From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 00:29:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01995 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01980 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from Pentium_PC (dialup510.serv.net [207.207.70.75]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA24478; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614002726.007fa8c0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:27:26 -0700 To: pirat sriyotha , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:01 PM 6/14/98 +0700, you wrote: >> I managed to log onto my Win95 box (running an FTP server program) from >> FreeBSD, transfer some files, etc (via ethernet). > >how do you do this, sorry this is not a question but astonish. >as i know, one can ftp from 95 to bsd machine only but on the reverse way >one can not do it with out error. You have to run an FTP server on the Win95 machine (there are many out there), otherwise you will just get errors. I use a program called War-FTPD on the Win95 machine, which is an FTP *server* (not a client). The Win95 server program listens on port 21. That allows Win95 to receive and process the packets from the FreeBSD machine. >now a knid of request instead. would you please propagate or show us what >you have done in you net'work' in order for all newbies to get it. What kind of things would you like to know? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 00:36:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02436 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.ionet.net (mail.ionet.net [206.41.128.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02336 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phitaly@ionet.net) Received: from ionet.net (pxnas2-37.ionet.net [209.54.49.97]) by mail.ionet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA23790 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:36:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35837E9B.C5EAFC5@ionet.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:41:15 -0700 From: Christopher Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD newbies mailing list Subject: Testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just checking to see if this works.. can anyone see this message? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 01:10:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05588 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05558 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:10:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA04829; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:10:18 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980614181014.41433@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:10:14 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! References: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:42:41PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:42:41PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > I managed to log onto my Win95 box (running an FTP server program) from > FreeBSD, transfer some files, etc (via ethernet). Now, I need to get it > working the other way around. FreeBSD still doesn't like something about > Win95's method of trying to FTP to it. I've tried multiple FTP clients on > WIn95; none of them work. I suspect something's set up wrong on FreeBSD as > far as the ftp daemon goes. Anyone have any ideas? > > (OK, OK, not the place for questions, but this was MAINLY a cheer for > myself and a pat on the back, not a question post). No list admins getting > on my case, please :-) Why? Boasting is specifically stated as one of the preferred uses of freebsd-newbies. C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S ! ! ! How on earth did you get windoze to be an FTP server? What program? FWIW, I ftp to my freebsd box from win95 often. Hit the silly button in the corner, click on run and type 'ftp' in there. Treat it much like a real ftp client, but *caution!* remember to tell it whether binary or ascii before each file transfer, coz if you give it half a chance it'll do you in. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 01:22:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06733 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:22:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06722 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from Pentium_PC (dialup546.serv.net [207.207.70.111]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA26161 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614012225.007e6580@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:22:25 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: My hardware setup (and ME) in detail... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The unofficial fewtch@serv.net FAQ ---------------------------------- For those who were wondering about my setup (which is unusual) and a little about me thrown in just FYI and for ego purposes, here is the information: My "main" (most used) machine is a P200MMX/HX chipset motherboard with 64 megs RAM, running Win95 exclusively and fully equipped with a Tseng ET-6000 based video card, CDROM drive, modem, PCI-based sound card, 2 gig hard drive, Syquest SparQ 1 gig removable, scanner, printer, etc. I have this main PC connected to a second PC (described below) via Ethernet crossover cable (no hub) using 3com 3c503 ISA Ethernet cards, and a switchbox which allows the two machines to share the same monitor, mouse and keyboard. The second machine is a 486-66 (soon to be upgraded to 486-133) with generic Vesa Local Bus motherboard, ATI Mach32 VLB video card, 32 megs RAM and a 2.1 gig hard drive in a triple boot configuration (Win95, Win NT and FreeBSD). Booting is controlled with Boot Manager (made famous by OS/2 and included with the "Partition Magic" drive partitioning program). The first primary partition is boot manager, the second the FreeBSD partition, the third Win95. There is also an extended partition with Windows NT installed on it (when I boot to the Win95 partition, I get a menu letting me select either Win95 on C: or Win NT on D:). Win95 and NT can both access each other since they're both on FAT file systems, the FreeBSD machine can access any of it supposedly. The machine has no CDROM drive, no modem, a sound card unsupported by FreeBSD (Ensoniq Soundscape). I have 1 gig dedicated to FreeBSD, with the rest shared between Windows 95 and Win NT (yes, they both fit fine in 1 gig of space, but not a lot of room for many applications - most of my apps are on my main machine though - the second machine is mostly a testbed for software and OS's). I built both machines myself, from "scratch" (in quotes because "building" a PC doesn't mean building it from electronic components). I installed FreeBSD by downloading it via modem on the primary machine to my Syquest SparQ drive, and copying the entire install tree over to the Win95 partition on the second machine via Ethernet, then choosing "install from a DOS partition" when requested by the FreeBSD sysinstall utility. A tedious process, to say the least, and a real pain when package dependencies arise (better now though that I'm able to FTP to the Win95 machine while in FreeBSD, which makes new package installs much easier using pkg_add). A little about me, too - I've been into computers for 15 years (first computer was a Commodore 64 in 1983), and have owned every kind of Intel machine up to P5 (I've owned 8088's, 286's, 386's, 486's, Pentiums and have used AMD chips as well in some machines). I've never used anything above a P5 (can't really afford a P2II system and don't want to go with AMD K6/K7 as of yet, although that may be coming down the road). I'm working on an Electronics Technician certificate (completed basic and advanced main courses (the "bin" install part of the program) :-) and will be resuming classes in the fall (night classes) - 1 to 2 more years to go, the rest is all details, not basics. I'm currently out of work and on disability payments, which will not go on for more than the next couple more years (I'm basically able to work full time now probably). I'm building a workshop in my garage and plan on starting a very small PC build/repair upgrade business in the near future, with maybe some custom programming on the side. I've been a BASIC programmer since 1983 and have used QuickBASIC 4.5, PowerBASIC, VB3, 4 and 5. I also know some C programming (took a beginning and advanced course but forgot a lot of it.. I guess now is my chance to remember now that I'm running FreeBSD). C++ I took one basic course in and found that I hated the language - it seems to me to be a hack of C, and the syntax and grammar are just too bizarre for me to comprehend. Give me RAD tools and Visual Basic type stuff any day :-) On the BSD side, interpreted or compiled scripts are nice, too, and I look forward to playing with Perl in the future as well as doing some C programming/relearning. I hope that explained things fairly well (if not, just type "man fewtch" the next time you start FreeBSD :-). Questions to fewtch@serv.net directly please (not via the mailing list). Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 01:28:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07399 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07386 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:28:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from Pentium_PC (dialup546.serv.net [207.207.70.111]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA26335; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614012808.007ea100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:28:08 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! Cc: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980614181014.41433@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:10 PM 6/14/98 +1000, you wrote: > C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S ! ! ! > > >How on earth did you get windoze to be an FTP server? What program? Actually, there are a ton of freeware FTP servers available for Win95 (check out Tucows). I use War-FTPD, and any would probably work fine. >FWIW, I ftp to my freebsd box from win95 often. Hit the silly button in >the corner, click on run and type 'ftp' in there. Treat it much like a >real ftp client, but *caution!* remember to tell it whether binary or >ascii before each file transfer, coz if you give it half a chance it'll >do you in. I *still* haven't gotten this working. The machines connect, then just sit there forever with "socket connected.. waiting for welcome message." Something is misconfigured in my BSD setup. My main need though will be to access files from my Win95 machine though, rather than my BSD machine. Win95 has very little use for Unix files :-) Unix is much more flexible and can do a lot with DOS/Win stuff (emulators included) as well as using it to download new packages and other downloaded Gzip'd Unix software from my main machine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 01:30:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07565 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07478 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:29:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from Pentium_PC (dialup546.serv.net [207.207.70.111]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA26401; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614012948.007e4dd0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:29:48 -0700 To: Christopher Cox , FreeBSD newbies mailing list From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Testing In-Reply-To: <35837E9B.C5EAFC5@ionet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arrrgh... I just went blind... I'm suing you for damages caused by your blindingly visible message! At 12:41 AM 6/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >Just checking to see if this works.. can anyone see this message? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 04:30:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27686 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 04:30:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA27674 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 04:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05199; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:29:58 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980614212954.64494@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:29:54 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: Christopher Cox , FreeBSD newbies mailing list Subject: Re: Testing References: <35837E9B.C5EAFC5@ionet.net> <3.0.5.32.19980614012948.007e4dd0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614012948.007e4dd0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 01:29:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 01:29:48AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 12:41 AM 6/14/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Just checking to see if this works.. can anyone see this message? > > Arrrgh... I just went blind... I'm suing you for damages caused by your > blindingly visible message! > Huh? What was that? What blindingly visible message? I didn't see anything. I still can't ... hey, where's my screen gone... who turned the lights out... Aaah, I get it. Yes, this has happened before. There must be a new newbie come to join us. As soon as he says hello and tells us where he's up to with FreeBSD our screens will light up again :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 09:32:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23145 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:32:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22928 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:31:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup426.serv.net [207.207.70.27]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA10103 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614093142.007e5100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:31:42 -0700 To: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: YES! MORE SUCCESS! CHEER FOR ME!!! :-) In-Reply-To: <19980614181014.41433@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After hacking around for hours, I *FINALLY* figured out why I couldn't connect to FreeBSD via anonymous FTP from Win95. First, some things were off on the Win95 side of things (I don't remember what), and I fixed those (I don't even know what I did, really, that got it working). Then I found that I could connect, but it took at least 3 minutes... I got a "Connected.. waiting for greeting message" and it would just sit there for 2-3 minutes, then finally connect and log me in. The final solution lied in /etc/hosts and /etc/host.conf on the FreeBSD machine. First, I added my Win 95 PC's IP address to the /etc/hosts file. Then I looked in host.conf and found the default was to use the nameserver first, THEN fall back to to hosts. Being that I didn't have a name server active (and couldn't figure out how to get it working anyway), no wonder it was sitting there waiting for a nonexistent host name to appear. So I commented out the BIND statement in host.conf and PRESTO! Instant connect via FTP using xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx (to heck with names, who needs 'em anyway on a 2-machine network?) Next project - anyone know of any good web server daemons out there? (didn't see anything built into FreeBSD). Might be fun to set up my own private 2-machine intranet with WWW access!!! -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 10:15:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28477 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28436 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup422.serv.net [207.207.70.23]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA11997 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614101444.007e4860@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:14:44 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Anti-Windows and MS prejudice? In-Reply-To: <35837E9B.C5EAFC5@ionet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I hope there isn't a lot of MS and Windows bashing going on in here. If I find there is, I'll unsubscribe immediately. There's enough of that garbage cluttering up Usenet, and I refuse to get it in my mailbox as well. To anyone reading this message: If you have a gripe against Win95 or Win NT, I don't want to hear about it (I don't care of course if it's in a message to another person). But if it arrives in my mailbox, future messages from you will be immediately filtered out. I just despise OS wars, having encountered too much of it from all sides. If you hate Windows or Microsoft, go plant dynamite around the Redmond campus, but leave me out of it. Thanks, Tim fewtch@serv.net -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 10:20:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29440 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29388 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:20:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (pm03-23.aei.ca [206.123.6.173]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15702; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358405CE.79243562@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:18:06 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Windows and MS prejudice? References: <3.0.5.32.19980614101444.007e4860@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > I hope there isn't a lot of MS and Windows bashing going on in here. If I > find there is, I'll unsubscribe immediately. There's enough of that > garbage cluttering up Usenet, and I refuse to get it in my mailbox as well. > > To anyone reading this message: If you have a gripe against Win95 or Win > NT, I don't want to hear about it (I don't care of course if it's in a > message to another person). But if it arrives in my mailbox, future > messages from you will be immediately filtered out. I just despise OS > wars, having encountered too much of it from all sides. If you hate > Windows or Microsoft, go plant dynamite around the Redmond campus, but > leave me out of it. > > Thanks, > > Tim > fewtch@serv.net In fact there is no flaming here, specially on newbies@freebsd.org. Your msg was garbage and waste of time for me, to. If you dont want we flame win95, dont talk about it! Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 11:27:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08766 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:27:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (root@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08731 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@krivis.com) Received: from carbon (as4-12.apk.net [207.54.160.163]) by junior.apk.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA09009; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806141826.OAA09009@junior.apk.net> From: "Stuart Krivis" To: "freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org" , "Tim Gerchmez" Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:22:48 -0400 Reply-To: "Stuart Krivis" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows NT (4.0.1381;3) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Anti-Windows and MS prejudice? Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:14:44 -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >messages from you will be immediately filtered out. I just despise OS >wars, having encountered too much of it from all sides. If you hate >Windows or Microsoft, go plant dynamite around the Redmond campus, but >leave me out of it. I remember a person with a similar name that used to winvocate mercilessly. this person used to troll the OS/2 groups on Fidonet and usenet, trying to convince people of the merits of MSware. Nah, must have been another Gerchmez.... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.0 (C) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc iQA/AwUBNYQU+HHCG1Y55htMEQK+6ACeN2KD/O/bNoF7mJTnVneQS9uzOpYAoJHy h1JOLwcxwGjgnNbqDStVq5p+ =i7SJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 11:40:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10756 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paul.rutgers.edu (talukdar@paul.rutgers.edu [128.6.5.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10702 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:40:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from talukdar@paul.rutgers.edu) Received: (from talukdar@localhost) by paul.rutgers.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09233 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:40:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Anup Talukdar Message-Id: <199806141840.OAA09233@paul.rutgers.edu> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Please ignore, testing Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org testing To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 12:28:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16784 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-32-11.bellatlantic.net [151.197.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16633 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:27:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA01450 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:27:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:27:21 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Windows and MS prejudice? In-Reply-To: <199806141826.OAA09009@junior.apk.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Stuart Krivis wrote: > On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:14:44 -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > >messages from you will be immediately filtered out. I just despise OS > >wars, having encountered too much of it from all sides. If you hate > >Windows or Microsoft, go plant dynamite around the Redmond campus, but > >leave me out of it. > > I remember a person with a similar name that used to winvocate > mercilessly. this person used to troll the OS/2 groups on Fidonet and > usenet, trying to convince people of the merits of MSware. > > Nah, must have been another Gerchmez.... > rantBegin(); What I really don't understand is why people are so adamant about it. My opinion is that you should use the OS that best suits your needs. Windows has advantages as do all Unices and UNIX derived OS's as does OS/2 and any other OS you care to talk about.... with the exception of maybe MacOS which we all trash.. :) UNIX in general is very stable and reliable and lacks the overhead that many 100% GUI OS's place on their users. Modern unices are 32 or 64 bit environments and bypass many of the problems encountered in say DOS or Windows 3.X. Windows * is easy to use and quick to setup and it is well suited to the majority of the people out there. Alot, users don't care that they can change the behavior of their application or that this whizzbang is better than that doflop. Also, there are the people, and more of them than some are willing to admit, that don't care how fast or stable the thing is as long as it works and is easy to use. I just personally wish the world would get over this. The whole argument is pointless. People are religous about their choice of OS and one thread on why one sucks and the other sparkles is not going to change their mind. rantEnd(); James Disclaimer: No machines, OS's, penguins, daemons, or windows were harmed, broken, smashed, mistreated, abused, razzed, or taunted in the making of this rant. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 12:41:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18226 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18181 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06269; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:02:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980614120205.14122@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:02:05 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! References: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:42:41PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:42:41PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > I managed to log onto my Win95 box (running an FTP server program) from > FreeBSD, transfer some files, etc (via ethernet). Now, I need to get it > working the other way around. FreeBSD still doesn't like something about > Win95's method of trying to FTP to it. I've tried multiple FTP clients on > WIn95; none of them work. I suspect something's set up wrong on FreeBSD as > far as the ftp daemon goes. Anyone have any ideas? Yep. Depends on the problem you're seeing though. First, what happens if you ftp to the FreeBSD machine using the CLI Win95 FTP client? In Windows start a DOS box, and then type C:\> ftp name.of.freebsd.box That should immediately connect to the FreeBSD box and prompt for a username and password. After that it should let you in and you can FTP as normal. If that works then there's something wrong with your Windows clients. Is it possible that they're trying to do anonymous FTP? As I recall, FreeBSD isn't set up to allow that by default. If running FTP from the DOS box doesn't work, can you telnet to the FreeBSD machine? If you can telnet to it but can't FTP to it then it looks as though the FreeBSD box isn't set up to handle FTP. Check /etc/inetd.conf for a line that looks like ftp stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/ftpd ftpd -l (it should be the first non-comment line in that file). If that line doesn't exist or has been commented out (and you're not running an ftp daemon full time) then you need to add it to have FTP started for incoming requests. If you can't telnet to the FreeBSD machine either then there's some other problem. FWIW, if it looks the telnet (or FTP) is just hanging, leave it for a few minutes. It might be you have nameserver problems -- the name service routines will wait 2 minutes for an answer before continuing. If there's a 2 minute pause and things then start working that's a sure sign of name service problems (which can also be diagnosed and fixed). N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 12:41:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18358 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18346 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05235; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:53:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980614115349.01758@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:53:49 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Sue Blake , Muthukumar Ratty Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing PAO References: <19980614072740.43591@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980614072740.43591@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 07:27:40AM +1000 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 07:27:40AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > Wow, FreeBSD on a laptop! I'm envious :-) But first things first... > > There's a lot of people at freebsd-questions@freebsd.org who can help you > if you send your question there. Also freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org. N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 12:42:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18449 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18359 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02050; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:28:38 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980614112838.55127@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:28:38 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Stuart Krivis , Nik Clayton Cc: Tim Parkinson , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What do people on the list use FreeBSD for? References: <19980613112413.17708@nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Stuart Krivis on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:49:42AM -0400 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:49:42AM -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote: > On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Nik Clayton wrote: > > > and probably other bits and pieces. > > All of which simply says that FreeBSD can do just about anything that any > other unix can (within the limits of the PC hardware and availability of > commercial software.) Oh, absolutely. > > It's not used as much at my current job because we're pretty much a Solaris > > shop. I do use it as my desktop workstation though. > > Even then, PC unix can be very cost-effective for certain things. And > FreeBSD or Linux are much less expensive than Solaris x86. :-) Yeah. Some of our internal firewall and masquerading kit runs FreeBSD and Linux. But our webservers, nameservers and so on are all Solaris for the suit's peace of mind. > > and I plan on experimenting with Amancio's suggestions for how to set up > > a FreeBSD box+modem+soundcard as an answerphone. > > I tried this out on my Mac. It was kind of cool to do, but a standard > answering machine is a better solution. :-) Sorry, I stopped paying attention to that sentence after the "kind of cool" phrase. Besides, you can't do telephone trees with a standard answerphone, nor can it mail you your messages as attachments, or play different greeting based on the CLID. . . N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 12:43:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18670 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18533 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04840; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:51:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980614115126.28720@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:51:26 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , Nik Clayton , Donald Burr , DrAcO Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing X-Windows References: <3.0.5.32.19980613015739.007e36a0@mx.serv.net> <3581B36E.C76B5891@mci2000.COM> <3.0.5.32.19980613015739.007e36a0@mx.serv.net> <19980613111334.15162@nothing-going-on.org> <3.0.5.32.19980613223112.007e1270@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980613223112.007e1270@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:31:12PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 10:31:12PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 11:13 AM 6/13/98 +0100, you wrote: > >> Also of mention in FreeBSD is xdm, a windows manager that can help > >> integrate several different X-clients. > > > >xdm isn't a window manager. > > Well, true. Let me restate. It's a Window Manager manager. Better? Nope. I'm being pedantic, but since this is a newbies forum I think that's necessary. >From xdm(1) Xdm manages a collection of X displays, which may be on the local host or remote servers. The design of xdm was guided by the needs of X terminals as well as the X Con- sortium standard XDMCP, the X Display Manager Control Pro- tocol. Xdm provides services similar to those provided by init, getty and login on character terminals: prompting for login name and password, authenticating the user, and running a ``session.'' which is not what an X Window Manager does. A window manager is responsible for the 'decorations' around your windows (title bars, close buttons and so on) and the extra functionality that allows you to move windows, iconise them, put them on different workspaces/virtual desktops etc. > >At its simplest, xdm is a graphical replacement > >for getty and login, letting you log in to X straight away, with no > >intermediate console login > > How would you set it up to do that, if *root* has to log in first via the > console to start it? Root doesn't have to (well, not via the console anyway). Two lines like /usr/X11R6/bin/xdm sleep 1 in /etc/rc.local (as outlined in the FAQ question "How do I start XDM from the /etc/ttys file?") will start xdm when the machine boots. > I know this isn't the place for questions, but I'm asking you (Nik) > personally. Email me the answer personally, if you have it. I've sent it to the list as well, to stave off a possible flood of people asking for the same information. > >and then having to type 'startx' (or whatever > >you use), although it can do more than that. > > Some of the things *I* like about it as a newbie: > > * It passes pertinent info onto any client it starts, so I don't have to > worry about $DISPLAY (which isn't set at all on my system for some reason) That is bizarre. Does a % cd $HOME % grep DISPLAY .* ... % grep DISPLAY /etc/profile /etc/csh* show that the DISPLAY variable is being set somewhere when you log in? When I login on the console the DISPLAY is unset. After I've run "startx" then DISPLAY is set to ":0.0" (without the quotes) which is right. I do nothing to change this default behviour, so it sounds like there's something odd in your startup files somewhere. > * I like the idea in the future of setting up my system to be graphical > from start to finish (the 'real' main purpose of xdm). Yep. I did this as well for a while. > >> For those that haven't, try typing xdm while logged on as root (only > >> root can use it). > > > >Nope. It's meant to be started by root, probably as one of the things in > >/etc/rc.local (there's a FAQ question about this). > > My mistake, only root can START it, that's what I meant (not that only root > can USE it once it's going). Sorry I wasn't clear on that. Yep. > >That's the point. xdm is managing your login, so when you quit X xdm thinks > >you've logged out, and throws up another login prompt. > > Yah, I know, but for someone who just uses it as a program to manage > multiple clients, I'm getting confused by your terminology. In X, almost everything is a client. xterms, netscape, xasteroids (), all these are 'clients' of the X server. xdm doesn't manage clients, it manages displays. Which window manager are you using? > >It's less useful on a single user workstation (unless you *know* that > >you're going to be running X as soon as your computer finishes booting, > >in which case you may as well use it, and put a pretty picture on the > >"Login" background :-) ) > > I don't agree. I use it to integrate multiple X clients (I haven't settled > on one yet by a LONG shot. I don't want to have to remember the names and > parameters of all the various X clients I play with, and xdm is good for > making that easier. As I say, I don't follow this with your terminology. > Anyway, I've said my piece on all this. *For me*, xdm is very useful on my > desktop, as it integrates all my X clients. My attitude on what it > does/can do/supposed to be used for is "take what I want/need and leave the > rest." I could care less about its abilities as a login manager, I'm a > single user who would actually prefer no security whatsoever and a DOS-like > bootup into FreeBSD (what does a single-user, one person system in a *HOME* > need a login/password for, anyway?), Protection. You could run a system where 'root' had no password and you used that account the entire time. But that's not the 'Unix way'. If you do do it that way you (IMHO) lose a vast amount of flexibility in how you configure your system. It also protects you from your mistakes. The '#' prompt is (for me) a useful psychological reminder that if I screw up whatever I'm doing at that point it's got repercussions for the entire machine, and not just that part of it that I use every day. > and the chooser is the most important aspect of it for me. Fair enough? Yep. Each to their own and all that. It does sound like there's something odd with your config files though. If you'd like a hand tracking that down feel free to give me a shout (not to this address, to nik@freebsd.org, which will reach me no matter where I happen to be logged in). N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 12:43:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18699 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:43:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18666 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11054; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:43:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980614204319.17599@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:43:19 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: YES! MORE SUCCESS! CHEER FOR ME!!! :-) References: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980614181014.41433@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980614093142.007e5100@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614093142.007e5100@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 09:31:42AM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 09:31:42AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Next project - anyone know of any good web server daemons out there? > (didn't see anything built into FreeBSD). Might be fun to set up my own > private 2-machine intranet with WWW access!!! Apache. It's in the ports system as /usr/ports/www/apache (although you can learn a lot by installing it from scratch) -- lots of useful information at . N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 13:26:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23783 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (root@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23778 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@krivis.com) Received: from carbon (as4-12.apk.net [207.54.160.163]) by junior.apk.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA23819; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806142026.QAA23819@junior.apk.net> From: "Stuart Krivis" To: "Nik Clayton" , "Stuart Krivis" Cc: "freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org" , "Tim Parkinson" Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:22:28 -0400 Reply-To: "Stuart Krivis" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows NT (4.0.1381;3) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: What do people on the list use FreeBSD for? Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:28:38 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: >> Even then, PC unix can be very cost-effective for certain things. And >> FreeBSD or Linux are much less expensive than Solaris x86. :-) > >Yeah. Some of our internal firewall and masquerading kit runs FreeBSD and >Linux. But our webservers, nameservers and so on are all Solaris for the >suit's peace of mind. My company has several webservers running FreeBSD. We've seen no real reason to replace or even update them because they just keep working. I think one runs 2.1.something and has been up for 289 days with almost 200 web sites on it. (The only reason the uptime is so short is that our building lost power for a day. :-) FreeBSD is definitely right up there with the commercial unices in terms of usefulness. > >> I tried this out on my Mac. It was kind of cool to do, but a standard >> answering machine is a better solution. :-) > >Sorry, I stopped paying attention to that sentence after the "kind of cool" >phrase. Besides, you can't do telephone trees with a standard answerphone, >nor can it mail you your messages as attachments, or play different greeting >based on the CLID. . . None of which I need to do at home. That's why my comment about it being cool to try, but not much more... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.0 (C) 1997 Pretty Good Privacy, Inc iQA/AwUBNYQxBHHCG1Y55htMEQJX8ACgvmlZrk5r1tPlKyn/3mZ7mnNtE5QAn3Gd gTuL1ZH401u+597WrB5waHZX =hIVI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 14:17:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01236 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01225 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:16:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from pentium (dialup409.serv.net [207.207.70.10]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24536; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614141638.007eb320@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:16:38 -0700 To: Nik Clayton , FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! In-Reply-To: <19980614120205.14122@nothing-going-on.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As I've discovered today, it's not an easy task to run a named server, unless I'm going completely in the wrong direction with my hacking around... I can now ftp from Win95 to the IP address I gave the BSD box without problems, but can't give it a name (like bsd-box.local.net) and FTP to that. Apparently the BSD setup HAS to be registered with the InterNIC and connect to a name server somewhere on the Internet in order to run named. If not, someone direct me to some resources as to how to do it. I'm hopelessly confused with how to use BIND - is there another way to run named aside from BIND for people on an intranet and not connected to the general Internet at all? If anyone knows, Email me directly, please. At 12:02 PM 6/14/98 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: >Yep. Depends on the problem you're seeing though. > >First, what happens if you ftp to the FreeBSD machine using the CLI Win95 >FTP client? > >In Windows start a DOS box, and then type > > C:\> ftp name.of.freebsd.box > >That should immediately connect to the FreeBSD box and prompt for a username >and password. After that it should let you in and you can FTP as normal. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 14:53:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07597 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07428 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:53:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from pentium (dialup633.serv.net [207.207.65.33]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA26192 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614145301.007ed5c0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:53:01 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <199806141840.OAA09233@paul.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh my lord... save me from vi... ;-) Today, I was unfortunate enough to encounter it for the first time when trying to change my shell from sh back to csh (don't ask). That has to be the editor from hell (forgive me if I'm insulting any old-school *nix'ers here, but this IS a forum for newbies). I thought I was in hell when I was in that editor (obviously one of the original Unix editors back when mainframes and dumb terminals were all the rage). I hope I don't commit too many sins in my life and when I die be damned to an eternity of typing full-length articles using vi . The damn thing even had the nerve to send me mail stating that I used it incorrectly afterward. An editor that Emails you and tells you about your mistakes and how to recover from them? Only in Unix... ;-) I truly am glad I don't *only* use FreeBSD (grin). Sometimes the ease of use of Win95/NT can be such sweet relief to us *nix newbies... -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 14:59:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08239 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pm04sm.pmm.mci.net (pm04sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08229 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:59:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from XDrAcOX@mci2000.COM) Received: from mci2000.COM ([166.55.225.124]) by PM04SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27036) with ESMTP id <0EUK00L7HAFKW9@PM04SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:59:45 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:04:50 -0400 From: DrAcO Subject: Configuring Mouse in X-Windows To: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Reply-to: XDrAcOX@mci2000.COM Message-id: <35844902.8CA1E65D@mci2000.COM> Organization: XDrAcOX@mci2000.com MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It is me again, I am having trouble configuring my mouse in X-Windows. I installed the fvwm95 windows manager on my laptop. The mouse is one of the little ones in the middle of the keyboard that looks like an eraser. It doesn't work at all. Could anyone assist me through this problem? Thanks, John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 15:04:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09247 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:04:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aviator.jukeware.com (kel059.silk.net [204.244.76.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09189 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gjukema@silk.net) Received: from localhost (gjukema@localhost) by aviator.jukeware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10046 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:03:08 GMT (envelope-from gjukema@silk.net) X-Authentication-Warning: aviator.jukeware.com: gjukema owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:03:08 +0000 (GMT) From: geoff jukema X-Sender: gjukema@aviator To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: previous message (X & kde) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have to appologize for my last message (from gjukema@aviator) - first time sending a message since the new install. Geoff. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 15:10:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09936 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:10:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09907 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06529; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:10:13 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980615081009.52376@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:10:09 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: Nik Clayton , FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! References: <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980614120205.14122@nothing-going-on.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614141638.007eb320@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614141638.007eb320@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:16:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:16:38PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > As I've discovered today, it's not an easy task to run a named server, > unless I'm going completely in the wrong direction with my hacking > around... I can now ftp from Win95 to the IP address I gave the BSD box > without problems, but can't give it a name (like bsd-box.local.net) and FTP > to that. Apparently the BSD setup HAS to be registered with the InterNIC > and connect to a name server somewhere on the Internet in order to run > named. If not, someone direct me to some resources as to how to do it. > I'm hopelessly confused with how to use BIND - is there another way to run > named aside from BIND for people on an intranet and not connected to the > general Internet at all? If anyone knows, Email me directly, please. Well I decided to answer here because this is mostly about windoze so it would not be well placed in freebsd-questions. I had a FreeBSD machine and two NT machines (NT4 workstation, and NT3.50 on an alpha) networked for a while without using DNS but using hosts files. In FreeBSD it's /etc/hosts and in win there's a file called either host or hosts in the main directory (pathname is different on different flavours). In each case there should be a file there already that shows you what format to use to enter a line for each machine with notepad or similar. After simply listing my machines in these and rebooting I could use their short machine names to connect. I guess this works the same for win95. Can anyone confirm? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 15:27:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12409 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:27:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12383 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from pentium (dialup641.serv.net [207.207.65.41]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA27814; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614152413.007ea100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:24:13 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! Cc: Nik Clayton , FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980615081009.52376@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614141638.007eb320@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980614120205.14122@nothing-going-on.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614141638.007eb320@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! I thought I knew Win95 like the back of my hand.. I guess it was more like the back of my thumb instead. It worked... I added the name to "hosts.sam" in c:\windows (and copied the file to a file just called "hosts" for good measure, just in case) and now I can use the name rather than the IP address. You've saved the day, Sue!! Now, how to get that darned MSIE4 to recognize that that one particular IP address doesn't need to be dialed via modem automatically when I try to connect to it (I have TCP/IP bound to both the dialup adapter and my Ethernet card in Win95)... and everything would be PERFECT. I may be expecting too much though... :-) I guess it's no big deal to hit "cancel" when that dialup window pops up... I'll be using the modem more often than I will be connecting to the BSD box anyway. At 08:10 AM 6/15/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:16:38PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> >> As I've discovered today, it's not an easy task to run a named server, >> unless I'm going completely in the wrong direction with my hacking >> around... I can now ftp from Win95 to the IP address I gave the BSD box >> without problems, but can't give it a name (like bsd-box.local.net) and FTP >> to that. Apparently the BSD setup HAS to be registered with the InterNIC >> and connect to a name server somewhere on the Internet in order to run >> named. If not, someone direct me to some resources as to how to do it. >> I'm hopelessly confused with how to use BIND - is there another way to run >> named aside from BIND for people on an intranet and not connected to the >> general Internet at all? If anyone knows, Email me directly, please. > >Well I decided to answer here because this is mostly about windoze so it >would not be well placed in freebsd-questions. > >I had a FreeBSD machine and two NT machines (NT4 workstation, and NT3.50 >on an alpha) networked for a while without using DNS but using hosts >files. In FreeBSD it's /etc/hosts and in win there's a file called either >host or hosts in the main directory (pathname is different on different >flavours). In each case there should be a file there already that shows >you what format to use to enter a line for each machine with notepad or >similar. After simply listing my machines in these and rebooting I could >use their short machine names to connect. > >I guess this works the same for win95. Can anyone confirm? > >-- > >Regards, > -*Sue*- > > > -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 16:17:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24308 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from battleship.genevaonline.com (battleship.genevaonline.com [156.46.205.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24293 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thiel@genevaonline.com) Received: from shiva (pm3-ppp74.genevaonline.com [156.46.117.74]) by battleship.genevaonline.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20335 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:17:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806142317.SAA20335@battleship.genevaonline.com> X-Sender: thiel@mail.genevaonline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:15:46 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Loren Thiel Subject: Re: Configuring Mouse in X-Windows In-Reply-To: <35844902.8CA1E65D@mci2000.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did you get your mouse to work when you first installed FreeBSD... using sysinstall? I have a ps/2 mouse...I had to disable the bus mouse option..and leave 2 conflicts with the ps/2 mouse and syscon or something. Works ok for me. Don't know what kind of interface the "eraser mice" have...most likely NOT serial. You have a Thinkpad? Loren Thiel At 06:04 PM 6/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >It is me again, I am having trouble configuring my mouse in X-Windows. >I installed the fvwm95 windows manager on my laptop. The mouse is one >of the little ones in the middle of the keyboard that looks like an >eraser. It doesn't work at all. Could anyone assist me through this >problem? > Thanks, > John > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 16:27:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25460 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25373; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:26:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup128.serv.net [205.153.153.157]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01005; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614162648.007e5d10@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:26:48 -0700 To: nik@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Setting up a local nameservice. Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980614235021.17830@nothing-going-on.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614142847.007eacc0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980614093142.007e5100@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980614181014.41433@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980614093142.007e5100@mx.serv.net> <19980614204319.17599@nothing-going-on.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614142847.007eacc0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, there is a MUCH easier way, as Sue got me started learning (and I fleshed out myself), and everything is now working to my satisfaction. (1) In BSD, comment out BIND in /etc/host.conf, then in /etc/hosts, add the IP addresses and names of all PC's on the local network. (2) On the win95 end of things, edit the file "hosts.sam" in \windows with essentially the same parameters, and copy it to a file named "hosts" in \windows. At this point everything is up and running, and you're not limited to any special IP addresses. I'm using 1.1.1.1 (desktop.local.net) for my main PC (easy to remember) and 1.1.1.2 (extra.local.net) for my secondary machine. Much easier, and 1.1.1.1 / 1.1.1.2 are not likely to be real Internet addresses, so it eliminates confusion on that end as well. Thanks for the tutorial though, I'll save it for future reference, as it might come in handy sometime. At 11:50 PM 6/14/98 +0100, you wrote: >On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:28:47PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> Is there any way to run named (I.E. so I can use http://extra-pc.local.net >> instead of http://123.123.123.1 (which is the IP address I chose for my >> BSD box) without having to go through the InterNIC and all that? > >Yes. Here's an outline below. If you can flesh this out and want to submit >this as documentation based on your experiences, that would be great. > >The basic premise is as follows: you're going to create a private network >for your own use. This network contains one or more machines. One machine >will be connected to the Internet (is the 'gateway'), all the other machines >connect through the gateway. > >Any IP addresses and/or hostnames that you use on your internal network >*will not be visible* to the wider Internet. This is a very important point. > >You're going to need two sorts of nameservice. Firstly, you need a way for >hosts on your network to look up IP addresses of machines that they connect >to on the wider Internet. Secondly, you need to be able to assign your >internal machines IP addresses, safe in the knowledge that they won't >clash with anyone elses. > >Your network numbers can be in one of three blocks: > > 10.0.0.0 thru 10.255.255.255 > >or > > 172.16.0.0 thru 172.31.255.255 > >or > > 192.168.0.0 thru 192.168.255.255 > >(see the comments in your /etc/hosts file). These addresses *must not* be >propogated on to the Internet. As long as everyone follows this rule it >means that you can use them and know that they won't clash. Someone, >somewhere, has 123.123.123.1, and you're using it. This will eventually >cause problems. > >For simplicities sake (because I can cut-n-paste most of my config) this >example is going to assume that you're using addresses from the 192.168 >set. > >Now to create your local DNS. Since it's local you can have any names you >want, including your own top-level domain. For this example, lets assume >that you want all your machines to be in the .tim top level domain, with >machines like smtp.tim, www.tim, news.tim, and so on. > >You will need to configure a nameserver to be authoritative for this domain, >and then tell all the machines on your network to look up their names from >this nameserver. > >Imagine your network is set up like this (keep in mind that a computer can >have multiple IP addresses) > > IP Host Description > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 192.168.1.1 gw.tim Gateway, connected to the Internet. All > other machines are told that this IP is their > default route. > > 192.168.1.2 ns-1.tim The (first) nameserver. All machines are told > to use this for their nameservice. > > 192.168.1.8 smtp.tim Incoming and outgoing SMTP (mail) > > 192.168.1.9 nntp.tim Incoming and outgoing NNTP (news). Will also be > known as 'news.tim' > > 192.168.1.16 http.tim Internal web server. Will also be known as > www.tim > > 192.168.1.32 win95.tim A Windows 95 machine > >Notice that the IP addresses don't increase lineraly. This is just a little >foible of mine. Important machines (gateway, DNS etc) get from 1-7, text >based communication hosts are in 8-15, other services are on 16-31, and >user's machines start from 32 and go on from there. This is just my >personal preference when assigning numbers to hosts. > >Now, assume that you have one machine (FreeBSD) and it's performing all >the functions from .1 through to .31. In other words it's gateway, mail, >news, and web. > >First, you need to configure /etc/rc.conf.local > >[/etc/rc.conf.local] > # Note how you don't need to edit /etc/rc.conf, you can put your changes > # in /etc/rc.conf.local. This makes seeing what you've changed (and > # upgrading) much easier. > > # My main hostname is 'gw.tim' > hostname="gw.tim" > > # I have two configurable network interfaces, the loopback (lo0) and the > # network card (ed0 in this example, although yours may be different) > network_interfaces="lo0 ed0" > > # Configure the loopback if > ifconfig_lo0="inet 127.0.0.1" > > # Assign the primary IP address to the network card > ifconfig_ed0="inet 192.168.1.1" > > # This machine has multiple IP addresses assigned to it. We put these > # addresses on the ed0 interface. > ifconfig_ed0_alias0="inet 192.168.1.2 netmask 0xffffffff" > ifconfig_ed0_alias1="inet 192.168.1.8 netmask 0xffffffff" > ifconfig_ed0_alias2="inet 192.168.1.9 netmask 0xffffffff" > ifconfig_ed0_alias3="inet 192.168.1.16 netmask 0xffffffff" > > # Start named at boot > named_enable="YES" > named_flags="-b /etc/namedb/named.boot" > > # We'll be gatewaying packets > gateway_enable="YES" > >That will (at boot time) assign those IP addresses to your network interface, >ready to be queried. > >Now you need to configure up your nameserver. This is not the simplest task >in the world, but can be simplified with the O'Reilly book "DNS And Bind" >by (I think) Cricket and Liu. > >This is the named boot file, which configures named and specifies several >other files. > >[/etc/namedb/named.boot] > directory /etc/namedb > > ; I'm primary for the .tim domain and the 192.168.1 reverse domain, so > ; say so, and specify the files that contain that info > primary tim tim.db > primary 1.168.192.IN-ADDR.ARPA tim.rev > > ; I'm also primary for the 127.* addresses, since that's the loopback > primary 0.0.127.IN-ADDR.ARPA localhost.rev > > ; My ISP must run some nameservers. I put their IP addresses in here, > ; so that if I don't know the answer to a query I can ask them. > forwarders a.b.c.d > > ; And that's all I want to do > options forward-only > >We can then configure the other files mentioned there. I haven't got the >time (or space) to properly explain the format of this file -- the O'Reilly >book I mentioned covers it all in great detail. > >This covers the mappings between names to IP addresses (referred to as the >'forward' mapping. > >[/etc/namedb/tim.db] > @ IN SOA gw.tim. root.gw.tim. ( > 19980614 ; Serial number, update this each time this file changes > 10800 ; Refresh time (seconds) > 3600 ; Retry time (seconds) > 604800 ; Expire time (seconds) > 86400 ) ; Minimum time (seconds) > > tim. IN NS ns-1.tim. > > ; That's the (fairly standard) preamble out of the way. Now we start > ; defining the name -> IP mapping > > localhost IN A 127.0.0.1 > IN MX 5 smtp.tim. > > gw IN A 192.168.1.1 > IN MX 5 smtp.tim. > > ns-1 IN A 192.168.1.2 > IN MX 5 smtp.tim. > > smtp IN A 192.168.1.8 > IN MX 5 smtp.tim. > > ; nntp and http have aliases to the slighly more common names 'news' and > ; 'www' > nntp IN A 192.168.1.9 > IN MX 5 smtp.tim. > IN CNAME news.tim. > > http IN A 192.168.1.16 > IN MX 5 smtp.tim. > IN CNAME www.tim. > > > ; Now the user machines > win95 IN A 192.168.1.32 > IN MX 5 smtp.tim. > >This covers IP addresses to names (the reverse mapping). In this file, IP >addresses are written in reverse order. > >[/etc/namedb/tim.rev] > @ IN SOA gw.tim. root.gw.tim. ( > 19980614 ; Serial number, update this each time this file changes > 10800 ; Refresh time (seconds) > 3600 ; Retry time (seconds) > 604800 ; Expire time (seconds) > 86400 ) ; Minimum time (seconds) > > 1.168.192.in-addr.arpa. IN NS ns-1.tim. > > 1 IN PTR gw.tim. > 2 IN PTR ns-1.tim. > 8 IN PTR smtp.tim. > 9 IN PTR nntp.tim. > 16 IN PTR http.tim. > > 32 IN PTR win95.tim. > >Finally, you also need a reverse file for the 127.* range > >[/etc/namedb/localhost.rev] > @ IN SOA gw.tim. root.gw.tim. ( > 19980614 ; Serial number, update this each time this file changes > 10800 ; Refresh time (seconds) > 3600 ; Retry time (seconds) > 604800 ; Expire time (seconds) > 86400 ) ; Minimum time (seconds) > > IN NS ns-1.tim. > > 1 IN PTR localhost.tim. > >That's that part of the config done. Note that the trailing '.' on the >hostnames is significant. > >You can now probably remove a lot of the IP addresses you have in /etc/hosts >and put 'bind' back in /etc/host.conf. You also need to tell your system >where to do its name lookups in /etc/resolv.conf. > >[/etc/resolv.conf] > nameserver ns-1.tim > domain tim > >while /etc/hosts will probably need to look like > >[/etc/hosts] > 127.0.0.1 localhost.tim localhost > 192.168.1.1 gw.tim gw > 192.168.1.2 ns-1.tim ns-1 > >In essence, /etc/hosts only needs to contain an IP address for the loopback, >it's own IP address, and the IP address of the name server. > >After a reboot, that should be sufficient for you to run 'nslookup' as root >and see something like > > # nslookup > Default Server: gw.tim > Address: 0.0.0.0 > > > smtp > Server: gw.tim > Address: 0.0.0.0 > > Name: smtp.tim > Address: 192.168.1.8 > > ^D > >which is a pretty good sign that things are working. > >You should then be able to configure your Windows 95 machine that > > Its name is "win95.tim" (obviously you'll want to change this in here > and in the other config files I've just listed to something more useful). > > Its IP address is 192.168.1.32. > > Its netmask is 255.255.255.0 > > Its default gateway is 192.168.1.1 > > Its default nameserver is 192.168.1.2 > >and things should just work. > >If you've got other software configured that may need reconfiguring with the >new IP addresses. > >Note also that there's no need for the machine's primary interface to be >called .1 (and for you to call your machine gw). You could instead >call it something like freebsd.tim with .33 as it's IP address. In this >case, you would put the .33 in the ifconfig_ed0 line in /etc/rc.conf.local >and add an ifconfig_ed0_alias line to add .1 as an alias on ed0 as well. > >Make sense? > >I've set replies to this message to go to nik@freebsd.org, where they'll >be redirected to me if you reply tomorrow. > >N -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 16:38:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26972 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:38:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26942 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:37:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup128.serv.net [205.153.153.157]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01578; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614163732.007f2100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:37:32 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: The success story continues... Cc: Nik Clayton , FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614152413.007ea100@mx.serv.net> References: <19980615081009.52376@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980614141638.007eb320@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980614120205.14122@nothing-going-on.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614141638.007eb320@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I even figured out how to cure my MSIE4 blues - just set "connect to the Internet using a local area network" in the connections tab under View/Internet Options in MSIE4. It eliminates auto-dialing completely, but I was never really that thrilled with it in the first place. I have a shortcut (ctrl-alt-D) set to instantly dial my provider when needed, and this way I have more control (when connected to the Net it uses the Net, as I have my dialup adapter /TCP-IP binding set to "default protocol" in Control Panel/Network). Works like a charm. I can even access my BSD machine while connected to the Net via modem on my Win95 machine (I guess Win95 is more intelligent than people give it credit sometimes). That hosts.sam/hosts file in the \windows directory was a stroke of genius... I'm sure I can guess where the Win95 programmers got THAT idea from :-) At 03:24 PM 6/14/98 -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > >THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! I thought I knew Win95 like the back of my hand.. I >guess it was more like the back of my thumb instead. > >It worked... I added the name to "hosts.sam" in c:\windows (and copied the >file to a file just called "hosts" for good measure, just in case) and now >I can use the name rather than the IP address. > >You've saved the day, Sue!! Now, how to get that darned MSIE4 to recognize >that that one particular IP address doesn't need to be dialed via modem >automatically when I try to connect to it (I have TCP/IP bound to both the >dialup adapter and my Ethernet card in Win95)... and everything would be >PERFECT. I may be expecting too much though... :-) I guess it's no big >deal to hit "cancel" when that dialup window pops up... I'll be using the >modem more often than I will be connecting to the BSD box anyway. > >At 08:10 AM 6/15/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >>On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:16:38PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >>> >>> As I've discovered today, it's not an easy task to run a named server, >>> unless I'm going completely in the wrong direction with my hacking >>> around... I can now ftp from Win95 to the IP address I gave the BSD box >>> without problems, but can't give it a name (like bsd-box.local.net) and FTP >>> to that. Apparently the BSD setup HAS to be registered with the InterNIC >>> and connect to a name server somewhere on the Internet in order to run >>> named. If not, someone direct me to some resources as to how to do it. >>> I'm hopelessly confused with how to use BIND - is there another way to run >>> named aside from BIND for people on an intranet and not connected to the >>> general Internet at all? If anyone knows, Email me directly, please. >> >>Well I decided to answer here because this is mostly about windoze so it >>would not be well placed in freebsd-questions. >> >>I had a FreeBSD machine and two NT machines (NT4 workstation, and NT3.50 >>on an alpha) networked for a while without using DNS but using hosts >>files. In FreeBSD it's /etc/hosts and in win there's a file called either >>host or hosts in the main directory (pathname is different on different >>flavours). In each case there should be a file there already that shows >>you what format to use to enter a line for each machine with notepad or >>similar. After simply listing my machines in these and rebooting I could >>use their short machine names to connect. >> >>I guess this works the same for win95. Can anyone confirm? >> >>-- >> >>Regards, >> -*Sue*- -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 16:40:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27409 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27401 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup128.serv.net [205.153.153.157]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01759; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614164042.007ece10@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:40:42 -0700 To: Ben Manes From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980614145301.007ed5c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would have, but I used chsh to change my shell back from sh to csh, and it defaulted to Nvi as the editor (no choice in the matter) and I had no idea it would use vi. Actually, my preferred BSD editor so far has been ee, but I'll give pico a try. At 04:16 PM 6/14/98 -0700, you wrote: > >use pico, its like pcdos's edit -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 17:52:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08765 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08687 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup323.serv.net [207.207.70.216]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA05588 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614175142.007b4420@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:51:42 -0700 To: From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: The 7 circles of Unix knowledge (humor) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The following is in the public domain and may be reprinted in its entirety/added to/embellished, etc, if anyone finds it humorous enough to do so. The way I look at it, there are seven "circles" of Unix knowledge: * Newbiehood. Equivalent to a white belt in Karate. Haven't entered the 7 circles yet. * You enter the first circle by installing and configuring Unix correctly, and getting Xfree86 up and running correctly with no problems, and have tried various X clients (including window managers) and servers. Some knowledge of Unix commands and structure is also necessary to graduate to this level. * To graduate to the 2nd circle, you need to master Unix networking in its entirety. This involves many possible forms of networking... Internet, local area networks, various kinds of WANs, etc. This is the level many sysadmins of various ISP's are at, or are just entering the third circle. * The third circle may be entered by mastering ALL the various utilities included with Unix and furthering your knowledge in every area. You can usually recognize someone within the 3th circle by their writing... every 2nd word or so consists of a 2 or 3-letter name of a Unix program ("I've tried vm and md, but pcd and ox aren't quite as useful as fvm is. You should try mss or rw sometime though, it's even better than srmt. Even ptt isn't as useful."). A person with no Unix knowledge cannot understand 75% of what a 3rd circle member says or writes. * The fourth circle takes the longest to reach, and is entered when you no longer need to type 'man command' for any Unix command in existence, and have memorized most or all existing Unix documentation, can program fluently in Perl, C, write complex CGI scripts without thinking about it, etc. This is generally the point where the word "Guru" applies. The ability to compress an average 100 line (80 characters per line including white space allowed) C program down to 2 lines without blinking is a requirement for entering the fourth circle, and this ability is tested by higher-ups before admission is granted. * The knowledge required to enter the 5th and 6th circles is secret, and unknown to those below those levels. Reaching the 6th circle generally takes 20 years or more of 40+ hours/week Unix administration and programming, and even longer for many. A 6th circle initiate (just beginning at that level) could write their own entirely unique version of Unix from scratch in C by themselves in a matter of one or two weeks, device drivers and all. Needless to say, there are probably only 2 or 3 members of the 6th circle currently alive on Earth, and they keep their knowledge hidden from everyone but each other. (6) Mastering the 7th circle at last, you leave your body and pass into universal guru-dom, merge into the digital domain, and vanish from the Earthly plane entirely. Only one or two souls have made it to the 7th circle in the history of Unix. Who knows who they were, or where they went. They exist now in binary digital form, traveling rapidly from PC to PC as minute pulses through the ether of the cosmos. Occasionally their presence is responsible for the crash of a Windows machine, as they pass through the system bus and RAM in their endless exploration of all things digital. Unix, of course, would stay up and running in their presence, and those who claim to have had it up for a year or more solid without a crash may have been graced with the presence of a 7th circle initiate. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 18:07:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11130 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:07:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11099 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup323.serv.net [207.207.70.216]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA06580 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614180702.007f2ec0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:07:02 -0700 To: From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: 7 circles of Unix knowledge - addendum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Some may wonder... is there anything beyond the 7th circle? Nobody really knows, but there is a theory: That some time in the far future, someone will pass beyond the 7th circle, travel back in time to when Unix was invented, and give the idea of creating unix to its original programmers, thus being both the creator and the ultimate master of Unix at the same time and creating an endless loop of Unix, assuring its continued existence for all time. (jeesh... I get nutty after 36 hrs without sleep) ;-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 18:13:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12211 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12196; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:13:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup323.serv.net [207.207.70.216]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA06877; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614181331.007febb0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:13:31 -0700 To: nik@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Setting up a local nameservice. Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Someone, >somewhere, has 123.123.123.1, and you're using it. This will eventually >cause problems. Actually, it won't, because my local network is entirely isolated from the Internet (I specifically set it up that way), so I'm free to use any numbers I choose. The TCP/IP protocols that use those numbers are bound only to my ethernet cards and will never get anywhere near the Internet. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 18:39:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14527 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:39:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.honk.org (mpoulin@honk.org [206.191.48.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14518 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpoulin@honk.org) Received: from localhost (mpoulin@localhost) by mail.honk.org (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA05773 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:40:08 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:40:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Marty Poulin To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Success with X Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well. I feel a little silly having made such a big deal about installing X. It was excruciatingly simple. But if it will help any other newbies out there, this is what I did: 1. Downloaded the following files from ftp.xfree86.org/current/binaries/FreeBSD-2.2.x : - preinst.sh - postinst.sh - X332bin.tgz - X332cfg.tgz - X332doc.tgz - X332man.tgz - X332fnts.tgz - X332lib.tgz - X332set.tgz - X332vg16.tgz and the specific server for my video card: X332Mach64.tgz 2. Created the following directory: /usr/X11R6 3. Added /usr/X11R6/bin to the PATH variable in my /.profile 4. Unpacked the tarballs in the /usr/X11R6 directory with the following command: gzip -dc X332xxx.tgz | tar xfB - 5. Ran XF86Setup 6. Filled in the blanks regarding my monitor, then ran xvidtune to fine-tune the settings. 7. started an X session (startx). Lo and behold, it worked! Now I am trying to install other window mangers (fvwm and fvwm95) to see what I can do with them. I didn't have any success last night, but it was late and my mind was starting to wander... Anyway, like I said, it was a very simple process. Hopefully in the future the FAQ or Handbook can include more concise instructions to help people get started. As for the window mangers, I will see what freebsd-questions has to say about my specific error, and keep you posted. ===================== Quote(c) 1997 Martin Poulin ===================== Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton, Letter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 19:16:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18805 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:16:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme62.sunshine.net [209.17.178.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18783 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00646; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:15:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:15:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: higginsj@iname.com cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Windows and MS prejudice? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 June 1998, James wrote: => On Sun, 14 June 1998, Stuart Krivis wrote: => > => > I remember a person with a similar name that used to winvocate => > mercilessly. this person used to troll the OS/2 groups on Fidonet and => > usenet, trying to convince people of the merits of MSware. => > => > Nah, must have been another Gerchmez.... => > => => rantBegin(); => What I really don't understand is why people are so adamant about it. My => opinion is that you should use the OS that best suits your needs. Precisely. => Windows has advantages as do all Unices and UNIX derived OS's as does OS/2 => and any other OS you care to talk about.... with the exception of maybe => MacOS which we all trash.. :) I don't how you can trash MacOS and in the same sentence as praising the virtues of Windows. I work with Macs and although I think they are "at present" a lot more work under their native environ. to work within a server situation, I see there usability and interface no more or less difficult than windows, dos, or *NIX. You learn the most in a *NIX environ.. I have more of a problem with those that cannot see there way beyond the CRT to a appreciate the strengths of another platform for certain apps or functions. It's like a friend once told me: "The only thing that separates humans from animals is when something does not work, humans try harder." => UNIX in general is very stable and reliable and lacks the overhead that => many 100% GUI OS's place on their users. Modern unices are 32 or 64 => bit environments and bypass many of the problems encountered in say DOS or => Windows 3.X. => Windows * is easy to use and quick to setup and it is well suited to the => majority of the people out there. A lot, users don't care that they can => change the behavior of their application or that this whizzbang is better => than that doflop. Also, there are the people, and more of them than some => are willing to admit, that don't care how fast or stable the thing is as => long as it works and is easy to use. A crack in your theory me thinks :) Try a few months in Internet Tech Support, of course this is an assumption on my part that you have not. => I just personally wish the world would get over this. The whole argument => is pointless. People are religious about their choice of OS and one thread => on why one sucks and the other sparkles is not going to change their mind. I agree it is pointless, but it is soooo much fun sometimes :) => rantEnd(); => James => Disclaimer: No machines, OS's, penguins, daemons, or windows were harmed, => broken, smashed, mistreated, abused, razzed, or taunted in the making of => this rant. Of course, a sense of humour I can appreciate. Regards, Discover Rock Solid /@\ Kevin G. Eliuk Discover FreeBSD /~~~\ http://www.FreeBSD.Org /~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~\ --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==----==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 19:29:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20485 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from battleship.genevaonline.com (battleship.genevaonline.com [156.46.205.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20474 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:29:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thiel@genevaonline.com) Received: from shiva (pm3-ppp74.genevaonline.com [156.46.117.74]) by battleship.genevaonline.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA24750 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:29:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: X-Sender: thiel@mail.genevaonline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:41:11 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Loren Thiel Subject: using NATD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I've got a problem with my setup that I explained in a mail to freebsd-questions: >Need help with ppp! >I switched to kernel ppp (previously tried user ppp) >When I give the command: ppp-up >the computer sits for about 2 min...doing nothing....then it dials and gives: > >connect: ppp0 <--> /dev/cuaa1 >local IP addr 156.46.117.39 >Remote IP addr 156.46.205.5 >add default route: File exists >add default route: File exists >add default route: File exists > > >ifconfig -a gives the following: > >ex0: flags=843 mtu 1500 > inet 10.0.0.1 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 10.0.0.255 > ether 00:a0:c9:0a:ca:d0 >tun0: flags=8010 mtu 1500 >sl0: flags=c010 mtu 552 >ppp0: flags=8051 mtu 1500 > inet 156.46.117.39 --> 156.46.205.5 netmask 0xffffff00 >lo0: flags=8049 mtu 16384 > inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000 > >ex0 is my Etherexpress Pro/10 which is connected to 1 other computer. >Its ip is 10.0.0.1, and seems to be working ok. However I didn't try to ping the other computer its attached to yet. > >... > >But when I try: >ping home.netscape.com >or >ping www.yahoo.com >I get both times: >cannot resolve home.netscape.com (or www.yahoo.com) unknown host. > I got this responce: >Unless you are using NATD your packets are probably using >the 10 address. Your DNS queries, pings, etc have a source >IP of 10.0.0.1 which no one can reply to. You may be able >to run tcpdump on the ppp0 interface to verify. Read the >natd manual page and set up ipfw/natd. I temporarily I disabled ex0...dialed up....and everything seems to work fine. The message: "add default route: File exists" also disappeared. I attempted to read the man page on NATD...however it seems quite complicated.. Is there anyone out there who's set NATD up before? Or are there any tutorials out there? Is it really a hard process that maybe I shouldn't get into, being new to freebsd? I'd like to use my FreeBSD machine to be a gateway for one other computer to the internet. However, its not that incredibly important...because I have to use a 14.4 modem with FreeBSD, because my new modem is a WinModem 33.6. (WINmodem...won't work with freebsd...didn't think of that when I bought it) I do have WinGate...which I use with Windows 95 now to allow the other computer to get to the internet, but I wanted to try something new...and more stable than a forever crashing windows. That's my story. :) Thanks for any help, Loren Thiel thiel@genevaonline.com ICQ: 1117658 Give your computer something to do when it would normally just be sitting idle.... Join the worlds fastest computer: www.distributed.net/rc5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 19:32:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20808 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme69.sunshine.net [209.17.178.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20747 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00666; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:31:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614145301.007ed5c0@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: => => Oh my lord... save me from vi... ;-) => => Today, I was unfortunate enough to encounter it for the first time when => trying to change my shell from sh back to csh (don't ask). That has to be => the editor from hell (forgive me if I'm insulting any old-school *nix'ers => here, but this IS a forum for newbies). I thought I was in hell when I was => in that editor (obviously one of the original Unix editors back when => mainframes and dumb terminals were all the rage). I hope I don't commit => too many sins in my life and when I die be damned to an eternity of typing => full-length articles using vi . The damn thing even had the nerve => to send me mail stating that I used it incorrectly afterward. An editor => that Emails you and tells you about your mistakes and how to recover from => them? Only in Unix... ;-) If you ar interested there is a port of a small tutorial that comes packed with Nvi, and if I am not mistaken, it is now seperate in a port. After doing it and trying some trials on global substitutions and the like I think that you'll appreciate the power and simplicity that is not available in all editors. Actually, the learning of vi(and ed) has its benefits. No different than having knowledge of `edlin' in dos. You'll never be denied an editor under most circumstances when wanting to work in the field on anothers machine. => I truly am glad I don't *only* use FreeBSD (grin). Sometimes the ease of => use of Win95/NT can be such sweet relief to us *nix newbies... Regards, Discover Rock Solid /@\ Kevin G. Eliuk Discover FreeBSD /~~~\ http://www.FreeBSD.Org /~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~\ --==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==----==**==-- --==**==-- --==**==-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 20:22:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27564 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:22:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27537 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:22:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@pm03-06.aei.ca [206.123.6.156]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15311; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35849338.876944E0@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:21:28 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" CC: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: > > On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > => > => Oh my lord... save me from vi... ;-) > => > => Today, I was unfortunate enough to encounter it for the first time when > => trying to change my shell from sh back to csh (don't ask). That has to be > => the editor from hell (forgive me if I'm insulting any old-school *nix'ers > => here, but this IS a forum for newbies). I thought I was in hell when I was > => in that editor (obviously one of the original Unix editors back when > => mainframes and dumb terminals were all the rage). I hope I don't commit > => too many sins in my life and when I die be damned to an eternity of typing > => full-length articles using vi . The damn thing even had the nerve > => to send me mail stating that I used it incorrectly afterward. An editor > => that Emails you and tells you about your mistakes and how to recover from > => them? Only in Unix... ;-) > > If you ar interested there is a port of a small tutorial that comes > packed with Nvi, and if I am not mistaken, it is now seperate in a port. > After doing it and trying some trials on global substitutions and the > like I think that you'll appreciate the power and simplicity that is not > available in all editors. > > Actually, the learning of vi(and ed) has its benefits. > > No different than having knowledge of `edlin' in dos. You'll never be > denied an editor under most circumstances when wanting to work in the > field on anothers machine. > > => I truly am glad I don't *only* use FreeBSD (grin). Sometimes the ease of > => use of Win95/NT can be such sweet relief to us *nix newbies... In fact, I tryed today chsh and it was vi who was the editor. But after some reading, I've understanding basic tools after some !"/$/!"$/"!"!!/"/"!$/$"±@£¢@±£@±±£±@£± times...: "Esc"=command prompt (the MOST important thing to understand) All command below work after pressing "Esc" button "a"=add after the current caracter "i"=insertion before the current caracter "x"=delete the current caracter "X"=delete the caracter after the cursor ":wq"=save and exit ":q!"=exit ":w"=save You have to do "Esc" after you finished writing and then you can start moving around. Malartre -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 20:33:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28843 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28835 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup506.serv.net [207.207.70.71]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14661; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614203302.007d0800@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:33:02 -0700 To: Malartre , "Kevin G. Eliuk" From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35849338.876944E0@aei.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:21 PM 6/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >In fact, I tryed today chsh and it was vi who was the editor. Hmm, strange, when I switched from csh to sh it was ee that was the editor, but vi was the editor when switching back. I think it has something to do with the default editor set in your home directory. You must have already been set to vi as the default when you switched. I did finally get the thing about command mode and edit mode. The thing that bugged me was there was no easy way to escape it, even ctrl-alt-del was trapped and I think I had to shut off my computer to get out of it at first. Then I read the man pages enough to change the one character I needed (added "C" before "SH" to change it back to "CSH" and got into command mode, saved and exited. That did the trick. What kind of an editor is it when you have to shut down your computer, reboot several times, read man pages three times to alter one character? Like I said, I think it would be a fit punishment for someone who committed a serious crime to have to write a 40 page essay using vi. Do that instead of sending to jail, and he won't ever commit a crime again :-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 20:49:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01175 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01166 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@pm03-06.aei.ca [206.123.6.156]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17877; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35849987.1DFDC6DE@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:48:23 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: "Kevin G. Eliuk" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <3.0.5.32.19980614203302.007d0800@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > At 11:21 PM 6/14/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >In fact, I tryed today chsh and it was vi who was the editor. > > Hmm, strange, when I switched from csh to sh it was ee that was the editor, > but vi was the editor when switching back. I think it has something to do > with the default editor set in your home directory. You must have already > been set to vi as the default when you switched. > > I did finally get the thing about command mode and edit mode. The thing > that bugged me was there was no easy way to escape it, even ctrl-alt-del > was trapped and I think I had to shut off my computer to get out of it at > first. Then I read the man pages enough to change the one character I > needed (added "C" before "SH" to change it back to "CSH" and got into > command mode, saved and exited. That did the trick. What kind of an > editor is it when you have to shut down your computer, reboot several > times, read man pages three times to alter one character? Like I said, I > think it would be a fit punishment for someone who committed a serious > crime to have to write a 40 page essay using vi. Do that instead of > sending to jail, and he won't ever commit a crime again :-) > > -- > My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - > lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. Yeah. It was in .profile, .mail, vi was everywhere! I love "ee" but now than I understand vi, its quite easy. Me to, the first time I had to shutdown my computer ;-) I even try to kill the process and it has not worked And ^C dont work to :-) Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 21:28:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07141 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07128 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:28:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hcg@teleport.com) Received: from greymouser.circle-path.org (pdx66-i48-27.teleport.com [204.202.171.233]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA09248 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:30:53 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-Windows and MS prejudice? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hcg@mail.teleport.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > => I just personally wish the world would get over this. The whole argument > => is pointless. People are religious about their choice of OS and one thread > => on why one sucks and the other sparkles is not going to change their mind. > > I agree it is pointless, > > but it is soooo much fun sometimes :) Especially when you can get them to go... Freewhat?! Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 21:29:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07276 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA07227 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:29:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjsan@bga.com) Received: (qmail 31584 invoked from network); 15 Jun 1998 04:29:05 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 1998 04:29:06 -0000 Received: from stevan (dial-46-19.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.147]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA26203 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:28:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199806150428.XAA26203@zoom.bga.com> X-Sender: sjsan@mailserv.bga.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:26:43 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Stevan S." Subject: Re: What do people on the list use FreeBSD for? In-Reply-To: <199806142026.QAA23819@junior.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Everyone, I'm new to this list and to FreeBSD for that matter. I've been following the list for the past 2 week observing and trying to get a sense community this is. Well I glad to say it seems to be a friendly one. As I stated, I'm new on here and forgive me if I don't know all the rules....yet . :) I'm still trying to sort out which list does what and what list I need to post to when I have a question or 2. This might sound funny but I really don't have a use for FreeBSD yet. This is my first time installing an OS that I'm not familiar with, but with independent learning I hope to gain valuable experience of the unix world. To get a peek of what system administors encounter on a day to day basis. My background in computer also plays a role in learning FreeBSD. I very knowledgable about DOS, Win3.*, Win95, and NT and hope to add FreeBSD to my list of OS's. :) Well this is my simply hello and hope to come part of the group. :) Cheers, Stevan S. __ Stevan S. sjsan@bga.com Tell me and I'll Forget... Show me and I'll Remember... Involve me and I'll Understand. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 21:43:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08966 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08957 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:43:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07658; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:42:58 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980615144252.14431@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:42:52 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <199806141840.OAA09233@paul.rutgers.edu> <3.0.5.32.19980614145301.007ed5c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614145301.007ed5c0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:53:01PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:53:01PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Oh my lord... save me from vi... ;-) > > Today, I was unfortunate enough to encounter it for the first time when > trying to change my shell from sh back to csh (don't ask). BTW, did anyone ever tell you it's trendy to use bash as your shell? > That has to be the editor from hell (forgive me if I'm insulting any > old-school *nix'ers here, but this IS a forum for newbies). I thought I > was in hell when I was in that editor (obviously one of the original > Unix editors back when mainframes and dumb terminals were all the > rage). I hope I don't commit too many sins in my life and when I die be > damned to an eternity of typing full-length articles using vi > . The damn thing even had the nerve to send me mail stating > that I used it incorrectly afterward. An editor that Emails you and > tells you about your mistakes and how to recover from them? Only in > Unix... ;-) > > I truly am glad I don't *only* use FreeBSD (grin). Sometimes the ease of > use of Win95/NT can be such sweet relief to us *nix newbies... This is the funniest thing I've read in ages :-) You can tell I don't use vi! A couple of times I was thrown into it with no way to get out, and that was enough of an insult to keep clear of it. For some reason vi has never worked on my 386. I'm not saying that's why I use the 386 most, but it does make me feel kinda safe. (Note: ed still works for real emergencies and I find ed slightly easier to deal with) Before getting heavily into unix I chose an editor to use under DOS that was also available for unix. That made the transition a lot smoother. The one I use, joe, is not everyone's cup of tea but it might suit some. There's a FreeBSD package, but the sources come with a DOS executable and config file that you just put in your DOS path somewhere... check the doccos, which I've put for my own convenience at http://www.welearn.com.au/joe The last link on that page should pick up the source complete with the JOE.EXE for DOS. If you're editing text under two different operating systems a lot, having one text editor for both is handy. Otherwise there's easier editors that talk to mouses under X. So, what's the bad news? Well, since you asked... you *can* get a version of vi that will run under windoze :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 21:51:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09972 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:51:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-32-38.bellatlantic.net [151.197.32.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09937 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:50:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA01066; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:49:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:49:56 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614203302.007d0800@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 11:21 PM 6/14/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >In fact, I tryed today chsh and it was vi who was the editor. > > Hmm, strange, when I switched from csh to sh it was ee that was the editor, > but vi was the editor when switching back. I think it has something to do > with the default editor set in your home directory. You must have already > been set to vi as the default when you switched. Try looking at the EDITOR environment variable. Some things look at that when choosing what to work with. > I did finally get the thing about command mode and edit mode. The thing > that bugged me was there was no easy way to escape it, even ctrl-alt-del > was trapped and I think I had to shut off my computer to get out of it at > first. Then I read the man pages enough to change the one character I > needed (added "C" before "SH" to change it back to "CSH" and got into > command mode, saved and exited. That did the trick. What kind of an > editor is it when you have to shut down your computer, reboot several > times, read man pages three times to alter one character? Like I said, I > think it would be a fit punishment for someone who committed a serious > crime to have to write a 40 page essay using vi. Do that instead of > sending to jail, and he won't ever commit a crime again :-) > Have done several web sites and lots of C/C++ with it. Trust me it is not *THAT* bad. : ) It is all I use and work and I do web development. vi is one of the first things I look for when I have to work on a new platform. I even have it for windows (vim at least). (Along with the rest of the Cygnus tools for Windows NT : ) It just takes some learning. I feel like I am most productive in vi, may hands never leave the keys for anything and I can write like a fiend. Also, I have a long list of abbreviations and keybinds in my .exrc which comes in very handy. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 22:09:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12156 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:09:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-32-38.bellatlantic.net [151.197.32.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12148 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA01131; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 01:08:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 01:08:33 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Sue Blake cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <19980615144252.14431@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:53:01PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > > > Oh my lord... save me from vi... ;-) > > > > Today, I was unfortunate enough to encounter it for the first time when > > trying to change my shell from sh back to csh (don't ask). > > BTW, did anyone ever tell you it's trendy to use bash as your shell? tcsh for me... :) > So, what's the bad news? Well, since you asked... you *can* get a version > of vi that will run under windoze :-) http://www.vim.org actually it is vim (Vi IMproved) but it works just as well. They have it for Win32, 16-bit DOS, and P-Mode DOS James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 14 22:19:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13241 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13203 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:19:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (tulip3.verinet.com [199.45.181.195]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA25118; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:19:07 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06109; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:19:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:19:05 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199806150519.XAA06109@struct.> To: fewtch@serv.net Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614145301.007ed5c0@mx.serv.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Oh my lord... save me from vi... ;-) Nope. > Today, I was unfortunate enough to encounter it for the first time when > trying to change my shell from sh back to csh (don't ask). That has to be > the editor from hell (forgive me if I'm insulting any old-school *nix'ers > here, but this IS a forum for newbies). It is unfortunate that most people encounter vi this way. They get thrown into it while trying to perform some configuration. > I thought I was in hell when I was > in that editor (obviously one of the original Unix editors back when > mainframes and dumb terminals were all the rage). I hope I don't commit > too many sins in my life and when I die be damned to an eternity of typing > full-length articles using vi . My first encounter with vi occurred in 1995, while learning Linux. I now spend >4 hours per day making a living with it (vi that is, not Linux.) There are simply ways to perform all of the necessary editing operations you expect to be able to do including `cut-and-paste', paragraph formating, spell checking, etc. > The damn thing even had the nerve > to send me mail stating that I used it incorrectly afterward. An editor > that Emails you and tells you about your mistakes and how to recover from > them? Only in Unix... ;-) Not understanding vi, you probably exited in a unusual manner. The mail is just vi trying to be helpful. When vi ends in an abnormal manner, the current contents of the buffer are saved. Imagine if you were editing a significant file and a system administrator decided to take the system down while you were away from your workstation. Vi will save the buffer and allow you to recover when you next log in. Believe me, in your time with vi, this will save you many times. > > I truly am glad I don't *only* use FreeBSD (grin). Sometimes the ease of > use of Win95/NT can be such sweet relief to us *nix newbies... There are many alternatives to vi. There are 38 ports listed in ports/editors. However, I would encourage you to approach vi deliberately and learn the basics. Vi is a very powerful editor and it is ubiquitous. Well worth learning by anyone involved with Unix. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 00:00:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21576 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from prime.oaep.go.th ([203.155.25.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21481 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:59:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pirat@prime.oaep.go.th) Received: (from pirat@localhost) by prime.oaep.go.th (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA00539; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:58:32 +0700 (ICT) (envelope-from pirat) Message-ID: <19980615135818.A515@oaep.go.th> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:58:18 +0700 From: pirat sriyotha To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: test:check mutt and sendmail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD prime.oaep.go.th 2.2.6-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org test only. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 01:09:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28730 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 01:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA28690 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 01:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA08238; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:50:53 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:50:49 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: test it up your nose References: <19980615135818.A515@oaep.go.th> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are we having a test mail epidemic or what??! Go join freebsd-test or something. If you really must test by forcing hundreds of people to download your test mail, and have absolutely nothing else to share with your newbie mates, then don't be surprised if hundreds of people write to you privately to explain in words of two megabytes exactly which orifice you can stick your test mail in. Sorry, but if you don't learn this here now, you'll learn it less delicately elsewhere. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 03:23:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13636 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:23:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca [24.64.63.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13597; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from purebeef@shaw.wave.ca) Received: from shaw.wave.ca ([24.64.141.116]) by norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA16214; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:24:02 -0400 Message-ID: <3584F606.FD824547@shaw.wave.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:23:03 -0400 From: Lanny Baron Organization: York Hill Food X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: natd,cablemodem and 2 pc network Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I have 2 pcs in my apt. connected via ethernet. In addition, 1 pc has attached to it a cablemodem. This cablemodem is connected directly to a nic card. There is another nic card in the same pc which goes to the hub. We don't have a static IP. But because cable modem is up so long as the pc is on, the IP doesn't change. Unless of course, the server at the cable company reboots its machines. I have an eggdrop bot which will not go out to the net. I can't find anything wrong in the config file. However, in the config file it does say something about a host name if nat is running. If I try to use pine to send mail, it doesn't get out either. I am at a total loss as to what to look for. Below is what NETSTAT -r reports. I hope you don't mind to help me out with this [beef]$ netstat -r Routing tables Internet: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default h24-64-141-1.mt.wa UGSc 22 712 de0 unused.shaw.ca/24 link#2 UC 0 0 unused.shaw.ca link#1 UC 0 0 unused.shaw.ca 0:80:c8:7e:f3:db UHLW 2 367 de1 830 unused.shaw.ca ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff UHLWb 1 43 de1 24.64.141/24 link#1 UC 0 0 h24-64-141-1.mt.wa 8:0:3e:1a:b8:97 UHLW 23 0 de0 277 h24-64-141-116.mt. 0:e0:29:15:92:94 UHLW 0 27 lo0 localhost localhost UH 0 2 lo0 [beef]$ netstat -rn Routing tables Internet: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default 24.64.141.1 UGSc 22 712 de0 10/24 link#2 UC 0 0 10 link#1 UC 0 0 10.0.0.2 0:80:c8:7e:f3:db UHLW 2 367 de1 789 10.0.0.255 ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff UHLWb 1 43 de1 24.64.141/24 link#1 UC 0 0 24.64.141.1 8:0:3e:1a:b8:97 UHLW 23 0 de0 236 24.64.141.116 0:e0:29:15:92:94 UHLW 0 27 lo0 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UH 0 2 lo0 Your help would be greatly appreciated. Regards.... Lanny Baron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 03:57:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16547 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:57:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from moving-stone.rutgers.edu (muthur@moving-stone.rutgers.edu [128.6.5.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16507 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from muthur@moving-stone.rutgers.edu) Received: from localhost (muthur@localhost) by moving-stone.rutgers.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA04341; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:56:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Muthukumar Ratty Reply-To: Muthukumar Ratty To: Nik Clayton cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing PAO In-Reply-To: <19980614115349.01758@nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Thankyou all for your help. Atlast we were able to configure the wavelan card. Muthu. > On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 07:27:40AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > Wow, FreeBSD on a laptop! I'm envious :-) But first things first... > > > > There's a lot of people at freebsd-questions@freebsd.org who can help you > > if you send your question there. > > Also freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org. > > N > -- > You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. > -- > You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 04:37:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22760 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:37:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.axess.com (root@mail.axess.com [204.19.206.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA22727 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ppawel@axess.com) Received: from axess.com (ppp-43.axess.com [204.19.207.43]) by mail.axess.com (8.8.5/8.7.2) with ESMTP id HAA01176; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:40:31 -0400 Message-ID: <358506A4.5BBA7108@axess.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:33:56 -0400 From: Peter Pawelek Reply-To: ppawel@axess.com Organization: McGill University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Stevan S." CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What do people on the list use FreeBSD for? References: <199806150428.XAA26203@zoom.bga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stevan S. wrote: > > This might sound funny but I really don't have a use for FreeBSD yet. This > is my first time installing an OS that I'm not familiar with, but with > independent learning I hope to gain valuable experience of the unix world. > To get a peek of what system administors encounter on a day to day basis. Well, if you don't know programming, FreeBSD (like Linux) is a perfect development environment. You have all the tools to write great C/C++ programs (or just about any other language you can think of), and the best part is that if you were to buy all of the equivalent tools under Win95 it could cost you thousands of dollars! There, how's that for a suggestion? ;) Peter Pawelek (ppawel@axess.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 09:03:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05552 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05542 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:03:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/05/18 5.10)) id MAA01183; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:03:34 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts003d13.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.73]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id MAA13345; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358546DE.49CE@concentric.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:07:58 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <3.0.5.32.19980614203302.007d0800@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In the beginning was vi, surely created on the first day. Awesome power lurks within and woe to the newbie who ventures into the mysterious screen without the knowledge of how to exit gracefully. This newbie once started a thread on freebsd-questions called "stuck in vi" which made for much good humored fun poking. The first circle cannot be entered unless the Unix newbie has had his/her fair share of "%^&!beep&*^^^%!!beep_(*&^%$beep..... Seriously, Xerox developed an extremely powererful system called Viewpoint with Document Editor. From it emerged Mac and winfeces but neither has advanced to the level of that which they stole even as both "developers" did cat fight over who stole whose "look and feel" that both in turn had stolen from Xerox, who won the first court battle with Mac and lost the second as the judge declared everything to be "public domain." After being introduced to vi, and beginning to understand the power, I am convinced that Document Editor was (and still is) only executing vi commands. ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 10:52:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25030 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:52:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.honk.org (mpoulin@honk.org [206.191.48.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24965 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:52:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpoulin@honk.org) Received: from localhost (mpoulin@localhost) by mail.honk.org (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06708; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:52:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:52:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Marty Poulin To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: 7 circles of Unix knowledge Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heh - I like that. It would be a neat way of identifying one's level of expertise to the mailing lists -- eg. "I'm a 1st circle newbie...": or "As a 6th circle expert I can tell you ..." This could catch on... ======= Quotefile(c) 1997 Martin Poulin (1st circle) =================== The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one.-Albert Einstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 13:19:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18493 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA18428 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from (ragnet.demon.co.uk) [158.152.46.40] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ylfhr-0004cY-00; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:18:20 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0ylT3E-0001ar-00; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:47:32 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614152413.007ea100@mx.serv.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:47:32 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! Cc: Nik Clayton , FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Sue Blake Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Jun-98 Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! I thought I knew Win95 like the back of my hand.. I > guess it was more like the back of my thumb instead. > > It worked... I added the name to "hosts.sam" in c:\windows (and copied the > file to a file just called "hosts" for good measure, just in case) and now > I can use the name rather than the IP address. > > You've saved the day, Sue!! Now, how to get that darned MSIE4 to recognize > that that one particular IP address doesn't need to be dialed via modem > automatically when I try to connect to it (I have TCP/IP bound to both the > dialup adapter and my Ethernet card in Win95)... and everything would be > PERFECT. I may be expecting too much though... :-) I guess it's no big > deal to hit "cancel" when that dialup window pops up... I'll be using the > modem more often than I will be connecting to the BSD box anyway. > Why not move the modem to the FreeBSD box and use that your your router to the external world. Read the manual page for ppp and the ppp tutorial at http://www.freebsd./org/tutorials. Setting this up is very easy. Essentially all you do is run ppp with -demand -alias and it will work. [snipped] --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 15:59:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15964 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15919 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:59:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from [207.216.1.133] (helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org id 0yliDl-0007Wm-00; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:59:27 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01bd98b1$5f87a380$8501d8cf@genisis> From: "Dru" To: Subject: re: vi woes Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:00:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BD988F.D19E4E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BD988F.D19E4E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone! I've been sitting here quietly for about 2 months and I = guess it's time to join the foray. As a newbie to both FreeBSD and Unix = in general, I haven't reached the first level yet as I'm still working = out ppp and Xwindows. However, I've become quite proficient at vi. Have to admit that it took about 2 configuration files and a sore ear = before I could remember to keep pressing escape; once ya get the hang of = it though, you can fly. Now I have to remember not to press escape when = I'm not typing in vi. Have found the vi tutorial in Unix Unleashed (chapter 7) invaluable as = it has many exercises and key strokes to speed you up that aren't even = listed in the manpages. You can read this book for free at: = http://mcp.com/personal/ . While you're there, peruse their ebooklist. = I've never been to a computer store that offered such quality and = quantity, and the price is definitely right. There's enough reading = there to keep me busy the next couple decades. Hope I sent this message in the right email format; Sue will let me know = if I didn't. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BD988F.D19E4E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone! I've been sitting here quietly for = about 2 months=20 and I guess it's time to join the foray.  As a newbie to both = FreeBSD and=20 Unix in general, I haven't reached the first level yet as I'm still = working out=20 ppp and Xwindows. However, I've become quite proficient at = vi.
 
Have to admit that it took about 2 configuration = files and a=20 sore ear before I could remember to keep pressing escape; once ya get = the hang=20 of it though, you can fly.  Now I have to remember not to press = escape when=20 I'm not typing in vi.
 
Have found the vi tutorial in Unix Unleashed = (chapter 7)=20 invaluable as it has many exercises and key strokes to speed you up that = aren't=20 even listed in the manpages.  You can read this book for free = at:  http://mcp.com/personal/  = .  While=20 you're there, peruse their ebooklist.  I've never been to a = computer store=20 that offered such quality and quantity, and the price is definitely = right. =20 There's enough reading there to keep me busy the next couple=20 decades.
 
Hope I sent this message in the right email format; = Sue will=20 let me know if I didn't.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BD988F.D19E4E00-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 17:02:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24082 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:02:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23979 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11110; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:01:46 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980616100141.14380@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:01:41 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Dru Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vi woes References: <001c01bd98b1$5f87a380$8501d8cf@genisis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <001c01bd98b1$5f87a380$8501d8cf@genisis>; from Dru on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:00:08PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 07:00:08PM -0400, Dru wrote: > Hi everyone! I've been sitting here quietly for about 2 months and I guess it > > Have to admit that it took about 2 configuration files and a sore ear before I > > Have found the vi tutorial in Unix Unleashed (chapter 7) invaluable as it has > > Hope I sent this message in the right email format; Sue will let me know if I > Well, since you asked :-) What I quoted above is all of what I see of your message on my screen. The only problem here is that your lines need to wrap at something less that 80 characters. Either you'll have to set your mail up to start a new line at, say, the 73rd character, or you'll have to whack the enter key each time you get there. Email readers aren't meant to (have to) wrap lines. It's supposed to be delivered pre-wrapped. If you're sending email to a co-worker who, like you, has been compelled to use the same software then you can do whatever tricks the software will do. If it's going out over the Internet, you have to do battle with the proprietary software to get it to obey the email standards. It's not your fault! But it becomes your problem, unfortunately. http://www.lemis.com/email.html for more info (new version). Or ask here for more tips. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 17:45:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29434 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:45:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29351 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:44:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from ts7-16.kin.istar.ca ([207.216.1.143] helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org id 0yljsF-0006ap-00; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:45:20 -0400 Message-ID: <002601bd98c0$2c405bc0$8f01d8cf@genisis> From: "Dru" To: Subject: vi woes, try again Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:46:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I changed my email format, so I'll try again. Hi everyone! I've been sitting here quietly for about 2 months and I guess it's time to join the foray. As a newbie to both FreeBSD and Unix in general, I haven't reached the first level yet as I'm still working out ppp and Xwindows. However, I've become quite proficient at vi. Have to admit that it took about 2 configuration files and a sore ear before I could remember to keep pressing escape; once ya get the hang of it though, you can fly. Now I have to remember not to press escape when I'm not typing in vi. Have found the vi tutorial in Unix Unleashed (chapter 7) invaluable as it has many exercises and key strokes to speed you up that aren't even listed in the manpages. You can read this book for free at: http://mcp.com/personal/ . While you're there, peruse their ebooklist. I've never been to a computer store that offered such quality and quantity, and the price is definitely right. There's enough reading there to keep me busy the next couple decades. Hope I sent this message in the right email format; Sue will let me know if I didn't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 17:48:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29996 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:48:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aviator.jukeware.com (kel025.silk.net [204.244.76.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29921 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gjukema@silk.net) Received: from localhost (gjukema@localhost) by aviator.jukeware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13150 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:47:01 GMT (envelope-from gjukema@silk.net) X-Authentication-Warning: aviator.jukeware.com: gjukema owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:47:01 +0000 (GMT) From: geoff jukema X-Sender: gjukema@aviator To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: X & kde : lovin it! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I upgraded my BSD machine recently from the old put-together from useless pieces 386, to a new Pentium 200. I did this because i wanted my faster machine to be FreeBSD with all the goodies; aka X & try out kde. I was really impressed with how little difficulty X really was. I ran the GUI install from the two different options (/stand/sysinstall), and i clicked around a few tabs and before i could say good-bye microsoft, I had a running X windows. I've had much more problems in the recent to not-so recent past with Windows, so i was rather impressed. But on this note, there wasn't much going on, so i read a few paragraphs of various documentation, found out what files to use to configure, installed a couple of apps off CD without a hitch. Then came kde. It looks great and installed just as easy as X. I donwloaded the files (after reading some docs on what was required), and ran add_pkg on it. All i had to do was add a few things to my path, and presto! I guess i don't have much of a point other than to say that if X/kde came in one easy package that modified specified user paths, it would have yet another gain over microsoft. Oh yeah, i was quite impressed that kde found programs like pine, and other misc utilities i had already installed and put them in some menus. Geoff. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 18:40:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05894 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05889 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup611.serv.net [207.207.65.11]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18424; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615182636.007f2450@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:26:36 -0700 To: David Wolfskill From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Making a new kernel Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806151403.HAA20850@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, what *I* meant by "go at it wholeheartedly without restraint" is that it's really impossible to ruin your system or make it difficult/confusing to recover by building a kernel that doesn't work (at least under FreeBSD... other *nixes are not so forgiving). Just typing 'kernel.GENERIC' (no quotes) at the Boot: prompt and hit ENTER, then have another go at it makes it simple and nearly foolproof. In fact, it's safer than using the system upgrade option in /stand/sysinstall - FAR safer. *THAT* utility scares me. I hope the 3.0 release has some improvements to the system upgrade section. It messes up /etc far too often, and I've taken to gzipping my entire /etc directory and copying it elsewhere (including doing directories one by one, by hand, if need be) before using it. At 07:03 AM 6/15/98 -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: >Which is what I meant by "restraint" -- "read up on it first" (vs. "don't >do it at all"). > >I presumed that folks would be learning.... > >david >-- >David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator >dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 18:40:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05922 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05917 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup611.serv.net [207.207.65.11]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18412; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615180529.007f0620@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:05:29 -0700 To: nik@iii.co.uk From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Setting up a local nameservice. Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980615104913.10542@iii.co.uk> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614162648.007e5d10@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980614142847.007eacc0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980614093142.007e5100@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980614181014.41433@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980614093142.007e5100@mx.serv.net> <19980614204319.17599@nothing-going-on.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614142847.007eacc0@mx.serv.net> <19980614235021.17830@nothing-going-on.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614162648.007e5d10@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I *DID* decide to go with 10.0.0.1 and 10.0.0.2 after reading more about it, if for no other reason that I don't want to hear about it every time I mention the IP addresses of my private network to someone . Also, it didn't hurt anything, was easy to change, and I guess it's a good idea to use convention in this area. What if something got screwed up and I *did* start broadcasting those addresses to the Internet (unlikely, but not impossible). At 10:49 AM 6/15/98 +0100, nik@iii.co.uk wrote: >> Much easier, and 1.1.1.1 / 1.1.1.2 are not likely to be real Internet >> addresses, so it eliminates confusion on that end as well. > >From /etc/hosts > ># According to RFC 1918, you can use the following IP networks for ># private nets which will never be connected to the Internet: ># ># 10.0.0.0 - 10.255.255.255 ># 172.16.0.0 - 172.31.255.255 ># 192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255 ># ># In case you want to be able to connect to the Internet, you need ># real official assigned numbers. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not try ># to invent your own network numbers but instead get one from your ># network provider (if any) or from the Internet Registry (ftp to ># rs.internic.net, directory `/templates'). > >N -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 18:40:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05955 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05942 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup611.serv.net [207.207.65.11]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18419; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:18:15 -0700 To: allen campbell From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806150519.XAA06109@struct.> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614145301.007ed5c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Power means little when it is not accompanied by at least a little ease of use/attention to user interface design (Bill Gates figured this out, and he's the richest man on the planet at this point). I could design an automobile consisting of a steel-reinforced cardboard box, a steering mechanism designed to be steered by the small toes on each foot, and steel tires, with a 1000 horsepower engine and 500 gallon gas tank hanging on the side, *VERY* powerful, you think anyone wants to drive it? It bothers me a little that longtime *nix people are so dedicated to the traditions of their OS that they are very slow to make changes. For example, why is there not something as easy to use as the Win95 editor "EDIT" (open a DOS box and type edit, or go to DOS 7.0 and type edit). Fully text-mode graphical, uses standardized keys and mouse commands the rest of the world uses, can edit multiple files, files not limited in size, etc. This is the best text-mode editor I've ever used, and it's provided by Microsoft for use on DOS. Don't tell me *nix has anything its equal in text mode - THERE IS NOTHING AS EASY TO USE AND AS POWERFUL IN TEXT MODE. Come on... I *know* BSD programmers can do better. Write a *CLONE* of the EDIT utility included with Win95 for text-mode use. An *EXACT* clone. Consider this a challenge! I don't think you can do it, MS has better programmers... (trying to piss you off enough to do it!)... At 11:19 PM 6/14/98 -0600, allen campbell wrote: >I would encourage you to approach vi >deliberately and learn the basics. Vi is a very powerful editor >and it is ubiquitous. Well worth learning by anyone involved with >Unix. > >-- > Allen Campbell > allenc@verinet.com > > -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 18:40:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06078 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06054 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup611.serv.net [207.207.65.11]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18435; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615183921.007f8e30@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:39:21 -0700 To: Duncan Barclay From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: I did it!! Success! Yes!! Cc: Nik Clayton , FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Sue Blake In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980614152413.007ea100@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:47 AM 6/15/98 -0000, Duncan Barclay wrote: >Why not move the modem to the FreeBSD box and use that your your >router to the external world. Thought about it, but then I would be forced to always have both machines up and running just to grab my Email (and W95 boots faster than FreeBSD with X). Actually, what I'm gonna do is get a modem for the other machine, I think it's time... enough fooling with proxy servers, etc. for a lousy 28.8 connection to the Net. It ain't worth it when new modems are going so cheap (I would need a $5 phone line splitter as well, of course). Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 18:45:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06846 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:45:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06840 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup611.serv.net [207.207.65.11]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18400; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615175855.007f0250@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:58:55 -0700 To: pirat@prime.oaep.go.th From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980615153541.A1607@oaep.go.th> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614002726.007fa8c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980614002726.007fa8c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Go to http://www.tucows.com and http://www.shareware.com. Some are free, some are shareware, some are commercial demos. But there is so much software available for Windows (both client and server in the Internet category), you couldn't test all of it in a lifetime. That's why my 'main' machine is still a Windows machine. Some in the list don't understand it and think it makes more sense to put BSD on the more powerful machine, and relegate Windows to the back burner. But to me, ultimately software and application availability and the ability to get productive quickly is more important than the configurability/power of the OS that software runs under. Also, driver availability and hardware support are *very* important to me, and on my main machine, most of my hardware would be unsupported. Thirdly, I'm a programmer, and I might want to make money at it sometime. There's very little money in FreeBSD programming (except maybe very narrow, specialized areas) and quite a bit more in Windows programming. So I stay with Windows as my main OS, and BSD as a secondary (but growing in usefulness as I learn it). You gotta admit, dedicating one gig of HD space to it on a 2 gig HD with the rest for Win95 and Win NT to share as software testbed platforms is pretty reasonable (mail tells me I have plenty of free space left everywhere... now I wish I had made /var smaller (I made it 80 megs for some reason and a lot of that is gonna go to waste). Anyway, for anyone who wants to know, here's how I divided up the 1 gig I dedicated to BSD: / - 40 megs /var - 80 megs (Why did I do this??) /usr - 820 megs swap - 60 megs (machine has 32 megs RAM) - sounds reasonable to everyone? Any suggestions on how to better divide the disk up should I ever decide to re-install again (most likely I will be, closer and closer to perfection every time) let me know via Email at fewtch@serv.net and/or the mailing list - thanks. At 03:35 PM 6/15/98 +0700, you wrote: >those stuff that make 95 a file server and telnet server, where do you get >them, are they free ? and so on > >plase reply to newbies as well -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 18:46:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07020 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:46:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07011 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:46:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11394; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:46:23 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980616114620.25050@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:46:20 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Dru Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vi woes, try again References: <002601bd98c0$2c405bc0$8f01d8cf@genisis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <002601bd98c0$2c405bc0$8f01d8cf@genisis>; from Dru on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:46:08PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 08:46:08PM -0400, Dru wrote: > I changed my email format, so I'll try again. > > Hi everyone! I've been sitting here quietly for about 2 months and I > guess it's time to join the foray. What? So soon? :-) > As a newbie to both FreeBSD and Unix in general, I haven't reached the > first level yet as I'm still working out ppp and Xwindows. However, > I've become quite proficient at vi. Hmph. Show-off. It's supposed to be hard, didn't anyone tell you that? Next thing I'll be the only newbie who can't use vi and it'll be all your fault :-( > Have to admit that it took about 2 configuration files and a sore ear > before I could remember to keep pressing escape; once ya get the > hang of it though, you can fly. Now I have to remember not to press > escape when I'm not typing in vi. Have you tried resting your foot on the desk and using your big toe for the Esc key? > Have found the vi tutorial in Unix Unleashed (chapter 7) invaluable as > it has many exercises and key strokes to speed you up that aren't > even listed in the manpages. You can read this book for free at: > http://mcp.com/personal/ . While you're there, peruse their ebooklist. Hmm, interesting. They seem to have a whole book on CGI for browsing, and other published books accessible for a limited period if you register. > I've never been to a computer store that offered such quality and > quantity, and the price is definitely right. There's enough reading > there to keep me busy the next couple decades. > > Hope I sent this message in the right email format; Sue will let me > know if I didn't. 10/10 Congratulations! You have entered the First Circle of Email :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 19:02:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08696 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08685 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup533.serv.net [207.207.70.98]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20409; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615184924.00807910@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:49:24 -0700 To: Malartre , "Kevin G. Eliuk" From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35849338.876944E0@aei.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:21 PM 6/14/98 -0400, Malartre wrote: >You have to do "Esc" after you finished writing and then you can start >moving around. I never even figured out how to start writing! Even in edit mode it didn't seem to just accept characters like most editors do. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 19:02:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08697 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08686 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup533.serv.net [207.207.70.98]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20418; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615185205.007eb670@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:52:05 -0700 To: "Stevan S." From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: What do people on the list use FreeBSD for? Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806150428.XAA26203@zoom.bga.com> References: <199806142026.QAA23819@junior.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 PM 6/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >This might sound funny but I really don't have a use for FreeBSD yet. Not so funny. It's beneficial just to learn a *nix, even if you never use it for a single productive thing (my viewpoint anyway). >This >is my first time installing an OS that I'm not familiar with, but with >independent learning I hope to gain valuable experience of the unix world. >To get a peek of what system administors encounter on a day to day basis. >My background in computer also plays a role in learning FreeBSD. I very >knowledgable about DOS, Win3.*, Win95, and NT and hope to add FreeBSD to my >list of OS's. :) Precisely where I was (and still am) one week ago. Welcome to the group! -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 19:02:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08731 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08714 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup533.serv.net [207.207.70.98]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20430; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615185907.007d6210@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:59:07 -0700 To: mlduke@concentric.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <358546DE.49CE@concentric.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614203302.007d0800@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:07 AM 6/15/98 -0600, ML Duke wrote: >In the beginning was vi, surely created on the first day. Yeah, as I said, it's a throwback to the mainframe days. >Awesome power lurks within and woe to the newbie who ventures into >the mysterious screen without the knowledge of how to exit gracefully. I didn't venture into it, I was FORCED into it when I tried to change my shell. >This newbie once started a thread on freebsd-questions called "stuck in >vi" which made for much good humored fun poking. The first circle >cannot be entered unless the Unix newbie has had his/her fair share >of "%^&!beep&*^^^%!!beep_(*&^%$beep..... Naah, that's 2nd circle stuff. >After being introduced to vi, and beginning to understand the power, >I am convinced that Document Editor was (and still is) only executing >vi commands. Enjoy. Me, I'll stick with ee. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 19:02:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08748 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08722 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup533.serv.net [207.207.70.98]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20426; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615185545.007ff930@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:55:45 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: test it up your nose Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> References: <19980615135818.A515@oaep.go.th> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chill out, Sue... :-) That wasn't delicate at all. And maybe nobody wants to read your letter telling him to stop posting test messages any more than reading his test message. This should have gone to him personally and not to the list, IMO. At 05:50 PM 6/15/98 +1000, you wrote: >Are we having a test mail epidemic or what??! > >Go join freebsd-test or something. > >If you really must test by forcing hundreds of people to download your >test mail, and have absolutely nothing else to share with your newbie >mates, then don't be surprised if hundreds of people write to you >privately to explain in words of two megabytes exactly which orifice >you can stick your test mail in. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 19:58:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16509 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:58:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16434 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:57:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA11665; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:57:42 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980616125739.20591@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:57:39 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test it up your nose References: <19980615135818.A515@oaep.go.th> <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980615185545.007ff930@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615185545.007ff930@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:55:45PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 06:55:45PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Chill out, Sue... :-) That wasn't delicate at all. And maybe nobody wants > to read your letter telling him to stop posting test messages any more than > reading his test message. This should have gone to him personally and not > to the list, IMO. OK, it was over the top with reason. A bit of explanation. It was addressed to the _several_ people who have already posted test messages, and the several hundred who are about to say "gee, that looks like a good idea, I'll try it myself, just one..." As for my statement about being slammed here being better than elsewhere, here's what FreeBSD's postmaster looks like in other lists when he's being more delicate than me: please, never use any list but freebsd-test for test messages. if you use any of the regular lists, you may be removed from the FreeBSD mailing lists. As far as I can tell none of the newbies who posted test messages here have been removed from all FreeBSD lists, yet. Nor had anyone pointed to the rules which everyone is assumed to have read, yet. The type of reaction you might get from regular list members in other lists would make my earlier tirade sound like a mother's kiss. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 20:26:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20607 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20594 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11841; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:25:41 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980616132538.54321@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:25:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: pirat@prime.oaep.go.th, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD References: <3.0.5.32.19980614002726.007fa8c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980615153541.A1607@oaep.go.th> <3.0.5.32.19980615175855.007f0250@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615175855.007f0250@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 05:58:55PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 05:58:55PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Anyway, for anyone who wants to know, here's how I divided up the 1 gig I > dedicated to BSD: > > / - 40 megs > /var - 80 megs (Why did I do this??) > /usr - 820 megs > swap - 60 megs (machine has 32 megs RAM) - sounds reasonable to everyone? > > Any suggestions on how to better divide the disk up should I ever decide to > re-install again (most likely I will be, closer and closer to perfection > every time) let me know via Email at fewtch@serv.net and/or the mailing > list - thanks. Holy cow! This is about the only thing that you can't fix after installation, and you want to get it right. The LAST THING you'd want to be doing is taking advice from a newbie, or from this list, or anyone met on this list. Even if you know that someone here knows what they're talking about, or correspond in private email, you're taking a risk compared to the alternative. If you ask about something like this in freebsd-questions and someone gives you a stupid, biased or mistaken answer, there's hundreds of others ready to correct them. You don't want to throw that opportunity away when your disk depends on it. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 20:43:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24052 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24034 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:43:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA28640; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615204252.007f5da0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:42:52 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: test it up (somewhere)... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980616125739.20591@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980615185545.007ff930@mx.serv.net> <19980615135818.A515@oaep.go.th> <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980615185545.007ff930@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, you should face the fact that people simply DON'T read the charters thoroughly before subscribing to mailing lists, and they are forgetful as well. There's no help for it, no cure for it, people will be people - they *DON'T* RTFM when they can at all avoid it. I agree with you that test messages are silly, the least someone could do is post a message introducing themselves, which functions both as a test to see if they're subscribed AND serves a useful purpose. I just thought the references to sticking things up orifices was a bit unnecessary, and didn't serve any purpose other to antagonize the person who posted the test message, and make YOU look not-so-good in the process. I'll repeat what you said to me once: Take it easy, you're among friends :-) Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 20:44:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24321 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24291 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/05/18 5.10)) id XAA17998; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:44:25 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts002d14.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.50]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id XAA20114; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3585EB1F.221D@concentric.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:48:47 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test it up your nose References: <19980615135818.A515@oaep.go.th> <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980615185545.007ff930@mx.serv.net> <19980616125739.20591@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > Amen, Sue. On the money. Venture to the questions list, brave souls, do a "test" there and see what you get. I wouldn't have replied to this on _any_ other freebsd list but this one. Nor would Sue have bothered were she not attempting to teach. FreeBSD is a serious OS. So are the people who become good with it. Sign me Been There Done That and then RTM. ML Duke > the rules which everyone is assumed to have read, yet. The type of > reaction you might get from regular list members in other lists would > make my earlier tirade sound like a mother's kiss. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 20:47:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24804 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:47:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24799 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pirat@oaep.go.th) Received: from prime.oaep.go.th (slip202-135-22-94.sy.au.ibm.net [202.135.22.94]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA05054 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:47:09 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:47:46 +0700 (ICT) From: pirat sriyotha To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615175855.007f0250@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Go to http://www.tucows.com and http://www.shareware.com. > many thanks indeed Tim. > > That's why my 'main' machine is still a Windows machine. Some in the list > don't understand it and think it makes more sense to put BSD on the more > powerful machine, and relegate Windows to the back burner. > my main reason in using FreeBSD is that 486 cpu is too powerfull to stay with dos. i do not dislike or hate dos, please keep me in your list Tim, but i serveral times, no very often face a problem of insufficient memory in a dual pentium 90 machine with 32 meg ram and 2.1 gig hard disk that runs just microsoft word or excel on dos. btw, thos are useful now for some one that use microsoft office. and i also some time have to go to that machine for print some dot ps document that i generated in my freebsd machine. > > Also, driver availability and hardware support are *very* important to > me, and on my main machine, most of my hardware would be unsupported. > yes, yes yes i went to mad quite often in finding some drivers when using out of date dos application. > >Thirdly, I'm a programmer, and I might want to make money at it sometime. > me too, but for hobby. no one denies money anyway. if programming could make some 'satang', money in my words, i should do it for my kids. > > Any suggestions on how to better divide the disk up should I ever decide to > re-install again (most likely I will be, closer and closer to perfection > every time) let me know via Email at fewtch@serv.net and/or the mailing > list - thanks. > as i know, we should not put /usr and /var on the same partition. beware of /etc/passwd file that one shall make hard link to dead letter just for root shell. that's all i know. and apologize for my ability in using english. regards, psr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 20:50:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25406 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25393 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:50:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA29098; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615205003.007ef680@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:50:03 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980616132538.54321@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980615175855.007f0250@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980614002726.007fa8c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980615153541.A1607@oaep.go.th> <3.0.5.32.19980615175855.007f0250@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, it doesn't really matter... I divided it up OK, it's just that only 2% of the 80 megs in /var is in use, which is kind of a waste (I suppose I can start using /var for more things (caches, etc) to remedy that. Other than that, it's set up RIGHT, it's just hard to find the perfect balance of amount of space each partition needs. I didn't do too badly, except that I wish I'd given /var 40 rather than 80 megs. I made the mistake because on a previous install, I got a system Email I thought was saying only 2% of space on /var was remaining. Actually, it was saying 2% was *used*. So I doubled the amount of space on /var on the next install, thinking it needed more. BTW, re-installing from scratch is never a big deal to me, I learn more every time I do it, and I don't even mind losing some customizations. Maybe I'll customize better the next time around. Most customizations in FreeBSD are in /etc anyway, and I can Gzip and save all that if I ever do a total re-install (which BTW, when v3 of FreeBSD becomes the current release, I *will* be doing - repartitioning and reinstalling from scratch). At 01:25 PM 6/16/98 +1000, you wrote: >> / - 40 megs >> /var - 80 megs (Why did I do this??) >> /usr - 820 megs >> swap - 60 megs (machine has 32 megs RAM) - sounds reasonable to everyone? >Holy cow! This is about the only thing that you can't fix after >installation, and you want to get it right. The LAST THING you'd want >to be doing is taking advice from a newbie, or from this list, >or anyone met on this list. > >Even if you know that someone here knows what they're talking about, or >correspond in private email, you're taking a risk compared to the >alternative. If you ask about something like this in freebsd-questions >and someone gives you a stupid, biased or mistaken answer, there's >hundreds of others ready to correct them. You don't want to throw that >opportunity away when your disk depends on it. > >-- > >Regards, > -*Sue*- -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:06:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28973 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-173.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28905 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:06:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA00556; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:06:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:06:01 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: allen campbell , newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > example, why is there not something as easy to use as the Win95 editor > "EDIT" (open a DOS box and type edit, or go to DOS 7.0 and type edit). > Fully text-mode graphical, uses standardized keys and mouse commands the > rest of the world uses, can edit multiple files, files not limited in size, > etc. This is the best text-mode editor I've ever used, and it's provided > by Microsoft for use on DOS. Don't tell me *nix has anything its equal in > text mode - THERE IS NOTHING AS EASY TO USE AND AS POWERFUL IN TEXT MODE. When DOS Edit can give me my macos, auto correction, and keybinds, I will use it. Until then I will stick to vi. Last time I checked DOS edit was still limited to 64k files. They might have changed it in Win95/NT, but who cares, I have vi. > Come on... I *know* BSD programmers can do better. Write a *CLONE* of the > EDIT utility included with Win95 for text-mode use. An *EXACT* clone. > Consider this a challenge! I don't think you can do it, MS has better > programmers... (trying to piss you off enough to do it!)... If you are that desperate for a better editor try EMACS, Jed, Jove, Joe, or pico. Trying to piss people off is not a way to accomplish anything. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:13:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00217 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00206 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01226; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615211330.007eca80@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:13:30 -0700 To: mlduke@concentric.net From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: test it up your nose Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3585EB1F.221D@concentric.net> References: <19980615135818.A515@oaep.go.th> <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980615185545.007ff930@mx.serv.net> <19980616125739.20591@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:48 PM 6/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >FreeBSD is a serious OS. >So are the people who become good with it. A 'serious' OS? As opposed to what, a casual OS? Gimme a break, FreeBSD is just what you make of it, no more and no less. If you want to install and use it only to display slideshows of X-rated pictures, or just to feel cool that you have Unix installed, that's perfectly fine according to the FreeBSD license and according to anything else. FreeBSD is an OS, like any other OS. The people who use it are people, just like any other people, and they don't necessarily follow rules to the letter, read charters the way they're supposed to or RTFM all the time. A gentle (or even a moderately serious) reminder would have been appropriate. A "stick it up your nose/a**" is not. That's not the way an adult speaks to another adult if they wish to be listened to. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:16:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00709 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-173.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00688 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:16:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA00579; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:15:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:15:54 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: mlduke@concentric.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615185907.007d6210@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 10:07 AM 6/15/98 -0600, ML Duke wrote: > > >In the beginning was vi, surely created on the first day. > > Yeah, as I said, it's a throwback to the mainframe days. Nope, That is XEdit. IBM 370. My school still teaches COBOL on one of those. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:18:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01071 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:18:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01055 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01590; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615211804.007f5b70@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:18:04 -0700 To: mlduke@concentric.net From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Drive Configuration Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3585EEB2.15EA@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:04 PM 6/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >Re / =40 megs etc > >I'm fairly sure, but do not know with _utter certainty_ that a couple >of serious errors are there. Rule of thumb on swap is 2-4 times RAM, >but as with all other things in Unix everything "depends" This so called "rule of thumb" is actually a rule of bologna. It would indicate that if you had 512 megs of RAM in your machine, you need a 1 to 2 gig cache. See the foolishness of this "rule of thumb?" A better rule of thumb: Take your current RAM into account, estimate what apps you will be running, and use your brain rather than your thumb to decide amount of swap space needed. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:22:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02184 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02156 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01899; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615212226.007f76c0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:22:26 -0700 To: higginsj@iname.com From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:06 AM 6/16/98 -0400, you wrote: >When DOS Edit can give me my macos, auto correction, and keybinds, I will >use it. Until then I will stick to vi. Last time I checked DOS edit was >still limited to 64k files. They might have changed it in Win95/NT, but >who cares, I have vi. Just FYI... they did change it. No longer limited to 64k. Macros, auto-correct, keybinds, etc? Sounds like you need a word processor, not a text editor (?). >If you are that desperate for a better editor try EMACS, Jed, Jove, Joe, >or pico. Trying to piss people off is not a way to accomplish anything. I'm happy enough with ee for casual text editing. Pico is not offered as a FreeBSD package (it may be in the ports collection tho, I dunno... I don't have the ports collection installed due to no easy way to download tarballs). -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:34:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04451 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-173.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04341 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:34:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA00636; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:33:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:33:19 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615205003.007ef680@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Well, it doesn't really matter... I divided it up OK, it's just that only > 2% of the 80 megs in /var is in use, which is kind of a waste (I suppose I > can start using /var for more things (caches, etc) to remedy that. Other > than that, it's set up RIGHT, it's just hard to find the perfect balance of > amount of space each partition needs. I didn't do too badly, except that I > wish I'd given /var 40 rather than 80 megs. I made the mistake because on > a previous install, I got a system Email I thought was saying only 2% of > space on /var was remaining. Actually, it was saying 2% was *used*. So I > doubled the amount of space on /var on the next install, thinking it needed > more. I will take the chance to say there ARE reasons/var can be 80 meg or larger. /var/log and /var/spool. If you will be making the machine a mail, news or print sever /var should be large for the spool files. Also, if you want to be 'paraniod' and log the world a large /var is needed. I have also used some scientific apps that make HEAVY use of /var and /tmp. As in hunderds of megs. If this was the case then both you / and /var partitions would be in trouble. The morale, think about what you want the machine for before writing the partition table or disk label. Also, a bad partition table is not the end of the world. My /usr filled up kind of quickly and I took an old disk and moved /usr/src and /usr/ports to it. Add 2 lines to /etc/fstab and I was fine. Not everyone has the luxury of another drive, so use FIPS and shave another partition off that windows partition and use it for something. This is all the beauty of a hierarchal filesystem. Also, if you have a good backup you can just wipe, repartition, and reload the backup as if nothing happened. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:38:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05437 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-173.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05415 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:38:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA00655; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:38:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:38:11 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: higginsj@iname.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615212226.007f76c0@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 12:06 AM 6/16/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >When DOS Edit can give me my macos, auto correction, and keybinds, I will > >use it. Until then I will stick to vi. Last time I checked DOS edit was > >still limited to 64k files. They might have changed it in Win95/NT, but > >who cares, I have vi. > > Just FYI... they did change it. No longer limited to 64k. Macros, > auto-correct, keybinds, etc? Sounds like you need a word processor, not a > text editor (?). Marcros are great for programming. You still have to edit basic text and make simple typos, auto correct fixes that, and I like adding functionality to unused command keys. vi gives me all that. > >If you are that desperate for a better editor try EMACS, Jed, Jove, Joe, > >or pico. Trying to piss people off is not a way to accomplish anything. > > I'm happy enough with ee for casual text editing. Pico is not offered as a > FreeBSD package (it may be in the ports collection tho, I dunno... I don't > have the ports collection installed due to no easy way to download tarballs). Pico is the editor used with the Pine mail package. Install pine and it should be there. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:43:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06337 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06311 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03515; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615214303.007f7960@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:43:03 -0700 To: higginsj@iname.com From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980615205003.007ef680@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:33 AM 6/16/98 -0400, James wrote: >I have also used some scientific apps that make HEAVY use of /var and >/tmp. As in hunderds of megs. If this was the case then both you / and >/var partitions would be in trouble. The morale, think about what you >want the machine for before writing the partition table or disk label. Weren't these scientific apps configurable to use different directories, say custom dirs in /usr? If not, they weren't very well written. >Not everyone has the luxury of another drive, so use FIPS and shave >another partition off that windows partition and use it for something. >This is all the beauty of a hierarchal filesystem. I use the text-mode version of Partition Magic, which is a little more powerful than FIPS but essentially the same thing. But you're right, it's fairly easy to make adjustments. The only problem is, Win95 is overly sensitive to your system configuration. If you make its partition smaller or larger, it will know it somehow and you'll have problems (probably a setting somewhere in the system.dat portion of the registry). I've found this out from experience. So I don't play around with resizing partitions containing Win95. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:44:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06550 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from baygull.rtd.com (baygull.rtd.com [198.102.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06530 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uusite!ANGUSSF@baygull.rtd.com) Received: from uusite.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by baygull.rtd.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) with UUCP id VAA21991 for newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:44:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199806160444.VAA21991@baygull.rtd.com> Received: by sf.geoapps.com (MG PM3-Waf 3.42D); Mon, 15 Jun 98 21:41:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Angus Scott-Fleming" Organization: GeoApps To: Nik Clayton Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:32:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: *BSD flavours? Reply-to: angussf@geoapps.com CC: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19980611004224.07077@nothing-going-on.org> References: <199806100600.XAA10032@baygull.rtd.com>; from Angus Scott-Fleming on Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 10:43:51PM -0700 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Jun 98 at 0:42, Nik Clayton wrote: > NetBSD (if my understanding is correct) is more of a direct > descendent from 4.3BSD (there was no intermediate 386BSD stage) > although in the intervening time there has been a lot of 'cross > pollenisation' > > FreeBSD (because of it's 386BSD roots) has already been targeted at > the Intel platform. NetBSD runs on many different platforms. Hmmm. Sounds like their might be some advantages to running NetBSD over FreeBSD because of the multi-platform support. Or is FreeBSD's Alpha port the harbinger of Good Things in this regard? > OpenBSD's particular speciality is security. Funny how Open* works on closing loopholes ... Thanks for the rundown .... ---- Angus Scott-Fleming, GeoApplications angussf@geoapps.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:51:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07686 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:51:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07681 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA04056; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615215049.007f9b20@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:50:49 -0700 To: higginsj@iname.com From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: higginsj@iname.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980615212226.007f76c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:38 AM 6/16/98 -0400, James wrote: >> Just FYI... they did change it. No longer limited to 64k. Macros, >> auto-correct, keybinds, etc? Sounds like you need a word processor, not a >> text editor (?). > >Marcros are great for programming. You still have to edit basic text and >make simple typos, auto correct fixes that, and I like adding >functionality to unused command keys. > >vi gives me all that. to each their own. I'm sure there are programmer's text editors out there that are easier to use and offer everything vi does (and perhaps more). But if you like vi and don't want to change, of course nobody is gonna try and change your mind. >Pico is the editor used with the Pine mail package. Install pine and it >should be there. Thanks for the info. If I get tired of ee, I'll install PINE (I should probably have it installed anyway since I'll be getting a modem soon for my BSD machine). Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 21:56:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08812 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:56:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-173.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08784 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:56:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA00780; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:56:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:56:19 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: higginsj@iname.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615215049.007f9b20@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 12:38 AM 6/16/98 -0400, James wrote: > > >> Just FYI... they did change it. No longer limited to 64k. Macros, > >> auto-correct, keybinds, etc? Sounds like you need a word processor, not a > >> text editor (?). > > > >Marcros are great for programming. You still have to edit basic text and > >make simple typos, auto correct fixes that, and I like adding > >functionality to unused command keys. > > > >vi gives me all that. > > to each their own. I'm sure there are programmer's text editors > out there that are easier to use and offer everything vi does (and perhaps > more). But if you like vi and don't want to change, of course nobody is > gonna try and change your mind. > > >Pico is the editor used with the Pine mail package. Install pine and it > >should be there. > > Thanks for the info. If I get tired of ee, I'll install PINE (I should > probably have it installed anyway since I'll be getting a modem soon for my > BSD machine). Beats the crap outta mail. I will probably get it from a mail user now. :) James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 22:14:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12864 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-173.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12738 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA00854; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:13:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:13:30 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615214303.007f7960@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 12:33 AM 6/16/98 -0400, James wrote: > > >I have also used some scientific apps that make HEAVY use of /var and > >/tmp. As in hunderds of megs. If this was the case then both you / and > >/var partitions would be in trouble. The morale, think about what you > >want the machine for before writing the partition table or disk label. > > Weren't these scientific apps configurable to use different directories, > say custom dirs in /usr? If not, they weren't very well written. They lived in /usr but they did several very complex integrations in the process of running and wrote out large temporary files containing results and partial results that resided in /var and /tmp until the app terminated. Problem is that even on an RS/6000 with 512 meg of RAM and SCSI disks they took days or as much as a month to complete one job. Meanwhile, the machine is still cranking on with it's daily duties. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 22:22:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15274 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:22:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15225 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA06200; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615222144.007fea10@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:21:44 -0700 To: higginsj@iname.com From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980615214303.007f7960@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:13 AM 6/16/98 -0400, James wrote: >They lived in /usr but they did several very complex integrations in the >process of running and wrote out large temporary files containing >results and partial results that resided in /var and /tmp until the app >terminated. > >Problem is that even on an RS/6000 with 512 meg of RAM and SCSI disks >they took days or as much as a month to complete one job. > >Meanwhile, the machine is still cranking on with it's daily duties. Precisely what I love most about FreeBSD. Try that on Win NT and everything will crawl like a snail (both the scientific app and the other daily duties, or if you're lucky it's either/or). Nothing beats *nix multitasking, I haven't found a single other type of OS that even comes close. Exactly why MS will never own the Internet server market. They'll manage to carve out a niche (10% if they REALLY try hard) with NT server, and that's about it. They'll do somewhat better with company intranets, due to lack of people who know Unix, and lack of need for as much power. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 22:23:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15678 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cybcon.com (root@cybcon.com [205.147.64.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15652 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wwoods@cybcon.com) Received: from cybcon.com (support1.cybcon.com [205.147.75.183]) by cybcon.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with ESMTP id WAA11323 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35860135.4D36773C@cybcon.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:23:01 -0700 From: William Woods X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test it up your nose References: <19980615135818.A515@oaep.go.th> <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980615185545.007ff930@mx.serv.net> <19980616125739.20591@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980615211330.007eca80@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yo guys.....Chill. A guy made a mistake.... "Can't we all just get along...." :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 22:44:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21300 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from chipweb.ml.org (qmailr@c1003518-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.1.82.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA21226 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ludwigp@bigfoot.com) Received: (qmail 28212 invoked by uid 666); 16 Jun 1998 05:44:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO speedy.chipweb.ml.org) (172.16.1.1) by 172.16.1.5 with SMTP; 16 Jun 1998 05:44:27 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980615224424.0075cc8c@mail.plstn1.sfba.home.com> X-Sender: ludwigp@mail.plstn1.sfba.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:44:24 -0700 To: higginsj@iname.com, Tim Gerchmez From: Ludwig Pummer Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: allen campbell , newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:06 AM 6/16/98 -0400, James wrote: >If you are that desperate for a better editor try EMACS, Jed, Jove, Joe, >or pico. Trying to piss people off is not a way to accomplish anything. Haven't tried any of those, except Xemacs (for color-coded C source code), but ee is pretty close to EDIT. --Ludwig Pummer ludwigp@bigfoot.com ICQ UIN: 692441 http://chipweb.home.ml.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 15 23:27:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00170 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00154 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:27:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup727.serv.net [207.207.65.91]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA10549 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:27:20 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Pine and Pico Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just installed. Interesting to note that they were written at the University of Washington (I live in the Seattle area and have been to the UW campus many times). Kinda makes 'em feel homey. BTW, very simple newbie-ish question probably so simple that it's inappropriate anywhere else, so I'll risk someone's wrath and ask it. What's the equivalent in Unix of %1, %2, etc in a DOS batch file? For example, if I wanted to run a program with the contents of the command line (say, for creating an alias in .cshrc), what do I use? Emails directly to me, not to the list if you wanna answer (ducking for plate thrown by Sue because I asked a question ;-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 00:12:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07982 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA07965 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjsan@bga.com) Received: (qmail 12886 invoked from network); 16 Jun 1998 07:12:07 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 16 Jun 1998 07:12:07 -0000 Received: from stevan (dial-46-19.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.147]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA19407 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 02:11:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199806160711.CAA19407@zoom.bga.com> X-Sender: sjsan@mailserv.bga.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 02:09:47 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Stevan S." Subject: HD running wild Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey guys, Well the PC that I am using to test out FreeBSD just came alive...it was weird. I was reading the handbook on the web site when the PC's hard-drive became active after it had been idling for an hour. It kind of remembered me of the "fast-find" from Office 97 when it installs its fast-find into program startup. So usually when any HD on my computers become active for no reason I look at the system processes. It just happened I read about "top" so I did that and found that a "FIND" was active without me exec it. It ran 3-4 mins using 34%CPU. Anyway, I'm just puzzled on what caused it. Well it 2AM and I should go to bed and figure it out later. :) Cheers, Stevan __ Stevan S. sjsan@bga.com Tell me and I'll Forget... Show me and I'll Remember... Involve me and I'll Understand. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 00:14:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08192 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA08162 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjsan@bga.com) Received: (qmail 25026 invoked from network); 16 Jun 1998 07:13:45 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 16 Jun 1998 07:13:45 -0000 Received: from stevan (dial-46-19.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.112.147]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA19848 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 02:13:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199806160713.CAA19848@zoom.bga.com> X-Sender: sjsan@mailserv.bga.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 02:11:27 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Stevan S." Subject: ERR...HD running wild Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Umm... i do need to go to bed. :P Err... my bad. remembered = reminded Cheers, Stevan __ Stevan S. sjsan@bga.com Tell me and I'll Forget... Show me and I'll Remember... Involve me and I'll Understand. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 02:09:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28890 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 02:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA28879 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 02:09:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pirat@oaep.go.th) Received: from prime.oaep.go.th (slip202-135-22-121.sy.au.ibm.net [202.135.22.121]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA51384; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:08:27 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:08:37 +0700 (ICT) From: pirat sriyotha To: Sue Blake cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test it up your nose In-Reply-To: <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi all newbies, sorry for doing that. i remember that i just apologize the first time only to Sue. for all newbies now, i am sorry. rgds, pirat sriyotha On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:50:49 +1000 > From: Sue Blake > To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: test it up your nose > > Are we having a test mail epidemic or what??! > > Go join freebsd-test or something. > > If you really must test by forcing hundreds of people to download your > test mail, and have absolutely nothing else to share with your newbie > mates, then don't be surprised if hundreds of people write to you > privately to explain in words of two megabytes exactly which orifice > you can stick your test mail in. > > Sorry, but if you don't learn this here now, you'll learn it less > delicately elsewhere. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 03:22:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11223 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:22:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@199-170-160-168.la.inreach.net [199.107.160.168]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA11212 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:22:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id DAA01638; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:20:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806160711.CAA19407@zoom.bga.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Computer Help From: Donald Burr To: "Stevan S." Subject: RE: HD running wild Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My secret spy satellite informs me that on 16-Jun-98, Stevan S. wrote: > hard-drive > became active after it had been idling for an hour. It kind of > remembered UNIX systems (and FreeBSD systems, by extension) come with a utility called "cron." The purpose of this utility is to run specific jobs at specific dates and/or times of the day. For example, it can be used to perform automated backups of your system when you're not in, send you reminder e-mail of upcoming events (anniversaries, birthdays, etc.), or do other periodic/repetitive type "system maintenance" tasks. (if you have used Windows 95 with the Microsoft "Plus! Pack" isntalled, this feature is quite similar to the "System Agent" program that comes with Plus!.) One of hte things FreeBSD is set up to do, by default, is use "cron" to run special "clean up" type jobs every night. There are three jobs that are set up to run. These are: Daily -- runs every day at 2:00 A.M. This job reports on general system status. It e-mails you with info on your system -- how full your hard disk(s) are (and how much space is left), how well your network (or dial-up connection) is working, when you have last done a backup (and when backups need to be done), etc. It also checks every file on your computer, for possible security violations (in case some malicious hacker has managed to slip a security breach in while you weren't looking). Weekly -- runs every week, on Saturday morning, at 3:30 AM. This job rebuilds special data-bases that make searching "man" pages and searching for speicfic files on your hard drive run much faster. Monthly -- runs every month, on the 1st of that month, at 5:30 AM. This job basically runs system accounting - it reports on what your users have been doing, and how much "cpu time" they have used up, etc. It souds like you ran into one of these jobs. (My guess is the "daily" job.) My sadvice to you: Don't Panic. These jobs do very beneficial and good things, and can only stand to benefit both you and your system. They don't really slow you down that much, either. --- Donald Burr - Ask me for my PGP key | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations - http://www.freebsd.org/ (NOTE: POBoxes.com appears to be working again -- fire away!) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 04:47:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22181 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from weblock.tm.net.my (weblock.tm.net.my [202.188.0.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA22176 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:46:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chickena@tm.net.my) Received: from cool ([202.188.34.5]) by weblock.tm.net.my (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 581-49008U190000L190000S0) with SMTP id AAA20286 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:46:11 +0800 Message-ID: <000201bd991c$34cfa780$6200a8c0@cool> From: "Noobt" To: Subject: Need guides Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:25:39 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3026.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3026.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings all, My main purpose is to install FreeBSd and NEC socks proxy software as a proxy server serving win95 clients. Is it possible or has anyone successfully done it? If it's possible... I've downloaded the BSD bootdisk.... from ftp.cdrom.com What else should I download? And regarding partition.... I've a spare PC and does not have to have a Ms-DOS partition. I assumed.... I need a Ms-DOS partition to hold the installation files before installing.. So... do i need to create a MS-DOS partition and how large will that be? Perhaps... there's a instructions for newbies on the net how to install FreeBSD ? Thanks in advance... Best Regards, Hial Noobt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 06:35:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07551 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 06:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.honk.org (mpoulin@honk.org [206.191.48.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA07540 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 06:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpoulin@honk.org) Received: from localhost (mpoulin@localhost) by mail.honk.org (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA08111; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:36:18 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:36:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Marty Poulin To: Noobt cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need guides In-Reply-To: <000201bd991c$34cfa780$6200a8c0@cool> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Perhaps... there's a instructions for newbies on the net how to install > FreeBSD ? > > Thanks in advance... > Best Regards, > Hial Noobt http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/install.html =========== Quotefile(c) 1997 Martin Poulin (1st Circle) =============== Genius is one per cent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration. - Thomas Alva Edison, "Life" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 07:15:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12065 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:15:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12029 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA13854; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:15:39 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617001535.55843@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:15:35 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Noobt Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need guides References: <000201bd991c$34cfa780$6200a8c0@cool> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <000201bd991c$34cfa780$6200a8c0@cool>; from Noobt on Sat, May 16, 1998 at 02:25:39AM +0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 16, 1998 at 02:25:39AM +0800, Noobt wrote: > Greetings all, > My main purpose is to install FreeBSd and NEC socks proxy software as a > proxy server serving win95 clients. > Is it possible or has anyone successfully done it? > > If it's possible... > I've downloaded the BSD bootdisk.... from ftp.cdrom.com > What else should I download? > And regarding partition.... I've a spare PC and does not have to have a > Ms-DOS partition. > I assumed.... I need a Ms-DOS partition to hold the installation files > before installing.. > So... do i need to create a MS-DOS partition and how large will that be? > > Perhaps... there's a instructions for newbies on the net how to install > FreeBSD ? One way to approach this is to follow the links on http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html to information that can help you. Also on that page you'll find the address to write to if you have further questions about the installation after reading through the instructions. Let us know if you have any comments on that page. While we can't offer help to each other directly as newbies, we like to be able to steer each other to the best sources of help. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 07:28:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14447 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:28:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA14439 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA13903; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:28:07 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617002803.07527@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:28:03 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico References: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:27:20PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:27:20PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Emails directly to me, not to the list if you wanna answer (ducking for > plate thrown by Sue because I asked a question ;-) So why did you ask it like that? :-) If you want to know something, you can bet that others are hanging around freebsd-questions or the -questions archives hoping to see those kinds of answers. If you're not careful you'll get a reputation for demanding one-to-one hand-holding which will reflect badly on all of us. Asking a question, any question, in freebsd-questions is making a contribution back to the community. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 09:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03072 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-25.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03064 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA01964; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:11:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:11:04 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: higginsj@iname.com, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615222144.007fea10@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 01:13 AM 6/16/98 -0400, James wrote: > > >They lived in /usr but they did several very complex integrations in the > >process of running and wrote out large temporary files containing > >results and partial results that resided in /var and /tmp until the app > >terminated. > > > >Problem is that even on an RS/6000 with 512 meg of RAM and SCSI disks > >they took days or as much as a month to complete one job. > > > >Meanwhile, the machine is still cranking on with it's daily duties. > > Precisely what I love most about FreeBSD. Try that on Win NT and > everything will crawl like a snail (both the scientific app and the other > daily duties, or if you're lucky it's either/or). > Try it on a PC and it crawls. Dual PPro 200 and similar hardware took almost double the time. The PPro was using Red Hat Linux. James > with NT server, and that's about it. They'll do somewhat better with > company intranets, due to lack of people who know Unix, and lack of need > for as much power. My company intranet uses a mix of UNIX and NT Server. Once again, everything has it's purpose. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 09:19:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04465 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04443 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:19:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA14352; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:17:11 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617021705.39169@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:17:05 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: pirat sriyotha Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test it up your nose References: <19980615175049.19948@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from pirat sriyotha on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 04:08:37PM +0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 04:08:37PM +0700, pirat sriyotha wrote: > hi all newbies, > sorry for doing that. i remember that i just apologize the first time > only to Sue. for all newbies now, > > i am sorry. Thanks for apologising, but please don't take the blame yourself. Many people sent test messages because it looked like the normal thing to do. Sorry I came down so heavy on everyone, but at least nobody will forget now :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 12:47:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08939 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08926 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup535.serv.net [207.207.70.100]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA29403 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980616124709.007ebb90@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:09 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: I did it... BSD is on my main PC... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've decided on a complete reorganization of my main PC (it was about time for a Win95 re-install anyway). I now have BSD up and running on my P200MMX box (vs. the 486DX2-66 on my other machine), and what a difference it makes speed-wise... also, it's nice to have the modem connection now. I have a dual boot between BSD and Win95 using the OS/2 boot manager included with Partition Magic (which I happen to like quite a bit - very configurable, and only takes a 0.3 meg partition). It's amazing how much better X-windows works on a Tseng ET-6000 PCI based card vs. an ATI Mach32 VLB card... there's no comparison. This machine blows the other one away completely. I still have no sound card that works with BSD, although I don't care much... I'm not much of a gamer, and will use Windows for sound-related stuff. I still haven't gotten the ppp0 device connected to my modem up and running yet either... more configuration to do :-) I also plan to build a custom kernel on this machine as well. Only 850 megs of space dedicated to BSD on this PC, but it should be enough - I'll do text-based C programming on the other machine (more source installed), and use this one more for fun X-Windows stuff and for modeming around the Net. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 12:47:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08940 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08924 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup535.serv.net [207.207.70.100]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA29397; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980616123805.007f19a0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:38:05 -0700 To: David Wolfskill From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806161538.IAA26823@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:38 AM 6/16/98 -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: >>From: Tim Gerchmez > >>It bothers me a little that longtime *nix people are so dedicated to the >>traditions of their OS that they are very slow to make changes. > >Why should what other folks choose to do bother *you*? Because I'm now involved in the community and consider myself a *nix user, so what others think and do has the ability to either please or bother me. Make sense? -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 12:47:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08969 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08938 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup535.serv.net [207.207.70.100]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA29392; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:34:20 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Pine and Pico Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980617002803.07527@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I appreciate your attitude on this, but: (1) My question was so simple I was sure it has been asked before. (2) There are hundreds of questions a day being asked and answered in that newsgroup (I should know, I was subscribed to it for exactly half a day), one or two from me a week isn't going to contribute much of anything, unless they're very esoteric and technical questions that have likely not been asked before. At 12:28 AM 6/17/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 11:27:20PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> >> Emails directly to me, not to the list if you wanna answer (ducking for >> plate thrown by Sue because I asked a question ;-) > >So why did you ask it like that? :-) If you want to know something, you >can bet that others are hanging around freebsd-questions or the >-questions archives hoping to see those kinds of answers. If you're not >careful you'll get a reputation for demanding one-to-one hand-holding >which will reflect badly on all of us. > >Asking a question, any question, in freebsd-questions is making a >contribution back to the community. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 14:31:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28130 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.honk.org (mpoulin@honk.org [206.191.48.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28121 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpoulin@honk.org) Received: from localhost (mpoulin@localhost) by mail.honk.org (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08607; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:32:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:32:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Marty Poulin To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > I appreciate your attitude on this, but: > > (1) My question was so simple I was sure it has been asked before. It probably has (most questions have already been asked at least once.) That's what makes "www.freebsd.org/search.html" so handy. It lets you search the mailing list archives as well as the Usenet news groups. > > (2) There are hundreds of questions a day being asked and answered in that > newsgroup (I should know, I was subscribed to it for exactly half a day), > one or two from me a week isn't going to contribute much of anything, > unless they're very esoteric and technical questions that have likely not > been asked before. > Not true! I have had a few newbie questions answered in there; the replies always CC:'d to my email address so I didn't have to subscribe to the mailing list. Not to mention that having your question answered in there adds one more 'hit' to the search engine the next time someone is looking for the same answer. Better to have a flood of info that you can sift through, than none at all. =========== Quotefile(c) 1997 Martin Poulin (1st Circle) =============== That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind. - Neil Armstrong To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 15:54:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12737 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12724 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22820; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:27:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980616192757.43828@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:27:57 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: angussf@geoapps.com, Nik Clayton Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *BSD flavours? References: <199806100600.XAA10032@baygull.rtd.com>; <19980611004224.07077@nothing-going-on.org> <199806160443.VAA21989@baygull.rtd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199806160443.VAA21989@baygull.rtd.com>; from Angus Scott-Fleming on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:32:03PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:32:03PM -0700, Angus Scott-Fleming wrote: > Hmmm. Sounds like their might be some advantages to running NetBSD > over FreeBSD because of the multi-platform support. Depends if multi-platform support is important to you or not. Each of the BSDs has its own strengths and weaknesses. > Or is FreeBSD's Alpha port the harbinger of Good Things in this regard? It's not that the FreeBSD core team don't want FreeBSD to work across more platforms. But it takes people to want to do it before the work starts. It's a good thing, in and of itself, and will help FreeBSD, if only because the code cleanup necessary to get code working on a 64 bit processor will help make it more portable. N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 15:55:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12917 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:55:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12880 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:55:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23306; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:31:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980616193152.28429@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:31:52 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Sue Blake , Tim Gerchmez Cc: pirat@prime.oaep.go.th, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD References: <3.0.5.32.19980614002726.007fa8c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980615153541.A1607@oaep.go.th> <3.0.5.32.19980615175855.007f0250@mx.serv.net> <19980616132538.54321@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980616132538.54321@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:25:38PM +1000 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:25:38PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > Holy cow! This is about the only thing that you can't fix after > installation, and you want to get it right. The LAST THING you'd want > to be doing is taking advice from a newbie, or from this list, > or anyone met on this list. Not everyone on this list *is* a FreeBSD newbie. I think that's probably a good thing, since (hopefully) bad advice can be spotted and corrected (in an appropriate fashion, of course). I think that some of the "why" discussions when it comes to disk partioning (as opposed to the "how" discussions of how you run disklabel and others) might be germane to this list. IMHO of course, and I'll cheerfully be told I'm wrong :-) N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 16:40:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20411 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from natsiq.nunanet.com (root@natsiq.nunanet.com [199.247.47.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA20392 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:40:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@nunanet.com) Received: from morrigan (ppp-198.nunanet.com [199.247.47.198]) by natsiq.nunanet.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA23629 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:34:27 -0400 Message-ID: <002e01bd997f$c878d3e0$c62ff7c7@morrigan> From: "Marcel Mason" To: Subject: Re: X & kde : lovin it! Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:37:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: geoff jukema To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 9:01 PM Subject: X & kde : lovin it! >I upgraded my BSD machine recently from the old put-together from useless >pieces 386, to a new Pentium 200. I did this because i wanted my faster >machine to be FreeBSD with all the goodies; aka X & try out kde. I'm headed down the same road, I've decided that no matter what the little devil says BSD & Win95 cannot reside happily on the same machine if there are multiple people in the household using it (I boot to BSD, they boot to Win95, I reboot to ... well you get the picture). Add to that the fact that X and my video card (Matrox) don't seem to get along too well and a kde website that is just *far* to easy to get to and the solution is clear.... get another box, built for *nix (yes they are available) and leave the other box to the rest of those in the house who want it. > >I was really impressed with how little difficulty X really was. I ran the >GUI install from the two different options (/stand/sysinstall), and i >clicked around a few tabs and before i could say good-bye microsoft, I had >a running X windows. Also glad to hear that another newbie made it run, gives me hope that when the new box arrives I too will experience success !! >Then came kde. It looks great and installed just as easy as X. I >donwloaded the files (after reading some docs on what was required), and >ran add_pkg on it. All i had to do was add a few things to my path, and >presto! Makes me happier still, there seem to be a fairly large number of {k}app's available and I still *do* need to get some regular work done. Marcel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 16:53:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22257 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-25.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22250 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02707; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:52:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:52:56 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > I appreciate your attitude on this, but: > > (1) My question was so simple I was sure it has been asked before. > Thge http://www.freebsd.org/ and search the freebsd-questions archives. The answer would be there. > (2) There are hundreds of questions a day being asked and answered in that > newsgroup (I should know, I was subscribed to it for exactly half a day), > one or two from me a week isn't going to contribute much of anything, > unless they're very esoteric and technical questions that have likely not > been asked before. I subscribe to -questions, -newbies, -announce, apache-announce, and a few others. I only get about 300 messages a day. It is not that bad. -questions is receptive to almost any question regardless of if it has been asked before or not. Some people, (Doug White :) ) appear to answer EVERYTHING! : ) (Not that that is bad, I am just used to seeing Dougs name for a long list of messages in my box.) James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 17:07:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24773 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:07:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24754 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA15796; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:02:18 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617100214.10135@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:02:15 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nik Clayton Cc: Tim Gerchmez , pirat@prime.oaep.go.th, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD References: <3.0.5.32.19980614002726.007fa8c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980613224241.007ecb30@mx.serv.net> <19980615153541.A1607@oaep.go.th> <3.0.5.32.19980615175855.007f0250@mx.serv.net> <19980616132538.54321@welearn.com.au> <19980616193152.28429@nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980616193152.28429@nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 07:31:52PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 07:31:52PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:25:38PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > Holy cow! This is about the only thing that you can't fix after > > installation, and you want to get it right. The LAST THING you'd want > > to be doing is taking advice from a newbie, or from this list, > > or anyone met on this list. > > > > Not everyone on this list *is* a FreeBSD newbie. I think that's probably > a good thing, since (hopefully) bad advice can be spotted and corrected > (in an appropriate fashion, of course). This list is specifically *for* newbies to talk to other newbies, but nobody is barred from joining. Advice on what to do and how to do it, especially where there are problems, belongs to freebsd-questions (but see below). Lest there be any doubt, this is clearly spelled out 1. on the list charters page 2. in the info majordomo sends upon joining 3. http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html 4. http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies 5. in the weekly posting to this list each Friday or Saturday In the past, misinformation has been spread among newbies and others have used it as ammunition to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to get together because they'll spread misinformation making more work for the freebsd-questions volunteers. As a group we have quite a reputation to live down. So far I think we have shown our worth by just being ourselves. > I think that some of the "why" discussions when it comes to disk partioning > (as opposed to the "how" discussions of how you run disklabel and others) > might be germane to this list. IMHO of course, and I'll cheerfully be told > I'm wrong :-) That kind of "why" discussion fits in here well. It meets the critereon of being something that is not done on another list. Our main activity seems to be learning, rather than asking and telling how to do things. Your explanations of various topics in the past have been much appreciated. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 17:14:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26431 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:14:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (root@client-151-197-112-25.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA26413 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02726; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:58:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@lies.dyn.ml.org) X-Authentication-Warning: minos.dyn.ml.org: dominus owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:58:40 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I did it... BSD is on my main PC... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616124709.007ebb90@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > It's amazing how much better X-windows works on a Tseng ET-6000 PCI based > card vs. an ATI Mach32 VLB card... there's no comparison. This machine > blows the other one away completely. I have used the ATI Rage II AGP with X and it was sweet. Also, I like that Matrox Millineum II 8 Meg and PCI is great. :) > I still have no sound card that works with BSD, although I don't care > much... I'm not much of a gamer, and will use Windows for sound-related > stuff. I still haven't gotten the ppp0 device connected to my modem up and > running yet either... more configuration to do :-) I also plan to build a User user ppp and the tun0 device. IMHO, it is ALOT easier. Brain Somers did a great job on that piece of software. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 17:56:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03943 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03925 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (tulip29.verinet.com [199.45.181.221]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA27026; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:56:20 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00493; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:56:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:56:15 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199806170056.SAA00493@struct.> To: fewtch@serv.net Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Power means little when it is not accompanied by at least a little ease of > use/attention to user interface design (Bill Gates figured this out, and > he's the richest man on the planet at this point). I could design an > automobile consisting of a steel-reinforced cardboard box, a steering > mechanism designed to be steered by the small toes on each foot, and steel > tires, with a 1000 horsepower engine and 500 gallon gas tank hanging on the > side, *VERY* powerful, you think anyone wants to drive it? Unix is user friendly. It's just not beginner friendly. Vi is somewhat of a right of passage. Please consider making a concerted effort to become productive with it. That doesn't mean you have to put up with it if you don't want to. I have already pointed out the many alternatives available to you. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 18:15:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07212 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:15:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07194 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup527.serv.net [207.207.70.92]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA27400; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980616181522.007f0990@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:15:22 -0700 To: allen campbell From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806170056.SAA00493@struct.> References: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:56 PM 6/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >Unix is user friendly. It's just not beginner friendly. > >Vi is somewhat of a right of passage. Unix isn't a cult or a fraternity with rites of passage, is it? I could have sworn it was an operating system. >Please consider making a >concerted effort to become productive with it. No f*#$$ way. Why the hell should I, because you say so and it's some sort of silly-ass rite of passage to learn it? There are a million other alternatives out there. Sorry I'm being something of a grouch, but I hate this fanatic type crap, and will NEVER be one of those *nix users who think their OS is the only one worth using and get on everyone else's case who uses another OS. I hate those f*&$#$ers. Sorry, all, I'm grumpy today. A lot of hrs. without sleep again. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 18:31:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08878 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:31:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08866 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:31:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrF-19.aei.ca [206.186.205.19]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24205; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35871C17.EB2898B@aei.ca> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:29:59 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: allen campbell , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980616181522.007f0990@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > At 06:56 PM 6/16/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >Unix is user friendly. It's just not beginner friendly. > > > >Vi is somewhat of a right of passage. > > Unix isn't a cult or a fraternity with rites of passage, is it? I could > have sworn it was an operating system. > > >Please consider making a > >concerted effort to become productive with it. > > No f*#$$ way. Why the hell should I, because you say so and it's some sort > of silly-ass rite of passage to learn it? There are a million other > alternatives out there. > > Sorry I'm being something of a grouch, but I hate this fanatic type crap, > and will NEVER be one of those *nix users who think their OS is the only > one worth using and get on everyone else's case who uses another OS. I > hate those f*&$#$ers. > > Sorry, all, I'm grumpy today. A lot of hrs. without sleep again. > Argh, Tim you are closed minded. I'm newbie. I dont think un*x is the solution for a newbie. But if you want to know un*x, know basic tools common to unix. Vi is one of the most important, because if someday you go on another un*x-clone, vi will be there. Not ee. In fact, you will have to learn a lot of long maybe boring thing other than vi. You will have to read ugly but usefull man page. You have no reason to think than because we suggest vi, you will have to think than FreeBSD is the only good OS in the world. Its a really good suggestion. Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 18:48:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11012 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11000 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:48:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16165; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:47:57 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617114753.27503@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:47:53 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: allen campbell , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> <199806170056.SAA00493@struct.> <3.0.5.32.19980616181522.007f0990@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616181522.007f0990@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 06:15:22PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 06:15:22PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 06:56 PM 6/16/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >Unix is user friendly. It's just not beginner friendly. > > > >Vi is somewhat of a right of passage. > > Unix isn't a cult or a fraternity with rites of passage, is it? No. Most people don't use vi as their main editor but have some skill with it to use in an emergency. I won't be pressured into using vi, and nobody will think me less of a man because of that. When there's nothing else around, I can use ed. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 19:19:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16180 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (cc344191-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.83.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16164 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:19:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Received: by luomat.peak.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA23226 for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806170219.WAA23226@luomat.peak.org> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 22:19:52 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Getting ready for install #1.... Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I borrowed my friend's 2.2.5 CDs, and have a new HD on the way. I'll be trying to setup a dual-boot machine (on a 4gb drive). I'm going to check the FAQ for my hardware to make sure it will all work. I'm very excited I've started each sentence with "I". Oh well ;-) TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 19:22:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16738 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:22:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from libra.sfsu.edu (fontenay@libra.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16630 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:22:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fontenay@libra.sfsu.edu) Received: (from fontenay@localhost) by libra.sfsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28142 for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:22:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Gerald Victor Fontenay Message-Id: <199806170222.TAA28142@libra.sfsu.edu> Subject: re: vi To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org if you do even the smallest amount of administration, you simply need to know how to use vi..it's not just for emergencies..everyone who uses a unix system "should" learn atleast the basic commands..this has been quite the thread in this mailing list..is it really that hard to learn a few keystrokes? gerry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 20:24:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25098 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (root@client-151-197-112-18.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25073 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00398; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:49:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@localhost.dyn.ml.org) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:49:44 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Sue Blake cc: Nik Clayton , Tim Gerchmez , pirat@prime.oaep.go.th, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD In-Reply-To: <19980617100214.10135@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 07:31:52PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:25:38PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > Holy cow! This is about the only thing that you can't fix after > > > installation, and you want to get it right. The LAST THING you'd want > > > to be doing is taking advice from a newbie, or from this list, > > > or anyone met on this list. > > > > > > > > Not everyone on this list *is* a FreeBSD newbie. I think that's probably > > a good thing, since (hopefully) bad advice can be spotted and corrected > > (in an appropriate fashion, of course). > > This list is specifically *for* newbies to talk to other newbies, but > nobody is barred from joining. Advice on what to do and how to do it, > especially where there are problems, belongs to freebsd-questions (but > see below). > > Lest there be any doubt, this is clearly spelled out > 1. on the list charters page > 2. in the info majordomo sends upon joining > 3. http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html > 4. http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies > 5. in the weekly posting to this list each Friday or Saturday > > In the past, misinformation has been spread among newbies and others have > used it as ammunition to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to get > together because they'll spread misinformation making more work for the > freebsd-questions volunteers. As a group we have quite a reputation to > live down. So far I think we have shown our worth by just being > ourselves. That was the topic of the "Blind-leading-blind" discussion held on -chat when this list was in its early phases of birth. I personally think that this list has grown pretty well since that time and I am glad to see it. If I am not mistaken that growth has been partially due to some pushing by Sue and a bigger part due to the people here. You have my congrats. :) > > I think that some of the "why" discussions when it comes to disk partioning > > (as opposed to the "how" discussions of how you run disklabel and others) > > might be germane to this list. IMHO of course, and I'll cheerfully be told > > I'm wrong :-) > > That kind of "why" discussion fits in here well. It meets the critereon > of being something that is not done on another list. Our main activity > seems to be learning, rather than asking and telling how to do things. > Your explanations of various topics in the past have been much > appreciated. This is something fundamental. The focus of the other lists are more of a "how". The questions get posed and it is left as an excercise to the reader to figure out the details of the "why". The person that answered just takes forgranted that the person asks knows "why". This is *NOT* a universal statement, but at the least a moderately valid observation. I think that aspect something stands to really separate this group from the rest of the "tech support" groups. The chance to slow down and help someone new figure out what is going on rather than giving them a quick fix and push them along the way. I am still "fresh", I would not quite call myself a newbie anymore, and I am willing to give a why to everything I can. That is also a place for the vets who are lurking in the background to make corrections for the "not-quite-correct-but-almost-there" comments. : ) James Higgins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 21:00:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01239 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:00:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01227 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup513.serv.net [207.207.70.78]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09775; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980616210023.007f6370@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:00:23 -0700 To: Malartre From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35871C17.EB2898B@aei.ca> References: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980616181522.007f0990@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:29 PM 6/16/98 -0400, you wrote: >Argh, Tim you are closed minded. Gee, thanks. Just because I can't stand Vi and don't want to teach myself how to write a 500 page novel using it, I'm closed minded. Hmm, OK, whatever you say. >I'm newbie. I dont think un*x is the solution for a newbie. I'm a newbie to Unix, but not a newbie to computing. I've been into computers for 15 years, and put in enough hours in those 15 years in front of computers to make it more like 30 years. I've also been programming in one form or another for those past 15 years too. So although you may think my opinion is closed-minded, I certainly have earned the right to have it. >But if you want to know un*x, know basic tools common to unix. >Vi is one of the most important, because if someday you go on another >un*x-clone, vi will be there. So will something else, believe me, unless Unix wants to stay back in the 1960's... in which case, I would never use it. Vi is a throwback to an earlier era where the computer didn't do the text editing, a dumb terminal did it, and sent the results back to the computer for processing afterwards. >Its a really good suggestion. So take it yourself - write me a 20 page essay on why you think I should become proficient in Vi... using vi and nothing else to write it. You talk big, prove it yourself. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 21:06:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01955 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01950 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup513.serv.net [207.207.70.78]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA10136; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980616210615.007eae90@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:06:15 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980617114753.27503@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980616181522.007f0990@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> <199806170056.SAA00493@struct.> <3.0.5.32.19980616181522.007f0990@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:47 AM 6/17/98 +1000, you wrote: >Most people don't use vi as their main editor but have some skill with it >to use in an emergency. I won't be pressured into using vi, and nobody >will think me less of a man because of that. By your name, I would guess you were a woman, but who knows ... ;-) >When there's nothing else >around, I can use ed. Why would there be nothing else around? You could stick gunzip and a gzip'ed version of ee on a single floppy disk and take it with you wherever you go, or probably ee or a similar editor would fit on a floppy just fine uncompressed. What everyone's telling me is something like "Maybe someday you'll go blind, so it would do you good to learn braille now, just in case." My reply: Hmmmm... maybe so, but I'm not gonna do it. Actually, maybe I WOULD learn some basic Vi if I didn't feel pressured into it, but I'm feeling a little pressure from the non-newbies in this group. I believe I've insulted one of the original holy Unix commands that has been around since the first days of *nix. Something like saying something nasty about Jesus to a born again christian. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 21:24:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03925 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:24:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03916 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup409.serv.net [207.207.70.10]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA11411; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980616212412.007ee350@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:24:12 -0700 To: Gerald Victor Fontenay , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: re: vi In-Reply-To: <199806170222.TAA28142@libra.sfsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:22 PM 6/16/98 -0700, Gerald Victor Fontenay wrote: >if you do even the smallest amount of administration, you simply need >to know how to use vi..it's not just for emergencies..everyone who uses >a unix system "should" learn atleast the basic commands..this has been >quite the thread in this mailing list..is it really that hard to learn >a few keystrokes? No. The simple fact is, I don't want to right now, and don't yet see the point in doing so. Personally, I believe this thread got heated because I basically insulted an original, holy Unix text editor. Thou shalt not denigrate Vi.. it's in the Unix Bible. So anyway, here are these Unix old-timers hanging around this group for whatever reason (to help out, for amusement purposes watching newbies blunder around, whatever) and along comes this Windows guy who puts down one of the *nix commands that's been around since 1945 or so. How dare he? Thou hath insulted the great Vi. That's how I'm seeing it at this point, anyway. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 22:13:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09131 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:13:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09123 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16930; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:12:47 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617151238.47765@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:12:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: higginsj@iname.com Cc: Nik Clayton , Tim Gerchmez , pirat@prime.oaep.go.th, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD References: <19980617100214.10135@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from James on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:49:44PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:49:44PM -0400, James wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 07:31:52PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:25:38PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > Lest there be any doubt, this is clearly spelled out > > 1. on the list charters page > > 2. in the info majordomo sends upon joining > > 3. http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html > > 4. http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies > > 5. in the weekly posting to this list each Friday or Saturday > > > > In the past, misinformation has been spread among newbies and others have > > used it as ammunition to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to get > > together because they'll spread misinformation making more work for the > > freebsd-questions volunteers. As a group we have quite a reputation to > > live down. So far I think we have shown our worth by just being > > ourselves. > > That was the topic of the "Blind-leading-blind" discussion held on -chat > when this list was in its early phases of birth. I personally think that > this list has grown pretty well since that time and I am glad to see it. > > If I am not mistaken that growth has been partially due to some pushing > by Sue and a bigger part due to the people here. You have my congrats. :) > > > > I think that some of the "why" discussions when it comes to disk partioning > > > (as opposed to the "how" discussions of how you run disklabel and others) > > > might be germane to this list. IMHO of course, and I'll cheerfully be told > > > I'm wrong :-) > > > > That kind of "why" discussion fits in here well. It meets the critereon > > of being something that is not done on another list. Our main activity > > seems to be learning, rather than asking and telling how to do things. > > Your explanations of various topics in the past have been much > > appreciated. > > This is something fundamental. The focus of the other lists are more of a > "how". The questions get posed and it is left as an excercise to the > reader to figure out the details of the "why". The person that answered > just takes forgranted that the person asks knows "why". This is *NOT* > a universal statement, but at the least a moderately valid observation. > > I think that aspect something stands to really separate this group from > the rest of the "tech support" groups. Err, but this one is specifically *not* a "tech support" group. There was a suggestion to start a support group for newbies, in addition to this social discussion group, but so far we have not found enough volunteer supporters of sufficient calibre and commitment to maintain it. Take another look at the charter. Why is it that newbies find it so easy to understand where to draw the line and non-newbies, who have other places to go, keep telling us that our group should be what it's not? Why are newbies so interested in what they can do, what they can share, what they can contribute back to the community, but others keep seeing us solely as dependent people having nothing to offer but gratitude for being saved? We've pulled together our own list of resources, set up web sites and IRC channels, written and reviewed documentation, made new newbies feel welcome among equals, kept largely out of everyone's hair, and given ourselves a place we can feel free to slag vi or confess to using microsoft without feeling like we're on show. We've given valuable advice from a newbies perspective on other projects such as documentation. From time to time we've been observed, studied, forgotten, helped, admonished, praised, guided, called lazy and braindead, and patted on our little backs. We just get on with it. Our list is what it is. Maybe one day that will change, but not in a big hurry, and any change will be brought about by what newbies want, not what we're told to want. There are thirty other lists where we're happy to be told what we want every day. We go there when we want help. This one is ours, to be among peers, to do things, not have things done to us. > The chance to slow down and help > someone new figure out what is going on rather than giving them a quick > fix and push them along the way. > > I am still "fresh", I would not quite call myself a newbie anymore, and I > am willing to give a why to everything I can. That is also a place for > the vets who are lurking in the background to make corrections for the > "not-quite-correct-but-almost-there" comments. : ) Hey, what a great idea! In a few months I won't be a newbie any more but I won't be good enough to advise anyone on my own, certainly not to compete with those in freebsd-questions. So I can hang around here and practise on the newbies, can't hurt much, they're only newbies... try stuff out, rely on a few "vets" to be here to gently correct any instructions that I give that are wrong. A kind of training ground for wannabees to practise on newbies, where any knowledge looks like a lot. OK, that's not what _you_ are proposing, but careful, it's the idea that it could generate. Read the five documents listed above one more time. The list charter is the bottom line. It's quite simple to understand, if you can accept the list for what it is and newbies for what they are. We newbies come here to share and contribute with each other. We discuss FreeBSD because we're interested in it. Others can discuss with us and if they know a bit more, that's great. But it's not the same as support, nor do we have the FreeBSD support team waiting here to correct errors. Look, we all want to help, more than we want to be helped. Especially newbies. Learn _one_ unix command or do _one_ successful installation and you want to teach it to the world. Newbies want to do that more than anyone else! If we see someone who doesn't know something we know, we're dying to show them, but we refrain from showing each other how to do things because of the risks involved and the unwanted burden of having "support" in more than one list. The list charter spells that out. If we newbies are disciplined enough to do our support in the proper place, why give others the thrill of doing it here when we can't? And if others give us technical support here in violation of the list charter, than damn it, we'll do the same. My view is just the view of one newbie (on a bad day). There are a lot of other newbies here who might have different views, and that's a good thing. Personally, in this particular forum I would respect the view of a newbie more than the voice of experience. Newbies generally don't express their views as convincingly and confidently as those with more experience, even when it's their own business. I wish that they would. Remember there's only three sources of authority in here. One is the list charter, one is the postmaster who we seldom hear from, and the third is the combined voices of the newbies. I think it's about time you other newbies felt free to use your authority instead of giving it away by remaining silent. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 23:17:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16246 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16233 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28970; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:24:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980617002430.24289@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:24:30 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Donald Burr , "Stevan S." Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HD running wild References: <199806160711.CAA19407@zoom.bga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Donald Burr on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:20:58AM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Not sure about the cc: to -newbies on this one. For completenesses sake I'm going to leave it in ] On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 03:20:58AM -0700, Donald Burr wrote: > One of hte things FreeBSD is set up to do, by default, is use "cron" to > run special "clean up" type jobs every night. > > There are three jobs that are set up to run. These are: You can see how these are specified by examining the file /etc/crontab, and by examining the crontab(5) manual page. N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 23:17:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16329 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:17:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16317 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:17:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27349; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:11:40 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980617001140.22352@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:11:40 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , mlduke@concentric.net Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Drive Configuration References: <3585EEB2.15EA@concentric.net> <3.0.5.32.19980615211804.007f5b70@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980615211804.007f5b70@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:18:04PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 09:18:04PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 10:04 PM 6/15/98 -0600, you wrote: > >I'm fairly sure, but do not know with _utter certainty_ that a couple > >of serious errors are there. Rule of thumb on swap is 2-4 times RAM, > >but as with all other things in Unix everything "depends" > > This so called "rule of thumb" is actually a rule of bologna. It would > indicate that if you had 512 megs of RAM in your machine, you need a 1 to 2 > gig cache. See the foolishness of this "rule of thumb?" Uh, that's *why* it's a rule of thumb. A quick way of calculating swap that works in most cases. If it worked in all cases it wouldn't be a rule of thumb, it would be an equation :-) Oh, and the last time I checked, wcarchive.cdrom.com (ftp.freebsd.org) with 512MB of memory did have 1GB of swap, split across many disks. I can double check that tomorrow though. N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 23:18:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16484 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:18:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16476 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:18:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28628; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:21:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980617002151.21641@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:21:51 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico References: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <19980617002803.07527@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:34:20PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:34:20PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > (1) My question was so simple I was sure it has been asked before. That being the case, please take the time to use the mailing list archives at and facilities like DejaNews (at . Or there's always the system manual pages. A quick % man sh would show you the information you're looking for in the "Invocation" section. Alternatively, you could look at some existing shell scripts on your system to see if they do it. /etc/rc, /etc/rc.serial and /etc/rc.firewall have examples of examining the positional parameters passed to a script (although, granted, they're not the easiest code to understand). > (2) There are hundreds of questions a day being asked and answered in that > newsgroup (I should know, I was subscribed to it for exactly half a day), > one or two from me a week isn't going to contribute much of anything, > unless they're very esoteric and technical questions that have likely not > been asked before. I don't follow that. If you mean that people ignore the simple questions that are sent to -questions then I have to disagree with you. Any number of people (Doug White, for example, and sometimes even myself) answer questions in there at all levels of experience. There's nothing wrong with asking questions. But please a) Take the five minutes necessary to do some digging on the Internet (if you have a connection you can use) and locally to try and find the answer. b) Use the appropriate forum for your question. Cheers, N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 23:22:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17284 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17279 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:22:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anarchy@crl.com) Received: from crl.crl.com (crl.com [165.113.1.12]) by mail.crl.com (8.8.8/) via SMTP id XAA10410 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:21:25 -0700 (PDT) env-from (anarchy@crl.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:21:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Ben Manes To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616210023.007f6370@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org a meaning less rant... I don't see what all this fuss is over. The first person who asked about vi and started this all, I told to try pico. Ok, so you have to install Pine or whatnot to use it, big deal. Its easy, understandable, and just plane simple. For telneting, I think its perfect, since ever dos powerful dos editor I've used other then IBM's PCTEX v1.0 needs the mouse, which of course is non-existent in telnet. So, an ms-like editor is only server-side friendly, so personally I don't care. Vi definately seems useful to know, and of course can get you out of a few jams. So can edlin, but until recently, I'd forgetten it even existed, and while it might have been quicker to use when I've booted from floppy, its not to hard to quickly find edit somewhere or another and use it. Whatever you like, fine. Who cares? Use vi, use pico, use joe, or whatever you like. You can rant about it as much as you want, I like it, but lets just get down to truth. It doesn't matter what you use, as long as its small enough to be versatile, and is platform-compatable. There's no "right of passage," was there one from edit to notepad, or is learning Microsoft Word neccesary to being a knowledgable Windows user? Eventually your going to learn Word, Microsoft has forced that upon all who enter their abys, but does that mean you teach a newbie word before notepad? I've used computer for my entire sentient life, but when I first ran into vi, I immediatly hit all the keys on the keyboard in an effort to leave that hell whole, and two months later found pico, and never looked back. Vi is fine, I never learned it..but I presume I will eventually..one day when I muster enough courage, or at least am bored enough to. So, if you want to use vi, go ahead. If you don't, fine. Just don't call it some "right of passage" or other such nonsense, cuz it just doesn't matter. Someday we'll all learn. Even those new to Windows are eventually learning that dos is more then an icon on the start menu, and so will those in *nix. Just remember, to each his own, and if people want to learn they will, at their own pace. Trying to force people like cramming food into a baby's mouth...there just going to spit it back up without getting any benefit from your effort... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 23:28:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17869 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.impulse.net (mail.impulse.net [204.188.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA17864 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@merchantsnet.com) Received: (qmail 13938 invoked from network); 17 Jun 1998 06:28:40 -0000 Received: from sb2-83.impulse.net (HELO 708644668) (204.188.6.83) by mail.impulse.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 1998 06:28:40 -0000 From: "Michael P. Sale" To: "Sue Blake" Cc: Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:23:58 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd99b8$82af4a40$5306bccc@708644668> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, into the fray. >Err, but this one is specifically *not* a "tech support" group. >There was a suggestion to start a support group for newbies, in addition >to this social discussion group, but so far we have not found enough >volunteer supporters of sufficient calibre and commitment to maintain it. This is a bad thing, as it would be nice if the support was there for such a group. I'm not sure why it's hard to get support for it though. The questions need to and do get answered somewhere. Why is it not possible for the same people that answer questions in questions to watch a "newbies-questions" list? >Take another look at the charter. Why is it that newbies find it so easy >to understand where to draw the line and non-newbies, who have other >places to go, keep telling us that our group should be what it's not? Because newbies get berrated by you when they do step over that line. The non-newbies are not as worried about needing help later on if they piss someone with some knowledge off. No, you cannot get out of that one with false modesty Sue. :-) >Our list is what it is. Maybe one day that will change, but not in a big >hurry, and any change will be brought about by what newbies want, not >what we're told to want. There are thirty other lists where we're happy >to be told what we want every day. We go there when we want help. This >one is ours, to be among peers, to do things, not have things done to us. Yes, this is a great list for what it is, but untill recently was not a very heavily posted to list. I'm not sure how you define sucess? >OK, that's not what _you_ are proposing, but careful, it's the idea that >it could generate. Read the five documents listed above one more time. >The list charter is the bottom line. It's quite simple to understand, if >you can accept the list for what it is and newbies for what they are. We >newbies come here to share and contribute with each other. We discuss >FreeBSD because we're interested in it. Others can discuss with us and if >they know a bit more, that's great. But it's not the same as support, nor >do we have the FreeBSD support team waiting here to correct errors. I could not agree more. The list charters should be followed. It does not however mean that newbies are not allowed to feel that there should also be a place that has that same sense of belonging and security where they CAN ask questions. I suspect that if this list turned into a place where only newbies answered easy questions with bad anwers, people would learn soon enough to stop asking questions here. It's pretty simple really. >My view is just the view of one newbie (on a bad day). There are a lot of >other newbies here who might have different views, and that's a good >thing. Personally, in this particular forum I would respect the view of a >newbie more than the voice of experience. Newbies generally don't express >their views as convincingly and confidently as those with more >experience, even when it's their own business. I wish that they would. Be careful what you wish for. > >Remember there's only three sources of authority in here. One is the list >charter, one is the postmaster who we seldom hear from, and the third is >the combined voices of the newbies. I think it's about time you other >newbies felt free to use your authority instead of giving it away by >remaining silent. Does this mean you are not the "moderator" anymore? I seem to recall you exerting some authority as the moderator at one time. I don't know if I have authority now, but I sure don't feel silent. :-) Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 16 23:47:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19857 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19842 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:47:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bkogawa@primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26538; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:47:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip206.sjc.primenet.com(206.165.96.206), claiming to be "foo.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd026515; Tue Jun 16 23:47:08 1998 Received: from localhost (bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA12413; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:48:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: foo.primenet.com: bkogawa owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:48:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" To: Tim Gerchmez cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 12:28 AM 6/17/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > I appreciate your attitude on this, but: > > (1) My question was so simple I was sure it has been asked before. Unfortnately, this is the #1 reasons that people on non-questions mailing lists WANT people to send questions to questions. If you have unusual questions which you are certain have never been asked before, there are plenty of places to ask. Questions, ultimately, is a place for "run-of-the-mill" questions, not "mind-benders". Easily 50% (and my best guess is more like 80%) of the questions asked on questions have been asked before, in some form or another. > (2) There are hundreds of questions a day being asked and answered in that > newsgroup (I should know, I was subscribed to it for exactly half a day), > one or two from me a week isn't going to contribute much of anything, > unless they're very esoteric and technical questions that have likely not > been asked before. This is not a problem. The folks on questions frequently answer questions with CCs to the questioner, which edifies both the original supplicant (even those who are not subscribed to questions) and the adoring masses (including those who adore from afar, via the mailing list archives). [...] > >Asking a question, any question, in freebsd-questions is making a > >contribution back to the community. which is why this is true. bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 00:47:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26969 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:47:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26961 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:47:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17291; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:47:18 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617174714.48555@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:47:15 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Michael P. Sale" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD References: <01bd99b8$82af4a40$5306bccc@708644668> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <01bd99b8$82af4a40$5306bccc@708644668>; from Michael P. Sale on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:23:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:23:58PM -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: > Well, into the fray. > > >Err, but this one is specifically *not* a "tech support" group. > >There was a suggestion to start a support group for newbies, in addition > >to this social discussion group, but so far we have not found enough > >volunteer supporters of sufficient calibre and commitment to maintain it. > > This is a bad thing, as it would be nice if the support was there for such a > group. I'm not sure why it's hard to get support for it though. The > questions need to and do get answered somewhere. Why is it not possible for > the same people that answer questions in questions to watch a > "newbies-questions" list? Why would they want to watch two lists when they believe they are doing an adequate job in the one that exists. They won't be paid overtime. And for that matter, why should we have to look in two places for answers. There is no clear distinction between newbies level questions and more difficult questions, so we'd be looking all over. Personally, I'd love to have a newbies questions list where I could answer questions as soon as I read the man page, but I can't see how it could happen without a lot of careful planning and a huge amount of input from non-newbies. > >Take another look at the charter. Why is it that newbies find it so easy > >to understand where to draw the line and non-newbies, who have other > >places to go, keep telling us that our group should be what it's not? > > Because newbies get berrated by you when they do step over that line. The > non-newbies are not as worried about needing help later on if they piss > someone with some knowledge off. > > No, you cannot get out of that one with false modesty Sue. :-) I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. When newbies ask a question thinking this is the right place, I explain that it's -questions they want. When they do it a second time I get persistent. When non-newbies horn in I tell them to piss off. I have invited others to shepherd people to questions if they seem to misunderstand, and that is posted here every week. > >Our list is what it is. Maybe one day that will change, but not in a big > >hurry, and any change will be brought about by what newbies want, not > >what we're told to want. There are thirty other lists where we're happy > >to be told what we want every day. We go there when we want help. This > >one is ours, to be among peers, to do things, not have things done to us. > > Yes, this is a great list for what it is, but untill recently was not a very > heavily posted to list. I'm not sure how you define sucess? I'm not too worried about success. When the advocacy group started this one dried up, not that it was huge before, but there was a definite drift to -advocacy since that's what we'd been talking about a lot here. If people want to use this list they will. If they don't it'll fade into a corner and die some time. I'm not into measuring. What I do regard as successful is the things we've achieved through meeting each other here, rather than rating the list itself. It has given some of us a chance to be active and to see other newbies being active, instead of always passive. Not everyone regards that as an achievement. Hell, I regard remembering how to use chmod a big acheivement, but you don't have to :-) > >OK, that's not what _you_ are proposing, but careful, it's the idea that > >it could generate. Read the five documents listed above one more time. > >The list charter is the bottom line. It's quite simple to understand, if > >you can accept the list for what it is and newbies for what they are. We > >newbies come here to share and contribute with each other. We discuss > >FreeBSD because we're interested in it. Others can discuss with us and if > >they know a bit more, that's great. But it's not the same as support, nor > >do we have the FreeBSD support team waiting here to correct errors. > > I could not agree more. The list charters should be followed. It does not > however mean that newbies are not allowed to feel that there should also be > a place that has that same sense of belonging and security where they CAN > ask questions. Fine. Create one. > I suspect that if this list turned into a place where only newbies answered > easy questions with bad anwers, people would learn soon enough to stop > asking questions here. It's pretty simple really. They wouldn't get a chance. The place would be full of ex-newbies answering easy questions with bad answers and intimidating the newbies who'd otherwise have a go :-) And some people in -questions and elsewhere would go back to spreading the belief that every newbie is a braindead sloth who wants personal hand-holding and just makes more work for everyone else by spreading misinformation, a liability who doesn't deserve any consideration because they'll never be bothered to help themselves. Go right ahead, prove it :-) > >My view is just the view of one newbie (on a bad day). There are a lot of > >other newbies here who might have different views, and that's a good > >thing. Personally, in this particular forum I would respect the view of a > >newbie more than the voice of experience. Newbies generally don't express > >their views as convincingly and confidently as those with more > >experience, even when it's their own business. I wish that they would. > > Be careful what you wish for. I am always careful what I wish for. Wishes are what keep us trying. Today I am very trying. > >Remember there's only three sources of authority in here. One is the list > >charter, one is the postmaster who we seldom hear from, and the third is > >the combined voices of the newbies. I think it's about time you other > >newbies felt free to use your authority instead of giving it away by > >remaining silent. > > Does this mean you are not the "moderator" anymore? I seem to recall you > exerting some authority as the moderator at one time. I thought I cleared that up ages ago. This list is unmoderated, but it is facilitated to some extent because there are things that newbies need to be advised on that are not support, like who does the web pages or how come there's a mailing list for hacking. In other forums the term moderator is used with a different meaning and one day I picked the wrong word. I just happen to know more than most newbies about email, I've been around a while, and I don't mind a bit of dirty work. Stick your neck out among newbies and you get a stream of personal email because they don't know how to use group-reply yet or think they're the only person in the world in their situation and they'll be laughed at. Call that job what you will. As for authority, whatever authority I may or may not be believed to have is irrelevant. I will use everything I can grab to put non-newbies in their place when their behaviour threatens to usurp the authority of the newbie members of this list. If that makes me a bitch I don't care. We've got no other place to call our own. If newbies get caught in the cross fire maybe that'll give them the impetus to stand up for themselves here, and eventually hold their own as equal members of the community in other groups, regardless of their current technical experience. If we don't have confidence in ourselves and each other as newbies, who the hell will. > I don't know if I have authority now, but I sure don't feel silent. :-) Anyone can come in here, or anywhere else, and puff out their chest. If they are believed and followed they'll get away with it, at least until someone else turns up with tastier treats for the adoring crowd. There is no real authority anywhere. You get to play at authority by assuming it. The more naive people around the easier it is to get away with. Take it too far and someone will push you out from below. In other lists everyone has enough self-confidence to simply ignore any such attempts. Not here. But for respect, you need to actually do something that others appreciate. These roads are all open to everyone, newbies included. It's just that newbies too often assume that real authority exists and that it is the people in authority who take all responsibility for providing services. FreeBSD has no such structure. If you want something you do it yourself and then share it with your peers. That's all there is, and we made a whole community out of it. Newbies are just starting to find a warm place in that community, because of what they can do, not because of what they can take. I don't like always being defined in terms of what others have to do for me, and I suspect other newbies feel the same. Here we can be workers and givers too, so long as we never become passive wimps by relinquishing the authority and responsibility we have over ourselves. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 01:00:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28565 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA28519 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17324; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:00:16 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617180012.64598@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:00:12 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nik Clayton Cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico References: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <19980617002803.07527@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> <19980617002151.21641@nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980617002151.21641@nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:21:51AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:21:51AM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:34:20PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > (1) My question was so simple I was sure it has been asked before. > > That being the case, please take the time to use the mailing list archives > at and facilities like DejaNews (at > . > > Or there's always the system manual pages. A quick > > % man sh > > would show you the information you're looking for in the "Invocation" > section. Of course, the "Invocation" section! Jeez, I'd never have thought of that word, glad you mentioned it :-) > Alternatively, you could look at some existing shell scripts on your > system to see if they do it. /etc/rc, /etc/rc.serial and /etc/rc.firewall > have examples of examining the positional parameters passed to a script > (although, granted, they're not the easiest code to understand). "positional parameters"? I reckon it'd be much easier to get info out of man pages if some of these words were more familiar, and I guess that sort of grows on you after doing battle with man pages for a while. There isn't a glossary anywhere, is there? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 04:51:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04057 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 04:51:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ccr.ntu.ac.uk (ccr.ntu.ac.uk [152.71.25.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03985 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 04:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim.parkinson@ccr.ntu.ac.uk) Received: from stimpy (152.71.25.146) by ccr.ntu.ac.uk (Rockliffe SMTPRA 1.2.2) with SMTP id ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:51:10 +0000 From: "Tim Parkinson" To: Subject: Horrible things, NIC's Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:51:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01bd99e6$357638f0$92194798@stimpy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Harumph, I just went out and bought a shiny new NE2000 compatible (read: cheap) to go alongside the one in my FreeBSD gateway, and replace the 3Com 3c509 that had been giving a bit of jip recently. I rolled up a nice new kernel, changed the startup stuff in /etc/rc.conf and rebooted -Aaaagh, complete spasms. Ifconfig refused to add the IP addresses and various other scary problems related to that. Finally, I have ifconfig adding the IP's but still the *naughty word-ing* thing is having problems. Grrr, I'm not happy. Note, this isn't a question. I just wanted to vent a little frustration at being a newbie and not being able to work out what is wrong! Still, I guess this is the best way to learn, have something fall over and have to get your hands dirty and fix it. :( ---------------------------------------------- Tim Parkinson -Teaching Company Associate Nottingham Trent University & Clerical Gas Ltd Tel: 0115 9783677 Fax: 0115 9706977 tim.parkinson@ccr.ntu.ac.uk tim@gubbins.ml.org -Home To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 08:29:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08547 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from silk.net (music.silk.net [206.12.206.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08529 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gjukema@teamsoftech.com) Received: from geoff (kel135.silk.net [204.244.76.135]) by silk.net (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id IAA18534; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980617083733.007bebe0@silk.net> X-Sender: gjukema@silk.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:37:33 -0700 To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Geoff Jukema Subject: Re: X & kde : lovin it! Cc: "Marcel Mason" In-Reply-To: <002e01bd997f$c878d3e0$c62ff7c7@morrigan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Makes me happier still, there seem to be a fairly large number of {k}app's >available and I still *do* need to get some regular work done. > don't we all! Maybe i should have mensioned my first mistake ; i went to a mirror site of kde to retrieve the binaries, downloaded and installed the 4 files, (tried) to run it. 'ELF' binary format not recognized. Looks like i installed a linux version, which installed quite a number of files on my '/' filesystem. I couldn't even update my locate database as i was now out of space in this filesystem. Got most of it cleaned up now, and it looks like i'm in order. The point is, if you want to download packages specific to FreeBSD, trust the FreeBSD website. Geoff. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 08:48:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12201 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12194 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05033 for newbies@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:48:06 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806171548.IAA05033@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:15:22 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >>Unix is user friendly. It's just not beginner friendly. Quite. It was, after all, (originally) written by its (original) users. >Unix isn't a cult or a fraternity with rites of passage, is it? I could >have sworn it was an operating system. Well, it is a (family of) operating system(s)... but there's more to it than that: in particular, it was designed and subsequently evolved from efforts by people with particular approaches to doing things. This is one of the reasons that -- historically -- UNIX-oriented tools have tended to be fairly special-purpose and (comparatively) small, vs. monolithic creatures that sing, dance, chew bubble-gum, walk a tightrope, while polishing your shoes and whistling a Bach sonata. For further information on the kinds of approaches, as well as people and events, involved in this, I recommend the following books: Kernighan & Pike, _The UNIX Programming Environment_ (Prentice Hall). A bit dated by now, and has an AT&T perspective on a few things (which ought not be a surprise), but a true classic. Has an interesting self-reference, which I leave the interested reader to find. Salus. _A Quarter Century of Unix_ (Addison Wesley). More about people & events (vs. approaches to solving problems). Peter Salus is somewhat of a raconteur... and tells stories well. david (who has, in fact, used Teletype model 33 KSRs -- some with paper tape) -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 09:15:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16877 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16864 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05162 for newbies@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806171614.JAA05162@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: re: vi Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:24:12 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >No. The simple fact is, I don't want to right now, and don't yet see the >point in doing so. Personally, I believe this thread got heated because I >basically insulted an original, holy Unix text editor.... Uhhmmm.... :-) No. vi isn't "original". It was written (essentially) by Bill Joy, while he was at UC Berkeley, as a "glass TTY" front-end for ex. I suspect that you don't really want to think too hard about what Ken, Dennis, Brian, Joe, Rob, & the rest of the Bell Labs gang used to actually write the original code.... As for UNIX being "stuck in the 1960s"... well, please note that the UNIX "epoch" -- time zero, so to speak -- is midnight (0000 hrs.) 01 January, 1970 GMT ("UTC" for folks less old-fashioned than I). :-), david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 10:12:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25356 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papaya.mail.easynet.net (papaya.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA25348 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:12:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@boothman.easynet.co.uk) Received: (qmail 9669 invoked from network); 17 Jun 1998 17:11:44 -0000 Received: from boothman.easynet.co.uk (194.154.100.117) by papaya.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 1998 17:11:44 -0000 Received: by Boothman.easynet.co.uk (VPOP3 - Unregistered) with SMTP; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:11:32 +0100 Message-ID: <3587F470.1228F1D8@boothman.easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:53:04 +0100 From: Andrew Boothman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vi References: <3.0.5.32.19980616212412.007ee350@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: VPOP3 V1.2.0c Unregistered Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim, I think you're being a bit harsh here. There are without doubt those who would run you over in the street for insulting vi and its ilk, but from what people have said here I do not believe anybody on this list fits into that category. Some are simply of the opinion that a bit of knowledge of vi would be a good thing, because it is installed on every UNIX machine since time began, and you wouldn't need to carry anything around on a floppy. I for one can say that Sun with their whizzy SunOS/Openwindows hybrid called Solaris, that comes with all sorts of GUI administration tools, still include vi on their system administrators course because it is so widely used. (Needless to say it wasn't me who went on the course :-( But I spoke to the man that did) Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > No. The simple fact is, I don't want to right now, and don't yet see the > point in doing so. Personally, I believe this thread got heated because I > basically insulted an original, holy Unix text editor. Thou shalt not > denigrate Vi.. it's in the Unix Bible. So anyway, here are these Unix > old-timers hanging around this group for whatever reason (to help out, for > amusement purposes watching newbies blunder around, whatever) and along > comes this Windows guy who puts down one of the *nix commands that's been > around since 1945 or so. How dare he? Thou hath insulted the great Vi. > That's how I'm seeing it at this point, anyway. -- Andrew Boothman : andrew@boothman.easynet.co.uk (http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~boothman/andrew/) "Do geography teachers eat Water Table biscuits?" - Me To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 10:33:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28539 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28526 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-02.aei.ca [206.186.205.152]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06926; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3587FD9F.1AC89C03@aei.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:32:15 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <3.0.5.32.19980615181815.007f16b0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980616181522.007f0990@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980616210023.007f6370@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > At 09:29 PM 6/16/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >Argh, Tim you are closed minded. > > Gee, thanks. Just because I can't stand Vi and don't want to teach myself > how to write a 500 page novel using it, I'm closed minded. Hmm, OK, > whatever you say. > > >I'm newbie. I dont think un*x is the solution for a newbie. > > I'm a newbie to Unix, but not a newbie to computing. I've been into > computers for 15 years, and put in enough hours in those 15 years in front > of computers to make it more like 30 years. I've also been programming in > one form or another for those past 15 years too. So although you may think > my opinion is closed-minded, I certainly have earned the right to have it. > > >But if you want to know un*x, know basic tools common to unix. > >Vi is one of the most important, because if someday you go on another > >un*x-clone, vi will be there. > > So will something else, believe me, unless Unix wants to stay back in the > 1960's... in which case, I would never use it. Vi is a throwback to an > earlier era where the computer didn't do the text editing, a dumb terminal > did it, and sent the results back to the computer for processing afterwards. > > >Its a really good suggestion. > > So take it yourself - write me a 20 page essay on why you think I should > become proficient in Vi... using vi and nothing else to write it. You talk > big, prove it yourself. > Well, dont talk about it if you dont like it. Its simply than its a tool. Notice than Unix himself cannot evoluate the way you want it because Unix is not Un*x. FreeBSD is Un*x. I'm not a unix guru, I dont think vi is beautiful or than its from the past. i just think than vi is evrywhere. Like Win95 hehehe. Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 12:33:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18795 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18786 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anarchy@crl.com) Received: from crl.crl.com (crl.com [165.113.1.12]) by mail.crl.com (8.8.8/) via SMTP id MAA25948 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:14:34 -0700 (PDT) env-from (anarchy@crl.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:14:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Ben Manes To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: unix vs WinNT Server In-Reply-To: <000a01bd99e6$357638f0$92194798@stimpy> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's a link to a paper I found, quite good... http://www.kirch.net/unix-nt.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 12:35:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19335 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.impulse.net (mail.impulse.net [204.188.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA19305 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:35:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@merchantsnet.com) Received: (qmail 26855 invoked from network); 17 Jun 1998 19:35:00 -0000 Received: from sb1-60.impulse.net (HELO 708644668) (204.188.6.60) by mail.impulse.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 1998 19:35:00 -0000 From: "Michael P. Sale" To: "Sue Blake" Cc: Subject: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:30:09 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9a26$571e9a20$3c06bccc@708644668> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Why would they want to watch two lists when they believe they are doing >an adequate job in the one that exists. The problem I believe lies in the fact that they *believe* that questions is enough. I personally do not believe that it is. >They won't be paid overtime. As I said, the questions are allready being answered somewhere. Or is it just that everyone believes that if there was a newbies-questions list that newbies would actually start asking "newbie" questions. There is only overtime if you believe the latter. If you believe the latter, then there is a deficency. >And for that matter, why should we have to look in two places for answers. I have a hard time believing you even wrote that. When I look for information pertaining to this OS, I look in so many different places it's not even funny. It is usually a fairly long search as well. I believe that such a group would actually cut down on the search time for such answers. >There is no clear distinction between newbies level questions and more >difficult questions, so we'd be looking all over. I completely disagree. If that were true, one would only need to write one book per OS and be done with it. "How do I mount a drive" and "my server just blew up after doing an upgrade" are pretty different questions requireing different levels of expertise. I will agree that you may be right in the fact that newbie users may have a tough time differentiating between the two. >I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. When newbies ask a >question thinking this is the right place, I explain that it's -questions >they want. When they do it a second time I get persistent. When >non-newbies horn in I tell them to piss off. I have invited others to >shepherd people to questions if they seem to misunderstand, and that is >posted here every week. What I am getting at is that you tend to berrate people. It's pretty simple. You do it with :-), but you still do it. There is a reason that everyone specifically names you when they think they are asking a question. If the list were really just the list, then they would be worried about getting grief from the list, not you. >I'm not too worried about success. When the advocacy group started this >one dried up, not that it was huge before, but there was a definite drift >to -advocacy since that's what we'd been talking about a lot here. I don't believe that you are not worried about sucess. Everytime you post to this group, you show that you want this group to be sucessfull at it's charter. (That's a compliment in case you missed it among the other muck) > >If people want to use this list they will. If they don't it'll fade into >a corner and die some time. I'm not into measuring. What I do regard as >successful is the things we've achieved through meeting each other here, >rather than rating the list itself. It has given some of us a chance to >be active and to see other newbies being active, instead of always >passive. >Not everyone regards that as an achievement. Hell, I regard remembering >how to use chmod a big acheivement, but you don't have to :-) If that's how you define a success, then this list has been successfull so far. I believe that getting newbies involved in the other aspects of FreeBSD is important too, I just think that there should be more resources for us as well. >Fine. Create one. Sue, I think you miss a point that has not been spoken. I am a FreeBSD newbie, not an advocate. (I don't know enough about the darn thing to be an advocate.) If as a newbie, I have to expend the energy to create something that does not exist so I can figure out how much I really like an OS, I have to wonder wether or not it's worth it. I have to run a business and be a geek (18 hr a day job already) and now you want me to wade into unfamiliar waters and wrassle with forces that have clearly not seen the same issues I do. I'll get right on that. >They wouldn't get a chance. The place would be full of ex-newbies >answering easy questions with bad answers and intimidating the newbies >who'd otherwise have a go :-) Again, then people would stop asking questions on such a list. I'm not sure how much more you want me to prove a point. >And some people in -questions and elsewhere would go back to spreading >the belief that every newbie is a braindead sloth who wants personal >hand-holding and just makes more work for everyone else by spreading >misinformation, a liability who doesn't deserve any consideration because >they'll never be bothered to help themselves. Go right ahead, prove it :-) This is a problem with ANYTHING technical and is not a FreeBSD only issue. Some newbies are such creatures while others are not. The truth is that FreeBSD is eons behind other OS's in being a good tool for newbies. More specifically unix newbies. As long as the documentation is sparse and the support is not aimed towards such a group, it will stay that way. Since I don't see too many books on FreeBSD out there I think that the deficency needs to be made up for with a newbies-questions group. >I am always careful what I wish for. Wishes are what keep us trying. >Today I am very trying. Today I am being very trying. :-) >I thought I cleared that up ages ago. This list is unmoderated, but it is >facilitated to some extent because there are things that newbies need to >be advised on that are not support, like who does the web pages or how >come there's a mailing list for hacking. In other forums the term >moderator is used with a different meaning and one day I picked the wrong >word. I just happen to know more than most newbies about email, I've been >around a while, and I don't mind a bit of dirty work. Stick your neck out >among newbies and you get a stream of personal email because they don't >know how to use group-reply yet or think they're the only person in the >world in their situation and they'll be laughed at. Call that job what >you will. Consider it settled. > >As for authority, whatever authority I may or may not be believed to have >is irrelevant. I will use everything I can grab to put non-newbies in >their place when their behaviour threatens to usurp the authority of the >newbie members of this list. Consider it back to unsettled. You can't have it both ways and think someones not going to say something. The autority you wield is inherent in the fact that you have more knowledge than most FreeBSD newbies and (from what I gather) that you were essentially the driving force behind this list. ****I think you should either acknowledge the authority and use it or let it be.**** Again, I really like the list the way it is and have said so more than once. The issue for me is not your managing the list, but the need for another list for newbie questions. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 12:41:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20785 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20775 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05868 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:41:09 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806171941.MAA05868@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:06:15 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >Why would there be nothing else around? You could stick gunzip and a >gzip'ed version of ee on a single floppy disk and take it with you wherever >you go, or probably ee or a similar editor would fit on a floppy just fine >uncompressed. Because you're working on a system that doesn't *have* a floppy drive (such as my Sun 3/60). Or it has one, but it's broken. Or the device driver for the floppy is acting weird. (Floppies are actually rather unnatural I/O devices to some of us....) Maybe that's OK, if you're *always* going to be using a set of homogeneous systems... but that's not the reality many of us live in. If you want to thus restrict yourself, go ahead... but I hate to see someone do something like that without at least being aware of some consequences that, in my experience, are likely to be encountered. Given the information, you're free to make any decision you want. Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 13:27:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28937 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28901 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28186; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:50:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980617205005.51409@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:50:05 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Sue Blake , Nik Clayton Cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico References: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <19980617002803.07527@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> <19980617002151.21641@nothing-going-on.org> <19980617180012.64598@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980617180012.64598@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:00:12PM +1000 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:00:12PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > would show you the information you're looking for in the "Invocation" > > section. > > Of course, the "Invocation" section! Jeez, I'd never have thought of that > word, glad you mentioned it :-) Well, it's only 2 and a half (or thereabouts) pages in on a 25 line display :-) And, when you think about it, you only pass the parameters when you 'invoke' the program. > > Alternatively, you could look at some existing shell scripts on your > > system to see if they do it. /etc/rc, /etc/rc.serial and /etc/rc.firewall > > have examples of examining the positional parameters passed to a script > > (although, granted, they're not the easiest code to understand). > > "positional parameters"? I reckon it'd be much easier to get info out of > man pages if some of these words were more familiar, and I guess that > sort of grows on you after doing battle with man pages for a while. What would be a more familiar term? As far as I can tell, any term you use for them is going to carry overtones of where ever you first learned the term. With my "Hmm, that's interesting" hat on, I notice that Tim's original message didn't name (exactly) what he was talking. He said > What's the equivalent in Unix of %1, %2, etc in a DOS batch file? At the risk of misrepresenting Tim's position, if he can't phrase what he's looking for in a meaningful fashion (Tim: I mean that as "You don't know the meaning of those terms" not "You're a blithering idiot", please don't take offence) then finding the answer is going to be difficult no matter what. Keep in mind that the system manual pages are not meant to be tutorials, they're references. The comp.unix.shell FAQ would probably have been more useful. [ And to second guess your next question "How did you know the newsgroup existed?" -- I didn't. I asked my newsreader for all newsgroups that contained the word "shell" in the name, just on the off chance. ] > There isn't a glossary anywhere, is there? Probably, but you'll need to shell[1] out some money. I would imagine that O'Reilly do a decent shell programming book which probably has a glossary. N [1] OK, I know, it was a very bad joke. Sorry. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 13:56:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04795 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.lcs.mit.edu (mercury.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04788; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yxw@mercury.lcs.mit.edu) Received: from cordelia.lcs.mit.edu (cordelia.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.55]) by mercury.lcs.mit.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA05710; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35882D73.794BDF32@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:56:19 +0000 From: Xiaowei Yang Organization: MIT LCS X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, jraynard@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi there, I have a question about the pkg_add. I downloaded a package libwww5.1m and being root, pkg_added it. However, the binary turned out to be in the mode that could only be accessed by root. Does anyone know how to fix it? Thanks, -- Xiaowei P.S. I am not in the mailing list. Please reply to me. Thanks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 15:26:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22378 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:26:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-160.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22363 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA02372; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:25:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:25:46 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Tim Gerchmez cc: Gerald Victor Fontenay , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: re: vi In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616212412.007ee350@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 07:22 PM 6/16/98 -0700, Gerald Victor Fontenay wrote: > >if you do even the smallest amount of administration, you simply need > >to know how to use vi..it's not just for emergencies..everyone who uses > >a unix system "should" learn atleast the basic commands..this has been > >quite the thread in this mailing list..is it really that hard to learn > >a few keystrokes? > > No. The simple fact is, I don't want to right now, and don't yet see the > point in doing so. Personally, I believe this thread got heated because I > basically insulted an original, holy Unix text editor. Thou shalt not > denigrate Vi.. it's in the Unix Bible. So anyway, here are these Unix I don'thave it but I think the Linux Bible has a chapter on Vi. Or at least a copy of the man page. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 16:05:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27490 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-6.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27477 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:04:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02440; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:04:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:04:11 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Sue Blake cc: "Michael P. Sale" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD In-Reply-To: <19980617174714.48555@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 11:23:58PM -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: > > Well, into the fray. > > > > >Err, but this one is specifically *not* a "tech support" group. > > >There was a suggestion to start a support group for newbies, in addition > > >to this social discussion group, but so far we have not found enough > > >volunteer supporters of sufficient calibre and commitment to maintain it. > > > > This is a bad thing, as it would be nice if the support was there for such a > > group. I'm not sure why it's hard to get support for it though. The > > questions need to and do get answered somewhere. Why is it not possible for > > the same people that answer questions in questions to watch a > > "newbies-questions" list? > > Why would they want to watch two lists when they believe they are doing > an adequate job in the one that exists. They won't be paid overtime. And > for that matter, why should we have to look in two places for answers. > There is no clear distinction between newbies level questions and more > difficult questions, so we'd be looking all over. > I also recall a discussion that there is already a confusing line beteween questions that should be give in -questions and -hackers. Some of the more advanced questions that should be posted in -hackers are bing placed in -questions. The thought was that a -newbies-questions would further the mess. I believe that this is a valid point. General questions getting placed in one list is a good point, then more advanced questions or more subsystem specific questions are delegated out to the others like -hackers -current, -stable, -multimedia etc... I personally think that this is a good model. This group and -chat from my view are meant to be basically the same only this one has a newbie "flavor" to it where -chat is more toward the person that has been following the community for a while. That is my viewpoint and if I am wrong redirect me to the charter. > Personally, I'd love to have a newbies questions list where I could > answer questions as soon as I read the man page, but I can't see how it > could happen without a lot of careful planning and a huge amount of input > from non-newbies. > > > >Take another look at the charter. Why is it that newbies find it so easy > > >to understand where to draw the line and non-newbies, who have other > > >places to go, keep telling us that our group should be what it's not? > > > > Because newbies get berrated by you when they do step over that line. The > > non-newbies are not as worried about needing help later on if they piss > > someone with some knowledge off. > > > > No, you cannot get out of that one with false modesty Sue. :-) > > I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. When newbies ask a > question thinking this is the right place, I explain that it's -questions > they want. When they do it a second time I get persistent. When > non-newbies horn in I tell them to piss off. I have invited others to > shepherd people to questions if they seem to misunderstand, and that is > posted here every week. Who tells them they should listen to being told to piss off? > > >Our list is what it is. Maybe one day that will change, but not in a big > > >hurry, and any change will be brought about by what newbies want, not > > >what we're told to want. There are thirty other lists where we're happy > > >to be told what we want every day. We go there when we want help. This > > >one is ours, to be among peers, to do things, not have things done to us. > > > > Yes, this is a great list for what it is, but untill recently was not a very > > heavily posted to list. I'm not sure how you define sucess? > > I'm not too worried about success. When the advocacy group started this > one dried up, not that it was huge before, but there was a definite drift > to -advocacy since that's what we'd been talking about a lot here. > > If people want to use this list they will. If they don't it'll fade into > a corner and die some time. I'm not into measuring. What I do regard as > successful is the things we've achieved through meeting each other here, > rather than rating the list itself. It has given some of us a chance to > be active and to see other newbies being active, instead of always passive. > Not everyone regards that as an achievement. Hell, I regard remembering > how to use chmod a big acheivement, but you don't have to :-) Personally, my biggest newbie achievement was when I got my soundcard and MP3 player to work. : ) > > >OK, that's not what _you_ are proposing, but careful, it's the idea that > > >it could generate. Read the five documents listed above one more time. > > >The list charter is the bottom line. It's quite simple to understand, if > > >you can accept the list for what it is and newbies for what they are. We > > >newbies come here to share and contribute with each other. We discuss > > >FreeBSD because we're interested in it. Others can discuss with us and if > > >they know a bit more, that's great. But it's not the same as support, nor > > >do we have the FreeBSD support team waiting here to correct errors. > > > > I could not agree more. The list charters should be followed. It does not > > however mean that newbies are not allowed to feel that there should also be > > a place that has that same sense of belonging and security where they CAN > > ask questions. > > Fine. Create one. > > > I suspect that if this list turned into a place where only newbies answered > > easy questions with bad anwers, people would learn soon enough to stop > > asking questions here. It's pretty simple really. > > They wouldn't get a chance. The place would be full of ex-newbies > answering easy questions with bad answers and intimidating the newbies > who'd otherwise have a go :-) > > And some people in -questions and elsewhere would go back to spreading > the belief that every newbie is a braindead sloth who wants personal > hand-holding and just makes more work for everyone else by spreading > misinformation, a liability who doesn't deserve any consideration because > they'll never be bothered to help themselves. Go right ahead, prove it :-) I never got the impression that newbies are viewed as braindead sloths who want handholding. You also must admit that there ARE those that will never bother to help themselves. They just install UNIX to be cool and to say that they did. They are not seeking to gain anything from it. > > >Remember there's only three sources of authority in here. One is the list > > >charter, one is the postmaster who we seldom hear from, and the third is > > >the combined voices of the newbies. I think it's about time you other > > >newbies felt free to use your authority instead of giving it away by > > >remaining silent. > > > > Does this mean you are not the "moderator" anymore? I seem to recall you > > exerting some authority as the moderator at one time. > > I thought I cleared that up ages ago. This list is unmoderated, but it is > facilitated to some extent because there are things that newbies need to > be advised on that are not support, like who does the web pages or how > come there's a mailing list for hacking. In other forums the term > moderator is used with a different meaning and one day I picked the wrong > word. I just happen to know more than most newbies about email, I've been > around a while, and I don't mind a bit of dirty work. Stick your neck out > among newbies and you get a stream of personal email because they don't > know how to use group-reply yet or think they're the only person in the > world in their situation and they'll be laughed at. Call that job what > you will. > > As for authority, whatever authority I may or may not be believed to have > is irrelevant. I will use everything I can grab to put non-newbies in > their place when their behaviour threatens to usurp the authority of the > newbie members of this list. If that makes me a bitch I don't care. We've > got no other place to call our own. If newbies get caught in the cross > fire maybe that'll give them the impetus to stand up for themselves here, > and eventually hold their own as equal members of the community in other > groups, regardless of their current technical experience. If we don't > have confidence in ourselves and each other as newbies, who the hell will. Why is it you consistently address non-newbies as if they are evil. Like it or not Sue, I would classify you, based on how I have seen you demonstrate you knowledge in the lists, as more of a non newbie. Given, I am not a large poster myself, I DO read the lists. : ) /* Other comments snipped */ James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 16:06:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27787 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cc.dixie.edu (cc.dixie.edu [144.38.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA27771 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:06:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kerby@bengali.npl.com) Received: from [38.241.82.72] by cc.dixie.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/18Jan96-0134PM) id AA09597; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:09:13 -0600 Message-Id: <00a301bd9a44$aef9c4e0$4852f126@kellogg> Reply-To: "Kerby Smith" From: "Kerby Smith" To: Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:30:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org heh, i was just kinda in awe of this conversation... kinda agreeing with Tim, cause i personally use pico on the shell accounts i have (only cause i dont know how to use vi), but i do agree that it is smart to know it. im totally new to FreeBSD, so dont listen to me lol, but i went to change my user info on one of my shell accounts, and was shocked when i typed chsh and it threw me into vi. heh, i didnt even know how to get out of it. so i do with i knew it, and i kinda plan on learning it. just thought id throw that in! kerby :) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Kerby Smith kerby@bengali.npl.com I am Guilty of Murder... Blame me for the death of Jesus Christ, because it was for my sins that he was tortured and crucified! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Tim Gerchmez To: Malartre Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 11:11 PM Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' >At 09:29 PM 6/16/98 -0400, you wrote: > >>Argh, Tim you are closed minded. > >Gee, thanks. Just because I can't stand Vi and don't want to teach myself >how to write a 500 page novel using it, I'm closed minded. Hmm, OK, >whatever you say. > >>I'm newbie. I dont think un*x is the solution for a newbie. > >I'm a newbie to Unix, but not a newbie to computing. I've been into >computers for 15 years, and put in enough hours in those 15 years in front >of computers to make it more like 30 years. I've also been programming in >one form or another for those past 15 years too. So although you may think >my opinion is closed-minded, I certainly have earned the right to have it. > >>But if you want to know un*x, know basic tools common to unix. >>Vi is one of the most important, because if someday you go on another >>un*x-clone, vi will be there. > >So will something else, believe me, unless Unix wants to stay back in the >1960's... in which case, I would never use it. Vi is a throwback to an >earlier era where the computer didn't do the text editing, a dumb terminal >did it, and sent the results back to the computer for processing afterwards. > >>Its a really good suggestion. > >So take it yourself - write me a 20 page essay on why you think I should >become proficient in Vi... using vi and nothing else to write it. You talk >big, prove it yourself. > > >-- >My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - >lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 17:00:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08419 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08328 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19692; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:59:53 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980618095950.51306@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:59:50 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Michael P. Sale" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) References: <01bd9a26$571e9a20$3c06bccc@708644668> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <01bd9a26$571e9a20$3c06bccc@708644668>; from Michael P. Sale on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:30:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:30:09PM -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: > >Why would they want to watch two lists when they believe they are doing > >an adequate job in the one that exists. > > The problem I believe lies in the fact that they *believe* that questions is > enough. I personally do not believe that it is. If you don't like how freebsd-questions works, there's a lot of people who would like to hear about your problems with the list so that they can address them. Care to share? > >They won't be paid overtime. > > As I said, the questions are allready being answered somewhere. Or is it > just that everyone believes that if there was a newbies-questions list that > newbies would actually start asking "newbie" questions. There is only > overtime if you believe the latter. If you believe the latter, then there > is a deficency. They would end up answering the same questions in two lists, effectively doubling the workload and halving their tolerance of repeated questions. People help because it's fun. It's not fun to take care over an answer and find that the same question is still asked, as if it wasn't worth your trouble answering in the first place. > >And for that matter, why should we have to look in two places for answers. > > I have a hard time believing you even wrote that. When I look for > information pertaining to this OS, I look in so many different places it's > not even funny. It is usually a fairly long search as well. I believe that > such a group would actually cut down on the search time for such answers. > > >There is no clear distinction between newbies level questions and more > >difficult questions, so we'd be looking all over. > > I completely disagree. If that were true, one would only need to write one > book per OS and be done with it. "How do I mount a drive" and "my server > just blew up after doing an upgrade" are pretty different questions > requireing different levels of expertise. I will agree that you may be > right in the fact that newbie users may have a tough time differentiating > between the two. I think that's the biggest problem. Lists can be defined in terms of topic content, type of people, or activities. (Here the topic is the activities of newbies) To use subject content it is necessary for all participants to be able to tell what is and what is not part of that topic. Things like "children's football in Sydney" work; things like "social responsibility for politicians and journalists" don't. It's fairly common for FreeBSD newbies to encounter a problem which they believe is a simple one caused by their own stupidity but is in fact quite complex or unusual, and find that only one of the hundreds of experienced people in -questions knows the answer. > >They wouldn't get a chance. The place would be full of ex-newbies > >answering easy questions with bad answers and intimidating the newbies > >who'd otherwise have a go :-) > > Again, then people would stop asking questions on such a list. I'm not sure > how much more you want me to prove a point. But I don't think they'd stop. I think many would learn to be more dependent, take on a service user's mentality, and have trouble moving out of that role later on. > >And some people in -questions and elsewhere would go back to spreading > >the belief that every newbie is a braindead sloth who wants personal > >hand-holding and just makes more work for everyone else by spreading > >misinformation, a liability who doesn't deserve any consideration because > >they'll never be bothered to help themselves. Go right ahead, prove it :-) > > This is a problem with ANYTHING technical and is not a FreeBSD only issue. > Some newbies are such creatures while others are not. The truth is that > FreeBSD is eons behind other OS's in being a good tool for newbies. More > specifically unix newbies. As long as the documentation is sparse and the > support is not aimed towards such a group, it will stay that way. Since I > don't see too many books on FreeBSD out there I think that the deficency > needs to be made up for with a newbies-questions group. Don't you want more good documentation for newbies, progress towards making FreeBSD more newbie-friendly, greater awareness of the needs and abilities of newbies in general? I'd rather see any deficiencies removed (or at least worked on with input from newbies) rather than accepted as OK because there's a scheme targeted at fixing problems after they happen. We all have limited resources and I'm looking at using them effectively. Until recently, newbies were not a resource and that's a terrible waste. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 17:12:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10475 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10469 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19727; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:11:54 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980618101150.14704@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:11:50 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nik Clayton Cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico References: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <19980617002803.07527@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> <19980617002151.21641@nothing-going-on.org> <19980617180012.64598@welearn.com.au> <19980617205005.51409@nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980617205005.51409@nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 08:50:05PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 08:50:05PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:00:12PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > would show you the information you're looking for in the "Invocation" > > > section. > > > > Of course, the "Invocation" section! Jeez, I'd never have thought of that > > word, glad you mentioned it :-) > > Well, it's only 2 and a half (or thereabouts) pages in on a 25 line display > :-) > > And, when you think about it, you only pass the parameters when you > 'invoke' the program. Sure, it all makes good sense. It's just that people like you seem to have the ability to pull the correct word out of the air and then go find it. I usually work out half a dozen synonyms and then find the manual writer has used yet another :-) When I find it, I go "oh yeah, come to think of it, that sounds like the word a computery person would use" > > > Alternatively, you could look at some existing shell scripts on your > > > system to see if they do it. /etc/rc, /etc/rc.serial and /etc/rc.firewall > > > have examples of examining the positional parameters passed to a script > > > (although, granted, they're not the easiest code to understand). > > > > "positional parameters"? I reckon it'd be much easier to get info out of > > man pages if some of these words were more familiar, and I guess that > > sort of grows on you after doing battle with man pages for a while. > > What would be a more familiar term? "the little bits of stuff you add on the end after typing a command" > As far as I can tell, any term you use for them is going to carry overtones > of where ever you first learned the term. > > With my "Hmm, that's interesting" hat on, I notice that Tim's original > message didn't name (exactly) what he was talking. He said > > > What's the equivalent in Unix of %1, %2, etc in a DOS batch file? > > At the risk of misrepresenting Tim's position, if he can't phrase what > he's looking for in a meaningful fashion (Tim: I mean that as "You don't > know the meaning of those terms" not "You're a blithering idiot", please > don't take offence) then finding the answer is going to be difficult no > matter what. Yes!! That's me!! :-) I can't phrase what I'm looking for in a meaningful fashion. Now, if I phrased that last statement in a meaningful fashion, perhaps I can find out how to learn to do it better? > Keep in mind that the system manual pages are not meant to be tutorials, > they're references. The comp.unix.shell FAQ would probably have been > more useful. > > [ And to second guess your next question "How did you know the newsgroup > existed?" -- I didn't. I asked my newsreader for all newsgroups that > contained the word "shell" in the name, just on the off chance. ] > > > There isn't a glossary anywhere, is there? > > Probably, but you'll need to shell[1] out some money. I would imagine that > O'Reilly do a decent shell programming book which probably has a glossary. I don't know that a shell programming glossary would be enough, but it would cover a lot of what I'm missing. I suspect that a lot of the language that is used, in man pages and general communication about problems and how things work, is language that is familiar to C programmers. Most of the books I've seen show how-to, but skimp on important concepts and definitions in order to be more appealing. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 17:13:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10746 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10738 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:13:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19735; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:13:39 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980618101335.17364@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:13:35 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: David Wolfskill Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vi References: <199806171614.JAA05162@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199806171614.JAA05162@pau-amma.whistle.com>; from David Wolfskill on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:14:58AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:14:58AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > >Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:24:12 -0700 > >From: Tim Gerchmez > > >No. The simple fact is, I don't want to right now, and don't yet see the > >point in doing so. Personally, I believe this thread got heated because I > >basically insulted an original, holy Unix text editor.... > > Uhhmmm.... :-) > > No. vi isn't "original". It was written (essentially) by Bill Joy, > while he was at UC Berkeley, as a "glass TTY" front-end for ex. Where does ed fit into this history? Is ed available everywhere? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 18:16:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18856 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from carriage.chesco.com (carriage.chesco.com [209.195.192.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18849 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:16:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bryan@chesco.com) Received: from bryan (mxhyp1x1.chesco.com [209.195.202.20]) by carriage.chesco.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA24984 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:16:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806180116.VAA24984@carriage.chesco.com> X-Sender: bryan@pop.chesco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 20:18:04 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Bryan Seltzer Subject: just want to know Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have reading the posting on 'Lists, newbies & support' and I am now confused. When I first started to install freebsd (month or so ago) I posted a question to this group. I did get 2 responses from the group, but one told me to post in questions group. Now I had also been subscribed to the Freebsd-questions group also and it seemed way above my head and a waist of there time, to even post a "where do I find docs on ppp" question. Seems to me that this would have been the place to post this question, but I was told other wise. So my question is what is the newbies group for if we cant post our questions here? Telling a newbie to go somewhere else and post makes some people draw back and think maybe this question is not for the Freebsd-questions group either. Bryan Seltzer "one day at a time" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 18:51:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22514 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:51:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22505 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA20007; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:51:19 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980618115115.10934@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:51:15 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Bryan Seltzer Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: just want to know References: <199806180116.VAA24984@carriage.chesco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199806180116.VAA24984@carriage.chesco.com>; from Bryan Seltzer on Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 08:18:04PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 08:18:04PM -0400, Bryan Seltzer wrote: > So my question is what is the newbies group for if we cant post our > questions here? Are you asking this question before or after reading the list charter on the FreeBSD web site the information sent from majordomo when you subsribed to -newbies the newbies resources page http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html the newbies FAK http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ the weekly reposting to this list ? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 18:52:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22748 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:52:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.bigskytel.com (root@dns.bigskytel.com [209.19.155.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22737 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:52:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from mlduke ([209.19.155.70]) by dns.bigskytel.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24904; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:51:45 -0600 Message-ID: <358873B2.1858@concentric.net> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:56:02 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdn@acp.qiv.com CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <00a301bd9a44$aef9c4e0$4852f126@kellogg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kerby Smith wrote: > > heh, i was just kinda in awe of this conversation Likewise. Which has inspired some thoughts. The vi discussion goes to the very root of Unix itself. Unix exists in objective reality. It doesn't give a hoot what people "feel" about it. If things are set up correctly it operates perfectly. A single misplaced text character can cause serious malfunction. Unix operates on the premis of absolutes: You do this right (user) and I will do this in very little time (Unix) or at the very least allow you to do other things while I carry on. We do it wrong, Unix tells us to go fly. Unix is a philosophy: Small is beautiful. Small programs, written by very strong minds, working together to accomplish many things in extraordinarily short periods of time. More strong minds discovering new and better ways to integrate the programs, introduce new ones. But many people, if not most these days, object very strongly to the idea of an objective reality that does not care what we as humans think about it. They actually believe the reality around them changes depending upon what they feel about it. Which is why, I think, Unix is, in a very basic way, hated. Unix _is_ the internet, for example, but few know it and most think its winfeces. Many faced with the facts refuse to accept them--like those who believed in "acid rain" and still believe in the "ozone theory". And win operates in objevtive reality itself, it just doesn't let the user know about it: This is why it locks up, refuses to boot, smashes other programs and requires users to reinstall it on a routine basis. It tries to be all things to all people who do not wish to think much. And no computer can do that. Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 19:15:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25979 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:15:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25971 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (daisy30.verinet.com [199.45.181.254]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA31406; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:14:36 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03764; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:14:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:14:30 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199806180214.UAA03764@struct.> To: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk, sue@welearn.com.au Subject: Re: Pine and Pico Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980617180012.64598@welearn.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > would show you the information you're looking for in the "Invocation" > > section. > > Of course, the "Invocation" section! Jeez, I'd never have thought of that > word, glad you mentioned it :-) > > > Alternatively, you could look at some existing shell scripts on your > > system to see if they do it. /etc/rc, /etc/rc.serial and /etc/rc.firewall > > have examples of examining the positional parameters passed to a script > > (although, granted, they're not the easiest code to understand). > > "positional parameters"? I reckon it'd be much easier to get info out of > man pages if some of these words were more familiar, and I guess that > sort of grows on you after doing battle with man pages for a while. > There isn't a glossary anywhere, is there? I've been frustrated with this also. I can honestly say that I do my best to read the available material before asking questions, but that much of that time is wasted guessing my way through enormous man pages. I have seen manual pages that provide a section list near the top. Many of the larger manual pages in HP-UX provide this. Each section in the page is listed (sans SEE ALSO, AUTHOR and other 'standard' sections,) allowing you search for a section quickly. In this case having 'Invocation' listed as one of the available sections might have done the trick. Consider the 5016 lines (according to more(1)) of the bash man page. This thing might be a lot more helpful if there was a section list something like: Sections: ARGUMENTS INVOCATION DEFINITIONS RESERVED WORDS SHELL GRAMMAR COMMENTS QUOTING PARAMETERS EXPANSION REDIRECTION ALIASES FUNCTIONS COMMAND EXECUTION ENVIRONMENT EXIT STATUS SIGNALS JOB CONTROL PROMPTING READLINE HISTORY HISTORY EXPANSION ARITHMETIC EVALUATION SHELL BUILTIN COMMANDS RESTRICTED SHELL Anyhow, If you run X, you might look into tkman. It is available in the ports and it makes manual pages a couple orders of magnitude more useful. There is a 'random manual page' button in this program in case your _really_ bored. :) -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 20:30:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05573 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:30:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-222.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05510 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:29:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA00535; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:28:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: ML Duke cc: jdn@acp.qiv.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <358873B2.1858@concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message says alot and I agree whole heartedly with it all. On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, ML Duke wrote: > Kerby Smith wrote: > > > > heh, i was just kinda in awe of this conversation > > Likewise. Which has inspired some thoughts. The vi discussion goes > to the very root of Unix itself. Unix exists in objective reality. > It doesn't give a hoot what people "feel" about it. If things are > set up correctly it operates perfectly. A single misplaced text > character can cause serious malfunction. Unix operates on the premis > of absolutes: You do this right (user) and I will do this in very > little time (Unix) or at the very least allow you to do other things > while I carry on. We do it wrong, Unix tells us to go fly. > > Unix is a philosophy: Small is beautiful. Small programs, written by > very strong minds, working together to accomplish many things in > extraordinarily short periods of time. More strong minds discovering > new and better ways to integrate the programs, introduce new ones. sed, awk, cat, grep, cut 5 commands I am a firm believer that with those 4 commands and enough | and > characters you can accomplish 90% of the text processing problems. Then to top it off put a ' | mail myaddress@myemail.com' on the end and get the results in your mailbox. That is true power. Newbie challenge: Using ifconfig, grep, and cut give one UNIX command that shows an IP address on a network interface. I did that when I first started because I wanted a way to e-mail my IP address to myself when my dialer connected and I was not at home. It was a feeling to get it to work and it is not that difficult. Plus, you get a feeling for what simple tools placed together in a sensible fashion can do for you with relative ease. > But many people, if not most these days, object very strongly to > the idea of an objective reality that does not care what we as humans > think about it. They actually believe the reality around them changes > depending upon what they feel about it. Which is why, I think, Unix is, > in a very basic way, hated. Unix _is_ the internet, for example, > but few know it and most think its winfeces. Many faced with the facts > refuse to accept them--like those who believed in "acid rain" and still > believe in the "ozone theory". When my file processing class, sophomore level Computer science, was told that the course was going to be taught on AIX machines alot of people paniced. There was a sense of rest because my school had just stopped teaching 370 mainframe assembly and people were glad to be off 'arcane' hardware. All semester people made "UNIX is not used in the real world" statements. All the while I laughed ;). Then, then time rolled around for co-op's and most places this time around just happened to want UNIX experience. That was fun to watch > And win operates in objevtive reality itself, it just doesn't let > the user know about it: This is why it locks up, refuses to boot, > smashes other programs and requires users to reinstall it on a > routine basis. It tries to be all things to all people who do not > wish to think much. And no computer can do that. I think part of this attitude is that people don't know anything different. This pushes the myth that all computers are unreliable. How many times have you gone to a store and heard, "Oh the system is down today." How many home PC, average window's 95 users who bought their computer at Sears, Office Max, or the like know ANYTHING else? I bet that number is high. Partly because of fear to experiment. They fear any little thing can break the plastic and metal box they just bought. This is understood beacuse they are new and there are all the stories of Bob who's computer caught a virus, and Frank who's hard drive crashed and he lost everything. This causes them to just stick with windows. They don't realize the performance gains that can be made by using another OS. I am not a strong windows advocate. It has its highs and lows, and I think as a development environment or in a network environment where you need a robust and high performance system, UNIX wins hands down. However, like it or not, windows DOES have one thing over UNIX. That is the interface. How hard is it to learn when you turn the thing on and you see a little yellow arrow moving across the bottom of the screen saying click here to start? I know all the arguments about KDE, CDE, FVWM95, and such but how many machines have you seen preloaded with those? How many people ask questions about setting them up? What about just X alone? Then how many people have problems with PPP user or god forbid kernel mode. Then you have to think about PAP and CHAP vs. plaintext passwords. Modem init strings? god forbid we use those they came from DOS. Windows takes all that away and replaces it with a fill in the blank puzzle. Compare setting up a windows printer to configuring lpd, if I could click a printer name and a port and have any file I want print properly, I would certainly be happier when it came to be lpd time. (THANK God for APSFilter, which almost make it that easy). These are the issues that should be addressed before something like BSD or Linux appears in a common household. We can only overcome the problem of low expectations from software, and hence low quality-high price commercial software, when people realize that there better things and without a "point-and-click" interface I doubt that will ever be achieved. The true challenge comes in creating the interface, but maintaining the ability to get the power we do now out of it without going to extra pains and avoiding system bloat. I know this is probably a poorly structured post, forgive it, but I think you can probably get my points. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 20:31:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05824 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:31:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-222.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05739 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA00542; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:29:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:29:56 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Sue Blake cc: David Wolfskill , newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vi In-Reply-To: <19980618101335.17364@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:14:58AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > > >Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:24:12 -0700 > > >From: Tim Gerchmez > > > > >No. The simple fact is, I don't want to right now, and don't yet see the > > >point in doing so. Personally, I believe this thread got heated because I > > >basically insulted an original, holy Unix text editor.... > > > > Uhhmmm.... :-) > > > > No. vi isn't "original". It was written (essentially) by Bill Joy, > > while he was at UC Berkeley, as a "glass TTY" front-end for ex. > > Where does ed fit into this history? > Is ed available everywhere? I believe that ed was developed with ex. At least concurrently and in the same time period. I have seen ed on every UNIX system I have used (AIX, IRIX, Linux, OSF/1, FreeBSD, SunOS) so I am guessing that is a pretty sound yes. vi, ed, and ex are the 3 that are almost everywhere as far as I am aware. EMACS is spread around alot too, but may not be available in times of crisis due to it's size. vi, ed, and ex tend to be in /bin (or /etc) and EMACS is bigger and usually on /usr which might not be there in a time of a crisis (IE drives not mounted). James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 20:31:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05974 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05951 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:31:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA20359; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:31:02 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980618133058.01310@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:30:58 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: allen campbell Cc: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico References: <19980617180012.64598@welearn.com.au> <199806180214.UAA03764@struct.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199806180214.UAA03764@struct.>; from allen campbell on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 08:14:30PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 08:14:30PM -0600, allen campbell wrote: > > > would show you the information you're looking for in the "Invocation" > > > section. > > > > Of course, the "Invocation" section! Jeez, I'd never have thought of that > > word, glad you mentioned it :-) > > > > > Alternatively, you could look at some existing shell scripts on your > > > system to see if they do it. /etc/rc, /etc/rc.serial and /etc/rc.firewall > > > have examples of examining the positional parameters passed to a script > > > (although, granted, they're not the easiest code to understand). > > > > "positional parameters"? I reckon it'd be much easier to get info out of > > man pages if some of these words were more familiar, and I guess that > > sort of grows on you after doing battle with man pages for a while. > > There isn't a glossary anywhere, is there? > > I've been frustrated with this also. I can honestly say that I do > my best to read the available material before asking questions, > but that much of that time is wasted guessing my way through enormous > man pages. > > I have seen manual pages that provide a section list near the top. > Many of the larger manual pages in HP-UX provide this. Each section > in the page is listed (sans SEE ALSO, AUTHOR and other 'standard' > sections,) allowing you search for a section quickly. > > In this case having 'Invocation' listed as one of the available > sections might have done the trick. Consider the 5016 lines > (according to more(1)) of the bash man page. This thing might be > a lot more helpful if there was a section list something like: > > After seeing your outline of the bash man page it occurred to me that we have a problem with the use of common words with new specialised meanings. Someone in the know might imagine that, for example, since "signal" is a common word, everyone should know what it means in this context. Take 'argument' for example. You might laugh if I were to say: The argument for mkdir is cd. Though it's clearly wrong, it does kinda sound OK, don't you think? Just imagine how wrong someone could get these words if they were interpreted according to everyday experience: ARGUMENTS INVOCATION reasons for or against magic spell DEFINITIONS RESERVED WORDS explain words simply naughty words, e.g. for body functions SHELL GRAMMAR COMMENTS asking nicely for petrol opinions (see also reserved words) QUOTING PARAMETERS including original mail range to keep within to meet budget EXPANSION REDIRECTION effect of too much pizza go ask in -questions ALIASES FUNCTIONS email/IRC names see reserved words These words gradually become associated with their new meanings by repeated proper use in the new context. Hearing them without them being defined in context doesn't help much. It's saying them that helps the words stick, and for that, some new definitions would be handy. Maybe there is something in the shell FAQ, I haven't looked yet. > Anyhow, If you run X, you might look into tkman. It is available > in the ports and it makes manual pages a couple orders of magnitude > more useful. There is a 'random manual page' button in this program > in case your _really_ bored. :) Or really stumped :-) I will try that next time I have X up, thanks for the tip. xman or whatever it is didn't impress me much. It couldn't find all of the man pages, so I couldn't find the man page that told me how to tell it where to find the man pages. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jun 17 21:19:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12401 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.impulse.net (mail.impulse.net [204.188.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA12395 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:19:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@merchantsnet.com) Received: (qmail 9424 invoked from network); 18 Jun 1998 04:19:23 -0000 Received: from sb1-72.impulse.net (HELO 708644668) (204.188.6.72) by mail.impulse.net with SMTP; 18 Jun 1998 04:19:23 -0000 From: "Michael P. Sale" To: "Sue Blake" Cc: Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:14:58 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9a6f$a829c900$4806bccc@708644668> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >If you don't like how freebsd-questions works, there's a lot of people >who would like to hear about your problems with the list so that they can >address them. Care to share? Sure. It is my opinion that questions is simply not very newbie friendly and that newbies are intimidated by the thought of sending a mail percieved as stupid email in. Then, sometimes when answers do come back, they are often "newbie ambiguos" at best. Often, email that is returned to a newbie says something like "check to make sure your s01 interface is configured correctly". Eh? How does one even do that I wonder? Then the question comes...eeerr how do I do that? This of course is after the newbie has waited a day for the answer and then spends countless hours searching up references to s01 because he does not want to look like the perceived leech that we discussed earlier. When posting to a newsgroup such as questions, anyone with any sense wants to have looked everywhere and done everything possible before going to the list. ( I think most of us appreciate the time many question answerers spend there) The problem with that again is that the information is VERY HARD to dig out and track down. It's not like linux with lots of books and references that are handy and can be gone through before posting. For someone that does not have hours (literally) to do such searching, this process becomes not a process of fun and adventure, but pain and agony. Not all newbies are going to stick through that pain and agony simply because they read about what a powerfull secure OS FreeBSD is. A newbies question list would give newbies the freedom to ask those easy questions that will get them pointed in the right direction and not feel silly. I think that there would be abusers, but as with any other list, abusers usually get pruned fairly quickly. Plus, unlike the questions list, I imagine most newbies would read every email and thus learn more about the OS. I get over 500 emails a day from various lists (not counting newsgroups) and I certainly don't have time to monitor the questions list as I would like. A newbies list would be much more appropriate for such things. >They would end up answering the same questions in two lists, effectively >doubling the workload and halving their tolerance of repeated >questions. People help because it's fun. It's not fun to take care over >an answer and find that the same question is still asked, as if it wasn't >worth your trouble answering in the first place. I seriously doubt their workload would double. At worst, we would see some cross posting. I can't imagine that many of the same questions don't recycle about every 20-30 days anyway. I believe that the folks that take the time to answer questions may think that this is a possibility, but I don't think it's reality. >I think that's the biggest problem. Lists can be defined in terms of >topic content, type of people, or activities. (Here the topic is the >activities of newbies) To use subject content it is necessary for all >participants to be able to tell what is and what is not part of that >topic. Things like "children's football in Sydney" work; things like >"social responsibility for politicians and journalists" don't. It's >fairly common for FreeBSD newbies to encounter a problem which they >believe is a simple one caused by their own stupidity but is in fact >quite complex or unusual, and find that only one of the hundreds of >experienced people in -questions knows the answer. Such a question in a newbies group would either go unanswered and thus the user may clue into upping the ante or end up forwarded to questions. I didn't say it would be perfect, just better. >But I don't think they'd stop. I think many would learn to be more >dependent, take on a service user's mentality, and have trouble moving >out of that role later on. You think that people would become dependent on bad advice? Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree about that. >Don't you want more good documentation for newbies, progress towards >making FreeBSD more newbie-friendly, greater awareness of the needs and >abilities of newbies in general? I'd rather see any deficiencies removed >(or at least worked on with input from newbies) rather than accepted as >OK because there's a scheme targeted at fixing problems after they happen. No, I don't.... Of course I do, but you can wish in one hand a spit in the other. See what comes first. I think we could compare FreeBSD support wise to Linux of three years ago. Do I want to wait for the documentation of FreeBSD to catch up to current Linux standards before I use it? Lets look at some interim solutions to a problem that is a way off from being fixed. Everyday that FreeBSD goes without more documentation, an easy interface and low level support is another day that a new user chooses another unix variant over FreeBSD. I think that one of those issues is very addressable right now. The others will come in time as things that take time do. > >We all have limited resources and I'm looking at using them effectively. >Until recently, newbies were not a resource and that's a terrible waste. Absolutely. And the more newbies that FreeBSD can catch and keep, the more newbies will be able to add to the process. I just want to see those newbies stay. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 00:00:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01246 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.dod.niss.gov.ua ([194.93.188.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01117; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:59:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vova@dod.niss.gov.ua) Received: from visa.dod.niss.gov.ua (visa.dod.niss.gov.ua [194.93.188.194]) by relay.dod.niss.gov.ua (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18757; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:00:40 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from vova@dod.niss.gov.ua) Message-Id: <199806180700.KAA18757@relay.dod.niss.gov.ua> From: "Vladimir V. Tkatchenko" To: Cc: Subject: Multilink PPP Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:00:21 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are anybody tell me does FreeBSD 2.2.5 have Mulilink PPP support? Detaily - we have two channels, four modems. Can we get a ppp link over one interface over two liased async line with one traffic? We use serial multiplexor boards like Digiboard. Where we can find support for subj under FreeBSD 2.2.5? May be we must get 2.2.6 release? Please answer. Thank you beforehand. Vladimir V. Tkatchenko To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 00:40:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08214 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:40:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ccr.ntu.ac.uk (ccr.ntu.ac.uk [152.71.25.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08150 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:39:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim.parkinson@ccr.ntu.ac.uk) Received: from stimpy (152.71.25.146) by ccr.ntu.ac.uk (Rockliffe SMTPRA 1.2.2) with SMTP id ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:40:29 +0000 From: "Tim Parkinson" To: Subject: I sussed my NIC problems Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:40:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000501bd9a8c$5aeef2b0$92194798@stimpy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Top Tip: When editing rc.conf with pico, don't let the comment on a line drop down a line, then save the file. That, I believe was the root of the further problems I was having after installing a new net card. Maybe I should read the pico docs, and see if there is an option to turn off word wrap. On another note, using tcpdump on ed0 (which is connected to a cable modem), produced very interesting output. The reason (I think) our cable modem very rarely works, or if it does is *very* slow, is down to us receiving packet requests for a whole boatload of IP's. Slowly, but surely... ---------------------------------------------- Tim Parkinson -Teaching Company Associate Nottingham Trent University & Clerical Gas Ltd Tel: 0115 9783677 Fax: 0115 9706977 tim.parkinson@ccr.ntu.ac.uk tim@gubbins.ml.org -Home To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 04:37:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA15560 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 04:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gateway.cbrands.austasia.net (creative.austasia.net [203.23.160.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA15554 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 04:37:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from CyberDealer@CyberJunkie.com) Received: from pc00 (ppp27.melbourne.austasia.net [203.23.160.127]) by gateway.cbrands.austasia.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23957 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:37:43 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199806181137.VAA23957@gateway.cbrands.austasia.net> Reply-To: From: "Brett Gray" To: "Freebsd Newbies List" Subject: HTML/Email Frontend for adduser/rmuser/aliases etc. Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:36:06 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi All, I dont know if one already exists (I have spent many hours searching the web and cant find one to date) but I am looking for a HTML or Email 'front end' to allow an authorised/particular user to create/remove users, aliases, and .forward files on a freeBSD mail server. It would only be used on an intranet, not connected to the internet so security is not a major issue. A HTML form based solution is preferable, however I did consider trying to use a received email processed by a procmail recipe but Im not sure how it would be done. Any solutions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Brett Gray (beatteam@austasia.net) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 06:44:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05255 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:44:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05228 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup509.serv.net [207.207.70.74]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA22324 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:43:38 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Major hardware reorganization... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK... I've completely reorganized my hardware. I've consolidated both 2 gig drives into my main PC and decided to lose the Ethernet and the 2nd PC entirely. Amazing how it's speeded up my PC not having all those extra network protocols hanging around and being burdened by old 3c503 network cards. So anyway, FreeBSD is now on my main machine with a modem, and after a bit of fooling around, I now have the ppp command working using ppp -background on-demand dialing. Works like a charm, but took some research (as everything new you do in FreeBSD does). So perhaps I will begin using W95 less and BSD/Xfree86 more now... or perhaps I won't, depends :-) I go through software and OS phases, and this is a triple boot machine - I have Win95, NT workstation and FreeBSD installed on it. We'll see which I gravitate toward. So far, Win95 is the only OS that supports all my hardware, and for certain operations is the fastest (it definitely boots the quickest of the 3 OS's, BSD second, Win NT third). As far as hardware support goes, Win95 wins by a mile, NT is second, and FreeBSD a distant third. As far as multitasking power and stability go though, there's no question as to which of the three wins... I'll bet you can all guess which OS that is.. :-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 07:50:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15280 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA15225 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:49:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09256 for newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:49:18 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806181449.HAA09256@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:28:41 -0400 (EDT) >From: James >However, like it or not, windows DOES have one thing over UNIX. That is >the interface. Do you find it so? I find it quite the opposite. >How hard is it to learn when you turn the thing on and >you see a little yellow arrow moving across the bottom of the screen >saying click here to start? With which button? What do you mean by using a mouse with only 2 buttons? Which button is missing? How do I get the missing button's function? The few times (< a dozen) that I've tried to get anything done in such an environment, I'd generally get an interface I couldn't understand, applications or machines that would hang, or some combination thereof. How stuff could be sold that does that is something that I find mind- boggling. That folks would actually spend money to acquire something that does that is truly incredible. And the goofy little meaningless icons on a low-resolution display don't help, either. [Ref: "low-resolution" meaning that I'm not real happy with the resolution on my ancient Sun 3/60, which is 1120x900.] And the ability to use forms of regular expressions on command lines (in UNIX) is quite useful, powerful, and -- once you get used to it -- inuitive. >I know all the arguments about KDE, CDE, >FVWM95, and such but how many machines have you seen preloaded with those? Well, as a UNIX sysadmin, it's my job to make sure things like that are set up for my colleagues. >How many people ask questions about setting them up? What about just X >alone? X *is* complicated; no question. It's also more than just a little configurable.... :-) I generally invite folks to copy any files in my home directory that are world-readable, including any "dot files" there. >Then how many people have problems with PPP user or god forbid kernel >mode. Then you have to think about PAP and CHAP vs. plaintext passwords. If you're using passwords *without* thinking about them, that's a significant concern.... >Modem init strings? god forbid we use those they came from DOS. I used MODEMs prior to Microsoft's existence (when "DOS" referred to "DOS/360").... But a "MODEM initialization string" should be used for precisely the function described by the name: it's a string to use to initialize a MODEM. Normally, I'll initialize the MODEM for "normal" use (and write that configuration to the MODEM's memory -- NVRAM). Then, if a particular use of the MODEM requires something different, the "chat script" or whatever the application uses can set that.... >These are the issues that should be addressed before something like BSD or >Linux appears in a common household. Well, I could probably be convinced that my household isn't all that "common" -- the machines my wife & I have & use are Suns.... :-) [My involvement with FreeBSD is strictly here at work. And lest I be accused of not being a true "newbie," I've only dealt with FreeBSD since the end of February. I do have a fair amount of other UNIX experience, as well as IBM mainframe experience. IBM PC-type hardware continues to baffle me -- if anything drives me away from FreeBSD, that will be it. By contrast, the Suns are so much easier to work with -- plug things in, and they just work....] david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 08:35:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23598 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1c.yahoomail.com (send1c.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23564 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:35:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon_v_mendoza@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980618153734.4840.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Received: from [128.58.111.30] by send1c; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:37:33 PDT Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:37:33 -0700 (PDT) From: simon mendoza Subject: Re: Pine and Pico To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Just imagine how wrong someone could get these words if they > were interpreted according to everyday experience: > > ARGUMENTS INVOCATION > reasons for or against magic spell > > DEFINITIONS RESERVED WORDS > explain words simply naughty words, e.g. for body functions > > SHELL GRAMMAR COMMENTS > asking nicely for petrol opinions (see also reserved words) > > QUOTING PARAMETERS > including original mail range to keep within to meet budget > > EXPANSION REDIRECTION > effect of too much pizza go ask in -questions > > ALIASES FUNCTIONS > email/IRC names see reserved words > > These words gradually become associated with their new meanings by > repeated proper use in the new context. While reading this part of your message I remembered a very funny situation I encountered while doing some technical support at the company I work for: one user just gave me a call because his computer had gone completlely mad and "it didn't know what its own resources were for". Puzzled by the odd comentary I had to go in and check out what the user was stating. Once I got there I find that the users machine (in win95) had the control panel view and the system administrator opened. The user tried to explain that he was just looking for some files and ended up there, and when he was trying to reach for information, he pressed de rightest side button and the computer answered back with a question: "What is this?" (This is a feature of win 95 that gives you a small explanation of the device you ar pointing at) and since he didn't go on pressing the button, he panicked since he thought his own computer didn't have a clue about what its own components were. I just stepped out of the room (on the excuse of going to the toillete) and laughed my lungs out. After some thougths about it I concluded that not all things can be interpreted the way they look, because if you get to feel them the interpretation may be the opposite. Greetings Simon. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 09:30:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00536 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (cc344191-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.83.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00451 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:30:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Received: by luomat.peak.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA27404; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806181630.MAA27404@luomat.peak.org> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000501bd9a8c$5aeef2b0$92194798@stimpy> From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 12:30:01 -0400 To: "Tim Parkinson" Subject: Re: I sussed my NIC problems cc: References: <000501bd9a8c$5aeef2b0$92194798@stimpy> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Author: "Tim Parkinson" Original-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:40:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000501bd9a8c$5aeef2b0$92194798@stimpy> > That, I believe was the root of the further problems I was having after > installing a new net card. Maybe I should read the pico docs, and see if > there is an option to turn off word wrap. FYI the -w flag turns off word wrap for pico HOWEVER it doesn't mean that REALLY long line (256 chars, IIRC) won't be wrapped anyway (a major hassle esp if you want to edit your .newsrc or some such which may have very long lines). For 'root' I have actually aliased pico to 'pico -w' because it is easier to wrap test using ^j than it is to have it wrap when you don't want it to! For my normal UID I didn't bother as any mistakes there won't be as critical! TjL, waiting for FedEx to arrive so he can try a FreeBSD install! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 09:37:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01703 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (cc344191-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.83.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01695 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Received: by luomat.peak.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA27806; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:37:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806181637.MAA27806@luomat.peak.org> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 12:37:30 -0400 To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Author: Tim Gerchmez Original-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:43:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> > Win95 is the only OS that supports all my hardware, and for > certain operations is the fastest (it definitely boots the quickest > of the 3 OS's, BSD second, Win NT third) Well Win95 should reboot fast, given all the the times it has to reboot (not a flame, just a fact.... many/most changes under Win95 require a reboot to update the system). BSD does take quite awhile to boot... I wonder how much of it might be trimmed down if a custom kernel was built to the specifics of only what hardware was on the machine. TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 11:05:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17546 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from web2.rocketmail.com (web2.rocketmail.com [205.180.57.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17530 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stingroy@rocketmail.com) Message-ID: <19980618181348.17175.rocketmail@web2.rocketmail.com> Received: from [202.54.54.212] by web2; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:13:48 PDT Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:13:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Sanjit Roy Subject: Mirror Sites with FTP Resume facility? To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Can anyone tell me if any of the mirror sites supports 'resuming'. I'm trying to download FreeBSD 2.2.6 and I'm having trouble downloading huge files(ports.tgz - 9MB , it's huge compared to my net speed). Regards. Sanjit. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 12:35:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29422 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29415 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-46.aei.ca [206.186.205.196]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01920; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35896B81.D140985A@aei.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:33:21 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Timothy J Luoma CC: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... References: <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> <199806181637.MAA27806@luomat.peak.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Timothy J Luoma wrote: > > Author: Tim Gerchmez > Original-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:43:38 -0700 > Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> > > > Win95 is the only OS that supports all my hardware, and for > > certain operations is the fastest (it definitely boots the quickest > > of the 3 OS's, BSD second, Win NT third) > > Well Win95 should reboot fast, given all the the times it has to reboot (not > a flame, just a fact.... many/most changes under Win95 require a reboot to > update the system). > > BSD does take quite awhile to boot... I wonder how much of it might be > trimmed down if a custom kernel was built to the specifics of only what > hardware was on the machine. > > TjL I have made my cusom kernel. Its pretty easy and it take a few minutes when you know how to(maybe five!). If you dont know how, take one hour with the doc reading and error ;-) Ok, when you boot with the GENERIC kernel, freebsd use a lot of time to find all hardware that does'nt exist and waste 15-20 second on a scsi timout or something like that. When you remove all those scsi thing or than you customize it, it take *less* than my win95 to boot! Remember than win95 seems speedy because there is a beautiful win95.bmp presented to you ;-) Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 12:49:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01523 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01517 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:49:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrI-46.aei.ca [206.186.205.196]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03687; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35896EDE.5702EAC6@aei.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:47:42 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sanjit Roy CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mirror Sites with FTP Resume facility? References: <19980618181348.17175.rocketmail@web2.rocketmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sanjit Roy wrote: > > Hi! > Can anyone tell me if any of the mirror sites supports 'resuming'. > I'm trying to download FreeBSD 2.2.6 and I'm having trouble > downloading huge files(ports.tgz - 9MB , it's huge compared to my net > speed). > > Regards. > Sanjit. I suggest you to not install ports on your computer because they go out of time really fast... Well, its so much easy to browse them by ftp or by lynx. To get a specific port by ftp, log on ftp.cdrom.com $ ftp ftp.cdrom.com > user=ftp > password=anything@anything > cd pub/FreeBSD/ports/ > ls net > cd net > ls ircII >get ircII.tar notes: The file "ircII.tar" doesnt really exist ircII was a directory but when I say "get ircII.tar", I get ALL the directory $ pwd /usr/home/malartre $ ls ircII.tar $ tar -xvf ircII.tar $ ls ircII ircII.tar $ cd ircII $ make $ make install $ make clean $ cd .. $ rm -r ircII $ mv ircII.tar /usr/ports/ (to archive them) Easy no? ;-) Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 13:54:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11293 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.force9.co.uk [195.166.136.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11268; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:54:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10005; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:17:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199806182017.VAA10005@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: "Vladimir V. Tkatchenko" cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Multilink PPP In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:00:21 +0300." <199806180700.KAA18757@relay.dod.niss.gov.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:17:57 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Are anybody tell me does FreeBSD 2.2.5 have Mulilink PPP support? > Detaily - we have two channels, four modems. Can we get a ppp link over one > interface over two liased async line with one traffic? We use serial > multiplexor boards like Digiboard. Where we can find support for subj under > FreeBSD 2.2.5? May be we must get 2.2.6 release? > Please answer. Thank you beforehand. http://www.Awfulhak.org/ppp.html > Vladimir V. Tkatchenko -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 15:23:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26455 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26432 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:23:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11086; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:05:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980618220535.60101@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:05:35 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Sue Blake , "Michael P. Sale" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) References: <01bd9a26$571e9a20$3c06bccc@708644668> <19980618095950.51306@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980618095950.51306@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:59:50AM +1000 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 09:59:50AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > It's not fun to take care over an answer and find that the same > question is still asked, as if it wasn't worth your trouble answering > in the first place. Tell me about it. Case in point: A few (3 or 4 I think) months ago there was a spate of Year 2000 questions on -questions. Getting bored of wading through these, I put together various bits and pieces and created the FreeBSD Y2K web page where these things are addressed. Once, sometimes twice a day someone comes into -questions and asks "Is FreeBSD Y2K compliant?" (or a variant on that theme). At least now they're generally just given the URL in a one or two line message and it's left at that. But it is disheartening to know that they didn't bother checking the site, the search engine or the mailing list archives first. N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 15:23:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26575 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26423 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14168; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:30:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980618223059.28822@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:30:59 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Michael P. Sale" , Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) References: <01bd9a6f$a829c900$4806bccc@708644668> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <01bd9a6f$a829c900$4806bccc@708644668>; from Michael P. Sale on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:14:58PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 09:14:58PM -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: > When posting to a newsgroup such as questions, anyone with any sense wants > to have looked everywhere and done everything possible before going to the > list. ( I think most of us appreciate the time many question answerers spend > there) The problem with that again is that the information is VERY HARD to > dig out and track down. It's not like linux with lots of books and > references that are handy and can be gone through before posting. > For someone that does not have hours (literally) to do such searching, this > process becomes not a process of fun and adventure, but pain and agony. Not > all newbies are going to stick through that pain and agony simply because > they read about what a powerfull secure OS FreeBSD is. When said newbie finally gets the answer (either because they've worked it out for themselves, or because someone's provided them with sufficient pointers (or even a working solution)) do they then write it up and contribute it back to FreeBSD? [ Forgive me, I'm about to reminisce ] The first time I set up user PPP it took me a couple of days. There were no user PPP entries in the handbook and the man page was considerably worse than it is now. Thanks to help from a few people on the mailing list I got things running. About a month later I submitted a plain text handbook entry for it. Jordan asked me if I could format it using LinuxDoc. Using the other documents in the Handbook as templates I managed to do that, and it was then committed for me. It was short, incomplete, and only really handled the specific case that I was dealing with, but it was a start. Almost immediately I got people mailing me with suggestions, questions and additions, and the section was improved. By my count 11 other people have worked on that document since I submitted it 2 years ago, and it doesn't resemble my original writing much. But it was a start, and it allowed other people (who perhaps didn't have time to write something from scratch, but who could work on someone else's foundation) to improve it. The point? Well, apart from the fact I'm a really, really great guy :-), to paraphrase _Ask not what your documentation can do for you, ask what you can do for your documentation_. If you find something unclear in the FAQ or Handbook then try and improve it. Messages like "This is unclear" don't really help. Suggestions that include alternatives (preferably already marked up so the person who commits it just has to go "Yeah, that makes sense, .") help move us forward. It's generally acknowledged that things aren't perfect. Pointing this out doesn't really get us anywhere. People actually doing something about it is what we need.[1] N [1] That's not directed specifically at you, more a plea to everyone else on the mailing list. You are needed. If you've understood something that you thought was poorly documented, *please* put finger to keyboard and submit improvements. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 15:23:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26613 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:23:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26509 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10240; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:58:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980618215844.62661@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:58:44 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Sue Blake , Nik Clayton Cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pine and Pico References: <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980615232720.007f66f0@mx.serv.net> <19980617002803.07527@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980616123420.007ede10@mx.serv.net> <19980617002151.21641@nothing-going-on.org> <19980617180012.64598@welearn.com.au> <19980617205005.51409@nothing-going-on.org> <19980618101150.14704@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980618101150.14704@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:11:50AM +1000 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 10:11:50AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > And, when you think about it, you only pass the parameters when you > > 'invoke' the program. > > Sure, it all makes good sense. It's just that people like you seem to > have the ability to pull the correct word out of the air and then go find > it. I usually work out half a dozen synonyms and then find the manual > writer has used yet another :-) When I find it, I go "oh yeah, come to > think of it, that sounds like the word a computery person would use" It's a skill that comes with experience -- I think. After a while you have learnt enough that the interconnections between what you know spark new associations. I know of no magic bullet for this problem, short of investing a lot of time and effort in coming up with lots of synonyms for terms and conducting 'user interviews' to work out what terms they use. I've done this for a couple of websites I've worked on to try and make the pages easily found when indexed by search engines. It can be a very long job, and not one that any Unix has traditionally accomplished. Two other things spring to mind. First, the information Tim was looking for was not buried too deeply within the manual pages (as I say, ~ 75 lines into sh(1)) and it is findable with some cursory digging. It helps if you glance/skim through manual pages for unfamiliar pieces of software. You won't take it all in, but you will get an overview of what it can do. Later, when you're trying to get it to do something you go "Ah, I remember reading about that." and can go digging for the info armed with a bit more knowledge. The second is the risk of being blind to the information that's available to you. A little anecdote which may illustrate this; Yesterday I was called over at work by one of the secretaries who was putting together a Powerpoint presentation. Someone else had worked on the presentation before her (and wasn't around) and they'd added some shadow to some text. She was trying to remove it, and couldn't work out how. The button that *she* used to add/remove shadow from the text wasn't working. Not being overly familiar with this particular aspect of Powerpoint, I immediately pulled up the help and searched for "shadow". A couple of useful items came up, one labelled "Removing shadows". Following that information, it transpires that there are two types of Powerpoint shadows, one on the text, and on the *box* that the text is in. She was turning off the text shadow, but was not affecting the box shadow. 2 mouse clicks later and she's thanking me effusively. Now, leaving aside for the moment that this behaviour is somewhat surprising (I wouldn't have expected Powerpoint to have two different shadow types), she had access to all the information she needed to fix the problem herself. But she was so convinced that she knew how it worked that she didn't bother to check the help before calling me over (and destroying a quarter-hours worth of careful database schema I'd been mulling over in my mind -- such is life). I think this may happen to people new to Unix quite a lot. Because Unix doesn't behave the way they expect in many respects, they try to solve problems using the same approach they've used in the DOS/Windows/Mac world. Sometimes this works (but is sub-optimal), other times it's just not feasible. I can certainly remember this happening to me on my first exposure to Unix. The notion, for example, that I could have several programs running at the same time *from the console* without needing to run a windowing system was quite startling. Of course, I didn't know enough to call it the console then either! > > > There isn't a glossary anywhere, is there? > > > > Probably, but you'll need to shell[1] out some money. I would imagine that > > O'Reilly do a decent shell programming book which probably has a glossary. > > I don't know that a shell programming glossary would be enough, but it > would cover a lot of what I'm missing. I suspect that a lot of the > language that is used, in man pages and general communication about > problems and how things work, is language that is familiar to C > programmers. Most of the books I've seen show how-to, but skimp on > important concepts and definitions in order to be more appealing. Unless you've got specific counter examples, just about anything by O'Reilly is good, but assumes some experience. I think they do a _What to do when you can't find your System Administrator_ which is excellent. The _Dummies guide to Unix_ is, despite the title, also very good. N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 15:28:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27543 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nash.pr.mcs.net (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27531 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@nash.pr.mcs.net) Received: (from alex@localhost) by nash.pr.mcs.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA18321; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:26:47 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alex) Message-Id: <199806182226.RAA18321@nash.pr.mcs.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:26:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Alex Nash Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... To: luomat+FreeBSD@luomat.peak.org cc: fewtch@serv.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806181637.MAA27806@luomat.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jun, Timothy J Luoma wrote: >> Win95 is the only OS that supports all my hardware, and for >> certain operations is the fastest (it definitely boots the quickest >> of the 3 OS's, BSD second, Win NT third) > > Well Win95 should reboot fast, given all the the times it has to reboot (not > a flame, just a fact.... many/most changes under Win95 require a reboot to > update the system). > > BSD does take quite awhile to boot... I wonder how much of it might be > trimmed down if a custom kernel was built to the specifics of only what > hardware was on the machine. Building a custom kernel will certainly reduce the boot time, as will removing any unnecessary daemons. My 486/100 laptop boots up in 41 seconds (timed until the login: prompt appeared), and provides mail services equivalent to MS Exchange, a secure shell service, and assorted services courtesy of inetd (FTP, telnet, finger etc.). My Pentium II 233MHz takes about 43 seconds to load Windows 95 (timed until the cursor actually became usable -- getting a GUI with an hourglass doesn't count), and provides only one service: SMB file sharing. Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 16:03:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03739 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03719 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup640.serv.net [207.207.65.40]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA14999; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980618160302.007ed230@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:03:02 -0700 To: Timothy J Luoma From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806181637.MAA27806@luomat.peak.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Well Win95 should reboot fast, given all the the times it has to reboot (not >a flame, just a fact.... many/most changes under Win95 require a reboot to >update the system). Actually, Windows NT also requires frequent reboots for any software changes (many believe this not to be true, but installing new software under NT means a reboot as often as it does under Win95. NT is even worse than 95 when it comes to drivers, you *ALWAYS* have to reboot when adding a hardware driver, period, whereas sometimes Win95 will dynamically load the driver and continue cranking along). I think it's a matter of poor design on MS's part. You gotta admit, it's improving though - try to remember how often you had to reboot DOS and Win 3.1, or Win 3.0... I don't even want to think about it. Sometimes a Win 3.1 system would just spontaneously reboot itself or drop to DOS instantly without warning. Gotta admit I've never seen Win95 do that unless related to a serious hardware problem. >BSD does take quite awhile to boot... I wonder how much of it might be >trimmed down if a custom kernel was built to the specifics of only what >hardware was on the machine. It isn't too bad... and a custom kernel DOES help (from experience). What seems to take the longest is probing the ISA bus for hard drives, and any bootup programs you may have added on like 'routed', etc. Some (like routed) seem to sit there forever for some reason. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 16:14:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04946 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04941 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup640.serv.net [207.207.65.40]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16019; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980618161412.007f6100@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:14:12 -0700 To: Malartre From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35896B81.D140985A@aei.ca> References: <3.0.5.32.19980618064338.007f1100@mx.serv.net> <199806181637.MAA27806@luomat.peak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:33 PM 6/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >Ok, when you boot with the GENERIC kernel, freebsd use a lot of time to >find all hardware that does'nt exist and waste 15-20 second on a scsi >timout or something like that. If the system has no SCSI hardware at all, FreeBSD will detect this and waste no further time. However, probing for each hard drive on the ISA bus can take some time (which can easily be eliminated by building a custom kernel). >When you remove all those scsi thing or >than you customize it, it take *less* than my win95 to boot! Remember >than win95 seems speedy because there is a beautiful win95.bmp presented >to you ;-) On a well-maintained (defragged) Win95 system, with minimal hardware to check/detect/load drivers for at boot time, Win95 boots quite fast (if it boots slowly on some systems, usually this can be remedied by changing certain things). But the fastest booting OS of all is plain old MS-DOS, we all have to agree on that :-) Then again, some argue MS-DOS isn't even an OS, just a fancy program loader. To some degree, I agree with this. It doesn't manage hardware at all, one of the basic requirements for an OS. Without external programs like himem.sys and emm386.exe, MS-DOS only knows what the BIOS knows, and no more, and can't even go beyond 640k. P.S... why do I always forget to hit "reply to all" instead of just reply, then I have to manually type freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org in the CC: box. Got to get into the habit :-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 16:19:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05453 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05443 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup640.serv.net [207.207.65.40]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16509; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980618161851.007f0620@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:18:51 -0700 To: Alex Nash From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806182226.RAA18321@nash.pr.mcs.net> References: <199806181637.MAA27806@luomat.peak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:26 PM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >My 486/100 laptop boots up in 41 seconds (timed until the login: prompt >appeared), and provides mail services equivalent to MS Exchange, a >secure shell service, and assorted services courtesy of inetd (FTP, >telnet, finger etc.). My Pentium II 233MHz takes about 43 seconds to >load Windows 95 (timed until the cursor actually became usable -- >getting a GUI with an hourglass doesn't count), and provides only one >service: SMB file sharing. It shouldn't be taking that long. You need to work on tuning and configuring it. I almost wish you lived near me, I'm an *expert* at this, and my Win95 boots in about 15 seconds on my P200MMX (when my SparQ drive is turned off and its not probing for it... this adds a few extra seconds). BTW, CPU speed has very little effect on boot time for any OS. Boot time is more controlled by what drivers are being loaded (and how the driver interacts with the OS at boot time), the speed of the hard drive, and how much RAM is in the machine. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 16:31:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06882 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:31:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06877 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23777; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:30:47 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980619093043.11899@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:30:43 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Timothy J Luoma Cc: Tim Parkinson , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: sneaky editors [was: I sussed my NIC problems] References: <000501bd9a8c$5aeef2b0$92194798@stimpy> <199806181630.MAA27404@luomat.peak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199806181630.MAA27404@luomat.peak.org>; from Timothy J Luoma on Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 12:30:01PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 12:30:01PM -0400, Timothy J Luoma wrote: > > > That, I believe was the root of the further problems I was having after > > installing a new net card. Maybe I should read the pico docs, and see if > > there is an option to turn off word wrap. > > FYI the -w flag turns off word wrap for pico > > HOWEVER it doesn't mean that REALLY long line (256 chars, IIRC) won't be > wrapped anyway (a major hassle esp if you want to edit your .newsrc or some > such which may have very long lines). > > For 'root' I have actually aliased pico to 'pico -w' because it is easier to > wrap test using ^j than it is to have it wrap when you don't want it to! I used to have ee as the default editor for root, and quickly changed after it ruined a few files, possibly because of sneaky line wrapping without my consent, or maybe it turned tabs into spaces or something. Instead of identifying the problem and finding out whether ee's behaviour could be changed I simply switched over to a more familiar editor. So if you're editing important files with a simple editor like ee and unexplained things happen, check the condition of the file you've edited just in case there is some validity in my suspicions. If you're really keen, you might even find something in the man page. Having better editor and a short temper, I didn't get that keen :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 16:31:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06989 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06961 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:31:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup640.serv.net [207.207.65.40]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA17771 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980618163114.007f9e90@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:31:14 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Live and in color? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I read somewhere that until recently this list had very little traffic. I had to laugh a bit at this, because I feel my presence here has livened up this list somewhat. Good or bad? Who knows, depends on how you look at it... I love discussing controversial issues, and can get a little heated over things at times - that's just my style, on Usenet as well. I hope nobody minds any extra traffic generated by my posts. It's all in the service of having fun and learning things. I never hold grudges, and many of my posts are tongue-in-cheek. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 16:34:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07322 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:34:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07317 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup640.serv.net [207.207.65.40]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA18050; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980618163410.007f5790@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:34:10 -0700 To: Geoff Jukema , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: X & kde : lovin it! Cc: "Marcel Mason" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980617083733.007bebe0@silk.net> References: <002e01bd997f$c878d3e0$c62ff7c7@morrigan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I tried installing KDE, but decided setting it up wasn't worth the effort to me (I do a lot of stuff in text mode anyway). So I mainly use Afterstep these days, and occasionally fvwm when I miss the Win95 interface :-)... anything but the default X interface is an improvement, no matter how unconfigurable it may be. Windowmaker looks interesting too, but I haven't really gotten a grasp on it yet. At 08:37 AM 6/17/98 -0700, Geoff Jukema wrote: >>Makes me happier still, there seem to be a fairly large number of {k}app's >>available and I still *do* need to get some regular work done. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 16:46:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08872 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08867 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup640.serv.net [207.207.65.40]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA19116; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:39:03 -0700 To: David Wolfskill , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' In-Reply-To: <199806171941.MAA05868@pau-amma.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:41 PM 6/17/98 -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: >>Why would there be nothing else around? You could stick gunzip and a >>gzip'ed version of ee on a single floppy disk and take it with you wherever >>you go, or probably ee or a similar editor would fit on a floppy just fine >>uncompressed. > >Because you're working on a system that doesn't *have* a floppy drive >(such as my Sun 3/60). Or it has one, but it's broken. Or the device >driver for the floppy is acting weird. > >(Floppies are actually rather unnatural I/O devices to some of us....) Point well taken. >Maybe that's OK, if you're *always* going to be using a set of >homogeneous systems... but that's not the reality many of us live in. It *does* all depend on what environment you're working in. Most PC's have a 3 1/2" 1.44 MB floppy drive (at least those that an administrator cares a little less about security on), it's become a ubiquitous standard, as do Macs. Other platforms, maybe not. >If you want to thus restrict yourself, go ahead... but I hate to see >someone do something like that without at least being aware of some >consequences that, in my experience, are likely to be encountered. OK, let me ask you this. Are there any other editors that are as ubiquitous as vi that may be a *little* easier to learn and use? Most machines have Pine/Pico installed as well, don't they? -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 16:47:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08977 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08968 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:47:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup640.serv.net [207.207.65.40]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA19129; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980618164630.007ebe30@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:30 -0700 To: "Michael P. Sale" , "Sue Blake" From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) Cc: In-Reply-To: <01bd9a26$571e9a20$3c06bccc@708644668> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just have one thing to say about this: There *IS* a need for a 'newbie-questions@freebsd.org' list. Anyone reading this who can add mailing lists to freebsd.org, please give this some serious thought. Newbies are generally those who are in their first few weeks or months of learning BSD. Do the folks in freebsd-questions REALLY want to answer a question like 'I pressed Ctrl-K in ee and it messed up my text. Is there any way to get it back?' or 'How do I make my sound card work under FreeBSD'? Reasonable questions for raw newbies who haven't learned to rtfm yet, and that deserve either a reply to a direct link to an appropriate manual section, or an answer. Sure, RTFM is the most important lesson for a newbie to learn, but at least a little extra niceness might be presented if answered from a newbies list, rather than "You moron, go read the manual or shut the f*$&#($ up and quit spamming our list." At 12:30 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: >Again, I really like the list the way it is and have said so more than once. >The issue for me is not your managing the list, but the need for another >list for newbie questions. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 17:05:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12461 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12447 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:05:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12191 for newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:05:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:05:13 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806190005.RAA12191@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:39:03 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >OK, let me ask you this. Are there any other editors that are as >ubiquitous as vi that may be a *little* easier to learn and use? Most >machines have Pine/Pico installed as well, don't they? A couple of things before I give my (probably unsatisfactory) answer: * I'm still fairly new with FreeBSD, so I'm not all that certain of "norms" in the community with respect to that question. * The pine/pico set isn't installed by default, near as I can tell: pau-amma[2]% which pine pico emacs jove ed ex sed /usr/local/bin/pine /usr/local/bin/pico /usr/local/bin/emacs jove: Command not found. /bin/ed /usr/bin/ex /usr/bin/sed pau-amma[3]% (On this system, /usr/local actually resides on a server; it's not on the machine in question.) * I've been using vi since '86... and I've become accustomed to it -- to the point that ee (for example) drives me batty. * There have been times when I've need to edit a system file in single-user mode... and I couldn't use vi (or it would take to long to set up the environment for it to be able to work), so I just used ex. A very solid, thorough grounding in regular expressions can prove exceedingly helpful -- and since "ex" commands are what you execute in "vi" if you type a ":" before the command, I was able to get the job done quickly & reboot the system. * All that said, I work as a UNIX systems administrator; it isn't necessarily the case that you will have even vaguely similar concerns. As for the "unsatisfactory answer" -- probably not. Think about what makes an editor "easy to use" for you, and think about the circumstances where you're likely to need to use it. The fancier the editor, the more support it needs from the runtime environment (generally). And I'll guarantee that "vi" is about the "friendliest" editor I have on the home Suns.... Maybe someday I'll tell the story about teaching the young woman (who later married me) how to use "vi" after she had been used to using the editor on an Apple ][.... :-} (Short version -- she got Real Upset with me for a couple of days... then got used to it.... and now prefers vi to GUI things. And she's a biologist, not someone who plays with computers all the time.) Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 17:38:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16324 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:38:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16294 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:38:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA24048; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:38:31 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980619103827.10661@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:38:27 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: "Michael P. Sale" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) References: <01bd9a26$571e9a20$3c06bccc@708644668> <3.0.5.32.19980618164630.007ebe30@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980618164630.007ebe30@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 04:46:30PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 12:30 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: > > >Again, I really like the list the way it is and have said so more than once. > >The issue for me is not your managing the list, but the need for another > >list for newbie questions. > On Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 04:46:30PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > I just have one thing to say about this: There *IS* a need for a > 'newbie-questions@freebsd.org' list. Anyone reading this who can add > mailing lists to freebsd.org, please give this some serious thought. > Newbies are generally those who are in their first few weeks or months of > learning BSD. Do the folks in freebsd-questions REALLY want to answer a > question like 'I pressed Ctrl-K in ee and it messed up my text. Is there > any way to get it back?' or 'How do I make my sound card work under > FreeBSD'? Reasonable questions for raw newbies who haven't learned to rtfm > yet, and that deserve either a reply to a direct link to an appropriate > manual section, or an answer. Sure, RTFM is the most important lesson for > a newbie to learn, but at least a little extra niceness might be presented > if answered from a newbies list, rather than "You moron, go read the manual > or shut the f*$&#($ up and quit spamming our list." > I'm going to avoid commenting directly on your proposal, and ask you (or anyone) to formulate it a little differently to make discussion more productive. What you're suggesting here is a mailing list which would contain 1. newbies asking particular types of questions, and 2. experts answering those questions. The technical provision of mailing list itself is a minor point which we can disregard for the time being. The main issue here is what would happen on the list, who would do it, and how. I'll take the newbies side of it as granted, assuming for now that newbies will use it in the way you suggest. The main thing you want from such a list is a supply of experienced support volunteers whose behaviour on the list will suit what you have in mind, which, from what you say, is not quite the behaviour they exhibit in freebsd-questions. This is the part you have to sort out first. Who will support the list? How will they be trained to behave in a suitable manner with respect to newbies? How will they be caused to behave so? Will they know what they're talking about, and how would we know? Will there be enough volunteer helpers? Will they spend enough time monitoring the list to answer questions promptly and give careful answers? Will the novelty wear off for them, and if so what happens then? How will we maintain quality in the advice we are given? How will we cause them to treat us with greater amounts of patience and respect? What will this overall contribute to the FreeBSD community, and whose labour will produce it? The big issue here is, what's in it for the support people? Why would they want to answer the kind of questions that would arise in the manner that your proposal requires? What would make the really good ones prefer to give long answers to a concentrated stream of simple repetitive and uninteresting questions from people who have grown to rely on special attention, when they can get a more interesting mixed bag to answer in freebsd-questions? What do we newbies have to offer them? Where's the what's in it for me factor? I don't mean this to sound negative, though it probably does. It's just to provoke some answers to the questions that need to be answered before any others can be considered, before real planning can lead to a proposal that will be taken seriously. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 17:43:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17095 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:43:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17090 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3h-16.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.113]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17055; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:43:19 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980618174030.0069e040@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:40:30 -0700 To: Tim Gerchmez , Geoff Jukema , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: X & kde : lovin it! Cc: "Marcel Mason" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980618163410.007f5790@mx.serv.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980617083733.007bebe0@silk.net> <002e01bd997f$c878d3e0$c62ff7c7@morrigan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:34 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > >I tried installing KDE, but decided setting it up wasn't worth the effort >to me (I do a lot of stuff in text mode anyway). So I mainly use Afterstep >these days, and occasionally fvwm when I miss the Win95 interface :-)... >anything but the default X interface is an improvement, no matter how >unconfigurable it may be. Windowmaker looks interesting too, but I haven't >really gotten a grasp on it yet. Hmmm, I haven't seemed to get Windowmaker running well too. For some reason the icons don't show. I also run KDE, and I love it! Anyways, I was wondering if there was a mailing list about X and stuff for FreeBSD? If not, let's make one...a list discussion about window managers, configurations, and software for the X enviroment. Anyways, just a thought. Joey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 18:40:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24055 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24050 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (tulip19.verinet.com [199.45.181.211]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA26377; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:40:05 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02889; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:40:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:40:03 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199806190140.TAA02889@struct.> To: luomat+FreeBSD@luomat.peak.org Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806181637.MAA27806@luomat.peak.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Win95 is the only OS that supports all my hardware, and for > > certain operations is the fastest (it definitely boots the quickest > > of the 3 OS's, BSD second, Win NT third) > > Well Win95 should reboot fast, given all the the times it has to reboot (not > a flame, just a fact.... many/most changes under Win95 require a reboot to > update the system). > > BSD does take quite awhile to boot... I wonder how much of it might be > trimmed down if a custom kernel was built to the specifics of only what > hardware was on the machine. If your not up to building your own kernel yet you can get some of the boot time improvement by removing unnecessary devices from the boot configuration. The wd1 (secondary IDE controller) has a lengthy probe for some reason. I have seen this take as long as thirty seconds with no wd1 devices on a mtech 486/133 w/PCI. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 18:53:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25834 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:53:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25827 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:53:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24257; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:52:52 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980619115247.49675@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:52:47 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: David Wolfskill , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <199806171941.MAA05868@pau-amma.whistle.com> <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 04:39:03PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 04:39:03PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 12:41 PM 6/17/98 -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > > >>Why would there be nothing else around? You could stick gunzip and a > >>gzip'ed version of ee on a single floppy disk and take it with you wherever > >>you go, or probably ee or a similar editor would fit on a floppy just fine > >>uncompressed. > > > >Because you're working on a system that doesn't *have* a floppy drive > >(such as my Sun 3/60). Or it has one, but it's broken. Or the device > >driver for the floppy is acting weird. > > > >(Floppies are actually rather unnatural I/O devices to some of us....) > > > Point well taken. > > > >Maybe that's OK, if you're *always* going to be using a set of > >homogeneous systems... but that's not the reality many of us live in. > > > It *does* all depend on what environment you're working in. Most PC's have > a 3 1/2" 1.44 MB floppy drive (at least those that an administrator cares a > little less about security on), it's become a ubiquitous standard, as do > Macs. Other platforms, maybe not. True, but consider how PCs are used these days. My server has no need for a floppy drive, CD, mouse, sound card, etc. It just needs a hard disk a screen and a keyboard, so that's what it's got. I'm not going to want to boot off a floppy, so why should I leave that option available to any potential intruder or pokey visitor? If it was needed for some emergency I haven't thought of, I could temporarily grab the floppy drive from my workstation and plug it in, I suppose, but I wouldn't go to that trouble just to use an editor. > >If you want to thus restrict yourself, go ahead... but I hate to see > >someone do something like that without at least being aware of some > >consequences that, in my experience, are likely to be encountered. > > > OK, let me ask you this. Are there any other editors that are as > ubiquitous as vi that may be a *little* easier to learn and use? It's not just a matter of being ubiquitous. You also need something you can use when the system is so screwed that the only thing you can mount is the root filesystem. >From what David said, it sounds like even vi might be hard to use then, which I thought was not the case. It sounds like I'm even more justified in my protest that since I can use ed I can totally ignore vi :-) As an aside... ed reminds me of an editor I used many moons ago on a VAX, maybe it had the same name. I wrote a 4000 word report with it, and used it every day for a few weeks to enter and analyse data from a huge survey with SPSS-X. Having never been near any computer before, I had no idea that other editors existed, and nobody else realised I was using this editor until the job was nearly over, so they didn't tell me there was better available. I didn't feel at all deprived at the time. It goes to show how important familiarity and expectations are in perceptions of ease of use. > Most machines have Pine/Pico installed as well, don't they? No. Pine is regarded by some as a beginner's mail app, real men use elm and all that jazz, but mutt is becoming the most popular these days. None of these are installed by default. ISPs who provide shell accounts ususally have pine, and therefore pico, available. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 19:16:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29303 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.bigskytel.com (root@dns.bigskytel.com [209.19.155.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29296 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from mlduke (ts002d10.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.46]) by dns.bigskytel.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09329; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:15:05 -0600 Message-ID: <3589CAB8.7A66@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:19:36 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Live and in color? References: <3.0.5.32.19980618163114.007f9e90@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: It's all in the > service of having fun and learning things. I never hold grudges, and many > of my posts are tongue-in-cheek. Glad you cleared that up. I'll hold off on the delete key and read your next couple of posts. ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 19:17:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29501 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:17:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.impulse.net (mail.impulse.net [204.188.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA29493 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@merchantsnet.com) Received: (qmail 29843 invoked from network); 19 Jun 1998 02:16:59 -0000 Received: from sb1-61.impulse.net (HELO 708644668) (204.188.6.61) by mail.impulse.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 1998 02:16:59 -0000 From: "Michael P. Sale" To: "Nik Clayton" Cc: Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:12:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9b27$a772f280$3d06bccc@708644668> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Tell me about it. > >Case in point: A few (3 or 4 I think) months ago there was a spate of >Year 2000 questions on -questions. Getting bored of wading through these, >I put together various bits and pieces and created the FreeBSD Y2K web >page where these things are addressed. > >Once, sometimes twice a day someone comes into -questions and asks "Is >FreeBSD Y2K compliant?" (or a variant on that theme). At least now they're >generally just given the URL in a one or two line message and it's left >at that. But it is disheartening to know that they didn't bother checking >the site, the search engine or the mailing list archives first. Nik, I could kiss you. Not really. This is my point. I can only guess that most newbie questions get continually repeated. As such, good things such as web pages with detailed newbie type information would occur more often and, more importantly, be geared towards the newbie. To me, this is a good thing. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 19:34:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01994 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:34:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.impulse.net (mail.impulse.net [204.188.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01988 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@merchantsnet.com) Received: (qmail 1360 invoked from network); 19 Jun 1998 02:33:59 -0000 Received: from sb1-61.impulse.net (HELO 708644668) (204.188.6.61) by mail.impulse.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 1998 02:33:59 -0000 From: "Michael P. Sale" To: "Nik Clayton" Cc: Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:29:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9b2a$07d9fc20$3d06bccc@708644668> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >When said newbie finally gets the answer (either because they've worked >it out for themselves, or because someone's provided them with sufficient >pointers (or even a working solution)) do they then write it up and >contribute it back to FreeBSD? I doubt it. I would guess there are three reasons for this though. a. Fear of looking silly and don't think they can really contribute (yet) b. Burried in work with no time c. Slugs > >[ Forgive me, I'm about to reminisce ] > > >If you find something unclear in the FAQ or Handbook then try and improve >it. Messages like "This is unclear" don't really help. Suggestions that >include alternatives (preferably already marked up so the person who commits >it just has to go "Yeah, that makes sense, .") help move >us forward. > >It's generally acknowledged that things aren't perfect. Pointing this out >doesn't really get us anywhere. People actually doing something about it >is what we need.[1] I agree. I actually spent waaaaaayyyyyy too much time in a discussion with the list (Sue) when I was having trouble with a portion in Gregs book. After much wrasslin, I said "hey, if no one else see's it the way I do, I'll let it go". And I did. I still think that part of the book is pretty bad, but I can't argue a case without backup and if Greg was monitoring the thread he didn't speak up. I suppose that I should have taken the case straight to Greg, but I assumed (we all know where that gets you) that he was probably watching a little and as a newbie I was suffering from #1 above. Anyhow, I'm not really sure where your thought was headed. I doubt anyone disagrees with you. I just suspect they suffer one of the problems listed. :-( I also suspect that a newbies-questions group may allow some of the thoughts and input you are looking for. Free thinking unafraid questions tend to generate more thought and input than anything else I've found. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 19:36:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02387 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.impulse.net (mail.impulse.net [204.188.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02373 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@merchantsnet.com) Received: (qmail 1568 invoked from network); 19 Jun 1998 02:36:11 -0000 Received: from sb1-61.impulse.net (HELO 708644668) (204.188.6.61) by mail.impulse.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 1998 02:36:11 -0000 From: "Michael P. Sale" To: Subject: P.S. Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:31:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9b2a$5be4e0a0$3d06bccc@708644668> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What's up with this list. It seems to be taking a minimum of about an hour for me to see my messages posted. I don't remember it being this slow before. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 20:27:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09682 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09677 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:27:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id XAA01592; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:27:24 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts002d10.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.46]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id XAA06881; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3589DBA5.4E6@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:31:49 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG CC: jdn@acp.qiv.com Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) References: <01bd9b27$a772f280$3d06bccc@708644668> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael P. Sale wrote: > > >Tell me about it. Have been waiting for this subject to arise, Y2K that is. Bored on questions about is FBSD Y2K compliant is understandable. Because whether it is or not doesn't mean squat. The systems we have allowed our lives to depend upon are not. I would suggest a look (a very close one) at: http://www.garynorth.com Do not make the fatal mistake (that is intended in the very literal sense re fatal as to you and yours meaning everybody reading this) of taking Mr. North lightly. He has been roundly flamed for being a fanatic. About 3-4 years ago. Still is by many, but the mainstream is catching up _rapidly_. He recently said he would _be_ mainstream by Nov 99. It's now looking to be so much sooner than that. When he is the panic will be here. When that happens, adaquate preparations will be nearly if not completely impossible. After coming up to date (this intended for the few who might not be) take a look at the forums link. Many intelligent people there with a lot of valuable information to share. ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jun 18 20:36:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10902 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-234.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10873 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA16090; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:35:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:35:05 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: "Michael P. Sale" cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: P.S. In-Reply-To: <01bd9b2a$5be4e0a0$3d06bccc@708644668> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mine are going intermittenly, some quickly, some after a while.. weird.. james On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Michael P. Sale wrote: > What's up with this list. It seems to be taking a minimum of about an hour > for me to see my messages posted. I don't remember it being this slow > before. > > Mike > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 01:01:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15717 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:01:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (cc344191-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.83.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15636 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:00:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Received: by luomat.peak.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id DAA25353 for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 03:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806190733.DAA25353@luomat.peak.org> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 03:33:48 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: P.S. References: Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Author: James Original-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: > Mine are going intermittenly, some quickly, some after a while.. weird.. It most likely depends on the volume that the mail host is seeing at the time your message hits. As someone who is on most of the FBSD lists, I can say they generate a LOT of traffic and sending it all must be a bear! TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 02:02:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24817 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA24779 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup400.serv.net [207.207.70.1]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA27645; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980619020219.007fc9c0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:02:19 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: David Wolfskill , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980619115247.49675@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> <199806171941.MAA05868@pau-amma.whistle.com> <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:52 AM 6/19/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >True, but consider how PCs are used these days. My server has no need for >a floppy drive, CD, mouse, sound card, etc. It just needs a hard disk a >screen and a keyboard, so that's what it's got. You had to have installed a master boot record on the hard drive at some point, and set up some networking software. So you must have had a floppy drive of some sort in there at one time or another. I don't know about your PC, but mine is in an Enlight case with most internal peripherals installed on sliding runners. If I wanted to set it up that way, I could slide in a disk drive, hook it up, install some software, unhook the drive, then slide it back out again and close up the case in under 3 minutes (screwless). So anyway, if we're talking emergencies, although it would be both easier and faster to use vi, a method of accessing a floppy disk could be achieved, although it might take far more time than just using vi would have. Therefore, claims that learning vi is a 'necessity' are overstated bunk, IMO. Human beings are endlessly resourceful, and if I needed a way to edit a file on a system without using vi, I would find a way. >I'm not going to want to >boot off a floppy, so why should I leave that option available to any >potential intruder or pokey visitor? If you're away long enough, and your PC's case isn't sealed with steel rivets or locked together (even locks can be picked, however), they can get inside it within one or two minutes, faster for someone experienced at it. *True* security involves taking some extraordinary measures that I doubt you have done (although you haven't said one way or another) P.S... Why don't you think the need to boot off a floppy may come up some time? BSD may be very stable, but if you think it's PERFECT, think again. If the network dies on the BSD end (say a configuration file or two gets corrupted), you may need that floppy. >It's not just a matter of being ubiquitous. You also need something you >can use when the system is so screwed that the only thing you can mount >is the root filesystem. Vi is the only editor available on the root filesystem of most Unix systems? BTW, who ever said I planned to become a Unix system administrator for other people's PC's? It's almost been assumed that's the case during this whole discussion. For chrissakes, I'm a newbie playing with a free OS on a personal machine at home. Perhaps in a week (although probably not) I'll erase it off my hard drive and go try GEOS or FreeDOS or some other OS instead, just for kicks and for the learning experience. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 02:39:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00817 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA00806 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:38:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25383; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:38:41 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980619193835.65211@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:38:35 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: David Wolfskill , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> <199806171941.MAA05868@pau-amma.whistle.com> <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> <19980619115247.49675@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980619020219.007fc9c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980619020219.007fc9c0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 02:02:19AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 02:02:19AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 11:52 AM 6/19/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > >True, but consider how PCs are used these days. My server has no need for > >a floppy drive, CD, mouse, sound card, etc. It just needs a hard disk a > >screen and a keyboard, so that's what it's got. > > You had to have installed a master boot record on the hard drive at some > point, and set up some networking software. So you must have had a floppy > drive of some sort in there at one time or another. Not necessarily. In fact, this is a SCSI disk that was already bootable when it was put into the machine. > I don't know about your PC, but mine is in an Enlight case with most > internal peripherals installed on sliding runners. Sliding runners?! Wow, no mod cons like that round here. You need the skill and patience of a brain surgeon to move any of my hardware around without the matchboxes and sticky tape that hold it all together crumbling. > If I wanted to set it up that way, I could slide in a disk drive, hook > it up, install some software, unhook the drive, then slide it back out > again and close up the case in under 3 minutes (screwless). We're in different worlds :-) > So anyway, if we're talking emergencies, although it would be both easier > and faster to use vi, a method of accessing a floppy disk could be > achieved, although it might take far more time than just using vi would > have. Therefore, claims that learning vi is a 'necessity' are overstated > bunk, IMO. Human beings are endlessly resourceful, and if I needed a way > to edit a file on a system without using vi, I would find a way. I agree. Like I said before, if you need an editor and you can't mount /usr you still don't have to use vi. Either use ed, or get very good at combining cat, grep, echo, piping and redirection (which is how I had to edit my fstab once, hehe, not funny at the time). > >I'm not going to want to boot off a floppy, so why should I leave that > >option available to any potential intruder or pokey visitor? > > If you're away long enough, and your PC's case isn't sealed with steel > rivets or locked together (even locks can be picked, however), they can get > inside it within one or two minutes, faster for someone experienced at it. > *True* security involves taking some extraordinary measures that I doubt > you have done (although you haven't said one way or another) Sure, but I wasn't talking about security here. I was saying to myself: Self, the only person who's going to want to use a floppy is some smart-arse visitor who thinks he'll quickly boot off his floppy, and play around so why pay $50 for a floppy drive? > P.S... Why don't you think the need to boot off a floppy may come up some > time? BSD may be very stable, but if you think it's PERFECT, think again. > If the network dies on the BSD end (say a configuration file or two gets > corrupted), you may need that floppy. If and when I need it I'll fork over the $50, just like you'll learn vi if and when you need to. I'm not holding my breath, are you? :-) > >It's not just a matter of being ubiquitous. You also need something you > >can use when the system is so screwed that the only thing you can mount > >is the root filesystem. > > Vi is the only editor available on the root filesystem of most Unix systems? Of course not! If you prefer, you can use ex or ed. > BTW, who ever said I planned to become a Unix system administrator for > other people's PC's? It's almost been assumed that's the case during this > whole discussion. For chrissakes, I'm a newbie playing with a free OS on a > personal machine at home. Perhaps in a week (although probably not) I'll > erase it off my hard drive and go try GEOS or FreeDOS or some other OS > instead, just for kicks and for the learning experience. Awww, don't go saying that! We're all using machines sitting in the family room with a handful of siblings/children/parents queueing to reboot and use their win95, pretending during our brief moments of FreeBSD that we're administering the biggest network in the universe. We know it's like that for the others too, but we can't bring ourselves to say it out loud because nobody else does. It's comfortable this way. Now you've gone and blown our cover :-( Can't you at least pretend, just a little bit, huh? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 05:38:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01283 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:38:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA01271 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup429.serv.net [207.207.70.30]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA05892; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980619053810.007f8a30@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:38:10 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Cc: David Wolfskill , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980619193835.65211@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980619020219.007fc9c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> <199806171941.MAA05868@pau-amma.whistle.com> <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> <19980619115247.49675@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980619020219.007fc9c0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ohhh... all right... We're all working on becoming professional Unix System Administrators, and our goals are working toward that point. Eventually we'll all be making $100,000+/year administrating large *nix networks for major companies like AT&T, Sprint and IBM. Better? ;-) BTW, just an observation... the more I use BSD, the more I come to like it. I wish there was money to be made writing BSD shareware (alas, most of it is free or something similar can be gotten free, and the user base is small compared to Windows) or I'd consider dumping Win95 and NT and just using FreeBSD - every time I use it is like an adventure discovering something new - it's truly exciting (Yes, I'm finally sick to death of 90's cynicism (the decade is almost over, thank goodness), and am speaking from the heart here). I'm a shareware author and write Win32 shareware, for which there is a huge potential market - so I can't lose Win95/NT, unfortunately, unless I want those checks to stop coming in (and being that I'm currently on disability and receiving $458/month, those extra checks come in real handy). Now, would someone get to work on writing a Win32 emulator that runs any and all Windows 95/NT software so I can dump these OS's? Preferably an ex-MS employee who's been on both the Win95 and NT design teams, was fired from Microsoft for using BSD on his machine at work, and holds a serious grudge ;-) Tim At 07:38 PM 6/19/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >> BTW, who ever said I planned to become a Unix system administrator for >> other people's PC's? It's almost been assumed that's the case during this >> whole discussion. For chrissakes, I'm a newbie playing with a free OS on a >> personal machine at home. Perhaps in a week (although probably not) I'll >> erase it off my hard drive and go try GEOS or FreeDOS or some other OS >> instead, just for kicks and for the learning experience. > >Awww, don't go saying that! We're all using machines sitting in the >family room with a handful of siblings/children/parents queueing to >reboot and use their win95, pretending during our brief moments of >FreeBSD that we're administering the biggest network in the universe. >We know it's like that for the others too, but we can't bring ourselves >to say it out loud because nobody else does. It's comfortable this way. >Now you've gone and blown our cover :-( Can't you at least pretend, >just a little bit, huh? > >-- > >Regards, > -*Sue*- -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 05:45:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02741 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:45:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02715 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup429.serv.net [207.207.70.30]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA06189 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980619054457.007f8500@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:44:57 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Current projects... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just got done building my 6th or 7th custom kernel (this includes the non-working ones) and this one works beautifully, and shaves off a full 500K (mostly because of removing all the SCSI support - I have an all-IDE system). I also added PCM support through the PC squeaker (a little-known capability documented in the LINT file in usr/src/sys/i386/conf), so if I can't have sound card support right now, at least I can hear tinny-sounding digital audio through my PC's built in speaker (maybe I'll get a larger speaker). :-) Next project (working on at the moment) - upgrading parts of 2.2.6 to the snapshot release of 3.0 - specifically, bin, proflibs and src. These are downloading at the moment as I type. Hopefully everything will work well together, or a complete reinstall of 2.2.6 might be in order (another custom kernel build will DEFINITELY be in order). From what I've read of v3.0, they've made some MAJOR improvements and bug fixes in the kernel. I can't wait for the stable release, gotta have it now!!! :-) I'll keep y'all informed on how the upgrade goes and if I notice any differences. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 06:47:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15217 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nash.pr.mcs.net (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA15175 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@nash.pr.mcs.net) Received: (from alex@localhost) by nash.pr.mcs.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA22084; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:31:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alex) Message-Id: <199806191331.IAA22084@nash.pr.mcs.net> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:31:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Alex Nash Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... To: fewtch@serv.net cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980618161851.007f0620@mx.serv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jun, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > I almost wish you lived near me, I'm an *expert* at this, > and my Win95 boots in about 15 seconds on my P200MMX (when my SparQ drive > is turned off and its not probing for it... this adds a few extra seconds). My Windows box is an incredibly simplistic setup. Would you care to share what knobs one would have to tweak to cut the boot time by two thirds (shouldn't be a problem for a self-proclaimed expert :)? > BTW, CPU speed has very little effect on boot time for any OS. Nobody claimed that it did. However, memory to memory copies (which are plentiful at boot time) and daemon startup times are highly dependent on CPU/bus speed. > Boot time > is more controlled by what drivers are being loaded (and how the driver > interacts with the OS at boot time), The majority of driver loading time has nothing to do with interaction with the OS, but instead, interaction with the hardware they control. > the speed of the hard drive, I'm glad you brought that up: the Windows machine in question has a fast/wide SCSI drive attached to an Adaptec 2940. The laptop has a wheezing IDE drive which maxes out at about 1.3MB/sec (approximately 5 times slower than the SCSI drive). > and how > much RAM is in the machine. Windows: 64MB FreeBSD: 24MB Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 06:55:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16845 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16828 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup429.serv.net [207.207.70.30]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA10052; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980619065546.007facd0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:55:46 -0700 To: Alex Nash From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806191331.IAA22084@nash.pr.mcs.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980618161851.007f0620@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:31 AM 6/19/98 -0500, you wrote: >On 18 Jun, Tim Gerchmez wrote: >> I almost wish you lived near me, I'm an *expert* at this, >> and my Win95 boots in about 15 seconds on my P200MMX (when my SparQ drive >> is turned off and its not probing for it... this adds a few extra seconds). > >My Windows box is an incredibly simplistic setup. Would you care to >share what knobs one would have to tweak to cut the boot time by two >thirds (shouldn't be a problem for a self-proclaimed expert :)? Sure. First of all, make sure you have a fast hard drive (not really a tweak, but important). Second, buy Helix Software's Nuts and Bolts utility. It includes a defragmenter that actually has some intelligence, putting your system files on the fastest part of the disk (it's far better than the Norton equivalent and actually makes a huge difference - it can double your bootup speed). Third, rebuild your system registry. This can be done manually, or with the aforementioned utility. Win95 loads the entire registry into memory at bootup, and making it smaller will significantly speed boot time. Fourth, trim any drivers you don't need (you'd be surprised how many there are laying around - for example go to My Computer/Control panel/Multimedia, click on the Advanced tab, then click on the + next to Media Control Devices. See anything you don't need? Remove it. Fifth, set your PC to a "Network Server" to increase file caching (if you have the store-bought version of Win95 you need to fix a bug in the registry first, contact me for details if you do). If you have OSR2, Right click on My Computer, go to Properties/Performance/File System, and set your PC to Network Server in the "Typical Role" pulldown box (once again, only if you have OSR2, otherwise you need to fix a bug in the registry). Sixth, set your maximum disk cache size based on the amount of RAM you have (I use MaxFileCache=8192 on a 64 meg machine). Seventh, if you have the original version of Win95 (not OSR2), add the line SMARTDRV 4096 128 to your autoexec.bat file. Eighth, check both autoexec.bat and config.sys for unnecessary files. Win95 boots just fine if neither of them exist at all (or have just that smartdrv line in autoexec.bat). Ninth, turn off the pretty logo that displays while Win95 is loading and you'll shave a second or two off boot time (contact me for details on how). Tenth, cut out any unnecessary network protocols (if you've upgraded to DUN 1.2 and haven't removed the PPTP drivers, you have unnecessary network protocols). Eleventh, enable DMA (bus mastering) if you have OSR2 by going to Device Mangler, clicking on the + next to Disk Drives, clicking on the drive you want and selecting Properties/Settings, and if you see a box that says "DMA" put a checkmark in it (do this for CD-ROM drives as well). Twelfth, start REGEDIT and search for the key "RunOnce." Right above it should be another key, "Run." Click on the Run key and see what's in it. Anything there starts automatically every time you start your system. Remove unnecessary crap like automatic virus scanners, etc. Keep searching until you don't find any more RunOnce keys with "Run" right above. Thirteenth, upgrade your BIOS if there's a long delay before the "Starting Windows 95" prompt. Fourteenth, use TweakUI to control how long the "Starting Windows 95" prompt appears for. You can cut it down to almost zero if you never need to hit F8 and get the boot menu for any reason. This should get you started (these were off the top of my head). If nothing at alll here applies, you probably just have an older/slow hard drive. No cure for it except to buy a new, fast one. Try a Seagate Cheetah or something similar for some REAL speed. If one or more items apply, there are further things you can do that are even more esoteric. When you boot Win95, is there a certain point where it seems to pause for a long period of time? Let me know. This usually has to do with CDROM drives and how things are set up in the "Hard Disk Controllers" section of Device Mangler. P.S... do you know of ANY experts who aren't self-proclaimed? Who else is going to decide when someone's an expert at something except the person themselves? Nobody else knows what's inside another person's head. The key is, you either believe that person or you don't. Since you don't know me or my level of Win95 knowledge, you shouldn't be bothered if I proclaim myself an expert. You have no proof or evidence one way or another whether I am or not. The proof is in the pudding - if you ever have a Win95 question, please ask. I've donated my knowledge many times and am always willing to contribute. It's the only way to learn anything new (pass knowledge on, and new knowledge generally tends to come your way). Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 07:30:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22818 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:30:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nash.pr.mcs.net (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22809 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@nash.pr.mcs.net) Received: (from alex@localhost) by nash.pr.mcs.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA22397; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:28:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alex) Message-Id: <199806191428.JAA22397@nash.pr.mcs.net> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:28:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Alex Nash Subject: Re: Major hardware reorganization... To: fewtch@serv.net cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980619065546.007facd0@mx.serv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Jun, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > P.S... do you know of ANY experts who aren't self-proclaimed? I can't remember ever hearing any of the respected BSD people proclaim themselves to be an expert. They usually let their code and technical discussions speak for themselves. In my experience (disclaimer: I'm not suggesting this applies to you), people who are self-proclaimed experts, aren't. > Who else is > going to decide when someone's an expert at something except the person > themselves? Probably the people that are considering using the advice of a self-proclaimed expert. > Nobody else knows what's inside another person's head. The > key is, you either believe that person or you don't. Alternatively, one can come to their own conclusions. > Since you don't know > me or my level of Win95 knowledge, you shouldn't be bothered if I proclaim > myself an expert. You have no proof or evidence one way or another whether > I am or not. This is far too much excitement than needs to be generated over a statement with a smiley on it :) Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 08:31:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03471 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:31:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03442 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:31:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15262 for newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:30:31 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806191530.IAA15262@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:30 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >Newbies are generally those who are in their first few weeks or months of >learning BSD.... Really? Why do you say that? Folks who have seen this (from me) before, please feel free to skip it... but my point is that generally, there is a fair amount of diversity in the community; the unifying force is that freebsd-newbies tends to be populated by folks who are new to FreeBSD (or who have an interest, no matter how pathological[:-)] in the experiences of those of us who are new to FreeBSD). I'm still fairly new to FreeBSD. I'm not "new" to any of BSD, UNIX, system administration, programming, computing, networks, routing, wiring, or lots of other things (including Computer Science). I'm certainly willing to provide my perspectives (warped though they may be) to others; this note is a case in point. I get the impression that some folks assume that what's "new" to "newbies" here is UNIX or BSD, while the denizens are already familiar with PCs. Well, in my case, that's inverted: my prior experience with PC hardware has been minimal (and fairly unpleasant); my prior experience with Microsoft environments has not only also been minimal, but has been so unpleasant that I've largely repressed it. "Windows" to me refers to "the X Windows System". "DOS" refers to the operating system on the first s/360 (it was a model 30 with 4 MB RAM) that I used at a school (back in 1970). (Actually, I recall feeling that the use of "bytes" to measure memory capacity was just a cheap way to artificially inflate the apparent resources of the machine. The first machine I used was an IBM 1130, with 8 K 16-bit words of real core; words 0, 1, & 2 did double-duty as the index registers.) Another respect in which my perceptions differ from some others is that I only use FreeBSD here at work; it's one of the UNIX environments I administer. (It's also the bulk of what I administer.) At home, I use SunOS 4.1.1_U1 on the Sun 3/60, and Solaris 2.6 (current recommended patch cluster installed as of a couple of weekends ago, when they released 105552-02, I think it was -- the 2.6 version of the rpc.nisd patch) on a SPARCstation 5/110.) I'll grant that my case may well not be the norm... but I doubt that -- in that respect! -- I'm actually unique. david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 08:41:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05167 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05143 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15311 for newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:40:45 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806191540.IAA15311@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:38:10 -0700 >From: Tim Gerchmez >BTW, just an observation... the more I use BSD, the more I come to like it. > I wish there was money to be made writing BSD shareware (alas, most of it >is free or something similar can be gotten free, and the user base is small >compared to Windows) or I'd consider dumping Win95 and NT and just using >FreeBSD - every time I use it is like an adventure discovering something >new - it's truly exciting.... It has been observed (some time ago; I forget where or by whom) that "UNIX is the ultimate Adventure game." ["Adventure" is a text-mode game, in which one explores a cave, bringing back various treasures & learning things. There are points in the game where the prose becomes richly descriptive; the beginning I think I can nearly quote from memory: You are at the end of a road, near a small brick building at the top of a hill. Around you is a forest. You hear the sound of a small stream trickling somewhere below you. There's probably a version available somewhere on the Net. It was, in some respects (at least) an ancestor of the Dungeons & Dragons types of games. Of the latter, for those who are interested in such things, I suggest looking up NetHack; the current version has an X interface... and fair warning: many of the critters in the dungeon know how to use tools and things against you....] Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 09:24:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14061 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:24:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ruby.fltg.net (ruby.fltg.net [208.20.35.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13710 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaiserc@fltg.net) Received: from fltg.net ([208.31.46.42]) by ruby.fltg.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14676 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:21:41 -0400 Message-ID: <358A900E.E71DCEC7@fltg.net> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:21:34 -0400 From: Chris Kaiser X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Can't Make Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been trying to compile ports. I have written to Greg Lehey (trying to use his CFBSD) and Walnut Creek with out result. I've tried doing this creating sym-links. I've tried this according the handbook (p25), Complete FREBSD (p96), and his ever growing errata since the book was wrong. I get the same error everytime. As an example; xinvaders make install (from the xinvaders directory) /usr/ports/distfiles//xinvaders.tar.gz is a broken symlink Perhaps a file system (most likely CD) isn't mounted? Please correct problem. Error code 1 The only way I can install anything is by using pkg_add from the packages directory. Thank you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 09:40:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18070 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA17950 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjsan@bga.com) Received: (qmail 11490 invoked from network); 19 Jun 1998 16:40:07 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 1998 16:40:07 -0000 Received: from stevan (sjsan@dial-31-9.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.111.41]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA13879 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:40:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199806191640.LAA13879@zoom.bga.com> X-Sender: sjsan@mailserv.bga.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:37:47 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Stevan S." Subject: FreeBSD 2.2.6 Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey All, Well I covered just about all the documentation, handbook , and FAQ that I could get my hands on. I was thinking of getting the book "The Complete FreeBSD". Who got this book? And is it a good reference book to help answers question on the OS? Are there additional books that I should get on top of "The Complete FreeBSD"? Cheers, Stevan __ Stevan S. sjsan@bga.com Tell me and I'll Forget... Show me and I'll Remember... Involve me and I'll Understand. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 09:56:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20593 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA20555 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sjsan@bga.com) Received: (qmail 12962 invoked from network); 19 Jun 1998 16:56:16 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 1998 16:56:16 -0000 Received: from stevan (dial-31-9.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.111.41]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17601 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:56:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199806191656.LAA17601@zoom.bga.com> X-Sender: sjsan@mailserv.bga.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:53:51 -0500 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Stevan S." Subject: RE: HD running wild In-Reply-To: References: <199806160711.CAA19407@zoom.bga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don, >One of hte things FreeBSD is set up to do, by default, is use "cron" to >run special "clean up" type jobs every nig >There are three jobs that are set up to run. These are: > >Daily -- runs every day at 2:00 A.M. Your right. :) Every since then at 2:00 AM the PC does it thing and sends me an email reporting it finding. This can be benefical. :) Thanks all. Cheers, Stevan -- Stevan S. DoGmAx@irc sjsan@bga.com http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~aphex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 12:38:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20579 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20567 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:38:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA28719; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 05:38:19 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980620053816.52010@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 05:38:16 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current projects... References: <3.0.5.32.19980619054457.007f8500@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980619054457.007f8500@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 05:44:57AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 05:44:57AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Next project (working on at the moment) - upgrading parts of 2.2.6 to the > snapshot release of 3.0 - specifically, bin, proflibs and src. WTF?!!!! This is NOT mix-and-match software!!! > These are downloading at the moment as I type. Hopefully everything > will work well together, or a complete reinstall of 2.2.6 might be in > order Get those CDs ready... and your backup... and the handbook. > I'll keep y'all informed on how the upgrade goes and if I notice any > differences. If your system is working well enough to get back on line :-) Oh yea, You'll still be able to use your microsoft partition. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 12:38:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04539 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04300 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14467; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:05:15 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980619190515.52432@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:05:15 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , Sue Blake Cc: David Wolfskill , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A first encounter with 'vi' References: <3.0.5.32.19980619020219.007fc9c0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> <199806171941.MAA05868@pau-amma.whistle.com> <3.0.5.32.19980618163903.007f6640@mx.serv.net> <19980619115247.49675@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980619020219.007fc9c0@mx.serv.net> <19980619193835.65211@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980619053810.007f8a30@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980619053810.007f8a30@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 05:38:10AM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 05:38:10AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > BTW, just an observation... the more I use BSD, the more I come to like it. > I wish there was money to be made writing BSD shareware (alas, most of it > is free or something similar can be gotten free, and the user base is small > compared to Windows) Invent a new programming language or web application, then get the book contract with O'Reilly :-) N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 13:58:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03768 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pm02sm.pmm.mci.net (pm02sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03748 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from XDrAcOX@mci2000.COM) Received: from mci2000.COM (usr50-dialup33.mix2.Atlanta.mci.net) by PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27034) with ESMTP id <0EUT00NW7DJE9S@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:45:18 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:51:30 -0400 From: DrAcO Subject: Getting on the WWW... To: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Reply-to: XDrAcOX@mci2000.COM Message-id: <358AC141.9B9F369D@mci2000.COM> Organization: XDrAcOX@mci2000.com MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am very new to FreeBSD.... I have a question about getting on the WWW from FreeBSD. How do you do it??? What program do you run. I dont know how to set it up or anything. Could someone please help me??? John. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 15:05:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14855 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14825 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA29077; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:05:22 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980620080518.49679@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:05:18 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: man page readers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've finally got KDE running OK after rebuilding the kernel, still not sure if I like it, but it does have a few handy things.... If you go into Help (help? click on the help icon.... the pretty little picture of a book, of course... no, that green thing... yes.. OK, it's green with a yellow thing on it... no, it looks like a key but it won't lock the screen... the green part is a book because it's rectangular, so you know it's gotta be help... no, don't type help, just click on it... well try the other mouse button... no! once is enough!... ok, good, now kill those extra help windows...) about the fifth item listed is "System man page contents". Well, from there you can read man pages and when they refer to other man pages you get a real link to the other page. This might sound like no big deal, but when all of the other man pages mentioned are meaningless words, being able to have a quick peek and press the back button to return saves a lot of stress. The old way was remember how to spell it, quit, bring up the other man page, quit, get into the first man page again, memorise another name... After following a few of these and finding that none of the mentioned man pages have anything to do with the original problem either, it gets pretty frustrating. OK, maybe I'm not so keen on KDE as an environment, but it makes a great man page reader :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 15:21:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18063 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18027 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:21:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id SAA28522; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:21:21 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts003d12.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.72]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id SAA02581; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358AE56A.332@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:25:46 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Stevan S." CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.6 Books References: <199806191640.LAA13879@zoom.bga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stevan S. wrote: > > Hey All, > > Well I covered just about all the documentation, handbook , and FAQ that I > could get my hands on. I was thinking of getting the book "The Complete > FreeBSD". Don't have it, but my mentor, an AIX Systems Engineer says it is very good. If you get it, look thru the archives and/or post a question to freebsd-questions, because the Author posted a message of corrections to it (which happens to every computer book in the world) I've found "Unix System Administration Handbook" to be very valuable. As have many others. Its by Nemeth, Snyder, Seebass and Hein, published by Prentice Hall. It's become known as "The Red Book". ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 15:56:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25057 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25051 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id SAA01586; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:56:42 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts003d12.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.72]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id SAA11219; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358AEDB2.5473@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:01:07 -0600 From: ML Duke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: XDrAcOX@mci2000.COM CC: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Getting on the WWW... References: <358AC141.9B9F369D@mci2000.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org DrAcO wrote: > > I am very new to FreeBSD.... I have a question about getting on the WWW > from FreeBSD. How do you do it??? What program do you run. I dont > know how to set it up or anything. Could someone please help me??? Lynx is a text browser which has the advantage of being much faster than those with the graphical bells and whistles, but a disadvantage is that a lot of people who design web sites don't even _know_ there are people who use text only, and so they don't include alternate text with their graphics, which renders some sites completely useless. (i.e., "Link" tells you nothing) But, with x windows & Netscape, you can just jump to another terminal and have a look anyhow. Prior to the above you need ppp or pppd. This probably isn't a whole lot of help, but is just to let you know that what you need is available. ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 16:12:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27318 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27309 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA29277; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:12:31 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980620091228.24796@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:12:28 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: XDrAcOX@mci2000.COM Cc: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Getting on the WWW... References: <358AC141.9B9F369D@mci2000.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <358AC141.9B9F369D@mci2000.COM>; from DrAcO on Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 03:51:30PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 03:51:30PM -0400, DrAcO wrote: > I am very new to FreeBSD.... I have a question about getting on the WWW > from FreeBSD. How do you do it??? What program do you run. I dont > know how to set it up or anything. Could someone please help me??? I'll guess that you mean you want to browse around the web. Here's how most of us do it: Get an Internet account somewhere Install FreeBSD Set up ppp to dial into the Internet provider Use a web browser. One web browser for FreeBSD you can use is called lynx, but it only gives you the text. If you want to see the web graphically, you wil have to set up the X Window System on your FreeBSD machine, and then install something like Netscape from the freebsd ports collection. For information about how to do all of this, try starting at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html If you get stuck, you can write to another address for help, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. Try to work it out yourself first though, there's a lot of documentation to help you. For more information about freebsd-newbies (this mailing list) see http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 16:44:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01659 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01640 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:44:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaput@whoever.com) Received: from whoever.com (kaput@pm04-14.aei.ca [206.123.6.189]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA03208; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358AF77A.E89B1FE2@whoever.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:42:50 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: happy man page readers References: <19980620080518.49679@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > I've finally got KDE running OK after rebuilding the kernel, still not > sure if I like it, but it does have a few handy things.... > > If you go into Help (help? click on the help icon.... the pretty little > picture of a book, of course... no, that green thing... yes.. OK, it's > green with a yellow thing on it... no, it looks like a key but it won't > lock the screen... the green part is a book because it's rectangular, so > you know it's gotta be help... no, don't type help, just click on it... > well try the other mouse button... no! once is enough!... ok, good, now > kill those extra help windows...) about the fifth item listed is "System > man page contents". Well, from there you can read man pages and when they > refer to other man pages you get a real link to the other page. This > might sound like no big deal, but when all of the other man pages > mentioned are meaningless words, being able to have a quick peek and > press the back button to return saves a lot of stress. > > The old way was remember how to spell it, quit, bring up the other man > page, quit, get into the first man page again, memorise another name... > After following a few of these and finding that none of the mentioned > man pages have anything to do with the original problem either, it gets > pretty frustrating. > > OK, maybe I'm not so keen on KDE as an environment, but it makes a great > man page reader :-) > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > Hehehe ;-) I'm happy than you try this Windows Manager Now I'm a little bit like you, I dont use Xfree86. I think it's more simple and speedy in text based now :-) (with moused, of course =) And I love lynx. Happy Malartre -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 17:14:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07151 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06893 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29470; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:12:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980620011217.40053@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:12:17 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Michael P. Sale" , Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) References: <01bd9b2a$07d9fc20$3d06bccc@708644668> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <01bd9b2a$07d9fc20$3d06bccc@708644668>; from Michael P. Sale on Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 07:29:05PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Directed at anyone reading this ] On Thu, Jun 18, 1998 at 07:29:05PM -0700, Michael P. Sale wrote: > >When said newbie finally gets the answer (either because they've worked > >it out for themselves, or because someone's provided them with sufficient > >pointers (or even a working solution)) do they then write it up and > >contribute it back to FreeBSD? > > I doubt it. I would guess there are three reasons for this though. > > a. Fear of looking silly and don't think they can really contribute (yet) *How* do we break this barrier down? Part of it is trying to get people not to be as sarcastic as they can be in -questions (anyone that saw a response from caleb@ earlier today will know what I mean). But what else? From a 'newbie' perspective, what would make you think that your contribution was wanted? > I also suspect that a newbies-questions group may allow some of the thoughts > and input you are looking for. Free thinking unafraid questions tend to > generate more thought and input than anything else I've found. I remain to be convinced about the value of a newbie-questions mailing list. 1. How do you know which list your message is more appropriate for? I suspect a lot of people with problems will post to both lists in the hope that they'll catch someone who can help. The comp.unix.wizards newsgroup had the same problem. It was intended for Unix wizards to swap wizardly ideas () but was swamped by people trying to get help. 2. Presumably fewer people knowledgable in FreeBSD and/or Unix will read newbie-questions -- the quality of advice would therefore be correspondingly lower. At least with one -questions the focus is more tight. 3. Other 'question' mailing lists (-multimedia, -scsi, -database) are split along easily understood lines. If you've got a problem with your SCSI drive then it makes more sense to post to -scsi than it does to -questions. I don't think this would be the case with newbie-questions (this is really point #1 above, but worded differently). There's no reason -newbies can't be the kind of place for 'free thinking unafraid questions' that you spoke of. However, IMHO, those questions should be of the "What if?" and "How about?" variety, not the "How do I?" kind. N -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all the same. -- You are in a maze of twisty signature files all alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 19:30:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25626 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25564 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29873 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:30:10 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:30:10 +1000 (EST) From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <199806200230.MAA29873@phoenix.welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (Last updated 6 June 1998) This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook344.html) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. Manuals You'll always be expected show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj.html Other resources [Updated! New links to info on ppp and the X Window System] A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 20:15:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29619 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:15:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29610 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:15:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29984; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:15:16 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980620131512.26098@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:15:12 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Chris Kaiser Cc: "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Can't Make References: <358A900E.E71DCEC7@fltg.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <358A900E.E71DCEC7@fltg.net>; from Chris Kaiser on Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 12:21:34PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 12:21:34PM -0400, Chris Kaiser wrote: > I have been trying to compile ports. I have written to Greg Lehey > (trying to use his CFBSD) and Walnut Creek with out result. You don't mention having written to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, which is the usual place to get this kind of help. http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ is the first thing you should read at this stage. > I've tried doing this creating sym-links. I've tried this according > the handbook (p25), Complete FREBSD (p96), and his ever growing errata > since the book was wrong. All books are "wrong". This one happens to have a mechanism to get any bugs removed and is constantly updated as the world changes. If you prefer books which hide their bugs and have no way of being updated, there's plenty of them out there. > I get the same error everytime. > As an example; xinvaders > > make install (from the xinvaders directory) Below you show suggestions of a few things you could check in order to address your problem. Maybe you're not sure what the error messages are trying to tell you? > /usr/ports/distfiles//xinvaders.tar.gz is a broken symlink Did you look at it to see if that's true? You didn't say so. > Perhaps a file system (most likely CD) isn't mounted? Well, is it mounted? You didn't say so. > Please correct problem. > Error code 1 This is not the right place to discuss your problem and its solution. FreeBSD-Newbies is just for discussion, not help. You will have to write to freebsd-questions, but you will have trouble getting an answer unless you state your problem clearly and dispassionately and show that you have taken some steps to find out what's going on. If you don't understand the error message or how to follow on from there, then that is your only problem for now. You can post the error message to freebsd-questions, tell them you're new and ask "Could someone help me understand what I need to check, and how?". That will get a much more helpful response than a complaint that "it" didn't work. The help you can get from freebsd-questions is very good, but remember that, being volunteers, they help because they enjoy helping, and they continue to do so for just as long as they enjoy it. If you have some steam to let of let it off here with us, where there's nobody who you might want to be nice to you :-) > The only way I can install anything is by using pkg_add from the > packages directory. Actually, that's what we mostly do. If there's a package, why not take the easy way? :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 19 22:36:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13646 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from prime.oaep.go.th (slip202-135-22-68.sy.au.ibm.net [202.135.22.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13581 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pirat@prime.oaep.go.th) Received: (from pirat@localhost) by prime.oaep.go.th (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA17815; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:36:20 +0700 (ICT) (envelope-from pirat) Message-ID: <19980620123618.B17388@oaep.go.th> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:36:18 +0700 From: pirat sriyotha To: Tim Parkinson Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Horrible things, NIC's References: <000a01bd99e6$357638f0$92194798@stimpy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <000a01bd99e6$357638f0$92194798@stimpy>; from Tim Parkinson on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:51:05PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD prime.oaep.go.th 2.2.6-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, from my failure books, you must know what the factory setting of port number and interrupt number of your NE2000 card. you have to know, to get them by any means. then boot -cv and setting ed0 ( or ed1) to those two numbers. sure you have to edit /etc/rc.conf to set things up correctly before shutdown -r now. and hit dash see we, -cv, at boot prompt, boot: rgds, psr On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 12:51:05PM +0100, Tim Parkinson wrote: > Harumph, > > I just went out and bought a shiny new NE2000 compatible (read: cheap) to go > alongside the one in my FreeBSD gateway, and replace the 3Com 3c509 that had > been giving a bit of jip recently. I rolled up a nice new kernel, changed > the startup stuff in /etc/rc.conf and rebooted -Aaaagh, complete spasms. > Ifconfig refused to add the IP addresses and various other scary problems > related to that. Finally, I have ifconfig adding the IP's but still the > *naughty word-ing* thing is having problems. Grrr, I'm not happy. > > Note, this isn't a question. I just wanted to vent a little frustration at > being a newbie and not being able to work out what is wrong! > > Still, I guess this is the best way to learn, have something fall over and > have to get your hands dirty and fix it. > :( > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Tim Parkinson -Teaching Company Associate > Nottingham Trent University & Clerical Gas Ltd > Tel: 0115 9783677 Fax: 0115 9706977 > tim.parkinson@ccr.ntu.ac.uk > tim@gubbins.ml.org -Home > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 20 09:00:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02844 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk (l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk [193.237.8.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02836 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from russ@l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk) Received: (from russ@localhost) by l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA13824; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:58:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from russ) Message-ID: <19980620175839.21109@l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:58:39 +0100 From: Russ Paton To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: dhw@whistle.com Subject: Windoze vs FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apparently David Wolfskill once scribbled: > >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:28:41 -0400 (EDT) > >From: James > > >However, like it or not, windows DOES have one thing over UNIX. That is > >the interface. > > Do you find it so? I find it quite the opposite. > Agreed, as a great deal of UNIX (not just FreeBSD) is configured in plain text it seems to be a much simpler system to understand and the interface fine. > >How hard is it to learn when you turn the thing on and > >you see a little yellow arrow moving across the bottom of the screen > >saying click here to start? > > With which button? What do you mean by using a mouse with only 2 > buttons? Which button is missing? How do I get the missing button's > function? > > The few times (< a dozen) that I've tried to get anything done in such > an environment, I'd generally get an interface I couldn't understand, > applications or machines that would hang, or some combination thereof. > How stuff could be sold that does that is something that I find mind- > boggling. That folks would actually spend money to acquire something > that does that is truly incredible. > Undoubtedly windoze greatest failure is its uncanny ability to hang at the most inopportune moments, take Mr Gates recent CNN appearance where he was demonstrating Windows 98, did you see what happened, Instant Blue Screen of Death and an embarressed "Bill" tearing towards the monitors power button. > And the goofy little meaningless icons on a low-resolution display don't > help, either. [Ref: "low-resolution" meaning that I'm not real happy > with the resolution on my ancient Sun 3/60, which is 1120x900.] > > And the ability to use forms of regular expressions on command lines (in > UNIX) is quite useful, powerful, and -- once you get used to it -- > inuitive. > > >I know all the arguments about KDE, CDE, > >FVWM95, and such but how many machines have you seen preloaded with those? > No, but part of the challenge of running a UNIX system is to become a sysadmin yourself even at a basic level so if a few binaries require your compiling them so what, if you don't want to do it, why use FreeBSD (or any other flavor) in the first place. > Well, as a UNIX sysadmin, it's my job to make sure things like that are > set up for my colleagues. > > >How many people ask questions about setting them up? What about just X > >alone? > People always ask for help with something that they do not understand, it is part of human nature...I don't see that it is a problem if I am asked or need to ask for help. > X *is* complicated; no question. It's also more than just a little > configurable.... :-) > > I generally invite folks to copy any files in my home directory that are > world-readable, including any "dot files" there. > Another major plus for X is it's ability to run reasonably well on low spec machines. > >Then how many people have problems with PPP user or god forbid kernel > >mode. Then you have to think about PAP and CHAP vs. plaintext passwords. > Again, it's part of being a 'sysadmin' if you don't like it, don't do it. > If you're using passwords *without* thinking about them, that's a > significant concern.... > > >Modem init strings? god forbid we use those they came from DOS. > I work in the IT support department of an ISP and believe me the initialisation that windows provides built in are invariably crap, strings are always absolutely specific to the modem being used, yes strings can be written to the nvram, but strings are a necessity in making sure your modem/ta can connect to your isp effectively. > I used MODEMs prior to Microsoft's existence (when "DOS" referred to > "DOS/360").... But a "MODEM initialization string" should be used for > precisely the function described by the name: it's a string to use to > initialize a MODEM. Normally, I'll initialize the MODEM for "normal" > use (and write that configuration to the MODEM's memory -- NVRAM). > Then, if a particular use of the MODEM requires something different, the > "chat script" or whatever the application uses can set that.... > > >These are the issues that should be addressed before something like BSD or > >Linux appears in a common household. > > Well, I could probably be convinced that my household isn't all that > "common" -- the machines my wife & I have & use are Suns.... :-) [My > involvement with FreeBSD is strictly here at work. And lest I be > accused of not being a true "newbie," I've only dealt with FreeBSD since > the end of February. I do have a fair amount of other UNIX experience, > as well as IBM mainframe experience. IBM PC-type hardware continues to > baffle me -- if anything drives me away from FreeBSD, that will be it. > By contrast, the Suns are so much easier to work with -- plug things in, > and they just work....] > > david > -- > David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator > dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message -- Russ Paton russ@l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk http://www.thumbs.org eThay ibesVay areway owlay andway ethay assbay isway oundingpay --RAA13307.898361730/l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk-- -----End of forwarded message----- -- Russ Paton russ@l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk http://www.thumbs.org eThay ibesVay areway owlay andway ethay assbay isway oundingpay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 20 15:20:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17045 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:20:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de (root@gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de [194.163.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17038 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rainer.Duffner@konstanz.netsurf.de) Received: from duffner.konstanz.netsurf.de (surf67.konstanz.netsurf.de [194.163.242.67]) by gw1.konstanz.netsurf.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA25973; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 00:20:25 +0200 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 00:15:44 +0200 (MESZ) From: Rainer M Duffner Subject: Re: Windoze vs FreeBSD To: Russ Paton cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980620175839.21109@l-p-b-central.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: enigma, http://www-stud.fh-konstanz.de/~enigma X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.45] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat 20 Jun, Russ Paton wrote: > Apparently David Wolfskill once scribbled: > > >Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:28:41 -0400 (EDT) > > >From: James > > Well, as a UNIX sysadmin, it's my job to make sure things like that are > > set up for my colleagues. > > > > >How many people ask questions about setting them up? What about just X > > >alone? > > > > People always ask for help with something that they do not understand, it > is part of human nature...I don't see that it is a problem if I am asked or > need to ask for help. And people are _not_ buying truck-loads of 'Windows-annoyance', Windows95-easy, Win95-god-knows-what-books, are they ? !! If Win95 & NT was sooo easy, why would anybody spend money on those 99% worthless books ? Why would anybody pay those ridiculous sums for MCSE ? Naaa, it's all so easy - point and click.... > Another major plus for X is it's ability to run reasonably well on low spec > machines. Or to have a full OS, without a GUI..... I like to boot the Win95-PCs at our computer-lab with the PicoBSD boot-floppy and turn them into little FreeBSDs ;-) At least, a stable telnet implementation ! cheers, Rainer -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |Rainer Duffner, E-Mail: duffner@fh-konstanz.de | | & Rainer.Duffner@konstanz.netsurf.de | |Fachhochschule Konstanz, Germany | |"What's a Network ?" - Bill Gates, early 1980s | | WWW:http://www-stud.fh-konstanz.de/~duffner | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jun 20 17:53:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05252 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:53:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05246 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue2@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue2@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02309; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:53:36 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980621105332.52639@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:53:32 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 48! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's been a tough two days, but it was well worth it. Finally I have reached level three! One thing I'm yet to find in KDE is how to get in and really configure stuff properly. Take Snake Race for example. After becoming disenchanted with KDE's tetris, I picked Snake Race as being the closest game to my beloved worm(6). But I want my snake to have brakes, or at least an overall speed control, and that doesn't seem to be an option. This snake has no apetite at all, shying away from the apples, encircling them with its body rather than eating them. Even after permanently disposing of the needlessly distracting opponent snake and the killer bouncing ball, the snake still showed more interest in avoiding apples than eating them. Eventually the computer took pity on us and threw out a whole lot more apples to make them easier to catch. A nice touch, I thought :-) Faced with so much food and the boredom of making figure eights for a whole day, the snake's apetite improved. By last night we were exploring the second room, and this morning we made it all the way into level three before collapsing victorious against the wall, achieving a record two-digit score! Stand back, world, there's no stopping this snake now! Oh... I think I hear 'man sh' calling. Whoever said unix is hard? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message