From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 6: 6:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDC137B401 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 06:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f53D5t652864 ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:05:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA75397 ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:06:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:06:36 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? Message-ID: <20010603150636.D73098@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> <3B1935A0.F809735A@duth.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B1935A0.F809735A@duth.gr>; from kkonstan@duth.gr on Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 09:51:12PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis said on Jun 2, 2001 at 21:51:12: > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > Note that Linux was mentioned explicitly but not the BSDs. > > > > Yeah, I couldn't help not noticing that AdaOS, AIX, Amoeba, AtheOS, > BeOS, CPM, DOS, EPOC, EROS, GEOS, HP-UX, Inferno, IRIX, ITS, MINIX, > Multics, Netware, NeXT, OS/2, OSF 1, Palm OS, Plan 9, QNX, REAL-32, > RISC OS, RxDOS, Solaris, THEOS, TRON, VMS, VSTa and any of the BSDs > were not explicitly mentioned. I suppose we should all shoot him or > something. He's done this before: http://www.ucomics.com/doonesbury/viewdb.cfm?uc_full_date=19990409&uc_comic=db&uc_daction=X and he doesn't even mention Apple or Windows in that one. Yes, we should certainly shoot him. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 9: 1:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE7D37B403 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA51046 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f53G3TK43593 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:03:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 08:55:54 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:54 AM -0600 6/2/01, Brett Glass wrote: >And, alas, most often not activated. An interesting, if ill-defined conjecture. Do you meant that the Mac OS X software on most received machines is never activated or that it isn't activated as often as the Mac OS 9 software? I am pretty sure that the latter is correct; I'm not as sure about the former. I suspect that many users will at least "try out" Mac OS X, as long as it's on the hard drive. OTOH, if you're talking about explicit use of BSD, I suspect that most Mac OS users will leave the command line alone (as Apple quite clearly intends), but that any Linux or Unix aficionado is both able and quite likely to pull up a Terminal window and try things out a bit. Apple started out by being extremely reluctant to mention Unix in any of its public messages; they appeared to be afraid that its presence, however hidden, might scare away their mainstream users. In recent months, however, they have started talking about it on their web site, etc. They also decided to ship a Developer Tools CD with every boxed set of Mac OS X. This is pretty radical stuff. Meanwhile, they have been getting strong feedback from the early adopters, indicating that there is a contingent of "SciTech" users who are VERY interested in playing with the Unix side of Mac OS X. For this reason, Apple has been quite supportive of the efforts to make the FreeBSD Ports Collection run on Darwin and Mac OS X (see http://www.ptf.com/tdc for more information). >OS X has a ways to go yet before the average user >will want to run it. We have it running on a couple of machines. It seems to be stable, capable, and well-thought-out. It isn't perfect, of course (some things are slow; some UI features are not to my taste), but it's easily as good as any other new OS introduction I have seen in my 30 years in the field. Given that Apple isn't forcing anyone to use Mac OS X (yet :-), I see no real harm in their allowing folks to try it out while they work out these issues, get third-party packages on board, etc. By putting it on shipping systems, they make their direction clear to developers, possibly motivating some to move a little faster. >Note that Linux was mentioned explicitly but not the BSDs. Linux has more mindshare than the BSDs. This is not news. BSD is starting to get more mindshare, partly as a result of its inclusion in Mac OS X. This is news. Whether this will translate to any adoptions of FreeBSD is, of course, an open question. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 12: 7:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EC437B401 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f53J6u623962; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:06:57 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 20:52:10 +0200 To: Rich Morin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:55 AM -0700 6/3/01, Rich Morin wrote: > An interesting, if ill-defined conjecture. Do you meant that the > Mac OS X software on most received machines is never activated or > that it isn't activated as often as the Mac OS 9 software? Since MacOS X has only very recently started shipping on every new machine (but not turned on by default), it's almost certain that he is not referring to MacOS X. > They also decided to ship a Developer Tools > CD with every boxed set of Mac OS X. This is pretty radical stuff. Don't expect this to last. As soon as MacOS X Server (OSXS) 2.0 is shipping, I would expect the developer tools to disappear from MacOS X itself. They really do want to restrict this stuff to just developers and very early adopters, and everyone else can damn well pay the $1000 it will cost, if they really want this stuff. Face it, that's just the kind of crappy attitude that Apple has. >>OS X has a ways to go yet before the average user >>will want to run it. > > We have it running on a couple of machines. It seems to be stable, > capable, and well-thought-out. I hate to say it, but I'm with Brett on this. No support for Lucent/Agere WaveLAN/Orinoco cards (even though they are supported in MacOS 9 as "AirPort PC Cards", and the Apple AirPort card is actually just a slightly modified Lucent/Agere WaveLAN/Orinoco card with the external antenna removed and a replacement fitting to attach to the built-in antenna in AirPort-compatible computers. Limited support for true Unix filesystems (still works best with Mac HFS and HFS+). The Finder clearly still has a long ways to go. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done on the Dock, and some solution needs to be found for the Control Strip. There's more, but I think this is enough. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 13:43:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B8337B405 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unixverse@mac.com) Received: from [63.197.41.50] by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0GED0067FG8US1@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:43:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 13:43:32 -0700 From: Jim Krenz Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? In-reply-to: To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org on 6/3/01 8:55 AM, Rich Morin at rdm@cfcl.com wrote: > Linux has more mindshare than the BSDs. This is not news. BSD is > starting to get more mindshare, partly as a result of its inclusion > in Mac OS X. This is news. Whether this will translate to any > adoptions of FreeBSD is, of course, an open question. Well, it has at least added one: me. I've been an Apple computer user since the early eighties, starting with an Apple IIe. When I got Mac OS X, I was very intrigued with its Unix core, and wanted to explore it. However, I was afraid that I might mess something up (and this being my main computer, I refrained). I came into possession of an antique Pentium machine that was sluggishly running Windows 95. After doing a bit of research, I erased the hard disk and figured out how to install FreeBSD 4.3 on it. Since this machine was next to useless otherwise, I figured that I had nothing to lose. In the past couple of days, I have slowly started learning about the system. I have now have Apache running on it. I have figured out how to use vi. Groups and Permissions are giving me some trouble (its a new concept for me), but I am starting to get them. Other than a telnet problem that has suddenly occurred, it has been pretty smooth sailing this last week and a half. I plan on figuring out Sendmail (so I can avoid the fidgety Pacbell servers) and want to learn a bit about MySQL and PHP. Maybe even poke around with DNS. If Mac OS X hadn't inspired me, that old Pentium would still be sitting in the corner, gathering dust. And FreeBSD would be another meaningless acronym. Jim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 14:30:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C7537B401 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04302; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f53LWIK21110; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:32:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:24:37 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:52 PM +0200 6/3/01, Brad Knowles wrote: >At 8:55 AM -0700 6/3/01, Rich Morin wrote: >>They also decided to ship a Developer Tools CD with every boxed set >>of Mac OS X. This is pretty radical stuff. > > Don't expect this to last. As soon as MacOS X Server (OSXS) 2.0 is >shipping, I would expect the developer tools to disappear from MacOS X >itself. They really do want to restrict this stuff to just developers and >very early adopters, and everyone else can damn well pay the $1000 it will >cost, if they really want this stuff. > > Face it, that's just the kind of crappy attitude that Apple has. Actually, they announced the new Mac OS X Server at WWDC 2001 and I have not heard them backing away from shipping the Developer Tools in the base release. At least some parts of Apple appear to realize that they have more to gain from acquiring new developers than from squeezing a small number of developers for $1000 each. I may be naive or you may be cynical; what say we wait a few months to see how things shake out. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 15:16:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2823237B401 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27793 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f53MI1K31841 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:29:56 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:43 PM -0700 6/3/01, Jim Krenz wrote: >Well, it has at least added one: me. >... >In the past couple of days, I have slowly started learning about the system. If you can find a copy, you might want to spend an evening or two on "The Unix Programming Environment" (Kernighan and Pike). It gives a nice overview of Unix philosophy, mixed in with a lot of useful lore. -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 17: 9:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF18837B401 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:09:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5408v612665; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 02:08:58 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 02:08:47 +0200 To: Rich Morin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:24 PM -0700 6/3/01, Rich Morin wrote: > Actually, they announced the new Mac OS X Server at WWDC 2001 and I have > not heard them backing away from shipping the Developer Tools in the base > release. At least some parts of Apple appear to realize that they have > more to gain from acquiring new developers than from squeezing a small > number of developers for $1000 each. > > I may be naive or you may be cynical; what say we wait a few months to > see how things shake out. They might not pull back on the developers tools with MacOS X immediately, but I'd be willing to bet significant sums of money that they'll do it relatively soon -- maybe within six months, or perhaps a year. Still, the only way to find out is to wait and see what they do. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 17:49: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B60B37B405 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07627; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f540oUK68053; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:42:55 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:08 AM +0200 6/4/01, Brad Knowles wrote: > They might not pull back on the developers tools with MacOS >X >immediately, but I'd be willing to bet significant sums of money >that >they'll do it relatively soon -- maybe within six months, or perhaps >a year. Well, I've just bet several thousand dollars (the production costs for Issue 1 of The Darwin Collection - http://www.ptf.com/tdc) and a fair amount of my copious free time that they will continue to encourage Unix-oriented activity for some time to come, so I'll pass on your gracious offer (:-). The Developer Tool CD contains a variety of items, ranging from BSD and GNU tools and libraries to things like Interface Builder and Project Builder. The former will be supplied by assorted Apple followers, but the latter can only be supplied by Apple itself. Here's hoping that Apple realizes that their future market share is critically dependent on attracting a broad and deep new set of developers, including folks who simply won't pay big bucks to play with Apple's development tools. > Still, the only way to find out is to wait and see what they do. Yep... -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 3 18: 5:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D7A37B401 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) X-IP-Test: 207.54.148.235 Received: from localhost (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f54157H13173 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200106040105.f54157H13173@madcap.apk.net> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:04:48 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1181393193-1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.388) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v388) In-Reply-To: <001701c0e75b$42e79f90$0e0101c0@CTHULHU> Subject: Re: Compiler? (was: The desktop apathy) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Apple-Mail-1181393193-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii On Monday, May 28, 2001, at 05:47 AM, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- >> I'm toying with the idea of buying one of those ibooks, too. It would >> probably have been an easier decision if Mac OS X actually ran X >> natively. As things stand, most of my favourite programs will >> probably not run at all, or be pretty unstable... > > What would be a good system on which to run MacOS X? I've heard that > the > system needs a G4 as a minimum, so I guess a cheap, used, iMac is out > of > the > question? I am using a B&W G3 350. It runs quite well. You can actually get a refurbished G4 for under $1000, so that's an option too. I like my G3 because it has ADB, USB, and Firewire. I can use old accessories on the ADB bus. However, the newer G4 machines have a faster bus and AGP video. --Apple-Mail-1181393193-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii On Monday, May 28, 2001, at 05:47 AM, Fredrik Olausson wrote: ----- Original Message ----- I'm toying with the idea of buying one of those ibooks, too. It would probably have been an easier decision if Mac OS X actually ran X natively. As things stand, most of my favourite programs will probably not run at all, or be pretty unstable... What would be a good system on which to run MacOS X? I've heard that the system needs a G4 as a minimum, so I guess a cheap, used, iMac is out of the question? I am using a B&W G3 350. It runs quite well. You can actually get a refurbished G4 for under $1000, so that's an option too. I like my G3 because it has ADB, USB, and Firewire. I can use old accessories on the ADB bus. However, the newer G4 machines have a faster bus and AGP video. 0000,0000,DEB7 0000,0000,DEB7 --Apple-Mail-1181393193-1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 4 12: 8:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0CF837B432 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:08:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 156zie-00008y-00; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:08:52 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f54J8pR66119; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:08:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:08:51 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, grog@lemis.com Subject: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I haven't done any searching on where this thread might have started, but i thought maybe i would add my thoughts. I have been very nervous about both the BSDi merger and now the Wind River merger. I do not have negative thoughts about the companies as much as i do the future of (Free)BSD. I recently asked if the Wind River acquisition would affect the release schedule for FreeBSD. One -chat reply was "why would it ?" Well, the reason i thought it might would be that decisions by the new 'parent' company could add or take away from full-time BSD developers. Additionally, having more or less direction could affect the pace of current projects. Lastly, a company with potentially hostile or at least purely selfish intentions could hardly help the project. Any or all of these factors could cause core members to resign, committers to become frustrated, and interest to decline. On another angle, i agree that the Open Source model lacks and clearly needs a better management model. Witness the plethora of Yet-Another-Window-Manager and Me-Too email clients, and contrast that with the glaring lack of good CAD, circuit design, desktop publishing, and other such special application tools. Disclaimer: if i am unaware of a tool that fills one of these needs to the degree that it is or can be professionally accepted and used as well as an existing commercial product, by all means, i stand corrected. But i would dare say the exceptions are few and far between. Lastly, like Greg said, much of the problem stems from the fact that the contributors are voluntary. Very few of them have the time to help design and implement (for example) a professional FreeBSD CAD package. And understandably so, if their time is not compensated in some way. We work for a living X hours a week, and divide the remainder between necessary chores and personal choices to spend free time. It is quite difficult to undertake a huge project, IMHO, and spend much less than a full-time job's worth of time on it. Those with the experience, often lack the free time, while those with the free time, often lack the experience. But then again, what do i know? I'm just a lowly student who loves computers and hopes to make a living writing software. :-) jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 4 12:43:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2C637B405 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1355"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4DHCXHDC40006LK@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:43:06 EST Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:50:52 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------614C0BB35A86524C4264FA3B" X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------614C0BB35A86524C4264FA3B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit j mckitrick wrote: > > I haven't done any searching on where this thread might have started, but i > thought maybe i would add my thoughts. > > I have been very nervous about both the BSDi merger and now the Wind River > merger. I do not have negative thoughts about the companies as much as i do > the future of (Free)BSD. I recently asked if the Wind River acquisition would > affect the release schedule for FreeBSD. One -chat reply was "why would it ?" > > Well, the reason i thought it might would be that decisions by the new > 'parent' company could add or take away from full-time BSD developers. > Additionally, having more or less direction could affect the pace of current > projects. Lastly, a company with potentially hostile or at least purely > selfish intentions could hardly help the project. Any or all of these > factors could cause core members to resign, committers to become frustrated, > and interest to decline. > > On another angle, i agree that the Open Source model lacks and clearly needs > a better management model. Witness the plethora of > Yet-Another-Window-Manager and Me-Too email clients, and contrast that with > the glaring lack of good CAD, circuit design, desktop publishing, and other > such special application tools. Disclaimer: if i am unaware of a tool that > fills one of these needs to the degree that it is or can be professionally > accepted and used as well as an existing commercial product, by all means, i > stand corrected. But i would dare say the exceptions are few and far > between. > CAD tools, Well..there's VARKON: http://www.varkon.com/ But...if the free tools are not ported yet to FreeBSD, what makes you think the commercial ones will? I doubt there is interest for CAD tools under FreeBSD :(. ... > > But then again, what do i know? I'm just a lowly student who loves computers > and hopes to make a living writing software. :-) > Lose all faith... I love computers too, but I suspect studying Mechanical Engineering was the best I could've done. Pedro. --------------614C0BB35A86524C4264FA3B Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pfg1.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pfg1.vcf" begin:vcard n:Giffuni;Pedro tel;fax:1 (360) 343-0501 tel;home:(412) 665 2956 tel;work:(412) 624-9862 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/giffunip/ org:University of Pittsburgh;Industrial Engineering adr:;;5820 Elwood St. Apt. 34;Pittsburgh;PA;15232;USA version:2.1 email;internet:giffunip@asme.org title:Teaching Assistant fn:Pedro F. Giffuni end:vcard --------------614C0BB35A86524C4264FA3B-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 4 13:32:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from messiah.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B998B37B401 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:32:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by messiah.megadeb.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f54KYIb13805 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:34:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:34:17 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010604223417.B10655@messiah.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 08:08:51PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 08:08:51PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > Yet-Another-Window-Manager and Me-Too email clients, and contrast that with > the glaring lack of good CAD, circuit design, desktop publishing, and other > such special application tools. Disclaimer: if i am unaware of a tool that > fills one of these needs to the degree that it is or can be professionally > accepted and used as well as an existing commercial product, by all means, i > stand corrected. But i would dare say the exceptions are few and far > between. I have been hoping for the past couple of years that some university CS club (think Berkeley, MIT, Waterloo, Stanford, etc.) would take up something like this as a project...after all that's how Gimp (and others) got started. BTW, isn't 'spice' accepted as a competitive circuit design tool? -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 4 16: 0:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C37937B403; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA75771; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 01:00:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: John Baldwin Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 05 Jun 2001 01:00:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin writes: > On the contrary, you don't buy the part of the company that is losing money. > You buy the part that is making money. Your presumptions are rather wrong, > but that's all I'll say. It's not necessarily as b&w as you describe. There are many reasons why a company (or a division) makes money (or doesn't); what works in one company or in one market doesn't necessarily work in another. A division that fails to turn a profit in the context of one company may still become a valuable asset to another company, and selling it off may be a good way for the first company to unload some ballast. (not that I'm saying that this is what's happening here - just that the world is not all black and white) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 4 16: 6:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168AD37B403 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:06:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f54N6mK56106; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:06:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f54N6kS72888; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:06:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:06:46 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Thomas M. Sommers" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04-Jun-01 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > John Baldwin writes: >> On the contrary, you don't buy the part of the company that is losing money. >> You buy the part that is making money. Your presumptions are rather wrong, >> but that's all I'll say. > > It's not necessarily as b&w as you describe. There are many reasons > why a company (or a division) makes money (or doesn't); what works in > one company or in one market doesn't necessarily work in another. A > division that fails to turn a profit in the context of one company may > still become a valuable asset to another company, and selling it off > may be a good way for the first company to unload some ballast. > > (not that I'm saying that this is what's happening here - just that > the world is not all black and white) Fair enough. I was speaking more specifically at the situation in question in an attempt to at least keep the flow of FUD down to a small torrent. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 3:21:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2647237B403 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 03:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010605102152.71649.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.12.184] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 05 Jun 2001 03:21:52 PDT Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 03:21:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Unixii? To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <003c01c0ed9a$abd9d460$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Ted Mittelstaedt wrote in questions: > Ah yes, but I wasn't thinking of that. It's much more usage in > various news > and trade publications to the commercial Unixii such as Solaris that > is > the danger, and it's something we all see a lot. Yes, let's reduce them to Unixii ;-). That's even purer than arian Unixen. One little step for Mankind, one huge step for an Erudite west of the Rockies to qualify for them Dixie version of "Wanna be a Millionaire!". They also call QNX Qoonix in some parts of the world. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 3:59:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E560137B403 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 03:59:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 157EYo-0001VA-00; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:59:42 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f55Axgf83557; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:59:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:59:42 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:50:52PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | But...if the free tools are not ported yet to FreeBSD, what makes you | think the commercial ones will? I doubt there is interest for CAD | tools under FreeBSD :(. That's why the commercial world will always consider FreeBSD a server OS. | Lose all faith... I love computers too, but I suspect studying | Mechanical Engineering was the best I could've done. There will always be jobs in any field for those who love what they do and who are reliable, productive workers. Content-Description: Card for Pedro F. Giffuni jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 7: 8:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2D237B403 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 07:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f55E8Sr39008 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 02:08:28 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106051408.f55E8Sr39008@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:08:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: San Jose bound.... Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, I'm about to invade California again. This is your first and only warning. I'll be in San Jose late Monday morning and flying out late Wednesday night (11-13 June). Any thing much going on? -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 11:13:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [64.211.219.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C2337B403 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA21728; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:13:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA_DayxQ; Tue Jun 5 11:13:33 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17590; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:15:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106051815.LAA17590@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The desktop apathy To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 18:15:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), ugly-daemon@home.com (Chris Moline), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010529194223.P3636@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 29, 2001 07:42:24 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like > CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. No, we'd be paying for Visix LookingGlass, and we'd all be much happier. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 11:51:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D0237B406 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:51:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1258"@[136.142.22.211]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4ETTZSK1I000DAG@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:51:16 EST Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 14:59:07 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > > | But...if the free tools are not ported yet to FreeBSD, what makes you > | think the commercial ones will? I doubt there is interest for CAD > | tools under FreeBSD :(. > > That's why the commercial world will always consider FreeBSD a server OS. > It's the chicken and egg problem :(. > | Lose all faith... I love computers too, but I suspect studying > | Mechanical Engineering was the best I could've done. > > There will always be jobs in any field for those who love what they do and > who are reliable, productive workers. > Unless there is a big group of reliable, productive people that work for free. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 11:58:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [64.211.219.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A9137B403 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:58:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09803; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:58:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAZlaagt; Tue Jun 5 11:58:39 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18640; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:00:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106051900.MAA18640@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:00:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010530112848.H57297@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 30, 2001 11:28:48 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > I'll be obliged. Also if you can point at one "InterJet" or > > > > "IBM Web Connections" ad which mentions features specific to, > > > > or use of, FreeBSD. > > > > > > I'm not familiar with these. > > > > OK, so pick "FreeGate" or "Encanto" or "CacheFlow"; whatever. > > Let's take a better known example: Microsoft. In 1995 they used BSD > code for their networking in Windows 95. They widely trumpeted the > networking features in their advertisements (the Internet was just > catching on, and Windows 3.1 didn't have any inbuilt internet > capability). I don't recall any acknowledgement of UCB in Microsoft's > advertisements. Was that, or was it not, a violation of the > advertising clause (which had not yet been removed at that time)? They paid in excess of $2M for the port of the code. Not that that buys them out, necessarily, but I'm not entirely privvy to the terms of their license purchase: it could very well have included a buyout.. > My claim is that the advertising clause would have been violated more > often than honoured, even by well-meaning people. Moreover, it was > inconsistent with the goal of allowing the maximum number of people to > use the software with the least amount of hassle. Good thing there is no such thing as an "advertising clause", except in the cockles of RMS's mind, then... > Dropping it was a good thing. Dropping the claim credit clause was a sill ass political knee-jerk reaction to pressure from, among others, SGI, whose chief scientist was in the middle of helping the company self-destruct with the help of the GPL being applied to all their strategic intellectual property, like XFS. They are basically a hollow shell, with their stock hovering around $2 at an ($4.68) EPS (parens == a loss). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 12: 7:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FD437B401 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:07:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f55J4MS27152; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:04:22 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:04:16 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > j mckitrick wrote: > > > > There will always be jobs in any field for those who love what they do and > > who are reliable, productive workers. > > > > Unless there is a big group of reliable, productive people that work > for free. > Prostitution is redundant then? A quick drive through the red light district prooves there are a lot of 'jobs' although there is "a big group of reliable, productive people that 'work' for free". I'm sure that I could have found a more eloquent example, but this popped in my head first and, well, it's been going on since the dawn of time, so it is undisputable. The simple fact is that people, businesses etc will always be willing to pay for services that they can get for free, be it computing related or not. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 12: 8:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B0137B428 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f55J5sS27187; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:05:54 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3B1D2D8D.80442E1B@duth.gr> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:05:49 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy References: <200106051815.LAA17590@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like > > CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. > > No, we'd be paying for Visix LookingGlass, and we'd all be much > happier. > Whatever happened to that? A quick google search yielded no relevant results... --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 12:51:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2142937B401 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06357; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:49:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 13:49:25 -0600 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:04 PM 6/5/2001, Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: >Prostitution is redundant then? A quick drive through the red light district >prooves there are a lot of 'jobs' although there is "a big group of reliable, >productive people that 'work' for free". Reliable? The fact that they are not "reliable" is the reason, alas, that many turn to prostitutes. >The simple fact is that people, businesses etc will always be willing to pay >for services that they can get for free, be it computing related or not. Sex is never free. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 13: 6:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FD837B403 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:06:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 157N66-000NRq-00; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:06:38 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f55K6bd94481; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:06:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:06:36 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010605210636.A94413@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:49:25PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:49:25PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: | At 01:04 PM 6/5/2001, Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: | | >Prostitution is redundant then? A quick drive through the red light district | >prooves there are a lot of 'jobs' although there is "a big group of reliable, | >productive people that 'work' for free". | | Reliable? The fact that they are not "reliable" is the reason, | alas, that many turn to prostitutes. | | >The simple fact is that people, businesses etc will always be willing to pay | >for services that they can get for free, be it computing related or not. | | Sex is never free. The price is not for the sex itself, but for the lack of the usual complications involved. However, there will be needs that will not be filled quickly enough by these kinds of programmers, and there will be projects that none of them want to do. So, there will remain a market for programmers-for-hire to fill that need. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 13:42:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [64.211.219.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840B537B403 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:42:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23521; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:42:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAeHaG5T; Tue Jun 5 13:41:58 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29684; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:44:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106052044.NAA29684@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The desktop apathy To: kkonstan@duth.gr (Konstantinos Konstantinidis) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:43:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), ugly-daemon@home.com (Chris Moline), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B1D2D8D.80442E1B@duth.gr> from "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" at Jun 05, 2001 10:05:49 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like > > > CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. > > > > No, we'd be paying for Visix LookingGlass, and we'd all be much > > happier. > > > > Whatever happened to that? A quick google search yielded no relevant > results... It's mentioned in a lot of places on the net... I guess google sucks. 8-). It was taken over by Vertex Developement; see the presentation at: http://www.vertexdev.com/~jeff/LinuxLG/index.html Here is a review of the version that ships with Caldera Linux: http://ncc1701e.net/LDP/LDP/LG/issue30/nelson.html Here is an article by a Visix co-founder: http://www.sdmagazine.com/articles/1996/9603/9603n/9603n.htm Here is one of their former support engineers resumes: http://www.badgertronics.com/writings/resume-full.html The author of FTEditSys claims it's not available any longer: http://www.linuxutilities.org/Utilities/FTEditSys.html Caldera Linux used to ship with them at one time (being forced to use "moolit" was one of the reasons that some of the original people left Novell to start Caldera; I used to work with most of them, at one time or another, during my 4 years at Novell): http://www.caldera.com/support/docs/1.1/base/addendum/english/title.html Here are other sundry references: http://www.prescient.com/articles/Usability/Usability.html http://zeus.uwindsor.ca/public/upgrade_62.html http://wint.decsy.ru/du/RTR/COPYR_0S.HTM http://www.non.com/news.answers/cde-cose-faq.html http://www.landfield.com/faqs/x-faq/part3/section-15.html There is also a site, http://www.lglass.com/, but it appears to be dead right now. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 13:42:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53AB337B401 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:42:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1283"@[136.142.20.177]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4EXPRPFH2000PH0@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:42:23 EST Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 16:48:45 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B1D45AD.63FAF080@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> <20010605210636.A94413@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > ... > | Sex is never free. > > The price is not for the sex itself, but for the lack of the usual > complications involved. > Hmm...I'm no expert on the subject but that's somewhat naive. > However, there will be needs that will not be filled quickly enough by these > kinds of programmers, and there will be projects that none of them want to > do. So, there will remain a market for programmers-for-hire to fill that > need. > Of course, mercenaries still exist. Well, we are not yet in a very critical situation, but I do think the combination GNU/ college students will bring problems to the market sooner or later. Hmm...I'll better shut up or I'll start talking about the old days when people had real jobs and not just short termed contracts. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 14:22:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7F537B403 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f55LMPS30811; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 00:22:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3B1D4D8C.171149AE@duth.gr> Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 00:22:20 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy References: <200106052044.NAA29684@usr01.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Whatever happened to that? A quick google search yielded no relevant > > results... > [SNIP OBSCENELY LONG LIST OF RELEVANT URLS] Thanks a lot, i'll be busy reading! --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 14:42:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C38A37B401 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 86475 invoked by uid 100); 5 Jun 2001 21:42:49 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15133.21081.613768.10453@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:42:49 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <200106051815.LAA17590@usr08.primenet.com> References: <20010529194223.P3636@lpt.ens.fr> <200106051815.LAA17590@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like > > CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. > No, we'd be paying for Visix LookingGlass, and we'd all be much > happier. Please speak for yourself, not for others. I might be wiling to accept that people who want/like/need/will-put-up-with KDE, Gnome or CDE would be much happier, but not everyone fits into that category. I evaluated LookingGlass for a client once upon a time. Nothing I've learned about UI design since would make me change that negative evaluation - just the opposite, in fact. It's possible the product has changed enough to change that evaluation, but I've no interest in doing it again. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 15:37:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A79C37B401 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:37:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jpedras@webvolution.net) Received: from mobinho.tafkap.priv ([213.13.96.8]) by fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010605224456.IRFT18276.fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt@mobinho.tafkap.priv> for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 23:44:56 +0100 Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 23:37:40 +0100 From: Joao Pedras To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: compat.linux.osname & staroffice Message-ID: <227500000.991780660@mobinho.tafkap.priv> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.6 (FreeBSD/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ever tried to INSTALL StarOffice, using the port or not, previously changing the value of sysctl's compat.linux.osname to something other than 'Linux' ? Install stops at something because it can't find .../tmp/sv001.tmp/somelib.lib (or similar location), right after deleting the contents of that very same directory. Funny... Joao To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 5 20:59:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD7637B401 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11156; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:57:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605215604.053fea90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 21:57:54 -0600 To: j mckitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010605210636.A94413@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:06 PM 6/5/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >The price is not for the sex itself, but for the lack of the usual >complications involved. Ah, but there are other likely complications -- legal, social, and medical. Patronizing a prostitute is risky business. >However, there will be needs that will not be filled quickly enough by these >kinds of programmers, and there will be projects that none of them want to >do. So, there will remain a market for programmers-for-hire to fill that >need. In short, programmers will be reduced to doing grunt work and dirty work at low pay. This is exactly what Stallman envisions in his "GNU Manifesto." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 0:22:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA7737B40A for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 00:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f567JXO81525; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 00:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010606001933H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 00:19:33 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 40 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: j mckitrick Subject: BSD direction/Damonnews article Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:08:51 +0100 > I have been very nervous about both the BSDi merger and now the Wind River > merger. I do not have negative thoughts about the companies as much as i do These things always make me really curious. Either people are giving companies far more credit for influence wielded or they're grossly underestimating the resilience of open source projects. Do you really think that if SGI, for example, were to stop supporting Linux that the Linux community as a whole would come to a screeching halt or indeed even particularly notice beyond the inevitable throw-away slashdot postings? I don't think so. The same goes for FreeBSD. Yes, WindRiver does employ around 8 people to do FreeBSD-related work and that's certainly a very useful contribution. If those people were to suddenly need to shift jobs for whatever reason, however, then that would hardly mean the end of their careers or contribution to FreeBSD. They'd simply get jobs elsewhere, preferably FreeBSD-related. While you wouldn't perhaps see the same level of contribution from those specific people for awhile, the slack would get picked up. There are well over 200 people in committers now and if 5 or 10 go AWOL at any particular time, even when they're "key people" on some particular sub-project, people tend to react to their absence and seek to fill the hole. FreeBSD has been going on for just about 10 years now and it's far bigger than any one contributor, company or institution. When people or companies contribute to the project then it certainly _helps_ to a great degree, that's nothing I'd even want to down-play, but it shows a remarkable ability to heal itself and move on when those people or companies move on to other things. I'd save your nervousness for something more significant, like the next global military conflict. We're currently overdue for one of those. ;) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 3:30:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB8537B40A for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 03:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA86900; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 06:29:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 06:29:37 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010606062937.A86880@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010606001933H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010606001933H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 12:19:33AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 12:19:33AM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > I'd save your nervousness for something more significant, like the > next global military conflict. We're currently overdue for one of > those. ;) You know what makes *me* nervous... The military here in the States uses NT for some of their control systems on some ships. Meanwhile, foreign powers are free to use whatever they like, in particular software with secrecy-friendly licenses such as FreeBSD. Now that would be a test of software! And here I am on the side defended by NT... ==ml PS: This post is actually on-topic for this list. Wow, -chat pretty much is useless, isn't it? -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 3:34: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C0237B40A for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 03:33:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 157adL-000Khq-00; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:33:51 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f56AXpC10980; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:33:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:33:50 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Michael Lucas Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010606113350.B10652@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010606001933H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010606062937.A86880@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010606062937.A86880@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 06:29:37AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | You know what makes *me* nervous... | | The military here in the States uses NT for some of their control | systems on some ships. Meanwhile, foreign powers are free to use | whatever they like, in particular software with secrecy-friendly | licenses such as FreeBSD. | | Now that would be a test of software! And here I am on the side | defended by NT... Thanks, Mike, for giving me another Maalox moment. ;-) | PS: This post is actually on-topic for this list. Wow, -chat pretty | much is useless, isn't it? And just *which* list do you think you are on right now? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 9: 7: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C931237B401 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:06:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B751A18D7; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C4218D6; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:28:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Michael Lucas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <20010606062937.A86880@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The military here in the States uses NT for some of their control > systems on some ships. Meanwhile, foreign powers are free to use > whatever they like, in particular software with secrecy-friendly > licenses such as FreeBSD. > > Now that would be a test of software! And here I am on the side > defended by NT... I wish I still had the link, but there was an article a couple of years ago about the Navy testing out a new "fully automated" warship running NT. Apparently one of the 75+ systems blue screened and left the ship DOA in the water. :0 Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 10:44:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3297537B403 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:44:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 14972 invoked by uid 100); 6 Jun 2001 17:44:50 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15134.27666.250178.828032@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:44:50 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: j mckitrick , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605215604.053fea90@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010605215604.053fea90@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 02:06 PM 6/5/2001, j mckitrick wrote: > >However, there will be needs that will not be filled quickly enough by these > >kinds of programmers, and there will be projects that none of them want to > >do. So, there will remain a market for programmers-for-hire to fill that > >need. > In short, programmers will be reduced to doing grunt work and dirty work > at low pay. All true, if you define "grunt work" as "more than 30% time spent doing things you don't want to do" and "low pay" as "less than Gates and Ellison make". Which pretty much describes the state of writing software for a living whether the GPL exists or not. Those interested in a more level-headed look at the salaries of engineers and programmers might want to check out Philip Greenspun's Career Guide . Philip managed to break out of the gruntwork for low pay model with software he gave away, at least until he let professional managers run the company. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 11:59:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3984B37B409 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id NAA120363365 Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:59:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA12233; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:00:32 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Rick Hamell Cc: Michael Lucas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010606120032.A12215@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010606062937.A86880@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from hamellr@heorot.1nova.com on Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:28:58AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a hard time believing that a foreign government interested in national defense is going to care at all about what kind of license an OS is released under. [RC] On Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:28:58AM -0700, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > The military here in the States uses NT for some of their control > > systems on some ships. Meanwhile, foreign powers are free to use > > whatever they like, in particular software with secrecy-friendly > > licenses such as FreeBSD. > > > > Now that would be a test of software! And here I am on the side > > defended by NT... > > I wish I still had the link, but there was an article a couple of > years ago about the Navy testing out a new "fully automated" warship > running NT. Apparently one of the 75+ systems blue screened and left the > ship DOA in the water. :0 > > Rick > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 17:39:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E676037B403 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:39:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id TAA118867927 Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:39:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12646; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:40:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:40:29 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: j mckitrick Cc: Brett Glass , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010606174029.B12616@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> <20010605210636.A94413@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010605210636.A94413@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:06:36PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A new T-shirt design? BSD or GPL? Spit or swallow? [RC] On Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:06:36PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > On Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:49:25PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > | At 01:04 PM 6/5/2001, Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > | > | >Prostitution is redundant then? A quick drive through the red light district > | >prooves there are a lot of 'jobs' although there is "a big group of reliable, > | >productive people that 'work' for free". > | > | Reliable? The fact that they are not "reliable" is the reason, > | alas, that many turn to prostitutes. > | > | >The simple fact is that people, businesses etc will always be willing to pay > | >for services that they can get for free, be it computing related or not. > | > | Sex is never free. > > The price is not for the sex itself, but for the lack of the usual > complications involved. > > However, there will be needs that will not be filled quickly enough by these > kinds of programmers, and there will be projects that none of them want to > do. So, there will remain a market for programmers-for-hire to fill that > need. > > > > jcm > -- > "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 18:13:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B521537B405 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 18:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22935; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:12:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606190842.0534b2b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 19:12:02 -0600 To: Jordan Hubbard , jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com In-Reply-To: <20010606001933H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:19 AM 6/6/2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >These things always make me really curious. Either people are giving >companies far more credit for influence wielded This is the New Gilded Age, in which corporations have larger economies and more influence than many countries. It's easy to see why people might expect corporations to play a role. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 18:49:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57AE337B401 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 18:49:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@kleenex.apk.net) Received: from [192.168.1.60] (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f571nXR01033 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:49:24 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis Reply-To: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <604134.991864144@[192.168.1.60]> In-Reply-To: <200106051815.LAA17590@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200106051815.LAA17590@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0a6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Tuesday, June 5, 2001 6:15 PM +0000 Terry Lambert wrote: >> Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like >> CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. > > No, we'd be paying for Visix LookingGlass, and we'd all be much > happier. I kind of liked LG. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 19:16:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2894E37B405 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23529; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:16:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606201558.00de8e20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 20:16:34 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: j mckitrick , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , "Pedro F. Giffuni" In-Reply-To: <15134.27666.250178.828032@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605215604.053fea90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010605215604.053fea90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:44 AM 6/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >All true, if you define "grunt work" as "more than 30% time spent >doing things you don't want to do" and "low pay" as "less than Gates >and Ellison make". Which YOU might, but no rational person would. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 19:58:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC21237B405 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:58:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f572tAO92076; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:55:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: brett@lariat.org Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606190842.0534b2b0@localhost> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010606001933H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010606190842.0534b2b0@localhost> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010606195510N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 19:55:10 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 28 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Erm, I don't see how that follows. The CIA has enormous resources and a 9 figure yearly budget (that we know about), but that doesn't mean I expect them to go out of their way to tap my phone. They certainly *could* tap my phone, sure, but why should they bother? The same applies to the assumption that corporations are out to bend open source to their will or are even particularly interested in it, and vice-versa. - Jordan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 19:12:02 -0600 > At 01:19 AM 6/6/2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > >These things always make me really curious. Either people are giving > >companies far more credit for influence wielded > > This is the New Gilded Age, in which corporations have > larger economies and more influence than many countries. > It's easy to see why people might expect corporations to > play a role. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 20: 7:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512CF37B406 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 42B6E18D7; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F0418D6 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:07:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <20010606195510N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Erm, I don't see how that follows. The CIA has enormous resources and > a 9 figure yearly budget (that we know about), but that doesn't mean I > expect them to go out of their way to tap my phone. They certainly > *could* tap my phone, sure, but why should they bother? The same > applies to the assumption that corporations are out to bend open > source to their will or are even particularly interested in it, and > vice-versa. Break out the tin foil and wire coat hangers... I'm going to be running gcc. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 20:27:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36B937B406 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:27:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24332; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:26:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606211957.05031420@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:26:05 -0600 To: Jordan Hubbard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010606195510N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606190842.0534b2b0@localhost> <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010606001933H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010606190842.0534b2b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:55 PM 6/6/2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >Erm, I don't see how that follows. The CIA has enormous resources and >a 9 figure yearly budget (that we know about), but that doesn't mean I >expect them to go out of their way to tap my phone. They certainly >*could* tap my phone, sure, but why should they bother? No, but they might tap your phone for other reasons.... For example, your involvement with that subversive software stuff (including an OS that contains -- horrors! -- strong encryption). Or other things we won't go into here. ;-) >The same >applies to the assumption that corporations are out to bend open >source to their will or are even particularly interested in it, They have good reasons, though much more so in the case of GPLed code. (The purpose of the GPL is, after all, to destroy businesses.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 21:46:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF79037B405 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 31864 invoked by uid 100); 7 Jun 2001 04:46:09 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15135.1809.218307.971553@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:46:09 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <15134.27666.250178.828032@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605215604.053fea90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010605134751.00a9fd90@localhost> <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> <20010605115941.B83419@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B1D2BFB.B0256B6@pitt.edu> <3B1D2D30.E122644A@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010606201558.00de8e20@localhost> <15134.27666.250178.828032@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 11:44 AM 6/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Brett Glass types: > > > At 02:06 PM 6/5/2001, j mckitrick wrote: > > > >However, there will be needs that will not be filled quickly enough by these > > > >kinds of programmers, and there will be projects that none of them want to > > > >do. So, there will remain a market for programmers-for-hire to fill that > > > >need. > > > In short, programmers will be reduced to doing grunt work and dirty work > > > at low pay. > >Only true if you define "grunt work" as "more than 30% time spent > >doing things you don't want to do" and "low pay" as "less than Gates > >and Ellison make". > Which YOU might, but no rational person would. Absolutely. No rational person would accept those definitions. Being logical as well as rational, I can see what their being false says about Brett's original statement. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 22:21:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5025C37B405 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:21:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f575LSL41414 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:21:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:21:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Looking at My Apache Logs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I took a look at my Apache access logs for the first time in a while. Something very strange started happening at the beginning of April. There are bunches of entries for GET requests for warez and porn domains. There are corresponding "File does not exist errors" in my error logs. There are about twenty such hits each day. The various client IPs seem to repeat on this day and that. How on earth can my server even get hit with these requests? Why would a client be sent to my server when looking for "justwarez.com" or "perfectbutts.com"? This makes no sense to me unless multiple someones out there has had screwed up DNS for two whole months and didn't notice. Any ideas? Thanks, Jason C. Wells (please CC me) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 6 23:46: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996D137B407 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:46:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26183; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 00:45:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010607004516.050fa910@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:45:43 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Looking at My Apache Logs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My guess: They're looking for open proxies. --Brett At 11:21 PM 6/6/2001, Jason C. Wells wrote: >I took a look at my Apache access logs for the first time in a while. >Something very strange started happening at the beginning of April. >There are bunches of entries for GET requests for warez and porn domains. >There are corresponding "File does not exist errors" in my error logs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 5:44:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3919A37B405 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 05:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 157z9B-0006jQ-00; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:44:21 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f57Chm941818; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:43:48 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:43:47 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010607134347.A41764@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010606001933H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010606190842.0534b2b0@localhost> <20010606195510N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010606195510N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:55:10PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | *could* tap my phone, sure, but why should they bother? The same | applies to the assumption that corporations are out to bend open | source to their will or are even particularly interested in it, and | vice-versa. But if the corporation owns the servers, pays any of the top developers, or owns a competing product... well, there are plenty of examples of what can happen, and it usually isn't good. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 5:54: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F8F37B409 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 05:53:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f57CopO94230; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 05:50:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <20010607134347.A41764@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606190842.0534b2b0@localhost> <20010606195510N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010607134347.A41764@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010607055051K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:50:51 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: j mckitrick Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:43:47 +0100 > But if the corporation owns the servers, pays any of the top developers, or > owns a competing product... well, there are plenty of examples of what can > happen, and it usually isn't good. Well, the FreeBSD project owns its servers (they're all at Yahoo!) and I think the percentage of "top developers" who work for any corporation matching that description are low enough and stubborn enough that I don't see how "massive ungoodness" could happen. Don't also assume that said developers will just roll over and submit to the will of their employer if things go sour, either. Just about all the ones I personally know of would simply print their resumes and walk out in the face of massive pointy-hairedness since all the "top developers" know they're also massively employable here. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 6: 1: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6237637B409 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 06:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 157zPM-0008mV-00; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:01:04 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f57D14P42319; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:01:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:01:03 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010607140103.A42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606190842.0534b2b0@localhost> <20010606195510N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010607134347.A41764@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010607055051K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010607055051K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:50:51AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Well, the FreeBSD project owns its servers (they're all at Yahoo!) and Does this mean the world's busiest ftp site will live on? I remember the announcement you (jkh) made, but i haven't heard if it's ascended to its previous glory. It's in europe now, right? Or is that just the ftp site, with the source servers on yahoo somewhere in the states? What if yahoo goes under? I vote that the FreeBSD server be plastered into a wall somewhere, like that Novell server. :) | I think the percentage of "top developers" who work for any | corporation matching that description are low enough and stubborn | enough that I don't see how "massive ungoodness" could happen. 'Low enough' in what sense? | walk out in the face of massive pointy-hairedness since all the "top | developers" know they're also massively employable here. Where is 'here' ? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 6:17:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3506D37B406 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 06:16:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f57DDpO94334; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 06:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <20010607140103.A42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010607134347.A41764@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010607055051K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010607140103.A42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010607061351Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 06:13:51 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: j mckitrick Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:01:03 +0100 > Does this mean the world's busiest ftp site will live on? I remember the That's a different server. Yyou're talking about ftp.freesoftware.com now and it has no official connection to the FreeBSD Project at this point. It's not even a current mirror of freebsd.org, though I'm sure it will be again if WindRiver decides to keep it going and the requisite bandwidth can be obtained. We just need to figure out some way of sustaining the costs without it being stupid. ftp.freebsd.org lives in Denmark now and is a completely different machine. In time, I strongly suspect that it also won't even be one single machine you can point to but a cluster of them. If Yahoo! should ever start looking shaky, not that I honestly expect that to happen, I'm sure the same will become true for the other relevent *.freebsd.org resources which require additional agility. > 'Low enough' in what sense? Small enough. There are a lot more significant developers in this project than work for any one company. > | walk out in the face of massive pointy-hairedness since all the "top > | developers" know they're also massively employable here. > > Where is 'here' ? California, though that's hardly the only job market for good engineers. I hear things are pretty good in Holland these days too. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 6:35: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C8137B406 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 06:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 157zwA-0009A5-00; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:34:58 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f57DYwj42992; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:34:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:34:57 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010607143457.B42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010607134347.A41764@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010607055051K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010607140103.A42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010607061351Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010607061351Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 06:13:51AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Small enough. There are a lot more significant developers in this | project than work for any one company. Speaking of which, has anyone offered any interesting ideas on how a progressive plan might be developed to address the concerns greg lehey voiced in his daemonnews article? What can be done to more effectively direct the volunteer effort, and who should take the lead in doing so? I apologize if i already missed this discussion. If so, i'm off to the -chat archives.... jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 7:33: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199F037B408 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 07:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 1580qL-000CgS-00; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:33:01 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f57EX0w44347; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:33:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:33:00 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, grog@lemis.com Subject: emacs under x or console? Message-ID: <20010607153300.G42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org question for greg, and other emacs users: i've started using xemacs after reading the evangelism of yourself (grog) and others. so far, it's great. do you take the purist view, and run it in console mode so that you use the same keystrokes whether running it locally or remotely? or do you run it in x mode, to take advantage of the 'better' key mappings and extra features, then just 'change mental mode' when you switch to a remote session? for example, using sticky-modifiers and being able to use my 'alt' key is great in xemacs. but in console mode, this does not work as well, and i also have to reach for the esc key, which really cuts down on efficiency. any thoughts? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 9:39:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73A137B403 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f57GbZ132427; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:37:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010607153300.G42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:37:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: j mckitrick Subject: RE: emacs under x or console? Cc: grog@lemis.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Jun-01 j mckitrick wrote: > > question for greg, and other emacs users: > > i've started using xemacs after reading the evangelism of yourself (grog) > and others. so far, it's great. > > do you take the purist view, and run it in console mode so that you use the > same keystrokes whether running it locally or remotely? or do you run it in > x mode, to take advantage of the 'better' key mappings and extra features, > then just 'change mental mode' when you switch to a remote session? > > for example, using sticky-modifiers and being able to use my 'alt' key is > great in xemacs. but in console mode, this does not work as well, and i > also have to reach for the esc key, which really cuts down on efficiency. > > any thoughts? I'm not a purist, but I use xemacs in X. For one thing, it allows you to use the mouse until you learn all the keystroke shortcuts if necessary. Also, I like having the Meta key in X as well. You can configure Alt to act like Meta in the console if you use one of the *emacs* keyboard maps, but when I did that I found it had other unpleasant side effects on the usefulness of the console. Besides, in X you can have several large frames open at the same time, which is nice. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 10:51:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF99B37B401 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:51:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 81D8E18D8; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7046C18D7 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hotmail Email Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Content-Description: Notification Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone else getting bounced emails from Hotmail? Everytime I send something that way it bounces back the first time but works just fine the 2nd time. Ah well... I guess Windows 2000 isn't that great... :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 10:58:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from messiah.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6C737B403 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by messiah.megadeb.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f57I0NY45462 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:00:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:00:23 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail Email Message-ID: <20010607200023.R39309@messiah.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from hamellr@heorot.1nova.com on Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:50:52AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:50:52AM -0700, Rick Hamell wrote: > > Anyone else getting bounced emails from Hotmail? Everytime I send > something that way it bounces back the first time but works just fine the > 2nd time. Ah well... I guess Windows 2000 isn't that great... :) Same thing here. Hotmail has really gone down the toilet. -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 13:49:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD5537B406 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b022.otenet.gr [195.167.121.150]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f57KnOf19072; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:49:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f57ImJ101788; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:48:19 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:48:18 +0300 (EEST) From: Giorgos Keramidas X-X-Sender: To: Robert Clark Cc: Rick Hamell , Michael Lucas , Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <20010606120032.A12215@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: <20010607214537.M1756-100000@hades.hell.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > I have a hard time believing that a foreign government > interested in national defense is going to care at all > about what kind of license an OS is released under. > > [RC] Well, at times, I have heard arguments like: o Windows is created by an American company. o The source is not open, therefore it may be 'hiding' stuff that we do not know and never will find out about. o If they wanted, they could place hooks for remotely controlling our programs. and other things that are more or less paranoid. When you are at war, I guess, everything is important. Especially what software you use to run the whole thing. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 15:39:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc89225.stofanet.dk (pc89225.stofanet.dk [212.10.22.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F71737B405 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@hotpost.dk) Received: by pc89225.stofanet.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9CEC55C5; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 00:39:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 00:39:36 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010608003936.A22138@hotpost.dk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010606120032.A12215@darkstar.gte.net> <20010607214537.M1756-100000@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010607214537.M1756-100000@hades.hell.gr>; from keramidi@otenet.gr on Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 09:48:18PM +0300 From: morten@hotpost.dk (Morten Liebach) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7, Jun, 2001 at 09:48:18PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > > I have a hard time believing that a foreign government > > interested in national defense is going to care at all > > about what kind of license an OS is released under. > > > > [RC] > > Well, at times, I have heard arguments like: > > o Windows is created by an American company. > > o The source is not open, therefore it may be 'hiding' stuff that we do > not know and never will find out about. > > o If they wanted, they could place hooks for remotely controlling our > programs. > > and other things that are more or less paranoid. > > When you are at war, I guess, everything is important. > Especially what software you use to run the whole thing. I read somewhere that the german army has seen the ligth, at asked Siemens to build some OS for their use, as they don't trust Microsoft. In France I think the governement does some mistrust MS too ... so they prefer 'Open Source'[1]. HAND Morten [1]: How they define that I don't know. -- If you don't understand or are scared by any of the above ask your parents or an adult to help you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 18:21:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A5937B403 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A4B866ACBC; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:51:20 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:51:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: emacs under x or console? Message-ID: <20010608105120.N58042@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010607153300.G42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010607153300.G42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 03:33:00PM +0100 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 7 June 2001 at 15:33:00 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > question for greg, and other emacs users: > > i've started using xemacs after reading the evangelism of yourself (grog) > and others. so far, it's great. > > do you take the purist view, and run it in console mode so that you use the > same keystrokes whether running it locally or remotely? or do you run it in > x mode, to take advantage of the 'better' key mappings and extra features, > then just 'change mental mode' when you switch to a remote session? The latter. > for example, using sticky-modifiers and being able to use my 'alt' > key is great in xemacs. but in console mode, this does not work as > well, and i also have to reach for the esc key, which really cuts > down on efficiency. That's not a problem in console mode. You can use an appropriate key map; I use the file at ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/us.emacs.kbd. The real problem with console mode is that the window is so small. I'm writing this on a window 110x100 in size. You can't do anything like that on a character console, and it limits your view of things. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 19: 3:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.solveinteractive.com [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2268037B401 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:03:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: by tsunami.acidpit.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 387191F20; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:03:07 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: emacs under x or console? Message-ID: <20010607220307.A31287@acidpit.org> References: <20010607153300.G42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010608105120.N58042@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010608105120.N58042@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:51:20 +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 08, 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > That's not a problem in console mode. You can use an appropriate key > map; I use the file at ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/us.emacs.kbd Been looking for that, thanks. :) While on the topic of emacs, anyone have a url handy with various tips/tricks/help/etc? I don't use emacs much myself, have the basics down, but would like to see some of the more 'advanced' stuff at work. -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 20:23:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43B637B401; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:23:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 158CsA-000A3I-00; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 04:23:42 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f583NfY61903; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 04:23:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 04:23:41 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: emacs under x or console? Message-ID: <20010608042341.B61773@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010607153300.G42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010608105120.N58042@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010608105120.N58042@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:51:20AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | The real problem with console mode is that the window is so small. | I'm writing this on a window 110x100 in size. You can't do anything | like that on a character console, and it limits your view of things. Interesting. That makes sense to me. I had that debate once with some 'hard core' programmer types (the same ones who told me FreeBSD was old technology) who felt all code should be console friendly, and therefore wrap at 80 columns or less. Also, they felt all coding should be done from console mode because this was the only mode guaranteed to exist on all boxes, especially those with low resources. Needless to say, they weren't emacs fans either. :-) I figure if you have an X display, why not use it? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 20:38:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA31937B401 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:38:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1D0C66ACBC; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:08:33 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:08:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: emacs under x or console? Message-ID: <20010608130833.T58042@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010607153300.G42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010608105120.N58042@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010608042341.B61773@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010608042341.B61773@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:23:41AM +0100 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 8 June 2001 at 4:23:41 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: >> The real problem with console mode is that the window is so small. >> I'm writing this on a window 110x100 in size. You can't do anything >> like that on a character console, and it limits your view of things. > > Interesting. That makes sense to me. I had that debate once with some > 'hard core' programmer types (the same ones who told me FreeBSD was old > technology) who felt all code should be console friendly, and therefore wrap > at 80 columns or less. Also, they felt all coding should be done from > console mode because this was the only mode guaranteed to exist on all > boxes, especially those with low resources. Needless to say, they weren't > emacs fans either. :-) Careful what you say there, that's style(9) flame war fodder :-) > I figure if you have an X display, why not use it? "Because it's bloated and inefficient". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 7 22:39:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C484D37B403 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:39:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A7D32EC00E2; Thu, 07 Jun 2001 22:51:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 22:44:04 -0700 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: My cat crashed my BSD box Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's a new one - this happened the other night. My cat likes to sit on my desk while I'm at my computer, which is fine, most of the time. Though she usually chooses the mouse pad as her favorite place to sit down, or lay down. She'll lay right on top of the mouse, sometimes even across the keypad part of the keyboard. I gave her an unused mouse pad to sit on, but she doesn't like it. So the other night she's laying there on the mouse pad, I get up from the desk and head down stairs to take the garbage out, and I here lots of beeping. You know the kind, the computer just beeps non-stop and very fast. I head back to my computer and see the monitor is all wacked out, horizontal lines flashing up and down like mad. Totally hosed X. I tried ctrl-alt-bkspc, no good, or so I thought, since I couldn't see the text on the screen to tell what is showed. I assumed it was at the prompt and entered, blindly, su and password and reboot, still no good. I didn't want to hit the reset button, but nothing would work. I went over to another bsd box (I have 3 of 'em) and telneted into the messed up one, and was able to reboot it from there, and all was well again. Now the cat is back to laying on the mouse pad, she just pushes the mouse out of the way, or lays right on it, and purrs away. Strange. Just thought I'd share that story, something a bit lighter than the usual tech related stuff. -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 9: 0:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706E237B406 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 663745E001; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:00:55 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? Message-ID: <20010608090055.A16960@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is Microsoft going to challenge them ? If there is a court ruling on this, will it be retro-active ? http://www.cs.sandia.gov/cplant/ http://www.squid-cache.org/ -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 12: 2:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FD937B403 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 12:02:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r5.bfm.org [216.127.220.101]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:06:35 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:02:11 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B1BE69C.FD401663@pitt.edu> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 15:50 04-06-2001 -0400, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >CAD tools, Well..there's VARKON: http://www.varkon.com/ > >But...if the free tools are not ported yet to FreeBSD, what makes you >think the commercial ones will? I doubt there is interest for CAD >tools under FreeBSD :(. Have you considered porting it yourself? Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 12:56:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc89225.stofanet.dk (pc89225.stofanet.dk [212.10.22.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6FA37B401 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@hotpost.dk) Received: by pc89225.stofanet.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F3B833FE; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:56:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:56:30 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Message-ID: <20010608215630.E22138@hotpost.dk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010606120032.A12215@darkstar.gte.net> <20010607214537.M1756-100000@hades.hell.gr> <20010608003936.A22138@hotpost.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010608003936.A22138@hotpost.dk>; from morten@hotpost.dk on Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:39:36AM +0200 From: morten@hotpost.dk (Morten Liebach) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8, Jun, 2001 at 12:39:36AM +0200, Morten Liebach wrote: > > I read somewhere that the german army has seen the ligth, at asked > Siemens to build some OS for their use, as they don't trust Microsoft. > > In France I think the governement does some mistrust MS too ... so they > prefer 'Open Source'[1]. Excuse my really crappy english at that time of the day, I hope you can decipher it anyway. ;-) Bleh! M -- If you don't understand or are scared by any of the above ask your parents or an adult to help you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 13: 2:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C191B37B403 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1699"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4J36RJMHO000X8Y@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:02:01 EST Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:10:12 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B213124.F8AE5D5A@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > ... > > Have you considered porting it yourself? > Yes, but it's GPL'd and not critical for my interests, so I decided to pursue other, more interesting, things. I also considered porting spice-ng, but the new maintainers are so vicious about GPLing it that I decided to collect patches for the old spice. I guessed then, that if someone was really interested in spice-ng he/she would port it. No one has: the old spice and sceptre are good choices and have basicly the same features. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 13:31:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9FAF37B401 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:31:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r5.bfm.org [216.127.220.101]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:35:48 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:31:26 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B213124.F8AE5D5A@pitt.edu> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:10 08-06-2001 -0400, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >> Have you considered porting it yourself? >> >Yes, but it's GPL'd and not critical for my interests, so I decided to >pursue other, more interesting, things. OK, then. BTW, I suspect they may regret GPL-ing it. According to the web site, they have been developing this product for a long time. They have been selling the Windows version for hundreds of dollars. They only released the source code last year for the first time. Given that it is GPLed, anyone is now free to modify it to run under Windows, and give it away. So, by GPL-ing the code, they may have destroyed their source of income. Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 14: 7:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE33737B401 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1864"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4J5GY1A0W000X8Y@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:07:29 EST Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:15:40 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I suspect many companies face the exact same problem: 1) the MS Windows market is the really big market but it is currently controlled my Microsoft and a very small group of companies: there's no space to compete. 2) New company decides to try a very small and especific market and listens to an equally small agroup of would-be costumers asking for a linux port. 3) Linux port is released but the revenue (if at all) doesn't seem very high. 4) A minority group asks for a BSD port which is quickly rejected in light of the Linux results. 5) When wondering about the revenue, new company discovers linux users love opensource. 6) Community (AKA slashdot lusers) promise to pump development into product if it is opensourced under a GPL license. 7) Company decides GPL is sufficiently restricted not to affect windoze market and releases code under GPL. 8) Company fires core developers and hires web administrators to update the project pages in preparation for the horde of opensource programmers about to work for free. 9) The development of the product slows down significantly and the free workers that were expected end up being only testers. 10) Project is forgotten. 11) Project dies slowly (it was a project wasn't it?). Varkon's development greatly slowed down. Remember willows (www.willows.com)? XFS, Mozilla, Staroffice, I see them all going the same way. That might be the reason everytime I see someone compromising with Linux, I say to myself..boy the are desesperate already...a few more years and they will die. My recommendation to stop this deadful chain is to make developers aware that GPLing the product means they will lose their jobs sooner or later. Pedro. "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: ... > > OK, then. BTW, I suspect they may regret GPL-ing it. According > to the web site, they have been developing this product for a > long time. They have been selling the Windows version for hundreds > of dollars. > > They only released the source code last year for the first time. > Given that it is GPLed, anyone is now free to modify it to run > under Windows, and give it away. > > So, by GPL-ing the code, they may have destroyed their source > of income. > > Adam > > --- > http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you > and checks for its existence. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 14:48:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7239137B403 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:48:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 91200 invoked by uid 100); 8 Jun 2001 21:48:09 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15137.18457.765347.530729@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:48:09 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni types: > I suspect many companies face the exact same problem: > > 1) the MS Windows market is the really big market but it is currently > controlled my Microsoft and a very small group of companies: there's > no space to compete. > 2) New company decides to try a very small and especific market and > listens to an equally small agroup of would-be costumers asking for a > linux port. > 3) Linux port is released but the revenue (if at all) doesn't seem > very high. > 4) A minority group asks for a BSD port which is quickly rejected in > light of the Linux results. > 5) When wondering about the revenue, new company discovers linux users > love opensource. > 6) Community (AKA slashdot lusers) promise to pump development into > product if it is opensourced under a GPL license. > 7) Company decides GPL is sufficiently restricted not to affect > windoze market and releases code under GPL. > 8) Company fires core developers and hires web administrators to > update the project pages in preparation for the horde of opensource > programmers about to work for free. The company just did something incredibly stupid, and is going to be punished for it: > 9) The development of the product slows down significantly and the > free workers that were expected end up being only testers. > 10) Project is forgotten. > 11) Project dies slowly (it was a project wasn't it?). > [...] > > My recommendation to stop this deadful chain is to make developers > aware that GPLing the product means they will lose their jobs sooner > or later. People wearing developers hats don't get to make decisions about the financial future of the company, so your recommendation is ineffective. Go to the root of the problem, and convince the people making those decisions that if they don't have developers, they don't have control of the development of the product - which pretty much spells death for the product. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 15: 8:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B8837B405 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:08:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1981"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4J7LFNRY80010DR@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:08:22 EST Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:16:33 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B214EC1.B979899D@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> <15137.18457.765347.530729@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > ... > > People wearing developers hats don't get to make decisions about the > financial future of the company, so your recommendation is > ineffective. Go to the root of the problem, and convince the people > making those decisions that if they don't have developers, they don't > have control of the development of the product - which pretty much > spells death for the product. > Yes my solution is ineffective, although developers have more influence on the decision than you think. Your solution is impossible to implement (MBAs never see the real problems nor do they want to see them) and, on the other hand, the people taking the decisions are actually the ones that deserve to be punished for choosing the GPL in the first place. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 15:32: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E556A37B408 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:32:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 92492 invoked by uid 100); 8 Jun 2001 22:32:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15137.21094.35164.926545@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:32:06 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: <3B214EC1.B979899D@pitt.edu> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> <15137.18457.765347.530729@guru.mired.org> <3B214EC1.B979899D@pitt.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > People wearing developers hats don't get to make decisions about the > > financial future of the company, so your recommendation is > > ineffective. Go to the root of the problem, and convince the people > > making those decisions that if they don't have developers, they don't > > have control of the development of the product - which pretty much > > spells death for the product. > Yes my solution is ineffective, although developers have more > influence on the decision than you think. Your solution is impossible > to implement (MBAs never see the real problems nor do they want to see > them) Could you please make up your mind? If the developers have more influence on MBAs than I think, then my solution isn't impossible to implement. > and, on the other hand, the people taking the decisions are > actually the ones that deserve to be punished Since the MBAs who chose to fire the developers are watching their company go down the drain, the people making the bad decision - to fire the developers - are being punished. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 15:39:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B5E37B403 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:39:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16963; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:38:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010608163202.0482a100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:34:25 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:15 PM 6/8/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >7) Company decides GPL is sufficiently restricted not to affect >windoze market and releases code under GPL. And then, possibly, a variation on the progression you mention: 8) Company is dismayed to discover that the GPLed version for Linux has been ported to Windows and that they're now losing revenue on that platform. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 16: 3:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28CF037B401 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 2177"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4J9J43LWO000WTH@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 19:03:46 EST Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 19:11:57 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Brett Glass Message-id: <3B215BBD.493474A0@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010608163202.0482a100@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:15 PM 6/8/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > >7) Company decides GPL is sufficiently restricted not to affect > >windoze market and releases code under GPL. > > And then, possibly, a variation on the progression you mention: > > 8) Company is dismayed to discover that the GPLed version for > Linux has been ported to Windows and that they're now losing > revenue on that platform. > This is something I have never seen. MBAs tend to think (naively perhaps?) that the Unix version will never be ported to Windows. I can't recall an example of this happening (with a commercial product), it would be a good lesson...MBAs learn by killing companies. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 16:16:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA4137B403 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:16:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 2190"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4J9WA5MEU000X7Q@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 19:14:23 EST Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 19:22:34 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B215E3A.3CA39251@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> <15137.18457.765347.530729@guru.mired.org> <3B214EC1.B979899D@pitt.edu> <15137.21094.35164.926545@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > Pedro F. Giffuni types: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > People wearing developers hats don't get to make decisions about the > > > financial future of the company, so your recommendation is > > > ineffective. Go to the root of the problem, and convince the people > > > making those decisions that if they don't have developers, they don't > > > have control of the development of the product - which pretty much > > > spells death for the product. > > Yes my solution is ineffective, although developers have more > > influence on the decision than you think. Your solution is impossible > > to implement (MBAs never see the real problems nor do they want to see > > them) > > Could you please make up your mind? If the developers have more > influence on MBAs than I think, then my solution isn't impossible to > implement. > My mind is pretty clear thanks :), I took the courses on "how to be an MBA". The problem with your solution is that MBAs focus only on markets and trends, and with this buzz of Opensource it's easy to get blinded. If you ask in a poll you wiil find a high percentage of people that has heard about Linux and few people that actually know what it is (much less use it). MBAs will not try to reinvent the wheel (although they will likely take the credit)...the person taking the decision will cover hi a** by asking the developer what he thinks of this "new wonderful strategy we have". In my solution, the developers will be say...I hope the earnings will be at least as good as in windows, cause we'll practically have to hire twice the people just to get it running". > > and, on the other hand, the people taking the decisions are > > actually the ones that deserve to be punished > > Since the MBAs who chose to fire the developers are watching their > company go down the drain, the people making the bad decision - to > fire the developers - are being punished. > yes. They usually have preferential stock though :(. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 17: 5:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA05F37B406 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:05:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason.anderson@windriver.com) Received: from peale.wrs.com (peale [147.11.36.41]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA03499; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010608092020.02a09410@mail.wrs.com> X-Sender: jasona@mail.wrs.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:34:52 -0700 To: j mckitrick , Jordan Hubbard From: "Jason S. Anderson" Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com In-Reply-To: <20010607143457.B42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010607061351Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010607134347.A41764@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010607055051K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010607140103.A42170@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010607061351Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm a Wind River employee (actually the engineering manager responsible for Wind's FreeBSD development activities), but the comments and opinions below are my own. :) First, the most direct question: What has directly changed as a result of the Wind/BSDi transaction? Ownership of some equipment and contractual relationships, the transfer of some personnel (a small percentage of the total FreeBSD community), and the introduction of a new corporate sponsor. The core concern I am hearing from reading mailing lists and whatnot seems to be whether Wind will help or hinder the project. Personally, I believe that's up to you, me, Jordan, and everybody else at Wind River and in the community to determine. It's not something that either side is going to be able to independently resolve. Wind River wants to find ways to support and enhance FreeBSD and its value chain in a way that delivers returns to its own commercial efforts; the community wants to find ways to leverage Wind's position in various industries to gain visibility and capabilities. These are not mutually exclusive goals, and I'm confident that we'll be able to find some very creative and compelling new ideas on how to make that happen. At 02:34 PM 6/7/01 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: >What can be done to more effectively direct the volunteer effort, and who >should take the lead in doing so? I have some ideas about this, but I haven't been working with FreeBSD for very long so I'm not sure whether or not they are things that would be truly useful. I'm VERY interested in hearing ideas from others on some pragmatic things that Wind could do to support the community, but doing so in a way that doesn't push a corporate message down the throat of the technology. One possible scenario would be for Wind River to provide some common infrastructure and "glue" to make it easier to publicize and coordinate development activities underway in FreeBSD; there may be specific technology areas that Wind has a strong interest in making happen and in those scenarios we could provide more direction and management. Installation and packaging technologies. Web-based development collaboration. Robust test automation and quality assurance capabilities. Anyway, I just thought I'd dip my toe in the waters. You'll all undoubtedly see more of me in the future but we're still internally sorting out some of the integration details so I'm not prepared (yet) to answer many questions. Cheers, -Jason ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Anderson email: jason.anderson@windriver.com Manager, Platforms Operations Programs ph: 510-749-2202 Manager, FreeBSD Engineering fax: 510-749-2010 Wind River cell: 510-708-3588 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 21:57:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C08937B401 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19846; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 22:57:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010608223046.00b6f6e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:31:35 -0600 To: Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? In-Reply-To: <20010608090055.A16960@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:00 AM 6/8/2001, Arun Sharma wrote: >Is Microsoft going to challenge them ? Doubtful. >If there is a court ruling on >this, will it be retro-active ? Probably. If the law says that something has to be in the public domain, than any attempt to apply another license to it is just invalid. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 22:40:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5DE37B401 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 22:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4DC62A5; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 00:40:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 00:40:36 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Brett Glass Cc: Arun Sharma , Subject: Re: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010608223046.00b6f6e0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 8 Jun 2001, Brett Glass wrote: : :Probably. If the law says that something has to be in :the public domain, than any attempt to apply another :license to it is just invalid. The law says no such thing about works produced under contract for the US government. Stuff produced *directly* by the US federal government or its employees is public domain, stuff produced *for* the US government need not be. That's a huge, very important, and widely misunderstood difference. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 8 23:29:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89A937B401 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 23:29:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 542AB5E001; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 23:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 23:29:12 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? Message-ID: <20010608232912.A19629@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010608223046.00b6f6e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@tumbolia.com on Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:40:36AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:40:36AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > > The law says no such thing about works produced under contract for the US > government. Stuff produced *directly* by the US federal government or its > employees is public domain, stuff produced *for* the US government need not > be. That's a huge, very important, and widely misunderstood difference. I'd appreciate any pointers to good reading material on the topic. Specifically, what prevents a researcher from selling the work to Microsoft for a fee ? -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 7:45:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893FA37B41C for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 07:45:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f59EjmU43523 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 02:45:48 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 02:45:47 +1200 (NZST) From: Dan Langille X-Sender: dan@lists.unixathome.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: MTA authentications Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's an interesting situation. Someone, who will not be identifed, has subscribed to one of my mailing lists. Their mail server refuses to accept any mail from my mail server. The log messages produced by the attempts are: Jun 10 02:02:57 lists sendmail[42408]: f583XcY11785: TLS: error: SSL_connect failed=0 (5) Jun 10 02:02:57 lists sendmail[42408]: f583XcY11785: ruleset=tls_server, arg1=SOFTWARE, relay=dan@localhost, reject=403 4.7.0 piskapo@example.org... TLS handshake failed. I've contacted them (via phone, they're not exactly contactable via email) to discuss this with them. The response I got was "our mail server requires authentication". Well, they're not going to be getting a lot of email? How widespread is this strategy? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 8: 0:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16D937B405 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:00:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f59ExwS92753; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 17:59:58 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3B2239E8.2C7201E3@duth.gr> Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:59:52 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MTA authentications References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > Well, they're not going to be getting a lot of email? How > widespread is this strategy? I wish this strategy was more widespread among the hordes of incompetent "Administrators" around the world. There would be significantly less open relays around AND they wouldn't have to worry about getting blackholed or whatever, with all the frustration and humiliation that goes with that (yeah, right). Clearly a win-win situation. Anyway, there is one other strategy that is even more efficient than that, and also contributes to the well being of the environment: switching off their mail exchangers altogether, and assiging alternative duties to said "Administrators" like planting trees, helping old ladies cross the road, if thay can be trusted for such dangerous and difficult tasks, that is. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 9:33:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7180C37B405 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25259; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:33:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609103147.04434da0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 10:33:26 -0600 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? Cc: Arun Sharma , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010608223046.00b6f6e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:40 PM 6/8/2001, David Scheidt wrote: >The law says no such thing about works produced under contract for the US >government. Stuff produced *directly* by the US federal government or its >employees is public domain, stuff produced *for* the US government need not >be. If it's a work for hire, the law considers it to have been produced BY the government. It has all the rights to the work that exist, and is compelled to relinquish them by putting the work in the public domain. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 10:51:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9428637B405 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABC76308; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:51:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:51:24 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Brett Glass Cc: Arun Sharma , Subject: Re: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609103147.04434da0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, Brett Glass wrote: :At 11:40 PM 6/8/2001, David Scheidt wrote: : : :>The law says no such thing about works produced under contract for the US :>government. Stuff produced *directly* by the US federal government or its :>employees is public domain, stuff produced *for* the US government need not :>be. : :If it's a work for hire, the law considers it to have been produced BY :the government. It has all the rights to the work that exist, and is :compelled to relinquish them by putting the work in the public domain. Well, no. 17 USC 105 : Copyright protection under this title is not available for any work of the United States Government, but the United States Government is not precluded from receiving and holding copyrights transferred to it by assignment, bequest, or otherwise. (the Commerce Department produces some standard reference data that is covered by copyright, because another statute says it is.) -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 11: 1:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5CF37B401 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 11:01:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25884; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:01:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609120042.0455ab50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 12:01:25 -0600 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? Cc: Arun Sharma , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609103147.04434da0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:51 AM 6/9/2001, David Scheidt wrote: >Well, no. 17 USC 105 : > >Copyright protection under this title is not available for any work of >the United States Government, but the United States Government is not >precluded from receiving and holding copyrights transferred to it by >assignment, bequest, or otherwise. That's just it. The rights are not assigned. They are the Government's ab initio, because the work was done for hire at the start. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 12: 6:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB86A37B401 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.40]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GEO003R5FQMNF@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E128017F3; Sat, 09 Jun 2001 12:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 12:06:21 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: MTA authentications In-reply-to: ; from dan@langille.org on Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:45:47AM +1200 To: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010609120621.A1123@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:45:47AM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > I've contacted them (via phone, they're not exactly contactable via > email) to discuss this with them. The response I got was "our mail server > requires authentication". Are you sure you've got the TLS stuff setup properly on your end with certificate and all? - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 12:23:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B4B37B403 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:23:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E26EF756B; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7E31D89; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:26:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: David Scheidt Cc: Brett Glass , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, David Scheidt wrote: :On Fri, 8 Jun 2001, Brett Glass wrote: : :: ::Probably. If the law says that something has to be in ::the public domain, than any attempt to apply another ::license to it is just invalid. : :The law says no such thing about works produced under contract for the US :government. Stuff produced *directly* by the US federal government or its :employees is public domain, stuff produced *for* the US government need not :be. That's a huge, very important, and widely misunderstood difference. That depends on how it was paid for. Code developed under contract to the US Govt. is just like code developed under contract to any other customer. If the contract spells out that the code produced belongs to the Fed, guess what, it belongs to them, and unless it's FOUO restricted (pretty much all of it) and/or classified (a fair amount) it's availabe under FOIA. Most code produced for the govt. under contract belongs to them; they're real insistent on that. They also stamp everything FOUO out of habit, keeping it safe from the people who paid for it from getting it by way of FOIA. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 12:24:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7B937B401 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arun@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: from z3 (z3.mirabella.net [192.168.1.2]) by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC8395DFE4; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:24:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Arun Sharma" To: "David Scheidt" , "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:17:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > :If it's a work for hire, the law considers it to have been produced BY > :the government. It has all the rights to the work that exist, and is > :compelled to relinquish them by putting the work in the public domain. > > Well, no. 17 USC 105 : > > Copyright protection under this title is not available for any work of > the United States Government, but the United States Government is not > precluded from receiving and holding copyrights transferred to it by > assignment, bequest, or otherwise. > > (the Commerce Department produces some standard reference data that is > covered by copyright, because another statute says it is.) In this case, www.sandia.gov seems to be a part of the US government. My understanding is that people who worked on this project are US government employees. So their work becomes a work of the government, doesn't it ? How is "work for hire" legally different from "work of the" government ? -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 12:37:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B9337B401 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930D6664A; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:37:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:37:37 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Arun Sharma Cc: Brett Glass , Subject: RE: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, Arun Sharma wrote: :> :If it's a work for hire, the law considers it to have been produced BY :> :the government. It has all the rights to the work that exist, and is :> :compelled to relinquish them by putting the work in the public domain. :> :> Well, no. 17 USC 105 : :> :> Copyright protection under this title is not available for any work of :> the United States Government, but the United States Government is not :> precluded from receiving and holding copyrights transferred to it by :> assignment, bequest, or otherwise. :> :> (the Commerce Department produces some standard reference data that is :> covered by copyright, because another statute says it is.) : :In this case, www.sandia.gov seems to be a part of the US government. My :understanding is that people who worked on this project are US government :employees. So their work becomes a work of the government, doesn't it ? If they're Federal government employees, yes. If they're contractors, it's probably true. : :How is "work for hire" legally different from "work of the" government ? It's not much. But not all work done for the government is work for hire. Quite a bit is standard contract work. The Feds usually acquire the code as part of the contract, though. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 13: 0:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F09D37B40C for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 13:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26836; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:00:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010609135915.04436a50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 14:00:13 -0600 To: David Scheidt , Arun Sharma From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: GPL for govt funded/developed projects ? Cc: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:37 PM 6/9/2001, David Scheidt wrote: >It's not much. But not all work done for the government is work for hire. >Quite a bit is standard contract work. The Feds usually acquire the code as >part of the contract, though. In which case it's a work for hire due to the explicit provisions of the contract. What I'm saying is that the government seems to be ignoring this and allowing the GPL to propagate. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 19:25:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C5B37B401 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 19:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5A2PAU52712; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:25:13 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106100225.f5A2PAU52712@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Alex Zepeda Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:25:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: MTA authentications Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20010609120621.A1123@zippy.mybox.zip> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alex: I wasn't subscribed to chat when I sent out my original post message. But I found your reply in the archives: You wrote: > On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:45:47AM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > > I've contacted them (via phone, they're not exactly contactable via > > email) to discuss this with them. The response I got was "our mail > > server requires authentication". > > Are you sure you've got the TLS stuff setup properly on your end with > certificate and all? To my knowledge, there is not TLS stuff on my mailserver. I've never heard of TLS before this incident. It's all news to me. Is it unreasonable of them to expect everyone else (i.e. me) to be set up like that? I guess my point is this: if they expect the rest of the world to be "TLS- enabled" (forgive my terminology, I don't know what else to call it), and communicate only with such mail servers, how big is their universe? I thought the [defacto] mail standard was smtp. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 19:59: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB75D37B401 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 19:59:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.109]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0GEP00KES1M95G@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 19:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0BBB618C0; Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:58:55 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: MTA authentications In-reply-to: <200106100225.f5A2PAU52712@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 10:25:09PM -0400 To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010609195855.A2662@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <20010609120621.A1123@zippy.mybox.zip> <200106100225.f5A2PAU52712@lists.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 10:25:09PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > To my knowledge, there is not TLS stuff on my mailserver. I've never > heard of TLS before this incident. It's all news to me. Ahh. TLS is the "next generation" of SSL (a.k.a. SSL 3.1). > Is it unreasonable of them to expect everyone else (i.e. me) to be set up > like that? Yes. It's wishful thinking for now, unfortunately. > I guess my point is this: if they expect the rest of the world to be "TLS- > enabled" (forgive my terminology, I don't know what else to call it), and > communicate only with such mail servers, how big is their universe? I > thought the [defacto] mail standard was smtp. Likely not very large. However, that's no reason to shy away from it. TLS is not a mail protocol, rather an encryption one. FWIW, I'd suggest that you set up sendmail or whatever MTA you choose to use or be able to use TLS. Postfix at least requires use of a certificate, and while you can generate your own, it might be worth buying one from a reputable certification agency (if you don't already have one) such as VeriSign so that your credentials can be verified. I guess a certificate could be used as authentication. However, the more common method involves SASL (RFC2222 IIRC). Sendmail supports this too. For incoming mail, I see authentication as being stupid and encryption as being common sense. Without knowing too much about sendmail, it appears as if sendmail has SSL/TLS support enabled (a la the awful hack that is OpenSSL), but you need to point your copy of sendmail at a valid certificate. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 20:37:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14F4E37B408 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5A3ZlU53690; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:35:48 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106100335.f5A3ZlU53690@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Alex Zepeda Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:35:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: MTA authentications Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: <200106100225.f5A2PAU52712@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 10:25:09PM -0400 In-reply-to: <20010609195855.A2662@zippy.mybox.zip> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Jun 2001, at 19:58, Alex Zepeda wrote: > For incoming mail, I see > authentication as being stupid and encryption as being common sense. I'd rather have the encryption at the message level (i.e. PGP) rather than at the MTA level. > Without knowing too much about sendmail, it appears as if sendmail has > SSL/TLS support enabled (a la the awful hack that is OpenSSL), but you > need to point your copy of sendmail at a valid certificate. AFAIK, the only mail server expecting SSL/TLS support is the person I'm sending mail to. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 9 20:45:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D7137B407 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5A3hjU53739; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:43:46 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106100343.f5A3hjU53739@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Alex Zepeda Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:43:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: MTA authentications Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: <200106100225.f5A2PAU52712@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 10:25:09PM -0400 In-reply-to: <20010609195855.A2662@zippy.mybox.zip> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Jun 2001, at 19:58, Alex Zepeda wrote: > Without knowing too much about sendmail, it appears as if sendmail has > SSL/TLS support enabled (a la the awful hack that is OpenSSL), but you > need to point your copy of sendmail at a valid certificate. I also meant to say that it appears that this new "standard" is not backwards compatible. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message