From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jul 19 07:39:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18875 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:39:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from harfang.CC.UMontreal.CA (harfang.CC.UMontreal.CA [132.204.2.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18856; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:39:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beaupran@JSP.UMontreal.CA) Received: from epsom.jsp.umontreal.ca (epsom.JSP.UMontreal.CA [132.204.45.25]) by harfang.CC.UMontreal.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA26370; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outpost.nada.org (derby.jsp.umontreal.ca [132.204.45.26]) by epsom.jsp.umontreal.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/JSP1789) id KAA01149; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:38:54 -0400 Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:40:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Spidey X-Sender: beaupran@outpost.nada.org To: Ken Seggerman cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Newbies Mailing List Subject: Re: cdplayer on laptop no sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Ken Seggerman wrote: > Greetings: > > I have a laptop (Toshiba Satellite 305CDS) running 2.2.5. I also have > 2.2.5 running on my PC. > > The modem that came with the laptop (Xircom CreditCard 56T) is not > supported and I have given up on working around it with an external. > > Thus I am unable at this time to avail myself of the ports collection. > > cdplayer is not on the 2.2.5 CD, but I have it on the PC, I must haved > downloaded the port, I don't remember. I don't know anything such as cdplayer! In the ports (rel 2.2.6) I have: beaupran@outpost [10:27am] ~/.procmail> ls /usr/ports/audio/ CVS/ gsm/ nspmod/ sox/ xmcd/ Makefile kdemultimedia/ pkg/ splay/ xmix/ README.html maplay/ playmidi/ timidity/ xmmix/ amp/ mikmod/ radio/ tosha/ xmpeg3/ cam/ mpegaudio/ rosegarden/ tracker/ cddbd/ mpg123/ rplay/ workman/ cdplay/ mxv/ rsynth/ xcd/ gmod/ nas/ s3mod/ xcdplayer/ So I got a cdplay, a xcdplayer, but no cdplayer... :) > cdplayer works fine on the the PC. What I did was take the cdplayer > executable from the PC, put it on a floppy and copied onto the laptop. Maybe what you should have done is: 1-fetch the source code from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/distfiles/ 2-put it in /usr/ports/distfiles/ 3-fetch the port, if you do not have it already in /usr/ports/audio/ 4-cd /usr/ports/audio/cdplay (or xcdplayer, or whatever) 5-make install > The cdplayer program runs, it reads from the CD shows the tracks and > volume, it stops, plays and pauses and even ejects the CD tray. Ok, that's good. > However no sound comes out of either the little laptop speakers or the > headphones when they are plugged in. hmmm, is there a headphone plug on the cdplayer? Try putting it in this one instead. > I am hoping that this can be fixed by doing a MAKEDEV on some device in > /dev like speaker or audiopcmcia or if necessary re-compiling the kernel. I don't think so. If you can communicate with the cd, it must be something else/ > I don't really know where to look for next. I don't know laptops. If they have audio output, they gotta have a sound card of some sort. Have you konfigured your kernel to enable it? Check the output of the dmesg command (or the messages at boot time...) Your sound card got to be enabled at startup somehow... > (I tried rplayer from the packages collection on the CD but couldn't even > get that to work at all, does it even play CDs?) No. It's got almost nothing to do with "cdplaying". From the description: <><><><><><><><><><><> rplay is a flexible network audio system that allows sounds to be played to and from local and remote systems. <><><><><><><><><><><> Spidey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 20 06:49:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07928 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp1.globalserve.net (smtp1.globalserve.net [209.90.144.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA07892 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:48:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scqdaf@globalserve.net) Received: from [209.90.134.16] (dialin1033.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.134.16]) by smtp1.globalserve.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA13381 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:56:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from scqdaf@globalserve.net) X-Sender: scqdaf@mail.globalserve.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:35:14 -0400 To: FreeBSD-Newbies From: Dennis Favro Subject: FreeBSD under emulation (on a Mac) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok.. Does anyone here know how well FreeBSD would behave running under a PC Emulator on a 133Mhz Power Macintosh? Is it worth doing, or should I give up now? DOS and Windows95 both run relatively well under this setup, but WindowsNT is just disgustingly slow. I'd like to run a native UNIX implementation for the Mac, but neither package (MkLinux or LinuxPPC) will work on my Mac. --Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 20 07:26:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12791 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:26:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12786 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup117.serv.net [205.153.153.146]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA16830; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980720072549.0080c490@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:25:49 -0700 To: Dennis Favro , FreeBSD-Newbies From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: FreeBSD under emulation (on a Mac) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's a good question. If it works at all, I think you will find that it runs faster than Win95. I just wonder if it will work. FreeBSD is EXTREMELY hardware-sensitive and hardware-aware, and probes for PC hardware directly at every step of the bootup procedure. If it finds a single thing it doesn't like, you'll be liable to get a kernel panic and boot failure. I don't know if it can be emulated or not. Why not give it a try - it's free :-) At 09:35 AM 7/20/98 -0400, Dennis Favro wrote: > Ok.. Does anyone here know how well FreeBSD would behave running under a >PC Emulator on a 133Mhz Power Macintosh? Is it worth doing, or should I >give up now? -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 20 08:10:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17264 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:10:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17225 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:10:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA23805; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:13:36 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: Dennis Favro cc: FreeBSD-Newbies Subject: Re: FreeBSD under emulation (on a Mac) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Dennis Favro wrote: > Ok.. Does anyone here know how well FreeBSD would behave running under a > PC Emulator on a 133Mhz Power Macintosh? Is it worth doing, or should I > give up now? I've never been able to get it to install properly. It crashes at a the same point in the installer every time (I've tried with 2.2.1, 2.2.5 and 2.2.6)...This is with VirtualPC. > WindowsNT is just disgustingly slow. I'd like to run a native UNIX > implementation for the Mac, but neither package (MkLinux or LinuxPPC) will Really? What machine do you have? Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jul 20 13:30:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09394 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:30:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.gorge.net (dns3.gorge.net [205.162.195.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09387 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ice_cold@cryogen.com) Received: from cryogen.com ([208.14.145.3]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-40184U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA141 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:45:52 -0700 Message-ID: <35B3A873.4E7FB816@cryogen.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:28:35 -0700 From: Ice_cold X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FAT32/VFAT in 2.2.7 References: <3.0.5.32.19980716163639.0080e100@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DD880AD58C55BC00ED8FEB81" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------DD880AD58C55BC00ED8FEB81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I am an experience NT 4.0 user on multiple stations (sence I'm sysadmin...) and disagree with some of what you said. Oh, did I mention that NT4 is a bloated pig, even in 64 megs RAM? I once did a test on my 64 meg machine, I set up just a 10 meg swap file as an experiment (giving NT 74 megs RAM to work with), and with only Netscape running (with a 1024k memory cache), got an error message that NT was out of memory and to close some applications {boggle}.... Like all OS's you have to know something about how they work before saying weather or not the are "bloated pig". It is horably true that NT is a horably power hungry OS. However I have it running on multiple Intel100's with 32 megs of RAM and have not had the problem you just described. (Note: 20+ meg files are common in at least two departments where I work). This is due to the virtual memory in which is stored on your hard drive (how large of one did you have?). The max is around 96 megs on a 1.6gig and I will assume that it goes down as the hard drive gets smaller and vice versa. Obviusly the smaller this nummber the smaller the program you can have open. Ask anyone with regular NT4 experience on multiple machines about its stability and you'll find that it's a myth. NT stability is not a "myth". In fact my NT machines stay up one hell of a lot longer than my win95/win3.1x and DOS machines (note I do not add FreeBSD/UNIX to this list). In fact the longest I have had an NT4.0 SP3 machine running without it going down (I had to upgrade it) was about a year (give or take a mounth). This is much better than the standard 95 minutes win95 lasts (joke:-). It is true that I would never (let me repeat: never) use NT as a server with any importance. The closest NT will ever come to my server room is the Proxy I have it on. As you said it is to power hungry to run multiuser application with any type of effictivness (sorry hard core NT fans). For this I either run Novels Netware (which is great after a fasion) or UNIX. (I'm just now playing with FreeBSD and wasn't here when the UNIX boxes where installed....isn't that always the way?). I also dislike the security protocols within NT4. When a new user is added to the list they have rights to everything and you must ristrict anything you don't whant them into (this is on a network not setting up a new workstation user account). However this might have been fixed with SP3, or SP4 (if it's out yet, I don't believe so). In short: Do not critisize an OS you have only spent 3 hours working on. Each OS has distict advantages and disadvantages that are better suited in one place then anouther. Completly disregarding NT4 and shouting it to the world is like me saying "I hate FreeBSD becouse it isn't user freindly enough for me to implement it within my whole network. It's ugly black screen just dosn't do it with anyone." (By the way I don't feel this way, though I would never let a standard user touch it, I couldn't stand teaching them to get there mail let alone what command to tye to get into a word prossesor). And how did you feel you needed to flaunt your feeling when you heard that FAT32 and VFAT are going to be supported in 2.2.7? The whole reson FreeBSD is as good as it is, is due to it's versitility. Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 12:55 PM 7/16/98 -0700, Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: > > >Six month ahead of WinNT ;-} > > Good for FreeBSD advocacy, I suppose, but to hell with WinNT from my > standpoint. I hate Windows NT 4.0 and would actually rather use Win95 > (OSR2, with patches) for most kinds of desktop-type uses, given the choice > between the two. Ask anyone with regular NT4 experience on multiple > machines about its stability and you'll find that it's a myth. Sometimes > NT4 crashes while simply running a screensaver. I personally despise it - > I won't have it on any of my machines, period. > > > > -- > My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - > lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message --------------DD880AD58C55BC00ED8FEB81 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim,

I am an experience NT 4.0 user on multiple stations (sence I'm sysadmin...) and disagree with some of what you said.

<snip>
Oh, did I mention that NT4 is a bloated pig, even in 64 megs RAM?  I once
did a test on my 64 meg machine, I set up just a 10 meg swap file as an
experiment (giving NT 74 megs RAM to work with), and with only Netscape
running (with a 1024k memory cache), got an error message that NT was out
of memory and to close some applications {boggle}....
<snip>

Like all OS's you have to know something about how they work before saying weather or not the are "bloated pig". It is horably true that NT is a horably power hungry OS. However I have it running on multiple Intel100's with 32 megs of RAM and have not had the problem you just described. (Note: 20+ meg files are common in at least two departments where I work). This is due to the virtual memory in which is stored on your hard drive (how large of one did you have?). The max is around 96 megs on a 1.6gig and I will assume that it goes down as the hard drive gets smaller and vice versa. Obviusly the smaller this nummber the smaller the program you can have open.

<snip>
Ask anyone with regular NT4 experience on multiple
machines about its stability and you'll find that it's a myth.
<snip>

NT stability is not a "myth". In fact my NT machines stay up one hell of a lot longer than my win95/win3.1x and DOS machines (note I do not add FreeBSD/UNIX to this list). In fact the longest I have had an NT4.0 SP3 machine running without it going down (I had to upgrade it) was about a year (give or take a mounth).  This is much better than the standard 95 minutes win95 lasts (joke:-).

It is true that I would never (let me repeat: never) use NT as a server with any importance. The closest NT will ever come to my server room is the Proxy I have it on. As you said it is to power hungry to run multiuser application with any type of effictivness (sorry hard core NT fans). For this I either run Novels Netware (which is great after a fasion) or UNIX. (I'm just now playing with FreeBSD and wasn't here when the UNIX boxes where installed....isn't that always the way?). I also dislike the security protocols within NT4. When a new user is added to the list they have rights to everything and you must ristrict anything you don't whant them into (this is on a network not setting up a new workstation user account). However this might have been fixed with SP3, or SP4 (if it's out yet, I don't believe so).

In short:
    Do not critisize an OS you have only spent 3 hours working on. Each OS has distict advantages and disadvantages that are better suited in one place then anouther. Completly disregarding NT4 and shouting it to the world is like me saying "I hate FreeBSD becouse it isn't user freindly enough for me to implement it within my whole network. It's ugly black screen just dosn't do it with anyone." (By the way I don't feel this way, though I would never let a standard user touch it, I couldn't stand teaching them to get there mail let alone what command to tye to get into a word prossesor).

And how did you feel you needed to flaunt your feeling when you heard that FAT32 and VFAT are going to be supported in 2.2.7? The whole reson FreeBSD is as good as it is, is due to it's versitility.

Tim Gerchmez wrote:

At 12:55 PM 7/16/98 -0700, Kevin G. Eliuk wrote:

>Six month ahead of WinNT ;-}

Good for FreeBSD advocacy, I suppose, but to hell with WinNT from my
standpoint.  I hate Windows NT 4.0 and would actually rather use Win95
(OSR2, with patches) for most kinds of desktop-type uses, given the choice
between the two.  Ask anyone with regular NT4 experience on multiple
machines about its stability and you'll find that it's a myth.  Sometimes
NT4 crashes while simply running a screensaver.  I personally despise it -
I won't have it on any of my machines, period.
 
 

--
My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html -
lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time.

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message

  --------------DD880AD58C55BC00ED8FEB81-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 21 21:07:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26932 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26912 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevink@mindless.com) From: kevink@mindless.com Received: from hellhole (ppp-207-214-213-102.sntc01.pacbell.net [207.214.213.102]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id VAA11729 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980721211039.0079ab20@pop.netaddress.com> X-Sender: gekk0@pop.netaddress.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:10:39 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: fbsd 2.2.7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org woohoo....2.2.7 is out To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jul 21 23:34:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19012 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from support.centercomp.com (root@[206.129.174.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18995 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@clean.net) Received: from stephen.clean.net (corv-3.e-z.net [206.129.174.53]) by support.centercomp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA29532 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980721233344.007afe10@clean.net> X-Sender: eric@clean.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:33:44 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Eric Hake Subject: Re: fbsd 2.2.7 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980721211039.0079ab20@pop.netaddress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Newbie question --> If I have a 2.2.6 machine running just fine, and I want to upgrade to 2.2.7, how do you do that without buying the 2.2.7 CDs and reinstalling? Can you somehow download it, and install it, or is there a lot more too it than that? Thanks! Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 00:32:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28844 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:32:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28753; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:31:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA00236; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:29:08 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980722172903.50769@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:29:03 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Eric Hake Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fbsd 2.2.7 References: <3.0.5.32.19980721211039.0079ab20@pop.netaddress.com> <3.0.5.32.19980721233344.007afe10@clean.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980721233344.007afe10@clean.net>; from Eric Hake on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 11:33:44PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [I'm shooting this over to freebsd-questions because that's where we ask (even newbie) questions.] On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 11:33:44PM -0700, Eric Hake wrote: > Newbie question --> If I have a 2.2.6 machine running just fine, and I > want to upgrade to 2.2.7, how do you do that without buying the 2.2.7 CDs > and reinstalling? > > Can you somehow download it, and install it, or is there a lot more too it > than that? I guess you can read up on the gotchas to do with upgrading, download the new floppy and do an FTP installation, selecting the upgrade option, but I couldn't find this in the Handbook or FAQ. Is it my searching skills (again!) or is it a gap that needs filling? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 02:20:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19965 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw2.mtelecom.ru (gw2.mtelecom.ru [195.90.159.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19877 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:20:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seva@mtelecom.ru) Received: from mtelecom.ru (eng.mtelecom.ru [172.16.2.24]) by gw2.mtelecom.ru (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19200; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:20:52 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from seva@mtelecom.ru) Message-ID: <35B5AEAF.132A4201@mtelecom.ru> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:19:44 +0400 From: Seva Semenov X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kevink@mindless.com CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fbsd 2.2.7 References: <3.0.5.32.19980721211039.0079ab20@pop.netaddress.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org kevink@mindless.com wrote: > woohoo....2.2.7 is out Where?On ftp.freebsd.org there is only packages for 2.2.7. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 04:21:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA10310 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 04:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10249 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 04:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup109.serv.net [205.153.153.138]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA11026 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 04:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 04:20:47 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: How to upgrade to 2.2.7 in 10 easy steps (Rev. 1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK: First off, I'm a newbie myself, and the following procedure MAY NOT but SHOULD work just fine. If it doesn't, all the standard disclaimers apply (& even if you tried to sue me, I have $5.00 to last the rest of the month, so have fun!!) ;-) Also, any old-bies here want to upgrade this to revision 2, PLEASE do so as soon as possible! I hereby release this to the Public Domain: (0) Boot FreeBSD (1) type /stand/sysinstall (2) press ENTER on "upgrade an existing system" (3) read instructions carefully!!!!!!!! (4) EXIT sysinstall without trying to upgrade anything (5) Make personal backups of /etc and anything else that's important to you onto whatever media you have access to OTHER than the current slices FreeBSD resides on (floppies work, DOS partitions work, etc). (6) Download the new "install floppy" image from the 2.2.7 distribution (7) Create an image with the "fdimage" or "rawrite" utility on a 1.44 floppy disk (8) Boot from the install floppy and select "upgrade an existing system" (9) Off ya go. It *should* work just fine if you have PPP up and running correctly. Select "Install from FTP site" as install method. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 06:26:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29623 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29615 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:26:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup411.serv.net [207.207.70.12]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA16043; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722062247.00814320@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:22:47 -0700 To: Seva Semenov , kevink@mindless.com From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: fbsd 2.2.7 Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35B5AEAF.132A4201@mtelecom.ru> References: <3.0.5.32.19980721211039.0079ab20@pop.netaddress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check again, it's there now. BTW, it looks to me like packages are still being uploaded (as of 14:17 GMT/UTC, 22 July). There are a lot missing that were there in 2.2.6 (I didn't see any Netscape or Acroread or any of the big ones yet, nor any INDEX file). So start with /bin and the standard distributions and save packages for last if you plan to download the tree via FTP. I'm downloading /bin right now and plan to re-install completely rather than upgrade (easier for me, and I always want the latest version on my removable storage media. Also, changes have been made that might result in some useless old files being left behind if the "upgrade" option is used (this will go even more strongly for 3.0). File formats have been changed, etc (for example, I think rc.local is now just called rc in v3.0). -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 08:33:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20643 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from reaper.org (root@reaper.org [196.7.140.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20633 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from salvo@reaper.org) Received: from salvo (helo=localhost) by reaper.org with local-smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG id 0yz0sq-0006yb-00; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:32:48 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:32:48 +0200 (SAT) From: Salvatore Greco To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: cvsup-ports question Message-ID: X-PGP-Fingerprint: DA 76 EA 17 AF 04 DF 67 84 3E 81 B9 59 BE D0 23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all I have a specific question to ask: In /etc/make.conf I have an entry MASTER_SITE_OVERRIDE=ftp://rodent.iafrica.com/pub/FreeBSD/distfiles/${DIST_SUBDIR}/ that is for a local FreeBSD mirror - but that mirror is not 100% up-to-date. when I make somethinf out of the latest cvsup'd ports colection (namely pine4) it goes there and then fails - then goes to the source of pine4 and fails. My question is how do I instruct the /usr/ports/ $ make pine4 to go the local site, then the ftp.freebsd.org site in that order ? MANY thanks! Salvatore -- salvo@reaper.org | http://salvo.reaper.org | whois sg4384 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 09:29:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02301 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:29:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca [24.64.63.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02295; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from purebeef@shaw.wave.ca) From: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Received: from purebeef.shaw.wave.ca ([24.64.141.183]) by norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA6807; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:30:04 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_=XFMail.1.2.p0.FreeBSD:980722122711:266=_" Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Organization: York Hill Foods To: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: using 1 machine (a FreeBSD one) to connect 2 pcs to the net via Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format --_=XFMail.1.2.p0.FreeBSD:980722122711:266=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, I have been trying to get one of our pc's (my son's), who uses windows to be able to play starcraft. Unfortunately, when he connects to battle.net he gets a message about udp packets which are failing. My configuration is 1 pc with 2 nic cards. One nic card is connected directly to the cable modem. The other nic card is connected to the hub. Finally, he is connected to the hub also. Would anyone know what is causing the udp packets to fail? I have in rc.conf, the firewall set to "open" and am using dhcpc as well as natd. However, not being well versed on the above two programs, I wonder if they are not set up right for this. The following is from ipfw.today: 01010 0 0 deny ip from 127.0.0.0/8 to 127.0.0.0/8 65535 0 0 deny ip from any to any I don't understand why it shows that. I have attached a copy of rc.firewall and rc.conf. Hopefully someone out there can tell me where I am going wrong. Your help is greatly appreciated!! Thank you in advance, Lanny Baron ---------------------------------- E-Mail: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Date: 22-Jul-98 Time: 12:12:36 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- --_=XFMail.1.2.p0.FreeBSD:980722122711:266=_ Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rc.conf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: rc.conf Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=rc.conf; SizeOnDisk=7787 IyEvYmluL3NoCiMKCiMgVGhpcyBpcyByYy5jb25mIC0gYSBmaWxlIGZ1bGwgb2YgdXNlZnVsIHZh cmlhYmxlcyB0aGF0IHlvdSBjYW4gc2V0IAojIHRvIGNoYW5nZSB0aGUgZGVmYXVsdCBzdGFydHVw IGJlaGF2aW9yIG9mIHlvdXIgc3lzdGVtLgojCiMgQWxsIGFyZ3VtZW50cyBtdXN0IGJlIGluIGRv dWJsZSBvciBzaW5nbGUgcXVvdGVzLgojCiMJJElkOiByYy5jb25mLHYgMS4xLjIuNDAgMTk5OC8w My8xNSAxNjozOTo0MSBqa2ggRXhwICQKCiMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjCiMjIyBJbXBvcnRhbnQgaW5pdGlhbCBCb290 LXRpbWUgb3B0aW9ucyAgIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjCiMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj 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hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06198 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06029 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA01750; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:41:20 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980723024116.05994@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:41:17 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Salvatore Greco Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvsup-ports question References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Salvatore Greco on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:32:48PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:32:48PM +0200, Salvatore Greco wrote: > Hi all > > I have a specific question to ask: Please ask (and answer) questions like this only on freebsd-questions. See http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ for more details. > In /etc/make.conf I have an entry > > MASTER_SITE_OVERRIDE=ftp://rodent.iafrica.com/pub/FreeBSD/distfiles/${DIST_SUBDIR}/ > > that is for a local FreeBSD mirror - but that mirror is not 100% up-to-date. > when I make somethinf out of the latest cvsup'd ports colection (namely pine4) > it goes there and then fails - then goes to the source of pine4 and fails. > > My question is how do I instruct the /usr/ports/ $ make pine4 to go the local > site, then the ftp.freebsd.org site in that order ? > > MANY thanks! > > Salvatore > > > > -- salvo@reaper.org | http://salvo.reaper.org | whois sg4384 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 10:22:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13559 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13489; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA01824; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:21:35 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980723032132.08184@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:21:32 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:20:47AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (The reason for this note is given below) Please remember that ALL requests for help, AND their answers, including those about installing and upgrading, must be sent to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, not to -newbies. This is stipulated in the list charters (conditions of use of the FreeBSD mailing lists) at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources:charters.html (see description of freebsd-newbies plus general conditions at top). A lot more information about using freebsd-newbies and getting help elsewhere is available from http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ The reason for this reminder is simply because I don't want to see anyone get themselves into strife or cause others to get into strife, either because of misuse of the lists or because of following advice which has not been checked over by the freebsd-questions group. All we are supposed to do here is point people to other lists and on line resources. The list charter (conditions of use) makes that quite clear. With the release of FreeBSD 2.2.7 many people will have questions about installing and upgrading. In particular, these types of questions must be centralised on freebsd-questions. So I'm jumping in now before we get flooded with newbies questions, guesses, answers and miscellaneous advice. Take it all to -questions, please. Many of you might not realise that "upgrading" FreeBSD is not at all like "upgrading" Windows, for example. If you don't follow the correct advice and proceed with great care YOU CAN EASILY KILL YOUR SYSTEM. There is a lot more to it than just selecting "upgrade"!! It's not hard if you know exactly what to do and do it carefully, but any upgrade is risky and what you have to do for FreeBSD might surprise you. FreeBSD-Questions is *the* place for advice and information on upgrading and installing new versions. We will have some new documentation on upgrading, written especially for newbies, fairly soon. Not soon enough for those of you who want to leap in with 2.2.7 though. Get all of your installing tips by subscribing to freebsd-questions and/or searching the mail archives regularly. I will point you to any relevant information as it becomes available. Ask here if you want to know where to find some information or how to use the mailing lists, or to discuss non-technical topics related to newbies and the way we learn. And if people who don't know better wander in here with their questions or offer to help with answers, please either ignore them or politely redirect them to -questions. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 11:21:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22619 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22593 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA01984; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 04:20:13 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980723042010.59674@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 04:20:10 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to upgrade to 2.2.7 in 10 easy steps (Rev. 1) References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:20:47AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:20:47AM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > OK: > > First off, I'm a newbie myself, and the following procedure MAY NOT but > SHOULD work just fine. If it doesn't, all the standard disclaimers apply > (& even if you tried to sue me, I have $5.00 to last the rest of the month, > so have fun!!) ;-) > Also, any old-bies here want to upgrade this to revision 2, PLEASE do so as > soon as possible! I hereby release this to the Public Domain: Tim, why don't you knock this into shape and offer it for the Handbook or FAQ? The procedure would be basically: 1. Run your ideas past freebsd-questions for corrections and info about the best way of proceeding with an upgrade 2. Post your corrected and revised document to freebsd-doc and ask for feedback. It's something we need and you've done a lot of the work already, so why not follow it through if you have time? (Is that a nudge or is that a nudge :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 13:01:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13549 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13523 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup411.serv.net [207.207.70.12]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24409; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:00:55 -0700 To: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) In-Reply-To: <19980723032132.08184@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:21 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >Many of you might not realise that "upgrading" FreeBSD is not at all >like "upgrading" Windows, for example. Actually, in many ways, it is. >If you don't follow the correct >advice and proceed with great care YOU CAN EASILY KILL YOUR SYSTEM. Same with upgrading Windows. Maybe not kill your system, but just upgrading on top of an old installation is usually a bad idea with Windows, MS recommendation or no MS recommendation. It usually results in a slow, buggy and messed up system. The best way to "upgrade" is almost always to "backup, wipe and reinstall from scratch." >There is a lot more to it than just selecting "upgrade"!! It's not hard >if you know exactly what to do and do it carefully, but any upgrade is >risky and what you have to do for FreeBSD might surprise you. This goes for any OS. Thanks for the warnings though (I'm not denying that they're all true). >FreeBSD-Questions is *the* place for advice and information on >upgrading and installing new versions. OK, so can we "discuss" the new version here though? -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 13:25:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17669 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:25:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17599 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA02263; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 06:23:58 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980723062353.48912@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 06:23:53 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Upgrading References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <19980723032132.08184@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:00:55PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 01:00:55PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 03:21 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > >FreeBSD-Questions is *the* place for advice and information on > >upgrading and installing new versions. > > OK, so can we "discuss" the new version here though? Of course. In fact, this will be a great opportunity to get a variety of newbies views on anything that needs addressing from more of a newbies (new freebsd-using businesses as well as home learners) perspective. For example, from our experiences we might be able to identify areas of documentation that need more attention than others, or show appreciation for any new newbie-friendliness we find in 2.2.7. I don't imagine we'll get into this with any volume or balance for a while though, until after the CDs have started shipping for example. Personally I don't see any need to upgrade if 2.2.6 is working fine as it is. I tend to be one of those people who sit back and wait for the screams of pain to die down before deciding if there is any real incentive to upgrade, and 2.2.6 is pretty solid. I might keep upgrading a few individual packages, but that's no sweat. Maybe it's too many years of using other operating systems that's made me so slow and cynical. Sure, it was nice to get rid of 2.1.5 but now even 2.2.2 still serves most of my needs :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 13:26:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17904 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:26:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17871 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:26:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup411.serv.net [207.207.70.12]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA26487; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722132254.0081b2b0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:22:54 -0700 To: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: One last thing on upgrading... In-Reply-To: <19980723032132.08184@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:21 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >Many of you might not realise that "upgrading" FreeBSD is not at all >like "upgrading" Windows, for example. If you don't follow the correct >advice and proceed with great care YOU CAN EASILY KILL YOUR SYSTEM. One more thing I'd like to point out. The "Upgrade an existing system" option in sysinstall has never "killed my system" completely as far as destroying all files on the system, clearing the partition/slices or anything (I've used it many times) - however, it's **NOTORIOUS for frying the contents of /etc**, which contains all your most important configuration files. If anyone chooses to use it, BACK UP /ETC, INCLUDING SUBDIRECTORIES OF /ETC, first. Then, *make sure* to go through the "post install configuration" after the upgrade, as usually the "upgrade existing system" clears the root password as well as some of the other configurations you had previously set up. But afaik it won't literally KILL the system. Sue is right though, you need to proceed with CAUTION! MAKE BACKUPS!!!!! That's the last I'll say on this, since I don't know if Sue considers this a "questionary" type post or not. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 14:02:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23795 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23789 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:02:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup411.serv.net [207.207.70.12]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA00387; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722140224.00821440@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:02:24 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: How to upgrade to 2.2.7 in 10 easy steps (Rev. 1) Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980723042010.59674@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's a possibility, although I think someone already has a web page up with a "complete beginner's guide to FreeBSD" that includes install instructions. I'm not sure about "Upgrading for beginners," though, so I'll take it under serious consideration. There are many ways you can upgrade FreeBSD (someone on Usenet mentioned the source code method as well, using "make world" to rebuild the entire system from the source tree (although that one is probably not so hot for newbies). At 04:20 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >Tim, why don't you knock this into shape and offer it for the Handbook >or FAQ? The procedure would be basically: > >1. Run your ideas past freebsd-questions for corrections and info > about the best way of proceeding with an upgrade >2. Post your corrected and revised document to freebsd-doc and ask for > feedback. > >It's something we need and you've done a lot of the work already, so >why not follow it through if you have time? (Is that a nudge or is that >a nudge :-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 14:47:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01991 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns0.iticom.net (root@[208.139.225.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA01985 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from support@iwebb.com) Received: from iwebb.com by ns0.iticom.net ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:45:27 +000 Message-ID: <35B5F0B5.67901EA@iwebb.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:01:26 -0500 From: Support Reply-To: trouble@webfyre.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: One last thing on upgrading... References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722132254.0081b2b0@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 03:21 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > >Many of you might not realise that "upgrading" FreeBSD is not at all > >like "upgrading" Windows, for example. If you don't follow the correct > >advice and proceed with great care YOU CAN EASILY KILL YOUR SYSTEM. > > One more thing I'd like to point out. The "Upgrade an existing system" > option in sysinstall has never "killed my system" completely as far as > destroying all files on the system, clearing the partition/slices or > anything (I've used it many times) - however, it's **NOTORIOUS for frying > the contents of /etc**, which contains all your most important > configuration files. If anyone chooses to use it, BACK UP /ETC, INCLUDING > SUBDIRECTORIES OF /ETC, first. Then, *make sure* to go through the "post > install configuration" after the upgrade, as usually the "upgrade existing > system" clears the root password as well as some of the other > configurations you had previously set up. But afaik it won't literally > KILL the system. Sue is right though, you need to proceed with CAUTION! > MAKE BACKUPS!!!!! > > That's the last I'll say on this, since I don't know if Sue considers this > a "questionary" type post or not. Hah.... Im completely new to FreeBSD, but not Unix....... Have been running 2.2.6 for bout 3 weeks now.... I love it, and Im brave.... Upgraded the 2.2.6 to 2.2.7 today with not one error, or mishap......... it was easier then Nuking a TV dinner........ after the upgrade, I rebooted, recompiled my kernel for dhcp. rebooted again and back on the internet........ god i love FreeBSD and Cablemodems.... So ive said my part, betcha my 7 year old daughter could have done it.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 14:48:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02284 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:48:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02269 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29880 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09097 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:47:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.cybercom.net: ksmm owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:47:49 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive X-Sender: ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: One last thing on upgrading... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722132254.0081b2b0@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have seen instances where it's possible for the kernel to get out of sync with certain commands/utilities that are sensitive to kernel changes, like ps and df. More cautions for the upgrading newbie... K.S. On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: : At 03:21 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: : : >Many of you might not realise that "upgrading" FreeBSD is not at all : >like "upgrading" Windows, for example. If you don't follow the correct : >advice and proceed with great care YOU CAN EASILY KILL YOUR SYSTEM. : : One more thing I'd like to point out. The "Upgrade an existing system" : option in sysinstall has never "killed my system" completely as far as : destroying all files on the system, clearing the partition/slices or : anything (I've used it many times) - however, it's **NOTORIOUS for frying : the contents of /etc**, which contains all your most important : configuration files. If anyone chooses to use it, BACK UP /ETC, INCLUDING : SUBDIRECTORIES OF /ETC, first. Then, *make sure* to go through the "post : install configuration" after the upgrade, as usually the "upgrade existing : system" clears the root password as well as some of the other : configurations you had previously set up. But afaik it won't literally : KILL the system. Sue is right though, you need to proceed with CAUTION! : MAKE BACKUPS!!!!! : : That's the last I'll say on this, since I don't know if Sue considers this : a "questionary" type post or not. : : : -- : My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - : lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. : : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org : with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 14:52:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02999 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02903 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:52:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup411.serv.net [207.207.70.12]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05409; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722145133.00822160@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:51:33 -0700 To: trouble@webfyre.com From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: One last thing on upgrading... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35B5F0B5.67901EA@iwebb.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722132254.0081b2b0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did you use sysinstall to upgrade ("Upgrade an existing system?") If so, try upgrading when the upgrade doesn't include the "bin" distribution - like, for example, trying to upgrade just the source tree or just Xfree86. You'll be in for a nasty surprise, chances are 95/100. At 09:01 AM 7/22/98 -0500, Support wrote: >Hah.... Im completely new to FreeBSD, but not Unix....... Have been running >2.2.6 for bout 3 weeks now.... I love it, and Im brave.... Upgraded the 2.2.6 >to 2.2.7 today with not one error, or mishap......... it was easier then >Nuking a TV dinner........ after the upgrade, I rebooted, recompiled my >kernel for dhcp. rebooted again and back on the internet........ god i love >FreeBSD and Cablemodems.... So ive said my part, betcha my 7 year old >daughter could have done it.... -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 15:00:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04528 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns0.iticom.net (root@[208.139.225.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04471 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:00:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from support@iwebb.com) Received: from iwebb.com by ns0.iticom.net ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:58:06 +000 Message-ID: <35B5F3AA.B975C231@iwebb.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:14:02 -0500 From: Support Reply-To: trouble@webfyre.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: One last thing on upgrading... References: <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722132254.0081b2b0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722145133.00822160@mx.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Did you use sysinstall to upgrade ("Upgrade an existing system?") If so, > try upgrading when the upgrade doesn't include the "bin" distribution - > like, for example, trying to upgrade just the source tree or just Xfree86. > You'll be in for a nasty surprise, chances are 95/100. > > At 09:01 AM 7/22/98 -0500, Support wrote: Nope did it with the 2.2.7 boot disk.... !!! and im not too sure if id upgrade just X, without libs, or just sources without bins and libs...!!! afetr all who could know whats changed......!! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 15:01:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04835 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:01:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04820 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:01:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA09679; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:57:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:57:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman X-Sender: chrisc@vnode To: Tim Gerchmez cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have you tried a "source upgrade"? Basically: cd /usr/src cvsup stable-supfile.cvsup make buildworld && installworld Then you might want to upgrade the /etc/ directory and maybe make a new kernel if you have upgraded a big amount. I do this once a month in my /etc/monthly script. -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 16:01:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14647 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14639 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:01:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA02738; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:00:51 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980723090047.45011@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:00:47 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Chris Coleman Cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) References: <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Coleman on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:57:58PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:57:58PM -0400, Chris Coleman wrote: > Have you tried a "source upgrade"? > > Basically: > > cd /usr/src > cvsup stable-supfile.cvsup > make buildworld && installworld Of course there's a bit more to it than that, but without discussing the actual technique (-questions and/or the Handbook for that) I'd like to have a bit of a newbie dummy-spit here :-) Sorry Chris, I don't mean to put down your response, but earlier this year a lot of people on -questions were stating this as *the* approach, without realising that some people (don't know they) can't follow it. A few FreeBSD users have not bothered to install the sources. Perhaps they have no room, or never imagined using them. This happens to apply to a lot of newbies because a lot of home user/learners are newbies. A few FreeBSD users don't have a good Internet connection. Perhaps they dial in from home where combined local or long distance phone charges and Internet time and/or bandwidth charges (both of which differ hugely for different contries) can get pretty costly. Around here, for example, a lot of Internet accounts charge by the minute or automatically cut you off after say 1-3 hours on line, in order to reduce overall usage. I suspect that a larger than average proportion of home newbies have limitations to their Internet access. Those more well equipped often recommend cvsup because the method is the easiest for them so it sounds good for newbies. There's nothing wrong with that; a little practice and a lot of reading and anyone can do it. What I'd like to see, though, is more appreciation for the limits that a lot of people are working within. As I mentioned on -questions, it is no longer realistic to assume that these resources are available to newbies, and it would help a great deal if recommendations were accompanied by lists of required resources. Where use of disk space or a high volume download is involved, it can be pretty important to have some idea whether it's more like 1 or 10 or 100 megabytes we're talking about. I've found it extremely difficult to find that kind of guidance. Well, they don't have to count and worry; they just do it. Aah, what luxury! :-) If you happen to have hundreds of megabytes sitting idle on your FreeBSD partition, and Internet use doesn't cost you an arm and three legs, then there's probably no reason not to install the sources and have a stab at cvsup if you want to, especially if it's only a home use machine. But I have no idea what would happen if you ran out of disk space half way through, for example. I doubt it would be much fun. If it were me, upon that kind of advice I might consider reinstalling FreeBSD from the old CD, complete with sources this time, onto a much larger partition, and getting another Internet account that had a pricing scheme more suited to large downloads. But I would know that, without being told that it was necessary. I wonder how many other newbies would have known? I believe the root cause of the problem here is that the FreeBSD community is not used to having so many home users and unix-newbies around. For years they've been working with ample hardware and enough background to work most things out for themselves, and so have the majority of FreeBSD users they've known about. Of course many FreeBSD newbies also fall into this category, but these days increasing numbers of newbies don't. Sometimes the advice we get from -questions makes accidental assumptions about our resources and it's necessary to proceed with caution, perhaps follow up with a question about resources required, if you know you are working within limitations (and that's another good reason to supply details of your system when asking a question). There are some areas of the documentation that I think could be improved for us by hinting at, for example, the amount of disk space required. Of course, if I start complaining about this too loudly I'm gonna have to do something about it :-) Maybe I'll take a newbie-look at the Handbook some time soon and see if I'm right or wrong. Actually, since nobody else has come up with this particular dummy-spit before, I might have missed the point somewhere. Please correct me if you think that's so. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 16:09:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15306 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15300 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup411.serv.net [207.207.70.12]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA13687; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722153630.00825e30@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:36:30 -0700 To: Chris Coleman From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't keep much of the source tree on my system - uses too much disk space that I need for other things. I'm not really much of a C programmer. At 05:57 PM 7/22/98 -0400, Chris Coleman wrote: >Have you tried a "source upgrade"? > >Basically: > > cd /usr/src > cvsup stable-supfile.cvsup > make buildworld && installworld -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 16:09:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15323 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15299 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA02751; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:03:59 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980723090356.20653@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:03:56 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Disk space poll Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm curious... How large is your FreeBSD partition now? And how large did you make the partition when you first tried to install FreeBSD? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 16:29:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18313 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18293 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:29:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10007; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:28:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:28:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman X-Sender: chrisc@vnode To: Sue Blake cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) In-Reply-To: <19980723090047.45011@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A few FreeBSD users have not bothered to install the sources. Perhaps > they have no room, or never imagined using them. This happens to apply > to a lot of newbies because a lot of home user/learners are newbies. > > A few FreeBSD users don't have a good Internet connection. Perhaps they > dial in from home where combined local or long distance phone charges > and Internet time and/or bandwidth charges (both of which differ hugely > for different contries) can get pretty costly. Around here, for > example, a lot of Internet accounts charge by the minute or > automatically cut you off after say 1-3 hours on line, in order to > reduce overall usage. I suspect that a larger than average proportion > of home newbies have limitations to their Internet access. Sue raised some good points. Resources Needed. Disk Space: Installed Sources: 114683 K Compile Time Disk Space: 113883 K (This is only temporarily needed to store obj files.) Time -Alot of time on a slow machine, Like 24+ hours on a 486 Download time/Internet Connection The hard part in getting the base installed. Once you have a base of /usr/src installed (even and old one.), its really quick and veritably non-Internet intensive to keep current. I download the changed src files daily. Usually about 5 files. Real quick and easy. So if you meet these requirements, it fairly easy to keep current. I put a few lines in my /etc/daily and /etc/monthly to keep my machines current. Disk space would in my opinion be the biggest figure, becuase you can let it compile at night when the cpu is idle anyway, and download smaller chunks daily while it is getting e-mail or something. So storage for the /usr/src and the temporary /usr/obj directories are all that is really a obstacle in this scenario. You can learn how to do this very easily. -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 16:31:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18847 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hercules.telenet-ops.be (hercules.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18836 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:31:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from InfoSol@pandora.be) Received: from pc3 ([195.130.134.47]) by hercules.telenet-ops.be (Netscape Messaging Server 3.52) with SMTP id AAA529 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:30:41 +0200 Reply-To: "Jozef Baum" From: "Jozef Baum" To: Subject: Trying to keep up in a fast changing world Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:29:06 +0200 Message-ID: <01bdb5c8$85387bc0$LocalHost@pc3> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Yes, yet another newbie who would like to share some first experiences and questions with you. Late May I started with FreeBSD, reading the general information available on www.nl.freebsd.org (the nearest mirror site, as I live in Belgium - please excuse me for my mistakes in English, which is not my native tongue). I was happy to see 2.2.6 was relatively new and ordered the 4 CD set at Walnut Creek. I got it only after 3 weeks, because I paid with my credit card, but for overseas orders they wait until they have cashed the money before shipping the product ! I then started to learn about FreeBSD with the Handbook and installing the operating system several times. The first time, it didn't work, because I had disabled the sysconsole driver (nobody had told me it was required, and there was no device called "sysconsole" on my PC's hardware list :-)). The second time, I got the system up and running, so I continued with the Handbook's chapter 3 and read about the info files, which I didn't have online because I had choosen a "normal user" setup. At that time, I had no idea about how I could add the info files, so to me the only workaround was to start over installing FreeBSD and choose "everything". You see, some things may seem obvious to advanced users, but not to newbies ... As I unfortunately can't spend much time on FreeBSD and the Handbook seems to be work in progress, I print it out in small parts in order to have always the latest update. This leads to my first question about the Handbook: how can I know that some previous part I already studied has been updated, so that I can print it out again and keep my hardcopy of the Handbook up to date? Will I see a message about it in the announce mailing list? Now I felt a little bit sad to see the 2.2.6 version I just bought is already an old version, because 2.2.7 has been released. How to keep up with something that evolves so fast? A new version gets released long before I could study the previous one! I know I could just go on with 2.2.6, but then comes my second question: what about the Handbook on the website? For how long will it cover the 2.2.6 version I have, instead of the newer 2.2.7? Greetings, jozef.baum@advalvas.be P.S. - Yes, I know, I composed and sent this message with Microsoft's Internet Explorer, but I feel it will take some more time before I get my FreeBSD system connected to the Internet. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 17:01:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24658 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:01:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24651 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost by junior.apk.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA25229; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:00:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disk space poll In-Reply-To: <19980723090356.20653@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > I'm curious... > > > How large is your FreeBSD partition now? > 2 GB > > And how large did you make the partition when you first tried > to install FreeBSD? > I always used the entire drive. -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 17:13:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27021 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27005 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup503.serv.net [207.207.70.68]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA20828; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722171241.0081b330@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:12:41 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Upgrading Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980723062353.48912@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <19980723032132.08184@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:23 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >Personally I don't see any need to upgrade if 2.2.6 is working fine as >it is. I tend to be one of those people who sit back and wait for the >screams of pain to die down before deciding if there is any real >incentive to upgrade, and 2.2.6 is pretty solid. I might keep upgrading >a few individual packages, but that's no sweat. I see some reasons, although not a great deal: (1) If running as a server, some security holes have been closed. That's ALWAYS important, to some more than others. (2) If long filenames are important to you on a VFAT/Win95 FAT32 partition, that's a good enough reason IMO. This is actually the main reason why *I'M* upgrading. This is a feature I've wanted for quite awhile now. (3) Packages. Many, many packages have been upgraded and added since 2.2.6. If Sysinstall allows access to them, it's much easier that way, since dependencies are taken care of automatically (you can download them manually, but how do you know what a certain package might require in the way of dependencies? That can be a very time-consuming way to download packages... pkg_add... go back get dependencies... THOSE dependencies have dependencies, etc). Sysinstall makes it MUCH easier. Other than those, I don't see a lot of reasons, other than that it's fun to have a new and potentially slightly more powerful/faster release of FreeBSD on your system, at least for me :-) Also, some changes in 3.0 have been implemented, so upgrading now will allow for a more gradual transition to 3.0 (which is going to be a major upgrade with a lot of config filename changes in /etc, for example) >Maybe it's too many years of using other operating systems that's made >me so slow and cynical. Sure, it was nice to get rid of 2.1.5 but now >even 2.2.2 still serves most of my needs :-) No, you're very justified in not seeing many reasons to upgrade. 2.2.6 to 2.2.7 is a fairly minor upgrade, and a fairly long download if getting it via that method (and messing with a solid, working system is ALWAYS a pain, one way or another). Now, if you say the same thing come the 3.0 release in October, I WILL call you slow and cynical , as there will be *MANY* changes in that release (some of the RELNOTES on current.freebsd.org just blew me away entirely. It's almost going to look like a brand new OS with 3.0! *TONS* of additions, bug fixes and enhancements, most of them really cool and important from my point of view. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 17:19:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28373 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28338 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:19:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup503.serv.net [207.207.70.68]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA21401; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722171854.0081f440@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:18:54 -0700 To: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Disk space poll In-Reply-To: <19980723090356.20653@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:03 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >I'm curious... > > >How large is your FreeBSD partition now? * 1.35 gigabytes on my main machine * 200 megs on my "mini-machine" in my computer workshop (with a full X install including some packages!) >And how large did you make the partition when you first tried >to install FreeBSD? * 1 gigabyte (but I had an entirely different drive and system configuration then). -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 17:37:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01034 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01027 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup503.serv.net [207.207.70.68]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA23122; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722173656.0082aa30@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:36:56 -0700 To: Sue Blake , Chris Coleman From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980723090047.45011@welearn.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:00 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >A few FreeBSD users have not bothered to install the sources. Perhaps >they have no room, or never imagined using them. This happens to apply >to a lot of newbies because a lot of home user/learners are newbies. To me, the only sources that are important are the ones that allow me to build a custom kernel (ssys and the header files). Other than that, I'm not a C programmer, don't follow -current or -stable, and have no reason to install more. Uncompressed source code eats a LOT of disk space I'd rather save for future packages and ports I want. If I suddenly decided I wanted to become a C programmer, you can get C sources all over the Net, just about anywhere, for just about anything not only in the FreeBSD distribution. Besides, I'd be more likely to want to write my own stuff, not alter system binaries and recompile them. >If you happen to have hundreds of megabytes sitting idle on your >FreeBSD partition, and Internet use doesn't cost you an arm and three >legs, then there's probably no reason not to install the sources and >have a stab at cvsup if you want to, especially if it's only a home use >machine. But I have no idea what would happen if you ran out of disk >space half way through, for example. I doubt it would be much fun. I've had it happen. FreeBSD handles it surprisingly well. You get repeated scrolling "Filesystem is full" messages, but the installer doesn't terminate. It will finish the install anyway, and most likely let you log in (at which point you can delete some stuff). This was when I was experimenting with the 200 meg partition I mentioned. I was amazed how gracefully FreeBSD handled it. One of the Windows OS's would probably simply die and never come back again... BTW, Sue (and this is simply an observation/opinion, please don't take it as an insult)... you tend to be very wordy in your posts... this is neither good nor bad... some say it better short and sweet, some get their point across better in long paragraphs (short story writers vs. novelists? ;-). I tend to be like you in that department. Sometimes I'll get to rambling so long that I notice it and manage to trim my posts down from 500 words to 50 while still saying precisely the same thing! :-) -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 17:46:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02332 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02288; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup503.serv.net [207.207.70.68]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24093; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722174539.00837850@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:45:39 -0700 To: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: using 1 machine (a FreeBSD one) to connect 2 pcs to the net via In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Grrrrr.... anyone who EVER sends a series of attachments to me again via a mailing list without my permission is going to get mailbombed with 10,000 ads for Sam's Spam Sandwiches... At 12:27 PM 7/22/98 -0400, purebeef@shaw.wave.ca wrote: > Hello, GOODBYE!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrr...... -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 17:49:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03010 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:49:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cybcon.com (root@mail.cybcon.com [205.147.64.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02991 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:49:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wwoods@cybcon.com) Received: from support1.cybcon.com (support1.cybcon.com [205.147.76.99]) by mail.cybcon.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA03449; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722173656.0082aa30@mx.serv.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: wwoods@cybcon.com From: William Woods To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Chris Coleman , Sue Blake Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > BTW, Sue (and this is simply an observation/opinion, please don't take it > as an insult)... you tend to be very wordy in your posts... this is neither > good nor bad... some say it better short and sweet, some get their point > across better in long paragraphs (short story writers vs. novelists? ;-). > I tend to be like you in that department. Sometimes I'll get to rambling > so long that I notice it and manage to trim my posts down from 500 words to > Interesting observation.....I neither agree or disagree, but, must say I like these (The FreeBSD lists) better that the Linux lists. I used to use linux and got real tired of getting answers that were 4 letters ling...(RTFM). BTW, to the moderators...you guys do a great job :), while I am not a "newbie" in the sence of being new to Unix, I admin a FreeBSD, BSDI and SCO systems and try to help out when I can here and on -questions, I can STILL learn a lot, I am not a know-it-all by any means. ---------------------------------- William Woods --> FreeBSD 2.2.6 <-- Date: 22-Jul-98 Time: 17:44:22 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 18:02:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04915 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca [24.64.63.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04910 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:02:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from purebeef@shaw.wave.ca) From: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Received: from purebeef.shaw.wave.ca ([24.64.141.183]) by norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA8357; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:03:05 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980723090356.20653@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Organization: York Hill Foods To: Sue Blake Subject: RE: Disk space poll Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: > I'm curious... > > > How large is your FreeBSD partition now? > > > And how large did you make the partition when you first tried > to install FreeBSD? > > > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > Well to answer your question, when I first learned about FreeBSD. It was with 1.1.5 and at the time my family owned a small ISP here in Toronto. So we used about 36 gigs on 3 machines. But that was then. Since that time, I have been using FreeBSD for personal use. Unfortunately there is no accounting software for FreeBSD to my knowledge. I have about 2 gigs on one drive and 245megs (as /home) on another for FreeBSD. regards, Lanny ---------------------------------- E-Mail: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Date: 22-Jul-98 Time: 20:57:01 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 18:59:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14388 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:59:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14381 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-11.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.75]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27816; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980723090356.20653@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:59:08 -0300 (ADT) Reply-To: arthur@col.auracom.com From: arthur To: Sue Blake Subject: RE: Disk space poll Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: > I'm curious... > > > How large is your FreeBSD partition now? > 2 Gb > > And how large did you make the partition when you first tried > to install FreeBSD? > ... approx 350 Mb, that was short lived, as soon as I seen how easy it was to add drives and slices, etc etc .... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 18:59:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14423 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (root@mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14410 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-11.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.75]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27895; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722171241.0081b330@mx.serv.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:59:53 -0300 (ADT) Reply-To: arthur@col.auracom.com From: arthur To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Upgrading Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Sue Blake Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jul-98 Tim Gerchmez wrote: > At 06:23 AM 7/23/98 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > >>Personally I don't see any need to upgrade if 2.2.6 is working fine as >>it is. I tend to be one of those people who sit back and wait for the >>screams of pain to die down before deciding if there is any real >>incentive to upgrade, and 2.2.6 is pretty solid. I might keep upgrading >>a few individual packages, but that's no sweat. > .. I'm still happy with 2.2.5 .... > I see some reasons, although not a great deal: > (snip) > > Other than those, I don't see a lot of reasons, other than that it's > fun to > have a new and potentially slightly more powerful/faster release of > FreeBSD > on your system, at least for me :-) Also, some changes in 3.0 have > been > implemented, so upgrading now will allow for a more gradual transition > to > 3.0 (which is going to be a major upgrade with a lot of config filename > changes in /etc, for example) > >>Maybe it's too many years of using other operating systems that's made >>me so slow and cynical. Sure, it was nice to get rid of 2.1.5 but now >>even 2.2.2 still serves most of my needs :-) > ... I'd see it as being cautious, that's why I'm in no big rush to upgrade, I'll wait till 3.0, hopefully add and change some hardware around, start with a clean system again. In general, just have some fun with FreeBSD. > No, you're very justified in not seeing many reasons to upgrade. 2.2.6 > to > 2.2.7 is a fairly minor upgrade, and a fairly long download if getting > it > via that method (and messing with a solid, working system is ALWAYS a > pain, > one way or another). Now, if you say the same thing come the 3.0 > release > in October, I WILL call you slow and cynical , as there will be > *MANY* > changes in that release (some of the RELNOTES on current.freebsd.org > just > blew me away entirely. It's almost going to look like a brand new OS > with > 3.0! *TONS* of additions, bug fixes and enhancements, most of them > really > cool and important from my point of view. > > Tim > ... umm, I plan to wait till 3.0 and then finally get the cd/book set, I hear the book is pretty good .. ;) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Jul 22 23:33:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19898 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme70.sunshine.net [209.17.178.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19880 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA00532; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:32:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:32:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disk space poll In-Reply-To: <19980723090356.20653@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Sue Blake wrote: => I'm curious... => => => How large is your FreeBSD partition now? => => => And how large did you make the partition when you first tried => to install FreeBSD? I started with 500MB on my first install(2.1.6 I think it was). Every install after that was a reason to erode away my win-whatever. At present I have two machines: 386 450MB split evenly(+/-) between FBSD and DOS/Win3.1 Pentium - 2 Drives 814MB 30MB / 1036MB all /usr & /var I still want more room for FBSD! At least I have a subscription now that I can more easily try many different packages without laborious downloads :-) I tell you all, once you get yourself a CD set you'll never go back. Regards, Kevin G. Eliuk Discover Rock Solid, Discover FreeBSD | http://www.FreeBSD.Org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 01:43:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08757 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:43:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from a486n1.znh.org (dialup4.gaffaneys.com [208.155.161.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08739 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zach@gaffaneys.com) Received: (from zach@localhost) by a486n1.znh.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16683; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:47:02 GMT (envelope-from zach) Message-ID: <19980723034702.B16072@znh.org.> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:47:02 -0500 From: Zach Heilig To: Chris Coleman , Sue Blake Cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Upgrading and Use of this list (gentle reminder) References: <19980723090047.45011@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Coleman on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 07:28:52PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 07:28:52PM -0400, Chris Coleman wrote: > Time -Alot of time on a slow machine, > Like 24+ hours on a 486 Unless it's a particularly slow 486, it won't take anywhere near that long. My 486 takes 6-7 hours to compile the world (with 64Meg/ram, and IDE drives that can sustain ~3Meg/second). P5-166/mmx took ~4 hours, K6-233 took ~2.75 hours, K6-300 takes ~1.5 hours. These all use(d) the same single old SCSI disk that can barely (if even) sustain 2Meg/second, and 64Meg sdram. -- Zach Heilig -- zach@gaffaneys.com Real Programs don't use shared text. Otherwise, how can they use functions for scratch space after they are finished calling them? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 03:26:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22495 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22490 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:26:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup503.serv.net [207.207.70.68]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA02262; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723032558.0082f420@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:25:58 -0700 To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" , Sue Blake From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: Disk space poll Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19980723090356.20653@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:32 PM 7/22/98 -0700, Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: >I still want more room for FBSD! At least I have a subscription now that >I can more easily try many different packages without laborious >downloads :-) I tell you all, once you get yourself a CD set you'll >never go back. Do you have any idea how quickly packages get updated? Probably at the time v3.0 of FreeBSD is released, 95% of current packages will have been upgraded, and a large number of new ones added since 2.2.6. As of now, about 75% have been upgraded, and there are many new additions to 2.2.7. CD's get old faster than a mayfly. Personally, I'd rather have ISDN, ADSL or a cable modem to download FreeBSD... to me that would be 1000 times better than any CD :-) Unfortunately I'm still stuck with a 33.6k modem, and STILL downloading 2.2.7 (after about 12-16 hrs... currently updating package changes). -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 04:33:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02477 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 04:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA02472 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 04:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup503.serv.net [207.207.70.68]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA04896 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 04:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723043251.00831c40@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 04:32:51 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Thanking the FreeBSD team Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You know, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm really grateful to have access to a stable, powerful and capable OS like FreeBSD, given away entirely free of charge to all comers. I just took a moment to extend my thanks to the team, and would like to suggest that anyone reading this who appreciates FreeBSD take the time to do the same. Here's the page for Email addresses to write to: http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook355.html#693 I'd like to invite everyone who reads this newsgroup to take just a minute out of your time to thank somebody on the team for their efforts in this latest release, and for continuing efforts in developing versions to come. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 07:48:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26811 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme47.sunshine.net [209.17.178.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26806 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA01218; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:47:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: Tim Gerchmez cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disk space poll In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980723032558.0082f420@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Tim Gerchmez wrote: => At 11:32 PM 7/22/98 -0700, Kevin G. Eliuk wrote: => => >I still want more room for FBSD! At least I have a subscription now that => >I can more easily try many different packages without laborious => >downloads :-) I tell you all, once you get yourself a CD set you'll => >never go back. => => Do you have any idea how quickly packages get updated? Probably at the Uh huh, => time v3.0 of FreeBSD is released, 95% of current packages will have been => upgraded, and a large number of new ones added since 2.2.6. As of now, => about 75% have been upgraded, and there are many new additions to 2.2.7. => CD's get old faster than a mayfly. oh yeah, only have to try to keep current with lynx to know that :-) I use the ports if I decide that I want a more current version than what is available on the CD. And my reasons for getting the subscriptions are varied as well, its nice to be putting money into wcarchive as well, that the time and confidence that they have put into FreeBSD are rewarded. But this is repeating what jkh said in his announce of the last two releases. Now what to do with the 2.2.6-RELEASE that is on the shelf. => Personally, I'd rather have ISDN, ADSL or a cable modem to download => FreeBSD... to me that would be 1000 times better than any CD :-) => Unfortunately I'm still stuck with a 33.6k modem, and STILL downloading => 2.2.7 (after about 12-16 hrs... currently updating package changes). I remember those downloads, yuck. I assume that you have a plan where you are at that offers unlimited internet access for a set price. I am not so lucky here in that the package that I have is limited to 60hrs. What surprises me is the times that you have reported for your dl's. I recall doing a complete install, sources and the works, and that took 14 hours on a 14.4 modem. I don't doubt it because I have noticed a similar occurance with a 56k modem I am currently testing, where the connection rate is 44,000 - 48,000 and the fastest I have been able to attain from a compressed dl is 1.4 - 1.6 kbs. I work for the local ISP, and we discuss this often. Regards, Kevin G. Eliuk Discover Rock Solid, Discover FreeBSD | http://www.FreeBSD.Org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 08:09:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29779 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.gorge.net (dns3.gorge.net [205.162.195.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29774 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:09:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ice_cold@cryogen.com) Received: from nickm ([208.14.145.3]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-40184U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA106 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:24:51 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723080649.00799cc0@gorge.net> X-Sender: nickm@gorge.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:06:49 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Ice_Cold Subject: Re: Disk space poll In-Reply-To: <19980723090356.20653@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:03 AM 7/23/98 +1000, you wrote: >I'm curious... > > >How large is your FreeBSD partition now? > 1 gig >And how large did you make the partition when you first tried >to install FreeBSD? Started with a 486 25SX with 420 mb -It worked surprisingly well considering the system Now it's found it's way to half my main computers hard drive. *@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@* *@ It's only a mistake if you don't learn from it *@* *@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 08:51:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06331 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06325 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA05817 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:49:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:49:30 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199807231549.IAA05817@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disk space poll In-Reply-To: <19980723104426.05352@welearn.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:40:21 +1000 >From: Sue Blake >How large is your FreeBSD partition now? >And how large did you make the partition when you first tried >to install FreeBSD? I had some difficulty figuring out how (well, to be honest, or whether) to respond to the above. Some of the inhabitants of -newbies may well recall (sorry if this bores y'all), but some might not: I work as a UNIX systems administrator, and most of the machines of which I have oversight run FreeBSD. I have no reason to consider using anything less than the entire machine's resources for FreeBSD; one of them looks roughly like: shrimp[69]% df -k -t ufs -t mfs Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd0s1a 27679 16174 9291 64% / mfs:23 127151 81 116898 0% /tmp /dev/sd0s1f 356911 303369 24990 92% /usr /dev/sd0s1e 31775 15034 14199 51% /var /dev/sd1s1e 1068539 737881 245175 75% /shrimp/usr/local /dev/sd3s1 2053102 1706190 182664 90% /shrimp/tribe /dev/sd4s1 2063886 378674 1520102 20% /shrimp/home /dev/sd2g 4046491 1968366 1754406 53% /shrimp/ftp /dev/sd2d 4578029 1 4211786 0% /shrimp/tmp shrimp[70]% swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/sd0s1b 131072 47652 83356 36% Interleaved (That "/shrimp/tmp" is a 4.5GB "amanda holding disk" -- basically, a big speed-matching buffer for backups.) The desktop I happen to be using looks like: pau-amma[5]% df -k -t ufs -t mfs && swapinfo Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd0s1a 23583 15191 6506 70% / mfs:20 254319 55 233919 0% /tmp /dev/sd0s1g 1201967 292402 813408 26% /pau-amma/home /dev/sd0s1f 508655 322331 145632 69% /usr /dev/sd0s1e 11295 1734 8658 17% /var Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/sd0s1b 262144 101236 160844 39% Interleaved And for those wondering why I'm subscribed to -newbies... well, I've only been dealing with FreeBSD since the end of February (though I've used & administered UNIX systems since '86)... and this is the first time in my life I've ever needed to seriously be aware of the idiosyncracies of PC hardware (which evidently are legion). I'm hoping to learn a bit about said hardware and ways to avoid its less pleasant aspects.... Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 09:01:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08020 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.hotpop.com (hotpop.com [207.121.213.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08004 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:01:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smendoza@juriscompint.com) From: smendoza@juriscompint.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.hotpop.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07137 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org.procmail; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:05:49 GMT Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:05:49 GMT Message-Id: <199807231205.MAA07137@mail.hotpop.com> Subject: Re: Thanking the FreeBSD team MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=------------901195549 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To: undisclosed-recipients:; This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------901195549 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Get your FREE POP EMAIL at HotPOP.com!!!
--------------901195549 Yes, Thanx to all of them, I've sent 'em already Simon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 09:30:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13369 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:30:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.hotpop.com (hotpop.com [207.121.213.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13278 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:30:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smendoza@juriscompint.com) From: smendoza@juriscompint.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.hotpop.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10758 for newbies@freebsd.org.procmail; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:50 GMT Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:50 GMT Message-Id: <199807231234.MAA10758@mail.hotpop.com> Subject: Re: Trying to keep up in a fast changing world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=------------901197289 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To: undisclosed-recipients:; This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------901197289 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Get your FREE POP EMAIL at PunkAss.com!!!
--------------901197289 --------------D74C86818E455FA870EFA3FC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jozef Baum wrote: > > [Image] > Your Mac Quake Headquarters. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hello, > > Yes, yet another newbie who would like to share some first experiences and > questions with you. > > Late May I started with FreeBSD, reading the general information available > on www.nl.freebsd.org (the nearest mirror site, as I live in Belgium - > please excuse me for my mistakes in English, which is not my native tongue). > > I was happy to see 2.2.6 was relatively new and ordered the 4 CD set at > Walnut Creek. I got it only after 3 weeks, because I paid with my credit > card, but for overseas orders they wait until they have cashed the money > before shipping the product ! > > I then started to learn about FreeBSD with the Handbook and installing the > operating system several times. > > The first time, it didn't work, because I had disabled the sysconsole driver > (nobody had told me it was required, and there was no device called > "sysconsole" on my PC's hardware list :-)). > > The second time, I got the system up and running, so I continued with the > Handbook's chapter 3 and read about the info files, which I didn't have > online because I had choosen a "normal user" setup. At that time, I had no > idea about how I could add the info files, so to me the only workaround was > to start over installing FreeBSD and choose "everything". > > You see, some things may seem obvious to advanced users, but not to newbies > ... > > As I unfortunately can't spend much time on FreeBSD and the Handbook seems > to be work in progress, I print it out in small parts in order to have > always the latest update. This leads to my first question about the > Handbook: how can I know that some previous part I already studied has been > updated, so that I can print it out again and keep my hardcopy of the > Handbook up to date? Will I see a message about it in the announce mailing > list? > > Now I felt a little bit sad to see the 2.2.6 version I just bought is > already an old version, because 2.2.7 has been released. How to keep up with > something that evolves so fast? A new version gets released long before I > could study the previous one! I know I could just go on with 2.2.6, but then > comes my second question: what about the Handbook on the website? For how > long will it cover the 2.2.6 version I have, instead of the newer 2.2.7? > > Greetings, > > jozef.baum@advalvas.be > > P.S. - Yes, I know, I composed and sent this message with Microsoft's > Internet Explorer, but I feel it will take some more time before I get my > FreeBSD system connected to the Internet. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > Very good, I thought I was the only one who went through all that when I first got my first 2-CD version of 2.2.2. But to say the truth, don't bother, since as you have said, you are a newbie, and your main concern is to "upgrade" from newbie to not-newbie. Even in the Handbook you will find references to very old releases (like 2.1.x) so stick to the main ideas of the handbook and faqs, and always keep coming over the list and asking questions (in "questions@freebsd.org, of course!!). Greetings Simon. --------------D74C86818E455FA870EFA3FC Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------C15918712314CA98135618DA" --------------C15918712314CA98135618DA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jozef Baum wrote:
 
Your Mac Quake Headquarters.
Hello,

Yes, yet another newbie who would like to share some first experiences and
questions with you.

Late May I started with FreeBSD, reading the general information available
on www.nl.freebsd.org (the nearest mirror site, as I live in Belgium -
please excuse me for my mistakes in English, which is not my native tongue).

I was happy to see 2.2.6 was relatively new and ordered the 4 CD set at
Walnut Creek. I got it only after 3 weeks, because I paid with my credit
card, but for overseas orders they wait until they have cashed the money
before shipping the product !

I then started to learn about FreeBSD with the Handbook and installing the
operating system several times.

The first time, it didn't work, because I had disabled the sysconsole driver
(nobody had told me it was required, and there was no device called
"sysconsole" on my PC's hardware list :-)).

The second time, I got the system up and running, so I continued with the
Handbook's chapter 3 and read about the info files, which I didn't have
online because I had choosen a "normal user" setup. At that time, I had no
idea about how I could add the info files, so to me the only workaround was
to start over installing FreeBSD and choose "everything".

You see, some things may seem obvious to advanced users, but not to newbies
...

As I unfortunately can't spend much time on FreeBSD and the Handbook seems
to be work in progress, I print it out in small parts in order to have
always the latest update. This leads to my first question about the
Handbook: how can I know that some previous part I already studied has been
updated, so that I can print it out again and keep my hardcopy of the
Handbook up to date? Will I see a message about it in the announce mailing
list?

Now I felt a little bit sad to see the 2.2.6 version I just bought is
already an old version, because 2.2.7 has been released. How to keep up with
something that evolves so fast? A new version gets released long before I
could study the previous one! I know I could just go on with 2.2.6, but then
comes my second question: what about the Handbook on the website? For how
long will it cover the 2.2.6 version I have, instead of the newer 2.2.7?

Greetings,

jozef.baum@advalvas.be

P.S. - Yes, I know, I composed and sent this message with Microsoft's
Internet Explorer, but I feel it will take some more time before I get my
FreeBSD system connected to the Internet.


To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
  Very good, I thought I was the only one who went through all that when I first got my first 2-CD version of 2.2.2. But to say the truth,  don't bother, since as you have said, you are a newbie, and your main concern is to "upgrade" from newbie to not-newbie. Even in the Handbook you will find references to very old releases (like 2.1.x) so stick to the main ideas of the handbook and faqs, and always keep coming over the list and asking questions (in "questions@freebsd.org, of course!!).

Greetings

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QAcaFmboqGQa8EFM3mRLvuQSKIFZJmVTTmVyPmVrPmd0TudsCuYaCIIaCOaYyIH3yYEa0GNr 5qYtDAo+aYd+TAVnpYVaKITMZQeZpFt1dg55lueDHmVWXmiHfmiIlg5RSoz1SFmLhj5oHBjI M+jOoIiCJYiHQLwHUKCFP6CMvdgoFIpolX6Oi15pl35pdObBie6bUXZlsLJmHMgBUjKDMSix LOiC7VkAUPiEWuADPpgeCp0JmF5qpm5qp6ba9UADO0CDis4Kio7qe7LmIJDQcpSNLDADObCE YzAGWkAFGNCA7GstHsABiL7qqk44iiYDNFitp65ru77rhIZnuKYkmhbmUWot9IiCFMDKVwgA CUMFC1CBjZyeGgDnh3brvt7rq75ryq7slcYczLazSV0LyNZAYXZXINCBHcBUd1g8azDsf9I5 NGCDEpuetnZrn7BqyLZs2l7ogAAAOw== --------------C15918712314CA98135618DA-- --------------D74C86818E455FA870EFA3FC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 11:00:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28592 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from support.centercomp.com (root@[206.129.174.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28561 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@clean.net) Received: from ns1.clean.net (corv-17.e-z.net [206.129.174.67]) by support.centercomp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA08310 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723105943.007d2940@clean.net> X-Sender: eric@clean.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:59:43 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: Eric Hake Subject: Re: Upgrading In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722171241.0081b330@mx.serv.net> References: <19980723062353.48912@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722042047.0081abb0@mx.serv.net> <19980723032132.08184@welearn.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980722130055.0081c410@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>Personally I don't see any need to upgrade if 2.2.6 is working fine as >>it is. I tend to be one of those people who sit back and wait for the >>screams of pain to die down before deciding if there is any real >>incentive to upgrade, and 2.2.6 is pretty solid. I might keep upgrading >>a few individual packages, but that's no sweat. I bought the subscription with 2.2.5, and then 2.2.6 came out, so I put a hold on my subscription until 3.0 comes out... I'll get the CDs for that, and try it out on a clean machine, but I agree about waiting for the "screams of pain to die down" comment... I'll probably wait a bit before launching it on production machines... Eric (and his 2 bits) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 12:35:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16126 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16037; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup543.serv.net [207.207.70.108]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15944; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723123442.00816470@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:42 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: My verdict on 2.2.7... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, finally got done installing 2.2.7, and unfortunately, *MY* verdict is in (although admittedly I'm not "the judge"): Don't bother. (1) The new sysinstall is so buggy, you'd better keep a can of RAID by your computer when using it (I'll explain as I go along here)... (2) The new update of X-windows is either really buggy, or it was the sysinstall utility that screwed it up (or a combination of both). Parts of the PC98 server libraries got mixed in with the regular Xfree86 libraries. Not all the new X binaries work properly, either. (3) Package dependencies are all screwed up (half of what I tried said "Can't find libxx.xx.x), even after installing the dependencies given by pkg_add -v. Also, **some packages that exist on the site aren't listed in the sysinstall package installer** (yes, I DID download the new INDEX file), including my favorite Email reader, xfmail (I had to install it manually via pkg_add, and grab an older version of XForms from the 2.2.6 installation). (4) Certain problems exist with PPP. For one, I noticed that it was slower than a snail at certain times. Also, when called by sysinstall in getting the network up, an error message appeared saying something like "Warning: Config: dns: no such key word. Warning: enable: Failed 1." I'll leave someone else to figure this out. (5) When installing X, if you only select certain parts of it, it doesn't get installed at all. The only way to install it in sysinstall is to select ALL of it, then go back and deselect what you DON'T want. This is an obvious bug. Even after doing this, the wrong files were installed (I got a mix of PC98 and regular server stuff that just didn't work together correctly. I had to extensively edit XF86Config by hand. I had no problems like these whatsoever when installing 2.2.6. In my opinion, 2.2.7 is not production quality, and I think this verdict will be slowly arriving from more people than just me (they may even yank this version - the sysinstall is just impossibly buggy). They've basically crossed v2.2.6 with v3.0 here, and the two just don't seem to mix properly :-(. I'm going back to 2.2.6 until 3.0 is out (OF COURSE I deleted all of 2.2.6, so it's time to start downloading again............................................................) Anyone with similar experiences to mine with v2.2.7 is invited to Email me at fewtch@serv.net. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 14:48:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10301 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:48:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10292; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:48:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id OAA08060; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807232147.OAA08060@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: fewtch@serv.net CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.19980723123442.00816470@mx.serv.net> (message from Tim Gerchmez on Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:42 -0700) Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * From: Tim Gerchmez * (3) Package dependencies are all screwed up (half of what I tried said * "Can't find libxx.xx.x), even after installing the dependencies given by * pkg_add -v. You need to be more specific than "half". :) * Also, **some packages that exist on the site aren't listed in * the sysinstall package installer** (yes, I DID download the new INDEX * file), including my favorite Email reader, xfmail (I had to install it * manually via pkg_add, and grab an older version of XForms from the 2.2.6 * installation). I'm not sure how this can happen. I just checked, the xfmail binary requires xforms.0, and the xforms package includes libxforms.so.0.88. === >> ldd xfmail xfmail: /usr/libexec/ld.so: warning: /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6.0: minor version 0 older than expected 3, using it anyway -lxforms.0 => not found (0x0) -lXpm.4 => not found (0x0) -lSM.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6.0 (0x200cf000) -lICE.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6.0 (0x200d7000) -lX11.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 (0x200e9000) -lm.2 => /usr/lib/libm.so.2.0 (0x2017f000) -lc.3 => /usr/lib/libc.so.3.1 (0x20199000) >> tar tvzf ../../packages/All/xforms-0.88.1.tgz | grep xforms.so -rw-r--r-- root/wheel 545767 Jun 28 07:51 1998 lib/libxforms.so.0.88 lrwxrwxrwx root/wheel 0 Jun 28 07:51 1998 lib/libxforms.so -> /usr/X11R6/lib/libxforms.so.0.88 === Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 15:48:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19998 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk (root@irwell.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.47.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19991 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:48:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drmarsh@bigfoot.com) Received: from trek.squelch.localnet (man-181.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.40.230]) by irwell.zetnet.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05397 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:47:24 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199807180230.MAA15868@phoenix.welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:00:08 +0100 (BST) Organization: David_Marsh@HOME: see signature for information. From: David Marsh To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: > > FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of > the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. > Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding > and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help > elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general > chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral I'm fairly new to this list [1] (and not /quite/ so new to FreeBSD, although still a newbie 'administrator'), and I'm still not exactly sure what it's for. [1] In fact, I didn't know it existed until the other day, as it's not mentioned in the 2.2.5-era local webdocs that I installed on the CD I borrowed from a friend, perhaps an example of the 'change' in newbyness: old-skool newbies were probably learning how to administrate a permanently connected academic or research box, new-skool newbies are, I suspect, more likely to be getting going at home, and with most of the world unable to afford to dialup and slurp the latest sources, we might not always have the latest and greatest versions (or docs). It seems to me a little as if people can ask anything here, as long as they don't ask a `question'..? ;-) > (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD > community. We take our problems and support questions to > freebsd-questions, I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions to FreeBSD-questions. There is an obvious difference between the level of questioning there which ranges from "Hey, how can I install this FreeBSD thing under WhineDOS 95" (which I reckon, probably should go here, for the questioner to be informed that 1: it's an OS in itself, and 2: yes, there's this great big website you can look at..), to 'newbie-ish' things like "How *do* I install xx? How do I set up yy..?" to questions from more seasoned users such as "How do I do this really spiffy multilink ppp thing?" or "How do I do this other very technical sounding thing that David Marsh hasn't even heard of yet..?" This list seems fairly quiet, almost empty compared to -questions, so I'm simply wondering why the 'simpler' questions couldn't be dealt with here, on -newbies, which would hopefully allow the real experts on -questions to get on with more important topics, than having to recite FAQ references over again.. :-( > One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to > find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: This sounds like a good idea, but a little hard to quite get to grips with.. Does this mean that questions along the lines of: Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' (and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? or Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. .would be acceptable topics for discussion here? [Incidentally, these are both real queries of mine ;-)] > You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a > question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to Is this following example of 'meta-questioning' acceptable here? FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly subscribed to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From my previous internet experience, I know that it's generally considered rude to fire questions at a list you don't subscribe to. So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. (It would make things a little easier for me not to have to read/junk every topic on the -questions list, but there's the old chestnut that the question might just have been answered previously. (How many times was "Hey? I get this lib.des.blah error in 2.2.6..?" asked recently.. :-( )) And, to continue, the wise ones duly respond to such questions as the above with "Check the website" or "Check the mailing list archive".. Now, as you point out elsewhere, a large number of newbies (myself included) access the internet intermittently over non-fixed dialup links, usually paying for the holidays of telco executives quite handsomely in the process.. [Note for USAns: that means we have to pay for the phone calls ;-(] While taking a brief check of the website for news or errata is probably OK, doing an online search of mail-archves soon mounts up the phone bill, which, IMO, means it would be better for people to be subscribed to a list and following the threads. Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more 'low level' questions here? But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm treading on somebody's toes.. > If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a > brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, > always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when > you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right > direction. oops, I guess this maybe answers my questions above.. But I don't understand why "Where can I find documentation that I can read so that I can use xxxx?" should be a -questions question, although the more blunt "How do I use xxxx?" obviously would be..? Isn't part of the newbie experience all about "Help! There's these big horrible man pages: they don't make sense" or worse "Help! There *isn't* a man page for this program" or "I've really really tried to read the whole 300K man page, and it still doesn't make sense"? I would have thought that the usually fairly simple answers to these questions could be dealt with on -newbies. After all, the questions are about how to make sense of existing documentation or finding other sources, not committing the sin of asking the direct "How do I *do* this?" >Other resources > > A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html > to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant > information Oh, that's news to me, too. It looks like the website has maybe undergone quite a few changes since 2.2.5. Now, if only I could find out how to get webcopy to work so that I could download new sections and read them offline... If a lot of these developments (the newbies page and the newbies list itself) are only just starting to get off the ground, maybe it will take some time for this information to filter around so that the really clueless newbies (the "How much space on my C: drive will FreeBSD take?" ones) might start looking here for advice in the first place..? > quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and >links > to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If >you > have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to > freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. Right, this sounds good, but it really is the first I've heard of it. > One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting >questions, > believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, > not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. I'll maybe bring this up on -questions if people feel it has merit, but wouldn't it possibly be a good idea to split questions into (say) q-internet, q-apps, q-config, q-install, q-web, q-programming, etc, with each group focussing on a specific area of FreeBSD usage..? This would make it easier for users and experts to only keep track of lists that they're interested in specifically. > So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to >freebsd-questions > as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. I do feel that the current list charter is slightly too restrictive, and also a bit abstract and vague such that it probably dissuades people from posting as it's not really clear what can be discussed here. What does anybody else think, and does anybody have any answers to any of my meta-questions (at least those that are deemed within the remit of the list ;-)? Dave. --- David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| > CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < > includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 16:10:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22984 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:10:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.bendnet.com (mail.bendnet.com [199.2.205.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22966 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from samantha@thatonegirl.com) Received: from davenport (samantha@b190.bendnet.com [206.163.37.200]) by mail.bendnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24844; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:14:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from samantha@thatonegirl.com) Message-ID: <001601bdb68f$083f8100$c825a3ce@davenport.bendnet.com> From: "Samantha Stack" To: "David Marsh" , Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:10:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi :) Just wanted to say I think the EFnet channel #freebsd is a lot of help and also a lot of fun :) Sam -----Original Message----- From: David Marsh To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 4:09 PM Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK > >On 18-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: >> >> FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of >> the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. >> Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding >> and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help >> elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general >> chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral > >I'm fairly new to this list [1] (and not /quite/ so new to FreeBSD, >although still a newbie 'administrator'), and I'm still not exactly >sure what it's for. > >[1] In fact, I didn't know it existed until the other day, as it's not >mentioned in the 2.2.5-era local webdocs that I installed on the CD I >borrowed from a friend, perhaps an example of the 'change' in newbyness: >old-skool newbies were probably learning how to administrate a >permanently connected academic or research box, new-skool newbies are, >I suspect, more likely to be getting going at home, and with most of >the world unable to afford to dialup and slurp the latest sources, we >might not always have the latest and greatest versions (or docs). > > > >It seems to me a little as if people can ask anything here, as long as >they don't ask a `question'..? ;-) > >> (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD >> community. We take our problems and support questions to >> freebsd-questions, > >I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions >to FreeBSD-questions. There is an obvious difference between the level >of questioning there which ranges from "Hey, how can I install this >FreeBSD thing under WhineDOS 95" (which I reckon, probably should go >here, for the questioner to be informed that 1: it's an OS in itself, >and 2: yes, there's this great big website you can look at..), to >'newbie-ish' things like "How *do* I install xx? How do I set up yy..?" >to questions from more seasoned users such as "How do I do this really >spiffy multilink ppp thing?" or "How do I do this other very technical >sounding thing that David Marsh hasn't even heard of yet..?" > >This list seems fairly quiet, almost empty compared to -questions, so >I'm simply wondering why the 'simpler' questions couldn't be dealt >with here, on -newbies, which would hopefully allow the real experts on >-questions to get on with more important topics, than having to recite >FAQ references over again.. :-( > > >> One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to >> find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: > >This sounds like a good idea, but a little hard to quite get to grips >with.. > >Does this mean that questions along the lines of: > > >Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' >(and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? > >or > >Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? >www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. > >.would be acceptable topics for discussion here? > >[Incidentally, these are both real queries of mine ;-)] > > > >> You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a >> question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to > >Is this following example of 'meta-questioning' acceptable here? > >FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly subscribed >to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From my previous >internet experience, I know that it's generally considered rude to fire >questions at a list you don't subscribe to. > >So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? >Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing >questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. > >(It would make things a little easier for me not to have to read/junk >every topic on the -questions list, but there's the old chestnut that >the question might just have been answered previously. >(How many times was "Hey? I get this lib.des.blah error in 2.2.6..?" >asked recently.. :-( )) > > > >And, to continue, the wise ones duly respond to such questions as >the above with "Check the website" or "Check the mailing list archive".. >Now, as you point out elsewhere, a large number of newbies (myself >included) access the internet intermittently over non-fixed dialup >links, usually paying for the holidays of telco executives quite >handsomely in the process.. >[Note for USAns: that means we have to pay for the phone calls ;-(] > >While taking a brief check of the website for news or errata is >probably OK, doing an online search of mail-archves soon mounts up the >phone bill, which, IMO, means it would be better for people to be >subscribed to a list and following the threads. > >Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, >and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest >that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more >'low level' questions here? > >But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm >treading on somebody's toes.. > > >> If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a >> brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, >> always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when >> you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right >> direction. > >oops, I guess this maybe answers my questions above.. > >But I don't understand why "Where can I find documentation that I can >read so that I can use xxxx?" should be a -questions question, although >the more blunt "How do I use xxxx?" obviously would be..? > >Isn't part of the newbie experience all about "Help! There's these big >horrible man pages: they don't make sense" or worse "Help! There >*isn't* a man page for this program" or "I've really really tried to >read the whole 300K man page, and it still doesn't make sense"? > >I would have thought that the usually fairly simple answers to these >questions could be dealt with on -newbies. After all, the questions are >about how to make sense of existing documentation or finding other >sources, not committing the sin of asking the direct "How do I *do* >this?" > > >>Other resources >> >> A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html >> to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant >> information > >Oh, that's news to me, too. It looks like the website has maybe >undergone quite a few changes since 2.2.5. Now, if only I could find >out how to get webcopy to work so that I could download new sections >and read them offline... > >If a lot of these developments (the newbies page and the newbies list >itself) are only just starting to get off the ground, maybe it will >take some time for this information to filter around so that the really >clueless newbies (the "How much space on my C: drive will FreeBSD >take?" ones) might start looking here for advice in the first place..? > > >> quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and >>links >> to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If >>you >> have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to >> freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. > >Right, this sounds good, but it really is the first I've heard of it. > > >> One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting >>questions, >> believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, >> not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the > >I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best >way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up >with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. > >I'll maybe bring this up on -questions if people feel it has merit, but >wouldn't it possibly be a good idea to split questions into (say) >q-internet, q-apps, q-config, q-install, q-web, q-programming, etc, with >each group focussing on a specific area of FreeBSD usage..? This would >make it easier for users and experts to only keep track of lists that >they're interested in specifically. > > >> So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to >>freebsd-questions >> as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies > >There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. > >I do feel that the current list charter is slightly too restrictive, >and also a bit abstract and vague such that it probably dissuades >people from posting as it's not really clear what can be discussed here. > > >What does anybody else think, and does anybody have any answers to any >of my meta-questions (at least those that are deemed within the remit >of the list ;-)? > > >Dave. > > >--- >David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | >Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| >> CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < >> includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 16:35:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26037 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26026 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:35:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA15420; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:38:30 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: David Marsh cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, David Marsh wrote: > FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly subscribed > to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From my previous > internet experience, I know that it's generally considered rude to fire > questions at a list you don't subscribe to. I think that this is different in the case of -questions. It's just like any other tech support list at a company (which the users wouldn't be *able* to subscribe to). You send questions to the generic support address, whoever knows the answer first replies to you and cc's the list so that the others will know that the question has been answered. That's how all of the support lists I am on work.... Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 16:54:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28493 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:54:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28407; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from Default (dialup730.serv.net [207.207.65.94]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25240; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723165327.0081d240@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:53:27 -0700 To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807232147.OAA08060@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19980723123442.00816470@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:47 PM 7/23/98 -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > * (3) Package dependencies are all screwed up (half of what I tried said > * "Can't find libxx.xx.x), even after installing the dependencies given by > * pkg_add -v. > >You need to be more specific than "half". :) Not in my opinion. I feel a -RELEASE should be rock solid. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this way, and should start thinking of FreeBSD like I do Windows 95 or NT, that a minor upgrade is going to be ridden with bugs. Let others who still care enough be more specific. I'm too disappointed right now, and even starting to consider Linux, now that I know FreeBSD isn't the rock-solid system they claim it is. This was the most carelessly released version of an OS I've ever seen in my life. As bad as the worst I've ever seen from Microsoft (something like Windows 3.0 was). >I'm not sure how this can happen. I just checked, the xfmail binary >requires xforms.0, and the xforms package includes libxforms.so.0.88. The xfmail package wasn't even listed in the package list of the 2.2.7 version of sysinstall. They didn't even get the package INDEX file right. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 17:03:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29917 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:03:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29894; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA11705; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807240002.RAA11705@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: fewtch@serv.net CC: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.19980723165327.0081d240@mx.serv.net> (message from Tim Gerchmez on Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:53:27 -0700) Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * >I'm not sure how this can happen. I just checked, the xfmail binary * >requires xforms.0, and the xforms package includes libxforms.so.0.88. * * The xfmail package wasn't even listed in the package list of the 2.2.7 * version of sysinstall. They didn't even get the package INDEX file right. Sorry, I wasn't commenting on the INDEX problem. But from what I can tell from looking at the files on ftp.freebsd.org, once you get the package, the dependency (shared library) should work. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 17:06:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00493 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:06:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00468 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07059; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:53:44 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980724005343.42939@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:53:43 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: David Marsh , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK References: <199807180230.MAA15868@phoenix.welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from David Marsh on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions > to FreeBSD-questions. In a nutshell; 1. It means that people that want to ask questions only have one list to post to, they don't need to cross-post to both lists. 2. People that want to answer questions only have to read one list. 3. The nature of the audience on -questions hopefully ensures that the information you receive is more accurate. One of my reasons for being on this list is to correct mis-information if it's posted. Typically, I do this by mailing the person that posted the mis-information, explaining why it's wrong, and then let them followup back to the list with the right information. > Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' > (and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? IMHO, that's borderline. Doubtless other people will disagree. Something like "So, what did you guys use when you were learning 'vi'?" is more on the mark. > Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? > www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. Nothing to do with being new to FreeBSD, so off topic for this list. Again, IMHO. > FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly subscribed > to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From my previous > internet experience, I know that it's generally considered rude to fire > questions at a list you don't subscribe to. > > So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? > Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing > questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. -questions is a bit different in this case. Apart from anything else, I believe most of the question answerers include a cc: back to the original questioner when they reply. It's just the done thing. > (It would make things a little easier for me not to have to read/junk > every topic on the -questions list, but there's the old chestnut that > the question might just have been answered previously. I throw away perhaps 70% of -questions unread, based on the subject lines. I skim the remaining 30%, looking for stuff that I might need to know one day, or answering those questions that I can. I'm subscribed to almost all the FreeBSD mailing lists. Takes me about an hour and a half each day, most of which is spent deleting messages. > (How many times was "Hey? I get this lib.des.blah error in 2.2.6..?" > asked recently.. :-( )) Dunno. But that's what the list archives are for. > But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm > treading on somebody's toes.. It's been gone over before, I believe the current way it works is the best of the possible options. In particular, point 1 of my list above (people not knowing which list to post their question to, and so cross-posting it to both) could quite rapidly destroy this list. Again, IMHO. > > quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and > >links > > to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If > >you > > have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to > > freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. > > Right, this sounds good, but it really is the first I've heard of it. -newbies hasn't been going too long, since the end of March by my reckoning. > > One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting > >questions, > > believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, > > not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the > > I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best > way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up > with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. Possibly not. There are subsets of -questions for some topics. For example, the -scsi and -multimedia lists. If you were to post a question to -questions along the line of "Which video card should I get to do OpenGL" (or something like that) you'd probably be redirected to the -multimedia mailing list. There's probably room for some more mailing lists along these lines, possible a -ppp or -network for networking related problems, and so on. If you want to start a discussion about this in -questions, feel free. > There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. My local copy of this list shows 2,441 messages since I subscribed, which is roughly 20 a day. There was quite a vocal discussion about various topics recently. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 17:06:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00533 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00509; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08071; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:01:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19980724010157.44029@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:01:57 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Tim Gerchmez , purebeef@shaw.wave.ca, newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: using 1 machine (a FreeBSD one) to connect 2 pcs to the net via References: <3.0.5.32.19980722174539.00837850@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722174539.00837850@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:45:39PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim, On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 05:45:39PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Grrrrr.... anyone who EVER sends a series of attachments to me again via a > mailing list Those attachments were the config files he mentioned in the post. Instead of copying the text into the message he added it as an attachment. So what? For people who are interested in looking at his problem that can actually be easier than if three or four config files have been pasted into one long e-mail. > without my permission is going to get mailbombed with 10,000 > ads for Sam's Spam Sandwiches... No they aren't. Because that will get you (and anyone else who decides to do something that silly) kicked off these lists and will probably generate many complaints to your upstream provider. Could we all try and think a bit before threatening people with mailbombing? It's not smart, it's not clever, and it will get people's accounts pulled. Cheers, N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 17:34:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03805 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:34:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03791 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA07226; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:33:54 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980724103351.13100@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:33:51 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: David Marsh Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK References: <199807180230.MAA15868@phoenix.welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from David Marsh on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > On 18-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: > > > > FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of > > the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. > > Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding > > and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help > > elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general > > chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral > > I'm fairly new to this list [1] (and not /quite/ so new to FreeBSD, > although still a newbie 'administrator'), and I'm still not exactly > sure what it's for. > > [1] In fact, I didn't know it existed until the other day, as it's not > mentioned in the 2.2.5-era local webdocs that I installed on the CD I > borrowed from a friend, perhaps an example of the 'change' in newbyness: > old-skool newbies were probably learning how to administrate a > permanently connected academic or research box, new-skool newbies are, > I suspect, more likely to be getting going at home, and with most of > the world unable to afford to dialup and slurp the latest sources, we > might not always have the latest and greatest versions (or docs). That's at least partly the case, yes. The freebsd-newbies list only started late March this year. During that time we have discussed the role of this list and that of freebsd-questions ad nauseum. > I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions > to FreeBSD-questions. Many many reasons. Let's not start another enormous thread on this! There is no list specifically for newbie support or easy questions. Freebsd-questions is for all technical/support/help/how-to questions and answers, at any level. Anything that could be asked or answered on freebsd-questions is off topic for -newbies. One day there might be a special place to ask newbie technical questions. If that happens, it will not be this mailing list, it will be another one. If you want to know all the nitty-gritty details, either search the archives for hundreds of previous emails, or contact me privately if you wish. > This list seems fairly quiet, almost empty compared to -questions, so > I'm simply wondering why the 'simpler' questions couldn't be dealt > with here, on -newbies, which would hopefully allow the real experts on > -questions to get on with more important topics, than having to recite > FAQ references over again.. :-( If you don't like the way you are dealt with in freebsd-questions, then we need to deal with that. You can discuss that here. > Does this mean that questions along the lines of: > > Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' > (and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? Yes! > Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? > www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. > > .would be acceptable topics for discussion here? Yes! > > You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a > > question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to > > Is this following example of 'meta-questioning' acceptable here? I'm not quite sure what you mean. > FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly subscribed > to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From my previous > internet experience, I know that it's generally considered rude to fire > questions at a list you don't subscribe to. > > So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? > Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing > questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. On *all* freebsd lists it is considered rude (by many) to neglect to cc both the list and the person you're responding to. I subscribe to 50-60 mailing lists from a variety of sources. Each has their own little conventions, and in this particular respect the freebsd lists are different to most, yes. > And, to continue, the wise ones duly respond to such questions as > the above with "Check the website" or "Check the mailing list archive".. > Now, as you point out elsewhere, a large number of newbies (myself > included) access the internet intermittently over non-fixed dialup > links, usually paying for the holidays of telco executives quite > handsomely in the process.. > [Note for USAns: that means we have to pay for the phone calls ;-(] I know. I'm in Australia :-) What we have to realise though, is that freebsd-questions is inhabited by hundreds of the kind of people who get three-digit sums per hour, and they are happy to spend time to help us there for free, for as long as they enjoy doing so. They have to pay to get our questions too. This doesn't make it OK for you and me, of course, but it can help a bit to see it from their point of view. > While taking a brief check of the website for news or errata is > probably OK, doing an online search of mail-archves soon mounts up the > phone bill, which, IMO, means it would be better for people to be > subscribed to a list and following the threads. Whatever suits you best. You'll end up needing to search the archives at sime time. If you don't want to do either, on the web site you'll find a list of people who offer help for a fee, or you can work everything out yourself from the man pages and source code :-) Those options are far too expensive and/or slow for me, and probably for most of us. > Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, > and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest > that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more > 'low level' questions here? Sorry, that will not be possible. However, as I have said before, if you do wish to see a *separate* list for support/technical/how-to questions specifically for newbies, all you need to do is figure out how to make it work. That's the hard part. Who would be experienced enough to provide reliable answers, who would check that their answers were correct, who would take their place if they moved their free help out of -questions, and, the tricky one, why on earth would they want to be bothered, what enticements do you have to offer volunteers? If this does ever happen, it will need to be very thoroughly planned beforehand. > But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm > treading on somebody's toes.. No toes, just... yaaaawwwwn... :-) > But I don't understand why "Where can I find documentation that I can > read so that I can use xxxx?" should be a -questions question, although > the more blunt "How do I use xxxx?" obviously would be..? One of the (many) purposes of this list is to provide help for people with using the mailing lists. Email-related questions, and questions about the best way to ask questions, are asked and answered here. FreeBSD-newbies keeps those sorts of things out of -questions, where it's OK to be ignorant. People here will gently help you get your email in shape so that the people in -questions won't rag you about it :-) And if there's documentation, most of us would much rather use that than go ask a question. By pointing each other to documentation we save each other discomfort and help each other to be not so dependent on -questions. > Isn't part of the newbie experience all about "Help! There's these big > horrible man pages: they don't make sense" or worse "Help! There > *isn't* a man page for this program" or "I've really really tried to > read the whole 300K man page, and it still doesn't make sense"? In that case, if you're trying to set something up or solve a problem it goes to -questions. But if it's a direct comment on documentation that would help those writing the docs, it goes to freebsd-doc. Another thing we do here is advise which list to use for a particular question or comment. Once again, by doing this here we reduce the volume and improve the mood on -questions. > > A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html > > to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant > > information > > Oh, that's news to me, too. It's only been there for a couple of months :-) > Now, if only I could find out how to get webcopy to work so that I > could download new sections and read them offline... OK, someone here might suggest what you could use to do this, point you to it and its documentation, and if you got stuck you could write to -questions. But you'd probably get better advice on what to use if you asked -questions in the first place. > If a lot of these developments (the newbies page and the newbies list > itself) are only just starting to get off the ground, maybe it will > take some time for this information to filter around so that the really > clueless newbies (the "How much space on my C: drive will FreeBSD > take?" ones) might start looking here for advice in the first place..? No, if they start looking here for technical advice, or offering it here, they'll be gently advised that they are acting against the published list charter. That kind of question can be and therefore is answered in freebsd-questions. > > believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, > > not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the > > I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best > way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up > with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. OK, that's a separate issue. It's a gripe. It's a gripe likely to be a particularly nasty gripe for newbies. We can let off steam a bit here because it's chatty, so long as we don't fire steam at each other. (We need at least one place where "all is forgiven" :-) Usually after being free to whinge a bit we end up calming down and working out real solutions! > There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. No, we haven't heard much from you at all yet :-) Tell us what you're up to with FreeBSD. > I do feel that the current list charter is slightly too restrictive, > and also a bit abstract and vague such that it probably dissuades > people from posting as it's not really clear what can be discussed here. If you believe, as some do, that newbies are defined by their help-seeking behaviour, then you will be totally dissatisfied with this list. If you believe that newbies can and do do a lot more than seek help, even contribute to the FreeBSD Project in many ways, then you might find this a nice little low volume low signal high noise list that's kinda nice to hang around :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 19:44:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22635 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1552.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22619; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:44:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25233; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:44:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980723224411.B22266@zappo> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:44:11 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... References: <3.0.5.32.19980723123442.00816470@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980723123442.00816470@mx.serv.net>; from Tim Gerchmez on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 12:34:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 12:34:42PM -0700, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > (2) The new update of X-windows is either really buggy, or it was the > sysinstall utility that screwed it up (or a combination of both). Parts of > the PC98 server libraries got mixed in with the regular Xfree86 libraries. > Not all the new X binaries work properly, either. [And about 3 other complaints about sysinstall and the X installation] Maybe this is what was causing your problems... >From owner-cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 23 21:35:21 1998 [...] From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" [...] Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807231921.MAA12397@freefall.freebsd.org> To: cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-release@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: cvs commit: src/release/sysinstall config.c dist.c dist.h Sender: owner-cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG [...] jkh 1998/07/23 12:21:43 PDT Modified files: (Branch: RELENG_2_2) release/sysinstall config.c dist.c dist.h Log: 11th hour fixes to XF86Setup handling and the XF86 dist bit. Gack. I'll slide the tags forward on these files and update the boot floppy for 2.2.7. Nothing catastrophic, but irritating enough to fix floppies over. Revision Changes Path 1.51.2.64 +3 -3 src/release/sysinstall/config.c 1.73.2.48 +11 -9 src/release/sysinstall/dist.c 1.16.2.12 +1 -1 src/release/sysinstall/dist.h -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 20:29:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29703 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:29:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29683 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from Default (dialup730.serv.net [207.207.65.94]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15143; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723202812.00825180@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:28:12 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: using 1 machine (a FreeBSD one) to connect 2 pcs to the net via Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980724110748.R716@freebie.lemis.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980722174539.00837850@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980722174539.00837850@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The threat to mailbomb was rather tongue-in-cheek (I thought the "Sam's spam sandwich" thing would make that fairly clear but I guess not). However, it IRRITATES me to receive 3 to 5 Email attachments from someone I don't know (it wasn't the message, it was the barrage of attachments). That person could have done one of two other things: (1) Included them as part of the main Email (2) Asked the question first, and sent the attachments to the person who chose to answer the question (#2 would have been the best idea, I think). I just don't like a bunch of attachments in my \download directory without my permission, for all sorts of reasons. Potential trojan horses and viruses are one (I don't audit my \download directory that regularly and don't want a bunch of unknown junk there). Also, consider this - if he had chosen to include three or four 1.5 meg binary kernels instead for someone to debug for him, would you have looked at it slightly differently? Sorry.. irritation is irritation. Emails don't irritate me - a bunch of attachments from some I don't know do. I didn't really mean it about the mailbombing thing. At 11:07 AM 7/24/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Grrrrrrrrrrrr...... > >Tim, we asked you to behave yourself before. You said you would. >This message isn't really in keeping with your promise. Please don't >start flaming again. If you don't like the messages you get on a >mailing list, either put up with it or unsubscribe from the mailing >list. > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Jul 23 22:31:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19567 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:31:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [206.173.118.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19559 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@marconi.concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely [206.173.118.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id BAA24441; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:30:36 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] From: Received: from default (ts001d09.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.21]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id BAA04135; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807240530.BAA04135@mcfeely.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:35:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Unsubscribe X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org unsubscribe freebsd-newbies mlduke@concentric.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 03:55:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12942 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 03:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12907; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 03:55:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id MAA10035; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:54:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:54:51 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami), freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... References: <3.0.5.32.19980723123442.00816470@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980723165327.0081d240@mx.serv.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 24 Jul 1998 12:54:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: Tim Gerchmez's message of "Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:53:27 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id DAA12911 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez writes: > At 02:47 PM 7/23/98 -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > > Tim Gerchmez writes: > > > (3) Package dependencies are all screwed up (half of what I tried said > > > "Can't find libxx.xx.x), even after installing the dependencies given by > > > pkg_add -v. > > > > You need to be more specific than "half". :) > > Not in my opinion. I feel a -RELEASE should be rock solid. Maybe I'm > wrong in thinking this way, and should start thinking of FreeBSD like I do > Windows 95 or NT, that a minor upgrade is going to be ridden with bugs. > Let others who still care enough be more specific. I'm too disappointed > right now, and even starting to consider Linux, now that I know FreeBSD > isn't the rock-solid system they claim it is. This was the most carelessly > released version of an OS I've ever seen in my life. As bad as the worst > I've ever seen from Microsoft (something like Windows 3.0 was). This is groundless mudslinging. You are making claims which you refuse to document; the only way I can interpret that is that you cannot document them, because they are untrue. If you are unable to provide us with constructive criticism - or even a detailed list of packages or features which do not work - then I'm not sure anybody here will be sorry to see you switch to Linux. Now unless you have some real points to make, let us get back to making FreeBSD even better than it already is. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 05:41:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29199 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29171; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from Default (dialup411.serv.net [207.207.70.12]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA16763; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980724054003.0081ea80@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:40:03 -0700 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... Cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami), freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980723123442.00816470@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980723165327.0081d240@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:54 PM 7/24/98 +0200, you wrote: >This is groundless mudslinging. You are making claims which you refuse >to document; the only way I can interpret that is that you cannot >document them, because they are untrue. If that were so, why would I take the time to report them in the first place, just to be some kind of silly liar for the fun of it? And why would I take 20+ hours to download 2.2.7 at 26.4k over the Net, just so I could find a reason to tell lies about it? I refuse to document them because I didn't write down specifics at the time (my mistake), and no longer have 2.2.7 in my possession to test them again and write down the details. Also, being simply a casual hobbyist and not a FreeBSD developer or member of the core team, I don't see that it's MY JOB to document these kinds of problems, simply to mention them. Let those who have committed themselves to working on FreeBSD research the problem. I get nothing whatsoever out of all this, including the posting you interpret as a "pack of lies." >If you are unable to provide us with constructive criticism - or even >a detailed list of packages or features which do not work - then I'm >not sure anybody here will be sorry to see you switch to Linux. I'm not willing to go through another 20 hour download, no. If that means I should switch to Linux, well... perhaps I will. It has certainly been in my thoughts as of late. -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 05:46:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA00380 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:46:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA00352; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:46:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from ringhorni.ifi.uio.no (2602@ringhorni.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.75]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id OAA18737; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:46:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by ringhorni.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:46:03 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Gerchmez Cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami), freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... References: <3.0.5.32.19980723123442.00816470@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980723165327.0081d240@mx.serv.net> <3.0.5.32.19980724054003.0081ea80@mx.serv.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 24 Jul 1998 14:46:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: Tim Gerchmez's message of "Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:40:03 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA00358 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez writes: > I refuse to document them because I didn't write down specifics at the time > (my mistake), and no longer have 2.2.7 in my possession to test them again > and write down the details. Also, being simply a casual hobbyist and not a > FreeBSD developer or member of the core team, I don't see that it's MY JOB > to document these kinds of problems, simply to mention them. Let those who If you want us to do something about it, you'll have to tell us what's wrong. Until you do, there's nothing we can do to help. So yes, it is your job. > have committed themselves to working on FreeBSD research the problem. I > get nothing whatsoever out of all this, including the posting you interpret > as a "pack of lies." Your words, not mine. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 06:39:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07412 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:39:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA07395; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hartong@erols.com) Received: from mhartong (207-172-41-214.s214.tnt10.brd.erols.com [207.172.41.214]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA25388; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:38:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Hartong" To: "Tim Gerchmez" Cc: , Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:34:44 -0400 Message-ID: <01bdb707$d1db34a0$d629accf@mhartong.man.fs.lmco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim, If you have EVER done ANY software development and testing ( which by your comments I sincerely doubt), you would know that it is impossible to do comprehensive testing to eliminate ALL bugs. A developer simply does not have the ability to divine EVERY possible set of actions that a user will take, nor do they have EVERY possible configuration of equipment that a user will utilize. Developers rely on users to provide detailed feedback on what doesn't work so they can recreate the problem and how to figure out how to fix it. Simply whining about a problem without being willing to document it is nothing more than a total abdication of responsibility as a simple end user, let alone some one who claims to be a "casual hobbiest". If you claim to be a "hobbiest", then researching and documenting problems does give you something- an improved understanding of the O/S and it's functions, improved programming and improved testing skills, and improved communication skills when you convey the detailed nature of the problem to others. If all you can do is whine, especially about something that you got for free, without being part of the solution rather than a hindrance to it, then go else where. I for one, will not be sorry to see you leave- in the past three months all you have done is chew up the bandwidth, insult others with your demands, and give logical reasons to make people who might be able to help others more inaccessible to the all of those who are willing to work with them. Having been in both the Linux and FreeBSD communities, I doubt that your behavior will be tolerated by many people in the Linux community either. Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 06:47:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08737 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dsinw.com (root@dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08721 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@direct-source.com) Received: from direct-source.com.direct-source.com (ppp75.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.75]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA18229; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:30:27 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell To: David Marsh cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@direct-source.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? > Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing > questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. It is, -questions can be sent E-mail from any number of locations on the www.cdrom.com webpage, and www.freebsd.org, in regards to any technical support questions a user may have. It's different then other mailing lists because it's really the 'only' technical support FreeBSD really has. > Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, > and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest > that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more > 'low level' questions here? -newbies was/is meant to be a 'chatter' group for those of us new to FreeBSD. There was Tim whathisname telling us all about his trials and triumphs about installing FreeBSD. There has been some misc chatter over the last few months I've been subscribed. The only problem with changing this list to be a 'low level tech support' is how would it be enforced? How would a person know if their question is a newbie question or a more advanced question? That is why -questions really exists, as a gateway to all the other groups, -hardware, -alpha, etc. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 06:48:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09271 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09229; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:48:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from Default (dialup411.serv.net [207.207.70.12]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA20840; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980724064754.00818e60@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:47:54 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene. Cc: brian@Awfulhak.org, davidg@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all... Well, the last couple days have been "interesting" ones for me. I've gotten the chance to witness first-hand the various methodologies and techniques FreeBSD utilizes in releasing a new version of their OS. I've learned a heck of a lot. Unfortunately, this knowledge will be mostly useless to me, as I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene entirely, effective now. Some of you may be relieved, most probably don't care one way or another, some reading this probably don't know who I am at all. "It's all good," as far as I'm concerned. I'll be maintaining a small 200-meg installation of FreeBSD on my workshop PC, and will be offering 2.2.6 to people as an OS option when I get my PC hardware build business going (sometime in the near future). But my participation in the mailing lists and FreeBSD newsgroups, as well as correspondence with the core team and developers, is over as of now. Best of luck to all of you in the future. Without meaning to be or sound nasty, I think you may need it in the long run. FreeBSD is not following proven modern software testing methodologies in releasing new versions of their OS, and this is hazardous, to say the least (at the very least, it will have the effect of "putting off" newbies trying the OS for the first time, and slow the growth of FreeBSD). Perhaps I have it all wrong, and this is the way it's always been done in the "free software world." I don't care - I don't want any part of it anymore. I'll be dedicating all 4 gigabytes of my main machine to Windows 95 (and soon Win98), giving it plenty of room to "spread out." At least Microsoft has a software testing department. I've enjoyed my participation especially on the FreeBSD-related Usenet newsgroups, and will be sorry to be leaving, but I just couldn't stand to watch all the bumbling and fumbling around as 2.2.7 was "released," and the 20+ hours of time wasted downloading 2.2.7, which I don't trust my data to one iota. My personal opinion is that this release will be unsuccessful anyway; Many people will look on it as a minor bug fix upgrade due to the version numbering scheme (2.2.6 -> 2.2.7) and not bother to download it or purchase a CD-ROM. Anyway, thanks for an "interesting" and at times enjoyable (also at times highly disappointing) learning experience. Perhaps a commercial Unix would be more suited for my purposes (which consist mainly of learning Unix right now), and there's still a slight chance I may give Linux a shot. Best to all, Tim fewtch@serv.net -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 06:54:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10354 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:54:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA10172; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:53:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02526; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:49:52 +0200 (CEST) To: Tim Gerchmez cc: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ), asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami), freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:40:03 PDT." <3.0.5.32.19980724054003.0081ea80@mx.serv.net> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:49:51 +0200 Message-ID: <2524.901288191@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <3.0.5.32.19980724054003.0081ea80@mx.serv.net>, Tim Gerchmez writes: >At 12:54 PM 7/24/98 +0200, you wrote: > >>This is groundless mudslinging. You are making claims which you refuse >>to document; the only way I can interpret that is that you cannot >>document them, because they are untrue. > >If that were so, why would I take the time to report them in the first >place, just to be some kind of silly liar for the fun of it? I suggest that we just let this thread die now. Every body please: delete unread any followups to this thread, and feel free to think "Cretin!" everytime you see each others names, but please don't wast the time of the audience of this forum with this crap any more. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 06:58:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11047 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dsinw.com (root@dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11040 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:58:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@direct-source.com) Received: from direct-source.com.direct-source.com (ppp75.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.75]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA18315 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:41:39 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: More trials with FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@direct-source.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, David's message got me to thinking. This mailing list dosen't have enough traffic! :) So, I'm going to bore you all with my latest round of FreeBSD related fun. It all started innocently enough. I noticed the extremly low price of AMD K6-233 chips, coupled with the low price of 32 meg SDRM, coupled with the fact that my Dual-P5-166 was getting seriously outdated, and the fact that a brand spanking new credit card with an untouched $2500 limit had fallen into my hands. Of course, one thing led to another, and a new processor, motherboard and memory chip all happened to appear in my parts closet. Then I found an extremly good deal on a Quantum 4.5gig SCSI hard drive. Which prompted me to upgrade my Asus SC-200 SCSI card to a brand new Ultra Wide, ASUS SC-875! Two days ago I finally had the time to put all this into my full tower case. Now, I my old Dual-Pentium motherboard had plenty of room for very large PCI cards, namely my video and network cards. The new cards did not exactly fit on the new (much smaller) motherboard. A pity. So I bought a new AGP video card, and a Kingston 40BT Network card. After installing them, I get the bright idea that this machine will still play games pretty dang well so I decide that with 4.5 gigs of hard drive space, Windows 95 would take up a very small part of that. 15 hours later, and nearly $1000 dollars more (I also bought a nice flatbed scanner...) my credit card is smoking, and I've got a very nicely running FreeBSD machine hooked up to my Pentium-90 FreeBSD modem server.... And K6-300's are looking mighty cheap this week... :) Rick PS, Anybody know if GIMP will run a HP4c Scanner? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 08:10:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22798 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:10:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (pme40.sunshine.net [209.17.178.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22775 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:10:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA01580 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:10:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:09:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin G. Eliuk" Reply-To: "Kevin G. Eliuk" To: FreeBSD-Newbies Subject: Re: I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980724064754.00818e60@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:47:54 -0700 I want this moment to last forever :-) Deep breath, holding ... Regards, Kevin G. Eliuk Discover Rock Solid, Discover FreeBSD | http://www.FreeBSD.Org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 09:03:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03552 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03454 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:02:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail.siemens.de (salomon.siemens.de [139.23.33.13]) by david.siemens.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA12893 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:00:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (daemon@curry.mchp.siemens.de [146.180.31.23]) by mail.siemens.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA29154 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:02:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05328 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:02:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Andre Albsmeier Message-Id: <199807241602.SAA14859@internal> Subject: Re: I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980724064754.00818e60@mx.serv.net> from Tim Gerchmez at "Jul 24, 98 06:47:54 am" To: fewtch@serv.net (Tim Gerchmez) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:02:21 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hi all... > > Well, the last couple days have been "interesting" ones for me. I've > gotten the chance to witness first-hand the various methodologies and > techniques FreeBSD utilizes in releasing a new version of their OS. I've > learned a heck of a lot. Unfortunately, this knowledge will be mostly > useless to me, as I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene entirely, effective now. > Some of you may be relieved, most probably don't care one way or another, > some reading this probably don't know who I am at all. "It's all good," as > far as I'm concerned. > > I'll be maintaining a small 200-meg installation of FreeBSD on my workshop > PC, and will be offering 2.2.6 to people as an OS option when I get my PC > hardware build business going (sometime in the near future). But my > participation in the mailing lists and FreeBSD newsgroups, as well as > correspondence with the core team and developers, is over as of now. Best > of luck to all of you in the future. Without meaning to be or sound nasty, > I think you may need it in the long run. FreeBSD is not following proven > modern software testing methodologies in releasing new versions of their > OS, and this is hazardous, to say the least (at the very least, it will > have the effect of "putting off" newbies trying the OS for the first time, > and slow the growth of FreeBSD). Normally I don't comment mails like this but I don't want the newbies go away from FreeBSD because of this mail. On the other hand, if they get away from FreeBSD (like you) because it is just such a bad and instable OS it has to be accepted, of course. > Perhaps I have it all wrong, and this is the way it's always been done in > the "free software world." I don't care - I don't want any part of it Then don't dare to try Linux... > anymore. I'll be dedicating all 4 gigabytes of my main machine to Windows > 95 (and soon Win98), giving it plenty of room to "spread out." At least You will need them. > Microsoft has a software testing department. Maybe they really have one. But I wonder what they are doing there... > > I've enjoyed my participation especially on the FreeBSD-related Usenet > newsgroups, and will be sorry to be leaving, but I just couldn't stand to > watch all the bumbling and fumbling around as 2.2.7 was "released," and > the 20+ hours of time wasted downloading 2.2.7, which I don't trust my data > to one iota. My personal opinion is that this release will be > unsuccessful anyway; Many people will look on it as a minor bug fix upgrade > due to the version numbering scheme (2.2.6 -> 2.2.7) and not bother to > download it or purchase a CD-ROM. > > Anyway, thanks for an "interesting" and at times enjoyable (also at times > highly disappointing) learning experience. Perhaps a commercial Unix would > be more suited for my purposes (which consist mainly of learning Unix right I wish you good luck in finding one. I am no unix expert and I am no real kernel hacker. But I have to deal with a lot (okay, only 5) commercial unixes, their stability, their bugs, their support and the money we pay for all this stuff. Four of them, I would throw away as soon as possible and the last one still doesn't come close to FreeBSD regarding stability, freeness of bugs and support. I don't want to start mentioning the price. Maybe I am just to stupid, missed the thing entirely or just had bad luck with these five operating systems but you can be sure that they are all widely known and used (their names start with S, H and I :-)) > now), and there's still a slight chance I may give Linux a shot. At least you can get the source code easily so it's easier to find the bugs. But it's free also so it just might not be the right thing for you. > > Best to all, > > Tim > fewtch@serv.net > Same to you, -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 09:31:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08976 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from armstrong-bh.armstrong.com (armstrong-bh.armstrong.com [198.76.107.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08957 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Edmund_L_Mulligan@armstrong.com) From: Edmund_L_Mulligan@armstrong.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by armstrong-bh.armstrong.com (8.8.8/8.6.11) id MAA10688 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailex01.armstrong.com(172.16.23.51) by armstrong-bh.armstrong.com via smap (4.1) id xmaa10662; Fri, 24 Jul 98 12:30:26 -0400 Received: by mailex01.Armstrong.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 8525664B.005BC272 ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:42:15 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ARMSTRONG To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <8625664B.0056D8AA.00@mailex01.Armstrong.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:31:15 -0500 Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd really like to see the tech support system, whatever it turns out to be, set up into: * One area with what do I need to install/how to install/what is FreeBSD type questions * One area for support after the system is running, much like 90% of the messages in -questions. Links to each question list would be easy to set up on the WWW sites, a simple "Do you now have FreeBSD running on your computer?" would be enough. I think the comments about the changing face of the average newbie from "new to FreeBSD" to "new to Unix style systems" is very true. However, this is to be expected as the face of the average computer user overall changes. When my dad and I built our first computer from a kit, we were computer newbies as neither of us had used one before. However, we were at a different level than the newbie of today who gets a computer off the shelf at a local store just like a toaster. As much as I hate to admit it 8^) this is a good thing because it makes the "industry" grow and that brings better things for all of us. Here, I'm pretty much one of the new type. I'm trying to use the system for my own hobby use, at home, in my own limited free time. >From what I have seen the instructions available from the main www.freebsd.org site are still directed at the first type of newbie. While it gives simple directions to make the boot disk, etc., if there are any issues about the install you're in trouble. Perhaps I missed it, but is the bit about not disabling the system console because that particular conflicting resource is OK listed anywhere in the install directions? That's the kind of stuff that really stumps the new users. I've heard lots of people say they got bit by that one when they installed. When I tried to figure out what all the different codes represented while doing that initial configuration, the listings in the documentation didn't match the ones actually used on the screen. That made figuring out which resource killed the machine very difficult. As I've hung around here and on -questions for a few months I'm starting to pick up and save tips and links to WWW sites that contain information I need. Things aren't as confusing now, but in the beginning getting up to the level to be able to ask semi-understandable questions was tough. It seems to me that if the progression from never used FreeBSD to FreeBSD expert was a ladder, rungs 2 through 4 would be missing (or possible hidden in the basement of the building next door). You can do it, but it certainly seems designed to dissuade all but the very dedicated. It that is the idea, that's fine. If the goal is to really make the system a competitor to the mainstream systems this needs some work. Or at least one of those Dummy's Guide To FreeBSD books published. 8^) One thing I've seen in industry is having a spec/manual/document (whatever) that is very information intensive that caters to the people who use it every day and are familiar with all the details. Then there is another version of the same document with all kinds of additional definitions, details, examples, history, etc. to bring you up to speed. The National Electrical Code works that way, I've seen electrical specifications work that way, and I like that approach. I am NOT trying to look down on the efforts of the group that created FreeBSD. I think this is absolutely amazing that such a system can exist as free software. I will continue to follow here and -questions. I do intend to keep beating on the system until I learn how it works and get it running. I'm not even upset, I'm smiling as I write this. I'm the kind of person who likes to add the missing rungs, that's all. This is NOT to complain, just to see if other newbies feel the same way. Ed Speaking for me, not for Armstrong To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 10:14:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17452 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:14:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bistro.datasoup.com (root@datasoup.com [207.204.0.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17434 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from don@lloyd.org) Received: from [207.204.0.99] (edible.plasticfruit.com [207.204.0.99]) by bistro.datasoup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01367 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:44:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from don@lloyd.org) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980724064754.00818e60@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:20:11 -0700 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Don Lloyd Jr." Subject: Re: I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene. Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Perhaps I have it all wrong, and this is the way it's always been done in >the "free software world." I don't care - I don't want any part of it >anymore. I'll be dedicating all 4 gigabytes of my main machine to Windows >95 (and soon Win98), giving it plenty of room to "spread out." At least >Microsoft has a software testing department. Heh, I still pity all the people who got Win95 AND 98 the minute it was released, and suffered untold agonies trying to get IT to work. .....and they say that MS has a testing dept..... yup, for Win98, they CHARGED people $$ to beta-test Win98.....that's right, people paid good, god-fearing money to be a MS test dummie. Fwee!!!! I'm still chuckling! Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 10:25:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19384 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:25:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.volant.org (phoenix.volant.org [205.179.79.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19222; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:24:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patl@phoenix.volant.org) From: patl@phoenix.volant.org Received: from asimov.phoenix.volant.org ([205.179.79.65]) by phoenix.volant.org with smtp (Exim 1.92 #8) id 0yzlZc-0004dX-00; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:24:04 -0700 Received: from localhost by asimov.phoenix.volant.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA13492; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:24:01 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: patl@phoenix.volant.org Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980724054003.0081ea80@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 12:54 PM 7/24/98 +0200, you wrote: > > >This is groundless mudslinging. You are making claims which you refuse > >to document; the only way I can interpret that is that you cannot > >document them, because they are untrue. > > If that were so, why would I take the time to report them in the first > place, just to be some kind of silly liar for the fun of it? And why would > I take 20+ hours to download 2.2.7 at 26.4k over the Net, just so I could > find a reason to tell lies about it? I think we have a mis-communication problem here; probably triggered by your rather hostile and inflamitory initial posting, which lead to a some confrontational replies. But you have to realize that nobody else is experiencing the problems of the scope and nature that you report. And since you refuse to provide sufficient details to allow anyone else to even begin to attempt to reproduce them, we are left to assume that they result from some sort of unanticipated pilot error. > I refuse to document them because I didn't write down specifics at the time > (my mistake), and no longer have 2.2.7 in my possession to test them again > and write down the details. Also, being simply a casual hobbyist and not a > FreeBSD developer or member of the core team, I don't see that it's MY JOB > to document these kinds of problems, simply to mention them. Let those who > have committed themselves to working on FreeBSD research the problem. I > get nothing whatsoever out of all this, including the posting you interpret > as a "pack of lies." It is the responsability of -every- user of -any- system to document any problem that they believe the developers should fix. This is true for commercial as well as freely available systems. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you had this type of problem with Solaris, HP-UX, AUX, NT, or any other commercial system, and you responded to it as you have here, you would not have gotten any better response. In fact, after your first refusal to provide details, you probably would have gotten a resounding silence. And it wouldn't have been a nice fast e-mail exchange - it would have been calls to a help line, probably charged to your account. If you had problems with a new car, would you just call the dealer and yell "There's a problem with this junk heap, I'm considering trading it in on a competitor's model" ? No, you'd take the car back in for their mechanics to look at. And you'd describe the symptoms, and under what conditions they occurred. And you'd answer their questions when they tried to clarify the problem report. Since you can't easily ship your failed install 'back to the shop', it is even more important to provide details of the problem and to work with the developers to diagnose it. You say 'Let those who have committed themselves to working on FreeBSD research the problem." Well, the first step in that research is to obtain details from the person who experienced the problem. If you don't provide enough details for anyone else to reproduce the problem, then you can't expect anyone to devote much time to it. Especially not volunteers. (I'm a professional software consultant. If you want me to look into the problem, I'll be glad to. It's $150US/hour. You pay for the time I spend even if I can't find your problem.) > >If you are unable to provide us with constructive criticism - or even > >a detailed list of packages or features which do not work - then I'm > >not sure anybody here will be sorry to see you switch to Linux. > > I'm not willing to go through another 20 hour download, no. If that means > I should switch to Linux, well... perhaps I will. It has certainly been in > my thoughts as of late. So you just threw the former download away? Unless the call was free, downloading probably cost more than the CD would have. And there are a variety of potential errors that can occur with a download. Waiting for the CD would have given you a non-volatile read-only copy that would also include whatever last minute fixes turn up from the final release installation testing. When you download before the CD is out, you are volunteering to be one of the final release installation testers. You certainly can't expect Walnut Creek, or anybody else, to maintain all of the possible different hardware and network configurations necessary to do exhaustive tests. Not to mention the time or people required. (The permutations quickly add up to a mind-boggling total.) They, and the primary developers and users, can cover the main bases; but there will always be fringe configurations, unexpected pilot errors, and even just different personal approaches to the precise installation sequence. I can assure you from personal experience that the same thing happens in the best workstation and software companies. The primary difference is that only employees and selected 'important' customers get to participate in the final tests. But those companies have thousands of employees to provide that test base. FreeBSD has a handfull of volunteer developers, and a large base of knowlegable users that are willing to take the risk by being 'early adopters', downloading intermediate releases, or even keeping in sync with the CVS tree and doing frequent builds. Given your hostile tone, I doubt that many within the FreeBSD community would be sorry to see you switch to Linux. In fact, many would probably chortle to themselves about how eager you seem to throw yourself from the frying pan into the fire. You will not find a free operating system which is more stable or easier to install than FreeBSD. Nor will you find one that gets better or quicker response from the developers when you encounter errors. You won't even find a commercial system with better or faster response from the developers. For some commercial systems, you're lucky if you get a response at all. (Unless you're throwing wads of money at them for a service contract.) But if you insist on approaching every issue in a hostile and confrontational manner, you will quickly gain a network-wide reputation for being a clueless arsehole that should best be ignored. I'm willing to bet that if you switch to Linux and approach your first problem they way you did this one, one of the responses to your complaint will be along the lines of "Wait, I recognize this guy - he made a real dick of himself on the FreeBSD lists and refused to provide any details about a problem that nobody else could reproduce. Ignore him." -Pat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 10:48:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25022 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:48:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24953 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA11663 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:46:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:46:37 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199807241746.KAA11663@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK In-Reply-To: <8625664B.0056D8AA.00@mailex01.Armstrong.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From: Edmund_L_Mulligan@armstrong.com >Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:31:15 -0500 >I think the comments about the changing face of the average newbie from "new to >FreeBSD" to "new to Unix style systems" is very true.... >From what I have seen the instructions available from the main www.freebsd.org >site are still directed at the first type of newbie. While it gives simple >directions to make the boot disk, etc., if there are any issues about the >install you're in trouble..... Actually, my perception is that the instructions seem to be oriented toward folks who have a familiarity with PC hardware (or M$ environments) that, to me, is mind-boggling... and who are new to UNIX-style systems. So I suppose we have differing perceptions, which is an interesting observation, and thus possibly apropos to -newbies. (For the record: I think it's OK to have differing perceptions -- just in case anyone might start getting jumpy, or something.) For example, I haven't yet a clue how to do some of the simple things I do with Sun machines, like hit L1-A ("Stop-A," for those with newer keyboards) & modify the boot PROM (to change the boot device order, or put the machine in diagnostic mode, or probe the SCSI bus(es), for example). Or how to give arguments to "reboot" so I can (for example) cause a single-user-mode reboot; on the Suns, I do that by issuing "reboot -- -s" -- but on FreeBSD, that seems to merely do a normal multi-user reboot. And I find that if (as usual), I'm not all that familiar with the hardware that happens to be available for someone's desktop -- and as I mentioned in another note, there are quite a few of those, and sometimes parts get swapped around -- things get reduced to a "hardware-hacking" session pretty quickly. This is something that is outside my "comfort zone," since it's my job (among other things) to make the systems and the network *work* for the folks I support.... Related to this, I find it difficult to determine precisely what hardware is in a given machine. Again, on the Suns, I have a program ("sysinfo") that does a pretty good job of figuring this stuff out. If I can possibly get the time(!), I'd like to port (note "verb" use, vs. the common FreeBSD "noun" use of "port") the program to FreeBSD, because it's something I find useful -- especially for documenting the (current) configuration of a machine (which is something I would like to get automated for "disaster recovery" preparation). >One thing I've seen in industry is having a spec/manual/document (whatever) that >is very information intensive that caters to the people who use it every day and >are familiar with all the details. Then there is another version of the same >document with all kinds of additional definitions, details, examples, history, >etc. to bring you up to speed. The National Electrical Code works that way, >I've seen electrical specifications work that way, and I like that approach. Hmmm... that sounds like it could be useful.... >I am NOT trying to look down on the efforts of the group that created FreeBSD. >I think this is absolutely amazing that such a system can exist as free >software. I will continue to follow here and -questions. I do intend to keep >beating on the system until I learn how it works and get it running. I'm not >even upset, I'm smiling as I write this. I'm the kind of person who likes to >add the missing rungs, that's all. This is NOT to complain, just to see if >other newbies feel the same way. Points taken & understood. I think there's a lot of overlap between your perceptions & mine, but a fair amount of separation, as well. With work from folks with a broad enough range of perceptions, I expect that "missing rungs" can be crafted & placed where they're most appropriate. Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 11:03:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28998 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca [24.64.63.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28882; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from purebeef@shaw.wave.ca) From: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Received: from purebeef.shaw.wave.ca ([24.64.141.183]) by norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA10930; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:03:01 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980724064754.00818e60@mx.serv.net> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:59:56 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Organization: York Hill Foods To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: RE: I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene. Cc: davidg@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@Awfulhak.org, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24-Jul-98 Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Hi all... FreeBSD is not following proven > modern software testing methodologies in releasing new versions of their > OS, and this is hazardous, to say the least (at the very least, it will > have the effect of "putting off" newbies trying the OS for the first time, > and slow the growth of FreeBSD). > > Perhaps I have it all wrong, and this is the way it's always been done in > the "free software world." I don't care - I don't want any part of it > anymore. I'll be dedicating all 4 gigabytes of my main machine to Windows > 95 (and soon Win98), giving it plenty of room to "spread out." At least > Microsoft has a software testing department. > > I've enjoyed my participation especially on the FreeBSD-related Usenet > newsgroups, and will be sorry to be leaving, but I just couldn't stand to > watch all the bumbling and fumbling around as 2.2.7 was "released," and > the 20+ hours of time wasted downloading 2.2.7, which I don't trust my data > to one iota. My personal opinion is that this release will be > unsuccessful anyway; Many people will look on it as a minor bug fix upgrade > due to the version numbering scheme (2.2.6 -> 2.2.7) and not bother to > download it or purchase a CD-ROM. > > Anyway, thanks for an "interesting" and at times enjoyable (also at times > highly disappointing) learning experience. Perhaps a commercial Unix would > be more suited for my purposes (which consist mainly of learning Unix right > now), and there's still a slight chance I may give Linux a shot. > > Best to all, > > Tim > fewtch@serv.net > > -- > My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - > lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. > > I as a newbie for the last 3 years can't beleive you would just drop FreeBSD so quickly. Are you on some kind of power trip? Did you try to write something for FreeBSD but were turned down? Battling with unix concepts for the last 3 years is probably what has kept my interest alive...if I were to just take the "take it or leave it" attitude, best I quit living altogether. By the way, are you the person that left the instructions on one of the mailing lists regarding upgrading? If you are, you certainly have a short fuse. Another thing, do you think you can tell gates to close microsoft for going on tv and having his operation system (win98) go down? That would certainly be a great acheivement. l8trz, lanny ---------------------------------- E-Mail: purebeef@shaw.wave.ca Date: 24-Jul-98 Time: 13:54:22 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 13:42:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24773 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24766; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:42:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02248; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:41:50 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199807242041.IAA02248@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:41:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene. Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: brian@Awfulhak.org, davidg@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.19980724064754.00818e60@mx.serv.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I'm a newbie. Previously I've seen comments similar to your but pertaining to other products and under different circumstances and on products with which I am much more familiar. I have about 20 years of experience in software engineering. About 6 weeks of that is with UNIX. I also have no idea who Tim is. Never heard of him before. Please keep the above in mind when reading the below. On 24 Jul 98, at 6:47, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > FreeBSD is not following > proven modern software testing methodologies in releasing new versions of > their OS, and this is hazardous, to say the least (at the very least, it > will have the effect of "putting off" newbies trying the OS for the first > time, and slow the growth of FreeBSD). It hasn't stopped me. As far as I've seen and heard, FreeBSD uses open software techniques. Bugs are there in any software. You just have to search often enough. > Perhaps I have it all wrong, and this is the way it's always been done in > the "free software world." I don't care - I don't want any part of it > anymore. I'll be dedicating all 4 gigabytes of my main machine to Windows > 95 (and soon Win98), giving it plenty of room to "spread out." At least > Microsoft has a software testing department. I use all of the software you just mentioned. Just because there is a department dedicated to testing doesn't mean a thing. The quality does not come because of a fancy title. It comes from the dedication and hard work of the coders. From looking at the uptimes of various machines, it is clear that Windows is not a leader in this area. As someone said last night, "I'm as unimpressed with an uptime of 10 days on a Windows machine as I am with an uptime of 1 year on a UNIX box". > I've enjoyed my participation especially on the FreeBSD-related Usenet > newsgroups, and will be sorry to be leaving, but I just couldn't stand to > watch all the bumbling and fumbling around as 2.2.7 was "released," and > the 20+ hours of time wasted downloading 2.2.7, which I don't trust my > data to one iota. My personal opinion is that this release will be > unsuccessful anyway; Many people will look on it as a minor bug fix > upgrade due to the version numbering scheme (2.2.6 -> 2.2.7) and not > bother to download it or purchase a CD-ROM. This paragraph makes me think you're just pissed off at your time wastage. Upgrading to any software is risky let alone software which has been recently released. Live and learn. Perhaps next time you'll wait for feedback before downloading. FWIW, I'm still on 2.2.5 because that's the CDs I was given. I read the recent posting of Jordan K. Hubbard (never heard of him before either) with regards to the problems he had with the release. My interpretation of the situation certainly wasn't negative. I thought he acted professionally. Mistakes happen. Bummer. Shit happens. And I'm sure it won't happen again (to Jordan). > Anyway, thanks for an "interesting" and at times enjoyable (also at times > highly disappointing) learning experience. Perhaps a commercial Unix > would be more suited for my purposes (which consist mainly of learning > Unix right now), and there's still a slight chance I may give Linux a > shot. This is strange. I don't see how you will get away from the problem with Linux. What I've heard is that they have more frequent upgrades, but they are not as stable as the FreeBSD upgrades. Again, I have no direct experience of this, just what I've been told (granted, by a FreeBSD, but one whom I've known professionally long before I used FreeBSD). I welcome comment on the above. I'm a newbie and may not know what I'm talking about. But I remain confident in what I've said until I get taught otherwise. cheers. -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited http://www.dvl-software.com/freebsd : my [mis]adventures To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 14:51:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07344 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:51:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07328; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:51:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807242151.OAA07328@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980724054003.0081ea80@mx.serv.net> from Tim Gerchmez at "Jul 24, 98 05:40:03 am" To: fewtch@serv.net (Tim Gerchmez) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Cc: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, asami@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Gerchmez wrote: > (my mistake), and no longer have 2.2.7 in my possession to test them again > and write down the details. Also, being simply a casual hobbyist and not a > FreeBSD developer or member of the core team, I don't see that it's MY JOB > to document these kinds of problems, simply to mention them. Let those who > have committed themselves to working on FreeBSD research the problem. I > get nothing whatsoever out of all this, including the posting you interpret > as a "pack of lies." Tim, undocumented reports of problems (tales out of school) do nothing to help fix the problems. if the problems are present others will find them as well. the first person to send in a useful problem report will aid those that fix the problems. the rest is not helpful. Please send in useful, documented bug reports (man send-pr) or just a short note. if you are going to take the time to write a longer note, please make it useful. jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 19:30:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23768 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23762 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA13293 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:30:12 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:30:12 +1000 (EST) From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <199807250230.MAA13293@phoenix.welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (Last updated 18 July 1998) This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources:charters.html) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jul 24 22:24:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09946 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dana.clari.net.au (dana.clari.net.au [203.27.85.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09851; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:23:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@clari.net.au) Received: from localhost (peter@localhost) by dana.clari.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03365; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:23:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@clari.net.au) X-Authentication-Warning: dana.clari.net.au: peter owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:23:08 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Hawkins To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@Awfulhak.org, davidg@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980724064754.00818e60@mx.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmm Let's get some perspective here. You report a problem which noone else has been able to reproduce (I've run 2.2.7 since a few hours after its release with no problems at all) and when asked to give send a log or (if you haven't kept one) reinstall and retain the report the second time to permit people to investigate, you claim harrassment? For years, I was the systems administrator in charge of supercomputers (all of which ran bleeding edge software and OSes all the time, so bugchasing was a constant responsibility) and a lecturer at one of the world's largest and most respected universities. I have reported faults and provided suggestions to all of the major commercial systems providers. Let me tell you this: if you filed the report you did with *ANY OF THESE* you would have been completely ignored. At least FreeBSD took you seriously! Most operating systems developers assume first that you "probably buggerred somethign up" until they receive many identical complaints. They will then follow up if the fault is properly reported (as yours was not), IF their company believes it's worth it, with a request a few months later that you repeat the procedure and send them the logs. The uni had staff members who did little else *but* repeat procedures that were suspect for the purposes of sending the logs to SGI, DEC, SUN, CRAY or whoever. At this point, if you were *lucky* they wouldn't just say "wait for the next release" (but we were rarely lucky and the next release usually had not fixed the fault). In one case (SGI) their official policy is that patches are released and it's up to you to watch their web site and get them. They also have a policy of not checking patches with already-patched OS releases. This means that patch #32765 (say) which is required to run your Gaussian 97 can only be installed if you don't install patch #34544 which prevents a known NMI hang or plugs a known security hole. Of the many thousands of patches, the interactions are neither explored by them actively or (for the most part) published. Basically, you see a bug. You call them. They put you on to USA. You call USA. USA say "try the web site". You wade through the patch list and just maybe you find one. You d/l it and install it. You then pray that none of your users come screaming to you about it breaking somethign else. It breaks something else (or you think maybe the patch did, but you can't tell). You do another round of phone calls. You read the web site. You give up and uninstall all ptches ("SGI standard procedure") and install them (typically a hundred) one at a time until it breaks again. (Your uni's supercomputer has now been down for a week). When you finally find the interraction, you decide which patch to put in based on which user has the most research money and can make your life the most hell. You do it and wait for the other to go for your blood by saying "sorry nothing we can do". The user finally gives up and goes away. The next week you get a call... "something new has broken on the SGI PowerChallenge". You weep. Come to think of it, is there any chance of porting FreeBSD to an SGI PowerChallenge anyone? You say FreeBSD isn't following other OS's standards for bug tracking and reporting? I agree! This is why I use it ;) The words "thank god they are not" spring to mind. The FreeBSD community: 1. didn't reject you out of hand despite you being one voice and instead treated your report seriously 2. responded same day (as opposed to in a few months, if ever) 3. didn't say "read the manual and try again" but instead treated you as an adult and assumed you may be right and asked for info to see what could be wrong. 4. didn't throw itself into "don't criticise our product" mode like most 5. didn't say "wait for the next release" but were prepared to patch this one. 6. didn't throw their least senior programmers at it while the seniors worked on the things they took seriously 7. asked you the *same question* and for the *same information* that all designers ask if and when they do take you seriously (ie for either a way to reproduce it or for a log which shows what happens on your system if you don't know how to reproduce it specifically). 8. would have worked round the clock to patch it (witness recent well publicised security holes which FreeBSD patched 6 months before their commercial counterparts who had been saying "solution: don't run rlogind" all that time) 9. would have kept in contact with you 10. would have regarded any incompatability between the resulting patch and existing patches as a further bug to be solved. It seems to me you reported "227 is shite fix it" and assumed it's "shite" to anyone who tries. Well you're wrong. I run it just fine and to my knowledge noone else has yet seen your problem. Unlike most though, we do not then go on to say "so you must have screwed up", but we say "ok so there may be something different about your system somewhere that causes it to highlight a fault we cannot see so can we know more please?" If you cannot accept this it's impossible to address your problem unless someone with greater expertise in fault reporting has the same experience as you did and provides us a means of reproducing it in a test situation. I believe that the FreeBSD community will not miss you and I wish you well with your proposal to do is your right and use our "incompetant" but donated labour to make money. Peter Hilink Internet Peter Hawkins 381 Swan St Richmond, Vic, Australia Ph: +61-3-9421 2006 Fax: +61-3-9421 2007 http://www.hilink.com.au Peter@hilink.com.au FreeBSD Project: thepish@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jul 25 08:03:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26870 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from servicios.ubp.edu.ar (200.32.95.231.impsat.net.ar [200.32.95.231] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26730 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:02:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from meschoyez@ubp.edu.ar) Received: from webmail ([200.32.95.227]) by servicios.ubp.edu.ar (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with SMTP id 643; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:05:54 -0300 From: "Maximiliano A. Eschoyez" To: "Peter D. Pawelek" Subject: Re: Linus speaks X-Mailer: Netscape Messenger Express 1.0x [Mozilla/3.01Gold (Win95; I)] Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:05:54 -0300 Message-ID: <19980725150553958.AAA201.643@webmail> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Newbies: First, excuses for the delay... >Quoting Chris Browning (brownicm@netunlimited.net): >> It's little enough I know about linux (having my hands full at the >> moment), but it's been getting good press. I figure it's a good thing >> for *nix of whatever flavor. I don't grouse. We can cross-compile, >> right? > >I absolutely agree. FreeBSD can only benefit from the success of Linux. >The last thing we all need is a holy war between FreeBSD and Linux.... >after all, the Linux people can handle only one holy war at a time, and >they're currently on a jihad against Mr. Gates. ;) > >Peter Pawelek (ppawel@axess.com) >they're currently on a jihad against Mr. Gates. ;) I think that all the Un*x users have to cooperate in the distribution, not in the war. We don't have to fight, all the users from different platforms have to know his necesities and choose the most convenient OS. If someone wants to pay for a trying_to_be_OS, they're free, I prefer quality and power at a low cost :-) If Mr. Gates earns lot of money is because people (programmers specially) follow him. Maxi First Circle (or I'm wrong) Sometimes Free Software is better than commercial. Free-BSD the Power to Serve. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jul 25 08:55:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03238 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from welchlink.welch.jhu.edu (welchlink.welch.jhu.EDU [128.220.59.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03206 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:55:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from akabi@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu) Received: from localhost by welchlink.welch.jhu.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA12869 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:54:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "N. Emile Akabi-Davis" To: FreeBSD Newbies Subject: Reflections on FreeBSD 2.2.6 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I installed FreeBSD 2.2.6 for the first time on Monday and for the second time last night. I will probably install again soon. Coming from Linux, I must say it requires a different mindset. The installation was nearly problem free, but I got thru it. I do have a couple of things I would like to get done like setting up my PnP modem and getting my cdrom to play music. But I have come reading to do. Major problem for me is getting used to using the ESC key for filename completion instead of the TAB key. I also have to get used to the fact that csh does not allow me to use the UP/DOWN arrow keys for cycling thru past issue commands. Well at least I do not know what to set as yet to allow this. Another quirk I noticed was that in X, my backspace key deletes forwards. I would like it to delete backwards ;) I notice there is no support for parallel port Zip Drives as yet, so I'll have to copy/backup to a Linux partition and from there transfer to a Zip disk. Oh yeah, I recompiled my kernel successfully. BTW, when booting up, why does it just sit there as if something is wrong when it is detecting my harddrive and cdrom. I nearly gave it the three fingered salute the first time that happened. Seems bootup is slightly shorter than Linux, but shutdown is much faster. So far, things look promising. I try spend as much time in FreeBSD as possible. It will not replace Linux, but it will stay on a *used* companion to Linux. Well I have to got to -questions now and see what I knowledge I can pick up there. Thanks to all the guys for the good work there have put it. -- Caio |Oliver's Law: Experience is something you N.Emile | do not get until just after you need it. /*Standard disclaimer in place*/| Help Stamp out and Abolish #include | Redundancy and Repitition. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jul 25 10:37:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10843 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ss454.dyn.ml.org (michaelr@putc7159070.cts.com [204.216.159.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10815; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michaelr@ss454.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (michaelr@localhost) by ss454.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00418; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:36:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michaelr@ss454.dyn.ml.org) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Reeh cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving the FreeBSD scene. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pete, I coudln't have said it better myself! Mike Reeh michaelr@ss454.dyn.ml.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Jul 25 10:47:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11709 for freebsd-newbies-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11698 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:47:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA21402; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:50:35 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: "N. Emile Akabi-Davis" cc: FreeBSD Newbies Subject: Re: Reflections on FreeBSD 2.2.6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, N. Emile Akabi-Davis wrote: > do. Major problem for me is getting used to using the ESC key for > filename completion instead of the TAB key. I also have to get > used to the fact that csh does not allow me to use the UP/DOWN This isn't FreeBSD, it's the shell you are using. If you make your shell bash instead of csh, it will be just like Linux's default in that regard. Or, try tcsh if you want a csh-style shell. Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message