From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 1:30:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from void.xpert.com (xpert.com [199.203.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0FD37B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserv.xpert.com ([199.203.132.135]) by void.xpert.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15xmGk-0006gp-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:30:14 +0200 Received: by mailserv.xpert.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <472JNKQ0>; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:30:43 +0200 Message-ID: From: Yonatan Bokovza To: 'Greg Lehey' , Brett Glass Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:30:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@FreeBSD.org] > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 04:14 > To: Brett Glass > Cc: Stephen McKay; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was > Re: helping victims of terror))) > > On Tuesday, 23 October 2001 at 20:08:38 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 06:04 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> Are there laws in place which define when this right applies, and > >> what "deadly force" means? > > > > In every democracy of which I am aware. > > In the democracies of which I'm aware, there is a due course of > justice. It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at other country's civilians. > >> Does "attempting to apprehend criminals" include driving tanks into > >> towns and firing at random? > > > > No. And the Israelis are not doing that. > > It looks very much like it to me. What am I missing? You're missing the long debates on every action, the lists of hundreds of known terrorists Israel asked the Palestinian Authority to "apprehend", the real number of those that actually were arrested and released a few days later. You're also missing the fact that the Israelis shoot as a last measure, after peace talks yielded zilch, and that the tanks are there because the Palestinians are shooting, nightly, at civilian neighbourhood called "Giloh". No, it's not a "settlement". It's a neighborhood in Jerusalem, which is the capital city of Israel. How would you react if other country was *nightly* shooting at civilians in D.C. ? Judging by the force used in Afghanistan, tanks would be the light weapons in use... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 7:44: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAF637B405; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09939; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:43:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028084141.04a5ef00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:43:31 -0600 To: Yonatan Bokovza , "'Greg Lehey'" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:30 AM 10/28/2001, Yonatan Bokovza wrote: >In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". >A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at >other country's civilians. No. In war, one country shoots at another's SOLDIERS. In a civilized world, it is considered an atrocity to attack civilians. Which is what terrorists do. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 8:24:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from void.xpert.com (xpert.com [199.203.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D15B37B405; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserv.xpert.com ([199.203.132.135]) by void.xpert.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15xsib-0007Hu-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:23:25 +0200 Received: by mailserv.xpert.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <472JNLJM>; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:23:55 +0200 Message-ID: From: Yonatan Bokovza To: 'Brett Glass' , Yonatan Bokovza , 'Greg Lehey' Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:23:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org] > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 16:44 > To: Yonatan Bokovza; 'Greg Lehey' > Cc: Stephen McKay; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was > Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) > > > At 03:30 AM 10/28/2001, Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > > >In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". > >A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at > >other country's civilians. > > No. In war, one country shoots at another's SOLDIERS. In a civilized > world, it is considered an atrocity to attack civilians. Which is > what terrorists do. In 1991 there was a war called "The Gulf war". During this war the Iraqis launched ICBMs at Israeli civilians. I don't know if you call what's going on now in Afghanistan "a war", but civilians _are_ getting hit in this process. I understand what you say, my point is (which I seem to fail to pass to guys like Greg) there's a difference between "shoot" and "target". And the difference is that "Target" is the intention (kill terrorists, for example) and "Shoot" is more like, the result (kill civilians, for example). One difference between Terrorism and Military-operation, is that Terrorism sometimes "Targets", thus "Shoot", civilians. While Military-operation (in this day and age) "Targets" the enemy, civilians might get shot accidentally, but that's not the desired result. Was I clearer this time? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 8:30:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C9637B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10226; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:30:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028092854.04a58190@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:30:37 -0600 To: Yonatan Bokovza , "'Greg Lehey'" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:23 AM 10/28/2001, Yonatan Bokovza wrote: >In 1991 there was a war called "The Gulf war". During this war >the Iraqis launched ICBMs at Israeli civilians. And this is what is now called a "war crime." But then, it has been well established that Saddam is a terrorist. >I understand what you say, my point is (which I seem to fail to >pass to guys like Greg) there's a difference between "shoot" and >"target". And the difference is that "Target" is the intention (kill >terrorists, for example) and "Shoot" is more like, the result >(kill civilians, for example). One difference between Terrorism >and Military-operation, is that Terrorism sometimes "Targets", >thus "Shoot", civilians. While Military-operation (in this day and >age) "Targets" the enemy, civilians might get shot accidentally, >but that's not the desired result. >Was I clearer this time? Yes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 9:41:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cornflake.nickelkid.com (cornflake.nickelkid.com [216.116.135.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED3137B406 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by cornflake.nickelkid.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA85454; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:41:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:41:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: offtopic: c questions In-Reply-To: <3BDB0680.E8714908@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > It is a corruption of whether you put "the big end in to > the pipe first, or the little end in", combined with a > joke on the English similarity in pronunciation between > the word pair "end in" and the word "Indian" -- hence the > use of the "a" in the contration: "endian" instead of > "endin". I always figured it was just turning a noun into an adjective by slapping an "-ian" onto the noun, so that computing architectures that use the "big end" ordering are "bigendian." Other examples of the word construction are "reptilian" (from "reptile") and "Jeffersonian" (from "Jefferson"). Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 10:22:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net (raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627EA37B408; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.128.59.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.128.59] helo=mindspring.com) by raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15xuZe-00062h-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:22:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDC4D0B.C29A8F4@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:23:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yonatan Bokovza Cc: 'Greg Lehey' , Brett Glass , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". > A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at > other country's civilians. Minor correction: "military", not "civilians". If you shoot at civilians, you're a terrorist. - Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 11:49:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BAAD37B406 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f9SJnLc20637 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:49:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:49:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) In-Reply-To: <3BDC4D0B.C29A8F4@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > > In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". > > A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at > > other country's civilians. > > Minor correction: "military", not "civilians". If you shoot at > civilians, you're a terrorist. The US engages targets that support the enemy's industrial complex to reduce that nations war making ability. The US does so knowing that these industrial targets are staffed by civilians. In this case, the US intentionally targets civilians. Moreover, when the US hit Japan with nuclear weapons, the US indiscriminately killed many civilians without specifically targeting industry. Shall we then call the US armed forces terrorists? If we do, then all of the population are terrorists because the US military does not even shine its boots without orders from civilians. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Jason Wells, ESQ, BSME, Terrorist. One of the great fallacies of modern propoganda is that there is no war. There are crimes against humanity and terrorism. We do not call anyone "the enemy." For factions to shoot each other is termed merely "hostilities." But to declare war is an unacceptable "act of aggression." Another fallacy is that all ways of life and all ideologies are equally good. That no one way is better than another. Nobody wants to believe that evil things transpire in the world. So we get what we have in modernity. Death and violence with no conclusion. With no conclusion and no stated military objective, whomever is called a terrorist is subjective to the whims of propogandizers. Nothing called be called true. No action can be called justified because no one does evil. I hope that the US has woke up from the relativist mindset. I would hope that we all would say, these people who have attacked us are not justified. At first blush it appears that we have taken a stand. Then I see the annointed asking of we are any better than the enemy when reports of innocent (whatever that means) civilians are killed are heard. People speaking from comfort say we had it coming for our policies. I fear that there will never be a conclusion to this mess. Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 11:58:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id DEC3737B408; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:58:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:58:41 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Fabio Miranda Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: offtopic: c questions Message-ID: <20011028115841.A8117@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011027181836.26603.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011027181836.26603.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com>; from fmirand@yahoo.com on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:18:36AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 1. I would like to understand network byte ordering > concepts. I know some machines are "little endian" and > "big endian", and tcpip provides a standard called > network ordering throught htonl, htons,etc fuctions. > I want to know How does look like bigendians and > network byte ordering?, how can i know if i am in a > little or bigendian host? It should not matter. Simply call hton* before putting data on the network, and call ntoh* after pulling data off the network. These functions will take care of the details for you. If you are simply interested in this information, you could run these functions on some place holder values and examine the results. > 2. I am student of computer science, but at my > university noone use freebsd or code bsd socket, so, > i am doing this by my own, but it's hard, i read > commer book about tcpip, but, i dont understand the > concepts, i have printed almost all freebsd man > related to sockets. I would like to know what way did > you guy follow to understand tpcip understand unix?, i > dont have money to buy a book at amazon, but, is that > the only way? can't i understand unix tcpip > programming with free resources? "Unix Network Programming" by W R Stevens comes as very recommended. If you're just looking for something cheap and quick, you may want to take a look at http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~beej/guide/net/ , but this guide is of no comparison to a real book. Also, the guide relies on certain broken aspects of linux header files, but with grep(1) in hand you should be able to work around that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 12: 9:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id BF3A837B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:09:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:09:15 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Jasper O'Malley Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: offtopic: c questions Message-ID: <20011028120915.B8117@FreeBSD.org> References: <3BDB0680.E8714908@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jooji@nickelkid.com on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 12:41:31PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I always figured it was just turning a noun into an adjective by slapping > an "-ian" onto the noun, so that computing architectures that use the "big > end" ordering are "bigendian." Other examples of the word construction are > "reptilian" (from "reptile") and "Jeffersonian" (from "Jefferson"). Apparently it stems from Jonathon Swift's "Gulliver's Travels", a story in which two groups of people are at war with each other because of the way they prefer to eat eggs[1]. One group, the Big Endians, prefers to eat the larger end of the egg first, while the Little Endians of course do the opposite. [1] See also "bikeshed" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 14: 0:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDE2C37B407 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17193 invoked by uid 100); 28 Oct 2001 22:00:31 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15324.32766.960618.330832@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:00:30 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) In-Reply-To: References: <3BDC4D0B.C29A8F4@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells types: > Moreover, when the US hit Japan with nuclear weapons, the US > indiscriminately killed many civilians without specifically targeting > industry. You think the US would use the two most expensive weapons anyone had developed up to that time "indiscriminately"? Of course the targets were of a military nature. Further, both cities benefited from being exempt from conventional bombing so the effects of the A-bombs could be studied. So did the other two possible targets, Kokura Arsenal and Niigata. Kyoto was initially chosen as a valid military target, then exempted from actually being used because of it's religious and historical significance to the Japanese, but left on the list of cities not to be bombed. > Shall we then call the US armed forces terrorists? No. You live in a declared war zone at your own risk. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 14: 9:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07D037B403 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931D5BD07; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA32062; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:09:48 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9SM8fr49767; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:08:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Fabio Miranda Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: offtopic: c questions References: <20011027181836.26603.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 28 Oct 2001 14:08:40 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011027181836.26603.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37d737h0yf.737@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fabio Miranda writes: > hi, I am freebsd user, i want to know: > 1. I would like to understand network byte ordering > concepts. I know some machines are "little endian" and > "big endian", and tcpip provides a standard called > network ordering throught htonl, htons,etc fuctions. > I want to know How does look like bigendians and > network byte ordering?, how can i know if i am in a > little or bigendian host? These terms refer to "byte ordering" in systems which allow addressing of the individual "bytes" of a larger "word" which is interpreted as an integer. In "big endian" systems, the bytes which have the word's biggest-power-of-two bits have lower addresses; i.e., the big end of the word comes first in memory. Roughly speaking, Intel and DEC (x86,PDP,VAX,Alpha(?)) are little endian and others are big endian. The command "uname -m" should give you a clue. "Bit ordering" has to do with the number of the bits within bytes and words; roughly speaking, left-to-right or right-to-left and I'll have to refer you to the documentation of the CPUs or I/O devices involved as I don't know who uses what conventions. AFAIK, the "endian" terms are never used in regard to bit ordering. > dont have money to buy a book at amazon, but, is that > the only way? can't i understand unix tcpip > programming with free resources? There's lots of stuff on the web if you've the time to hunt it down. Most of it is probably Linux-centric, but it should be helpful anyway. Then there's discount (last year's books) and used books stores which work fine for old subjects like this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 16:25:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B79237B406 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF15BCAA; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16762; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:25:32 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9T0OPr49784; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028084141.04a5ef00@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 28 Oct 2001 16:24:24 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028084141.04a5ef00@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 54 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > In a civilized world, it is considered an atrocity to attack civilians. Then I'd hope to never see a civilized world, because that is ill- considered, like much of what Globalist Thinkers have come up with so far. Whether an action is atrocious doesn't depend upon some rules that some bleeding-heart dreamers have managed to get countries to insincerely sign up to. It depends as much upon the (good?) purposes of the action as upon the (bad?) effects of the action (and not at all upon the action itself, of course). The purposes include the not only the immediate goal (eg, ensuring survival; avoiding slavery; avoiding harm to many of one's own civilians OR soldiers) but also the necessity of the action (eg, there is no alternative that will achieve the purpose). It also includes consideration of the "goodness" of the acting country and the "badness" of the acted-upon country. When a good country with some bad citizens is attacked by a bad country with some good citizens, and the good country must resort to attacking the bad country's good civilians in order to survive, or even just to protect itself in some cases, then that should be considered an honorable action, even a duty, and not an atrocity. Of course, we could argue about "must", "survive", "goodness", "badness", and related matters for as long as people will argue about the first use of atomic weapons. Taking this a different direction, I'll note that there was a time when it was more widely considered that an attack on civilians was only atrocious for the first country to do it. You played by the rules, but when some someone broke the rules, the rules changed. The rules you play by don't make your actions atrocious (unless maybe you choose to live by some "higher" rules such as those handed down by your Giver-Of- Decrees or John Lennon or something). What makes an action atrocious depends much upon the history of what lead up to the action, such as who was the first to resort to (physical) force, who's being the bully (physically or otherwise), etc. While the above arguments have been used to justify many true atrocities, I think it is possible and good to put hard-to-consider limits on all of the fuzzy concepts (eg, "must") to limit such actions with bad effects on individuals. For instance, it is almost never a clear necessity for national survival that some POW be horribly tortured and even if it had helpful short-term effects, there are other effects to consider, such as greatly increasing the probability that your citizens with be tortured in return. Many rules are established and followed for no other reason than to avoid bad things happening to us, not the other fellow. (Compare the rules for harming Apes vs. harming Humans.) When the other fellow does the bad thing to us, the reason for the rule vanishes. A bumper sticker once seen: Visualize Whirled Peas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 16:31:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A1C37B401 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f9T0V3620899 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:31:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:31:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) In-Reply-To: <15324.32766.960618.330832@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > Jason C. Wells types: > > Moreover, when the US hit Japan with nuclear weapons, the US > > indiscriminately killed many civilians without specifically targeting > > industry. > > You think the US would use the two most expensive weapons anyone had > developed up to that time "indiscriminately"? Of course the targets > were of a military nature. The cities were perhaps chosen carefully. The civilians were killed indescriminately. At any rate, you help make my point. My point was not to comment on the rightness or wrongness of our attack. My point was that causing the death of civilians is a dubious criteria for designating who is a terrorist. I would say that a terrorist is a party who explicitly engages in a deadly attack on a party not directly material to a particular conflict. In recent events, Al Qaeda engaged in an attack on the WTC partly as a result of Al Qaeda's disdain for the presence of US military forces in Saudi Arabia. Al Qaeda did not attack Saudi Arabia, nor the US military stationed there. Both of these parties are more directly material to the conflict Al Qaeda perceives. Al Qaeda attempted to effect its own non-governmental policy on the US and Saudi Arabia by a proxy attack on the WTC. Therefore Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization. The US is now in direct conflict with Al Qaeda as a result of the WTC attack. The US stated objective is to destroy the Al Qaeda organization whom the US is directly in conflict with. The nation of Afghanistan is providing support to Al Qaeda. Afghanistan then becomes a directly involved party in the conflict by virtue of its political and military support of Al Qaeda. The US is not a terrorist organization because it is engaging parties that are explicitly involved in this particular conflict. The US does not desire to cause the death of civilians in Afghanistan. However, doing so does not make the US terrorists. The same goes for the Japan example. Causing the death of so called innocent civilians should not be the prime criteria for designating who is a terrorist. If it is, then by that definition the US is also guilty of terrorism. Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 19:13:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056F737B406 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.135.21.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.135.21] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15y2rQ-0007iW-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:13:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDCC97B.43329BD3@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:14:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helpingvictims of terror))) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > Minor correction: "military", not "civilians". If you shoot at > > civilians, you're a terrorist. > > The US engages targets that support the enemy's industrial complex to > reduce that nations war making ability. The US does so knowing that these > industrial targets are staffed by civilians. In this case, the US > intentionally targets civilians. In all such cases, we have announced our intentions; if they are civilians, then they have the choice to not staff the facility while we are bombing it. If they have no choice, then I would suggest that they have been pressed into military service. > Moreover, when the US hit Japan with nuclear weapons, the US > indiscriminately killed many civilians without specifically targeting > industry. We announced the hell out of it. We intended that they evacuate the cities, and that the damage be structural only. > Shall we then call the US armed forces terrorists? If we do, > then all of the population are terrorists because the US military > does not even shine its boots without orders from civilians. > Allow me to introduce myself. I am Jason Wells, ESQ, BSME, Terrorist. Funny, they fail to follow my orders; maybe it's just the way I phrase them... > One of the great fallacies of modern propoganda is that there is no war. > There are crimes against humanity and terrorism. We do not call anyone > "the enemy." For factions to shoot each other is termed merely > "hostilities." But to declare war is an unacceptable "act of aggression." > > Another fallacy is that all ways of life and all ideologies are equally > good. That no one way is better than another. Nobody wants to believe > that evil things transpire in the world. > > So we get what we have in modernity. Death and violence with no > conclusion. With no conclusion and no stated military objective, whomever > is called a terrorist is subjective to the whims of propogandizers. > Nothing called be called true. No action can be called justified because > no one does evil. > > I hope that the US has woke up from the relativist mindset. I would hope > that we all would say, these people who have attacked us are not > justified. At first blush it appears that we have taken a stand. I don't believe in moral relativism, and never have. There is a common modern Western philosophy that permits the belief that by virtue of somone holding an idea, that the idea therefore has merit. I don't believe this: I've heard many incredibly stupid ideas that contradict evidence obtained from reproducible experiments, and Occam's Razor makes it impossible to give these ideas the same argumentative weight as ideas which do not have the property of contradicting such evidence. I think Star Trek's "Scotty" was probably on to something... > Then I see the annointed asking of we are any better than the enemy when > reports of innocent (whatever that means) civilians are killed are heard. Civilians are, by definition, non-combatants. Personally, I don't care if they are "innocent" or not: they are still non-combatants. Innocence can never be judged: only guilt or lack of guilt: that's why, in criminal trials, we find people to be "not guilty", rather than finding them to be "innocent". > People speaking from comfort say we had it coming for our policies. I > fear that there will never be a conclusion to this mess. Hopefully, the people you speak of will not push the issue, or they will find out what "total war" means. Students of history will tell you that the Romans not only defeated their enemies, they plowed salt into their fields so that they could never sustain a population large enough to engage in warfare against the Romans, ever again. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 19:16:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B4337B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.135.21.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.135.21] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15y2uL-0002UB-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:16:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDCCA30.14BF82C2@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:17:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Melville Cc: Jasper O'Malley , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: offtopic: c questions References: <3BDB0680.E8714908@mindspring.com> <20011028120915.B8117@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Melville wrote: > > > I always figured it was just turning a noun into an adjective by slapping > > an "-ian" onto the noun, so that computing architectures that use the "big > > end" ordering are "bigendian." Other examples of the word construction are > > "reptilian" (from "reptile") and "Jeffersonian" (from "Jefferson"). > > Apparently it stems from Jonathon Swift's "Gulliver's Travels", a story in > which two groups of people are at war with each other because of the way > they prefer to eat eggs[1]. One group, the Big Endians, prefers to eat > the larger end of the egg first, while the Little Endians of course do the > opposite. > > [1] See also "bikeshed" Hence the joke... the derivation was from "Indian". See also "Laputa". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 19:28:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A3C37B403 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.135.21.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.135.21] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15y36L-0007eH-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:28:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDCCD18.28BFF73C@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:29:28 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028084141.04a5ef00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > In a civilized world, it is considered an atrocity to attack civilians. > > Then I'd hope to never see a civilized world, because that is ill- > considered, like much of what Globalist Thinkers have come up with so far. The reasoning behind such "globalist thinking" as the Geneva Convention was to ensure species survival in the face of weapons of mass destruction. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 19:45:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1D537B401 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D6B79786E3; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:15:49 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:15:49 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Yonatan Bokovza Cc: Brett Glass , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Message-ID: <20011029141549.K62434@monorchid.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Yonatan@xpert.com on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 11:30:40AM +0200 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 28 October 2001 at 11:30:40 +0200, Yonatan Bokovza wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@FreeBSD.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 04:14 >> To: Brett Glass >> Cc: Stephen McKay; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >> Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was >> Re: helping victims of terror))) >> >> On Tuesday, 23 October 2001 at 20:08:38 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>> At 06:04 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> >>>> Are there laws in place which define when this right applies, and >>>> what "deadly force" means? >>> >>> In every democracy of which I am aware. >> >> In the democracies of which I'm aware, there is a due course of >> justice. It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. > > In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". > A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at > other country's civilians. We've already established that war is carried out at a government level. >>>> Does "attempting to apprehend criminals" include driving tanks into >>>> towns and firing at random? >>> >>> No. And the Israelis are not doing that. >> >> It looks very much like it to me. What am I missing? > > You're missing the long debates on every action, the lists of > hundreds of known terrorists Israel asked the Palestinian Authority > to "apprehend", the real number of those that actually were > arrested and released a few days later. Yes, indeed, that's what I'm missing. If this is happening, the world press is keeping very quiet about it. > You're also missing the fact that the Israelis shoot as a last > measure, after peace talks yielded zilch, Hmm. There was a certain amount of provocation, wasn't there? > and that the tanks are there because the Palestinians are shooting, > nightly, at civilian neighbourhood called "Giloh". No, it's not a > "settlement". It's a neighborhood in Jerusalem, which is the capital > city of Israel. How would you react if other country was *nightly* > shooting at civilians in D.C. ? I suppose it's a question of "other country". If it's another country, then the Israelis shouldn't be shooting in Palestine. If it's the same country then yes, I believe there *are* (roughly) nightly shootings in (Washington) D.C., but since they're mainly poor people, the police doesn't do much about it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 19:48:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6B037B401 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:48:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C7D2D786DE; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:18:20 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:18:20 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Yonatan Bokovza , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Message-ID: <20011029141820.L62434@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028084141.04a5ef00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028084141.04a5ef00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:43:31AM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 28 October 2001 at 8:43:31 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:30 AM 10/28/2001, Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > >> In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". >> A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at >> other country's civilians. > > No. In war, one country shoots at another's SOLDIERS. In a civilized > world, it is considered an atrocity to attack civilians. Which is > what terrorists do. Precisely. Now tell me, who are the Israelis shooting in Palestine? I think I should point out that I'm targetting the Israelis here because they should know better, and that answering violence with more violence doesn't work. In fact, I'm more sympathetic to the Israaeli cause than I am to the Palestinian cause. I know that the Palestinians started it. But this isn't the way to get people to stop if they're prepared to die for their cause. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 20:18:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD82837B401; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:18:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.135.21.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.135.21] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15y3sz-0001ld-00; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:18:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDCD8DE.C7D0B736@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:19:42 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , Yonatan Bokovza , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028084141.04a5ef00@localhost> <20011029141820.L62434@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > >> In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". > >> A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at > >> other country's civilians. > > > > No. In war, one country shoots at another's SOLDIERS. In a civilized > > world, it is considered an atrocity to attack civilians. Which is > > what terrorists do. > > Precisely. Now tell me, who are the Israelis shooting in Palestine? Israeli police are defending themselves with deadly force against both resident aliens and (rarely) Israeli citizens. Whether you should use machine guns against rocks is a completely different question (a rock is a deadly weapon, so while it may be apalling to use a machine gun in response, if a machine gun is what you have in your hand...). > I think I should point out that I'm targetting the Israelis here > because they should know better, and that answering violence with more > violence doesn't work. In fact, I'm more sympathetic to the Israaeli > cause than I am to the Palestinian cause. I know that the > Palestinians started it. But this isn't the way to get people to stop > if they're prepared to die for their cause. Actually, if you eliminate _all_ of your enemies in the process, answering violence with more violence works. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 28 21:55:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949B937B403; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a228.otenet.gr [212.205.215.228]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f9T5tkv00788; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:55:46 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9T5VKK21101; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:31:20 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:31:19 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Message-ID: <20011029073119.A21071@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011028084141.04a5ef00@localhost> <20011029141820.L62434@monorchid.lemis.com> <3BDCD8DE.C7D0B736@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3BDCD8DE.C7D0B736@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:19:42PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > I think I should point out that I'm targetting the Israelis here > > because they should know better, and that answering violence with more > > violence doesn't work. In fact, I'm more sympathetic to the Israaeli > > cause than I am to the Palestinian cause. I know that the > > Palestinians started it. But this isn't the way to get people to stop > > if they're prepared to die for their cause. > > Actually, if you eliminate _all_ of your enemies in the > process, answering violence with more violence works. Well, in a similar tangle of thoughts, if a nuclear holocaust does guarantee that all the `enemies' will die, it `works' too. But that does not make it justifiable, by any means. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 0:30:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from void.xpert.com (xpert.com [199.203.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BE837B407; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserv.xpert.com ([199.203.132.135]) by void.xpert.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15y7nN-0008Bm-00; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:29:21 +0200 Received: by mailserv.xpert.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <472JNM23>; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:29:54 +0200 Message-ID: From: Yonatan Bokovza To: 'Greg Lehey' , Yonatan Bokovza Cc: Brett Glass , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:29:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@FreeBSD.org] > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 05:46 > To: Yonatan Bokovza > Cc: Brett Glass; Stephen McKay; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was > Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) > > > On Sunday, 28 October 2001 at 11:30:40 +0200, Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@FreeBSD.org] > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 04:14 > >> To: Brett Glass > >> Cc: Stephen McKay; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > >> Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was > >> Re: helping victims of terror))) > >> > >> On Tuesday, 23 October 2001 at 20:08:38 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >>> At 06:04 PM 10/23/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> > >>>> Are there laws in place which define when this right applies, and > >>>> what "deadly force" means? > >>> > >>> In every democracy of which I am aware. > >> > >> In the democracies of which I'm aware, there is a due course of > >> justice. It doesn't involve invading places and shooting first. > > > > In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". > > A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at > > other country's civilians. > > We've already established that war is carried out at a government > level. > > >>>> Does "attempting to apprehend criminals" include driving > tanks into > >>>> towns and firing at random? > >>> > >>> No. And the Israelis are not doing that. > >> > >> It looks very much like it to me. What am I missing? > > > > You're missing the long debates on every action, the lists of > > hundreds of known terrorists Israel asked the Palestinian Authority > > to "apprehend", the real number of those that actually were > > arrested and released a few days later. > > Yes, indeed, that's what I'm missing. If this is happening, the world > press is keeping very quiet about it. Yeah, Palestinians are "kicking behinds" when it comes to press. "Politically Correct" notion means the weaker is always right. Did you know yesterday two Palestinian Policemen, ordered by Palestinian Intelligence Chief Tawfiq Tirawi, rampaged in a bus stop in Hadera killing 4 civilians and injuring 44. Or that one civilian was gunned down, in his car, from a passing-by Palestinian car that fled into the Palestinian Authority premises. That was yesterday. Today Israel retracts forces from Beit-Lehem and Beit-Jalla, under American pressure. > > You're also missing the fact that the Israelis shoot as a last > > measure, after peace talks yielded zilch, > > Hmm. There was a certain amount of provocation, wasn't there? Yeah. In 1948 the UN declared Israel. I think that was the last straw. Ohh, you mean, like, nowadays. Yeah, we "provoke" them and they "provoke" us... > > and that the tanks are there because the Palestinians are shooting, > > nightly, at civilian neighbourhood called "Giloh". No, it's not a > > "settlement". It's a neighborhood in Jerusalem, which is the capital > > city of Israel. How would you react if other country was *nightly* > > shooting at civilians in D.C. ? > > I suppose it's a question of "other country". If it's another > country, then the Israelis shouldn't be shooting in Palestine. If > it's the same country then yes, I believe there *are* (roughly) > nightly shootings in (Washington) D.C., but since they're mainly poor > people, the police doesn't do much about it. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 0:47:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from void.xpert.com (xpert.com [199.203.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D8137B401; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserv.xpert.com ([199.203.132.135]) by void.xpert.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15y83q-0008EO-00; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:46:22 +0200 Received: by mailserv.xpert.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <472JNMKP>; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:46:52 +0200 Message-ID: From: Yonatan Bokovza To: 'Greg Lehey' , Brett Glass Cc: Yonatan Bokovza , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:46:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@FreeBSD.org] > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 05:48 > To: Brett Glass > Cc: Yonatan Bokovza; Stephen McKay; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was > Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) > > > On Sunday, 28 October 2001 at 8:43:31 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:30 AM 10/28/2001, Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > > > >> In the democracies *I'm* aware of there's something called "war". > >> A good example of this will be when a one country shoots at > >> other country's civilians. > > > > No. In war, one country shoots at another's SOLDIERS. In a civilized > > world, it is considered an atrocity to attack civilians. Which is > > what terrorists do. > > Precisely. Now tell me, who are the Israelis shooting in Palestine? > > I think I should point out that I'm targetting the Israelis here > because they should know better, and that answering violence with more > violence doesn't work. In fact, I'm more sympathetic to the Israaeli Ahhh. No. If we step back from the current debate, militant force was always used to either occupy land or retain Status-Quo. Just take a quick breeze through the history and learn from the Romans, from the Spanish- Mayan war, or the assumption that Hadn't Hitler started a second front in Russia he could've ruled the world. It doesn't solve everything, and it's not a very good permanent solution for almost anything, but the Palestinians (if we get back to our discussion) gained a lot of political benefit via violence (plus wise use of media, but that's another thing). > cause than I am to the Palestinian cause. I know that the > Palestinians started it. But this isn't the way to get people to stop > if they're prepared to die for their cause. Israel is open to suggestions. I'm not being cynic! Since the peace talks failed, I see no way out of the situation we're in, but escalating force. The sad fact is that the Palestinians have more to gain if they continue their terror, and until that changes, they have no reason to negotiate cease-fire. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 0:52:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from void.xpert.com (xpert.com [199.203.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9683B37B407; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserv.xpert.com ([199.203.132.135]) by void.xpert.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15y88z-0008F6-00; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:51:41 +0200 Received: by mailserv.xpert.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <472JNMK9>; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:52:14 +0200 Message-ID: From: Yonatan Bokovza To: 'Giorgos Keramidas' , Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:52:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Giorgos Keramidas [mailto:charon@labs.gr] > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 07:31 > To: Terry Lambert > Cc: Greg Lehey; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was > Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) > > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:19:42PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > I think I should point out that I'm targetting the Israelis here > > > because they should know better, and that answering > violence with more > > > violence doesn't work. In fact, I'm more sympathetic to > the Israaeli > > > cause than I am to the Palestinian cause. I know that the > > > Palestinians started it. But this isn't the way to get > people to stop > > > if they're prepared to die for their cause. > > > > Actually, if you eliminate _all_ of your enemies in the > > process, answering violence with more violence works. > > Well, in a similar tangle of thoughts, if a nuclear holocaust does > guarantee that all the `enemies' will die, it `works' too. But that > does not make it justifiable, by any means. And Now To Something Completely Different: If your belief is that evolution is above all, even the human race, then nuclear holocaust is paradise for mutants. That's a Good Thing - evolution-wise. You see, everything's justifiable with the correct use of some sense, imagination and logic to tie it up. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 2: 0:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FEF137B401 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 02:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.1]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.11.3/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id f9TA0BN68233 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:00:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (udmkioib48mjfi71@niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.41]) by parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (8.11.1/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id f9TA0A203291 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:00:10 +0100 (MET) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (8.11.6/8.11.3) with UUCP id f9TA09g21707 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:00:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from michel@rose.lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: (from michel@localhost) by rose.lpthe.jussieu.fr (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9TA05V01074 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:00:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from michel) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:00:04 +0100 From: Michel Talon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Course of law Message-ID: <20011029110004.A1018@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Minor correction: "military", not "civilians". If you shoot at > civilians, you're a terrorist. What you are saying was true in 18 th century perhaps, but is completely off-topic now. Take the example of World War II. The allies have completely erased whole German cities like Dresden making thousands of civilian casualties, not to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In fact the modern war is conducted mainly against civilians, in the hope it will diminish the military resources. This implies that it is not possible to make a clear cut distinction between war activities and terrorism, except in rethorics. As you surely know, Vietnam war has been won againsts Frenchs and then Americans using "terrorist" methods, followed by full scale war methods. In Algeria, the war has been gained against the Frenchs purely by the use of "terrorist" methods. Or to give an other example, when the Frenchs were occupied by the Germans during World War II, the activities of French resistants were depicted by the Germans as "terrorism". So please, as a computer scientist, try to dismiss arguments who have a completely void real content. In reality all forms of war are evil, and necessarily lead to immoral behavior. -- Michel Talon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 2:28:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.noos.fr (aragon.noos.net [212.198.2.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49A737B405 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 02:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 44672445 invoked by uid 0); 29 Oct 2001 10:28:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO humano9zbqzdag) ([212.198.40.170]) (envelope-sender ) by 212.198.2.75 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Oct 2001 10:28:38 -0000 Message-ID: <002201c16064$796e4370$aa28c6d4@humano9zbqzdag> From: "yvan" To: References: Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:28:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org When you have one Israeli killed you have a full international coverage and when you have 10 Palestinian killed no media talk about and here is why: http://www.rsf.org/uk/html/mo/cplp01/lp01/251001.html You could find more information at their site www.rsf.org "reporter without borders". Israel is applying its daily repression daily and the information does not get to us or rarely does. Just compare the coverage of more than 6 palestinians that got killed last week in one night (this was 1 night!!!) by the army (who also destroyed houses and cars as usual) and compare it the coverage when 1 or 2 Israelis in a full week. No justice no peace. Yvan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 5:55:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from void.xpert.com (xpert.com [199.203.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6753637B403 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 05:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserv.xpert.com ([199.203.132.135]) by void.xpert.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15yCrr-0000Mr-00; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:54:19 +0200 Received: by mailserv.xpert.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <472JNNC7>; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:54:52 +0200 Message-ID: From: Yonatan Bokovza To: 'yvan' , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:54:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: yvan [mailto:niooi@cybercable.fr] > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 12:29 > To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was > Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) > > > When you have one Israeli killed you have a full > international coverage and > when you have 10 Palestinian killed no media talk about and > here is why: > http://www.rsf.org/uk/html/mo/cplp01/lp01/251001.html > > You could find more information at their site www.rsf.org > "reporter without > borders". Israel is applying its daily repression daily and > the information > does not get to us or rarely does. Just compare the coverage > of more than 6 > palestinians that got killed last week in one night (this was > 1 night!!!) > by the army (who also destroyed houses and cars as usual) and > compare it the > coverage when 1 or 2 Israelis in a full week. No justice no peace. Why don't you ask yourself "why did the Israelis did that?". That's beacuse you know the answer, right? "Israelis are evil!". It's very easy to quote news web-sites, here's what one of mine says about the same event: Beit Rima Operation Caps 7-Day IDF Sweep 24 October, 2001 Israeli ground and tank units rounded up more than 40 suspected terrorists in night-and-day operation inside the Palestinian village of Beit Rima, NW of Ramallah, amid fierce house to house battles in which five armed Palestinians died. Most of the captives were released, leaving eleven in Israeli hands, including two members of the four-man hit squad believed to have murdered Israeli Tourism Minister, Rehavam Zeevi a week ago in Jerusalem. The two men, who fired the three shots that felled the minister outside his Hyatt Hotel room, whose identities are known, remain at large in Palestinian territory, the Palestinian Authority refusing to detain them or any other terrorists. In custody are members of the Tanzim-Fatah, Hamas and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestinian, the group that claimed responsibility for the assassination. Against Palestinian resistance, Israeli troops also carried out a similar house-to-house sweep of known Hamas and Jihad Islami activists in villages around Tulkarm. Three Palestinian combatants were killed in the exchanges. IDF bulldozers knocked down the home of Raad Karmi, commander of the Tanzim military wing in the region, who is wanted for the murder of five Israelis, including two Tel Aviv restaurateurs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 9:10: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8181537B405; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.136.208.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.136.208] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yFv6-0006Fy-00; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:09:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDD8D92.64125B30@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:10:42 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yonatan Bokovza Cc: 'Giorgos Keramidas' , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > And Now To Something Completely Different: If your belief is that > evolution is above all, even the human race, then nuclear > holocaust is paradise for mutants. That's a Good Thing - > evolution-wise. > You see, everything's justifiable with the correct use of some > sense, imagination and logic to tie it up. "I think our descendents will look back at this whole ``nuclear'' thing, and laugh their feelers off." -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 9:33:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A0737B436 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.136.208.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.136.208] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yGI7-0006hc-00; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:33:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDD9326.63937440@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:34:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: yvan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) References: <002201c16064$796e4370$aa28c6d4@humano9zbqzdag> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yvan wrote: > When you have one Israeli killed you have a full international coverage and > when you have 10 Palestinian killed no media talk about and here is why: > http://www.rsf.org/uk/html/mo/cplp01/lp01/251001.html Most reports of dead Palestinians or dead Israelis as seen in the U.S. are reports via telephone, accompanied with a still photograph of the reporter making the report. When that's lacking, they show some file footage of soldiers milling around in a devastated street scene (Palestinian attack on Israelis), or some file footage of a night shot of missle and/or tracer fire (Israeli attack/reprisals on Palestinians; which depends on the political leanings of the reporter). When all else fails, they show a still computer graphic of a flag with a couple of missles in front of it, while the talking head (news anchor) reads a script written by someone less photogenic from an email from the field. Personally, I don't understand why the U.S. public should care more about dead Palestinians (or dead Israelis, for that matter) than about people who die in other countries, under other circumstances and regimes. I personally find Cambodia to be much more interesting than the West Bank of Jerusalem, and occasionally wonder whether the people in Ethiopia are still starving to death and eating all vegetation (resulting in additional desertification of the area, making things worse) because their government is selling the relief supplies to the neighboring countries in order to buy military equipment to oppress their people further. The only justification I can see for either Palestinian or Israeli deaths appearing in U.S. news is an attempt at them controlling U.S. public opinion, or at forcing U.S. involvement through control of a grass roots push for the U.S. government to "do something to save them!". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 12:12:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F8F37B401; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29107; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9TKCIp00904; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:12:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15325.47137.886703.730360@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:12:17 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BDC3E88.D684676F@mindspring.com> References: <43093.1004217988@winston.freebsd.org> <3BDC3E88.D684676F@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved to -chat, and reduced Cc list somewhat ] > > > type-checking than C, (but before anybody suggest it: "...but without all > > > the excess luggage and emotional hangups of C++") > > > > Even implying that C++ simply has emotional hangups is like saying > > that Jeffrey Dahmer merely had an eating disorder. :) > > > > That language is nothing less than a distillation of raw evil. > > Any tool looks evil if it is used incorrectly. Any tool that requires you to go through the gyrations that C++ requires in order to accomplish simple things is evil. ;) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 13:44: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3706F37B401 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 72269 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2001 21:44:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Oct 2001 21:44:01 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15325.47137.886703.730360@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard , tlambert2@mindspring.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Oct-01 Nate Williams wrote: > [ Moved to -chat, and reduced Cc list somewhat ] > >> > > type-checking than C, (but before anybody suggest it: "...but without >> > > all >> > > the excess luggage and emotional hangups of C++") >> > >> > Even implying that C++ simply has emotional hangups is like saying >> > that Jeffrey Dahmer merely had an eating disorder. :) >> > >> > That language is nothing less than a distillation of raw evil. >> >> Any tool looks evil if it is used incorrectly. > > Any tool that requires you to go through the gyrations that C++ requires > in order to accomplish simple things is evil. ;) My personal peeve with C++ is that is a growth on teh side of C (although at this point it's larger than C..) I prefer the way Java lays out code (functions defined within the class, etc.). Unfortunately, the implemenetations of Java running around aren't the speediest unless you are running !FreeBSD. :-/ Granted, speed isn't needed for all things. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 13:47:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E908137B401; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02940; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:47:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9TLlME02938; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:47:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15325.52842.924427.464498@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:47:22 -0700 To: John Baldwin Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard , tlambert2@mindspring.com Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: References: <15325.47137.886703.730360@caddis.yogotech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > [ Moved to -chat, and reduced Cc list somewhat ] > > > >> > > type-checking than C, (but before anybody suggest it: "...but without > >> > > all > >> > > the excess luggage and emotional hangups of C++") > >> > > >> > Even implying that C++ simply has emotional hangups is like saying > >> > that Jeffrey Dahmer merely had an eating disorder. :) > >> > > >> > That language is nothing less than a distillation of raw evil. > >> > >> Any tool looks evil if it is used incorrectly. > > > > Any tool that requires you to go through the gyrations that C++ requires > > in order to accomplish simple things is evil. ;) > > My personal peeve with C++ is that is a growth on teh side of C (although at > this point it's larger than C..) I prefer the way Java lays out code > (functions defined within the class, etc.). Java is my #1 choice for language. > Unfortunately, the > implemenetations of Java running around aren't the speediest unless you are > running !FreeBSD. :-/ Depends. I've got some really speedy code that runs on FreeBSD, but we optimized the crap out of it. (Not just for FreeBSD, but it turns out the optimizations made all platforms faster, and JIT's don't effect it much.) In any case, hopefully FreeBSD will catch up with a faster JVM. The 1.3 stuff is looking much better, if only we could get the licensing issues straightened out. (Is this too much to ask, after 3 years?) > Granted, speed isn't needed for all things. See above. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 13:57:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A5037B405 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 57197 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2001 21:57:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Oct 2001 21:57:07 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15325.52842.924427.464498@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:56:56 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Jordan Hubbard , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Oct-01 Nate Williams wrote: >> > [ Moved to -chat, and reduced Cc list somewhat ] >> > >> >> > > type-checking than C, (but before anybody suggest it: "...but without >> >> > > all >> >> > > the excess luggage and emotional hangups of C++") >> >> > >> >> > Even implying that C++ simply has emotional hangups is like saying >> >> > that Jeffrey Dahmer merely had an eating disorder. :) >> >> > >> >> > That language is nothing less than a distillation of raw evil. >> >> >> >> Any tool looks evil if it is used incorrectly. >> > >> > Any tool that requires you to go through the gyrations that C++ requires >> > in order to accomplish simple things is evil. ;) >> >> My personal peeve with C++ is that is a growth on teh side of C (although at >> this point it's larger than C..) I prefer the way Java lays out code >> (functions defined within the class, etc.). > > Java is my #1 choice for language. If I was writing something using a GUI, it is for me. I _really_ like how easy it is to use things in Swing (yes, I haven't really played with Java since 1.1.x + swing days :-P). Just plug the item in a container and boom, it all works. And the interface is clean w/o needing precompilers or other hacks. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 17:20:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7881637B405 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:20:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011030012025.49292.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:20:25 PST Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:20:25 -0800 (PST) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Linux VM : forky? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1436/byt20011024s0002/1029_moshe.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 29 19:19:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCFD37B405 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:19:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a225.otenet.gr [212.205.215.225]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f9U3JR813304; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:19:27 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9U3JO736573; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:19:24 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:19:23 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux VM : forky? Message-ID: <20011030051923.A36388@hades.hell.gr> References: <20011030012025.49292.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011030012025.49292.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 05:20:25PM -0800, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1436/byt20011024s0002/1029_moshe.html Spreading FUD? :P Linux has not forked when other debates ragged for long either. It is very unlikely it will now. The article is an interesting read, although I can't agree on all the points it makes. The conslusion, is not based on actual data that this article (like most articles that refer to benchmarks) does not offer any raw data, but hey he promised to post another article with the benchmark between FreeBSD and Linux :) -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 1:14: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539B237B406; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.143.30.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.143.30] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yUvC-00076C-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:10:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:11:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > My personal peeve with C++ is that is a growth on teh side of C (although at > this point it's larger than C..) I prefer the way Java lays out code > (functions defined within the class, etc.). Unfortunately, the > implemenetations of Java running around aren't the speediest unless you are > running !FreeBSD. :-/ Granted, speed isn't needed for all things. Java has several problems: 1) It can't do multiple inheritance 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) 3) Strong typing is for weak minds -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 1:22:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AB7D37B408 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15yV6U-0002cT-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:22:38 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15yV6c-000A1j-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:22:46 +0000 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:22:46 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Chris Coleman Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD T-Shirt Message-ID: <20011030092246.D35924@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from chrisc@vmunix.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 03:28:04AM -0500 X-Scanner: exiscan *15yV6U-0002cT-00*$AK$LpBYQPt9l178KxSXfj.VW/* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Following up to -chat as well] On Oct 30, Chris Coleman wrote: > Daemon News is pleased to announce a newly re-designed BSD t-shirt. We > took our most popular t-shirt and re-drew it. > > This is a pre-order. You can view the t-shirt artwork here: > > http://mall.daemonnews.org/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=2 Which right now appears to be dead. The error message would indicate something along the lines of a slashdot effect has occured. I didn't know -announce was so popular. In the true spirit of things, is this a first post? :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 1:28:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501AE37B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9U9S5l82829 ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:28:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA62089 ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:28:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:28:04 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux VM : forky? Message-ID: <20011030102804.B60885@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Giorgos Keramidas , Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011030012025.49292.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <20011030051923.A36388@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011030051923.A36388@hades.hell.gr>; from charon@labs.gr on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 05:19:23AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas said on Oct 30, 2001 at 05:19:23: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 05:20:25PM -0800, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > > http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1436/byt20011024s0002/1029_moshe.html > > Spreading FUD? :P > > Linux has not forked when other debates ragged for long either. > It is very unlikely it will now. One could argue that linux has forked many times. Presently, Linus does one set of releases, while Alan Cox does another (which are supposed to be more "bleeding edge" but many apparently prefer to run those). Several others maintain their own trees too. In addition, every distributor releases a customised kernel which is not a "vanilla" Linus kernel at all. And ports to other architecture (PowerPC, etc) tend to diverge a lot from Linus's tree. It looks to me like Linus remains a sort of focal point, and while all the various forks try to stay somewhat in sync with him and will not want to diverge too far, I think they are forks nonetheless, by any definition. In particular, the current VM situation looks like a fork, in effect, already. Whether there will be a re-merging remains to be seen... This proliferation of forks and patches is really a problem with linux. If you want a cool feature from somewhere, and another cool feature from somewhere else, chances are quite high that the patches will conflict... this was possible even 2 years ago, which was the last time I played with linux kernel patches etc (since then I've stuck with FreeBSD like a good boy), but has apparently become a lot worse now. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 5: 0:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 780C037B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15yYUm-0004oF-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:59:56 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15yYUx-000A9A-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:00:07 +0000 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:00:07 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: fgrep - a quirky question for you all Message-ID: <20011030130007.D38696@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanner: exiscan *15yYUm-0004oF-00*$AK$.pvVYeCUtpH1vLnYeb.7a0* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not really something for -questions as it's not really a problem. More a vote, I reckon. fgrep searches files for a fixed character string. It doesn't search for patterns, just strings. It's very good at it too, and there is sometimes a performance improvement. However, after googling around we still haven't been able to resolve a small argument in this neck of the woods which is likely to turn into something larger than the editor (emacs vs. vi) wars of the last millenia unless we cap it now. You can stop this getting out of hand, and all you have to do is answer one question: What does this 'f' in fgrep stand for? Now, everybody I ask says 'fast', although I seemed to remember reading about 3 years ago in a dusty manpage somewhere (probably an Irix box I think) it meant 'fixed'. The question came up again when we started looking into how fgrep actually works. We now know GNU fgrep is 'fast grep' but there are loads of FAQs I've seen scattered around (google: how does fgrep work) that say it's fixed grep. We then attempted to do a 'hit score' to resolve the situation on search engines. Here are my results: Search Engine Fast Grep Fixed Grep --------------------------------------- Google 71,100 62,800 Google Groups 15,200 15,000 Yahoo 33,400 29,500 Lycos 555 616 Webcrawler 908,850 219,940 The last two lines confirm what I always suspected - Lycos and Webcrawler are pants. However, the other results are all very similar looking, with a slight edge to 'fast' rather than 'fixed' - not enough to be conclusive however. My colleague has resorted to searching through source code and Changelogs to find the answer, to no avail. And so, gentleman (and ladies of course), your input is now required in an attempt to resolve an argument that could turn into something bigger than the Perl vs. Shell-script trolls. Let's find an answer together for the good of mankind, or at least Usenet! :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 5:14:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tfcci.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9ED37B403 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.tfcci.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA24078; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:14:07 -0500 Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by mail.tfcci.com via smap (V2.1/2.1c) id xma024074; Tue, 30 Oct 01 08:13:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:13:35 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Bzdik BSD Cc: Subject: Re: Linux VM : forky? In-Reply-To: <20011030012025.49292.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Howdy, In all likelihood, the situation will resolve itself eventually. Once Linus decides to start the 2.5 development cycle, 2.4 kernel maintenance will fall to Alan Cox, the "heir apparant". Since Alan is still including the van Riel VM in his -ac kernel patches, it still remains to be seen as to which implementation he'll go with. Apparently some recent patches by van Riel have stabilized the -ac VM to the point where it's now a pretty worthy contender. For those that are interested in what's going on between the two implementations as well as some performance benchmarks, check out LWN's summary: http://lwn.net/2001/1018/kernel.php3 Cheers! On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1436/byt20011024s0002/1029_moshe.html > - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE73qeFtZTBgtmnGNERAgFuAKCXbWZyBJ0bkw2HnmlVPMqkkEvRywCcD5Ca mQvCGyXbxGIOB+8lJ5thk5k= =QW+8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 7:18:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD1337B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 256144; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E13B49A15; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:18:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:18:31 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Paul Robinson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD T-Shirt In-Reply-To: <20011030092246.D35924@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That does appear to be the case, sorry you weren't the first post. Looks like we need to separate the mall from the other db. We are in the process of that already. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > [Following up to -chat as well] > > On Oct 30, Chris Coleman wrote: > > > Daemon News is pleased to announce a newly re-designed BSD t-shirt. We > > took our most popular t-shirt and re-drew it. > > > > This is a pre-order. You can view the t-shirt artwork here: > > > > http://mall.daemonnews.org/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=2 > > Which right now appears to be dead. The error message would indicate > something along the lines of a slashdot effect has occured. I didn't know > -announce was so popular. > > In the true spirit of things, is this a first post? :-) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 7:20:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2467237B401; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14237; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:20:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9UFKjH06710; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:20:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:20:44 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: John Baldwin , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > My personal peeve with C++ is that is a growth on teh side of C (although at > > this point it's larger than C..) I prefer the way Java lays out code > > (functions defined within the class, etc.). Unfortunately, the > > implemenetations of Java running around aren't the speediest unless you are > > running !FreeBSD. :-/ Granted, speed isn't needed for all things. > > Java has several problems: > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance This is certainly not a problem. This is a good thing, and one of the strengths of Java. It doesn't bring in all of the *crap* that C++ does. In any case, you can perform almost all of the same functionality using interfaces, in a much cleaner fashion. I've yet to find a good example of multiple inheritance that couldn't also be done in a simpler fashion using Java + inheritance. > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) And your point is? > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds That's an elitist attitude from someone who hasn't tried using it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 7:32: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115F237B407 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 33073 invoked from network); 30 Oct 2001 15:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Oct 2001 15:31:50 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:31:49 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nate Williams Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30-Oct-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: >> My personal peeve with C++ is that is a growth on teh side of C (although at >> this point it's larger than C..) I prefer the way Java lays out code >> (functions defined within the class, etc.). Unfortunately, the >> implemenetations of Java running around aren't the speediest unless you are >> running !FreeBSD. :-/ Granted, speed isn't needed for all things. > > Java has several problems: I still prefer it to C++'s problems. :) > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance Interfaces are like multiple inheritance of pure abstract classes and are simpler to get right. > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) So? > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds Or lazy ones. :) I wouldn't use Java for OS hacking, but for applications, strong typing is more useful. > -- Terry -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:13:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp003pub.verizon.net (smtp003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8313837B401; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp003pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id f9UGCc308495 Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:12:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA36249; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:12:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:12:53 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: John Baldwin Cc: Terry Lambert , Jordan Hubbard , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nate Williams Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 Message-ID: <20011030081253.D36195@darkstar.gte.net> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 07:31:49AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm curious, have any of you tried python? What are your opinions? I could not get past the fact that if I wrote a program in Java, I couldn't say so anywhere. All the Sun legalese put me off. Maybe its the attitude I've developed while running such a good OS, but I don't like playing the Sun vs MS game while I code. Thanks, [RC] On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 07:31:49AM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 30-Oct-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > > John Baldwin wrote: > >> My personal peeve with C++ is that is a growth on teh side of C (although at > >> this point it's larger than C..) I prefer the way Java lays out code > >> (functions defined within the class, etc.). Unfortunately, the > >> implemenetations of Java running around aren't the speediest unless you are > >> running !FreeBSD. :-/ Granted, speed isn't needed for all things. > > > > Java has several problems: > > I still prefer it to C++'s problems. :) > > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance > > Interfaces are like multiple inheritance of pure abstract classes and are > simpler to get right. > > > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) > > So? > > > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds > > Or lazy ones. :) I wouldn't use Java for OS hacking, but for applications, > strong typing is more useful. > > > -- Terry > > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:16: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2EAB37B405; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16437; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:15:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9UGFxs07085; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:15:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15326.53822.743881.437495@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:15:58 -0700 To: Robert Clark Cc: John Baldwin , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nate Williams Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <20011030081253.D36195@darkstar.gte.net> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <20011030081253.D36195@darkstar.gte.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm curious, have any of you tried python? What are your opinions? I haven't, sorry. However, I've heard very good things about it. > I could not get past the fact that if I wrote a program in Java, > I couldn't say so anywhere. Huh? You can certainly say that it's a Java program legally. As a matter of fact, you may *have* to say it's a Java program, to warn the consumer why it's so slow. :) :) Nate > > On 30-Oct-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > > > John Baldwin wrote: > > >> My personal peeve with C++ is that is a growth on teh side of C (although at > > >> this point it's larger than C..) I prefer the way Java lays out code > > >> (functions defined within the class, etc.). Unfortunately, the > > >> implemenetations of Java running around aren't the speediest unless you are > > >> running !FreeBSD. :-/ Granted, speed isn't needed for all things. > > > > > > Java has several problems: > > > > I still prefer it to C++'s problems. :) > > > > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance > > > > Interfaces are like multiple inheritance of pure abstract classes and are > > simpler to get right. > > > > > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > > > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) > > > > So? > > > > > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds > > > > Or lazy ones. :) I wouldn't use Java for OS hacking, but for applications, > > strong typing is more useful. > > > > > -- Terry > > > > -- > > > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > > PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:17:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D088337B401; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.128.217.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.128.217] helo=mindspring.com) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15ybaD-0002Hi-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:17:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:18:36 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > Java has several problems: > > > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance > > This is certainly not a problem. This is a good thing, and one of the > strengths of Java. It doesn't bring in all of the *crap* that C++ does. > In any case, you can perform almost all of the same functionality using > interfaces, in a much cleaner fashion. I've yet to find a good example > of multiple inheritance that couldn't also be done in a simpler fashion > using Java + inheritance. I've run into several instances where I needed to marshall objects from a local node to a remote node, and then reinstance them, without explicitly knowing anything other than that they inherit from a particular class, and then later marshall them again (either back or elsewhere). Sprite has a nice example of this in their FS implementation, when doing user space developement of FS code. Choices (University of Kentucky, circa 1994 Bell Labs sponsored research) has similar issues, and the whole OS supports object inheritance. I've also seen a number of design patterns that could not be used without a bridge pattern because of the lack of multiple inheritance (i.e. instead of doing an overlay of the common parts of two or more patterns, you had to use reflection to make the common parts act common, even though they weren't actually common). Java is really "dumbed down" in order to make it safe for people who aren't very meticulous about their coding. > > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) > > And your point is? Instance but unconstructed objects are inherently bad. > > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds > > That's an elitist attitude from someone who hasn't tried using it. I've implemented the majority of the Java 1.2 and JavaX 1.2 classes, as well as the JavaMail API in C++. I've also done not an inconsiderable amount of work in Rational Rose with "plain old Java". I think that historically, we will find that Java will end up being a compiled language, and will serve predominantly as a cross platform API. This is, I think, the reason that Microsoft targeted it for the "embrace and extend" treatment. The inability to apply a decent optimizer to JIT'ed code is just the icing on the cake. FWIW: dynamic scoping is cool; but garbage collection is not something one can afford, when designing an embedded system. The InterJet, going forward, was intended to have much code in Java (in fact, it had some interesting Java code from the IBM Almaden research center in it); Archie Cobbs is also a major contributor to Kaffe, and was one of the primary developers on the InterJet. That said, the overhead of using Java was _significant_, and one of the things we had to do (add a more powerful CPU and more RAM) pushed in a number of undesirable attributes, as wll, including, but not limited to, the addition of moving parts to the product (fans) to dissipate the increased heat from the increased hardware bulk required. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:23: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795CD37B405; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.128.217.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.128.217] helo=mindspring.com) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15ybfC-00003l-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:22:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDED411.DDEA0BD7@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:23:45 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nate Williams Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > > Java has several problems: > > I still prefer it to C++'s problems. :) These all devolve into programmer issues. They are no worse than the requirement to use prototypes or the "volatile" keyword, which were added to C. > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance > > Interfaces are like multiple inheritance of pure abstract classes and are > simpler to get right. They are simpler, but they rob you of the ability to do necessarily complex tasks. > > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) > > So? It should not be permited to have unconstructed instances lying around. This all derives from Java trying to claim that it doesn't have pointers, it has "references". IMO, this was added for CS professors who still are unable to distinguish pointer and array math. As a friend of mine might says "Happy Prof Land" (the same place where array indices are never out of bounds). > > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds > > Or lazy ones. :) I wouldn't use Java for OS hacking, but for applications, > strong typing is more useful. Sized types would be much more useful, particularly for C, but ANSI keeps wimping out... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:25:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B33737B403 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9UGOZg22598; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:24:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:24:35 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: Chris Fuhrman Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux VM : forky? Message-ID: <20011030112435.A22407@techsquare.com> References: <20011030012025.49292.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cfuhrman@tfcci.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 08:13:35AM -0500 Organization: TechSquare Inc X-PGP-ID: 56D99DC1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Agreed. The -aa VM thats Linus released into 2.4.10 (i believe) has a number of problems and caused alot of users (including myself) to move to the -ac branch. Which oddly enough has turned into the more stable of the two tree's. It will be interesting to see what happends with the -ac tree since currently Linus has been adding parts of both VM's into his branch. Linux development is a confusing thing. -jfo On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 08:13:35AM -0500, Chris Fuhrman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Howdy, > > In all likelihood, the situation will resolve itself eventually. Once > Linus decides to start the 2.5 development cycle, 2.4 kernel maintenance > will fall to Alan Cox, the "heir apparant". > > Since Alan is still including the van Riel VM in his -ac kernel patches, > it still remains to be seen as to which implementation he'll go with. > Apparently some recent patches by van Riel have stabilized the -ac VM to > the point where it's now a pretty worthy contender. > > For those that are interested in what's going on between the two > implementations as well as some performance benchmarks, check out LWN's > summary: > > http://lwn.net/2001/1018/kernel.php3 > > Cheers! > > On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > > > http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1436/byt20011024s0002/1029_moshe.html > > > > - -- > Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications > cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer > (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | > (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net > > iD8DBQE73qeFtZTBgtmnGNERAgFuAKCXbWZyBJ0bkw2HnmlVPMqkkEvRywCcD5Ca > mQvCGyXbxGIOB+8lJ5thk5k= > =QW+8 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:37:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E59837B407; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17284; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:37:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9UGax607195; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:36:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15326.55082.743110.502241@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:36:58 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Nate Williams , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Java has several problems: > > > > > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance > > > > This is certainly not a problem. This is a good thing, and one of the > > strengths of Java. It doesn't bring in all of the *crap* that C++ does. > > In any case, you can perform almost all of the same functionality using > > interfaces, in a much cleaner fashion. I've yet to find a good example > > of multiple inheritance that couldn't also be done in a simpler fashion > > using Java + inheritance. > > I've run into several instances where I needed to marshall > objects from a local node to a remote node, and then reinstance > them, without explicitly knowing anything other than that they > inherit from a particular class, and then later marshall them > again (either back or elsewhere). Using interfaces + Serialization, this is trivial, as well as much cleaner than in C++, IMO. I did this all the time in my last Java application. > I've also seen a number of design patterns that could not > be used without a bridge pattern because of the lack of > multiple inheritance (i.e. instead of doing an overlay of > the common parts of two or more patterns, you had to use > reflection to make the common parts act common, even though > they weren't actually common). Again, my experience is quite the opposite. We implemented so many design patterns from the book directly in Java in a *much* easier to understand way than the C++ implementations that I was forever convinced that C++ should be killed dead. (Unfortunately, my new job has me doing C++ development, which I absolutely hate.) > Java is really "dumbed down" in order to make it safe for people who > aren't very meticulous about their coding. Yeah right. I've been doing C/C++ coding for 16 years, and *EVERY* single person I've spoken with that has done significant coding in both C++ and Java would choose the latter in a heartbeat, since it allows them to focus on the problem at hand, rather than the language. Again, you're being elitist, especially considering you've never coded up anything significant in Java. > > > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > > > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) > > > > And your point is? > > Instance but unconstructed objects are inherently bad. Because? Static classes are a necessary evil (IMO), and is what makes the Java language useful, vs. a nice CS solution. (In theory, one never needs unconstructed objects, but in practice things are very different.) The use of static classes are what makes the language able to handle most of design patterns in a simple manner. > > > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds > > > > That's an elitist attitude from someone who hasn't tried using it. > > I've implemented the majority of the Java 1.2 and JavaX 1.2 > classes, as well as the JavaMail API in C++. I actually re-implemented parts of the JavaMail API in Perl once, and it was pretty trivial. I wouldn't call it a 'significant' programming challenge to re-implement the classes. What I find interesting is that you didn't choose a C++ class as the basic for implementing the API. Also, what JavaX extensions did you implement? There are about a zillion of them. > I've also done not an inconsiderable amount of work in Rational Rose > with "plain old Java". RR is not a Java product, IMO. Claiming to be a Java programmer because you used RR is like saying you're a Basic programmer because you made a nice QUI in V-Basic. > I think that historically, we will find that Java will end up > being a compiled language, and will serve predominantly as a > cross platform API. That's your call to make. I don't see it happening, as there still isn't a single usable compiler for Java. (The closest one to being usable is TowerJ, but it leaves out all of the AWT/Swing/GUI classes, making it less than useful.) > This is, I think, the reason that Microsoft targeted it for > the "embrace and extend" treatment. Java on M$ is a dead product. > The inability to apply a decent optimizer to JIT'ed code is > just the icing on the cake. Actually, you haven't done much lately, since the new JIT's are quite usable. (However, I've found that I can get close to native speed by optimizing my Java code, which is *infinitely* easier to do in Java than in any other language since the tools have access to a much larger > FWIW: dynamic scoping is cool; but garbage collection is not > something one can afford, when designing an embedded system. Blanket statements like that prove that you are being elitist. You really should get out more often Terry. > The InterJet, going forward, was intended to have much code > in Java (in fact, it had some interesting Java code from the > IBM Almaden research center in it); IBM has done some very interesting work with Java. We're using some of the stuff as well. (In particular, their Java compiler, JIKES rocks!) > Archie Cobbs is also a > major contributor to Kaffe, and was one of the primary > developers on the InterJet. I'm aware of Archie's work. He's continued to keep up the FreeBSD port of Jikes, which I continue to use for my Java non-paywork. We attempted to use Kaffe for our Java product, and kept giving up in disgust. The final straw was when M$ bought the primary Kaffe developers off which effectively killed the product. The basic Sun JVM w/out a JIT out-performed Kaffe with a JIT, because of bugs and non-support for many of the Java 1.1 features, and some bugs in the Java 1.0 support. Don't compare Java using Kaffe with Java performance. (And, I understand that cost was the primary reason that Whistle chose Kaffe vs. Sun's JVM, but it's still unfair to imply that using Kaffe for your JVM is a fair comparison to how Java performs.) > That said, the overhead of using Java was _significant_, and > one of the things we had to do (add a more powerful CPU and > more RAM) pushed in a number of undesirable attributes, as > wll, including, but not limited to, the addition of moving > parts to the product (fans) to dissipate the increased heat > from the increased hardware bulk required. *laugh* You are entertaining, if nothing else Terry. I can give you counter-proposals about how a Java implemented solution used *LESS* CPU and RAM than a functionally equal C++ application. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:40:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CD3F37B403 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61534 invoked by uid 100); 30 Oct 2001 16:39:21 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15326.55225.430968.40694@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:39:21 -0600 To: Robert Clark Cc: John Baldwin , Terry Lambert , Jordan Hubbard , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nate Williams Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <20011030081253.D36195@darkstar.gte.net> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <20011030081253.D36195@darkstar.gte.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark types: > I'm curious, have any of you tried python? What are your opinions? I write in it regularly. It manages to be terse without being unreadable. Some people are really put off by whitespace being significant. If that puts you off and you want a more C-like syntax, you might take a look at ruby. When invoked with no arguments, it has a real REPL, and most classes carry their documentation with them. It makes it possible to program interactively. It's also been OO from day one, so you get more leverage from that. On the other hand, you can't do even simple things without having to know how to reference the attribute of an object. Make no mistake - it's scripting language, not systems language. It's slower than Java because it has no type checking. However, I like the way it integrates with C (or Fortran, or Java) better, as it's straightforward to create objects that are wrappers for your C/Fortran/Whatever code and use them from Python. All of which is part of why Python is popular in places that deal with objects that have to do lots of number crunching. You wrap your complex objects in Python, making the messy calculation methods, and you can then play with them with simple scripts instead of having to recompile fortran programs that invoke those functions. You can even do it interactively. > I could not get past the fact that if I wrote a program in Java, > I couldn't say so anywhere. All the Sun legalese put me off. When I did Java, I used the Python implemnted in Java as a test harness. Compile my classes, run JPython, load my classes, create instances and make sure they behaved as expected. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:43: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D90A37B403; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:42:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17510; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:42:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9UGgv907224; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:42:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15326.55441.615206.243327@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:42:57 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org, Nate Williams Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BDED411.DDEA0BD7@mindspring.com> References: <3BDED411.DDEA0BD7@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Java has several problems: > > > > I still prefer it to C++'s problems. :) > > These all devolve into programmer issues. They are no worse > than the requirement to use prototypes or the "volatile" > keyword, which were added to C. You don't *have* to use volatile in C, and the addition of the volatile keyword came out of C++ work. We can blame it on C++. (I have a friend on the C++ standards committee, and we love to give him grief about what a joke the language is.) > > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance > > > > Interfaces are like multiple inheritance of pure abstract classes and are > > simpler to get right. > > They are simpler, but they rob you of the ability to do > necessarily complex tasks. A generalization. They may require you to do them differently than you would in C++, but certainly don't rob you of the ability to do them. This rethinking is a *GOOD* thing. > > > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > > > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) > > > > So? > > It should not be permited to have unconstructed instances > lying around. This all derives from Java trying to claim > that it doesn't have pointers, it has "references". > > IMO, this was added for CS professors who still are unable > to distinguish pointer and array math. No, this annoys CS professors, who don't claim this is a pure object oriented language. However, those of us who want to solve problems (vs. debate the pureness of the language) are pretty happy. :) (The same CS professors complain about native types, which are not pure objects, but allow the language to actually have usable performance. Again, it's a theory vs. practical argument.) > As a friend of mine might says "Happy Prof Land" (the same > place where array indices are never out of bounds). How you compare un-instantiated classes and out-of-bounds array indices is beyond me. They are so unrelated. You are a funny guy Terry. :) > > > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds > > > > Or lazy ones. :) I wouldn't use Java for OS hacking, but for applications, > > strong typing is more useful. > > Sized types would be much more useful, particularly for C, > but ANSI keeps wimping out... I agree that having sized types would be nice for OS level stuff, that's for sure. I'd like enumerations as well, but the amount of things that Java is missing vs. the amount of good stuff it has so far surpasses C++ that it's not even funny. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 8:54:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goliath.cnchost.com (goliath.cnchost.com [207.155.252.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB85E37B408 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by goliath.cnchost.com id LAA13598; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:53:12 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200110301653.LAA13598@goliath.cnchost.com> To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Fabio Miranda , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: offtopic: c questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:09:52 PDT." <3BDB0680.E8714908@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:53:11 -0800 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > hi, I am freebsd user, i want to know: > > 1. I would like to understand network byte ordering > > concepts. I know some machines are "little endian" and > > "big endian", and tcpip provides a standard called > > network ordering throught htonl, htons,etc fuctions. > > I want to know How does look like bigendians and > > network byte ordering?, how can i know if i am in a > > little or bigendian host? > > It has to do with whether the most significant bit of a > multibyte value is in the first byte or the last byte, > when a multibyte value is converted to a stream of > bytes on a network transport. > > It is a corruption of whether you put "the big end in to > the pipe first, or the little end in", combined with a > joke on the English similarity in pronunciation between > the word pair "end in" and the word "Indian" -- hence the > use of the "a" in the contration: "endian" instead of > "endin". Terry, I am surprised you didn't cite `On holy wars and a plea for peace' by Danny Cohen (USC/ISI IEN 137) which is where the computer related use of the big/little endian terms started. There are copies floating around on the net. At any rate I doubt Jonathan Swift had Indians in mind when he coined these terms in Gulliver's Travels. > Network byte order is Motorolla byte order, which is the > opposite of that of the x86 architecture. Network byte order is big endian. Also note that the network *bit* order is big endian as well (as can be seen by looking at any packet layout in various RFCs), while Motorola and most all big endian machines use little endian bit order (bit0 == LSB, bit31 == MSB). Intel machines are pure little endian. To add to the confusion, usually the first *transmitted* bit is LSB of the first (and most significant) byte! One can know the host endianness by this trick: long x = 0x30313233; int main(int c,char*v) { printf("%s endian\n", memcmp(&x, "0123", 4)? "little" : "big"); } Basically we are checking (for big endianness) if byte0 of x is '0', byte1 is '1' and so on. > > 2. I am student of computer science, but at my > > university noone use freebsd or code bsd socket, so, > > i am doing this by my own, but it's hard, i read > > commer book about tcpip, but, i dont understand the > > concepts, i have printed almost all freebsd man > > related to sockets. I would like to know what way did > > you guy follow to understand tpcip understand unix?, i > > dont have money to buy a book at amazon, but, is that > > the only way? can't i understand unix tcpip > > programming with free resources? > > Read the Richard Stevens books instead of the Comer book. A quick Google search for 'tcp/ip programming tutorial' revealed http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~beej/guide/net/ Not a substitute for Stevens' books but it is free! There may be other resources on the net. Regardless of what books Fabio reads he should also study working code (ttcp for example) and _write_ lots of code. It is the "doing of" not "reading about" something that leads to enlightenment. Finally I can resisting suggesting that Fabio should consider moving to plan9 -- a far simpler & cleaner system brought to you by Bell Labs (where unix originated) and a joy to use. plan9.bell-labs.com and www.fywss.con/plan9 are a couple of good starting points. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 9:22:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [216.90.196.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9492637B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kaila@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA58029 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:22:31 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:22:31 -0600 (CST) From: Kaila To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: OPUS CBCS - Source? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Odd question....does anyone happen to know if the source code for the old Opus CBCS system is available anywhere? I'd love to port that to FreeBSD... [ Name : Christine F. Maxwell ] [ ICQ : #45010616 ] [ EMail : cfm@o-o.org ] [ IRC : Kaila ] [ Home : http://www.cfm.o-o.org/ ] [ BBS : http://www.aci.o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 10: 6:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (h24-68-206-125.sbm.shawcable.net [24.68.206.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DB137B401; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f9UI6UM03614; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:06:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9UI6Ti03567; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:06:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:06:29 -0700 From: Chad David To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nate Williams , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 Message-ID: <20011030110629.A3499@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 08:18:36AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 08:18:36AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Nate Williams wrote: > > > Java has several problems: > > > > > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance > > > > This is certainly not a problem. This is a good thing, and one of the > > strengths of Java. It doesn't bring in all of the *crap* that C++ does. > > In any case, you can perform almost all of the same functionality using > > interfaces, in a much cleaner fashion. I've yet to find a good example > > of multiple inheritance that couldn't also be done in a simpler fashion > > using Java + inheritance. > > I've run into several instances where I needed to marshall > objects from a local node to a remote node, and then reinstance > them, without explicitly knowing anything other than that they > inherit from a particular class, and then later marshall them > again (either back or elsewhere). What does this have to do with multiple inheritance? Every major java server I've every written did exactly this, and a base class being a constant is a must. I don't see how multiple inheritance would change this. > > Sprite has a nice example of this in their FS implementation, > when doing user space developement of FS code. > > Choices (University of Kentucky, circa 1994 Bell Labs sponsored > research) has similar issues, and the whole OS supports object > inheritance. > > I've also seen a number of design patterns that could not > be used without a bridge pattern because of the lack of > multiple inheritance (i.e. instead of doing an overlay of > the common parts of two or more patterns, you had to use > reflection to make the common parts act common, even though > they weren't actually common). Could you give a more concrete example of what you are talking about. If you are arguing that using reflection is not pure then I might agree (if you have a better way). Also, I've observed the exact opposite, you need reflection to stop the common parts from acting common, ie. in order to cast the base class to its real type. Have you ever taken a look at SableCC? They make very effective use of interfaces without every using reflection or multiple inheritance. > > Java is really "dumbed down" in order to make it safe for > people who aren't very meticulous about their coding. I think this is a very easy statement to make without actually giving the language any of its due credit. I spent four indepth years with java, and while I do not miss it, I do have a respect for it in its place. Come to think of it, C is really "dumbed down" in order to make it safe for people who aren't very meticulous about their [assembly] coding. :). > > > > > 2) You can instance classes without constructing them (the > > > JavaMail API has a number of examples of this) > > > > And your point is? > > Instance but unconstructed objects are inherently bad. Again could you give an example. I don't really understand what you mean. I am unaware of any way of creating an object without invoking one of a classes constructors. The Serialization classes do it via a native method (since a class may not have a predictable constructor signature). > > > > > 3) Strong typing is for weak minds > > > > That's an elitist attitude from someone who hasn't tried using it. > > I've implemented the majority of the Java 1.2 and JavaX 1.2 > classes, as well as the JavaMail API in C++. I've also done > not an inconsiderable amount of work in Rational Rose with > "plain old Java". > > I think that historically, we will find that Java will end up > being a compiled language, and will serve predominantly as a > cross platform API. I would like to see an Objective C like implementation for java, but I fear some of the language and class interation design decisions may make that very difficult to actually acheive. > > This is, I think, the reason that Microsoft targeted it for > the "embrace and extend" treatment. > > The inability to apply a decent optimizer to JIT'ed code is > just the icing on the cake. > > FWIW: dynamic scoping is cool; but garbage collection is not > something one can afford, when designing an embedded system. Have you ever worked with the Real-Time Specification? I do not know anybody who has... > > The InterJet, going forward, was intended to have much code > in Java (in fact, it had some interesting Java code from the > IBM Almaden research center in it); Archie Cobbs is also a > major contributor to Kaffe, and was one of the primary > developers on the InterJet. > > That said, the overhead of using Java was _significant_, and > one of the things we had to do (add a more powerful CPU and > more RAM) pushed in a number of undesirable attributes, as > wll, including, but not limited to, the addition of moving > parts to the product (fans) to dissipate the increased heat > from the increased hardware bulk required. I agree entirely that the size and speed of java is its weakest point. The memory footprint of two or three jvm's on a server is just stupid, and GUI's are way to slow... makes me want to go back to win32. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada "When Linux was first ported to the Furby platform, it suffered from significant stability and performance problems, which gave the Furby an unfortunate reputation as being unsuitable for enterprise-level computing." -- furbeowulf site To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 10:11:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D949237B405; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09610; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:11:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030111010.0512bb20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:10:55 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, John Baldwin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard In-Reply-To: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:11 AM 10/30/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >3) Strong typing is for weak minds So, then, are guards on power tools, ground fault protectors on electrical outlets, and seat belts on cars.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 11:19: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA4E337B438 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9UJJ1170183 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:19:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:19:01 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BYTE article Message-ID: <20011030111901.A69935@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This Byte article http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1436/byt20011024s0002/1029_moshe.html discusses the new LinuX VM subsystem. But, if you scan to the bottom the authors gives a hint at a comparison of FreeBSD-4.4 and a new linux kernel. Could be interesting. -- Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 12:18: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D41737B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f9UKHeB20997 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:17:40 +0100 (CET) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Thought experiment Message-ID: <1004473055.3bdf0adfe5701@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:17:35 +0100 (CET) From: Salvo Bartolotta MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.236.212 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The 11 September terrorists chose the possible targets very carefully. They knew perfectly well that, if they had hit such a country as China, which is not exactly a democracy despite the adoption of some "rotten" western models (eg economic ones), they would have been hopeless. I would imagine that China's reaction probably developed along the lines of: Step 1) you have _one day_ to surrender, without conditions. Taliban (and Bin Laden's) answer: WE WILL NEVER EVER SURRENDER! -- Pakistan (speaking to China): WE WON'T ALLOW THIS BY ANY MEANS! WE HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS, TOO! -- China's reply: _Shut_ _up_. More than 1,000 nuclear missiles are already targeted on Pakistan. If we see __one__ fly take off and direct towards us, you will be removed from History (and Geography) for the next few billion years. Step 2) (After systematically bombing Afghanistan, causing huge military damage and killing at least 1,000,000 people in the process) Now you have _twelve_ hours to surrender. Taliban answer 2) we will never surrender. step 3) (After killing at least 4,000,000 people) Now you have _six_ hours to surrender. If you don't, no form of life will ever be found in Afghanistan for the next few billion years. I think that the action outlined in Step 2) would never occur. Step 1) would be more than enough. The reaction of the press on such an occasion would be very interesting. Actually, Mr Bin Laden and his Afghan friends will most probably never hit China or Chinese targets. With China, no cigar. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 12:46:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3DF37B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a008.otenet.gr [212.205.215.8]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f9UKk9G01858; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:46:09 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9UE7bZ42100; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:07:37 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:07:37 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux VM : forky? Message-ID: <20011030160736.B41047@hades.hell.gr> References: <20011030012025.49292.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <20011030051923.A36388@hades.hell.gr> <20011030102804.B60885@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011030102804.B60885@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 10:28:04AM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas said on Oct 30, 2001 at 05:19:23: > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 05:20:25PM -0800, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > > > > http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1436/byt20011024s0002/1029_moshe.html > > > > Spreading FUD? :P > > > > Linux has not forked when other debates ragged for long either. > > It is very unlikely it will now. > > One could argue that linux has forked many times. Presently, Linus > does one set of releases, while Alan Cox does another (which are > supposed to be more "bleeding edge" but many apparently prefer to run > those). Several others maintain their own trees too. In addition, > every distributor releases a customised kernel which is not a > "vanilla" Linus kernel at all. And ports to other architecture > (PowerPC, etc) tend to diverge a lot from Linus's tree. It looks to > me like Linus remains a sort of focal point, and while all the various > forks try to stay somewhat in sync with him and will not want to > diverge too far, I think they are forks nonetheless, by any > definition. With a rather broad definition of a fork, yes, one can argue that ports to other architectures, and -ac patches have always been exactly that, `forks'. Having Linus as a focal point though makes things a tiny bit more likely that efforts which diverge for a while will eventually merge with the `official' Linux tree later on. > In particular, the current VM situation looks like a fork, in effect, > already. Whether there will be a re-merging remains to be seen... This is, I'm afraid the only way to actually test, debug, develop and benchmark new changes and ideas with Linux. It is true that in the old days, a release with an even middle number was considered something like FreeBSD's -STABLE, and only in 2.5.x changes would be accepted that make large or radical changes, sweeping over the Linux code tree. It is also true that this thin red line, separating stable from experimental releases has grown a bit thiner during the last few years. We can only wait and see what happens. When Archangeli's VM or Rik van Riel's VM or some other new VM implementation, yet to come, is finally chosen as `The Linux VM' and things settle down, what now seems like a fork will be history :) > [a conflict among kernel patches] was possible even 2 years ago, > which was the last time I played with linux kernel patches etc > (since then I've stuck with FreeBSD like a good boy), but has > apparently become a lot worse now. Of course you do understand that patching the kernel, and making it different than the one which has been tested with the particular release, is something akin to kernel hacking, since you are no longer using the `official' kernel of your distribution. If bad things happen with a kernel like this, but not with the kernel your distribution's latest release came with, you can't blame Linux :P -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 13:35:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E6C37B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihws.com ([63.218.21.114] helo=[192.168.0.102]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15ygXg-0004Am-00; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:35:29 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:35:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Start scripts as "deamons" From: Frank Laszlo To: Cc: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org on 10/30/01 4:18 PM, Jacco used the force from jacco@lionsoft.xs4all.nl: > Hi all, >=20 > In various linux version i find the /etc/inittab to start scripts in > "respanw" modus. Is there somethin similar available in FreeBSD. >=20 > Currently working with 4.4 RELEASE. >=20 > Thanks in advance, >=20 > Jacco >=20 > ________________________________________________ >=20 > private: http://lionsoft.xs4all.nl > business: http://www.exel.com > ________________________________________________ >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message Are you talking about crontab? or maybe /usr/local/etc/rc.d either way, crontab will allow you to run scripts and make sure they keep running at specified times, and the fold i specified is the folder to put scripts in that you wish to have start when you boot. hope that helps... Frank Laszlo, System's Engineer nez@freebsdmatrix.net /-------------------------------------------------------\ | =80 Microsoft: "Where would you like to go to today?" | | =80 Linux: "Where would you like to go tomorrow?" | | =80 FreeBSD: "Hey, when are you guys going to catch up?" | \_______________________________________________________/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 13:54: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lionsoft.xs4all.nl (lionsoft.xs4all.nl [213.84.78.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E711837B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from win2kws1 (win2k-ws1 [10.1.1.20]) by lionsoft.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA23763; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:53:41 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Jacco" To: "Frank Laszlo" Cc: Subject: RE: Start scripts as "deamons" Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:53:50 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Frank, | Are you talking about crontab? or maybe /usr/local/etc/rc.d | either way, crontab will allow you to run scripts and make sure they keep | running at specified times, and the fold i specified is the folder to put | scripts in that you wish to have start when you boot. Unfortunately I realy mean a inittab: # inittab This file describes how the INIT process should set up # the system in a certain run-level. # # Default runlevel. The runlevels used by RHS are: # 0 - halt (Do NOT set initdefault to this) # 1 - Single user mode # 2 - Multiuser, without NFS (The same as 3, if you do not have networking) # 3 - Full multiuser mode # 4 - unused # 5 - X11 # 6 - reboot (Do NOT set initdefault to this) processname:23:respawn:scriptname This means that the script always runs when the machine is up and not at a defined time (crontab). You can kill it with a "killall -HUP processname" and it comes right back up and running again..... (on my RedHat 6.2 machine witch is a bad one and has to be replaced by FreeBSD). I'm looking for a similar option in Freebsd. Thank you, Jacco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 14:24:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CC837B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f9UMP0u73093; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:25:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:24:59 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Kaila Cc: Subject: Re: OPUS CBCS - Source? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Kaila wrote: > > Odd question....does anyone happen to know if the source code for the > old Opus CBCS system is available anywhere? I'd love to port that to > FreeBSD... I remember Opus! It ran on DOS, and I don't think was ever shipped with source (being shareware and all). You might have better luck finding a copy of it and harassing the author so listed. There should be one hiding on the old simtel archives, or I may have a set from my old floppy archives. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 14:53:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154CD37B408 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 46F6417BE7; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3048315D08; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:53:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:53:08 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Jacco Cc: Frank Laszlo , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Start scripts as "deamons" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Jacco wrote: > Hi Frank, > > | Are you talking about crontab? or maybe /usr/local/etc/rc.d > | either way, crontab will allow you to run scripts and make sure they keep > | running at specified times, and the fold i specified is the folder to put > | scripts in that you wish to have start when you boot. > > Unfortunately I realy mean a inittab: > > This means that the script always runs when the machine is up and not at a > defined time (crontab). You can kill it with a "killall -HUP processname" > and it comes right back up and running again..... (on my RedHat 6.2 machine > witch is a bad one and has to be replaced by FreeBSD). > I'm looking for a similar option in Freebsd. take a look at d.j. bernstein's daemontools: http://cr.yp.to/daemontools.html davdi o > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 14:57:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7231637B401 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC7ABD1C; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02168; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:57:11 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9UMtpT51642; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:55:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror))) References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 30 Oct 2001 14:55:51 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <403d40g2ko.d40@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > Moreover, when the US hit Japan with nuclear weapons, the US > indiscriminately killed many civilians without specifically targeting > industry. A justification I've read of the incendiary (including Napalm(TM)) bombing of Japan's mostly-wooden cities was that their industry (piecework and considerably larger) was widely distributed outside conventional factories. I suppose that both the conventianal and distributed industry and residences were more closely intermixed than in the cites of Europe and America because of less advanced transportation. The point is that I'm not sure that the US in WWII ever considered that their targeting, nuclear or conventional, was anything but industry- targeted, at least in their rationalizations. (The rationalizations had to be stretched much further in Europe.) (I don't know how much they bothered with these rationalizations, or if they relied more on the many other, more generic ones available.) Of course, it's hard to believe that they didn't consider to some degree the beneficial aspects of the terror that city-burning (whether over several days or in one flash) surely invokes. But it's also clear they didn't plan to depend on terror to achieve their goals. The story goes that Truman did not order that two bombs would be dropped so that they could expect a surrendor or be able to tell Japan to "surrendor or else". Truman just said "A-bombs away" (as fast as they could be produced -- which would be very slow at first). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 16: 0:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3A437B406 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5585DBCFE; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17793; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:00:23 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9UNx3O51648; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helpingvictims of terror))) References: <3BDCC97B.43329BD3@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 30 Oct 2001 15:59:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3BDCC97B.43329BD3@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Then I see the annointed asking of we are any better than the enemy when > > reports of innocent (whatever that means) civilians are killed are heard. > > Civilians are, by definition, non-combatants. Personally, I > don't care if they are "innocent" or not: they are still > non-combatants. Innocence can never be judged: only guilt or > lack of guilt: that's why, in criminal trials, we find people > to be "not guilty", rather than finding them to be "innocent". It seems that that would put non-combatant armed services members (eg, the cook and the General in charge of West Point, or even the one in charge of Infantry maybe) in the same category. And note that the previous poster said, "innocent (whatever that means)". My dictionary says it means "not guilty" (among other things which you might be thinking of), so innocence can be judged if guilt can be judged. Both words can refer both to whether one has done something and to whether one has been or shall be held responsible for it. (Legalese isn't the language of FreeBSD-chat, so we can't always insist on the Legal meaning of each other's words here.) But I don't get the point anyway. Can't non-combatants be as important to your cause as combatants? In modern times, production of arms is more important than the use of them, in some ways. I agree that it's good to try to avoid civilian casualties, but there are more important things to avoid which I shouldn't need to list. BTW, we really shouldn't be finding people "not guilty" and we don't, really. We do not find them guilty. This is only one example of the very common misplacement of "not", as in "I do not recommend that you ..." vs. "I recommend that you not ...", or "I don't think that you should ..." vs "I think that you should not ...". There's a difference. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 30 16:58:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E856337B408 for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7311 invoked by uid 100); 31 Oct 2001 00:58:29 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15327.19637.32544.539261@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:58:29 -0600 To: Cc: "Frank Laszlo" , Subject: RE: Start scripts as "deamons" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jacco types: > # inittab This file describes how the INIT process should set up > # the system in a certain run-level. > # > > # Default runlevel. The runlevels used by RHS are: > # 0 - halt (Do NOT set initdefault to this) > # 1 - Single user mode > # 2 - Multiuser, without NFS (The same as 3, if you do not have > networking) > # 3 - Full multiuser mode > # 4 - unused > # 5 - X11 > # 6 - reboot (Do NOT set initdefault to this) > > processname:23:respawn:scriptname > > > This means that the script always runs when the machine is up and not at a > defined time (crontab). You can kill it with a "killall -HUP processname" > and it comes right back up and running again..... (on my RedHat 6.2 machine > witch is a bad one and has to be replaced by FreeBSD). > I'm looking for a similar option in Freebsd. The tool is still init, but it goes in the ttys file: processname scriptname terminal on scritpname is invoked with processname as an argument. TERM is set to the value of terminal, and the last status is either on or off to enable or disable that particular command. See the init(8) man page for more information. There's an example floating around in the PR database as well, but I'm not sure what happened to it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 0:27:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0868037B406; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.195] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yqie-0006YS-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:27:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDFB624.D85F5352@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:28:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> <15326.55082.743110.502241@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > I've run into several instances where I needed to marshall > > objects from a local node to a remote node, and then reinstance > > them, without explicitly knowing anything other than that they > > inherit from a particular class, and then later marshall them > > again (either back or elsewhere). > > Using interfaces + Serialization, this is trivial, as well as much > cleaner than in C++, IMO. I did this all the time in my last Java > application. It doesn't work if the object whose interface you are exporting is opaque to where you are exporting it... it's very hard to reinstance an object for which you don't know the class. In C++, I can actually pass such an object through a third party, but with Java, it's practically impossible, without the third party knowing the object layout. See the Sun draft RFC on the serialization of Java objects into LDAP directories: the objects can't be active in the directories (e.g. for adding new attribute types) because of this. > > Java is really "dumbed down" in order to make it safe for people who > > aren't very meticulous about their coding. > > Yeah right. I've been doing C/C++ coding for 16 years, and *EVERY* > single person I've spoken with that has done significant coding in both > C++ and Java would choose the latter in a heartbeat, since it allows > them to focus on the problem at hand, rather than the language. > > Again, you're being elitist, especially considering you've never coded > up anything significant in Java. Well, that's an invalid assumption; but in any case, as far as your anecdotal experience, different strokes for different folks... > > Instance but unconstructed objects are inherently bad. > > Because? Static classes are a necessary evil (IMO), and is what makes > the Java language useful, vs. a nice CS solution. (In theory, one never > needs unconstructed objects, but in practice things are very different.) > > The use of static classes are what makes the language able to handle > most of design patterns in a simple manner. Ugh. There are better ways; Java just doesn't support them. > > I've implemented the majority of the Java 1.2 and JavaX 1.2 > > classes, as well as the JavaMail API in C++. > > I actually re-implemented parts of the JavaMail API in Perl once, and it > was pretty trivial. I wouldn't call it a 'significant' programming > challenge to re-implement the classes. > > What I find interesting is that you didn't choose a C++ class as the > basic for implementing the API. Also, what JavaX extensions did you > implement? There are about a zillion of them. Yeah, I know. I ended up with over 22,000 lines of code, with the Sun ones necessary for the support of the JavaMail API (I already said it was 1.2). I did start with a C++ class as the basis for the API; it just happened to follow the pattern of a Java class. If Sun spent millions upon millions of dollars doing the research, I might as well use their published information (which I'm allowed to do, without a license problem ...8-)). In the process, I found that unconstructed classes were essentially impossible to duplicate in C++, and that they were a "necessary evil" which wasn't really necessary, if you had explicit scoping available, instead of having to rely on implicit scoping instead. > > I've also done not an inconsiderable amount of work in Rational Rose > > with "plain old Java". > > RR is not a Java product, IMO. Claiming to be a Java programmer because > you used RR is like saying you're a Basic programmer because you made a > nice QUI in V-Basic. I said *with*, not *generationg*; code generators are pretty much fun for rapid prototyping, but not useful for real code. > > I think that historically, we will find that Java will end up > > being a compiled language, and will serve predominantly as a > > cross platform API. > > That's your call to make. I don't see it happening, as there still > isn't a single usable compiler for Java. (The closest one to being > usable is TowerJ, but it leaves out all of the AWT/Swing/GUI classes, > making it less than useful.) Yeah; that's really annoying, since one of the most useful things you can do with Java is UI work, since it's not really performance sensitive, since it hooks humans to computers, and humans aren't well known for running at high clock rates. 8-). The reason I say that it's probably going to fall into the cross-platform API crack is that it has so far failed pretty badly to deliver the "write once, run everywhere" promise. > > This is, I think, the reason that Microsoft targeted it for > > the "embrace and extend" treatment. > > Java on M$ is a dead product. It is now. At one time, Microsoft intended to tie it to a lot of JNI code that was written for Windows, but not for other platforms. IE's Java GIF renderer (for example) was via a JNI, rather than interpreted, like the one in Netscape (this is why, unless you serialize image loads, mvong the mouse in a Java UI on FreeBSD Netscape prior to a complete download will crash the browser). Like it or not, most useful platforms for Java code are Microsoft platforms, even if Microsoft itself isn't doing the JVM support themselves any more. > > The inability to apply a decent optimizer to JIT'ed code is > > just the icing on the cake. > > Actually, you haven't done much lately, since the new JIT's are quite > usable. (However, I've found that I can get close to native speed by > optimizing my Java code, which is *infinitely* easier to do in Java than > in any other language since the tools have access to a much larger THis is about the same state of the art as C in the early 1990's, where the source code you wrote had a big effect on how fast the resulting code would run. Modern optimizers have laid some, but not all, of that to rest, these days. I was thinking specifically about peephole optimization and long loop unrolling, which are pretty easy without a JIT. The code for predictive branching (e.g. on Alpha and Itanium) is also not somethin that is commonly done for JIT'ed code, Java or otherwise. > > FWIW: dynamic scoping is cool; but garbage collection is not > > something one can afford, when designing an embedded system. > > Blanket statements like that prove that you are being elitist. You > really should get out more often Terry. The problem with GC's is that they always run at the most inopportune time (not elitism: just bowing to Murphey), and your memory profile is not precommited or deterministic, unless all your inputs are deterministic. So for some subset of problems you can use it, but it really limits the utility of the language. Needing to pay Sun half a million and per unit royalties isn't helping the language out any, either... > We attempted to use Kaffe for our Java product, and kept giving up in > disgust. The final straw was when M$ bought the primary Kaffe > developers off which effectively killed the product. The basic Sun JVM > w/out a JIT out-performed Kaffe with a JIT, because of bugs and > non-support for many of the Java 1.1 features, and some bugs in the Java > 1.0 support. Don't compare Java using Kaffe with Java performance. > (And, I understand that cost was the primary reason that Whistle chose > Kaffe vs. Sun's JVM, but it's still unfair to imply that using Kaffe for > your JVM is a fair comparison to how Java performs.) Not really; the primary reason was that the memory footprint was much, much smaller. That's also why the Almaden researchers chose to use Kaffe for their project, even though they had ready access to IBM's JVM, and Sun's JVM, through IBM's licensing of it. > > That said, the overhead of using Java was _significant_, and > > one of the things we had to do (add a more powerful CPU and > > more RAM) pushed in a number of undesirable attributes, as > > wll, including, but not limited to, the addition of moving > > parts to the product (fans) to dissipate the increased heat > > from the increased hardware bulk required. > > *laugh* You are entertaining, if nothing else Terry. I can give you > counter-proposals about how a Java implemented solution used *LESS* CPU > and RAM than a functionally equal C++ application. Must be really badly written C++ code... 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 0:29:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F6937B406; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.195] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yqkb-0007DJ-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:29:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDFB69C.FF3126A6@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:30:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Robert Clark , John Baldwin , Jordan Hubbard , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nate Williams Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <20011030081253.D36195@darkstar.gte.net> <15326.55225.430968.40694@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > Robert Clark types: > > I'm curious, have any of you tried python? What are your opinions? > > I write in it regularly. It manages to be terse without being > unreadable. Some people are really put off by whitespace being > significant. If that puts you off and you want a more C-like syntax, > you might take a look at ruby. Heh. We've finally found a language that has built in Brucification... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 0:32:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFCC37B405; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:32:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.195] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yqnR-0000LS-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:32:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDFB74D.4EBD3145@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:33:17 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <3BDED411.DDEA0BD7@mindspring.com> <15326.55441.615206.243327@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > > > > Java has several problems: > > > > > > I still prefer it to C++'s problems. :) > > > > These all devolve into programmer issues. They are no worse > > than the requirement to use prototypes or the "volatile" > > keyword, which were added to C. > > You don't *have* to use volatile in C, and the addition of the volatile > keyword came out of C++ work. We can blame it on C++. (I have a friend > on the C++ standards committee, and we love to give him grief about what > a joke the language is.) Actually, there are situations where you _must_ use volatile to prevent register optimization of variables. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 0:51:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6533B37B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.195] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yr5h-0001Pm-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:51:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDFBBB8.EE7E9482@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:52:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chad David Cc: Nate Williams , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> <20011030110629.A3499@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chad David wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 08:18:36AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Nate Williams wrote: > > > > Java has several problems: > > > > > > > > 1) It can't do multiple inheritance > > > > > > This is certainly not a problem. This is a good thing, and one of the > > > strengths of Java. It doesn't bring in all of the *crap* that C++ does. > > > In any case, you can perform almost all of the same functionality using > > > interfaces, in a much cleaner fashion. I've yet to find a good example > > > of multiple inheritance that couldn't also be done in a simpler fashion > > > using Java + inheritance. > > > > I've run into several instances where I needed to marshall > > objects from a local node to a remote node, and then reinstance > > them, without explicitly knowing anything other than that they > > inherit from a particular class, and then later marshall them > > again (either back or elsewhere). > > What does this have to do with multiple inheritance? Every > major java server I've every written did exactly this, and > a base class being a constant is a must. I don't see how > multiple inheritance would change this. Nate suggested using interfaces in place of multiple inheritance. If I do that, then the backing object is opaque, which it can't be, if I need to marshall it. > > I've also seen a number of design patterns that could not > > be used without a bridge pattern because of the lack of > > multiple inheritance (i.e. instead of doing an overlay of > > the common parts of two or more patterns, you had to use > > reflection to make the common parts act common, even though > > they weren't actually common). > > Could you give a more concrete example of what you are > talking about. If you are arguing that using reflection > is not pure then I might agree (if you have a better way). Yes; specifically, in the case where both ends of the relationship have a cardinality > 1. 8-p. > Also, I've observed the exact opposite, you need reflection > to stop the common parts from acting common, ie. in order to > cast the base class to its real type. My problem is when the real type is unknown to an intermediary. For the Java Mail API, think "MIME Type". > Have you ever taken a look at SableCC? They make very > effective use of interfaces without every using reflection > or multiple inheritance. I've played with this, and with the stuff that Warner Losh used to work on way back when, when Motif was theoretically not dictating API, but only "look and feel". I'd argue that it's a bit contrived. > > Java is really "dumbed down" in order to make it safe for > > people who aren't very meticulous about their coding. > > I think this is a very easy statement to make without > actually giving the language any of its due credit. I > spent four indepth years with java, and while I do not > miss it, I do have a respect for it in its place. > > Come to think of it, C is really "dumbed down" in order > to make it safe for people who aren't very meticulous > about their [assembly] coding. :). Sure. That's a true statement as well. I'm willing to have my personal favorite language tarred with the same brush, if it's rightous. 8-). The thing that annoys me with Java is that I either have to work around the limitation with a lot of code, or I have to drop down to a JNI to another language. Most of my examples of this are code I don't have access to any more, but they are all almost invariably tied to the language needing to be able to be run as interpreted byte code (and everyone has seen my diatrives on interpreted languages like Perl, so I don't need to repeat them). > > Instance but unconstructed objects are inherently bad. > > Again could you give an example. I don't really understand > what you mean. I am unaware of any way of creating an object > without invoking one of a classes constructors. The Serialization > classes do it via a native method (since a class may not have > a predictable constructor signature). You need to read the JavaMail API. The problem is that you can construct unitialized objects, which are then indistinguishable from initialized objects (except that they don't work, if you forget that they're not initialized, so you can't treat them as opaque members without dealing with the "if not initialized" in a lot more places than you really want to). > > I think that historically, we will find that Java will end up > > being a compiled language, and will serve predominantly as a > > cross platform API. > > I would like to see an Objective C like implementation > for java, but I fear some of the language and class > interation design decisions may make that very difficult > to actually acheive. Actually, I like Java far more than I like Objective C, and I saw Objective C back when the first NeXT cubes were coming out, and liked it somewhat then. > > FWIW: dynamic scoping is cool; but garbage collection is not > > something one can afford, when designing an embedded system. > > Have you ever worked with the Real-Time Specification? > I do not know anybody who has... I've seen it (there are some nice things about being inside IBM's firewall that I dearly miss); it didn't really impress me very much, but that was just an appraisal without having to code in the environment, so I can't tell you if it would magically make things better. 8-). > I agree entirely that the size and speed of java is its > weakest point. The memory footprint of two or three > jvm's on a server is just stupid, and GUI's are way > to slow... makes me want to go back to win32. I actually _like_ the GUI code; takes all kinds, I guess. 8-). The footprint problem is annoying; you really need the concept of a single JVM with multiple processes in seperate protection domains. I haven't seen anything, other than the hadware Java machines (non-virtual) that could approach this. I'd also feel real silly, carrying around my Java machine hardware on a ring, like some nerd version of The Green Lantern. 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 0:52:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5257E37B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.195] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yr6q-0001pj-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:52:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3BDFBBFF.A63BE076@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:53:19 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030111010.0512bb20@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 02:11 AM 10/30/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >3) Strong typing is for weak minds > > So, then, are guards on power tools, ground fault protectors on > electrical outlets, and seat belts on cars.... And when someone dies from their stupidity, instead of being protected from it, average human intelligence goes up... What was your point again? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 0:56: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E7E37B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9V8tE963135; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:55:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Brett Glass , John Baldwin , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:53:19 PST." <3BDFBBFF.A63BE076@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:55:14 +0100 Message-ID: <63133.1004518514@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <3BDFBBFF.A63BE076@mindspring.com>, Terry Lambert writes: >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> At 02:11 AM 10/30/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> >3) Strong typing is for weak minds >> >> So, then, are guards on power tools, ground fault protectors on >> electrical outlets, and seat belts on cars.... > >And when someone dies from their stupidity, instead of being >protected from it, average human intelligence goes up... For once I have to register agreement with Terry, there are compelling reasons not to disable Darwins Principle for humans. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 2:36:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CBAE37B401 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:36:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9VAajl22934 ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:36:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA19778 ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:36:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:36:44 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux VM : forky? Message-ID: <20011031113644.A19189@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Giorgos Keramidas , Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011030012025.49292.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <20011030051923.A36388@hades.hell.gr> <20011030102804.B60885@lpt.ens.fr> <20011030160736.B41047@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011030160736.B41047@hades.hell.gr>; from charon@labs.gr on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 04:07:37PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas said on Oct 30, 2001 at 16:07:37: > > Of course you do understand that patching the kernel, and making it > different than the one which has been tested with the particular > release, is something akin to kernel hacking, since you are no longer > using the `official' kernel of your distribution. If bad things > happen with a kernel like this, but not with the kernel your > distribution's latest release came with, you can't blame Linux :P That statement seems to imply that the linux kernel *has* forked, with the number of forks = the number of distributions. However, the incompatibility is not as bad as you suggest. I've replaced the stock kernel in Red Hat several times: in fact the machines started off with RH 5.0 and kernel 2.0.x, and I upgraded rpms individually as time went by and upgraded the kernel to 2.2.x, and the machine remained pretty stable (uptime generally > 100 days, downtime basically due to power problems). I wasn't talking about bad things happening with new kernels: I was talking about the difficulty of applying two different patches (say, one for pre-emption, one for some improved device driver) from two different sources. Even if both were generated against the same vanilla Linus kernel, they may still have conflicts with each other. In that sense I think linux right now is more like -current than -stable, even though it's even-numbered and supposedly stable. That article makes the problem clear: 2.4.x, despite being a "stable" release, had a VM which was not good enough. That had to be fixed and that meant big changes. The author seems satisfied with AA's VM, now. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 4:37:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pelissero.org (dyn114-32.sftm-212-159.plus.net [212.159.32.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21AD37B405; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 04:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id f9VCaPE30330; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:36:25 GMT (envelope-from wcp) From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:36:25 +0000 To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: NatWest? no thanks X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mostly relevant to people living in UK: http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 7: 8:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F7137B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id A6AFF17BE7; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:08:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032BE15D08; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:08:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:08:38 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nate Williams , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BDFB74D.4EBD3145@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Nate Williams wrote: > > > > You don't *have* to use volatile in C, and the addition of the volatile > > keyword came out of C++ work. We can blame it on C++. (I have a friend > > on the C++ standards committee, and we love to give him grief about what > > a joke the language is.) > > Actually, there are situations where you _must_ use volatile > to prevent register optimization of variables. > That's a compiler problem, not a language feature. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 7:52:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CE937B405 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15yxf2-000MO8-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:52:12 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f9VFqCV31287 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:52:12 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:52:12 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The Scylla (pat. pending) and Charibdes.NET Message-ID: <20011031155211.B31030@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, rats. I have been supporting Barnes and Noble because of the patent issue with Amazon. But now I read that Amazon is using Linux and saving money compared to Unix and (possibly) MS. And BN is using .NET in its backend for order fulfillment. I hate to support amazon, with the patent issue, but i also hate to support a .net early adopter. Yes, i realize i'm being petty, but this *is* -chat, after all. :-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 8: 4: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89CC37B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23409; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:03:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031090246.042b90f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:03:40 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 Cc: John Baldwin , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard In-Reply-To: <3BDFBBFF.A63BE076@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030111010.0512bb20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:53 AM 10/31/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >> At 02:11 AM 10/30/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> >3) Strong typing is for weak minds >> >> So, then, are guards on power tools, ground fault protectors on >> electrical outlets, and seat belts on cars.... > >And when someone dies from their stupidity, instead of being >protected from it, average human intelligence goes up... So the intelligent should kill the less intelligent? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 8:22: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9AB37B410; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23688; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:21:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:21:39 -0700 To: walter@pelissero.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Walter: Install an ad-blocking proxy such as WebWasher (http://www.webwasher.com/). Most of these can be set to replace your browser's user agent string with whatever you specify. --Brett At 05:36 AM 10/31/2001, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: >Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html > >-- >walter pelissero >http://www.pelissero.org > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 8:35:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spitfire.velocet.net (spitfire.velocet.net [216.138.223.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B92B37B401 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (H112.C233.tor.velocet.net [216.138.233.112]) by spitfire.velocet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 038A744A94C for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:35:33 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: David To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Afganistan Article Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:32:33 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20011031163533.038A744A94C@spitfire.velocet.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've come across this article with some thoughts on the Afganistan situation, and considering some of the threads recently, thought it might be of some interest too some. Please be wary of the top photo on entering, ( not a porn pic) David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 8:37:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spitfire.velocet.net (spitfire.velocet.net [216.138.223.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA1637B40F for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (H112.C233.tor.velocet.net [216.138.233.112]) by spitfire.velocet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D3D844A9EE for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:37:42 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: David To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Afganistan Article Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:34:42 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20011031163742.6D3D844A9EE@spitfire.velocet.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hm, maybe i will even include the link, sorry: http://msanews.mynet.net/Scholars/Boyle/nowar.html Like i mentioned previously, please be wary of the top photo ( not a porn pic) On Wednesday 31 October 2001 11:32, David wrote: > I've come across this article with some thoughts on the Afganistan > situation, and considering some of the threads recently, thought it > might be of some interest too some. > > Please be wary of the top photo on entering, ( not a porn pic) > > David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 8:49:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BBAF37B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14347; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:49:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9VGnH914254; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:49:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15328.11148.994822.484027@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:49:16 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Nate Williams , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BDFB624.D85F5352@mindspring.com> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> <15326.55082.743110.502241@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDFB624.D85F5352@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I've run into several instances where I needed to marshall > > > objects from a local node to a remote node, and then reinstance > > > them, without explicitly knowing anything other than that they > > > inherit from a particular class, and then later marshall them > > > again (either back or elsewhere). > > > > Using interfaces + Serialization, this is trivial, as well as much > > cleaner than in C++, IMO. I did this all the time in my last Java > > application. > > It doesn't work if the object whose interface you are exporting > is opaque to where you are exporting it... it's very hard to > reinstance an object for which you don't know the class. Well, duh? > In C++, I can actually pass such an object through a third party, > but with Java, it's practically impossible, without the third > party knowing the object layout. Not true. You can still do a pass thru using reflection/serialization. > See the Sun draft RFC on the > serialization of Java objects into LDAP directories: the objects > can't be active in the directories (e.g. for adding new attribute > types) because of this. If they're active, then the complete knowledge needs to be known. So, either the object is know, or it's not. (C++ has this problem as well, so things are the same for both languages.) > > > Instance but unconstructed objects are inherently bad. > > > > Because? Static classes are a necessary evil (IMO), and is what makes > > the Java language useful, vs. a nice CS solution. (In theory, one never > > needs unconstructed objects, but in practice things are very different.) > > > > The use of static classes are what makes the language able to handle > > most of design patterns in a simple manner. > > Ugh. There are better ways; Java just doesn't support them. Subjective/elitist attitude. > > > I've implemented the majority of the Java 1.2 and JavaX 1.2 > > > classes, as well as the JavaMail API in C++. > > > > I actually re-implemented parts of the JavaMail API in Perl once, and it > > was pretty trivial. I wouldn't call it a 'significant' programming > > challenge to re-implement the classes. > > > > What I find interesting is that you didn't choose a C++ class as the > > basic for implementing the API. Also, what JavaX extensions did you > > implement? There are about a zillion of them. > > Yeah, I know. I ended up with over 22,000 lines of code, with > the Sun ones necessary for the support of the JavaMail API (I > already said it was 1.2). Wow, that's alot of codes for such a simple API (IMO). > I did start with a C++ class as the basis for the API; it just > happened to follow the pattern of a Java class. If Sun spent > millions upon millions of dollars doing the research, I might > as well use their published information (which I'm allowed to > do, without a license problem ...8-)). > > In the process, I found that unconstructed classes were essentially > impossible to duplicate in C++, and that they were a "necessary > evil" which wasn't really necessary, if you had explicit scoping > available, instead of having to rely on implicit scoping instead. They are trivial to implement in *any*1 language as a non-class. Consider them C classes, which is how Sun describes them. They bundle them into a class only to keep them together. > > > The inability to apply a decent optimizer to JIT'ed code is > > > just the icing on the cake. > > > > Actually, you haven't done much lately, since the new JIT's are quite > > usable. (However, I've found that I can get close to native speed by > > optimizing my Java code, which is *infinitely* easier to do in Java than > > in any other language since the tools have access to a much larger > > THis is about the same state of the art as C in the early 1990's, > where the source code you wrote had a big effect on how fast the > resulting code would run. Modern optimizers have laid some, but > not all, of that to rest, these days. I disagree completely, as you can well imagine. You still must optimize the code to get decent speeds (of course, using Knuth's ideas, code first, optimize later). > I was thinking specifically about peephole optimization and long > loop unrolling, which are pretty easy without a JIT. The code > for predictive branching (e.g. on Alpha and Itanium) is also not > somethin that is commonly done for JIT'ed code, Java or otherwise. Not true. The Compaq JVM did alot of optimization, as well as the optimization on the HP platform are completely state of the art, better than most compilers. > > > FWIW: dynamic scoping is cool; but garbage collection is not > > > something one can afford, when designing an embedded system. > > > > Blanket statements like that prove that you are being elitist. You > > really should get out more often Terry. > > The problem with GC's is that they always run at the most > inopportune time (not elitism: just bowing to Murphey), and > your memory profile is not precommited or deterministic, > unless all your inputs are deterministic. So for some subset > of problems you can use it, but it really limits the utility > of the language. Not necessarily. Many of the new JVM's (as well as older ones) allow you to tune the GC setup to be 'more' deterministic, but not completely deterministic. We took advantage of this fact to help out our application not use as much memory. > Needing to pay Sun half a million and per unit royalties isn't > helping the language out any, either... That's changing (or so I've heard). > > We attempted to use Kaffe for our Java product, and kept giving up in > > disgust. The final straw was when M$ bought the primary Kaffe > > developers off which effectively killed the product. The basic Sun JVM > > w/out a JIT out-performed Kaffe with a JIT, because of bugs and > > non-support for many of the Java 1.1 features, and some bugs in the Java > > 1.0 support. Don't compare Java using Kaffe with Java performance. > > (And, I understand that cost was the primary reason that Whistle chose > > Kaffe vs. Sun's JVM, but it's still unfair to imply that using Kaffe for > > your JVM is a fair comparison to how Java performs.) > > Not really; the primary reason was that the memory footprint > was much, much smaller. If you want a smaller memory footprint, then you the original JDK1.0 code. It's at least an order of magnitude less (which is why Kaffe was using a smaller footprint, since it didn't support the 1.1 features). > That's also why the Almaden researchers > chose to use Kaffe for their project, even though they had ready > access to IBM's JVM, and Sun's JVM, through IBM's licensing of it. That happened later, as I understand things. The researchers didn't have access to the code at the time, so momentum kept them using Kaffe, despite all it's shortcomings. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 8:50:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6AB37B408; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:50:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14402; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:50:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9VGo2N14277; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:50:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15328.11194.623723.611472@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:50:02 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Nate Williams , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BDFB74D.4EBD3145@mindspring.com> References: <3BDED411.DDEA0BD7@mindspring.com> <15326.55441.615206.243327@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDFB74D.4EBD3145@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > > Java has several problems: > > > > > > > > I still prefer it to C++'s problems. :) > > > > > > These all devolve into programmer issues. They are no worse > > > than the requirement to use prototypes or the "volatile" > > > keyword, which were added to C. > > > > You don't *have* to use volatile in C, and the addition of the volatile > > keyword came out of C++ work. We can blame it on C++. (I have a friend > > on the C++ standards committee, and we love to give him grief about what > > a joke the language is.) > > Actually, there are situations where you _must_ use volatile > to prevent register optimization of variables. Only during OS type work, which most of the programmers never need to worry about. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 8:56:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0653C37B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14665; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:56:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9VGuid14320; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:56:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15328.11596.96289.16985@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:56:44 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Chad David , Nate Williams , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BDFBBB8.EE7E9482@mindspring.com> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> <20011030110629.A3499@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <3BDFBBB8.EE7E9482@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Instance but unconstructed objects are inherently bad. > > > > Again could you give an example. I don't really understand > > what you mean. I am unaware of any way of creating an object > > without invoking one of a classes constructors. The Serialization > > classes do it via a native method (since a class may not have > > a predictable constructor signature). > > You need to read the JavaMail API. The problem is that you > can construct unitialized objects, which are then indistinguishable > from initialized objects (except that they don't work, if you > forget that they're not initialized, so you can't treat them as > opaque members without dealing with the "if not initialized" in a > lot more places than you really want to). In Java, you can not construct uninitialized objects. You can do call methods on objects, but these methods are 'static' methods, whose only purpose is to allow you call methods that don't require an object to work. A good example of this in Math.sin(), which doesn't require any object instantiated in order to perform the operation. If you have classes that are not fully initialized, then it's an implementation issue, which can be done just as easily (or badly) in C++ as it can be done in Java. > > > FWIW: dynamic scoping is cool; but garbage collection is not > > > something one can afford, when designing an embedded system. > > > > Have you ever worked with the Real-Time Specification? > > I do not know anybody who has... > > I've seen it (there are some nice things about being inside > IBM's firewall that I dearly miss); it didn't really impress > me very much, but that was just an appraisal without having > to code in the environment, so I can't tell you if it would > magically make things better. 8-). The non-SUN Real-Time spec. had some good things. This was the specification done by HP and M$, which I think was being driven by HP. It's been awhile since I looked at it, though they dealt with things such as memory footprint, response times, etc.. > > I agree entirely that the size and speed of java is its > > weakest point. The memory footprint of two or three > > jvm's on a server is just stupid, and GUI's are way > > to slow... makes me want to go back to win32. > > I actually _like_ the GUI code; takes all kinds, I guess. 8-). Our latest foray into Win32 + MFC has shown that Java is actually *significantly* faster. (We have two applications, the Java one, and the win32/MFC application. The Java app runs circles around the win32 app that implements the same functionality. We dropped the Java development because it didn't have a 'Windows Look and Feel'.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 9:28: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pelissero.org (dyn142-37.sftm-212-159.plus.net [212.159.37.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9453C37B405; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id f9VHQrU35353; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:26:53 GMT (envelope-from wcp) From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:26:51 +0000 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > Install an ad-blocking proxy such as WebWasher (http://www.webwasher.com/). > Most of these can be set to replace your browser's user agent string with > whatever you specify. Are suggesting that I should disguise myself to access a service I pay for? Sounds like freedom of choice is all right as long as you practice it undercover. I know there are plenty of http filters (not necessarily expensive ones) that would let me sneak through the fascist bank's compatibility checks. I could even use Internet Explorer from within a VMWare emulator. That's not the point. I just dont' want to support an obvious political discrimination not supported by any practical or technical fact. BTW, how would an http filter serve you when you visit, say, a download page that chooses the right link to follow according to the OS you are running? Or are suggesting to configure Netscape to switch proxy only when I have to access my bank? -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 9:38:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196BA37B408; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.137.200.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.137.200] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yzJy-0003LM-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:38:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE0374C.57ADE54@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:39:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Scheidt Cc: Nate Williams , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > > Actually, there are situations where you _must_ use volatile > > to prevent register optimization of variables. > > That's a compiler problem, not a language feature. I guess you weren't hanging out in comp.lang.c back in the very early 1990's, when we discussed this to death, and I came down against ANSI C, everyone jumped down my throat, and Dennis Ritchie himself came down on my side of the argument (it is totally cool to have something like that happen). Here is a pointer to a copy of the posting (article 7844): http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/dmr-on-noalias.html And here is what he says about "volatile": `Volatile', in particular, is a frill for esoteric applications, and much better expressed by other means. Its chief virtue is that nearly everyone can forget about it. Here's an esoteric application: static int exit_at_earliest_convenience = 0; sighandler() { exit_at_earliest_convenience = 1; } ... somefunction() { if (exit_at_earliest_convenience) exit(1); ... if (exit_at_earliest_convenience) exit(3); ... for( i =0; i < 5 && exit_at_earliest_convenience == 0; i++) { ... } ... } The compiler is perfectly _allowed_ by X3J11 (ANSI C) to assume that the value of "exit_at_earliest_convenience" will not change as the result of an asyncronous event, and promote it to a register. This means that when the async event happens, it doesn't matter that the value in memory will change, since the value in the register has not, and therefore the loop will not exit as a result of getting the signal. There are other examples, but this one is one of the easiest. If you manually unroll the loop into an assignment, a "goto" lablel, an "if" test", and an "i++;" followed by a "goto", the problem goes away, because the reason for the promotion goes away. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 9:42:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from runcirc.demon.co.uk (runcirc.demon.co.uk [158.152.9.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D8037B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roger@localhost) by runcirc.demon.co.uk (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f9VHg7e04226; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:42:07 GMT Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:42:07 +0000 From: Roger McCalman To: Brett Glass Cc: walter@pelissero.org, chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011031174206.D3104@runcirc.local> References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 09:21:39AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 09:21:39AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Walter: > > Install an ad-blocking proxy such as WebWasher (http://www.webwasher.com/). > Most of these can be set to replace your browser's user agent string with > whatever you specify. It still does'nt change the JavaScript that the browser executes that determines if you can see the pages or not. Cheers, Roger To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 9:57:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590DA37B40A for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:57:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA61908; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:57:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:57:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031090246.042b90f0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > So the intelligent should kill the less intelligent? And eat them too, if they're not too sickly. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | For Great Justice! | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 9:58:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8B837B408; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.137.200.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.137.200] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yzdJ-0001pR-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:58:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE03BC2.69DC9B29@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:58:26 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011030111010.0512bb20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031090246.042b90f0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >> >3) Strong typing is for weak minds > >> > >> So, then, are guards on power tools, ground fault protectors on > >> electrical outlets, and seat belts on cars.... > > > >And when someone dies from their stupidity, instead of being > >protected from it, average human intelligence goes up... > > So the intelligent should kill the less intelligent? Only if they're smart. 8-). Actually, doing that would leave another problem: the bodies. It's not like you can eat them to get rid of the remains, since, after all, you are what you eat. 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 10:10:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF63837B405; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.137.200.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.137.200] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yzom-0000nO-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:10:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE03EA2.63A5EFBF@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:10:42 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> <15326.55082.743110.502241@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDFB624.D85F5352@mindspring.com> <15328.11148.994822.484027@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: [ ... lot's of pro-Java stuff to counter my pro-C++ stuff ... ] > > Yeah, I know. I ended up with over 22,000 lines of code, with > > the Sun ones necessary for the support of the JavaMail API (I > > already said it was 1.2). > > Wow, that's alot of codes for such a simple API (IMO). No really; I commented my code incredibly well, and I also include my implementation of the fetchmail replacement that it was intended to support in the total line count. The resulting code needed to run in under an 16M footprint, and Kaffe was just too large at the time (and has only gotten larger) in its per instance cost. > > Needing to pay Sun half a million and per unit royalties isn't > > helping the language out any, either... > > That's changing (or so I've heard). Maybe I will retry it, when it becomes available for FreeBSD, or I'm once again hired to do Java code. > > That's also why the Almaden researchers > > chose to use Kaffe for their project, even though they had ready > > access to IBM's JVM, and Sun's JVM, through IBM's licensing of it. > > That happened later, as I understand things. The researchers didn't > have access to the code at the time, so momentum kept them using Kaffe, > despite all it's shortcomings. Not according to the Almaden guys, when they came to visit the conference room at Whistle (IBM, after the acquisition) in Foster City... unfortunately, I can't give you project details, since it was never announced (to my knowledge). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 10:12: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5065737B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.137.200.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.137.200] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yzqC-0002jm-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:11:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE03EFD.8269DA73@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:12:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <3BDED411.DDEA0BD7@mindspring.com> <15326.55441.615206.243327@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDFB74D.4EBD3145@mindspring.com> <15328.11194.623723.611472@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > Actually, there are situations where you _must_ use volatile > > to prevent register optimization of variables. > > Only during OS type work, which most of the programmers never need to > worry about. Signal handlers. IPC via shared memory. Threads. ...lot of places where the optimizer wants to jam things in a register when you use loop control structures... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 10:17:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E022D37B406; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.137.200.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.137.200] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15yzvR-0003uV-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:17:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE04036.D32ADF9@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:17:26 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Chad David , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> <20011030110629.A3499@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <3BDFBBB8.EE7E9482@mindspring.com> <15328.11596.96289.16985@caddis.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > In Java, you can not construct uninitialized objects. You can do call > methods on objects, but these methods are 'static' methods, whose only > purpose is to allow you call methods that don't require an object to > work. > > A good example of this in Math.sin(), which doesn't require any object > instantiated in order to perform the operation. > > If you have classes that are not fully initialized, then it's an > implementation issue, which can be done just as easily (or badly) in C++ > as it can be done in Java. You've just made my point for me. 8-). The language is supposed to be so much better than C++ because it protects you from the errors you can make in C++... > > I actually _like_ the GUI code; takes all kinds, I guess. 8-). > > Our latest foray into Win32 + MFC has shown that Java is actually > *significantly* faster. (We have two applications, the Java one, and > the win32/MFC application. The Java app runs circles around the win32 > app that implements the same functionality. We dropped the Java > development because it didn't have a 'Windows Look and Feel'.) Yes, that's very annoying, particularly since Microsoft takes great pains to publish style guides that, if followed, make your application totally indistinguishable from any other Microsoft application. But of course, the marketing people absolutely hate that... they want the UI that looks like a cell phone on the screen, and which users can't use naturally by transferring the training they've had to the new app... 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 10:22: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFAC37B405; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18041; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:21:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9VILsX14860; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:21:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15328.16705.512452.136986@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:21:53 -0700 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Nate Williams , Chad David , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: <3BE04036.D32ADF9@mindspring.com> References: <3BDE6ED3.64DC027E@mindspring.com> <15326.50508.909158.688936@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BDED2DC.A04B6822@mindspring.com> <20011030110629.A3499@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <3BDFBBB8.EE7E9482@mindspring.com> <15328.11596.96289.16985@caddis.yogotech.com> <3BE04036.D32ADF9@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In Java, you can not construct uninitialized objects. You can do call > > methods on objects, but these methods are 'static' methods, whose only > > purpose is to allow you call methods that don't require an object to > > work. > > > > A good example of this in Math.sin(), which doesn't require any object > > instantiated in order to perform the operation. > > > > If you have classes that are not fully initialized, then it's an > > implementation issue, which can be done just as easily (or badly) in C++ > > as it can be done in Java. > > You've just made my point for me. 8-). The language is supposed > to be so much better than C++ because it protects you from the > errors you can make in C++... There's no way to keep people from doing stupid things if you want them to do clever things. If you want a completely safe language, try Logo. :) You can't do anything with it, but it's also safe. > > > I actually _like_ the GUI code; takes all kinds, I guess. 8-). > > > > Our latest foray into Win32 + MFC has shown that Java is actually > > *significantly* faster. (We have two applications, the Java one, and > > the win32/MFC application. The Java app runs circles around the win32 > > app that implements the same functionality. We dropped the Java > > development because it didn't have a 'Windows Look and Feel'.) > > Yes, that's very annoying, particularly since Microsoft takes > great pains to publish style guides that, if followed, make > your application totally indistinguishable from any other > Microsoft application. But of course, the marketing people > absolutely hate that... they want the UI that looks like a cell > phone on the screen, and which users can't use naturally by > transferring the training they've had to the new app... 8-). Actually, our marketing folks are the ones who wanted the Windows L&F and killed the Java app. (And, just because I work for Nokia doesn't imply that the only products we have are related to cell phones. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 11: 5:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CE737B408 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRANKENFURTER (user-112vp95.biz.mindspring.com [66.47.229.37]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06991; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:04:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:10:07 -0800 From: Brian Sobolak X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Brian Sobolak X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <196141366504.20011031111007@mindspring.com> To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Scylla (pat. pending) and Charibdes.NET In-Reply-To: <20011031155211.B31030@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011031155211.B31030@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello j, Wednesday, October 31, 2001, 7:52:12 AM, you wrote: jm> Well, rats. I have been supporting Barnes and Noble because of the jm> patent issue with Amazon. But now I read that Amazon is using Linux and jm> saving money compared to Unix and (possibly) MS. And BN is using .NET jm> in its backend for order fulfillment. jm> I hate to support amazon, with the patent issue, but i also hate to jm> support a .net early adopter. Why not support your local bookseller instead? brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 11: 5:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B2537B409 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9VJ8gF74710; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:08:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:08:39 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: "Walter C. Pelissero" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011031200839.A74693@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Walter C. Pelissero [Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 12:36:25PM +0000]: > Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html That page contains a serious mistake. They don't want to limit it to Mac and Doze users. They just deny to support NS 4.7, which is prefucked by default. I just manage it to run on Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.5) (I didn't logged in, but the 'portal' page displays), so don't tell that they limit it to Mac & Windows users. Anyway, I'd be careful with that "Mac users". Don't you remember what MacOS X is based on? -- [ Michal Pasternak doc@lublin.t1.pl +48606570000 ] [ sklepy internetowe, bazy danych, programy na zamówienie ] [ . .. ..- .- . .. http://lublin.t1.pl . .-. .--.. . . .- ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 11:38:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204D937B406 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 33B6C7578; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:38:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D08B1D93; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:38:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:38:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brian Sobolak Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Scylla (pat. pending) and Charibdes.NET In-Reply-To: <196141366504.20011031111007@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Brian Sobolak wrote: :Hello j, : :Wednesday, October 31, 2001, 7:52:12 AM, you wrote: : : :jm> Well, rats. I have been supporting Barnes and Noble because of the :jm> patent issue with Amazon. But now I read that Amazon is using Linux and :jm> saving money compared to Unix and (possibly) MS. And BN is using .NET :jm> in its backend for order fulfillment. : :jm> I hate to support amazon, with the patent issue, but i also hate to :jm> support a .net early adopter. : :Why not support your local bookseller instead? Because paying more for a smaller selection is right up there on the list of stupid things to do with your time. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 11:44:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025E337B406; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:44:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9VJhDf41693; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:43:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: Brett Glass Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, John Baldwin , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: time_t not to change size on x86 In-Reply-To: Message from Brett Glass of "Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:03:40 MST." <4.3.2.7.2.20011031090246.042b90f0@localhost> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:43:13 -0800 Message-ID: <41690.1004557393@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So the intelligent should kill the less intelligent? It's certainly a frequent temptation. I guess they're just lucky we're too intelligent to give in to that impulse. For now. ;) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 12:11:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5382D37B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-216.wobline.de [212.68.69.227]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id f9VKB8N06603; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:11:08 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9VKDK719001; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:13:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9VKAYS00750; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:11:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:10:34 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: "Walter C. Pelissero" Cc: Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Message-ID: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: > I know there are plenty of http filters (not necessarily expensive > ones) that would let me sneak through the fascist bank's compatibility > checks. I could even use Internet Explorer from within a VMWare > emulator. That's not the point. The most annoying point, IMHO, is that what the bank has done is totally unneccessary. Sounds like one of their IT guys had a little too much time, probably he's even a relative of Mr Gates, and so he decided to block "those few" non-Windows users out. Funny, isn't it? Seriously: I have seen a few sites that kept complaining that my browser (either Konqueror 2.2.1 or Mozilla 0.9.5) are not supported, but when I told these browsers to disgusie as something else, I mostly noted that the page displayed without any (or only with minor) problems. When some online shop tells me that they won't work with my browser and that I should install a Microsoft product, GREAT, then I'll simply spend my money somewhere else. I always thought that any website (including the that started this thread) has an interest in being compatible with as many systems as possible, thus being accessible for the broadest range of people. But if some website tells me it's not compatible with what I use, then I'll take that as an invitation to leave and go somewhere else. As a customer, *they* depend on me more than I depend on them, I think... Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 12:44:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EFE37B427 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:44:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9VKhrl87193 ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:43:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA48036 ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:43:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:43:42 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brian Sobolak , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Scylla (pat. pending) and Charibdes.NET Message-ID: <20011031214342.C45932@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Jamie Bowden , Brian Sobolak , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <196141366504.20011031111007@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 11:38:41AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden said on Oct 31, 2001 at 11:38:41: > :Why not support your local bookseller instead? > > Because paying more for a smaller selection is right up there on the list > of stupid things to do with your time. Is it? Depends on how you define "stupid". One can't leaf through a book at Amazon, or read a few pages, or browse an entire bookshelf looking for something that grabs your attention. So if you're so cost conscious, perhaps one can do the browsing at the bookstore and the purchasing at Amazon. Personally, if I like the book that much, I'd rather pay a bit extra and have it right away. Oh, and many booksellers do have catalogues and are willing to order stuff for you. Their selection is not so much worse than Amazon's. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 13: 2:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E176037B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9VL64575805; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:06:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:06:04 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: "Walter C. Pelissero" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011031220604.B75757@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Walter C. Pelissero [Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 12:36:25PM +0000]: > Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html Could you explain me why do you think that topic has something to do with FreeBSD? -- [ Michal Pasternak doc@lublin.t1.pl +48606570000 ] [ sklepy internetowe, bazy danych, programy na zamówienie ] [ . .. ..- .- . .. http://lublin.t1.pl . .-. .--.. . . .- ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 13: 7:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9CA37B406 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 4D67917BE7; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3658D15D08; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:07:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:07:23 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jamie Bowden , Brian Sobolak , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Scylla (pat. pending) and Charibdes.NET In-Reply-To: <20011031214342.C45932@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Jamie Bowden said on Oct 31, 2001 at 11:38:41: > > :Why not support your local bookseller instead? > > > > Because paying more for a smaller selection is right up there on the list > > of stupid things to do with your time. > > Is it? Depends on how you define "stupid". > > One can't leaf through a book at Amazon, or read a few pages, or > browse an entire bookshelf looking for something that grabs your > attention. > > So if you're so cost conscious, perhaps one can do the browsing at the > bookstore and the purchasing at Amazon. Personally, if I like the > book that much, I'd rather pay a bit extra and have it right away. The cost differential isn't that great, either, if you include the cost of shipping. > > Oh, and many booksellers do have catalogues and are willing to order > stuff for you. Their selection is not so much worse than Amazon's. Just about any bookstore can get you any in-print book, usually from their normal suppliers, who are the same ones that Amazon, Borders, and B&N deal with. If your tastes are out of the mainstream, Amazon et al aren't going to have it in stock, either, so it'll take longer for you to get the book. The book has to go from the publisher (or their distributor) to Amazon, to you. A local bookstore orders it from the same distributor, and then call you to come pick it up when it comes in. Saves a day or two. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 13:46:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB8237B405 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:46:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A59AE7578; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BC21D8E; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:47:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:47:13 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brian Sobolak , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Scylla (pat. pending) and Charibdes.NET In-Reply-To: <20011031214342.C45932@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :Jamie Bowden said on Oct 31, 2001 at 11:38:41: :> :Why not support your local bookseller instead? :> Because paying more for a smaller selection is right up there on the list :> of stupid things to do with your time. :Is it? Depends on how you define "stupid". :One can't leaf through a book at Amazon, or read a few pages, or :browse an entire bookshelf looking for something that grabs your :attention. You're correct, which is why I shop at B&N or Borders in person (I have both within 5 minutes of my house). I get a huge selection, better pricing than a one off bookstore can deliver, and if neither has the selection I want, then I'll go online. Like it or not, economies of scale work in your favor. So long as B&N and Borders are separate entities competing for mass market share, we all win. If the mom and pop shops can't compete with them, sorry, but it's not my problem. Personally, I've never ordered a book online. If I can't sit down with it and look over it first, I'm not going to spend money on it. I stopped using B&N for special orders when they started using the website to special order the book in store, expecting me to pay retail plus shipping. They lose; Borders wins. Shame really, as B&N has a nicer layout with better organization than Borders (at least, in the stores in northern bits of .va.us.) Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 13:58:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB0A37B403 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f9VLwAl93436 ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:58:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id WAA50757 ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:58:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:58:10 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brian Sobolak , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Scylla (pat. pending) and Charibdes.NET Message-ID: <20011031225810.A50399@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Jamie Bowden , Brian Sobolak , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011031214342.C45932@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 01:47:13PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden said on Oct 31, 2001 at 13:47:13: > So long as B&N and Borders are separate entities competing for mass market > share, we all win. If the mom and pop shops can't compete with them, > sorry, but it's not my problem. Actually, in India at least, the smaller bookshops know their stuff best: the owner is a genuine book lover and can recognise what you're talking about, get to know your tastes, give you recommendations, and so on. Try that in Borders or B&N. And these places have their dedicated clientele, and sometimes offer *lower* prices than the competition. (There's one which always offers a 20% discount, or more, on the listed price.) > Personally, I've never ordered a book online. I have, several times. But I think bookshops still have their place, especially small ones. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 18:58:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E458937B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BE40D786DE; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:28:50 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:28:50 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Walter C. Pelissero" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101132850.C51633@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org>; from walter@pelissero.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 12:36:25PM +0000 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 31 October 2001 at 12:36:25 +0000, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: > Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html *sigh* Send a written letter to your bank manager, explaining politely that this is a ridiculous requirement. Add a couple of references to the known security holes in Microsoft. Give them two weeks to fix it or you will choose another bank and send the story to the press. I suppose it depends on how much money you have with them as to what their reaction will be, but it could well work. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 19:37:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB19537B403; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA69799; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:37:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:37:29 -0500 (EST) From: To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Gordon Tetlow , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: rc.d patch to test out In-Reply-To: <20011031182709.C94270@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, David O'Brien wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 04:39:51PM -0800, Gordon Tetlow wrote: > > Since O'Brien ... > > *sigh* Is people's grammer gotten this bad in emails these days? *sigh* It sure is bad when people can't even spell *grammar* correctly. > Calling someone by their last name like that is rude and not proper > English grammer. I do not know why everyone here seems to do this to me. Posting this *crap* on -arch is also rude and off charter. If you have a beef with someone incorrectly addressing you that's a private matter. You don't need to berate Gordon in public for something like this. It's childish and does the project a great disservice. Gordon is only trying to help all of us out by doing the work on RCng. ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (816) 464-7780 | Sr. Unix Administrator Work: chris.watson@twa.com | Trans World Airlines, Kansas City, MO Home: scanner@jurai.net | http://www.twa.com ============================================================================= WINDOWS: All our IP belongs to us. GNU/LINUX: Touch our IP, and your IP belongs to us. BSD: Here's our IP, just use it. ============================================================================= irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 20:52: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7190037B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413425503; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:48:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-191.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.191]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AD75005F; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:51:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id DB886331D; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:54:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73A64C1E; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:54:21 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:54:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: David O'Brien Cc: Gordon Tetlow , Subject: Re: rc.d patch to test out In-Reply-To: <20011031182709.C94270@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, David O'Brien wrote: > Calling someone by their last name like that is rude and not proper > English grammer. I do not know why everyone here seems to do this to me. > obrien (my login, another accepted Unixism) For those in the project, or those with unique logins (dg, jkh, etc.) I think that's perhaps a more accurate method of addressing... FWIW, I've run into an interesting situation -- I've been moved to a factory where some gal has the first name of Kirby... /thelamerkris :) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 20:52:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF9637B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE655503; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:48:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-191.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.191]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729C75005F; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:52:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 88CE0331D; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:55:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F4E4C1E; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:55:00 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:55:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Nate Williams Cc: , Gordon Tetlow , Subject: Re: rc.d patch to test out In-Reply-To: <15328.51460.27299.496597@caddis.yogotech.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Nate Williams wrote: > Not where I'm from. It's considered as normal as using someone's first > name, and in other cultures using a first name is actually rude. IIRC, the French do this, no? ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 21:21:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8382637B401; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04512; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:21:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031221826.050fdae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:20:55 -0700 To: walter@pelissero.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011031091956.042b8ca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:26 AM 10/31/2001, Walter C. Pelissero wrote: >Brett Glass writes: > > Install an ad-blocking proxy such as WebWasher (http://www.webwasher.com/). > > Most of these can be set to replace your browser's user agent string with > > whatever you specify. > >Are suggesting that I should disguise myself to access a service I pay >for? Sounds like freedom of choice is all right as long as you >practice it undercover. In the world of computers and computer networks, there are (alas) so many dolts that one often has no choice. Remember, most such decisions are made by PHBs (pointy-haired bosses), who in turn make them out of fear and ignorance. Forgive them, for they know not what they do. And expect to encounter them, since unless the human race suddenly and dramatically mutates you will encounter them throughout your life. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 31 22: 0: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4587937B405 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15zAtR-0007cK-00; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:59:57 -0800 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:59:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rc.d patch to test out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Calling someone by their last name like that is rude and not proper > > English grammer. I do not know why everyone here seems to do this to me. At least, they are using your name instead of calling you something else. Also, many people prefer to be called by just their last name. In many, many situations, especially when I am asked for my name during pick-up basketball games, I simply just introduce myself as "Reed". And many of my best friends (for the past 15 years) simply use my last name. It seems natural for me, except when their parents or children use just my last name. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 1:59:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70AEB37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15zEcg-000M0m-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:58:54 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15zEcp-000Bu0-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:59:03 +0000 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:59:03 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Nils Holland Cc: "Walter C. Pelissero" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net>; from nils@tisys.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 09:10:34PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15zEcg-000M0m-00*$AK$JWuaLoucUqkiknzGDoy9r.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, this one got me fired up, and I suspect this will turn into a flamewar if we're not careful - if you want to tell me I'm a cretin or send me rude messages, please do so off-list. For the record I'm a 'nix user and developer and have been for about 7 years now. I'm writing this in mutt whilst ssh'ed into a FBSD box from my FBSD laptop. I spend most of my professional life these days writing the tricky stuff on large, complicated, true full-on application-style websites. No, I don't do the HTML, I do the stuff that makes things work. Please, read on if you want to know why I think IE-only compatability is a good thing for the user. On Oct 31, Nils Holland wrote: > Seriously: I have seen a few sites that kept complaining that my browser > (either Konqueror 2.2.1 or Mozilla 0.9.5) are not supported, but when I > told these browsers to disgusie as something else, I mostly noted that the > page displayed without any (or only with minor) problems. When some online Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java that was supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the underlying functionality of the site going, and that because you're not running it, you are going to cause problems for yourself, and potentially for the site admins? Do you honestly think that there are people out there who deliberately close markets and channels and make their site unavailable to you just to annoy you? Your logic is severely flawed. > I always thought that any website (including the that started this thread) > has an interest in being compatible with as many systems as possible, thus > being accessible for the broadest range of people. But if some website > tells me it's not compatible with what I use, then I'll take that as an > invitation to leave and go somewhere else. As a customer, *they* depend on > me more than I depend on them, I think... Great, I hope you do go somewhere else, so I don't have to spend time working out why the hell various things aren't working the way they should be whenever you come to my site, and you don't spend time phoning up support telling them everything is broken, thereby causing me to have to close 50 tickets on a Monday morning. The guy who started this thread complained about Natwest being 'facist' - perhaps they just want to run some Java crypto stuff to further enhance the site's security, in the same way Smile used to. Perhaps they need to track what he is doing, for the security of HIS account, by running a little JS. Perhaps they just want to make sure the site looks the way they expect it to, just to enforce their corporate image. Perhaps they tried to make it compatible with as many browsers as possible, but weren't able to because those browsers hadn't implemented various chunks of functionality. Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not there entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like us, on the backend. It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you expect it to behave. This is particularly important in banking applications. It is nobody's intention to limit markets and get people to go elsewhere. When I put browser compatability checks on sites, it's in the vain effort that some developers somewhere will get a clue and perhaps put some decent javascript support into their browsers - I understand open source software are constrained in this effort, but Netscape should have switched to MS-compatibility a long time ago if they wanted to retain market share. Love or loathe the fact that on low budgets and tight delivery times, I'll always code for MS IE compatability, as that will always guarantee a decent marketshare available to us. So will any other web developer worth his salt. Just please try and understand how a conversation with a client might go: Bank: Why is half the UI functionality that we wanted missing Me: Well, that would have required me to use MS-specific stuff and that would be facist and not allow all users to use the site Bank: Why is the site so slow? Me: Well, because we can't run any Java or even Javascript in there for true open compatability, we have to do everything serverside. That means that the server load is tripled during peak preiods. Unfortunately, because we're trying to serve users over 12 timezones here, every minute of the day is a peak hour for somebody. It's OK - the site will be quicker next week after we spend another half million on hardware upgrades Bank: Wouldn't it just be easier and cheaper to make everything MS-specific Me: Well, yes, obviously, because that's what 98% of your customers currently use, and we could do all sorts of stuff to make things faster and so forth. Bank: So why haven't you done it? Me: Because then the other 2% would complain and winge like bitches that they can't use the site, or when it loads it doesn't work and everything looks broken Bank: Broken? We can't have people seeing our prestigious website broken! Is there any way we can stop them seeing that? Me: Browser compatability check? Sure we could do that.... Bank: Why aren't they using MS software anyway? Me: Bank: So let's summarise - we haven't got the application we wanted, it doesn't work as well as our competitor's, the whole thing is much slower and to rectify that we need more server hardware. We could just make the site IE-only thereby annoying between 1% and 10% of our users, but of those the majority will have access to IE anyway (Windows Netscape users), the whole project becomes cheaper, we get everything we want and so does the user, and we can check what the user is using, and if it's not compatible, we can stop them from seeing a broken website? Me: Yes. Bank: And when these user's browsers get IE-compatible, we can let them back in? Me: Yes. Bank: Do all of this, otherwise we don't pay you... Me: OK. In summary - perhaps you and other KDE and Gnome users (including myself) should think of it as being that our software is not good enough for their site rather than their site being too lame for our software... I like it even less than you do, but that's the way of the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 2: 5:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCAB37B408; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 470D914C2E; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:05:12 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Kris Kirby Cc: Nate Williams , , Gordon Tetlow , Subject: Re: rc.d patch to test out References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Nov 2001 11:05:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Nate Williams wrote: > > Not where I'm from. It's considered as normal as using someone's first > > name, and in other cultures using a first name is actually rude. > IIRC, the French do this, no? It's considered formal and a bit cold, bordering on condescending. The only occasion where I find it normal (and non-offensive) to call people by their last name is when calling out a roster or a waiting list. Things are slightly different in Norway, where last-name-only used to be the polite form of address until some time after the war. Doctors still tend to address you by your last name to maintain professional distance and deference to their patients. Apart from that (and the "calling out a roster" situation) everybody's on a first-name basis. DES (prefers DES in most circumstances) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 2:42:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E667837B405 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 43109 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 10:42:02 -0000 Received: from gargoyle-pptp.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.2.42) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 10:42:02 -0000 Message-ID: <3BE126A7.3B6538F9@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 23:40:39 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > Bank: And when these user's browsers get IE-compatible, we can let them back > in? ... hen they came for the Mozilla users, and I didn't speak out because I didn't use Mozilla. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 2:42:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 52DAE37B407 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 43112 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 10:42:08 -0000 Received: from gargoyle-pptp.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.2.42) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 10:42:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 23:40:47 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > Bank: And when these user's browsers get IE-compatible, we can let them back > in? ... then they came for the Mozilla users, and I didn't speak out because I didn't use Mozilla. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 2:42:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-80.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E770837B403 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8264866BAD; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:41:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:41:58 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: [kelley@interpactinc.com: Believe Me or Not, It's Up to You] Message-ID: <20011101024158.A1313@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="liOOAslEiF7prFVr" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A very interesting email. Kris ---- From: Red Thomas Subject: BELIEVE ME OR NOT---IT'S UP TO YOU THE REAL STORY With all the hysteria that has been going around about the use of=20 biological weapons (not to mention chemical and nuclear), I think the best= =20 antidote of all is education and level-headedness. So here is the REAL STORY. Remember, terrorists can't win if we aren't=20 terrified. Since the media has decided to scare everyone with predictions of chemical,= =20 biological, or nuclear warfare on our turf I decided to write a paper and= =20 keep things in their proper perspective. I am a retired military weapons,= =20 munitions, and training expert. Lesson number one: In the mid 1990's there were a series of nerve gas=20 attacks on crowded Japanese subway stations. Given perfect conditions for= =20 an attack less than 10% of the people there were injured (the injured were= =20 better in a few hours) and only one percent of the injured died. 60 Minutes= =20 once had a fellow telling us that one drop of nerve gas could kill a=20 thousand people; well he didn't tell you the thousand dead people per drop= =20 was theoretical. Drill sergeants exaggerate how terrible this stuff was to keep the recruits= =20 awake in class (I know this because I was a Drill sergeant too). Forget everything you've ever seen on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel= =20 about this stuff, it was all a lie (read this sentence again out loud!)!=20 These weapons are about terror, if you remain calm, you will probably not= =20 die. This is far less scary than the media and their "Experts," make it sou= nd. Chemical weapons are categorized as Nerve, Blood, Blister, and=20 Incapacitating agents. Contrary to the hype of reporters and politicians=20 they are not weapons of mass destruction. Instead, they are "Area denial",= =20 and terror weapons that don't destroy anything. When you leave the area you= =20 almost always leave the risk. That's the difference; you can leave the area= =20 and the risk; soldiers may have to stay put and sit through it and that's= =20 why they need all that spiffy gear. These are not gasses; they are vapors or air borne particles. The agent=20 must be delivered in sufficient quantity to kill or injure, and that=20 defines when and how it's used. Every day we have a morning and evening=20 inversion where "stuff," suspended in the air gets pushed down. This=20 inversion is why allergies (pollen) and air pollution are worst at these=20 times of the day. o, a chemical attack will have its best effect an hour of= =20 so either side of sunrise and sunset. Also, being vapors and airborne=20 particles they are heavier than air so they will seek low places like=20 ditches, basements and underground garages. This stuff won't work when it's freezing, it doesn't last when it's hot,=20 and wind spreads it too thin - too fast. They've got to get this stuff on= =20 you, or, get you to inhale it for it to work. They also have to get the=20 concentration of chemicals high enough to kill or wound you. Too little and= =20 it's nothing, too much and it's wasted. What I hope you've gathered by this= =20 point is that a chemical weapons attack that kills a lot of people is=20 incredibly hard to do with military grade agents and equipment so you can= =20 imagine how hard it will be for terrorists. The more you know about this=20 stuff the more you realize how hard it is to use. We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these in your house;=20 plain old bug killer (like Raid) is nerve agent. All nerve agents work the= =20 same way; they are cholinesterase inhibitors that mess up the signals your= =20 nervous system uses to make your body function. It can harm you if you get= =20 it on your skin but it works best if they can get you to inhale it. If you= =20 don't die in the first minute and you can leave the area you're probably=20 gonna live. The military's antidote for all nerve agents is atropine and=20 pralidoxime chloride. Neither one of these does anything to cure the nerve= =20 agent, they send your body into overdrive to keep you alive for five=20 minutes, after that the agent is used up. Your best protection is fresh air= =20 and staying calm. Listed below are the symptoms for nerve agent poisoning. sudden headache,= =20 Dimness of vision (someone you're looking at will have pinpointed pupils),= =20 Runny nose, Excessive saliva or drooling, Difficulty breathing, Tightness= =20 in chest, Nausea, stomach cramps, Twitching of exposed skin where a liquid= =20 just got on you. If you are in public and you start experiencing these=20 symptoms, first ask yourself, did anything out of the ordinary just happen,= =20 a loud pop, did someone spray something on the crowd? Are other people=20 getting sick too? Is there an odor of new mown hay, green corn, something fruity, or camphor= =20 where it shouldn't be? If the answer is yes, then calmly (if you panic you= =20 breathe faster and inhale more air/poison) leave the area and head up wind,= =20 or, outside. Fresh air is the best "right now antidote". If you have a blob of liquid=20 that looks like molasses or Kayro syrup on you; blot it or scrape it off=20 and away from yourself with anything disposable. This stuff works based on= =20 your body weight, what a crop duster uses to kill bugs won't hurt you=20 unless you stand there and breathe it in real deep, then lick the residue= =20 off the ground for while. Remember they have to do all the work, they have= =20 to get the concentration up and keep it up for several minutes while all=20 you have to do is quit getting it on you--quit breathing it by putting=20 space between you and the attack. Blood agents are cyanide or arsine, which affect your blood's ability to=20 provide oxygen to your tissue. The scenario for attack would be the same as= =20 nerve agent. Look for a pop or someone splashing or spraying something and= =20 folks around there getting woozy and falling down. The telltale smells are= =20 bitter almonds or garlic where it shouldn't be. The symptoms are blue lips,= =20 blue under the fingernails rapid breathing. The military's antidote is amyl= =20 nitride and just like nerve agent antidote it just keeps your body working= =20 for five minutes till the toxins are used up. Fresh air is the your best=20 individual chance. Blister agents (distilled mustard) are so nasty that nobody wants to even= =20 handle it let alone use it. It's almost impossible to handle safely and may= =20 have delayed effect of up to 12 hours. The attack scenario is also limited= =20 to the things you'd see from other chemicals. If you do get large, painful= =20 blisters for no apparent reason, don't pop them, if you must don't let the= =20 liquid from the blister get on any other area, the stuff just keeps on=20 spreading. It's just as likely to harm the user as the target. Soap, water,= =20 sunshine, and fresh air are this stuff's enemy. Bottom line on chemical weapons (it's the same if they use industrial=20 chemical spills); they are intended to make you panic, to terrorize you,to= =20 herd you like sheep to the wolves. If there is an attack, leave the area=20 and go upwind, or to the sides of the wind stream. They have to get the=20 stuff to you, and on you. You're more likely to be hurt by a drunk driver= =20 on any given day than be hurt by one of these attacks. Your odds get better= =20 if you leave the area. Soap, water, time, and fresh air really deal this=20 stuff a knock-out-punch. Don't let fear of an isolated attack rule your=20 life. The odds are really on your side. Nuclear bombs. These are the only weapons of mass destruction on earth. The= =20 effects of a nuclear bomb are heat, blast, EMP, and radiation. If you see a= =20 bright flash of light like the sun, where the sun isn't, fall to the=20 ground! The heat will be over a second. Then there will be two blast waves,= =20 one out going, and one on it's way back. Don't stand up to see what=20 happened after the first wave; anything that's going to happen will have=20 happened in two full minutes. These will be low yield devices and will not level whole cities. If you=20 live through the heat, blast, and initial burst of radiation, you'll=20 probably live for a very, very long time. Radiation will not create=20 fifty-foot tall women, or giant ants and grass hoppers the size of tanks.= =20 These will be at the most 1-kiloton bombs; that's the equivalent of 1,000= =20 tons of TNT. Here's the real deal, flying debris and radiation will kill a lot of=20 exposed (not all!) people within a half mile of the blast. Under perfect=20 conditions this is about a half-mile circle of death and destruction, but= =20 when it's done it's done. EMP stands for Electro Magnetic Pulse and it will= =20 fry every electronic device for a good distance, it's impossible to say=20 what and how far but probably not over a couple of miles from ground zero= =20 is a good guess. Cars, cell phones, computers, ATMs, you name it, all will= =20 be out of order. There are lots of kinds of radiation, you only need to worry about three;= =20 the others you have lived with for years. You need to worry about "ionizing= =20 radiation", these are little sub atomic particles that go whizzing along at= =20 the speed of light. They hit individual cells in your body, kill the=20 nucleus and keep on going. That's how you get radiation poisoning; you have= =20 so many dead cells in your body that the decaying cells poison you. It's=20 the same as people getting radiation treatments for cancer; only a bigger= =20 area gets radiated. The good news is you don't have to just sit there and= =20 take it, and there's lots you can do rather than panic. First; your skin=20 will stop alpha particles, a page of a news paper or your clothing will=20 stop beta particles, you just gotta try and avoid inhaling dust that's=20 contaminated with atoms that are emitting these things and you'll be=20 generally safe from them. Gamma rays are particles that travel like rays (quantum physics makes my=20 brain hurt) and they create the same damage as alpha and beta particles=20 only they keep going and kill lots of cells as they go all the way through= =20 your body. It takes a lot to stop these things, lots of dense material on= =20 the other hand it takes a lot of this to kill you. Your defense is as always to not panic. Basic hygiene and normal=20 preparation are your friends. All canned or frozen food is safe to eat. The= =20 radiation poisoning will not affect plants so fruits and vegetables are OK= =20 if there's no dust on em (rinse em off if there is). If you don't have=20 running water and you need to collect rainwater or use water from wherever,= =20 just let it sit for thirty minutes and skim off the water gently from the= =20 top. The dust with the bad stuff in it will settle and the remaining water= =20 can be used for the toilet that will still work if you have a bucket of=20 water to pour in the tank. Finally there's biological warfare. There's not much to cover here. Basic= =20 personal hygiene and sanitation will take you further than a million=20 doctors. Wash your hands often; don't share drinks, food, sloppy=20 kisses,etc., ... with strangers. Keep your garbage can with a tight lid on= =20 it, don't have standing water (like old buckets, ditches, or kiddie pools)= =20 laying around to allow mosquitoes breeding room. Vectors, that is bugs,=20 rodents, and contaminated material, carry this stuff. If biological warfare= =20 is so easy as the TV makes it sound, why has Saddam Hussein spent twenty=20 years, millions, and millions of dollars trying to get it right? If you're= =20 clean of person and home you eat well and are active you're gonna live. Overall preparation for any terrorist attack is the same as you'd take for= =20 a big storm. If you want a gas mask, fine, go get one. I know this stuff=20 and I'm not getting one and I told my Mom not to bother with one either=20 (how's that for confidence). We have a week's worth of cash, several days= =ED=20 worth of canned goods and plenty of soap and water. We don't leave stuff=20 out to attract bugs or rodents so we don't have them. These people can't=20 conceive a nation this big with this many resources. These weapons are made= =20 to cause panic, terror, and to demoralize. If we don't run around like=20 sheep they won't use this stuff after they find out it's no fun. The=20 government is going nuts over this stuff because they have to protect every= =20 inch of America. You've only gotta protect yourself, and by doing that, you= =20 help the country. Finally, there are millions of caveats to everything I wrote here and you= =20 can think up specific scenarios where my advice isn't the best. This letter= =20 is supposed to help the greatest number of people under the greatest number= =20 of situations. If you don't like my work, don't nit pick, just sit down and= =20 explain chemical, nuclear, and biological warfare in a document around=20 three pages long yourself. This is how we the people of the United tates=20 can rob these people of their most desired goal, your terror. FC Red Thomas (Ret) Armor Master Gunner Mesa, AZ Unlimited reproduction and= =20 distribution is authorized. For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ----- End forwarded message ----- --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE74Sb1Wry0BWjoQKURAhIlAJ9JI7ZVfLnjR2EDHdKq7ix0ipJG7wCbBCLG a7ErqnCCnjtrShWoeYyXVOs= =TQ4y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --liOOAslEiF7prFVr-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 3:21: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B2937B401 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 03:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15zFu5-000Msi-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:20:57 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15zFuF-000Byf-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:21:07 +0000 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:21:07 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Craig Harding Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Supporting MS IE (was Re: NatWest? no thanks) Message-ID: <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz>; from crh@outpost.co.nz on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:40:47PM +1300 X-Scanner: exiscan *15zFu5-000Msi-00*$AK$mZUYAMgVmko9rszmhkjK91* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Nov 1, Craig Harding wrote: > Paul Robinson wrote: > > > Bank: And when these user's browsers get IE-compatible, we can let them back > > in? > > ... then they came for the Mozilla users, and I didn't speak out because > I didn't use Mozilla. Standards are a Good Thing. Like it or not, IE has become a standard - 98% of the potential customers for any site are likely to have access to it (even if it's not their preferred browser). As a result, to reduce dev. costs we'll develop for MS IE as our target browser. Now, instead of moaning about how IE doesn't do this, or doesn't follow this standard, perhaps, just perhaps, we should put some development effort into Mozilla and other browsers to make them IE compatible. At this point, it is the OSS development community's job to make user's switch by giving them a similar browser experience to IE but without any of the nasty stuff (like it crashing, Passport stuff, etc.). We're a long way from there, but to say we shouldn't start out is ridiculous. Also, you seem to imply that we should all support all browsers. That's rot, and you know it is. How about this then - you can use your on-line bank with any browser you want, but you have to pay, say, an extra $50 setup to fund the development? If you're genuinely happy to do that, tell your bank. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 3:31:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22AF37B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 03:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-123.wobline.de [212.68.69.131]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1BUjN26493; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:30:45 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1BX3722133; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:33:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1BUSI00929; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:31:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:30:28 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Paul Robinson Cc: "Walter C. Pelissero" , Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011101121331.A912-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > OK, this one got me fired up, and I suspect this will turn into a flamewar > if we're not careful - if you want to tell me I'm a cretin or send me rude > messages, please do so off-list. For the record I'm a 'nix user and > developer and have been for about 7 years now. I'm writing this in mutt > whilst ssh'ed into a FBSD box from my FBSD laptop. I spend most of my > professional life these days writing the tricky stuff on large, complicated, > true full-on application-style websites. No, I don't do the HTML, I do the > stuff that makes things work. Please, read on if you want to know why I > think IE-only compatability is a good thing for the user. ...In the western sky, my kingdom come... > Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java that was > supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the underlying > functionality of the site going, and that because you're not running it, you > are going to cause problems for yourself, and potentially for the site > admins? Do you honestly think that there are people out there who > deliberately close markets and channels and make their site unavailable to > you just to annoy you? Your logic is severely flawed. The exampleabout the bank demonstrated that there are people out there who seem to like to may their site unavailable to close their site to folks like me only to annoy me. So their logic is severely flawed. And furthermore, who says that the software I use cannot run the JavaScript that is needed for the "underlying functionality" of the site? We're not talking about JavaScript problems, but we're talking about scripts which do nothing but "Non-IE browser -> Get outta here". > Great, I hope you do go somewhere else, so I don't have to spend time > working out why the hell various things aren't working the way they should > be whenever you come to my site, and you don't spend time phoning up support > telling them everything is broken, thereby causing me to have to close 50 > tickets on a Monday morning. Nice to hear that your site is so broken, even more nice to hear that you get 50 problem reports through the weekend. FYI, if you want to defend something, you should not make what you defend look more stupid in the end. Doing so is the job of the guy with the different opinion (=me). Nice to see that you're doing my work, though. > The guy who started this thread complained about Natwest being 'facist' - > perhaps they just want to run some Java crypto stuff to further enhance the > site's security, in the same way Smile used to. Perhaps they need to track > what he is doing, for the security of HIS account, by running a little JS. > Perhaps they just want to make sure the site looks the way they expect it > to, just to enforce their corporate image. Perhaps they tried to make it > compatible with as many browsers as possible, but weren't able to because > those browsers hadn't implemented various chunks of functionality. Hmmm, did someone mention seriously flawed logic a few minutes ago? > Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not there > entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like us, on the > backend. It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you > expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you expect it > to behave. This is particularly important in banking applications. It is > nobody's intention to limit markets and get people to go elsewhere. Wait a minute. You say that testing is there for ensuring that things "get displayed where they were intended to be displayed"? That's fine, but then, however, why did the testing in the example that started this thread lead to stuff not being displayed at all on *many* machines (namely non-MS / MAC ones?) > When I put browser compatability checks on sites, it's in the vain effort > that some developers somewhere will get a clue and perhaps put some decent > javascript support into their browsers - I understand open source software > are constrained in this effort, but Netscape should have switched to > MS-compatibility a long time ago if they wanted to retain market share. I wonder if Netscape will be able to use MS's "changes" made to JavaScript as well as other MS technology without paying MS money. MS didn't do what they did for Netscape to become compatible to their technology, but to make Netscape lose the market share you have just mentioned. > Love or loathe the fact that on low budgets and tight delivery times, I'll > always code for MS IE compatability, as that will always guarantee a decent > marketshare available to us. So will any other web developer worth his salt. See, that's where we differ: I use to code for compatibility with all browsers as much as possible, so I'll have a better market share than you. > In summary - perhaps you and other KDE and Gnome users (including myself) > should think of it as being that our software is not good enough for their > site rather than their site being too lame for our software... I like it > even less than you do, but that's the way of the world. If I get some more time, I will come up with the definitive prove that the world is flat. Maybe I can even prove that I know the definite date and time of Jesus' birth. But, in case you didn't notice: Commercial companies need to make much money. Microsoft noted that they can blow up all kinds of standards and force people to use their software. KDE and Gnome create truly open software that is compliant to "real" standards. These non-commercial projects don't need to take use of unfair methods as MS does, and that alone makes the software much better than Microsoft's. And, by the way: If I can believe the original complaint about the bank, then there was not even a technical reason for them to block access of non-MS browsers. They only seemed to have done it for the fun of it. Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org DISCLAIMER: This message is not meant to offend anyone. I just like pointing (IMHO) strange logic out whenever I find it... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 4:10:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D345637B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 5CAD914C2E; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:10:13 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Nicpon, John" Cc: Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! References: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FF3@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Nov 2001 13:10:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FF3@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Nicpon, John" writes: > Please specifically define where data goes that is sent to /dev/null It goes into a special data sink in the CPU where it is converted to heat which is vented through the heatsink / fan assembly. This is why CPU cooling is increasingly important; as people get used to faster processors, they become careless with their data and more and more of it ends up in /dev/null, overheating their CPUs. If you delete /dev/null (which effectively disables the CPU data sink) your CPU may run cooler but your system will quickly become constipated with all that excess data and start to behave erratically. If you have a fast network connection you can cool down your CPU by reading data out of /dev/random and sending it off somewhere; however you run the risk of overheating your network connection and / or angering your ISP, as most of the data will end up getting converted to heat by their equipment, but they generally have good cooling, so if you don't overdo it you should be OK. I hope this answers your question. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 5:45: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1545937B407 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 05:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15zI93-000OCN-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:44:33 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15zI9G-000C7v-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:44:46 +0000 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:44:46 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Nicpon, John" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! Message-ID: <20011101134445.K43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FF3@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 01:10:12PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15zI93-000OCN-00*$AK$pJNEumXfu7QbZjEUEiS4w.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There are other methods. As every good sysadmin knows, it is part of standard practise to send data to the screen of interesting variety to keep all the pixies that make up your picture happy. Screen pixies (commonly mis-typed or re-named as 'pixels') are categorised by the type of hat they wear (red, green or blue) and will hide or appear (thereby showing the colour of their hat) whenever they receive a little piece of food. Video cards turn data into pixie-food, and then send them to the pixies - the more expensive the card, the better the food, so the better behaved the pixies are. They also need constant simulation - this is why screen savers exist. To take your suggestions further, you could just throw the random data to console, thereby letting the pixies consume it. This causes no heat to be produced at all, keeps the pixies happy and gets rid of your data quite quickly, even if it does make things look a bit messy on your screen. Incidentally, as an ex-admin of a large ISP who experienced many problems attempting to maintain a stable temperature in a server room, I would strongly discourage people sending the data they don't want out to the network. The fairies who do the packet switching and routing get annoyed by it as well. On Nov 1, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Nicpon, John" writes: > > Please specifically define where data goes that is sent to /dev/null > > It goes into a special data sink in the CPU where it is converted to > heat which is vented through the heatsink / fan assembly. This is why > CPU cooling is increasingly important; as people get used to faster > processors, they become careless with their data and more and more of > it ends up in /dev/null, overheating their CPUs. If you delete > /dev/null (which effectively disables the CPU data sink) your CPU may > run cooler but your system will quickly become constipated with all > that excess data and start to behave erratically. If you have a fast > network connection you can cool down your CPU by reading data out of > /dev/random and sending it off somewhere; however you run the risk of > overheating your network connection and / or angering your ISP, as > most of the data will end up getting converted to heat by their > equipment, but they generally have good cooling, so if you don't > overdo it you should be OK. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 6:11:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F85837B403 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 06:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fA1Dq1S84494; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:52:01 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:52:01 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Paul Robinson Cc: Craig Harding , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Supporting MS IE (was Re: NatWest? no thanks) Message-ID: <20011101135201.N99754@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qi3SIpffvxS/TM8d" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:21:07AM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --qi3SIpffvxS/TM8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:21:07AM +0000, Paul Robinson wrote: > Now, instead of moaning about how IE doesn't do this, or doesn't follow t= his > standard, perhaps, just perhaps, we should put some development effort in= to > Mozilla and other browsers to make them IE compatible. At this point, it = is > the OSS development community's job to make user's switch by giving them a > similar browser experience to IE but without any of the nasty stuff (like= it > crashing, Passport stuff, etc.). We're a long way from there, but to say = we > shouldn't start out is ridiculous. Doesn't work. Because now you've just handed effective control of the standard to Microsoft. Go re-read the Halloween memos, and the bit about embracing and extending commodity protocols and standards in order to lock out competition. I note that one online bank in the UK (Egg) is now planning on switching to using MS Passport for authentication. > Also, you seem to imply that we should all support all browsers. That's r= ot, > and you know it is. How about this then - you can use your on-line bank w= ith > any browser you want, but you have to pay, say, an extra $50 setup to fund > the development? If you're genuinely happy to do that, tell your bank. One of your earlier examples gives the lie to this. Smile (the bank I use) switched from a slow, browser dependent, crash prone Java applet to a CGI implementation. They've retained (as far as I can see) all the functionality, and have transformed their online banking experience (for want of a better phrase) from something that used to be very frustrating to something that is much more convenient and (possibly psychologically) much faster. As an aside, it also lets me do clever things. Because their interface is (effectively) an application where the URLs form command strings, I can write simple[1] Perl scripts that can go to the site, and pull down my current balance for me. Which is actually quite handy. I couldn't do that before. N [1] Well, moderately complex --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --qi3SIpffvxS/TM8d Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvhU4EACgkQk6gHZCw343Xq6ACbBIUQcOEjmEc94qFHKtI0LUoi l3oAmgO+EiJ4aXAZXf763g0jOSFM7Vzd =OpcO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qi3SIpffvxS/TM8d-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 8: 7: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DC837B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from columbia ([12.93.208.96]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011101160702.SDGD29594.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@columbia>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:07:02 +0000 From: "Andrew C. Hornback" To: "Paul Robinson" , "Nils Holland" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:04:59 -0500 Message-ID: <00d101c162ee$f53ae260$6600000a@columbia> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Paul Robinson > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:59 AM > To: Nils Holland > Cc: Walter C. Pelissero; Brett Glass; chat@FreeBSD.ORG; > advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > > OK, this one got me fired up, and I suspect this will turn into a flamewar > if we're not careful - if you want to tell me I'm a cretin or send me rude > messages, please do so off-list. For the record I'm a 'nix user and > developer and have been for about 7 years now. I'm writing this in mutt > whilst ssh'ed into a FBSD box from my FBSD laptop. I spend most of my > professional life these days writing the tricky stuff on large, > complicated, > true full-on application-style websites. No, I don't do the HTML, I do the > stuff that makes things work. Please, read on if you want to know why I > think IE-only compatability is a good thing for the user. [tirade snipped for brevity] Paul, I've got one simple question for you. You develop on and for Unix platforms, as it says above. Unix platforms have a generally accepted set of standards that those playing the game play by. Now, when it comes to Java, Javascript and all of that hooey (It's a Southern term), who's version do you use? Who produces REAL Java? Sun, the originators of the standard... or Microsoft, the ones that took the standard and perverted it for their own political uses? You raise some interesting issues, but I think that it's quite comical for sites to require MSIE for doing Java work, etc. when Microsoft isn't even producing a Java development package anymore. For those that don't know, Microsoft had to sell J++ and the related items to Rational Software in order to satisfy the judge's ruling in their lawsuit against Sun. Nothing I can say or do is going to change how you go about your business. But, I'll say this much, when you start producing websites that REQUIRE that God-awful Microsoft Passport thing, expect much more of an uproar. --- Andy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 8:42:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D7737B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15zKux-000Pxr-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:42:11 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15zKvC-000CFn-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:42:26 +0000 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:42:26 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: "Andrew C. Hornback" Cc: Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <00d101c162ee$f53ae260$6600000a@columbia> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00d101c162ee$f53ae260$6600000a@columbia>; from achornback@worldnet.att.net on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:04:59AM -0500 X-Scanner: exiscan *15zKux-000Pxr-00*$AK$W.dG76fvtIRwh7oBRDO651* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Nov 1, "Andrew C. Hornback" wrote: > [tirade snipped for brevity] Thanks. :-) > Paul, I've got one simple question for you. You develop on and for Unix > platforms, as it says above. Unix platforms have a generally accepted set > of standards that those playing the game play by. Indeed, however some standards, we all must accept for better or for worse, are generic and don't come from a range of individuals from across the industry sat around a table (or mailing list) hammering out the technical merits of each point. One organisation or group or even individual just comes up with it from nowhere. Unavoidable, but should be noted. > Now, when it comes to Java, Javascript and all of that hooey (It's a > Southern term), who's version do you use? Who produces REAL Java? Sun, the > originators of the standard... or Microsoft, the ones that took the standard > and perverted it for their own political uses? That is really a client issue - if the client says that the site will be accessed from MS platforms, and for whatever reason they want to make sure that everything is as compatible as possible out of the box, you have to look to using MS technology. In the case of websites, anybody with a copy of analog looking after a busy mainstream site can see that MS IE is the predominant browser, and as such is the benchmark 'standard' browser you put the most effort into developing the site for. > You raise some interesting issues, but I think that it's quite comical for > sites to require MSIE for doing Java work, etc. when Microsoft isn't even > producing a Java development package anymore. For those that don't know, > Microsoft had to sell J++ and the related items to Rational Software in > order to satisfy the judge's ruling in their lawsuit against Sun. Java is indeed a bad example now. I think my argument went off on a tangent because I can't understand why people don't see what I see. It's great producing W3-standard compliant browsers, and making sure that all your software adopts open standards. Given a free reign, I would want to ensure that this sort of technology was on every desktop in the world. However, right now, it isn't. And faced with that fact the OSS community has two choices: 1. We can whine about MS till the cows come home. We can tell every PHB and user in the land that MS sucks. We can try and convince them to move to an alternative technology, because that technology is what we believe in. We can point out that if you change the way things work both technically and to some extent politically (MS Word Docs should not be the inter-office standard for example), then the world becomes a better place. It might not save them money straight away, and early adopters are running a risk that we're are all talking crap. But that's the way it is. OR 2. We look at our codebase, and the functionality. We decide the best way to move forward is to give the user the same experience on our platforms as on the MS platforms. We work, as a community, to make sure that sites that are 'latest IE only' also look great and work in an identical manner when they are viewed in Mozilla or Konqueror. We then go back to the users and PHBs and say 'look, it's all effectively identical, plus TCO is lower, licensing is more liberal, and it's all infinitely extendible due to the fact we have the source' Question: Which approach is going to get the most users? Which approach is going to convince the PHB and the users that open technology is the way to go? The long term goal should be about technical excellence, and everything that is done now should be done to the best standard we can adopt, however we also need users and PHBs to not be intimidated when they come to evaluate our 'product'. Take an example of a new user who wants to do a bit of typing up on their machine, print some documents out, and perhaps send a few e-mails. Given a PC a slight clue and an hour, and they're most likely to going to start getting the hang of the basics. At the moment, with FreeBSD we hand them a copy of the Handbook and ask 'So, first off - what do you know about disklabel?' - User Experience is all, and the OSS community has to begin to accept that to gain mass acceptance. Without mass acceptance, nobody listens to the politcal or legal cries we make. In the end, to compete with MS, you have to start by mimicking them to a certain extent. I don't think I'm saying anything new here, but at least my argument is clearer now than it may have been before. > Nothing I can say or do is going to change how you go about your business. > But, I'll say this much, when you start producing websites that REQUIRE that > God-awful Microsoft Passport thing, expect much more of an uproar. Passport is a politcal issue more than a technical issue. If we wanted, we could all sit down now and work out an open, secure, distributed, peer-to-peer style Passport 'mimic'. However, how many mainstream sites would adopt it? At the moment, virtually none. What if we put support into Mozilla? OK, people are starting to get slightly interested, but even with Netscape's blessing it's not going to go far. What if we say 'look, this is almost identical to IE in every way, except it's better, because...' and we then go out on a mass 'marketing drive'. At that point, we start making inroads. We at least get to the point where companies will look to support both systems. And that's when we can advance by being more innovative than the competitor. It all comes back to User Experience, and if the User is happy with IE, it's going to take a lot to convince them to change. Even the VBS worms didn't make a sizeable dent in the number of users using Outlook for mail. Right, enough rambling. I hope my argument is a little clearer now than it was this morning (local time for me). Should turn into an interesting argument, this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 8:45:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pelissero.org (dyn182-40.sftm-212-159.plus.net [212.159.40.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE7137B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id fA1GiIN39765; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:44:18 GMT (envelope-from wcp) Message-ID: <15329.31713.864514.24367@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:44:17 +0000 From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson writes: > OK, this one got me fired up, and I suspect this will turn into a > flamewar if we're not careful I haven't noticed any hint of flamewar yet. Well, until your message. > No, I don't do the HTML, I do the stuff that makes things > work. I've seen several beautiful pages written in plain HTML. Anyway I wouldn't put down HTML that much. It sounds like I don't move on wheels because I drive a car. Even you are dealing mainly with dynamic HTML, it's HTML nevertheless. > Please, read on if you want to know why I think IE-only > compatability is a good thing for the user. Sorry, you didn't convince me. Go on reading, I'm going to explain you why. > Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java > that was supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the > underlying functionality of the site going, and that because you're > not running it, you are going to cause problems for yourself, and > potentially for the site admins? Beside that a Fat Client is a questionable design choice that we are not here to discuss, the bank site used to work flawlessly with my browser. THIS is the same browser that is installed on a Win box. According to the JavaScript code the discrimination is not on the browser (not only), but on the OS. Which in my opinion is nonsense. > Do you honestly think that there are people out there who > deliberately close markets and channels and make their site > unavailable to you just to annoy you? I think there are people who belive that the solution to their problems is to hide them. I just try to guess. The problem might have been that the bank employed bad programmers who couldn't write web pages without resorting to "unportable" code. Instead of solving the problem (firing the programmers), they preferred to cut off the possible troublesome customers. Instead of cutting on help line calls they increased them, leading eventually to the disaffection of some customers. > Great, I hope you do go somewhere else, so I don't have to spend > time working out why the hell various things aren't working the way > they should be whenever you come to my site, and you don't spend > time phoning up support telling them everything is broken, thereby > causing me to have to close 50 tickets on a Monday morning. I belive you should better be interested to know why your code is broken instead of labeling those who don't have your system/browser/setup as uninteresting visitors. You might end up wondering why nobody is visiting your pages. > The guy who started this thread complained about Natwest being > 'facist' The guy who started this thread complained about NatWest enforcing "faScist" compatibility tests. > perhaps they just want to run some Java crypto stuff to > further enhance the site's security, in the same way Smile used > to. This is not a source of incompatibilities. I've been working on this kind of problems myself. I can tell you, Netscape's Java Virtual Machine is equally broken on Windows as well as on Unix/Linux/FreeBSD. > Perhaps they need to track what he is doing, for the security > of HIS account, by running a little JS. What I am doing?? This is interesting. Could you please elaborate on it? > Perhaps they just want to make sure the site looks the way they > expect it to, just to enforce their corporate image. That's what CSS are for. Is this not enough? Do you mean something more sophisticated, like checking if I have all the necessary fonts and my screen visual depth (number of colors) is good enough? Yeah, this HTML is difficult to tame if you want to get to pixel manipulation. Anyway, what difference would make a FreeBSD over a Windows in this regard? > Perhaps they tried to make it compatible with as many browsers as > possible, but weren't able to because those browsers hadn't > implemented various chunks of functionality. Are you meaning the chunks of functionality you don't find in Netscape 4.76 for FreeBSD and you find in Netscape 4.76 for Windows? Which ones? Or you mean the chunks of functionality I've been using for almost two years on my FreeBSD box to access the bank web site without a problem? > Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not > there entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like > us, on the backend. I belive browsers compatibility testing is there only to save the ass of clumsy programmers who succeeded to convince their boss (or PHB) it's not their fault if things are screwed up, and to let Microsoft zealots make a living with the few concepts they have picked up from the "Web for Dummies" book they have skimmed through. No offense meant. > It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you > expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you > expect it to behave. While, I'm still looking forward to see a list of discrepancies between NS 4.76/FreeBSD and NS 4.76/Windows that could invalidate a seriously written code, I don't understand why the user shouldn't be let in and find by him/herself whether his/her browser works or not. > Netscape should have switched to MS-compatibility a long time ago > if they wanted to retain market share. You mean they should have switched to MS-compatibility when Microsoft had still to join the Web and Bill Gates was preaching against it? While at this I would suggest even W3C to leave alone all that stupid standardization efforts and let Microsoft decide for them. Hopefully Nike is not coming up with a one-sleeved t-shirt because, otherwise you would have to chop away one arm. I'm afraid, your statement is supporting Microsoft's EEE (Embrace, Extend and Extinguish) approach to things. The market leader doesn't necessarily have the best product. I belive you agree since you are using FreeBSD and not XP. > Love or loathe the fact that on low budgets and tight delivery > times, I'll always code for MS IE compatability, as that will > always guarantee a decent marketshare available to us. So will any > other web developer worth his salt. That's your choice, fair enough. I find personally easier to keep myself to a common denominator and don't bind myself to some exotic and unnecessary proprietary technology that is not standard even for the owner itself and it's meant to keep changing just to introduce incompatibilities and market fragmentation. This means I wouldn't chose to support a Netscape extension either. (Remember the EEE.) In the long run it pays. > Just please try and understand how a conversation with a client > might go: You just explained that people should switch to IE to help you get along with your boss/customer. I personally don't care and I don't see a strong relation to the OS ban in NatWest's page. > In summary - perhaps you and other KDE and Gnome users (including > myself) should think of it as being that our software is not good > enough for their site rather than their site being too lame for our > software... I don't use KDE neither Gnome and I don't think they would be related to the NatWest issue. I certainly don't belive that "our software" is not good enough since Netscape for FreeBSD is basically the same that runs on Windows. Isn't it? > I like it even less than you do, but that's the way of the world. I don't think the world would look a better place just keeping in mind cheap philosophical considerations. Fortunately you just explained your point of view, not "the way of the world". -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 10:40: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C3837B401 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F2ABCFC; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29241; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:39:58 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA1IcPk53397; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:38:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Paul Robinson Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Supporting MS IE (was Re: NatWest? no thanks) References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Nov 2001 10:38:24 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson writes: > Standards are a Good Thing. They are usually better than no standards, but what people should be crying out for is Open Standards. Sure, trying to be compatible with closed standards like IE, is a desirable thing to do for practical reasons, but it has a short future since M$ will be able to leverage such standards into an eventual requirement that any use of information technology is a requirement to use only M$ software (and with current laws, no possibility of developing compatible software), with this result limited only by new laws or court actions. If we could get banks and such to see the light and at least insist that their M$ software use open standards for information exchange, then they may be able to have some price-competition in the source of the software they (and their customers) must purchace. Can no one think more than a few months into the future? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 10:40:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282AB37B401 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.135.128.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.135.128] helo=mindspring.com) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zMlO-0005bX-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:40:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE1974C.C947CDEF@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:41:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: Craig Harding , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Supporting MS IE (was Re: NatWest? no thanks) References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > Standards are a Good Thing. Like it or not, IE has become a standard - 98% > of the potential customers for any site are likely to have access to it > (even if it's not their preferred browser). As a result, to reduce > dev. costs we'll develop for MS IE as our target browser. > > Now, instead of moaning about how IE doesn't do this, or doesn't follow this > standard, perhaps, just perhaps, we should put some development effort into > Mozilla and other browsers to make them IE compatible. At this point, it is > the OSS development community's job to make user's switch by giving them a > similar browser experience to IE but without any of the nasty stuff (like it > crashing, Passport stuff, etc.). We're a long way from there, but to say we > shouldn't start out is ridiculous. Cool idea. Are you going to license the MSIE trademark so that it can be used by Mozilla and other browsers, since that's what's necessary to make them report that they are IE? Alternately, we'd be happy to run IE, if it ran on our platform, so are you going to do the port? The Port from MacOS X should not be hard, it's just a matter of converting the UI code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 10:52:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6172D37B406 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC221BCFA; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA32458; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:52:38 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA1Ip4k53400; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:51:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Nicpon, John" , Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! References: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FF3@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Nov 2001 10:51:04 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3y3d3ye353.d3y@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > If you delete > /dev/null (which effectively disables the CPU data sink) your CPU may > run cooler but your system will quickly become constipated with all > that excess data and start to behave erratically. In addition to the constipation, the daemons get the chills when away from a hellish heat for too long. Easy to confuse with a virus. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 11:10:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1240E37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-222.wobline.de [212.68.69.233]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1J9vN11867; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:09:58 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1JCJ723471; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:12:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1JAKI02959; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:10:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:10:20 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Paul Robinson Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > Take an example of a new user who wants to do a bit of typing up on their > machine, print some documents out, and perhaps send a few e-mails. Given a > PC a slight clue and an hour, and they're most likely to going to start > getting the hang of the basics. At the moment, with FreeBSD we hand them a > copy of the Handbook and ask 'So, first off - what do you know about > disklabel?' - User Experience is all, and the OSS community has to begin to > accept that to gain mass acceptance. Without mass acceptance, nobody listens > to the politcal or legal cries we make. Well, this thread has somehow moved at least a bit away from what originally started it. So, I guess what I'm going to say about the above text by Paul will bring it even further away, but, nevertheless I'll do it: Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? FreeBSD, even with a "nice" KDE desktop, is not for everyone, neither should it be for everyone! Have a look at my mother for example: She's using Windows, and it took her quite a long time to even learn to use Word. Learning how to properly use Outlook and Internet Explorer took her about as long as it took me to learn C. Taking that into account, it would probably be a bad idea to "force" my mother or any other "normal" PC user to use something like FreeBSD. Now, what should we do? Should we turn FreeBSD into something that's about the same as Windows - just stupid point-and-click? Hell, no! FreeBSD is obviously designed for more advances users and purposes. It's entirely fine that way - we are not Microsoft, and so we don't need to come up with mean ideas to force people to use FreeBSD. We leave people the free choice to do it, and the way I see it, there are quite a lot of people out there - both advanced hobbyists, programmers, professional users and so on, who'd like to get their fingers on something more fexible, read: FreeBSD. It's the goal of the FreeBSD Project to make that possible - the goal is *not* to produce a point-and-click-even-my-hamster-can-use-it operating system. That's perfectly right. You can look at any other product category out there and you will find products specially made for "normal" home users, and other products made for the pros. I would really say that our operating system *is* not for everybody. But that's by design and nothing we have to worry about. It's intended to be that way. Every user is free to obtain and use FreeBSD, but they must be willing to learn. The more flexible, complex and powerful something is, the more one has to learn about it. Again, this is not only so in the field of computer operating systems. However, we were originally talking about standards. Let's come back to that. I guess there are official W3C standards and similar things that allow web developers to do about anything that's really neccessary to produce a great (and useful) online experience. Microsoft has, as is proven, tried to "mess up" these standars and produced new standards that make little sense (Active X). The goal of all that was only to make it harder for competitors to stay compatible. Users and programmers have realized that by now, and it's only a matter of time how long they will continue to play the game by the MS rules. After all, I guess there's nothing in the computer industry that all kinds of people hate as much as Microsoft (or is there?). Currently, people still play the game the way MS wants to because MS is virtually in control of these people and the industry as a whole. This is most likely going to change rather sooner than later, and then MS will only be a normal company like anyone else. I can't predict that for sure, however, I think that it will eventually happen. Let's look back again: I think this thread was started because some bank rejected access to their site for non-MS systems for no technical reasons. What has been said in this thread today has very little to do with that basic and simple fact. I guess we let ourselves get carried away quite a little. However, it was still funny ;-) Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 11:15:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp008pub.verizon.net (smtp008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.187]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D105837B407 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp008pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fA1JFco04117 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:15:38 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA41364; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:15:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:15:35 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Nicpon, John" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! Message-ID: <20011101111535.A41247@darkstar.gte.net> References: <2AACFCDB6086274CA42D44085EF1BAA2293FF3@msm-001.msg.stcorp.com> <3y3d3ye353.d3y@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3y3d3ye353.d3y@localhost.localdomain>; from swear@blarg.net on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 10:51:04AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org /dev/null is a containter. If you delete it, the little data-singularity will get out and go roving around your system consuming data. You have to be careful with DOS too, cause their wall around "nul:" is thinner, and it tends to get loose fairly often. Be careful with /dev/entropy, /dev/chaos, and /dev/dev/.. (/dev/recursion). [RC] On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 10:51:04AM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > If you delete > > /dev/null (which effectively disables the CPU data sink) your CPU may > > run cooler but your system will quickly become constipated with all > > that excess data and start to behave erratically. > > In addition to the constipation, the daemons get the chills when away > from a hellish heat for too long. Easy to confuse with a virus. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 11:53:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671E737B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14495; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:52:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101125020.04a44100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:52:49 -0700 To: Paul Robinson , Nils Holland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: "Walter C. Pelissero" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:59 AM 11/1/2001, Paul Robinson wrote: >Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java that was >supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the underlying >functionality of the site going, and that because you're not running it, you >are going to cause problems for yourself, and potentially for the site >admins? I have the right to choose what runs and does not run on my machine. I generally turn off Java and JavaScript because both are usually used to add needless and wasteful flash to Websites at the expense of worthwhile content. >Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not there >entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like us, on the >backend. It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you >expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you expect it >to behave. This is particularly important in banking applications. Java and JavaScript are both so unreliable and insecure that it is very important, in banking applications, NOT to use either. --Brett GLass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 12:20:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4325C37B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14903; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:19:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101131856.04a4b960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:19:23 -0700 To: Nils Holland , Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , , In-Reply-To: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> References: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:10 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd >really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? Yes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 12:55:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88C137B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-219.wobline.de [212.68.69.230]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1KtLN20416; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:55:21 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1Kvi723973; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:57:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1KsmC28529; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:55:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:54:48 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101131856.04a4b960@localhost> Message-ID: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:10 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: > > >Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd > >really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? > > Yes. I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short and precise answers... Seriously: How do you imagine it? Throw out the shell and make a GUI only thing? Will the masses out there ever use an OS where you have to type something like "find / \! -newer report.tex"? I'm not saying that X or KDE should not be used, but, as is well known, all GUIs mainly harm flexibility of a system. FreeBSD is here to be used by anyone out there who wants to - but I don't think that we should start producing "point-and-click-only" just because that's obviously easier for the masses (which included a whole lot of not very experienced users) to use. The masses can surely come to FreeBSD, but we really shouldn't trade flexibility and power to make our system attractive to them. My original statement may have sounded a little strange, but I still think that we're dealing with an operating system for a more advanced class of computer users. Everyone can join that advanced class at their free will. But no one can expect icons and strange comic-creatures in animated widnows telling them how to use the disklabel command (yes, this is a reference to this strange help system introduced by MS in Office 97 and up). Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 13:56:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F9837B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 24C9517BE7; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0D515D08; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:56:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:56:40 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Nils Holland Cc: Brett Glass , Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Nils Holland wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 12:10 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: > > > > >Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd > > >really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? > > > > Yes. > > I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short > and precise answers... > > Seriously: How do you imagine it? Throw out the shell and make a GUI only > thing? Will the masses out there ever use an OS where you have to type > something like "find / \! -newer report.tex"? I'm not saying that X or KDE > should not be used, but, as is well known, all GUIs mainly harm > flexibility of a system. How does adding a GUI hurt the flexability of a UNIX-alike? Running X - or Aqua - doesn't magically mean I can't type find . \! -newer report.tex -print, does it? I hope not, because I've done thjings like that on MacOSX boxen. Constraining the user to require that everything be done through a GUI hurts the flexibility of a system, sure. Has anyone suggested that's the right course of action? > My original statement may have sounded a little strange, but I still think > that we're dealing with an operating system for a more advanced class of > computer users. Everyone can join that advanced class at their free will. You seem to think that computer operating systems are either arcane and difficult to use, or are for drooling morons. This seems to be the case, with extant systems, but there's no reason, other than few people have put the effort into it, that you can't have a system that retains all of the power and flexibility of a soemthing like UNIX, but which also has a nice, useful GUI. Apple, and NeXT before them, have done a decent job of building such a system. There not there yet, but they're getting closer. I'm not sure I'd have beleived someone five years ago that tol me my mother (who has called me to ask how to use the VCR) would be able to install a UNIX box from scratch. She's done that now, wtih OSX. There's no technical reason others can't do things like this as well. > But no one can expect icons and strange comic-creatures in animated > widnows telling them how to use the disklabel command (yes, this is a > reference to this strange help system introduced by MS in Office 97 and > up). > Why should you need to use the disklabel command at all, unless you want to do something unusual with the disk? Shouldn't I be able to attach the disk, have a volume daemon see it, ask if I'd like to add it, and give me options to set it up in two or three common (or site specific) manners? Sure the pretty gui may well be running disklabel and friends behind my back, but what do I care? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 14: 4:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp002pub.verizon.net (smtp002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD30037B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp002pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fA1M4Hn11627 Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:04:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41660; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:04:15 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Robinson , Nils Holland , "Walter C. Pelissero" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101140415.B41247@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101125020.04a44100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101125020.04a44100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 12:52:49PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In a way, I wish MS would make up some incompatible non-open (browser alternative) product and take the MS-loving clone-people away from the internet entirely. As long as I'm wishing, maybe they could take Word with them too. If people stopped trying to duct tape everything imaginable to browsers, that wouldn't hurt my feelings either. (When was the internet redefine to mean that everything has to be crammed into the http protocol?) When did people get lazy and start thinking that they could write workable software without having to port it to each platform they expected it to run on? I often think this is a much bigger issue than the OS/GNU/CS debate. Any good quality open source OS, when supplied with a working compiler, can take you to the edge of your abilities as a (new) programmer.(?) The OS is not going to let you down. And once you've advanced far enough as a programmer that you start to find deficiencies, you can go look into the source and see if there is anything you can do to help.(?) What can we do to make this even more true? Do other people even value FreeBSD for this reason? When Sun took their set-top box language, and tried to force a paradigm shift, what did they accomplish, if anything? Is Java the next Navigator? Are C, C++, and Perl the only languages to worth bothering with in the long term? Thanks, [RC] On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 12:52:49PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:59 AM 11/1/2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > > >Had you considered that there was a load of Javascript or even Java that was > >supposed to be running on your machine to help keep the underlying > >functionality of the site going, and that because you're not running it, you > >are going to cause problems for yourself, and potentially for the site > >admins? > > I have the right to choose what runs and does not run on my machine. I > generally turn off Java and JavaScript because both are usually > used to add needless and wasteful flash to Websites at the expense > of worthwhile content. > > >Browser compatability testing, believe it or not, is often not there > >entirely for your sake - it's sometimes there for people like us, on the > >backend. It's to ensure that the javascript and Java VM stuff is where you > >expect it to be (in the browser) and that it behaves the way you expect it > >to behave. This is particularly important in banking applications. > > Java and JavaScript are both so unreliable and insecure that it is > very important, in banking applications, NOT to use either. > > --Brett GLass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 14:28:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4225A37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8CF4BCAA; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19718; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:23 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA1MQpC53422; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:26:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nils Holland Cc: , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Nov 2001 14:26:50 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Message-ID: Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland writes: > Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd > really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? FreeBSD, even with > a "nice" KDE desktop, is not for everyone, neither should it be for > everyone! So put it into words. Who should it be for? Geniuses who think like computers and those who like to spend days configuring (and learning about) things which M$ and Apple users can configure in a few minutes or seconds (and often needn't bother to learn about at all)? Why shouldn't it be for "the rest of us", who would like to learn and do other things? Of course, the first instinct is that it should be for the people who develop and support it. But I doubt that is a good plan. More later. I think "mass acceptance" would be a worthy goal, not inconsistent with "good OS" (good community, good app devel env, good server, etc), but I recognize that FreeBSD developers have more important things to work on. But any OS does need to worry about who is going to accept the OS and consider that when making design decisions. "Mass" is going to far, but "FreeBSD developers and server administrators" is not going far enough if the OS is going to avoid a slide into oblivion, especially as good-enough-and-less-time-consuming alternatives become available. An OS has to have users to survive; I suspect that most developers do so partly to improve their use of the OS. If there were few users, only a very few developers would have the incentive to develop, even those who do it mostly for ego/enjoyment. Free OSes would have many more users AND developers, and would be a much better OS to use, if developers had devoted a lot of thought to usability and development teamwork instead of adding thousands of little-needed programs and command options. Of course, they should have the freedom to do what they want. I'm just saying that they should want to make an OS that is quick to learn and easy to use. Otherwise, if they don't develop such an OS, too many people will be jumping ship and the future will be short, as commercial OSes, after all these years, finally mature to the good-enough performance level, while retaining and improving their usability features. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 14:29: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE63C37B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA4631; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:28:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:28:41 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > The masses can surely come to FreeBSD, but we really shouldn't trade > flexibility and power to make our system attractive to them. I couldn't have said it better myself. But it's odd that you said it in the middle of your post arguing that FreeBSD should not have mass acceptance. You err when you equate "mass acceptance" with "point-and-click-only". We CAN have mass acceptance while keeping all our flexibility and power. The two things holding FreeBSD (and other Unix-like systems) back from "mass" acceptance are installation/administration, manufacturer support, and application base. We can't fix the latter two directly, but they will solve themselves in time. But the first is very close to being resolved right now! The main problem with the installer and admin tools is that the "mass" public perceives them as difficult. But they are not difficult. Other than the initial kernel config screen, the installer is very straight forward, well documented, and streamlined. It could use some polishing on spots, but by and large it is much more usable than the Mandrake or SuSE installers. It would be very hard to make it any easier without taking away the flexibility. Instead of trying to put sugar in the medicine, perhaps we should be educating the patient that medicine tastes bad but is good for you. Administering a system is not easy, and no matter how much GUI fluff you throw on top of it, it will never be easy. But it is not difficult, especially for single-user desktop systems. We should be forthright and admit that administering FreeBSD is not easy. We don't have to win over every single user in order to have "mass acceptance". Frankly, we don't need those users who won't bother expending enough effort to lift their fingers off the mouse. They may be the Microsoft target audience, and they may represent the editorial staffs of ZDNet and C|NET, but they aren't the majority. That is not to say that we should shun the GUI. I think a sysinstall module for KDE would be awesome! But we don't have to be an all-or-nothing OS. We don't have to be a GUI-only system like what many Linux distros are trying to be. But neither do we have to be the CLI only system that everyone thinks we are. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 15: 8:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE6837B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-141.wobline.de [212.68.69.149]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1N82N30111; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:08:02 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1NAN724491; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:10:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1N7mI54169; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:08:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:07:48 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011101235550.R54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1 Nov 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > So put it into words. Who should it be for? Geniuses who think like > computers and those who like to spend days configuring (and learning > about) things which M$ and Apple users can configure in a few minutes or > seconds (and often needn't bother to learn about at all)? Why shouldn't > it be for "the rest of us", who would like to learn and do other things? It should be for users who would like to learn. As I have said, FreeBSD is a really flexible operating system which virtually has no limits when it comes to do things. Windows is limited only so far as the icons take you. The difference is this: Microsoft shoves everything up the users a**, trying to make their software (supposedly) as easy as possible to use. However, it's still true that if you build a fool-proof system, only fools will want to use it. The challenge we are probably facing is *not* creating animated paper clips that seem to assume that all users are stupid. The challenge we are facing is creating something that is very flexible and free to be used by anyone who wants to use it. FreeBSD can be very easy to use even for beginners when you install X and KDE / Gnome, but users will just have to accept that they will have to do at least a bit of learning if they want to get their hooks on advanced features. That's just the way it is. Mass aceptance can be achieved in two ways: Either copy what the mass uses today and try to make them use your copy (seems that Microsoft likes that method), or make the masses aware what we have to offer. The second is the better method, IMHO. In my local area, I have introduced quite a few people who were disappointed with their (Windows) system to FreeBSD. What seemed hard to understand for them at first quickly became something they love. Indeed, we *have* to offer something that is significantly different (and better) than Windows, because if we would simply produce a copy of Windows - well, then why should people want to use our software anyway? Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 15:40:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DF737B406; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-179.wobline.de [212.68.69.187]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1NdxN31840; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:39:59 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1NgN724608; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:42:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1NePI54207; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:40:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:40:25 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: David Johnson Cc: Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> Message-ID: <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, David Johnson wrote: > > The masses can surely come to FreeBSD, but we really shouldn't trade > > flexibility and power to make our system attractive to them. > > I couldn't have said it better myself. But it's odd that you said it in > the middle of your post arguing that FreeBSD should not have mass > acceptance. You err when you equate "mass acceptance" with > "point-and-click-only". It *should* have mass acceptance! If what I said previously sounded different, then it was definately not what I wanted to say. Sorry, it's very late here already ;-) I basically only wanted to say that we do not need to copy Microsoft or anyone else, but instead *get the word out* wbout what we have to offer. > The main problem with the installer and admin tools is that the "mass" > public perceives them as difficult. But they are not difficult. Other > than the initial kernel config screen, the installer is very straight > forward, well documented, and streamlined. It could use some polishing > on spots, but by and large it is much more usable than the Mandrake or > SuSE installers. It would be very hard to make it any easier without > taking away the flexibility. I recently tested the FreeBSD installer on my brother. I let him sit in front of a computer, handed him a FreeBSD CD and told him to try to set it up. He had no previous FreeBSD / Unix experience, but he had s rather good overall understanding of computers. As I observed, he managed to install FreeBSD just fine. It did of course take longer than if someone who had used FreeBSD for years had done it, but it worked in the end. In the end, my brother said that he didn't find the FreeBSD installer much harder to use than the Windows 98 setup, and he specifically said he liked the flexibility of the installer and the complete control over the setup he had. I guess there are people for whom the FreeBSD install process is too hard, but for these people installing Windows would be too hard as well (yes, I have seen such people...) However, I would like to claim that a user who can install Windows can install FreeBSD as well. > Instead of trying to put sugar in the medicine, perhaps we should be > educating the patient that medicine tastes bad but is good for you. > Administering a system is not easy, and no matter how much GUI fluff you > throw on top of it, it will never be easy. But it is not difficult, > especially for single-user desktop systems. We should be forthright and > admit that administering FreeBSD is not easy. We don't have to win over > every single user in order to have "mass acceptance". Frankly, we don't > need those users who won't bother expending enough effort to lift their > fingers off the mouse. They may be the Microsoft target audience, and > they may represent the editorial staffs of ZDNet and C|NET, but they > aren't the majority. I really agree once again! That's exactly what I have been trying to say, but seemingly didn't manage to do too well. In order to accept mass acceptance, we need to educate the masses. It works: At my school, I taught fellow students about *nix computer systems, taking FreeBSD as an example because it's what I use. In the beginning, the students (most of which used their computers only to play games) seemed a little confused. But it didn't take me long to convince them that they are about to aquire freedom! In the end, most of them started to like FreeBSD's flexibility, so that they wanted to me to give them a copy for their home computer. As someone who is known to "be into" computers in my area, I have often helped people and even companies with their problems, and wherever possible, I advocated FreeBSD, often successfully. *THAT* is probably what we FreeBSD users have to do, and that's the only way how we can gain mass acceptance. There will always be people who do not want to use FreeBSD, but if it weren't that way, something would be wrong. > That is not to say that we should shun the GUI. I think a sysinstall > module for KDE would be awesome! But we don't have to be an > all-or-nothing OS. We don't have to be a GUI-only system like what many > Linux distros are trying to be. But neither do we have to be the CLI > only system that everyone thinks we are. I guess the point can be summed up as this. Let's say (which is even probably true) there are three ways of doing things: commands (shell), text-based menu systems (sysinstall) and GUIs (X11/KDE). Microsoft seems to think that a GUI is the only thing their users can handle, and so the only thing they give their users *is* a GUI. Linux distros seem - at least to a certain extend - start to think the same way. For FreeBSD, I think the way to go is extremely simple: Offer support for *all* the possible ways! That means: Things should as far as possible be performable by *shell* and *GUI*. That's just what I mean with flexibility. I want a system that I can fully operate only by entering commands in text-mode, and I want a system that can be operated using a GUI. Ideally, I would like this system to be freely available. All of this added together *is* basically what FreeBSD stands for today: I tend to work at the console in text mode most of the time (using pine right now), but I could use the *SAME* operating system to set up our family computer with a nice graphical desktop (KDE) so that the rest of the family can use it. That's just what I call flexibility, and that's what makes FreeBSD as good as it is today. It's this flexibility, the right (and possibility) to choose that is IMHO the best thing we have to gain mass acceptance. We cannot take over the TV stations and broadcast our ads, just as Microsoft has done for the WinXP release. We can, however, advocate the use of FreeBSD. We cannot run advertising on TV, but personally recommending an operating system to local people or people on the Internet and personally helping these peoples with their questions and possibly problems is something that we can do. And by doing that, our system will definately become more and more known among the public. Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 15:41:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E5537B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18455; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:40:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101163902.043e2db0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:40:43 -0700 To: Nils Holland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , In-Reply-To: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101131856.04a4b960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:54 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short >and precise answers... Sorry, but you asked a "yes or no" question. That left two possible answers. ;-) >Seriously: How do you imagine it? Throw out the shell and make a GUI only >thing? Why? Even Apple, king of GUIs for naive users, didn't do that. >Will the masses out there ever use an OS where you have to type >something like "find / \! -newer report.tex"? Where you HAVE to type it? No. Where you CAN type it? Sure. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 15:50:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C56D37B40C for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 35705 invoked by uid 100); 1 Nov 2001 23:50:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15329.57300.97759.672170@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:50:44 -0600 To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson types: [Major Snip] > Bank: And when these user's browsers get IE-compatible, we can let them back > in? > > Paul: Yes. > > Bank: Do all of this, otherwise we don't pay you... > > Paul: OK. And later... Bank: Why are we being sued by The National Federation for the Blind? Me: Because in forcing users to get IE-compatible browsers, we made our web site inaccessible to everyone who was blind. AOL has already settled with the NFB out of court, and now has a blind-accessible site. The US has ruled that the ADA applies to any site is in any way federally funded. The question of whether or not it applies to a commercial site like a bank is still open, and hinges on whether or not a commercial web site is a "public place of business" as defined by the ADA. And yes, none of this is relevant if you aren't in the US. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 15:52:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDB6437B408 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 35783 invoked by uid 100); 1 Nov 2001 23:52:22 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15329.57398.237602.801434@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:52:22 -0600 To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Supporting MS IE (was Re: NatWest? no thanks) In-Reply-To: <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson types: > Also, you seem to imply that we should all support all browsers. That's rot, > and you know it is. Absolutely right. You should only support browsers that follow the W3C's standards. In the real world, you have to work around MSIE's bugs as well, but that's life. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 15:53:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560BA37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA7BC; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:53:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE1E08E.88E78956@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 15:53:50 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > It *should* have mass acceptance! If what I said previously sounded > different, then it was definately not what I wanted to say. Sorry, it's > very late here already ;-) I basically only wanted to say that we do not > need to copy Microsoft or anyone else, but instead *get the word out* > wbout what we have to offer. I apologize for misunderstanding you. The result of either too much candy or too little beer :-) David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 15:58:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56B937B405; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-213.wobline.de [212.68.69.224]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA1NwUN32663; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:58:30 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA200r724709; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:00:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1NwLI54344; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:58:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:58:21 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101163902.043e2db0@localhost> Message-ID: <20011102004644.I54336-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short > >and precise answers... > > Sorry, but you asked a "yes or no" question. That left two possible > answers. ;-) That reminds me of the Enlish lessons at school. When asked a question by the teacher, you may not simply respond with "yes" or "no", but you have to say somthing like "yes, I am" or "no, I'm not". Hmm, wait, I guess this is off topic - I always tend to let myself get carried away when writing eMails at 0:48... Now, where were we? > >Will the masses out there ever use an OS where you have to type > >something like "find / \! -newer report.tex"? > > Where you HAVE to type it? No. Where you CAN type it? Sure. Hmm, seems sane. Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say. The *CAN* makes the difference. On MS OSes, you can do most (all?) things only by clicking. Here, on *nix systems, you have the choice if you want to type or click. That's just fine. It's a form of freedom, and it makes the system much more flexible. The stuff I wrote before probably sounded so strange because I always tend to fear that when someone talks about mass acceptance, the motivation behind saying that is trying to turn the operating system being talked about (in this case, FreeBSD) into some Windows clone. I really wouldn't want that. Just as I wouldn't want a system where I am forced to type, I wouldn't want a system where I am forced to click either. I want a system that allows me to do both, and I think I have that system and am using it right now. Of course, spreading the word about FreeBSD is good. Taking new user's feedback into account when it comes to the system design cannot hurt either, as long as the needs of experienced users are not influenced in a bad way. Unix systems have long been known for their flexibility, and I believe that it's that flexibility that destinguishes us from the "king in the field", and that is our most powerful weapon. As I have said in a message sent about three minutes ago, it's a bad idea to sit just hear and argue about "mass acceptance" or banks that block access to their site (although these discussions tend to be funny sometimes). It's a better idea to make the public aware of what we have to offer - only that can boost our popularity. Enough for today. I hope that I have been able to sort out the things I have said which lead to a little protest earlier. If not, I'll be back to reply to your mails after about 8 hours of sleep -> shutdown -h now Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 16:37:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (catflap.bishopston.net [24.67.101.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E0237B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:37:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA29624; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:37:33 GMT (envelope-from ) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:37:33 GMT From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200111020037.AAA29624@bishopston.net> To: walter@pelissero.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <15327.61513.532144.65792@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Walter Pelissero wrote: > Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html "My bank promised online internet access to my account. Then what happened ? ...... You guessed it.... My bank now requires... A TRENDY BROWSER [ ha ha ha ha ha ]" (Apologies to those outside the UK, or those without a TV) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 16:42:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saxa.georgetown.edu (saxa.georgetown.edu [141.161.20.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E2337B40A for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from saxa.georgetown.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by saxa.georgetown.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -2) with ESMTP id fA20gW9B001264 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:42:32 -0500 From: paul@saxa.georgetown.edu Received: from localhost (paul@localhost) by saxa.georgetown.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -2) with ESMTP id fA20gWwe001260 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:42:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:42:32 -0500 (EST) To: Subject: Email hosting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can anyone recommend an email hosting service (company)? My only strict requirements are imap and web login, and at least 98.x reliability/uptime. Pluses would be: - At least 10 addresses at none or marginal extra cost, each with it's own mailbox, not aliases. - Email forwarding and autoreponder - Around 10mb/account - Possibility of user@subdomain.domain.dom addresses Price is a factor, moreso being for personal use, but i'd rather that you don't consider that in your responses. btw i know that i can easily host this myself, but my connection's characterstics don't allow for this. (in case anyone was going to suggest that). thanks :) -P- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 17:14:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (catflap.bishopston.net [24.67.101.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D06637B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28852; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:14:08 GMT (envelope-from ) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:14:08 GMT From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200111020114.BAA28852@bishopston.net> To: achornback@worldnet.att.net, paul@akita.co.uk Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, nils@tisys.org In-Reply-To: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul wrote: [ 8< ] > That is really a client issue - if the client says that the site will be > accessed from MS platforms, and for whatever reason they want to make sure > that everything is as compatible as possible out of the box, you have to > look to using MS technology. In the case of websites, anybody with a copy of > analog looking after a busy mainstream site can see that MS IE is the > predominant browser, and as such is the benchmark 'standard' browser you put > the most effort into developing the site for. [ 8< ] Isn't it the responsibility of the designer to explain that all browsers should work, when the code is clean ? Not directed personally at you, but I've seen loads of sites that "only" work in IE not because of extra "MS features" but simply because their HTML etc. is wrong. Often this is due to badly designed "HTML editors", and although I'm not knocking people with no technical knowledge using them to put up a web page, I feel that any acceptance of this by people who should know better will only allow the situation to get worse.. If people realised their HTML editor was not producing valid results for some people, it may persuade them to use another editor, or for the company concerned to clean up their editor somewhat. None of this requires the "man in the street" to get technically savvy, but maybe we can gently remove some of his ignorance. Anyway, as you no doubt know, Microsoft recently blocked many browsers from its MSN portal.. There was a big fuss made, and Microsoft backed down, so maybe the users of non-IE have a bigger voice than you think ? As CNET reports: | Despite Microsoft critics' suspicion about the reason behind the | browser lockout--and its timing--the incident had an unintended | consequence: It became a selling point for competing browsers. | The dispute made headlines in newspapers around the world and was | covered by Web sites in multiple languages with links to competing | browsers, resulting in a torrent of new customers for the smaller | companies. Full report here: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7739670.html?tag=tp_pr Regards, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 18: 3:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6074E37B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA5403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:03:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE1FEEC.BA90E726@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:03:24 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Jones Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <200111020114.BAA28852@bishopston.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Jones wrote: > Isn't it the responsibility of the designer to explain that all browsers > should work, when the code is clean ? > ... > None of this requires the "man in the street" to get technically savvy, > but maybe we can gently remove some of his ignorance. The businessman needs to get technically savvy. People who sell automobiles know about automobiles. People who sell books know about books. People who sell beer know about beer. It's time that people who sell computers, software, or information services know about computers, software and information services. It is unreasonable for a company to support every single operating system in existance. But it is reasonable that they support standards. A banking site that uses standard HTML and standard CGI interfaces is going to be accessible by any browser from IExplorer on down to Lynx. The best solution to these types of problems is to take your business elsewhere, -and- let them know why. Politely of course. Don't just tell the webmaster. Tell the bank president. They won't hurt from this lost revenue, but eventually they'll figure out that bank presidents shouldn't be taking orders from their webmasters. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 18: 8:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2134B37B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:08:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20564; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:07:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:07:33 -0700 To: Jamie Jones , achornback@worldnet.att.net, paul@akita.co.uk From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, nils@tisys.org In-Reply-To: <200111020114.BAA28852@bishopston.net> References: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:14 PM 11/1/2001, Jamie Jones wrote: >Anyway, as you no doubt know, Microsoft recently blocked many browsers >from its MSN portal.. There was a big fuss made, and Microsoft backed >down, No, it actually did NOT back down. With some alternative browsers, such as Opera, you can access some of the pages but not others. And with a text-based browser, you still can't get in at all. This is a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 18:35:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DD09937B406 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 40201 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 02:35:26 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15330.1646.946959.174967@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:35:26 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> References: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 06:14 PM 11/1/2001, Jamie Jones wrote: > >Anyway, as you no doubt know, Microsoft recently blocked many browsers > >from its MSN portal.. There was a big fuss made, and Microsoft backed > >down, > No, it actually did NOT back down. With some alternative browsers, such > as Opera, you can access some of the pages but not others. And with > a text-based browser, you still can't get in at all. This is a violation > of the Americans with Disabilities Act. That isn't clear for two reasons. #1) It has as yet to be established that the ADA applies to commercial web sites. It *does* apply to all web sites run with public funds. As I noted elsewhere, the argument hinges on whether or not a web site is a "public place of business" as defined by the act. #2) MSIE has a whole slew of accessibility options. If those are sufficient to allow all disabled people to access the web site, then they satisfy the act. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 19: 0:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chris.class.com (chris.class.com [207.91.36.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DB437B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cjackson@localhost) by chris.class.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA230a982640; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:00:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cjackson) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:00:36 -0600 From: Chris To: Mike Meyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011101210036.A82610@class.com> References: <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <15330.1646.946959.174967@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15330.1646.946959.174967@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 08:35:26PM -0600 X-Whaa: You read headers? X-Operating-System: FreeBSD chris.class.com 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 08:35:26PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > That isn't clear for two reasons. > > #1) It has as yet to be established that the ADA applies to commercial > web sites. It *does* apply to all web sites run with public funds. > As I noted elsewhere, the argument hinges on whether or not a web site > is a "public place of business" as defined by the act. > > #2) MSIE has a whole slew of accessibility options. If those are > sufficient to allow all disabled people to access the web site, > then they satisfy the act. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. I think that this will be addressed in the near future, and will require commercial sites to comply with ADA. Consider that restaurants are required to be in compliance, and they aren't the recipient of any government disbursed funds... Either ADA will be modified to mollify its opponents, or websites will start being targeted for non-compliance more frequently. -- Chris Jackson Network Administrator class.com "A man, a plan, a canal, panama." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 21:33:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net (raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F52637B401 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.228.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.228] helo=blossom.cjclark.org) by raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zWwc-0003xe-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 21:33:18 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA25RYO06603; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:27:21 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Lamont Granquist , Stephen Montgomery-Smith , "Nicpon, John" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! Message-ID: <20011101212721.F4360@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <3BE08283.EC81A8ED@math.missouri.edu> <20011031170629.C865-100000@coredump.scriptkiddie.org> <20011101023707.E900@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011101023707.E900@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 02:37:07AM +0000 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 02:37:07AM +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 05:20:33PM -0800, Lamont Granquist wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote: > > > > "Nicpon, John" wrote: > > > > > > > > Please specifically define where data goes that is sent to /dev/null > > > > > > Answer 1. Data is not like energy. There is no "conservation of data" > > > law. So the data simply "disappears". > > > > Doesn't thermodynamics second law actually imply that data has to > > disappear and that with the heat death of the universe data will be at a > > minimum? For meaningful data to exist there needs to be order, while the > > 2nd law requires that systems evolve to less ordered states. > > Maybe, but the second law of thermodynamics is incorrect so who knows? Ooh. Flamebait. As someone who did his academics in chemical engineering, how can I resist? It is? Did you get your perpetual motion machine to work? -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 21:35:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D0937B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22669; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:34:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:33:27 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15330.1646.946959.174967@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:35 PM 11/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >#1) It has as yet to be established that the ADA applies to commercial > web sites. It applies to all "public accommodations." >#2) MSIE has a whole slew of accessibility options. Doesn't matter. You can't require a disabled person to have a particular kind of car, or a wheelchair rather than a walker, etc. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 21:49:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D99A37B401 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.138.228.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.138.228] helo=blossom.cjclark.org) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zXCg-00017P-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 21:49:25 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA25lWx06652; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:47:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:47:20 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Lamont Granquist Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith , "Nicpon, John" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! Message-ID: <20011101214720.G4360@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <3BE08283.EC81A8ED@math.missouri.edu> <20011031170629.C865-100000@coredump.scriptkiddie.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011031170629.C865-100000@coredump.scriptkiddie.org>; from lamont@scriptkiddie.org on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 05:20:33PM -0800 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 05:20:33PM -0800, Lamont Granquist wrote: > > > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote: > > > "Nicpon, John" wrote: > > > > > > Please specifically define where data goes that is sent to /dev/null > > > > Answer 1. Data is not like energy. There is no "conservation of data" > > law. So the data simply "disappears". > > Doesn't thermodynamics second law actually imply that data has to > disappear and that with the heat death of the universe data will be at a > minimum? For meaningful data to exist there needs to be order, while the > 2nd law requires that systems evolve to less ordered states. The 2nd law does not require that systems must evolve to less ordered states. The 2nd law says that the entropy of an isolated system can never decrease. A fine distinction, but important. > The only uncertainty about this that I've got is that random systems can > actually be very dense with data. Think about a compressed and encrypted > file, which should be indistinguishable from /dev/random output. > > I guess the difference between those two is that there is only a single > state which validly represents the comprssed and encrypted file. The distinction is that the compressed and encrypted file is _not_ a random string of bits. Yes, it may appear random and pass statistical tests for "randomness," but that does not mean it is random. Another frequent example is the digits of pi (or any other transcendental number), 3 1 4 1 ... If you were to run all of your statistical tests on that set of numbers, it would appear to be random. But it is not. If you tell me any arbitrary position in the bit stream, I can tell you what the next value will be. Not random. > Contribute to the Heat Death of the Universe! pipe everything to /dev/null! Actually, though it may be counter-intuituve, the best way to add to hasten the Heat Death is to _save_ data. It takes work (in the thermodynamic sense) to save data (to disk, to memory, or to even to your brain). The efficiency of getting the work done is where the entropy is seriously increased. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 22: 7:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952F237B401; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA267QT75370; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nils Holland" , "Paul Robinson" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:07:26 -0800 Message-ID: <003201c16364$a52920e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20011101193854.K2921-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Nils Holland >Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:10 AM >Let's look back again: I think this thread was started because some bank >rejected access to their site for non-MS systems for no technical reasons. >What has been said in this thread today has very little to do with that >basic and simple fact. I guess we let ourselves get carried away quite a >little. However, it was still funny ;-) Nils, don't spoil the fun with a bit of sense now! ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 22:27:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9AF3337B403 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 45674 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 06:27:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15330.15546.29008.424784@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:27:06 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 07:35 PM 11/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >#1) It has as yet to be established that the ADA applies to commercial > > web sites. > It applies to all "public accommodations." The ADA actually applies to "physical places of public accomodation". In Hooks vs. OKBridge, the US District Court for the Western District of Texas ruled that the ADA doesn't apply to a web site because a web site isn't a "physical place". On appeal, the Fifth Circuit ducked the issue by ruling that OKBridge hadn't violated the ADA for reason unrelated to whether or not the ADA applied to the web site. Details at . If someone knows of a ruling that establishes that the ADA applies to commercial web sites, I'd appreciate a reference. > >#2) MSIE has a whole slew of accessibility options. > Doesn't matter. You can't require a disabled person to have a > particular kind of car, or a wheelchair rather than a walker, > etc. If you require everyone to use IE whether disabled or not, you're clearly not discriminating against the disabled if IE can accomodate them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 1 22:34:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E198837B403; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA26YLT75450; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nils Holland" , "Brett Glass" Cc: "Paul Robinson" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:34:20 -0800 Message-ID: <003a01c16368$67667100$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20011101214159.C27349-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Nils Holland >Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:55 PM >To: Brett Glass >Cc: Paul Robinson; Andrew C. Hornback; chat@FreeBSD.ORG; >advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > > >On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >> At 12:10 PM 11/1/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >> >> >Speaking neither for the FreeBSD Project, nor for the OSS movement, I'd >> >really like to ask if we really *want* mass acceptance? >> >> Yes. > >I love it when people try to minimize my bandwidth costs by sending short >and precise answers... > > >My original statement may have sounded a little strange, but I still think >that we're dealing with an operating system for a more advanced class of >computer users. Everyone can join that advanced class at their free will. >But no one can expect icons and strange comic-creatures in animated >widnows telling them how to use the disklabel command (yes, this is a >reference to this strange help system introduced by MS in Office 97 and >up). > I really don't think we have to worry about this happening. There is a curve in operation, you see. The X axis is number of installs. The y axis is support demands on developer time. As X grows the curve ramps up very rapidy. Once you hit 50% of market share the support demands on time have consumed 100% of developers time and all development on the software ceases because everyone who is the least bit knowledgeable is too busy answering questions from people that don't know anything. Commercial software packages (like Windows) are able to handle this several ways. First they simply allow lots of bugs in the product. Second they keep removing knobs, switches and other settings mechanism to dumb down the software so that there's less support calls. Last, because they charge money for support, this pushes a lot of the bonehead questions off since now people have to pay for not reading the instructions. As the installed base expands they simply raise the prices for bonehead support (note that Microsoft has long had a policy of NOT charging for support issues that are related to bugs in Windows, those support questions comprise less than 1% of the questions posed to their tech support) until equilibrim is reached again. With free software, because the number of knobs and switches available to be selected, I don't believe that it would be possible to support more than 50% of the market because every setting opportunity increases the number of potential support calls. Look at DNS - under Microsoft it's a simple GUI that has few selections available and doesen't let the user do much. Under UNIX it's a config file that can be written in shorthand, longhand, or a mix and you can imagine that a typical dumb user support call on a DNS zone file problem would probably chew up 5 times the amount of support time for UNIX as the platform vs NT. That's a huge phone bank staffed with people that need to feed themselves and free software doesen't have the revenue stream to support an entire industry of people that do nothing other than read the instructions to morons who pick up the phone and call instead of cracking the instruction manual. Look at cow manure to see what I mean. You would think that of all the things that morons would NOT make phone calls about, manure would be at the top of the list. But the companies that sell it have entire webpages devoted to application instructions and everything else about crap. Now, if the unwashed masses cannot even be trusted to figure out how to spread cow shit around their gardens without hand-holding, how do you expect to get them going with FreeBSD?!?! Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 0:23:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDA037B408; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-136.wobline.de [212.68.69.144]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA28MpN15904; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:22:51 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA28PI726380; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:25:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA28MZf00816; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:23:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:22:35 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Brett Glass , Paul Robinson , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <003a01c16368$67667100$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Look at DNS - under Microsoft it's a simple GUI that has few > selections available and doesen't let the user do much. Under UNIX > it's a config file that can be written in shorthand, longhand, or a > mix and you can imagine that a typical dumb user support call on a DNS > zone file problem would probably chew up 5 times the amount of support > time for UNIX as the platform vs NT. That's a huge phone bank staffed > with people that need to feed themselves and free software doesen't > have the revenue stream to support an entire industry of people that > do nothing other than read the instructions to morons who pick up the > phone and call instead of cracking the instruction manual. That's something that has changed in the industry, and I don't know if it's too good. I mean: When computers were not present in every home, and only real hackers had access to them or even owned one, the world worked much better. I real hacker basically didn't use the computer because he wants to store his recipies in there, but, basically, he uses the computer for the sake that it's a computer. This has changed today, and it seems that the majority of people is unable to learn. I mean, I used a Commodore 64 (originally 1 Mhz, 64 KB RAM, but can be powered up to 20 Mhz, 4 or more MB and even a harddisk) until 1995. When I bought my first PC thereafter, I almost instantly started out in FreeBSD. Back then, I didn't know anything about Unix, but by reading all kinds of things, and by using my beloved trial-and-error approach, I managed to learn the basics rather soon, and by now I think I'm fairly good at it. This kind of learning has always been required when it comes to computers - again, on the Commodore 64, you got a 100 pages handbook which didn't tell you much, and then you had to figure out the rest yourself, which could best be done by buying another, more in-depth book. Looking at Microsoft OSes today, I guess they can be used by almost everyone without much learning. If you set up a FreeBSD box with KDE this is also true for FreeBSD. HOWEVER - make no mistake about it - even though it is possible to start using a system without much learning, which is probably a good thing, there *will always* be learning required if you want to use advanced features. You can use a computer without reading any documentation, but I guess you will have to read it in order to be able to use the computer really effectively. As I said, in the past, computer users were more ready to learn, and I think that made computer users all in all more knowledgable. Today, they want everything to be shoved up their *ss. If that will indeed be good for them in the end can actually be doubted. Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 2:49:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3CC37B40B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 02:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15zbsW-0005VW-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:48:48 +0000 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15zbsg-000Cnt-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:48:58 +0000 Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:48:58 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Nils Holland Cc: David Johnson , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net>; from nils@tisys.org on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 12:40:25AM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15zbsW-0005VW-00*$AK$tgcXlh.GT.DXaoXmzKfww.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Nov 1, Nils Holland wrote: > It *should* have mass acceptance! If what I said previously sounded > different, then it was definately not what I wanted to say. Sorry, it's > very late here already ;-) I basically only wanted to say that we do not > need to copy Microsoft or anyone else, but instead *get the word out* > wbout what we have to offer. That's my point - that sentiment is what needs to be discussed. Let me try and bring this thread back screaming and kicking to being on-topic again, and then let me explain where that little sub-thread went. OK, what I was trying to say, is that perhaps it's not the bank's website that is broken, but our software. Perhaps, just maybe, we should be trying to adopt those standards, even try and make the rendering engines more IE-like so that there is a legitimate reason to say they are being 'facist' when they exclude us. Where we then started swinging off-topic was as to whether we should just sit here on our thrones and shout "we're all great, you're not, drop MS now and come and join us or you're lame", or as to whether we should address all the usability issues around our preferred platform to make the user experience more accomodating for more people. Nobody is talking about moving to an entirely point-and-click interface. OK, you are, but nobody else is. I'm talking about making a situation where I have a copy of Mozilla on my laptop that renders sites designed for IE just like IE would. Where Shockwave and Javascript all behaves the way I would expect it to in IE. Where IE-only tags get parsed and the output rendered correctly. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't do any of that, and we should just tell people that 'our way' is better. If an on-line stores choose to spend 50k on some Actinic-spawned bastard of an e-commerce system, and they realise it will cost another 25k to get it to work with browsers other than IE, like Mozilla and Konqueror, but only 10% of the target market uses those browsers, should they spend the money? Do they not have the right to say "this is the standard we've adopted"? - I don't phone up my ISP and demand that they should let me use UUCP, because I know the standard accepted by nearly everybody who uses mail is SMTP. Same argument. Anyway, I'm shutting up now, as it's quite obvious that everybody thinks I'm wrong for even daring to suggest that MS might actually have a reasonably good product in the form of their browser, and I'm obviously being a heretic when I say that quite frankly, Mozilla and Konqueror don't match up. I expect my inbox will get even more flames now. *sigh*. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 3:12:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A5137B403; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id fA2BCDl45923 ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:12:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA26384 ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:12:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:12:13 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Robinson Cc: Nils Holland , David Johnson , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102121213.D22587@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:48:58AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson said on Nov 2, 2001 at 10:48:58: > That's my point - that sentiment is what needs to be discussed. Let me try > and bring this thread back screaming and kicking to being on-topic again, > and then let me explain where that little sub-thread went. > > OK, what I was trying to say, is that perhaps it's not the bank's website > that is broken, but our software. Perhaps, just maybe, we should be trying > to adopt those standards, even try and make the rendering engines more > IE-like so that there is a legitimate reason to say they are being 'facist' > when they exclude us. As many have pointed out, IE is not a standard. IE is a moving target. The standards come from W3C, of which Microsoft too is a member. > Where we then started swinging off-topic was as to whether we should just > sit here on our thrones and shout "we're all great, you're not, drop MS now > and come and join us or you're lame", or as to whether we should address all > the usability issues around our preferred platform to make the user > experience more accomodating for more people. Or perhaps we can ask the people who maintain these web pages to stick to the W3C standards. (They're paid for it, it's their job, they should know how to do these things.) Then, if Mozilla doesn't support it, we can start cribbing about Mozilla. In fact, I haven't yet come across an online service which didn't work with a recent version of Mozilla. Maybe I'm lucky. But in any case, it suggests to me that it's not all that hard to do it. Other people, more knowledgeable than me, have already said the same thing. > Anyway, I'm shutting up now, as it's quite obvious that everybody thinks I'm > wrong for even daring to suggest that MS might actually have a reasonably > good product in the form of their browser, and I'm obviously being a heretic > when I say that quite frankly, Mozilla and Konqueror don't match up. The problem is not their browser but their extensions. If these extensions are a good idea, let the W3C endorse them -- that's happened before. And incidentally, "whining" about W3C standard compliance probably does help: MS IE reportedly has been improving in standards compliance greatly, and is at least comparable with Mozilla, and most certainly far ahead of Netscape 4.x, which I haven't needed to use for ages now. I'm not sure why MS is supporting standards in this case -- it goes totally against their grain as displayed in every other aspect of their behaviour -- but it could well be the collective global "whining" about it... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 4:42:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EEC237B406; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-214.wobline.de [212.68.69.225]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA2CgEN11501; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:42:14 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2Cii727136; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:44:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2Cg1f01906; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:42:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:42:01 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Paul Robinson Cc: David Johnson , Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011102132845.J1890-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > Nobody is talking about moving to an entirely point-and-click interface. OK, > you are, but nobody else is. I'm talking about making a situation where I > have a copy of Mozilla on my laptop that renders sites designed for IE just > like IE would. Where Shockwave and Javascript all behaves the way I would > expect it to in IE. Where IE-only tags get parsed and the output rendered > correctly. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't do any of that, and > we should just tell people that 'our way' is better. I herewith announce that I may now stop to be active in this thread, but one last response seems neccessary: There *are* open standards that our software (say Mozilla and Konqueror) have adopted. However, it's pretty obvious to me that Microsoft tries to mess up these standards in order for us being unable to catch up (if that is the right word). After all, Microsoft is not implementing things to make the user experience better, but to make users use their products. Assuming that our browsers would be able to do things *exactly* 100% as MSIE does today, then Microsoft would see a threat: "Uhh, the open software folks can do the same as we can, let's cause 'em some trouble!". And tomorrow, Microsoft would mess something new up, probably patent it in order for us to be unable to use it. Next step: MS would tell web programmers that their new technology is *absolutely required*. Our way is indeed better in a sense that I have never seen us blocking out anyone intentionally. If I were involved in Mozilla design, I could implemet a few things that only can be displayed in Mozilla, and then I could make my website use these things. That would create a bad experience for MSIE users. However, I'm not doing that, and the whole open software world doesn't seem to do it. Microsoft does, however, do it all of the time, and that's the point and the explanation why our way is obviously better. If you read about Microsoft's history, then it's impossible to fail to see that they are *not* trying to create a better experience for their users, but that they are trying to block any competitors out. Can we change that? Well, if Microsoft creates and impelemts a new *patented* technology called ActiveCrap, then we could under now circumstances implement it in Mozilla due to licensing problems (well, if we'd pay Microsoft a few million dollars, we could possibly use ActiveCrap). What we can do, however, is offer something similar in an open manner, if it makes sense (releasing an open counterpart to ActiveCrap, called "OpenCrap" is probably a bad idea). More and more people have realized the way Microsoft works, and they are no longer willing to take it. Soon, Microsoft will have two choices: Act like any other responsible company our project, or die. Looking at the past decisions at MS, they will probably choose the second thing... Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 5:14:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pelissero.org (dyn154-32.sftm-212-159.plus.net [212.159.32.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BE837B405; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 05:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wcp@localhost) by pelissero.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id fA2D45r22122; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:04:05 GMT (envelope-from wcp) Message-ID: <15330.39364.356654.273742@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:04:04 +0000 From: "Walter C. Pelissero" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011101140415.B41247@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101125020.04a44100@localhost> <20011101140415.B41247@darkstar.gte.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: walter@pelissero.org X-Attribution: WP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark writes: > In a way, I wish MS would make up some incompatible non-open > (browser alternative) product and take the MS-loving > clone-people away from the internet entirely. They already tried. Before Mr Gates realized that Internet was the way to go. It was called MSN (not the current incarnation) and toward the end, to keep the few customers, they had to provide an Internet gateway. More than an Internet clone I think it was an AOL clone, supposedly meant to steal market shares to AOL. It was a close circuit; the information you could get from it was coming from Microsoft. Fortunately, due to lack of content, people abandoned MSN for the Real Thing. I'm afraid, if Microsoft introduced a radical incompatibility in its Web technology now, we all would face the problem of conforming to yet another silly "de facto" standard. Yes, Internet Explorer is not a standard (as some people like to belive), it's just the most ubiquitous browser. This is called "de facto standard". Which just means many people use it or many producers adopted it (better named "industry standard"). Nothing else. A real standard is what goes through a standardization process in a committee set up by a respectable, neutral, possibly international organization. ANSI, IEEE, ISO to name a few. A real standard is meant to save design efforts and produce a broad agreement among implementors so that their products will be interoperable or compatible. This should as well guarantee a long(er) lasting technology that is good for the producer and for the end user. A de facto standard doesn't mean anything of all this. (How often the Word document format has been modified in a totally incompatible way?) Microsoft can introduce _de facto_ standards to their will. They just need to burn some million dollars in a marketing campaign and the hypnotized masses in front of a TV screen will follow. That's, I guess, understandable and acceptable (sort of). Less acceptable is that this kind of misinformation is spreading into technical areas where people are supposed to know what they are talking about. They are supposed to distinguish a standard from commercial hype and they are supposed to advise less informed people (PHB) about this subtle but substantial distinctions. -- walter pelissero http://www.pelissero.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 6:53:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F01B437B421 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8583 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 14:53:09 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cx443070b) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 14:53:09 -0000 Message-ID: <001f01c163ae$1f2ebaa0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Paul Robinson" , "Nils Holland" Cc: "David Johnson" , "Brett Glass" , , References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:53:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Where we then started swinging off-topic was as to whether we should just > sit here on our thrones and shout "we're all great, you're not, drop MS now > and come and join us or you're lame" You could have just said "linux" in place of this entire paragraph. > Anyway, I'm shutting up now, as it's quite obvious that everybody thinks I'm > wrong for even daring to suggest that MS might actually have a reasonably > good product in the form of their browser, and I'm obviously being a heretic > when I say that quite frankly, Mozilla and Konqueror don't match up. I agree with you completely. I've had _dreams_ of the day when I can install IE 5 or 6 under BSD. Maybe I'd actually stop thinking of BSD-as-a-desktop as a joke. FreeBSD makes a beautiful server, and I would use nothing else. But as a desktop, if we resist emulating Microsoft in any way, it's only our loss. Microsoft didn't become the king of the desktop by introducing some radical design. They took the best crap out of the others and combined them to make something people would use. You can argue that it was all business tactics and whatnot, but I remember the lines of people fighting over copies of Windows 95 back in the day. Emulate successful people to gain some market share, and don't diverge from the mainstream until you have the market share to back it up. Like it or not, that's success. I don't really care either way. I want to see FreeBSD promoted as an enterprise level server and be noticed by IBM, HP, and other enterprise solution resellers. Windows 2000 Professional is my desktop, and a fine desktop it is. Lets focus on our strengths. All of the software you guys are talking about is GNU/Linux stuff, and they obviously are working on making it a desktop, even if their attempts and their attitudes are sometimes laughable. If they are successful and produce a set of packages that make a worthy desktop to compete with Windows, poof, we have one too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 7:43: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4637537B406; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-133.wobline.de [212.68.69.141]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA2FgfN30686; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:42:41 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2FjB727736; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:45:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2Fgjr00596; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:42:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:42:45 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Paul Robinson , David Johnson , Brett Glass , , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <001f01c163ae$1f2ebaa0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> Message-ID: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > FreeBSD makes a beautiful server, and I would use nothing else. But as a > desktop, if we resist emulating Microsoft in any way, it's only our loss. > Microsoft didn't become the king of the desktop by introducing some radical > design. They took the best crap out of the others and combined them to make > something people would use. Hmm, forcing computer manufacturers to install their system is what made them successful - not very much more. If you turn on your TV set and have a look at CNN, you should see what I mean... > You can argue that it was all business tactics and whatnot, but I > remember the lines of people fighting over copies of Windows 95 back > in the day. With many millons of dollars for marketing and a few easy psychological tricks, I could get people to throw away their current PC and make them buy an 8 bit machine with 64 KB of RAM instead. Of course, I would not talk about the bits and the RAM, but I'd talk about easy to use, I'd mention the words "total cost of ownership", maybe something like "standard" - yes, all that stuff that sounds good. A few good looking TV spots will be helpful too. And then, I'd present *myself* as the best marketing tool, just like Bill Gates is Microsoft's mascot now (we have a daemon, they have a Gates). Oh, would my 8 bit machine sell fine!!! Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 8:12:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF0A37B407; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:12:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA2GFum39702; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:15:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:15:56 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102171556.A38776@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak References: <001f01c163ae$1f2ebaa0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland [Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:42:45PM +0100]: > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: [cut] > daemon, they have a Gates). Oh, would my 8 bit machine sell fine!!! Do me a favor, and: a) promote Timex 2048 if you decide to do it, b) end this OT discussion. -- [ Michal Pasternak doc@lublin.t1.pl +48606570000 ] [ sklepy internetowe, bazy danych, programy na zamówienie ] [ . .. ..- .- . .. http://lublin.t1.pl . .-. .--.. . . .- ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 8:15:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11504.mail.yahoo.com (web11504.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 32C4737B407 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:15:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011102161519.40762.qmail@web11504.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.68.128.36] by web11504.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:15:19 PST Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:15:19 -0800 (PST) From: Fabio Miranda Subject: struct hostent To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, i am coding a small c program in order to learn network programming: main(int argc, char *argv[]){ struct hostent *host; .... if((host=gethostbyname(argv[1])=NULL)){ perror("gethostbyname"); exit(-1);} /* now, i want to print out all the hostent struct information */ printf("struct hostent{\n"); printf("char *h_name: %s", host->h_name); printf("char **h_aliases:%s\n", host->h_length); printf("int h_addrtype: %d\n", host->h_addrtype); printf("int h_length: %d\n", host->h_length); printf("char **h_addr_list: %d\n", host->h_addr_list); } } This program core dumped, it may crash because i am trying to print an char array (h_addr_list, right?), I want to know how can i print all the information store in a struct hostent?, especiality the ip address. thanks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 8:20: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5046337B407 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8887 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 16:19:51 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cx443070c) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 16:19:51 -0000 Message-ID: <001701c163ba$3d9709a0$018410ac@cx443070c> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Nils Holland" Cc: "Paul Robinson" , "David Johnson" , "Brett Glass" , , References: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:19:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hmm, forcing computer manufacturers to install their system is what made > them successful - not very much more. If you turn on your TV set and have > a look at CNN, you should see what I mean... And I assume they enslaved those people charging into the store to buy Windows 95 right ? Apparently they didn't get it preinstalled. > With many millons of dollars for marketing and a few easy psychological > tricks, I could get people to throw away their current PC and make them > buy an 8 bit machine with 64 KB of RAM instead. Of course, I would not > talk about the bits and the RAM, but I'd talk about easy to use, I'd > mention the words "total cost of ownership", maybe something like > "standard" - yes, all that stuff that sounds good. A few good looking TV > spots will be helpful too. And then, I'd present *myself* as the best > marketing tool, just like Bill Gates is Microsoft's mascot now (we have a > daemon, they have a Gates). Oh, would my 8 bit machine sell fine!!! (a) You're implying that Windows has no technical merits to stand on, that it's all marketing. I would simply ask you this: Is Windows combined with Office not the most productive desktop for an ignorant office worker ? Don't rant about crashing and tech support, I'm talking about comparing a person sat down on a computer running Windows vs. Mac OS vs. any of the Unix desktops. You can argue for Mac OS, but that's something of a lost cause in the workplace. Windows and Office being the most productive desktop gives them technical merit, and therefore any implications that it's only marketing are senseless. There is *nothing* that compares to Office 2000 or XP. Sun's StarOffice is about as useful as the old version of Microsoft Office I used to install with 15 floppy disks under Windows 3.1. The point is, if you can't offer anything better in that catagory, you can't claim that there's no technical merit in the market leader. You don't have a better desktop, you don't have a better browser (no, you don't), you don't have a better office solution, you don't have better hardware support (we all know the reason for that, but that doesn't matter), and you don't have better APIs (There are MANY different ways for all sorts of people to develop Windows software, that's how they beat everyone. The free SDK is what conquered Apple, believe it or not. And I believe those familiar with it will admit the Win32 API is very powerful.). What you do have is a rock solid kernel, excellent speed, excellent design, and an awesome foundation. That's what makes Apple the genius of them all. The foundation of Mach/Darwin/BSD with a truly productive and usable GUI on top. Add Microsoft Office, a nice RISC processor, some marketing, a rabid customer base, and we have a winner (And no, I don't even like Macs). Apple is playing the game. Microsoft is playing the game. We aren't even playing the game. Linux *thinks* they're playing the game, but they aren't (which is sad). If the game is selling desktop machines, marketing is the key. But don't claim that all these years of Microsoft development have lead to zero technical merits. I know their kernel isn't locked under SMP when a single process makes a syscall. We're catching up to some of their past accomplishments. I'm not trying to be Pro-Microsoft, I just hate one sided arguments that talk about mascots and marketing as though that's the only reason a product succeeded. (b) And you're going on the common open source community belief that marketing is some sort of underhanded tactic. No offense, but have you ever taken a business or economics course ? Marketing is one of the tools used in business. I know marketing laws are a little different in Germany, but the concept remains the same. You can have the most powerful product in the world, and fail because you lack proper marketing. Do you blame them for their success ? Are you jealous ? Why do you mock them for doing with their operating system, what we would like to do with ours ? Succeed. You don't have to like their product. But you can't blame Microsoft for doing everything they could to succeed, including marketing to stupid non-tech IT Managers who look for industry buzz words like TCO to repeat to the officers of their corporation. Blame the companies for putting non-tech people in a position of purchasing authority in regards to technical products. We all create the customer base, they simply tailor their marketing to match. Right now, the tech people are not in the positions of major purchasing power, so they're not going to market to us. You can't blame a company for trying to sell what they have, to those who have the power to buy it. You can blame those who put stupid uninformed lemmings in the position to make such purchasing decisions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 8:51: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817E037B42B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.139.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.139.195] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zhWT-0003sQ-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:50:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE2CF02.798D992D@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:51:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: Nils Holland , David Johnson , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > That's my point - that sentiment is what needs to be discussed. Let me try > and bring this thread back screaming and kicking to being on-topic again, > and then let me explain where that little sub-thread went. > > OK, what I was trying to say, is that perhaps it's not the bank's website > that is broken, but our software. Perhaps, just maybe, we should be trying > to adopt those standards, even try and make the rendering engines more > IE-like so that there is a legitimate reason to say they are being 'facist' > when they exclude us. I'd be willing to work on this... ...after you do all the ActiveX control support. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 8:51:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (mail6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2934237B40A; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1003.abra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.4.235] helo=northway.bishopston.net) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 15zhX9-0006C0-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:51:07 +0000 Received: (from jamie@localhost) by northway.bishopston.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00660; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:47:55 GMT Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:41:11 GMT From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200111021641.QAA90472@bishopston.net> To: nils@tisys.org, paul@akita.co.uk Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com In-Reply-To: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul wrote: [ 8< ] > Where we then started swinging off-topic was as to whether we should just > sit here on our thrones and shout "we're all great, you're not, drop MS now > and come and join us or you're lame", or as to whether we should address all > the usability issues around our preferred platform to make the user > experience more accomodating for more people. [ 8< ] > you are, but nobody else is. I'm talking about making a situation where I > have a copy of Mozilla on my laptop that renders sites designed for IE just > like IE would. Where Shockwave and Javascript all behaves the way I would > expect it to in IE. Where IE-only tags get parsed and the output rendered > correctly. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't do any of that, and > we should just tell people that 'our way' is better. What I find interesting is that this topic is now coming down to the above, and whether it would be better for us to include IE "standards" to make our browsers more compatible with the masses, or stand firm, but unfortunately be less compatible with the majority. Most people on this thread seem to favour the latter. To me at least, this thread seems very similar to the recent thread on the FreeBSD Linux compatibility layer, and whether we should really emulate Linux or not. In that case, the vast majority thought the emulation was a good idea. Help me out here - what's different ? Ok, you can argue that the IE'isms are non-standard, but as has already been pointed out, they are a "non-defacto" standard we'd need to follow to promote more widespread use of our browsers on our OS, which was the main argument for keeping with Linux emulation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely a follower of the web-standards, but I can certainly see Pauls point of view. > Anyway, I'm shutting up now, as it's quite obvious that everybody thinks I'm > wrong for even daring to suggest that MS might actually have a reasonably > good product in the form of their browser, and I'm obviously being a heretic > when I say that quite frankly, Mozilla and Konqueror don't match up. I don't like the Microsoft OS, and I've had to use and support many incarnations, but I'm not blindly anti-MS - If they release a product I like, I'll say so. I actually used to like Media Player, but unfortunately, its recently become very bloated.. Any way, my main problem with IE is it's total disregard for the mime headers sent back with a http response, which should have been "fixed" a long time ago... Cheers, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 9:31:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBD837B40B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.139.195.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.139.195] helo=mindspring.com) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zi9a-0003Sf-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:30:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE2D876.405608C4@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:31:34 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Jones Cc: nils@tisys.org, paul@akita.co.uk, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <200111021641.QAA90472@bishopston.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Jones wrote: > To me at least, this thread seems very similar to the recent thread on > the FreeBSD Linux compatibility layer, and whether we should really > emulate Linux or not. > > In that case, the vast majority thought the emulation was a good idea. > > Help me out here - what's different ? The precise case in question is a web site that uses the JavaScript browser identification to exclude browsers other than IE or Netscape running on Windows. To "be compatible", we would have to lie to the JavaScript interpreter, so that when it ran locally (which is where JavaScript runs), it believed that it was running on an IE or Netscape of the appropriate version on Windows. To do this, we would have to illegally use at least one trademark. This seems to be what you are suggesting. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 9:39:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E838F37B401; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id fA2HdIl81661 ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:39:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA45762 ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:39:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:39:18 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Jones Cc: nils@tisys.org, paul@akita.co.uk, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102183918.A45437@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <200111021641.QAA90472@bishopston.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111021641.QAA90472@bishopston.net>; from jamie@northway.bishopston.net on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:41:11PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Jones said on Nov 2, 2001 at 16:41:11: > > you are, but nobody else is. I'm talking about making a situation where I > > have a copy of Mozilla on my laptop that renders sites designed for IE just > > like IE would. Where Shockwave and Javascript all behaves the way I would > > expect it to in IE. Where IE-only tags get parsed and the output rendered > > correctly. Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't do any of that, and > > we should just tell people that 'our way' is better. > To me at least, this thread seems very similar to the recent thread on > the FreeBSD Linux compatibility layer, and whether we should really > emulate Linux or not. > > In that case, the vast majority thought the emulation was a good idea. > > Help me out here - what's different ? Bad analogy. The linux compatibility layer allows you to run linux binaries, unmodified: it's analogous to wine, not to "windows-ifying FreeBSD". I think most FreeBSD people would agree that an (optional) subsystem like wine that lets you run windows binaries seamlessly, and which works as well as the linux compatibility, would be a good thing. Many people wouldn't want it, but many others would. This is not at all the same thing as modifying FreeBSD itself, or programs like Mozilla, to mimic Windows behaviour. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 9:39:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B93B37B401 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a227.otenet.gr [212.205.215.227]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fA2Hdj205184; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:39:45 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA2FiNL31842; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:44:24 GMT (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:44:23 +0000 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! Message-ID: <20011102154423.B31265@hades.hell.gr> References: <3BE08283.EC81A8ED@math.missouri.edu> <20011031170629.C865-100000@coredump.scriptkiddie.org> <20011101214720.G4360@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011101214720.G4360@blossom.cjclark.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 09:47:20PM -0800, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 05:20:33PM -0800, Lamont Granquist wrote: > > Contribute to the Heat Death of the Universe! pipe everything to /dev/null! > > Actually, though it may be counter-intuituve, the best way to add to > hasten the Heat Death is to _save_ data. It takes work (in the > thermodynamic sense) to save data (to disk, to memory, or to even to > your brain). The efficiency of getting the work done is where the > entropy is seriously increased. Then, my local CVS mirror of FreeBSD sources, kept in sync over a slow modem connection (that's where inefficiency jumps in) is actually my small contribution to the effort to destroy the Universe! Hurray!!! -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 9:46:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.hitachi.net (netsvc1.hitachi.net [63.66.25.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDED37B403 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop.hal.hitachi.com (homea.hitachi.net [63.66.25.129]) by mail1.hitachi.net (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 mail1 Jun 13 2001 14:38:13) with ESMTP id GM6PE501.6KE for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:46:54 -0800 Received: from md1-sv01-sfo.hal.hitachi.com ([137.168.80.8]) by pop.hal.hitachi.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GM6PE500.BD1 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:46:53 -0800 Received: from smtp1.hsa.hitachi.com ([137.168.8.2]) by md1-sv01-sfo.hal.hitachi.com (NAVIEG 2.1 bld 63) with SMTP id M2001110209465217680 for ; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:46:52 -0800 Received: from hsa.hitachi.com ([137.168.149.121]) by smtp1.hsa.hitachi.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GM6PEP00.7GM for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:47:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE2DC0C.E63E80C6@hsa.hitachi.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:46:52 -0800 From: "Rakesh Prajapati" Organization: Hitachi Semiconductor (America), Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org auth 3dc72a2d unsubscribe freebsd-chat \ rakesh.prajapati@hsa.hitachi.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 10:16:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2FB37B403 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C37BC95 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16075 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:16:45 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA2IF7f54175; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:15:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! References: <3BE08283.EC81A8ED@math.missouri.edu> <20011031170629.C865-100000@coredump.scriptkiddie.org> <20011101214720.G4360@blossom.cjclark.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 02 Nov 2001 10:15:06 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011101214720.G4360@blossom.cjclark.org> Message-ID: Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: [ about pi digits as random numbers ] > > If you were to run all of your statistical tests on that set of > numbers, it would appear to be random. But it is not. If you tell me > any arbitrary position in the bit stream, I can tell you what the next > value will be. Not random. Just a side-note about the opposite "gotch" to also watch out for: "0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0" could be the output of a truly random number generator and it could thus be said to be a random number sequence. You can not tell me what the next value wil be. Random. (You will never get that sequence from a common psuedo-random number generator.) So when some software ask you for a random number sequence, you should, in most cases, not only feed it random numbers, but numbers that are designed to produce numbers that look random even though they are not or those that have passed statistical tests for randomness. So it will often be better to use numbers from random(3) (maybe seeded by numbers from /dev/random) than those from /dev/random. (Unless those devices' output has been designed to also pass statistical tests in all cases, rather than seeming to be truly random (which won't pass statistical tests in all cases). Anyone know?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 10:56:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8145037B401 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29580 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 18:56:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 2 Nov 2001 18:56:11 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011102161519.40762.qmail@web11504.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:56:11 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Fabio Miranda Subject: RE: struct hostent Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Nov-01 Fabio Miranda wrote: > Hi, i am coding a small c program in order to learn > network programming: > main(int argc, char *argv[]){ > struct hostent *host; > .... > if((host=gethostbyname(argv[1])=NULL)){ > perror("gethostbyname"); > exit(-1);} This should be: if ((host = gethostbyname(argv[1])) == NULL) { Note the "==" check for NULL. You are assigning NULL to host effectively, causing your core dump. I would also persoally recommand a slightly different style, but that is a matter of personal opinion I suppose. > /* now, i want to print out all the hostent struct > information */ > printf("struct hostent{\n"); > printf("char *h_name: %s", host->h_name); > printf("char **h_aliases:%s\n", host->h_length); > printf("int h_addrtype: %d\n", host->h_addrtype); > printf("int h_length: %d\n", host->h_length); > printf("char **h_addr_list: %d\n", > host->h_addr_list); > } > } > This program core dumped, it may crash because i am > trying to print an char array (h_addr_list, right?), I > want to know how can i print all the information store > in a struct hostent?, especiality the ip address. > > thanks > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find a job, post your resume. > http://careers.yahoo.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 11:10:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB0037B408 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA3037; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:10:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:10:05 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > That's something that has changed in the industry, and I don't know if > it's too good. I mean: When computers were not present in every home, and > only real hackers had access to them or even owned one, the world worked > much better. I real hacker basically didn't use the computer because he > wants to store his recipies in there, but, basically, he uses the computer > for the sake that it's a computer. The heart of the problem, IMHO, is that computers are our first general purpose appliance. General purpose devices are harder to use than specific purpose devices. Cars are easy to drive, boats are easy to sail, and airplanes are easy to fly (according to pilot friends of mine). But put all three together into a single general purpose vehicle and it would very hard to use and even harder to maintain. What if your kitchen had a single appliance that combined all the features of your fridge, microwave, dishwasher, stove, and blender? Do you think Mytag would be inundated with complaints of pot roast being put through the rinse cycle? People have difficulty with computers because they do lots of things in lots of interesting ways. There are two ways I see of making them easier. The first is to raise the computer literacy level of the general public. The second is to start marketing specific purpose computer appliances. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 11:34:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5C537B403 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:34:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA4099; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:34:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE2F545.CD94EECC@acuson.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:34:29 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <3BE1CC99.D3C8733C@acuson.com> <20011102000921.J54141-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <20011102104858.A47349@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > If an on-line stores choose to spend 50k on some Actinic-spawned bastard of > an e-commerce system, and they realise it will cost another 25k to get it to > work with browsers other than IE, like Mozilla and Konqueror, but only 10% > of the target market uses those browsers, should they spend the money? You missed a number there. How much revenue does that 10% bring in? If it's more than 25k then they will be foolish to deliberately turn then away. But deeper than that, I think the businessman doesn't even *know* that he are missing 10% of his potential market. His webmaster might know, but his webmaster doesn't know anything about business, and thinks 90% is good enough. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 11:50:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD9537B408 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-148.wobline.de [212.68.69.156]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA2Jo6N21117; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:50:07 +0100 Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2Jqd728651; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:52:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from jodie.ncptiddische.net (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by jodie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2JoWf02917; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:50:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:50:32 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: David Johnson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> Message-ID: <20011102203830.U2905-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, David Johnson wrote: > People have difficulty with computers because they do lots of things in > lots of interesting ways. There are two ways I see of making them > easier. The first is to raise the computer literacy level of the general > public. The second is to start marketing specific purpose computer > appliances. I guess that a lot of the success the computer have had during the past years was also caused by them being general purpose items. In fact, I guess each office is now powered by computers because they have replaced typewriter, filing cabinets, the need to do manual calculations and charts, and to some extend even postal mail service. Furthermore, the question should really be asked all the way: Right now, looking at computers (no matter if FreeBSD or Windows), we have a few basics to learn, and once these basics are learnt, everything works more or less the same way. Microsoft says that if you can use *one* program of their office suite, you can, without much learning, use *all* of them. On FreeBSD, once you have realized how one command works, it's not much more than having a look at the manpage of any other command and see what options there are. In contrast, if we had one device for word processing, one device for creating spreadsheets, one device for databases, and so on, I guess not just would our offices be clogged up, but in the worst case all of these devices would look-and-feel entirely different, thus making them even harder to use. Looking at your example, I guess a combined car-boat-airplane would probably be rather easy to handle. Switch to car mode, use the steering wheel and the pedals and drive along. Put it into water, use the same steering wheel and pedals and you have a boat. It would work similarely when switching to airplane mode. Then again, a VCR or TV set are probably rather specific-purpose appliances, and yet there are numerous people who don't really know how to set their VCR's clocks or how to set stations on their TV sets. There are even people who are unable to get their digital watches switched from daylight saving time to normal time... For computers, the public probably needs to be educated, and at the same time the system can be made easier to use for them. KDE and Gnome seem to try to achieve that in the Unix world. I'm never against such methods of making devices easier to use, as long as the flexibility which is important to advanced users is not being sacrificed. Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 12: 9:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA2937B401; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 598E717BD4; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447EC15CC9; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:09:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:09:33 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Mike Meyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15330.15546.29008.424784@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > If you require everyone to use IE whether disabled or not, you're > clearly not discriminating against the disabled if IE can accomodate > them. > That's a substantial if. I suspect it's not true. For one, can you use IE with a braille terminal? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 12:26:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C849237B401; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E31BCF7; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17089; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:26:40 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA2KP2t54184; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:25:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nils Holland Cc: , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 02 Nov 2001 12:25:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Message-ID: Lines: 76 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland writes: > Hmm, forcing computer manufacturers to install their system is what made > them successful - not very much more. That was part of it - but there WAS very much more. Mostly, that they offered software that users preferred to buy more than the few available alternatives. (My gripe has been with both the users who didn't insist on something better instead of just accepting the best of a very bad lot and with M$ for devoting themselves only to the bottom line and market domination and for being such a technological foot-dragger wasting their enormous R & D budget (and of course, their dispicable business practices).) But one must admit that when users had the choice of M$DOS or CP/M or Mac or IBM or legions of Unix OSes, few could afford to choose one of the technically better OSes. Don't fool yourself that people don't use FreeBSD (or Linux, etc) because they don't know about it. Few care that it is powerful. And it's a new world, now. With negligible exceptions, WinXP and Win2000 are as powerful and flexible and "good" as any Unix OS, roughly speaking, of course. People use FreeBSD mostly because it is best in it's niche as a low-cost server OS or, not to be forgotten, because they appreciate the FreeBSD philsophy (and license) or community. Nils, don't compare FreeBSD to M$ Windows, especially one without a command line installed. (Do you know that you can get a largely- complete Unix shell enviroment for Windows?) Compare it with Mac OS X running on a Intel/AMD CPU which comes with a fully functional Unix shell. Compare it with something better than that. Imagine a system that is both easy to use and powerful/flexible. Imagine software that does the grunt work so you can do creative things. Consider users like me who've known the benefits of Unix for over twenty years and haven't needed to read "The Unix-Hater's Handbook" (though I have read it) to know that Unix has severe problems who's continued existance is a result of nothing more than cultural momentum and inability to coordinate changes in a largely anarchic community. It was fine when I was young and eager to exercise the power and flexibilty and had a full-time Unix system administrator to do the grunt work, but even if I enjoyed doing the grunt work (which I no longer do), I find myself spending most of my available time doing grunt work and have little time left to do more creative things or to learn about more than poorly-documented system and network software. Few people who know these usability problems well or discover them shortly after trying a Unix-like OS, are going to use such an OS by choice. Few care about the philosphies or ethics of the OS producer and will use the OS that lets them do non-OS things faster than the other OSes. Unless you're satisfied going after small niche markets like HTML servers or free software philosophers (and even if that's all, as I explained yesterday) you need to work on making your OS more efficient of user time, more than any other single thing. Yes, efficiency of user time is vital to the future of an OS. Your measure of OS performance and powerfulness should weigh that more than speed of IP transfers or a thousand other low-level features. And flexibility is only important to the extent that it reduces the time it takes for a user to do something (including the learning process to do it). Now, we will agree that a dumb GUI is actually less efficient than use of a dumb config file. But we should be past all that by now. GUIs should be smart. They can even be made to look exactly like a dumb config file, but in fact be a kind of smart config file. Good GUIs think for you. They check for typos and conflicts and dependancies. They offer you choices so you don't have to remember them. They make info and help available to you. Developers of other OSes and their applications are putting lots of effort into putting smarts into user interfaces so that users can use their time to be smart about other things. You will not compete with them if you only put your effort into the non-user-interface parts of OSes and their applications. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 12:36:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1548D37B407; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02363; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:36:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 13:35:26 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15330.15546.29008.424784@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:27 PM 11/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >The ADA actually applies to "physical places of public >accomodation". In Hooks vs. OKBridge, the US District Court for the >Western District of Texas ruled that the ADA doesn't apply to a web >site because a web site isn't a "physical place". On appeal, the Fifth >Circuit ducked the issue by ruling that OKBridge hadn't violated the >ADA for reason unrelated to whether or not the ADA applied to the web >site. Details at . Sorry, Mike, but that case is unrelated. The person in question had bipolar disorder, not an inability to read the screen. The DOJ has ruled that the ADA does require Web pages to be accessible via text-based browsers. Local governments have also imposed similar requirements. see http://www.rit.edu/~easi/law/weblaw1.htm --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 12:41:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13603.mail.yahoo.com (web13603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0366137B407 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:41:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011102204118.60955.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:41:18 PST Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:41:18 -0800 (PST) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Any recent comparisons vs BSD? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org the VM Saga keeps rolling: http://www.nks.net/linux-vm.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 13: 6:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8A937B40D; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-144.wobline.de [212.68.69.152]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA2L6UN27070; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:06:30 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2L93728966; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:09:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2L6Ya00516; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:06:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:06:34 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011102215135.A484-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Nov 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > But one must admit that when users had the choice of M$DOS or CP/M > or Mac or IBM or legions of Unix OSes, few could afford to choose one of > the technically better OSes. Do the test: Go out on the street and ask random people if they know what OS/2, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, BeOS or CP/M are. Ask the same people to define the term "operating system." Post the results to the forum, and let's interpret them to find out if users actually had the choice to get other OSes. I guess most won't know that there are alternatives, and if you don't know about something, you cannot use it. > With negligible exceptions, WinXP and Win2000 are as powerful and > flexible and "good" as any Unix OS, roughly speaking, of course. *VERY* roughly speaking... > It was fine when I was young and eager to exercise the power and > flexibilty and had a full-time Unix system administrator to do the > grunt work, but even if I enjoyed doing the grunt work (which I no > longer do), I find myself spending most of my available time doing > grunt work and have little time left to do more creative things or to > learn about more than poorly-documented system and network software. Half of what I enjoy about Unix is just doing that very grunt work. > Now, we will agree that a dumb GUI is actually less efficient than > use of a dumb config file. But we should be past all that by now. > GUIs should be smart. They can even be made to look exactly like > a dumb config file, but in fact be a kind of smart config file. > Good GUIs think for you. They check for typos and conflicts and > dependancies. They offer you choices so you don't have to remember > them. They make info and help available to you. Open up Microsoft Word. Type the folowing exactly as shown: "I cannot let a sentence start with a non-capital letter. here is the proof!" What you will realize: MS Word will convert the first letter of the second sentence into a capital letter, so that it reads "Here is the proof!. Now, you call that "info and help"? I call it thinking that all users are created stupid, because it seems as if MS doesn't want to give me the right to start sentences with non-capital letters unless I specifically change that in the options somewhere. > Developers of other OSes and their applications are putting lots of > effort into putting smarts into user interfaces so that users can use > their time to be smart about other things. You will not compete with > them if you only put your effort into the non-user-interface parts of > OSes and their applications. I guess that on FreeBSD with KDE or GNOME, you can put your effort into other, creative things. You can, however, also decide not to do that and instead play the game "the hard way". It's that flexibility that I regard as important. Greetings Nils (NOTE: I hope that this thread will soon come to an end, because it seems to be a complete waste of time. For my part, I will now only post replies if I really find it neccessary. Sorry for anyone who felt disturbed by me so far...) Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 13:13: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E10DC37B40B for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 63774 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 21:12:56 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15331.3160.267602.910557@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:12:56 -0600 To: David Scheidt Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: References: <15330.15546.29008.424784@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org DDavid Scheidt types: > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > If you require everyone to use IE whether disabled or not, you're > > clearly not discriminating against the disabled if IE can accomodate > > them. > That's a substantial if. I suspect it's not true. For one, can you use > IE with a braille terminal? I dunno. That's what I pointed out in the context that you threw out that talked about the accessibility options that IE has that I haven't looked into. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 13:44:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F1C1937B40B for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 64431 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 21:44:25 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15331.5049.557178.962643@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:44:25 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 11:27 PM 11/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >The ADA actually applies to "physical places of public > >accomodation". In Hooks vs. OKBridge, the US District Court for the > >Western District of Texas ruled that the ADA doesn't apply to a web > >site because a web site isn't a "physical place". On appeal, the Fifth > >Circuit ducked the issue by ruling that OKBridge hadn't violated the > >ADA for reason unrelated to whether or not the ADA applied to the web > >site. Details at . > > Sorry, Mike, but that case is unrelated. The person in question had > bipolar disorder, not an inability to read the screen. The DOJ > has ruled that the ADA does require Web pages to be accessible via > text-based browsers. Local governments have also imposed similar > requirements. see > > http://www.rit.edu/~easi/law/weblaw1.htm Whether the person in question had bipoloar disorder or an inability to read the screen is immaterial. What that case gives you is a precedent - which has *not* been overturned by a superior court - that a commercial web site is not covered by the ADA as it is not a physical place. If you read the paper you cited carefully, you'll find that it requires "covered entities" to provide web sites accessible to the disabled, and that Titles II and III make state and local governments - and any organizations they or the feds fund - "covered entities". All of which I've publicly stated before. If you go back and read the DOJ document I cited, specifically the paragraph titled "Fifth Circuit Avoids Ruling on Internet Coverage", you'll find that the Department of Justice thinks there is no precedent for the ADA applying to commercial web sites. While the DOJ clearly feels that commercial web sites should be covered, as they filed a brief with the fifth circuit court to that effect, and I agree with them, the best legal precedent they have says otherwise. As always, I'm interested in any precedent that would supercede the ones cited by the DOJ. Without that, all you're doing is wishing that the ADA applied. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 14: 4:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 426FB37B40A; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:04:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:04:21 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Nils Holland Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Paul Robinson , David Johnson , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011102140421.B37684@FreeBSD.org> References: <001f01c163ae$1f2ebaa0$aa00a8c0@cx443070b> <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011102163728.F588-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net>; from nils@tisys.org on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:42:45PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > With many millons of dollars for marketing and a few easy psychological > tricks, I could get people to throw away their current PC and make them > buy an 8 bit machine with 64 KB of RAM instead. Of course, I would not > talk about the bits and the RAM, but I'd talk about easy to use, I'd > mention the words "total cost of ownership", maybe something like > "standard" - yes, all that stuff that sounds good. A few good looking TV > spots will be helpful too. And then, I'd present *myself* as the best > marketing tool, just like Bill Gates is Microsoft's mascot now (we have a > daemon, they have a Gates). Oh, would my 8 bit machine sell fine!!! Eight is boring. Use a prime. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 14: 9:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C4337B40E; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 168D317BC1; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE3415CC9; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:09:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:09:25 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Mike Meyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15331.5049.557178.962643@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > If you go back and read the DOJ document I cited, specifically the > paragraph titled "Fifth Circuit Avoids Ruling on Internet Coverage", > you'll find that the Department of Justice thinks there is no > precedent for the ADA applying to commercial web sites. While the DOJ > clearly feels that commercial web sites should be covered, as they > filed a brief with the fifth circuit court to that effect, and I agree > with them, the best legal precedent they have says otherwise. Well, not quite. Doesn't say it's otherwise, doesn't say it's not otherwise. They ducked the issue. Given that it doesn't cost much money to design an accessable site, but it does cost lots of money to retrofit one so it's accessable, it's silly to do otherwise. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 14:24:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5561E37B40D for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 65653 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 22:24:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15331.7459.503822.857563@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:24:35 -0600 To: David Scheidt Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: References: <15331.5049.557178.962643@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt types: > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > If you go back and read the DOJ document I cited, specifically the > > paragraph titled "Fifth Circuit Avoids Ruling on Internet Coverage", > > you'll find that the Department of Justice thinks there is no > > precedent for the ADA applying to commercial web sites. While the DOJ > > clearly feels that commercial web sites should be covered, as they > > filed a brief with the fifth circuit court to that effect, and I agree > > with them, the best legal precedent they have says otherwise. > > Well, not quite. Doesn't say it's otherwise, doesn't say it's not > otherwise. They ducked the issue. Given that it doesn't cost much money to > design an accessable site, but it does cost lots of money to retrofit one so > it's accessable, it's silly to do otherwise. The Fifth Circuit court ducked the issue, the District Court ruling is the one I was referring to. I'd love a solid precedent saying that commercial web sites were covered by the ADA. As for the costs - I gave up trying to tell people that five years ago, because nobody cared. As far as I can tell, they still don't. The question of expensive retrofits was brought up in the congressional hearings on the matter, and the ADA doesn't require them. It's going to take something major to make most web designers notice. Since AOL agreeing to redesign their software for accessability to end the lawsuit with The National Federation for the Blind wasn't major enough, I have no idea what would be. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 14:36: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA1237B40A for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA42B5; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:35:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE31FCD.C94F5CBD@acuson.com> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 14:35:57 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102203830.U2905-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > I guess that a lot of the success the computer have had during the past > years was also caused by them being general purpose items. In fact, I > guess each office is now powered by computers because they have replaced > typewriter, filing cabinets, the need to do manual calculations and > charts, and to some extend even postal mail service. A general purpose appliance has a features/benefits list that no specific purpose appliance can even approach. That makes them very attractive. But it doesn't make them easier to use. My "premise" wasn't that general purpose computing devices are wrong. Only that they are harder to use. If you want to make computers easier you have to either educate the user or make them specialized. > In contrast, if we had one device for word processing, one device for > creating spreadsheets, one device for databases, and so on, I guess not > just would our offices be clogged up, but in the worst case all of these > devices would look-and-feel entirely different, thus making them even > harder to use. General purpose devices are cheaper than a multitude of special purpose devices, so it only makes sense to buy them when you have more than one function to perform at a station. But that still doesn't make them easier to use. > Looking at your example, I guess a combined car-boat-airplane would > probably be rather easy to handle. Switch to car mode, use the steering > wheel and the pedals and drive along. Put it into water, use the same > steering wheel and pedals and you have a boat. It would work similarely > when switching to airplane mode. I would have to disagree. In order to learn how to operate such a vehicle to its fullest, you will have to learn how to drive, how to sail and how to fly. That's at least three times the learning at the minimum. Of course you could always get that vehicle and *only* drive it. That's what many people do with their computers. They learn how to use Word, then use Word for ALL of their tasks even if it isn't appropriate. I've seen presentations made in Word, emails sent in Word, and even spreadsheets sent in word. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 14:43: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BAD37B40C; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:42:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04163; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:42:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:41:58 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15331.5049.557178.962643@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:44 PM 11/2/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Whether the person in question had bipoloar disorder or an inability >to read the screen is immaterial. Not at all. It is quite important. Also, remember that the ruling in that case claimed that the owner of the site was running a "private club." Clearly, this is not the case for MSN, which is a public accommodation and which Windows users are COMPELLED to access for product activation. So, the ruling was very narrow indeed. And it only applies in one judicial circuit. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 14:45:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDDE837B408 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 8F42114C2E; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:45:05 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Philosophers Please! References: <3BE08283.EC81A8ED@math.missouri.edu> <20011031170629.C865-100000@coredump.scriptkiddie.org> <20011101214720.G4360@blossom.cjclark.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Nov 2001 23:45:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > So it will often be better to use numbers from random(3) (maybe seeded > by numbers from /dev/random) than those from /dev/random. (Unless those > devices' output has been designed to also pass statistical tests in > all cases, rather than seeming to be truly random (which won't pass > statistical tests in all cases). Anyone know?) FreeBSD's /dev/random is an implementation of Counterpane Security's Yarrow algorithm, which is designed for robustness in the face of serious cryptoanalysis. The original paper describing Yarrow is available at . DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 14:48:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFC337B40B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 4BB8B17BC1; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F0E15CC9; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:48:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:48:41 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Mike Meyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15331.7459.503822.857563@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > The Fifth Circuit court ducked the issue, the District Court ruling is > the one I was referring to. I'd love a solid precedent saying that > commercial web sites were covered by the ADA. The District Court ruling doesn't count for much, since the the appeals case. I too would like very much to see a solid precedent, one way or the other (hopefully that web sites are public accomadations, since they are). > > As for the costs - I gave up trying to tell people that five years > ago, because nobody cared. As far as I can tell, they still don't. The > question of expensive retrofits was brought up in the congressional > hearings on the matter, and the ADA doesn't require them. It's going > to take something major to make most web designers notice. Since AOL > agreeing to redesign their software for accessability to end the > lawsuit with The National Federation for the Blind wasn't major > enough, I have no idea what would be. While the ADA doesn't require major retrofits to bring something into compliance, it does require that new construction and major renovations be compliant, and has penalities for those that don't. Since all web sites postdate the ADA, retrofitting might be required. Of course, many companies can't look 6 months into the future, so it's no suprise this doesn't worry them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 15: 1:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1C137B413; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA2N4rl65792; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:04:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:04:53 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011103000452.C65729@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak References: <20011102215135.A484-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20011102215135.A484-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland [Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:06:34PM +0100]: > On 2 Nov 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > But one must admit that when users had the choice of M$DOS or CP/M > > or Mac or IBM or legions of Unix OSes, few could afford to choose one of > > the technically better OSes. > Do the test: Go out on the street and ask random people if they know what > OS/2, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, BeOS or CP/M are. Ask the same people to > define the term "operating system." Post the results to the forum, and Well, you could find such forum on http://rinkworks.com/stupid/cs_os.shtml > Open up Microsoft Word. Type the folowing exactly as shown: "I cannot let > a sentence start with a non-capital letter. here is the proof!" It's easy to turn it off. MS Word has also many other features (even those turned-on by default), which are not available on Unix, no matter which (native) office suite we would use. > created stupid, because it seems as if MS doesn't want to give me the > right to start sentences with non-capital letters unless I specifically Sue them. > I guess that on FreeBSD with KDE or GNOME, you can put your effort into > other, creative things. You can, however, also decide not to do that and > instead play the game "the hard way". It's that flexibility that I regard > as important. KOffice sucks, it's not for human use, it's untested, it's unuseable. I'd rather learn to write / read pure TeX, that use that so-called Office package. -- [ Michal Pasternak doc@lublin.t1.pl +48606570000 ] [ sklepy internetowe, bazy danych, programy na zamówienie ] [ . .. ..- .- . .. http://lublin.t1.pl . .-. .--.. . . .- ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 15: 2: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7310437B417 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 66825 invoked by uid 100); 2 Nov 2001 23:01:43 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15331.9687.734603.325845@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:01:43 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 02:44 PM 11/2/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Whether the person in question had bipoloar disorder or an inability > >to read the screen is immaterial. > Not at all. It is quite important. Your saying it's important doesn't make it so. Try providing reasons when you make such statements. > Also, remember that the ruling in that case claimed that the owner > of the site was running a "private club." Clearly, this is not > the case for MSN, which is a public accommodation and which Windows > users are COMPELLED to access for product activation. So, the > ruling was very narrow indeed. And it only applies in one judicial > circuit. Yup, the court ruled that the place was a private club as well as that it wasn't a physical place. Further, the Fifth Circuit court ruled that OKBridge didn't violate the ADA because they weren't aware of the alleged disability at the time. And yes, the ruling in question only applies in one judicial circuit, but it can still be considered as precedent in other circuits. Sure, it's a remarkably flimsy precedent - but it's *still* better than any precedent you've quoted or I've been able to find to defend the position that the ADA applies to commercial web sites. Again, if you've got a better precedent, lets hear it, not just you stating what you wish were true yet again. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 15:13:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E9337B40B for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-148.wobline.de [212.68.69.156]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fA2NDHN03203; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:13:17 +0100 Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2NFp729448; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:15:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: from howie.ncptiddische.net (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by howie.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2NCmu00312; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:13:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:12:48 +0100 (CET) From: Nils Holland To: David Johnson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <3BE31FCD.C94F5CBD@acuson.com> Message-ID: <20011102235559.N291-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, David Johnson wrote: > A general purpose appliance has a features/benefits list that no > specific purpose appliance can even approach. That makes them very > attractive. But it doesn't make them easier to use. That's the point. We're probably now way off the topic and deep in the field of philosophy or something, but generally I guess many people are using their computersl, which are general purpose devices, just like they were speficifc purpose devices. That's surely a matter of knowledge, some people just don't take the time to learn what their computers can in fact do. As an example, my mother owns a Windows machine, and she basically only used it for writing letters in Word. She didn't even know that other things could be done with the machine. But when I took some time to show her what she actually *can* do with her computer, she was rather amazed and found the machine "greater than she thought it were". > My "premise" wasn't that general purpose computing devices are wrong. > Only that they are harder to use. If you want to make computers easier > you have to either educate the user or make them specialized. Yes, I can generally agree to that point, since there's not much that can be said about it. While I really wouldn't want to use a specific device for any specific task, it is a fact that such devices would be easier to use. I guess, however, that nobody would find them attractive for a longer period of time. > General purpose devices are cheaper than a multitude of special purpose > devices, so it only makes sense to buy them when you have more than one > function to perform at a station. But that still doesn't make them > easier to use. Hmm, that depends, as I shall explain below. > I would have to disagree. In order to learn how to operate such a > vehicle to its fullest, you will have to learn how to drive, how to sail > and how to fly. That's at least three times the learning at the minimum. Actually, if you really only want to drive, you will be better of with an ordinary car. But if you want to drive, sail and fly, a device that can do all of that would be better. Learning driving, sailing and flying on different devices or on one device that can do it all will probably not be much of a difference. I guess most folks are doing (or would like to do) many things on their computer, and therefore the combined approach is better suited. However, you are of course right when you say that such a general approach is harder to use. > Of course you could always get that vehicle and *only* drive it. That's > what many people do with their computers. They learn how to use Word, > then use Word for ALL of their tasks even if it isn't appropriate. I've > seen presentations made in Word, emails sent in Word, and even > spreadsheets sent in word. Well, I've seen games written in VBA in Microsoft Excel ;-) However, what you mentioned about Word is another issue: As Microsoft figured out that there are no more actually useful features they could put into Word (or any of their other software), they started adding stuff that actually belongs somewhere else. I haven't been an active Windows user for years (in fact, I never really have been), but when I see Office 97, 2000 and XP on the machines of other people, I wonder if only *one* actually useful new feature has been added between these releases... Greetings Nils Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 2 22:17:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F47337B40B; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA36HCT78726; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Nils Holland" Cc: , Subject: The myth of the worthwile GUI, was NatWest? no thanks Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:17:12 -0800 Message-ID: <004d01c1642f$2cdb61e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Gary W. >Swearingen >Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 12:25 PM >To: Nils Holland >Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > Imagine a system >that is both easy to use and powerful/flexible. Imagine software that >does the grunt work so you can do creative things. > There's plenty of grunt work that has to be done under Windows. Perhaps if you cited specific examples your statement might be more believable. >It was fine when I was young and eager to exercise the power and >flexibilty and had a full-time Unix system administrator to do the >grunt work, but even if I enjoyed doing the grunt work (which I no >longer do), I find myself spending most of my available time doing >grunt work and have little time left to do more creative things or to >learn about more than poorly-documented system and network software. > People pay you for doing the grunt work. It's why they call it "work" These "creative things" that you are alluding to sound more like "play" to me than work. I think the problem is that your getting burned out and are longing for a job where you sit around dreaming these wonderful dreams and people pay you lots of money for it. Wake up that's only in the movies. There were a number of people that did try doing this a couple years back that ran dot-coms and they are now all bankrupt. I can assure you that being a pure Windows admin or managing a house of all Windows isn't going to be any easier than a house of all UNIX. I know that Microsoft keeps saying it is but they are only doing this to get people like you conned into giving them money for their stuff. But if you do once you get their stuff you find out that it's just as horrible as what you have now. There ain't no free lunch in this world. >Few people who know these usability problems well or discover them >shortly after trying a Unix-like OS, are going to use such an OS by >choice. Few care about the philosphies or ethics of the OS producer >and will use the OS that lets them do non-OS things faster than the >other OSes. Unless you're satisfied going after small niche markets >like HTML servers or free software philosophers (and even if that's >all, as I explained yesterday) you need to work on making your OS >more efficient of user time, more than any other single thing. > I think you've been insulated from real users too long and forgotten how stupid they are. A house full of Windows users isn't any more contented than a house full of UNIX users. People find the stupidest things to waste your time with if your trying to support them, they are never satisfied unless the admin comes down from his office and does their job for them. Every time I've seen any useability improvements added into Windows it just makes the users even stupider. Back in the command line days they were forced into at least understanding that a filesystem was like a tree. Win 3.1 filemanager came along and drew the tree for them then they forgot all about the tree image and just started dumping everything in a single directory. Win95 came along and dumped the tree and replaced it with a window with a bunch of icons and now they cannot even dump anything into a single directory anymore. I think your way overestimating the influence of the OS on the users. Users today don't give a rat's ass what OS the computer uses because none of them are willing to do OS-level things like moving files around anymore instead they call the admin to send someone down to do it for them, no matter how simple the latest version of Windows makes it. >Yes, efficiency of user time is vital to the future of an OS. Rubbish. Users today expect everything set up for them and bitch and complain about learning what icon to click to do things. They expect the admin of the company to do it for them, or they expect the manufacturer of the computer to do it for them. They WILL NOT do it themselves no matter how easy you make it. Don't you understand why Microsoft's sales have dropped off in new OS sales? It's because 6 years ago the general user community was actually willing to INSTALL THE OS ON THEIR EXISTING HARDWARE!! Today, they aren't willing to do that and if they want the latest version of Windows they just buy a system with it preinstalled. >Your >measure of OS performance and powerfulness should weigh that more >than speed of IP transfers or a thousand other low-level features. >And flexibility is only important to the extent that it reduces the >time it takes for a user to do something (including the learning >process to do it). > All of this is irrelevant to today's users. Today the users are not willing to spend any time at all learning how to do something. It therefore doesen't matter if it takes 30 seconds to do something on an OS, or 30 minutes, the general userbase population will not even spend the 30 seconds anymore. The first guy that can design an artificial intelligence program that can parse "I want to send an e-mail to that guy, you know, the one that mailed me yesterday about that thing, you know?" and cause the computer to create, compose and transmit an e-mail to the exact person they are thinking about is going to make a million dollars. >Now, we will agree that a dumb GUI is actually less efficient than >use of a dumb config file. But we should be past all that by now. >GUIs should be smart. They can even be made to look exactly like >a dumb config file, but in fact be a kind of smart config file. >Good GUIs think for you. They check for typos and conflicts and >dependancies. They offer you choices so you don't have to remember >them. They make info and help available to you. > The userbase is completely uninterested in reading the info or help presented to them, is incapabable of making choices anymore, is perfectly able to spell "which" when they mean "witch" and not see the error no matter how long they stare at it, and cannot understand what a config file does or why it's needed anymore. >Developers of other OSes and their applications are putting lots of >effort into putting smarts into user interfaces so that users can use >their time to be smart about other things. You will not compete with >them if you only put your effort into the non-user-interface parts of >OSes and their applications. > The idea that a user interface can be made so smart and so easy to use that it will give the users a lot of extra time is a mirage that is unreachable. If the users are not willing to learn and understand the tool in front of them they simply will create worthless junk. The only thing that these so-called "smart" interfaces really do for stupid morons is to make them THINK that they are producing something desirable and good when in reality they are producing garbage. You sit a dumb blonde in front of a modern wordprocessor today and tell her to type a letter, well she thinks she done good because there's 5 different fonts on the page, 3 different colors, and bullets and bold and italics all over the screen. However the actual text that she is pumping out is unintelligible with atrocious grammer, spelling errors all over the place, a vocabulary of less than 50 words, and if presented in a 5th grade grammer school class would get an F. What keeps the industry going is that there's a lot of dumb blondes out there working as receptionists that have managers that need to keep them occupied doing something other than playing solitare while they sit on the phone. So, it is true that these smart GUI interfaces do fill a need, just not the one you think is being filled. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 5:12:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D05237B416; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 05:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE971D169; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:12:19 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:12:19 -0000 From: Paul Richards To: Nik Clayton , Paul Robinson Cc: Craig Harding , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Supporting MS IE (was Re: NatWest? no thanks) Message-ID: <525470000.1004793139@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20011101135201.N99754@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011101135201.N99754@clan.nothing-going-on.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Thursday, November 01, 2001 13:52:01 +0000 Nik Clayton wrote: > As an aside, it also lets me do clever things. Because their interface > is (effectively) an application where the URLs form command strings, I > can write simple[1] Perl scripts that can go to the site, and pull down my > current balance for me. Which is actually quite handy. > > I couldn't do that before. So can somebody else. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 5:41:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E9337B418; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 05:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109161D169; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:41:54 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:41:54 -0000 From: Paul Richards To: Jordan Hubbard , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Gordon Tetlow , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: rc.d patch to test out Message-ID: <549580000.1004794913@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <43854.1004603686@winston.freebsd.org> References: <43854.1004603686@winston.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Thursday, November 01, 2001 00:34:46 -0800 Jordan Hubbard wrote: >> *sigh* Is people's grammer gotten this bad in emails these days? > ^ Has > > You're mixing tenses otherwise. :) If you're going to go down this route then it should be Has the grammar of people ..... :-) Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 9:11:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981A837B417; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fA3GqaB25795; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:52:36 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:52:36 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Paul Richards Cc: Nik Clayton , Paul Robinson , Craig Harding , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Supporting MS IE (was Re: NatWest? no thanks) Message-ID: <20011103165236.X99754@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011101135201.N99754@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <525470000.1004793139@lobster.originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="R0SsnouPYaG+7rP6" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <525470000.1004793139@lobster.originative.co.uk>; from paul@freebsd-services.com on Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 01:12:19PM -0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --R0SsnouPYaG+7rP6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 01:12:19PM -0000, Paul Richards wrote: > --On Thursday, November 01, 2001 13:52:01 +0000 Nik Clayton > wrote: > > As an aside, it also lets me do clever things. Because their interface > > is (effectively) an application where the URLs form command strings, I > > can write simple[1] Perl scripts that can go to the site, and pull down= my > > current balance for me. Which is actually quite handy. > >=20 > > I couldn't do that before. >=20 > So can somebody else. Eh? I still need the account details, pass code, and the answers to the security questions. But I can embed those in a text file, PGP encrypt the text file with my own public key, and have the script prompt me so that it can decrypt this data and use it appropriately. Which is still less hassle, and faster, than firing up a browser and navigating through a couple of web pages. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --R0SsnouPYaG+7rP6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvkINQACgkQk6gHZCw343UcOwCeKYihx9k05tciABXYK2rp+3zZ 7E8An28z4b7mDi72SgN8ZxvmxTtovisF =6yf0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --R0SsnouPYaG+7rP6-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 11: 5:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CAED37B417 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B30BCFA; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00674; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:05:20 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA3J3aK57337; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: David Johnson Cc: Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 03 Nov 2001 11:03:33 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> Message-ID: <63zo63brsq.o63@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Johnson writes: > The heart of the problem, IMHO, is that computers are our first general > purpose appliance. General purpose devices are harder to use than > specific purpose devices. I agree that they usually are, but they needn't be, except for the ability to use different physical interfaces. There's two problems: 1) G.P. devices usually get many more user-controlled features than the sum of the S.P. devices. 2) G.P. devices usually get crumier user interfaces than S.P. devices, for several reasons. Often the designer is a CLI-centric technoid instead of a artistic industrial designer. Often the same user- interface ideas will be used for each device emulation, compromising the usability of one or more. So the problem is that people are being offered tools with too many features without organizing them and giving them good defaults so that they can be as easy to use as older devices to do the same limited things while having the ability to do much more for those who want to learn their use. That gets you to the next level of problem though, because that organization makes the thing more difficult for the advanced user to use. Thus the increasing ability to reconfigure the UI. Using a CLI/configfile makes all features simultaneously available and about the only way to present varying levels of usage-difficulty is to give the "man" command a "--ignorance-level" option so it could present differently-targeted man pages to people. Showing a beginner the man page for "sh", "tar", "find", or "xterm" is a good way to send them running. I guess we sort of make our featureful CLI programs easy to use by offering The Handbook, e-mag articles, Linux HOWTOs and books. Well, it worked for me; no reason it shouldn't work for everyone else. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 11:47:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E33337B417 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 94034 invoked by uid 100); 3 Nov 2001 19:47:49 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15332.18917.367328.996483@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:47:49 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: David Johnson , Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <63zo63brsq.o63@localhost.localdomain> References: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> <63zo63brsq.o63@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > David Johnson writes: > So the problem is that people are being offered tools with too many > features without organizing them and giving them good defaults so that > they can be as easy to use as older devices to do the same limited > things while having the ability to do much more for those who want to > learn their use. If you haven't, find a copy of Raskin's "The Humane Interface", and read it. He argues - quite convincingly - that the real problem is that people are being offered applications at all. It's silly to have to start a "word processor" to deal with a document with words in it vs. having to start a "drawing program" to deal with a document with graphics in it when the operations on the two things are fundamentally the same: add, select, cut, copy, paste and set properties. To borrow the ever-popular automobile anology, it would be like having to load a different UI to park, drive on city streets and drive on a highway. > Using a CLI/configfile makes all features simultaneously available and > about the only way to present varying levels of usage-difficulty is to > give the "man" command a "--ignorance-level" option so it could present > differently-targeted man pages to people. Actually, you want it in an environment variable, so that the shell can control it. Every time you make a mistake, it raises the level. When you do a couple of things in a row right, it drops the level. Commands should also pay attention to it and provide more verbose output depending on how high it gets. Experiments with this kind of thing have been reasonably successful, though I'd be hard pressed to find the references. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 15:20:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BD137B409 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28A8BCB5; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32658; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:20:30 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA3NIjM57735; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:18:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> <63zo63brsq.o63@localhost.localdomain> <15332.18917.367328.996483@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 03 Nov 2001 15:18:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15332.18917.367328.996483@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <8r668rbfze.68r@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 45 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > If you haven't, find a copy of Raskin's "The Humane Interface", and > read it. He argues - quite convincingly - that the real problem is > that people are being offered applications at all. It's silly to have > to start a "word processor" to deal with a document with words in it > vs. having to start a "drawing program" to deal with a document with > graphics in it when the operations on the two things are fundamentally > the same: add, select, cut, copy, paste and set properties. Sounds like the main example application (and a guiding principle) of the X consortium's Fresco GUI toolkit. (It's a shame that's died, but some GPL vultures are devouring the carcass and might eventually make something of it.) Fresco also integrated the GUI kit itself and had the best menu/form/dialoge layout scheme around (and still, I suppose). That same application had the useless, but interesting, feature of being able to make copies of itself in a document which could be rotated, resized, etc. It was a little slow when created, but would be fine now (in the same same way X itself was). But regardless of whether you offer different applications, I'd think you'd still be left offering different documents or functions or features. Will it be better to use command options or menus or user-sensitive images to control your CD player or network? Etc... (I think the answer is that we want all methods to be available.) > Actually, you want it in an environment variable, so that the shell > can control it. Every time you make a mistake, it raises the > level. When you do a couple of things in a row right, it drops the > level. Commands should also pay attention to it and provide more > verbose output depending on how high it gets. Experiments with this > kind of thing have been reasonably successful, though I'd be hard > pressed to find the references. I thought you were kidding until that last sentence. I guess you can see a kind of beginner's man page in some of the GNU tool's "-h" outputs which try to be somewhere betweeen BSD's short "-h" output and a man page (and which I hate to see filling my shell window). Actually, come to think of it, the GNU "info" scheme might fit the bill better, in that the format allows for better-organized presentation of info, often at several layers of detail. I'm sorry so few people like "info"; I always have and thought it was a good compromise system that worked well enough with both a console and a GUI. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 15:55:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D248137B405 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 97927 invoked by uid 100); 3 Nov 2001 23:55:05 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15332.33753.98459.38100@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:55:05 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <8r668rbfze.68r@localhost.localdomain> References: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> <63zo63brsq.o63@localhost.localdomain> <15332.18917.367328.996483@guru.mired.org> <8r668rbfze.68r@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > Mike Meyer writes: > > If you haven't, find a copy of Raskin's "The Humane Interface", and > > read it. He argues - quite convincingly - that the real problem is > > that people are being offered applications at all. It's silly to have > > to start a "word processor" to deal with a document with words in it > > vs. having to start a "drawing program" to deal with a document with > > graphics in it when the operations on the two things are fundamentally > > the same: add, select, cut, copy, paste and set properties. > [...] > But regardless of whether you offer different applications, I'd think > you'd still be left offering different documents or functions or > features. Nope. Documents - as separate files - aren't part of the interface either. They're all part of the space you're working in, and you have the same set of functions available all the time. There are markers in the space to help you select documents, but that's no different in concept than selecting pages - or bars, or scenes - in a document. Some functions may not make any sense when applied to some selections in the space, but they are always there and available. > Will it be better to use command options or menus or > user-sensitive images to control your CD player or network? Etc... > (I think the answer is that we want all methods to be available.) Why should the CD be any different from any other data - other than probably being read-only? Select the CD - or whatever part of it you want - and use the "play" function. The same idea applies to the network, though "playing" the entire network probably won't work any better than playing your entire hard drive. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 16: 7:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75ED037B406; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21520; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:07:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:07:23 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15331.9687.734603.325845@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:01 PM 11/2/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >And yes, the ruling in question only applies in one judicial circuit, >but it can still be considered as precedent in other circuits. Sure, >it's a remarkably flimsy precedent - but it's *still* better than any >precedent you've quoted or I've been able to find to defend the >position that the ADA applies to commercial web sites. Sorry, but by the time one gets to court over such things one has ALREADY lost due to the great expense of such suits. The DoJ simply demands that things get fixed, and the parties comply because it's the right thing to do and the DoJ's interpretation makes sense. One barely related case isn't even worth citing as a defense. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 16:30:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BAABD37B405 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 98600 invoked by uid 100); 4 Nov 2001 00:30:07 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15332.35855.130990.367688@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:30:07 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 04:01 PM 11/2/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >And yes, the ruling in question only applies in one judicial circuit, > >but it can still be considered as precedent in other circuits. Sure, > >it's a remarkably flimsy precedent - but it's *still* better than any > >precedent you've quoted or I've been able to find to defend the > >position that the ADA applies to commercial web sites. > Sorry, but by the time one gets to court over such things one has > ALREADY lost due to the great expense of such suits. The DoJ simply demands > that things get fixed, and the parties comply because it's the right > thing to do and the DoJ's interpretation makes sense. One barely related > case isn't even worth citing as a defense. So why did AOL go to court with The National Federation for the Blind? And where are all the web sites that have been fixed, or cases that have been settled out of court because of this. The DoJ tracks these things, and nothing shows up in their records. In fact, the best evidence I could find is that the DoJ is in the same state I'm in - believing that the ADA applies to commercial web sites, but still waiting for a court case that will settle the issue once and for all. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 17:22:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252A737B406 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22173 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:21:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103182049.0428f970@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 18:21:54 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Aaaaargh! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This one is so bad I can't RESIST posting a pointer to it so that others can join in the chorus of moans and groans. http://cgi.mercurycenter.com/premium/comics/11_03/pc_and_pixel.gif --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 17:40:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B2237B405; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22309; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:40:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 18:40:09 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15332.35855.130990.367688@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:30 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >So why did AOL go to court with The National Federation for the Blind? Because, unlike the DoJ, the Federation doesn't have infinite financial resources and Time Warner has billions. Also, the Federation tends to settle for fewer accommodations than its rival, the American Council of the Blind. So, AOL is probably quite glad to have an opportunity to participate in a case where it can exhaust its opponent's resources and then go for a weak settlement. >And where are all the web sites that have been fixed, or cases that >have been settled out of court because of this. A suit is rarely even filed. For example, a DoJ team came to our local City Hall not long ago and demanded all sorts of accommodations, some of them unreasonable. No suit was filed and it didn't even make the papers. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 18:10:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 38D7F37B405 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 380 invoked by uid 100); 4 Nov 2001 02:10:01 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15332.41849.327680.753795@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:10:01 -0600 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 05:30 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > A suit is rarely even filed. For example, a DoJ team came to our > local City Hall not long ago and demanded all sorts of > accommodations, some of them unreasonable. No suit was filed > and it didn't even make the papers. It probably made the DoJ ADA enforcement newsletter, which tracks such things, and included - as of last May - exactly one case involving a web site. The DoJ's conclusion is the one that I quote, which is that there is *still* no firm decision as to whether or not the ADA applies to commercial web sites. If you have real evidence, I'd very much like to see it. If all you have is the opinion you've been repeating, I'll continue taking the DoJ's over yours. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 20:25:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14AF037B417; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23668; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:25:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103205742.04c02cb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 20:58:31 -0700 To: Nik Clayton , Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Supporting MS IE (was Re: NatWest? no thanks) Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011101135201.N99754@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <15328.13403.591620.246277@hyde.lpds.sublink.org> <20011031210224.A710-100000@howie.ncptiddische.net> <20011101095903.B43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BE126AF.F555A4E0@outpost.co.nz> <20011101112107.F43740@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:52 AM 11/1/2001, Nik Clayton wrote: >One of your earlier examples gives the lie to this. Smile (the bank I >use) switched from a slow, browser dependent, crash prone Java applet to >a CGI implementation. They've retained (as far as I can see) all the >functionality, and have transformed their online banking experience (for >want of a better phrase) from something that used to be very frustrating >to something that is much more convenient and (possibly psychologically) >much faster. > >As an aside, it also lets me do clever things. Because their interface >is (effectively) an application where the URLs form command strings, I >can write simple[1] Perl scripts that can go to the site, and pull down my >current balance for me. Which is actually quite handy. > >I couldn't do that before. If they don't do good checking on the command strings, you can probably also break in. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 20:42:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E51A37B406 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA23807 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:42:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:42:30 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200111040442.VAA23807@lariat.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Carpool from London to Brighton for BSDCon Europe? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I will be in London on Thursday and plan to head down to Brighton on Thursday afternoon or evening for the conference. If anyone happens to have a car and will be going the same way at approximately the same time, I'd be glad to pay a share of fuel costs (which, based on my past experience, is high but still not as high as train fare). Please e-mail to this address if you're interested in carpooling. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 20:54:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA98437B409; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23914; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:54:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103215324.0438fcf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 21:54:09 -0700 To: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <15332.41849.327680.753795@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:10 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >If you have real evidence, I'd very much like to see it. You can ask our City Manager if you'd like. He's one of many whom they've approached. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 21:10:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 08E9837B417 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3305 invoked by uid 100); 4 Nov 2001 05:10:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15332.52683.355872.604434@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:10:35 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103215324.0438fcf0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103183339.04ba6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103170327.051b5f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102153937.0434b8a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011102132958.051040c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101223208.00b3ec20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011101190545.03ed6330@localhost> <20011101164226.B47017@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20011103215324.0438fcf0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 07:10 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >If you have real evidence, I'd very much like to see it. > You can ask our City Manager if you'd like. He's one of many whom > they've approached. I guess I should have been more specific. If you have real evidence that is relevant to the topic, I'd very much like to see it. Just to make it crystal clear, the topic is whether or not the ADA applies to commercial web sites. Everyone agress that it applies to web sites funded - even if only in part - by public funds. The documents posted on the DoJ web site indicate they believe that the ADA should apply to commercial web sites, but in their best legal opinion is still "maybe". You appear to believe that the ADA does applies to commercial web sites, based on nothing stronger than your opinion. If that's wrong, and you do have real evidence that the ADA applies to commercial web sites, I'd like to see it. I'm sure the DoJ would be interested as well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 3 23:23:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6664637B416; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA47MtT83567; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 23:22:54 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01c16501$8514f380$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <15332.41849.327680.753795@guru.mired.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mike Meyer >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 6:10 PM >To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > > >Brett Glass types: >> At 05:30 PM 11/3/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> A suit is rarely even filed. For example, a DoJ team came to our >> local City Hall not long ago and demanded all sorts of >> accommodations, some of them unreasonable. No suit was filed >> and it didn't even make the papers. > >It probably made the DoJ ADA enforcement newsletter, which tracks such >things, and included - as of last May - exactly one case involving a >web site. The DoJ's conclusion is the one that I quote, which is that >there is *still* no firm decision as to whether or not the ADA applies >to commercial web sites. > >If you have real evidence, I'd very much like to see it. If all you >have is the opinion you've been repeating, I'll continue taking the >DoJ's over yours. > Let me throw in my $0.02 here: 1) Could you guys retitle this thread "ADA Website access" or something? NatWest disappeared a long time ago. Don't get me wrong I'm interested in how it comes out. 2) Getting back to NatWest, where is the evidence that IE is not blind accessible? For the sake of argument assume that ADA applies to commercial websites - well even if it did, it seems to me that there would only be grounds to sue if IE somehow could not be make blind-accessible. After all, consider a porno website - blind people aren't consumers of pornographic images and thus there is no access issue here, thus to make IE blind-accessible it would seem that all that would be necessary is to attach a braille terminal and get IE to work with it. Since blind people cannot by definition consume images, all that a braille terminal need display on a website is the textual information on the site. It may be cynical to say this but wouldn't it be cheaper if someone like AOL was sued for access problems, for them to simply work with Microsoft and release a blind-enabled IE than to redesign their many websites. Not only would it be cheaper but also profitable. 3) Even if there was a US Supreme Court ruling that mandated ADA for commercial websites, how would it apply if the website content was not about something that a blind person can use. For example, consider a Hewlett Packard HP Laserjet 4+. This device has a front panel that is triggered by buttons and used to select options on the printer. Depending on the option cards and SIMMS stuck in the printer the menues shown on the front panel are different. To get the printer options one must issue a test page that prints on a non-braille printout. Thus, there is no possible way that even if a blind person has all possible permutations of a LaserJet 4+ front panel menu memorized, plus all the buttons, that he or she can walk up to a HP Laserjet 4+ that he has never seen or used before and select options via the front panel because he has no way of knowing what menus will be displayed. Now, suppose I'm HP and operating under an ADA mandate, and I put out documentation for the HP Laserjet 4+ front panel on my website. Well, what possible use is it to make this documentation blind-accessible, because a blind person cannot use the front panel anyway even if they could read the docs, without assistance of a sighted person? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message