From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 2:46:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles511.castles.com [208.214.165.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CC314C2B for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA98685; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199911281047.CAA98685@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Peter.Blok@inter.NL.net Cc: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AXPCI33 & IDE In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:02:56 +0100." <000301bf38cf$581f5f60$8aac9f0a@homebrew> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:47:12 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I bought an AXPPCI33 board and i'm running freebsd on it now. However i > can't find information how to configure ISA boards. I know isacfg exists, > but how am i able to use plug-and-prey boards with it? You let FreeBSD perform resource allocation. > I don't know the > resources used? You don't need to. > Do i have to configure it fixed in an i386 pc and then > isacfg it in the alpha? How would you do this? You don't "configure" PnP devices. > Also, how can i use the on-board IDE? It doesn't > seem to recognize it? The SRM firmware doesn't support the IDE interface, but the ata code should pick it up. This means you can't boot from it. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 13:42:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from alcanet.com.au (border.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F7714BEE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:42:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <40335>; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:35:12 +1100 Content-return: prohibited Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:42:20 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: de0: abnormal interrupt: transmit underflow In-reply-to: <19991126131515.C2EB21C6D@overcee.netplex.com.au> To: Peter Wemm Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Message-Id: <99Nov29.083512est.40335@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <19991126131515.C2EB21C6D@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1999-Nov-27 00:15:15 +1100, Peter Wemm wrote: > Main memory should >be plenty fast enough to keep up, as it's a good 500+mbyte/sec, and we only >need in the order of 12kbyte/sec to keep the transmitter busy. ^M >It's as though the chips have a bug and "forget" about keeping the fifo >full. I half thought I saw Bill Paul say he was suspicious that it's >something to do with the descriptor layout and that keeping the transmitter >running from a contiguous mbuf cluster rather than collecting the frame >from multiple mbuf fragments might be the solution. Given exactly the same warning message in Compaq Tru64 (aka Digital UNIX aka OSF/1), it looks to be a hardware bug, rather than a driver error (unless we have managed to replicate a bug in DEC's code[*]). A fault in the FIFO management seems the most likely. Since the Tx underflows generate rubbish on the wire, is there any way to initialise the chips so they start with 1024 byte FIFO's when running at 100mbps? This would somewhat increase latency, but would reduce the number of garbage ethernet frames generated. Peter [*] Though I've read about experiments showing that this is more common than would be expected. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 17:32:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from gw.one.com.au (gw.one.com.au [203.18.85.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39BD15412 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:32:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MAX@one.com.au) Received: from one.com.au (pxx.local [10.18.85.1]) by gw.one.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA18008 for freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:31:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from MAX@one.com.au) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:31:52 +1000 (EST) From: MAX@one.com.au Message-Id: <199911290131.LAA18008@gw.one.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a Digital Alpha200 station planned to be install with FREEBSD OS. Firstly I am having the trouble of booting up at the main console, I used the kern.flp and mfsroot.flp to boot up to begin the installation. Right after it boot up with the prompt of terminal selection where you have 4 choices, my keyboard give no response to the machine. Wonder why? Secondly, alternatively, i used a serial port terminal to get the console prompt. I am able to boot up and begin with installation process. But the only thing is that I have the error message on installation which are from the documentation files where i presume that it do no harm to the installation process. Upon the end, where we suppose to put in root passwd, the process was skipped, due to unknown reason. I tried to reboot after the installation, but the OS does not even get boot up. here's ther error msg after I reboot: (boot dka0.0.0.6.0 -flags a) block 0 of dka0.0.0.6.0 is a valid boot block reading 15 blocks from dka0.0.0.6.0 bootstrap code read in base=if2000, image_start=0, image_bytes=1e00 initializing HWRPB at 2000 initializing page table at 1e4000 initializing machine state setting affinity to the primary CPU jumping to bootstrap code *** keyboard not plugged in ... Can't open file /boot/loader *** keyboard not plugged in ... halted CPU 0 halt code=5 HALT instruction executed PC=20000038 boot failure >>> So, how should i get the freebsd running? Do we need to update the alpha station firmware ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 17:58:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from gw.one.com.au (gw.one.com.au [203.18.85.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDC914EAF for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:58:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MAX@one.com.au) Received: from one.com.au (pxx.local [10.18.85.1]) by gw.one.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA18068 for freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:58:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from MAX@one.com.au) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:58:16 +1000 (EST) From: MAX@one.com.au Message-Id: <199911290158.LAA18068@gw.one.com.au> Subject: Need HELP on Alpha freebsd!! Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a Digital Alpha200 station planned to be install with FREEBSD OS. Firstly I am having the trouble of booting up at the main console, I used the kern.flp and mfsroot.flp to boot up to begin the installation. Right after it boot up with the prompt of terminal selection where you have 4 choices, my keyboard give no response to the machine. Wonder why? Secondly, alternatively, i used a serial port terminal to get the console prompt. I am able to boot up and begin with installation process. But the only thing is that I have the error message on installation which are from the documentation files where i presume that it do no harm to the installation process. Upon the end, where we suppose to put in root passwd, the process was skipped, due to unknown reason. I tried to reboot after the installation, but the OS does not even get boot up. here's ther error msg after I reboot: (boot dka0.0.0.6.0 -flags a) block 0 of dka0.0.0.6.0 is a valid boot block reading 15 blocks from dka0.0.0.6.0 bootstrap code read in base=if2000, image_start=0, image_bytes=1e00 initializing HWRPB at 2000 initializing page table at 1e4000 initializing machine state setting affinity to the primary CPU jumping to bootstrap code *** keyboard not plugged in ... Can't open file /boot/loader *** keyboard not plugged in ... halted CPU 0 halt code=5 HALT instruction executed PC=20000038 boot failure >>> So, how should i get the freebsd running? Do we need to update the alpha station firmware ? Thanks . max To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 18:36: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E3F15020 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 18:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (x130-65-210-24.sjsu.edu [130.65.210.24]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15652 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 18:35:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3841E675.3415CAEB@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 18:35:33 -0800 From: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: boot install disk on multia Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've had a couple problems with this install. First off, the SRM console in general... my lowly monitor only goes up to 1024x768. I know SRM is in 1280x1024 on the multia by default. I searched around and found a site with jumper settings for changing the resolution. Unfortunatally, while the resolution DOES change, it never seems to become anything my monitor can handle. i tried setting it to 640x480, and it's still weird. This is all just a side note, because I CAN set up a serial console, i just don't have the serial cable yet. In any case, the main problem, is that booting the floppy (and yes, i've written the image, and rewritten that, and it doesn't change at all), it all seems to go fine for a while, and then just stops. ANY ideas? As I said, I DID try redownloading the .flp's a few billion times, tried a whole bunch of different disks, and it does the same thing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 19:36:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from melia.qut.edu.au (melia.qut.edu.au [131.181.127.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD4B14F98 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:36:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yc.yeo@student.qut.edu.au) Received: from sparrow.qut.edu.au (sparrow.qut.edu.au [131.181.127.165]) by melia.qut.edu.au (PMDF V5.2-32 #40788) with ESMTP id <0FLX002FPWO5Q0@melia.qut.edu.au> for freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:36:05 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (n2493381@localhost) by sparrow.qut.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23572 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:36:05 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:36:04 +1000 (EST) From: MAX YEO Subject: Need HELP on AlphaStation 200 freebsd installation. To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi All, I have a Digital Alpha200 station planned to be install with FREEBSD OS. Firstly I am having the trouble of booting up at the main console, I used the kern.flp and mfsroot.flp to boot up to begin the installation. Right after it boot up with the prompt of terminal selection where you have 4 choices, my keyboard give no response to the machine. Wonder why? Secondly, alternatively, i used a serial port connection terminal(VT320) to get the console prompt. I am able to boot up and begin with installation process. But the only thing is that I have the error message on installation which are from the documentation files where i presume that it do no harm to the installation process. Upon the end of installation process, where we suppose to put in root passwd, the process was skipped, due to unknown reason. I tried to reboot after the installation, but the OS does not even get boot up. here's ther error msg after I reboot: (boot dka0.0.0.6.0 -flags a) block 0 of dka0.0.0.6.0 is a valid boot block reading 15 blocks from dka0.0.0.6.0 bootstrap code read in base=if2000, image_start=0, image_bytes=1e00 initializing HWRPB at 2000 initializing page table at 1e4000 initializing machine state setting affinity to the primary CPU jumping to bootstrap code *** keyboard not plugged in ... Can't open file /boot/loader *** keyboard not plugged in ... halted CPU 0 halt code=5 HALT instruction executed PC=20000038 boot failure >>> So, how should i get the freebsd running? Do we need to update the alpha station firmware ? Thanks . max To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 20:42:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles554.castles.com [208.214.165.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F9615395 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:42:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01932; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:41:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199911290441.UAA01932@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: MAX@one.com.au Cc: alpha@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:31:52 +1000." <199911290131.LAA18008@gw.one.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:41:55 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The correct method for soliciting help on this topic is _not_ to spam multiple lists with your question. > I have a Digital Alpha200 station planned to be install with FREEBSD OS. > Firstly I am having the trouble of booting up at the main console, I used the > kern.flp and mfsroot.flp to boot up to begin the installation. Right after it > boot up with the prompt of terminal selection where you have 4 choices, my > keyboard give no response to the machine. Wonder why? Because you have the SRM 'console' variable set incorrectly, and FreeBSD believes that you are using a serial terminal. The SRM knows how to probe for a keyboard, but doesn't correctly export the terminal interface. Thus, you must set 'console' to either 'graphics' or 'serial'. > Secondly, alternatively, i used a serial port terminal to get the console > prompt. I am able to boot up and begin with installation process. But the only > thing is that I have the error message on installation which are from the > documentation files where i presume that it do no harm to the installation > process. I cannot parse this. > (boot dka0.0.0.6.0 -flags a) > block 0 of dka0.0.0.6.0 is a valid boot block > reading 15 blocks from dka0.0.0.6.0 > bootstrap code read in > base=if2000, image_start=0, image_bytes=1e00 > initializing HWRPB at 2000 > initializing page table at 1e4000 > initializing machine state > setting affinity to the primary CPU > jumping to bootstrap code > *** keyboard not plugged in ... > Can't open file /boot/loader > *** keyboard not plugged in ... Your installation did not complete correctly. Try again. > So, how should i get the freebsd running? Install it correctly. It's not really very hard. If you go to the questions list, and promise to give them more information than you've given us, you should get the sort of help you need. > Do we need to update the alpha station firmware ? It's always a good idea, but I don't think that's your problem. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 20:46: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles554.castles.com [208.214.165.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839FC14EAF for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:46:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01991; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199911290446.UAA01991@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: boot install disk on multia In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Nov 1999 18:35:33 PST." <3841E675.3415CAEB@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:46:37 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've had a couple problems with this install. First off, the SRM console > in general... my lowly monitor only goes up to 1024x768. I know SRM is > in 1280x1024 on the multia by default. I searched around and found a > site with jumper settings for changing the resolution. Unfortunatally, > while the resolution DOES change, it never seems to become anything my > monitor can handle. i tried setting it to 640x480, and it's still weird. You probably need a better/different monitor then. I certainly don't have any trouble on a Sony GDM400PS. > In any case, the main problem, is that booting the floppy (and yes, > i've written the image, and rewritten that, and it doesn't change at > all), it all seems to go fine for a while, and then just stops. ANY > ideas? As I said, I DID try redownloading the .flp's a few billion > times, tried a whole bunch of different disks, and it does the same > thing. We don't support the onboard video in the Multia; you have to use a serial console. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 22:14: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from frond.minions.com (adsl-63-192-211-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.192.211.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9500715072 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 22:14:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bifrost@minions.com) Received: from localhost.minions.com (localhost.minions.com [127.0.0.1]) by frond.minions.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06044; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 22:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bifrost@minions.com) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 22:14:00 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: boot install disk on multia In-Reply-To: <3841E675.3415CAEB@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've had a couple problems with this install. First off, the SRM console > in general... my lowly monitor only goes up to 1024x768. I know SRM is > in 1280x1024 on the multia by default. I searched around and found a > site with jumper settings for changing the resolution. Unfortunatally, > while the resolution DOES change, it never seems to become anything my > monitor can handle. i tried setting it to 640x480, and it's still weird. I had a lot of problems with this while installing Net/OpenBSD on my multia, what helped was booting into the ARC, setting up stuff in there, then rebooting the box by blipping the power switch, this seemed to do something to keep the resolution in the right place. The boxes have a hard time remebering things between reboots :/ What kind of monitor do you have? I've used a couple different monitors, and had the best luck with rMedia and NEW Sun Multisync monitors. > This is all just a side note, because I CAN set up a serial console, > i just don't have the serial cable yet. Its a heck of a lot easier with the serial :) Its a nice lil dinky null-modem cable. > In any case, the main problem, is that booting the floppy (and yes, > i've written the image, and rewritten that, and it doesn't change at > all), it all seems to go fine for a while, and then just stops. ANY > ideas? As I said, I DID try redownloading the .flp's a few billion > times, tried a whole bunch of different disks, and it does the same > thing. The multias have terrible floppies, I ended up tossing the 2.88 .flp onto a SCSI Zip disk and booting off of that, *much* easier. Supposedly its a known thing that the multia floppy drives suck, and more importantly its the floppy cables that cause the problems because they're not well shielded enough. I haven't tried netbooting my multia yet, but that might be the easiest way of installing... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Nov 28 23:56:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE95C14A31 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:56:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (x130-65-210-24.sjsu.edu [130.65.210.24]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20921 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:56:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384231AE.69FEAFF9@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:56:30 -0800 From: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: UPDATE: boot install disk on multia Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ok, about the monitor res, turns out i just had to be smart and play around with the jumpers until i got lucky. In any case, as i said, that problem WAS only secondary. Let me clarify the problem with the disk boot. It gets all the way through the kern.flp load, and asks for the mfsroot.flp. It starts that ok, with the usual errors (about over/underruns) and then dumps a whole bunch of stuff on the screen, in the form of: ----------------------------------- --------------------------- --------------------------- --------------------------- --------------------------- --------------------------- --------------------------- repeated. mostly numbers... some hex... any ideas besides the zip disk one? I AM thinking about the that but, i dont HAVE a zip drive, so i'd have to borrow one... what did you use? the scsi one? I'd think that's the only one you could boot from. And i don't know anyone with one of those. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 0: 2:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles554.castles.com [208.214.165.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E958B14F41 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:02:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02716; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:03:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199911290803.AAA02716@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UPDATE: boot install disk on multia In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:56:30 PST." <384231AE.69FEAFF9@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:03:23 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Let me clarify the problem with the disk boot. > > It gets all the way through the kern.flp load, and asks for the > mfsroot.flp. It starts that ok, with the usual errors (about > over/underruns) and then dumps a whole bunch of stuff on the screen, in > the form of: > > ----------------------------------- > --------------------------- > --------------------------- > --------------------------- > --------------------------- > --------------------------- > --------------------------- > > repeated. mostly numbers... some hex... any ideas besides the zip disk > one? I AM thinking about the that but, i dont HAVE a zip drive, so i'd > have to borrow one... what did you use? the scsi one? I'd think that's > the only one you could boot from. And i don't know anyone with one of > those. Your floppy drive is probably screwed. You may want to try updating to the latest SRM, which does a little better with the floppy drive, as well as trying a couple of new floppies (if you haven't already). Aside from that, you're really down to a network install, which is not particularly easy. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 0:14:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from frond.minions.com (adsl-63-192-211-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.192.211.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9958B15103; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:14:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bifrost@minions.com) Received: from localhost.minions.com (localhost.minions.com [127.0.0.1]) by frond.minions.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06742; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:14:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bifrost@minions.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:14:30 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: Mike Smith Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UPDATE: boot install disk on multia In-Reply-To: <199911290803.AAA02716@mass.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Your floppy drive is probably screwed. You may want to try updating to > the latest SRM, which does a little better with the floppy drive, as well > as trying a couple of new floppies (if you haven't already). Yeah, the floppies in the multias are really bad :/ Whats the easiest way to get new firmware into these boxes? Mine's got the dual ARC/SRM and so far I have only seen a floppy upgrade option, but I don't have a place to get that from. > Aside from that, you're really down to a network install, which is not > particularly easy. Definately not easy, I've been reading the mailing lists on netbooting some boxes and its definately a bit hairy. I would suggest the zip drive method, or even just dd'ing the image onto a spare SCSI HD that you're not installing to. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 0:22:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F78514C1D; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (x130-65-210-24.sjsu.edu [130.65.210.24]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09691; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:22:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384237C8.ECDD6C0D@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:22:32 -0800 From: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UPDATE: boot install disk on multia References: <199911290803.AAA02716@mass.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith wrote: > Your floppy drive is probably screwed. You may want to try updating to > the latest SRM, which does a little better with the floppy drive, as well > as trying a couple of new floppies (if you haven't already). > > Aside from that, you're really down to a network install, which is not > particularly easy. Ok, but what version of the Zip drive did you use? (just for future reference) And about the network install: i WILL go read the doc's on it, but do you do it over the serial link? or ethernet? Thanks P.S. Re: the firmware update I have the latest, and i dont think they're going to be upgrading any more, considering the dec ftp site says the product's "discontinued." you can get the firmware update at ftp.digital.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 0:50:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from frond.minions.com (adsl-63-192-211-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.192.211.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A25E14CB5 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:50:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bifrost@minions.com) Received: from localhost.minions.com (localhost.minions.com [127.0.0.1]) by frond.minions.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06872; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bifrost@minions.com) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:50:14 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UPDATE: boot install disk on multia In-Reply-To: <384237C8.ECDD6C0D@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Ok, but what version of the Zip drive did you use? (just for future > reference) SCSI Zip Drive, 100MB version. I DD'ed the 2.88 image onto the zip from another FreeBSD box, then stuck it in the alpha and booted off it. I actually ran on a zip for a while :) > And about the network install: i WILL go read the doc's on it, but do you do > it over the serial link? or ethernet? Over ethernet is usually the best way. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 6:48: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9591501D; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 06:47:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25840; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA56513; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:46:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:46:42 -0500 (EST) To: Mike Smith Cc: MAX@one.com.au, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199911290441.UAA01932@mass.cdrom.com> References: <199911290131.LAA18008@gw.one.com.au> <199911290441.UAA01932@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14402.36967.161979.501638@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith writes: > > *** keyboard not plugged in ... > > Can't open file /boot/loader > > *** keyboard not plugged in ... > > Your installation did not complete correctly. Try again. > > > So, how should i get the freebsd running? > > Install it correctly. It's not really very hard. If you go to the > questions list, and promise to give them more information than you've > given us, you should get the sort of help you need. This sounds a lot like what Juan E. Navarro was complaining about with a -current install onto an xp1000. I think that sysinstall might be hosed for alpha. Either that, or it is far too easy to make a mistake & inadvertantly end up with a system which will not boot. Do any of the Q/A people have alphas? > > Do we need to update the alpha station firmware ? > > It's always a good idea, but I don't think that's your problem. This is not always true. My motto is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" Sometimes a firmware upgrade can hose your system totally. The latest version of the SRM firmware update CD ROM contains bogus firmware for the AlphaStation 500 which can turn your motherboard into a large paperweight. Also, you need to be careful when upgrading older 3000/400 machines to modern firmware. Some of them cannot be upgraded because the SROM chip is incompatabile with newer firmware. Again, you get a paperweight if you try. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 9:47:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles535.castles.com [208.214.165.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B7A1526C; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:47:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00432; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:48:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199911291748.JAA00432@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: Mike Smith , MAX@one.com.au, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:46:42 EST." <14402.36967.161979.501638@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:48:10 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Mike Smith writes: > > > *** keyboard not plugged in ... > > > Can't open file /boot/loader > > > *** keyboard not plugged in ... > > > > Your installation did not complete correctly. Try again. > > > > > So, how should i get the freebsd running? > > > > Install it correctly. It's not really very hard. If you go to the > > questions list, and promise to give them more information than you've > > given us, you should get the sort of help you need. > > This sounds a lot like what Juan E. Navarro was complaining about with > a -current install onto an xp1000. I think that sysinstall might be > hosed for alpha. Either that, or it is far too easy to make a mistake > & inadvertantly end up with a system which will not boot. Not as far as I can tell; at least, the install I did last week (network install from ftp.cdrom.com onto a DS20) completed just fine. It even does DHCP correctly. > Do any of the Q/A people have alphas? I have a couple now; I'll be relegating the noname to continual install testing now. I've looked at Juan's report, but so far I don't have any concrete ideas, sorry. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 9:50:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F94E152A0; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:50:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00799; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA56827; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:49:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:49:56 -0500 (EST) To: Mike Smith Cc: alpha@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199911291748.JAA00432@mass.cdrom.com> References: <14402.36967.161979.501638@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <199911291748.JAA00432@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14402.48231.498211.893639@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith writes: > > > > Mike Smith writes: > > > > *** keyboard not plugged in ... > > > > Can't open file /boot/loader > > > > *** keyboard not plugged in ... > > > > > > Your installation did not complete correctly. Try again. > > > > > > > So, how should i get the freebsd running? > > > > > > Install it correctly. It's not really very hard. If you go to the > > > questions list, and promise to give them more information than you've > > > given us, you should get the sort of help you need. > > > > This sounds a lot like what Juan E. Navarro was complaining about with > > a -current install onto an xp1000. I think that sysinstall might be > > hosed for alpha. Either that, or it is far too easy to make a mistake > > & inadvertantly end up with a system which will not boot. > > Not as far as I can tell; at least, the install I did last week (network > install from ftp.cdrom.com onto a DS20) completed just fine. It even > does DHCP correctly. YES! I've been waiting for somebody to say that. I'm very, very happy that the ds20 code is working. > > Do any of the Q/A people have alphas? > > I have a couple now; I'll be relegating the noname to continual install > testing now. I've looked at Juan's report, but so far I don't have any > concrete ideas, sorry. Darn. It seemed like to much of a coincidence to ignore.. Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 11:47:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from alcanet.com.au (border.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE81215249 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:47:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <40335>; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:40:04 +1100 Content-return: prohibited Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:47:18 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: UPDATE: boot install disk on multia In-reply-to: <384237C8.ECDD6C0D@uclink4.berkeley.edu> To: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Message-Id: <99Nov30.064004est.40335@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <199911290803.AAA02716@mass.cdrom.com> <384237C8.ECDD6C0D@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1999-Nov-29 19:22:32 +1100, manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu wrote: >And about the network install: i WILL go read the doc's on it, but do you do >it over the serial link? or ethernet? I'm reasonably certain that it's not possible using the serial link: The main serial link is used as the console. According to my reading of the kernel config file, the second link is "reserved for low-level IO" (though I haven't tried using it). It's just painful over Ethernet: The Multia SRM is broken in ways that are incompatible with netboot: The SRM is old enough to require the MAC address hard-coded into netboot (reasonably simple given a binary editor and a 64-bit hex calculator), but does not meet netboot's associated definition of `broken_firmware'. This basically means that you either need a _good_ binary editor (capable of patching constants buried in the code), or you need to re-compile netboot. The 3.2-RELEASE (and earlier) netboots also abuse DHCP (this is fixed back to BOOTP in the later versions). The easiest way is probably to DD the 2.88MB boot image onto a SCSI disk. This can be the same disk you're installing to (though you'll get a warning about partition size mismatches, which can be safely ignored). Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 12:51:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF40815748; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:51:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA04750; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:51:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA57301; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:50:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:50:41 -0500 (EST) To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: HEADS-UP -- 4.0 alpha klds will need recompiling! In-Reply-To: <199911292031.MAA44043@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199911292031.MAA44043@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14402.58799.119398.631087@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My recent change to the ipl functions in -CURRENT means that alpha kld modules will need to be recompiled before rebooting with a kernel built from version 1.14 or greater of sys/alpha/alpha/ipl_funcs.c. Klds will need to be recompiled because now that the spl functions are inlines, their symbols will not be present in the kernel. This is a good time to rebuild your modules anyway, as pal.s will be going away shortly. Andrew Gallatin writes: > gallatin 1999/11/29 12:31:46 PST > > Modified files: > sys/alpha/include ipl.h > sys/alpha/alpha ipl_funcs.c > Log: > inline spl functions. > > In combination with Doug's recent alpha_cpu.h, this reduces the cost > of ipl raising/lowering significantly. This is most pronounced when > doing file reads. Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 15:41:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (mass.cdrom.com [204.216.28.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8B41575F for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:40:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00516; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:59:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199911291759.JAA00516@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: alpha@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 29 Nov 1999 12:49:56 EST." <14402.48231.498211.893639@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:59:00 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Not as far as I can tell; at least, the install I did last week (network > > install from ftp.cdrom.com onto a DS20) completed just fine. It even > > does DHCP correctly. > > YES! I've been waiting for somebody to say that. I'm very, very > happy that the ds20 code is working. Oh; I thought someone'd already tried that. Whoops, I should have told you then. 8) Anything else you'd like to do to this box, or have me do to it? -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Nov 29 17:58:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from gw.one.com.au (gw.one.com.au [203.18.85.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEE41513C for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:57:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MAX@one.com.au) Received: from one.com.au (pxx.local [10.18.85.1]) by gw.one.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA21197 for alpha@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:57:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from MAX@one.com.au) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:57:27 +1000 (EST) From: MAX@one.com.au Message-Id: <199911300157.LAA21197@gw.one.com.au> Subject: re: need help on AlphaStation 200 freebsd installation Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Firstly, I just want to apologise of the multiple list. It was a mistake after I have posted out my mail. Mike Smith wrote: >> I have a Digital Alpha200 station planned to be install with FREEBSD OS. >> Firstly I am having the trouble of booting up at the main console, I used the >> kern.flp and mfsroot.flp to boot up to begin the installation. Right after it> > boot up with the prompt of terminal selection where you have 4 choices, my >> keyboard give no response to the machine. Wonder why? > >Because you have the SRM 'console' variable set incorrectly, and FreeBSD >believes that you are using a serial terminal. The SRM knows how to >probe for a keyboard, but doesn't correctly export the terminal >interface. Thus, you must set 'console' to either 'graphics' or 'serial'. I have tried to set my console to both either 'graphics' or 'serial'. And each setting i redo the whole installation process. But it came no changes with those settings. Finally, I got it fully install from the serial terminal without any error occur. But to my surprise, when I boot it up again, I cant get into the main console. here's my error Initial rc.alpha initialization:. rc.alpha configuring syscons: blank_time/etc/rc.alpha: cannot open /dev/ttyv0 : no such device or address mousedmoused: cannot open /dev/consolectl: Device not configure /etc/rc.alpha: cannot open /dev/ttyv0: no such device or address Local package initialization Tue Nov 30 11:39:54 EST 1999 This is where it stops. But can I get the serial terminal up with a login prompt. This is my /etc/ttys file console none unknown off secure # ttyv0 "/usr/libexec/getty Pc" cons25 on secure # Virtual terminals ttyv1 "/usr/libexec/getty Pc" cons25 on secure ttyv2 "/usr/libexec/getty Pc" cons25 on secure ttyv3 "/usr/X11R6/bin/xdm -nodaemon" xterm off secure # Serial terminals # The 'dialup' keyword identifies dialin lines to login, fingerd etc. ttyd0 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt220 on secure ttyd1 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt220 on secure ttyd2 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" dialup off secure ttyd3 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" dialup off secure And I do have files the devices required pfa# ll /dev/ttyv* crw------- 1 root wheel 12, 0 Nov 30 21:16 /dev/ttyv0 crw------- 1 root wheel 12, 1 Nov 30 21:16 /dev/ttyv1 crw------- 1 root wheel 12, 2 Nov 30 21:16 /dev/ttyv2 crw------- 1 root wheel 12, 3 Nov 30 21:16 /dev/ttyv3 pfa# ll /dev/ttyd* crw------- 1 root tty 28, 0 Nov 30 11:55 /dev/ttyd0 crw------- 1 root wheel 28, 1 Nov 30 21:16 /dev/ttyd1 crw------- 1 root wheel 28, 2 Nov 30 21:16 /dev/ttyd2 crw------- 1 root wheel 28, 3 Nov 30 21:16 /dev/ttyd3 Just wondering why I still cant get a login from my main console. I have check the process, the getty is not in the process. Thanks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 2:24:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles515.castles.com [208.214.165.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6CB15833 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01684 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199911301025.CAA01684@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: need help on AlphaStation 200 freebsd installation In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:57:27 +1000." <199911300157.LAA21197@gw.one.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:25:15 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Firstly, I just want to apologise of the multiple list. It was a mistake after > I have posted out my mail. You might want to try setting a valid reply-to address, since max@one.com.au doesn't work. > >> I have a Digital Alpha200 station planned to be install with FREEBSD OS. > >> Firstly I am having the trouble of booting up at the main console, I used > the > >> kern.flp and mfsroot.flp to boot up to begin the installation. Right after > it> > boot up with the prompt of terminal selection where you have 4 choices, > my >> keyboard give no response to the machine. Wonder why? > > > >Because you have the SRM 'console' variable set incorrectly, and FreeBSD > >believes that you are using a serial terminal. The SRM knows how to > >probe for a keyboard, but doesn't correctly export the terminal > >interface. Thus, you must set 'console' to either 'graphics' or 'serial'. > > I have tried to set my console to both either 'graphics' or 'serial'. > And each setting i redo the whole installation process. But it came no changes > with those settings. The setting of the console directly determines whether you use the video display or the serial console. No more and no less, in a fairly obvious fashion. > Finally, I got it fully install from the serial terminal without any error > occur. But to my surprise, when I boot it up again, I cant get into the main > console. There is no system component or interface that is known as "the main console". > here's my error > > Initial rc.alpha initialization:. > rc.alpha configuring syscons: blank_time/etc/rc.alpha: cannot open /dev/ttyv0 : > no such device or address > mousedmoused: cannot open /dev/consolectl: Device not configure > /etc/rc.alpha: cannot open /dev/ttyv0: no such device or address You have configured the screen saver and mouse daemon, but you don't have a keyboard attached, or are otherwise using a serial console. > This is where it stops. But can I get the serial terminal up with a login > prompt. You still haven't got the console set up properly, or have otherwise botched your keyboard or video. A common mistake is to swap the keyboard and mouse connectors around. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 4:36:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from gw.one.com.au (gw.one.com.au [203.18.85.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E841588C for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 04:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from raymond@one.com.au) Received: from one.com.au (pxx.local [10.18.85.1]) by gw.one.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA00407 for alpha@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:35:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from raymond@one.com.au) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:35:52 +1000 (EST) From: User Raymond Message-Id: <199911301235.WAA00407@gw.one.com.au> Subject: need help on AlphaStation 200 freebsd installation Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG The following is a question (Max) and answer (Mike Smith) session re problems we are having with the AlphaStation 200 and FreeBSD. I'm throwing in my two cents worth because Max has taken over where I got up to a few weeks ago. > > Firstly, I just want to apologise of the multiple list. It was a mistake > > after I have posted out my mail. > > You might want to try setting a valid reply-to address, since > max@one.com.au doesn't work. I have fixed Max's EMail (my problem - the gateway didn't know him). > > >> I have a Digital Alpha200 station planned to be install with FREEBSD OS. > > >> Firstly I am having the trouble of booting up at the main console, I > > >> used the kern.flp and mfsroot.flp to boot up to begin the installation. > > >> Right after it boot up with the prompt of terminal selection where you > > >> have 4 choices, my keyboard give no response to the machine. Wonder why? > > > > > >Because you have the SRM 'console' variable set incorrectly, and FreeBSD > > >believes that you are using a serial terminal. The SRM knows how to > > >probe for a keyboard, but doesn't correctly export the terminal > > >interface. Thus, you must set 'console' to either 'graphics' or 'serial'. > > > > I have tried to set my console to both either 'graphics' or 'serial'. > > And each setting i redo the whole installation process. But it came no > > changes with those settings. > > The setting of the console directly determines whether you use the video > display or the serial console. No more and no less, in a fairly obvious > fashion. The FreeBSD boot loader both displays on the console and accepts input from the keyboard - so I doubt the setting of the SRM variable has anything to do with it. > > Finally, I got it fully install from the serial terminal without any error > > occur. But to my surprise, when I boot it up again, I cant get into the > > main console. > > There is no system component or interface that is known as "the main > console". What? > > here's my error > > > > Initial rc.alpha initialization:. > > rc.alpha configuring syscons: blank_time/etc/rc.alpha: cannot open > > /dev/ttyv0 : > > no such device or address > > mousedmoused: cannot open /dev/consolectl: Device not configure > > /etc/rc.alpha: cannot open /dev/ttyv0: no such device or address > > You have configured the screen saver and mouse daemon, but you don't have > a keyboard attached, or are otherwise using a serial console. There is both a keyboard and a mouse connected and, in this configuration the Alpha runs VMS quite happily. > > > This is where it stops. But can I get the serial terminal up with a login > > prompt. > > You still haven't got the console set up properly, or have otherwise > botched your keyboard or video. A common mistake is to swap the keyboard > and mouse connectors around. No - they are the right way round at least according to VMS and the little symbols on the back that I need glasses to see. We really have tried a large number of times to get this going with the same results. Initially, I (and Max) used the V3.2 CDs. I tried (and now Max) is trying to use 'current'. The problem with the console (non-serial) stopping working at the 'screen type' question persists. We haven't managed to get 'current' onto the winchester yet - so who knows what will happen then. Ray Newman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 5: 5:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from cr734636-a.flfrd1.on.wave.home.com (cr734636-a.flfrd1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.171.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D969114D80 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:05:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rajivd@home.com) Received: from cr734636a ([192.168.0.2]) by cr734636-a.flfrd1.on.wave.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA05289 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:04:28 -0500 Message-ID: <014b01bf3b33$8f6e3ac0$0200a8c0@flfrd1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Rajiv Dighe" To: Subject: Any hope for Jensens? Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:05:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will they ever be supported? I have one & I am willing to put in an effort to help port FreeBSD over. I am currently running RedHAt on it & would rather be happy with FreeBSD or NetBSD. Regards, Rajiv To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 8: 1: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1BC14CE8 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:01:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA14935; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:01:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911301601.IAA14935@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: "Rajiv Dighe" Cc: Alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Any hope for Jensens? Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:01:01 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:05:21 -0500 "Rajiv Dighe" wrote: > Will they ever be supported? I have one & I am willing to put in an effort > to help port FreeBSD over. I am currently running RedHAt on it & would > rather be happy with FreeBSD or NetBSD. Ross Harvey has one, and it's on his list to do for NetBSD right after he gets the Alpha SMP support committed to NetBSD. (Right Ross? :-) -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 8:13:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from zel459.zel.kfa-juelich.de (zel459.zel.kfa-juelich.de [134.94.234.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FBC15926 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:13:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drochner@zel459.zel.kfa-juelich.de) Received: from localhost by zel459.zel.kfa-juelich.de (8.8.8/1.1.19.2/04Nov98-0333PM) id RAA0000021847; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:13:19 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199911301613.RAA0000021847@zel459.zel.kfa-juelich.de> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 From: Matthias Drochner To: Jason Thorpe Cc: Rajiv Dighe , Alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Any hope for Jensens? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:01:01 PST." <199911301601.IAA14935@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Reply-To: M.Drochner@fz-juelich.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:13:19 +0100 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org thorpej@nas.nasa.gov said: > Ross Harvey has one, and it's on his list to do for NetBSD right after > he gets the Alpha SMP support committed to NetBSD. And what about the Sable? best regards Matthias To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 8:23:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEC915805 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA15447; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:23:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911301623.IAA15447@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: M.Drochner@fz-juelich.de Cc: Rajiv Dighe , Alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Any hope for Jensens? Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:23:24 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:13:19 +0100 Matthias Drochner wrote: > thorpej@nas.nasa.gov said: > > Ross Harvey has one, and it's on his list to do for NetBSD right after > > he gets the Alpha SMP support committed to NetBSD. > > And what about the Sable? I'm going to try and work on the Sable code some more today. I'm -><- this close to having something ready to test. -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 11: 2:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F74914DDE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:02:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 48134 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Nov 1999 19:02:31 -0000 Date: 30 Nov 1999 11:02:31 -0800 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:02:31 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: [anderson@metrolink.com: Re: FreeBSD Motif for Alpha] Message-ID: <19991130110231.A48021@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, I'm talking with the folks at MetroLink about possibly getting Motif for FreeBSD/AXP finished as a product. They have an Alpha they're thinking about using for production but they're not sure if we run on it. I'm relativly clueeless about Alpha hardware. Can someone tell me if we run on the machine detailed below or if I need more info to determine this? Thanks! -Bill ----- Forwarded message from Stuart Anderson ----- Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:13:25 -0500 (EST) From: Stuart Anderson To: Bill Swingle Subject: Re: FreeBSD Motif for Alpha On 24 Nov 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > Most likely, but we'll need to know the real model number and if it has > real SRM console on the machine. It boots using Milo, so I think that means it is set up for ARC. Does this tell you enough? $ cat /proc/cpuinfo cpu : Alpha cpu model : EV4 cpu variation : 0 cpu revision : 0 cpu serial number : Linux_is_Great! system type : EB64+ system variation : 0 system revision : 0 system serial number : MILO-0000 cycle frequency [Hz] : 275000000 timer frequency [Hz] : 1024.00 page size [bytes] : 8192 phys. address bits : 34 max. addr. space # : 63 BogoMIPS : 271.58 kernel unaligned acc : 0 (pc=0,va=0) user unaligned acc : 0 (pc=0,va=0) platform string : N/A Stuart Stuart R. Anderson anderson@metrolink.com Metro Link Incorporated South Carolina Office 4711 North Powerline Road 129 Secret Cove Drive Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33309 Lexington, SC 29072 voice: 954.938.0283 voice: 803.951.3630 fax: 954.938.1982 SkyTel: 800.405.3401 http://www.metrolink.com/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- -=| --- B i l l S w i n g l e --- http://www.dub.net/ -=| unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| Different all twisty a of in maze are you, passages little To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 11:16:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from sivka.rdy.com (unknown [207.21.31.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EFD159D8 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:16:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@sivka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by sivka.rdy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA70253 for alpha@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:16:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima) Message-Id: <199911301916.LAA70253@sivka.rdy.com> Subject: arc4random && read_random To: alpha@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:16:17 -0800 (PST) Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@rdy.com From: dima@rdy.com (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey guys! Is anybody going to do something about Subj.? Recent "random pids" change broke kernel on alpha. I guess, quick and dirty hack world be to add arc4random.c and write a dummy version of read_random() until somebody will actually merge i386 stuff to alpha. -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 11:19: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from opus.cirr.com (opus.cirr.com [192.67.63.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3224F159D8 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric@cirr.com) Received: from cirr.com (IDENT:eric@egsner.cirr.com [192.67.63.1]) by opus.cirr.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA09563; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:18:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911301918.NAA09563@opus.cirr.com> From: eric@cirr.com (Eric Schnoebelen) To: Bill Swingle Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [anderson@metrolink.com: Re: FreeBSD Motif for Alpha] In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:02:31 PST." <19991130110231.A48021@dub.net> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:18:39 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Swingle writes: - I'm talking with the folks at MetroLink about possibly getting Motif for - FreeBSD/AXP finished as a product. Software2Go, LLC (http://www.apps2go.com) already has Motif 2.1 available for FreeBSD/AXP.. - They have an Alpha they're thinking - about using for production but they're not sure if we run on it. I'm - relativly clueeless about Alpha hardware. Can someone tell me if we run - on the machine detailed below or if I need more info to determine this? [snip] - $ cat /proc/cpuinfo - system type : EB64+ The EB64+ (aka, AlphaPC64) will run FreeBSD/AXP. However, they/you will need to purchase and install SRM for the board, and install a Symbios 53c810 SCSI host adapter to have a boot-able SCSI system. SRM for the EB64* systems are found on the Digital _Alpha EBSDK and Firmware Upgrade Kit_ (part number QR-21B02-03). This can be purchased from DEC Direct for about $75 and shipping and handling [Disclaimer: I do have an interest in Software2Go, LLC, as one of the principles.] -- Eric Schnoebelen eric@cirr.com http://www.cirr.com Shouldn't Windows be called Eunuchs? After all, it has all the appearances and none of the functionality... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 11:19:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from sivka.rdy.com (unknown [207.21.31.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727F314D35 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:19:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@sivka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by sivka.rdy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA70268; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:19:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima) Message-Id: <199911301919.LAA70268@sivka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: [anderson@metrolink.com: Re: FreeBSD Motif for Alpha] In-Reply-To: <19991130110231.A48021@dub.net> from Bill Swingle at "Nov 30, 1999 11:02:31 am" To: Bill Swingle Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:19:08 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@rdy.com From: dima@rdy.com (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Swingle writes: > Hello all, > > I'm talking with the folks at MetroLink about possibly getting Motif for > FreeBSD/AXP finished as a product. They have an Alpha they're thinking > about using for production but they're not sure if we run on it. I'm > relativly clueeless about Alpha hardware. Can someone tell me if we run > on the machine detailed below or if I need more info to determine this? It's definitely not gonna work on a CPU with such a serial number :-) > > Thanks! > > -Bill > > ----- Forwarded message from Stuart Anderson ----- > > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:13:25 -0500 (EST) > From: Stuart Anderson > To: Bill Swingle > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Motif for Alpha > > On 24 Nov 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > > > Most likely, but we'll need to know the real model number and if it has > > real SRM console on the machine. > > It boots using Milo, so I think that means it is set up for ARC. > > Does this tell you enough? > > $ cat /proc/cpuinfo > cpu : Alpha > cpu model : EV4 > cpu variation : 0 > cpu revision : 0 > cpu serial number : Linux_is_Great! > system type : EB64+ > system variation : 0 > system revision : 0 > system serial number : MILO-0000 > cycle frequency [Hz] : 275000000 > timer frequency [Hz] : 1024.00 > page size [bytes] : 8192 > phys. address bits : 34 > max. addr. space # : 63 > BogoMIPS : 271.58 > kernel unaligned acc : 0 (pc=0,va=0) > user unaligned acc : 0 (pc=0,va=0) > platform string : N/A > > > > Stuart > > Stuart R. Anderson anderson@metrolink.com > > Metro Link Incorporated South Carolina Office > 4711 North Powerline Road 129 Secret Cove Drive > Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33309 Lexington, SC 29072 > voice: 954.938.0283 voice: 803.951.3630 > fax: 954.938.1982 SkyTel: 800.405.3401 > http://www.metrolink.com/ > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > -=| --- B i l l S w i n g l e --- http://www.dub.net/ > -=| unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com > -=| Different all twisty a of in maze are you, passages little > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 11:48:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from sstar.com (sstar.com [209.102.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B20159F3 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:48:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from king@sstar.com) Received: from JKING ([134.132.75.164]) by sstar.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.52) id 5289100; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:48:48 -0600 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991130134545.00a43780@mail.sstar.com> X-Sender: king@mail.sstar.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:48:48 -0600 To: dima@rdy.com, alpha@freebsd.org From: Jim King Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random In-Reply-To: <199911301916.LAA70253@sivka.rdy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:16 AM 11/30/1999 -0800, Dima Ruban wrote: >Hey guys! > >Is anybody going to do something about Subj.? Recent "random pids" change >broke kernel on alpha. >I guess, quick and dirty hack world be to add arc4random.c and write a >dummy version of read_random() until somebody will actually merge >i386 stuff to alpha. > >-- dima I hacked around the problem by adding arc4random.c to sys/alpha/conf/files.alpha, and commenting out the call to read_random() in arc4random.c (replacing it with "r = 0;" to initialize the return value). I agree that implementing read_random for Alpha - even a dummy version - would be a better way to do it (but my way was quicker :-). Jim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 11:50:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 2A8D114D0F; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:50:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: king@sstar.com Cc: dima@rdy.com, alpha@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19991130134545.00a43780@mail.sstar.com> (message from Jim King on Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:48:48 -0600) Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random Message-Id: <19991130195058.2A8D114D0F@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:50:58 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I hacked around the problem by adding arc4random.c to > sys/alpha/conf/files.alpha, and commenting out the call to read_random() in > arc4random.c (replacing it with "r = 0;" to initialize the return value). > > I agree that implementing read_random for Alpha - even a dummy version - > would be a better way to do it (but my way was quicker :-). > > Jim #ifdef __alpha__ worked for me jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 11:55:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from sivka.rdy.com (unknown [207.21.31.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8254314C13; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@sivka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by sivka.rdy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA70456; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima) Message-Id: <199911301955.LAA70456@sivka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random In-Reply-To: <19991130195058.2A8D114D0F@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Nov 30, 1999 11:50:58 am" To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:55:43 -0800 (PST) Cc: king@sstar.com, dima@rdy.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@rdy.com From: dima@rdy.com (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > > > > I hacked around the problem by adding arc4random.c to > > sys/alpha/conf/files.alpha, and commenting out the call to read_random() in > > arc4random.c (replacing it with "r = 0;" to initialize the return value). > > > > I agree that implementing read_random for Alpha - even a dummy version - > > would be a better way to do it (but my way was quicker :-). > > > > Jim > > #ifdef __alpha__ > > worked for me Right, but I don't think that general population will be happy with this. I'd rather hack _alpha-specific_ code than code that's common for all architectures. > > jmb > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 11:59:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 8C56D14CE2; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:58:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: dima@rdy.com Cc: king@sstar.com, dima@rdy.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199911301955.LAA70456@sivka.rdy.com> (dima@rdy.com) Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random Message-Id: <19991130195804.8C56D14CE2@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:58:04 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > #ifdef __alpha__ > > > > worked for me > > Right, but I don't think that general population will be happy with this. > I'd rather hack _alpha-specific_ code than code that's common for all > architectures. > cool! go for it! stubbing it out sounds like a great first step. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 12:19:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from eta.ghs.com (eta.ghs.com [208.8.104.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7A114D1C for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:19:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ross@ghs.com) Received: [from random.teraflop.com (random.teraflop.com [192.67.158.207]) by eta.ghs.com (eta-antispam 0.2) with ESMTP id MAA16680; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:19:28 -0800 (PST)] Received: (from ross@localhost) by random.teraflop.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16473; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:19:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:19:28 -0800 (PST) From: Ross Harvey Message-Id: <199911302019.MAA16473@random.teraflop.com> To: rajivd@home.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Any hope for Jensens? Cc: Alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From port-alpha-owner@netbsd.org Tue Nov 30 08:02:17 1999 > To: "Rajiv Dighe" > Cc: Alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org > Subject: Re: Any hope for Jensens? > From: Jason Thorpe > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:01:01 -0800 > > On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:05:21 -0500 > "Rajiv Dighe" wrote: > > > Will they ever be supported? I have one & I am willing to put in an effort > > to help port FreeBSD over. I am currently running RedHAt on it & would > > rather be happy with FreeBSD or NetBSD. > > Ross Harvey has one, and it's on his list to do for NetBSD right after he > gets the Alpha SMP support committed to NetBSD. > > (Right Ross? :-) Sigh. :-( "RSN". :-) I have always felt that the earth rotates too quickly. I think if it were to slow down, I could get more done. While it's true that there would be fewer days, and the same number of hours, all the daily things and commutes would in fact take up a smaller percentage of your time, and there would be longer unbroken periods in which to concentrate. :-) :-) (And yah, I know about the 28/6 people.) Ross To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 12:22:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from sivka.rdy.com (unknown [207.21.31.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F4315AD9; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@sivka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by sivka.rdy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA70620; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:21:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima) Message-Id: <199911302021.MAA70620@sivka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random In-Reply-To: <19991130195804.8C56D14CE2@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Nov 30, 1999 11:58:04 am" To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:21:59 -0800 (PST) Cc: dima@rdy.com, king@sstar.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@rdy.com From: dima@rdy.com (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > > > > > > #ifdef __alpha__ > > > > > > worked for me > > > > Right, but I don't think that general population will be happy with this. > > I'd rather hack _alpha-specific_ code than code that's common for all > > architectures. > > > > cool! go for it! stubbing it out sounds like a great first > step. Okay, I've fixed files.alpha stuff. Now we need to decide what next. Either dummy version of read_random() or something else. (I'm gonna take a look at OpenBSD's srcs) > > jmb > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 12:30:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 7E30714D80; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:30:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: dima@rdy.com Cc: dima@rdy.com, king@sstar.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199911302021.MAA70620@sivka.rdy.com> (dima@rdy.com) Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random Message-Id: <19991130203053.7E30714D80@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:30:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Okay, I've fixed files.alpha stuff. Now we need to decide what next. Either > dummy version of read_random() or something else. > (I'm gonna take a look at OpenBSD's srcs) sounds good, in teh meantime you could dummy out read_random() to un-break buildworld jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 13: 4:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from sivka.rdy.com (unknown [207.21.31.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AC614DE0; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@sivka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by sivka.rdy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA70777; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima) Message-Id: <199911302104.NAA70777@sivka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random In-Reply-To: <19991130203053.7E30714D80@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Nov 30, 1999 12:30:53 pm" To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) Cc: dima@rdy.com, king@sstar.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@rdy.com From: dima@rdy.com (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > > > > Okay, I've fixed files.alpha stuff. Now we need to decide what next. Either > > dummy version of read_random() or something else. > > (I'm gonna take a look at OpenBSD's srcs) > > sounds good, in teh meantime you could > dummy out read_random() to un-break buildworld Okay, here's quick hack. If anybody has better ideas - speak up. Otherwise I'm going to commit it withing a next hour or so. alpha# diff Makefile.alpha.ORIG Makefile.alpha 88c88 < setdef1.o hack.So --- > setdef1.o hack.So read_random_dummy.o 141a142,146 > > read_random_dummy.o: Makefile > echo "int read_random() { return 0; }" > read_random_dummy.c > ${CC} -c -O read_random_dummy.c > rm -f read_random_dummy.c alpha# > > jmb > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 14:42:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62BE314C99; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:42:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA75288; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:48:09 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:48:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Doug Rabson To: Dima Ruban Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , king@sstar.com, alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random In-Reply-To: <199911301955.LAA70456@sivka.rdy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Dima Ruban wrote: > Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > > > > > > I hacked around the problem by adding arc4random.c to > > > sys/alpha/conf/files.alpha, and commenting out the call to read_random() in > > > arc4random.c (replacing it with "r = 0;" to initialize the return value). > > > > > > I agree that implementing read_random for Alpha - even a dummy version - > > > would be a better way to do it (but my way was quicker :-). > > > > > > Jim > > > > #ifdef __alpha__ > > > > worked for me > > Right, but I don't think that general population will be happy with this. > I'd rather hack _alpha-specific_ code than code that's common for all > architectures. Ideally, someone would re-work the /dev/random driver so that it wasn't x86 specific. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 442 9037 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 14:44:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420EF157FF; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:42:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA75306; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:49:11 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:49:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Doug Rabson To: Dima Ruban Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , king@sstar.com, alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random In-Reply-To: <199911302104.NAA70777@sivka.rdy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Dima Ruban wrote: > Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > > > > > > Okay, I've fixed files.alpha stuff. Now we need to decide what next. Either > > > dummy version of read_random() or something else. > > > (I'm gonna take a look at OpenBSD's srcs) > > > > sounds good, in teh meantime you could > > dummy out read_random() to un-break buildworld > > Okay, here's quick hack. If anybody has better ideas - speak up. Otherwise > I'm going to commit it withing a next hour or so. No need for Makefile hacks. Just add a dummy read_random() to machdep.c until you finish porting the real random driver... -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 442 9037 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 15:29:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from sivka.rdy.com (unknown [207.21.31.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403FE15862; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:29:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@sivka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by sivka.rdy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA71181; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:28:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima) Message-Id: <199911302328.PAA71181@sivka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: arc4random && read_random In-Reply-To: from Doug Rabson at "Nov 30, 1999 10:49:11 pm" To: Doug Rabson Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:28:28 -0800 (PST) Cc: Dima Ruban , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , king@sstar.com, alpha@freebsd.org Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@rdy.com From: dima@rdy.com (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Rabson writes: > On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Dima Ruban wrote: > > > Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > > > > > > > > Okay, I've fixed files.alpha stuff. Now we need to decide what next. Either > > > > dummy version of read_random() or something else. > > > > (I'm gonna take a look at OpenBSD's srcs) > > > > > > sounds good, in teh meantime you could > > > dummy out read_random() to un-break buildworld > > > > Okay, here's quick hack. If anybody has better ideas - speak up. Otherwise > > I'm going to commit it withing a next hour or so. > > No need for Makefile hacks. Just add a dummy read_random() to machdep.c > until you finish porting the real random driver... Okay. (I didn't volunteer to port random driver, did I, or is it too late? :-) I'll look into this stuff, but I'm not terribly good with alpha hardware, so I can't promise anything ... > > -- > Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com > Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 442 9037 > > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 16:36:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41AB8159EE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:36:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu) Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (x130-65-210-24.sjsu.edu [130.65.210.24]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03730 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:35:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38446D4E.BDB4959B@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:35:26 -0800 From: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: cdrom Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org is the FreeBSD cdrom bootable? and if not, WHY not? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 16:41:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (mass.cdrom.com [204.216.28.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F327159CC for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:41:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03542; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:42:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199912010042.QAA03542@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: manning@uclink4.berkeley.edu Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cdrom In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:35:26 PST." <38446D4E.BDB4959B@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:42:07 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > is the FreeBSD cdrom bootable? and if not, WHY not? Only on i386. As for "why not", mostly because I spend too much time answering these messages and not enough time actually working on the issue. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Nov 30 17:35:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6876315B0D for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:35:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@d60-025.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.25]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27261; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:35:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA83393; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:35:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:35:30 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Eric Schnoebelen Subject: Re: [anderson@metrolink.com: Re: FreeBSD Motif for Alpha] Message-ID: <19991130173530.N54056@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <19991130110231.A48021@dub.net> <199911301918.NAA09563@opus.cirr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <199911301918.NAA09563@opus.cirr.com>; from eric@cirr.com on Tue, Nov 30, 1999 at 01:18:39PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 30, 1999 at 01:18:39PM -0600, Eric Schnoebelen wrote: > > [Disclaimer: I do have an interest in Software2Go, LLC, as one > of the principles.] Which I might add has Motif 2.1.20 for FreeBSD/Alpha right now! Their prices are below the competition. See http://www.apps2go.com/ -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Dec 1 13:27:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DAE14DD3 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA11785; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA63888; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:26:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:26:19 -0500 (EST) To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Cc: anderson@cs.duke.edu Subject: mount & friends broken in -current! X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14405.37232.135805.78500@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you build a kernel today, watch out! The latest changes to mount.h have broken mount & friends on alpha. Or at least their backwards/forwards compatability: pid 11 (fsck), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped) Segmentation fault - core dumped Unknown error in reboot Enter full pathname of shell or RETURN for /bin/sh: The following patch fixes it: Index: mount.h =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/sys/mount.h,v retrieving revision 1.85 diff -u -c -r1.85 mount.h cvs diff: conflicting specifications of output style *** mount.h 1999/12/01 02:09:19 1.85 --- mount.h 1999/12/01 21:07:37 *************** *** 67,73 **** --- 67,78 ---- */ #define MFSNAMELEN 16 /* length of fs type name, including null */ + #ifdef __i386__ #define MNAMELEN 80 /* length of buffer for returned name */ + #endif + #ifdef __alpha__ + #define MNAMELEN 72 /* length of buffer for returned name */ + #endif struct statfs { long f_spare2; /* placeholder */ Cheers, Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Dec 1 16:11: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B2615134 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@d60-025.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.25]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA32825 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:10:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA87715 for freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:10:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:10:53 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mount & friends broken in -current! Message-ID: <19991201161053.B84520@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <14405.37232.135805.78500@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <14405.37232.135805.78500@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu>; from gallatin@cs.duke.edu on Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 04:26:19PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If you build a kernel today, watch out! The latest changes to mount.h > have broken mount & friends on alpha. Or at least their > backwards/forwards compatability: I'm not having those problems, but is anybody else experiencing the situation where on every boot one gets: WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck on every reboot? I'm getting it on both my -CURRENT Alpha's. Both kernels are built from Nov 30th sources, and have had /dev remade such that all disk devices are character devices. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Dec 1 17:28:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CB214CCB for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA16953; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:27:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA65014; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:26:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:26:49 -0500 (EST) To: obrien@NUXI.com Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount & friends broken in -current! In-Reply-To: <19991201161053.B84520@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <14405.37232.135805.78500@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <19991201161053.B84520@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14405.51797.652995.942415@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David O'Brien writes: > > If you build a kernel today, watch out! The latest changes to mount.h > > have broken mount & friends on alpha. Or at least their > > backwards/forwards compatability: > > I'm not having those problems, but is anybody else experiencing the > situation where on every boot one gets: > > WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck > > on every reboot? I'm getting it on both my -CURRENT Alpha's. Both > kernels are built from Nov 30th sources, and have had /dev remade such > that all disk devices are character devices. > This is on *every* reboot? Is there a chance / is not really clean? Can you do a mount -uf / ? Using a kernel built from today's sources + my mount fix, I can reboot cleanly. I haven't crashed since I remade my /dev, so I'm not sure what will happen if / is dirty... Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Dec 1 18:31:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D5C14E2E for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:31:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA33356; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:29:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:29:01 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount & friends broken in -current! Message-ID: <19991201182901.F29334@relay.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <14405.37232.135805.78500@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <19991201161053.B84520@dragon.nuxi.com> <14405.51797.652995.942415@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <14405.51797.652995.942415@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > I'm not having those problems, but is anybody else experiencing the > > situation where on every boot one gets: > > > > WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck > > This is on *every* reboot? Is there a chance / is not really clean? > Can you do a mount -uf / ? Yep, *every* reboot. When it occurs every thing but / is already mounted. I can manually do a ``fsck /'' and that works. But on the next reboot it does not help. Automatic reboot in progress... /dev/da0a: 6439 files, 127588 used, 128591 free (407 frags, 16023 blocks, 0.2% fragmentation) /dev/da1a: FILESYSTEM CLEAN; SKIPPING CHECKS /dev/da1a: clean, 226285 free (6949 frags, 27417 blocks, 0.5% fragmentation) /dev/da1e: FILESYSTEM CLEAN; SKIPPING CHECKS /dev/da1e: clean, 27739 free (18379 frags, 1170 blocks, 3.9% fragmentation) /dev/da2f: FILESYSTEM CLEAN; SKIPPING CHECKS /dev/da2f: clean, 510692 free (20 frags, 63834 blocks, 0.0% fragmentation) WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck mount: Operation not permitted Mounting /etc/fstab filesystems failed, startup aborted Enter full pathname of shell or RETURN for /bin/sh: Fine, lets go thru the drill: # mount -u / WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck mount: Operation not permitted # fsck / ** /dev/da0a ** Last Mounted on / ** Root file system ** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes ** Phase 2 - Check Pathnames ** Phase 3 - Check Connectivity ** Phase 4 - Check Reference Counts ** Phase 5 - Check Cyl groups 6439 files, 127588 used, 128591 free (407 frags, 16023 blocks, 0.2% fragmentation) ***** FILE SYSTEM MARKED CLEAN ***** # mount /dev/da0a on / (ufs, local, read-only, writes: sync 2 async 0, reads: sync 193 async 2) /dev/da1a on /usr (ufs, local, writes: sync 2 async 0, reads: sync 3 async 0) /dev/da1e on /usr/obj (ufs, local, noatime, soft-updates, writes: sync 2 async 0, reads: sync 15 async 0) procfs on /proc (procfs, local) mfs:27 on /tmp (mfs, asynchronous, local) /dev/da2f on /2 (ufs, asynchronous, local, noatime, writes: sync 2 async 0) # mount -u / # mount /dev/da0a on / (ufs, local, writes: sync 4 async 0, reads: sync 203 async 2) /dev/da1a on /usr (ufs, local, writes: sync 2 async 0, reads: sync 3 async 0) /dev/da1e on /usr/obj (ufs, local, noatime, soft-updates, writes: sync 2 async 0, reads: sync 15 async 0) procfs on /proc (procfs, local) mfs:27 on /tmp (mfs, asynchronous, local) /dev/da2f on /2 (ufs, asynchronous, local, noatime, writes: sync 2 async 0) # cd /dev # ls -l da0a da1a da1e da2f crw-r----- 1 root operator 13, 0 Dec 1 19:57 da0a crw-r----- 1 root operator 13, 8 Dec 1 19:57 da1a crw-r----- 1 root operator 13, 12 Dec 1 19:57 da1e crw-r----- 1 root operator 13, 21 Dec 1 19:57 da2f # reboot syncing disks... 1 1 done Rebooting... halted CPU 0 halt code = 5 HALT instruction executed PC = fffffc00004a284c CPU 0 booting Repeat until tired. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Dec 1 18:38:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from toetag.com (toetag.com [63.192.202.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9BB14E2E for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:38:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@toetag.com) Received: from toetag.com (tom@unhooked.net [63.192.202.44]) by toetag.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA22973 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:37:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912020237.SAA22973@toetag.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mount & friends broken in -current! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Dec 1999 18:29:01 PST." <19991201182901.F29334@relay.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 18:37:38 -0800 From: "Tom" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 18:29:01 PST, "David O'Brien" writes: >On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Andrew Gallatin wrote: >> > I'm not having those problems, but is anybody else experiencing the >> > situation where on every boot one gets: >> > >> > WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck >> >> This is on *every* reboot? Is there a chance / is not really clean? >> Can you do a mount -uf / ? > >Yep, *every* reboot. When it occurs every thing but / is already >mounted. I can manually do a ``fsck /'' and that works. But on the next >reboot it does not help. This happened to me 2 days ago when I cvsuped my x86 box. Reboot and the same thing all over again, fsck / 3 or 4 times and it still wouldn't come out of single user mode. I powered down the box and it hasn't happened since. Maybe you host adaptor has a wedgie? -- tom@unhooked.net ICQ - 16163541 Spam: the other white meat. Get UnHOOKeD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Dec 1 18:50: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0EF414FA8 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:50:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA18374; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA65267; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:47:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:47:23 -0500 (EST) To: obrien@NUXI.com Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount & friends broken in -current! In-Reply-To: <19991201182901.F29334@relay.nuxi.com> References: <14405.37232.135805.78500@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <19991201161053.B84520@dragon.nuxi.com> <14405.51797.652995.942415@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <19991201182901.F29334@relay.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14405.56663.383906.364548@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David O'Brien writes: > On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > > I'm not having those problems, but is anybody else experiencing the > > > situation where on every boot one gets: > > > > > > WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck > > > > This is on *every* reboot? Is there a chance / is not really clean? > > Can you do a mount -uf / ? > > Yep, *every* reboot. When it occurs every thing but / is already > mounted. I can manually do a ``fsck /'' and that works. But on the next > reboot it does not help. > Hmm.. I think I'll bow out at this point. All I can say is that it seems damned strange that fsck -p is not marking / clean when it finishes, but fsck / is. That's not happening here. my fsck is from over the weekend. Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Dec 2 2:34: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF16614E51 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:34:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05161; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:40:06 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:40:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Doug Rabson To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: obrien@NUXI.com, freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mount & friends broken in -current! In-Reply-To: <14405.56663.383906.364548@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > David O'Brien writes: > > On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > > > I'm not having those problems, but is anybody else experiencing the > > > > situation where on every boot one gets: > > > > > > > > WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck > > > > > > This is on *every* reboot? Is there a chance / is not really clean? > > > Can you do a mount -uf / ? > > > > Yep, *every* reboot. When it occurs every thing but / is already > > mounted. I can manually do a ``fsck /'' and that works. But on the next > > reboot it does not help. > > > > Hmm.. I think I'll bow out at this point. All I can say is that it > seems damned strange that fsck -p is not marking / clean when it > finishes, but fsck / is. That's not happening here. my fsck is from > over the weekend. I have a feeling that this was a side effect from PHK's most recent block device changes. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 442 9037 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Dec 2 7:28:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC77814BF6 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:28:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@d60-025.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.25]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07145 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:27:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id HAA76737 for freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:27:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:27:27 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mount & friends broken in -current! Message-ID: <19991202072727.A76701@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <14405.56663.383906.364548@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from dfr@nlsystems.com on Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 10:40:05AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 10:40:05AM +0000, Doug Rabson wrote: > > Hmm.. I think I'll bow out at this point. All I can say is that it > > seems damned strange that fsck -p is not marking / clean when it > > finishes, but fsck / is. That's not happening here. my fsck is from > > over the weekend. > > I have a feeling that this was a side effect from PHK's most recent block > device changes. Some emailed me directly saying they had the same problem on their i386 box. After many, many reboots, they were frustrated and just turned the machine off 100%. The next time they turned it on, all worked normally. This worked for home Alpha's. The other one is remote, so I have not had a chance to do the same for that one. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Dec 2 8:59:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from smtp2.andrew.cmu.edu (SMTP2.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A22B14D07 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 08:59:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nmh@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: from unix6.andrew.cmu.edu (UNIX6.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.15.10]) by smtp2.andrew.cmu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA23854 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:59:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:59:18 -0500 (EST) From: Noah Hafner To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: alpha compatibily information Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I am trying to find some information on compatibility between alpha based machines and FreeBSD. I have checked various places including the freebsd.misc newsgroup (just for other postings about it), the website, and a bunch of search engines. Could you please inform me as to where I might find the information? Thank you, Noah Hafner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Dec 2 9: 7:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E47514C92 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA04400; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA67422; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:05:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:05:27 -0500 (EST) To: Noah Hafner Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: alpha compatibily information In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14406.42557.660648.299651@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Noah Hafner writes: > Hi, > I am trying to find some information on compatibility between alpha based > machines and FreeBSD. I have checked various places including the > freebsd.misc newsgroup (just for other postings about it), the website, > and a bunch of search engines. Could you please inform me as to where I > might find the information? Take a look at INSTALL.TXT in the distrobution you are planning on installing. Eg: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/alpha/4.0-19991111-CURRENT/INSTALL.TXT .... FreeBSD/alpha supports the following alpha platforms: UDB, Multia, AXPpci33, Noname EB164, PC164, PC164LX, PC164SX EB64+, Aspen Alpine, etc. AlphaStation 200, 250, 255, 400 AlphaStation 500, 600 Digital Personal Workstation 433, 500, 600 Compaq Professional Workstation XP900, XP1000, AlphaServer DS10 DEC3000/300 family (netboot only) DEC3000/[4-9]00 family (netboot only) .... The above list should include AlphaServer DS20 (single CPU only) 4.0-current supports much more hardware than 3-stable. Also, support was recently added for AlphaServer 1000 systems. This support has not yet been integrated into any snapshot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Dec 2 23:18:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C90914D6E; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:18:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04898; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:19:50 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:19:50 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Wilko Bulte Cc: gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strange panic on Alpha, SCSI disk *type* related In-Reply-To: <199911251900.UAA01014@yedi.iaf.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As Matthew Jacob wrote ... > > Hi Matt, > > Ever since the firmware is back in the driver the machine just works > like a charm. Are you still interested in digging into my ancient > isp f/w ;-) ? I'm happy with things the way they are. > > Wilko > Sorry, I wuz away and now just back. If you're happy then we'll let it go. I'm backporting the -current stuff into RELENG_3 tonite. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 7:16:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from opus.cirr.com (opus.cirr.com [192.67.63.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3B214BC9 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:16:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric@cirr.com) Received: from cirr.com (IDENT:eric@egsner.cirr.com [192.67.63.1]) by opus.cirr.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA28752; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:16:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912031516.JAA28752@opus.cirr.com> To: port-alpha@netbsd.org, freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: SRM firmware now available for AlphaPC64 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:16:19 -0600 From: Eric Schnoebelen Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I received the following message from Compaq yesterday. They have made the SRM firmware for the PC64 available without requiring the purchase of the Firmware Developer's kit. In checking the referenced directory, it _appears_ to be a new build, although I haven't had a chance to test it.. There is also new firmware for the AphaPC164, the AlphaPC164LX and the AlphaPC164sx. My _guess_ is that Compaq has just released SRM console firmware for systems that previously shipped with only the ARC/AlphaBIOS NT firmware. ------- Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:31:48 -0500 Subject: RE: SRM firmware for AlphaPCI 64 eval board Hello, This email is to let you know the SRM .rom image is now available from the following area: http://ftp.digital.com/pub/Digital/Alpha/firmware/interim/pc64/ ------- End of Forwarded Message -- Eric Schnoebelen eric@cirr.com http://www.cirr.com "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 9: 4:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.netplex.com.au [202.12.86.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B75151F2 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:04:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AEF1CC8; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:04:12 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Doug Rabson Cc: Andrew Gallatin , obrien@NUXI.com, freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mount & friends broken in -current! In-Reply-To: Message from Doug Rabson of "Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:40:05 GMT." Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 01:04:12 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <19991203170412.A5AEF1CC8@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Rabson wrote: > On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > > > > David O'Brien writes: > > > On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > > > > I'm not having those problems, but is anybody else experiencing the > > > > > situation where on every boot one gets: > > > > > > > > > > WARNING: R/W mount of / denied. Filesystem is not clean - run fsck > > > > > > > > This is on *every* reboot? Is there a chance / is not really clean? > > > > Can you do a mount -uf / ? > > > > > > Yep, *every* reboot. When it occurs every thing but / is already > > > mounted. I can manually do a ``fsck /'' and that works. But on the nex t > > > reboot it does not help. > > > > > > > Hmm.. I think I'll bow out at this point. All I can say is that it > > seems damned strange that fsck -p is not marking / clean when it > > finishes, but fsck / is. That's not happening here. my fsck is from > > over the weekend. > > I have a feeling that this was a side effect from PHK's most recent block > device changes. No, it predates even those. I've had this on and off for 6 months on some of my machines. If phk has done anything, I strongly suspect he's merely just irritated some already-lurking bug. Last time I looked at it, it looked as though the MNT_RELOAD was getting lost or ignored or never issued. I'd like folks to try something for me.. When this happens next time and fsck reports the fs is 'clean' but mount says it's dirty, try a 'tunefs -n disable /' (which forces a MNT_RELOAD) and see if you can then mount it. It's fixed it for me in every case that I've seen so far. Anyway, it was sporadic. Sometimes it happened, sometimes it didn't. Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 13:21:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EB9314D25 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:21:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07192; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:21:28 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:21:28 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: alpha@freebsd.org, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:47:27 -0800 From: Richard Henderson Reply-To: axp-list@redhat.com To: "warp@xs4all.nl" Cc: axp-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS Resent-Date: 3 Dec 1999 21:15:44 -0000 Resent-From: axp-list@redhat.com Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; On Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 02:02:29PM +0100, warp@xs4all.nl wrote: > 1) Is anybody planning to make MILO work with NetBSD*; >From what I could tell from browsing the OpenBSD source, the only thing standing in the way of the BSDs booting off MILO is their reliance on SRM callbacks for printing to the console during the early boot process. And some bits that read the SRM environment variables to snag the kernel command line and such. It shouldn't be terribly hard to either implement the SRM callbacks in MILO or (conditionally) avoid them in the BSD kernel. The former would of course be more helpful. r~ -- To unsubscribe: send e-mail to axp-list-request@redhat.com with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Do not send it to axp-list@redhat.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 14:53:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from guild.net (guild.net [209.166.166.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9D214A16 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:53:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from isildur@guild.net) Received: from localhost (isildur@localhost) by guild.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA03240; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:52:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:52:32 -0500 (EST) From: Lord Isildur To: Matthew Jacob Cc: alpha@freebsd.org, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I consider SRM to be the way to go, and i think instead the convoluted hacks that things like MILO had to go through are the rsult of using the ARC/ALphaBIOS _instead_ of using SRM. Now that Compaq has released SRMs for so many more models and eliminated the need to buy the developer kit, i see no reason to consider ARC anymore _at all_. It was a cheap second best rigged up so that NT could work on Alphas, and I dont see why we need to try to cater on NT's inadequacies and start using ARC/AlphaBIOS or the workarounds to it like MILO. SRM is the 'high class' firmware, whatever, it is available and is superior to ARC/AB. BSD has used SRM since the beginning- why should we dilute that now, especially when some of the last arguments for it have lost their bite? just my $.02, isildur On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Matthew Jacob wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:47:27 -0800 > From: Richard Henderson > Reply-To: axp-list@redhat.com > To: "warp@xs4all.nl" > Cc: axp-list@redhat.com > Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS > Resent-Date: 3 Dec 1999 21:15:44 -0000 > Resent-From: axp-list@redhat.com > Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; > > On Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 02:02:29PM +0100, warp@xs4all.nl wrote: > > 1) Is anybody planning to make MILO work with NetBSD*; > > >From what I could tell from browsing the OpenBSD source, the only > thing standing in the way of the BSDs booting off MILO is their > reliance on SRM callbacks for printing to the console during the > early boot process. And some bits that read the SRM environment > variables to snag the kernel command line and such. > > It shouldn't be terribly hard to either implement the SRM callbacks > in MILO or (conditionally) avoid them in the BSD kernel. The former > would of course be more helpful. certainly, if anyone _needs_ to use BSD with MILO for some strange reason, it'd be better to modify MILO than BSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 14:54:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7486A14A16 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07478; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:55:45 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:55:45 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Lord Isildur Cc: alpha@freebsd.org, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I agreee. On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Lord Isildur wrote: > > I consider SRM to be the way to go, and i think instead the convoluted > hacks that things like MILO had to go through are the rsult of using the > ARC/ALphaBIOS _instead_ of using SRM. Now that Compaq has released SRMs > for so many more models and eliminated the need to buy the developer kit, > i see no reason to consider ARC anymore _at all_. It was a cheap second > best rigged up so that NT could work on Alphas, and I dont see why we need > to try to cater on NT's inadequacies and start using ARC/AlphaBIOS or the > workarounds to it like MILO. SRM is the 'high class' firmware, whatever, > it is available and is superior to ARC/AB. BSD has used SRM since the > beginning- why should we dilute that now, especially when some of the last > arguments for it have lost their bite? > > just my $.02, > isildur > > On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Matthew Jacob wrote: > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:47:27 -0800 > > From: Richard Henderson > > Reply-To: axp-list@redhat.com > > To: "warp@xs4all.nl" > > Cc: axp-list@redhat.com > > Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS > > Resent-Date: 3 Dec 1999 21:15:44 -0000 > > Resent-From: axp-list@redhat.com > > Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; > > > > On Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 02:02:29PM +0100, warp@xs4all.nl wrote: > > > 1) Is anybody planning to make MILO work with NetBSD*; > > > > >From what I could tell from browsing the OpenBSD source, the only > > thing standing in the way of the BSDs booting off MILO is their > > reliance on SRM callbacks for printing to the console during the > > early boot process. And some bits that read the SRM environment > > variables to snag the kernel command line and such. > > > > It shouldn't be terribly hard to either implement the SRM callbacks > > in MILO or (conditionally) avoid them in the BSD kernel. The former > > would of course be more helpful. > > certainly, if anyone _needs_ to use BSD with MILO for some strange reason, > it'd be better to modify MILO than BSD. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 15:21:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost.whirlpool.com (mailhost.whirlpool.com [158.52.254.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE83A152A2 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:21:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gillhaa@ghost.whirlpool.com) Received: (qmail 19662 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1999 23:21:23 -0000 Received: from ghost.whirlpool.com (158.52.19.3) by mailhost.whirlpool.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 1999 23:21:23 -0000 Received: (from gillhaa@localhost) by ghost.whirlpool.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17064; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:21:22 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Gillham Message-Id: <199912032321.SAA17064@ghost.whirlpool.com> Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: from Lord Isildur at "Dec 3, 99 05:52:32 pm" To: isildur@guild.net (Lord Isildur) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:21:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: mjacob@feral.com, alpha@freebsd.org, port-alpha@netbsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lord Isildur writes: > [...] > > certainly, if anyone _needs_ to use BSD with MILO for some strange reason, > it'd be better to modify MILO than BSD. Ok, stupid question.. Is it possible to build a 'boot' for NetBSD that can be loaded by MILO, and have this boot then load the kernel? Rather than hacking MILO to load the kernel directly, or hacking the kernel to be loadable directly? After all, isn't 'boot' responsible for reading in the kernel, and starting it? The differences between SRM devices and MILO devices should be hidden from the kernel. For the average Joe, using the ARC/AlphaBIOS menus to setup booting Linux and/or BSD, etc isn't so bad. Also, the ARC console can boot from some NCR controllers that the SRM can't, etc. Hmm, I wonder if the ARC firmware supports additional video cards also? -Andrew -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Gillham | This space left blank gillham@whirlpool.com | inadvertently. I speak for myself, not for my employer. | Contact the publisher. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 17:59:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03859152FC for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:59:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA14969; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA73706; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:58:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:58:24 -0500 (EST) To: Lord Isildur Cc: Matthew Jacob , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14408.29267.776501.133049@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lord Isildur writes: > > I consider SRM to be the way to go, and i think instead the convoluted > hacks that things like MILO had to go through are the rsult of using the > ARC/ALphaBIOS _instead_ of using SRM. Now that Compaq has released SRMs > for so many more models and eliminated the need to buy the developer kit, > i see no reason to consider ARC anymore _at all_. It was a cheap second The only problem with this argument is there are a few machines that nobody ever made SRM for. Like the XL266 and the 300XL. They don't trouble us because we don't have them. But we don't have them because they don't run BSD. And then there is the new UP1000 board which claims to have AlphaBios only & to support linux. (http://www.alpha-processor.com/products/up1000-board.asp) I think this might be just paperware, as I cannot find any mention of it anywhere except at Alpha Processor Inc's site. It sure would be nice if they just open-sourced SRM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 18:20: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from serpent.exodus.worst.com (adsl-209-233-26-189.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.233.26.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FDC14BFD for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cyber@serpent.exodus.worst.com) Received: from serpent.exodus.worst.com (cyber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by serpent.exodus.worst.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21384; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:29:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912040229.SAA21384@serpent.exodus.worst.com> To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: Lord Isildur , Matthew Jacob , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org From: Erik Berls Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Dec 1999 20:58:24 EST." <14408.29267.776501.133049@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:29:41 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Gallatin writes: ] ] The only problem with this argument is there are a few machines that ] nobody ever made SRM for. Like the XL266 and the 300XL. They don't ] trouble us because we don't have them. But we don't have them because ] they don't run BSD. ] Ive got one of those beasts.. AlphaXL 366.. Its been relegated to where I throw my keys and wallet at night. I'd really like to see it work. Anyone know where the "emergency" flash jumper is, i seemed to have nuked the firmware on it.. -=erik. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Dec 3 20: 4:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA42714F98 for ; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:04:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA29782; Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:01:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912040401.UAA29782@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: Lord Isildur , Matthew Jacob , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 20:01:44 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:58:24 -0500 (EST) Andrew Gallatin wrote: > The only problem with this argument is there are a few machines that > nobody ever made SRM for. Like the XL266 and the 300XL. They don't > trouble us because we don't have them. But we don't have them because > they don't run BSD. ...well, the XLs are slow, too :-) They're roughly equivalent to the AlphaStation 400; there's *some* chance that a 400 SRM might run on them. (Backup your ARC image and locate the failsafe jumper first, though :-) > And then there is the new UP1000 board which claims to have AlphaBios > only & to support linux. > (http://www.alpha-processor.com/products/up1000-board.asp) > I think this might be just paperware, as I cannot find any mention of it > anywhere except at Alpha Processor Inc's site. ...and the Ruffian board (164UX is what Samsung called it). > It sure would be nice if they just open-sourced SRM. No kidding. However, if you then start willy-nilly porting SRM to these currently non-SRM platforms, you have an interesting problem; who gives out systype numbers? -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 0:19:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles530.castles.com [208.214.165.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B761508B for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:19:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00599; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199912040820.AAA00599@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: Lord Isildur , Matthew Jacob , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Dec 1999 20:58:24 EST." <14408.29267.776501.133049@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 00:20:15 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Lord Isildur writes: > > > > I consider SRM to be the way to go, and i think instead the convoluted > > hacks that things like MILO had to go through are the rsult of using the > > ARC/ALphaBIOS _instead_ of using SRM. Now that Compaq has released SRMs > > for so many more models and eliminated the need to buy the developer kit, > > i see no reason to consider ARC anymore _at all_. It was a cheap second > > The only problem with this argument is there are a few machines that > nobody ever made SRM for. Like the XL266 and the 300XL. They don't > trouble us because we don't have them. But we don't have them because > they don't run BSD. > > And then there is the new UP1000 board which claims to have AlphaBios > only & to support linux. > (http://www.alpha-processor.com/products/up1000-board.asp) > I think this might be just paperware, as I cannot find any mention of it > anywhere except at Alpha Processor Inc's site. Er, no. API are sending FreeBSD Labs a UP2000 which is similarly described. We didn't actually realise it was AlphaBIOS only, but if anyone were keen enough to hack on the MILO code to achieve a worthwhile goal, this machine would be available for that purpose. > It sure would be nice if they just open-sourced SRM. There are licensed components inside SRM that prevent this from happening; we've been down this path with Dompaq already. However, there does seem to be some fairly strong interest inside the organisation for the production of an SRM replacement that would be open-sourced. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 1:15:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228A71534E for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id JAA04247; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:46:09 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA55763; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:36:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199912040836.JAA55763@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <14408.29267.776501.133049@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> from Andrew Gallatin at "Dec 3, 1999 8:58:24 pm" To: gallatin@cs.duke.edu (Andrew Gallatin) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:36:16 +0100 (CET) Cc: isildur@guild.net, mjacob@feral.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Andrew Gallatin wrote ... > The only problem with this argument is there are a few machines that > nobody ever made SRM for. Like the XL266 and the 300XL. They don't > trouble us because we don't have them. But we don't have them because > they don't run BSD. > > And then there is the new UP1000 board which claims to have AlphaBios > only & to support linux. > (http://www.alpha-processor.com/products/up1000-board.asp) > I think this might be just paperware, as I cannot find any mention of it > anywhere except at Alpha Processor Inc's site. > > It sure would be nice if they just open-sourced SRM. No you don't ;-) ..... SRM is built and developed on OpenVMS/alpha. Over 3200 source & misc files in a single directory.. (I was once shown the builddir, that is why I know) -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 1:16: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DD515360 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id JAA04243; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:46:03 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA55993; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:56:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199912040856.JAA55993@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199912032321.SAA17064@ghost.whirlpool.com> from Andrew Gillham at "Dec 3, 1999 6:21:21 pm" To: gillhaa@ghost.whirlpool.com (Andrew Gillham) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:56:34 +0100 (CET) Cc: isildur@guild.net, mjacob@feral.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Andrew Gillham wrote ... > Lord Isildur writes: > > > [...] > > > > certainly, if anyone _needs_ to use BSD with MILO for some strange reason, > > it'd be better to modify MILO than BSD. Wasn't there a problem with the PALcode that ARC brings you? (memory is dim here..) > Ok, stupid question.. Is it possible to build a 'boot' for NetBSD that > can be loaded by MILO, and have this boot then load the kernel? Rather > than hacking MILO to load the kernel directly, or hacking the kernel to > be loadable directly? After all, isn't 'boot' responsible for reading in > the kernel, and starting it? The differences between SRM devices and MILO > devices should be hidden from the kernel. > > For the average Joe, using the ARC/AlphaBIOS menus to setup booting Linux > and/or BSD, etc isn't so bad. Also, the ARC console can boot from some > NCR controllers that the SRM can't, etc. Hmm, I wonder if the ARC firmware Most/some ARC's (??) can also handle an Adaptec 2940[UW] card. > supports additional video cards also? On some machines yes. For example my Miata accepts video cards while in ARC that it does not (unless you pci_device_override) in SRM. Which makes me wonder why the Pyxis bug is not relevant to NT BTW. Wilko -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 11:43:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A5814F71; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10561; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:43:39 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:43:39 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Wilko Bulte Cc: gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... In-Reply-To: <199911251900.UAA01014@yedi.iaf.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm now wondering whether or not this would be a good idea or not. Right now, the default is *not* to compile in the firmware. However, I had a bit of a hard time with the SRM loaded f/w (and this is the latest) when I had both an internal drive and 2 external tape drives. This problem went away when I went back to compiling in the f/w which then downloaded. Jason (bless his heart) Thorpe kept on claiming that NetBSD-alpha was completely broken without the f/w- I never saw such breakage at all and real active details were not provided, and in fact *you* (Wilko) are the only one who I know was completely blocked w/o the f/w. So, I'm in a bit of a quandary now as to what the right thing to do is. There is the open PR about putting the f/w into kld's- that'd probably be mostly the right thing to do. Before that happens, though, should the default be to have the f/w compiled in? It adds ~200K to kernel bloat (although this could be cut down by only compiling in 1040 f/w instead of including 1080, 2100 and 2200 f/w as well). Opinions? -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 14: 9:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E1914D29; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:08:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id WAA01901; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:57:10 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA88557; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:42:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199912042142.WAA88557@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... In-Reply-To: from Matthew Jacob at "Dec 4, 1999 11:43:39 am" To: mjacob@feral.com Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:42:57 +0100 (CET) Cc: gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Matthew Jacob wrote ... > I'm now wondering whether or not this would be a good idea or not. Right > now, the default is *not* to compile in the firmware. OK, you told me that before. > However, I had a bit of a hard time with the SRM loaded f/w (and this is > the latest) when I had both an internal drive and 2 external tape drives. > This problem went away when I went back to compiling in the f/w which then > downloaded. Did you have both internal AND external devices on the same KZPBA card? FYI: we (== Compaq) don't support this. Obviously this decision is based on the f/w that is in the SRM code. Tests have shown it really does not work well when both internal and external devices are present on the same card. YMMV of course and I obviously don't know what was biting you. > Jason (bless his heart) Thorpe kept on claiming that NetBSD-alpha was > completely broken without the f/w- I never saw such breakage at all and > real active details were not provided, and in fact *you* (Wilko) are the > only one who I know was completely blocked w/o the f/w. I'm apparantly the only one with a machine I cannot load SRM onto with more or less recent Qlogic f/w inside. An exception to the rule obviously. People running older Eval Board alpha's will likely suffer from the same problem. But considering the rumors around former ARC-only systems this might change. Wild guess... > So, I'm in a bit of a quandary now as to what the right thing to do is. Don't shoot me: the right thing to do is to make it possible to boot FreeBSD/alpha from a CDROM. With or without Qlogic firmware FreeBSD/alpha is quickly getting too big to be really practical as far as floppy booting goes. NetBSD can do CDROM booting, but I don't really understand the issues around CDROM bootability. Having fixed the size problem the extra 200Kb bloat becomes somewhat academic I think. People not willing to build a custom kernel for their particular hardware.. well, they should invest a bit of time to work out kernel building in the first place. Added bonus of bootable CDROMs: you can do 'fixit' like work. Might come in handy (considering some recent postings ;-) ;-) > There is the open PR about putting the f/w into kld's- that'd probably be > mostly the right thing to do. Before that happens, though, should the > default be to have the f/w compiled in? It adds ~200K to kernel bloat I'd say the issue is seperated into an installation kernel and a kernel built from source once the system is installed. In the latter case I think we can live without compiled-in f/w, making compiling-in optional for those who really need it (people like me ;-) > (although this could be cut down by only compiling in 1040 f/w instead of > including 1080, 2100 and 2200 f/w as well). Hm. The DEC-sanctioned cards (as far as SRM booting goes, so for system disks) only use 1040's if I'm not mistaken. So this might be the most practical short-term solution. How much would 1040-only f/w add to the installation kernel ? > Opinions? Well, some thought. Hope they are somewhat helpful. > -matt Wilko -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 14:10:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles545.castles.com [208.214.165.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807AF14C2E; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04921; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:09:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199912042209.OAA04921@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Wilko Bulte , gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:43:39 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:09:12 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So, I'm in a bit of a quandary now as to what the right thing to do is. > There is the open PR about putting the f/w into kld's- that'd probably be > mostly the right thing to do. Before that happens, though, should the > default be to have the f/w compiled in? It adds ~200K to kernel bloat > (although this could be cut down by only compiling in 1040 f/w instead of > including 1080, 2100 and 2200 f/w as well). > > Opinions? If you build GENERIC with all the firmware compiled in, then gzip the resulting kernel binary, how big is the file? If it'll fit on a 1.44MB floppy with room for the loader as well, then put it in. If not, then don't put it in. 8) -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 14:11:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3640B153F1; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:11:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11061; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:10:13 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:10:13 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Mike Smith Cc: Wilko Bulte , gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... In-Reply-To: <199912042209.OAA04921@mass.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How big is the loader? On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Mike Smith wrote: > > So, I'm in a bit of a quandary now as to what the right thing to do is. > > There is the open PR about putting the f/w into kld's- that'd probably be > > mostly the right thing to do. Before that happens, though, should the > > default be to have the f/w compiled in? It adds ~200K to kernel bloat > > (although this could be cut down by only compiling in 1040 f/w instead of > > including 1080, 2100 and 2200 f/w as well). > > > > Opinions? > > If you build GENERIC with all the firmware compiled in, then gzip the > resulting kernel binary, how big is the file? If it'll fit on a 1.44MB > floppy with room for the loader as well, then put it in. If not, then > don't put it in. 8) > > -- > \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith > \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 14:38:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from planck.clarku.edu (planck.clarku.edu [140.232.2.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED27714C28 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gjohnson@physics.clarku.edu) Received: (from gjohnson@localhost) by planck.clarku.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id RAA16660; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:36:53 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:36:53 -0500 From: Greg Johnson To: Wilko Bulte Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Message-ID: <19991204173653.A16642@physics.clarku.edu> References: <199912032321.SAA17064@ghost.whirlpool.com> <199912040856.JAA55993@yedi.iaf.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199912040856.JAA55993@yedi.iaf.nl>; from Wilko Bulte on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:56:34AM +0100 X-Operating-System: Linux planck 2.2.12 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:56:34AM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > As Andrew Gillham wrote ... > > Lord Isildur writes: > > > > > [...] > > > > > > certainly, if anyone _needs_ to use BSD with MILO for some strange > > > reason, it'd be better to modify MILO than BSD. > > Wasn't there a problem with the PALcode that ARC brings you? > (memory is dim here..) MILO provides its own PALcode. > > > Ok, stupid question.. Is it possible to build a 'boot' for NetBSD that > > can be loaded by MILO, and have this boot then load the kernel? Rather > > than hacking MILO to load the kernel directly, or hacking the kernel to > > be loadable directly? After all, isn't 'boot' responsible for reading in > > the kernel, and starting it? The differences between SRM devices and MILO > > devices should be hidden from the kernel. > > > > For the average Joe, using the ARC/AlphaBIOS menus to setup booting Linux > > and/or BSD, etc isn't so bad. Also, the ARC console can boot from some > > NCR controllers that the SRM can't, etc. Hmm, I wonder if the ARC firmware > > Most/some ARC's (??) can also handle an Adaptec 2940[UW] card. > > > supports additional video cards also? > > On some machines yes. For example my Miata accepts video cards while in > ARC that it does not (unless you pci_device_override) in SRM. Which makes > me wonder why the Pyxis bug is not relevant to NT BTW. What's the Pyxis bug? > > Wilko -- Greg Johnson gjohnson@physics.clarku.edu http://physics.clarku.edu/~gjohnson finger for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 15:47:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8237C153BB for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:47:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tls@panix.com) Received: from panix6.panix.com (panix6.panix.com [166.84.0.231]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED9F31044; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix6.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id SAA11749; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:46:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:46:18 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Message-ID: <19991204184618.A11619@rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls@rek.tjls.com References: <199912032321.SAA17064@ghost.whirlpool.com> <199912040856.JAA55993@yedi.iaf.nl> <19991204173653.A16642@physics.clarku.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991204173653.A16642@physics.clarku.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 05:36:53PM -0500, Greg Johnson wrote: > On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:56:34AM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > As Andrew Gillham wrote ... > > > Lord Isildur writes: > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > certainly, if anyone _needs_ to use BSD with MILO for some strange > > > > reason, it'd be better to modify MILO than BSD. > > > > Wasn't there a problem with the PALcode that ARC brings you? > > (memory is dim here..) > > MILO provides its own PALcode. I can't *believe* I'm having to say this again, for the Nth time in as many months: The PALcode included in MILO has severe bugs. You can't use it to run BSD, or OSF/1 for that matter. It's remarkable that you can use it to run Linux, and sundry reports of Linux instability when run with MILO make me suspect that, in fact, you can't. This is the PALcode from the DEC EBSDK, which is really, *really* old and was worked-over to be built with a totally different toolchain than the PALcode in production SRM. Ross Harvey was on the verge of fixing some of the more obnoxious bugs in it once but managed to obtain the real SRM PALcode for the project he was working on, so he didn't. You can't run BSD with this PALcode, so you can't run BSD with MILO. If you want to waste a lot of your time and effort, it would be more productive to waste it persuading DEC to release SRM for more platforms, or to release the unmodified source code to a _current_ SRM, including the PALcode. Gee, it'd be nice if anyone would _remember_ this explanation for more than a month this time. -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 16: 4:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost.whirlpool.com (mailhost.whirlpool.com [158.52.254.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DBF4B1529A for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:04:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gillhaa@ghost.whirlpool.com) Received: (qmail 29664 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 00:03:59 -0000 Received: from ghost.whirlpool.com (158.52.19.3) by mailhost.whirlpool.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 00:03:59 -0000 Received: (from gillhaa@localhost) by ghost.whirlpool.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23976; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:03:59 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Gillham Message-Id: <199912050003.TAA23976@ghost.whirlpool.com> Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19991204184618.A11619@rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Dec 4, 99 06:46:18 pm" To: tls@rek.tjls.com Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:03:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thor Lancelot Simon writes: > > I can't *believe* I'm having to say this again, for the Nth time in as many > months: > > The PALcode included in MILO has severe bugs. You can't use > it to run BSD, or OSF/1 for that matter. It's remarkable that > you can use it to run Linux, and sundry reports of Linux > instability when run with MILO make me suspect that, in fact, > you can't. In essence what you're saying is that no Alpha OS is capable of actually talking to the bare hardware? e.g. PALcode is still required after the kernel is loaded? e.g. Windows NT has PALcode embedded in it somehow? This sounds familiar, but I'm still confused about it. Why can't the PALcode be reverse engineered, or otherwise re-written? [snip] > Gee, it'd be nice if anyone would _remember_ this explanation for more > than a month this time. Maybe the explanation is missing some details. I have typically thought of the "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" along the lines of "OpenFirmware is required for NetBSD/macppc." (e.g. to boot and get started) The impression I have now is more like "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" along the lines of "BIOS is required for Windows." (e.g. calling the BIOS all the time for services) I said it was a stupid question. -Andrew -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Gillham | This space left blank gillham@whirlpool.com | inadvertently. I speak for myself, not for my employer. | Contact the publisher. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 16:24:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA [132.206.78.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4527C14DE5 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mouse@Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA) Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17128; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:24:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:24:19 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <199912050024.TAA17128@Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> The PALcode included in MILO has severe bugs. You can't use it >> to run BSD, or OSF/1 for that matter. It's remarkable that you >> can use it to run Linux, and sundry reports of Linux >> instability when run with MILO make me suspect that, in fact, >> you can't. > In essence what you're saying is that no Alpha OS is capable of > actually talking to the bare hardware? e.g. PALcode is still > required after the kernel is loaded? As I understand it - I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong - that's correct. The PALcode is used by the OS for things which are severely hardware-dependent (like loading page table entries, I think), and I think the PALcode itself is very hardware-specific. (That is, it won't work to, for example, put AlphaPC164LX PALcode on anything but an AlphaPC164LX.) Very loosely put, custom microcode. :-) > e.g. Windows NT has PALcode embedded in it somehow? Possible, I suppose, but it strikes me as unlikely; more likely it knows how to call on the PALcode provided by ARC, just as *BSD knows how to call on the PALcode provided by SRM. > This sounds familiar, but I'm still confused about it. Why can't the > PALcode be reverse engineered, or otherwise re-written? It probably could be, but if I'm right about the degree to which it's hardware-specific, it likely wouldn't be worth it. > I have typically thought of the "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" > along the lines of "OpenFirmware is required for NetBSD/macppc." > [...] The impression I have now is more like "SRM is required for > NetBSD/alpha" along the lines of "BIOS is required for Windows." The latter is more or less the impression I have too, for what that may be worth. der Mouse mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 16:58:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles545.castles.com [208.214.165.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E844814E9D for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05494; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:57:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199912050057.QAA05494@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Andrew Gillham Cc: tls@rek.tjls.com, port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Dec 1999 19:03:59 EST." <199912050003.TAA23976@ghost.whirlpool.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:57:58 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Thor Lancelot Simon writes: > > > > I can't *believe* I'm having to say this again, for the Nth time in as many > > months: > > > > The PALcode included in MILO has severe bugs. You can't use > > it to run BSD, or OSF/1 for that matter. It's remarkable that > > you can use it to run Linux, and sundry reports of Linux > > instability when run with MILO make me suspect that, in fact, > > you can't. > > In essence what you're saying is that no Alpha OS is capable of actually > talking to the bare hardware? e.g. PALcode is still required after the > kernel is loaded? That's partially correct. The PALcode requirements for different operating systems are different; that's why there is NT PALcode, VMS PALcode and OSF PALcode. The NT PALcode footprint is perhaps the smallest, and as a result (according to one of the developers therof with whom I have had conversation) there is a single common PALcode for each CPU architecture. The OSF PALcode footprint is the one that the BSD's use. Linux uses a subset of this, and MILO (just) covers that. As Thor has said, MILO is buggier than a $5 hotel room. > e.g. Windows NT has PALcode embedded in it somehow? I don't believe so. The PALcode is typically provided by the system's firmware. > This sounds familiar, but I'm still confused about it. Why can't the > PALcode be reverse engineered, or otherwise re-written? Theoretically it could. However, doing that would require access to documentation that's not generally available, and a massive development effort. Right now, there aren't the people or documentation available to make it a viable project. > [snip] > > Gee, it'd be nice if anyone would _remember_ this explanation for more > > than a month this time. > > Maybe the explanation is missing some details. I have typically thought > of the "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" along the lines of "OpenFirmware > is required for NetBSD/macppc." (e.g. to boot and get started) You are confusing "SRM" and "PALcode". The two are typically bundled together, but they are in no way inseperable. > The impression I have now is more like "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" > along the lines of "BIOS is required for Windows." (e.g. calling the BIOS > all the time for services) No. OSF PALcode is required for BSD/alpha in more or less that fashion. SRM is only "required" because nobody has written an ARC/AlphaBIOS-aware bootstrap. There's one in some unknown state in the FreeBSD bootloader sources, FWIW, but it's not useful unless the machine already has OSF PALcode, in which case it'll have SRM and thus it's a bit of an unuseful item at this stage. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 17: 5:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles545.castles.com [208.214.165.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3B614E9D for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05534; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:05:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199912050105.RAA05534@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Andrew Reilly" Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 05 Dec 1999 11:54:51 +1100." <19991205115451.A20025@gurney.reilly.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:05:23 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:20:15AM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > There are licensed components inside SRM that prevent this from > > happening; we've been down this path with Dompaq already. However, there > > does seem to be some fairly strong interest inside the organisation for > > the production of an SRM replacement that would be open-sourced. > > Apart from boot-monitor stuff, there's PALcode, right? What > does that actually do for you, that takes so much (proprietary) > code? Isn't it just shortcuts to hide the TLB/memory management > hardware under some sort of high-level API? It depends on which footprint you're talking about. In the BSD (OSF) case, it also covers things such as interrupt handling and acknowledgement, and there are probably SMP primitives there as well. > Put another way: is there anything about the various Alpha > implementations that are insufficiently documented, or prevent > us from doing these things ourselves, right on the chip itself? Yes, there are. It took a lot of effort on the part of several quite powerful people inside Digital just to liberate the documentation for the old AlphaServer 2100 4/xxx systems. In some ways, things are getting easier, but regardless the current situation is such that a) the documentation is very hard to get, and b) the degree of skill and understanding of the system architecture required is possessed by only a very few people. > The *BSD reliance on the SRM seems to basically limit the Alpha > purchase choices to Compaq. I.e., not Samsung/AlphaProcessor. This is currently correct. It is, however, erroneous to think that either a) we're not aware of this, or b) we're somehow indifferent or inactive on the subject. I know for a fact that the folks on the FreeBSD side of the fence have been pursuing every avenue we've come across, and I hardly expect the NetBSD people have been any less active. There are simply some very substantial obstacles currently in the way of a breakthrough. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 17:11: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0AB5152CB; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11555; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:09:42 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:09:42 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Mike Smith , Andrew Gillham Cc: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199912050057.QAA05494@mass.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I can't *believe* I'm having to say this again, for the Nth time in as many > > > months: > > > > > > The PALcode included in MILO has severe bugs. You can't use > > > it to run BSD, or OSF/1 for that matter. It's remarkable that > > > you can use it to run Linux, and sundry reports of Linux > > > instability when run with MILO make me suspect that, in fact, > > > you can't. > > > > In essence what you're saying is that no Alpha OS is capable of actually > > talking to the bare hardware? e.g. PALcode is still required after the > > kernel is loaded? > > That's partially correct. The PALcode requirements for different > operating systems are different; that's why there is NT PALcode, VMS > PALcode and OSF PALcode. The NT PALcode footprint is perhaps the > smallest, and as a result (according to one of the developers therof with > whom I have had conversation) there is a single common PALcode for each > CPU architecture. Anyone interested in this subject should consider purchasing the 'Green Book'- the Alpha Architecture Reference manual (now in third edition). It is absolutely indispensible for anyone working in this area. Insofar as it goes, Alpha *is* a RISC architecture. However, I've always had a twitch at the corners of my mouth about a "RISC" architecture that has the same number of general purpose registers as the VAX. Oh, and like the VAX, requires microcode (PALcode) to run. The point of PALcode (other than being a pain to deal with) is that for each flavor, it provides an extremely consistent bare minimum set of services that each OS needs and is guaranteed across the entire chip family. It's more than just TLB stuff- it's also initial interrupt handling as well. If anyone has ever looked at the low level trap handler for sparc, particularly for dealing with register window over/underflows while already in kernel mode, you'll appreciate why PALcode is so much the right thing to do (*it* handles this kind of h/w complexity). That's why 95% of porting effort to a new alpha platform is I/O bus related- not main processor chip or cache related. -matt http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=1555582028 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 17:16:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.3.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC56714E9D for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:16:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reilly@zeta.org.au) Received: from areilly.bpc-users.org (CPE-24-192-49-170.nsw.bigpond.net.au [24.192.49.170]) by sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA29363 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:14:53 +1100 (EDT) Received: (qmail 20998 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Dec 1999 00:54:51 -0000 From: "Andrew Reilly" Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:54:51 +1100 To: Mike Smith Cc: Andrew Gallatin , Lord Isildur , Matthew Jacob , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Message-ID: <19991205115451.A20025@gurney.reilly.home> References: <14408.29267.776501.133049@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <199912040820.AAA00599@mass.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199912040820.AAA00599@mass.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:20:15AM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > There are licensed components inside SRM that prevent this from > happening; we've been down this path with Dompaq already. However, there > does seem to be some fairly strong interest inside the organisation for > the production of an SRM replacement that would be open-sourced. Apart from boot-monitor stuff, there's PALcode, right? What does that actually do for you, that takes so much (proprietary) code? Isn't it just shortcuts to hide the TLB/memory management hardware under some sort of high-level API? Put another way: is there anything about the various Alpha implementations that are insufficiently documented, or prevent us from doing these things ourselves, right on the chip itself? The MIPS chips have to do the same sorts of manual TLB things, I thought, without the assistance of PALcode. The *BSD reliance on the SRM seems to basically limit the Alpha purchase choices to Compaq. I.e., not Samsung/AlphaProcessor. -- Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 17:16:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169481536F; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:16:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11572; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:16:27 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:16:27 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Mike Smith Cc: Andrew Reilly , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199912050105.RAA05534@mass.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The *BSD reliance on the SRM seems to basically limit the Alpha > > purchase choices to Compaq. I.e., not Samsung/AlphaProcessor. > > This is currently correct. It is, however, erroneous to think that > either a) we're not aware of this, or b) we're somehow indifferent or > inactive on the subject. I know for a fact that the folks on the FreeBSD > side of the fence have been pursuing every avenue we've come across, and > I hardly expect the NetBSD people have been any less active. There are > simply some very substantial obstacles currently in the way of a > breakthrough. The SRM vs. AlphaBios/ARC issues are a phantom. *BSD has a long way to go to fully support the SRM capapble machines before worrying about platforms which don't have SRM. This is a sideshow. I would have said it was more critical if Tru64 died, but much to &my& surprise it was NT-Alpha that walked the plank, not DUh (now Tru64). Given that Tru64 is very successfully selling on the leading new Dompaq platforms (and depends on SRM), I rather doubt *BSD will get all that left behind because we've not gotten ARC/AlphaBios yet. If somebody wants to continue doing ARC/AlphaBios- that'd be great, but even better for *BSD (all of *BSD) would be making sure that Tru64 binaries like Oracle and so on can be successfully run- and that support for AdvFS gets into *BSD happens. Those two items would generate considerably more interest in *BSD on Alphas than ARC/AlphaBios support. -matt p.s.: note that I very carefully am saying *BSD here- all of the *BSD systems would benefit in coordinating on this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 17:25:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles545.castles.com [208.214.165.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B767A153A2; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:25:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05619; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:26:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199912050126.RAA05619@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Mike Smith , Andrew Reilly , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:16:27 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:26:49 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The SRM vs. AlphaBios/ARC issues are a phantom. *BSD has a long way to go > to fully support the SRM capapble machines before worrying about platforms > which don't have SRM. This is a sideshow. I would have said it was more > critical if Tru64 died, but much to &my& surprise it was NT-Alpha that > walked the plank, not DUh (now Tru64). Given that Tru64 is very > successfully selling on the leading new Dompaq platforms (and depends on > SRM), I rather doubt *BSD will get all that left behind because we've not > gotten ARC/AlphaBios yet. If you know something I don't about Alpha Processor Inc's machines, I'd love to hear it. They are only shipping AlphaBIOS, since there is MILO code for their systems. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 17:29:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E584F15366; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11633; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:29:35 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:29:35 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Mike Smith Cc: Andrew Reilly , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199912050126.RAA05619@mass.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The SRM vs. AlphaBios/ARC issues are a phantom. *BSD has a long way to go > > to fully support the SRM capapble machines before worrying about platforms > > which don't have SRM. This is a sideshow. I would have said it was more > > critical if Tru64 died, but much to &my& surprise it was NT-Alpha that > > walked the plank, not DUh (now Tru64). Given that Tru64 is very > > successfully selling on the leading new Dompaq platforms (and depends on > > SRM), I rather doubt *BSD will get all that left behind because we've not > > gotten ARC/AlphaBios yet. > > If you know something I don't about Alpha Processor Inc's machines, I'd > love to hear it. They are only shipping AlphaBIOS, since there is MILO > code for their systems. Nope, but I can't speak for their choices or business model. Do they have a machine that is an absolute *must have* for *BSD? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 17:49: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from omega.metrics.com (omega.metrics.com [204.138.110.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECB51537A; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:48:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomh@metrics.com) Received: from syncro.metrics.com (syncro.metrics.com [204.138.110.20]) by omega.metrics.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17796; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by syncro.metrics.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:49:08 -0500 Message-ID: <31FF76BDFCB5D211A3270000C0F2F7BF54D7D2@syncro.metrics.com> From: Tom Haapanen To: "'Mike Smith'" , mjacob@feral.com Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: RE: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:49:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If you know something I don't about Alpha Processor Inc's machines, I'd > love to hear it. They are only shipping AlphaBIOS, since there is MILO > code for their systems. With the death of NT on Alpha, that also makes their boxes Linux only, right? With SRM, they would be able to support not only *BSD, but also Tru64. Does API listen to requests? Is there hope of convincing them to provide SRM support? ----- Tom Haapanen -- Software Metrics Inc. -- Waterloo, ON, Canada Advanced Printing Solutions -- http://www.metrics.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 17:52:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6401537A; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11756; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:52:23 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:52:23 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Tom Haapanen Cc: "'Mike Smith'" , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: RE: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <31FF76BDFCB5D211A3270000C0F2F7BF54D7D2@syncro.metrics.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > With the death of NT on Alpha, that also makes their boxes Linux only, > right? With SRM, they would be able to support not only *BSD, but also > Tru64. *AND* Linux, although aboot is iffy as hell. > > Does API listen to requests? Is there hope of convincing them to provide > SRM support? > > ----- > Tom Haapanen -- Software Metrics Inc. -- Waterloo, ON, Canada > Advanced Printing Solutions -- http://www.metrics.com/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 18: 0:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6533215406; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:59:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tls@panix.com) Received: from panix6.panix.com (panix6.panix.com [166.84.0.231]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D8B30F01; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix6.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id UAA14221; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:58:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:58:37 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: Mike Smith Cc: alpha@freebsd.org, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Message-ID: <19991204205837.A14165@rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls@rek.tjls.com References: <199912050126.RAA05619@mass.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199912050126.RAA05619@mass.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 05:26:49PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > The SRM vs. AlphaBios/ARC issues are a phantom. *BSD has a long way to go > > to fully support the SRM capapble machines before worrying about platforms > > which don't have SRM. This is a sideshow. I would have said it was more > > critical if Tru64 died, but much to &my& surprise it was NT-Alpha that > > walked the plank, not DUh (now Tru64). Given that Tru64 is very > > successfully selling on the leading new Dompaq platforms (and depends on > > SRM), I rather doubt *BSD will get all that left behind because we've not > > gotten ARC/AlphaBios yet. > > If you know something I don't about Alpha Processor Inc's machines, I'd > love to hear it. They are only shipping AlphaBIOS, since there is MILO > code for their systems. Well, API certainly managed to ship Ross a machine with SRM so that he could port NetBSD to their hardware. -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com "And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 18:15:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from brooklyn.lucasfilm.com (ns.lucasfilm.com [208.244.233.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16E11538F; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkaitsch@ilm.com) Received: from cerberus.lucasfilm.com ([150.0.40.12]) by brooklyn.lucasfilm.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id XR0DVTX7; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:14:29 -0800 Received: from malone.lucasdigital.com ([10.10.192.51]) by cerberus.lucasfilm.com; Sat, 04 Dec 1999 18:13:56 +0000 (PST) Received: from lucasdigital.com (lani [10.10.32.40]) by malone.lucasdigital.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/990524-/HUB) with ESMTP id SAA19198; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lani (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lani.lucasdigital.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA04554; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:13:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050213.SAA04554@lani.lucasdigital.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: tls@rek.tjls.com Cc: Mike Smith , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message from Thor Lancelot Simon of "Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:58:37 EST." <19991204205837.A14165@rek.tjls.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 18:13:42 -0800 From: John Kaitschuck Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thor Lancelot Simon wrote... > > > On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 05:26:49PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > > The SRM vs. AlphaBios/ARC issues are a phantom. *BSD has a long way to go > > > to fully support the SRM capapble machines before worrying about platforms > > > which don't have SRM. This is a sideshow. I would have said it was more > > > critical if Tru64 died, but much to &my& surprise it was NT-Alpha that > > > walked the plank, not DUh (now Tru64). Given that Tru64 is very > > > successfully selling on the leading new Dompaq platforms (and depends on > > > SRM), I rather doubt *BSD will get all that left behind because we've not > > > gotten ARC/AlphaBios yet. > > > > If you know something I don't about Alpha Processor Inc's machines, I'd > > love to hear it. They are only shipping AlphaBIOS, since there is MILO > > code for their systems. > > Well, API certainly managed to ship Ross a machine with SRM so that he > could port NetBSD to their hardware. > FYI.... The SRM code is available on the API web site although I haven't tested it... -- John Kaitschuck, Systems R&D ILM jkaitsch@ilm.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 18:33: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from audrey.Ivy.NET (audrey.Ivy.NET [204.183.93.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A69153AB for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:32:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from carton@Ivy.NET) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by audrey.Ivy.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02248; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 02:31:58 GMT Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:31:57 -0700 (MST) From: Miles Nordin To: Andrew Gillham Cc: tls@rek.tjls.com, port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199912050003.TAA23976@ghost.whirlpool.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Andrew Gillham wrote: > Windows NT has PALcode embedded in it somehow? Windows NT has god only knows what embedded in it. We all know where Digital has been taking it from them since the beginning. Alpha's even have a PeeCee DRAM-refreshtimer-speakerbeeper in them, no? i'm feeling more wholesome not knowing what's going on inside that tent. not that anyone is offering to tell me. > "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" along the lines of "OpenFirmware > is required for NetBSD/macppc." (e.g. to boot and get started) notPC's don't use the same MAME-type arcade machine architecture as PC's. The OS generally stays on friendly terms with the firmware even after boot. This is good, because it allows some simple hardware abstraction to take place so that motherboards don't need to be pin-for-pin, trace-for-trace compatible with the golden original version of the Bionic Commando board or the PC XT or whatever video game you happen to be talking about. Supporting a chip or a chip family is good enough. The arcade machine philosophy is perhaps workable, for arcade machines. I've been harping about the PS2 recently. If you buy a Playstation, you know your small investment is protected for at least three or four years. Every Playstation sold in that release cycle will be basically identical, so you don't have to worry about Johnny down the street getting a faster Playstation than you, at least not for a while. Likewise, if your OS works on the first Playstation, it will almost certainly keep working for a few years without further attention. When a new one does come out, it will be a BFD, completely different, radical architecture changes, new CPU, require all new MD code. But working this way is outrageous when you're talking about $1000-$3000 machines that change just very, very slightly on a monthly basis like Alpha's, with a bunch of different CPU models and steppings and architecture codenames. If you expect your code to be the only code running in the system, you are doomed to the constant nuissance-level hacks that make good i386 support such a challenge--obscure tweaks to the OS to keep up with the latest buggy chipset used by some flash-in-the-pan Chineese Slave Labour motherboard manufacturer. That's what firmware is supposed to help. OS Q. Any SCSI stuff on this box? FW A. There is an ISP-ish chip. The ISP is a (Revision xxxxx), in case you care. It is attached (here.) It is initialized and ready for your use. as opposed to: /* probe for ISP */ [...] /* are we on ISA? */ [...] /* don't touch 0x224 with an 0x8a or an 0x9f, because it might be a soundblaster and lock up the bus */ [...] #if 1 /* clever hack from frightwig@eroticom.com */ [...] #endif #ifdef __i386__ /* workaround for 440BX bug */ [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] #else /* Digital host bridge */ [...] #endif /* great! now, initialize the chip. */ #ifdef SUPPORT_ISP1040A [...] #else /* we are on a 1040B or later */ [...] #endif [...] [...] /* grrmph.. eh, nevermind. */ [...] [...] My understanding is obviously minimal--the other posts here suggest that the PALcode idea is a lot more complex and interesting than this. PC's keep trying to do something vaguely like Firmware, but from reading stuff on these lists it seems they still don't ``get it,'' and the BIOS people who keep trying are all fired as far as NetBSD is concerned. Thanks to NT the Alpha seems to have inherited some of this insanity. The people who wrote MILO _wanted_ an arcade machine, and refused to trust firmware, or even admit firmware's right to exist--which, is often the right way to deal with bugridden PeeCee nonsense, but the Alpha is hopefully not so badly off. > I said it was a stupid question. If it's so stupid, then why don't the Linux people understand it? MILO spawned a whole mess of its own--a dozen forks and branches and revisions, half of which violate the GPL, half of which don't work, and half of which disappear from the site the moment you realize you need them. Digital funded some development on it, which brought two branches and who knows how many revisions of broken video card BIOS x86-emulator code to the table. I remember at one point having three video cards (one of which counted for two, becuase it had a socketed ROM chip that I could remove, and this changed things a bit), three versions of MILO, SRM and ARC, and workingness defined as ``works in SRM, / works in MILO / works at kernel boot / works in X'' which gets you a 96-cell 4-dimensional matrix--i fell over laughing and plugged in a Mac SE serial console. MILO inspired the NILO project, the Overly Complex 256kB proposed Linux Netbooting Architecture complete with a scheduler and an interrupt handler, intended to replace the sprightly BSD netboot code they took from us. And then suddenly the ``firmware'' in the Corel Netwinder is a leprous Linux kernel, just like MILO. dumdumdum.Duh... MILO, strikes again. I tell you as one who used it--MILO is eeevil. Stay away from it. -- Miles Nordin / v:1-888-857-2723 fax:+1 530 579-8680 555 Bryant Street PMB 182 / Palo Alto, CA 94301-1700 / US To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 18:54:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org (redmail.netbsd.org [155.53.200.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F1091521D for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:54:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cgd@netbsd.org) Received: (qmail 1231 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Dec 1999 02:46:26 -0000 To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Mike Smith , Andrew Gillham , port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) References: From: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou) Date: 04 Dec 1999 18:46:26 -0800 In-Reply-To: Matthew Jacob's message of Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:09:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <87bt86ayv1.fsf@redmail.netbsd.org> Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Jacob writes: > Anyone interested in this subject should consider purchasing the 'Green > Book'- the Alpha Architecture Reference manual (now in third edition). It > is absolutely indispensible for anyone working in this area. Actually, now it's the Brown Book. (And, before it was green, it was blue. 8-) I think the new color is rather nasty, but the third edition is more complete and correct by far than the second (in addition to the new chunks). i keep my copy of the brown version in my living room, and of the green version at work... 8-) cgd -- Chris Demetriou - cgd@netbsd.org - http://www.netbsd.org/People/Pages/cgd.html Disclaimer: Not speaking for NetBSD, just expressing my own opinion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 19:33: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EEAE1508F; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:32:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA16773; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:32:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050332.TAA16773@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Wilko Bulte , gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 19:32:34 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:43:39 -0800 (PST) Matthew Jacob wrote: > Jason (bless his heart) Thorpe kept on claiming that NetBSD-alpha was > completely broken without the f/w- I never saw such breakage at all and > real active details were not provided, and in fact *you* (Wilko) are the > only one who I know was completely blocked w/o the f/w. Oh, c'mon. The whole reason you started always downloading the firmware into the ISP is because cgd reported to you that the SRM's ISP firmware on his AlphaStation 500 didn't play nice with the NetBSD driver. I'm pretty sure I have an archive of the e-mail conversation (which was all CC'd to me). And, I'm pretty sure there's actually a PR in the database about a PC164 user having to back-rev his machine to before the firmware was yanked because his ISP no longer worked after a *power-cycle* (i.e. the RAM on the card lost power, and the SRM-loaded firmware was not functional with the NetBSD driver). Not only that, but users of CATS boards (arm32) were completely left out in the cold; the firmware on those machines doesn't run the ISP BIOS, and thus had no way of loading in the firmware into the card. The portmaster went as far as to yank the "isp" driver out of the example kernel config files in that port. ...or don't you read the `source-changes' mailing list? Anyhow, the arm32 case will happen on *ANY* platform who's firmware doesn't natively understand the ISP. So, not loading the firmware by default screws over anyone who tries to put it in an arm32, macppc, Atari Hades, etc. Now, you could do something like have #ifdefs for each firmware, i.e. #ifdef ISP_1020_FIRMWARE ... #ifdef ISP_1080_FIRMWARE ... #ifdef ISP_2100_FIRMWARE ...actually, I just noticed... there's already ISP_DISABLE_..._SUPPORT #ifdefs in there. Why not key on those? -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 19:46:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE70B1508F; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:46:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11983; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:47:18 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:47:18 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Jason Thorpe Cc: Wilko Bulte , gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... In-Reply-To: <199912050332.TAA16773@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Jason Thorpe wrote: > On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:43:39 -0800 (PST) > Matthew Jacob wrote: > > > Jason (bless his heart) Thorpe kept on claiming that NetBSD-alpha was > > completely broken without the f/w- I never saw such breakage at all and > > real active details were not provided, and in fact *you* (Wilko) are the > > only one who I know was completely blocked w/o the f/w. > > Oh, c'mon. The whole reason you started always downloading the firmware > into the ISP is because cgd reported to you that the SRM's ISP firmware > on his AlphaStation 500 didn't play nice with the NetBSD driver. I'm > pretty sure I have an archive of the e-mail conversation (which was all > CC'd to me). Nope, I don't think so. I pretty much always had been downloading f/w. There was a hop skip and dance with some f/w and Chris's machine and some stupid ass bugs in 7.55 f/w where you'd tell it to renegotiate and then ask it what it had done and it lied and gave back random values. > > And, I'm pretty sure there's actually a PR in the database about a > PC164 user having to back-rev his machine to before the firmware was > yanked because his ISP no longer worked after a *power-cycle* (i.e. the > RAM on the card lost power, and the SRM-loaded firmware was not functional > with the NetBSD driver). Yep. But I've concluded that this wasn't a Digital supplied board (and closed the PR) so the SRM wasn't starting it. > > Not only that, but users of CATS boards (arm32) were completely left out > in the cold; the firmware on those machines doesn't run the ISP BIOS, and > thus had no way of loading in the firmware into the card. The portmaster > went as far as to yank the "isp" driver out of the example kernel config > files in that port. So I saw. I never claimed it was not completely broken in some cases. For example, if there was a sparc64/PCI port going, it'd be mostly broken there because only PTI PCI cards have fcode that gets the f/w started. Read what I wrote above. You claimed NetBSD-alpha was completely broken. But neglected to provide details. It wasn't completely broken, but it's been problematic in a number of cases. > ...or don't you read the `source-changes' mailing list? Nope- the netbsd changes list is too hard to read. > > Anyhow, the arm32 case will happen on *ANY* platform who's firmware > doesn't natively understand the ISP. So, not loading the firmware by > default screws over anyone who tries to put it in an arm32, macppc, > Atari Hades, etc. Yup. Such is life and too bad. It is now corrected by being able to have the f/w back in. I've also said that if I can get more information out of Qlogic I can figure out how to extract the onboard firmware in flashram down into sram on the card and get it going if the BIOS hasn't. > > Now, you could do something like have #ifdefs for each firmware, > i.e. > > #ifdef ISP_1020_FIRMWARE > > ... > > #ifdef ISP_1080_FIRMWARE > > ... > > #ifdef ISP_2100_FIRMWARE > > ...actually, I just noticed... there's already ISP_DISABLE_..._SUPPORT > #ifdefs in there. Why not key on those? I do have "compile in these" f/w selectors, and an overall "compile in all f/w" selectors. The NetBSD integration, respecting your unexplained concerns, wraps *around* this by defining ISP_COMPILE_FW in isp_netbsd.h. If I had time to blow on it, it would be a lot better. The subject under discussion *here* is whether to have freebsd follow the settings for NetBSD and compile/load it by default. -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 19:57:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from opus.cirr.com (opus.cirr.com [192.67.63.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE901513C for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric@cirr.com) Received: from cirr.com (IDENT:eric@egsner.cirr.com [192.67.63.1]) by opus.cirr.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA09882; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:53:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912050353.VAA09882@opus.cirr.com> From: eric@cirr.com (Eric Schnoebelen) To: port-alpha@netbsd.org, freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SRM firmware now available for AlphaPC64 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:16:19 CST." Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 21:53:32 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Schnoebelen writes: - I received the following message from Compaq yesterday. They have - made the SRM firmware for the PC64 available without requiring - the purchase of the Firmware Developer's kit. - - In checking the referenced directory, it _appears_ to be a new - build, although I haven't had a chance to test it.. I have now installed the PC64SRM.ROM image, and can confirm it is (slightly) newer than the edition provided on the EBSDK CD. The banners before and after upgrading SRM on the PC64: Before: Digital AlphaPC 64 274 MHz Console V4.5-5, Aug 2 1996 18:17:44 >>>fwupdate After: Digital AlphaPC 64 274 MHz Console V4.8-1, Feb 20 1997 14:29:41 >>> -- Eric Schnoebelen eric@cirr.com http://www.cirr.com Have you ever noticed that the people who are always trying to tell you, "There's a time for work and a time for play," never find the time for play To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 19:57:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6CA1513C; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA17391; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:56:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050356.TAA17391@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: Wilko Bulte Cc: mjacob@feral.com, gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 19:56:44 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:42:57 +0100 (CET) Wilko Bulte wrote: > Don't shoot me: the right thing to do is to make it possible to boot > FreeBSD/alpha from a CDROM. With or without Qlogic firmware FreeBSD/alpha > is quickly getting too big to be really practical as far as floppy booting > goes. NetBSD can do CDROM booting, but I don't really understand the > issues around CDROM bootability. Having fixed the size problem the extra NetBSD can also boot a kernel split across multiple floppies. Our libsa `ustarfs' is pretty cool: nbftp:thorpej 15$ ls -l total 6256 1456 -rw-r--r-- 1 thorpej netbsd 1474560 Dec 4 19:05 disk1of2 816 -rw-r--r-- 1 thorpej netbsd 819200 Dec 4 19:05 disk2of2 ...that's a NetBSD/alpha install floppy set. -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 20: 6: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB84153C7 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:06:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA17602; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:05:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050405.UAA17602@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: tls@rek.tjls.com Cc: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:05:16 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:46:18 -0500 Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > productive to waste it persuading DEC to release SRM for more platforms, > or to release the unmodified source code to a _current_ SRM, including > the PALcode. Or, Hell, just the PALcode for the various processor models, and the documentation necessary to implement console software (i.e. the interrupt routing goo for the various models that we need console software for). -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 20:29:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C27152AA for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:29:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA17892; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:29:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050429.UAA17892@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: Andrew Gillham Cc: tls@rek.tjls.com, port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:29:43 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:03:59 -0500 (EST) Andrew Gillham wrote: > In essence what you're saying is that no Alpha OS is capable of actually > talking to the bare hardware? e.g. PALcode is still required after the > kernel is loaded? e.g. Windows NT has PALcode embedded in it somehow? No, ARC console comes with the NT PALcode. It is possible to run on the bare hardware. But, there are some things that the PALcode does that are *quite* model-specific: - various cache issues - various interrupt issues (e.g. issuing EOIs, interrupt routing, etc.) - machine checks generated by the core logic - machine checks generated by the I/O processors ...and the list goes on. This doesn't include the processor-model specific stuff: - TLB differences - cache differences - trap differences ..and the list goes on here, too. Basically, the PALcode provides a very nice abstraction to the hardware which makes it actually reasonably possible to port the OS to the hardware (and, geez, even Digital UNIX is horribly complex in the hardware specific stuff even *WITH* the PALcode). Running on the bare hardware would be a real pain. Now... The NT PALcode *is* documented ... pretty well in the Green Book, and probably even better in the Red Book. It might not be totally unreasonable to think about a NetBSD/arcalpha ... however, the NT PALcode comes with some caveats: - It's very geared to NT's kernel model - Memory management is essentially MIPS-like, and also limits the virtual address space to 32-bit (except for some virtual address extension hack used to get at the hardware in the kernel) - It's ... amazingly large and complex. The number of NT PALcode calls is simply mind boggling. > This sounds familiar, but I'm still confused about it. Why can't the > PALcode be reverse engineered, or otherwise re-written? Writing PALcode for the Alpha is not in the business you want to be in. It's a lot (a lot a lot a lot) of very carefully written assembly code. Instruction counts in many operations matter. It's a daunting task. > Maybe the explanation is missing some details. I have typically thought > of the "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" along the lines of "OpenFirmware > is required for NetBSD/macppc." (e.g. to boot and get started) > The impression I have now is more like "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" > along the lines of "BIOS is required for Windows." (e.g. calling the BIOS > all the time for services) Note, SRM isn't really required, per se. NetBSD/alpha *DOES RUN* on a platform that doesn't have SRM; it's a parallel multicomputer called the Avalon A12. It's not a DEC machine. It does't have DEC console software. The console software it does have, however, provides OSF/1 PALcode, and the A12 console software also complies with the Alpha Console Architecture as described in the architecture manual. SRM also complies with this (obviously). The AlphaBIOS console software complies with ARC (originally a console specification for MIPS systems), and not with Alpha Console Architecture. If someone were to write some free console software, please pay careful attention to the Green and or Red Book's description of the Console Architecture. The Console Architecture doesn't suck. Now, strictly speaking, the console software and the PALcode are distinct entities. When NetBSD calls the PALcode, it's not calling the console software, really. It's calling the PALcode. There is a standard PALcode operations called `swppal' which enables you do switch to a different PALcode image on the fly (the NetBSD/alpha boot loader does this; SRM comes up in the OpenVMS PALcode by default). However, the PALcode is called literally all the time. Take a NetBSD kernel image sometime, pump it though objdump --disassemble, and grep for the "call_pal" instruction: bishop:thorpej 53$ pwd /sys/arch/alpha/compile/GENERIC bishop:thorpej 54$ objdump --disassemble netbsd | grep -c call_pal 4807 bishop:thorpej 55$ Some of those are in key places, like, for example, all traps (syscalls, interrupts, page faults, etc.). The C library uses it, too. It's how system calls are made (the `callsys' PALcode operation). -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 20:41:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F15152BE for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA18061; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:41:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050441.UAA18061@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: der Mouse Cc: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:41:01 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:24:19 -0500 (EST) der Mouse wrote: > think the PALcode itself is very hardware-specific. (That is, it won't > work to, for example, put AlphaPC164LX PALcode on anything but an > AlphaPC164LX.) Very loosely put, custom microcode. :-) Ah! But it's not microcode! :-) It's written in the same instructions that you and I as appliation and kernel developers write code in, plus a few that can only be executed while in the PAL mode (PAL == Privileged Architecture Library; it runs in a separate privilege level even higher than kernel privilege). It also has access to process-specific internal registers, i.e. ones not included in the normal register file. If it were microcode, it wouldn't be written in the user-exposed instruction set. It's also very obvious when you're executing PALcode. PALcode is executed *only* when: - an exception occurs - the call_pal instruction is issued Dammit, we're RISC! No microcode! :-) > > I have typically thought of the "SRM is required for NetBSD/alpha" > > along the lines of "OpenFirmware is required for NetBSD/macppc." > > [...] The impression I have now is more like "SRM is required for > > NetBSD/alpha" along the lines of "BIOS is required for Windows." > > The latter is more or less the impression I have too, for what that may > be worth. It's slightly different than that. Windows uses the BIOS to talk to peripherals, generally. It doesn't require the BIOS to simply deal with normal processor operations. BIOS is more analogous to "console software". PALcode really is something different. To be honest, PALcode is one of my favorite features of the Alpha architecture. It allows you as an application or kernel programmer to program on the bare metal with a nice RISC instruction set, yet saves the kernel developer from having to deal with REALLY nasty deatils that one often has to deal with on RISC systems (like, say, the MIPS; how I wish the MIPS had PALcode ... dealing with different variations of the MIPS processor can be a *real* pain sometimes). Plus, the PALcode is written by the processor designers. Those people know how the hardware works, and all of its quirks and gotchas (or, at least, they'd better :-) ... I trust their TLB reloading code more than I would mine, I think :-) -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 20:52:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384F614C4C; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:52:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA18249; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:50:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050450.UAA18249@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: Mike Smith Cc: mjacob@feral.com, Andrew Reilly , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:50:07 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:26:49 -0800 Mike Smith wrote: > If you know something I don't about Alpha Processor Inc's machines, I'd > love to hear it. They are only shipping AlphaBIOS, since there is MILO > code for their systems. Only their 21164 systems, right? Their 21264 (264DP) has an SRM for it! -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 20:53:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424EF14C4C; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA18303; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:52:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050452.UAA18303@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Mike Smith , Andrew Reilly , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, port-alpha@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:52:57 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:29:35 -0800 (PST) Matthew Jacob wrote: > Nope, but I can't speak for their choices or business model. Do they have > a machine that is an absolute *must have* for *BSD? It's not clear that it's really Samsung/API's choice, actually. As I recall, before Compaq bought DEC, DEC wanted to make sure that no company except DEC could produce an Alpha system capable of running Digital UNIX. Hence "no SRM for the Samsung boards". Yet another example of DEC having their head in the wrong place, I suppose. Maybe Compaq will have a better attitude towards the whole thing (sell more Tru64 licenses!). -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 20:56:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from mail.netbsd.org (redmail.netbsd.org [155.53.200.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7538F14C4C for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cgd@netbsd.org) Received: (qmail 15515 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Dec 1999 04:55:46 -0000 To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Jason Thorpe , Wilko Bulte , gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... References: From: cgd@netbsd.org (Chris G. Demetriou) Date: 04 Dec 1999 20:55:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: Matthew Jacob's message of Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:47:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8766yeasvh.fsf@redmail.netbsd.org> Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Jacob writes: > Nope, I don't think so. I pretty much always had been downloading f/w. False. see NetBSD sys/dev/ic/isp.c: revision 1.18 date: 1998/01/28 19:09:24; author: mjacob; state: Exp; lines: +9 -5 Fix for port-alpha/4903- always download f/w unless config flags say no or we have no firmware to download. and/or: http://www.NetBSD.org/cgi-bin/query-pr-single.pl?number=4903 > There was a hop skip and dance with some f/w and Chris's machine > [ ... ] yeah: before that patch, you _weren't_ always downloading the firmware, and the DEC ISP firmware didn't work with your isp driver. 8-) cgd -- Chris Demetriou - cgd@netbsd.org - http://www.netbsd.org/People/Pages/cgd.html Disclaimer: Not speaking for NetBSD, just expressing my own opinion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 21: 4:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BE8153CF; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA18543; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:04:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050504.VAA18543@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Wilko Bulte , gallatin@cs.duke.edu, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISP firmware compiled in as a default.... Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 21:04:16 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:47:18 -0800 (PST) Matthew Jacob wrote: > Nope, I don't think so. I pretty much always had been downloading f/w. > There was a hop skip and dance with some f/w and Chris's machine and some > stupid ass bugs in 7.55 f/w where you'd tell it to renegotiate and then > ask it what it had done and it lied and gave back random values. Actually, you used to compare "present firmware rev" with "driver firmware rev" and load the driver firmware if it was "newwer". Version numbering inconsistencies changed that policy... at least is how I remember it. > Nope- the netbsd changes list is too hard to read. Uh, okay, whatever. -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 22:30: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from most.weird.com (most.weird.com [204.92.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7306151A8 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:30:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from woods@most.weird.com) Received: (1409 bytes) by most.weird.com via sendmail with P:stdio/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for alpha@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:29:15 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.110-Pre 1999-Oct-27 #9 built 1999-Dec-2) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:29:15 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: woods@most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods) To: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199912050441.UAA18061@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> References: <199912050441.UAA18061@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.74 under Emacs 20.3.1 Reply-To: port-alpha@NetBSD.ORG (NetBSD/alpha Discussion List), alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ On Saturday, December 4, 1999 at 20:41:01 (-0800), Jason Thorpe wrote: ] > Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) > > Ah! But it's not microcode! :-) > > It's written in the same instructions that you and I as appliation > and kernel developers write code in, plus a few that can only be > executed while in the PAL mode (PAL == Privileged Architecture Library; > it runs in a separate privilege level even higher than kernel privilege). Oh, thankyouthankyouthankyou! I've been brain-stuck on the thought that "PAL" had something to do with programmable array logic! Silly me! ;-) -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP Planix, Inc. ; Secrets of the Weird To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 23: 9: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA [132.206.78.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7644915177 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:09:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mouse@Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA) Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18406; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 02:08:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 02:08:43 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <199912050708.CAA18406@Twig.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> [...my misunderstanding of what PALcode is...] > [...thorpej explaining...] > To be honest, PALcode is one of my favorite features of the Alpha > architecture. [...] Plus, the PALcode is written by the processor > designers. Those people know how the hardware works, and all of its > quirks and gotchas (or, at least, they'd better :-) ... I trust their > TLB reloading code more than I would mine, I think :-) Yeah, I can see that. And the more I learn about it, the more I like it - as a feature of the architecture. The problem is with the implementation: when you can't *get* "their TLB reloading code", you don't have enough info to write your own. :-( Growl. der Mouse mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Dec 4 23:23:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.33.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94E6151AA for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from lestat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA19932; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:22:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912050722.XAA19932@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> To: der Mouse Cc: port-alpha@netbsd.org, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q: Compaq, *BSD and 'Linux-only' AlphaBIOS (fwd) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 23:22:00 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Dec 1999 02:08:43 -0500 (EST) der Mouse wrote: > The problem is with the implementation: when you can't *get* "their TLB > reloading code", you don't have enough info to write your own. :-( Okay, to nit-pick... :-) For the processor-specific bits, this is "easy"; all of the processor manuals are available. So, I could write my own TLB reloading code if I felt so inclined :-) The "hard" part is the model-specific bits. This means that I can't write my own interrupt routing code, etc. All the stuff that differs between models (even models with the same core logic). There's an amusing story related to this... basically, since interrupts were just about the *only* thing not specified in the architecture, apparently rivalry between groups within DEC (i.e. the groups working on the individual systems) resulted in the proliferation of different interrupt schemes we see today on the various systypes. I mean, really.. Look at the AlphaServer 1000 vs. 1000A. They differ by, like, the interrupt controller they use. How funny is that?! :-) -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message