From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 28 10:46:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C49A37B400 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010128184552.SSGA16357.femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:45:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3A7468DD.9BEA6850@home.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:45:49 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... References: <200101280758.f0S7w3W18521@gratis.grondar.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > > I thought we already had this sort of thing for the International > > crypto stuff, hence the internat.freebsd.org site. Can't we just > > expand this group of people to include work in other areas? > > I happily put up DeCSS on internat if I didn't think that the cops > would come a-knocking. > > South Africa is Zone 2 DVD (same as Europe), and I think that the > Commercial Branch may take a copyright case (yeah, yeah) quite > seriously. > > We need a data warehouse in a place like Sealand or Antarctica (or > or the moon!). > > M > -- > Mark Murray > Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I believe DeCss is in the ports collection on my OpenBSD box. Rob. (maybe thats why I've been seeing these cars with a lot of antennas parked out on the street :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 28 12: 4:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641B637B400 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f0SK45538956 ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:04:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA94721 ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:04:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:04:16 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Rob Cc: Mark Murray , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Message-ID: <20010128210416.B87415@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Rob , Mark Murray , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101280758.f0S7w3W18521@gratis.grondar.za> <3A7468DD.9BEA6850@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A7468DD.9BEA6850@home.com>; from europax@home.com on Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 10:45:49AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob said on Jan 28, 2001 at 10:45:49: > > I believe DeCss is in the ports collection on my OpenBSD box. Rob. The decss in the ports collection of FreeBSD is something unrelated, a program to remove CSS from webpages. On a brief look at the OpenBSD site, it seems that what you're talking about is the same thing. In any case, I wouldn't argue that the BSDs go out and include illegal software in their collections. I'm only arguing that the BSD community try and be involved in the broader issues of free/open source software, through articles, discussion, public statements, whatever. The issue with DeCSS is that its purpose is to be able to play DVDs on operating systems which are not officially supported, and to do so it defeats an encryption mechanism. This would not have been illegal before the DMCA came in. The DVD case looks like a test of the DMCA, and if the DMCA survives this test, the consequences for all free software including the BSD's would be quite serious. I think the DMCA is only the first step, and it definitely looks more and more like RMS's "right to read" story http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html is coming true much faster than anyone thought ... Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 28 14:41:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23AE37B400 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (root@patr530-a094.otenet.gr [212.205.215.94]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0SMeoK09308; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:40:51 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0SFg6F55637; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:42:06 +0200 (EET) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:42:06 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy Message-ID: <20010128174206.C55504@hades.hell.gr> References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <20010128.252500@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 01:30:34AM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 01:30:34AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > > 11111 in unary is 1*(1^0) + 1*(1^1) + 1*(1^2) + 1*(1^3) + 1*(1^4). > > This ahem "system" is a little curious: eg how do you represent, erm, > > 0 ? With bells (and whistles) ? :-) > > An empty string :) But since bc(1) does not use some form of "quoting" to its output, you would not be able to tell if the result of the following is `zero' or a really empty string meaning `no result'. $ ( echo "obase=1" ; echo "" ) | bc and the output would be exactly the same as that for: $ ( echo "obase=1" ; echo "0" ) | bc giorgos >}:-} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 28 15:14:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mage.trollkarl.net (fw.trollkarl.net [207.167.5.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3DC37B400 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 15:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from trollkarl.skafte.org (root@trollkarl [192.168.100.16]) by mage.trollkarl.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0SNDsH39031 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:13:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from skafte@trollkarl.net) Received: (from skafte@localhost) by trollkarl.skafte.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0SNDr098317 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:13:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from skafte) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:13:53 -0700 From: Greg Skafte To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: C Puzzle Message-ID: <20010128161353.C98223@trollkarl.skafte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Gregs Hidey Hole Disposition-Notification-To: skafte@trollkarl.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have two code fragments doesn't work : char* fn_mtrim __P((char*)); char* fn_mtrim (s) char* s ;{ short i=0; char *buffer= (char *) calloc (256,sizeof(char)); while (*s){ ( *s == ' ') ? s*++ : buffer[i++] = *s++ ; }; return buffer; } works : char* fn_mtrim __P((char*)); char* fn_mtrim (s) char* s ;{ short i=0; char *buffer= (char *) calloc (256,sizeof(char)); while (*s){ ( *s != ' ') ? buffer[i++] = s*++ : *s++ ; }; return buffer; } Why does the first one not work and the second one work .... -- Email: skafte@trollkarl.net ICQ: 93234105 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 28 15:58:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A648237B402 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 15:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA08013; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:58:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Skafte Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C Puzzle References: <20010128161353.C98223@trollkarl.skafte.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Jan 2001 00:58:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Skafte's message of "Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:13:53 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Skafte writes: > I have two code fragments ...none of which work, since they're not syntactically correct - and even if they were (the error is small), they'd still be amazing examples of fragile design, bad coding style, poor taste, and poor understanding of the C programming language. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 28 16:39: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [194.221.183.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BA1037B6A2 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14945 invoked by uid 0); 29 Jan 2001 00:38:16 -0000 Received: from p3e9bc01d.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO forge.local) (62.155.192.29) by mail.gmx.net (mp012-rz3) with SMTP; 29 Jan 2001 00:38:16 -0000 Received: from thomas by forge.local with local (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 14N2ET-0001Jn-00 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:31:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:31:45 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C Puzzle Message-ID: <20010129013145.A4834@crow.dom2ip.de> Mail-Followup-To: tmoestl@gmx.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20010128161353.C98223@trollkarl.skafte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010128161353.C98223@trollkarl.skafte.org>; from skafte+freebsd-chat@trollkarl.net on Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 04:13:53PM -0700 From: Thomas Moestl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 04:13:53PM -0700, Greg Skafte wrote: > doesn't work : > > char* fn_mtrim __P((char*)); > char* fn_mtrim (s) > char* s ;{ > short i=0; > char *buffer= (char *) calloc (256,sizeof(char)); > while (*s){ > ( *s == ' ') ? s*++ : buffer[i++] = *s++ ; > }; > return buffer; > } > > works : > > char* fn_mtrim __P((char*)); > char* fn_mtrim (s) > char* s ;{ > short i=0; > char *buffer= (char *) calloc (256,sizeof(char)); > while (*s){ > ( *s != ' ') ? buffer[i++] = s*++ : *s++ ; > }; > return buffer; > } > > Why does the first one not work and the second one work .... Precedence tells us: ( *s == ' ') ? *s++ : buffer[i++] = *s++ ; is equivalent to (( *s == ' ') ? *s++ : buffer[i++]) = *s++ ; (notice the outer brackets). I guess you mean *s++ when you write s*++. If you try this with string literal as argument (fn_mtrim("foo bar")), the string will get written into, and this may even segfault using gcc. Otherwise, the result will be wrong anyway, because s gets incremented before it is tested against ' ' (this is not really well-defined), and then incremented again when *s == ' ' and the value is assigned to *s++. - thomas P.S.: this is really ugly ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 28 17:22:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mage.trollkarl.net (fw.trollkarl.net [207.167.5.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA3737B402 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from trollkarl.skafte.org (root@trollkarl [192.168.100.16]) by mage.trollkarl.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0T1M6H39779 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 18:22:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from skafte@trollkarl.net) Received: (from skafte@localhost) by trollkarl.skafte.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0T1M6H98437 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 18:22:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from skafte) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 18:22:05 -0700 From: Greg Skafte To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C Puzzle Message-ID: <20010128182205.A98336@trollkarl.skafte.org> References: <20010128161353.C98223@trollkarl.skafte.org> <20010129013145.A4834@crow.dom2ip.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010129013145.A4834@crow.dom2ip.de>; from tmoestl@gmx.net on Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:31:45AM +0100 Organization: Gregs Hidey Hole Disposition-Notification-To: skafte@trollkarl.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know its ugly ... its an example of what not to do .... but I forgot to check the precedence of ?: .... I also knew that they were syntactically incorrect. thanks G Quoting Thomas Moestl (tmoestl@gmx.net) On Subject: Re: C Puzzle Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:31:45AM +0100 > On Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 04:13:53PM -0700, Greg Skafte wrote: > > doesn't work : > > > > char* fn_mtrim __P((char*)); > > char* fn_mtrim (s) > > char* s ;{ > > short i=0; > > char *buffer= (char *) calloc (256,sizeof(char)); > > while (*s){ > > ( *s == ' ') ? s*++ : buffer[i++] = *s++ ; > > }; > > return buffer; > > } > > > > works : > > > > char* fn_mtrim __P((char*)); > > char* fn_mtrim (s) > > char* s ;{ > > short i=0; > > char *buffer= (char *) calloc (256,sizeof(char)); > > while (*s){ > > ( *s != ' ') ? buffer[i++] = s*++ : *s++ ; > > }; > > return buffer; > > } > > > > Why does the first one not work and the second one work .... > Precedence tells us: > ( *s == ' ') ? *s++ : buffer[i++] = *s++ ; > is equivalent to > (( *s == ' ') ? *s++ : buffer[i++]) = *s++ ; > (notice the outer brackets). I guess you mean *s++ when you write s*++. > If you try this with string literal as argument (fn_mtrim("foo bar")), > the string will get written into, and this may even segfault using gcc. > Otherwise, the result will be wrong anyway, because s gets incremented > before it is tested against ' ' (this is not really well-defined), and > then incremented again when *s == ' ' and the value is assigned to *s++. > > - thomas > > P.S.: this is really ugly ;-) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Email: skafte@trollkarl.net ICQ: 93234105 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 28 23:20:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ps.popnet.kiev.ua (ps.popnet.kiev.ua [193.193.198.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1A537B404 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from arudak (arudak.popnet.kiev.ua [192.168.100.125]) by ps.popnet.kiev.ua (8.10.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id f0T7JoK16964 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:19:50 +0200 Message-ID: <004701c089c3$a1124110$7d64a8c0@arudak> From: "Alexander Rudak" To: Subject: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:18:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01C089D4.647F99D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C089D4.647F99D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe freebsd-chat ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C089D4.647F99D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C089D4.647F99D0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 10:43:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.flex.ic5.net (pc7-ren13.cable.ntl.com [62.255.161.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3560537B783 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:42:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from coda ([192.168.5.2]) by mail.flex.ic5.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA25994 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:42:51 GMT (envelope-from johnm@ic5.net) From: "John McGarrigle" To: Subject: Problem with top in 4.2-RELEASE? Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:42:50 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, I tried to run top after installing the latest 4.2-RELEASE, and got this error message; Ion:/etc# top top: nlist failed Just wondered if any of you guys could shed some light on the problem or something similar :) Thanks ---- John 'Neuron' McGarrigle Email: johnm@ic5.net ICQ: 18220396 ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 12:12:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.org (adsl-64-169-104-72.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDBD37B402; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 59D5EBA2AF; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:12:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:12:27 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: John McGarrigle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Problem with top in 4.2-RELEASE? Message-ID: <20010129121227.A26431@xor.obsecurity.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from johnm@ic5.net on Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:42:50PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:42:50PM +0000, John McGarrigle wrote: > Hey, >=20 > I tried to run top after installing the latest 4.2-RELEASE, and got this > error message; >=20 > Ion:/etc# top > top: nlist failed Either a) You have a mismatch between your kernel and userland (i.e. they were built from different sources), or b) you are not booting your system through the boot loader (but are loading your kernel directly from boot0). Someone REALLY needs to add the above to the FAQ. Doc guys? Kris --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6dc6rWry0BWjoQKURAp5DAKCqXwQmw4674sxtpEQRBoSQi/A+ZACg08pI 8WEgIUA3/NQKzAhAn2rAujM= =LBWP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 12:15: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.flex.ic5.net (pc7-ren13.cable.ntl.com [62.255.161.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01B537B699; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from coda ([192.168.5.2]) by mail.flex.ic5.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA27590; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:14:40 GMT (envelope-from johnm@ic5.net) From: "John McGarrigle" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: , Subject: RE: Problem with top in 4.2-RELEASE? Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:14:39 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20010129121227.A26431@xor.obsecurity.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, I do get an error at boot.. and I don't have a clue how to get rid of it.. ---- John 'Neuron' McGarrigle Email: johnm@ic5.net ICQ: 18220396 Phone: +44 (0)7944 604 644 ---- -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Kris Kennaway Sent: 29 January 2001 8:12 PM To: John McGarrigle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Problem with top in 4.2-RELEASE? On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:42:50PM +0000, John McGarrigle wrote: > Hey, > > I tried to run top after installing the latest 4.2-RELEASE, and got this > error message; > > Ion:/etc# top > top: nlist failed Either a) You have a mismatch between your kernel and userland (i.e. they were built from different sources), or b) you are not booting your system through the boot loader (but are loading your kernel directly from boot0). Someone REALLY needs to add the above to the FAQ. Doc guys? Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 12:41:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.org (adsl-64-169-104-72.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC2237B6A6 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:41:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 71E74BA2AF; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:41:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:41:43 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: John McGarrigle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Problem with top in 4.2-RELEASE? Message-ID: <20010129124143.B26647@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010129121227.A26431@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from johnm@ic5.net on Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 08:14:39PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 08:14:39PM +0000, John McGarrigle wrote: > Yeah, I do get an error at boot.. and I don't have a clue how to get rid of > it.. Paste the error? Kris --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6ddWGWry0BWjoQKURAisLAJ9PHaEGMHFm7PYAPEfqRAFPzvyl6ACg/3MU Jhr54oTJju2a+YdAoev/Y80= =2f5s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 14:10:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03A737B698 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com ([216.196.73.168]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:08:46 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0TMAYM99046 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:10:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:10:34 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD in Spellchecker Message-ID: <20010129141034.A99031@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflex> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just ran the spellchecker in Netscape Messenger over a mail that happened to have "FreeBSD" in it. It's suggestion for a correction was "friends." Just found that kind of curious. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 16:27:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AC7037B400; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA53075; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:26:52 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:26:56 +1300 (NZDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: To: Will Andrews Cc: , Nik Clayton Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/astro/xearth/files freebsd.committers.markers In-Reply-To: <20010129192450.I1892@puck.firepipe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Will Andrews wrote: > On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 03:28:41PM -0800, Nik Clayton wrote: > > Log: > > Update with my current location (just down the road from cpiazza) > > You moved to Canada?! And what would be wrong with that if he did? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 16:30:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from puck.firepipe.net (mcut-b-167.resnet.purdue.edu [128.211.209.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A528937B400; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by puck.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D73CB1A2A; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:30:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:30:03 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Dan Langille Cc: Will Andrews , chat@freebsd.org, Nik Clayton Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/astro/xearth/files freebsd.committers.markers Message-ID: <20010129193003.J1892@puck.firepipe.net> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <20010129192450.I1892@puck.firepipe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VSaCG/zfRnOiPJtU" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:26:56PM +1300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --VSaCG/zfRnOiPJtU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:26:56PM +1300, Dan Langille wrote: > And what would be wrong with that if he did? Nothing; I'm just surprised he actually moved _somewhere_ ... --=20 wca --VSaCG/zfRnOiPJtU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6dgsLF47idPgWcsURAk0eAJ4zzjVYiMNT5CGvGDuF6ARtYR7rfQCdH9zU ftsU6/ChfUMwUB8+r/zZfNM= =uscN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VSaCG/zfRnOiPJtU-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 16:34: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B3D37B402; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA53147; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:33:32 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:33:39 +1300 (NZDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: To: Will Andrews Cc: , Nik Clayton Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/astro/xearth/files freebsd.committers.markers In-Reply-To: <20010129193003.J1892@puck.firepipe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Will Andrews wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:26:56PM +1300, Dan Langille wrote: > > And what would be wrong with that if he did? > > Nothing; I'm just surprised he actually moved _somewhere_ ... Well, it's good he now has a home.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 16:41:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D8837B400; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:41:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19384; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:36:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHJaaYL; Mon Jan 29 17:36:21 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10841; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:40:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101300040.RAA10841@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:40:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), nik@FreeBSD.ORG (Nik Clayton), msmith@FreeBSD.ORG (Mike Smith), scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010127152254.D28709@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Jan 27, 2001 03:22:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What a German hacker can do with impunity, a U.S. hacker will, in > > fact, find themselves legally entangled, at great expense. > > Umm... DeCSS was written by a 16 year old in Norway, called Jon > Johansen (who, by the way, used both linux and FreeBSD), and just > about a year ago his home was raided by Norway's National Authority > for Investigation and Prosecution of Economic and Environmental Crime > at the instigation of the MPAA, he was questioned for 7 hours, his > computers were seized. Later he took the witness stand at the DVD > trial in New York. I just refreshed my memory on all this at the EFF > web page, Norway has already shown itself to be a legal pushover; that was proven the moment that the Scientology and similar cases succeeded in penetrating anon.penet.fi (an anonymous remailer, which no one can trust now). > I remember reading even at that time that the OS he was primarily > using was FreeBSD, rather than Linux. But it is the "linux community" > which was willing to take up the fight. It's a matter of philosophy. Without advocating action one way or the other, there are some obvious things we can note. Consider that manufacturing hammers is much more difficult than using them. Now consider if one wanted to make posession of hammers illegal: one can crack down on hammer manufacturers in ones territory, and in territory where such crackdown can be reasonably enforced by proxy. Now consider that you have red hammers and black hammers, and red hammers are manufactured in a location where a crackdown is not possible, whereas back hammers are manufactured in a location which is enforcible by proxy (let's call this mythical place "Norway"). It is the ubiquity of the tool, not the willingness of people who are subject to prosecution for manufactuing the tool, which will dictate terms. But for a tool to become ubiquitous, it must first be manufactured _somewhere_. > > > (3) The question of software patents in Europe. I've seen this as part > > > of some signatures, and so on, on FreeBSD lists, but that's about it. > > > The petition against it is housed at http://petition.eurolinux.org. > > > > Similar reasoning applies here: European legislation has little > > impact on those already suffering under the U.S. equivalent. > > That's pretty shortsighted. A better attitude would be to think that > a strong anti-software-patent movement in Europe could strengthen > the movement which already exists in the US. (By the way, did people > notice the news item about someone getting a trademark on the frownie, > :-( ?) No, that's called "market economics". It's really short sighted, from some perspectives, for people to not be willing to die to defend their beliefs, and instead to emigrate to a place where they will not be persecuted, and then try to rally the support of the local population, so that the country where the expatriate is located beats up on the country of origin. It's really a case of risk/return. The U.S. stance on intellectual property law is what drives investment. You'll notice that there is little, if any, investment in technology ventures in countries with weak or unenforced/unenforcible intellectual property laws; Russia and the other former Soviet Republics are good examples, as is China. > > To me, these look like non-U.S. vs. U.S. Corporate interests > > fights. In order to be involved against U.S. corporate interests, > > Well, have it your way, but it is the US corporates which are lining > up behind linux... No, they're not. They are lining up against Microsoft. Linux just happens to be the most populous banner on that side of the fence. It also has the correct diametric opposition, in terms of philosophy and rhetoric. IBM committed $1G to marketing Linux, but if you want to use Linux in an IBM project, you have to fly to an IBM education center and attend a 5 day class on how to keep the GPL from diluting IBM's patents, and what you can and can't use, and who has to vet it, and how it has to be distributed. For big comapnies, Linux is nothing more than a marketing lever. > The point is, the parade did exist before ESR got out in front of it. > And it still exists even though ESR isn't making much noise nowadays. > Most important, to me, the issues the parade is trying to bring to > public focus really are important issues, whether you agree with > them or not. In any prision riot, there will be valid grievances raised. > > Actually, it;s a philosophical war, and BSD is sitting on the fence; > > it's no wonder it hasn't seen any action. > > BSD's entire philosophy is to sit on the fence: that's basically the > usual justification for BSD style licensing, too. It's very nice but > it doesn't inspire large numbers of people to go out and try to change > things... BSD has not taken a side in the philosophical war between corporate and collectivist ownership of intellectual property (regardless of the fact that it is most often corporate dollars which funded the creation of that property in the first place). But the idea that there exist two and only two diametrically opposed forces is what's called an Aristotilian mean. It's a false assumption, and you can really cast a philosophical chalk-line anywhere you want, and get people to rally to either side of the thing. The BSD mentality here is very apolitical; Brett Glass frequently tries to cast the chalk-line between collectivist vs. private (not just corporate) ownership of the property, but the expedient short term best value for BSD, in most of the participants opinions, is to throw BSD's lot in with Linux, rather than in with corporate, and so he reaps violent opposition. The thing we forget is that, without string intellectual property laws, there's no such thing as enforcement of corporate, collectivist, individual, or even the choice to cede as much ownership as you can and still indemnify yourself (the BSD way). With fence-sitting, one is doomed to a dearth of recognized pundits to engage in the activities you suggest, even if they could do so with as little risk as Linux pundits usually manage. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 18: 5:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BEA37B402; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id UAA86833150 Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:05:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA41825; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:05:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:05:33 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Nik Clayton , Mike Smith , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Message-ID: <20010129180533.A41785@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010127152254.D28709@lpt.ens.fr> <200101300040.RAA10841@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200101300040.RAA10841@usr07.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:40:52AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:40:52AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Now consider that you have red hammers and black hammers, and > red hammers are manufactured in a location where a crackdown is > not possible, whereas back hammers are manufactured in a location > which is enforcible by proxy (let's call this mythical place > "Norway"). > I now have a new mental icon for Terry. Its a red and black hammer on a shield. Or maybe a box of red and black hammers. Grin. [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 19:12:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E37A37B404 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id VAA90744598 Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:12:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA42007; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:12:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:12:15 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Dan Langille Cc: void , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who's this Kate person? Message-ID: <20010129191215.A41956@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200101240039.NAA08124@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200101240039.NAA08124@ducky.nz.freebsd.org>; from dan@langille.org on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:39:25AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sounds like a line out of a movie I saw a while back on PBS. Can't remember much more than that though. [RC] On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:39:25AM +0000, Dan Langille wrote: > Ben wrote in his sig... > > > -- > > Ben > > > > "I told Paddy no, I told Steve no, I told Paul no, and Ben fell asleep." > > --Kate C. (no, different Ben, I would have stayed up) > > Now please share the story behind this sig.... > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 21:15:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.org (adsl-64-169-104-72.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B8E37B69B for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CFD59BA134; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:16:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:16:09 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Message-ID: <20010129211609.A7649@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010127152254.D28709@lpt.ens.fr> <200101300040.RAA10841@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101300040.RAA10841@usr07.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:40:52AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:40:52AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > What a German hacker can do with impunity, a U.S. hacker will, in > > > fact, find themselves legally entangled, at great expense. > >=20 > > Umm... DeCSS was written by a 16 year old in Norway, called Jon > > Johansen (who, by the way, used both linux and FreeBSD), and just > > about a year ago his home was raided by Norway's National Authority > > for Investigation and Prosecution of Economic and Environmental Crime > > at the instigation of the MPAA, he was questioned for 7 hours, his > > computers were seized. Later he took the witness stand at the DVD > > trial in New York. I just refreshed my memory on all this at the EFF > > web page,=20 >=20 > Norway has already shown itself to be a legal pushover; that was > proven the moment that the Scientology and similar cases succeeded > in penetrating anon.penet.fi (an anonymous remailer, which no one > can trust now). I could have sworn Norway wasn't the same thing as Finland. :-) Kris --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6dk4ZWry0BWjoQKURAjm0AJ9I19H1e0juf4GgZQQt/o5G+8KP5gCg12Jn J8c7QFDOOIj/ZHvTjjaf7fM= =kXzX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tThc/1wpZn/ma/RB-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 21:22: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28BF537B69C for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA37401; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:21:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:21:45 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... In-Reply-To: <20010129211609.A7649@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: :On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:40:52AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: :> :> Norway has already shown itself to be a legal pushover; that was :> proven the moment that the Scientology and similar cases succeeded :> in penetrating anon.penet.fi (an anonymous remailer, which no one :> can trust now). : :I could have sworn Norway wasn't the same thing as Finland. :-) Norway was such a legal pushover they took over Finland for the Scientology loons? David : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 29 21:53:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD75C37B400 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA55439; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:53:16 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101300553.SAA55439@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary / FreshPorts To: Robert Clark Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:53:15 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who's this Kate person? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: void , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20010129191215.A41956@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200101240039.NAA08124@ducky.nz.freebsd.org>; from dan@langille.org on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:39:25AM +0000 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29 Jan 2001, at 19:12, Robert Clark wrote: > Sounds like a line out of a movie I saw a while back on > PBS. Can't remember much more than that though. No worries. All has been explained off list. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 30 11: 5:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB5637B6AC for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:05:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1362"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01JZIRHM3YFA00BAQS@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:04:35 EST Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:17:29 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: egroups now Yahoo groups ??? cool To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <3A771349.704F59A2@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C033F100E2B8EF2897D2483A" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C033F100E2B8EF2897D2483A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, I've occasionally used egroups to check the BSD mailing lists and suddenly I found that they are part of Yahoo! now. I had accounts on both now I can share this stuff... http://groups.yahoo.com/ Yahoo really knows how to grow! cheers, Pedro. --------------C033F100E2B8EF2897D2483A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------C033F100E2B8EF2897D2483A-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 5:57:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2B937B698; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 05:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id UAA86833150 Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:05:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA41825; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:05:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:05:33 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Nik Clayton , Mike Smith , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Message-ID: <20010129180533.A41785@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010127152254.D28709@lpt.ens.fr> <200101300040.RAA10841@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200101300040.RAA10841@usr07.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:40:52AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:40:52AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Now consider that you have red hammers and black hammers, and > red hammers are manufactured in a location where a crackdown is > not possible, whereas back hammers are manufactured in a location > which is enforcible by proxy (let's call this mythical place > "Norway"). > I now have a new mental icon for Terry. Its a red and black hammer on a shield. Or maybe a box of red and black hammers. Grin. [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 6:56:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F11C37B65D for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 06:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f0VEwZR40398 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:58:35 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:58:35 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Way off topic Message-ID: <20010131085835.A650@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org While researching homebuilding links, I came across this: http://www.sunbelt-software.com/stu/ -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 12: 2: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E9137B4EC for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.07) with ESMTP id f0VK1es06634 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:01:40 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:59:48 +0100 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: Embedded servers + PicoBSD? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, The story on /. about the Netcomm Modem/Hub/Server (running an embedded version of Linux, see ) has gotten me thinking about how you could do something like this (or even better) on FreeBSD. It also occurred to me that you could do the WAN networking part with standard PC Cards, and you could even throw in wireless 802.11b networking as well. Does anyone know of any good embedded hardware systems that are well-supported by FreeBSD, and can support a hard drive (e.g., an IDE/ATAPI drive like you might find in a laptop), plus a couple of PC Cards? If you've got this much, I think most of the rest of the drivers pretty much already fall right into place, and all you'd have to do is cook up a case to put the thing in, and a small four or five-port hub to plug onto the back of the machine (which would then get integrated into the case). Just curious. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 12:14:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D9C37B69C for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA26963; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:14:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Embedded servers + PicoBSD? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 31 Jan 2001 21:14:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brad Knowles's message of "Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:59:48 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Does anyone know of any good embedded hardware systems that are > well-supported by FreeBSD, and can support a hard drive (e.g., an > IDE/ATAPI drive like you might find in a laptop), plus a couple of PC > Cards? The Ericsson eBox is close to what you want. I don't know how well it runs FreeBSD; it ships with a bastardized RedHat 5.something, and I've never tried installing FreeBSD on one, but it's a plain-jane 486DX with on-board Ethernet and one or two PCCARD (possibly Cardbus) slots; the only difficulty I can foresee is finding / writing a driver for the on-board 24MB flash ROM, I have no idea what brand it is. Bulk price is something like $400-$500 w/tax. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 13:37:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EC537B6A3 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25318; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:36:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010131143448.049ada00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:36:44 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Embedded servers + PicoBSD? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've already done something better than this with OpenBSD and something similar with FreeBSD. It's not only do-able, it's much BETTER to use a BSD-licensed OS for embedded applications. The GPL is a real liability because it could force you to give up the special creative work you've put into your embedded hardware and software. --Brett At 12:59 PM 1/31/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: >Folks, > > The story on /. about the Netcomm Modem/Hub/Server (running an embedded version of Linux, see ) has gotten me thinking about how you could do something like this (or even better) on FreeBSD. > > It also occurred to me that you could do the WAN networking part with standard PC Cards, and you could even throw in wireless 802.11b networking as well. > > > Does anyone know of any good embedded hardware systems that are well-supported by FreeBSD, and can support a hard drive (e.g., an IDE/ATAPI drive like you might find in a laptop), plus a couple of PC Cards? > > If you've got this much, I think most of the rest of the drivers pretty much already fall right into place, and all you'd have to do is cook up a case to put the thing in, and a small four or five-port hub to plug onto the back of the machine (which would then get integrated into the case). > > > Just curious. > >-- > These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy >====================================================================== >Brad Knowles, > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 13:56:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E45537B6A9 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 76730575DE; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:56:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:56:21 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Embedded servers + PicoBSD? Message-ID: <20010131155621.A46862@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 08:59:48PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 08:59:48PM +0100, Brad Knowles scribbled: | The story on /. about the Netcomm Modem/Hub/Server (running an | embedded version of Linux, see | ) has gotten | me thinking about how you could do something like this (or even | better) on FreeBSD. | It also occurred to me that you could do the WAN networking part | with standard PC Cards, and you could even throw in wireless 802.11b | networking as well. | Does anyone know of any good embedded hardware systems that are | well-supported by FreeBSD, and can support a hard drive (e.g., an | IDE/ATAPI drive like you might find in a laptop), plus a couple of PC | Cards? | If you've got this much, I think most of the rest of the drivers | pretty much already fall right into place, and all you'd have to do | is cook up a case to put the thing in, and a small four or five-port | hub to plug onto the back of the machine (which would then get | integrated into the case). To my knowledge, has this not been happening for a long time? ... -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 14:52:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1DF37B491 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA71342 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:52:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:52:10 -0500 (EST) From: scanner@jurai.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: OSDN needs a HW, colo, BW donations was Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... In-Reply-To: <20010128210416.B87415@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This thread started out about OSDL and how it was Linux specific and we never got a shot at being part of it. Well here is a chance for BSD to be a part of one of these projects. The OSDN people have started a Content project to be a clearing house for news relating to open source projects, to be a voice for smaller projects that are not as heavily published as others. It's goal is to be fair, balanced and all the goodies we want. It is just now getting started and I have signed up for doing BSD content. What they need now is donations of co-lo, spare hardware etc.. The project leader seems to be very itnerested in a level playing field and having everyone heard equally. Some might be thinking "great another slashdot". But there will be no place for comment, or feedback, except the editor who published the news article. His/Her email will be listed and thats it. No flame wars, no disputing this or that or tearing the article apart. It's just a news outlet. All the open source projects are going to be represented. Assuming each project volunteers someone to maintain the content for said project. I am asking for any of you who want to see BSD get a more even handed shake at being part of projects like this to donate any spare hardware you have, or even better BW and/or colo space. They really need some space to host the equipment. And an extra server or two wouldnt be turned down. But for those who feel FreeBSD and BSD in general are never included in these type or projects. Here is the chance for BSD to be a driving force and be heard from the beginning at the ground floor. If you are interested in helping out shoot me an email. ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (316) 326-3862 | FreeBSD Consultant, FreeBSD Geek Work: scanner@jurai.net | Open Systems Inc., Wellington, Kansas Home: scanner@deceptively.shady.org | http://open-systems.net ============================================================================= WINDOWS: "Where do you want to go today?" LINUX: "Where do you want to go tommorow?" BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" ============================================================================= irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 17:31:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243D937B4EC for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.15]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA51756; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:27:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:35:16 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Subject: Re: egroups now Yahoo groups ??? cool In-Reply-To: <3A771349.704F59A2@pitt.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > I've occasionally used egroups to check the BSD mailing lists and > suddenly I found that they are part of Yahoo! now. They were bought a while back and have been working on the integration for some time. I personally don't like it and plan to move the few groups I moderate off. I am not doing it as a polititcal statement.. I simply don't like from usability what Yahoo is doing. They are trying to put too many things together, plus a few things change the interface to what I consider is the worse. I had accounts on > both now I can share this stuff... I think of it as having less choice. I never really liked yahoo's implementations of their clubs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 17:58:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4458637B6A9 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 42760 invoked by uid 100); 1 Feb 2001 01:58:22 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14968.49854.189652.128754@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:58:22 -0600 (CST) To: Roelof Osinga Cc: "Albert D. Cahalan" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT: non-Unix history (Was: FreeBSD vs linux) In-Reply-To: <3A78BA39.8A14F8F@nisser.com> References: <14957.31196.939559.889627@guru.mired.org> <3A6F43F7.E43C6CA0@nisser.com> <14959.23870.728403.859934@guru.mired.org> <3A78BA39.8A14F8F@nisser.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Roelof Osinga types: > Mike Meyer wrote: I've moved this to -chat, as it's off topic for -questions. > > There are *lots* of potential reasons, many of them good ones. The > > issue about machine speed shows up in the infamous "Worse is better" > > paper, and I talk about this particular case in my "Good enough is > > best" paper > > (which provides pointers to "Worse is better" as well as covering the > > salient features). > I've started glimpsing part of that, or rather a reference in that > paper (The Rise of ``Worse is Better'') and I must say that what is > said in that is more or less ancient history. By which I mean > predating by far that article. Well, the "Good news, bad news" paper that "Worse is better" is part of dates back to '93, so in a sense, it is ancient history. > It is commonly known as > > Keep > It > Simple, > Stupid! > > or KISS for short. Something I, like any engineer, fully subscribe. > Maybe one of these days I'll read it fully. Until then I would like > to remark that introducing new terminology is in direct conflict > with the premise of KISS. New Jersey approach? Sheesh! I would suggest you read the full thing before commenting on it. Both approaches described in Gabriel paper are KISS approaches. I don't know of any names to describe them, other than the ones used there. At least one of those - Do The Right Thing - is in common use, but I'm not sure if that's where it originated. > It's a village type clash. Like the whole looser-ing problem. To me > it depends one the drawing of the system boundary. At what are you > looking? The whole solution or just one aspect? The difference between > wanting the procedure perfect versus the program perfect. The latter > does not necessarily depend on the former. Exactly - what are you looking at? Remeber, an OS - or a programming language - may be a product, but it's not a solution. It's a tool for building solutions. The approach for DTRT is keep the process of creating solutions simple (KISS). The approach for "Worse is better" is to keeps building the tool simple (KISS). > I don't quite agree with heaping CL and scheme together. Scheme is > more aking to LISP than CL. Originally anyway. Like comparing C++ > as CL with C as Scheme which were surprisingly used interchangingly. I'm not sure what you think they meant by CL, but they actually meant Common Lisp. Both CL and Scheme came from the LISP community, and had a LISP-like syntax on an Algol-like structure. > It's also too simplistic. On purpose. Read the paper. > One twist I observed in my hastily glimpsing of your piece is that > you seem to skip over the fact that what 'worse is better' is saying, > namely that KISS will win the battle, is precisely that. Meaning to > ultimately got 'something' into the most hands. Does refrasing > constitute a caricature? Well, of course worse is better says that KISS will win the battle - both methodologies are KISS methodologies. > Then again, as someone who tries to adhere to KISS I'm biased. To > me they both say more or less the same thing. The differences being > so minor a detail as to mean that bothering about those conflicts > with the whole idea of KISS ;). They only say the same thing if you never use tools you didn't create yourself. > > ... > > to port it to each variant. Since VMS - and later NT - were usually a > > larger market than any single Unix vendor, even if it wasn't as big as > > all of them put together, it got preference. > Which, of course, is why MVS or even OS/400 still rule the day. No? > Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. Also, define 'usually'. Are we > talking early '93 'usually' or early '00 'usually'-ness? I'm asking > because in '93 UNIX ruled whereas in '00 UNIX still ruled but the > trade rags said 't was NT that ruled . In '93, there were more VMS systems around than any single Unix platform. Sure, there may have been more Unix systems, but you couldn't write a "Unix version" of a competitive product and sell that, you had to have a SunOS version, and a Solaris version, and an HP version, and an Ultrix version, and an OSF version, and a MIPS version, and .... These days, VMS seems to have been replaced by NT, whereas a few of the Unix versions are gone, and have been replaced by various Linux distributions and of course the BSDs. > So define market. If UNIX is a specialisation of Multics and VMS > a specialisation of UNIX, then NT is but another UNIX . Granted, > with a whole different API/ABI. So what else is new? Of course, those are all just variants of ITS, done by people who didn't get it. So what? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 18: 7:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8108337B491 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:07:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1568"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01JZKKKAICRS00BRMG@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:07:30 EST Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:20:28 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: egroups now Yahoo groups ??? cool To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3A78C7EC.D80A3D44@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------14D6493D9AFAE273721BB4FA" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------14D6493D9AFAE273721BB4FA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Francisco Reyes wrote: > ... > > I had accounts on > > both now I can share this stuff... > > I think of it as having less choice. I never really liked yahoo's > implementations of their clubs. I tend to agree, there is a FreeBSD club that no one uses (I doubt the linux club has more success). However I would love to be able to read the BSD lists from my.yahoo . cheers, Pedro --------------14D6493D9AFAE273721BB4FA Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------14D6493D9AFAE273721BB4FA-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 19: 3:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6782B37B684 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29352 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:02:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010131194647.00db6ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:02:53 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Report from LinuxWorld Expo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just spent a rather wild day at the LinuxWorld Expo show. It's bigger this year -- at least twice the show floor space -- but, alas, only two booths and NO conference sessions were devoted to anything BSD-ish. One of the booths was BSDi's, which was huge -- but also a bit corporate and sterile, despite the presence of two "daemon babes" who were posing for pictures with passers by. It must have cost a bundle, but the austere booth didn't attract very much foot traffic. I think that the old booth, while it was a bit cramped, was more down-to-earth and friendly. NetBSD had a booth in the .org pavilion and was hawking CD-ROMs. It was good to see them there, since the BSDs had *no* presence in that section last year. For some reason, Jordan didn't show up for the "Penguin Bowl" quiz show, even though he was listed as a participant. (In fact, I haven't seen him at the conference at all.... Is he OK?) So, Nick Petreley, seeing me in a pair of daemon horns, tapped me as a substitute, sitting me down right next to Linus on a team which also included Rick Moen and Chris De Bono. We cleaned up, utterly trouncing the opposing team by a margin of several THOUSAND points. All the team members took home tropies, which were large, golden, handblown glass penguins. (I'm thinking about making a pair of little red horns for mine.) In the evening, IBM hosted a crowded and very loud reception, with good food and a completely open bar (which must have cost them a fortune). They're clearly courting the Linuxoid community in a very serious way.... I certainly hope that this does not meant that IBM is exclusively on the Linux bandwagon and unwilling to work with the BSDs. (Yes, they did acquire Whistle, but don't seem to be publicizing the fact that it has "BSD Inside.") More reports as the show progresses. There doesn't seem to be a "BSD BOF," as there was last year.... If anyone who's at the show wants to instigate one, drop me a line. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 19:25:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c0039.upc-c.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890AB37B69E for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:25:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA57309; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 04:24:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <3A78D708.5F5873C8@nisser.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 04:24:56 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: Nisser - Nr. 1 in Veiligheid X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: "Albert D. Cahalan" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT: non-Unix history (Was: FreeBSD vs linux) References: <14957.31196.939559.889627@guru.mired.org> <3A6F43F7.E43C6CA0@nisser.com> <14959.23870.728403.859934@guru.mired.org> <3A78BA39.8A14F8F@nisser.com> <14968.49854.189652.128754@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > I've moved this to -chat, as it's off topic for -questions. Fine, but I unsubscribed chat some time ago. > ... > I would suggest you read the full thing before commenting on it. Both > approaches described in Gabriel paper are KISS approaches. I don't > know of any names to describe them, other than the ones used there. At > least one of those - Do The Right Thing - is in common use, but I'm > not sure if that's where it originated. Proper suggestion, but who has the time to read 'all'? Anyway, I've been told KISS originated (at least) as a term used by the US infantry - genie troops - during WW2. > Exactly - what are you looking at? Remeber, an OS - or a programming > language - may be a product, but it's not a solution. It's a tool for That, too, is a boundary question. If the goal is world peace and no more hunger all the rest are mere products... > I'm not sure what you think they meant by CL, but they actually meant > Common Lisp. Both CL and Scheme came from the LISP community, and had > a LISP-like syntax on an Algol-like structure. Not quite. At least, as far as I know. My first introduction(s) to CS was by a book about designing TTL (and core :) computers as well as one by a Dutch professor about teaching Algol '68. Now Algol was about block structures, something traditional. John McCarthy's LISP OTOH was about Lambda calculus. Though not Typed Lambda Calculus whereas Algol was in fact typed. In as far as typing went in those days. Mind you, polymorphism and overloading were concepts introduced in the early '60s. CL is LISP extended and standardized as far as can be. Not KISS. Scheme, in contrast, just took one aspect of LISP - can't remember which, most likely closures - and extended just that. That is KISS. > On purpose. Read the paper. Did, too . Just don't agree with all of it. > Well, of course worse is better says that KISS will win the battle - > both methodologies are KISS methodologies. Yeah, well, when Windows gets mentioned... > They only say the same thing if you never use tools you didn't create > yourself. Well, maybe. But some of the things you ascribe to Windows could also be ascribed to, say, MVS. I tend to look at some of those 'success stories' as signs of the times. More a matter of fashion and timing than anything else. Not to mention location. Just imagine Bill Gates having been born in Beijing! He would've been (materially) successful, no doubt! But... > In '93, there were more VMS systems around than any single Unix > platform. Sure, there may have been more Unix systems, but you > couldn't write a "Unix version" of a competitive product and sell > that, you had to have a SunOS version, and a Solaris version, and an > HP version, and an Ultrix version, and an OSF version, and a MIPS > version, and .... Hm. In that same '93 we also had the heralded - by Bill Gates, no less! - OS/2 besides DOS and Windows 3.x. So you were saying? > These days, VMS seems to have been replaced by NT, whereas a few of > the Unix versions are gone, and have been replaced by various Linux > distributions and of course the BSDs. As have DOS, OS/2, Win-16x, Win CE, Win... Let's face it, porting "Windows" apps is breaking glass, mostly. > Of course, those are all just variants of ITS, done by people who > didn't get it. So what? So it's better than punched cards, that is! ;). I'm just pointing out, at least in this message, that there's a whole world of differences between a technical point of view and a marketing point of view. Whether WordStar was KISS or WordPerfect is a moot point since Word rules the day. At least this day, who knows what tomorrow'll bring? So to explain the world that is from the surmised design principles underlying said products is moving onto shaky territory to say the least. Is the world that is due to the design principles or to the fact that BG wasn't born in Beijing after all? Which had the most impact? Who's to say? We can debate the impact of Algol not having had the equivalent of LISP's EVAL() statement to our hearts content, yet would that statement - or even the design principles underlying the choice of whether or not to include that statement - account for the advent of C or Pascal. Neither of which have an EVAL() statement, b.t.w. BASIC could've had! Heck, even COBOL. Within the context of design principles LISP is a very elegant design. Even though it does not fully adhere to Lambda Calculus' (dated somewhere '38-ish. Forgotten the name, much like Steele's first name :) principles. So not KISS. OTOH, neither was Algol. Just take its for statement! Then again, ever looked at Windows closely? Hm. Where's Forth anyway? Could've given LISP a run for its money regarding KISSiness! How about APL? Sure, SQL sorta survived but that's mostly - me thinks - due to the fact no set algebra or calculus products (other than LEAP) have seen the light of day. Well... either that, or it's marketing! Sure, you could make the argument that SQL rules the day coz it's way more KISS than either hierarchical (like IMS) or network (think DBTG) databases, but it isn't as KISS as KISS can be! A thing like LEAP beats it hands down. And whistling dixie to boot. Again I find it more likely to presume that SQL (and Sequel and QBE) came at just the right time with just the right note to carry the day. Sure, they are KISS. But back in '80 nobody and I do mean nobody - barring the odd sole ;) - looked at it. Never mind believed in it! Still they all ended up using it. Because of simplicity? Maybe. 't would be nice to think so . Roelof -- toying @ http://surug.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 19:43:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB4A837B491 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 45910 invoked by uid 100); 1 Feb 2001 03:42:51 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14968.56122.941575.354322@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:42:50 -0600 (CST) To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Mike Meyer , "Albert D. Cahalan" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT: non-Unix history (Was: FreeBSD vs linux) In-Reply-To: <3A78D708.5F5873C8@nisser.com> References: <14957.31196.939559.889627@guru.mired.org> <3A6F43F7.E43C6CA0@nisser.com> <14959.23870.728403.859934@guru.mired.org> <3A78BA39.8A14F8F@nisser.com> <14968.49854.189652.128754@guru.mired.org> <3A78D708.5F5873C8@nisser.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Roelof Osinga types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > I've moved this to -chat, as it's off topic for -questions. > Fine, but I unsubscribed chat some time ago. So? > > ... > > I would suggest you read the full thing before commenting on it. Both > > approaches described in Gabriel paper are KISS approaches. I don't > > know of any names to describe them, other than the ones used there. At > > least one of those - Do The Right Thing - is in common use, but I'm > > not sure if that's where it originated. > Proper suggestion, but who has the time to read 'all'? Anyway, I've > been told KISS originated (at least) as a term used by the US infantry > - genie troops - during WW2. Well, if you want to discuss the paper, it behooves you to read it. > > Exactly - what are you looking at? Remeber, an OS - or a programming > > language - may be a product, but it's not a solution. It's a tool for > That, too, is a boundary question. If the goal is world peace and no > more hunger all the rest are mere products... Ah, so you're moving from solutions to goals, huh? In that case, it's all irrelevant. > > I'm not sure what you think they meant by CL, but they actually meant > > Common Lisp. Both CL and Scheme came from the LISP community, and had > > a LISP-like syntax on an Algol-like structure. > Not quite. At least, as far as I know. My first introduction(s) to > CS was by a book about designing TTL (and core :) computers as well > as one by a Dutch professor about teaching Algol '68. For Scheme, I was quoting the R[n]RS, which describe Scheme as an Algol-like language. > Now Algol was about block structures, something traditional. So was Scheme. > John > McCarthy's LISP OTOH was about Lambda calculus. Though not Typed > Lambda Calculus whereas Algol was in fact typed. In as far as typing > went in those days. Mind you, polymorphism and overloading were > concepts introduced in the early '60s. Yup, shortly after objects. > CL is LISP extended and standardized as far as can be. Not KISS. > Scheme, in contrast, just took one aspect of LISP - can't remember > which, most likely closures - and extended just that. That is KISS. I wouldn't call it extended. They left out some of the more interesting features of INTERLISP, for one. They also said explicitly that everything was statically scoped, whereas the previous major LISPs had been statically scoped when compiled, but dynamically scoped when interpreted. In that sense, CL is simpler than it's predecessors. Scheme, on the other hand, tended to add power by removing restrictions instead of adding features. At least until they tried to add macros. > > Well, of course worse is better says that KISS will win the battle - > > both methodologies are KISS methodologies. > Yeah, well, when Windows gets mentioned... I thought Windows was winning the marketing battle because it provided the simplest solutions for the user? Ain't that just KISS again? > > They only say the same thing if you never use tools you didn't create > > yourself. > Well, maybe. But some of the things you ascribe to Windows could also > be ascribed to, say, MVS. I tend to look at some of those 'success > stories' as signs of the times. More a matter of fashion and timing > than anything else. Not to mention location. Just imagine Bill Gates > having been born in Beijing! He would've been (materially) successful, > no doubt! But... If you ask the DOJ, they're the result of monopolistic marketing tactics. So what? > > In '93, there were more VMS systems around than any single Unix > > platform. Sure, there may have been more Unix systems, but you > > couldn't write a "Unix version" of a competitive product and sell > > that, you had to have a SunOS version, and a Solaris version, and an > > HP version, and an Ultrix version, and an OSF version, and a MIPS > > version, and .... > Hm. In that same '93 we also had the heralded - by Bill Gates, no > less! - OS/2 besides DOS and Windows 3.x. So you were saying? That, contrary to your claim, Unix didn't rule. You might be able to claim that the Unices ruled. > > These days, VMS seems to have been replaced by NT, whereas a few of > > the Unix versions are gone, and have been replaced by various Linux > > distributions and of course the BSDs. > As have DOS, OS/2, Win-16x, Win CE, Win... Let's face it, porting > "Windows" apps is breaking glass, mostly. I wouldn't know - I don't do windows. I'd rather sell cars for a living. > I'm just pointing out, at least in this message, that there's a > whole world of differences between a technical point of view and > a marketing point of view. Well, why didn't you say so? That's an obvious point. Both papers were reflecting on how marketing affected technical competitions. > We can debate the impact of Algol not having had the equivalent of > LISP's EVAL() statement to our hearts content, yet would that > statement - or even the design principles underlying the choice > of whether or not to include that statement - account for the > advent of C or Pascal. Neither of which have an EVAL() statement, > b.t.w. BASIC could've had! Heck, even COBOL. I'd actually rather not. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 22:16:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 75B2F37B699 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 50558 invoked by uid 1114); 1 Feb 2001 06:16:35 -0000 Date: 31 Jan 2001 22:16:35 -0800 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:16:35 -0800 (PST) From: Ceren Ercen To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Report from LinuxWorld Expo In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010131194647.00db6ba0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >... booths and NO conference sessions were devoted to anything BSD-ish. One > of the booths was BSDi's, which was huge -- but also a bit corporate and > sterile, despite the presence of two "daemon babes" who were posing for > pictures with passers by. It must have cost a bundle, but the austere > booth didn't attract very much foot traffic. I think that the old booth, > while it was a bit cramped, was more down-to-earth and friendly. Well, I have to state that I'm distinctly dissapointed that I'm not there. ;) I could _double_ the traffic. Easy. Without blinking. Lemme at 'em. *grin* Ceren E. FreeBSD's "Strange Attractor" The daemonbabe that *can* operate a terminal. p.s.: anyone wanna save me from this Turbolinux merger? aiiee. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 23: 2:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (mailer.cse.iitd.ac.in [202.141.68.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C394737B491 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 23:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from abheri.cse.iitd.ernet.in (csu96154@abheri.cse.iitd.ernet.in [10.20.13.22]) by desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07750 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:34:55 +0530 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:35:07 +0530 (IST) From: Rakhesh Sasidharan X-Sender: csu96154@abheri.cse.iitd.ernet.in To: "chat@FreeBSD.org" Subject: running multiple BSDs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Does anyone here have any experience running Open, Net and Free BSD together ? No specific reasons, I just wanted to try all of them out, and have plenty of hard-disk space available. :) My main problem was with the disklabels of all three ... and since I didn't know which particular list I could ask this to, I am writing here. Regards. __ Rakhesh Sasidharan rakhesh@cse.iitd.ac.in To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 31 23:12: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.org (adsl-64-169-104-72.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACB437B503 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 23:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C2753BA0CB; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 23:12:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 23:12:17 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Ceren Ercen Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Report from LinuxWorld Expo Message-ID: <20010131231217.B70568@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010131194647.00db6ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="St7VIuEGZ6dlpu13" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ceren@magnesium.net on Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 10:16:35PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --St7VIuEGZ6dlpu13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 10:16:35PM -0800, Ceren Ercen wrote: > >... booths and NO conference sessions were devoted to anything BSD-ish. > One=20 > > of the booths was BSDi's, which was huge -- but also a bit corporate an= d=20 > > sterile, despite the presence of two "daemon babes" who were posing for= =20 > > pictures with passers by. It must have cost a bundle, but the austere= =20 > > booth didn't attract very much foot traffic. I think that the old booth= ,=20 > > while it was a bit cramped, was more down-to-earth and friendly. >=20 > Well, I have to state that I'm distinctly dissapointed that I'm not there. > ;) >=20 > I could _double_ the traffic. Easy. Without blinking. Your eyes would probably get pretty dry without blinking. Kris --St7VIuEGZ6dlpu13 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6eQxQWry0BWjoQKURAl0PAKDRy5QSnMcf6Jmf8PbfAyrz5uTiJQCeJTUC T+/X97hmCVLIs7r+hzcqt9o= =vUti -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --St7VIuEGZ6dlpu13-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 0: 5:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.babug.org (unknown [205.166.121.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2AC37B503 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 00:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.babug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA59022 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 00:05:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200102010805.AAA59022@agora.babug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 00:05:00 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 0:26:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3130B37B4EC for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 00:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14OF2i-0008wy-00; Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:24:36 +0000 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:24:36 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Mike Meyer , "Albert D. Cahalan" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT: non-Unix history (Was: FreeBSD vs linux) Message-ID: <20010201082436.F70673@hand.dotat.at> References: <14957.31196.939559.889627@guru.mired.org> <3A6F43F7.E43C6CA0@nisser.com> <14959.23870.728403.859934@guru.mired.org> <3A78BA39.8A14F8F@nisser.com> <14968.49854.189652.128754@guru.mired.org> <3A78D708.5F5873C8@nisser.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A78D708.5F5873C8@nisser.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Roelof Osinga wrote: >Mike Meyer wrote: >> >> I'm not sure what you think they meant by CL, but they actually meant >> Common Lisp. Both CL and Scheme came from the LISP community, and had >> a LISP-like syntax on an Algol-like structure. > >Now Algol was about block structures, something traditional. John >McCarthy's LISP OTOH was about Lambda calculus. Though not Typed >Lambda Calculus whereas Algol was in fact typed. In as far as typing >went in those days. Mind you, polymorphism and overloading were >concepts introduced in the early '60s. > >CL is LISP extended and standardized as far as can be. Not KISS. >Scheme, in contrast, just took one aspect of LISP - can't remember >which, most likely closures - and extended just that. That is KISS. The point about Common Lisp and Scheme being Algol-like is that they have lexically scoped local variables, whereas traditional LISP (and Emacs Lisp) have dynamically scoped variables. Scheme was a simplification of Lisp based on more modern computer science, in terms of theory, specification, and implementation. The implementation idea was continuation-passing -- see Guy L Steele's "LAMBDA: The Ultimate foo" papers. http://www.ai.mit.edu/publications/bibliography/BIB-online.html Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "If I didn't see it with my own eyes I would never have believed it!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 4:11:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E46B37B503 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 04:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA03440; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 05:10:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010201050924.04900740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 05:10:41 -0700 To: Ceren Ercen From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Report from LinuxWorld Expo Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010131194647.00db6ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's the spirit! Yes, the lovely Ms. Ercen was missed and was inquired about by some visitors. I'm sure she could have helped with the general lack of "buzz" around the booth. --Brett At 11:16 PM 1/31/2001, Ceren Ercen wrote: >>... booths and NO conference sessions were devoted to anything BSD-ish. >One >> of the booths was BSDi's, which was huge -- but also a bit corporate and >> sterile, despite the presence of two "daemon babes" who were posing for >> pictures with passers by. It must have cost a bundle, but the austere >> booth didn't attract very much foot traffic. I think that the old booth, >> while it was a bit cramped, was more down-to-earth and friendly. > >Well, I have to state that I'm distinctly dissapointed that I'm not there. >;) > >I could _double_ the traffic. Easy. Without blinking. > >Lemme at 'em. *grin* > > > >Ceren E. >FreeBSD's "Strange Attractor" >The daemonbabe that *can* operate a terminal. >p.s.: anyone wanna save me from this Turbolinux merger? aiiee. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 6:51:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c0039.upc-c.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4909137B684 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 06:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA59656; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:50:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <3A7977CE.7953A70B@nisser.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:50:54 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: Nisser - Nr. 1 in Veiligheid X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: "Albert D. Cahalan" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT: non-Unix history (Was: FreeBSD vs linux) References: <14957.31196.939559.889627@guru.mired.org> <3A6F43F7.E43C6CA0@nisser.com> <14959.23870.728403.859934@guru.mired.org> <3A78BA39.8A14F8F@nisser.com> <14968.49854.189652.128754@guru.mired.org> <3A78D708.5F5873C8@nisser.com> <14968.56122.941575.354322@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > Well, if you want to discuss the paper, it behooves you to read it. You are right. In order to do it justice I should've taken the time to read instead of glimpse it. As well as think before I type. My apologies. Roelof PS the reason I responded too quickly was that it was interesting! -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Nisser home -- http://www.Nisser.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 7:29:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c0039.upc-c.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FCAA37B698 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 07:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA59805; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:28:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <3A79808C.29BACD85@nisser.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:28:12 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: Nisser - Nr. 1 in Veiligheid X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch Cc: Mike Meyer , "Albert D. Cahalan" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT: non-Unix history (Was: FreeBSD vs linux) References: <14957.31196.939559.889627@guru.mired.org> <3A6F43F7.E43C6CA0@nisser.com> <14959.23870.728403.859934@guru.mired.org> <3A78BA39.8A14F8F@nisser.com> <14968.49854.189652.128754@guru.mired.org> <3A78D708.5F5873C8@nisser.com> <20010201082436.F70673@hand.dotat.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch wrote: > > ... > The point about Common Lisp and Scheme being Algol-like is that they > have lexically scoped local variables, whereas traditional LISP (and > Emacs Lisp) have dynamically scoped variables. Algol was too long ago, for me. Also the TLC project was frozen in '98 or so. Since when I've hardly looked at language design. > Scheme was a simplification of Lisp based on more modern computer > science, in terms of theory, specification, and implementation. The > implementation idea was continuation-passing -- see Guy L Steele's > "LAMBDA: The Ultimate foo" papers. > > http://www.ai.mit.edu/publications/bibliography/BIB-online.html The nice thing about virual 'to read' stacks is that they don't tumble so quickly . Continuation passing was also used in ML. I compiled to CAM but mostly FPM. Since it was intended to be strict anyway. Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Nisser home -- http://www.Nisser.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 10:37: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB6537B65D for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14OObD-000O4f-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:36:51 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f11Iaoo77181 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:36:50 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:36:50 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: software development tools - microsoft and unix Message-ID: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems if there is one thing Microsoft does well, it is providing powerful development tools. If you ignore the fact that they use proprietary language extensions, what is the problem with these tools? They have taken the industry by storm, and even Kdevelop has tried to clone the Visual studio look and feel. What have I missed? Is there any real flaw in the tools that explains why similar tools have not appeared as open source in the unix world, or am I just unaware of them? Are there any unix tools that are evolving as quickly, that allow easy creation of COM objects, GUIs, etc.? I am sure someone will argue that they produce bloated code, but it appears that really is not an issue anymore. It seems almost every developer uses these standard tools, and the code size has become accepted. jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Steven Wright | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 11:20:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5DDD37B65D for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 84682 invoked by uid 100); 1 Feb 2001 19:20:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14969.46822.129062.146954@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:20:06 -0600 (CST) To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix In-Reply-To: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > It seems if there is one thing Microsoft does well, it is providing powerful > development tools. If you ignore the fact that they use proprietary > language extensions, what is the problem with these tools? They only run on Windows, which to unfriendly an environment for me to work in regularly. Note that this is my evaluation of working in Windows, *not* a gratuitous slam at Windows. Clearly, others disagree with me. > What have I missed? Is there any real flaw in the tools that explains why > similar tools have not appeared as open source in the unix world, or am I > just unaware of them? I think it's a combination of things. I've been told that the Windows APIs are nearly impossible to deal with "by hand", whereas I've found the Unix ones are quite reasonable. Personally, I'm not convinced these GUI builders actually save any time over something as simple as canned templates and high-level libraries - at least when dealing with Unix GUI systems. Of course, that you have to deal with Unix GUI systemS, not just one GUI, is probably relevant. > Are there any unix tools that are evolving as quickly, that allow easy > creation of COM objects, GUIs, etc.? I haven't been following them, but there were commercial products to do GUI kinds of thing available in the early '90s. Personally, I went with the open source tools that provide easy GUI building interfaces, but not GUIs to build things. DECWRL's Draw! comes to mind. There was also a Motif specific tool of some kind. As for COM objects, I've found that doing CORBA by hand is pretty painless. Especially when writing in a high-level OO to start with, and not C or C++. > I am sure someone will argue that they produce bloated code, but it appears > that really is not an issue anymore. It seems almost every developer uses > these standard tools, and the code size has become accepted. While that's true on Windows, my experience is that Unix users have higher expectations; that's why they are Unix users. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 11:41:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cocoa.globalgold.co.uk (cocoa.globalgold.co.uk [212.250.240.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3D137B698; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from stephen (tnt-18-68.easynet.co.uk [212.134.224.68]) by cocoa.globalgold.co.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA08633; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:03:06 GMT From: "Mailer" To: Subject: Win a top of the range iMac, Palm Pilot or Discman Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:58:28 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C08C80.F6699130" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C08C80.F6699130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Connect to your future and start 2001 as a winner Win a top of the range iMac, Palm Pilot or Discman All you have to do to win is register with planetgraduate, the new international site for students, graduates and employers. 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------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C08C80.F6699130-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 11:42:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6798C37B6A0 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14OPcl-000LQn-00; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:42:31 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f11JgU080476; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:42:30 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:42:30 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix Message-ID: <20010201194230.A77920@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <14969.46822.129062.146954@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <14969.46822.129062.146954@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 01:20:06PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | As for COM objects, I've found that doing CORBA by hand is pretty | painless. Especially when writing in a high-level OO to start with, | and not C or C++. Then what other languages are you referring to? | > I am sure someone will argue that they produce bloated code, but it appears | > that really is not an issue anymore. It seems almost every developer uses | > these standard tools, and the code size has become accepted. | | While that's true on Windows, my experience is that Unix users have | higher expectations; that's why they are Unix users. Good one... :) jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Steven Wright | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 12:23: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ska.bsn (CPE-144-132-209-248.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.209.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B6E37B684 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from juju.bsn (juju.bsn [192.168.1.5]) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA57201 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:23:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from andy@ska.bsn) Received: (from andy@localhost) by juju.bsn (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f11KMlq84246 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:22:47 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <200102012022.f11KMlq84246@juju.bsn> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:22:47 +1100 (EST) From: Andy Newman Reply-To: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: silly C style question To: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <200101241124.f0OBOgm22341@dungeon.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24 Jan, Stephen McKay wrote: > Imported from Basser Department of Computer Science, University of Sydney? > Piers Lauder was mad keen on this diabolical but extremely logical indenting > scheme. And Tim Long* wrote the paper on it, appeared in AUUGN in the mid-1980s or there abouts and was re-published about five years ago. Very funny piece (the tone of the article is hilarious). I worked with Tim for a significant amount of time (hello Iain :) and our development group adopted the style below. The thing it is attempting to do is aid comprehension by allowing the "visual lexemes" to stand apart and easily discerned. Of course this is a very subjective thing, as the various "wars" of coding style show, however over many years of trying nearly every possible style of code layout (naming conventions and brace styles, etc...) I have found this style the best for overall readability. It applies a visual structuring similar to what we do for control flow to the terms/factors of expressions. It's takes a little pragmatism though - you don't willy nilly add vertical whitespace, it's added to break up dense clumps of punctuation glyphs that hide the shapes of the words we're trying to read. (we got rid of any unnecessary parentheses and less whitespace when indenting in our version of the style below). > > Example: > > if > ( > (id->id_type == NULL) > || > ( > (id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) > && > (item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) > && > (id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) > && > (id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS) > ) > ) > ... * Tim did a lot of work on BSD and Unix in the early 1980s. Look on the list of people named on the USENIX award for the BSD work. -- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 14:40: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4880037B65D for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA33686; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:39:28 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdZ0xXia; Thu Feb 1 15:39:21 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17765; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:39:26 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102012239.PAA17765@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:39:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Feb 01, 2001 06:36:50 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It seems if there is one thing Microsoft does well, it is providing powerful > development tools. If you ignore the fact that they use proprietary > language extensions, what is the problem with these tools? They have taken > the industry by storm, and even Kdevelop has tried to clone the Visual > studio look and feel. > > What have I missed? Is there any real flaw in the tools that explains why > similar tools have not appeared as open source in the unix world, or am I > just unaware of them? There are flaws in the system to which the tools are targetted, which /partially/ explains why similar tools have not appeared. The number one problem with Windows is that you can not post-mortem a failure. Without a core image at the time of the failure, you can't get a stack traceback at the failure point. In general, the Windows tools handle this by having the programmer remember where the failure was (step N), and repeat the process up to just before the failure (step N-1), and then examine things. This failing, by itself, drove simple debugger restart, region breakpoints, and similar debugger innovations. A secondary problem with Windows, which is _not_ common to all versions (which is why many shops choose to develope on NT), is that it is really not a true protected mode OS. Because of this, there are regions where it is possible for an application to corrupt the system itself, and cause a failure. At that point, knowing the start of the region where the failure was (which the Windows debugger normally tracks as a one-behind, through call traps) really does you no good: you are back to remembering the step of the failure, and going back to step N-1. A similar problem is a lack of failure on NULL pointer dereference, which is generally one of the most common coding errors -- most particularly, by the people who learned to program in environments where it is not uniformly fatal. Another Windows problem is the same as a VMS problem, which is that compilaton with debugging results in a serious preterbation of failure cases. In VMS, it was quite common to link something with debugging, and have the problem disappear. In general, this means that array overflows of stack variables, which would normally trash the stack to fatality on a UNIX system, and similarly, any dereferences which were out of data range, but which now return debugging data, now that the data space has increased, will shield another common programming mistake. This mistake is quite common for new programmers, who are not used to the concept of an option base of zero, or of NUL termination of strings requiring array space in the array (string) declaration. Finally, there is also the historical (and now defunct) competition in the tools space, which has driven them to be better than each other, where users would not have demanded it (and here we see a nice example of why the ability to wield monopolistic power in a market is bad for consumers). If I had to characterize the existance of such tools in one sentence, I would say that they were compensation for the failings of the target OS. > Are there any unix tools that are evolving as quickly, that allow easy > creation of COM objects, GUIs, etc.? There are some. Several good examples have actually been forced out of business (ask Warner about Object Interface Builder) through petty in-fighting among UNIX vendors. The big reason these thing don't show up often in Open Source is their relative cost, and compared to other tools in Windows, which the naieve will call "good tools", good tools in UNIX are very, very expensive, even relative to the cost of an OS license (BattleMap and Interactive Developement Environment's products are examples; for a single workstation license for BattleMap in 1990 or so, you were looking at $50,000 US). HP has a number of moderately good, if primitive, tools; so does DEC, though they are rather limited anywhere but VMS (guess that's Compaq, now). Web Methods has a number of tools; Rational software does as well. There are a couple of IDE offerings coming up in the UNIX space that are much cheaper, and appear as first-generation tries at a real IDE (look in the ports tree under developer tools for two of them). There is also a third generation/first generation hybrid, which is the Borland port of their environment to Linux, which I have not seen catching on. For the moral equivalent of COM object creation, etc., there are IDL compilers available for UNIX systems; they generally require, if your COM object equivalent is really an ActiveX control equivalent, use of MOTIF as the target for the code generation. Probably you should go to a search engine and look for the permutations of the terms "code generator", "code generation", "IDL", "IDE", "CASE", "UML", etc.. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 14:50:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F107337B491 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 91171 invoked by uid 100); 1 Feb 2001 22:50:09 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14969.59425.555502.367783@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:50:09 -0600 (CST) To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix In-Reply-To: <20010201194230.A77920@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <14969.46822.129062.146954@guru.mired.org> <20010201194230.A77920@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > | As for COM objects, I've found that doing CORBA by hand is pretty > | painless. Especially when writing in a high-level OO to start with, > | and not C or C++. > Then what other languages are you referring to? Personally, I use Python for CORBA stuff. Unless the thing I'm dealing with was already writtin in C, in which case I use that. Dealing with figuring out CORBA names in C is *not* painless. I also check every once and a while to see if one of the Eiffel ports has grown an ORB. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 14:54:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out-mx1.crosswinds.net (out-mx1.crosswinds.net [209.208.163.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD8137B491 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:54:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from member-mx1.crosswinds.net (member-mx1.crosswinds.net [209.208.163.43]) by out-mx1.crosswinds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA4D49088; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:54:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from lexx.my.domain (unknown [195.110.170.113]) by member-mx1.crosswinds.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B1F336431; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:54:03 -0500 (EST) From: John Murphy To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:55:09 +0000 Organization: not a lot.org Reply-To: john@T-F-I.freeserve.co.uk Message-ID: References: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > >It seems if there is one thing Microsoft does well, it is providing = powerful >development tools. If you ignore the fact that they use proprietary >language extensions, what is the problem with these tools? They have = taken >the industry by storm, and even Kdevelop has tried to clone the Visual >studio look and feel. Borland does it better and there's some excitement about Kylix on /. http://slashdot.org/articles/01/01/31/1634222.shtml Apparently there will be a "free" version later this year. There's also Glade (comes with the Gnome Desktop), probably very similar to Kdevelop, which I haven't looked at yet. John. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 15: 2:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58F3837B491 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2244F239AAB; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:02:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:02:37 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: egroups now Yahoo groups ??? cool Message-ID: <20010201150237.C656@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <3A78C7EC.D80A3D44@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A78C7EC.D80A3D44@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:20:28PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-01-31 21:20 -0500, "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > > I think of it as having less choice. I never really liked yahoo's > > implementations of their clubs. > > I tend to agree, there is a FreeBSD club that no one uses (I doubt the > linux club has more success). However I would love to be able to read > the BSD lists from my.yahoo . You can! They've been archived at eGroups for a long time (eGroups was a Linux and BSD shop; now they're just a BSD shop). For example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freebsd-hackers/ Yahoo! isn't really changing the service much; if you liked it in the months before the Yahoo! conversion, you'll continue to like it. Greg, former eGroups employee. -- Gregory S. Sutter Heisenberg might have been here. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 16:35:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.flex.ic5.net (pc7-ren13.cable.ntl.com [62.255.161.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57ED837B503 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from coda ([192.168.5.2]) by mail.flex.ic5.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA09905 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:35:03 GMT (envelope-from johnm@ic5.net) From: "John McGarrigle" To: Subject: DHClient.conf - Driving me nuts :) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:35:02 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, I know I keep turning to these lists for help, but heh, how else am I going to learn :) Basically, I want to know how to configure DHClient to ignore the DNS servers set by DHCP, but accept everything else (the IP etc)... just use the DNS servers I set in /etc/resolv.conf . I understand there is a line I can put in /etc/dhclient.conf, but I can't work out what it is :) The man page isnt much help either... ---- John 'Neuron' McGarrigle Email: johnm@ic5.net ICQ: 18220396 Phone: +44 (0)7944 604 644 ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 16:54:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FF637B4EC for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id SAA89779410 Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:53:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA47063; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:54:18 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: John McGarrigle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DHClient.conf - Driving me nuts :) Message-ID: <20010201165418.A47049@darkstar.gte.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from johnm@ic5.net on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:35:02AM -0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org something like: supercede domain-name-servers "1.2.3.4 1.2.3.4" man dhclient.conf [RC] On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:35:02AM -0000, John McGarrigle wrote: > Hey, > > I know I keep turning to these lists for help, but heh, how else am I going > to learn :) > > Basically, I want to know how to configure DHClient to ignore the DNS > servers set by DHCP, but accept everything else (the IP etc)... just use the > DNS servers I set in /etc/resolv.conf . I understand there is a line I can > put in /etc/dhclient.conf, but I can't work out what it is :) > > The man page isnt much help either... > > ---- > John 'Neuron' McGarrigle > Email: johnm@ic5.net > ICQ: 18220396 > Phone: +44 (0)7944 604 644 > ---- > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 17:56:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out-mx1.crosswinds.net (out-mx1.crosswinds.net [209.208.163.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E73937B491 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from member-mx1.crosswinds.net (member-mx1.crosswinds.net [209.208.163.43]) by out-mx1.crosswinds.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F14F494BD for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lexx.my.domain (unknown [195.110.170.112]) by member-mx1.crosswinds.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E4E836435 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:56:40 -0500 (EST) From: John Murphy To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Trash my new .sig Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 01:57:45 +0000 Organization: not a lot.org Reply-To: john@T-F-I.freeserve.co.uk Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have drunk. Kylix. --=20 That's one Giant Leap for [U|u]nix/Windows inter-operability, one small step for Borland/Inprise. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 21:29:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E34A37B491 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.15]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA56205; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:26:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 00:33:36 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes To: Gregory Sutter Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: Re: egroups now Yahoo groups ??? cool In-Reply-To: <20010201150237.C656@klapaucius.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yahoo! isn't really changing the service much; if you liked it in > the months before the Yahoo! conversion, you'll continue to like it. Enought for me to like it less than before. I am sure these changes are not for users benefit. They are to consolidate branding nothing else. They want you to see the Yahoo name longer.. that's all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 1 22:43:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FDD637B503 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA07880; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:42:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:57:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Francisco Reyes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: egroups now Yahoo groups ??? cool In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Yahoo! isn't really changing the service much; if you liked it in > > the months before the Yahoo! conversion, you'll continue to like it. > > Enought for me to like it less than before. I am sure these changes are > not for users benefit. They are to consolidate branding nothing else. > They want you to see the Yahoo name longer.. that's all. The domain makes the brand. It is such a vacuous distinction. I wonder what would happen if someone went way retro and handed out IP numbers. "Welcome to 192.168.23.45, your source for widgets!" (It would save hostmaster contacts a bunch of spam for one.) With names in .com running out, people are caming up with some _realllllly_ stupid ways to spell the name of a company. "zlfragzl.com, the best in online investing!" hehehe My beef is that it boogered up my filters. Damnit! Now I have several dozens of messages in the wrong mail box. :) And while we are griping... Why put news on the web? Slashbots abound. News is better for this type of thing. Why meld news and mail into a some web based conglomeration? (Rhetorical questions, no answer needed) I really prefer the seperation of the different mediums of internet communication. Lists are cool. News is cool. The web is cool. Mashing it all together, IMO, results in something that is less than the sum of the parts. I didn't particularly care for egroups. I used them because that is where the content I desired was disseminated. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 5:40:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8DF37B491 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14OgS2-000DRF-00; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:40:34 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f12DeXJ91388; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:40:33 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:40:33 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix Message-ID: <20010202134033.A91283@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102012239.PAA17765@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200102012239.PAA17765@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 10:39:25PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | A secondary problem with Windows, which is _not_ common to all | versions (which is why many shops choose to develope on NT), is | that it is really not a true protected mode OS. Because of this, Now that win2k is becoming established, and appears to be quite robust, what does this mean for the future of professional programming? It certainly makes the environment much more attractive to programmers who need that kind of stability. I've heard the TCP/IP performance is vastly improved as well. jonathon -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Steven Wright | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 6: 5:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F4437B491 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 06:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14Ogpl-000Fmp-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:05:05 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f12E55j91662 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:05:05 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:05:05 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: quote about open source Message-ID: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just read this remark by BEA Systems founder and former Sun VP William Coleman III: `The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' This is the first comment of this type I have ever heard. Any thoughts? jonathon -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Steven Wright | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 6:17:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F019D37B401 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 06:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f12EHR450799 ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:17:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA50255 ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:17:45 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:17:44 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quote about open source Message-ID: <20010202151744.O38235@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:05:05PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick said on Feb 2, 2001 at 14:05:05: > `The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open > source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because > open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going > on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' By that reasoning, there can't be innovation in science either, because it's always been "open source" -- share your ideas, publish them, etc. The idea of patenting scientific discoveries is pretty recent, and even so, the equivalent of "closed source" (hide your methods, reveal only your results) just doesn't exist -- because people know such things cannot be taken seriously. In physics, for some years now an online archive of electronic preprints (http://arxiv.org, with mirrors all around the world) has pretty much taken over from journals as the primary means of communicating ideas. You write up your work, send it there, and next day physicists all over the world will receive the abstracts on the daily mailing, or check it out on the web page, and can download the entire paper if they want -- and it's all completely free of charge, and no refereeing either. -- Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 7:28:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C083037B401 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04078; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:27:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010202082304.04a759b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 08:26:59 -0700 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: quote about open source In-Reply-To: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What's lacking under SOME open source licensing schemes -- i.e. the GPL -- is the incentive to invest a huge portion of one's life to making a major breakthrough. Under the GPL, at least, there's no incentive for a creative person OR his or her employer to do it. (Yes, folks talk about "innovative business models," but the bottom line is that this is just talk....) So, what you get is an accretion of bits and pieces that people hack up to fix small problems. Which is fine, but doesn't lend itself to fundamental technological breakthroughs. --Brett At 07:05 AM 2/2/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >I just read this remark by BEA Systems founder and former Sun VP William >Coleman III: > >`The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open >source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because >open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going >on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' > >This is the first comment of this type I have ever heard. Any thoughts? > >jonathon >-- >o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o >| "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Steven Wright | >o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 8:10:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.rdc1.il.home.com (mail1.rdc1.il.home.com [24.2.1.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C9037B699 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by mail1.rdc1.il.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010202161040.QJBR17995.mail1.rdc1.il.home.com@marx.marvic.chum> for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:10:40 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id KAA01547 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:14:37 -0600 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:14:37 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quote about open source Message-ID: <20010202101437.A1529@home.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:05:05PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 02:05:05PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > > I just read this remark by BEA Systems founder and former Sun VP William > Coleman III: > > `The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open > source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because > open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going > on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' > > This is the first comment of this type I have ever heard. Any thoughts? I have heard similar comments before. Basically, the people who work for large software companies, well the people that run large software companies, like to think that the proprietary model of software development is the only model that fosters innovation. What they are overlooking is that much of the current IT infrastructure is based on open source products. These products were innovative at the time they were created. There was nothing similar. In fact there are instances even today where open source software has new and interesting features long before proprietary software manages to include the same, or comperable features. Another point I want to make is that open source really puts the "science" in the term "computer science". The scientific method requires that information be easily obtainable so that theories can be tested. This is impossible in the proprietary world. Now ask yourself, do you really think the scientific method is that wrong? -- Victor R. Cardona GnuPG Key fingerprint = 62B1 7995 A830 432C 74E8 1337 EDDB E682 3C76 7404 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 8:17:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D6E4937B69B for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23515 invoked by uid 100); 2 Feb 2001 16:16:54 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14970.56694.347744.749982@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:16:54 -0600 (CST) To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: quote about open source In-Reply-To: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > > I just read this remark by BEA Systems founder and former Sun VP William > Coleman III: > > `The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open > source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because > open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going > on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' > > This is the first comment of this type I have ever heard. Any thoughts? Didn't someone at MS essentially claim the same thing in the halloween letters? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 8:27:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE2937B4EC for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA37233; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:25:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quote about open source References: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Feb 2001 17:25:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: j mckitrick's message of "Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:05:05 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > I just read this remark by BEA Systems founder and former Sun VP William > Coleman III: > > `The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open > source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because > open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going > on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' > > This is the first comment of this type I have ever heard. Any thoughts? William Coleman III has a legal obligation to fight open source, since it is highly detrimental to the company's bottom line and hence to the dividends paid to its shareholders (this wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have such an idiotic software licensing policy, but I guess they're not ready to face *that* fact). If he can't do this by coopting the open source community (does anyone really believe Sun's community license bears any similarity to a real open source license?), he'll do it by slamming it. The concept of innovation is almost sacred in the US, so if he can make it appear that open source stifles innovation, it'll pretty much be branded as an "unamerican activity" (yes, I know there is no longer a House of Unamerican Activities, but the concept lives on in people's minds) and people will start equating it with communism (of course, Richard Stallman's attitude doesn't help - does he realise that he's his own worst enemy?) and satanism and god knows what, and pretty soon you'll see kids getting suspended from school for participating in open-source projects just like they're now getting suspended for wearing black clothes, listening to Nine Inch Nails or Rammstein, or playing Quake. The fact that innovation cannot happen without open exchange of ideas, of course, is totally irrelevant to this discussion. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 11:39:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE0937B491 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08628; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:33:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAAmaymp; Fri Feb 2 12:32:16 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12023; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:36:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102021936.MAA12023@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: egroups now Yahoo groups ??? cool To: jcwells@nwlink.com (Jason C. Wells) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:36:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: fran@reyes.somos.net (Francisco Reyes), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Feb 01, 2001 10:57:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The domain makes the brand. It is such a vacuous distinction. I disagree. Despite the work of DNSINT, I think that exposed domain names may in fact go away at some point. The value of a domain name today is pretty much non-existant, as far as Internet space goes, since if you come in to a default portal page, you just search for what you want, and then click out to it via a link. Alternately, you use your "favorites" or "bookmarks", and click out that way. There isn't really any domain name typing involved, unless you pack-rat things to the point of being unable to find the ones you want easily. I would be really interested in statistics on browsers, to know what percentage have the "show location" region enabled vs. disabled, but of course the browser morons aren't really thinking of useful information like that, and would prefer to instrument things that let them know your surfing patterns, since their interest is in pushing advertising to you, not improving the medium. There is a nice example of this: the IETF working group DNSINT was founded to allow the use of native languages in host names; the true reasons for wanting this are to support non-linkable objects in print, radio, television, and business card based advertising. The actual effect of this, particularly given the unvarnished hatred the Japanese have for Unicode (due mostly to it's use of Chinese dictionary order for the CJK unification), will be to balkanize the domain name space into regions which require character-set specific input methods, not available to most people outside a given region. A secondary effect will be to tie DNS namespaces loosely to geopolitical controls; this allows the Chinese, for instance, to put ideological controls into effect on their borders. These are reall all emergent properties, but it makes my point, that the domain/brand duality isn't quite as clear-cut as people think; "common sense" really doesn't get you the right answer. > I wonder what would happen if someone went way retro and handed > out IP numbers. "Welcome to 192.168.23.45, your source for > widgets!" (It would save hostmaster contacts a bunch of spam > for one.) Actually, you can send mail to "hostmaster@[192.168.23.45]", no problem; see RFC 821 and the followon RFC's. The best place to do this is the RFC pages at http://208.184.76.42/ 8-) 8-). > I really prefer the seperation of the different mediums of internet > communication. Lists are cool. News is cool. The web is cool. Mashing > it all together, IMO, results in something that is less than the sum of > the parts. It's called "federation". You should look at the O'Reilly project which federates news outlets. It lets them take XML article descriptions, and provide them out there in a federated list, whic is then displayed as "headlines" or "recent news" or whatever. If you think about it, it's only a matter of time until article rating on user postings are federated along with several standard news outlets to provide an article stream personalized for a user (in fact, non-rated auto-rating criteria engines are likely to be a "next big thing" in this area -- remember that I have prior art on this!). That means that you really don't care if it was email to a list which you subscribe to, a posting to a news group you subscribe to, or the result of an ABC News "in depth" report: as long as it meets your "worth noticing" criteria, you probably want it shown on your "mynewspaper" page. I'll agree that unicast email (email sent directly to you) in all likelihood does not belong in the same place as your "broadcast" mail subscriptions. > I didn't particularly care for egroups. I used them because that is where > the content I desired was disseminated. The real value in these things today really lies solely in the fact that they maintain large archives. As storageless web access devices become more popular (yea! The death of cookies!), the ability to go in and look at "what's going on today", and then traverse back into the archives will be more useful (not to mention access via a mobile device with limited bandwidth, perhaps via SMS, being aided by downloading headers but not bodies -- shades of NNTP and IMAP4 clients, and to a lesser extent, the POP3 "HEAD" command...). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 11:40:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (unknown [216.152.64.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5639E37B503 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:39:57 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "j mckitrick" , Subject: RE: quote about open source Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:40:00 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I just read this remark by BEA Systems founder and former Sun VP William > Coleman III: > > `The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open > source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because > open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going > on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' > > This is the first comment of this type I have ever heard. Any thoughts? This remark is not comprehensible using any language, grammar, or syntax I am aware of. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 12: 0:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF9D37B491 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA20291; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:54:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAFnayPM; Fri Feb 2 12:53:26 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12520; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:57:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102021957.MAA12520@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:57:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010202134033.A91283@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Feb 02, 2001 01:40:33 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > | A secondary problem with Windows, which is _not_ common to all > | versions (which is why many shops choose to develope on NT), is > | that it is really not a true protected mode OS. Because of this, > > Now that win2k is becoming established, and appears to be quite robust, what > does this mean for the future of professional programming? It certainly > makes the environment much more attractive to programmers who need that kind > of stability. I've heard the TCP/IP performance is vastly improved as well. This is a misconception. The value of a protected mode OS for a user is, in fact, stability. The value of a protected mode OS for a developer, who will only be running a limited set of known tools, is more in how rigidly the OS enforces _all_ boundaries. For example, it is not particularly useful to trap a NULL pointer dereference in a production user's environment. Sure, you crash only the offending program, but the user loses work, or at best, fails to accomplish work. In a developement environment, the only option on a failed NULL pointer dereference is to correct the failure. The result is code which will not fail when moved to a production setting. A secondary issue for the production environment is resource tracking. The common FIN-WAIT-2 problem, caused by bad Windows clients, is a resource tracking problem, having to do with WINSOCK being implemented in user space, so that resources can not be tracked by the OS (specifically: socket descriptors). It's actually possible, in a resource tracking OS, to have a mode where the close call on a socket causes console messages, and complains if "shutdown" was not called. If this is done, when the code is then recompiled for the non-protected mode OS, then you can know that it won't have this failure mode. Again, the result is better code. Right now, neither NT nor FreeBSD support this level of interface enforcement, though they are protected mode OSs (I personally would implement them as a "SIGBUG", which was by default ignored, so that a debugger/audit program could trap the code problems and report them to the programmer, et least as a UNIX implementation). The point is rather that this level of enforcement is completely impossible in a non-protected mode OS. For the same reasons, "purify" can't run without OS assistance, so on OSs where the assistance is unavailable, it either has a reduced functionality, or it simply is not available. For example, it's a kernel tuning variable on SVR4 whether or not, when a NULL pointer dereference occurs, a zeroed page is mapped into page zero, or a fault is generated; by default, a new page is mapped. A program like "purify", looking for NULL pointer dereferences, will either require that this be tuned and recompiled (but there are many important system programs that stupidly dereference NULL pointers), or have to step through the program, and notice the automatic handling of the fault by watching the page map (something that is available through procfs on SVR4, and should be available on BSD). Ideally, your OS would inherently have "purify" features that don't require preprocessing (e.g. array bounds checking), to the extent that it could. Really, you want your OS to be as rigid as possible when it is enforcing things; then when you go to production (perhaps on a different OS), you can be assured that your program will work. I remember the controversy when we started unmapping page zero, but I also know that we got better code as a result of having done that. It would be really nice, for example, if FreeBSD could turn off all interfaces which were not common between it and other UNIX OSs. That would mean that you could immediately switch all your UNIX developement to FreeBSD, and be certain that the resulting program would compile and run on all other UNIX platforms. PS: This is largely a rehash of a source-level equivalent to my argument for a FABIO developement environment. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 12:16:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A606937B491 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010202201607.LJFB18404.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:16:07 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14Omcp-0009SH-00; Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:16:07 +0000 Content-Length: 564 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010123141641.Q92905@hand.dotat.at> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:16:07 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Tony Finch , chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD gathering in San Francisco Cc: Gregory Sutter Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, Just a note to remind you to come along to the impromptu BSD enthusiasts' gathering 21st Amendment 2nd St at Brannan St San Francisco, CA, US Tues, Feb 6, 2001, 18:30. I'll be along wearing a Dutch hackers fest T-shirt (as long as I get up at 4am Saturday to go to the airport) Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 12:19:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800B437B401 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:19:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07927; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:17:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010202130742.049c8a00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 13:17:46 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200102021957.MAA12520@usr08.primenet.com> References: <20010202134033.A91283@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:57 PM 2/2/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >This is a misconception. The value of a protected mode OS for >a user is, in fact, stability. > >The value of a protected mode OS for a developer, who will only >be running a limited set of known tools, is more in how rigidly >the OS enforces _all_ boundaries. > >For example, it is not particularly useful to trap a NULL pointer >dereference in a production user's environment. Sure, you crash >only the offending program, but the user loses work, or at best, >fails to accomplish work. > >In a developement environment, the only option on a failed NULL >pointer dereference is to correct the failure. The result is >code which will not fail when moved to a production setting. Hence the notion that such checks should "fail hard" during testing and "fail soft" during operation. [SNIP] >Ideally, your OS would inherently have "purify" features that >don't require preprocessing (e.g. array bounds checking), to >the extent that it could. As I recall, Andy Hertzfeld was a strong advocate of building this into MacOS -- but to be used only during testing and development. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 12:58: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3E6D37B401 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 33375 invoked by uid 100); 2 Feb 2001 20:57:49 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14971.8013.207833.341184@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:57:49 -0600 (CST) To: Terry Lambert Cc: jcwells@nwlink.com (Jason C. Wells), fran@reyes.somos.net (Francisco Reyes), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: egroups now Yahoo groups ??? cool In-Reply-To: <200102021936.MAA12023@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200102021936.MAA12023@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > I would be really interested in statistics on browsers, to know > what percentage have the "show location" region enabled vs. > disabled, but of course the browser morons aren't really thinking > of useful information like that, and would prefer to instrument > things that let them know your surfing patterns, since their > interest is in pushing advertising to you, not improving the > medium. You can estimate that to better than 10%, by knowing that most users never reconfigure *anything*. I think Netscape and IE have it on by default (but I'm not sure), which would mean that most of the 95% of the browser populace they make up will have it on. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 13:15:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5616837B4EC for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 33888 invoked by uid 100); 2 Feb 2001 21:15:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14971.9050.366271.20250@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:15:06 -0600 (CST) To: Terry Lambert Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix In-Reply-To: <200102021957.MAA12520@usr08.primenet.com> References: <20010202134033.A91283@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102021957.MAA12520@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > Right now, neither NT nor FreeBSD support this level of interface > enforcement, though they are protected mode OSs (I personally > would implement them as a "SIGBUG", which was by default > ignored, so that a debugger/audit program could trap the code > problems and report them to the programmer, et least as a UNIX > implementation). The point is rather that this level of > enforcement is completely impossible in a non-protected mode > OS. I've been told that Windows developers have (had?) a version or option to cause the Windows APIs to verify their arguments, and complain if they weren't in the valid range. The problem with using it was that you then couldn't do anything else, because pretty much every application screwed up in some way or another. Hence Bill Gates can claim with a straight face that Windows doesn't have any bugs, it's all application bugs. > It would be really nice, for example, if FreeBSD could turn off > all interfaces which were not common between it and other UNIX > OSs. That would mean that you could immediately switch all > your UNIX developement to FreeBSD, and be certain that the > resulting program would compile and run on all other UNIX > platforms. Well, doing that system-wide sounds a bit painful - how many system applications would quit working? Doing it on a per-binary basis would be nearly as useful, and seems very doable, at least for the kernel. Use the kernel emulator facilities, and add an emulator that traps all non-standard calls. You can then check your programs by running them in that emulator. With a little more work, you could check all the calls and make sure the arguments were valid. Libraries are a bit more interesting. You'd need to verify that only standard library calls were used to insure you didn't use a non-standard library API, and then make sure those library functions didn't use a non-standard system call to avoid catching the kernel trap. That could potentially involve rewriting large chunks of the libraries :-(. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 13:47:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F017937B401 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dorado.freebsd.org (user-24-214-88-8.knology.net [24.214.88.8]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f12LlXo05625 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:47:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (from steve@localhost) by dorado.freebsd.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f12LlS247337 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:47:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from steve) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:47:28 -0600 From: Steve Price To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: per machine access logs in Apache Message-ID: <20010202154728.I15902@dorado.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone come up with a slick way of getting per machine access logs in Apache? Here's the scenario so that the question will make more sense. I have two servers load balancing a number of virtual hosts. Each of the website's files (including the access logs) are on another box. The webservers NFS-mount the appropriate directories to gain access to the files it needs. The problem I'm seeing is that since each webserver runs on a different machine I get garbled output in the logs. This is to be expected of course because Apache doesn't know about multiple machines writing to the log, rather only multiple processes on the same box which is why all logging is done through the master server. Ultimately I'd like to do something like this: TransferLog /usr/vhost1/logs/access.`hostname -s` Anyone run across this problem before? If so, how did you solve it? Thanks. -steve PS: Something else that might just work would be to log the files to a remote server like syslogd can. I just thought of this so I don't know if it would work. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 14:36:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE7A37B4EC; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09085; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:30:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAcLaiFr; Fri Feb 2 15:30:12 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15731; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:35:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102022235.PAA15731@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: per machine access logs in Apache To: steve@FreeBSD.ORG (Steve Price) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:35:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010202154728.I15902@dorado.freebsd.org> from "Steve Price" at Feb 02, 2001 03:47:28 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Has anyone come up with a slick way of getting per machine access > logs in Apache? Here's the scenario so that the question will make > more sense. You should look at the Apache FAQ; if you have just installed Apache, the first page that comes up links to documentation that was installed on your local machine, and includes the FAQ in HTML format. This is covered in detail. The general issue you are going to have is whether you want it based on host-where-apache-is-running or host-apache-is-serving. The "running" case is a lot easier; in the other case, you can quickly run out of logging file descriptors (per the FAQ). Actually, we invented something called "syslog" a very long time ago, to deal with exactly this problem. 8-). Too bad Apache has rolled their own. FWIW, for the virtual host case, you can change the log format to cause it to log the virtual host name, etc.. For the other case, you must be having the problem because you are running a shared filespace, mounted on multiple servers. The best answer is "don't do that"; the second best answer is "you can do that, if you realize that your throughput will be bottlenecked at the access to your shared filespace, so lots of servers do you little good; if you insist, putting the host name in the log file name is covered in the FAQ". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 14:46: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DD937B4EC for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27551; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:41:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAYuaiT1; Fri Feb 2 15:40:54 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15968; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:45:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: quote about open source To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:45:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Feb 02, 2001 02:05:05 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I just read this remark by BEA Systems founder and former Sun VP William > Coleman III: > > `The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open > source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because > open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going > on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' > > This is the first comment of this type I have ever heard. Any thoughts? To a large extent, this is true, given the organizational structure of most large software projects. There's very little in FreeBSD and Linux that has not already been published in the literature a decade or more ago, even on the "cutting edge" stuff, like SMP, clustering, and threading. Most of the innovation in Open Source code is coming from research outside of the context of the projects themselves. I suspect that given any single newly implemented "innovation" you can name, I can find a literature reference over 5 years old, and some will be significantly older (perhaps a quarter century or more, in some cases). Open Source projects frequently discuss the evolution of their project; innovation really requires revolution, not evolution, for it to be innovation. Most innovation does not come out of the processes of large projects or companies, Open Source or commercial, academic or professional, research or project developement. It comes out of small groups, usually with 6 or fewer members, and usually driven by a goal that has been defined in advance. The small amount of innovation which doesn't fit this mold is accidental, serendipitous. If I had to give one sentence: Innovation is not organic; it is not an emergent property, which shows up after its precursors hit a critical mass, but is instead built with monumental intent. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 15: 6:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A6237B401 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA15048; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:00:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAApZaWuD; Fri Feb 2 16:00:47 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16383; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:05:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102022305.QAA16383@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: quote about open source To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:05:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010202151744.O38235@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Feb 02, 2001 03:17:44 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > By that reasoning, there can't be innovation in science either, > because it's always been "open source" -- share your ideas, publish > them, etc. The idea of patenting scientific discoveries is pretty > recent, and even so, the equivalent of "closed source" (hide your > methods, reveal only your results) just doesn't exist -- because > people know such things cannot be taken seriously. You are aware that both Feynman and Dyson used Clifford Algebras to do much of their ground breaking work, but did not share this tool with their collegues, right? Most of the early QED (Quantum Electro Dynamics) work they did appeared to "skip steps" for most of their contemporaries, who lacked these tools. There was a lot of "the proof is left to the student", which seemed like hand waving. Even today, unless you take your QED classes from an extremely enlightened professor, you are likely to not ever hear about Clifford algebras, and even get a theoretical physics degree, without laying your hands on this important tool. Another example (which is probably a bad example, because there were national security reasons for non-disclosure) were the NSA modifications to the IBM DES algorithm, which appeared to weaken the cryptosystem to conventional (at the time) attacks. It was only 12 years later, when differential analysis was independently discovered outside the NSA, that it became obvious that the changes in fact strengthened the algorithm. I am aware of a number of physicists who are working on what I consider absolutely brilliant ideas, and who have made very significant progress in predicting phenomena, going down their roads less travelled, but who are completely unwilling to share their work, except in a very small circle of trust, until they have pushed it much farther. One of these physicists literally predicted the existance of the W particle _from theory_, and, further, calculated its energy _on the nose_, back in the early 1970's, and _still_ has only published bits and pieces. As a more contemporary example, the Taniyama-Shimura conjecture (that all elliptic curves have modular forms), which if proven, proved Fermat's last theorem, was worked on by the mathematician involved in total silence and isolation, until he believed he had solved the problem. Perhaps my favorite example is when Sir Edmund Halley went to Newton, described his concept of a "comet", and asked Newton to help him figure out what shape the orbit would take. Rather than embarking on a long project over many years, Newton thought about it for a few minutes, seemingly considering whether to undertake a project that would cost him a large chunk of his adult life, and stated "an ellipse". Newton, of course, did not bother to tell Halley that he had earlier invented calculus. Even without a patent system that permits patenting discoveries, scientists are just as closed-mouth about "trade secrets" as any industrialist who is in it for the money: money is not the only reward one might seek, despite what western society seems to have distilled down as the quintessence of life. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 15: 6:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.rdc1.il.home.com (mail2.rdc1.il.home.com [24.2.1.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D13F37B491 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by mail2.rdc1.il.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010202230618.ZNAT2476.mail2.rdc1.il.home.com@marx.marvic.chum> for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:06:18 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id RAA02929 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:10:15 -0600 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:10:15 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix Message-ID: <20010202171015.A2926@home.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102012239.PAA17765@usr08.primenet.com> <20010202134033.A91283@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010202134033.A91283@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 01:40:33PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 01:40:33PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > | A secondary problem with Windows, which is _not_ common to all > | versions (which is why many shops choose to develope on NT), is > | that it is really not a true protected mode OS. Because of this, > > Now that win2k is becoming established, and appears to be quite robust, what > does this mean for the future of professional programming? It certainly > makes the environment much more attractive to programmers who need that kind > of stability. I've heard the TCP/IP performance is vastly improved as well. Yeah, the network performance is improved. That is if you call dropping network connections improvement. -- Victor R. Cardona GnuPG Key fingerprint = 62B1 7995 A830 432C 74E8 1337 EDDB E682 3C76 7404 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 15:30:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73DB137B401 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14Opf0-0004WF-00; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:30:34 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f12Mv1g65052 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:57:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: The Intricacy of English Grammar Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:57:01 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <95fdvt$1vgj$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Following a link from Slashdot about some Blabla that Sun released, (http://www.sun.com/software/gridware/linux/faq.html) I ran into this: | Why is Sun announcing a Linux version of Sun[tm] Grid Engine | 5.2.2 software? | [...] | By offering a Linux version of Sun Grid Engine software, we are | offering a growth path and up-sell opportunity to customers who | desire greater reliability, serviceability and scalability of the | Solaris[tm] Operating Environment. Is my ability to parse English way off, or is this sentence pretty bizarre, coming from Sun? Now, if it said "... who desire _the_ greater reliability...", I'd be less surprised. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 16:13: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB9637B491 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f130CgI28316; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:12:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:12:42 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: Subject: Re: The Intricacy of English Grammar In-Reply-To: <95fdvt$1vgj$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Message-ID: <200102021904460.26851-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > | Why is Sun announcing a Linux version of Sun[tm] Grid Engine > | 5.2.2 software? > | [...] > | By offering a Linux version of Sun Grid Engine software, we are > | offering a growth path and up-sell opportunity to customers who > | desire greater reliability, serviceability and scalability of the > | Solaris[tm] Operating Environment. > > Is my ability to parse English way off, or is this sentence pretty > bizarre, coming from Sun? Now, if it said "... who desire _the_ > greater reliability...", I'd be less surprised. Good spotting--they seem to be saying "some of our customers find Solaris inadequate; they'll be happier running our Grid Engine software under Linux, and they'll even pay extra to upgrade from Solaris". I noticed a couple of non-hilarious typos, so it was probably just hastily drafted. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 17:26:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA1537B491 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:25:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from stanfordalumni.org (1Cust76.tnt15.tco2.da.uu.net [63.38.134.76]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23046; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:25:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102030125.RAA23046@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> To: naddy@mips.inka.de Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Don Tyson Subject: Re: The Intricacy of English Grammar In-reply-to: <95fdvt$1vgj$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <95fdvt$1vgj$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Comments: In-reply-to naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) message dated "Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:57:01 +0000." Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 20:25:49 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snipped] > | By offering a Linux version of Sun Grid Engine software, we are > | offering a growth path and up-sell opportunity to customers who > | desire greater reliability, serviceability and scalability of the > | Solaris[tm] Operating Environment. > > Is my ability to parse English way off, or is this sentence pretty > bizarre, coming from Sun? Now, if it said "... who desire _the_ > greater reliability...", I'd be less surprised. > > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de Alas, sloppy writing strikes again. Neither the author nor the editor noticed, and probably there was no proofreader. Don Tyson (or they relied on the MS Office grammar-checker) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 2 19:23:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.interlog.com (bretweir.total.net [154.11.89.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3525E37B503 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24628 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 03:23:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vws3.interlog.com) (207.34.202.29) by bretweir.total.net with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 03:23:29 -0000 Received: by vws3.interlog.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA17747; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:23:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:23:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200102030323.WAA17747@vws3.interlog.com> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: FreeBSD Security Advisories Subject: FreeBSD Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:20.egos Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ============================================================================= FreeBSD-SA-01:09 Security Advisory FreeBSD, Inc. Topic: Local ego exploit Category: (l)users Announced: 2001-02-03 Credits: AntiOffline.com, Disgraced.org, Deficiency.org sil, deran9ed Affects: All released (l)users of FreeBSD Corrected: (l)Users should seek psychotherapy shock therapy, along with multiple doses of Thorazine chased by 2 shots of Liquid Draino for maximum effectivity Vendor status: Feelings still hurting while crying over spilled milk. FreeBSD only: YES and some of their (l)users I. Background FreeBSD (l)users became disgruntled about the original advisory concerning the bloated remarks aimed towards their chopperating sysdumb. This became an issue for some on Internet Relay Chat, and caused them to ban others' connection since their ego's had been hurt. (boo fsckin hoo) II. Problem Description Penis envy seems to be the number one cause, and we are trying to differentiate between the women who still have penises, that are crying (game) foul. For the hermies we suggest counseling, and estrogen treatment followed by a visit to fellow hermie JP @ AntiOnline.com as well as the switch hitting lesbo at http://www.happyhacker.org in an effort to ass!ess their sexualities. Egos can be strengthened by practicing humility and learning that once in a while it is a good thing to actually have a good laugh, although to those whose egos' that have been hurt we suggest that you replace the batteries in your dildos and reinsert them into your anal crevices. III. Impact None to those with a sense of humor, although those without them will grow old and become miserable rootards, capable of placing razor blades, crushed glass, and cyanide, in the bags of small children who are out for Halloween Trick or Treating. IV. Workaround Take a look at your own shortcomings before judging others. V. Solution Socialize a bit more. VI. Shouts Marshall Mathers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 1:55:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D936C37B401 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16396 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:55:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203025231.0499e790@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 02:54:32 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: ROFL! (Was: FreeBSD Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:20.egos) In-Reply-To: <200102030323.WAA17747@vws3.interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ROFL! Did someone really ban critics (legitimate or not) from an IRC channel? --Brett At 08:23 PM 2/2/2001, FreeBSD Security Advisories wrote: >============================================================================= >FreeBSD-SA-01:09 Security Advisory > FreeBSD, Inc. > >Topic: Local ego exploit > >Category: (l)users >Announced: 2001-02-03 >Credits: AntiOffline.com, Disgraced.org, Deficiency.org > sil, deran9ed >Affects: All released (l)users of FreeBSD > >Corrected: (l)Users should seek psychotherapy shock therapy, > along with multiple doses of Thorazine chased by > 2 shots of Liquid Draino for maximum effectivity > >Vendor status: Feelings still hurting while crying over spilled > milk. > >FreeBSD only: YES and some of their (l)users > >I. Background > >FreeBSD (l)users became disgruntled about the original advisory >concerning the bloated remarks aimed towards their chopperating >sysdumb. This became an issue for some on Internet Relay Chat, >and caused them to ban others' connection since their ego's had >been hurt. (boo fsckin hoo) > >II. Problem Description > >Penis envy seems to be the number one cause, and we are trying >to differentiate between the women who still have penises, that >are crying (game) foul. > >For the hermies we suggest counseling, and estrogen treatment >followed by a visit to fellow hermie JP @ AntiOnline.com as well >as the switch hitting lesbo at http://www.happyhacker.org in an >effort to ass!ess their sexualities. > >Egos can be strengthened by practicing humility and learning that >once in a while it is a good thing to actually have a good laugh, >although to those whose egos' that have been hurt we suggest that >you replace the batteries in your dildos and reinsert them into >your anal crevices. > >III. Impact > >None to those with a sense of humor, although those without them >will grow old and become miserable rootards, capable of placing >razor blades, crushed glass, and cyanide, in the bags of small >children who are out for Halloween Trick or Treating. > >IV. Workaround > >Take a look at your own shortcomings before judging others. > >V. Solution > >Socialize a bit more. > >VI. Shouts > >Marshall Mathers > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 3: 4: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB6437B4EC for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 03:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f13B3e432256 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:03:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA95472 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:03:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:03:57 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quote about open source Message-ID: <20010203120357.B94275@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010202151744.O38235@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022305.QAA16383@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102022305.QAA16383@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:05:58PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Feb 2, 2001 at 23:05:58: > > By that reasoning, there can't be innovation in science either, > > because it's always been "open source" -- share your ideas, publish > > them, etc. The idea of patenting scientific discoveries is pretty > > recent, and even so, the equivalent of "closed source" (hide your > > methods, reveal only your results) just doesn't exist -- because > > people know such things cannot be taken seriously. > > You are aware that both Feynman and Dyson used Clifford Algebras > to do much of their ground breaking work, but did not share this > tool with their collegues, right? Most of the early QED (Quantum > Electro Dynamics) work they did appeared to "skip steps" for most > of their contemporaries, who lacked these tools. There was a lot > of "the proof is left to the student", which seemed like hand > waving. Even today, unless you take your QED classes from an > extremely enlightened professor, you are likely to not ever hear > about Clifford algebras, and even get a theoretical physics > degree, without laying your hands on this important tool. Well, I haven't read the early QED papers and don't know very much about the subject anyway (I'm not in high energy physics); I'll come back to the subject of Feynman below. But yes, what goes into the paper isn't necessarily how you yourself arrived at the results. However, the paper should make at least enough sense for the referee to believe the answers... It's pretty common even in "open source" for someone to work on something alone, without telling anyone, and then spring it on to the world when it's in a working state. The linux kernel is itself an example. My point was, you know a scientific claim works when you know all the steps of the theoretical reasoning or the experiment; you know a program works correctly (and no back doors, etc) when you have the source code in front of you. You are pointing out that there may be several ways to arrive at a scientific result, and scientists may keep some method to themselves. That is true, but they still publish *some* method to satisfy the rest of the world. I'm not sure there's an analogue for this in programming: if you want to verify that a program works as it should, you'll want the source to *that* program, not the source to some other program which gives you identical results. The correctness of computer programs can actually be a problem in physics too, given the reliance on computer simulations these days. Most people don't publish the source code to their simulation programs: the only way to verify the correctness of a simulation is for someone else to write their own code for the same problem, and compare the results. Coming back to Feynman -- his major contribution to physics was surely the idea of path integrals, which led to a diagrammatic way of doing perturbation theory, called "Feynman diagrams". Many of his results in QED were derived by Schwinger and others algebraically, but Feynman could do them much faster and much more intuitively. But the whole reason for accepting his methods was that he published them, and explained them, and they made sense to everyone. Compare a mathematician of the early 20th century: Srinivasa Ramanujan. He was not trained in the Western way, and had a habit of doing his calculations on a slate, rubbing them out, and only writing his results in a notebook; and people are still trying to prove those results today. His notebook was sufficiently interesting for people to make the effort to prove it all, but nothing he says can be trusted without proof. In a few cases he's been shown wrong, in fact. Now, the proofs that have been published may not be what he had in mind (and he may not have had a rigorous proof in mind at all), but any proof, if rigorous, will do. Most conventional mathematicians/scientists justify everything they say properly in their papers, but the arguments they actually write may not be the ones they originally used to arrive at their results. > I am aware of a number of physicists who are working on what > I consider absolutely brilliant ideas, and who have made very > significant progress in predicting phenomena, going down their > roads less travelled, but who are completely unwilling to share > their work, except in a very small circle of trust, until they > have pushed it much farther. One of these physicists literally > predicted the existance of the W particle _from theory_, and, > further, calculated its energy _on the nose_, back in the > early 1970's, and _still_ has only published bits and pieces. > > > As a more contemporary example, the Taniyama-Shimura conjecture > (that all elliptic curves have modular forms), which if proven, > proved Fermat's last theorem, was worked on by the mathematician > involved in total silence and isolation, until he believed he > had solved the problem. > > > Perhaps my favorite example is when Sir Edmund Halley went to > Newton, described his concept of a "comet", and asked Newton > to help him figure out what shape the orbit would take. Rather > than embarking on a long project over many years, Newton thought > about it for a few minutes, seemingly considering whether to > undertake a project that would cost him a large chunk of his > adult life, and stated "an ellipse". Newton, of course, did > not bother to tell Halley that he had earlier invented calculus. Newton did, of course, eventually publish his results. I'm not really familiar with the other stories. My point is, in science you nearly always have to publish compelling arguments to support any claim you make; and the more surprising the claim, the more thorough the arguments required. Your point about "trade secrets" which are not actually revealed in published work is correct, but as far as I am aware, in today's world at least, the published work should contain some alternative argument. Another reason to hide such "trade secrets" is that the people concerned may not be convinced about their correctness -- they are tricks that work, but their answers must be verified in other ways. Newton, for example, took many years to prove that two spheres attract each other in the same way as two point masses located at their centres; until he had a satisfactory proof, he did not want to publish it, but this was quite crucial to calculating planetary orbits and so on. Feynman had problems convincing older physicists of the correctness of the diagram approach (How can you draw a line representing an electron? What about the uncertainty principle?...) The works of people like L D Landau and P W Anderson (probably the people most responsible for whatever we know about "condensed matter" today) are generally brilliantly argued and very persuasive, but you get the feeling that they somehow "knew" all these things intuitively, and the arguments came only later. Maybe such people have "trade secrets" of their own. None of these situations seem to arise in programming. But the fundamental requirement, that in order to be satisfied about the correctness you have to see the inner working, is still there. And it is quite possible for someone to work alone, and "publish" the program only when sure of its correctness. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 4: 1: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.org (adsl-64-169-104-72.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331F837B4EC for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 37996BA74C; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:01:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:01:15 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ROFL! (Was: FreeBSD Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:20.egos) Message-ID: <20010203040115.A35712@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200102030323.WAA17747@vws3.interlog.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203025231.0499e790@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9amGYk9869ThD9tj" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203025231.0499e790@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 02:54:32AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --9amGYk9869ThD9tj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 02:54:32AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > ROFL! Did someone really ban critics (legitimate or not) from an=20 > IRC channel? Apparently there was a little pissing war between #freebsd and #openbsd on efnet. Kris --9amGYk9869ThD9tj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6e/MLWry0BWjoQKURAsmhAJ9oyXwEAhBDqIAPKRxUEEBBlgeWkgCfUXRw 5pIq/luZRCUUQg9A/OV8ubA= =OCmb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9amGYk9869ThD9tj-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 4: 7:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.org (adsl-64-169-104-72.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF49F37B65D for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3697EBA74C; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:07:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:07:47 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quote about open source Message-ID: <20010203040747.B35712@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010202151744.O38235@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022305.QAA16383@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="z6Eq5LdranGa6ru8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102022305.QAA16383@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:05:58PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --z6Eq5LdranGa6ru8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:05:58PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > waving. Even today, unless you take your QED classes from an > extremely enlightened professor, you are likely to not ever hear > about Clifford algebras, and even get a theoretical physics > degree, without laying your hands on this important tool. Umm, I'm not sure how you could learn QED without encountering a clifford algebra. That's essentially the defining relation of spinor fields (fermions), i.e. they carry a representation of the clifford algebra: \{ \psi^\mu, \psi^\nu \} = \eta^{\mu\nu} Kris, who learned QED from a not very enlightened professor. --z6Eq5LdranGa6ru8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6e/STWry0BWjoQKURAkloAJ9C3aW5md5KR30Q9WWbThmNClU8/wCfWreF qRnPHbZ96YdBFpirZ5aNDVI= =8vlL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --z6Eq5LdranGa6ru8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 4:12: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE4C37B491 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f13CBf435220 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:11:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA97711 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:11:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:11:59 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quote about open source Message-ID: <20010203131159.G94275@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 10:45:32PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Open Source projects frequently discuss the evolution of their > project; innovation really requires revolution, not evolution, > for it to be innovation. > > Most innovation does not come out of the processes of large > projects or companies, Open Source or commercial, academic or > professional, research or project developement. It comes out > of small groups, usually with 6 or fewer members, and usually > driven by a goal that has been defined in advance. The small > amount of innovation which doesn't fit this mold is accidental, > serendipitous. I disagree with that. A truly revolutionary idea is always "accidental, serendipitous". Of course, it seems to happen more to some people than to others; that's a characteristic of their personalities, that they don't think along conventional lines. But you cannot decide to have a revolutionary idea, and you can't set up a small group of 6 people and tell them to have a revolutionary idea. Either it comes or it doesn't. It may well come when you're looking for something quite different. What your group of 6 people may do is develop a new and better compression scheme, natural language processing system, whatever. But that's evolution, not revolution. In hardware matters (new kinds of storage media, new processes for fabricating chips, etc) such advances seem to come from much larger, and very well funded, groups. Can you name any "revolutionary" ideas that actually came out of small groups which were set up to look for revolutionary ideas, or from individuals who planned to look for such ideas anyway? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 4:29:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB1237B401 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f13CSq436012 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:28:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA98291 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:29:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:29:10 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quote about open source Message-ID: <20010203132910.K94275@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Kennaway , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010202151744.O38235@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022305.QAA16383@usr08.primenet.com> <20010203040747.B35712@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010203040747.B35712@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:07:47AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway said on Feb 3, 2001 at 04:07:47: > On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:05:58PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > waving. Even today, unless you take your QED classes from an > > extremely enlightened professor, you are likely to not ever hear > > about Clifford algebras, and even get a theoretical physics > > degree, without laying your hands on this important tool. > > Umm, I'm not sure how you could learn QED without encountering a > clifford algebra. That's essentially the defining relation of spinor > fields (fermions), i.e. they carry a representation of the clifford > algebra: > > \{ \psi^\mu, \psi^\nu \} = \eta^{\mu\nu} That's right, I remember. I'd forgotten the name (one hardly uses this stuff in condensed matter...) but this is as fundamental to QED/relativistic quantum mechanics as the usual commutation relations are to ordinary quantum mechanics... and is surely older than Feynman or Dyson. Probably Dirac. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 4:35:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.org (adsl-64-169-104-72.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A4D37B4EC for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C0CE6BA74C; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:36:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:36:05 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quote about open source Message-ID: <20010203043605.A36290@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010202151744.O38235@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022305.QAA16383@usr08.primenet.com> <20010203040747.B35712@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010203132910.K94275@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010203132910.K94275@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 01:29:10PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 01:29:10PM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > That's right, I remember. I'd forgotten the name (one hardly uses > this stuff in condensed matter...) but this is as fundamental to > QED/relativistic quantum mechanics as the usual commutation relations > are to ordinary quantum mechanics... and is surely older than Feynman > or Dyson. Probably Dirac. Yep, I think so. Kris --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6e/s0Wry0BWjoQKURAoKnAKDr7AHgFFIgOhcksC9CdGMxO3aUTgCdHWXY mjpJB+RdXwa5QJ4c7bZYBz8= =q/s1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 4:59: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8896B37B401 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 04:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f13Cwi437768 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:58:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA99294 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:59:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:59:02 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: D J Bernstein (was Re: quote about open source) Message-ID: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 10:45:32PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Feb 2, 2001 at 22:45:32: > > `The second problem is, and this is my most controversial remark, open > > source is the end of innovation and it's the end of innovation because > > open source can't happen until it's so broadly understood what's going > > on that the innovation has slowed down to incrementalism.'' > > To a large extent, this is true, given the organizational > structure of most large software projects. > > There's very little in FreeBSD and Linux that has not already > been published in the literature a decade or more ago, even > on the "cutting edge" stuff, like SMP, clustering, and threading. > > Most of the innovation in Open Source code is coming from > research outside of the context of the projects themselves. > > I suspect that given any single newly implemented "innovation" > you can name, I can find a literature reference over 5 years > old, and some will be significantly older (perhaps a quarter > century or more, in some cases). With the recent BIND problems, one name that's getting frequently mentioned is that of D J Bernstein.... It seems to me that if any true innovation will come out of the open source world, it will be from someone like him. He seems to be quite a character, though I only know him from his webpage and from the case on crypto exports which he fought some time back. I admit I'm no expert in programming: but his approach to security seems to be an innovation already, like using small independent programs running under their own non-root UIDs, and minimising the number and power of suid programs needed. Looks obvious, but why didn't sendmail and bind get there first? For email, if you're tired of sendmail's problems, there's DJB's qmail and there's postfix, the author of which is another candidate for "open source innovator". FreeBSD's mailing lists use postfix, though it's not part of the base FreeBSD system. The only time I set up a small email server, I used qmail, and it was a dream to configure compared to sendmail and it works like a charm. It seems to power some of the internet's busiest servers too. It hasn't been updated since 1997, but then it hasn't needed updating. So today so many people are worrying about the implications of BIND's holes for the internet's future, and the BIND team is responding by suggesting such crap as paid membership for early security alerts; but back in 1999 DJB actually wrote a bind replacement, and djbdns actually works beautifully, judging by many user reports. DJB has plenty of other ideas on his webpage (http://cr.yp.to) and many of them look pretty innovative to me. He even has his own mail transfer protocol, QMTP, and proposals for other protocols to deal with today's email problems. But the existing standards are quite entrenched, and it's hard to change the world... Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 5:35:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9A837B401 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 05:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19522; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 06:35:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203063158.04a00100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 06:34:38 -0700 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ROFL! (Was: FreeBSD Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:20.egos) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010203040115.A35712@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203025231.0499e790@localhost> <200102030323.WAA17747@vws3.interlog.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203025231.0499e790@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:01 AM 2/3/2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Apparently there was a little pissing war between #freebsd and >#openbsd on efnet. > >Kris How do two separate IRC channels engage in a war? And why was it FreeBSD v. OpenBSD? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 7: 6:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C050037B491 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 07:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA53132; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:04:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:04:42 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: D J Bernstein (was Re: quote about open source) In-Reply-To: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :some of the internet's busiest servers too. It hasn't been updated :since 1997, but then it hasn't needed updating. That's less than accurate. Most large qmail installations have patched djb's distribution. : :So today so many people are worrying about the implications of BIND's :holes for the internet's future, and the BIND team is responding by :suggesting such crap as paid membership for early security alerts; but :back in 1999 DJB actually wrote a bind replacement, and djbdns :actually works beautifully, judging by many user reports. It's substantially less well featured than bind. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 7:17: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922F937B401 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 07:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f13FGd446241 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:16:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA05603 ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:16:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:16:57 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Scheidt Cc: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: D J Bernstein (was Re: quote about open source) Message-ID: <20010203161657.P94275@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: David Scheidt , Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 09:04:42AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt said on Feb 3, 2001 at 09:04:42: > On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > :some of the internet's busiest servers too. It hasn't been updated > :since 1997, but then it hasn't needed updating. > > That's less than accurate. Most large qmail installations have patched > djb's distribution. To remove bugs/security holes, or to add features? It seemed to me that the bare qmail package contains everything one needs for a typical email server. About the only thing I didn't like about it was that if it needs to deliver two copies of a message to the same host, for two different recipients, it makes two SMTP connections. But for the sort of set-up I was using it for, this didn't really matter. Maybe large providers like yahoo need more features, though. > :back in 1999 DJB actually wrote a bind replacement, and djbdns > :actually works beautifully, judging by many user reports. > > It's substantially less well featured than bind. Possible -- I haven't looked carefully at either. And DJB's licensing requirements mean it's harder for others to add those features -- but, as in the case of qmail, maybe it can be done via patches. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 10: 0:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 815BB37B4EC for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 72228 invoked by uid 100); 3 Feb 2001 18:00:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14972.18243.202141.968666@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:00:35 -0600 (CST) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: D J Bernstein (was Re: quote about open source) In-Reply-To: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan types: > I admit I'm no expert in programming: but his approach to security > seems to be an innovation already, like using small independent programs > running under their own non-root UIDs, and minimising the number and > power of suid programs needed. Looks obvious, but why didn't > sendmail and bind get there first? To answer the last question - because they were written when only responsible adults had internet access, or "when we were all friends" (I think those are Eric Fair's words). Compare this to BSD Unix vs. Windows: Windows grew up in a single-tasking, single-user environment, so that if a program altered things it didn't own, it was inevitably a bug. BSD Unix grew up in a university environment, with many students with no free time trying to break into them - so it wasn't at all uncommon for a program to try something it shouldn't just to see what would happen. You might also consider the many security features of SMTP of that era. As for the approach, I'm pretty sure that those aren't original to qmail. WN & GN come to mind. There's at least one tool - I believe it's in the TIS fwtk - that ran an smtp daemon to accept messages and drop them in a queue, then ran sendmail to deliver them - the performance pretty much sucked, though. DJB was the first person to apply them to a publicly released MTA, though. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 10:25:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1D237B4EC for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22248; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:23:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 11:23:44 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture (Was: D J Bernstein) Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:59 AM 2/3/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I admit I'm no expert in programming: but his approach to security >seems to be an innovation already, like using small independent programs >running under their own non-root UIDs, and minimising the number and >power of suid programs needed. Looks obvious, but why didn't >sendmail and bind get there first? Because, even though they grew out of the Berkeley environment, their authors somehow missed the wise lesson of UNIX: Unless there's a compelling need to make things monolithic, small, simple building blocks that can be combined in multiple ways are best. Bernstein's methodology is UNIX-like, whereas the Sendmail and BIND approaches are similar to what we used to see in mainframe apps. Bernstein's dns and mail daemons and smtpd/smtpfwdd are examples of a more UNIX-like approach to system architecture. So, ironically, is BeOS, which has a very small kernel surrounded by a layer of privileged processes. Even the file system and device drivers are walled off in this way. (Admittedly, one motivation for doing the device drivers in this manner was licensing issues -- they wanted to take advantage of the vast number of Linux device drivers but skirt the nastiness of the GPL, which would have required them to reveal all of their source code if they'd put the drivers in the kernel itself. But it is a good choice architecturally, too, so long as you have fast IPC. QNX is somewhat similar.) Apache and the Linux kernel take an approach similar to that of Windows. Both are big blobs, but they're blobs that build themselves at load time from a collection of modules that aren't particularly autonomous. For better or for worse, FreeBSD's kernel is going in the same direction. The "blob which grows by accretion" approach has yielded mixed results in the past; Apache is solid, but Windows is an undebuggable nightmare. It still remains to be seen how FreeBSD will do. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 12:13:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.org (adsl-64-169-104-72.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB8D37B503 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1DD37BA74C; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:13:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:13:49 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ROFL! (Was: FreeBSD Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:20.egos) Message-ID: <20010203121349.A40178@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203025231.0499e790@localhost> <200102030323.WAA17747@vws3.interlog.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203025231.0499e790@localhost> <20010203040115.A35712@xor.obsecurity.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203063158.04a00100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203063158.04a00100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 06:34:38AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 06:34:38AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:01 AM 2/3/2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: >=20 > >Apparently there was a little pissing war between #freebsd and > >#openbsd on efnet. > > > >Kris >=20 > How do two separate IRC channels engage in a war? And why > was it FreeBSD v. OpenBSD? I don't know, I don't hang out on #freebsd because it's so lame..but I imagine it's the usual thing of people joining the other channel and shouting obscenities, getting banned, trying again from a new shell account, etc. High class stuff. Kris --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6fGZ9Wry0BWjoQKURAvGfAKCWitvyXBV4HM08gX/tK/fIY8igdACfdwQ4 HQOeMt5qBGw5oV+RHlA+UuM= =FUAr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 12:37:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399F637B401 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f13Kb6x58781; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:37:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f13Kap839686; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:36:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15139.981232112@critter> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 12:36:51 -0800 (PST) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: DEVFS newbie... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-Feb-01 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > It's really very simple, if I get my way, this will be possible: > > # rm /dev/null > # echo 'OOPS!' ^^^^^^^^^^^^ And this is the most important command in this whole sequence.. :) > # rm -W /dev/null > # ls -l /dev/null > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 2, 2 3 Feb 21:25 /dev/null > # mount -t devfs devfs /home/jail/dev > # cd /home/jail/dev > # rm -f * > # rm -W null zero tty console > # ls -l > crw------- 1 phk wheel 0, 0 2 Feb 01:09 console > drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 0 2 Feb 01:06 fd > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 2, 2 3 Feb 21:25 null > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 3 Feb 17:27 tty > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 2, 12 1 Jan 1970 zero > # -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 13: 6:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0768637B401 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23970 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:05:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203135311.048983c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:05:29 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Conduct Unbecoming a Core Team Member Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For several weeks now, a Core Team member whom I don't know personally -- one Peter Wemm -- appears to be engaging in a practice somewhere between spamming and mail bombing. Each time I post a message to any mailing list to which he happens to subscribes (including not only several FreeBSD lists but also some others), an autoresponder sends a copy of it back to me with a rude message plus reams of headers attached. (An example appears below.) It seems to me that this conduct is certainly a breach of Netiquette and certainly unbecoming for a Core Team member. While Mr. Wemm may not want to read anything I write, it seems to me that automatically dumping copies of it back in my mailbox -- with a nasty message prepended -- is not only network abuse but a mild form of harassment. I'm quite capable of rigging the server to trash any message received from him, but unlike Mr. Wemm I don't believe in "tuning out" anyone -- even someone whom I dislike. He or she might, after all, have something valuable or insightful to say. In any event, I obviously cannot reach this person to complain about his breach of Netiquette and network abuse, because his server is configured to reject it. (Yes, I could resort to a "throwaway" mail account or some other ruse, but this would be descending to his level.) Could someone here -- perhaps some of the Core Team members -- contact Mr. Wemm and ask him to stop? His conduct sets a bad example within an organization that supposedly takes pride in having mature attitudes toward both software design and project management. --Brett Glass >Return-Path: >Received: from mobile.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [65.0.135.147]) > by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22288 > for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:27:20 -0700 (MST) >Received: (from peter@localhost) > by mobile.wemm.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f13IRJA45090 > for brett@lariat.org; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:27:19 -0800 (PST) > (envelope-from nobody@netplex.com.au) >Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:27:19 -0800 (PST) >Message-Id: <200102031827.f13IRJA45090@mobile.wemm.org> >X-Authentication-Warning: mobile.wemm.org: peter set sender to nobody@netplex.com.au using -f >From: goaway@wemm.org >To: brett@lariat.org >Subject: your email was received and ignored >X-UIDL: 612df898587d7ec765dfb375c786ee85 > >In case you dont get it, please go away and stop filling my mailbox! >Your ignored email is appended below and being returned unread: >--- >>From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 3 10:27:18 2001 >Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by mobile.wemm.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f13IRIW45081 > for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:27:18 -0800 (PST) > (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) >Received: from cvs.netplex.com.au [10.0.0.1] > by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.5.3) > for peter@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 03 Feb 2001 10:27:18 -0800 (PST) >Received: by peter3.wemm.org (mbox peter) > (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Sat Feb 3 10:27:18 2001) >X-From_: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 3 10:26:15 2001 >Received: from spam.netplex.com.au (root@spam.netplex.com.au [203.38.44.162]) > by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f13IQ8G98763 > for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:26:09 -0800 (PST) > (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) >Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) > by spam.netplex.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05673 > for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 02:26:02 +0800 (WST) > (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) >Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) > by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP > id 075176E2A34; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:25:56 -0800 (PST) >Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 538) > id 8D61E37B491; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:25:55 -0800 (PST) >Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP > id 80EF02E81BA; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:25:55 -0800 (PST) >Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:25:55 -0800 >Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) > by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1D237B4EC > for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:25:37 -0800 (PST) >Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) > by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22248; > Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:23:54 -0700 (MST) >Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> >X-Sender: brett@localhost >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 >Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 11:23:44 -0700 >To: Rahul Siddharthan , > Terry Lambert >From: Brett Glass >Subject: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture (Was: D > J Bernstein) >Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >In-Reply-To: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> >References: <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> > <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> > <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Precedence: bulk > >At 05:59 AM 2/3/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >>I admit I'm no expert in programming: but his approach to security >>seems to be an innovation already, like using small independent programs >>running under their own non-root UIDs, and minimising the number and >>power of suid programs needed. Looks obvious, but why didn't >>sendmail and bind get there first? > >Because, even though they grew out of the Berkeley environment, their >authors somehow missed the wise lesson of UNIX: Unless there's a >compelling need to make things monolithic, small, simple building >blocks that can be combined in multiple ways are best. Bernstein's >methodology is UNIX-like, whereas the Sendmail and BIND approaches >are similar to what we used to see in mainframe apps. Bernstein's >dns and mail daemons and smtpd/smtpfwdd are examples of a more >UNIX-like approach to system architecture. So, ironically, is >BeOS, which has a very small kernel surrounded by a layer of >privileged processes. Even the file system and device drivers are >walled off in this way. (Admittedly, one motivation for doing the >device drivers in this manner was licensing issues -- they wanted to >take advantage of the vast number of Linux device drivers but skirt >the nastiness of the GPL, which would have required them to reveal >all of their source code if they'd put the drivers in the kernel >itself. But it is a good choice architecturally, too, so long as >you have fast IPC. QNX is somewhat similar.) > >Apache and the Linux kernel take an approach similar to that >of Windows. Both are big blobs, but they're blobs that build >themselves at load time from a collection of modules that aren't >particularly autonomous. For better or for worse, FreeBSD's kernel >is going in the same direction. The "blob which grows by >accretion" approach has yielded mixed results in the past; >Apache is solid, but Windows is an undebuggable nightmare. >It still remains to be seen how FreeBSD will do. > >--Brett > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 15:21:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (unknown [216.152.64.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29FF37B491 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:18:16 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , Subject: RE: Conduct Unbecoming a Core Team Member Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:18:21 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203135311.048983c0@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > For several weeks now, a Core Team member whom I don't > know personally -- one Peter Wemm -- appears to be engaging > in a practice somewhere between spamming and mail bombing. > Each time I post a message to any mailing list to which > he happens to subscribes (including not only several FreeBSD > lists but also some others), an autoresponder sends a copy > of it back to me with a rude message plus reams of headers > attached. (An example appears below.) IMO, regardless of who is doing it or why, autoresponding to posts to a mailing list should be grounds for removal from that mailing list. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 15:47:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81B837B491 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 15:47:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA57479; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:45:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:45:53 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: D J Bernstein (was Re: quote about open source) In-Reply-To: <20010203161657.P94275@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :David Scheidt said on Feb 3, 2001 at 09:04:42: :> On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :> :> :some of the internet's busiest servers too. It hasn't been updated :> :since 1997, but then it hasn't needed updating. :> :> That's less than accurate. Most large qmail installations have patched :> djb's distribution. : :To remove bugs/security holes, or to add features? That sentence isn't quite fair. There are some features that out of the box qmail is missing. People who need, or think they need, these features would be justified in considering them to be bugs. : :Possible -- I haven't looked carefully at either. And DJB's licensing :requirements mean it's harder for others to add those features -- but, :as in the case of qmail, maybe it can be done via patches. : Patches are an unmanagalbe way of managing any reasonably sized software. See Terry Lambert's recent postings on the history of post CSRG BSD for examples. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 19:13: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B2637B4EC for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.15]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA64911; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:09:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:17:04 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , Subject: RE: Conduct Unbecoming a Core Team Member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, David Schwartz wrote: > > For several weeks now, a Core Team member whom I don't > > know personally -- one Peter Wemm -- appears to be engaging > > in a practice somewhere between spamming and mail bombing. > > Each time I post a message to any mailing list to which > > he happens to subscribes (including not only several FreeBSD > > lists but also some others), an autoresponder sends a copy > > of it back to me with a rude message plus reams of headers > > attached. (An example appears below.) > > IMO, regardless of who is doing it or why, autoresponding to posts to a > mailing list should be grounds for removal from that mailing list. > DS I have agree 100% with both Brett and David. That behavior should not be condoned. Who would be the best person in the FreeBSD organization that we should contact? I don't think that person even deserves to be tried to be contacted. abuse@freebsd.org or postmaster@freebsd.org perhaps? I know that many people don't like Brett emails, but as far as I know he doesn't mail bomb anybody. Moreover if someone posts on a list it is fairly ridiculous to expect only replies of people you agree with. And if someone doesn't like his replies they should ignore them.. but having an autoresponder.. which is trigered by messages from the list... that is insane! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 3 19:24:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mobile.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [65.0.135.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992AF37B503 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.wemm.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f143Nqt01254; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:23:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200102040323.f143Nqt01254@mobile.wemm.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "David Schwartz" Cc: "Brett Glass" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conduct Unbecoming a Core Team Member In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 19:23:52 -0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" wrote: > > > For several weeks now, a Core Team member whom I don't > > know personally -- one Peter Wemm -- appears to be engaging > > in a practice somewhere between spamming and mail bombing. > > Each time I post a message to any mailing list to which > > he happens to subscribes (including not only several FreeBSD > > lists but also some others), an autoresponder sends a copy > > of it back to me with a rude message plus reams of headers > > attached. (An example appears below.) > > IMO, regardless of who is doing it or why, autoresponding to posts to a > mailing list should be grounds for removal from that mailing list. > > DS For what it's worth, this is the procmail script I had. I dont believe it was mailbombing - no more than one reply for each message he sent me. :0 * ^From:.*brett@lariat.org | /home/peter/Mail/goaway.sh brett@lariat.org $ more ~/Mail/goaway.sh #! /bin/sh domain="your domain" (cat << EOF From: goaway@$domain To: $1 Subject: your email was received and ignored In case you dont get it, please go away and stop filling my mailbox! Your ignored email is appended below and being returned unread: --- EOF cat ) | sendmail -f nobody@$domain $1 In hindsight, I should have excluded stuff on the freebsd lists. I apologize for the inconvenience. I have disabled it completely. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message