From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 2:21: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3972214BF6; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 02:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p21-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.118]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id SAA06264; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:20:35 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37F71F7F.3C59FFEB@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 18:18:55 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthias Buelow Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ftp is not fetch References: <19991003072219.F728@altair.mayn.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthias Buelow wrote: > > BTW.. although risking to be off-topic by miles, I always liked the way > how NetBSD's ftp(1) (since 1.4 or so) implemented http and ftp URL > fetching and thus eliminated the need for a fetch(1) command. > Couldn't the FreeBSD ftp(1) be enhanced that way, [ObTopic, slime slime] > to use fetch(3) for that purpose? ftp(1) is an ftp client. fetch(1) is file fetching program. They both do things that the other don't. We don't add things to programs that do not belong in the program. Http handling does not belong in ftp(1). This has been convered before. Search the archives. Also, cease and desist, citizen, or the ensuing flame war will turn you into a fine mist. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Rule 69: Do unto other's code as you'd have it done unto yours To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 2:48:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337D314C1D for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 02:48:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.198.10]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6161; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:48:09 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24409; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:41:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:41:13 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Jason Nordwick Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase Message-ID: <19991003114113.A24384@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19991001225126.53878.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991001225126.53878.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991002 04:18], Jason Nordwick (nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu) wrote: >This wouldn't seem -hackers worthy, except I offfered to try to port >it to freebsd-current. I think the things you might need to have [the tools as they called it] might be handy to know. And I think this is more hackers material. >I thought that this would be interesting to people and that I might be able >to get some advice from around here. Following is the email thread that >happened between Scott Draeker (president of Loki) and Sam Lantinga >(Lead Programmer at Loki). After that is the official offer letter >with the library specifications (such as what sound library is used and >graphics packages). If anybody has any suggestions it would help me >greatly. I have already started looking at the sound library, since that it >my weekest area. Ok, what you want to bring along is a CURRENT box. With gmake, autoconf, automake, libtool installed just to be sure that you have them ;) Also, for the sound aspects under FreeBSD you should probably speak to Cameron Grant who did most of the newpcm work under FreeBSD-CURRENT. You of course want to be sure you have a complete /usr/src available on the machine and probably another copy to work on or a repository from which you can check out the appropriate stuff. Your best/handiest editor should also be installed of course together with any tools you use for development. Colourised diff, various things from /usr/ports/devel, etc. Hope this gives at least a start for you. And I hope others will give you a hand towards some of the innards of the kernel with which they have experience. Hope this helps, -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Fame is the perfume of heroic deeds. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 4:18:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7A014D70; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 04:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.143]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3AF3; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:18:14 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24534; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:16:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:16:14 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Martin Blapp Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, cvs-committers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: umount(8) or unmount(2) ? Message-ID: <19991003131614.B24384@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991003 04:18], Martin Blapp (mb@imp.ch) wrote: > >Since about 5 weeks I'm working on sanity checks and bug fixes >for umount(8), mount(8) and mount_xxx(8). Poul Henning told >me to mail to cvs-committers too, cause many clued people read it. And don't bother to read -hackers. >You'll find my patch and the readme for it on : > >http://www.attic.ch/patches/MOUNTPATCH-CURRENT-02101999-01 >http://www.attic.ch/patches/MOUNTPATCH-README > >I've implemented this as an idea from phk and it works very well. If we >unmount a hanged nfs-mount - it hangs no in kernel (if busy), not in >userland. This is a little step forward. Some side-effects of this >part of my patch are, that some other PR's are fixed too : > >o [1999/02/03] bin/9893 NFS umount of regular file impossible >s [1995/11/27] bin/841 stale nfs mounts cannot be umounted People who think this is about NFS mounting only have obviously not read the README on the sire Martin supplied. I urge a person who bothers to comment on this, should read the README first and [politely] discuss any points with Martin on this list. For all I know about this subject I can at least say I like the proposed sanity-checks. Sanity-checking is something we can always use. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Fame is the perfume of heroic deeds. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 4:28:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8589114D70; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 04:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id NAA10210; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:25:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19991003132554.A9701@foobar.franken.de> Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:25:54 +0200 From: Harold Gutch To: Matthias Buelow , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail References: <19991003072219.F728@altair.mayn.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19991003072219.F728@altair.mayn.de>; from Matthias Buelow on Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 07:22:19AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 07:22:19AM +0200, Matthias Buelow wrote: > BTW.. although risking to be off-topic by miles, I always liked the way > how NetBSD's ftp(1) (since 1.4 or so) implemented http and ftp URL > fetching and thus eliminated the need for a fetch(1) command. > Couldn't the FreeBSD ftp(1) be enhanced that way, [ObTopic, slime slime] > to use fetch(3) for that purpose? > > (Or just "steal" the NetBSD implementation, FreeBSD aren't the Knights > who say NIH, I would hope.) > NetBSD's ftp(1), was stolen^Wadded to FreeBSD quite a while ago, I think it happened around 2.2.2. Our ftp(1) has HTTP and FTP-support since then. It doesn't use fetch(3) though, but I guess one can live with that :). bye, Harold -- Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein. Wed Mar 4 04:53:33 CET 1998 #unix, ircnet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 4:48:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2910F14D18; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 04:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.143]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB3AFE; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:48:18 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24621; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:39:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:39:55 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, cvs-committers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A bike shed (any colour will do) on greener grass... Message-ID: <19991003133954.B24242@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <18238.938873650.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <18238.938873650.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991002 20:18], Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@freebsd.org) wrote: >My last pamphlet was sufficiently well received that I was not >scared away from sending another one, and today I have the time >and inclination to do so. I am glad you took the time to write this out. I only wish more people would communicate more verbally about the what and whatnot. >The thing which have triggered me this time is the "sleep(1) should >do fractional seconds" thread, which have pestered our lives for >many days now, it's probably already a couple of weeks, I can't >even be bothered to check. > >To those of you who have missed this particular thread: Congratulations. I dare ask where this thread took place. Again I think it took place on cvs-committers. >It was a proposal to make sleep(1) DTRT if given a non-integer >argument that set this particular grass-fire off. I'm not going >to say anymore about it than that, because it is a much smaller >item than one would expect from the length of the thread, and it >has already received far more attention than some of the *problems* >we have around here. Problems at hand [some of which were enspired to me by Marcel Moolenaar]: - cross compilation, this obviously does not work. - lack of communication between the coders towards the -doc team. Need I dare say that pci_read_config, a lot of newbus stuff and god knows what else is still lacking from the documentation. I am working on it, but there's only so much I can grasp, understand and document each day. - lack of communication of the indivudual developers amongst each other. I have seen patches floating around and I have seen NIL comments when asked for testing, comments and what not. One example were Marcel's sig_t changes. >The sleep(1) saga is the most blatant example of a bike shed >discussion we have had ever in FreeBSD. The proposal was well >thought out, we would gain compatibility with OpenBSD and NetBSD, >and still be fully compatible with any code anyone ever wrote. > >Yet so many objections, proposals and changes were raised and >launched that one would think the change would have plugged all >the holes in swiss cheese or changed the taste of Coca Cola or >something similar serious. [snip bike shed analogy] >In Denmark we call it "setting your fingerprint". It is about >personal pride and prestige, it is about being able to point >somewhere and say "There! *I* did that." It is a strong trait in >politicians, but present in most people given the chance. Just >think about footsteps in wet cement. Ego, cherishing `babies' and the likes is something which doesn't work in commercial environment, and probably even less so in open source environments. >I bow my head in respect to the original proposer because he stuck >to his guns through this carpet blanking from the peanut gallery, >and the change is in our tree today. I would have turned my back >and walked away after less than a handful of messages in that >thread. Problems which also arise is that people divert from the topics which are at hand. I don't know anything about the thread and I somewhat refuse to dig through the committers archive by means of ftp in order to just read the thread, because I still believe that these kind of things should have been discussed on the appropriate lists. >And that brings me, as I promised earlier, to why I am not subscribed >to -hackers: > >I un-subscribed from -hackers several years ago, because I could >not keep up with the email load. Since then I have dropped off >several other lists as well for the very same reason. The load itself might not be the burden if only the signal-to-noise ration would be a lot better. A lot of the topics at hand should've been made to questions. >And I still get a lot of email. A lot of it gets routed to /dev/null >by filters: People like Brett Glass will never make it onto my >screen, commits to documents in languages I don't understand >likewise, commits to ports as such. All these things and more go >the winter way without me ever even knowing about it. > >This is where the greener grass comes into the picture: > >I wish we could reduce the amount of noise in our lists and I wish >we could let people build a bike shed every so often, and I don't >really care what colour they paint it. > >The first of these wishes is about being civil, sensitive and >intelligent in our use of email. > >If I could concisely and precisely define a set of criteria for >when one should and when one should not reply to an email so that >everybody would agree and abide by it, I would be a happy man, but >I am too wise to even attempt that. > >But let me suggest a few pop-up windows I would like to see >mail-programs implement whenever people send or reply to email >to the lists they want me to subscribe to: [fun, but somewhat non-practical pop-up windows removed] >The second part of my wish is more emotional. Obviously, the >capacities we had manning the unfriendly fire in the sleep(1) >thread, despite their many years with the project, never cared >enough to do this tiny deed, so why are they suddenly so enflamed >by somebody else so much their junior doing it ? > >I wish I knew. I can give an example. This is just a very, very clear example of what we in dutch call the best sailors are on the shore. I mean, it is easy to criticise and say NIH, while in all fairness people don't bother to offer hints or new diffs to counter the `mistakes' the originator made. >I do know that reasoning will have no power to stop such "reactionaire >conservatism". It may be that these people are frustrated about >their own lack of tangible contribution lately or it may be a bad >case of "we're old and grumpy, WE know how youth should behave". > >Either way it is very unproductive for the project, but I have no >suggestions for how to stop it. The best I can suggest is to refrain >from fuelling the monsters that lurk in the mailing lists: Ignore >them, don't answer them, forget they're there. Which might be `fun' considering that those who want to progress test, review and commit and see their changes backed out the same minute they are committed to the tree. Why? I do not know. Any request for rationality often gets brought back to the case `we don't used to do that'. Times are changing people. A healthy dose of reviewing is indeed good, but do it beforehand. >I hope we can get a stronger and broader base of contributors in >FreeBSD, and I hope we together can prevent the grumpy old men >and the Brett Glasses of the world from chewing them up, spitting >them out and scaring them away before they ever get a leg to the >ground. At current, I can very much understand the reluctance of `new/young' coders to start work on the system only to see their efforts get trampled upon by `older/more experienced/more rusted shut' people who like it as it is and don't want innovation to hit the system, or otherwise don't seem to be able to offer a mentor-like/helping-hand function towards these new people. >For the people who have been lurking out there, scared away from >participating by the gargoyles: I can only apologise and encourage >you to try anyway, this is not the way I want the environment in >the project to be. I cast my voice/vote with Poul on this. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Fame is the perfume of heroic deeds. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 4:53:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rp-plus.de (clubserv.rp-online.de [149.221.232.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB48A14D18 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 04:53:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (as15-225.rp-plus.de [149.221.237.225]) by mail.rp-plus.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA13075 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:53:34 +0200 (METDST) Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00816 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:53:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04596 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:55:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) From: Alexander Langer Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:55:09 +0200 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: vis(3), unvis(3), HTTP-URIs and libfetch Message-ID: <19991003135509.A4465@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6" X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello! in fetch(3) we read: BUGS No attempt is made to encode spaces etc. within URLs. Spaces in the docu- ment part of an URLshould be replaced with "%20" in HTTP URLs and "\ " in FTP URLs. I've started this encoding. DES told me to implement this in vis(3). This is done by the attached patch and works here. Example: /bla bla/~tst/foo?test=foo+bar&bla=$string becomes /bla%20bla/%7Etest/foo?test=foo+bar&bla=$string in a minimal application. I added a new style const, VIS_HTTPSTYLE (as VIS_CSTYLE) to vis.h, patch is also attached. So libfetch can use vis(3) with the VIS_HTTPSTYLE flag to encode HTTP-URIs, FTP-encoding could be added later easily, too. But now I'm getting problems, that's why I write here: unvis(3) wants to decode HTTPSTYLE strings. while this is no problem for unvis(), I cannot add this to int strunvis(char *dst, const char *src) because strunvis() really misses a flag param to tell it, how to decode. I need a new function - a new name. I propose something like int strunvisx(char *dst, const char *src, int flag); strunvisx (or what the name will be) checks the flag. If it is VIS_HTTPSTYLE it will use unvis() with the VIS_HTTPSTYLE flag to decode the string. If it is VIS_FTPSTYLE (implemented later), it'll use unvis() with VIS_FTPSTYLE. In every other case strunvisx() just calls strunvis(). Alex -- I doubt, therefore I might be. --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vis.c.diff" --- /usr/src/lib/libc/gen/vis.c Fri Jul 12 20:54:15 1996 +++ vis.c Sat Oct 2 20:20:17 1999 @@ -52,6 +52,21 @@ register int flag; { c = (unsigned char)c; + + if (flag & VIS_HTTPSTYLE) { + if (!((c >= '0' && c <= '9') || (c >= 'A' && c <= 'Z') + || (c >= 'a' && c <= 'z') || c == '$' || c == '-' + || c == '_' || c == '\'' || c == '+' || c == '!' || + c == '(' || c == ')' || c == ',' || c == '"' || + c == ';' || c == '/' || c == '?' || c == ':' || + c == '@' || c == '&' || c == '=' || c == '+')) { + *dst++ = '%'; + snprintf(dst, 4, (c < 16 ? "0%X" : "%X"), c); + dst += 2; + goto done; + } + } + if (isgraph(c) || ((flag & VIS_SP) == 0 && c == ' ') || ((flag & VIS_TAB) == 0 && c == '\t') || --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vis.h.diff" --- /usr/src/include/vis.h Sun Aug 29 16:38:58 1999 +++ vis.h Sun Oct 3 13:45:00 1999 @@ -64,6 +64,7 @@ * other */ #define VIS_NOSLASH 0x40 /* inhibit printing '\' */ +#define VIS_HTTPSTYLE 0x80 /* http-style escape % HEX HEX */ /* * unvis return codes --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 9:50:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AAD214EA3 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by narnia.plutotech.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) id KAA21687; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:40:24 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:40:24 -0600 (MDT) From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Message-Id: <199910031640.KAA21687@narnia.plutotech.com> To: jin@george.lbl.gov Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SCSI disk naming problem X-Newsgroups: pluto.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <199910011710.KAA18313@george.lbl.gov> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <199910011710.KAA18313@george.lbl.gov> you wrote: > Current FreeBSD SCSi disk naming mechanism is problem for using more than > one disks in the chain during the disk failure. > > The problem is that the name is not fixed with is SCSI ID. e.g., > if one disk is presented in the chain, regardless its SCSI ID, it is > always named "da0"; ... > Is there problem with fixed disk naming mechanism? 'Path based names' do not deal with systems that have multiple paths to the same device. For example, if I have two host adapters talking on the same bus for redundancy, which name to I give to the devices on the bus? -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 9:56:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles556.castles.com [208.214.165.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2E0153F0 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:56:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06411; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:48:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910031648.JAA06411@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: jin@george.lbl.gov, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SCSI disk naming problem In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Oct 1999 10:40:24 MDT." <199910031640.KAA21687@narnia.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 09:48:42 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Is there problem with fixed disk naming mechanism? > > 'Path based names' do not deal with systems that have multiple > paths to the same device. For example, if I have two host adapters > talking on the same bus for redundancy, which name to I give to the > devices on the bus? That depends on how you're handling the redundancy; either you do it inside the kernel in which case the resulting device has a virtual path, or you do it outside in which case you have two paths which point to the same device. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 10:15: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CA814DB5 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@pluto.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id LAA30518; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:13:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gibbs) From: Justin Gibbs Message-Id: <199910031713.LAA30518@pluto.plutotech.com> Subject: Re: SCSI disk naming problem In-Reply-To: <199910031648.JAA06411@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Oct 3, 1999 9:48:42 am" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:13:49 -0600 (MDT) Cc: jin@george.lbl.gov, hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > 'Path based names' do not deal with systems that have multiple > > paths to the same device. For example, if I have two host adapters > > talking on the same bus for redundancy, which name to I give to the > > devices on the bus? > > That depends on how you're handling the redundancy; either you do it > inside the kernel in which case the resulting device has a virtual > path, or you do it outside in which case you have two paths which point > to the same device. I don't see how it helps to have a virtual path of any kind. In the case of fully connected I/O, everything would have a virual path and the path information would be useless to the user. I much prefer the idea of exporting each unique device to the user, allowing them to query path information and perhaps select path use behavior, but default to having the peripheral driver for the device handle most routing behavior automagically. I would expect most people to want the system to fail-over to anouther route to the device instead of requiring manual intervention on the part of the process using that device. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 10:16:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from www.crb-web.com (ns1.crb-web.com [209.70.120.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FF69153A9 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wayne@crb.crb-web.com) Received: (qmail 4965 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Oct 1999 17:28:13 -0000 Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:28:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Wayne Cuddy Reply-To: wayne@crb-web.com To: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: A bike shed (any colour will do) on greener grass... In-Reply-To: <19991003133954.B24242@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:39:55 +0200 > From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai > To: Poul-Henning Kamp > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, cvs-committers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: A bike shed (any colour will do) on greener grass... > [........] > > At current, I can very much understand the reluctance of `new/young' > coders to start work on the system only to see their efforts get > trampled upon by `older/more experienced/more rusted shut' people who > like it as it is and don't want innovation to hit the system, or > otherwise don't seem to be able to offer a mentor-like/helping-hand > function towards these new people. > > > -- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl > The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project > Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best > Fame is the perfume of heroic deeds. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > As a newbie to kernel programming, who might need a little help and guidance, the above is certainly true. I can attest to the fact that I have a certain reluctance to post some of my questions to this list(hackers). I have posted some in the past, many of which have gone unanswered, to which I know answers exists. This is certainly not the case in all situations. Note: I partially feel that OS band X receives a much higher level of developer contribution than FreeBSD... This is not meant the start a flame war or OS quality debate... MHO Wayne To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 10:35:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from arnold.neland.dk (mail.neland.dk [194.255.12.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1A114CEA; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leifn@neland.dk) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arnold.neland.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA56514; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:34:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from leifn@neland.dk) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:34:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Leif Neland To: Barry Irwin Cc: Matthias Buelow , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Fetch/wget/ftp: How to do a recursive ftp-get? In-Reply-To: <19991003074934.C47240@rucus.ru.ac.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > BTW.. although risking to be off-topic by miles, I always liked the way > > how NetBSD's ftp(1) (since 1.4 or so) implemented http and ftp URL > > fetching and thus eliminated the need for a fetch(1) command. > > Couldn't the FreeBSD ftp(1) be enhanced that way, [ObTopic, slime slime] > > to use fetch(3) for that purpose? > > This is where a useful tool like wget comes into play. Wget can be pretty > much used as an automated replacement for fetch, or FTP URL retrieval. Can > also be plugged into the whole ports system so that it can retrieve the > ports data packages. > But which tool can do a command-line, recursive ftp-get? wget can't, because it does not create subdirs below the one specified, i.e. if I do a wget -r ftp://webmaster:password@webserver.my.dom/htdocs/tree, it will create the dir webserver.my.dom/htdocs/tree, but not any subdomains to that. Leif To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 11:30: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles530.castles.com [208.214.165.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8413A15055 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:30:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06823; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910031822.LAA06823@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Justin Gibbs Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SCSI disk naming problem In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:13:49 MDT." <199910031713.LAA30518@pluto.plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:22:37 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > 'Path based names' do not deal with systems that have multiple > > > paths to the same device. For example, if I have two host adapters > > > talking on the same bus for redundancy, which name to I give to the > > > devices on the bus? > > > > That depends on how you're handling the redundancy; either you do it > > inside the kernel in which case the resulting device has a virtual > > path, or you do it outside in which case you have two paths which point > > to the same device. > > I don't see how it helps to have a virtual path of any kind. It's the logical way to hide the physical path information from the consumer if you're predicating that path information is the sole identifier for the device. In the context of "reliable physical paths" it serves the same basic purpose as using a virtual name for a mirrored disk array; you have a virtual entity that is transparently reliably backed. > In the > case of fully connected I/O, everything would have a virual path and > the path information would be useless to the user. I much prefer the > idea of exporting each unique device to the user, allowing them to > query path information and perhaps select path use behavior, but > default to having the peripheral driver for the device handle most > routing behavior automagically. In other words, you prefer fully virtual paths. ('da0' is a virtual path, for example.) > I would expect most people to want > the system to fail-over to anouther route to the device instead of > requiring manual intervention on the part of the process using that > device. Naturally, which is where the virtual path comes into it. The argument that's being proposed at the moment is just that where there is a 1:1 mapping between the virtual and physical paths the physical path should be exposed for user convenience. Personally I'd prefer an option to camcontrol that would allow you to recover the physical path(s) and just leave it at that. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 11:40:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles530.castles.com [208.214.165.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E88F14D91 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:40:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06882; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910031833.LAA06882@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: wayne@crb-web.com Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Oct 1999 13:28:13 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:33:24 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As a newbie to kernel programming, who might need a little help and guidance, > the above is certainly true. I can attest to the fact that I have a certain > reluctance to post some of my questions to this list(hackers). I have posted > some in the past, many of which have gone unanswered, to which I know answers > exists. This is certainly not the case in all situations. Are you willing to accept that you may have been judged "not worth the effort" on the content of your questions, or are we going to have another flamewar about whether we should be opening a developers' kindergarten? There is no sense in wasting the time of one informed developer to help one uninformed developer; this is a bad tradeoff unless the uninformed developer is showing signs of promise. The only way to assess this is to look at the questions they ask and the context they're asking them from. Nobody wants to answer one obvious question if there's any chance at all that the questioner will latch onto them and demand answers for dozens more - this isn't "helping someone", it's "doing their work for free". So, regardless of whether you've asked a question or not, you need to understand that the onus rests solely on yourself to pursue the answer. They're all there in the code, where everyone else that you're asking has already found them. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 12: 4:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4F014DE6 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 12:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11651 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:04:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:04:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199910031904.VAA11651@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fetch/wget/ftp: How to do a recursive ftp-get? Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Leif Neland wrote in list.freebsd-hackers: > > This is where a useful tool like wget comes into play. Wget can be pretty > > much used as an automated replacement for fetch, or FTP URL retrieval. Can > > also be plugged into the whole ports system so that it can retrieve the > > ports data packages. > > But which tool can do a command-line, recursive ftp-get? wget can't, > because it does not create subdirs below the one specified, i.e. if I do > a wget -r ftp://webmaster:password@webserver.my.dom/htdocs/tree, it will > create the dir webserver.my.dom/htdocs/tree, but not any subdomains to > that. /usr/ports/ftp/omi (was moved from /usr/ports/net a few weeks ago). omi -s webserver.my.dom -r /htdocs/tree -l /local/tree \ -u webmaster -e password Note that it is a bad idea to use real passwords in that way, because others can see them in the `ps` output. You can put the password in your ~/.omirc, for example (and make sure it has permissions 600). Teaching omi to accept URL syntax is on my to-do list. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 14:29:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sparc.sweb.com (ip-150-253.gw.total-web.net [209.186.150.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3428114C9D; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zaph0d@sparc.sweb.com) Received: from localhost by sparc.sweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA13689; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 17:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 17:22:04 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Leif Neland Cc: Barry Irwin , Matthias Buelow , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fetch/wget/ftp: How to do a recursive ftp-get? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Personally, for recursive gets - I love yafc. It rocks. I also like the interface.. and I could be wrong but I believe it supports usage of the ftp:// directives. On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Leif Neland wrote: > > > > > BTW.. although risking to be off-topic by miles, I always liked the way > > > how NetBSD's ftp(1) (since 1.4 or so) implemented http and ftp URL > > > fetching and thus eliminated the need for a fetch(1) command. > > > Couldn't the FreeBSD ftp(1) be enhanced that way, [ObTopic, slime slime] > > > to use fetch(3) for that purpose? > > > > This is where a useful tool like wget comes into play. Wget can be pretty > > much used as an automated replacement for fetch, or FTP URL retrieval. Can > > also be plugged into the whole ports system so that it can retrieve the > > ports data packages. > > > > But which tool can do a command-line, recursive ftp-get? wget can't, > because it does not create subdirs below the one specified, i.e. if I do > a wget -r ftp://webmaster:password@webserver.my.dom/htdocs/tree, it will > create the dir webserver.my.dom/htdocs/tree, but not any subdomains to > that. > > Leif > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 14:52:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB51D14D6D; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:52:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA62146; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:52:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:52:32 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Matthias Buelow , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp is not fetch Message-ID: <19991003145232.B56377@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <19991003072219.F728@altair.mayn.de> <37F71F7F.3C59FFEB@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <37F71F7F.3C59FFEB@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 06:18:55PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 06:18:55PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > that do not belong in the program. Http handling does not belong in > ftp(1). On the other hand, it is there. wopr:~$ ftp http://localhost/index.html Requesting http://localhost/index.html 100% |**************************************************| 1408 00:00 ETA Successfully retrieved file. -- Matthew Hunt * Inertia is a property http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * of matter. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 15:48:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from www.crb-web.com (ns1.crb-web.com [209.70.120.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0145414D60 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:48:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wayne@crb.crb-web.com) Received: (qmail 6960 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Oct 1999 23:00:20 -0000 Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:00:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Wayne Cuddy Reply-To: wayne@crb-web.com Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) In-Reply-To: <199910031833.LAA06882@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Mike Smith wrote: > Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:33:24 -0700 > From: Mike Smith > To: wayne@crb-web.com > Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List > Subject: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) > > > As a newbie to kernel programming, who might need a little help and guidance, > > the above is certainly true. I can attest to the fact that I have a certain > > reluctance to post some of my questions to this list(hackers). I have posted > > some in the past, many of which have gone unanswered, to which I know answers > > exists. This is certainly not the case in all situations. > > Are you willing to accept that you may have been judged "not worth the > effort" on the content of your questions, or are we going to have Yes I am. > another flamewar about whether we should be opening a developers' > kindergarten? Oh. Ok if this is case where are the guidelines as to what is "worth the effort?" This determination is obviously relative. > > There is no sense in wasting the time of one informed developer to help > one uninformed developer; this is a bad tradeoff unless the uninformed > developer is showing signs of promise. The only way to assess this is > to look at the questions they ask and the context they're asking them > from. Nobody wants to answer one obvious question if there's any > chance at all that the questioner will latch onto them and demand > answers for dozens more - this isn't "helping someone", it's "doing > their work for free". You are right I jumped to learning about FreeBSD kernel development, which I don't get paid for in any way, so that I could have someone else do it... Try to be a little reasonable here, I would not be here if I did not want to learn. Which means doing my own work. I would be hard pressed to read the list for a day and not find a demeaning or wasteful comment from some of the developers on this list. So apparently some people do have time negative responses. Does a helpful response, even a "stupid" one take that much time? I did realize how busy you were. > > So, regardless of whether you've asked a question or not, you need to > understand that the onus rests solely on yourself to pursue the answer. > They're all there in the code, where everyone else that you're asking > has already found them. This is absolutely correct and in many cases the most inefficient way to go. It is certainly helpful to answer a question that is on the tip of one's tongue rather than wading through lines of code especially if it is holding up the work of others. However you are correct definitive answers are in the code... all 1 million+ lines.. > > -- > \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith > \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > My sincere apologies if anyone feels that I am unnecessarily venting on this list. I will not spend any more time on this topic. Wayne To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 19: 0:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from filer4.isc.rit.edu (filer4.isc.rit.edu [129.21.3.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C9914D84 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcptch@osfmail.isc.rit.edu) Received: from grace ("port 2804"@[129.21.3.102]) by osfmail.isc.rit.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #21576) with SMTP id <0FIZ000LXZNJA6@osfmail.isc.rit.edu> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 18:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by grace (5.65v4.0/1.1.19.2/21Sep98-0910AM) id AA02937; Sat, 02 Oct 1999 18:54:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 18:54:54 -0400 From: Jon Parise Subject: Re: Huge Binaries.. In-reply-to: <19991002191512.A78716@keltia.freenix.fr>; from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr on Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 07:15:12PM +0200 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-followup-to: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <19991002185454.A2925@osfmail.isc.rit.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i X-Operating-System: OSF1 V4.0 (alpha) References: <19991001220931.A71530@keltia.freenix.fr> <19991002121509.A355@frolic.no-support.loc> <19991002191512.A78716@keltia.freenix.fr> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 07:15:12PM +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > Wow! I didn't know that. I'll have a look. Anyone has already done the work of > running Mutt from Netscape ? :-) http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/brian_winters/mutt/ -- Jon Parise (parise@pobox.com) . Rochester Inst. of Technology http://www.pobox.com/~parise/ : Computer Science House Member To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 19:22:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from www.crb-web.com (ns1.crb-web.com [209.70.120.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34C2F14D59 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:22:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wayne@crb.crb-web.com) Received: (qmail 8340 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Oct 1999 02:34:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 22:34:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Wayne Cuddy Reply-To: wayne@crb-web.com To: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) In-Reply-To: <199910040108.SAA08607@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Mike Smith wrote: > Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 18:08:39 -0700 > From: Mike Smith > To: wayne@crb-web.com > Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) > > > > > As a newbie to kernel programming, who might need a little help and guidance, > > > > the above is certainly true. I can attest to the fact that I have a certain > > > > reluctance to post some of my questions to this list(hackers). I have posted > > > > some in the past, many of which have gone unanswered, to which I know answers > > > > exists. This is certainly not the case in all situations. > > > > > > Are you willing to accept that you may have been judged "not worth the > > > effort" on the content of your questions, or are we going to have > > Yes I am. > > Cool. Note the different between "not worth" and "never will be worth". > > > > another flamewar about whether we should be opening a developers' > > > kindergarten? > > Oh. Ok if this is case where are the guidelines as to what is "worth the > > effort?" This determination is obviously relative. > > Not so much "relative" as subjective (and thus impossible to document). > Use your common sense - if you don't get any replies, it's obvious that > you haven't motivated anyone to reply. It's not that the people you're > trying to wish actively dislike you or want to discourage you. > > > > There is no sense in wasting the time of one informed developer to help > > > one uninformed developer; this is a bad tradeoff unless the uninformed > > > developer is showing signs of promise. The only way to assess this is > > > to look at the questions they ask and the context they're asking them > > > from. Nobody wants to answer one obvious question if there's any > > > chance at all that the questioner will latch onto them and demand > > > answers for dozens more - this isn't "helping someone", it's "doing > > > their work for free". > > You are right I jumped to learning about FreeBSD kernel development, which I > > don't get paid for in any way, so that I could have someone else do it... > > Try to be a little reasonable here, I would not be here if I did not want to > > learn. Which means doing my own work. > > Exactly. But sniping at the readership here for not answering your > messages, or for being continually rude isn't "doing your own work", > it's being childish and blind. > > > I would be hard pressed to read the list for a day and not find a demeaning or > > wasteful comment from some of the developers on this list. So apparently some > > people do have time negative responses. > > This is a popular throwaway line, but not really accurate. > > > Does a helpful response, even a "stupid" one take that much time? I did > > realize how busy you were. > > Yes! Buying into answering one question usefully can involve teaching > you a dozen things before you will understand it. What may seem like a > helpful but flippant response is typically taken as an insult simply > because the average asker is preconditioned from hearing dribble like > your paragraph above into assuming that anything other than a book for > an answer is "dismissal". > > > > So, regardless of whether you've asked a question or not, you need to > > > understand that the onus rests solely on yourself to pursue the answer. > > > They're all there in the code, where everyone else that you're asking > > > has already found them. > > This is absolutely correct and in many cases the most inefficient way to go. > > Crap. It's the most _efficient_ way in terms of return on effort > invested. > > > It is certainly helpful to answer a question that is on the tip of one's > > tongue rather than wading through lines of code especially if it is holding > > up the work of others. > > You make it sound like these "answers" are three-word phrases; as > though someone could just say a few tiny words to you and all would be > clear. If it was that simple, you'd have an answer. > > What irritates me the most is that you and others in your position > won't accept the fact that things are complicated. Oh no, it has to be > these evil nasty people that don't want you to learn. Yeah. That's it. You sure know a lot about me! Are you making these assumptions about me and "others like me" based on what I am posting now or previous postings? I am really sorry you are irritated. > > Too much Joe McCarthy and the X-Files for you, I think. Thanks I will try not to watch so much TV. > > > However you are correct definitive answers are in the > > code... all 1 million+ lines.. > > Correct. Where do you think the rest of us found our answers? What > makes you think we have yours? Pass the bar or find something else > that you _can_ do. I can't draw. I'm a terrible musician. Do I > complain that the artists are keeping all the secrets of easy drawing > to themselves? Do I whine that nobody will just teach me how to play > well, rather than telling me to go back to basics and work through a > million pages of lame tutorials, scales, and so forth? > > There's no magic bullet. Deal with it. How did I not get though life without your words of wisdom? > > -- > \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith > \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 23:41:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.128.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C830714DB0 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22250; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:41:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00521; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:25:17 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910040625.HAA00521@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jaye Mathisen Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Speeding up time... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Sep 1999 01:12:26 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:25:17 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I would like to play around with some y2k testing. > > While setting dates and such works, I'd really like to > be able to disable xntpd, and have time move faster. So > I could set the date to 12/28/99 or somesuch, and > have time run at 4:1 or 10:1, or something that lets > me run through a few days of operation in a few hours... > > > Is there an obviously trivial way to do this? I think you can get away with simply tweaking machdep.i8254_freq (if you're using that counter that is). -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 23:41:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.128.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA6B14E3A; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22259; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:41:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00420; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:03:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910040603.HAA00420@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Daniel Hilevich" Cc: "John Hay" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, ppp/sync project Subject: Re: A bug in the sppp driver? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:50:47 BST." <049401bf0b20$e3621c20$2e00a8c0@nt46daniel> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:03:51 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Are you busy with a leased line driver or a dialup/isdn kind of driver? > > I have been busy fixing sppp to work properly with leased line drivers > > again, but am not finished with it yet. :-/ Hopefully I won't break > > the isdn handling at the same time. > > > > I'm writing this pseudo driver with lots of interfaces. Each interface can > be configured to work with a variety of protocols. Currently I'm working on > the connection to the PPP protocol. [.....] You may want to mention this to phk (cc'd). He's done some uncommitted work with a standardised synchronous device interface. The bit I'm interested in is the ioctl() that'll let me know it's a sync device... then ppp/tty.c:tty_Create() can automatically talk to it properly :-) -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 23:41:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.128.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5DB315068 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:41:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22253; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:41:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00448; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:12:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910040612.HAA00448@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Dennis Cc: W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A bug in the sppp driver? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:46:30 EDT." <199909301648.MAA12186@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:12:24 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > At 05:54 AM 9/30/99 -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > >> doing state machines with switch statements is a big mess. > > > >Still, you'll find a lot of them around. Do you have a favored > >technique for coding complex state machines? (I'm a collector :) > > > yes, state tables. Clean and easy to modify. IMHO state tables are fine in theory. The problem is that the ``do this'' bit sometimes needs to be split into two - one before the state change and one after, and that same bit is frequently ``almost the same'' as the ``do this'' bit for another transition. Once you start coding it, you start to bring the common bits of code into common routines, and eventually end up actually passing the from/to states into those functions. I found that redesigning the ppp(8) state machine eventually ended up with lots of switch statements and a result that was nothing like I had in mind when I started writing it ! It registers state transition handlers to a certain extent, but there are too few handlers and lots of ``if I'm in this state'' code. -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 23:41:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.128.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC8014E3A for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:41:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22256; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:41:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00486; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:21:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910040621.HAA00486@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Wes Peters Cc: David Gilbert , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Julian Elischer Subject: Re: PPPoE offer. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:48:02 MDT." <37F2B342.39A37A04@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:21:12 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > David Gilbert wrote: > > > > I've got some real $$$ available to encourage someone to make PPPoE > > work efficiently enough on the FreeBSD platform to handle a > > substantial number of users. Is anyone interested? > > Brian? ;^) There may be something real in the pipeline now. Julian E (cc'd) reckons he can implement a netgraph node pretty quickly, and if I'm interpreting the way netgraph works correctly, I could implement a talk-to-netgraph ppp(8) device in a matter of minutes (``cp udp.[ch] netgraph.[ch]'', tweak netgraph_Create()). The use of netgraph removes the requirement for the bpf device which would be a little bit too hackish. It also provides the ability to implement a PPPoE server - something that eluded me in the bpf case. > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 3 23:59:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4969514DB0 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:59:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: from home.elischer.org (home.elischer.org [207.76.204.203]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA30482; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 23:58:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer X-Sender: julian@home.elischer.org To: Brian Somers Cc: Wes Peters , David Gilbert , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PPPoE offer. In-Reply-To: <199910040621.HAA00486@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Brian Somers wrote: > > David Gilbert wrote: > > > > > > I've got some real $$$ available to encourage someone to make PPPoE > > > work efficiently enough on the FreeBSD platform to handle a > > > substantial number of users. Is anyone interested? > > > > Brian? ;^) > > There may be something real in the pipeline now. Julian E (cc'd) > reckons he can implement a netgraph node pretty quickly, and if I'm > interpreting the way netgraph works correctly, I could implement a > talk-to-netgraph ppp(8) device in a matter of minutes (``cp udp.[ch] > netgraph.[ch]'', tweak netgraph_Create()). > > The use of netgraph removes the requirement for the bpf device which > would be a little bit too hackish. It also provides the ability to > implement a PPPoE server - something that eluded me in the bpf case. I'm working on it as we speak.. actually I'm reading through the several Linux implementations and looking at docs, (after a quick hackish prototype test). I just want to see how other people are aproaching the problem before I leap. One really interesting idea was a daemon that openned a pty (master) and supplied the other end to ppp. it then reads and writes using linux's raw sockets. (basically no mods to ppp, and worked with kernel ppp too) Another introduces a type AF_PPPOE, and alters kernel-ppp to specifically know about PPPoE, and connect to it. I'll be doing something different but I probably won't have it ready for a day or so. (still lotso stuff to read). Brian, for more on netgraph, in case you haven't seen them there are man pages available through ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/index.html and I THINK the latest mpd code has commented out netgraph interface code. if not, I'm sure Archie would send you the files. julian > > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > -- > Brian > > Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 0:11:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A9714C19 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 00:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@aracnet.com) Received: from aracnet.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10569; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 00:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910040707.AAA10569@guppy.pond.net> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 00:10:54 -0700 From: "D.M.P." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Somers Cc: Jaye Mathisen , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Speeding up time... References: <199910040625.HAA00521@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Somers wrote: > > > I would like to play around with some y2k testing. > > > > While setting dates and such works, I'd really like to > > be able to disable xntpd, and have time move faster. So > > I could set the date to 12/28/99 or somesuch, and > > have time run at 4:1 or 10:1, or something that lets > > me run through a few days of operation in a few hours... > > > > > > Is there an obviously trivial way to do this? > > I think you can get away with simply tweaking machdep.i8254_freq (if > you're using that counter that is). Couldn't he just have xntpd sync to y2k-test.timefreq.bldrdoc.gov, instead of modifying the software itself? Or is this not appropriate for the Y2k test in question? -- "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of the human mind." -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 0:53:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [156.153.255.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D496514E0D for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 00:53:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darrylo@sr.hp.com) Received: from postal.sr.hp.com (root@postal.sr.hp.com [15.4.46.173]) by palrel3.hp.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id AAA06431 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 00:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mina.sr.hp.com (root@mina.sr.hp.com [15.4.42.247]) by postal.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17190)/8.7.3 TIS 5.0) id AAA25471 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 00:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (darrylo@mina.sr.hp.com [15.4.42.247]) by mina.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.7.3 TIS 5.0) id AAA13118 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 00:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910040752.AAA13118@mina.sr.hp.com> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Reply-To: Darryl Okahata Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 00:52:36 -0700 From: Darryl Okahata Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > There is no sense in wasting the time of one informed developer to help > one uninformed developer; this is a bad tradeoff unless the uninformed > developer is showing signs of promise. The only way to assess this is > to look at the questions they ask and the context they're asking them > from. Nobody wants to answer one obvious question if there's any > chance at all that the questioner will latch onto them and demand > answers for dozens more - this isn't "helping someone", it's "doing > their work for free". [ Drifting away .... ] Yes, there are utterly clueless newbie hordes, many of whom should be ignored or maybe even shunned. Unfortunately, due to the nature of email/news, it's often difficult or impossible to distinguish clueless newbie peons from a novice uninitiated potential contributor. The problem with email/news is that postings are often short/terse, and the nature of email/news is such that one doesn't have access to unconcious communication cues such as voice tone or body language. Don't underestimate the importance of tone or body language. It's a very important part of person-to-person communication, and it's often difficult to properly communicate without it. In the case of someone we know, we use our knowledge about that person to put email/postings into perspective. However, in case of people we don't know, we only have only the (often terse) message by which to judge them. In the case of the FreeBSD groups, many postings appear to be judged "ignorable newbie crud"; while most of them are, some aren't, and it's just too easy to classify a perfectly honest question as "ignorable newbie crud" or "flamebait tinder". I'm saying all this because I've recently seen some disturbing trends in the various FreeBSD lists: [ Side note: I've been following various FreeBSD lists since June 1995, and so I'm not some idiot newcomer spewing at the mouth. ] 1. Instant escalation. Example: supplicant A asks question in FreeBSD group. Some FreeBSD contributor says, "RTFM", and does not give any useful information whatsoever like which "FM" or even a vague area. Supplicant A asks for more information, said FreeBSD contributor insults supplicant A for being clueless newbie crud and flamefest results. Lesson: if you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. Look at it this way: you won't have wasted your time, your blood pressure will be lower, and you won't look stupid for having stooped to insults, which also doesn't reflect well upon the FreeBSD contributors. Lesson 2: if you are going to answer a question, at least give some minimally-useful information. Don't say "RTFM" unless the FM in question is bloody obvious. Lesson 3: not everyone thinks like you do. In the FreeBSD- contributor's defense, I can see how the contributor could maybe have interpreted the question as coming from clueless newbie crud. However, it could easily be interpreted as an honest, intelligent question, also. Try not to make assumptions. Keep in mind that email/news lacks communication cues like voice tone and body language. 2. Whatever happened to "three strikes and you're out"? (This is a useful alternative to "instant escalation".) If you're going to answer a question, give the person the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they're "ignorable newbie crud", or maybe they're a novice uninitiated potential contributor. If you're going to answer a question, at least give them three chances to prove that they're ignorable newbie crud; please don't instantly escalate it. If you can't be bothered with this, then don't answer. 3. Short tempers and thin skins. Recently, it seems that the number of flamefests involving FreeBSD contributors have increased. Yes, clueless newbie crud exist. They seemingly appear to breed like maggots. They exist. Deal with it. Grow up. If you're tired and irritable -- take a break, or maybe a vacation. Have fun. Blow off steam. If you get insulted, at least try to act like a mature, rational human being. If you're still having problems, may I suggest that email filters like deliver(8) or procmail(8) might help? Please note that I'm not trying to point fingers or anything. What has happened, has happened. Nothing's going to change that, and pointing fingers is counterproductive. Personally, I don't care who's at fault, but I do care about possibly driving away novice uninitiated potential contributors. Several months back, I attended a conference at which a Major Linux Personage gave a speech to Linux users and *potential* Linux users (I won't say who gave the speech, aside that it wasn't Linus). One of the things mentioned about how Linux was better than FreeBSD, was, um, the "development process" (and my words are much more charitable than his). Looking at the current flamefests, and thinking about what was said by the Major Linux Personage, I'd have to say that there's a lot of ugly truth there -- and I do really wish he was wrong. -- Darryl Okahata darrylo@sr.hp.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Hewlett-Packard, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 2:25:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from titan.lndn.tensor.pgs.com (titan.lndn.tensor.pgs.com [157.147.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53777151B4 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 02:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shocking@dhcp160-32.lndn.tensor.pgs.com) Received: from dhcp160-32.lndn.tensor.pgs.com (dhcp160-32 [157.147.160.32]) by titan.lndn.tensor.pgs.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA21085; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:25:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from dhcp160-32.lndn.tensor.pgs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp160-32.lndn.tensor.pgs.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05633; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:25:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199910040925.KAA05633@dhcp160-32.lndn.tensor.pgs.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 To: hackers@freebsd.org, asmodai@wxs.nl, nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 03 Oct 1999 14:29:50 PDT." Reply-To: shocking@prth.pgs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:25:54 +0100 From: Stephen Hocking Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would like to point out that they use the SDL library for many of their products. We have this in our ports section, but it does have a bug in that we get a threads crash when doing sound & video simultaneously. The aliens demo displays this fault rather well. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't, there's something timing related. I suspect something needs to be protected by a mutex somewhere. Stephen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 3:16:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C141914DAD for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.72]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB1602; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:16:41 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA64533; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:16:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:16:36 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Darryl Okahata Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Message-ID: <19991004121636.L63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199910040752.AAA13118@mina.sr.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910040752.AAA13118@mina.sr.hp.com> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ snip good advice ] Now this is very good advice. I am certainly going to keep Darryl's comments somewhere for easy reference in order to make sure I at least never forget where I came from and how to treat others. I think everybody should heed this advice. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Fame is the perfume of heroic deeds. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 3:19:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA20E14EE3 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:19:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.72]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA19FB; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:19:43 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA64560; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:18:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:18:55 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: shocking@prth.pgs.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase Message-ID: <19991004121855.M63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199910040925.KAA05633@dhcp160-32.lndn.tensor.pgs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910040925.KAA05633@dhcp160-32.lndn.tensor.pgs.com> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991004 11:42], Stephen Hocking (shocking@london.pgs.com) wrote: >I would like to point out that they use the SDL library for many of their >products. We have this in our ports section, but it does have a bug in that we >get a threads crash when doing sound & video simultaneously. The aliens demo >displays this fault rather well. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't, >there's something timing related. I suspect something needs to be protected by >a mutex somewhere. Do you mean pthreads? If so, we still do not have a pthread_cancel in our libc_r which could greatly make things harder to implement. I think OpenBSD has one and we might do well to look at that one. Now if we mean another threads implementation alltogether, than you can just ignore the above =) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Fame is the perfume of heroic deeds. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 3:22:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3F414ED7 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: from home.elischer.org (home.elischer.org [207.76.204.203]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA33568; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:22:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer X-Sender: julian@home.elischer.org To: "Eugene M. Kim" Cc: Brian Somers , Wes Peters , David Gilbert , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PPPoE offer. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Eugene M. Kim wrote: > I personally used this approach for some kernel PPP over TCP tunnels, > and strongly recommend it because now there are many protocols that make > use of PPP (PPTP, PPPoE, PPP over TCP to name a few). If we modified > the kernel PPP to create a new protocol family, we basically would have > to do the same kind of `porting' every time a new protocol (based on > PPP) comes out. Look at the netgraph stuff at ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/index.html for how we handle this situation at whistle. julian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 3:28:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A843714ED7; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA21678; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:27:43 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Leif Neland Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fetch/wget/ftp: How to do a recursive ftp-get? Message-ID: <19991004032743.A21598@relay.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19991003074934.C47240@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RC Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > But which tool can do a command-line, recursive ftp-get? NcFTP versions 2 & 3 can. There are also purely command-line versions, called ncftpget & ncftpput in the `ncftp3' port. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 3:44:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6B714C17 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA21753; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:44:31 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Wayne Cuddy Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Message-ID: <19991004034431.B21598@relay.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <199910040108.SAA08607@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RC Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Let me give you some advice on FreeBSD list etiquette. You quoted *_114_* lines just to add FIVE?? Are you so busy you can't figure out how to delete lines in your editor? It is replies like this that have run many of the knowledgeable people from this list. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 3:46:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nets5.rz.rwth-aachen.de (nets5.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347F514C17 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:46:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by nets5.rz.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1/7) with ESMTP id MAA18624 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:46:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.30.2]) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1/3) with ESMTP id MAA16982 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:46:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.2/8.6.9) id MAA58962 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:46:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:46:07 +0200 (CEST) From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199910041046.MAA58962@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: qcam/cqcam driver Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just a question: has the Quickcam and ColorQuickcam (if there was any) been removed from the kernel? And, if yes, for what reason? -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 3:55:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E76114EAB for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 03:55:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id GAA14658; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 06:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 06:54:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen Message-Id: <199910041054.GAA14658@pcnet1.pcnet.com> To: asmodai@wxs.nl, shocking@prth.pgs.com Subject: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Do you mean pthreads? > > If so, we still do not have a pthread_cancel in our libc_r which could > greatly make things harder to implement. I think OpenBSD has one and we > might do well to look at that one. We could implement pthread_cancel rather easily (I have some crufty patches lying around somewhere to do it), but it wouldn't be nearly POSIX compliant. Some non-cancellable routines would be cancellable, and vice-versa I think too. We need to take a different approach to our threads library in the form of scheduler activations. I _can_ hack in the pthread_cancel routines into our current libc_r, but I'd much rather spend my time looking into scheduler activations which will better solve the problem. Dan Eischen eischen@vigrid.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 4:12:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from laurasia.com.au (lauras.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.93.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C354F14D2B for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 04:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@laurasia.com.au) Received: (from mike@localhost) by laurasia.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA63509; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:12:04 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from mike) From: Michael Kennett Message-Id: <199910041112.TAA63509@laurasia.com.au> Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) In-Reply-To: <19991004121636.L63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai at "Oct 4, 1999 12:16:36 pm" To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:12:04 +0800 (WST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On a slight tangent, I've just gone back and reread Greg Lehey's 'How to get best results from FreeBSD-questions'. It's a great document, covering a lot of the etiquette for the freebsd-questions mailing list. It can be found at: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html However, the document doesn't really cover how 'newbies' (I hate that term :-) can find information for themselves. There is a huge amount of information on the internet -- too much, really -- and having a list of selected references could help people help themselves. This 'how-to-help-yourself' document wouldn't have to be long. But it could contain references to the FreeBSD handbook, the FAQ, and other stuff that people put together (eg. Gregs pages on vinum, Brian Somers pages on ppp, + many others), in addition to some general internet resources (eg. www.faqs.org), and general unix introductions. Ideally, this 'meta-FAQ' would only be a few pages in length. It's role would be as a quick signpost to material that people have found useful before. I just did a quick check on www.faqs.org, and there were *no* faqs posted for FreeBSD on that site (at least that I could find). I think it would certainly be worthwhile to have a FAQ listed on that site. I'd appreciate feedback on this. I'm willing to collate material and host such a FAQ (with the advance warning that I have *lousy* HTML skills:-). Please suggest any information or worthy sites that you think of. Looking forward to your comments, Mike 'forever-a-newbie-willing-to-learn' Kennett (mike@laurasia.com.au) Jeroen wrote: > [ snip good advice ] > > Now this is very good advice. > > I am certainly going to keep Darryl's comments somewhere for easy > reference in order to make sure I at least never forget where I came > from and how to treat others. > > I think everybody should heed this advice. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 4:47: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8684F14D46 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 04:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.72]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA4BFB; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:47:00 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA64871; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:47:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:47:23 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Michael Kennett Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Message-ID: <19991004134723.Q63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19991004121636.L63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <199910041112.TAA63509@laurasia.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910041112.TAA63509@laurasia.com.au> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991004 13:42], Michael Kennett (mike@laurasia.com.au) wrote: >This 'how-to-help-yourself' document wouldn't have to be long. But it >could contain references to the FreeBSD handbook, the FAQ, and other >stuff that people put together (eg. Gregs pages on vinum, Brian Somers >pages on ppp, + many others), in addition to some general internet >resources (eg. www.faqs.org), and general unix introductions. >Ideally, this 'meta-FAQ' would only be a few pages in length. It's role >would be as a quick signpost to material that people have found useful >before. Allow me to cast the first stone then. I am already going to do this kind of stuff for the Dutch (Free)BSD User Group, so I imagine I could as well start work on this one as well. I even have a list of interesting FAQs on my homepage which I really need to expand. Joy! More work ;) Feel free to e-mail me interesting topics/faqs/information which is deemed hackers/new-hackers worthy. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best The descent to hell is easy. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 4:55:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from laurasia.com.au (lauras.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.93.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1975214D46 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 04:55:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@laurasia.com.au) Received: (from mike@localhost) by laurasia.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA63718; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:55:26 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from mike) From: Michael Kennett Message-Id: <199910041155.TAA63718@laurasia.com.au> Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) In-Reply-To: <19991004134723.Q63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai at "Oct 4, 1999 01:47:23 pm" To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:55:26 +0800 (WST) Cc: mike@laurasia.com.au (Michael Kennett), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Jeoren, > I am already going to do this kind of stuff for the Dutch (Free)BSD User > Group, so I imagine I could as well start work on this one as well. > > I even have a list of interesting FAQs on my homepage which I really > need to expand. > > Joy! More work ;) > > Feel free to e-mail me interesting topics/faqs/information which is > deemed hackers/new-hackers worthy. I certainly will. But, please, don't think you're alone on this project. Next weekend I'll try to knock something up. I'll send it along to you when I'm done. Best Wishes, Mike Kennett (mike@laurasia.com.au) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 5: 8:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD6814D3E for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 05:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.72]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA319F; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:08:19 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA64941; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:08:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:08:31 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Michael Kennett Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Message-ID: <19991004140831.R63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19991004134723.Q63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <199910041155.TAA63718@laurasia.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910041155.TAA63718@laurasia.com.au> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [This is only informative for others willing to participate, after this it should probably no longer hit -hackers since it's getting off topic] On [19991004 14:02], Michael Kennett (mike@laurasia.com.au) wrote: >Hi Jeoren, Almost ;) s/eor/ero >> I am already going to do this kind of stuff for the Dutch (Free)BSD User >> Group, so I imagine I could as well start work on this one as well. >> >> I even have a list of interesting FAQs on my homepage which I really >> need to expand. >> >> Feel free to e-mail me interesting topics/faqs/information which is >> deemed hackers/new-hackers worthy. > >I certainly will. But, please, don't think you're alone on this project. >Next weekend I'll try to knock something up. I'll send it along to you >when I'm done. OK Cool. If you look at http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai/bsd.html and http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai/programlinks.html you know what you don't have to send since I already have it ;) I will cast it into a DocBook form and will generate the HTML from there. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Might makes right. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 5:19: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from trooper.velocet.net (trooper.velocet.net [216.126.82.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C5EA14DA4 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 05:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dgilbert@trooper.velocet.net) Received: (from dgilbert@localhost) by trooper.velocet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA68343; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:18:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dgilbert) From: David Gilbert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14328.39710.398385.552396@trooper.velocet.net> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:18:38 -0400 (EDT) To: Julian Elischer Cc: Brian Somers , Wes Peters , David Gilbert , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PPPoE offer. In-Reply-To: References: <199910040621.HAA00486@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [on PPPoE] Well... a few toronto people and I got together (I'm trying to find email addresses) to discuss the problem. One particular thought that we had was that it would be cool if a single ppp process could handle a large number of connections. We also discussed the fact that you may very well want some low-level routing of the PPPoE packets. The cost model with our telco (at least) is that each ethernet connection costs $1500/mo. So... we need to be able to run somewhere around 5K to 10K connections (users) down each pipe. This means that a box on the front end to "route" the packets to multiple boxes is an asset. Dave. -- ============================================================================ |David Gilbert, Velocet Communications. | Two things can only be | |Mail: dgilbert@velocet.net | equal if and only if they | |http://www.velocet.net/~dgilbert | are precisely opposite. | =========================================================GLO================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 6:25:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gymmt.sk (gw.gymmt.sk [195.168.78.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0199D14C37 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 06:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@gymmt.sk) Received: (from peter@localhost) by gymmt.sk (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA13735 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:25:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from peter) From: Peter Ciger Message-Id: <199910041325.PAA13735@gymmt.sk> Subject: To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:25:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe freebsd-hackers peter@gymmt.sk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 7:12:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A517E14CE8 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 07:12:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.47]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAH6D4E; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:12:13 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA65465; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:06:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:06:42 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Daniel Eischen Cc: shocking@prth.pgs.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: On pthreads [Was: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase] Message-ID: <19991004160641.H63946@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910041054.GAA14658@pcnet1.pcnet.com> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991004 13:04], Daniel Eischen (eischen@vigrid.com) wrote: >> Do you mean pthreads? >> >> If so, we still do not have a pthread_cancel in our libc_r which could >> greatly make things harder to implement. I think OpenBSD has one and we >> might do well to look at that one. > >We could implement pthread_cancel rather easily (I have some crufty >patches lying around somewhere to do it), but it wouldn't be nearly >POSIX compliant. Some non-cancellable routines would be cancellable, >and vice-versa I think too. We need to make a start somewhere, since no pthread_cancel makes us even less compliant =P >We need to take a different approach to our threads library in the >form of scheduler activations. I _can_ hack in the pthread_cancel >routines into our current libc_r, but I'd much rather spend my >time looking into scheduler activations which will better solve >the problem. I neither have the docs, experience nor time to be of any help save that I can try patches/compilations for you. I found these people in reference to libc_r whom could prove helpful or insightful for your endeavours: John Birrell Peter Dufault Good luck. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 8: 0:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B071551D for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id KAA17005; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:59:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen Message-Id: <199910041459.KAA17005@pcnet1.pcnet.com> To: asmodai@wxs.nl, eischen@vigrid.com Subject: Re: On pthreads [Was: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase] Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu, shocking@prth.pgs.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >We could implement pthread_cancel rather easily (I have some crufty > >patches lying around somewhere to do it), but it wouldn't be nearly > >POSIX compliant. Some non-cancellable routines would be cancellable, > >and vice-versa I think too. > > We need to make a start somewhere, since no pthread_cancel makes us even > less compliant =P I know. I brought this up with John Birrell and it was thought my time would be better spent working on user over kernel thread implementations. If there are ports/applications that really could use a non-POSIX compliant pthread_cancel support, then I can implement it. I just don't want to open a can of worms when it gets added and doesn't work as POSIX specifies it should. > I neither have the docs, experience nor time to be of any help save that > I can try patches/compilations for you. > > I found these people in reference to libc_r whom could prove helpful or > insightful for your endeavours: > > John Birrell > Peter Dufault All my changes get reviewed and approved by JB (the MAINTAINER) :-) Dan Eischen eischen@vigrid.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 8: 2: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0736E15688 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:01:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cmascott@world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com (root@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24735 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cmascott@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA16073 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:59:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Carl Mascott Message-Id: <199910041459.KAA16073@world.std.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FBSD 3.3-R can't detect disk on Promise Ultra33 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ I sent this to freebsd-questions but got no response. I'm pretty sure this is a bug (wdc1 OK, wdc0 can't detect disk). ] DEC Celebris 590 (P90) 2 IDE on motherboard (CMD 640B), disabled Promise Ultra33 PCI IDE bus master WD AC24300 on Promise IDE #1 (won't work on motherboard IDE) Toshiba CD-ROM on Promise IDE #2 FreeBSD 3.3 kernel & mfsroot floppies The hardware is all OK: I have NT 4.0 running on this config. Enter CLI kernel config and config both wdc0 and wdc1 as follows: port 0 irq -1 flags 0xa0ffa0ff (have also tried 0xb0ffb0ff) Hardware probe detects both CMD 640B (wdc0) and Promise Ultra33 (ide_pci0). PCI attach says "ide_pci0: adding drives to controller 0: 0 1 2 3". Then: wdc0 not found at 0xfc48 wdc1 found at 0xfc50-0xfc57 (Further messages correctly identify the Toshiba CD-ROM.) As far as I know, these are the correct ports for the Promise (wdc1 is certainly correct because the CD-ROM is found there). FWIW, the BIOS on my motherboard can't detect the WD AC24300 when it's on motherboard IDE #1, although CMD's DOS diagnostic "checkide.exe" can. The motherboard BIOS has a 4096 cylinder (2.1 GB) limit and it's a 4.3 GB drive. Is this a bug in FreeBSD's IDE support? Please e-mail me directly. Thanks! -- Carl Mascott cmascott@world.std.com uunet!world!cmascott To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 9:28:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B7015230 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:28:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02039; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:27:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Christoph Kukulies Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qcam/cqcam driver In-Reply-To: <199910041046.MAA58962@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > Just a question: has the Quickcam and ColorQuickcam (if there was any) > been removed from the kernel? And, if yes, for what reason? The qcam driver disappeared from the kernel years ago since it easily caused kernel panics and wasn't maintained. I was a victim of said panics. It wasn't very nice. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 9:28:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE19154AA for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p11-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.140]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id BAA21706; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:28:20 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37F8D543.97042700@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 01:26:43 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christoph Kukulies Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qcam/cqcam driver References: <199910041046.MAA58962@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > Just a question: has the Quickcam and ColorQuickcam (if there was any) > been removed from the kernel? And, if yes, for what reason? Well, people tried to once. I do not recall what happened in the end. The reason was that the driver did not support the newest devices, and there was a port which worked just fine. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Rule 69: Do unto other's code as you'd have it done unto yours To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 9:37:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAE6154A0 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.1a/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA06269; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:35:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:35:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Christoph Kukulies , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qcam/cqcam driver In-Reply-To: <37F8D543.97042700@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > Just a question: has the Quickcam and ColorQuickcam (if there was any) > > been removed from the kernel? And, if yes, for what reason? > > Well, people tried to once. I do not recall what happened in the > end. The reason was that the driver did not support the newest > devices, and there was a port which worked just fine. qcread ( http://www.fhttpd.org/pub/qcread/README.html ) works in userspace. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 11:24:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B357D15184 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p11-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.140]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id DAA04837; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 03:24:13 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37F8E96C.CDC2F36@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 02:52:44 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wayne@crb-web.com Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I really, really need not get into this, but I just can't help myself... sigh... Wayne Cuddy wrote: > > > Are you willing to accept that you may have been judged "not worth the > > effort" on the content of your questions, or are we going to have > > another flamewar about whether we should be opening a developers' > > kindergarten? > Oh. Ok if this is case where are the guidelines as to what is "worth the > effort?" This determination is obviously relative. This is a volunteer project. Nobody is forced to do anything. There is no guideline on what kind of questions people should answer or not. It's very simple: if I (emphasis on "I") think answering your message is worth the time in which I could read ten, twenty other messages, I'll do so. The same applies to each other person on the list, developer or not. There are things one can do to improve their chances of seeing the message answered. For example: * Make the messages easy to read. Wrapped lines, no html, clear quoting, adequate use of spacing. * Provide as much information as possible. The less information on a message, the more likely the message comes from someone "clueless", with whom any conversation is likely to be very frustrating. * Show that you did your homework. Describe how you researched the subject, what answers you came from, what happened when you tried each of them, what alternatives are you considering, how do you figure their pro and cons, etc. * Be polite. In my experience, there is absolutely nothing more likely to induce answers than a polite message, no matter it's contents. > You are right I jumped to learning about FreeBSD kernel development, which I > don't get paid for in any way, so that I could have someone else do it... > Try to be a little reasonable here, I would not be here if I did not want to > learn. Which means doing my own work. Example of people wanting someone else to do their homework: "I noticed FreeBSD's malloc() does not return an error when it allocates more memory than available. Can't you do [options]?" This is a recurring thread, you can look up on the archives to read how it goes. Basically, the person doesn't like the present behavior, and would like to have an alternative (or have it changed completely). ALSO, they would like others to _explain_ to them how to go about making such change. Sure, they probably think it isn't all that hard, which only goes to show they didn't do any research at all. For example, the notorious SIGDANGER signal, one of the alternatives to the "problem" above, required that we supported more than 32 signals. Sounds easy, right? Well, someone just spent FIVE WEEKS just adding support for more than 32 signals. The fact is that many people come here before reading a single man page, reading a single source file. That, on -hackers, is wanting others to do their homework. > I would be hard pressed to read the list for a day and not find a demeaning or > wasteful comment from some of the developers on this list. So apparently some > people do have time negative responses. Some months ago FreeBSD had more than 150 committers. I don't know how many there are right now. -hackers, -current, -questions are all very busy lists, and these people happen to also *code* in their free time. If we did not have occasional comments like that given the number of people, the number of e-mails and the fact that at the very least some of them are bound to be going through some stress in their lives, I'd feel like i entered the Twilight Zone. > Does a helpful response, even a "stupid" one take that much time? I did > realize how busy you were. Sure it does. In the minutes I have been answering this mail, I could have finished reading all my e-mail and gone sleep. > This is absolutely correct and in many cases the most inefficient way to go. > It is certainly helpful to answer a question that is on the tip of one's > tongue rather than wading through lines of code especially if it is holding > up the work of others. However you are correct definitive answers are in the > code... all 1 million+ lines.. It comes down to this: if you are ever going to write code, you'll have to read it first. If you don't read it now, while searching for the easy answers, when are you going to start? When all your questions are so complex you'll need to master hundreds of lines of code before finding the answer? Reading the code might be inefficient, but it is YOUR time you are spending, not mine. That kind of consideration is highly valued. And cut that one million lines bullshit. You don't need to read one million lines even if you wanted to rewrite the whole virtual memory system. And most surely "easy" answers won't take more than a few dozen lines of code to figure out, at most. If it takes more, then they are not easy. But if you haven't *TRIED* to find the answer, how do you know if they are easy or not? Nobody reads this list because they are paid to. People read this list and answer the questions in it because they *WANT*. And nobody is going to spend time holding the hand of someone who does not spend HIS time trying to find the answer in first place. If you ask me where in the source code a certain function is defined, I'll delete the message as soon as I lay my eyes upon it. If you ask me *how* do you find out where in the source code is that function, your message will probably generate a long thread of answers. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Rule 69: Do unto other's code as you'd have it done unto yours To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 13:46: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A361528C; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-108.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.108] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA15338; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:45:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37F911D6.6CA5BCA4@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 15:45:10 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leif Neland Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fetch/wget/ftp: How to do a recursive ftp-get? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Why is this cross-posted? Leif Neland wrote: > > But which tool can do a command-line, recursive ftp-get? wget can't, > because it does not create subdirs below the one specified, i.e. if I do > a wget -r ftp://webmaster:password@webserver.my.dom/htdocs/tree, it will > create the dir webserver.my.dom/htdocs/tree, but not any subdomains to > that. > > Leif wget -r -m --follow-ftp -T timeout_seconds -c "URL_HERE" I know as I do. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 14:20:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A7515563 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:20:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29121; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:19:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Christoph Kukulies Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qcam/cqcam driver References: <199910041046.MAA58962@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Oct 1999 23:19:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies's message of "Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:46:07 +0200 (CEST)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Christoph Kukulies writes: > Just a question: has the Quickcam and ColorQuickcam (if there was any) > been removed from the kernel? And, if yes, for what reason? Yeah, they were nuked ages ago. OTOH, I always wanted one of those babies, and ISTR that Connectix has a free developer program where you can sign up to get tech specs and stuff. If somebody donates the eq I might hack up a KLD module :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 14:49:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA8715571 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:49:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (ind.alcatel.com 2.3 [OUT])) id OAA22745; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA00295; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:49:38 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA08837; Mon, 4 Oct 99 14:49:25 PDT Message-Id: <37F920EF.79B9EFE2@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 15:49:35 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: wayne@crb-web.com Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wayne Cuddy and Mike Smith crossed swords thusly: Wayne: > Mike: > > Wayne: > > > Mike: > > > > So, regardless of whether you've asked a question or not, you need to > > > > understand that the onus rests solely on yourself to pursue the answer. > > > > They're all there in the code, where everyone else that you're asking > > > > has already found them. > > > > > > This is absolutely correct and in many cases the most inefficient way to go. > > > > Crap. It's the most _efficient_ way in terms of return on effort > > invested. Wayne, you seem to be forgetting that you're working with volunteers. It may very well be that there are 6 or 7 people out there who know the answer to your question right off the top of their heads, can point you to the exact line of code in question, and describe how to do what you want. If they're too busy with their days jobs, families, other FreeBSD work, or just lying on their backs counting stars, it is still not your place to DEMAND answers from them. You can ask politely, or you can just go away. If you don't get an answer, it might be because everyone was busy, nobody is really familiar with that part of the code, or because nobody is interested in helping at this time. The efficieny doesn't matter, you are ASKING A FAVOR. Phrase your questions appropriately. Do you approach doctor when sick and demand that he make you better NOW or you're going to tell the entire world what a moron he is? I certainly don't. > > What irritates me the most is that you and others in your position > > won't accept the fact that things are complicated. Oh no, it has to be > > these evil nasty people that don't want you to learn. Yeah. That's it. > > You sure know a lot about me! Are you making these assumptions about > me and "others like me" based on what I am posting now or previous postings? > I am really sorry you are irritated. And you think you are 100% unique. Oddly enough, so did each and every one of your hundreds of predecessors. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 15:52:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A1B14DB2 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28027; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:52:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:52:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Wes Peters Cc: wayne@crb-web.com, FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) In-Reply-To: <37F920EF.79B9EFE2@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > This is absolutely correct and in many cases the most inefficient way to go. > > > > > > Crap. It's the most _efficient_ way in terms of return on effort > > > invested. > > Wayne, you seem to be forgetting that you're working with volunteers. Come on, you guys, you're both right. Sometimes, the guy with the info is too busy to help. Sometimes, the guy doing the asking wants everyone else to do his work for him. The real rule is, don't reply if you don't have something constructive to say, and be polite, even if it seems the guy you're answering has a few loose bolts. Outside of that, we are all on our own, and you can't enforce stuff on a volunteer organization. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C programming, Electronics, 213 Lakeside Dr. Apt. T-1 | communications, and signal processing. Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD-current(i386) and (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD-current(Alpha) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 16:10:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n66.san.rr.com (dt011n66.san.rr.com [204.210.13.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A314315145 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt011n66.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA36794 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt011n66.san.rr.com To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: zalloci/pv_entry problem (Was: Weird sockname errors with -current and apache) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Including the whole history here since I haven't received a response on this yet.] Well I FINALLY got one of my crashing CGI machines to drop into the debugger, and the results were interesting. I'm not a DDB expert, but I tried to get some relevant info. I think the following is the most interesting: db> trace zalloci(c02698c0,deb59e58,c01f24c3,dd196964,8752000) at zalloci+0x33 get_pv_entry(dd196964,8752000,ffc21d48,0,deb59e90) at get_pv_entry+0x4a pmap_insert_entry(dd196964,8752000,c08952d0,77cb000) at pmap_insert_entry+0x1f pmap_copy(dd196964,de0ec264,80c6000,1d7e000,80c6000) at pmap_copy+0x1a0 vm_map_copy_entry(de0ec200,dd196900,dd31aac8,de780208) at vm_map_copy_entry+0xdf vmspace_fork(de0ec200,dd191840,dd191840,bfbfddbc,deb59f30) at vmspace_fork+0x1d3 vm_fork(de09f080,dd191840,14) at vm_fork+0x2f fork1(de09f080,14,deb59f48,de09f080,9) at fork1+0x621 fork(de09f080,deb59f80,805b36c,30,bfbfddbc) at fork+0x16 syscall(bfbf002f,bfbf002f,bfbf002f,bfbfddbc,30) at syscall+0x19e Xint0x80_syscall() at Xint0x80_syscall+0x31 The full output of what I got is available at http://doug.simplenet.com/DDB1.txt. We'd had some problems with the servers crashing due to an inadequate number of pv_entry's (due to the huge size of our httpd's), so I increased options PMAP_SHPGPERPROC to 800, which solved the crashing problem. However it seems(?) that this high setting is tickling something that it ought not to. The changes in the VM system between 8/28 and 9/22 seem to be exacerbating the problem, since the servers are much more stable now with the older code in spite of this one crash. If anyone has suggestions for better DDB commands to use for next time, and/or any other suggestions on fixing the problem I'm open to them. I am currently working on taking advantage of apache 1.3.9's new vhost settings for httpd.conf so that we can reduce the size of our conf files (and thus the httpd's), but meanwhile it looks like our unusual settings have uncovered a problem worth fixing. Thanks, Doug -- "Stop it, I'm gettin' misty." - Mel Gibson as Porter, "Payback" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:06:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Weird sockname errors with -current and apache No response on -current and I have an update. After moving to -current source via cvs -D (1999//D99.08.28.21.00.00) the servers are infinitely more stable, running continuously for three days, and showing no signs of dying. I get sockname errors once in a great while, and only one at a time. I get the VM error mentioned below once in a great while, but I'm fairly certain I've tracked that down to a problem with the miva processing engine binary itself. I haven't had any of the errant apache children not dying errors, and only one of the calcru errors. I have come up with a theory on this and I'd appreciate if someone could comment on it. We get pre-compiled binaries from the Miva Corp. people that I'm 99.99% sure are built on a 2.2.x or 3.x machine (waiting on confirmation now). So what I'm thinking (based mostly on the sockname error) is that there is a sort of "library creep" happening where small incompatibilities between the version of the library that the binary is expecting and the version it's finding are just a bit out of synch. I am wondering if adding the appropriate compat libraries to these systems would help, and if so how would I specify that this specific binary use those libraries as opposed to the ones in /usr/lib? Any insights on this would be greatly appreciated. Here are some details on the binaries, let know if anything else is needed. Thanks, Doug ldd miva miva: libcrypt.so.2 => /usr/lib/libcrypt.so.2 (0x280d3000) libc.so.3 => /usr/lib/libc.so.3 (0x280e9000) libm.so.2 => /usr/lib/libm.so.2 (0x2816c000) file miva miva: setuid sticky ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, stripped -- "Stop it, I'm gettin' misty." - Mel Gibson as Porter, "Payback" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:28:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Weird sockname errors with -current and apache Greetings, I'm using -current on some web server/CGI processing machines. Yes I know all about using -current on production stuff, but we need the NFS, et al fixes due to the heavy NFS client activity on these systems, and I'm willing to take the good with the bad. I cvsup'ed and built world and kernel on or about 8/26 and these boxes ran fine for about 26 days. On 9/22 (Wednesday) I cvsup'ed and built world and kernel on one machine in order to take advantage of Matt's latest round of NFS, etc. fixes. That box ran well for two days so I updated the rest of them on Friday (9/24) and took off for a happy weekend. Well, you know what happened, one box locked up on saturday, I came in and rebooted it, then the other 4 boxes locked up on sunday. *sigh* The really annoying thing here is that there isn't ONE clear problem that I can point to. Also, when the boxes die they wedge solid. No console, serial or otherwise, and no DDB so I can't find out exactly what they are doing when they die. I have the DDB_UNATTENDED option in the kernel because I have the boxes set up to recover themselves on boot and go back into service (previous to the 26 day uptime panics were common). I'm starting to think I should disable that, however as far as I can see they aren't panic'ing, they are just freezing up; although they are ping'able. We started out this project with Apache 1.3.6, and on Sept. 7 we moved to 1.3.9. These are dual PIII 500 machines with a half gig of ram each. The other annoying thing is that while I was checking the kernel, etc. logs for signs of problems, it hadn't occured to me to check the apache error log. Once I did I noticed that at least some of the symptoms I'm seeing go back as far as I have logs, even before the blessed 26 day uptime period. Here is what I've seen. The first errror I can find in any of the logs I have that seems related to the problem is this from apache's error log: [Fri Aug 20 10:59:34 1999] [error] (22)Invalid argument: getsockname consequently I've noticed that we get this error a LOT, usually coinciding with a period of time where the machine is wedged, after which it sometimes comes back, and sometimes doesn't (i.e., it stays wedged). When this happens it usually repeats about 15-20 times, followed by: Virtual memory exceeded in `new' then a NULL character (^@) in the apache log. Those errors are usually accompanied by a slew of "Premature end of script headers" messages, apparently related to CGI process that these web servers run dying off before it finishes writing out its data. We also have a slew of these errors in the apache logs at various times (doesn't *seem* to be a correlation with the others, but I'm not sure) that look like: [Mon Sep 13 12:51:03 1999] [warn] child process 82600 still did not exit, sending a SIGTERM [Mon Sep 13 12:51:03 1999] [warn] child process 83437 still did not exit, sending a SIGTERM [Mon Sep 13 12:51:03 1999] [warn] child process 84136 still did not exit, sending a SIGTERM [Mon Sep 13 12:51:03 1999] [warn] child process 83698 still did not exit, sending a SIGTERM [Mon Sep 13 12:51:03 1999] [warn] child process 83703 still did not exit, sending a SIGTERM Sometimes these happen at the same time, sometimes they don't. When this one happens we get about 40 of them in a row. In the system logs the only unusual thing I've seen (and I enable a LOT of logging) are these messages, which started over this past weekend. /kernel: calcru: negative time of 4347162 usec for pid 6806 (httpd) Once again, when these come they come in bunches, sometimes with a positive time value like this one, sometimes with a negative one. I'm used to seeing calcru messages related to the kernel misjudging the speed of the processor, but the recently added code that tells you the speed on SMP systems says that I have CPU: Pentium III (498.75-MHz 686-class CPU), which looks right to me. Now, as if the above were not annoying enough, all of these problems could very well be related to the third party CGI processing engine (a program called Miva) which we have tracked down some bugs in before. Of course the machines freezing up is my main concern at this point, but the errors themselves could be coming from miva. Any suggestions on how to debug this problem further would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to start up some boxes today that don't have the DDB_UNATTENDED option enabled to see if they will in fact panic and drop to the debugger. Beyond that, I'm at a bit of a loss here. TIA, Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 16:53: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lor.watermarkgroup.com (lor.watermarkgroup.com [207.202.73.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAC215161 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luoqi@watermarkgroup.com) Received: (from luoqi@localhost) by lor.watermarkgroup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09480; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:52:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from luoqi) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:52:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Luoqi Chen Message-Id: <199910042352.TAA09480@lor.watermarkgroup.com> To: Doug@gorean.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: zalloci/pv_entry problem (Was: Weird sockname errors with -current and apache) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well I FINALLY got one of my crashing CGI machines to drop into > the debugger, and the results were interesting. I'm not a DDB expert, but > I tried to get some relevant info. I think the following is the most > interesting: > > db> trace > zalloci(c02698c0,deb59e58,c01f24c3,dd196964,8752000) at zalloci+0x33 > get_pv_entry(dd196964,8752000,ffc21d48,0,deb59e90) at get_pv_entry+0x4a > pmap_insert_entry(dd196964,8752000,c08952d0,77cb000) at > pmap_insert_entry+0x1f > pmap_copy(dd196964,de0ec264,80c6000,1d7e000,80c6000) at pmap_copy+0x1a0 > vm_map_copy_entry(de0ec200,dd196900,dd31aac8,de780208) at > vm_map_copy_entry+0xdf > vmspace_fork(de0ec200,dd191840,dd191840,bfbfddbc,deb59f30) at > vmspace_fork+0x1d3 > vm_fork(de09f080,dd191840,14) at vm_fork+0x2f > fork1(de09f080,14,deb59f48,de09f080,9) at fork1+0x621 > fork(de09f080,deb59f80,805b36c,30,bfbfddbc) at fork+0x16 > syscall(bfbf002f,bfbf002f,bfbf002f,bfbfddbc,30) at syscall+0x19e > Xint0x80_syscall() at Xint0x80_syscall+0x31 > > The full output of what I got is available at > http://doug.simplenet.com/DDB1.txt. > If you have a crash dump, could you look at the 4 longwords starting at address 0xc02698c0? It seemed to be an accouting problem. Do you by any chance use any kld module? zalloc() calls from within a module do not lock the vm_zone data structure, which is fine for UP but dangerous for SMP. -lq To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 17:16:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from atlrel1.hp.com (atlrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7910714CDF for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darrylo@sr.hp.com) Received: from postal.sr.hp.com (root@postal.sr.hp.com [15.4.46.173]) by atlrel1.hp.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id UAA08614; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mina.sr.hp.com (root@mina.sr.hp.com [15.4.42.247]) by postal.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17190)/8.7.3 TIS 5.0) id RAA00322; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (darrylo@mina.sr.hp.com [15.4.42.247]) by mina.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.7.3 TIS 5.0) id RAA29289; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910050015.RAA29289@mina.sr.hp.com> To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Reply-To: Darryl Okahata In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Oct 1999 02:52:44 +0900." Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 17:15:48 -0700 From: Darryl Okahata Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > It's very simple: if I (emphasis on "I") think answering your > message is worth the time in which I could read ten, twenty other > messages, I'll do so. The same applies to each other person on the > list, developer or not. Very true. > There are things one can do to improve their chances of seeing the > message answered. For example: ... excellent advice, which everyone should follow. ... however, how the H*LL are the clueless newbie hordes supposed to know or learn this? As much as we'd like them to be, they're not exactly born with this knowledge, and I somehow doubt there's an "XXX for Dummies" book that covers this. In many respects, venturing into a newgroup or mailing list is much like visiting a foreign country, where the customs and social mores are different than yours. For example, let's say that you've never been to the United Kingdom. Since people there speak "English", you won't have any problem communicating, right? Well, not quite. You might get some amused looks if you ask for the "public bathroom", and you might be very puzzled if someone says to you, "I'll knock you up around half-ten." If you ask for "chips", you may not get what you expected. In the same way, there are "different mores and customs" in newsgroups and mailing lists. To us, things like "make the messages easy to read", "use quoting", etc. are obvious, but how the H*LL are newbies supposed to know this? I see very few people trying to politely correct newbies, but many people "going postal" after one-too-many newbie questions. > Example of people wanting someone else to do their homework: > > "I noticed FreeBSD's malloc() does not return an error when it > allocates more memory than available. Can't you do [options]?" While I'm sure you believe that all people who post questions like this, want others to do their homework for them, I don't see that. From that one "message", I can't tell the poster's motives or thought processes. I just see someone asking a question. Possible, correct response(s) to such a question include: * Ignore it. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. * Answer: "No, doing so is non-trivial. The reasons for this have been mentioned in numerous other postings, and so, for more information, please read the XXX mailing list archives on YYY. Try searchiing for `ZZZ'." If you do answer, do *NOT* use emotionally-loaded words, like "lazy" or "clueless". Flamefests lie that way. [ I'm using the word, "clueless", because I'm trying to hammer a point across. ] > This is a recurring thread, you can look up on the archives to read > how it goes. And how is the newbie supposed to know this, if no one tells them? Also, telling them via insults and the like is, well, rude. > Basically, the person doesn't like the present > behavior, and would like to have an alternative (or have it changed > completely). This is, believe it or not, a reasonable question/belief/expectation. If it's really asked that commonly, why not turn it into a FAQ? -- Darryl Okahata darrylo@sr.hp.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Hewlett-Packard, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 17:31:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925C0151AB for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15968; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:49:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Christoph Kukulies , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: qcam/cqcam driver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 4 Oct 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Christoph Kukulies writes: > > Just a question: has the Quickcam and ColorQuickcam (if there was any) > > been removed from the kernel? And, if yes, for what reason? > > Yeah, they were nuked ages ago. > > OTOH, I always wanted one of those babies, and ISTR that Connectix has > a free developer program where you can sign up to get tech specs and > stuff. If somebody donates the eq I might hack up a KLD module :) As far as I remeber it was under some pretty strict NDA because of the compression scheme used by the cameras. Quickcam is now owned by Logitech and there aren't even any notes about a Linux driver. If you do want something that sort of works, there's some utilities in the ports system that will talk to a quickcam bw/I/II as far as the newer models (VC/pro) i'm not so sure they are supported. How good is logitech at providing specifications for third party drivers? Anyhow, the bt848 stuff kicks butt, why would you want to waste so much CPU on a non-versitile parralell port thingy, than a bus mastering PCI capture card that sells for about the same price? :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 18:45:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0418314C93 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA26402; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:45:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Message-Id: <199910050145.VAA26402@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: David Gilbert Cc: Julian Elischer , Brian Somers , Wes Peters , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: PPPoE offer. References: <199910040621.HAA00486@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> <14328.39710.398385.552396@trooper.velocet.net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Oct 1999 08:18:38 EDT." <14328.39710.398385.552396@trooper.velocet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 21:45:32 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [on PPPoE] > > Well... a few toronto people and I got together (I'm trying to find > email addresses) to discuss the problem. One particular thought that > we had was that it would be cool if a single ppp process could handle > a large number of connections. We also discussed the fact that you > may very well want some low-level routing of the PPPoE packets. > > The cost model with our telco (at least) is that each ethernet > connection costs $1500/mo. So... we need to be able to run somewhere > around 5K to 10K connections (users) down each pipe. This means that > a box on the front end to "route" the packets to multiple boxes is an > asset. So just use an Ethernet bridge. You could play some games with the discovery protocol (which uses broadcast MAC frames) with multiple servers are the remote end. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 20: 9:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles550.castles.com [208.214.165.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F5C14D57 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00892; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:02:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910050302.UAA00892@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Christoph Kukulies Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qcam/cqcam driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Oct 1999 12:46:07 +0200." <199910041046.MAA58962@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 20:02:06 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Just a question: has the Quickcam and ColorQuickcam (if there was any) > been removed from the kernel? And, if yes, for what reason? In the time it took you to ask this question, you could have searched the CVS commit logs in $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/commitlogs and found the answers to your question. This would have saved countless megabytes of network traffic and many hundreds of man-hours reading time. This message is not a flame. It is meant to be a helpful suggestion that you and hopefully many others will bear in mind such that similar questions to this one are answered before they're asked. There are enormous self-help resources available to you that will give much faster gratification than demanding someone else do your work for you. If you can't work out how to use those resources, this is certainly a good place to ask about it. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 20:44:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B11151C8 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:44:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 11YLWK-0005OY-00; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:44:08 -0600 Message-ID: <37F97400.BBA4643B@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 21:44:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darryl Okahata Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) References: <199910050015.RAA29289@mina.sr.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Darryl Okahata wrote: > > ... however, how the H*LL are the clueless newbie hordes supposed > to know or learn this? As much as we'd like them to be, they're not > exactly born with this knowledge, and I somehow doubt there's an "XXX > for Dummies" book that covers this. The old-fashioned way: look before you leap. It is common courtesy to read any newsgroup or mail list long enough to get a feel for it before jumping in and making an ass of yourself. We shouldn't have to rename a list called freebsd-hackers into freebsd-hackers-clueless-newbies-stay-away just because a couple of children have trouble accepting that nobody had the time to answer their questions. This is and has been common courtesy on Usenet newsgroups and Usenet, later Internet mailing lists, since I've had Usenet access - about 1985. If you don't know that, you don't even belong on the net, let alone this newsgroup. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 4 21:40:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from tardis.patho.gen.nz (tardis.patho.gen.nz [203.97.2.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E6414D57 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:40:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jabley@tardis.patho.gen.nz) Received: (from jabley@localhost) by tardis.patho.gen.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09503; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:36:25 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:36:24 +1300 From: Joe Abley To: Wes Peters Cc: Darryl Okahata , "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Message-ID: <19991005173624.A24872@patho.gen.nz> References: <199910050015.RAA29289@mina.sr.hp.com> <37F97400.BBA4643B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <37F97400.BBA4643B@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 09:44:00PM -0600 X-Files: the Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 09:44:00PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > [common courtesy] > > This is and has been common courtesy on Usenet newsgroups and Usenet, > later Internet mailing lists, since I've had Usenet access - about 1985. > If you don't know that, you don't even belong on the net, let alone this > newsgroup. I think you may have identified a wider problem than just freebsd-hackers :) Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 0:29:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from atlrel1.hp.com (atlrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7537155B9 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:29:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darrylo@sr.hp.com) Received: from postal.sr.hp.com (root@postal.sr.hp.com [15.4.46.173]) by atlrel1.hp.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id DAA11463; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 03:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mina.sr.hp.com (root@mina.sr.hp.com [15.4.42.247]) by postal.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17190)/8.7.3 TIS 5.0) id AAA12642; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (darrylo@mina.sr.hp.com [15.4.42.247]) by mina.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.7.3 TIS 5.0) id AAA04586; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910050728.AAA04586@mina.sr.hp.com> To: Wes Peters Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Reply-To: Darryl Okahata In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Oct 1999 21:44:00 MDT." <37F97400.BBA4643B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 00:28:17 -0700 From: Darryl Okahata Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Darryl Okahata wrote: > > > > ... however, how the H*LL are the clueless newbie hordes supposed > > to know or learn this? As much as we'd like them to be, they're not > > exactly born with this knowledge, and I somehow doubt there's an "XXX > > for Dummies" book that covers this. > > The old-fashioned way: look before you leap. It is common courtesy to read > any newsgroup or mail list long enough to get a feel for it before jumping > in and making an ass of yourself. The "old-fashioned way"? While the "look before you leap" philosophy, which is excellent advice, has been around Usenet since time immemorial, I've yet to meet or hear about anyone that's actually done it (when they were a newbie, that is), although people here could be the first. As much as we'd like people to follow the "old-fashioned way", the Usenet/Internet is a strange, unfamiliar place. Even intelligent people have trouble applying "common sense" to it, at least at first. Treating all questions as "novice crud, to be shunned/insulted", is not very productive. It makes the FreeBSD crowd look like they're saying "see figure 1" to all newcomers. [ For those of you young enough to not know what "see figure 1" is, see: http://www.things.org/~jym/fun/see-figure-1.html ] > We shouldn't have to rename a list called > freebsd-hackers into freebsd-hackers-clueless-newbies-stay-away just because > a couple of children have trouble accepting that nobody had the time to > answer their questions. I agree. I feel the same way about adults who act like children. However, people seem to be treating all "non-advanced" questions as "useless novice crud, to be insulted and shunned". There's got to be something in the middle ground. On the one hand, you definitely don't want to cater to the lazy, but you also don't want to treat all "simpler questions" as crud. It's like using an incinerator to kill fleas on a dog; yes, it works, but it has undesirable side-effects. If someone sees one of these "simpler" questions, they should either ignore it, point them to the FAQ (assuming that the FAQ has an answer), or post a polite answer, without emotionally-loaded phrases. > This is and has been common courtesy on Usenet newsgroups and Usenet, > later Internet mailing lists, since I've had Usenet access - about 1985. > If you don't know that, you don't even belong on the net, let alone this > newsgroup. Ah. This here's a pefect example of an emotionally-loaded and possibly insulting sentence. Yes, what is said is largely true, but it's said in a fashion that is, well, rude (this doesn't bother me, but it would definitely bother other people). -- Darryl Okahata darrylo@sr.hp.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Hewlett-Packard, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 3:59:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B42C2155C2 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 03:58:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p08-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.105]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id TAA16273; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:54:11 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37F9D827.93D22E39@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 19:51:19 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darryl Okahata Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) References: <199910050015.RAA29289@mina.sr.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Darryl Okahata wrote: > > > There are things one can do to improve their chances of seeing the > > message answered. For example: > > ... excellent advice, which everyone should follow. > > ... however, how the H*LL are the clueless newbie hordes supposed > to know or learn this? As much as we'd like them to be, they're not > exactly born with this knowledge, and I somehow doubt there's an "XXX > for Dummies" book that covers this. First, a newbie is supposed to be polite *always*. He is supposed to be BORN knowing that, and, failing that, have that knowledge hammered into his head continuously by his parents until he knows it by heart. Second, The clueless newbie hordes are not supposed to post to -hackers. And they are supposed to infer that from the list charter. Failing that, one is never supposed to open his mouth before figuring out whether it's appropriate or not, in any time or place in life. Finally, the clueless newbie hordes, failing to do any of the above, might just *ask*. Why the hell does the clueless newbie hordes expects any answer when posting a message to a list without reading the list charter and without a single clue of how the list works is beyond me. > In the same way, there are "different mores and customs" in > newsgroups and mailing lists. To us, things like "make the messages > easy to read", "use quoting", etc. are obvious, but how the H*LL are > newbies supposed to know this? I see very few people trying to politely > correct newbies, but many people "going postal" after one-too-many > newbie questions. Newbies are f*cking supposed to go to freebsd-newbies and freebsd-questions, were they can be as f*cking clueless as they want. They are *not* supposed to come to -hackers. If they are not happy with how things works in -hackers, one more reason for them to go away. There is people trying to achieve things here in -hackers, and clueless noise only detracts from that. Of course, that's no reason to be impolite to these newbies. I'm just explaining that they have no place here in this list, and that's that. It's not a newbies list. Now, if the newbie in question keeps inflicting his cluelessness upon us, he *will* get hammered back. That just happens when you keep annoying people. > > Example of people wanting someone else to do their homework: > > > > "I noticed FreeBSD's malloc() does not return an error when it > > allocates more memory than available. Can't you do [options]?" > > While I'm sure you believe that all people who post questions like > this, want others to do their homework for them, I don't see that. > > From that one "message", I can't tell the poster's motives or > thought processes. I just see someone asking a question. Then let's explain it to you. 1) "Can't *YOU* ...". No, we can't. But if you send us the patches, we'll be glad to look at it. 2) "Can't you do [options]?" You didn't spent a single hour researching the subject, did you? Because if you did, you wouldn't be discussing the general solutions, you would be discussing possible implementations, and what problems you found while examine the source code. > Possible, correct response(s) to such a question include: > > * Ignore it. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. I recall you complaining about being ignored three times. Now, let me tell you, a clueless message is *NOISE*. Noise bothers. Noise gets in the way. So it is *not* ok for people to post anything it comes to their mind, and expect it to just get ignored if it turns out to be noise. > * Answer: > > "No, doing so is non-trivial. The reasons for this have been > mentioned in numerous other postings, and so, for more > information, please read the XXX mailing list archives on YYY. > Try searchiing for `ZZZ'." > > If you do answer, do *NOT* use emotionally-loaded words, like "lazy" or > "clueless". Flamefests lie that way. Why don't you just try searching for the previous instances of the thread I mentioned, and see what *really* happens for yourself? Hint: that answer above is never the end. > > This is a recurring thread, you can look up on the archives to read > > how it goes. As I said. > And how is the newbie supposed to know this, if no one tells them? A newbie is supposed to *SEARCH* the list archives before posting. I'm pretty sure this is also mentioned in the lists charters. But, alas, you miss the point. I was just giving an example of people wanting their work done for them. I ask *YOU*, not a generic person, to look it up so *YOU* can see for yourself this kind of thing at work. > Also, telling them via insults and the like is, well, rude. For all the flame wars that keep recurring on -hackers, the amount of actual insults is quite low. Harshness, on the other hand, is plentyful. Alas, that is in the eye of the beholder. You'll see lots of threads with very harsh messages in which nobody seems to be minding it. It's just that we use the list to exchange technical content, and, when conveying technical content, politeness is not a requisite. > > Basically, the person doesn't like the present > > behavior, and would like to have an alternative (or have it changed > > completely). > > This is, believe it or not, a reasonable > question/belief/expectation. If it's really asked that commonly, why > not turn it into a FAQ? That's actually a good idea. Tell you what, you read the previous threads and prepare a good FAQ entry in docbook, send me the patches and I'll commit it. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Rule 69: Do unto other's code as you'd have it done unto yours To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 4:22:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2EA714D58 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 04:21:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p28-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.157]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id UAA20456; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:18:39 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37F9DE2B.52701159@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 20:16:59 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darryl Okahata Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) References: <199910050728.AAA04586@mina.sr.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Darryl Okahata wrote: > > The "old-fashioned way"? While the "look before you leap" > philosophy, which is excellent advice, has been around Usenet since time > immemorial, I've yet to meet or hear about anyone that's actually done > it (when they were a newbie, that is), although people here could be the > first. Pleased to meet you. My name is Daniel Sobral, and I have always done so since I first joined Fidonet & Bitnet, back in 1990. Now you know someone. As a matter of fact, in one of the lists I subscribe to, I have never *EVER* seen someone make a first post without mentioning that they have been lurking for a while. So, it's not that uncommon. > As much as we'd like people to follow the "old-fashioned way", the > Usenet/Internet is a strange, unfamiliar place. Even intelligent people > have trouble applying "common sense" to it, at least at first. Treating > all questions as "novice crud, to be shunned/insulted", is not very "Insulted"? You were complaining about being ignored. > productive. It makes the FreeBSD crowd look like they're saying "see > figure 1" to all newcomers. Let me introduce you to the lists charters, at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL. I'll call this link "figure 1" from here on. > I agree. I feel the same way about adults who act like children. > However, people seem to be treating all "non-advanced" questions as > "useless novice crud, to be insulted and shunned". There's got to be > something in the middle ground. On the one hand, you definitely don't > want to cater to the lazy, but you also don't want to treat all > "simpler questions" as crud. It's like using an incinerator to kill > fleas on a dog; yes, it works, but it has undesirable side-effects. Simple questions? See figure 1. > If someone sees one of these "simpler" questions, they should > either ignore it, point them to the FAQ (assuming that the FAQ has an > answer), or post a polite answer, without emotionally-loaded phrases. Rather, these people should have seen figure 1. How the hell they came upon -hackers without seeing figure 1, anyway? > > This is and has been common courtesy on Usenet newsgroups and Usenet, > > later Internet mailing lists, since I've had Usenet access - about 1985. > > If you don't know that, you don't even belong on the net, let alone this > > newsgroup. > > Ah. This here's a pefect example of an emotionally-loaded and > possibly insulting sentence. Yes, what is said is largely true, but > it's said in a fashion that is, well, rude (this doesn't bother me, but > it would definitely bother other people). He is being direct. The point here is that we are NOT treating you like someone who made a simple question. We are treating you as someone who came upon a discussion, made a comment that is widely disagreed with, and kept discussing, though slowly changing the initial position you defended into another one, as to better deal with what we argued. At this point, we often resort to being direct, because we feel we might have been too oblique in the previous messages. As for the last sentence in particular, see figure 1. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Rule 69: Do unto other's code as you'd have it done unto yours To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 4:34:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ockle.nanoteq.co.za (ockle.nanoteq.co.za [196.37.91.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A2414EF1 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 04:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za) Received: from oskar.nanoteq.co.za (localhost.nanoteq.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by ockle.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA64046; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:30:20 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za) Message-ID: <37F9E142.EE33D671@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:30:11 +0200 From: Johan Kruger Reply-To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Organization: Nanoteq X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, marcel@scc.nl Subject: Release build Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------188FE064532A5DE335939E96" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------188FE064532A5DE335939E96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last week the releases built fine, now i get the following error : ------------------------------------------------------- cd /usr/src/kerberosIV/lib/libsl ; make install DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/krb SHARED=copies ===> lib/libacl cd /usr/src/kerberosIV/lib/libacl ; make install DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/krb SHARED=copies install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 /usr/src/kerberosIV/lib/libacl/../../../crypto/kerberosIV/lib/acl/acl.h /R/stage/trees/krb/usr/include install: mkstemp: /R/stage/trees/krb/usr/INS@3565 for /R/stage/trees/krb/usr/include: No such file or directory *** Error code 71 -------------------------------------------------------- Does anybody know why ( i know that the directory /R/stage/trees/krb/ does not exist , but the directory /R/stage/trees/krb4/ do exist ) ?? --------------188FE064532A5DE335939E96 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jkruger.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Johan Kruger Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jkruger.vcf" begin:vcard n:Kruger;Johan tel;cell:+27 83 3015923 tel;fax:+27 12 6651343 tel;home:+27 83 3015923 tel;work:+27 12 6651338 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Nanoteq;Development version:2.1 email;internet:jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za title:Mr adr;quoted-printable:;;P.O BOX 12872=0D=0AOnderstepoort=0D=0A0110=0D=0ASouth Africa;Pretoria;Gauteng;0110;South Africa x-mozilla-cpt:;0 fn:Johan Kruger end:vcard --------------188FE064532A5DE335939E96-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 6:14:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E28314CFD for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 06:11:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA88001; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:09:14 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from jhay) From: John Hay Message-Id: <199910051309.PAA88001@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: Release build In-Reply-To: <37F9E142.EE33D671@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> from Johan Kruger at "Oct 5, 1999 01:30:11 pm" To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:09:14 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@scc.nl X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Last week the releases built fine, now i get the following error : > ------------------------------------------------------- > cd /usr/src/kerberosIV/lib/libsl ; make install > DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/krb SHARED=copies > ===> lib/libacl > cd /usr/src/kerberosIV/lib/libacl ; make install > DESTDIR=/R/stage/trees/krb SHARED=copies > install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 > /usr/src/kerberosIV/lib/libacl/../../../crypto/kerberosIV/lib/acl/acl.h > /R/stage/trees/krb/usr/include > install: mkstemp: /R/stage/trees/krb/usr/INS@3565 for > /R/stage/trees/krb/usr/include: No such file or directory > *** Error code 71 > -------------------------------------------------------- > Does anybody know why ( i know that the directory /R/stage/trees/krb/ > does not exist , but the directory /R/stage/trees/krb4/ do exist ) ?? You are using an old /usr/src/release/Makefile? John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 6:32:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from atreju.lan.attic.ch (atreju.lan.attic.ch [194.235.47.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132FE155EE for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 06:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mb@imp.ch) Received: from imp.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by atreju.lan.attic.ch (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA16883 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:34:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mb@imp.ch) Message-ID: <37F9FE5B.7D27F186@imp.ch> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 15:34:19 +0200 From: Martin Blapp Reply-To: mb@imp.ch Organization: Improware AG X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not many people are aware that our userland mount_nfs(8) and umount(8) support the following NFS-URL-syntax: mount /some/path/to/directory@nfs-server /mntpoint This, however, seems to be BSD-specific. Neither Solaris, Linux, Irix or any other Operating System support this syntax. RFC 2224 does not mention anything about this as well. While this feature does not really add functionality, it does lead to several problems: 1. Parsing a NFS-Path with directory-components which include ':' or '@' in their path gets difficult. To support it, mount_nfs(8) and umount(8) have to handle several exceptions: - nfs-server:/some@stupid/p@th - some:stu:pid/@pa:th@nfsserver The chars ':' and '@' are allowed in pathnames. 2. 'nfs-server:/some/path' and '/some/path@nfsserver' should be equal. But umount(8) does not recognize them as equal. You are obliged to give the exact variant you had choosen before. 3. Is is really difficult to recognise whether the nfs-path should be relative or absolute. According to RFC 2224 and RFC 2054, NFS does allow absolute _AND_ relative NFS paths. The relative path depends on where the public filehandle of the nfs-server is stored. If we allow both variants with ':' and '@' as delimitors, there may be a lot of complicated situations as described in (1). I propose to remove the '@' feature because of the above reasons. It is much easier to fix our userland mount(8) and umount(8) commands to handle the different situations properly as described in the RFC. Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 8:11: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF7F152BF for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:11:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16509 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:11:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Message-Id: <199910051511.LAA16509@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: Stupid Newbie questions (was re: developer assessment) To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:11:01 -0400 (EDT) From: mwlucas@gltg.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Might the following be helpful? Or, does it exist somewhere on the net now? http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~dispatch/stupid-bsd-questions.txt If it is of any use, I'll clean it up for general consumption. ==ml (who prefers to curse the candle, as opposed to light the darkness) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 8:25:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C5214D67 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA06432 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199910051522.LAA06432@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:21:36 -0400 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Dennis Subject: ARPs on a bridge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is there a way to force a Freebsd system to route to the same logican IP network rather than send a redirect? The situation occurs with segmented bridges where customers on the same logical IP network are on separate bridge groups. When trying to reach one another, they are getting redirects however they are not permitted to arp across groups. So in order to work, the ip traffic must be routed throught the main bridge even though the target IP network is on the same logical net. is there a way to force this? dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 8:44:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from atlrel2.hp.com (atlrel2.hp.com [156.153.255.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19195152BB for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darrylo@sr.hp.com) Received: from postal.sr.hp.com (root@postal.sr.hp.com [15.4.46.173]) by atlrel2.hp.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id LAA25447; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mina.sr.hp.com (root@mina.sr.hp.com [15.4.42.247]) by postal.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17190)/8.7.3 TIS 5.0) id IAA02046; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (darrylo@mina.sr.hp.com [15.4.42.247]) by mina.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.7.3 TIS 5.0) id IAA16737; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910051542.IAA16737@mina.sr.hp.com> To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Reply-To: Darryl Okahata In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Oct 1999 19:51:19 +0900." <37F9D827.93D22E39@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 08:42:56 -0700 From: Darryl Okahata Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > Why the hell does the clueless newbie hordes expects any answer when > posting a message to a list without reading the list charter and > without a single clue of how the list works is beyond me. No one's disputing this. In fact, I agree with you. > Of course, that's no reason to be impolite to these newbies. I'm > just explaining that they have no place here in this list, and > that's that. It's not a newbies list. Now, if the newbie in question > keeps inflicting his cluelessness upon us, he *will* get hammered > back. That just happens when you keep annoying people. There's the problem. While I agree with you about persistent, annoying, and utterly clueless newbies, I don't agree with the apparent sentiment (with which you may or may not agree) where all newbies (and not just in -hackers) should be flamed and roasted. I've seen perfectly innocent questions (asked once), from non-persistent/non-annoying newbies, get flamed in -questions. > I recall you complaining about being ignored three times. Heh. It wasn't me complaining. You need to go back and read the thread. > > This is, believe it or not, a reasonable > > question/belief/expectation. If it's really asked that commonly, why > > not turn it into a FAQ? > > That's actually a good idea. Tell you what, you read the previous > threads and prepare a good FAQ entry in docbook, send me the patches > and I'll commit it. I'll take you up on this, if you can guarantee that it'll show up on the FreeBSD web page FAQ in a reasonable period of time (say, preferably under two weeks, but definitely under a month). A couple of years ago, I did submit some FAQ entries, which seemingly took a geologically long period of time to appear in a useful location (the web page). And this is why I stopped writing FAQ entries: if I write a FAQ entry, I want it to be useful and made available to those who need it -- I don't want it to sit around buried in the repository, where only the people who don't need it have access to it. Of course, this was a couple of years ago, and things may have changed. However, as the FreeBSD FAQ still appears to say that it's for 2.X (it's confusing, actually), perhaps not. [ And, yes, I'm more than willing to submit proper docbook patches, if they'll be made available to newbies (e.g., on the web page FAQ) within a reasonable amount of time. ] -- Darryl Okahata darrylo@sr.hp.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Hewlett-Packard, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 9:10: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C36815370 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:09:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id SAA10763; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:12:15 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199910051712.SAA10763@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: ARPs on a bridge To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:12:15 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910051522.LAA06432@etinc.com> from "Dennis" at Oct 5, 99 10:21:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1079 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Is there a way to force a Freebsd system to route to the same logican IP > network rather than send a redirect? > > The situation occurs with segmented bridges where customers on the same > logical IP network are on separate bridge groups. When trying to reach one > another, they are getting redirects however they are not permitted to arp > across groups. what kind of broken bridges do you have in mind which do not pass broadcast traffic ? (and if the answer is FreeBSD 3.2R, yest this is a known bug with some cards, and i have a fix ready for commit as soon as i get a chance to breath). cheers luigi -----------------------------------+------------------------------------- Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . Dip. di Ing. dell'Informazione http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ . Universita` di Pisa TEL/FAX: +39-050-568.533/522 . via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ngc99/ ==== First International Workshop on Networked Group Communication ==== -----------------------------------+------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 9:22:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C87381562C for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA43803; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Martin Blapp Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) In-Reply-To: <37F9FE5B.7D27F186@imp.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Martin Blapp wrote: > 1. Parsing a NFS-Path with directory-components which include ':' > or '@' in their path gets difficult. To support it, > mount_nfs(8) and umount(8) have to handle several exceptions: > > - nfs-server:/some@stupid/p@th > - some:stu:pid/@pa:th@nfsserver > > The chars ':' and '@' are allowed in pathnames. You could parse these with some sort of iterative parser (parse it one way, if it doesn't work parse it another way), but that would be tricky to code and could have some interesting security implications. > > 2. 'nfs-server:/some/path' and '/some/path@nfsserver' should be > equal. But umount(8) does not recognize them as equal. You are > obliged to give the exact variant you had choosen before. I find that reasonable. > > 3. Is is really difficult to recognise whether the nfs-path should > be relative or absolute. According to RFC 2224 and RFC 2054, > NFS does allow absolute _AND_ relative NFS paths. The relative > path depends on where the public filehandle of the nfs-server is > stored. > > If we allow both variants with ':' and '@' as delimitors, > there may be a lot of complicated situations as described > in (1). > > I propose to remove the '@' feature because of the above reasons. It is > > much easier to fix our userland mount(8) and umount(8) commands to > handle the different situations properly as described in the RFC. If you want to do this, I suggest a round of releases that have mount complain about the @ syntax before you kill it. POLA, you know. A complaint such as: WARNING: path@server syntax is deprecated, use server:path would be sufficient. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 9:57:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.imp.ch (mail.imp.ch [157.161.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A71152E7 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mb@imp.ch) Received: from mephisto.imp.ch (mephisto.imp.ch [157.161.1.22]) by mail.imp.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09243; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:56:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (mb@localhost) by mephisto.imp.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14531; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:56:56 +0200 (MES) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:56:56 +0200 From: Martin Blapp To: Doug White Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If you want to do this, I suggest a round of releases that have mount > complain about the @ syntax before you kill it. POLA, you know. > > A complaint such as: > > WARNING: path@server syntax is deprecated, use server:path > > would be sufficient. A good idea, but how can one make a difference between delimitors and path-components ? This would be impossible in some cases. Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 11:29:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565C214D4B for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:29:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA07146; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:25:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199910051825.OAA07146@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:24:49 -0400 To: Luigi Rizzo From: Dennis Subject: Re: ARPs on a bridge Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910051712.SAA10763@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> References: <199910051522.LAA06432@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:12 PM 10/5/99 +0100, Luigi Rizzo wrote: >> Is there a way to force a Freebsd system to route to the same logican IP >> network rather than send a redirect? >> >> The situation occurs with segmented bridges where customers on the same >> logical IP network are on separate bridge groups. When trying to reach one >> another, they are getting redirects however they are not permitted to arp >> across groups. > >what kind of broken bridges do you have in mind which do not pass >broadcast traffic ? (and if the answer is FreeBSD 3.2R, yest this is a >known bug with some cards, and i have a fix ready for commit as soon as >i get a chance to breath). On a DSL bridge you have 150 to 900 customers bridged on a relatively low bandwidth line (frame relay in this case). Forwarding broadcast traffic is very undesireable as you have to replicate the packet 900 times, and since you know the IP assignement for the DLCI you dont need to forward it to everyone. Each customer is on a different bridge group so traffic cannot be bridged between them, so you have to route, but you dont want to have to allocate a subnet to each bridge group either. The problem is that, from the FreeBSD boxes view, you are routing to the same logical net (assuming that all of the bridge groups are in the same IP space. We're not talking about bridging a couple of ethernets here. Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 11:33:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474E8151FA for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA07150; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199910051826.OAA07150@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:25:48 -0400 To: Luigi Rizzo From: Dennis Subject: Re: ARPs on a bridge Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199910051712.SAA10763@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> References: <199910051522.LAA06432@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >what kind of broken bridges do you have in mind which do not pass >broadcast traffic ? (and if the answer is FreeBSD 3.2R, yest this is a >known bug with some cards, and i have a fix ready for commit as soon as >i get a chance to breath). this is not your bridge code, btw, this is our implementation. Dennis > > cheers > luigi > >-----------------------------------+------------------------------------- > Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . Dip. di Ing. dell'Informazione > http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ . Universita` di Pisa > TEL/FAX: +39-050-568.533/522 . via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) > > http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ngc99/ >==== First International Workshop on Networked Group Communication ==== >-----------------------------------+------------------------------------- > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 11:52:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n66.san.rr.com (dt011n66.san.rr.com [204.210.13.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86EC0153A6 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt011n66.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA43552; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:51:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt011n66.san.rr.com To: Luoqi Chen Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: zalloci/pv_entry problem (Was: Weird sockname errors with -current and apache) In-Reply-To: <199910042352.TAA09480@lor.watermarkgroup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Luoqi Chen wrote: > If you have a crash dump, could you look at the 4 longwords starting > at address 0xc02698c0? It seemed to be an accouting problem. Do you > by any chance use any kld module? zalloc() calls from within a module > do not lock the vm_zone data structure, which is fine for UP but > dangerous for SMP. Well the same machine crashed in the same place, so I can look at the current crash for you: Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode mp_lock = 01000002; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 fault virtual address = 0x800018 fault code = supervisor read, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xc01d1107 stack pointer = 0x10:0xdc98fe28 frame pointer = 0x10:0xdc98fe34 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 41226 (httpd) interrupt mask = net tty bio cam <- SMP: XXX kernel: type 12 trap, code=0 Stopped at zalloci+0x33: movl 0(%edx),%eax db> trace zalloci(c02698c0,dc98fe58,c01f24c3,da07e7a4,91bb000) at zalloci+0x33 get_pv_entry(da07e7a4,91bb000,ffc246ec,0,dc98fe90) at get_pv_entry+0x4a pmap_insert_entry(da07e7a4,91bb000,c0572b60,8206000) at pmap_insert_entry+0x1f pmap_copy(da07e7a4,dc8eeb64,80c6000,1f85000,80c6000) at pmap_copy+0x1a0 vm_map_copy_entry(dc8eeb00,da07e740,dc8327a8,dc861ed8) at vm_map_copy_entry+0xdf vmspace_fork(dc8eeb00,dc8e9ce0,dc8e9ce0,bfbfddbc,dc98ff30) at vmspace_fork+0x1d3 vm_fork(dc8ea940,dc8e9ce0,14) at vm_fork+0x2f fork1(dc8ea940,14,dc98ff48,dc8ea940,9) at fork1+0x621 fork(dc8ea940,dc98ff80,805b36c,30,bfbfddbc) at fork+0x16 syscall(c01e002f,2f,2f,bfbfddbc,30) at syscall+0x19e Xint0x80_syscall() at Xint0x80_syscall+0x31 I _think_ I'm doing the long word check right, but it's not returning anything: db> x/l 0xc02698c0 db> x/l 0xdc98fe58 db> x/l 0xc01f24c3 db> x/l 0xda07e7a4 db> x/l 0x91bb000 There was also nothing for 0xffc246ec in the get_pv_entry line, and the 0 in that line looks like a bad thing to me. In the next line: db> x/l 0xc0572b60 db> x/l 0x8206000 In vmspace_fork: db> x/l 0xdc8e9ce0 db> x/l 0xbfbfddbc db> x/l 0xdc98ff30 vm_fork: db> x/l 0xdc8ea940 db> x/l 0xdc8e9ce0 db> x/l 0x14 fork1: db> x/l 0xdc98ff80 db> x/l 0x805b36c db> x/l 0x30 fork: db> x/l 0xdc98ff80 One other thing that I thought of related to the SMP issue is that these are Intel N440BX motherboards, and the BIOS has an option to set the "Multi-Processor Specification" or some such that was set to 1.4, with the other option being 1.1. Would it be better to set it to 1.1, or was my assumption that FreeBSD would ignore that setting anyways correct? I put more DDB stuff from this crash at http://doug.simplenet.com/DDB2.txt, let me know if there is anything else I need to do. Remote GDB is an option here if you think that'd be a better tool. I'll check to see if I'm getting dumps when the machine comes back. Thanks, Doug -- "Stop it, I'm gettin' misty." - Mel Gibson as Porter, "Payback" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 12:21:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fasterix.frmug.org (s192.paris-90.cybercable.fr [212.198.90.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B818115616 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pb@fasterix.frmug.org) Received: (from pb@localhost) by fasterix.frmug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/pb-19990315) id VAA55035; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:20:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19991005212014.A54998@fasterix.frmug.fr.net> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:20:14 +0200 From: Pierre Beyssac To: Dennis , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ARPs on a bridge References: <199910051522.LAA06432@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.8i In-Reply-To: <199910051522.LAA06432@etinc.com>; from Dennis on Tue, Oct 05, 1999 at 10:21:36AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 05, 1999 at 10:21:36AM -0400, Dennis wrote: > Is there a way to force a Freebsd system to route to the same logican IP > network rather than send a redirect? Uhm, did you try this? sysctl -w net.inet.ip.redirect=0 BTW, whether or not sending redirects, the original packet is always routed to its destination. -- Pierre Beyssac pb@fasterix.frmug.org pb@fasterix.freenix.org {Free,Net,Open}BSD, Linux : il y a moins bien, mais c'est plus cher Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 12:34:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A996155BA for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01768; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:33:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Martin Blapp Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Martin Blapp wrote: > > If you want to do this, I suggest a round of releases that have mount > > complain about the @ syntax before you kill it. POLA, you know. > > > > A complaint such as: > > > > WARNING: path@server syntax is deprecated, use server:path > > > > would be sufficient. > > A good idea, but how can one make a difference between delimitors > and path-components ? This would be impossible in some cases. Well, the current code must differentiate in some way, so attach the warning to that. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 12:51:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF60B15648 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:50:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA58549; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:50:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Message-Id: <199910051950.PAA58549@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37F9FE5B.7D27F186@imp.ch> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 15:50:41 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Martin Blapp Subject: RE: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Oct-99 Martin Blapp wrote: > Not many people are aware that our userland mount_nfs(8) and > umount(8) > support the following NFS-URL-syntax: > > mount /some/path/to/directory@nfs-server /mntpoint > > This, however, seems to be BSD-specific. Neither Solaris, Linux, Irix > or any other Operating System support this syntax. RFC 2224 does not > mention anything about this as well. Digital Unix, aka Compaq Tru64 Unix, formerly know as DEC OSF/1 supports this syntax. In fact, this is the only syntax it supports, IIRC, so FreeBSD is not the only OS to use it. --- John Baldwin -- http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 13:55:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B316414C3C for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA79655; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:54:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910052054.NAA79655@apollo.backplane.com> To: Martin Blapp Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) References: <37F9FE5B.7D27F186@imp.ch> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Not many people are aware that our userland mount_nfs(8) and umount(8) :support the following NFS-URL-syntax: : :mount /some/path/to/directory@nfs-server /mntpoint : :This, however, seems to be BSD-specific. Neither Solaris, Linux, Irix :... : :I propose to remove the '@' feature because of the above reasons. It is : :much easier to fix our userland mount(8) and umount(8) commands to :handle the different situations properly as described in the RFC. : :Martin I think that's a good idea. I'd remove it from current but not stable. When sysads eventually upgrade from stable to current they'll have a lot to do anyway, it would not be an undue burden to anyone actually using this syntax (I can't imagine there would be very many) to change as long as mount_nfs and umount give the appropriate fatal error message. The message could then be removed following the first or second 4.x release. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 13:58: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freja.webgiro.com (freja.webgiro.com [212.209.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462641564F for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 71A5D1925; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:56:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D1249DE for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:56:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:56:44 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Non-standard FFS parameters Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, The system in question (3.3-stable) needs to use a large FS (ca. 40GB). The defaults for such filesystem are ridiculous, given that it will hold at most couple of hundred big data files. So, my question is: * should I change the cpg (default 16) to some bigger value? * is it safe to run production system with non-standard block and fragment size (e.g. 32768 and 4096)? * what maximum value can I use for -i (bytes per inode) parmeter? I aalready tried 16mln ... * and finally, how th above choices affect the FS performance in my case? Thanks in advance for any insights! Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 14:19:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402ED15660 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwd@mail.apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18846 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv1.apple.com (scv1.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:19:25 -0700 Received: from [17.202.40.76] (thunder.apple.com [17.202.40.76]) by scv1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA24627 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Subject: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:19:22 -0700 x-sender: pwd@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Pat Dirks To: "FreeBSD Hackers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'm the File Systems Tech Lead at Apple in the Mac OS X Core OS group. We've been struggling with the question of how best to handle permissions on disks that are moved between systems for Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server: the problem is that numeric IDs in inodes (or their moral equivalent) written on the filesystem on one system don't necessarily map to the same user, if they're valid at all, on another system (although they MIGHT). With ZIP drives holding appreciable volumes of data and multi-gigabyte FireWire drives becoming more common this is an issue that will definitely pop up more and more as people carry data with them on removable disk filesystems. Fred Sanchez, prompted by some discussions we'd been having on the subject, posted a query here a while back that prompted quite a bit of discussion (the "Need some advice regarding portable user IDs" thread). Based in part on the points advanced here in the earlier discussion, here's the consensus we've settled on so far. I realize this is a lengthy message but any comments would be greatly appreciated. FILESYSTEM PERMISSIONS HANDLING We considered the idea of writing the system's mapping between IDs and names on the disk itself. The drawbacks of any scheme like this is that the disks must be updated constantly (at least potentially with every chgrp(2) and chown(2) call that could introduce a new ID on the filesystem, or at best at unmount()) in order to be ready for transport. The real drawback is that there's not necessarily any correlation between "Fred" on system "A" and "Fred" on my home system. They might be the same person or they might not be. Even if I could, mapping "Fred" on the newly mounted filesystem to the ID of the "Fred" in my /etc/passwd wouldn't necessarily cause the files to belong to the right person, who might be "wsanchez" on my system. Instead we decided to leave all name <-> ID mapping systems unchanged and rely on a distinction between "local" filesystems whose permissions information should be used and a "foreign" filesystem mode where owner and group IDs are ignored. DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN "LOCAL" and "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS Central to the handling of permissions on filesystems in Mac OS X will be a 64-bit globally unique ID that will be written onto the filesystem (in some format-dependent way). How this is derived is a detail to be addressed and isn't really relevant to this discussion. Some use of an Ethernet hardware address would be ideal. We considered doing the reverse (assigning a globally unique ID to every system and "stamping" it on filesystems that it mounts but that (a) doesn't permit sharing of media with permissions intact and (b) could be troublesome for read-only media) so we settled on identifying filesystems instead. The system will distinguish between "local" and "foreign" filesystems: "local" filesystem are treated exactly as all volumes are right now while "foreign" filesystem get special treatment in the form of a uniform set of permissions that's artificially supplied by the kernel filesystem: the kernel will ignore the owner and group fields on the device and sustitute a new special reserved ID for the owner and group that maps to something like "unknown". Although we plan to support this directly in the kernel filesystem, it could be enforced through a separate filesystem layer as well. The distinction between "local" and "foreign" filesystems is made on the basis of a filesystem's unique ID. The system maintains a list of "recognized" filesystem IDs; if a mounted filesystem is on the list it's treated as "local" and otherwise it's "foreign". There is a process for changing the system's handling of a filesystem ("adopting" a "foreign" filesystem, if you will), which may or may not overwrite all the permissions on the filesystem at the user's discretion. More about that later. PERMISSIONS ON "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS In calculating access permissions the user logged in on the console (or perhaps the user who mounted the filesystem) are granted the permissions of the "owner" according to the permissions on the disk. This would allow, for instance, files made deliberately read-only to the original owner of the disk to remain read-only. This may be a bit odd in cases where the original owners of two files were different because that distinction will be lost but on the whole it seemed preferable to granting the local user the equivalent of "root" access. We also considered assigning a single set of uniform permissions for every file and directory on the volume (based, say, on its mount point or an option on the mount command) but decided that would be unnecessarily inflexible. Other users in the system are granted whatever "others" permissions are written on the disk. World-readable files will still be world-readable, private files will still be private. Note that this means that if the user who's logged onto the console also telnets in from another machine they'll get the full owner access, exactly as the console user is getting. The distinction is based on user ID, not process (group). As long as the filesystem is "foreign" no owner or group changes (chown(2), chgrp(2)) are allowed (the id spaces are very possibly mutually meaningless; local name -> id mappings could make no sense to the original owner's system). chmod(2) should still work, though. SetUID and SetGID are trusted exactly as they are today, that is, only when the disk was mounted as root (and only if the volume has been accepted as "local"). ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS When a new, never before seen disk is first mounted in the system it's treated as "foreign". This can be changed (with "root" permissions) to make the filesystem "local". The filesystem's ID is added to the list of local filesystems and forever after when the disk is mounted it's treated as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: * Retain them as-is (useful for cases where you have external reasons to believe the numeric user and group IDs on the filesystem are sensible and meaningful) OR * Overwrite all owner/group information with the reserved ID "unknown". This leaves the effective permissions unchanged but enables them to be changed individually. You can chown(2) and chgrp(2) files and directories. Note that one interesting option might be to provide a one-time-only "adoption" which has no permanent effect; when the disk is encountered later it is once again "foreign". This might make sense for security reasons (if you don't want this disk to become a possible future carrier for SetUID binaries) KNOWN PROBLEMS * Restricting non-console users to the "others" category of permissions could have surprising effects when someone's umask is set to exclude any "others" access but they somehow have write permission to a directory: they'll be able to create new files and directories that they cannot access in any way. We have no good solution for this problem but it seems sufficiently rare and hopefully not too surprising for those enterprising enough to get themselves into this situation. Any comments or alternative suggestions would be greatly appreciated. If this is not a scheme you can envision being adopted by the greater *BSD world, I'd love to hear about it. Thanks for your help! -Patrick. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 14:42:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C5414E77; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([216.62.157.60]) by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FJ500MBXG9K4A@mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:41:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA94028; Tue, 05 Oct 1999 16:41:27 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) X-URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 16:41:26 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: Stupid Newbie questions (was re: developer assessment) In-reply-to: <199910051511.LAA16509@blackhelicopters.org> To: mwlucas@gltg.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, doc@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <19991005164126.I86678@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT (i386) References: <199910051511.LAA16509@blackhelicopters.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 05, 1999, mwlucas@gltg.com wrote: > Might the following be helpful? Or, does it exist somewhere on the net now? > > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~dispatch/stupid-bsd-questions.txt > > If it is of any use, I'll clean it up for general consumption. This is a very interesting article! Perhaps it could go into the handbook, or perhaps be an article of its own. -- |Chris Costello |As of next week, passwords will be entered in Morse code. `--------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 15:20:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (pau-amma.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECDE15649 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA87711; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:19:53 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199910052219.PAA87711@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: FreeBSD-Hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, pwd@apple.com Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-Reply-To: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:19:22 -0700 >From: Pat Dirks >[Lots of interesting, useful stuff elided -- dhw] >ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS >... >Note that one interesting option might be to provide a one-time-only >"adoption" which has no permanent effect; when the disk is encountered >later it is once again "foreign". This might make sense for security >reasons (if you don't want this disk to become a possible future carrier >for SetUID binaries) Actually, I would expect that from a security/integrity perspective, one would want the default to be that a re-introduced disk would be considered "foreign". This might seem unfriendly to some, but unless you really know where the medium has been, there's no basis for trusting its content any more than any other random (but otherwise equivalent) medium. A mechanism for overriding this presumption could be useful, if used in sufficient moderation. Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill dhw@whistle.com UNIX System Administrator voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (888) 347-0197 FAX: (650) 372-5915 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 15:22:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638F21530F for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:22:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mikebo@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (mikebo@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA00998 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:22:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from mikebo@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id RAA23283 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:22:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Borowiec Message-Id: <199910052222.RAA23283@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: 3.3-R: if_lnc driver problems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:22:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greetings - I have installed FBSD 3.3-R on an HP Kayak XU, and have run into some interesting problems with the AMD PCNet-Fast (if_lnc) driver. This machine has an HP combo card (PN #5183-2725 or #5064-3616) with NCR SCSI and AMD PCNet-Fast chipsets. While booting up, I get the following kernel messages: # .... # ncr0: rev 0x26 int a irq 9 on pci2.4.0 # lnc1: rev 0x25 int a irq 9 on pci2.5.0 # .... # Additional routing options: tcp extentions=NO TCP keepalive=YES # routing daemons:. # Mounting NFS filesystems # lnc1: Device timeout -- Resetting Once booted, the machine constantly spits out thousands of these: lnc1: Heartbeat error -- SQE test failed. I resorted to commenting this out in if_lnc.c because it was such a bother. However, I think there should be a better way? Anyone? Also, every few minutes I'll get one of these: lnc1: Transmit of packet failed after 16 attempts -- TDR = 0. The machine is online, and except for some strange NFS problems (which I think are unrelated) the networking seems fine. I'd be happy to help debug this. Regards, - Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 15:50:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from june.cs.washington.edu (june.cs.washington.edu [128.95.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB31E15689 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wolman@cs.washington.edu) Received: from miles.cs.washington.edu (miles.cs.washington.edu [128.95.4.177]) by june.cs.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/0.3j) with ESMTP id PAA01904; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:49:32 -0700 (envelope-from wolman@cs.washington.edu) Received: from miles.cs.washington.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.cs.washington.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA04853; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:49:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wolman@miles.cs.washington.edu) Message-Id: <199910052249.PAA04853@miles.cs.washington.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) In-Reply-To: Message from John Baldwin of "Tue, 05 Oct 1999 15:50:41 EDT." <199910051950.PAA58549@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 15:49:31 -0700 From: "Alec Wolman" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Digital Unix, aka Compaq Tru64 Unix, formerly know as DEC OSF/1 > supports this syntax. In fact, this is the only syntax it supports, > IIRC, so FreeBSD is not the only OS to use it. You are not correct when you state that this is the only syntax it supports. Digital Unix does support the host:path notation. Alec To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 16:15:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from celery.dragondata.com (celery.dragondata.com [205.253.12.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AF5156A0 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:15:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toasty@celery.dragondata.com) Received: (from toasty@localhost) by celery.dragondata.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA52090; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:13:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from toasty) From: Kevin Day Message-Id: <199910052313.SAA52090@celery.dragondata.com> Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters To: abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:13:11 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Andrzej Bialecki" at Oct 05, 1999 10:56:44 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Hi, > > The system in question (3.3-stable) needs to use a large FS (ca. 40GB). > The defaults for such filesystem are ridiculous, given that it will hold > at most couple of hundred big data files. So, my question is: > > * should I change the cpg (default 16) to some bigger value? > * is it safe to run production system with non-standard block and fragment > size (e.g. 32768 and 4096)? > * what maximum value can I use for -i (bytes per inode) parmeter? I > aalready tried 16mln ... > * and finally, how th above choices affect the FS performance in my case? > One thing that bit me before.... (from the newfs man page) BUGS The boot code of FreeBSD assumes that the file system that carries the kernel has blocks of 8 kilobytes and fragments of 1 kilobyte. You will not be able to boot from a file system that uses another size. Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 16:53:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D247156BC for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:52:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27427; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:09:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Pat Dirks Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-Reply-To: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pat Dirks wrote: > Hi, > > I'm the File Systems Tech Lead at Apple in the Mac OS X Core OS group. > We've been struggling with the question of how best to handle permissions > on disks that are moved between systems for Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server: > the problem is that numeric IDs in inodes (or their moral equivalent) > written on the filesystem on one system don't necessarily map to the same > user, if they're valid at all, on another system (although they MIGHT). > With ZIP drives holding appreciable volumes of data and multi-gigabyte > FireWire drives becoming more common this is an issue that will > definitely pop up more and more as people carry data with them on > removable disk filesystems. I think your best bet to implement something like this is looking at what mount_msdosfs in FreeBSD does, and possibly using the umapfs (mount_umap) system for mapping ID's as it sounds pretty close to what you guys are looking for. Another interesting idea would be to a utility to 'brand' removable media, so that a umapfs mapfile can be written to the disk in more friendly manner. However, it seems that a lot of this is going towards automation at guessing what a user wants, rather than allowing him to customize what he wants. > As long as the filesystem is "foreign" no owner or group changes > (chown(2), chgrp(2)) are allowed (the id spaces are very possibly > mutually meaningless; local name -> id mappings could make no sense to > the original owner's system). chmod(2) should still work, though. This is a bit kludgy and goes against POLA, if the ability exists to change it then it should be allowed unless explicitly disabled, it would be terribly annoying imo to startup some process or give multiuser access to a disk then have to shut everything down in order to properly chown something. > ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS > > When a new, never before seen disk is first mounted in the system it's > treated as "foreign". This can be changed (with "root" permissions) to > make the filesystem "local". The filesystem's ID is added to the list of > local filesystems and forever after when the disk is mounted it's treated > as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to > choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: > > * Retain them as-is (useful for cases where you have external > reasons to believe > the numeric user and group IDs on the filesystem are sensible and > meaningful) > > OR > > * Overwrite all owner/group information with the reserved ID > "unknown". This > leaves the effective permissions unchanged but enables them to be > changed > individually. You can chown(2) and chgrp(2) files and directories. > > Note that one interesting option might be to provide a one-time-only > "adoption" which has no permanent effect; when the disk is encountered > later it is once again "foreign". This might make sense for security > reasons (if you don't want this disk to become a possible future carrier > for SetUID binaries) This is very interesting, as a timesaver to the second option (overwriting) you could use the timestamp on the file's permissions to determine if the UID/GIDs are valid (if they are stale old uids, or new uid's after a chown/chgrp) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 18:38:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23AC15162 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02035 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910060127.SAA02035@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Request for hardware (drivers for Mylex, AMI, DELL, HP RAID controllers) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 18:27:58 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In brief: I'm developing drivers for the Mylex DAC960/1100 and AMI MegaRAID/Dell PERC/HP whatever families of RAID controllers, and I need some more hardware to test with. Details below. Current status: - Mylex DAC960 driver works with P/PL/PD/PU controllers. Support is planned for the older EISA controllers (documentation pending), as well as for the newer PG/PJ, AcceleRAID and eXtremeRAID controllers (requires some fixes to the bootloader). - MegaRAID driver works with some members of the Express family (at least the 466, aka Dell PERC 2/SC). I have a 418 on the way, but I need access to many other members of this family. These drivers are all originals, written with information obtained from other drivers (esp. the Linux drivers for these controllers). They will be committed to the FreeBSD source when they're a little more mature. What I need: In order to flesh out support for more of these controllers, I need to have them here in the lab. I can probably do everything that needs to be done for a given controller in about a week, so if you can only lend one for a short time, that's OK. Ideally, I'd like to be able to keep them indefinitely in order to test and evaluate them better, but I realise this isn't always practial. Since there are other issues preventing me from working on the newer/ better Mylex controllers, I want to focus on the MegaRAID units for now. If you have one or more of the following, and are able to send them to me (in California) for at least a week, please let me know. - Dell PERC 2 (not SC) - AMI MegaRAID o Enterprise 1500 o Enterprise 1400 (or -H) aka 438 o Enterprise 1300 aka 434 o Enterprise 1200 aka 428 o Express 300 - Any HP-branded MegaRaid-compatible controller Any hardware loaned will be handled correctly and returned to you at our cost. Please don't send me anything you're going to want back until I've sorted out what's coming from whom and when, so that I don't overcommit. If you just want to send something straight off (always nice!), you can ship to: Mike Smith FreeBSD Test Labs 4041 Pike Lane #F Concord, CA 94520 USA Future Plans: - I intend to try to get documentation from Infortrend on their current range of controllers (also being sold by ASUS). They have a Linux driver, but only in binary form. - All of these drivers will be backported to the 3.x branch in time for 3.4. And just as a teaser; on the Perc 2/SC that I have been using, under -current, on a 4-way Xeon/400, I'm seeing over 20MB/sec sustained read/ write on a RAID-5 arry built on five Seagate Hawk ST15230WC's (ie. fast/ wide 5400rpm drives). Thanks to: - Ulf Zimmerman for the Mylex controllers and disks he's lent so far. - Geoff Buckingham for sending the PERC 2/SC all the way from the UK. - Walnut Creek CDROM for letting me ignore almost everything else and concentrate on this project. - The folks on #bsdcode for critique and therapy. Acknowledgements: - AMI for releasing their MegaRAID driver for Linux, no matter how terrible I think it is. - Leonard Zubkoff for the Mylex driver for Linux, which is amazingly hard to read but a wonderful source of information. - An unnamed supporter inside Mylex, who has been very helpful to date. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 18:39:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from janus.syracuse.net (janus.syracuse.net [205.232.47.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CEA515211 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by janus.syracuse.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA43862; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:39:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: janus.syracuse.net: green owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:39:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian F. Feldman" X-Sender: green@janus.syracuse.net To: Daniel Eischen Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, hackers@FreeBSD.org, nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu, shocking@prth.pgs.com Subject: Re: On pthreads [Was: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase] In-Reply-To: <199910041459.KAA17005@pcnet1.pcnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What do you all think about http://www.FreeBSD.org/~green/OpenBSD.libc_r.cancel.patch ? I isolated the set of commits that added cancelling to OpenBSD's libc_r, and it seems (since they took it from us originally :) it should be relatively simple to port :/ -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 18:47:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA37715687 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 81043 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 01:44:57 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 01:44:57 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:44:57 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Pat Dirks Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-Reply-To: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pat Dirks wrote: > as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to > choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: > > * Retain them as-is (useful for cases where you have external > reasons to believe > the numeric user and group IDs on the filesystem are sensible and > meaningful) > > OR > > * Overwrite all owner/group information with the reserved ID > "unknown". This > leaves the effective permissions unchanged but enables them to be > changed > individually. You can chown(2) and chgrp(2) files and directories. What about allowing a mapping of the foreign filesystem IDs to local IDs when the filesystem is adopted. A user might well prepare a filesystem on one machine, and then want to use it permently on this. Something that would allow foreign filesystems with key X get uid 1001 mapped to 6002, and uid 1002 to 4534, everything else goes to unknown. This is easier than having to do chown -R everytime some carries a removable filesystem from home to work, or vice versa. > > Note that one interesting option might be to provide a one-time-only > "adoption" which has no permanent effect; when the disk is encountered > later it is once again "foreign". This might make sense for security > reasons (if you don't want this disk to become a possible future carrier > for SetUID binaries) I would think you want this the default behavior. David Scheidt, waiting till Mac OS X to replace his Quadra 605. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 18:49:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from faith.cs.utah.edu (faith.cs.utah.edu [155.99.198.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC0515741 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:49:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danderse@faith.cs.utah.edu) Received: (from danderse@localhost) by faith.cs.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA19349; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:48:50 -0600 (MDT) From: David G Andersen Message-Id: <199910060148.TAA19349@faith.cs.utah.edu> Subject: Re: Netscape Bus Error To: dave@dogwood.com (Dave Cornejo) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:48:50 -0600 (MDT) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, Scm486@aol.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910011924.MAA36618@white.dogwood.com> from "Dave Cornejo" at Oct 1, 99 12:24:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It most likely is. I've found a pretty reliable way to crash Netscape 4.6 and 4.7-freebsd (either us or export): Open two windows, and visit slashdot in both of them. Don't ask me _why_ it works, but it does. :) It causes the BSDI version to hang and chew CPU. The linux and windoze versions operate properly. ... I suppose I should get around to reporting this to Netscape. :) -Dave Lo and behold, Dave Cornejo once said: > > Nate Williams wrote: > > In short, it's a netscape bug.... > > maybe not - i recently received buckets of these on a system i was > experimenting with overclocking on - an upgraded heatsink fixed it. > I've also seen it when I tweak the BIOS settings a bit too > aggresively... > > -- > Dave Cornejo - Dogwood Media, Fremont, California > General Magician & Registered Be Developer > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- work: dga@lcs.mit.edu me: dga@pobox.com MIT Laboratory for Computer Science http://www.angio.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 21:49:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB03B156AE for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:49:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA81656; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:49:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:49:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910060449.VAA81656@apollo.backplane.com> To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Hi, : :The system in question (3.3-stable) needs to use a large FS (ca. 40GB). :The defaults for such filesystem are ridiculous, given that it will hold :at most couple of hundred big data files. So, my question is: : :* should I change the cpg (default 16) to some bigger value? No, let newfs figure it out. :* is it safe to run production system with non-standard block and fragment :size (e.g. 32768 and 4096)? Mmmm. I ran into problems in -current trying to use a block size of 64K. It should be relatively easy for me to track this down and fix it, but I don't know if there are other problems lying in wait. test3:/root# ps axl | fgrep nbuf 0 14265 14201 0 -2 0 620 536 nbufkv D+ p0 0:02.55 cpdup / /mnt :* what maximum value can I use for -i (bytes per inode) parmeter? I :aalready tried 16mln ... I wouldn't go that high. Try 262144. Here's an example: newfs -i 262144 -b 65536 -f 8192 /dev/rvn1c test3:/root# newfs -i 262144 -f 8192 -b 65536 /dev/rvn1c /dev/rvn1c: 83886080 sectors in 2560 cylinders of 1 tracks, 32768 sectors 40960.0MB in 160 cyl groups (16 c/g, 256.00MB/g, 1024 i/g) :* and finally, how th above choices affect the FS performance in my case? : :Thanks in advance for any insights! : :Andrzej Bialecki The higher the bytes per inode the fewer the inodes and the faster fsck will run if you have to recover the filesystem. Too high a bytes-per-inode will screw up the filesystem's ability to manage the cylinder groups, though. The higher the block size the fewer indirect blocks are required to access a linear file, but as the block size increases the system's caching effectiveness will decrease. I would not use a block size greater then 64K, and I wouldn't specify a bytes-per-inode greater then 262144. There may be problems specifying larger block sizes, though nothing that we can't fix. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 22:47:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABFE156D0 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:47:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p03-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.100]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id OAA00745; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:44:07 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FAE143.EAC94791@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 14:42:28 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darryl Okahata Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) References: <199910051542.IAA16737@mina.sr.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Darryl Okahata wrote: > > > That's actually a good idea. Tell you what, you read the previous > > threads and prepare a good FAQ entry in docbook, send me the patches > > and I'll commit it. > > I'll take you up on this, if you can guarantee that it'll show up > on the FreeBSD web page FAQ in a reasonable period of time (say, > preferably under two weeks, but definitely under a month). A couple of > years ago, I did submit some FAQ entries, which seemingly took a > geologically long period of time to appear in a useful location (the web > page). And this is why I stopped writing FAQ entries: if I write a FAQ > entry, I want it to be useful and made available to those who need it -- > I don't want it to sit around buried in the repository, where only the > people who don't need it have access to it. We did not have a FAQ mantainer then. Now we have one, and we have the nice people at faq@freebsd.org, which also take care of such things. And then, we have Super Nik, head of the documentation project, which is also very conscious about his "job". You can contact then directly, but I give you the guarantee you want. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 5 22:51: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from houston.matchlogic.com (houston.matchlogic.com [205.216.147.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB03F14DA6 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crandall@matchlogic.com) Received: by houston.matchlogic.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:50:48 -0600 Message-ID: <64003B21ECCAD11185C500805F31EC0303E7386A@houston.matchlogic.com> From: Charles Randall To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: bind(2) sets errno to undocumented EAGAIN? Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:50:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Under what conditions does bind(2) set errno to EAGAIN? The 3.2R bind(2) manual page does not list that as a valid value for errno when bind returns -1. This came up when using http_load (http://www.acme.com/software/http_load) to stress-test a local web server. In other words, using http_load to test a web server running on the same machine. Debugging a bit, I determined that a call to bind in http_load.c returns -1 and sets errno to 35 (which is defined as EAGAIN in /usr/include/errno.h). Using ktrace/kdump, 522 http_load CALL socket(0x2,0x1,0x6) 522 http_load RET socket 4 522 http_load CALL bind(0x4,0x805f404,0x10) 522 http_load RET bind -1 errno 35 Resource temporarily unavailable What resource is unavailable? Charles To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 0:54:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66FA814CB9 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:54:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id JAA12460; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:56:37 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199910060856.JAA12460@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: ARPs on a bridge To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:56:37 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910051825.OAA07146@etinc.com> from "Dennis" at Oct 5, 99 01:24:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2401 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> Is there a way to force a Freebsd system to route to the same logican IP > >> network rather than send a redirect? > >> > >> The situation occurs with segmented bridges where customers on the same > >> logical IP network are on separate bridge groups. When trying to reach one > >> another, they are getting redirects however they are not permitted to arp > >> across groups. ... (long explaination moved to the end)... I think i don't understand the architecture of the system, so could you explain a bit more about that -- i would like to learn more about this. How many physical and logical interfaces does the FreeBSD system see ? From your description this is what i understand: customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+----[ main router ]-- rest of net. | customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+ | repeat 150 to 900 times | shared frame relay without | multicast/broadcast support customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+ and the understanding is that the 'DSL bridge' is perhaps implemented with a FreeBSD-based box with an ethernet on the customer side and a suitable card on the other side. Now if the DSL bridge is "almost" a bridge (in the sense that it filters broadcast traffic) then your architecture "almost" works (except when operation depends on traffic that you filter) and you need a separate mechanism to implement the functionality killed by the filtering. E.g. recognize that some broadcasts (e.g. ARP) are special and need to be forwarded anyways... cheers luigi > On a DSL bridge you have 150 to 900 customers bridged on a relatively low > bandwidth line (frame relay in this case). Forwarding broadcast traffic is > very undesireable as you have to replicate the packet 900 times, and since > you know the IP assignement for the DLCI you dont need to forward it to > everyone. Each customer is on a different bridge group so traffic cannot be > bridged between them, so you have to route, but you dont want to have to > allocate a subnet to each bridge group either. The problem is that, from > the FreeBSD boxes view, you are routing to the same logical net (assuming > that all of the bridge groups are in the same IP space. > > We're not talking about bridging a couple of ethernets here. > > Dennis > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 1: 0:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1DD14F8E; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:59:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.198.45]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB519D; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:59:18 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10581; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:57:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:57:57 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: Daniel Eischen , hackers@FreeBSD.org, nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu, shocking@prth.pgs.com, jb@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On pthreads [Was: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase] Message-ID: <19991006095757.A8987@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199910041459.KAA17005@pcnet1.pcnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991006 04:02], Brian F. Feldman (green@FreeBSD.org) wrote: >What do you all think about >http://www.FreeBSD.org/~green/OpenBSD.libc_r.cancel.patch >? I isolated the set of commits that added cancelling to OpenBSD's >libc_r, and it seems (since they took it from us originally :) it >should be relatively simple to port :/ I knew you were working on importing the OpenBSD pthread_cancel. Any idea how much fun it will be to get this into FreeBSD? -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best All for one, one for all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 3: 7:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay1.bcs.zp.ua (bcs-zyx-eth.marka.net.ua [195.248.171.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349C514C4B for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 03:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from serg@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua) Received: from bcs3.bcs.zp.ua (bcs3.bcs.zp.ua [212.8.35.73]) by relay1.bcs.zp.ua (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13450 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:02:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from serg@localhost) by bcs3.bcs.zp.ua (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28930 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:02:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from serg) From: Sergey Shkonda Message-Id: <199910061002.NAA28930@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> Subject: New command for cdcontrol(1) To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:02:14 +0300 (EEST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm using this patch for cdcontrol(1): cdid Print the xmcd's CD id. --- cdcontrol.c.orig Sun Aug 29 18:40:16 1999 +++ cdcontrol.c Wed Oct 6 12:01:35 1999 @@ -33,6 +33,7 @@ #include #include #include +#include #define VERSION "2.0" @@ -65,6 +66,7 @@ #define CMD_RESET 12 #define CMD_SET 13 #define CMD_STATUS 14 +#define CMD_CDID 15 #define STATUS_AUDIO 0x1 #define STATUS_MEDIA 0x2 #define STATUS_VOLUME 0x4 @@ -93,6 +95,7 @@ { CMD_STATUS, "status", 1, "[audio | media | volume]" }, { CMD_STOP, "stop", 3, "" }, { CMD_VOLUME, "volume", 1, " | left | right | mute | mono | stereo" }, +{ CMD_CDID, "cdid", 2, "" }, { 0, } }; @@ -112,6 +115,7 @@ int open_cd __P((void)); int play __P((char *arg)); int info __P((char *arg)); +int cdid __P((void)); int pstatus __P((char *arg)); char *input __P((int *)); void prtrack __P((struct cd_toc_entry *e, int lastflag)); @@ -252,6 +256,12 @@ return info (arg); + case CMD_CDID: + if (fd < 0 && ! open_cd ()) + return (0); + + return cdid (); + case CMD_STATUS: if (fd < 0 && ! open_cd ()) return (0); @@ -739,6 +749,92 @@ printf ("No volume level info available\n"); } return(0); +} + +/* + * dbprog_sum + * Convert an integer to its text string representation, and + * compute its checksum. Used by dbprog_discid to derive the + * disc ID. + * + * Args: + * n - The integer value. + * + * Return: + * The integer checksum. + */ +static int +dbprog_sum(int n) +{ + char buf[12], + *p; + int ret = 0; + + /* For backward compatibility this algorithm must not change */ + sprintf(buf, "%u", n); + for (p = buf; *p != '\0'; p++) + ret += (*p - '0'); + + return(ret); +} + + +/* + * dbprog_discid + * Compute a magic disc ID based on the number of tracks, + * the length of each track, and a checksum of the string + * that represents the offset of each track. + * + * Args: + * s - Pointer to the curstat_t structure. + * + * Return: + * The integer disc ID. + */ +static u_int +dbprog_discid() +{ + struct ioc_toc_header h; + int rc; + int i, ntr, + t = 0, + n = 0; + + rc = ioctl (fd, CDIOREADTOCHEADER, &h); + if (rc < 0) + return 0; + ntr = h.ending_track - h.starting_track + 1; + i = msf; + msf = 1; + rc = read_toc_entrys ((ntr + 1) * sizeof (struct cd_toc_entry)); + msf = i; + if (rc < 0) + return 0; + /* For backward compatibility this algorithm must not change */ + for (i = 0; i < ntr; i++) { +#define TC_MM(a) toc_buffer[a].addr.msf.minute +#define TC_SS(a) toc_buffer[a].addr.msf.second + n += dbprog_sum((TC_MM(i) * 60) + TC_SS(i)); + + t += ((TC_MM(i+1) * 60) + TC_SS(i+1)) - + ((TC_MM(i) * 60) + TC_SS(i)); + } + + return((n % 0xff) << 24 | t << 8 | ntr); +} + +int cdid () +{ + u_int id; + + id = dbprog_discid(); + if (id) + { + if (verbose) + printf ("CDID="); + printf ("%08x\n",id); + } + return id ? 0 : 1; } int info (char *arg) --- cdcontrol.1.orig Sun Aug 29 18:40:15 1999 +++ cdcontrol.1 Wed Oct 6 12:04:42 1999 @@ -129,6 +129,9 @@ .It Cm info Print the table of contents. +.It Cm cdid +Print the xmcd's CD id. + .It Cm status .Op Ar audio | media | volume -- Sergey Shkonda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 4: 9:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ockle.nanoteq.co.za (ockle.nanoteq.co.za [196.37.91.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C360814D49 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za) Received: from oskar.nanoteq.co.za (localhost.nanoteq.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by ockle.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA51761; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:01:36 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za) Message-ID: <37FB2C0D.886C162B@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 13:01:33 +0200 From: Johan Kruger Reply-To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Organization: Nanoteq X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jhay@mikom.csir.co.za Subject: Release 4.0-current snapshot ? Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------66E52316BC7BDA14849CD9F7" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------66E52316BC7BDA14849CD9F7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Problem with release buid breaking at kdump. ( MDF_ACTIVE' redefined - making troubles ) Real problem probably ( ioctl.c:4: sys/device.h: No such file or directory ) ------------------------------------------------------ ===> usr.bin/kdump cc -nostdinc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/../ktrace -I/usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/../.. -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include -c /usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/kdump.c /bin/sh /usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/mkioctls > ioctl.c In file included from :48: /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include/sys/memrange.h:16: warning: `MDF_ACTIVE' redefined /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include/pccard/cardinfo.h:77: warning: this is the location of the previous definition cc -nostdinc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/../ktrace -I/usr/src/usr.bin/kdump/../.. -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include -c ioctl.c ioctl.c:4: sys/device.h: No such file or directory In file included from ioctl.c:76: /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include/sys/memrange.h:16: warning: `MDF_ACTIVE' redefined /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include/pccard/cardinfo.h:77: warning: this is the location of the previous definition *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/usr.bin/kdump. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/usr.bin. *** Error code 1 ------------------------------------------------------------- Any suggestions ( probably have to check out the sources again , hey ) --------------66E52316BC7BDA14849CD9F7 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jkruger.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Johan Kruger Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jkruger.vcf" begin:vcard n:Kruger;Johan tel;cell:+27 83 3015923 tel;fax:+27 12 6651343 tel;home:+27 83 3015923 tel;work:+27 12 6651338 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Nanoteq;Development version:2.1 email;internet:jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za title:Mr adr;quoted-printable:;;P.O BOX 12872=0D=0AOnderstepoort=0D=0A0110=0D=0ASouth Africa;Pretoria;Gauteng;0110;South Africa x-mozilla-cpt:;0 fn:Johan Kruger end:vcard --------------66E52316BC7BDA14849CD9F7-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 4:43:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE28150CC; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id HAA17064; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:42:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen Message-Id: <199910061142.HAA17064@pcnet1.pcnet.com> To: asmodai@wxs.nl, green@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: On pthreads [Was: Re: I was accepted to LokiHack '99 at Atlanta Linux Showcase] Cc: eischen@vigrid.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, jb@FreeBSD.org, nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu, shocking@prth.pgs.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On [19991006 04:02], Brian F. Feldman (green@FreeBSD.org) wrote: > >What do you all think about > >http://www.FreeBSD.org/~green/OpenBSD.libc_r.cancel.patch > >? I isolated the set of commits that added cancelling to OpenBSD's > >libc_r, and it seems (since they took it from us originally :) it > >should be relatively simple to port :/ > > I knew you were working on importing the OpenBSD pthread_cancel. > > Any idea how much fun it will be to get this into FreeBSD? Did they make any changes to libc? Some of our libc routines make internal calls to cancellable routines and shouldn't be cancellable in that case. Here's what POSIX states are cancellable routines: Required cancellation points: aio_suspend(), close(), creat(), fcntl()*, fsync(), mq_receive(), mq_send(), msync(), nanosleep(), open(), pause(), pthread_cond_timedwait(), pthread_cond_wait(), pthread_join(), pthread_testcancel, read(), sem_wait(), sigwaitinfo(), sigsuspend(), sigtimedwait(), sigwait(), sleep(), system(), tcdrain(), wait(), waitpid(), write(). * fcntl() when cmd is F_SETLKW Cancellation points may also occur while a thread is executing the following functions: closedir(), ctermid(), fclose(), fcntl()*, fflush(), fgetc(), fgets(), fopen(), fprintf(), fputc(), fputs(), fread(), freopen(), fscanf(), fseek(), ftell(), fwrite(), getc(), getc_unlocked(), getchar(), getchar_unlocked(), getcwd(), getgrgid(), getgrgid_r(), getgrnam(), getgrnam_r(), getlogin(), getlogin_r(), getpwnam(), getpwnam_r(), getpwuid(), getpwuid_r(), gets(), lseek(), opendir(), perror(), printf(), putc(), putc_unlocked(), putchar(), putchar_unlocked(), puts(), readdir(), remove(), rename(), rewind(), rewinddir(), scanf(), tmpfile() tmpname(), ttyname(), ttyname_r(), ungetc(), unlink(). * fcntl() for any value of the command argument I've got some other changes waiting for JB to review. If you proceed with this, I'd like to review whatever you come up with. Dan Eischen eischen@vigrid.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 4:59:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C551512F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p20-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.149]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id UAA03060; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:58:15 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FB3064.14803393@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:20:04 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Dirks Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Pat Dirks wrote: > > ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS > > When a new, never before seen disk is first mounted in the system it's > treated as "foreign". This can be changed (with "root" permissions) to > make the filesystem "local". The filesystem's ID is added to the list of > local filesystems and forever after when the disk is mounted it's treated > as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to > choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: > > * Retain them as-is (useful for cases where you have external > reasons to believe > the numeric user and group IDs on the filesystem are sensible and > meaningful) > > OR > > * Overwrite all owner/group information with the reserved ID > "unknown". This > leaves the effective permissions unchanged but enables them to be > changed > individually. You can chown(2) and chgrp(2) files and directories. > > Note that one interesting option might be to provide a one-time-only > "adoption" which has no permanent effect; when the disk is encountered > later it is once again "foreign". This might make sense for security > reasons (if you don't want this disk to become a possible future carrier > for SetUID binaries) I see a problem with the above. Suppose I receive a disk from a friend, and then adopt it. I change owners and groups throughout the fs (chown -R usr:grp is your friend :), and work on it for a while. Later, _I return the disk to the original owner_. Now, the disk will be recognized in _his_ computer as being local, when, in fact, it should be treated as foreign. For this reason, I suggest you scrap the fs id if, when making it local, you opt to replace owners and groups. A problem might still exist where you have a superset of the owners and groups of whoever lent you the disk. In this case, you might end up adding owners and groups that do not exist in the system where the disk came from (and will be returned to). I think this is a lesser problem, though. It is no worse than uid/gid problems with NFS. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 5:12:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [194.242.128.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B3D14CC5 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@florence.pavilion.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA67545; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:05:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:05:08 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Sergey Shkonda Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) Message-ID: <19991006130508.O24928@florence.pavilion.net> References: <199910061002.NAA28930@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199910061002.NAA28930@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, 24 The Old Steine, Brighton, BN1 1EL, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:02:14PM +0300, Sergey Shkonda wrote: > I'm using this patch for cdcontrol(1): > > cdid Print the xmcd's CD id. Is the method used by xmcd used by anything else or is it just _a_ method. What's the algorithm that the cddb boys use? If it's the same then I believe that this is a useful patch. If it's different - it should be made same :) Joe -- Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today? Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 5:26:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0B114CC5 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA38285; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:26:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Voice modems From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Oct 1999 14:26:26 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 6 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Does anyone have any experience with controlling voice modems from FreeBSD, doing stuff like DTMF-driven phone reservation etc? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 5:34:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mauibuilt.com (mauibuilt.com [205.166.249.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8412D14EBC; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from puga@mauibuilt.com) Received: from mauibuilt.com (puga.mauibuilt.com [205.166.10.2]) by mauibuilt.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA17287; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 02:39:58 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from puga@mauibuilt.com) Message-ID: <37FB413C.FBF8A0A5@mauibuilt.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 02:31:56 -1000 From: Richard Puga X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Real Port Combo cardbus or legacy? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Do any of the RealPort 10/100+ 56kModem cards work with FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE using PAO3-19991005.tar.gz? I tried a frends card with no luck.. I tried using ftp://dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org/pub/scott/xe_drv/xe_drv-1.20.tar.gz but the files in /usr/src/sys/dev/pccard seemed to be newer and referance a differant location. I tried configurations 0x27 0xf 0x1f 0x17 and 0x3f. 0x3f and 0x1f brought up the xe0 device with errors. I dont have the card any more so i cant post more robust errors other than what I have left over in /var/log/messages.. Oct 5 15:16:03 ricoh /kernel: card1: assign xe0 iobase 0x2e8 irq 9 Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe: Probing for unit 0 Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe0: attach Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe0: Xircom CEM56, bonding version 0x55, 100Mbps capable, with modem Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe0: DingoID = 0x444b, RevisionID = 0x1, VendorID = 0 Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe0: Ethernet address 00:10:a4:fb:0d:0f Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe0: hard_reset Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe0: setmedia Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe0: disable_intr Oct 5 15:16:04 ricoh /kernel: xe0: init Oct 5 15:16:06 ricoh /kernel: xe0: setmedia Oct 5 15:16:06 ricoh /kernel: xe0: disable_intr Oct 5 15:16:06 ricoh /kernel: xe0: soft_reset Oct 5 15:16:06 ricoh /kernel: xe0: silicon revision = 5 Oct 5 15:16:06 ricoh /kernel: xe0: disable_intr Oct 5 15:16:06 ricoh /kernel: xe0: MII registers: 0:3400 1:7809 4:01e1 5:0000 6:0000 Thanks in advance Richard Puga puga@maui.com PS my laptop supports legacy and CardBuss (card I borrowed was legacy).... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 5:46:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC671500A for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA98667; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:46:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Message-Id: <199910061246.IAA98667@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19991006130508.O24928@florence.pavilion.net> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 08:46:17 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Josef Karthauser Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Sergey Shkonda Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Oct-99 Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:02:14PM +0300, Sergey Shkonda wrote: >> I'm using this patch for cdcontrol(1): >> >> cdid Print the xmcd's CD id. > > Is the method used by xmcd used by anything else or is it just _a_ > method. > What's the algorithm that the cddb boys use? If it's the same then I > believe that this is a useful patch. If it's different - it should > be > made same :) The method used by xmcd is a specific method specified by cddb, and the comments in the patch he posted look just like the source code that holds the authoritative algorithm for getting this id, so I believe it is the proper algorithm. I also think it is a useful patch, btw. > Joe --- John Baldwin -- http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 5:54:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A59414DD2 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrad@apple.com) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10671 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (mailgate1.apple.com- SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 05:54:12 -0700 Received: from [17.202.43.185] (wa.apple.com [17.202.43.185]) by scv2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA28877; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:54:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: conrad@mail.apple.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37FB3064.14803393@newsguy.com> References: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:54:00 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Conrad Minshall Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 4:20 AM -0700 10/6/99, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >It is no worse than uid/gid problems with NFS. Umm, what is this, FreeBSD-Humor? Thanks for the laugh, and remember, it's just a nasty old rumor that NFS stands for "No File Security" :-/ -- Conrad Minshall ... conrad@apple.com ... 408 974-2749 Apple Computer ... Mac OS X Core Operating Systems ... NFS/UDF/etc Alternative email address: rad@acm.org. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 6: 6:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from xenet.harz.de. (xenet.harz.de [193.159.181.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2EF14C2F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Meyser@xenet.de) Received: (from matthias@localhost) by xenet.harz.de. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19208 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:06:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from matthias) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:06:01 +0200 From: Matthias Meyser To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Voice modems Message-ID: <19991006150601.B19108@server.intern> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 02:26:26PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 02:26:26PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with controlling voice modems from > FreeBSD, doing stuff like DTMF-driven phone reservation etc? Have a look at mgetty in the portscollection. Here it works great with an old Zyxel 1696 CU matthias -- \\ // N N EEE TTT Matthias Meyser, Meyser@harz.de \\ // eee NN N E T Gesellschaft fuer Informations- und \X/ e e N N N EE T Kommunikationssysteme mbH // \\ e ee N NN E T 38678 Clausthal-Zellerfeld, Burgstaetter Strasse 6 // \\ eeee N N EEE T Telefon: +49-5323-94018 Fax: +49-5323-94011 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 6: 7:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com [207.113.159.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A042914C2F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (root@sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.191]) by gatekeeper.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA27259; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gdonl@tsc.tdk.com) Received: from salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com [192.168.241.194]) by sunrise.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26151; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gdonl@localhost) by salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA29545; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:03:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Lewis Message-Id: <199910061303.GAA29545@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:03:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: Darryl Okahata "Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...)" (Oct 4, 12:52am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Darryl Okahata , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Oct 4, 12:52am, Darryl Okahata wrote: } Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) } 1. Instant escalation. Example: supplicant A asks question in FreeBSD } group. Some FreeBSD contributor says, "RTFM", and does not give any } useful information whatsoever like which "FM" or even a vague area. } Supplicant A asks for more information, said FreeBSD contributor } insults supplicant A for being clueless newbie crud and flamefest } results. } } Lesson: if you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. Look at } it this way: you won't have wasted your time, your blood pressure } will be lower, and you won't look stupid for having stooped to } insults, which also doesn't reflect well upon the FreeBSD } contributors. This is reasonable advice, though what sometimes happens is that A is then frustrated by the deafening silence and either spams multiple lists or becomes irate because he thinks he is being actively shunned. This can also be a problem if the question isn't answered in the FM and the few FreeBSD experts who are competent to answer the question are too busy to answer right away or are otherwise distracted. I think it would lower the frustration level all around if we had some volunteer question answerers to take some of the load off the developers. It doesn't sound like fun to me, but neither does doing documentation, but somehow FreeBSD has managed to find volunteers who only work on the documentation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 6:12:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [194.242.128.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBBA15130 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@florence.pavilion.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA79816; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:05:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:05:29 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Sergey Shkonda Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) Message-ID: <19991006140529.S24928@florence.pavilion.net> References: <19991006130508.O24928@florence.pavilion.net> <199910061239.PAA05272@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199910061239.PAA05272@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, 24 The Old Steine, Brighton, BN1 1EL, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 03:39:41PM +0300, Sergey Shkonda wrote: > Yes, this algorithm used in cddb. Does the method have a specific name? What I'm getting at is the manual page entry: > > > cdid Print the xmcd's CD id. Should be something like: cdid Display the serial number of the cd using the method used by the cddb (URL) project. Joe -- Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today? Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 6:23:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay1.bcs.zp.ua (bcs-zyx-eth.marka.net.ua [195.248.171.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6337214D1C for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:20:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from serg@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua) Received: from bcs3.bcs.zp.ua (bcs3.bcs.zp.ua [212.8.35.73]) by relay1.bcs.zp.ua (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15198; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:39:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from serg@localhost) by bcs3.bcs.zp.ua (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05272; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:39:41 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from serg) From: Sergey Shkonda Message-Id: <199910061239.PAA05272@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) In-Reply-To: <19991006130508.O24928@florence.pavilion.net> from "Josef Karthauser" at "Oct 6, 1999 01:05:08 pm" To: "Josef Karthauser" Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:39:41 +0300 (EEST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:05:08 +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:02:14PM +0300, Sergey Shkonda wrote: > > I'm using this patch for cdcontrol(1): > > > > cdid Print the xmcd's CD id. > > Is the method used by xmcd used by anything else or is it just _a_ method. > What's the algorithm that the cddb boys use? If it's the same then I > believe that this is a useful patch. If it's different - it should be > made same :) Yes, this algorithm used in cddb. -- Sergey Shkonda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 6:30:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay1.bcs.zp.ua (bcs-zyx-eth.marka.net.ua [195.248.171.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB2815324 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from serg@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua) Received: from bcs3.bcs.zp.ua (bcs3.bcs.zp.ua [212.8.35.73]) by relay1.bcs.zp.ua (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24663; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:25:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from serg@localhost) by bcs3.bcs.zp.ua (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07200; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:25:09 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from serg) From: Sergey Shkonda Message-Id: <199910061325.QAA07200@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) In-Reply-To: <19991006140529.S24928@florence.pavilion.net> from "Josef Karthauser" at "Oct 6, 1999 02:05:29 pm" To: "Josef Karthauser" Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:25:09 +0300 (EEST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:05:29 +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 03:39:41PM +0300, Sergey Shkonda wrote: > > Yes, this algorithm used in cddb. > > Does the method have a specific name? What I'm getting at is the manual > page entry: I don't know any name for this method. From cddbd README file: :The CD Database Server (cddbd) is a program designed to allow remote access :of xmcd-style Compact Disc database entries via the Internet. Xmcd is an :X11/Motif-based CD player utility written by Ti Kan, which, as of version :2.0 supports remote access of CDDB protocol servers. This server also > > > > > cdid Print the xmcd's CD id. > > Should be something like: > > cdid Display the serial number of the cd using the method > used by the cddb (URL) project. I think it's better description. -- Sergey Shkonda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 6:33:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4EB154E0 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:33:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA38516; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:32:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: mwlucas@gltg.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stupid Newbie questions (was re: developer assessment) References: <199910051511.LAA16509@blackhelicopters.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Oct 1999 15:32:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: mwlucas@gltg.com's message of "Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:11:01 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG mwlucas@gltg.com writes: > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~dispatch/stupid-bsd-questions.txt Looks great! BTW, do the hot twins down the hall have a phone number? 8) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 6:36: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (assaris.sics.se [193.10.66.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2B315603 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:35:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from assar@sics.se) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.7.3) id PAA66583; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:35:21 +0200 (CEST) To: Charles Randall Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bind(2) sets errno to undocumented EAGAIN? References: <64003B21ECCAD11185C500805F31EC0303E7386A@houston.matchlogic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.68) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Assar Westerlund Date: 06 Oct 1999 15:35:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: Charles Randall's message of "Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:50:46 -0600" Message-ID: <5lemf8pq7b.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 6 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Charles Randall writes: > Under what conditions does bind(2) set errno to EAGAIN? Either all ports being used up or malloc fails in the kernel. /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 6:57:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5323F15130 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20135; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:56:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Message-Id: <199910061356.JAA20135@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: Re: Stupid Newbie questions (was re: developer assessment) In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Oct 6, 1999 3:32:57 pm" To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Cc: mwlucas@gltg.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > mwlucas@gltg.com writes: > > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~dispatch/stupid-bsd-questions.txt > > Looks great! Thanks. I've moved it to a have a slightly less offensive URL, and will be updating this as more arguments ensue. http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~dispatch/bsd-self-help.html Thanks to Wes Peters for the html; I was so annoyed at the flamewar that I didn't bother taking care of that before putting it up. ;) I'll be fixing it up further. Feel free to send newbies here, rather than flaming them. For those who haven't read it, this is a "what Mr. Newbie should do before mailing freebsd-*, how to do those things, and what level of roasting he can expect if he doesn't do them first, and why." > BTW, do the hot twins down the hall have a phone number? 8) They do. But if I gave it to an active committer you'd stop working on FreeBSD, at least until they were done with you. And we can't have that. ;) ==ml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 7:21:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3D61512F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p15-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.112]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA05515; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:20:42 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FB5A53.3E016EFA@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:18:59 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Conrad Minshall Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Conrad Minshall wrote: > > At 4:20 AM -0700 10/6/99, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > >It is no worse than uid/gid problems with NFS. > > Umm, what is this, FreeBSD-Humor? Thanks for the laugh, and remember, it's > just a nasty old rumor that NFS stands for "No File Security" :-/ This is no joke. When you make a fs "directly" available, there is only one way of providing security: encryption. Otherwise, I have to rely on ensuring the safety of the media, which can be a very difficult proposition. One would better assume that files available over NFS will be read by anyone who wants, and, likewise, that files available on removable media will be read by anyone who wants. That side of the problem does not belong to this discussion. The question here is how to minimize the cost/benefit ratio of letting users mount external file systems on their own. At the very least, the system must never trust that data. Ergo, no suid/sgid. If you rely on users not having any binaries they want on the system as a form of security, and even _think_ of providing user-mountable external media, I must laugh on your face. Thus, it's not so much of a problem of security of the system, beyond the system not trusting a single nibble of that data (and that *includes* not crashing if that fs is inconsistent), but a problem security and convenience for _that_ user. In this light, mixed uid/gid is just an inconvenience (though it can be a hell of an inconvenience). -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 7:26:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DFA815197 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p15-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.112]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA06879; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:26:14 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FB5B9D.34C6EFC8@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:24:29 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: mwlucas@gltg.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stupid Newbie questions (was re: developer assessment) References: <199910051511.LAA16509@blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > mwlucas@gltg.com writes: > > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~dispatch/stupid-bsd-questions.txt > > Looks great! > > BTW, do the hot twins down the hall have a phone number? 8) I think it was more on the lines of "Suppose a FreeBSD developer had a date with a couple of hot twins..." :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 7:36:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCBA1512F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05031; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:35:41 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:35:41 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Pat Dirks Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-Reply-To: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pat Dirks wrote: > Hi, > > I'm the File Systems Tech Lead at Apple in the Mac OS X Core OS group. > We've been struggling with the question of how best to handle permissions > on disks that are moved between systems for Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server: > the problem is that numeric IDs in inodes (or their moral equivalent) > written on the filesystem on one system don't necessarily map to the same > user, if they're valid at all, on another system (although they MIGHT). > With ZIP drives holding appreciable volumes of data and multi-gigabyte > FireWire drives becoming more common this is an issue that will > definitely pop up more and more as people carry data with them on > removable disk filesystems. > [snip] Have you given consideration to systems where the user/group database is kept for (possibly a large) number of computers in a centralised manner by say hesiod or nys (nis+). It would be nice if there was an easy interface with these so that distributing the local system id numbers need not be done by hand. > -Patrick. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 9:16: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ockle.nanoteq.co.za (ockle.nanoteq.co.za [196.37.91.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59BEF14CB6 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za) Received: from oskar.nanoteq.co.za (localhost.nanoteq.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by ockle.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA37572; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:12:15 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za) Message-ID: <37FB74DC.ACABD6A6@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 18:12:13 +0200 From: Johan Kruger Reply-To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Organization: Nanoteq X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: marcel@scc.nl, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Making a few links after 4.0-CURRENT installation ?? Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B3AFEFBF911EA2BB485C21C3" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B3AFEFBF911EA2BB485C21C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there Marcel. I have build a 4.0-CURRENT snapshot release. After installation some of the applications can't get some of the libraries, for example [ libc.so.3 ] This is not a problem, just need to do a [ ln -s libc.so.4 libc.so.3 ] and another one [ ln -s libncurses.so.2 libtermcap.so.2 ] under the directory [ /usr/lib ]. These are not the same files as for example /usr/lib/compat/aout/libtermcap.so.2.1. The reason for this is probably the bumping of the version numbers with the new commits. Are somebody going to add some links in compat3X ( so that the links is automatically created by installation ) or are all the packages going to be recompiled to use the new version numbers ( including X ) There are just a few links wich should be made, should'nt take to much time to add the creation of a few links to compat3x ? --------------B3AFEFBF911EA2BB485C21C3 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jkruger.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Johan Kruger Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jkruger.vcf" begin:vcard n:Kruger;Johan tel;cell:+27 83 3015923 tel;fax:+27 12 6651343 tel;home:+27 83 3015923 tel;work:+27 12 6651338 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Nanoteq;Development version:2.1 email;internet:jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za title:Mr adr;quoted-printable:;;P.O BOX 12872=0D=0AOnderstepoort=0D=0A0110=0D=0ASouth Africa;Pretoria;Gauteng;0110;South Africa x-mozilla-cpt:;0 fn:Johan Kruger end:vcard --------------B3AFEFBF911EA2BB485C21C3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 9:44:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wit401310.student.utwente.nl (wit401310.student.utwente.nl [130.89.236.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87DC156EC for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dalroi@wit401310.student.utwente.nl) Received: from wit401310.student.utwente.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wit401310.student.utwente.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50EDF1DD0; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:43:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:43:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Alban Hertroys Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems To: Pat Dirks Cc: FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-Id: <19991006164345.50EDF1DD0@wit401310.student.utwente.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 5 Oct, Pat Dirks wrote: Sorry if I'm talking nonsense or if somebody else already pointed this out, i usually just lurk around this list, but if I'm right I think it is of sufficient significance... > ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS > > When a new, never before seen disk is first mounted in the system it's > treated as "foreign". This can be changed (with "root" permissions) to > make the filesystem "local". The filesystem's ID is added to the list of > local filesystems and forever after when the disk is mounted it's treated > as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to > choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: Adding the filesystem to the systems list of local filesystems is not going to guarantee that the filesystem is local at all. If you move a disk from machine A to machine B, both machines will know the disk with that ID to be local. Moving the disk back to machine A will cause it to accept a filesystem as "local" that is actually "foreign". The "solution" would be to remove it's ID from the list when the filesystem is removed from the system, but AFAIK the only way to detect that is the "umount" that is required to do such. However, an umount is not enough reason to unmark a filesystem as "local"; it also happens at reboot, to name just one of the many occurances of umount. As may become obvious, I'm not an expert at this at all. I would rather brand the filesystem with the ID of the host. The starting situation is an "unmarked" filesystem. If a host detects the mounting of an "unmarked" filesystem, it will brand it with it's ID. If it detects a filesystem that has an ID that differs from the host's ID, it is a foreign filesystem. Seems quite simple to me... -- Alban Hertroys. http://wit401310.student.utwente.nl --- If I had a sig it would be fun. The quest for the Holy Sig has begun. I have not yet a clue, What will you see next issue? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 10: 4: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FDB15708 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:03:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05560; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:02:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:02:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: David G Andersen Cc: Dave Cornejo , nate@mt.sri.com, Scm486@aol.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape Bus Error In-Reply-To: <199910060148.TAA19349@faith.cs.utah.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, David G Andersen wrote: > It most likely is. I've found a pretty reliable way to crash Netscape > 4.6 and 4.7-freebsd (either us or export): Open two windows, and > visit slashdot in both of them. Actually try submitting a story in just one window - I've had it crash about 2/3 of the time lately. I finally gave in and used lynx to submit the story. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 10: 8:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D596156E7 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:08:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA10711; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199910061702.NAA10711@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 12:01:37 -0400 To: Luigi Rizzo From: Dennis Subject: Re: ARPs on a bridge Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910060856.JAA12460@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> References: <199910051825.OAA07146@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:56 AM 10/6/99 +0100, Luigi Rizzo wrote: >> >> Is there a way to force a Freebsd system to route to the same logican IP >> >> network rather than send a redirect? >> >> >> >> The situation occurs with segmented bridges where customers on the same >> >> logical IP network are on separate bridge groups. When trying to reach one >> >> another, they are getting redirects however they are not permitted to arp >> >> across groups. >... (long explaination moved to the end)... > >I think i don't understand the architecture of the system, so could you >explain a bit more about that -- i would like to learn more about >this. How many physical and logical interfaces does the FreeBSD >system see ? > >>From your description this is what i understand: > > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+----[ main router ]-- rest of net. > | > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+ > | > repeat 150 to 900 times | shared frame relay without > | multicast/broadcast support > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+ each DLCI is modeled as a PTP connection, so the system sees a physical interface for each channel. The bridge software just sees then as bridged interfaces. the "right" way to do it is to allocate a subnet to each bridge group, as different bridge groups cant talk at the mac layer by design. Im just trying to come up with an easy solution to free up addtional IP space so customers with only 2 address dont have to get a whole subnet. dennis > >and the understanding is that the 'DSL bridge' is perhaps implemented >with a FreeBSD-based box with an ethernet on the customer side and a >suitable card on the other side. > >Now if the DSL bridge is "almost" a bridge (in the sense that it filters >broadcast traffic) then your architecture "almost" works (except >when operation depends on traffic that you filter) and you need a >separate mechanism to implement the functionality killed by the >filtering. E.g. recognize that some broadcasts (e.g. ARP) are special >and need to be forwarded anyways... > > cheers > luigi > > >> On a DSL bridge you have 150 to 900 customers bridged on a relatively low >> bandwidth line (frame relay in this case). Forwarding broadcast traffic is >> very undesireable as you have to replicate the packet 900 times, and since >> you know the IP assignement for the DLCI you dont need to forward it to >> everyone. Each customer is on a different bridge group so traffic cannot be >> bridged between them, so you have to route, but you dont want to have to >> allocate a subnet to each bridge group either. The problem is that, from >> the FreeBSD boxes view, you are routing to the same logical net (assuming >> that all of the bridge groups are in the same IP space. >> >> We're not talking about bridging a couple of ethernets here. >> >> Dennis >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message >> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 10:13:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [194.242.128.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6B615708 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@florence.pavilion.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA34193; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:10:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:10:05 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Sergey Shkonda Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) Message-ID: <19991006181004.T24928@florence.pavilion.net> References: <19991006140529.S24928@florence.pavilion.net> <199910061325.QAA07200@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199910061325.QAA07200@bcs3.bcs.zp.ua> X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, 24 The Old Steine, Brighton, BN1 1EL, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 04:25:09PM +0300, Sergey Shkonda wrote: > > > cdid Display the serial number of the cd using the method > > used by the cddb (URL) project. > > I think it's better description. If it wasn't clear: cdid Display the serial number of the cd using the method used by the cddb (http://www.cddb.org) project. Joe -- Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today? Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 10:15:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D0015726 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id KAA80172; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:14:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199910061714.KAA80172@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: bind(2) sets errno to undocumented EAGAIN? In-Reply-To: <64003B21ECCAD11185C500805F31EC0303E7386A@houston.matchlogic.com> from Charles Randall at "Oct 5, 1999 11:50:46 pm" To: crandall@matchlogic.com (Charles Randall) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Charles Randall writes: > Under what conditions does bind(2) set errno to EAGAIN? The 3.2R bind(2) > manual page does not list that as a valid value for errno when bind returns > -1. Please file a PR so this gets fixed. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 10:18:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B847F15732 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id TAA13766; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:19:09 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199910061819.TAA13766@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: ARPs on a bridge To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:19:09 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910061702.NAA10711@etinc.com> from "Dennis" at Oct 6, 99 12:01:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1450 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I still don't fully understand where, in the picture below, is the "system" which you want to modify and what is instead standard stuff that you cannot touch... > >>From your description this is what i understand: > > > > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+----[ main router ]-- rest of net. > > | > > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+ > > | > > repeat 150 to 900 times | shared frame relay without > > | multicast/broadcast support > > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+ > > each DLCI is modeled as a PTP connection, so the system sees a physical > interface for each channel. The bridge software just sees then as bridged > interfaces. > > the "right" way to do it is to allocate a subnet to each bridge group, as > different bridge groups cant talk at the mac layer by design. Im just > trying to come up with an easy solution to free up addtional IP space so > customers with only 2 address dont have to get a whole subnet. cheers luigi -----------------------------------+------------------------------------- Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . Dip. di Ing. dell'Informazione http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ . Universita` di Pisa TEL/FAX: +39-050-568.533/522 . via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ngc99/ ==== First International Workshop on Networked Group Communication ==== -----------------------------------+------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 10:34:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0AC9150FB for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@scc.nl) Received: from [212.238.132.94] (helo=scones.sup.scc.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 11Yuxh-0003CI-00; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:34:45 +0000 Received: from scc.nl (scones.sup.scc.nl [192.168.2.4]) by scones.sup.scc.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04668; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:34:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marcel@scc.nl) Message-ID: <37FB882F.CD83E608@scc.nl> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 19:34:39 +0200 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: SCC vof X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Making a few links after 4.0-CURRENT installation ?? References: <37FB74DC.ACABD6A6@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Johan Kruger wrote: > After installation some of the applications can't get some of the > libraries, for example [ libc.so.3 ] > This is not a problem, just need to do a [ ln -s libc.so.4 libc.so.3 ] > and another one [ ln -s libncurses.so.2 libtermcap.so.2 ] under the > directory [ /usr/lib ]. You can't just make a link for libc. They are different. > The reason for this is probably the bumping of the version numbers with > the new commits. Yep. > Are somebody going to add some links in compat3X ( so that the links is > automatically created by installation ) or are all the packages going to > be recompiled to use the new version numbers ( including X ) The libraries should probably be added to compat3x, yes. -- Marcel Moolenaar mailto:marcel@scc.nl SCC Internetworking & Databases http://www.scc.nl/ The FreeBSD project mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 11:22:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA3315765 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:22:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA66315; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:18:43 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <199910061818.UAA66315@gratis.grondar.za> To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@scc.nl Subject: Re: Release build Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:18:43 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Does anybody know why ( i know that the directory /R/stage/trees/krb/ > does not exist , but the directory /R/stage/trees/krb4/ do exist ) ?? For some reason, your src/release/* area is not getting updated. M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 11:36:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from tardis.patho.gen.nz (tardis.patho.gen.nz [203.97.2.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D3A15751 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:36:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jabley@tardis.patho.gen.nz) Received: (from jabley@localhost) by tardis.patho.gen.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA27533; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:34:35 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:34:35 +1300 From: Joe Abley To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Message-ID: <19991007073435.A20998@patho.gen.nz> References: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> <37FB5A53.3E016EFA@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <37FB5A53.3E016EFA@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:18:59PM +0900 X-Files: the Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:18:59PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > One would better assume that files available over NFS will be read > by anyone who wants, and, likewise, that files available on > removable media will be read by anyone who wants. That side of the > problem does not belong to this discussion. > > [...] > > The question here is how to minimize the cost/benefit ratio of > letting users mount external file systems on their own. At the very > least, the system must never trust that data. Ergo, no suid/sgid. Show me a disk that's _not_ removable. By your logic we would have _no_ sguid/sgid binaries _ever._ Physical access to a machine is always a security risk. Why would you treat easily-removable media any differently to slightly-harder-to-remove media? You still need to break into the vault to remove them. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 12: 2:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.calderasystems.com (phoenix.calderasystems.com [207.179.18.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C725C150FB for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:01:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drdavis@calderasystems.com) Received: from calderasystems.com (drdavis@buddha.calderasystems.com [207.179.18.42]) by phoenix.calderasystems.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05721; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:01:32 -0600 Message-ID: <37FB9D31.A18617F4@calderasystems.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 13:04:17 -0600 From: "Darren R. Davis" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61C-CCK-MCD Caldera Systems OpenLinux [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi Cc: Pat Dirks , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C4BCBF28B5B8D71A215DBEBD" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C4BCBF28B5B8D71A215DBEBD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Narvi wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pat Dirks wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I'm the File Systems Tech Lead at Apple in the Mac OS X Core OS group. > > We've been struggling with the question of how best to handle permissions > > on disks that are moved between systems for Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server: > > the problem is that numeric IDs in inodes (or their moral equivalent) > > written on the filesystem on one system don't necessarily map to the same > > user, if they're valid at all, on another system (although they MIGHT). > > With ZIP drives holding appreciable volumes of data and multi-gigabyte > > FireWire drives becoming more common this is an issue that will > > definitely pop up more and more as people carry data with them on > > removable disk filesystems. > > > > [snip] > > Have you given consideration to systems where the user/group database is > kept for (possibly a large) number of computers in a centralised manner by > say hesiod or nys (nis+). It would be nice if there was an easy interface > with these so that distributing the local system id numbers need not be > done by hand. > > > -Patrick. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message If I was going to look into that kind of approach I would seriously look into some sort of Directory Server tie in through LDAP. Darren --------------C4BCBF28B5B8D71A215DBEBD Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="drdavis.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Darren R. Davis Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="drdavis.vcf" begin:vcard n:Davis;Darren tel;fax:801.765.1313 tel;work:801.765.4999 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.calderasystems.com org:Caldera Systems, Inc.;Engineering adr:;;240 West Center Street;Orem;UT;84057;USA version:2.1 email;internet:drdavis@calderasystems.com title:Director of Research x-mozilla-cpt:;-5088 fn:Darren Davis end:vcard --------------C4BCBF28B5B8D71A215DBEBD-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 12:17:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA52A15750 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA09412; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:15:43 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:15:43 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: "Darren R. Davis" Cc: Pat Dirks , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-Reply-To: <37FB9D31.A18617F4@calderasystems.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Darren R. Davis wrote: > Narvi wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > Have you given consideration to systems where the user/group database is > > kept for (possibly a large) number of computers in a centralised manner by > > say hesiod or nys (nis+). It would be nice if there was an easy interface > > with these so that distributing the local system id numbers need not be > > done by hand. > > > > If I was going to look into that kind of approach I would seriously look into > some > sort of Directory Server tie in through LDAP. > > Darren > Only people at *MANY* sites are already using NIS and Hesiod (or some entirely different way ) and are very unlikely to migrate to LDAP or some other directory or not directory scheme for it, or probably even adapt it. No matter *what* scheme they are already using, they will expect the interface to the system ids to be able to use it. Mandating scheme XYZ is just like saying "Here, this is how we want you to distribute passwords. Forget about Kerberos and NIS+ or whatever other scheme you may have in place." Which is why I only talked about the interface, not what might be behind it or connected to it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 12:20: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A83315756 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA83741; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:19:36 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Michael Lucas Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stupid Newbie questions (was re: developer assessment) In-Reply-To: <199910061356.JAA20135@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Today Michael Lucas wrote: > > BTW, do the hot twins down the hall have a phone number? 8) > > They do. But if I gave it to an active committer you'd stop working > on FreeBSD, at least until they were done with you. And we can't have > that. ;) Think carrot/stick, Michael. "DES, I'd really like to see `insert your desired feature here' in FreeBSD." Bet you could get it. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 12:22:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.calderasystems.com (phoenix.calderasystems.com [207.179.18.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349EA1576D for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:21:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drdavis@calderasystems.com) Received: from calderasystems.com (drdavis@buddha.calderasystems.com [207.179.18.42]) by phoenix.calderasystems.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06378; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:20:31 -0600 Message-ID: <37FBA1A4.CA432540@calderasystems.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 13:23:16 -0600 From: "Darren R. Davis" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61C-CCK-MCD Caldera Systems OpenLinux [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alban Hertroys Cc: Pat Dirks , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: <19991006164345.50EDF1DD0@wit401310.student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------68F74C16051F3BF9E2CFC271" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------68F74C16051F3BF9E2CFC271 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alban Hertroys wrote: > On 5 Oct, Pat Dirks wrote: > > Sorry if I'm talking nonsense or if somebody else already pointed this > out, i usually just lurk around this list, but if I'm right I think it > is of sufficient significance... > > > ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS > > > > When a new, never before seen disk is first mounted in the system it's > > treated as "foreign". This can be changed (with "root" permissions) to > > make the filesystem "local". The filesystem's ID is added to the list of > > local filesystems and forever after when the disk is mounted it's treated > > as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to > > choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: > > Adding the filesystem to the systems list of local filesystems is not > going to guarantee that the filesystem is local at all. If you move a > disk from machine A to machine B, both machines will know the disk with > that ID to be local. Moving the disk back to machine A will cause it to > accept a filesystem as "local" that is actually "foreign". > > The "solution" would be to remove it's ID from the list when the > filesystem is removed from the system, but AFAIK the only way to detect > that is the "umount" that is required to do such. However, an umount > is not enough reason to unmark a filesystem as "local"; it also > happens at reboot, to name just one of the many occurances of umount. > As may become obvious, I'm not an expert at this at all. > > I would rather brand the filesystem with the ID of the host. The > starting situation is an "unmarked" filesystem. If a host detects the > mounting of an "unmarked" filesystem, it will brand it with it's ID. If > it detects a filesystem that has an ID that differs from the host's ID, > it is a foreign filesystem. Seems quite simple to me... > > -- > Alban Hertroys. > http://wit401310.student.utwente.nl > --- > If I had a sig it would be fun. > The quest for the Holy Sig has begun. > I have not yet a clue, > What will you see next issue? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message Having some experience with the way Iomega handled this, they did this very thing. They generated an ID for the disk. They also would have it be changed every time it was mounted. That way if the ID didn't change from what was expected it was assumed to have not changed. If it ever moved to another system, it was rebranded and was now viewed as changed. Darren --------------68F74C16051F3BF9E2CFC271 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="drdavis.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Darren R. Davis Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="drdavis.vcf" begin:vcard n:Davis;Darren tel;fax:801.765.1313 tel;work:801.765.4999 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.calderasystems.com org:Caldera Systems, Inc.;Engineering adr:;;240 West Center Street;Orem;UT;84057;USA version:2.1 email;internet:drdavis@calderasystems.com title:Director of Research x-mozilla-cpt:;-5088 fn:Darren Davis end:vcard --------------68F74C16051F3BF9E2CFC271-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 12:26: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394A615330 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:25:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA87484; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:25:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910061925.MAA87484@apollo.backplane.com> To: Joe Abley Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> <37FB5A53.3E016EFA@newsguy.com> <19991007073435.A20998@patho.gen.nz> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Show me a disk that's _not_ removable. By your logic we would have _no_ :sguid/sgid binaries _ever._ : :Physical access to a machine is always a security risk. Why would you :treat easily-removable media any differently to slightly-harder-to-remove :media? You still need to break into the vault to remove them. : :Joe Well, I don't think this is a very fair argument. There are plenty of situations where you might want to differentiate, even with physical access. For example, take PC's in a library. Lets say that the PC's get all their critical stuff via read-only NFS mounts, but the library wants to allow people to import and export files via the floppy drive. In this example, there is a very definite distinction between a filesystem on the floppy drive and 'everything else'. Even when you throw a hard drive in, just because someone has physical access to the outside of the machine does not necessarily mean that he has physical access to the inside of the machine. Take, for example, a supervised machine or machine which is 'locked down' and has a bios password installed. While it is certainly true that a person could eventually get physical access into the machine, it is a significantly more difficult task and therefore a significant distinction still exists between the data stored on the hard drive and stored in, say, a floppy. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 13: 8:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE9915766 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p20-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.149]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id FAA23671; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 05:08:27 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FBAB2B.9DA092DD@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 05:03:55 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Abley Cc: Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> <37FB5A53.3E016EFA@newsguy.com> <19991007073435.A20998@patho.gen.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe Abley wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:18:59PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > One would better assume that files available over NFS will be read > > by anyone who wants, and, likewise, that files available on > > removable media will be read by anyone who wants. That side of the > > problem does not belong to this discussion. > > > > [...] > > > > The question here is how to minimize the cost/benefit ratio of > > letting users mount external file systems on their own. At the very > > least, the system must never trust that data. Ergo, no suid/sgid. > > Show me a disk that's _not_ removable. By your logic we would have _no_ > sguid/sgid binaries _ever._ Please, don't give me this crap. "Removable media" is a very well-defined terminology. > Physical access to a machine is always a security risk. Why would you > treat easily-removable media any differently to slightly-harder-to-remove > media? You still need to break into the vault to remove them. Why? Because in latter case you do not expect users to remove (or insert, which is that case above) media in the system, except as a serious breach in physical security, and in the former case you *EXPECT* and *PROVIDE THE MEANS FOR* the user change the media. That makes all the difference. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 14: 8:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507FB15772 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:08:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19681; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:05:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:05:08 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Don Lewis Cc: Darryl Okahata , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Message-ID: <19991006160508.P20768@futuresouth.com> References: <199910061303.GAA29545@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910061303.GAA29545@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 06:03:27AM -0700, a little birdie told me that Don Lewis remarked > > I think it would lower the frustration level all around if we had some > volunteer question answerers to take some of the load off the developers. Indeed. Wait; I just had a brainstorm! We could even make a mailing list for it, and call it something like.... 'freebsd-questions' to make it easy for people to find! -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 15:46:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freja.webgiro.com (freja.webgiro.com [212.209.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009E615782 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D91381925; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:46:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D8B49D0; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:46:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:46:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Matthew Dillon Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters In-Reply-To: <199910060449.VAA81656@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > Mmmm. I ran into problems in -current trying to use a block size of > 64K. It should be relatively easy for me to track this down and fix > it, but I don't know if there are other problems lying in wait. IOW it may appear to run while eating your FS away.... No,thanks :-/ > :* what maximum value can I use for -i (bytes per inode) parmeter? I > :aalready tried 16mln ... > > I wouldn't go that high. Try 262144. Here's an example: Why? I only need a couple o hundred inodes on this fs.. > > newfs -i 262144 -b 65536 -f 8192 /dev/rvn1c > > test3:/root# newfs -i 262144 -f 8192 -b 65536 /dev/rvn1c > /dev/rvn1c: 83886080 sectors in 2560 cylinders of 1 tracks, 32768 sectors > 40960.0MB in 160 cyl groups (16 c/g, 256.00MB/g, 1024 i/g) Well, yes, but you used non-standar blocksize which you yourself don't recommend. With standard 8192/1024 this command creates millions of inodes which I don't need - what's worse, they cause fsck to run for hours instead of seconds. > > :* and finally, how th above choices affect the FS performance in my case? > : > :Thanks in advance for any insights! > : > :Andrzej Bialecki > > The higher the bytes per inode the fewer the inodes and the faster > fsck will run if you have to recover the filesystem. Too high a > bytes-per-inode will screw up the filesystem's ability to manage > the cylinder groups, though. Why? I thought this parameter describes (indirectly) only the total number of inodes in the FS, which is otherwise set proportionally to FS size, assuming it will be filled with very small files (2048B IIRC). I suspect it might have something to do with the placement policy (which CG to use to put additional blocks belonging to the file), but I don't see any immediate connection... > > The higher the block size the fewer indirect blocks are required to > access a linear file, but as the block size increases the system's > caching effectiveness will decrease. > > I would not use a block size greater then 64K, and I wouldn't specify > a bytes-per-inode greater then 262144. > > There may be problems specifying larger block sizes, though nothing > that we can't fix. What kind of problems? Will it simply not work, or will it corrupt the FS? Thanks a lot for these comments! Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 16:22:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (dynamic-54.max1-du-ws.dialnetwork.pavilion.co.uk [212.74.8.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF8B1535D for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00344; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:14:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@lan.awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03364; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:14:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910062314.AAA03364@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Pat Dirks Cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:19:22 PDT." <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 00:14:52 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [.....] > Instead we decided to leave all name <-> ID mapping systems unchanged and > rely on a distinction between "local" filesystems whose permissions > information should be used and a "foreign" filesystem mode where owner > and group IDs are ignored. [.....] I think the owner and group of the person that mounted the filesystem should be assigned to all files on that filesystem in FOREIGN mode. -u and -g switches should be permitted to modify these, the -u being restricted to root and the -g restricted to root or one of the groups to which you are a member. This assumes the BSD style I-must-have-permission-to-read-and-write- the-raw-partitiion style filesystem mounting by users. It would have horrendous implications with the linux-style fstab-says-anyone-can- mount-this idea. But then, you already mention this later on :-] The filesystem code would also mask all suid bits and ignore all char/device files on FOREIGN media (as you've already said too). [.....] > media) so we settled on identifying filesystems instead. I don't think it's a good idea to be able to identify the filesystem as being your own. It's too easy to introduce security problems that way. I'd suggest a default of FOREIGN and a root-only mount option for LOCAL - ie, root decides, nothing's automated. [.....] > As long as the filesystem is "foreign" no owner or group changes > (chown(2), chgrp(2)) are allowed (the id spaces are very possibly > mutually meaningless; local name -> id mappings could make no sense to > the original owner's system). chmod(2) should still work, though. And what uid/gid do new files get.... I can't say I like the idea of a magic ``nobody'' uid/gid. [.....] -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 16:51:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64CF14CB2 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwd@mail.apple.com) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14193 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv3.apple.com (scv3.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (mailgate1.apple.com- SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 16:51:19 -0700 Received: from [17.202.40.76] (thunder.apple.com [17.202.40.76]) by scv3.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA21704; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910062351.QAA21704@scv3.apple.com> Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:51:17 -0700 x-sender: pwd@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Pat Dirks To: "Brian Somers" Cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >[.....] >> Instead we decided to leave all name <-> ID mapping systems unchanged and >> rely on a distinction between "local" filesystems whose permissions >> information should be used and a "foreign" filesystem mode where owner >> and group IDs are ignored. >[.....] > >I think the owner and group of the person that mounted the filesystem >should be assigned to all files on that filesystem in FOREIGN mode. >-u and -g switches should be permitted to modify these, the -u being >restricted to root and the -g restricted to root or one of the groups >to which you are a member. > >This assumes the BSD style I-must-have-permission-to-read-and-write- >the-raw-partitiion style filesystem mounting by users. It would have >horrendous implications with the linux-style fstab-says-anyone-can- >mount-this idea. But then, you already mention this later on :-] > >The filesystem code would also mask all suid bits and ignore all >char/device files on FOREIGN media (as you've already said too). What do you see as the advantage of explicitly assigning ownership to the mounting user/group? The effect should be the same in either case? I suppose it allows an intereting middle-level of access to the group in question? In the case of Mac OS X we've got a daemon in the system looking for new disks being inserted/attached and doing the mount. We still want the console user to have "ownership" of the filesystem in "foreign" mode. >[.....] >> media) so we settled on identifying filesystems instead. > >I don't think it's a good idea to be able to identify the filesystem >as being your own. It's too easy to introduce security problems that >way. I'd suggest a default of FOREIGN and a root-only mount option >for LOCAL - ie, root decides, nothing's automated. > >[.....] >> As long as the filesystem is "foreign" no owner or group changes >> (chown(2), chgrp(2)) are allowed (the id spaces are very possibly >> mutually meaningless; local name -> id mappings could make no sense to >> the original owner's system). chmod(2) should still work, though. > >And what uid/gid do new files get.... I can't say I like the idea of >a magic ``nobody'' uid/gid. Sorry, I neglected to specify that in my original post. Given the scheme outline in my original post, the plan is precisely to make new files or directories be owned by "nobody". There's no sensible ID that you can write onto the filesystem and it makes it easier for the original owner to track down new files or directories created on the other system. Thanks, -Patrick. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17: 6:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1469A1579F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wsanchez@scv2.apple.com) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10338 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (mailgate1.apple.com- SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:04:24 -0700 Received: from joliet-jake (joliet-jake.apple.com [17.202.40.140]) by scv2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA29320; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910070004.RAA29320@scv2.apple.com> To: Narvi Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Cc: Pat Dirks , FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:04:19 -0700 From: Wilfredo Sanchez Reply-To: wsanchez@apple.com X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | Have you given consideration to systems where the user/group database is | kept for (possibly a large) number of computers in a centralised manner by | say hesiod or nys (nis+). It would be nice if there was an easy interface | with these so that distributing the local system id numbers need not be | done by hand. It's complicated. We do have a distributed database (NetInfo) and we considered perhaps using the name of the NetInfo domain to determine local vs. foreign. The problem is that distributed databases are sometimes hierarchical, and can be mixed. For example: Host H1 is in NetInfo domain N1 and has local users U1 and U2 (eg. they are in the local host's domain or in /etc/passwd on the local host). Host H2 is also in N1, but doesn't have local user U1 but it has a local user U2, though it's a different person's UID. NetInfo domains can be tiered, and so you might shared some, but not all, of the NetInfo users. Also, our resolver can use multiple sources, such as NetInfo and Hesiod and NIS. This makes keeping track of what IDs might be shared between any two machines a hard problem. -Fred -- Wilfredo Sanchez, wsanchez@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc., Core Operating Systems / BSD Technical Lead, Darwin Project 1 Infinite Loop, 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17:11:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1794157A2 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wsanchez@scv2.apple.com) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10791 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (mailgate1.apple.com- SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:11:30 -0700 Received: from joliet-jake (joliet-jake.apple.com [17.202.40.140]) by scv2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA00314; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910070011.RAA00314@scv2.apple.com> To: Alban Hertroys Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Cc: Pat Dirks , FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:11:24 -0700 From: Wilfredo Sanchez Reply-To: wsanchez@apple.com X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | I would rather brand the filesystem with the ID of the host. The | starting situation is an "unmarked" filesystem. If a host detects the | mounting of an "unmarked" filesystem, it will brand it with it's ID. If | it detects a filesystem that has an ID that differs from the host's ID, | it is a foreign filesystem. Seems quite simple to me... But then you have to put that information on the disk, and you're back to trusting the disk. "Um, yeah, I'm local. Trust me." -Fred -- Wilfredo Sanchez, wsanchez@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc., Core Operating Systems / BSD Technical Lead, Darwin Project 1 Infinite Loop, 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17:15:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CB214C39 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwd@mail.apple.com) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15915 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (mailgate1.apple.com- SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:12:14 -0700 Received: from [17.202.40.76] (thunder.apple.com [17.202.40.76]) by scv2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA00348; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910070011.RAA00348@scv2.apple.com> Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:11:41 -0700 x-sender: pwd@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Pat Dirks To: "Alfred Perlstein" Cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pat Dirks wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm the File Systems Tech Lead at Apple in the Mac OS X Core OS group. >> We've been struggling with the question of how best to handle permissions >> on disks that are moved between systems for Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server: >> the problem is that numeric IDs in inodes (or their moral equivalent) >> written on the filesystem on one system don't necessarily map to the same >> user, if they're valid at all, on another system (although they MIGHT). >> With ZIP drives holding appreciable volumes of data and multi-gigabyte >> FireWire drives becoming more common this is an issue that will >> definitely pop up more and more as people carry data with them on >> removable disk filesystems. > >I think your best bet to implement something like this is looking >at what mount_msdosfs in FreeBSD does, and possibly using the umapfs >(mount_umap) system for mapping ID's as it sounds pretty close to >what you guys are looking for. > >Another interesting idea would be to a utility to 'brand' removable >media, so that a umapfs mapfile can be written to the disk in more >friendly manner. > >However, it seems that a lot of this is going towards automation at >guessing what a user wants, rather than allowing him to customize >what he wants. The problem trying to use the umapfs to solve the problem are that (a) there may be no mapping for some or all of the IDs involved (b) it presumes maintaining a mapping file ready-to-go when the disk is unmounted/removed (c) the real correspondence between users on the two systems is really external knowledge. Even if I could map "Fred" on the source system to the id of a "Fred" on the receiving system there's no guarantee that's correct. If there's some way to know that some or all of the IDs on the "foreign" filesystem are meaningful, possibly after mapping, the system should "adopt" the drive as "local", preserving the IDs, and then use umapfs the way it would be on any filesystem. There's no way to do this correctly without external knowledge, though. >> As long as the filesystem is "foreign" no owner or group changes >> (chown(2), chgrp(2)) are allowed (the id spaces are very possibly >> mutually meaningless; local name -> id mappings could make no sense to >> the original owner's system). chmod(2) should still work, though. > >This is a bit kludgy and goes against POLA, if the ability exists to >change it then it should be allowed unless explicitly disabled, it >would be terribly annoying imo to startup some process or give multiuser >access to a disk then have to shut everything down in order to properly >chown something. There's no ID that could sensibly be written since the IDs on the filesystem are from a different ID mapping space so chown() and chgrp() MUST fail. It's not a matter of defaulting of some option. As for the POLA, imagine how surprised the original creator of the filesystem would be to find random user/group IDs assigned to files and directories on the disk. I would think that seeing "unknown"/"unknown" for the user and group on every file and directory on the "foreign" filesystem should reduce the astonishment fact considerably. >> ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS >> >> When a new, never before seen disk is first mounted in the system it's >> treated as "foreign". This can be changed (with "root" permissions) to >> make the filesystem "local". The filesystem's ID is added to the list of >> local filesystems and forever after when the disk is mounted it's treated >> as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to >> choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: >> >> * Retain them as-is (useful for cases where you have external >> reasons to believe >> the numeric user and group IDs on the filesystem are sensible and >> meaningful) >> >> OR >> >> * Overwrite all owner/group information with the reserved ID >> "unknown". This >> leaves the effective permissions unchanged but enables them to be >> changed >> individually. You can chown(2) and chgrp(2) files and directories. >> >> Note that one interesting option might be to provide a one-time-only >> "adoption" which has no permanent effect; when the disk is encountered >> later it is once again "foreign". This might make sense for security >> reasons (if you don't want this disk to become a possible future carrier >> for SetUID binaries) > >This is very interesting, as a timesaver to the second option >(overwriting) you could use the timestamp on the file's permissions >to determine if the UID/GIDs are valid (if they are stale old uids, >or new uid's after a chown/chgrp) That'd be an intriguing optimization. It would require maintaining a timestamp for every file and directory on the disk to note the time of the last change, though, in addition to the filesystem's timestamp, wouldn't it? I suppose you could check that the owner/group IDs are corrected if the "last changed date" is ever updated and ignore the owner/group IDs if the last changed date is before the filesystem's timestamp and thereby incrementally update individual filesystems/directories on the filesystem without a lengthy delay at "adoption" time. Thanks for the feedback! -Patrick. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17:21: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14E514C39 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wsanchez@scv1.apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16455 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv1.apple.com (scv1.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:19:09 -0700 Received: from joliet-jake (joliet-jake.apple.com [17.202.40.140]) by scv1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09580; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910070019.RAA09580@scv1.apple.com> To: Matthew Dillon Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Cc: Joe Abley , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:19:04 -0700 From: Wilfredo Sanchez Reply-To: wsanchez@apple.com X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | While it is certainly true that a person could eventually get physical | access into the machine, it is a significantly more difficult task and | therefore a significant distinction still exists between the data stored | on the hard drive and stored in, say, a floppy. This is becoming less and less true. One of the driving reasons why we're trying to work out this issue is FireWire. At some point, you might expect a computer that uses FireWire for both the internal and external drives, and the kernel isn't necessarily going to be able to know what's "locked inside" the computer vs what's outside the computer; it's (possibly) all one big hot-swappable bus. Your root device could certainly live outside the box. Distinguishing "easily removeable" isn't the way to go here. -Fred -- Wilfredo Sanchez, wsanchez@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc., Core Operating Systems / BSD Technical Lead, Darwin Project 1 Infinite Loop, 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17:23:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n66.san.rr.com (dt011n66.san.rr.com [204.210.13.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE7414CA8 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:23:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt011n66.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA57809; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:23:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:23:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt011n66.san.rr.com To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Luoqi Chen Subject: New crash, NFS/multiple frees related. (Was: zalloci/pv_entry problem) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Same machine crashed, this time at a different place. I'm starting to wonder if there may be a hardware issue with this machine, but the errors I'm seeing in the logs are similar enough to the show-stopping errors I had when all the machines were running the same newer -current, so maybe it's just bad luck. In any case, here is the latest data. Any input would be appreciated. I can resend the pertinent details to anyone who needs them. Thanks, Doug Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode mp_lock = 00000005; cpuid = 0; lapic.id = 01000000 fault virtual address = 0x4800c040 fault code = supervisor read, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xc01e2c40 stack pointer = 0x10:0xdc838a40 frame pointer = 0x10:0xdc838a44 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 97652 (miva) interrupt mask = net tty bio cam <- SMP: XXX kernel: type 12 trap, code=0 panic: free: multiple frees mp_lock = 00000001; cpuid = 0; lapic.id = 01000000 Debugger("panic") Stopped at Debugger+0x37: movl $0,in_Debugger db> trace Debugger(c0216d32) at Debugger+0x37 panic(c02162ff,c20e2440,dcef4bc0,dc838c94,4800c040) at panic+0xa8 free(c20e2440,c023b580,dd1c6e40,dc838c70,c0154ee7) at free+0xd3 cache_zap(c20e2440) at cache_zap+0xb3 cache_purge(dd1c6e40,20,dd1e2c60,c1c7a040,dc838c94) at cache_purge+0x37 getnewvnode(2,c1d3ce00,c1c58d00,dc838cc8,20) at getnewvnode+0x27e nfs_nget(c1d3ce00,c111d860,20,dc838d64,dc838e1c) at nfs_nget+0x107 nfs_create(dc838e1c,0,dc838f80,fffffffb,da07aec0) at nfs_create+0x1673 vn_open(dc838eec,20a,180,da07aec0,c0239d4c) at vn_open+0xfa open(da07aec0,dc838f80,1,80d5d80,bfbfd5f0) at open+0xbb syscall(2f,2f,2f,bfbfd5f0,80d5d80) at syscall+0x19e Xint0x80_syscall() at Xint0x80_syscall+0x31 I actually had better luck with x/s than I did with x/l, so here goes: db> x/s 0xc02162ff __set_sysuninit_set_sym_M_FREE_uninit_sys_uninit+0x7b: free: multiple frees 0xc20e2440: @$\016\302\264Y\302\301@\026\372\301H\335"\302 db> x/s 0xc023b580 M_CACHE: \340\265#\300\200'* db> x/s 0xdd1c6e40 0xdd1c6e40: db> x/l 0xdd1c6e40 0xdc838c70: \234\214\203\334\202\203\025\300@n\034\335 db> x/s 0xc0154ee7 cache_purge+0x37: \203\304\004\203\273\210 0xc20e2440: @$\016\302\264Y\302\301@\026\372\301H\335"\302 db> x/s 0xdcef4bc0 0xdcef4bc0: db> x/l 0xdcef4bc0 db> x/s 0xdc838c94 0xdc838c94: db> x/l 0xdc838c94 0xdd1e2c60: \300\346\343\335`3\001\335 0xc1c7a040: \3617\335\300\346\203\335@\233g\335`\014\237\335@+\361\334@k%\335@\242B\335\300V\303\334@[\322\334\2405\032\335\300\266\305\334 db> x/s 0xc1d3ce00 0xc1d3ce00: db> x/l 0xc1d3ce00 db> x/s 0xc1c58d00 0xc1c58d00: \300f\025\300\250f\025\300 \320\032\300\024\323\031\300h\327\031\300\370\327\031\300\300\272\027\300\250f\025\300xh\025\300\334\327\032\300\250\004\032\300\334\273\027\300\334\333\031\300\250f\025\300 \245\027\300\250f\025\300\364\274\027\300\260\327\032\300@\317\032\300\250f\025\300\3745\032\300\014g\032\300\204\362\031\300P\210\032\300\3105\032\300\024\320\032\300T\325\031\300\250f\025\300 h\025\300X\247\032\300\320\004\032\300\004Q\032\300\250X\032\300x\240\032\300\224\317\032\300\220q\032\300\250f\025\300\360\224\027\300H\227\027\300\250f\025\300 \330\032\300\240f\025\300\250f\025\300\250f\025\300\250f\025\300 0xdc838cc8: \200\344\032\301\364\215\203\334oL\032\300 On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Doug wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Luoqi Chen wrote: > > > If you have a crash dump, could you look at the 4 longwords starting > > at address 0xc02698c0? It seemed to be an accouting problem. Do you > > by any chance use any kld module? zalloc() calls from within a module > > do not lock the vm_zone data structure, which is fine for UP but > > dangerous for SMP. > > Well the same machine crashed in the same place, so I can look at > the current crash for you: > > Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode > mp_lock = 01000002; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 > fault virtual address = 0x800018 > fault code = supervisor read, page not present > instruction pointer = 0x8:0xc01d1107 > stack pointer = 0x10:0xdc98fe28 > frame pointer = 0x10:0xdc98fe34 > code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b > = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 > processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 > current process = 41226 (httpd) > interrupt mask = net tty bio cam <- SMP: XXX > kernel: type 12 trap, code=0 > Stopped at zalloci+0x33: movl 0(%edx),%eax > > db> trace > zalloci(c02698c0,dc98fe58,c01f24c3,da07e7a4,91bb000) at zalloci+0x33 > get_pv_entry(da07e7a4,91bb000,ffc246ec,0,dc98fe90) at get_pv_entry+0x4a > pmap_insert_entry(da07e7a4,91bb000,c0572b60,8206000) at > pmap_insert_entry+0x1f > pmap_copy(da07e7a4,dc8eeb64,80c6000,1f85000,80c6000) at pmap_copy+0x1a0 > vm_map_copy_entry(dc8eeb00,da07e740,dc8327a8,dc861ed8) at > vm_map_copy_entry+0xdf > vmspace_fork(dc8eeb00,dc8e9ce0,dc8e9ce0,bfbfddbc,dc98ff30) at > vmspace_fork+0x1d3 > vm_fork(dc8ea940,dc8e9ce0,14) at vm_fork+0x2f > fork1(dc8ea940,14,dc98ff48,dc8ea940,9) at fork1+0x621 > fork(dc8ea940,dc98ff80,805b36c,30,bfbfddbc) at fork+0x16 > syscall(c01e002f,2f,2f,bfbfddbc,30) at syscall+0x19e > Xint0x80_syscall() at Xint0x80_syscall+0x31 > One other thing that I thought of related to the SMP issue is that > these are Intel N440BX motherboards, and the BIOS has an option to set the > "Multi-Processor Specification" or some such that was set to 1.4, with the > other option being 1.1. Would it be better to set it to 1.1, or was my > assumption that FreeBSD would ignore that setting anyways correct? > > I put more DDB stuff from this crash at > http://doug.simplenet.com/DDB2.txt, let me know if there is anything else > I need to do. Remote GDB is an option here if you think that'd be a better > tool. I'll check to see if I'm getting dumps when the machine comes back. > > Thanks, > > Doug > -- "Stop it, I'm gettin' misty." - Mel Gibson as Porter, "Payback" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17:29:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F58E1579D for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:29:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wsanchez@scv3.apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11966 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv3.apple.com (scv3.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:24:19 -0700 Received: from joliet-jake (joliet-jake.apple.com [17.202.40.140]) by scv3.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA26518; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910070024.RAA26518@scv3.apple.com> To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Cc: Joe Abley , Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:24:14 -0700 From: Wilfredo Sanchez Reply-To: wsanchez@apple.com X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | Please, don't give me this crap. "Removable media" is a very | well-defined terminology. Only in screw-your-device-into-the-machine land. We're have to consider hot-swappable devices, including hard disks and floppies and video cameras and new-uber-whatzit-media. -Fred -- Wilfredo Sanchez, wsanchez@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc., Core Operating Systems / BSD Technical Lead, Darwin Project 1 Infinite Loop, 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17:29:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D828614C11 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwd@mail.apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11817 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv3.apple.com (scv3.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:22:24 -0700 Received: from [17.202.40.76] (thunder.apple.com [17.202.40.76]) by scv3.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA26277; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910070022.RAA26277@scv3.apple.com> Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:22:20 -0700 x-sender: pwd@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Pat Dirks To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS >> >> When a new, never before seen disk is first mounted in the system it's >> treated as "foreign". This can be changed (with "root" permissions) to >> make the filesystem "local". The filesystem's ID is added to the list of >> local filesystems and forever after when the disk is mounted it's treated >> as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to >> choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: >> >> * Retain them as-is (useful for cases where you have external >> reasons to believe >> the numeric user and group IDs on the filesystem are sensible and >> meaningful) >> >> OR >> >> * Overwrite all owner/group information with the reserved ID >> "unknown". This >> leaves the effective permissions unchanged but enables them to be >> changed >> individually. You can chown(2) and chgrp(2) files and directories. >> >> Note that one interesting option might be to provide a one-time-only >> "adoption" which has no permanent effect; when the disk is encountered >> later it is once again "foreign". This might make sense for security >> reasons (if you don't want this disk to become a possible future carrier >> for SetUID binaries) > >I see a problem with the above. Suppose I receive a disk from a >friend, and then adopt it. I change owners and groups throughout the >fs (chown -R usr:grp is your friend :), and work on it for a while. >Later, _I return the disk to the original owner_. Now, the disk will >be recognized in _his_ computer as being local, when, in fact, it >should be treated as foreign. > >For this reason, I suggest you scrap the fs id if, when making it >local, you opt to replace owners and groups. I'm sorry I didn't mention it in my original post but the plan is that whenever a filesystem is "adopted" and the permissions are overwritten the filesystem's ID is changed to prevent it being recognized as "local" to any systems that previously knew it. If the filesystem's "adopted" while retaining the privileges, the systems that recognize the filesystem as "local" must be able to make sense of the same set of IDs (because they're all from the same source, for instance) and it makes sense to leave the filesystem ID unchanged. It must be possible to have a disk that I can swap between two systems here on the floor when I know there are no conflicting name <-> ID mappings, in which case the two systems must know the filesystem in question by the same filesystem ID. >A problem might still exist where you have a superset of the owners >and groups of whoever lent you the disk. In this case, you might end >up adding owners and groups that do not exist in the system where >the disk came from (and will be returned to). I think this is a >lesser problem, though. It is no worse than uid/gid problems with >NFS. That is indeed a problem, and whoever's deciding how to "adopt" the filesystem had better know what they're getting themselves into. Thanks! -Patrick. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17:32: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDE614C97 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:31:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwd@mail.apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17248 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv3.apple.com (scv3.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:31:21 -0700 Received: from [17.202.40.76] (thunder.apple.com [17.202.40.76]) by scv3.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27406; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910070031.RAA27406@scv3.apple.com> Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:31:19 -0700 x-sender: pwd@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Pat Dirks To: "Alban Hertroys" Cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On 5 Oct, Pat Dirks wrote: > >Sorry if I'm talking nonsense or if somebody else already pointed this >out, i usually just lurk around this list, but if I'm right I think it >is of sufficient significance... > >> ADOPTING "FOREIGN" FILESYSTEMS >> >> When a new, never before seen disk is first mounted in the system it's >> treated as "foreign". This can be changed (with "root" permissions) to >> make the filesystem "local". The filesystem's ID is added to the list of >> local filesystems and forever after when the disk is mounted it's treated >> as "local". As part of this "adoption" process the users is prompted to >> choose one of two ways to handle the existing permissions on the disk: > >Adding the filesystem to the systems list of local filesystems is not >going to guarantee that the filesystem is local at all. If you move a >disk from machine A to machine B, both machines will know the disk with >that ID to be local. Moving the disk back to machine A will cause it to >accept a filesystem as "local" that is actually "foreign". That's not a bug, that's a feature :-) Seriously, if a filesystem, created on system A, is "adopted" on system B with the option of retaining the existing IDs because they make sense on system B, with or without further manipulation through umapfs, it strikes me as DESIRABLE that newly created files and directories, tagged with IDs on system B, should show up as-is back on system A. I neglected to spell out in my original post that "adopting" a filesystem with the option of overwriting all permissions also changes the filesystem's ID and will prevent it from being recognized as "local" back on system A. >The "solution" would be to remove it's ID from the list when the >filesystem is removed from the system, but AFAIK the only way to detect >that is the "umount" that is required to do such. However, an umount >is not enough reason to unmark a filesystem as "local"; it also >happens at reboot, to name just one of the many occurances of umount. >As may become obvious, I'm not an expert at this at all. Perhaps the default behavior should be to accept a filesystem as local once only, requiring a special option to elect to treat the filesystem as "local" whenever it appears. Permanently connected local hard disks should be permanently recognized as "local", of course. >I would rather brand the filesystem with the ID of the host. The >starting situation is an "unmarked" filesystem. If a host detects the >mounting of an "unmarked" filesystem, it will brand it with it's ID. If >it detects a filesystem that has an ID that differs from the host's ID, >it is a foreign filesystem. Seems quite simple to me... The problem with that is that you cannot create filesystems that can be "local" on more than one system, even though there might be a large group of systems that share a common name <-> ID mapping (NetInfo, NIS, LDAP, Kerberos, whatever). It also makes it impossible to create read-only volumes that are "local" on any system other than the creating system. I'm missing the advantage here. If filesystems are created with a unique ID that's entered into the local system's list of "local" filesystems, wouldn't the basic behavior be the same? Systems that don't recognize a newly mounted filesystem's ID will still default to treating it as "foreign" automatically. What's gained by branding filesystems with the ID of a SINGLE "owning" system? Thanks, -Patrick. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 17:33: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669DD1579C for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:33:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wsanchez@scv3.apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12593 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv3.apple.com (scv3.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:32:39 -0700 Received: from joliet-jake (joliet-jake.apple.com [17.202.40.140]) by scv3.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27559; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910070032.RAA27559@scv3.apple.com> To: Brian Somers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Cc: Pat Dirks , FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: "Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:19:22 PDT."<199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:32:33 -0700 From: Wilfredo Sanchez Reply-To: wsanchez@apple.com X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | I think the owner and group of the person that mounted the filesystem | should be assigned to all files on that filesystem in FOREIGN mode. | -u and -g switches should be permitted to modify these, the -u being | restricted to root and the -g restricted to root or one of the groups | to which you are a member. And when you log out, and that disk is there when the next guy logs in, what happens? What if the media is inserted when nobody is logged in? Ignore it? Mount it as the next guy who logs in? There are pitfalls all around. | I don't think it's a good idea to be able to identify the filesystem | as being your own. It's too easy to introduce security problems that | way. I'd suggest a default of FOREIGN and a root-only mount option | for LOCAL - ie, root decides, nothing's automated. We it's too easy if we can't figure out a safe way to do this, yes. I think we can, though. Nothing automated... You will not enjoy Macintosh. :-) From the Core OS perspective, we would like to facilitate automation by the higher level tools like the Finder. We're in agreement that declaring a disk local is a priveledged operation. | And what uid/gid do new files get.... I can't say I like the idea of | a magic ``nobody'' uid/gid. "nobody" is used by NFS as has a different semantic. We'd need a different name. "unknown" is pretty clear, I think. -Fred -- Wilfredo Sanchez, wsanchez@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc., Core Operating Systems / BSD Technical Lead, Darwin Project 1 Infinite Loop, 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 18:42: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1789614D51 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:41:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA90163; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:41:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910070141.SAA90163@apollo.backplane.com> To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> :* what maximum value can I use for -i (bytes per inode) parmeter? I :> :aalready tried 16mln ... :> :> I wouldn't go that high. Try 262144. Here's an example: : :Why? I only need a couple o hundred inodes on this fs.. Because you don't gain anything by going higher. Once you get over a certain number fsck's run time is short enough that you no longer care. Even if you cannot contemplate using more then a few hundred files, restricting the number of inodes to just that only narrows your options later on. The only time you might really care is if you are generating, say, a boot floppy. :> test3:/root# newfs -i 262144 -f 8192 -b 65536 /dev/rvn1c :> /dev/rvn1c: 83886080 sectors in 2560 cylinders of 1 tracks, 32768 sectors :> 40960.0MB in 160 cyl groups (16 c/g, 256.00MB/g, 1024 i/g) : :Well, yes, but you used non-standar blocksize which you yourself don't :recommend. With standard 8192/1024 this command creates millions of :inodes which I don't need - what's worse, they cause fsck to run for :hours instead of seconds. The -i parameter controls the number of inodes, not the block size. The block size is irrelevant. :> The higher the bytes per inode the fewer the inodes and the faster :> fsck will run if you have to recover the filesystem. Too high a :> bytes-per-inode will screw up the filesystem's ability to manage :> the cylinder groups, though. : :Why? I thought this parameter describes (indirectly) only the total number :of inodes in the FS, which is otherwise set proportionally to FS size, :assuming it will be filled with very small files (2048B IIRC). : :I suspect it might have something to do with the placement policy (which :CG to use to put additional blocks belonging to the file), but I don't see :any immediate connection... UFS/FFS allocates inodes and blocks in the bitmap statistically. The algorithm works best when there are plenty inodes in the cylinder group and enough cylinder groups such that the block bitmaps are not too large, because the algorithm will become less efficient in such cases. :> There may be problems specifying larger block sizes, though nothing :> that we can't fix. : :What kind of problems? Will it simply not work, or will it corrupt the :FS? : :Thanks a lot for these comments! : :Andrzej Bialecki :// WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) Well, the kernel itself has a 256KB block size limit. The types of problems that will occur with large block sizes are mostly going to be related to the fact that the buffer cache is not tuned to deal with large block sizes, not even in -current. So it will not be very efficient. Also, caching large blocks creates inefficiencies in the VM system because the VM system likes to cache page-sized chunks (i.e. 4K on i386). The buffer cache is much less efficient dealing with large buffers which have had holes poked into them due to the VM caching algorithms. The disks will not be able to transfer file data any faster using large blocks verses the default, so beyond a certain point the performance simply stops improving. I would recommend a 16K or 32K block size and the only real reason for doing it that way is to reduce the number of indirect blockmap blocks required to maintain the file. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 19:25:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D061580E for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:24:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from localhost (brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01436; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.ac.hmc.edu: brdavis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:24:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Brooks Davis X-Sender: brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu To: Pat Dirks Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-Reply-To: <199910070022.RAA26277@scv3.apple.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Pat Dirks wrote: > I'm sorry I didn't mention it in my original post but the plan is that > whenever a filesystem is "adopted" and the permissions are overwritten > the filesystem's ID is changed to prevent it being recognized as "local" > to any systems that previously knew it. If the filesystem's "adopted" > while retaining the privileges, the systems that recognize the filesystem > as "local" must be able to make sense of the same set of IDs (because > they're all from the same source, for instance) and it makes sense to > leave the filesystem ID unchanged. It must be possible to have a disk > that I can swap between two systems here on the floor when I know there > are no conflicting name <-> ID mappings, in which case the two systems > must know the filesystem in question by the same filesystem ID. One question, does the design take in to account a group of machines which share a set of fs IDs? I ask because otherwise, you couldn't have adopted filesystems that work in a computer lab environment where you have no choice to assume all the machines are identical without some really extreme pain. -- Brooks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 19:57:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (pau-amma.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF49214E15 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:57:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA99394; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:55:21 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199910070255.TAA99394@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: bright@wintelcom.net, pwd@apple.com Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910070011.RAA00348@scv2.apple.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:11:41 -0700 >From: Pat Dirks >>This is very interesting, as a timesaver to the second option >>(overwriting) you could use the timestamp on the file's permissions >>to determine if the UID/GIDs are valid (if they are stale old uids, >>or new uid's after a chown/chgrp) >That'd be an intriguing optimization. It would require maintaining a >timestamp for every file and directory on the disk to note the time of >the last change, though, in addition to the filesystem's timestamp, >wouldn't it? I suppose you could check that the owner/group IDs are >corrected if the "last changed date" is ever updated and ignore the >owner/group IDs if the last changed date is before the filesystem's >timestamp and thereby incrementally update individual >filesystems/directories on the filesystem without a lengthy delay at >"adoption" time. Please be careful here. There is absolutely *no* (meta-)information that can be trusted on a "foreign" medium, unless one can trust each process (computer-originated or otherwise) that has had the ability to modify anything on the medium. [Bad analogy follows. Sorry, I can't help myself.] Suppose you give a kid a sucker. The kid might keep it in his mouth until it's all consumed, but that's not especially probable. More likely, it's repeatedly placed in his mouth & taken back out. Often, putting it back in his mouth is a reasonable thing to do... but it depends on where the sucker has been in the mean time. Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill dhw@whistle.com UNIX System Administrator voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (888) 347-0197 FAX: (650) 372-5915 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 21:23:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from houston.matchlogic.com (houston.matchlogic.com [205.216.147.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10DB914C06 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 21:23:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crandall@matchlogic.com) Received: by houston.matchlogic.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <4MZ7WJ2V>; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:23:36 -0600 Message-ID: <64003B21ECCAD11185C500805F31EC0303E73927@houston.matchlogic.com> From: Charles Randall To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Archie Cobbs Subject: RE: bind(2) sets errno to undocumented EAGAIN? Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:23:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Done. docs/14173 Thanks, Charles -----Original Message----- From: Archie Cobbs [mailto:archie@whistle.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 11:14 AM To: crandall@matchlogic.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bind(2) sets errno to undocumented EAGAIN? Charles Randall writes: > Under what conditions does bind(2) set errno to EAGAIN? The 3.2R bind(2) > manual page does not list that as a valid value for errno when bind returns > -1. Please file a PR so this gets fixed. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 23: 2:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wit401310.student.utwente.nl (wit401310.student.utwente.nl [130.89.236.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 749F214F83 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dalroi@wit401310.student.utwente.nl) Received: from wit401310.student.utwente.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wit401310.student.utwente.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1A71DD0; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:02:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:02:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Alban Hertroys Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems To: wsanchez@apple.com Cc: Pat Dirks , FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: <199910070011.RAA00314@scv2.apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-Id: <19991007060251.6D1A71DD0@wit401310.student.utwente.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 6 Oct, Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: > | I would rather brand the filesystem with the ID of the host. The > | starting situation is an "unmarked" filesystem. If a host detects the > | mounting of an "unmarked" filesystem, it will brand it with it's ID. If > | it detects a filesystem that has an ID that differs from the host's ID, > | it is a foreign filesystem. Seems quite simple to me... > > But then you have to put that information on the disk, and you're > back to trusting the disk. "Um, yeah, I'm local. Trust me." Hmmm... But you can also fake the filesystem ID to be one that was previously known by the system. Just make the filesystem local, put some horrible executables on it, and write back the original idea (if that's at all necessary, I'm still not sure it gets changed in between). The problem is that you write a "unique" ID on the disk. You can read the disk, so you can store that ID and write it back if you do want to harm somebody. Is public key encryption, or something like that, a solution? Or is this not necessary? My .001 cts. -- Alban Hertroys. http://wit401310.student.utwente.nl --- If I had a sig it would be fun. The quest for the Holy Sig has begun. I have not yet a clue, What will you see next issue? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 23:20:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258C214CAC for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:20:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: from home.elischer.org (home.elischer.org [207.76.204.203]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA53423; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:19:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer X-Sender: julian@home.elischer.org To: Alban Hertroys Cc: wsanchez@apple.com, Pat Dirks , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-Reply-To: <19991007060251.6D1A71DD0@wit401310.student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Alban Hertroys wrote: > On 6 Oct, Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: > > | I would rather brand the filesystem with the ID of the host. The > > | starting situation is an "unmarked" filesystem. If a host detects the > > | mounting of an "unmarked" filesystem, it will brand it with it's ID. If > > | it detects a filesystem that has an ID that differs from the host's ID, > > | it is a foreign filesystem. Seems quite simple to me... > > > > But then you have to put that information on the disk, and you're > > back to trusting the disk. "Um, yeah, I'm local. Trust me." > > Hmmm... But you can also fake the filesystem ID to be one that was > previously known by the system. Just make the filesystem local, put > some horrible executables on it, and write back the original idea (if > that's at all necessary, I'm still not sure it gets changed in between). > > The problem is that you write a "unique" ID on the disk. You can read > the disk, so you can store that ID and write it back if you do want to > harm somebody. Is public key encryption, or something like that, a > solution? Or is this not necessary? you could hash the superblocks and private key encrypt the hash. it still doesn't guarantee that the data hasn't been replaced 'in place'. for that you'd have to has the entire disk.... > > My .001 cts. > > -- > Alban Hertroys. > http://wit401310.student.utwente.nl > --- > If I had a sig it would be fun. > The quest for the Holy Sig has begun. > I have not yet a clue, > What will you see next issue? > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 6 23:58:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7567914FCC for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p09-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.106]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id PAA03100; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:57:58 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FC40AC.2205C7DF@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:41:48 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wsanchez@apple.com Cc: Matthew Dillon , Joe Abley , Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: <199910070019.RAA09580@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: > > | While it is certainly true that a person could eventually get > physical > | access into the machine, it is a significantly more difficult > task and > | therefore a significant distinction still exists between the > data stored > | on the hard drive and stored in, say, a floppy. > > This is becoming less and less true. One of the driving reasons > why we're trying to work out this issue is FireWire. At some point, > you might expect a computer that uses FireWire for both the internal > and external drives, and the kernel isn't necessarily going to be > able to know what's "locked inside" the computer vs what's outside > the computer; it's (possibly) all one big hot-swappable bus. Your > root device could certainly live outside the box. Distinguishing > "easily removeable" isn't the way to go here. As I pointed out, the distinction is one of intent on the part of the admin. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 0:34:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.128.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B310414C45 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:34:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA68583; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:31:33 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00312; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:41:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910070641.HAA00312@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Pat Dirks Cc: "Brian Somers" , "FreeBSD Hackers" Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Oct 1999 16:51:17 PDT." <199910062351.QAA21704@scv3.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 07:41:06 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >[.....] > >> Instead we decided to leave all name <-> ID mapping systems unchanged and > >> rely on a distinction between "local" filesystems whose permissions > >> information should be used and a "foreign" filesystem mode where owner > >> and group IDs are ignored. > >[.....] > > > >I think the owner and group of the person that mounted the filesystem > >should be assigned to all files on that filesystem in FOREIGN mode. > >-u and -g switches should be permitted to modify these, the -u being > >restricted to root and the -g restricted to root or one of the groups > >to which you are a member. > > > >This assumes the BSD style I-must-have-permission-to-read-and-write- > >the-raw-partitiion style filesystem mounting by users. It would have > >horrendous implications with the linux-style fstab-says-anyone-can- > >mount-this idea. But then, you already mention this later on :-] > > > >The filesystem code would also mask all suid bits and ignore all > >char/device files on FOREIGN media (as you've already said too). > > What do you see as the advantage of explicitly assigning ownership to the > mounting user/group? The effect should be the same in either case? I > suppose it allows an intereting middle-level of access to the group in > question? [.....] Well, the idea is that if I personally ``own'' the media, I'll want to put the appropriate permissions on files (eg, my private pgp key) and then carry it 'round in my back pocket. I want to be able to access that 0600 file after mounting the media and I don't want anyone else to. I think this is ability would be a big plus In the case of root, they should be able to do all this for any user - they can anyway by simply switching uids. Another thing that now occurs to me is that it should probably be possible for root to mount the disk as `user fred' but with groups as they are on the disk (and see below) - ie, I'm moving a disk from one system to another and those systems share the same groups, but not the users. > In the case of Mac OS X we've got a daemon in the system looking for new > disks being inserted/attached and doing the mount. We still want the > console user to have "ownership" of the filesystem in "foreign" mode. [.....] Ah, ok, so all files belong to that user - I didn't realise you'd said that. This is what I'm after too, but the group side of things should be dealt with too so that I can give others group permissions to various bits on my disk. Thinking about it, -g should probably allow some sort of mapping syntax where I can say map gid x to gid y and map gid a to gid b where I'm a member of groups y and b. By default, map no groups (everything's owned by the magical nobody to which nobody is a member).... -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 4:32: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freja.webgiro.com (freja.webgiro.com [212.209.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B2214E14 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 04:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 97EAA1925; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:31:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94EDD49DE; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:31:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:31:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Matthew Dillon Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters In-Reply-To: <199910070141.SAA90163@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > :> test3:/root# newfs -i 262144 -f 8192 -b 65536 /dev/rvn1c > :> /dev/rvn1c: 83886080 sectors in 2560 cylinders of 1 tracks, 32768 sectors > :> 40960.0MB in 160 cyl groups (16 c/g, 256.00MB/g, 1024 i/g) Running bonnie on the filesystem with these parameters results in unkillable process sitting in getblk (it's the first phase of bonnie test when they use putc() to create the file). It just sits there and doesn't consume CPU. The OS is 3.3-R. Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 7:41:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCD815182; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:41:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p16-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.113]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA26117; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:41:44 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FCB0C4.2D877215@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 23:40:04 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org Subject: arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As most of you are probably aware, the freebsd-arch mailing list is no longer a moderated list, as we know it. For now, it acts like a non-moderated list, except that some threads may be locked out of the list if they stray off topic. Some people tried starting two different threads in that list. We failed in both cases. Though we don't know yet, I suspect it is simply a case of lack of subscribers. So, here goes a call. Freebsd-arch is supposed to be a list were technical content can be discussed, and with a sufficient high signal/noise ratio to make it possible for committers to subscribe to it. While -committers fit this description, it is not of open subscription. Thus, I ask you, committers, to subscribe to that mailing list. Right now, you won't increase your mailing load by a single byte, so there is no immediate risk... :-) Please, give it a try. We need something like that list. And the same I ask of you, hackers-subscribed non-committers. Just to clarify, -arch is supposed to be used when discussing changes to FreeBSD itself. Things that might (or might not, depending on how the discussion goes) end up committed. The kind of thing we have been using -committers for, but when we want input of a larger group. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 7:45:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kronos.alcnet.com (kronos.alcnet.com [63.69.28.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E2915182 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:45:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@alcnet.com) X-Provider: ALC Communications, Inc. http://www.alcnet.com/ Received: from kbyanc (ws-41.alcnet.com [63.69.28.41]) by kronos.alcnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/antispam) with SMTP id KAA05645 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:43:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kelly Yancey" To: Subject: Re: bind(2) sets errno to undocumented EAGAIN? Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:43:34 -0400 Message-ID: <001701bf10d2$55e96940$291c453f@kbyanc.alcnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Archie Cobbs wrote: > > Charles Randall writes: > > Under what conditions does bind(2) set errno to EAGAIN? The 3.2R bind(2) > > manual page does not list that as a valid value for errno when bind > > returns -1. > Please file a PR so this gets fixed. > - -Archie I went ahead a submitted a simple patch: PR docs/14181 Kelly ~kbyanc@posi.net~ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve - http://www.freebsd.org/ Join Team FreeBSD - http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 8:14:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 463AF1514F; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:14:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: dcs@newsguy.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <37FCB0C4.2D877215@newsguy.com> (dcs@newsguy.com) Subject: Re: arch@freebsd.org Message-Id: <19991007151441.463AF1514F@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please note that freebsd-arch was created to provide a place for amicable high-level technical discussion. Anyone straying from the list charter will be removed. Anyone straying from the list charter will be removed. Discuss technical matters. Dont argue or state catagorically that "this is the only way" or "that is unacceptable". Anyone straying from this or departing from civil discourse will be removed. jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB > So, here goes a call. Freebsd-arch is supposed to be a list were > technical content can be discussed, and with a sufficient high > signal/noise ratio to make it possible for committers to subscribe > to it. While -committers fit this description, it is not of open > subscription. > > Thus, I ask you, committers, to subscribe to that mailing list. > Right now, you won't increase your mailing load by a single byte, so > there is no immediate risk... :-) Please, give it a try. We need > something like that list. > > And the same I ask of you, hackers-subscribed non-committers. > > Just to clarify, -arch is supposed to be used when discussing > changes to FreeBSD itself. Things that might (or might not, > depending on how the discussion goes) end up committed. The kind of > thing we have been using -committers for, but when we want input of > a larger group. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 8:27:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [194.242.128.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFD8151B5; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@florence.pavilion.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA16009; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:26:02 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:26:02 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <19991007162601.B70248@florence.pavilion.net> References: <37FCB0C4.2D877215@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <37FCB0C4.2D877215@newsguy.com> X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, 24 The Old Steine, Brighton, BN1 1EL, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 11:40:04PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > And the same I ask of you, hackers-subscribed non-committers. > > Just to clarify, -arch is supposed to be used when discussing > changes to FreeBSD itself. Things that might (or might not, > depending on how the discussion goes) end up committed. The kind of > thing we have been using -committers for, but when we want input of > a larger group. We could try applying a 'subscribers-only' posting policy. This will _definitely_ reduce the noise. Joe -- Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today? Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 8:33:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 1BE541512A; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:33:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: joe@pavilion.net Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19991007162601.B70248@florence.pavilion.net> (message from Josef Karthauser on Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:26:02 +0100) Subject: Re: arch@freebsd.org Message-Id: <19991007153312.1BE541512A@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG my problem with 'subscribers-only' posting policy is that people have more than one email address that they use. which one is teh honored one? if non-subscribers are a problem, i have ways of dealing with them. ;P Stopping Spam talk at FreeBSDcon jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 8:38:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [194.242.128.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC98914FCC; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@florence.pavilion.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA18820; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:36:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:36:51 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <19991007163651.A18343@florence.pavilion.net> References: <19991007162601.B70248@florence.pavilion.net> <19991007153312.1BE541512A@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991007153312.1BE541512A@hub.freebsd.org> X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, 24 The Old Steine, Brighton, BN1 1EL, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 08:33:12AM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > my problem with 'subscribers-only' posting policy is that people have > more than one email address that they use. which one is teh honored > one? > Erp, a very fair point. > > if non-subscribers are a problem, i have ways of dealing with them. ;P > Stopping Spam talk at FreeBSDcon > I'll come to yours if you'll come to mine ;ob Joe -- Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today? Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 9:16:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from drawbridge.ascend.com (drawbridge.ascend.com [198.4.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B5715097 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:16:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kvigor@shihtzu.eng.ascend.com) Received: from fw-ext.ascend.com (fw-ext [198.4.92.5]) by drawbridge.ascend.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA15088 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from russet.ascend.com by fw-ext.ascend.com via smtpd (for drawbridge.ascend.com [198.4.92.1]) with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 16:14:47 UT Received: from wopr.eng.ascend.com (wopr.eng.ascend.com [206.65.212.178]) by russet.ascend.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA08197 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shihtzu.eng.ascend.com (shihtzu.eng.ascend.com [204.253.164.44]) by wopr.eng.ascend.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15883 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kvigor@localhost) by shihtzu.eng.ascend.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA16843 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:14:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on Solaris X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:14:46 -0600 (MDT) Organization: Lucent Technologies InterNetworking Systems From: Kevin Vigor To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Hello & boot > cylinder 1024 suggestion Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello all, it's my first time, so please be gentle... I'm not sure if this is the right list for this issue (freebsd-install looks better, but is closed, at least according to the charter), so please redirect me if necessary. I was recently annoyed to find that I cannot install/boot FreeBSD from a hard drive partition extending beyond cylinder 1024 (not a problem unique to FreeBSD by any means...). Even with LBA support, this translates to an 8-gig limit (i.e. the boot partition must be completely within the first 8 gigs of the hard drive). Now that 20-gig & greater drives are commonly available, this becomes a real and annoying limitation. It occurred to me that a potential solution for this problem is to use an IDE specific interface in the boot process, thus side-stepping the stone-age BIOS int 13 interface (whence the 1024 cylinder limit originates). This would involve writing an IDE specific MBR loader (an adaptation of BootEZ) and adapting BTX similarly. This obviously doesn't help SCSI users, but does solve my problem nicely. I have done some basic hacking and convinced myself that this is possible using IDE PIO mode (inefficient, but hardly a major concern for the boot loader). This would obviously also require some alterations to the install process: it would need to detect an IDE interface and then allow installing the IDE specific boot sectors and installing onto a partition > 1024. So, questions: has anybody thought of this before? I couldn't find any reference to such a project anywhere, but it seems relatively obvious. Does this sound like a idea worth pursuing? And assuming that the previous answers are no and yes respectively, is there anyone who can/would assist with the install integration/testing portion of this (I am confident of my ability to code the MBR/BTX changes, but much less confident of my understanding on the install process). Peace, Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 9:36: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8460D14C16 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:35:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00502; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:33:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) From: John Polstra Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA47102; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:33:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910071633.JAA47102@vashon.polstra.com> To: darrylo@sr.hp.com Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) In-Reply-To: <199910051542.IAA16737@mina.sr.hp.com> References: <199910051542.IAA16737@mina.sr.hp.com> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <199910051542.IAA16737@mina.sr.hp.com>, Darryl Okahata wrote: > > There's the problem. While I agree with you about persistent, > annoying, and utterly clueless newbies, I don't agree with the apparent > sentiment (with which you may or may not agree) where all newbies (and > not just in -hackers) should be flamed and roasted. I've seen perfectly > innocent questions (asked once), from non-persistent/non-annoying > newbies, get flamed in -questions. Darryl is right, folks. Please either be nice or keep quiet. I swear I've seen more unjustified crabby answers in our mailing lists during the past month than at any other time during my involvement with the project. A few of you -- and you know who you are -- seem to make a point of writing something utterly rude every day. If you are so stressed out that you can't help it, then please just take a break from the lists entirely for a couple of weeks. You're not doing a thing to help our reputation. Remember, the _individual_ you are replying to is not personally responsible for the sum total of annoyances you have endured lately. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up." -- Nora Ephron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 10:30:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C064814FC4 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA95735; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:29:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910071729.KAA95735@apollo.backplane.com> To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : :Running bonnie on the filesystem with these parameters results in :unkillable process sitting in getblk (it's the first phase of bonnie test :when they use putc() to create the file). It just sits there and doesn't :consume CPU. The OS is 3.3-R. : :Andrzej Bialecki Hmmm. It's quite possible, 3.x's getnewbuf() code is pretty nasty. I have a solution under test for 4.x (current). There simply may not be anything that can be done for 3.x short of porting current's getnewbuf() code over, and doing so has been deemed too risky by DG due to all the collateral porting that would also have to be done. I agree with that assessment, plus it's a huge amount of work that I don't have time to do at this late date. Try using a smaller block size, like 16K. If that doesn't work then just stick with 8K I guess. The kernel's clustering code should still make it reasonably efficient. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 10:48:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E85152EA; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: from home.elischer.org (home.elischer.org [207.76.204.203]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA67752; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:48:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer X-Sender: julian@home.elischer.org To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <37FCB0C4.2D877215@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > As most of you are probably aware, the freebsd-arch mailing list is > no longer a moderated list, as we know it. For now, it acts like a > non-moderated list, except that some threads may be locked out of > the list if they stray off topic. > > Some people tried starting two different threads in that list. We > failed in both cases. Though we don't know yet, I suspect it is > simply a case of lack of subscribers. > > So, here goes a call. Freebsd-arch is supposed to be a list were > technical content can be discussed, and with a sufficient high > signal/noise ratio to make it possible for committers to subscribe > to it. While -committers fit this description, it is not of open > subscription. Well majordomo won't let me subscribe because it's a 'closed list' so how am I supposed to subscribe? (Assuming I'm not already). > > Thus, I ask you, committers, to subscribe to that mailing list. > Right now, you won't increase your mailing load by a single byte, so > there is no immediate risk... :-) Please, give it a try. We need > something like that list. > > And the same I ask of you, hackers-subscribed non-committers. > > Just to clarify, -arch is supposed to be used when discussing > changes to FreeBSD itself. Things that might (or might not, > depending on how the discussion goes) end up committed. The kind of > thing we have been using -committers for, but when we want input of > a larger group. > > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > dcs@newsguy.com > dcs@freebsd.org > > "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a > conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of > allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself > a little more?" > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 11: 4:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9A415396 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA95956; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:04:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910071804.LAA95956@apollo.backplane.com> To: wsanchez@apple.com, Pat Dirks , Alban Hertroys Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: <19991007060251.6D1A71DD0@wit401310.student.utwente.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :On 6 Oct, Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: :> | I would rather brand the filesystem with the ID of the host. The :> | starting situation is an "unmarked" filesystem. If a host detects the :> | mounting of an "unmarked" filesystem, it will brand it with it's ID. If :> | it detects a filesystem that has an ID that differs from the host's ID, :> | it is a foreign filesystem. Seems quite simple to me... :> :> But then you have to put that information on the disk, and you're :> back to trusting the disk. "Um, yeah, I'm local. Trust me." : :Hmmm... But you can also fake the filesystem ID to be one that was :previously known by the system. Just make the filesystem local, put :some horrible executables on it, and write back the original idea (if :that's at all necessary, I'm still not sure it gets changed in between). Ignoring the security issues for the moment, I think putting the FQDN (fully qualified domain name) of the 'owner' of the disk volume could prove extremely useful in the new internet age. As machines get better connected, such information could eventually be used by the operating system to translate user id's on the fly by using the domain name in the label to contact the host in question in order to obtain the translation. Something similar to MX DNS records (i.e. a hierarchically specified 'user translation' service) would glue it all together. Baring the availability of a domain name, some sort of unique ID could potentially serve the same function, but without the ability to look it up on the internet. Perhaps the real solution is to allow sites to distribute and maintain unique id's based on their domain name, e.g. FU123BAC@. These sites could also offer the uid translation service to its customers. :The problem is that you write a "unique" ID on the disk. You can read :the disk, so you can store that ID and write it back if you do want to :harm somebody. Is public key encryption, or something like that, a :solution? Or is this not necessary? : :My .001 cts. : :-- :Alban Hertroys. :http://wit401310.student.utwente.nl Revisiting security now... A provision for public-key encryption of the data held on the disk (as well as the id itself) would be useful. Just encrypting the ID alone would not be useful. The distinction would then shift away from whether the media is removable or not (it would no longer matter as much) and instead assume that no unencrypted data can ever be trusted and encrypted data can be trusted insofar as the ID can be trusted. Methinks this could result in a very useful project - an 'encrypted' UFS filesystem implementation plus domain based services to translate uid's on the fly. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 11: 4:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from garlic.acadiau.ca (garlic.acadiau.ca [131.162.2.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E0815396 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:04:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@acadiau.ca) Received: from atelier.acadiau.ca (atelier.acadiau.ca [131.162.138.103]) by garlic.acadiau.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02453; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:04:44 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:04:53 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: squid-users@ircache.net Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Squid under FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm running it right now on a 3.3-STABLE machien with a 166Mhz CPU (there are two inthe machine, but FreeBSD won't allow me to bring up the second oen *sigh*)...the machine has 512MB of RAM and ~24Gig of Disk space... The server is configured to use 128MB of RAM, and top is currently reporting: 39237 root 2 0 201M 200M poll 210:10 11.33% 11.33% squid And swap space isn't even being touched: demeter# pstat -s Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/da0s1b 1053584 0 1053456 0% Interleaved /dev/da1s1b 262144 0 262016 0% Interleaved /dev/da2s1b 262144 0 262016 0% Interleaved /dev/da3s1b 262144 0 262016 0% Interleaved /dev/da4s1b 262144 0 262016 0% Interleaved /dev/da5s1b 262144 0 262016 0% Interleaved /dev/da6s1b 262144 0 262016 0% Interleaved Total 2625552 0 2625552 0% All in all, I'm impressed...we did >490k requests through that server yesterday, after only ~7days since we brought it online, with 1800 hosts using it, and an average of 36% hit rate... Looking at the PolyGraph/BakeOff report, it has "FreeBSD Tweaks" in a section to its own...except that it pertains to FreeBSD 2.2.8, so I'm wondering both how much of it still applies as well as whether there is anything new I should be looking at... It lists: 1. Increase per process memory limits (already done) 2. Increase limit on mbuf clusters - netstat -m doesn't seem to indicate it being required, but it can't hurt - did it 3. Disabled TCP delayed acknowledgements (options TCP_ACK_HACK)...?? - can't find a reference to this one...was it just a 2.2.8ism? - didn't do it 4. Decreased TCP's Maximum Segment Lifetime to three seconds - did it 5. Apply a patch to uipc_socket.c to do with "fixing TCP bugs with small packets? - didn't do it 6. Increased system wide and per proces FD limits - did it 7. Increased ephemeral port range to 30,000 (net.inet.ip.portrange.last) - did it 8. Insrease the socket listen queue size (kern.somaxconn) - doesn't appear to exist anymore 9. Set resources limits in /etc/login.conf - did it 10. Disable unnecessary processes - didn't do this, since am using them This document can be found at http://bakeoff.ircache.net ... Comments/ideas on how to improve things? Thanks... Marc G. Fournier marc.fournier@acadiau.ca Senior Systems Administrator Acadia University "These are my opinions, which are not necessarily shared by my employer" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 11:20:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kronos.alcnet.com (kronos.alcnet.com [63.69.28.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBED4157E2 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@alcnet.com) X-Provider: ALC Communications, Inc. http://www.alcnet.com/ Received: from kbyanc (ws-41.alcnet.com [63.69.28.41]) by kronos.alcnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/antispam) with SMTP id OAA11628; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:20:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kelly Yancey" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:20:07 -0400 Message-ID: <001e01bf10f0$961f6aa0$291c453f@kbyanc.alcnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:33:24 -0700 (PDT) > From: Doug White > Subject: Re: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) > > On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Martin Blapp wrote: > > > > If you want to do this, I suggest a round of releases that have mount > > > complain about the @ syntax before you kill it. POLA, you know. > > > > > > A complaint such as: > > > > > > WARNING: path@server syntax is deprecated, use server:path > > > > > > would be sufficient. > > > > A good idea, but how can one make a difference between delimitors > > and path-components ? This would be impossible in some cases. > > Well, the current code must differentiate in some way, so attach the > warning to that. Looking at the code (on 3.2-STABLE) it looks like the suggested warning could be added but inserting warnx("WARNING: path@server syntax is deprecated, use server:path"); before line 667 of /usr/src/sbin/mount_nfs.c. But I don't see anywhere where it differentiates between delimitors and path-components. It is just a simple strchr() and the first @ or : it finds is assumed the be the delimitor. If you meant it as a path-component, you are SOL. In light of that, I think that adding the warning on line 667 then would be all that is needed. Unfortunately, this is just from my read of that section of code, as I don't have NFS running anywhere to test the actual behavior. Kelly ~kbyanc@posi.net~ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve - http://www.freebsd.org/ Join Team FreeBSD - http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 11:52: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDA21584E for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:51:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14418; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199910071847.OAA14418@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:46:16 -0400 To: Luigi Rizzo From: Dennis Subject: Re: ARPs on a bridge Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910061819.TAA13766@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> References: <199910061702.NAA10711@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The main router is the freebsd box. Broadcasts can go out of the router to the DSL customers, but they cant go from one customer to another because each is a distinct bridge group. Dennis At 07:19 PM 10/6/99 +0100, Luigi Rizzo wrote: >I still don't fully understand where, in the picture below, is the >"system" which you want to modify and what is instead standard stuff >that you cannot touch... > > >> >>From your description this is what i understand: >> > >> > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+----[ main router ]-- rest of net. >> > | >> > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+ >> > | >> > repeat 150 to 900 times | shared frame relay without >> > | multicast/broadcast support >> > customer ----[ DSL bridge ]------+ >> >> each DLCI is modeled as a PTP connection, so the system sees a physical >> interface for each channel. The bridge software just sees then as bridged >> interfaces. >> >> the "right" way to do it is to allocate a subnet to each bridge group, as >> different bridge groups cant talk at the mac layer by design. Im just >> trying to come up with an easy solution to free up addtional IP space so >> customers with only 2 address dont have to get a whole subnet. > > cheers > luigi > >-----------------------------------+------------------------------------- > Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . Dip. di Ing. dell'Informazione > http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ . Universita` di Pisa > TEL/FAX: +39-050-568.533/522 . via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) > > http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ngc99/ >==== First International Workshop on Networked Group Communication ==== >-----------------------------------+------------------------------------- > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 11:59:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8F914C1A for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C0DB81C23; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD4923817; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:02:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Sergey Shkonda , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) In-Reply-To: <19991006181004.T24928@florence.pavilion.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Josef Karthauser wrote: > cdid Display the serial number of the cd using the method > used by the cddb (http://www.cddb.org) project. URLs end with a trailing slash. (http://www.cddb.org/) -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 12: 0:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.calderasystems.com (phoenix.calderasystems.com [207.179.18.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F8A14FC4 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drdavis@calderasystems.com) Received: from calderasystems.com (drdavis@buddha.calderasystems.com [207.179.18.42]) by phoenix.calderasystems.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21513; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:00:31 -0600 Message-ID: <37FCEE77.7AA05A7A@calderasystems.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:03:19 -0600 From: "Darren R. Davis" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61C-CCK-MCD Caldera Systems OpenLinux [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon Cc: wsanchez@apple.com, Pat Dirks , Alban Hertroys , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems References: <19991007060251.6D1A71DD0@wit401310.student.utwente.nl> <199910071804.LAA95956@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------34621F2399F9E13067B7C400" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------34621F2399F9E13067B7C400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew Dillon wrote > > Revisiting security now... > > A provision for public-key encryption of the data held on the disk (as > well as the id itself) would be useful. Just encrypting the ID alone > would not be useful. > > The distinction would then shift away from whether the media is removable > or not (it would no longer matter as much) and instead assume that no > unencrypted data can ever be trusted and encrypted data can be trusted > insofar as the ID can be trusted. > > Methinks this could result in a very useful project - an 'encrypted' UFS > filesystem implementation plus domain based services to translate uid's > on the fly. > > -Matt > Matthew Dillon > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message Similar in thought to TCFS. see http://tcfs.dia.unisa.it/ Darren --------------34621F2399F9E13067B7C400 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="drdavis.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Darren R. Davis Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="drdavis.vcf" begin:vcard n:Davis;Darren tel;fax:801.765.1313 tel;work:801.765.4999 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.calderasystems.com org:Caldera Systems, Inc.;Engineering adr:;;240 West Center Street;Orem;UT;84057;USA version:2.1 email;internet:drdavis@calderasystems.com title:Director of Research x-mozilla-cpt:;-5088 fn:Darren Davis end:vcard --------------34621F2399F9E13067B7C400-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 12:14:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7768F14D1B for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17477 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:14:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA60735 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:14:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910071914.NAA60735@harmony.village.org> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 2.88Mb floppies In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Oct 1999 21:04:59 +0200." <199910021904.VAA16526@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> References: <199910021904.VAA16526@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:14:33 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199910021904.VAA16526@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Oliver Fromme writes: : Beware, I have not actually tried this with FreeBSD, and there : might be bugs that prevent using 2.88 Mb floppies. The BIOS will report a different value for the 2.88MB drives to the probe routines... You may need to do some touchup there as well. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 12:26:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C2C15274 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id VAA21975 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:21:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01955 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:23:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199910071923.VAA01955@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question To: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers list) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:23:07 +0200 (CEST) X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi there, I got my hands on an old Turbochannel Alpha machine. I'm currently in the process of attempting to install 3.3-Rel on it. Unfortunately it does not detect any disks: Entering kernel at 0xfffffc0000320fc0... Copyright (c) 1992-1999 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE #0: Thu Sep 16 16:33:09 GMT 1999 jkh@beast.cdrom.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/BOOTMFS DEC 3000/500 ("Flamingo") DEC 3000 - M400, 133MHz 8192 byte page size, 1 processor. CPU: EV4 (21064) major=2 minor=1 OSF PAL rev: 0x2012d real memory = 65011712 (63488K bytes) Physical memory chunk(s): 0x008da000 - 0x03ffdfff, 57819136 bytes (7058 pages) avail memory = 55926784 (54616K bytes) Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xfffffc00008be000. Preloaded mfs_root "/mfsroot" at 0xfffffc00008be0c0. tcasic0: tc0: <25 Mhz Turbochannel Bus> at tcasic0 ioasic0: at tc0 le0 at ioasic0, offset 0xc0000 le0: address 08:00:2b:3c:61:45 le0: 32 receive buffers, 8 transmit buffers mcclock0: at ioasic0, offset 0x200000 Calibrating clock(s) ... failed, using firmware default of 133000000 Hz struct nfssvc_sock bloated (> 256bytes) Try reducing NFS_UIDHASHSIZ struct nfsuid bloated (> 128bytes) Try unionizing the nu_nickname and nu_flag fields Timecounter "alpha" frequency 133000000 Hz Considering MFS root f/s. rootfs is 2880 Kbyte compiled in MFS start_init: trying /sbin/init start_init: trying /sbin/oinit start_init: trying /sbin/init.bak start_init: trying /stand/sysinstall I have the distinct (bad) feeling this is due to: # A single entry for any of these controllers (ncr, ahb, ahc, amd) is # sufficient for any number of installed devices. controller ncr0 controller isp0 #controller esp0 in GENERIC. I mean, esp is the driver for the 53C94 ncr scsi chip. Is there any particular reason why it is commented out in GENERIC? Floppy disk size limit maybe? Any clues? -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 12:34:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [194.242.128.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E2C14CCD for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@florence.pavilion.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA59512; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:34:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:34:09 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Sergey Shkonda , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) Message-ID: <19991007203409.G70248@florence.pavilion.net> References: <19991006181004.T24928@florence.pavilion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, 24 The Old Steine, Brighton, BN1 1EL, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:02:48PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > > cdid Display the serial number of the cd using the method > > used by the cddb (http://www.cddb.org) project. > > > URLs end with a trailing slash. (http://www.cddb.org/) > In agreement. Now if someone will give me commit priviledges I'll commit it :) Joe -- Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today? Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 13:25:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63F01512E for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA96990; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:25:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199910072025.OAA96990@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question In-Reply-To: <199910071923.VAA01955@yedi.iaf.nl> from Wilko Bulte at "Oct 7, 1999 09:23:07 pm" To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:25:25 -0600 (MDT) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD hackers list) From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wilko Bulte wrote... > Hi there, > > I got my hands on an old Turbochannel Alpha machine. I'm currently > in the process of attempting to install 3.3-Rel on it. > > Unfortunately it does not detect any disks: > > Entering kernel at 0xfffffc0000320fc0... > Copyright (c) 1992-1999 FreeBSD Inc. > Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE #0: Thu Sep 16 16:33:09 GMT 1999 > jkh@beast.cdrom.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/BOOTMFS > DEC 3000/500 ("Flamingo") > DEC 3000 - M400, 133MHz > 8192 byte page size, 1 processor. > CPU: EV4 (21064) major=2 minor=1 [ ... ] > I have the distinct (bad) feeling this is due to: > > # A single entry for any of these controllers (ncr, ahb, ahc, amd) is > # sufficient for any number of installed devices. > controller ncr0 > controller isp0 > #controller esp0 > > in GENERIC. I mean, esp is the driver for the 53C94 ncr scsi chip. > Is there any particular reason why it is commented out in GENERIC? > Floppy disk size limit maybe? The esp driver hasn't been ported to CAM. Are you volunteering? :) One other, perhaps easier task might be to write a TurboChannel front end for the AMD driver. Supposedly the AMD 53c974 and NCR 53C94 are pretty much the same chip. The NetBSD esp driver might be a good place to look for clues. Until the esp driver is ported, or someone makes the AMD driver work with those chips, you'll have to boot the machine diskless. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 14: 5:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freja.webgiro.com (freja.webgiro.com [212.209.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F023153EB for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 668581925; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:04:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6590C49CF; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:04:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:04:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Matthew Dillon Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters In-Reply-To: <199910071729.KAA95735@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > : > :Running bonnie on the filesystem with these parameters results in > :unkillable process sitting in getblk (it's the first phase of bonnie test > :when they use putc() to create the file). It just sits there and doesn't > :consume CPU. The OS is 3.3-R. > : > :Andrzej Bialecki > > Hmmm. It's quite possible, 3.x's getnewbuf() code is pretty nasty. I > have a solution under test for 4.x (current). There simply may not be > anything that can be done for 3.x short of porting current's getnewbuf() > code over, and doing so has been deemed too risky by DG due to all the > collateral porting that would also have to be done. I agree with that > assessment, plus it's a huge amount of work that I don't have time to do > at this late date. > > Try using a smaller block size, like 16K. If that doesn't work then just > stick with 8K I guess. The kernel's clustering code should still make it > reasonably efficient. Yeah, I guess that's the only way to do it on 3.x... But how can I speed up fsck then, since newfs will create millions of inodes I don't need which will cause fsck to run for ages... Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 14:18:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CA714C8F for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:18:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00614; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:17:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Wilko Bulte Cc: FreeBSD hackers list Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question In-Reply-To: <199910071923.VAA01955@yedi.iaf.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Wilko Bulte wrote: > # A single entry for any of these controllers (ncr, ahb, ahc, amd) is > # sufficient for any number of installed devices. > controller ncr0 > controller isp0 > #controller esp0 > > in GENERIC. I mean, esp is the driver for the 53C94 ncr scsi chip. > Is there any particular reason why it is commented out in GENERIC? > Floppy disk size limit maybe? The 53c94 driver didn't make the CAM switchover. I've got EISA and MCA based 53c94 devices just waiting for a driver so I've some interest in seeing this fixed at some point. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 15:11:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF0A1522E for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:11:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id AAA30363; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:02:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA43983; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:01:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question In-Reply-To: <199910072025.OAA96990@panzer.kdm.org> from "Kenneth D. Merry" at "Oct 7, 1999 2:25:25 pm" To: ken@kdm.org (Kenneth D. Merry) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:01:34 +0200 (CEST) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Kenneth D. Merry wrote ... > Wilko Bulte wrote... > > I have the distinct (bad) feeling this is due to: > > > > # A single entry for any of these controllers (ncr, ahb, ahc, amd) is > > # sufficient for any number of installed devices. > > controller ncr0 > > controller isp0 > > #controller esp0 > > > > in GENERIC. I mean, esp is the driver for the 53C94 ncr scsi chip. > > Is there any particular reason why it is commented out in GENERIC? > > Floppy disk size limit maybe? > > The esp driver hasn't been ported to CAM. Are you volunteering? :) I noticed that when I tried to compile a TC-enabled kernel on my Aspen Alpine. Sort of familiar looking header files were missing ;-) Pre-CAM files obviously. Volunteering... if I could find the time. Unlikely.. Is there a description somewhere how I can create my own test boot floppies? (I have a SCSI-interfaced floppy disk; works great BTW). I found write_mfs_in_kernel but the Makefile in /usr/src/release sort of escapes me in this respect (also in other respects to be honest..) How difficult would CAMifying a driver be? > One other, perhaps easier task might be to write a TurboChannel front end > for the AMD driver. Supposedly the AMD 53c974 and NCR 53C94 are pretty > much the same chip. Sounds like one needs to dig into the TC idiosyncrasies. I'd rather not. > The NetBSD esp driver might be a good place to look for clues. > > Until the esp driver is ported, or someone makes the AMD driver work with > those chips, you'll have to boot the machine diskless. Yuck. -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 15:14:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F2615368 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:14:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26060; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:14:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:13:48 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <19991007171348.D20768@futuresouth.com> References: <37FCB0C4.2D877215@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <37FCB0C4.2D877215@newsguy.com> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 11:40:04PM +0900, a little birdie told me that Daniel C. Sobral remarked > > Some people tried starting two different threads in that list. We > failed in both cases. Though we don't know yet, I suspect it is > simply a case of lack of subscribers. Hmmm... I WAS subscribed, and I never unsubscribed, and I even tried resubscribing a few times since I've never seen any traffic since January, and every time it told me I was still subscribed. Hmm... subscribe request just went through clean though. Was there a mass-unsubscription somewhere? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 15:52:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DB8153CC for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:52:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA97898; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:50:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199910072250.QAA97898@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question In-Reply-To: <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> from Wilko Bulte at "Oct 8, 1999 00:01:34 am" To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:50:02 -0600 (MDT) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wilko Bulte wrote... > As Kenneth D. Merry wrote ... > > Wilko Bulte wrote... > > > > I have the distinct (bad) feeling this is due to: > > > > > > # A single entry for any of these controllers (ncr, ahb, ahc, amd) is > > > # sufficient for any number of installed devices. > > > controller ncr0 > > > controller isp0 > > > #controller esp0 > > > > > > in GENERIC. I mean, esp is the driver for the 53C94 ncr scsi chip. > > > Is there any particular reason why it is commented out in GENERIC? > > > Floppy disk size limit maybe? > > > > The esp driver hasn't been ported to CAM. Are you volunteering? :) > > I noticed that when I tried to compile a TC-enabled kernel on my Aspen > Alpine. Sort of familiar looking header files were missing ;-) Pre-CAM > files obviously. > > Volunteering... if I could find the time. Unlikely.. Bummer. > Is there a description somewhere how I can create my own test boot > floppies? (I have a SCSI-interfaced floppy disk; works great BTW). > I found write_mfs_in_kernel but the Makefile in /usr/src/release sort of > escapes me in this respect (also in other respects to be honest..) You should probably look at the PicoBSD stuff. > How difficult would CAMifying a driver be? Like the esp driver? I dunno. I haven't done it, so I can't say for sure. It looks like the esp-type chips don't have an on-board phase engine, so the driver has to do the work. So the driver behavior may be a little bit more complicated than a driver for a mailbox-type card. My guess is that it would be easier to write a TC front end for the amd driver. > > One other, perhaps easier task might be to write a TurboChannel front end > > for the AMD driver. Supposedly the AMD 53c974 and NCR 53C94 are pretty > > much the same chip. > > Sounds like one needs to dig into the TC idiosyncrasies. I'd rather not. I think that writing a TC attach routine for the AMD driver would be a good deal easier than porting the esp driver to CAM. It seems like the NCR 53C94 and AMD 53C974 chips are pretty similar. I tell you what -- if you're serious about getting this working, talk to me offline, and maybe I'll do the driver. I'd obviously need hardware, though, since I don't have any of the hardware in question. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 16: 6: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C8614A2B for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA98000; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:04:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199910072304.RAA98000@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at "Oct 7, 1999 05:17:21 pm" To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:04:09 -0600 (MDT) Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte), FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD hackers list) From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthew N. Dodd wrote... > On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > # A single entry for any of these controllers (ncr, ahb, ahc, amd) is > > # sufficient for any number of installed devices. > > controller ncr0 > > controller isp0 > > #controller esp0 > > > > in GENERIC. I mean, esp is the driver for the 53C94 ncr scsi chip. > > Is there any particular reason why it is commented out in GENERIC? > > Floppy disk size limit maybe? > > The 53c94 driver didn't make the CAM switchover. > > I've got EISA and MCA based 53c94 devices just waiting for a driver so > I've some interest in seeing this fixed at some point. Well, you might want to look at what it would take to get the AMD driver working with that hardware. It might be easier than porting the esp driver to CAM. My guess is that the NetBSD esp driver would be a good place to look -- it supposedly works with AMD 53c974 chips as well as ESP chips and NCR 53c94 chips. So you could see what the differences are between the various chips there. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 16:57:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bomber.avantgo.com (ws1.avantgo.com [207.214.200.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4E514E03; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sa-list@avantgo.com) Received: from avantgo.com ([10.0.128.109]) by bomber.avantgo.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id 325; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:51:52 -0700 Message-ID: <37FD3391.1F84611A@avantgo.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 16:58:09 -0700 From: Stevan Arychuk Reply-To: sa-list@avantgo.com Organization: AvantGo Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: FreeBSD-stable@freebsd.org Subject: SMP + fxp0 wierdness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greetings, We're running 3.3-REL on dual processor PII-450's, with a N440BX motherboard, using the onboard EtherExpress Pro (fxp) NIC and 512MB RAM. These machines are running custom software that excercises the disk, CPU and network quite heavily. The SMP machines seem to have both "fxp0: device timeout" problems, and spontaneous reboots. We were uable to get a working savecore until now, and have traced the reboots back to the fxp driver as well. Here are the debug outputs, and any custom changes to our kernel config. Could this be a problem with SMP + fxp combination? Any other thoughts or ideas? We've serached, and read, and searched all the FAQ's for both of these problems, and have pretty well come up empty. Suggestions for the next course of action? Thanks in advance for anyones help. Regards, Stevan Arychuk AvantGo Inc. stevan@avantgo.com --- gdb output --- IdlePTD 2641920 initial pcb at 21d290 panicstr: page fault panic messages: --- Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode mp_lock = 00000002; cpuid = 0; lapic.id = 01000000 fault virtual address = 0x293a84d4 fault code = supervisor write, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xc018979e stack pointer = 0x10:0xff804f78 frame pointer = 0x10:0xff804f88 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = Idle interrupt mask = net <- SMP: XXX trap number = 12 panic: page fault mp_lock = 00000002; cpuid = 0; lapic.id = 01000000 boot() called on cpu#0 syncing disks... 200 190 169 149 106 37 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 giving up dumping to dev 20401, offset 524288 dump 256 255 254 253 ... ...1 #0 0xc013d473 in boot () (kgdb) bt #0 0xc013d473 in boot () #1 0xc013d741 in panic () #2 0xc01ce080 in trap_fatal () #3 0xc01cdcfb in trap_pfault () #4 0xc01cd95a in trap () #5 0xc018979e in fxp_add_rfabuf () #6 0xc0188af5 in fxp_intr () --- Instruction pointer trace --- freebsd# nm /kernel |grep c01897 c01897e0 t fxp_mdi_read --- Kernel Config --- Everything is generic except for: maxusers 512 options NMBCLUSTERS=33280 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 17:18:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wank.necropolis.org (wank.westin16.flyingcroc.net [207.246.128.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45E214BB7; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:18:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from todd@flyingcroc.net) Received: from localhost (todd@localhost) by wank.necropolis.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA95413; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from todd@flyingcroc.net) X-Authentication-Warning: wank.necropolis.org: todd owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:24:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Backman X-Sender: todd@wank.necropolis.org To: Stevan Arychuk Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SMP + fxp0 wierdness In-Reply-To: <37FD3391.1F84611A@avantgo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We run about 50 machines with a similar setup (asus p2bd mb) all of which run quite well. We have NMBCLUSERS=30720 though... - Todd On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Stevan Arychuk wrote: > Greetings, > > We're running 3.3-REL on dual processor PII-450's, with a N440BX > motherboard, using the onboard EtherExpress Pro (fxp) NIC and 512MB RAM. > > These machines are running custom software that excercises the disk, CPU > and network quite heavily. The SMP machines seem to have both "fxp0: > device timeout" problems, and spontaneous reboots. We were uable to get > a working savecore until now, and have traced the reboots back to the > fxp driver as well. Here are the debug outputs, and any custom changes > to our kernel config. > > Could this be a problem with SMP + fxp combination? Any other thoughts > or ideas? > > We've serached, and read, and searched all the FAQ's for both of these > problems, and have pretty well come up empty. Suggestions for the next > course of action? > > Thanks in advance for anyones help. > > Regards, > > Stevan Arychuk > AvantGo Inc. > stevan@avantgo.com > > > --- gdb output --- > > IdlePTD 2641920 > initial pcb at 21d290 > panicstr: page fault > panic messages: > --- > Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode > mp_lock = 00000002; cpuid = 0; lapic.id = 01000000 > fault virtual address = 0x293a84d4 > fault code = supervisor write, page not present > instruction pointer = 0x8:0xc018979e > stack pointer = 0x10:0xff804f78 > frame pointer = 0x10:0xff804f88 > code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b > = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 > processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 > current process = Idle > interrupt mask = net <- SMP: XXX > trap number = 12 > panic: page fault > mp_lock = 00000002; cpuid = 0; lapic.id = 01000000 > boot() called on cpu#0 > > syncing disks... 200 190 169 149 106 37 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 > giving up > > dumping to dev 20401, offset 524288 > dump 256 255 254 253 ... ...1 > > #0 0xc013d473 in boot () > (kgdb) bt > #0 0xc013d473 in boot () > #1 0xc013d741 in panic () > #2 0xc01ce080 in trap_fatal () > #3 0xc01cdcfb in trap_pfault () > #4 0xc01cd95a in trap () > #5 0xc018979e in fxp_add_rfabuf () > #6 0xc0188af5 in fxp_intr () > > --- Instruction pointer trace --- > > freebsd# nm /kernel |grep c01897 > c01897e0 t fxp_mdi_read > > --- Kernel Config --- > > Everything is generic except for: > > maxusers 512 > options NMBCLUSTERS=33280 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 17:24:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C9E14BB7; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02524; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:16:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910080016.RAA02524@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: sa-list@avantgo.com Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SMP + fxp0 wierdness In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 1999 16:58:09 PDT." <37FD3391.1F84611A@avantgo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:16:53 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Greetings, > > We're running 3.3-REL on dual processor PII-450's, with a N440BX > motherboard, using the onboard EtherExpress Pro (fxp) NIC and 512MB RAM. > > These machines are running custom software that excercises the disk, CPU > and network quite heavily. The SMP machines seem to have both "fxp0: > device timeout" problems, and spontaneous reboots. We were uable to get > a working savecore until now, and have traced the reboots back to the > fxp driver as well. Here are the debug outputs, and any custom changes > to our kernel config. > > Could this be a problem with SMP + fxp combination? Any other thoughts > or ideas? This is a known problem, insofar as it's been seen on a wide range of systems. It's not SMP specific, but it does appear to be very sensitive to your hardware configuration (eg. we were seeing it repeatedly in combination with an ncr SCSI card, and when we switched to an Adaptec it went away). Others have reported it in conjunction with Adaptec cards however, as well as in IDE-only systems. We haven't been successful in stirring David Greenman's interest in this so far, which is really crucial since the only common factor in these problems so far has been the fxp card/driver combination. > #4 0xc01cd95a in trap () > #5 0xc018979e in fxp_add_rfabuf () For anyone else wondering whether they're seeing this problem, the above two lines are the signature; there is a point inside fxp_add_rfabuf where the variables on the stack seem right, but the register shadows of the variables are corrupt, causing the trap. I spent several days looking at this and came away with a sore head. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 18:31: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (dynamic-31.max1-du-ws.dialnetwork.pavilion.co.uk [212.74.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB8A514E47 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03140; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:07:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@lan.awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00496; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:05:48 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910071705.SAA00496@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: wsanchez@apple.com Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Joe Abley , Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:24:14 PDT." <199910070024.RAA26518@scv3.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:05:48 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > | Please, don't give me this crap. "Removable media" is a very > | well-defined terminology. > > Only in screw-your-device-into-the-machine land. > > We're have to consider hot-swappable devices, including hard disks > and floppies and video cameras and new-uber-whatzit-media. The admin has to ``mount -u'' it local - it should default to foreign. > -Fred > > > -- > Wilfredo Sanchez, wsanchez@apple.com > Apple Computer, Inc., Core Operating Systems / BSD > Technical Lead, Darwin Project > 1 Infinite Loop, 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 18:31:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (dynamic-31.max1-du-ws.dialnetwork.pavilion.co.uk [212.74.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B930153D2 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03155; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:10:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@lan.awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00480; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:04:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910071704.SAA00480@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: wsanchez@apple.com, Matthew Dillon , Joe Abley , Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:41:48 +0900." <37FC40AC.2205C7DF@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:04:08 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [.....] > As I pointed out, the distinction is one of intent on the part of > the admin. Absolutely. > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) [.....] -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 19: 6:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 6F8AA153AB; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C451CD43A; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:06:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:06:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Pat Dirks Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-Reply-To: <199910052119.OAA24627@scv1.apple.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here's a passing thought I had which may be relevant. Make uids randomly assigned. This solves the problem of collision between uids on an introduced medium and the ones on the local system by making it statistical (if the uid space is large enough). In order to manage this among multiple machines, you'd probably need a synchronisation facility, both online (connect to some network database), and by an "export/import" facility which lets you dump a DB and import (parts of) it on another machine. Storing the large uid in the inode is probably not feasible w/o breaking compatability, but you could indirect it through a mapping table loaded from elsewhere on disk when the FS is mounted. The downside to this is not being able to assign the uids according to your own numbering scheme. Perhaps what could be done is to have a lookup table which maps between in-system uids and on-disk ones, such that the kernel presents the translated uid to the system, and remaps the unknown ones. Kris ---- XOR for AES -- join the campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 21:56: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 416E314BDE; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06681; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910080454.VAA06681@implode.root.com> To: sa-list@avantgo.com Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SMP + fxp0 wierdness In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 1999 16:58:09 PDT." <37FD3391.1F84611A@avantgo.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 21:54:57 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >We're running 3.3-REL on dual processor PII-450's, with a N440BX >motherboard, using the onboard EtherExpress Pro (fxp) NIC and 512MB RAM. > >These machines are running custom software that excercises the disk, CPU >and network quite heavily. The SMP machines seem to have both "fxp0: >device timeout" problems, and spontaneous reboots. We were uable to get >a working savecore until now, and have traced the reboots back to the >fxp driver as well. Here are the debug outputs, and any custom changes >to our kernel config. > >Could this be a problem with SMP + fxp combination? Any other thoughts >or ideas? > >We've serached, and read, and searched all the FAQ's for both of these >problems, and have pretty well come up empty. Suggestions for the next >course of action? > >Thanks in advance for anyones help. There is some kind of hardware problem with the Intel N440BX motherboard that is causing memory corruption during the DMA. This is the third nearly identical report I've gotten about it. It does not appear to be a FreeBSD bug and so far only occurs when using the N440BX. You might try messing with the BIOS options and see if changing any of the DMA related settings will make the problem go away...I'd be very interested in the results. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 22: 2:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F2614EFE for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:02:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA98482; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:01:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:01:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910080501.WAA98482@apollo.backplane.com> To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> :> Try using a smaller block size, like 16K. If that doesn't work then just :> stick with 8K I guess. The kernel's clustering code should still make it :> reasonably efficient. : :Yeah, I guess that's the only way to do it on 3.x... But how can I speed :up fsck then, since newfs will create millions of inodes I don't need :which will cause fsck to run for ages... : :Andrzej Bialecki The problem should only be effected by the blocksize (-b) specification. Adjusting the bytes-per-inode (-i) specification in newfs should not pose a problem. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 22:49:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935A7150C0 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:49:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19130; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:49:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA63504; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:48:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910080548.XAA63504@harmony.village.org> To: Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question Cc: ken@kdm.org (Kenneth D. Merry), FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 1999 00:01:34 +0200." <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> References: <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 23:48:57 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> Wilko Bulte writes: : How difficult would CAMifying a driver be? Speaking of which, has a "How to CAMify a driver" doc been written? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 7 22:51:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E4114A2A for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA99943; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:51:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199910080551.XAA99943@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question In-Reply-To: <199910080548.XAA63504@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Oct 7, 1999 11:48:57 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:51:17 -0600 (MDT) Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte), FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote... > In message <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> Wilko Bulte writes: > : How difficult would CAMifying a driver be? > > Speaking of which, has a "How to CAMify a driver" doc been written? Nope. You've CAMified a driver, would you like to write it? :) Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 0:14: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [158.36.41.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A284B153D8 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: (qmail 25161 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Oct 1999 07:12:32 +0000 (GMT) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 3.3-STABLE panic in m_copym From: sthaug@nethelp.no X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.34.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:12:32 +0200 Message-ID: <25159.939366752@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have a Compaq Proliant 3000 (2 x PII-333) running 3.3-STABLE which has crashed several times with the following backtrace: #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:285 #1 0xc0144299 in panic (fmt=0xc023eb04 "m_copym") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:446 #2 0xc015ac7e in m_copym (m=0xc141ae80, off0=10788, len=1216, wait=1) at ../../kern/uipc_mbuf.c:435 #3 0xc019286a in tcp_output (tp=0xd0be8960) at ../../netinet/tcp_output.c:505 #4 0xc0194106 in tcp_usr_send (so=0xd0ae9640, flags=0, m=0xc1420680, nam=0x0, control=0x0, p=0xd0e95b20) at ../../netinet/tcp_usrreq.c:395 #5 0xc015c4b2 in sosend (so=0xd0ae9640, addr=0x0, uio=0xd0ee5f10, top=0xc1420680, control=0x0, flags=0, p=0xd0e95b20) at ../../kern/uipc_socket.c:530 #6 0xc01525dc in soo_write (fp=0xc210c600, uio=0xd0ee5f10, cred=0xc1fce600, flags=0) at ../../kern/sys_socket.c:82 #7 0xc014f46a in dofilewrite (p=0xd0e95b20, fp=0xc210c600, fd=7, buf=0x806f0f4, nbyte=8192, offset=-1, flags=0) at ../../kern/sys_generic.c:363 #8 0xc014f373 in write (p=0xd0e95b20, uap=0xd0ee5f94) at ../../kern/sys_generic.c:298 #9 0xc021f39b in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = -1078001625, tf_edi = 671806342, tf_esi = 7, tf_ebp = -1077949676, tf_isp = -789684252, tf_ebx = 0, tf_edx = 434759, tf_ecx = 0, tf_eax = 4, tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 2, tf_eip = 134533700, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 518, tf_esp = -1077949700, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:1100 #10 0xc020b2ac in Xint0x80_syscall () The panic is the following loop in m_copym: while (off > 0) { if (m == 0) panic("m_copym"); if (off < m->m_len) break; off -= m->m_len; m = m->m_next; } so it seems to be running off the end of the mbuf chain before having verified the whole length. Following the m_next pointers, starting with the mbuf pointer from the calling routine, I get a total of 5 mbufs in this chain, with the following lengths: 0xc141ae80 2048 0xc13fef80 2008 0xc1446e00 2048 0xc147fe80 872 0xc1420680 1216 The total is 8192, so obviously copying 1216 bytes at offset 10788 won't work. The crash only happens occasionally, typically several days apart. The crash is not specific to 3.3-STABLE, it also happened with 3.2-STABLE. Does this ring a bell with anybody? Anything more I should check in the kernel dump? The machine is a news feeder box, running diablo-1.24 - thus it would be expected to be a heavy consumer of mbufs. It has NMBCLUSTERS=4096 in the kernel config. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # From: $FreeBSD: src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC,v 1.143.2.22 1999/09/14 22:53:30 jkh Exp $ machine "i386" cpu "I686_CPU" ident "NEWSFEED1" maxusers 50 options MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation options INET #InterNETworking options FFS #Berkeley Fast Filesystem options FFS_ROOT #FFS usable as root device [keep this!] options NFS #Network Filesystem options NFS_ROOT #NFS usable as root device, "NFS" req'ed options MSDOSFS #MSDOS Filesystem options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 Filesystem options "CD9660_ROOT" #CD-ROM usable as root. "CD9660" req'ed options PROCFS #Process filesystem options "COMPAT_43" #Compatible with BSD 4.3 [KEEP THIS!] options SCSI_DELAY=5000 #Be pessimistic about Joe SCSI device options UCONSOLE #Allow users to grab the console options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor options KTRACE #ktrace(1) syscall trace support options SYSVSHM #SYSV-style shared memory options SYSVMSG #SYSV-style message queues options SYSVSEM #SYSV-style semaphores options MSGBUF_SIZE=32768 options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel options "NMBCLUSTERS=4096" # default based on maxusers=50 is 1312 - not enough! options DDB options DDB_UNATTENDED options SOFTUPDATES options "MAXMEM=(576*1024)" # 64 MB + 512 MB, in kB config kernel root on da0 options SMP # Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel options APIC_IO # Symmetric (APIC) I/O options NINTR=50 # number of INTs controller isa0 controller eisa0 controller pci0 controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 options "CMD640" # work around CMD640 chip deficiency controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 options ATAPI #Enable ATAPI support for IDE bus options ATAPI_STATIC #Don't do it as an LKM device acd0 #IDE CD-ROM controller ncr0 # NCR/Symbios Logic controller scbus0 # SCSI bus (required) device da0 # Direct Access (disks) device sa0 # Sequential Access (tape etc) device cd0 # CD device pass0 # Passthrough device (direct SCSI) controller atkbdc0 at isa? port IO_KBD tty device atkbd0 at isa? tty irq 1 device psm0 at isa? tty irq 12 device vga0 at isa? port ? conflicts device sc0 at isa? tty device npx0 at isa? port IO_NPX irq 13 device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" flags 0x10 tty irq 4 device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty irq 3 device de0 # DEC/Intel DC21x4x (``Tulip'') device fxp0 # Intel EtherExpress PRO/100B (82557, 82558) device tl0 # Texas Instruments ThunderLAN pseudo-device loop # Network loopback pseudo-device ether # Ethernet support pseudo-device ppp 1 # Kernel PPP pseudo-device tun 1 # Packet tunnel pseudo-device pty 16 # Pseudo-ttys (telnet etc) pseudo-device gzip # Exec gzipped a.out's pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter pseudo-device ccd 4 #Concatenated disk driver ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright (c) 1992-1999 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE #1: Sun Sep 19 13:08:57 CEST 1999 sthaug@newsfeed1.telia.no:/local/freebsd/src/sys/compile/NEWSFEED1 Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CPU: Pentium II/Xeon/Celeron (686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x651 Stepping = 1 Features=0x183fbff real memory = 603979776 (589824K bytes) avail memory = 584122368 (570432K bytes) Programming 28 pins in IOAPIC #0 EISA INTCONTROL = 00000620 IOAPIC #0 intpint 24 -> irq 5 FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 cpu1 (AP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 io0 (APIC): apic id: 8, version: 0x001b0011, at 0xfec00000 Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc02d2000. Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled eisa0: Probing for devices on the EISA bus Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x03 on pci0.0.0 vga0: rev 0x22 int a irq 255 on pci0.6.0 chip1: rev 0x07 on pci0.15.0 chip2: rev 0x03 on pci0.17.0 Probing for devices on PCI bus 1: ncr0: rev 0x14 int a irq 19 on pci1.4.0 ncr1: rev 0x14 int b irq 18 on pci1.4.1 fxp0: rev 0x05 int a irq 18 on pci1.7.0 fxp0: Ethernet address 00:90:27:13:f6:21 tl0: rev 0x10 int a irq 17 on pci1.8.0 tl0: Ethernet address: 00:08:c7:1e:a7:35 tl0: autoneg not complete, no carrier Probing for devices on PCI bus 2: Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 on isa sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> atkbdc0 at 0x60-0x6f on motherboard atkbd0 irq 1 on isa psm0: failed to get data. psm0 irq 12 on isa psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa wdc0: unit 0 (atapi): , removable, accel, dma, iordis acd0: drive speed 1378KB/sec, 128KB cache acd0: supported read types: CD-DA acd0: Audio: play, 256 volume levels acd0: Mechanism: ejectable tray acd0: Medium: no/blank disc inside, unlocked vga0 at 0x3b0-0x3df maddr 0xa0000 msize 131072 on isa npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface APIC_IO: Testing 8254 interrupt delivery APIC_IO: Broken MP table detected: 8254 is not connected to IO APIC int pin 2 APIC_IO: routing 8254 via 8259 on pin 0 ccd0-3: Concatenated disk drivers Waiting 5 seconds for SCSI devices to settle SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! changing root device to da0s3da0 at ncr0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 da0: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device da0: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled da0: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C) da2 at ncr0 bus 0 target 4 lun 0 da2: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device da2: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled da2: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C) da3 at ncr0 bus 0 target 5 lun 0 da3: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device da3: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled da3: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C) da1 at ncr0 bus 0 target 1 lun 0 da1: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device da1: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled da1: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C) a WARNING: / was not properly dismounted To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 0:14:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freja.webgiro.com (freja.webgiro.com [212.209.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513A0157BB for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6B1781925; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:14:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A31949CF; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:14:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:14:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Matthew Dillon Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters In-Reply-To: <199910080501.WAA98482@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > :> > :> Try using a smaller block size, like 16K. If that doesn't work then just > :> stick with 8K I guess. The kernel's clustering code should still make it > :> reasonably efficient. > : > :Yeah, I guess that's the only way to do it on 3.x... But how can I speed > :up fsck then, since newfs will create millions of inodes I don't need > :which will cause fsck to run for ages... > : > :Andrzej Bialecki > > The problem should only be effected by the blocksize (-b) specification. > > Adjusting the bytes-per-inode (-i) specification in newfs should not > pose a problem. IOW now you say it's ok to use very high values of -i... ;-) Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 0:15:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA3A153FB for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:15:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19339; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:15:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA63777; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:15:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910080715.BAA63777@harmony.village.org> To: "Kenneth D. Merry" Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte), FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 1999 23:51:17 MDT." <199910080551.XAA99943@panzer.kdm.org> References: <199910080551.XAA99943@panzer.kdm.org> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 01:15:35 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199910080551.XAA99943@panzer.kdm.org> "Kenneth D. Merry" writes: : Nope. You've CAMified a driver, would you like to write it? :) I started with a CAMified driver and hacked it... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 0:18:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from anon.lcs.mit.edu (anon.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F65C15405 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 00:18:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from serge69@nym.alias.net) Date: 8 Oct 1999 07:18:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19991008071850.29521.qmail@nym.alias.net> From: Sergey Subject: Is there way to recover system from I/O lockup? To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello. It's relatively simple to force system in swap-in/out loop. The user can produce a lot of processes that use a lot of VM memory, so bringing system to unusable state, due to very big response time (hours). This is also achievable through active IO. I know about defense way - resource limiting, but I'm interested in other way. I do not want to limit someone until this situation. But in case of it, I want be able to enter such system using ssh and "killall" offending processes. Technically speaking, I do not want performance degradation for some running processes and processes forked from them. I do not want to allow swap-out data of this processes and want them to get prioritized IO? (CPU priority, I can get using rtprio. Isn't it?) Is it possible to implement such behavior? Is there any way configure system such way without kernel modification? with kernel modifications? What parts of kernel should I see for it? Thanks in advance, Sergey. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 1:11:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mrelay.jrc.it (mrelay.jrc.it [139.191.1.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2868014F27 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick.hibma@jrc.it) Received: from elect8 (elect8.jrc.it [139.191.71.152]) by mrelay.jrc.it (LMC5692) with ESMTP id KAA22283; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:09:49 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:09:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8 Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: "Kenneth D. Merry" Cc: Warner Losh , Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: CAM-ification - documentation In-Reply-To: <199910080551.XAA99943@panzer.kdm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While on the topic: What documentation is there for CAM? I've found the following, but would like to know whether there is more - CAM specification (at Digital?) - justin's docu on freefall. Especially some help on the topic of polling would be appreciated. Otherwise I'll have to resort to figuring out how to do things in interrupt context, and that is going to be dirty. Nick > Warner Losh wrote... > > In message <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> Wilko Bulte writes: > > : How difficult would CAMifying a driver be? > > > > Speaking of which, has a "How to CAMify a driver" doc been written? > > Nope. You've CAMified a driver, would you like to write it? :) > > Ken > -- ISIS/STA, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, 21020 Ispra, Italy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 1:14:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BDE14F27 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA01045; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:14:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:14:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Nick Hibma Cc: "Kenneth D. Merry" , Warner Losh , Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CAM-ification - documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There's a CAM ANSI spec at http://www.t10.org. But the lack of implementatio for FreeBSD docs is probably the biggest missing piece for FreeBSD's implementation. On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Nick Hibma wrote: > > While on the topic: What documentation is there for CAM? I've found the > following, but would like to know whether there is more > > - CAM specification (at Digital?) > - justin's docu on freefall. > > Especially some help on the topic of polling would be appreciated. > Otherwise I'll have to resort to figuring out how to do things in > interrupt context, and that is going to be dirty. > > Nick > > > Warner Losh wrote... > > > In message <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> Wilko Bulte writes: > > > : How difficult would CAMifying a driver be? > > > > > > Speaking of which, has a "How to CAMify a driver" doc been written? > > > > Nope. You've CAMified a driver, would you like to write it? :) > > > > Ken > > > > -- > ISIS/STA, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, 21020 Ispra, Italy > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 5:15:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.imp.ch (mail.imp.ch [157.161.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672C714D9D for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mb@imp.ch) Received: from mephisto.imp.ch (mb@mephisto.imp.ch [157.161.1.22]) by mail.imp.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05098; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:15:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (mb@localhost) by mephisto.imp.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13634; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:15:10 +0200 (MES) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:15:09 +0200 From: Martin Blapp To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: kbyanc@alcnet.com Subject: Re: Proposal for the kill-list (userland nfs) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > warnx("WARNING: path@server syntax is deprecated, use server:path"); > before line 667 of /usr/src/sbin/mount_nfs.c. But I don't see anywhere > where it differentiates between delimitors and path-components. It is > just a simple strchr() and the first @ or : it finds is assumed the be I've changed it already and I hope it will be committed to CURRENT soon. Have a look at : http://www.attic.ch/patches/MOUNTPATCH-PART-1 http://www.attic.ch/patches/MOUNTPATCH-PART-4 Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 6:23:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from oskar.nanoteq.co.za (oskar.nanoteq.co.za [196.37.91.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3343914F31 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rbezuide@oskar.nanoteq.co.za) Received: (from rbezuide@localhost) by oskar.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA08275 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:25:51 +0200 (SAT) From: Reinier Bezuidenhout Message-Id: <199910081325.PAA08275@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Subject: pcm sound delays To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:25:44 +0200 (SAT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi ... Im running 4.0-CURRENT of a few weeks ago, I've got a ESS1869 soundcard, which seems to be working reasonably well with the newpcm. What I am though experiencing is some delay in sound .... e.g. xgal (xgalaga) and a few other splications. The sound is not in sync with the application. When I quit/kill the application sound is sometimes still generated for quite a few second after the application has died. Anyone got any ideas what causes this and maybe how to fix it ??? Thanks Reinier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 7:12:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bomber.avantgo.com (ws1.avantgo.com [207.214.200.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2A71500B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott@avantgo.com) Received: from river ([10.0.128.30]) by bomber.avantgo.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id 192; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:06:55 -0700 Message-ID: <0edb01bf1197$014caf80$1e80000a@avantgo.com> From: "Scott Hess" To: , "Mike Smith" Cc: References: <199910080016.RAA02524@dingo.cdrom.com> Subject: Re: SMP + fxp0 wierdness Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:11:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote, in response to stevan@avantgo.com: > > We're running 3.3-REL on dual processor PII-450's, with a N440BX > > motherboard, using the onboard EtherExpress Pro (fxp) NIC and 512MB RAM. > > > > These machines are running custom software that excercises the disk, CPU > > and network quite heavily. The SMP machines seem to have both "fxp0: > > device timeout" problems, and spontaneous reboots. > > Could this be a problem with SMP + fxp combination? Any other thoughts > > or ideas? > > This is a known problem, insofar as it's been seen on a wide range of > systems. It's not SMP specific, but it does appear to be very sensitive > to your hardware configuration (eg. we were seeing it repeatedly in > combination with an ncr SCSI card, and when we switched to an Adaptec it > went away). Just a bit of additional info. We haven't yet seen the 'fxp0: device timeout' message on the machines that are running 3.3, even though at least one of the 3.3 machines used to throw many timeout messages under 3.1. On that machine, we were seeing 4 or 5 of the timeout messages per high-volume hour - until I dropped it back to a uniprocessor kernel, at which point those messages stopped completely. Also, excepting a single machine, the rebooting problem only seems to happen after around a week or runtime, and that period has been falling in proportion to the volume the machines are servicing (it used to take two weeks, and earlier almost a month). Thanks, scott To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 9: 9:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE6A1589F for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA03108; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:09:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:09:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910081609.JAA03108@apollo.backplane.com> To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> :> Adjusting the bytes-per-inode (-i) specification in newfs should not :> pose a problem. : :IOW now you say it's ok to use very high values of -i... ;-) : :Andrzej Bialecki No, I didn't say that. My recommended maximum is still 262144. Fsck should be reasonably fast with that number and the filesystem should still be able to maintain reasonable efficiency. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 9:10:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (blaubaer.kn-bremen.de [195.37.179.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C6A15137 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:10:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nox@saturn.kn-bremen.de) Received: from saturn.kn-bremen.de (uucp@localhost) by blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with UUCP id SAA32350; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:03:54 +0200 Received: (from nox@localhost) by saturn.kn-bremen.de (8.9.3/8.8.5) id SAA39070; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:00:08 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:00:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: Juergen Lock Message-Id: <199910081600.SAA39070@saturn.kn-bremen.de> To: asmodai@wxs.nl Subject: Re: A bike shed (any colour will do) on greener grass... X-Newsgroups: local.list.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <19991003133954.B24242@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <18238.938873650.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Organization: home Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <19991003133954.B24242@daemon.ninth-circle.org> you write: >On [19991002 20:18], Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@freebsd.org) wrote: >>And that brings me, as I promised earlier, to why I am not subscribed >>to -hackers: >> >>I un-subscribed from -hackers several years ago, because I could >>not keep up with the email load. Since then I have dropped off >>several other lists as well for the very same reason. > >The load itself might not be the burden if only the signal-to-noise >ration would be a lot better. A lot of the topics at hand should've been >made to questions. One maybe useful tip from a (mostly) lurker: turn your list email into news and read them with a decent threaded newsreader. I use inn and its mailpost script and read with trn, both in /usr/ports/news. Just thought i'd mention... -- Juergen Lock (remove dot foo from address to reply) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 9:22: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bomber.avantgo.com (ws1.avantgo.com [207.214.200.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4389114FC2; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:21:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sa-list@avantgo.com) Received: from avantgo.com ([10.0.128.109]) by bomber.avantgo.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id 110; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:16:38 -0700 Message-ID: <37FE1A5C.9170A987@avantgo.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:22:52 -0700 From: Stevan Arychuk Reply-To: sa-list@avantgo.com Organization: AvantGo Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SMP + fxp0 wierdness References: <199910080454.VAA06681@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thanks for your response David. Do you think the problem is isolated to just the onboard devices? Would a PCI NIC help or is it the entire N440BX board? Regards, Stevan Arychuk AvantGo Inc. stevan@avantgo.com David Greenman wrote: > > >We're running 3.3-REL on dual processor PII-450's, with a N440BX > >motherboard, using the onboard EtherExpress Pro (fxp) NIC and 512MB RAM. > > > >These machines are running custom software that excercises the disk, CPU > >and network quite heavily. The SMP machines seem to have both "fxp0: > >device timeout" problems, and spontaneous reboots. We were uable to get > >a working savecore until now, and have traced the reboots back to the > >fxp driver as well. Here are the debug outputs, and any custom changes > >to our kernel config. > > > >Could this be a problem with SMP + fxp combination? Any other thoughts > >or ideas? > > > >We've serached, and read, and searched all the FAQ's for both of these > >problems, and have pretty well come up empty. Suggestions for the next > >course of action? > > > >Thanks in advance for anyones help. > > There is some kind of hardware problem with the Intel N440BX motherboard > that is causing memory corruption during the DMA. This is the third nearly > identical report I've gotten about it. It does not appear to be a FreeBSD > bug and so far only occurs when using the N440BX. You might try messing with > the BIOS options and see if changing any of the DMA related settings will > make the problem go away...I'd be very interested in the results. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org > Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com > Pave the road of life with opportunities. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 9:34:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2CE115325 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:34:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20656; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:33:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA68159; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:32:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910081632.KAA68159@harmony.village.org> To: Reinier Bezuidenhout Subject: Re: pcm sound delays Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Oct 1999 15:25:44 +0200." <199910081325.PAA08275@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> References: <199910081325.PAA08275@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:32:55 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199910081325.PAA08275@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Reinier Bezuidenhout writes: : What I am though experiencing is some delay in sound .... e.g. xgal : (xgalaga) and a few other splications. The sound is not in sync with : the application. When I quit/kill the application sound is sometimes : still generated for quite a few second after the application has : died. : : Anyone got any ideas what causes this and maybe how to fix it ??? I've seen that all the time with xgalaga going back to when the es1370 driver was just a set of patches. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 9:44:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.numachi.com (numachi.numachi.com [198.175.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 974BC14EFA for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reichert@numachi.com) Received: (qmail 10539 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Oct 1999 16:44:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:44:06 -0400 From: Brian Reichert To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Josef Karthauser , Sergey Shkonda , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) Message-ID: <19991008124405.A10501@numachi.com> References: <19991006181004.T24928@florence.pavilion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Bill Fumerola on Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:02:48PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:02:48PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > > cdid Display the serial number of the cd using the method > > used by the cddb (http://www.cddb.org) project. > > > URLs end with a trailing slash. (http://www.cddb.org/) > FDDN end in a dot. (http://www.cddb.org./) > -- > - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - > - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - -- Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert reichert@numachi.com 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (781) 899-7484 x704 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 9:55:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423C4155F0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:55:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dragon.s@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA27018 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:55:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gra-mi13-05.ix.netcom.com(206.214.128.5) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026869; Fri Oct 8 11:54:25 1999 Message-ID: <37FE2031.DF16E119@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:47:45 -0400 From: Dan Diephouse X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Compaq Proliant 2500 file corruptions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My school has recently acquired a Compaq Proliant 2500 and we are trying to set up FreeBSD on it. I download the 3.3 kern and mfsroot disks and replaced the kernel with a custom one that had the IDA driver included in it. Everything installed fine. Then I started working on it again and whenever I'd cvsup or download ports the files would get corrupted. Unfortunately I do not have the machine here, but it is a dual Pentium Pro with 4.3 GB scsi disks, Thunderlan net card, and a ncr scsi controller. 1. I was wondering if anyone knew of any such problems, or what other info I could provide to help figure this out. 2. There are no panics or anything. I can't seem to find an isolated case to look at. Anyone have any idea how I would go about debugging this? 3. Would I be better off running the newer driver in current? I keep tabs with whats going on in the current list, I just need a somewhat stable machine. It's only going to get light usage. Thanks for any help. Sorry this is so vauge. I'd really like you to get a dmesg. Below is the kernel config.... Dan Diephouse machine "i386" cpu "I686_CPU" ident OWL maxusers 64 options MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation options INET #InterNETworking options FFS #Berkeley Fast Filesystem options FFS_ROOT #FFS usable as root device [keep this!] options MFS #Memory Filesystem options NFS #Network Filesystem options MSDOSFS #MSDOS Filesystem options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 Filesystem options PROCFS #Process filesystem options "COMPAT_43" #Compatible with BSD 4.3 [KEEP THIS!] options SCSI_DELAY=15000 #Be pessimistic about Joe SCSI device options UCONSOLE #Allow users to grab the console options FAILSAFE #Be conservative options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor options KTRACE #ktrace(1) syscall trace support options SYSVSHM #SYSV-style shared memory options SYSVMSG #SYSV-style message queues options SYSVSEM #SYSV-style semaphores options DDB options DDB_UNATTENDED config kernel root on wd0 # To make an SMP kernel, the next two are needed options SMP # Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel options APIC_IO # Symmetric (APIC) I/O # Optionally these may need tweaked, (defaults shown): #options NCPU=2 # number of CPUs #options NBUS=4 # number of busses #options NAPIC=1 # number of IO APICs #options NINTR=42 # number of INTs controller isa0 controller pnp0 # PnP support for ISA controller eisa0 controller pci0 # Floppy drives controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 # IDE controller and disks #options "CMD640" # work around CMD640 chip deficiency controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0 disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1 #controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 #disk wd2 at wdc1 drive 0 #disk wd3 at wdc1 drive 1 # ATAPI devices #options ATAPI #Enable ATAPI support for IDE bus #options ATAPI_STATIC #Don't do it as an LKM #device acd0 #IDE CD-ROM #device wfd0 #IDE Floppy (e.g. LS-120) # SCSI Controllers # A single entry for any of these controllers (ncr, ahb, ahc) is # sufficient for any number of installed devices. controller ncr0 # NCR/Symbios Logic controller ida0 at isa? bio irq ? vector idaintr disk id0 at ida0 drive 0 disk id1 at ida0 drive 1 disk id2 at ida0 drive 2 disk id3 at ida0 drive 3 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 10: 1:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [194.242.128.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDAC155F0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:01:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@florence.pavilion.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA61621; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:01:01 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:01:00 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Brian Reichert Cc: Bill Fumerola , Sergey Shkonda , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) Message-ID: <19991008180100.A61247@florence.pavilion.net> References: <19991006181004.T24928@florence.pavilion.net> <19991008124405.A10501@numachi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991008124405.A10501@numachi.com> X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, 24 The Old Steine, Brighton, BN1 1EL, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 12:44:06PM -0400, Brian Reichert wrote: > > > > URLs end with a trailing slash. (http://www.cddb.org/) > > > > FDDN end in a dot. (http://www.cddb.org./) > Not in a URL, or in an email address :) Joe -- Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today? Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 11:32:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1608215308 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:32:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA03972; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:32:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:32:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910081832.LAA03972@apollo.backplane.com> To: Dan Diephouse Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compaq Proliant 2500 file corruptions References: <37FE2031.DF16E119@ix.netcom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :1. I was wondering if anyone knew of any such problems, or what other :info I could provide to help figure this out. :2. There are no panics or anything. I can't seem to find an isolated :case to look at. Anyone have any idea how I would go about debugging :this? :3. Would I be better off running the newer driver in current? I keep :tabs with whats going on in the current list, I just need a somewhat :stable machine. It's only going to get light usage. : :Thanks for any help. Sorry this is so vauge. I'd really like you to :get a dmesg. Below is the kernel config.... The very first think I would do is look at the disklabel for the drive and make sure that none of the offset/sizes overlap (except for the 'c' whole-disk partition, of course). e.g. take the offset, add the size, make sure the result is the offset for the next partition, and repeat. The final offset+size should of course not exceed the size of the disk. Partitions can slice up the disk out of order, but if they overlap (except for c) you will get file corruption. Also look for error messages in /var/log/messages. # disklabel da0 (or in your case perhaps wd0) 8 partitions: # size offset fstype [fsize bsize bps/cpg] a: 262144 0 4.2BSD 1024 8192 16 # (Cyl. 0 - 16*) b: 1048576 262144 swap # (Cyl. 16*- 81*) c: 4192902 0 unused 0 0 # (Cyl. 0 - 260*) d: 262144 1310720 4.2BSD 1024 8192 16 # (Cyl. 81*- 97*) e: 262144 1572864 4.2BSD 1024 8192 16 # (Cyl. 97*- 114*) f: 2097152 1835008 4.2BSD 1024 8192 16 # (Cyl. 114*- 244*) g: 260742 3932160 4.2BSD 1024 8192 16 # (Cyl. 244*- 260*) -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 11:33:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6864E14A29 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA92201; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:33:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199910081833.LAA92201@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: 3.3-STABLE panic in m_copym In-Reply-To: <25159.939366752@verdi.nethelp.no> from "sthaug@nethelp.no" at "Oct 8, 1999 09:12:32 am" To: sthaug@nethelp.no Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG sthaug@nethelp.no writes: > I have a Compaq Proliant 3000 (2 x PII-333) running 3.3-STABLE which has > crashed several times with the following backtrace: > > #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:285 > #1 0xc0144299 in panic (fmt=0xc023eb04 "m_copym") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:446 > #2 0xc015ac7e in m_copym (m=0xc141ae80, off0=10788, len=1216, wait=1) at ../../kern/uipc_mbuf.c:435 > #3 0xc019286a in tcp_output (tp=0xd0be8960) at ../../netinet/tcp_output.c:505 > #4 0xc0194106 in tcp_usr_send (so=0xd0ae9640, flags=0, m=0xc1420680, nam=0x0, control=0x0, p=0xd0e95b20) at ../../netinet/tcp_usrreq.c:395 > #5 0xc015c4b2 in sosend (so=0xd0ae9640, addr=0x0, uio=0xd0ee5f10, top=0xc1420680, control=0x0, flags=0, p=0xd0e95b20) > at ../../kern/uipc_socket.c:530 > #6 0xc01525dc in soo_write (fp=0xc210c600, uio=0xd0ee5f10, cred=0xc1fce600, flags=0) at ../../kern/sys_socket.c:82 > #7 0xc014f46a in dofilewrite (p=0xd0e95b20, fp=0xc210c600, fd=7, buf=0x806f0f4, nbyte=8192, offset=-1, flags=0) > at ../../kern/sys_generic.c:363 > #8 0xc014f373 in write (p=0xd0e95b20, uap=0xd0ee5f94) at ../../kern/sys_generic.c:298 > #9 0xc021f39b in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = -1078001625, tf_edi = 671806342, tf_esi = 7, tf_ebp = -1077949676, > tf_isp = -789684252, tf_ebx = 0, tf_edx = 434759, tf_ecx = 0, tf_eax = 4, tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 2, tf_eip = 134533700, tf_cs = 31, > tf_eflags = 518, tf_esp = -1077949700, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:1100 > #10 0xc020b2ac in Xint0x80_syscall () > > The panic is the following loop in m_copym: > > while (off > 0) { > if (m == 0) > panic("m_copym"); > if (off < m->m_len) > break; > off -= m->m_len; > m = m->m_next; > } > > so it seems to be running off the end of the mbuf chain before having > verified the whole length. Following the m_next pointers, starting with > the mbuf pointer from the calling routine, I get a total of 5 mbufs in > this chain, with the following lengths: > > 0xc141ae80 2048 > 0xc13fef80 2008 > 0xc1446e00 2048 > 0xc147fe80 872 > 0xc1420680 1216 This may or may not be helpful, but.. Packet mbuf's contain redundant information: the header mbuf contains the total length (m->m_pkthdr.len), which must be equal to the sum of the lengths of the individual mbuf's in the chain (m->m_len). I think these numbers getting out of sync is a common source of bugs. For example, code that builds an mbuf chain by concatenating mbuf's forgets to update the m->m_pkthdr.len field. You might look at where the packet originated, ie in dofilewrite() (?) -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 11:37:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C452414A25 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29889 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:56:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: read/write atomic? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just spent a bit of time talking to the Linux Alan Cox and I was suprised to find out that it seems that Linux doesn't garantee read/write atomicity. It sounded somewhat strange however, it dawned on me that one should be using advisory locks instead of depending on that feature. Removing those locks would simplify a lot of the locking code, and probably aid in performance quite a bit. I know Matt Dillon wanted to implement byterange I/O locks to handle this, but it seems unnessesary in terms of complexity and performance gains. I know some people will be eager to just spout "Linux is broken" but what i'm really looking for is a situation where this would cause problems. Can anyone comment on this or reference a thread that has gone over this issue? thanks, -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|alfred@freebsd.org] Wintelcom systems administrator and programmer - http://www.wintelcom.net/ [bright@wintelcom.net] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 11:41:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3746C152C7; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:41:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00799; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910081833.LAA00799@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: sa-list@avantgo.com Cc: dg@root.com, FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SMP + fxp0 wierdness In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:22:52 PDT." <37FE1A5C.9170A987@avantgo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 11:33:30 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Thanks for your response David. > > Do you think the problem is isolated to just the onboard devices? Would > a PCI NIC help or is it the entire N440BX board? We've seen these symptoms on non-Intel boards. (eg. ASUS P2L, P2B). -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 11:55:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C8414DC7 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA03648; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:54:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199910081854.MAA03648@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: CAM-ification - documentation In-Reply-To: from Nick Hibma at "Oct 8, 1999 10:09:49 am" To: nick.hibma@jrc.it (Nick Hibma) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:54:54 -0600 (MDT) Cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh), wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte), FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ reply moved the bottom... ] Nick Hibma wrote... > > Warner Losh wrote... > > > In message <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> Wilko Bulte writes: > > > : How difficult would CAMifying a driver be? > > > > > > Speaking of which, has a "How to CAMify a driver" doc been written? > > > > Nope. You've CAMified a driver, would you like to write it? :) > > > > Ken > > > > While on the topic: What documentation is there for CAM? I've found the > following, but would like to know whether there is more > > - CAM specification (at Digital?) www.t10.org, as Matt pointed out. FreeBSD/CAM is mostly CAM-2, with some CAM-3 thrown in. > - justin's docu on freefall. > > Especially some help on the topic of polling would be appreciated. > Otherwise I'll have to resort to figuring out how to do things in > interrupt context, and that is going to be dirty. Well, first off, are you talking about polling for completion in a peripheral driver or a SIM/HBA driver? If you're looking to poll for CCB completion in a peripheral driver, there's already xpt_polled_action() and an example of how to use it in dadump() in scsi_da.c. If you're talking about polling for transaction completion in a device driver, my guess is that you're going to have to do things in an interrupt context. (Unless you use a kernel process to do it.) The thing to remember is that when you get CCBs down in a CAM device driver, it may well be in an interrupt context. You have to be able to deal with that. My guess is that it might be easiest to just use a timeout handler to poll the device for completion every so often. A kernel process may also be an option, depending on how nasty the device is. I would recommend talking to Justin about it. I'm sure he'll be glad to give you some recommendations on how to proceed. He's also not the only one who knows about this sort of stuff. By now, Matt Jacob has a reasonable amount of experience with CAM drivers and he may also be able to give you some advice. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 11:59:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C95E14DC7 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:59:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA04227; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:59:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:59:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <199910081859.LAA04227@apollo.backplane.com> To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: read/write atomic? References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :I just spent a bit of time talking to the Linux Alan Cox and I :was suprised to find out that it seems that Linux doesn't :garantee read/write atomicity. : :It sounded somewhat strange however, it dawned on me that one should :be using advisory locks instead of depending on that feature. : :Removing those locks would simplify a lot of the locking code, :and probably aid in performance quite a bit. I know Matt Dillon :wanted to implement byterange I/O locks to handle this, but it :seems unnessesary in terms of complexity and performance gains. : :I know some people will be eager to just spout "Linux is broken" :but what i'm really looking for is a situation where this would :cause problems. : :Can anyone comment on this or reference a thread that has :gone over this issue? : :thanks, :-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|alfred@freebsd.org] I would love to see the guarentee go away, at least for anything not O_APPEND. O_APPEND writes would probably still have to be exclusively locked. Such a change would clean up many of the deadlock problems with the current code and would also drastically improve parallel I/O performance on the same file (because I/O requests whos data is cached in memory would not have to block waiting for an I/O request whos data must be obtained from the disk). BUT! And this is a big but... I/O atomicy has been 'standard' in UNIX for a very long time. If we were to make such a change, we would no longer be in conformance with the UNIX spec. This is why it hasn't been done and why it probably will not be done in the near future. Simply put, Linux is doing it wrong. On the otherhand, way back then mmap() was not used to the degree that it is used today, and with mmap() you already lose I/O atomicy (you lose it even between mmap() and discrete I/O, not just mmap-to-mmap). It would be great if someone could ram such a change through the standards committees. Alternatively Linux could become enough of a defacto standard that we could ignore the standards committee. Barring that, the only solution available to us to increase performance is to implement temporary byte-ranged locks within the kernel to allow the I/O to be parallelized. It isn't necessarily as bad as you think... support for such locks already exists in order to deal with POSIX locks, but it would certainly be easier if we didn't have to mess with it at all. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 12:12:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu [128.226.1.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE1214EB0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu) Received: from sol.cs.binghamton.edu (cs1-gw.cs.binghamton.edu [128.226.171.72]) by bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA11479 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:57:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Zhihui Zhang To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Questions regarding memory usage Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Does FreeBSD have the following features: (1) Limit the physical memory it uses even if the machine has larger memory without having to pull out the memory chip physically. This should be done at the boot time. (2) Tell if a particular program has ever been swapped out. Any help is appreicated. -------------------------------------------------- Zhihui Zhang. Please visit http://www.freebsd.org -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 12:17:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from front7.grolier.fr (front7.grolier.fr [194.158.96.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4741614EB0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from groudier@club-internet.fr) Received: from localhost (ppp-107-94.villette.club-internet.fr [194.158.107.94]) by front7.grolier.fr (8.9.3/No_Relay+No_Spam_MGC990224) with SMTP id VAA28765; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:17:24 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:39:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Gerard Roudier X-Sender: groudier@localhost To: Warner Losh Cc: Wilko Bulte , "Kenneth D. Merry" , FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Turbochannel based Alpha, quickie question In-Reply-To: <199910080548.XAA63504@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <199910072201.AAA43983@yedi.iaf.nl> Wilko Bulte writes: > : How difficult would CAMifying a driver be? >=20 > Speaking of which, has a "How to CAMify a driver" doc been written? In my experience, X3T10/990D and friends + ahc_*.c + aic7xxx.c + cam/*.h (+ cam/*.c, cam/scsi/*, etc ... if your are curious) are better materials for such an operation that any incomplete and/or unmaintained documentation (when existing such kind of documentations have been generally just written once forever).=20 Just my 0.02 euro. G=E9rard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 12:18: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D7D14FEF for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:17:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01047; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:10:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910081910.MAA01047@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Zhihui Zhang Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Questions regarding memory usage In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 1999 14:57:41 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:10:25 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Does FreeBSD have the following features: > > (1) Limit the physical memory it uses even if the machine has larger > memory without having to pull out the memory chip physically. This should > be done at the boot time. In -current and (I think) -stable, you can set the 'hw.physmem' tunable in the loader. See 'help set tunables' in the loader, or read /boot/loader.help. > (2) Tell if a particular program has ever been swapped out. There is no trivial way to determine this, no. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 12:34:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D77414E0B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dragon.s@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA18863; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:33:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gra-mi13-05.ix.netcom.com(206.214.128.5) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018636; Fri Oct 8 14:32:49 1999 Message-ID: <37FE4550.2492421C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:26:08 -0400 From: Dan Diephouse X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Compaq Proliant 2500 file corruptions References: <37FE2031.DF16E119@ix.netcom.com> <199910081832.LAA03972@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I brought the computer home with me. Below is some of the system information. I'm still stumped as to what to next...The disklabel all matches up correctly. Anyone have any more ideas? Thanks Again -- Dan Diephouse disklabel wd0 8 partitions: # size offset fstype [fsize bsize bps/cpg] a: 153600 0 4.2BSD 1024 8192 16 # (Cyl. 0 - 9*) b: 512000 153600 swap # (Cyl. 9*- 41*) c: 16354170 0 unused 0 0 # (Cyl. 0 - 1017) e: 204800 665600 4.2BSD 1024 8192 16 # (Cyl. 41*- 54*) f: 15483770 870400 4.2BSD 1024 8192 16 # (Cyl. 54*- 1017*) (This was trying to boot non-smp) Preloaded elf kernel "kernel.old" at 0xc037b000. Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled eisa0: Probing for devices on the EISA bus Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: Correcting Natoma config for non-SMP chip0: rev 0x02 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x01 on pci0.13.0 chip2: rev 0x01 on pci0.15.0 chip3: rev 0x07 on pci0.20.0 Probing for devices on PCI bus 1: vga0: rev 0x22 int a irq 255 on pci1.6.0 tl0: rev 0x10 int a irq 10 on pci1.7.0 tl0: Ethernet address: 00:80:5f:a6:29:6f tl0: autoneg not complete, no carrier ncr0: rev 0x03 int a irq 11 on pci1.9.0 xl0: <3Com 3c905B-TX Fast Etherlink XL> rev 0x24 int a irq 5 on pci1.13.0 xl0: Ethernet address: 00:10:4b:66:b4:3b xl0: autoneg complete, link status good (half-duplex, 100Mbps) Probing for devices on PCI bus 2: ida0: rev 0x02 int a irq 9 on pci2.0.0 ida0: drvs=2 firm_rev=1.36 ida0: unit 0 (id0): id0: 8024MB (16434495 total sec), 1023 cyl, 255 head, 63 sec, bytes/sec 512 ida0: unit 1 (id1): id1: 4257MB (8719950 total sec), 953 cyl, 183 head, 50 sec, bytes/sec 512 ida: wdc vector stealing on (mode = always, boot major = 0) Probing for PnP devices: Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 on isa sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> atkbdc0 at 0x60-0x6f on motherboard Matthew Dillon wrote: > :1. I was wondering if anyone knew of any such problems, or what other > :info I could provide to help figure this out. > :2. There are no panics or anything. I can't seem to find an isolated > :case to look at. Anyone have any idea how I would go about debugging > :this? > :3. Would I be better off running the newer driver in current? I keep > :tabs with whats going on in the current list, I just need a somewhat > :stable machine. It's only going to get light usage. > : > :Thanks for any help. Sorry this is so vauge. I'd really like you to > :get a dmesg. Below is the kernel config.... > > The very first think I would do is look at the disklabel for the drive > and make sure that none of the offset/sizes overlap (except for the > 'c' whole-disk partition, of course). > > e.g. take the offset, add the size, make sure the result is the offset > for the next partition, and repeat. The final offset+size should of course > not exceed the size of the disk. Partitions can slice up the disk > out of order, but if they overlap (except for c) you will get file > corruption. > > Also look for error messages in /var/log/messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 12:39:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (dynamic-78.max1-du-ws.dialnetwork.pavilion.co.uk [212.74.8.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7A014E0B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:39:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03140; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:07:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@lan.awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00496; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:05:48 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910071705.SAA00496@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: wsanchez@apple.com Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Joe Abley , Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:24:14 PDT." <199910070024.RAA26518@scv3.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:05:48 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > | Please, don't give me this crap. "Removable media" is a very > | well-defined terminology. > > Only in screw-your-device-into-the-machine land. > > We're have to consider hot-swappable devices, including hard disks > and floppies and video cameras and new-uber-whatzit-media. The admin has to ``mount -u'' it local - it should default to foreign. > -Fred > > > -- > Wilfredo Sanchez, wsanchez@apple.com > Apple Computer, Inc., Core Operating Systems / BSD > Technical Lead, Darwin Project > 1 Infinite Loop, 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 12:40: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (dynamic-78.max1-du-ws.dialnetwork.pavilion.co.uk [212.74.8.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E3B157F0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:39:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03155; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:10:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@lan.awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00480; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:04:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910071704.SAA00480@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: wsanchez@apple.com, Matthew Dillon , Joe Abley , Conrad Minshall , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:41:48 +0900." <37FC40AC.2205C7DF@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:04:08 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [.....] > As I pointed out, the distinction is one of intent on the part of > the admin. Absolutely. > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) [.....] -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 12:42:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0C215160 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11877; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:42:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id OAA10640; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:42:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id OAA14853; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:42:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:42:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199910081942.OAA14853@free.pcs> To: dragon.s@ix.netcom.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Compaq Proliant 2500 file corruptions X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-hackers In-Reply-To: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article you write: >My school has recently acquired a Compaq Proliant 2500 and we are trying >to set up FreeBSD on it. I download the 3.3 kern and mfsroot disks and >replaced the kernel with a custom one that had the IDA driver included >in it. Everything installed fine. Then I started working on it again >and >whenever I'd cvsup or download ports the files would get corrupted. Let me guess, the symptom is that blocks of zeros are scattered randomly throughout the file? If this is the case, the IDA driver in 3.3 is the culprit. >3. Would I be better off running the newer driver in current? I keep >tabs with whats going on in the current list, I just need a somewhat >stable machine. It's only going to get light usage. This probably is one solution. Another is to try a couple of patches to see if they fix the problem; attached is some code that might help. -- Jonathan Index: ida.c =================================================================== RCS file: /ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/Attic/ida.c,v retrieving revision 1.1.2.3 diff -u -r1.1.2.3 ida.c --- ida.c 1999/08/29 16:07:18 1.1.2.3 +++ ida.c 1999/10/08 19:41:57 @@ -1206,7 +1206,8 @@ if (PCI_CONTROLLER(ida)) { qcbp->hdr.priority = 0x00; - qcbp->hdr.flags = 0x24; + qcbp->hdr.flags = + (sizeof(struct ida_req) + sizeof(struct ida_sgb) * IDA_MAX_SGLEN) >> } else { qcbp->hdr.priority = IDA_DEF_PRIORITY; qcbp->hdr.flags = 0x10; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 12:43:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.numachi.com (numachi.numachi.com [198.175.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 68A11152FC for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:43:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reichert@numachi.com) Received: (qmail 12133 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Oct 1999 19:43:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:43:20 -0400 From: Brian Reichert To: Juergen Lock Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A bike shed (any colour will do) on greener grass... Message-ID: <19991008154320.E10501@numachi.com> References: <18238.938873650.1@critter.freebsd.dk> <19991003133954.B24242@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <199910081600.SAA39070@saturn.kn-bremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199910081600.SAA39070@saturn.kn-bremen.de>; from Juergen Lock on Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:00:08PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:00:08PM +0200, Juergen Lock wrote: > One maybe useful tip from a (mostly) lurker: turn your list email > into news and read them with a decent threaded newsreader. I use > inn and its mailpost script and read with trn, both in > /usr/ports/news. I suggest a threaded mail reader. I use mutt. > Just thought i'd mention... > -- > Juergen Lock > (remove dot foo from address to reply) -- Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert reichert@numachi.com 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (781) 899-7484 x704 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 13:16:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DA714A00 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 727E942A0; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F1649C90; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:17:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Brian Reichert , Bill Fumerola , Sergey Shkonda , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) In-Reply-To: <19991008180100.A61247@florence.pavilion.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Josef Karthauser wrote: :On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 12:44:06PM -0400, Brian Reichert wrote: :> > :> > URLs end with a trailing slash. (http://www.cddb.org/) :> > :> :> FDDN end in a dot. (http://www.cddb.org./) :> : :Not in a URL, or in an email address :) FQDNs always terminate with a dot. Even in a URL or mail address. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 13:37: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AB014A0D for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA76961; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:36:47 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:36:47 -0500 From: Dan Nelson To: Mike Smith Cc: Zhihui Zhang , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Questions regarding memory usage Message-ID: <19991008153647.A76552@dan.emsphone.com> References: <199910081910.MAA01047@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910081910.MAA01047@dingo.cdrom.com> X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the last episode (Oct 08), Mike Smith said: > > > > Does FreeBSD have the following features: > > > > (1) Limit the physical memory it uses even if the machine has larger > > memory without having to pull out the memory chip physically. This should > > be done at the boot time. > > In -current and (I think) -stable, you can set the 'hw.physmem' tunable > in the loader. See 'help set tunables' in the loader, or read > /boot/loader.help. > > > (2) Tell if a particular program has ever been swapped out. > > There is no trivial way to determine this, no. > The getrusage() function returns a structure with the follwing field in it: ru_nswap the number of times a process was swapped out of main memory. Would this do the trick? It only works for yourself or your child processes though. -- Dan Nelson dnelson@emsphone.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 13:51:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cs.rice.edu (cs.rice.edu [128.42.1.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FC514D29; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aron@cs.rice.edu) Received: (from aron@localhost) by cs.rice.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA25028; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:51:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Mohit Aron Message-Id: <199910082051.PAA25028@cs.rice.edu> Subject: sbappend() is not scalable To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:51:29 -0500 (CDT) Cc: tech-net@netbsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I recently did some experiments with TCP over a high b/w-delay path and found a scalability problem in sbappend(). The experimental setup consisted of a 100Mbps network with a round-trip delay of 100ms. Under this situation, FreeBSD's TCP version is incapable of attaining more than 65 Mbps on a 300MHz Pentium II - even without slow-start. I tracked down the problem to sbappend() - the routine that appends user data into the socket buffers for network transmission. Every time a TCP ACK acknowledges some data, space is created in the socket buffer that permits more data to be appended. Unfortunately, the implementation does not maintain a pointer to the end of the list of mbufs in the socket buffer. Thus each time any data is added, the whole list of mbufs is traversed to reach the very end where the data is added. Since the b/w-delay product is large, there can be about 600 mbufs in the socket buffer waiting to be acknowledged. Thus upon every ACK, about 600 mbufs are traversed causing the TCP sender to run out of CPU. The problem is not limited only to high b/w networks - it is also present in long latency paths (satellite links). Thus a server transferring a large file over a satellite link can spend lot of CPU due to the above problem. Hope the problem shall be fixed in future releases, - Mohit To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 14:17:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from trooper.velocet.net (trooper.velocet.net [216.126.82.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F851582A for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:17:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dgilbert@trooper.velocet.net) Received: (from dgilbert@localhost) by trooper.velocet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA27048; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:17:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dgilbert) From: David Gilbert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14334.24410.547615.160531@trooper.velocet.net> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:17:14 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: netbooting on fxp0? X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm somewhat aware that we have netboot code that understands 3com 3c509s and nc8390's. Last I checked, one had to burn a boot ROM for these cards and they were 10Mb. The current batch of IBM etherjets (probe as fxp0) have dhcp-enabled boot ROMs built into them. What is required to support these, or has someone worked on this already. 100Mb cards could make a decent diskless workstation/server. Dave. -- ============================================================================ |David Gilbert, Velocet Communications. | Two things can only be | |Mail: dgilbert@velocet.net | equal if and only if they | |http://www.velocet.net/~dgilbert | are precisely opposite. | =========================================================GLO================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 14:35:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6DB15900 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:35:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrad@apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26917 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv1.apple.com (scv1.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 08 Oct 1999 14:35:40 -0700 Received: from [17.202.43.185] (wa.apple.com [17.202.43.185]) by scv1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15457; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: conrad@mail.apple.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199910081859.LAA04227@apollo.backplane.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:35:24 -0700 To: Matthew Dillon From: Conrad Minshall Subject: Re: read/write atomic? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It would be great if someone could ram such a change through the standards > committees. The changes nowadays are coming via "The Austin Group". See http://www.opengroup.org/austin/ and associated mailing list. >Alternatively Linux could become enough of a defacto standard > that we could ignore the standards committee. Barring that, the only > solution available to us to increase performance is to implement temporary > byte-ranged locks within the kernel to allow the I/O to be parallelized. > It isn't necessarily as bad as you think... support for such locks > already exists in order to deal with POSIX locks, but it would certainly > be easier if we didn't have to mess with it at all. Adding more reliance on the POSIX locks works fine if that implementation is extended to include the common filesystems... in particular NFS file locking seems needed. A footnote is ensuring the deadlock detection code finds deadlocks which span multiple filesystem types. BTW the NFS version 4 protocol includes byte range locking. Version 2 and 3 use a seperate (out-of-band) locking protocol. > Matthew Dillon > -- Conrad Minshall ... conrad@apple.com ... 408 974-2749 Apple Computer ... Mac OS X Core Operating Systems ... NFS/UDF/etc Alternative email address: rad@acm.org. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 15: 9:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freja.webgiro.com (freja.webgiro.com [212.209.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A00214DF3 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:09:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 788951925; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:09:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freja.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758BD49CF; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:09:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:09:26 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Matthew Dillon Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard FFS parameters In-Reply-To: <199910081609.JAA03108@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > :> > :> Adjusting the bytes-per-inode (-i) specification in newfs should not > :> pose a problem. > : > :IOW now you say it's ok to use very high values of -i... ;-) > : > :Andrzej Bialecki > > No, I didn't say that. My recommended maximum is still 262144. Fsck > should be reasonably fast with that number and the filesystem should > still be able to maintain reasonable efficiency. Ok, I can live with that, I guess. Thanks a lot for your help! Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 15:20: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDEA14DF3 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:20:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ambrisko@whistle.com) Received: from whistle.com (crab.whistle.com [207.76.205.112]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA28201; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ambrisko@localhost) by whistle.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA68029; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ambrisko) From: Doug Ambrisko Message-Id: <199910082217.PAA68029@whistle.com> Subject: Re: netbooting on fxp0? In-Reply-To: <14334.24410.547615.160531@trooper.velocet.net> from David Gilbert at "Oct 8, 99 05:17:14 pm" To: dgilbert@velocet.ca (David Gilbert) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL29 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Gilbert writes: | The current batch of IBM etherjets (probe as fxp0) have dhcp-enabled | boot ROMs built into them. What is required to support these, or has | someone worked on this already. 100Mb cards could make a decent | diskless workstation/server. Look at ports/net/etherboot. It supports fxp0 and booting FreeBSD ELF kernels as well as Linux and DOS. Doug A. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 15:32: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AF014F6B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01988; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199910082224.PAA01988@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: David Gilbert Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: netbooting on fxp0? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 1999 17:17:14 EDT." <14334.24410.547615.160531@trooper.velocet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:24:21 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm somewhat aware that we have netboot code that understands 3com > 3c509s and nc8390's. Last I checked, one had to burn a boot ROM for > these cards and they were 10Mb. > > The current batch of IBM etherjets (probe as fxp0) have dhcp-enabled > boot ROMs built into them. What is required to support these, or has > someone worked on this already. 100Mb cards could make a decent > diskless workstation/server. I'm working on this at the moment, since RedHat have managed to get Intel to release their PXE development kit under an almost-no-conditions license. If you (or anyone else) are interested in working on this, please contact me directly. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 16: 0:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68DA15280 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA15662 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20587 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20583 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:00:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac9.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:00:13 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: file system full Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG When running "strobe" (from the ports collection, it is a port scanner), I often or always get the message "file: table is full" many, many times. I have seen this under 2.2.6 through 4.0. What exactly is going wrong here and what should I do to fix it? Jamie -- Jamie Howard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 16:14: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (blaubaer.kn-bremen.de [195.37.179.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A7114FA1 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nox@saturn.kn-bremen.de) Received: from saturn.kn-bremen.de (uucp@localhost) by blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with UUCP id BAA09000; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:07:27 +0200 Received: (from nox@localhost) by saturn.kn-bremen.de (8.9.3/8.8.5) id BAA52472; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:11:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: Juergen Lock Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:11:28 +0200 To: Brian Reichert Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A bike shed (any colour will do) on greener grass... Message-ID: <19991009011128.A52219@saturn.kn-bremen.de> References: <18238.938873650.1@critter.freebsd.dk> <19991003133954.B24242@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <199910081600.SAA39070@saturn.kn-bremen.de> <19991008154320.E10501@numachi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <19991008154320.E10501@numachi.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 03:43:20PM -0400, Brian Reichert wrote: > On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:00:08PM +0200, Juergen Lock wrote: > > One maybe useful tip from a (mostly) lurker: turn your list email > > into news and read them with a decent threaded newsreader. I use > > inn and its mailpost script and read with trn, both in > > /usr/ports/news. > > I suggest a threaded mail reader. I use mutt. Yeah mutt's threading is certainly an improvement... (and as you can see I'm using it myself too) But it still can't beat trn! :) Regards, -- Juergen Lock (remove dot foo from address to reply) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 16:14:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 578FA14FA1 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27828 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21032 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21028 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:14:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac9.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:14:17 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: KLDs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Slashdot, in a discussion regarding QNX, someone described it with the following: Under QNX, if your driver crashes, the kernel just restarts it. After reading it, I became more interested in KLDs. My only prior experiece was installing the Linux KLD and that was done by a port. Anyway, in an effort to learn, I decided to KLD-ify EXT2FS support. It took about 20 minutes and works great, but I still do not know how KLDs work. :) (I submitted the patch in kern/14217, if someone could look at it, that would be swell. I've been able to mount, read, write and umount without any problems) I also managed to get IPX KLD-ified in about 15 minutes, I can load it and now NCP loads but I have no way to test it. It also panics the kernel on unload. Anyway, back to the point, if it is this so simple (is it?), how much of the kernel can be KLDs? It would be interesting to see a kernel so small that all it had was KLD support in it and everything else was a module. I could upgrade my TCP/IP stack or filesystem code without a reboot. Imagine the uptime? Has anyone else thought about this? Is this a good idea? Is this a bad idea? How fundamentally different would this be from a microkernel? Could things be done in such a way that like QNX, it can kill and restart a misbehaving driver? What other cool things can be done? Thanks, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 16:26:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F1A14FA1 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:26:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([216.62.157.60]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FJB00CXG544CP@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:26:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02815; Fri, 08 Oct 1999 18:25:50 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) X-URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 18:25:45 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: file system full In-reply-to: To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <19991008182545.W86678@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT (i386) References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 08, 1999, James Howard wrote: > When running "strobe" (from the ports collection, it is a port scanner), I > often or always get the message "file: table is full" many, many times. > I have seen this under 2.2.6 through 4.0. What exactly is going wrong > here and what should I do to fix it? Too many open file descriptors. This has nothing to do with the file system. -- |Chris Costello |Never lick a gift horse in the mouth. `------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 18: 9:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C249815351 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:09:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 18486 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Oct 1999 01:09:46 -0000 Date: 8 Oct 1999 18:09:46 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:09:46 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Surplus 3.2-RELEASE cds Message-ID: <19991008180946.A18345@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello all, I have, piled around my desk, a little over 1000 copies of FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE. Of course I've never really been fond of cubicles and dont really need to make a cube out of all these boxes so I need to get rid of them :) If you are part of an organization that could use FreeBSD 3.2-R discs in bulk please email me and let me know. The discs come in boxes of 52 each. Suitable uses for these would be giving out at users groups, ploping on the desks of developers that would make use of it, stocking local library shelves, and giving away at relavent trade shows. If at all possible it would be great to squeeze as much publicity as possible out of these events. Doing things like having a info sheet to hand out a long with the discs that explains what FreeBSD is and why it rocks, will make giving the discs out a worthwhile exercise. Please contact me if you think you have a worthy cause. As always it's great if you can pay for the shipping on these but we won't turn anyone away due to not being able to (anyone in the US that is). -Bill -- -=| --- B i l l S w i n g l e --- http://www.dub.net/ -=| unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| Different all twisty a of in maze are you, passages little To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 18:46:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bursa05.emperors.net (bursa05.emperors.net [206.109.102.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4362614E09 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cucu@cuneydi.com) Received: from h432436slap ([206.109.102.140]) by bursa05.emperors.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA24938; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:46:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cucu@cuneydi.com) From: "cucu" To: "Jonathan Lemon" , , Subject: RE: Compaq Proliant 2500 file corruptions Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:50:17 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <199910081942.OAA14853@free.pcs> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just to provide some feedback, I was having the exact problem and this patch appears to resolved it. I CVSUP late afternoon, and make world with no problem on CPQ 1600 PII450 with Smart 2P controller. Thanks cuneyt > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jonathan Lemon > Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 2:43 PM > To: dragon.s@ix.netcom.com; hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Compaq Proliant 2500 file corruptions > > > In article > you write: > >My school has recently acquired a Compaq Proliant 2500 and we are trying > >to set up FreeBSD on it. I download the 3.3 kern and mfsroot disks and > >replaced the kernel with a custom one that had the IDA driver included > >in it. Everything installed fine. Then I started working on it again > >and > >whenever I'd cvsup or download ports the files would get corrupted. > > Let me guess, the symptom is that blocks of zeros are scattered > randomly throughout the file? If this is the case, the IDA driver > in 3.3 is the culprit. > > > >3. Would I be better off running the newer driver in current? I keep > >tabs with whats going on in the current list, I just need a somewhat > >stable machine. It's only going to get light usage. > > This probably is one solution. Another is to try a couple of patches > to see if they fix the problem; attached is some code that might help. > -- > Jonathan > > > Index: ida.c > =================================================================== > RCS file: /ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/Attic/ida.c,v > retrieving revision 1.1.2.3 > diff -u -r1.1.2.3 ida.c > --- ida.c 1999/08/29 16:07:18 1.1.2.3 > +++ ida.c 1999/10/08 19:41:57 > @@ -1206,7 +1206,8 @@ > > if (PCI_CONTROLLER(ida)) { > qcbp->hdr.priority = 0x00; > - qcbp->hdr.flags = 0x24; > + qcbp->hdr.flags = > + (sizeof(struct ida_req) + sizeof(struct ida_sgb) * > IDA_MAX_SGLEN) >> > } else { > qcbp->hdr.priority = IDA_DEF_PRIORITY; > qcbp->hdr.flags = 0x10; > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 20:14:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CD414FD4 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:14:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Scm486@aol.com) Received: from Scm486@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 2IIQXEHgm_ (3973); Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:11:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Scm486@aol.com Message-ID: <0.98d894ca.25300c4c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:11:08 EDT Subject: Re: pcm sound delays To: rbezuide@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 27 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have an ESS1869 also and it has always had sound delays. Im currently using 3.3 upgrade from 3.1 and it has always happened. MP3's and anything with sound, always chocks. I think it has to do with with DMA. Sam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 8 23:23:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B44158DB for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:23:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21291; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA16951; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16946; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:22:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac9.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:22:19 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Chris Costello Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: file system full In-Reply-To: <19991008182545.W86678@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > Too many open file descriptors. This has nothing to do with > the file system. Is there anyway this can be gotten around? A friend has a mail server that will spontaneously do this then crash. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 0:30:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (dynamic-93.max1-du-ws.dialnetwork.pavilion.co.uk [212.74.8.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EE9158FD for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00325; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:30:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@lan.awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02474; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:19:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910090119.CAA02474@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Matthew Dillon Cc: wsanchez@apple.com, Pat Dirks , Alban Hertroys , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:04:40 PDT." <199910071804.LAA95956@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 02:19:24 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [.....] > Revisiting security now... > > A provision for public-key encryption of the data held on the disk (as > well as the id itself) would be useful. Just encrypting the ID alone > would not be useful. > > The distinction would then shift away from whether the media is removable > or not (it would no longer matter as much) and instead assume that no > unencrypted data can ever be trusted and encrypted data can be trusted > insofar as the ID can be trusted. [.....] Too hard ! I would have thought the only practical way would be to digitally sign the contents of the disk and then to validate the signature before mount time. IMHO this is nothing to do with the ability to mount removable media. If the admin wants this level of paranoia (certainty ?) then {,s}he can do it h{im,er}self... at the end of the day, root decides if the media is ``local'', not the media. -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 0:30:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (dynamic-93.max1-du-ws.dialnetwork.pavilion.co.uk [212.74.8.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C7215902 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:30:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00328; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:30:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@lan.awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost.lan.Awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02396; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:08:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199910090108.CAA02396@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Bill Fumerola , Sergey Shkonda , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 1999 20:34:09 BST." <19991007203409.G70248@florence.pavilion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 02:08:35 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:02:48PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > > > > cdid Display the serial number of the cd using the method > > > used by the cddb (http://www.cddb.org) project. > > > > > > URLs end with a trailing slash. (http://www.cddb.org/) > > > > In agreement. Now if someone will give me commit priviledges I'll commit it :) I think the correct procedure is to ply the right people with lots of beers at FreeBSDCon 8*) > Joe > -- > Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today? > Technical Manager Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) > Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 0:59:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D63915034 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-78-41-210.ath.bellsouth.net [216.78.41.210]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.4alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id DAA03011; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (IDENT:wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA42845; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 04:04:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199910090804.EAA42845@bellsouth.net> To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: KLDs In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:14:17 EDT." Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 04:04:53 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Slashdot, ... > > Under QNX, if your driver crashes, the kernel just restarts it. That's not in the least bit how QNX works... oh well, it's slashdot. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 2: 4: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rp-plus.de (clubserv.rp-online.de [149.221.232.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5A81501B for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (as15-147.rp-plus.de [149.221.237.147]) by mail.rp-plus.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22544 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:04:01 +0200 (METDST) Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (root@cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05082 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:04:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA01016 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:06:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:06:13 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vis(3), unvis(3), HTTP-URIs and libfetch Message-ID: <19991009110613.A991@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <19991003135509.A4465@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991003135509.A4465@cichlids.cichlids.com> X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Alexander Langer (alex@cichlids.com): > int strunvisx(char *dst, const char *src, int flag); ok. I'll use a function like this. Alex -- I doubt, therefore I might be. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 8:51: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D6F1519F for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (root@rac9.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.149]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11435; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac9.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA10134; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac9.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10126; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:49:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rac9.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:49:29 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: KLDs In-Reply-To: <199910090804.EAA42845@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > On Slashdot, ... > > > > Under QNX, if your driver crashes, the kernel just restarts it. > > That's not in the least bit how QNX works... oh well, it's slashdot. I've noticed Slashdotters tend to be clueless. It doesn't matter in this case, it is still a cool idea. :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 10:10:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (spirit.jaded.net [216.94.113.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A8414C83 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA05393; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:09:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:09:39 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: James Howard Cc: Chris Costello , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: file system full Message-ID: <19991009130939.E9008@spirit.jaded.net> References: <19991008182545.W86678@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | > Too many open file descriptors. This has nothing to do with | > the file system. | | Is there anyway this can be gotten around? A friend has a mail server | that will spontaneously do this then crash. | | Jamie If you're csh'ish, you can use the ``limit'' command to see what your allowed openfiles are. You can raise this with ``unlimit''. You will also want to look at a few kernel options if the above doesn't fix it. -- Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) "Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 13:17: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tvol.com (mail.wgate.com [38.219.83.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AB71507C for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:17:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rjesup@wgate.com) Received: from jesup.eng.tvol.net (jesup.eng.tvol.net [10.32.2.26]) by mail.tvol.com (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA01851 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Randell Jesup To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Apple's planned appoach to permissions on movable filesystems From: Randell Jesup Date: 09 Oct 1999 16:12:21 +0000 In-Reply-To: Kris Kennaway's message of "Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:06:45 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.43/Emacs 20.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway writes: >Make uids randomly assigned. This solves the problem of collision between >uids on an introduced medium and the ones on the local system by making it >statistical (if the uid space is large enough). In order to manage this >among multiple machines, you'd probably need a synchronisation facility, >both online (connect to some network database), and by an "export/import" >facility which lets you dump a DB and import (parts of) it on another >machine. Storing the large uid in the inode is probably not feasible w/o >breaking compatability, but you could indirect it through a mapping table >loaded from elsewhere on disk when the FS is mounted. > >The downside to this is not being able to assign the uids according to >your own numbering scheme. Perhaps what could be done is to have a lookup >table which maps between in-system uids and on-disk ones, such that the >kernel presents the translated uid to the system, and remaps the unknown >ones. This is a form of the "how do I know who xxxx is?" Other interesting ideas (some related to the above): Store on the disk a (small) UID to user-name/identifier mapping. When mounting a disk, use those mappings to provide the (super)user with the option to map the UID's of users who match the users of files on the disk. There are some issues with identifying whether "joe" is the same "joe" on the other system, but when combined with information that's currently in passwd, it shouldn't be hard. You can also provide this info to the person mounting the disk in a nice form that they can accept, modify, or reject (and mount as totally foreign). For the case of shared user databases, this should always come up with a 1:1 complete mapping. You could extend this to use some form of public-key signature to distinguish between users with similar names, and/or query the original machine for more info/permission if possible. When you mount a disk with UID translation going on, you could also change the UID of new/modified files to be that of the user on the new system (and update the user database on the partition), so when the disk was moved back the original owner could filter out modifications if he so wishes, or 'vet' them. Note: this includes root; or root can be handled specially. Much of what's going on here is that the decisions need to be in user space, and this allows the software to present the user with a likely set of mappings that they can accept, modify or reject. If a (non-priviledged) user wants to mount a disk, they should not be given any other than "other" access to anything (if that(?)), unless they can identify themselves as the same user as one of the users on the mounted disk (see above) - depending on how draconian you want to be, and what level of security you've configured the disk for. (Note: that last may be an important aspect. When a disk is set up in a physically somewhat insecure setup (disk outside box, firewire, etc as is being contemplated) you should be able to decide if you want the disk to be "movable" or not. (And change that decision later if you want to move it.) Please excuse the rambling; I was just throwing out some ideas to see if any stick to the wall. -- Randell Jesup, Worldgate Communications, ex-Scala, ex-Amiga OS team ('88-94) rjesup@wgate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 13:31:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tvol.com (mail.wgate.com [38.219.83.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D3A14BD3 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rjesup@wgate.com) Received: from jesup.eng.tvol.net (jesup.eng.tvol.net [10.32.2.26]) by mail.tvol.com (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA02311 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Randell Jesup To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CAM-ification - documentation From: Randell Jesup Date: 09 Oct 1999 16:26:30 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Kenneth D. Merry"'s message of "Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:54:54 -0600 (MDT)" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.43/Emacs 20.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This discussion should probably move to the freebsd-scsi list... "Kenneth D. Merry" writes: >Nick Hibma wrote... >> Especially some help on the topic of polling would be appreciated. >> Otherwise I'll have to resort to figuring out how to do things in >> interrupt context, and that is going to be dirty. >If you're talking about polling for transaction completion in a device >driver, my guess is that you're going to have to do things in an interrupt >context. (Unless you use a kernel process to do it.) > >The thing to remember is that when you get CCBs down in a CAM device >driver, it may well be in an interrupt context. You have to be able to >deal with that. My guess is that it might be easiest to just use a timeout >handler to poll the device for completion every so often. A kernel process >may also be an option, depending on how nasty the device is. Ick. Polling == bad. Interrupts == good. This isn't a single- tasking OS ala Win9x. This goes double for SCSI drivers, which are inherently async and overlapped. -- Randell Jesup, Worldgate Communications, ex-Scala, ex-Amiga OS team ('88-94) rjesup@wgate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 14:16:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from luna.lyris.net (luna.shelby.com [207.90.155.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7774150D0 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kip@lyris.com) Received: from luna.shelby.com by luna.lyris.net (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id OAA15355; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (luna.shelby.com [207.90.155.6]) by luna.shelby.com with SMTP (MailShield v1.50); Sat, 09 Oct 1999 14:12:23 -0700 Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:12:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Kip Macy X-Sender: kip@luna To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: file system full In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-SMTP-HELO: luna X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: kip@lyris.com X-SMTP-RCPT-TO: howardjp@wam.umd.edu,freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: luna.shelby.com [207.90.155.6] Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Assuming its descriptor usage is bounded, i.e. it is not leaking descriptors, you can solve the problem by using sysctl to raise the max files and max files per process. -Kip On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, James Howard wrote: > On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > > > Too many open file descriptors. This has nothing to do with > > the file system. > > Is there anyway this can be gotten around? A friend has a mail server > that will spontaneously do this then crash. > > Jamie > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 15:24:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B7A151D0 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 15:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA09485; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:24:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199910092224.QAA09485@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: CAM-ification - documentation In-Reply-To: from Randell Jesup at "Oct 9, 1999 04:26:30 pm" To: rjesup@wgate.com (Randell Jesup) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:24:00 -0600 (MDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Randell Jesup wrote... > This discussion should probably move to the freebsd-scsi list... > > "Kenneth D. Merry" writes: > >Nick Hibma wrote... > >> Especially some help on the topic of polling would be appreciated. > >> Otherwise I'll have to resort to figuring out how to do things in > >> interrupt context, and that is going to be dirty. > > >If you're talking about polling for transaction completion in a device > >driver, my guess is that you're going to have to do things in an interrupt > >context. (Unless you use a kernel process to do it.) > > > >The thing to remember is that when you get CCBs down in a CAM device > >driver, it may well be in an interrupt context. You have to be able to > >deal with that. My guess is that it might be easiest to just use a timeout > >handler to poll the device for completion every so often. A kernel process > >may also be an option, depending on how nasty the device is. > > Ick. Polling == bad. Interrupts == good. This isn't a single- > tasking OS ala Win9x. This goes double for SCSI drivers, which are > inherently async and overlapped. I never said polling was good. Nick just asked about polling, and I commented on how it could be done. I have no idea why he wanted to know about polling, though. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 17: 9: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id BBFC214DB2; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:09:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: unfurl@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <19991008180946.A18345@dub.net> (message from Bill Swingle on 8 Oct 1999 18:09:46 -0700) Subject: Re: Surplus 3.2-RELEASE cds Message-Id: <19991010000904.BBFC214DB2@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG bill, please send me one box. i can give them out at the Washington Area FreeBSD User's Group...as well as to people at work. After a year of quiet work a number of die hard Linux folks are coming around to see the light. ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 17:10:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 8DA6E14CF0; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:10:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: unfurl@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <19991008180946.A18345@dub.net> (message from Bill Swingle on 8 Oct 1999 18:09:46 -0700) Subject: Re: Surplus 3.2-RELEASE cds Message-Id: <19991010001046.8DA6E14CF0@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG bill, i should have said that i can pick these up from you next week at the FreeBSDcon. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 17:25:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 0EA4714C80; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:25:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: brian@Awfulhak.org Cc: joe@pavilion.net, billf@jade.chc-chimes.com, serg@bcs.zp.ua, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199910090108.CAA02396@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> (message from Brian Somers on Sat, 09 Oct 1999 02:08:35 +0100) Subject: Re: New command for cdcontrol(1) Message-Id: <19991010002516.0EA4714C80@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > In agreement. Now if someone will give me commit priviledges I'll commit it :) > > I think the correct procedure is to ply the right people with lots of > beers at FreeBSDCon 8*) me! me! ply me! jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 18:12:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from janus.syracuse.net (janus.syracuse.net [205.232.47.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F25214E75; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by janus.syracuse.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA74708; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 21:12:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: janus.syracuse.net: green owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 21:12:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brian F. Feldman" X-Sender: green@janus.syracuse.net To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: unfurl@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Surplus 3.2-RELEASE cds In-Reply-To: <19991010000904.BBFC214DB2@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > bill, > please send me one box. i can give them out at the Washington > Area FreeBSD User's Group...as well as to people at work. After a > year of quiet work a number of die hard Linux folks are coming around > to see the light. ;) Could you get me some info on the meetings? I'd appreciate it :) > > jmb > -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 9 22:40:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from web108.yahoomail.com (web108.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 03EAD15064 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:40:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tmcb1971@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19991010054151.16487.rocketmail@web108.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.215.8.122] by web108.yahoomail.com; Sat, 09 Oct 1999 22:41:51 PDT Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:41:51 -0700 (PDT) From: tom brown Subject: Single character errors in source files, stop kernel compile! To: hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi I'm running FreebSD 3.3 on a AMD-K6 box thats totally SCSI. The controller is Adaptec 2940 and the drive in question is a 40MB/sec IBM 9GB (SCSI 3?).. In the process of attempting to make a new kernel I follow the usual procedure. %cd /sys/i386/conf/ %config KERNEL %cd ../../compile/KERNEL %make depend Everything to this point completes and reports no errors. %make This is where I start to get failures. The compiler will stop with code 1 and will claim that the reason is a single character error in the source code. A typical example would be the word "struct" spelt "strwct". Clearly there is a problem which I doubt is the source code. To work around this I just repeat the make command again and again until the job is done. then I install the kernel and reboot sucessfully. Any ideas? I'm tempted to think it's some kind of a problem with the drive, but I haven't had any real hard failures. The /etc/make.conf has -O2 optimization for the kernel. Ta! Tom Brown ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message