRL about our options. I'm advocating gigabit ethernet, but we may have to settle for multiple 100Mbps circuits in the short term. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 11:42:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29812 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:42:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ime.net (ime.net [209.90.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29807 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4006.ime.net [209.90.195.16]) by ime.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26564; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981024143720.00a5fd90@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:37:23 -0400 To: dg@root.com, John Cavanaugh From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: another record Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And while you're at it, just send one of those 100MB's this way.. :-) At 11:23 AM 10/24/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >>> Well, yesterday's killer record of 587GB from wcarchive didn't last >>> long. It's getting a bit "interesting" that we're so close to topping the >>> terabyte/day threshold. >> >>Why "interesting"? >> >>We still have a ways to go before you saturate the 100Mb ethernet don't we? >>(don't skewer me if i'm wrong, I haven't done the math) And I know that >>the Pro/100B isn't the "sticky" point as far as pumping data out to the >>rest of the world... > > The fast ethernet was maxed out for most of the day. It will be necessary >to increase our circuit bandwidth before we'll be able to go much higher than >this. Average packet size is less than 1000 bytes. Layer 2 packet overhead >limits us to around 85-90Mbps with full duplex fast ether. The addition of >layer 3 overhead reduces the actual throughput by even more. There is also >more data going out than just files being downloaded (welcome message, >messages that come out when you cd to various directories, directory listings, >etc. - none of this is accounted for in the stats)...this actually amounts to >more than you might think. The totals we're talking about only include the >total number of downloaded file bytes sent out. > >>Can you give us some more details on wcarchives other upcoming upgrades? >> >>You had mentioned putting a 400Mhz Xeon in. Is this change going to a >>allow more ftp sessions or just get the load average under 30 occasionally? >> >> >>Thanks! ;-) > > The load average on a machine like wcarchive might just as well be a random >number. It's a composite of both disk and CPU "load" and isn't useful in our >case for determining the machine's potential. In fact, what is interesting >is that the load average (which is typically around 25-60 on wcarchive, but >varies a lot) is so LOW. Don't forget that we have *3500* file downloads go >on. One might expect the load average to be well into the hundreds. > As for planned upgrades, we'll be going to Xeon/4xx in a month or so. The >main reason for doing this is the increased memory capacity - the new machine >will have 4GB of RAM. This will allow us to increase the FTP limit to at >least 10000 users. My main concern at the moment is that we don't have >sufficient network bandwidth to support that many users (we're just hitting >the limit of our 100Mbps circuit with 3500 users). We're talking with CRL >about our options. I'm advocating gigabit ethernet, but we may have to >settle for multiple 100Mbps circuits in the short term. > >-DG > >David Greenman >Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 11:43:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00135 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:43:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ime.net (ime.net [209.90.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00128 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4006.ime.net [209.90.195.16]) by ime.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26759; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981024143720.00a5fd90@genesis.ispace.com> Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981024143720.00a5fd90@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:37:23 -0400 To: dg@root.com, John Cavanaugh From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: another record Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And while you're at it, just send one of those 100MB's this way.. :-) At 11:23 AM 10/24/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >>> Well, yesterday's killer record of 587GB from wcarchive didn't last >>> long. It's getting a bit "interesting" that we're so close to topping the >>> terabyte/day threshold. >> >>Why "interesting"? >> >>We still have a ways to go before you saturate the 100Mb ethernet don't we? >>(don't skewer me if i'm wrong, I haven't done the math) And I know that >>the Pro/100B isn't the "sticky" point as far as pumping data out to the >>rest of the world... > > The fast ethernet was maxed out for most of the day. It will be necessary >to increase our circuit bandwidth before we'll be able to go much higher than >this. Average packet size is less than 1000 bytes. Layer 2 packet overhead >limits us to around 85-90Mbps with full duplex fast ether. The addition of >layer 3 overhead reduces the actual throughput by even more. There is also >more data going out than just files being downloaded (welcome message, >messages that come out when you cd to various directories, directory listings, >etc. - none of this is accounted for in the stats)...this actually amounts to >more than you might think. The totals we're talking about only include the >total number of downloaded file bytes sent out. > >>Can you give us some more details on wcarchives other upcoming upgrades? >> >>You had mentioned putting a 400Mhz Xeon in. Is this change going to a >>allow more ftp sessions or just get the load average under 30 occasionally? >> >> >>Thanks! ;-) > > The load average on a machine like wcarchive might just as well be a random >number. It's a composite of both disk and CPU "load" and isn't useful in our >case for determining the machine's potential. In fact, what is interesting >is that the load average (which is typically around 25-60 on wcarchive, but >varies a lot) is so LOW. Don't forget that we have *3500* file downloads go >on. One might expect the load average to be well into the hundreds. > As for planned upgrades, we'll be going to Xeon/4xx in a month or so. The >main reason for doing this is the increased memory capacity - the new machine >will have 4GB of RAM. This will allow us to increase the FTP limit to at >least 10000 users. My main concern at the moment is that we don't have >sufficient network bandwidth to support that many users (we're just hitting >the limit of our 100Mbps circuit with 3500 users). We're talking with CRL >about our options. I'm advocating gigabit ethernet, but we may have to >settle for multiple 100Mbps circuits in the short term. > >-DG > >David Greenman >Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 11:44:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00201 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:44:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ime.net (ime.net [209.90.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00196 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:44:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4006.ime.net [209.90.195.16]) by ime.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27013 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.0.67.19981024144227.00a60c70@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1.0.67 (Beta) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:43:08 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Duplicate Post Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry bout the dupe.. I switched internet providers for all of 5 minutes, and their SMTP server decided to timeout on me while sending.. Reminder never to leave my actual provider ever again.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 15:42:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12755 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12750 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:42:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from higginsj@iname.com) Received: from iname.com (PHLAB304-42.splitrock.net [209.156.78.241]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id SAA08362; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <363257F0.5775CAE7@iname.com> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:42:56 -0400 From: James Higgins X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: another record References: <199810241823.LAA05442@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > * Long Snip * > > >Can you give us some more details on wcarchives other upcoming upgrades? > > > >You had mentioned putting a 400Mhz Xeon in. Is this change going to a > >allow more ftp sessions or just get the load average under 30 occasionally? > > > > > >Thanks! ;-) > > The load average on a machine like wcarchive might just as well be a random > number. It's a composite of both disk and CPU "load" and isn't useful in our > case for determining the machine's potential. In fact, what is interesting > is that the load average (which is typically around 25-60 on wcarchive, but > varies a lot) is so LOW. Don't forget that we have *3500* file downloads go > on. One might expect the load average to be well into the hundreds. This is something that has been in my mind for quite a while. Just exactly how is the load average on a machine calculated? It seems to very from OS to OS and I have never really been able to make much sense of it other than to tell if something really out of the ordinary is happening on a machine. (ie 6 hits at work and the load average shoots up I just ran into the daily backup, time to go home) > As for planned upgrades, we'll be going to Xeon/4xx in a month or so. The > main reason for doing this is the increased memory capacity - the new machine > will have 4GB of RAM. This will allow us to increase the FTP limit to at > least 10000 users. My main concern at the moment is that we don't have > sufficient network bandwidth to support that many users (we're just hitting > the limit of our 100Mbps circuit with 3500 users). We're talking with CRL > about our options. I'm advocating gigabit ethernet, but we may have to > settle for multiple 100Mbps circuits in the short term. One word: Wow! James Higgins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 17:15:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18609 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:15:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18604 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA07990; Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:14:48 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:14:47 +1100 (EST) From: Andrew Perry Reply-To: Andrew Perry To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml In-Reply-To: <3927.909217631.1@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan, would it help if others complained to the same address. Not only for the reasons you mentioned but also as the graphic is contrary to a few things you have mentioned in the article, such as the "Comparing FreeBSD to Linux" section and your conclusion. Your well balanced article gains an unfortunate "Linux bashings" slant just by that one graphic while the article itself does no such thing. Andrew Perry On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:27:11 -0700 > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > To: undisclosed-recipients: ; > Subject: Re: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml > [NON-Text Body part not included] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 18:01:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21397 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21392 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:01:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from xroot@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08820; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810250031.RAA08820@implode.root.com> To: James Higgins cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: another record In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:42:56 EDT." <363257F0.5775CAE7@iname.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:31:37 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> The load average on a machine like wcarchive might just as well be a random >> number. It's a composite of both disk and CPU "load" and isn't useful in our >> case for determining the machine's potential. In fact, what is interesting >> is that the load average (which is typically around 25-60 on wcarchive, but >> varies a lot) is so LOW. Don't forget that we have *3500* file downloads go >> on. One might expect the load average to be well into the hundreds. > >This is something that has been in my mind for quite a while. Just >exactly how is the load average on a machine calculated? It seems to >very from OS to OS and I have never really been able to make much sense >of it other than to tell if something really out of the ordinary is >happening on a machine. (ie 6 hits at work and the load average shoots >up I just ran into the daily backup, time to go home) The load average is the average number of processes either waiting for disk I/O to complete or that are currently in a RUN state. We have 37 disk drives on wcarchive, so with an average of only one I/O in progress on each drive, we'd have a load average that would start at 37, and that wouldn't account for any RUNing processes. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 21:39:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05714 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 21:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polysynaptic.iq.org (frame-gw.iq.org [203.4.184.233] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA05704 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 21:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from proff@polysynaptic.iq.org) Received: (qmail 8237 invoked by uid 110); 25 Oct 1998 04:39:02 -0000 Date: 25 Oct 1998 04:39:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19981025043902.8236.qmail@polysynaptic.iq.org> From: Julian Assange To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Travel plans. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm about to escape from the perils of a summer in ``the planet's most livable city'' (Melbourne, Australia) and go treking about the worlderful world of snow, ice, slush, and imploding communism. I'll be hop-scotching though the US, Western/Eastern europe, Russia, Mongolia and China (in that order). If anyone feels like getting together for beer, vodka, Siberian bear steak, or just a good yarn, please let me know. What follows is a (very) approximate itinerary. Home-grown accommodation, a warm hearth, pulsating ethernet, interesting company (or a pointer to it) is capable of shifting dates and leagues. I am backpacking through eastern Europe and Siberia, so no hovel, couch or spare room is too small (even in the SF bay area), and would be highly thought of :) 28 Oct 98 San Francisco 05 Nov 98 London 06 Nov 98 Frankfurt/Berlin 09 Nov 98 Poland / Slovenia / eastern-europe-on-a-shoe-string 15 Nov 98 Helsinki 16 Nov 98 St. Petersburg 20 Nov 98 Moscow (trans-siberian express) -> 25 Nov 98 Irtutsk 29 Nov 98 Ulan Bator 03 Dec 98 Beijing Cheers, Julian. -- Julian Assange |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks proff@iq.org |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 22:27:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08457 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:27:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bang.rain.com (bang.rain.com [204.119.8.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08451 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@bang.rain.com) Received: (from john@localhost) by bang.rain.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA17958; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:26:53 -0700 From: John Cavanaugh Message-Id: <199810250526.WAA17958@bang.rain.com> Subject: Re: another record To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810241823.LAA05442@implode.root.com> from "David Greenman" at Oct 24, 98 11:23:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Well, yesterday's killer record of 587GB from wcarchive didn't last > >> long. It's getting a bit "interesting" that we're so close to topping the > >> terabyte/day threshold. > > > >Why "interesting"? > > > >We still have a ways to go before you saturate the 100Mb ethernet don't we? > >(don't skewer me if i'm wrong, I haven't done the math) And I know that > >the Pro/100B isn't the "sticky" point as far as pumping data out to the > >rest of the world... > > The fast ethernet was maxed out for most of the day. It will be necessary > to increase our circuit bandwidth before we'll be able to go much higher than > this. Average packet size is less than 1000 bytes. Layer 2 packet overhead > limits us to around 85-90Mbps with full duplex fast ether. The addition of > layer 3 overhead reduces the actual throughput by even more. There is also > more data going out than just files being downloaded (welcome message, > messages that come out when you cd to various directories, directory listings, > etc. - none of this is accounted for in the stats)...this actually amounts to > more than you might think. The totals we're talking about only include the > total number of downloaded file bytes sent out. Wow. So we are somewhat topped out then. It still amazes me that this is just one box. ;-) > >Can you give us some more details on wcarchives other upcoming upgrades? > > > >You had mentioned putting a 400Mhz Xeon in. Is this change going to a > >allow more ftp sessions or just get the load average under 30 occasionally? > > > > > >Thanks! ;-) > > The load average on a machine like wcarchive might just as well be a random > number. It's a composite of both disk and CPU "load" and isn't useful in our > case for determining the machine's potential. In fact, what is interesting > is that the load average (which is typically around 25-60 on wcarchive, but > varies a lot) is so LOW. Don't forget that we have *3500* file downloads go > on. One might expect the load average to be well into the hundreds. Oh yeah, I wasn't meaning I wasn't impressed - just looking for what the benefits of the Xeon were going to be. > As for planned upgrades, we'll be going to Xeon/4xx in a month or so. The > main reason for doing this is the increased memory capacity - the new machine > will have 4GB of RAM. This will allow us to increase the FTP limit to at > least 10000 users. My main concern at the moment is that we don't have > sufficient network bandwidth to support that many users (we're just hitting > the limit of our 100Mbps circuit with 3500 users). We're talking with CRL > about our options. I'm advocating gigabit ethernet, but we may have to > settle for multiple 100Mbps circuits in the short term. Either way - that will be even more impressive. So, if we went specifically with the math from above, those 10000 users would be able to fill up about 3 100Mbps circuts. Would the Xeon be able to fill all of those pipes? (I guess you wouldn't be considering it if it wouldn't now would you? ;-)) Is the plan to just keep growing wcarchive to meet demand or maybe split the duties across multiple machines? Looking at the stats that you've posted recently, it looks like the FreeBSD directories always get a lot of traffic, but when some new first person shooter (or in this case, 3rd person shooter - Heretic II), comes out, those directories traffic goes through the roof. Do you think it would be better to carve off certain sections of the main archive for bandwidth reasons? What solution do you think is the best? Thanks. -- John Cavanaugh "There can be only one." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 24 23:23:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11427 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:23:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11422 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from xroot@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14829; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810250623.XAA14829@implode.root.com> To: John Cavanaugh cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: another record In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:26:52 PDT." <199810250526.WAA17958@bang.rain.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:23:33 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Either way - that will be even more impressive. So, if we went specifically >with the math from above, those 10000 users would be able to fill up about >3 100Mbps circuts. Would the Xeon be able to fill all of those pipes? >(I guess you wouldn't be considering it if it wouldn't now would you? ;-)) Yes, I think 250-300Mbps of bandwidth will be needed to support 10000 users. As things are right now with my current set of performance improvements, I'd say that the Xeon/400 should be able to support around 7500 users. I have some additional improvements planned which will take as far past 10000 users, but I don't want to make any precise guesses until I've done the work and benchmarked the results. >Is the plan to just keep growing wcarchive to meet demand or maybe split >the duties across multiple machines? I'd like to keep it as a single machine. The whole idea is to show people how far FreeBSD can scale and how well it works on (relatively) inexpensive hardware. Our ISP would very much like us to put another server on the east coast, however, in order to better balance the traffic loads. I don't really want to do that until the physical limits of the hardware have been reached. >Looking at the stats that you've posted recently, it looks like the >FreeBSD directories always get a lot of traffic, but when some new >first person shooter (or in this case, 3rd person shooter - Heretic II), >comes out, those directories traffic goes through the roof. Do you >think it would be better to carve off certain sections of the main archive >for bandwidth reasons? > >What solution do you think is the best? Thanks. I'm not sure what we're going to do about the games demos. It really bothers me that game companies are getting so much of our bandwidth to promote their products, while leaving WC CDROM to pay the bill. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message