From owner-freebsd-i18n Mon May 14 16:22:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6737237B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4ENMXs61073; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:22:32 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: i18n@freebsd.org Cc: keichii@freebsd.org Subject: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010514162232.A61009@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I sent this to -current, but should have CC'ed this list. If you reply to this version of this email, please leave me on the CC line. ----- Forwarded message from David O'Brien ----- Subject: wchar.h / Citrus import Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:08:40 -0700 To: current@freebsd.org I am going to import parts of the Citrus Project XPG4DL (an implementation of I18N (locale) framework). We *need* wchar.h and we just cannot wait. If there are known concerns or issues with this, please let me know. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) ----- End forwarded message ----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Mon May 14 17:28:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9C437B424; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4F0SOL05776; Tue, 15 May 2001 04:28:24 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 04:28:23 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "David O'Brien" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010514162232.A61009@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010514162232.A61009@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:22:32PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 16:22:32 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > > I am going to import parts of the Citrus Project XPG4DL (an > implementation of I18N (locale) framework). We *need* wchar.h and we > just cannot wait. Yes, wchar.h (isw*() and other *w*() family functions) is good move, they are even in SUSv2: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/wchar.h.html But I am not sure about other Citrus parts - Citrus is not widely accepted standard, so not worse to be implemented. Does anybody knows light-weighted non-Citrus wchar implementations? -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Mon May 14 17:39:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E4737B424; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4F0dC362129; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:39:11 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010514173911.B62043@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010514162232.A61009@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru>; from ache@nagual.pp.ru on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:28:23AM +0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:28:23AM +0400, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > But I am not sure about other Citrus parts - Citrus is not widely accepted > standard, so not worse to be implemented. Does anybody knows > light-weighted non-Citrus wchar implementations? I found wcs package by David Cross . Its wcstring.h seems to be mostly everyone else's wchar.h. So I may just import that instead. My only need is to get the STLport to compile. Beyond that I do not care about the functionality of what ever wchar is part of. [I have zero I18N knowledge] -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Mon May 14 17:44:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1BE37B424; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4F0itK06265; Tue, 15 May 2001 04:44:55 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 04:44:54 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "David O'Brien" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010514162232.A61009@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514173911.B62043@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010514173911.B62043@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 05:39:11PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 17:39:11 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:28:23AM +0400, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > > But I am not sure about other Citrus parts - Citrus is not widely accepted > > standard, so not worse to be implemented. Does anybody knows > > light-weighted non-Citrus wchar implementations? > > I found wcs package by David Cross . Its wcstring.h > seems to be mostly everyone else's wchar.h. So I may just import that > instead. Yes. I think any restricted to wchar only variant will be much cleaner and less code bloat that non-standard Citrus. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Mon May 14 18:42: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335D537B43C; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4F1fwe63811; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:41:58 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: "Andrey A. Chernov" , i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010514184158.A63790@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010514162232.A61009@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514173911.B62043@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:37:00PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:37:00PM -0500, Michael C . Wu wrote: > Attached. > Change the locale names back to our case names. Is there some reason you have not committed this? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 0: 6:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp (rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp [61.121.193.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C0A37B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 00:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tshiozak@bsdclub.org) Received: from bondy.prod.astec.co.jp (bondy.prod.astec.co.jp [2002:3d79:c191:a:a00:20ff:fe8e:e310]) by rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3/prodgate/smtpfeed 1.12) with ESMTP id f4F76mf04983; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:06:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (aoi.prod.astec.co.jp [2002:3d79:c191:1a:2aa:ff:febd:6e6f]) by bondy.prod.astec.co.jp (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3/prodhub) with ESMTP id f4F76ig18543; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:06:48 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:06:44 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20010515.160644.08225620.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: ache@nagual.pp.ru, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import From: "T.SHIOZAKI" In-Reply-To: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514173911.B62043@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.95b121 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) X-My-Status: SuperAoiMoe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: "Andrey A. Chernov" Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 04:44:54 +0400 Message-ID: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 17:39:11 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:28:23AM +0400, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > > > But I am not sure about other Citrus parts - Citrus is not widely accepted > > > standard, so not worse to be implemented. Does anybody knows > > > light-weighted non-Citrus wchar implementations? > > > > I found wcs package by David Cross . Its wcstring.h > > seems to be mostly everyone else's wchar.h. So I may just import that > > instead. > > Yes. I think any restricted to wchar only variant will be much cleaner and > less code bloat that non-standard Citrus. Citrus XPG4DL has no non-standard APIs, as far as I know :-) This still lacks many standard APIs. When I imported FreeBSD locale stuffs to NetBSD, if anything, I slashed the non-standard APIs in the original code, that is rune. All APIs that David's package include are of cource required by XPG/5. But these are a little part of the standard. XPG/5 is quite a bloat :-) Actually, these functions are the simplest ones in the standard. XPG4DL has also these functions, and the implementations are as clear as David's ones. So, I indent to start out from these functions. -- Takuya SHIOZAKI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 0:42: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1EA37B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 00:41:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4F7fh810780; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:41:43 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:41:42 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: "David O'Brien" , i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010514162232.A61009@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514173911.B62043@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:37:00PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 20:37:00 -0500, Michael C . Wu wrote: > Attached. > Change the locale names back to our case names. By quick looking: 1) Since you redefine RUNE_MAGIC header #define _RUNE_MAGIC_1 "RuneCT10" there is no needs to keep binary compatibility fields in _Rune* structures. BTW, is RUNE_MAGIC format really changed? If not, RUNE_MAGIC redefinition is wrong. We are not NetBSD. 2) share/* part of this commit spam too many FreeBSD changes and naming convention and should be rewritted. I'e' no mkdir's in Makefiles, no ISO8859 names, we don't have DIS_ names too, other character tables naming convention must follow IANA charset specs for FreeBSD, don't touch existen tables when not needed, etc, etc. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 0:53:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8567137B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 00:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4F7qxq10884; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:52:59 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:52:58 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "T.SHIOZAKI" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515115258.B9263@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514173911.B62043@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.160644.08225620.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010515.160644.08225620.tshiozak@astec.co.jp>; from tshiozak@bsdclub.org on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 04:06:44PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 16:06:44 +0900, T.SHIOZAKI wrote: > So, I indent to start out from these functions. Ok, but please try to keep FreeBSD code as is when possible, i.e. please don't add NetBSD-specific variants when not absolutely neccessary. I worry because saw patch variant posted by Michael. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 4:49:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp (rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp [61.121.193.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F8FD37B43C; Tue, 15 May 2001 04:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tshiozak@astec.co.jp) Received: from bondy.prod.astec.co.jp (bondy.prod.astec.co.jp [2002:3d79:c191:a:a00:20ff:fe8e:e310]) by rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3/prodgate/smtpfeed 1.12) with ESMTP id f4FBnbf05646; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:49:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (aoi.prod.astec.co.jp [2002:3d79:c191:1a:2aa:ff:febd:6e6f]) by bondy.prod.astec.co.jp (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3/prodhub) with ESMTP id f4FBnbg12043; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:49:37 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:49:37 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, ache@nagual.pp.ru Cc: bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import From: "T.SHIOZAKI" In-Reply-To: <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.95b121 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) X-My-Status: SuperAoiMoe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: "Andrey A. Chernov" Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:41:42 +0400 Message-ID: <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> > BTW, is RUNE_MAGIC format really changed? > If not, RUNE_MAGIC redefinition is wrong. We are not NetBSD. This change is to keep /usr/share machine-independent. > 2) share/* part of this commit spam too many FreeBSD changes and naming > convention and should be rewritted. I'e' no mkdir's in Makefiles, no > ISO8859 names, we don't have DIS_ names too, other character tables > naming convention must follow IANA charset specs for FreeBSD, don't touch > existen tables when not needed, etc, etc. 1. Naming convention Just FYI, NetBSD locale names is bacically following to the primary name of X Window System locale, e.g. en_US.ISO8859-1, ja_JP.eucJP, ko_KR.eucKR... But, I think we need not to change the names already existing in FreeBSD. 2. mkdirs in Makefiles Just ad-hoc. I guess NetBSD people should remove them. 3. remaining DIS_8859-15.src Just historical reason. The code base of XPG4DL is FreeBSD-3.[234]. I guess NetBSD people should change the name. 4. IANA charset names vs. locale charset names I think locale charset names should be used for locale name only, except iconv_open(3) should accept both namespaces. 5. don't touch existen tables when not needed I'll do passably. -- Takuya SHIOZAKI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 4:54: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from starfruit.itojun.org (ny-ppp014.iij-us.net [216.98.99.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E970A37B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 04:54:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by starfruit.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A277C7; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:53:15 +0900 (JST) To: bsd-locale@hauN.org Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, ache@nagual.pp.ru In-reply-to: tshiozak's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 20:49:40 +0900. <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:53:15 +0900 Message-Id: <20010515115315.B3A277C7@starfruit.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> BTW, is RUNE_MAGIC format really changed? >> If not, RUNE_MAGIC redefinition is wrong. We are not NetBSD. >This change is to keep /usr/share machine-independent. in other words, if you want to support both i386 and alpha, with shared /usr/share, you need to acecept the change. /usr/share is supposed to be machine-independent. original runelocale implementation got it wrong and installed machine-dependent files into /usr/share. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 5: 2:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5694037B43C; Tue, 15 May 2001 05:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4FC2A414064; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:02:11 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:02:08 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "T.SHIOZAKI" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp>; from tshiozak@astec.co.jp on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 08:49:37PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 20:49:37 +0900, T.SHIOZAKI wrote: > > BTW, is RUNE_MAGIC format really changed? > > If not, RUNE_MAGIC redefinition is wrong. We are not NetBSD. > > This change is to keep /usr/share machine-independent. In that case we lose backward compatibility with old programs. Personally I not object, but in case we do this, 1) there is no needs to keep backward compatible placeholders in _rune* structures. 2) ntohl/htonl data conversion stuff from NetBSD should be activated (currently it is not). > 1. Naming convention > Just FYI, NetBSD locale names is bacically following to > the primary name of X Window System locale, > e.g. en_US.ISO8859-1, ja_JP.eucJP, ko_KR.eucKR... > But, I think we need not to change the names already existing in FreeBSD. X11 names are non-standard, there is no such names in IANA registry. Lets not repeat mistakes of others. > 4. IANA charset names vs. locale charset names > I think locale charset names should be used for locale name only, > except iconv_open(3) should accept both namespaces. No. There are standard rules how to build locale name from the language, territory and codeset. All three components are expected to follow standards, including codeset. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 5: 8:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E51B37B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 05:08:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id VAA00419; Tue, 15 May 2001 21:08:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id VAA17578; Tue, 15 May 2001 21:08:40 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id VAA24023; Tue, 15 May 2001 21:08:40 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:08:40 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105151208.VAA24023@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "T.SHIOZAKI" , bsd-locale@hauN.org, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import In-Reply-To: <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Tue, 15 May 2001 21:03:00 +0900, "Andrey A. Chernov" said: >> 1. Naming convention >> Just FYI, NetBSD locale names is bacically following to >> the primary name of X Window System locale, >> e.g. en_US.ISO8859-1, ja_JP.eucJP, ko_KR.eucKR... >> But, I think we need not to change the names already existing in FreeBSD. > X11 names are non-standard, there is no such names in IANA registry. Lets > not repeat mistakes of others. Huh? X11 names conform to OpenGroup (i.e. UNIX) standard. And IANA registery is nothing related to UNIX codeset names. Are you suggesting that FreeBSD should become different from any other UNIXen? >> 4. IANA charset names vs. locale charset names >> I think locale charset names should be used for locale name only, >> except iconv_open(3) should accept both namespaces. > No. There are standard rules how to build locale name from the language, > territory and codeset. All three components are expected to follow > standards, including codeset. Yes. And that is what citrus locale choosed. -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 5:10:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D3E37B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 05:10:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B8D4B0B; Tue, 15 May 2001 21:10:40 +0900 (JST) To: bsd-locale@hauN.org Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, ache@nagual.pp.ru In-reply-to: itojun's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 20:53:54 +0900. <20010515115315.B3A277C7@starfruit.itojun.org> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:10:40 +0900 Message-ID: <23703.989928640@itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>> BTW, is RUNE_MAGIC format really changed? >>> If not, RUNE_MAGIC redefinition is wrong. We are not NetBSD. >>This change is to keep /usr/share machine-independent. > > in other words, if you want to support both i386 and alpha, with > shared /usr/share, you need to acecept the change. > /usr/share is supposed to be machine-independent. original runelocale > implementation got it wrong and installed machine-dependent files > into /usr/share. i agree there should be backward-compat code for older file formats. (were there one already? i remember i put backward-compat code for old netbsd locale definition files) iotjun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 6: 3: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp (rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp [61.121.193.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B589037B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tshiozak@bsdclub.org) Received: from bondy.prod.astec.co.jp (bondy.prod.astec.co.jp [2002:3d79:c191:a:a00:20ff:fe8e:e310]) by rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3/prodgate/smtpfeed 1.12) with ESMTP id f4FD2rf05728; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:02:53 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (aoi.prod.astec.co.jp [2002:3d79:c191:1a:2aa:ff:febd:6e6f]) by bondy.prod.astec.co.jp (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3/prodhub) with ESMTP id f4FD2qg15047; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:02:52 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:02:52 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20010515.220252.112790593.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> To: bsd-locale@hauN.org Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, ache@nagual.pp.ru Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import From: "T.SHIOZAKI" In-Reply-To: <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.95b121 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) X-My-Status: SuperAoiMoe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: "Andrey A. Chernov" Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:02:08 +0400 Message-ID: <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> > > 1. Naming convention > > Just FYI, NetBSD locale names is bacically following to > > the primary name of X Window System locale, > > e.g. en_US.ISO8859-1, ja_JP.eucJP, ko_KR.eucKR... > > But, I think we need not to change the names already existing in FreeBSD. > > X11 names are non-standard, there is no such names in IANA registry. Lets > not repeat mistakes of others. I think this is just difference of policy. # I dare to say, wrong is MIME, historically. ;-) > > 4. IANA charset names vs. locale charset names > > I think locale charset names should be used for locale name only, > > except iconv_open(3) should accept both namespaces. > No. There are standard rules how to build locale name from the language, > territory and codeset. All three components are expected to follow > standards, including codeset. I know. "locale charset names" I said means "codeset" you said. "locale charset names" "IANA charset names" (NetBSD) eucJP EUC-JP ISO8859-1 ISO-8859-1 .... .... -- Takuya SHIOZAKI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 6: 8:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8B537B43C; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4FD8Ph14860; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:08:25 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:08:24 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Noriyuki Soda Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, "T.SHIOZAKI" , bsd-locale@hauN.org, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515170823.A14790@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151208.VAA24023@srapc342.sra.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105151208.VAA24023@srapc342.sra.co.jp>; from soda@sra.co.jp on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 09:08:40PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 21:08:40 +0900, Noriyuki Soda wrote: > X11 names conform to OpenGroup (i.e. UNIX) standard. Please give reference or citation. > And IANA registery is nothing related to UNIX codeset names. What is charset names standard source then? > Are you suggesting that FreeBSD should become different from > any other UNIXen? 1) Not become but already is, several years. 2) The same as other UNIXen is defferent between themselfs in that area. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 6:16:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6557F37B422; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:16:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id WAA06626; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:16:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id WAA17684; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:16:38 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id WAA24705; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:16:38 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:16:38 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105151316.WAA24705@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, "T.SHIOZAKI" , bsd-locale@hauN.org, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import In-Reply-To: <20010515170823.A14790@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151208.VAA24023@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515170823.A14790@nagual.pp.ru> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Tue, 15 May 2001 17:08:24 +0400, "Andrey A. Chernov" said: >> X11 names conform to OpenGroup (i.e. UNIX) standard. > Please give reference or citation. http://www.opengroup.org/publications/catalog/lo.htm >> And IANA registery is nothing related to UNIX codeset names. > What is charset names standard source then? OpenGroup, as I already said. There is no UNIX variant which refers IANA for codeset name. >> Are you suggesting that FreeBSD should become different from >> any other UNIXen? > 1) Not become but already is, several years. That doesn't mean FreeBSD should diverge more from the standard. > 2) The same as other UNIXen is defferent between themselfs in that area. That's wrong. Modern UNIXen (not only commerical UNIXen, but also Linux) comform OpenGroup standard locale names well. -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 7: 4: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D099237B422; Tue, 15 May 2001 07:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4FE3rO15462; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:03:53 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:03:52 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Noriyuki Soda Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, "T.SHIOZAKI" , bsd-locale@hauN.org, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515180352.A15380@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151208.VAA24023@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515170823.A14790@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151316.WAA24705@srapc342.sra.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105151316.WAA24705@srapc342.sra.co.jp>; from soda@sra.co.jp on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 10:16:38PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 22:16:38 +0900, Noriyuki Soda wrote: > http://www.opengroup.org/publications/catalog/lo.htm Sorry, I found no registered codesets names list at this URL and its subtrees. > > What is charset names standard source then? > > OpenGroup, as I already said. Please point to the OpenGroup's registered codesets name list. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 9:53:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C536E37B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id BAA21733; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:53:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id BAA18104; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:53:42 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id BAA25967; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:53:42 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:53:42 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105151653.BAA25967@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: bsd-locale@hauN.org, "T.SHIOZAKI" , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import In-Reply-To: <20010515180352.A15380@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151208.VAA24023@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515170823.A14790@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151316.WAA24705@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515180352.A15380@nagual.pp.ru> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Tue, 15 May 2001 23:04:10 +0900, "Andrey A. Chernov" said: >> http://www.opengroup.org/publications/catalog/lo.htm > Sorry, I found no registered codesets names list at this URL and its > subtrees. According to an article posted in FreeBSD-tech-jp mailing list (*1), the "L001 (ja_JP)" locale in above URL describes that codeset names for ja_JP locales (e.g. "eucJP" for Japanese EUC, and "SJIS" for Shift JIS). Older version of this document is available in the following URLs: Japanese version: http://www.li18nux.org/~numa/uocjle-a4.pdf English version: http://www.li18nux.org/~numa/uocjleE.pdf Please look at section 4.2 about the ja_JP codeset names. >> OpenGroup, as I already said. > Please point to the OpenGroup's registered codesets name list. Because I don't have a copy of the above catalog, I cannot point the codeset names for languages other than Japanese. But if you check existing implementations, you can find that almost all existing implementations return same names with the primary codeset names of X Window System. For example, nl_langinfo(CODESET) returns "ISO8859-1" for Latin 1, and "eucJP" for Japanese EUC on both Solaris, IRIX, Tru64 and Linux. And this is what Citrus locale returns. I believe there is no reason that FreeBSD diverges from the existing standard. (*1) http://home.jp.freebsd.org/cgi-bin/showmail/FreeBSD-tech-jp/2276 (This article is written in Japanese.) -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 12:22:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C2E37B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:22:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4FJM4U18952; Tue, 15 May 2001 23:22:04 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:22:02 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Noriyuki Soda Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, bsd-locale@hauN.org, "T.SHIOZAKI" , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-standards@bostonradio.org Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515232159.A18562@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151208.VAA24023@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515170823.A14790@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151316.WAA24705@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515180352.A15380@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151653.BAA25967@srapc342.sra.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105151653.BAA25967@srapc342.sra.co.jp>; from soda@sra.co.jp on Wed, May 16, 2001 at 01:53:42AM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 16, 2001 at 01:53:42 +0900, Noriyuki Soda wrote: > > >> http://www.opengroup.org/publications/catalog/lo.htm > the "L001 (ja_JP)" locale in above URL describes that codeset > names for ja_JP locales (e.g. "eucJP" for Japanese EUC, and > "SJIS" for Shift JIS). Does any person from our lists have access to some 8859-1 locale PDF from the URL above? I need to see exact standard text before any actions. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 14:42:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEA237B617; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4FLgZl11953; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:42:35 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "T.SHIOZAKI" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010515144235.B11813@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp>; from tshiozak@astec.co.jp on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 08:49:37PM +0900 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Where is the master source distribution for Citrus? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 17:29:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mail.mk.bsdclub.org (adsl4056.ea.rim.or.jp [202.247.150.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7BB37B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from motoyuki@mk.bsdclub.org) Received: from sakura.mk.bsdclub.org (sakura.mk.bsdclub.org [3ffe:505:2022:0:2a0:c9ff:fe20:9aff]) by mail.mk.bsdclub.org (8.11.3+3.4W/3.7W/smtpfeed 1.12) with ESMTP/inet6 id f4G0Tsv51333; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:29:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from sakura.mk.bsdclub.org (localhost.mk.bsdclub.org [127.0.0.1]) by sakura.mk.bsdclub.org (8.11.3/3.7W) with ESMTP/inet id f4G0Tsb78820; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:29:54 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105160029.f4G0Tsb78820@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org> To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "T.SHIOZAKI" , i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import From: Motoyuki Konno X-Mailer: mh-e on Mule 2.3 / Emacs 19.34.1 References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515144235.B11813@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:29:54 +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, "David O'Brien" wrote: > Where is the master source distribution for Citrus? Citrus Project Home: http://citrus.bsdclub.org/ Citrus Project Mailing List: http://www.haun.org/ml/b-l/index.html.en How to get citrus source: http://www.haun.org/ml/b-l/a/0/28.html -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Motoyuki Konno motoyuki@bsdclub.org (Home) motoyuki@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Project) http://www.freebsd.org/~motoyuki/ (WWW) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue May 15 19:42:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from gate.soum.co.jp (gate.soum.co.jp [202.221.40.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3325737B422; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:42:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uebayasi@soum.co.jp) Received: from force.soum.co.jp (force.soum.co.jp [3ffe:501:80a:1:a00:20ff:fef0:4c9c]) by gate.soum.co.jp (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4G2gXm14131; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:42:33 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from uebayasi@soum.co.jp) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by force.soum.co.jp (8.11.3/3.7W-2001031912) with ESMTP id f4G2gW129312; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:42:32 +0900 (JST) To: bsd-locale@hauN.org, motoyuki@bsdclub.org Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, tshiozak@astec.co.jp, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import From: Masao Uebayashi In-Reply-To: <200105160029.f4G0Tsb78820@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org> References: <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515144235.B11813@dragon.nuxi.com> <200105160029.f4G0Tsb78820@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.2 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Organisation: SOUM Corporation, Tokyo, JAPAN Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010516114232E.uebayasi@soum.co.jp> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:42:32 +0900 X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 11 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Citrus Project Home: > http://citrus.bsdclub.org/ I've introduced this page to people who're interested in I18N. Most of them looked disappointed by its poor contents. Just FYI. Masao --- |_ -|--|- _|__ /|\/|\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed May 16 13:38:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34B637B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4GKcYi09045; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:38:34 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Takuya SHIOZAKI Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Message-ID: <20010516133834.A8987@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org References: <20010514162232.A61009@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515042822.A5592@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514173911.B62043@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:37:00PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was quite taken back by your commit of the Citrus bits considering we were in the middle of a discussion about it. Anyway, can you educate us about your intentions for the future of this code? The committed files have style issues (RCS IDs are just one example). This code "feels" almost like src/contrib code. Or at least something we maybe wanted to vendor import (and not intertwine in src/lib/libc/string/) with its early life being treated simular to src/contrib/ and later as just normal FreeBSD code. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed May 16 18:14:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from white.imgsrc.co.jp (ns.imgsrc.co.jp [210.226.20.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7B937B423 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 18:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuriyama@imgsrc.co.jp) Received: from waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp (kuriyama@waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp [210.226.20.160]) by white.imgsrc.co.jp (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4H1EBQ17235; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:14:12 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:14:09 +0900 Message-ID: <7mu22ksroe.wl@waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp> From: Jun Kuriyama To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import In-Reply-To: <20010515232159.A18562@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010515114142.A9263@nagual.pp.ru> <20010515.204937.39033143.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> <20010515160205.A13868@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151208.VAA24023@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515170823.A14790@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151316.WAA24705@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515180352.A15380@nagual.pp.ru> <200105151653.BAA25967@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010515232159.A18562@nagual.pp.ru> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.4.1 (Stand By Me) SEMI/1.13.7 (Awazu) FLIM/1.13.2 (Kasanui) MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 14) (Cuyahoga Valley) (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.13.7 - "Awazu") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At Tue, 15 May 2001 19:22:33 +0000 (UTC), Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > Does any person from our lists have access to some 8859-1 locale PDF > from the URL above? I need to see exact standard text before any > actions. Is it possible to buy these standards by FreeBSD.org or other sponsor for our I18N manager? -- Jun Kuriyama // IMG SRC, Inc. // FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu May 17 0:24:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp (rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp [61.121.193.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BC337B423; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tshiozak@bsdclub.org) Received: from bondy.prod.astec.co.jp (bondy.prod.astec.co.jp [2002:3d79:c191:a:a00:20ff:fe8e:e310]) by rivendell.prod.astec.co.jp (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3/prodgate/smtpfeed 1.12) with ESMTP id f4H7OYf12074; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:24:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (aoi.prod.astec.co.jp [2002:3d79:c191:1a:2aa:ff:febd:6e6f]) by bondy.prod.astec.co.jp (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3/prodhub) with ESMTP id f4H7OXg29449; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:24:34 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:24:33 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20010517.162433.68560115.tshiozak@astec.co.jp> To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: tshiozak@FreeBSD.ORG, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import From: "T.SHIOZAKI" In-Reply-To: <20010516133834.A8987@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20010515044454.A6122@nagual.pp.ru> <20010514203700.A16280@peorth.iteration.net> <20010516133834.A8987@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.95b121 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) X-My-Status: SuperAoiMoe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: wchar.h / Citrus import Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:38:34 -0700 Message-ID: <20010516133834.A8987@dragon.nuxi.com> > I was quite taken back by your commit of the Citrus bits considering we > were in the middle of a discussion about it. > > Anyway, can you educate us about your intentions for the future of this > code? My intention for my workings I will do for FreeBSD is, if anything, not "import" but "feedback". Citrus XPG4DL is not from-scratch works but derived-works from FreeBSD. Certainly, the codes I've committed a few days ago are newly-built codes (however, these code are made for nvi-m17n by itojun and have been used for several years), but the most codes I intend to commit are just reforms of FreeBSD codes. From the first (about 20 months ago), I began the works for FreeBSD. I should feedback immediately, and I indented to do so at that time, but I didn't it by some reasons; I was not FreeBSD committer, I prefered that the feedback working was done by various committer rather than myself since I was migrating my main platform to NetBSD at the time, and I was busy by other works. Several Japanese FreeBSD committers offered to do it instead of me, but they seemed busier than me and let the work be. So, Umemoto-san lately invited me to do it by myself directly. I thought I'm adopted to FreeBSD committer for feedbacking XPG4DL to FreeBSD under already-concensused, and I felt I'm hurried up. David, I'm sorry, I misunderstood your message as hurrying me up. Under the current status, Cirtus XPG4DL has the two roles: 1. first-step code for porting FreeBSD locale stuffs to NetBSD, and 2. supplement of lacking faculties we need. The former role is coming to end. I just indent to return the improvement, as a result of the latter role of XPG4DL, to FreeBSD once again. After that, I indent to restart Citrus works. > The committed files have style issues (RCS IDs are just one example). I would be grad to point out more concretely or fix it yourself. Preferably, please fix style of the codes I'll commit as if they were a part of FreeBSD without constraint. Then, I'll re-import the codes to Citrus and NetBSD, if possible. -- Takuya SHIOZAKI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 8:45:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4E837B42C for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 08:45:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4IFjTt78640 for i18n@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:45:29 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:45:27 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: i18n@freebsd.org Subject: [haible@clisp.cons.org: Re: Is codeset locale part standartized by OpenGroup?] Message-ID: <20010518194526.A78503@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I made request to OpenGroup list about codeset part standartized or not. Here is reply indicating that X11 codeset registry is not maintained anymore, so we can't use their names in any cases. There is nothing in reply about OpenGroup's own codeset registry. ----- Forwarded message from Bruno Haible ----- Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:33:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Bruno Haible Subject: Re: Is codeset locale part standartized by OpenGroup? To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: austin-group-l@opengroup.org Andrey A. Chernov writes: > POSIX says it is 'implementation defined'. There is IANA > charsets list, but it is rarely used for codeset in implementations, The GNU system uses the IANA names, and among those, the preferred MIME name if available. Some OSes (AIX, IRIX, Tru64, Solaris) use the X11 names in some cases and proprietary names in other cases. Note the X11 name registry stopped being maintained a few years ago. Some OSes (HP-UX) use their own names, neither IANA nor X11 names. And FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD don't even implement nl_langinfo(CODESET). Bruno ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 9:37:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F155637B42C; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:37:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4IGbAe79287; Fri, 18 May 2001 20:37:11 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:37:06 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org Subject: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming Message-ID: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the spirit of GNU locale (which use IANA charsets too) I plan to rename our ISO_* locales to ISO-* ones, because ISO-* is preferred name according to http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets and we have only one locale name, it should be preferred. GNU locale use preferred MIME names in the first place too. Any comments? -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 9:53: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB18A37B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4IGqoF79479; Fri, 18 May 2001 20:52:51 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:52:45 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming Message-ID: <20010518205242.A79407@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru>; from ache@nagual.pp.ru on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:37:06PM +0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:37:06 +0400, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > In the spirit of GNU locale (which use IANA charsets too) I plan to rename > our ISO_* locales to ISO-* ones, because ISO-* is preferred name according > to http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets and we have only one > locale name, it should be preferred. GNU locale use preferred MIME names > in the first place too. > > Any comments? Other renames to preferred name: ASCII -> US-ASCII Other wrong names (not existed in IANA!) I find and plan for rename: ja_JP.EUC -> ja_JP.EUC-JP ja_JP.SJIS -> ja_JP.Shift_JIS ko_KR.EUC -> ko_KR.EUC-KR I doubt about this one: zh_CN.EUC There is no EUC-CN in IANA. What variant we should use? EUC-JP? -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 10:10: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from cartier.cirx.org (cartier.cirx.org [211.72.15.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114F937B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 10:09:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from clive@tongi.org) Received: from cartier.cirx.org (nullmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cartier.cirx.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f4IH9Ka03012; Sat, 19 May 2001 01:09:20 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from clive@tongi.org) Received: (nullmailer pid 3008 invoked by uid 1000); Fri, 18 May 2001 17:09:20 -0000 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 01:09:20 +0800 From: Clive Lin To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming Message-ID: <20010519010920.A2911@cartier.cirx.org> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010518205242.A79407@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010518205242.A79407@nagual.pp.ru>; from ache@nagual.pp.ru on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:52:45PM +0400 X-PGP-key: http://www.cirx.org/~clive/clive.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:52:45PM +0400, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > I doubt about this one: > zh_CN.EUC > There is no EUC-CN in IANA. What variant we should use? EUC-JP? Just zh_CN.EUC -> zh_CN.GB2312 would be fine. They (almost) mean the same thing, but in different names. -- Clive Lin (Tong-I Lin) =P clive@tongi.org - Family, friends, private affairs =F clive@FreeBSD.org - Chinese ports, documentation =O clive@CirX.ORG - Others =J .* - What do you think about the 'J' ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 12:22:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw1.be.to (mailgw1.be.to [210.235.212.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C6537B422 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from okazaki@be.to) Received: from mail1.be.to (mail1.be.to [210.235.212.2]) by mailgw1.be.to (8.11.0+3.3W/8.11.0/BETO3.11-20000907025324) with ESMTP id f4IJMPb00755 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 04:22:25 +0900 (envelope-from okazaki@be.to) Received: from REISHI (eatkyo03099.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp [202.248.218.99]) by mail1.be.to (8.9.3+3.2W/BETO.2.0-2000090621000000) with SMTP id EAA16693 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 04:22:25 +0900 Received: (qmail 483 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 19:13:55 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO acidrain.localnet) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 18 May 2001 19:13:55 -0000 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 04:13:54 +0900 Message-ID: <86pud6jwr1.wl@dolphin.be.to> From: OKAZAKI Tetsurou To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: i18n@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [haible@clisp.cons.org: Re: Is codeset locale part standartized by OpenGroup?] In-Reply-To: <20010518194526.A78503@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010518194526.A78503@nagual.pp.ru> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.5.8 (Smooth) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.2 (Yagi-Nishiguchi) APEL/10.3 Emacs/20.7 (i386--freebsd) MULE/4.0 (HANANOEN) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the message <20010518194526.A78503@nagual.pp.ru> "Andrey A. Chernov" wrote: > I made request to OpenGroup list about codeset part standartized or > not. Here is reply indicating that X11 codeset registry is not maintained > anymore, so we can't use their names in any cases. There is nothing in > reply about OpenGroup's own codeset registry. I tried Google and found ftp://ftp.opengroup.org/pub/code_set_registry/. > ----- Forwarded message from Bruno Haible ----- > Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:33:05 +0200 (CEST) > From: Bruno Haible > Subject: Re: Is codeset locale part standartized by OpenGroup? > To: "Andrey A. Chernov" > Cc: austin-group-l@opengroup.org (snip) > And FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD don't even implement nl_langinfo(CODESET). > Bruno It seems to be implemented in NetBSD. http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/basesrc/lib/libc/locale/nl_langinfo.c?rev=1.7&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&hideattic=0 -- Tetsurou To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 12:45:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1868B37B422 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4IJjX181087 for i18n@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:45:34 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:45:32 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: i18n@freebsd.org Subject: [eggert@twinsun.com: Re: Is codeset locale part standartized by OpenGroup?] Message-ID: <20010518234531.A81015@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Forwarded message from Paul Eggert ----- Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: Is codeset locale part standartized by OpenGroup? To: ache@nagual.pp.ru CC: austin-group-l@opengroup.org, Bruno Haible > Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:51:51 +0400 > From: "Andrey A. Chernov" > But the question remains: is OpenGroup have it own codeset registry or > rely on some 3rd party registry? Is OpenGroup have some reccommendations > in that area, f.e. IANA or X11? What about locales listed in > http://www.opengroup.org/publications/catalog/lo.htm > - they apparently use X11 names, not maintained anymore, as you say. I think it's too late in this round to fix this problem in the standard, but it may not be too late to add a comment about it in the rationale. I just submitted an aardvark about this, and proposed to add the following text to the rationale for iconv_open: Not only are codesets implementation-defined, their names are too. SVR4-derived implementations use X11 names in some cases (e.g., "ISO8859-1") and proprietary names in others (e.g., "iso88591"). However, the X11 name registry is no longer maintained. GNU-derived implementations use IANA-registered names, and among those, the preferred MIME name if available (e.g., "ISO-8859-1"); see . Application developers should consult the implementation's documentation to determine the supported codesets and their naming scheme. This proposed text steals shamelessly from Bruno Haible's earlier email summarizing the current situation. (Thanks, Bruno!) ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 13:13:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from ms1.din.or.jp (ms1.din.or.jp [210.135.65.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2947D37B440; Fri, 18 May 2001 13:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tshiozak@din.or.jp) Received: from localhost (ppp10-072.din.or.jp [210.135.74.103]) by ms1.din.or.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with ESMTP id FAA07109; Sat, 19 May 2001 05:11:01 +0900 (JST) To: i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org Cc: ache@nagual.pp.ru Cc: bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming From: "T.SHIOZAKI" In-Reply-To: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.95b3 on Emacs 20.6 / Mule 4.1 (AOI) X-Prom-Mew: Prom-Mew 1.94 (procmail reader for Mew) X-My-Web-Root: http://www.imou.to/~AoiMoe/ X-Organization: The I18n/M17n project On Unix environments (IMOU), Japan. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010519050946U.tshiozak@din.or.jp> Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 05:09:46 +0900 X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 43 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: "Andrey A. Chernov" Subject: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:37:06 +0400 Message-ID: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> > In the spirit of GNU locale (which use IANA charsets too) I plan to rename > our ISO_* locales to ISO-* ones, because ISO-* is preferred name according > to http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets and we have only one > locale name, it should be preferred. GNU locale use preferred MIME names > in the first place too. Your suggestion seems not so bad for me, because this policy is at least better than the current naming policy and there is a widely-used system that takes MIME names as the primary codeset names, that is Linux. Sure, the current locale naming policy of FreeBSD has several problems, e.g. "ja_JP.EUC" is absolutely wrong. # At this point, I'm more tolerant than Soda-san :-), # although I prefer "traditional" UNIX locale naming policy. I dare to say, - We should take an examination about the other policy at least once, that is the "traditional" UNIX locale naming policy taken by X, Tru64, HP-UX, etc. This convention is well used, although TOG no longer authorize nor maintain this name. On the other hand, Linux is the only system which uses MIME names as locale codeset now. - At least in Japan, nobody uses "ja_JP.EUC-JP". Instead, most Japanese people (even Linux users) use "ja_JP.eucJP" (and FreeBSD users still use ja_JP.EUC :-<). "ja_JP.eucJP" was determined by Japanese UNIX vendors' council and the effect of this past determination is still alive. We should prepare some aliases for such popular names, even if we take MIME names for locale codeset policy. - rename src/doc/ja_JP.eucJP once again? -- Takuya SHIOZAKI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 15:38:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1646337B422; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:38:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id HAA07609; Sat, 19 May 2001 07:38:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id HAA01690; Sat, 19 May 2001 07:38:22 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id HAA29872; Sat, 19 May 2001 07:38:21 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 07:38:21 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105182238.HAA29872@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: ache@nagual.pp.ru, i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org Cc: bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming In-Reply-To: <20010519050946U.tshiozak@din.or.jp> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519050946U.tshiozak@din.or.jp> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > In the spirit of GNU locale (which use IANA charsets too) I plan to rename > our ISO_* locales to ISO-* ones, because ISO-* is preferred name according > to http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets and we have only one > locale name, it should be preferred. GNU locale use preferred MIME names > in the first place too. It's highly suspicious to me. I still think that using X11 codeset name is better than using IANA registry due to the following problems. 6 questions. 1. As I already wrote, Solaris, Tru64 and IRIX uses "ISO8859-1". And X11's primary name of Latin-1 codeset is also "ISO8859-1". I prefer to use the name compatible with Solaris, Tru64, IRIX and X Window System, rather than the name only compatible with Linux. Note that Linux also supports "ISO8859-1" as locale's codeset suffix. So, if we use "ISO8859-1", we are still compatible with Linux, as well as Solaris, Tru64 and IRIX. If we use "ISO-8859-1", we are only compatible with Linux, and we become incompatible with Solaris, Tru64 and IRIX. Why do you think that it is better to become only compatible with Linux? For me, apparently "ISO8859-1" is better. 2. What codeset name will you use for codesets which are available on X Window System, but not defined in IANA registry? (Yes, there is such codeset in locales supported by X11, already.) If we follow the convention of X Window System, this problem never happens. Note that nl_langinfo(CODESET) of glibc-2 returns *WRONG* result for such locale. 3. IANA registry (MIME charset name) is case insensitive. Will you support case-insensitive codeset-suffix for locale name? Yes, codeset-suffix in glibc is case insenstive, although language part and territory part of locale name are case sensitive. i.e. ja_JP.EUC-JP, ja_JP.eUc-jP, ja_JP.EuC-Jp are all correct locale name on glibc, although ja_jp.EUC-JP is incorrect. If we use IANA registry for codeset name, we should support case-insensitive codeset-suffix as above. Will you really support this? 4. IANA registry (MIME charset name) has many name variants in one codeset. For example, "Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese", "csEUCPkdFmtJapanese" are same codeset with "EUC-JP". Will you support all variants for locale name? Yes, glibc supports all variants. e.g. the following names are all valid locale names in glibc: "ja_JP.Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese" "ja_JP.csEUCPkdFmtJapanese" "ja_JP.EUC-JP" "ja_JP.eucJP" (note that because MIME charset name is case insenstive, names which only differs about upper-case/lower-case are also valid. e.g. "ja_JP.eXTENDED_unix_cODE_pACKED_fORMAT_FOR_jAPANESE" is valid, too.) Will you really support this? 5. Why do you think that is is better *NOT* to follow OpenGroup standard? At least, "eucJP" and "SJIS" seem to be OpenGroup standard as I already said. And those names are not compatible with IANA registry. 6. Do you really think that the following name should be usable for locale name? "ja_JP.Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese" (I don't think so.) -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 16: 0:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F00737B422; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id IAA08129; Sat, 19 May 2001 08:00:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id IAA01723; Sat, 19 May 2001 08:00:15 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id IAA29954; Sat, 19 May 2001 08:00:15 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:00:15 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105182300.IAA29954@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: Clive Lin , i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org Cc: ache@nagual.pp.ru, bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming In-Reply-To: <20010519010920.A2911@cartier.cirx.org> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010518205242.A79407@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519010920.A2911@cartier.cirx.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Clive Lin wrote: > Just zh_CN.EUC -> zh_CN.GB2312 would be fine. > > They (almost) mean the same thing, but in different names. How about zh_TW.eucTW then? (zh_TW.eucTW is supported by both X11 and citrus). -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 16: 3:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7617137B422 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4IN3YI83268 for i18n@freebsd.org; Sat, 19 May 2001 03:03:34 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 03:03:32 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: i18n@freebsd.org Subject: [keld@dkuug.dk: Re: Is codeset locale part standartized by OpenGroup?] Message-ID: <20010519030332.A83245@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Forwarded message from Keld Jorn Simonsen ----- Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:53:22 +0200 From: Keld Jorn Simonsen Subject: Re: Is codeset locale part standartized by OpenGroup? To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: Bruno Haible , austin-group-l@opengroup.org On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 07:51:51PM +0400, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 17:33:05 +0200, Bruno Haible wrote: > > > > And FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD don't even implement nl_langinfo(CODESET). > > > > FYI, FreeBSD already have nl_langinfo(CODESET) in FreeBSD-5.0 not yet > released and FreeBSD use IANA registry for codeset. > > But the question remains: is OpenGroup have it own codeset registry or > rely on some 3rd party registry? Is OpenGroup have some reccommendations > in that area, f.e. IANA or X11? What about locales listed in > http://www.opengroup.org/publications/catalog/lo.htm > - they apparently use X11 names, not maintained anymore, as you say. There is an ISO registry, with locales and charmaps. It is available at http://www.dkuug.dk/cultreg The charmap names and contents are aligned with the IANA registry. Kind regards Keld ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 16:17: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF4537B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4INGLr83381; Sat, 19 May 2001 03:16:22 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 03:16:15 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Noriyuki Soda Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG, bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming Message-ID: <20010519031612.B83245@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519050946U.tshiozak@din.or.jp> <200105182238.HAA29872@srapc342.sra.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105182238.HAA29872@srapc342.sra.co.jp>; from soda@sra.co.jp on Sat, May 19, 2001 at 07:38:21AM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 07:38:21 +0900, Noriyuki Soda wrote: > I still think that using X11 codeset name is better than using IANA > registry due to the following problems. X11 codeset registry is outdated and not maintained, as replies says. > If we use "ISO-8859-1", we are only compatible with Linux, > and we become incompatible with Solaris, Tru64 and IRIX. > > Why do you think that it is better to become only compatible with > Linux? This is not compatibility question at all. POSIX clearly says that codeset names are 'implementation defined' - any variant will be right per POSIX. FreeBSD either can maintain its own codeset registry or use 3rd party one actively maintained. > 2. What codeset name will you use for codesets which are available > on X Window System, but not defined in IANA registry? > (Yes, there is such codeset in locales supported by X11, already.) If they are not in IANA registry, any variant will be right. > 3. IANA registry (MIME charset name) is case insensitive. > Will you support case-insensitive codeset-suffix for locale name? I don't think so, the same as for partial locale names - any relaxation there make locale sensing from programs much harder, i.e. like missing codeset name, etc. > 4. IANA registry (MIME charset name) has many name variants in one > codeset. For example, "Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese", > "csEUCPkdFmtJapanese" are same codeset with "EUC-JP". > Will you support all variants for locale name? There is 'preferred MIME names' marked. Since we currently support only one name, we should use prefered one. > 5. Why do you think that is is better *NOT* to follow OpenGroup > standard? Because there is no such standard. As replies indicates, OpenGroup don't attempt to cover this area. See reply about aardvark. > At least, "eucJP" and "SJIS" seem to be OpenGroup standard as I > already said. And those names are not compatible with IANA registry. See my CFR for rename. > 6. Do you really think that the following name should be usable > for locale name? > "ja_JP.Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese" > (I don't think so.) I too. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 16:57: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346CE37B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id IAA09407; Sat, 19 May 2001 08:56:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id IAA01806; Sat, 19 May 2001 08:56:54 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id IAA00242; Sat, 19 May 2001 08:56:54 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:56:54 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105182356.IAA00242@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming In-Reply-To: <20010519031612.B83245@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519050946U.tshiozak@din.or.jp> <200105182238.HAA29872@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010519031612.B83245@nagual.pp.ru> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Sat, 19 May 2001 08:17:09 +0900, "Andrey A. Chernov" wrote: >> I still think that using X11 codeset name is better than using IANA >> registry due to the following problems. > X11 codeset registry is outdated and not maintained, as replies says. The one who said this is Bruno Haible, and I know him in another context. He often shows clueless-ness about i18n, and shows different opinion against Sun and IBM's cheef architect about i18n. Perhaps Bruno made a mistake in this case too... If we support new codeset, apparently we should add its support to X11. So, X11 is still best place to maintain codeset name. (We can feedback it to X11 or XFree86). >> If we use "ISO-8859-1", we are only compatible with Linux, >> and we become incompatible with Solaris, Tru64 and IRIX. >> >> Why do you think that it is better to become only compatible with >> Linux? > This is not compatibility question at all. POSIX clearly says that codeset > names are 'implementation defined' - any variant will be right per POSIX. > FreeBSD either can maintain its own codeset registry or use 3rd party one > actively maintained. But there is no reason to choose *incompatible* name with rest of world. As I already said, "ISO8859-1" is compatible name with Linux, Solaris, Tru64, IRIX (and OpenGroup reply shows that "ISO8859-1" is also compatible with AIX). So why do you want the incompatible convention? The existing standard (ISO8859-1) is reasonable. There is no reason not to use the name. (BTW, the ISO registry referred in one of reply is apparently not suitable for UNIX codeset name, although probably you already noticed that.) >> 2. What codeset name will you use for codesets which are available >> on X Window System, but not defined in IANA registry? >> (Yes, there is such codeset in locales supported by X11, already.) > If they are not in IANA registry, any variant will be right. That makes FreeBSD incomplatible with rest of world. There is no reason to prefer incompatiblity, give that there is reasonable standard in X11. >> 3. IANA registry (MIME charset name) is case insensitive. >> Will you support case-insensitive codeset-suffix for locale name? > I don't think so, the same as for partial locale names - any relaxation > there make locale sensing from programs much harder, i.e. like missing > codeset name, etc. That avoids benefit to use IANA registry. If MIME charset name can be just used as codeset name like Linux, certainly it has its benefit. But if it cannot be used, why do you want to use IANA registry at all? >> 4. IANA registry (MIME charset name) has many name variants in one >> codeset. For example, "Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese", >> "csEUCPkdFmtJapanese" are same codeset with "EUC-JP". >> Will you support all variants for locale name? > There is 'preferred MIME names' marked. Since we currently support only > one name, we should use prefered one. That causes another incompatibility with Linux. For example, Linux uses "ANSI_X3.4-1968" rather than "US-ASCII" (preferred MIME name). So, if we choose IANA registry, all software which use codeset name should be re-written. Because your proposal is not compatible with Linux nor commercial UNIXes (Solaris, Tru64, IRIX and AIX). If we use X11 name, we don't have to rewrite much. Because X11 name is already supported (for commerical UNIXes). Also, there are MIME charset names which have variants, but don't have preferred MIME name. Because preferred MIME name may be defined for such MIME charset in the future, FreeBSD's name may become incosistent with IANA registry. >> 5. Why do you think that is is better *NOT* to follow OpenGroup >> standard? > Because there is no such standard. As replies indicates, OpenGroup don't > attempt to cover this area. See reply about aardvark. It seems their reply is not consistent, is it? I've asked same question to another OpenGroup list , and its reply is follows: >>>>> On Thu, 17 May 2001 16:39:31 -0400, Deborah May wrote: : I want to let you know that we have received your email. : At this point, I don't know the answer to your question, : but am trying to see if someone else within The Open Group : can help you. : : We will get back to you within the next couple of days. How about waiting for her answer for a while? >> 6. Do you really think that the following name should be usable >> for locale name? >> "ja_JP.Extended_UNIX_Code_Packed_Format_for_Japanese" >> (I don't think so.) > I too. So, your proposal is not only incompatible with commercial UNIXes, but also incompatible with Linux. Mmmm, how about using X11 name instead? -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 17:22:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88AF37B443; Fri, 18 May 2001 17:22:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id JAA10144; Sat, 19 May 2001 09:22:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id JAA01845; Sat, 19 May 2001 09:22:08 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id JAA00323; Sat, 19 May 2001 09:22:08 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:22:08 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105190022.JAA00323@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming In-Reply-To: <200105182356.IAA00242@srapc342.sra.co.jp> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519050946U.tshiozak@din.or.jp> <200105182238.HAA29872@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010519031612.B83245@nagual.pp.ru> <200105182356.IAA00242@srapc342.sra.co.jp> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I forgot to say one thing. ache> FreeBSD either can maintain its own codeset registry or use 3rd ache> party one actively maintained. Please use the Citrus project as the 3rd party which maintains codeset name. Actually, that is the reason why citrus project maintains unified source tree for both FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD. We, Citrus project, are trying to keep consistency between all BSDs, and trying to keep consistency with rest of the world, if it is possible. Some i18n specialist in commericial UNIX (e.g. Hiura-san in Sun) are also subscribing and actively posting to the citrus mailing list. -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 19:47:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from cartier.cirx.org (cartier.cirx.org [211.72.15.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD55137B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:47:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from clive@tongi.org) Received: from cartier.cirx.org (nullmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cartier.cirx.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f4J2lSa08227; Sat, 19 May 2001 10:47:29 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from clive@tongi.org) Received: (nullmailer pid 8223 invoked by uid 1000); Sat, 19 May 2001 02:47:28 -0000 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 10:47:28 +0800 From: Clive Lin To: Noriyuki Soda Cc: i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org, ache@nagual.pp.ru, bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming Message-ID: <20010519104728.A8118@cartier.cirx.org> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010518205242.A79407@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519010920.A2911@cartier.cirx.org> <200105182300.IAA29954@srapc342.sra.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105182300.IAA29954@srapc342.sra.co.jp>; from soda@sra.co.jp on Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:00:15AM +0900 X-PGP-key: http://www.cirx.org/~clive/clive.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:00:15AM +0900, Noriyuki Soda wrote: > Clive Lin wrote: > > Just zh_CN.EUC -> zh_CN.GB2312 would be fine. > > > > They (almost) mean the same thing, but in different names. > > How about zh_TW.eucTW then? > (zh_TW.eucTW is supported by both X11 and citrus). This is great ! But do I misunderstand you ? zh_CN.EUC and zh_TW.eucTW are different. BTW, the only Chinese document published in zh_TW.eduTW I have ever seen is by Sun Microsystems. > soda -- Clive Lin (Tong-I Lin)\n =P clive@tongi.org # Family, friends, private affairs\n =F clive@FreeBSD.org # Chinese ports, documentation\n =O clive@CirX.ORG # Others\n =J.* # What do you think about the 'J' ?\n To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 20:12: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE20137B43C; Fri, 18 May 2001 20:11:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id MAA18444; Sat, 19 May 2001 12:11:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id MAA02089; Sat, 19 May 2001 12:11:56 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id MAA00879; Sat, 19 May 2001 12:11:56 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:11:56 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105190311.MAA00879@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org Cc: bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming In-Reply-To: <20010519104728.A8118@cartier.cirx.org> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010518205242.A79407@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519010920.A2911@cartier.cirx.org> <200105182300.IAA29954@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010519104728.A8118@cartier.cirx.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Sat, 19 May 2001 11:48:08 +0900, Clive Lin said: >> > Just zh_CN.EUC -> zh_CN.GB2312 would be fine. >> > >> > They (almost) mean the same thing, but in different names. >> >> How about zh_TW.eucTW then? >> (zh_TW.eucTW is supported by both X11 and citrus). > do I misunderstand you ? zh_CN.EUC and zh_TW.eucTW are different. Yes, I know that. That's why they should have different codeset names. i.e. "eucCN" and "eucTW" (as already supported X11 primary codeset name). My point is that there is no MIME charset name definition for eucTW in IANA registry. And Linux implementation (at least Redhat 6.1) produces incorrect result for eucTW. In other words, one of examples that IANA doesn't work, and X11 works. -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 20:53:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EFA337B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 20:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4J3rY289062; Sat, 19 May 2001 07:53:34 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 07:53:33 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Noriyuki Soda Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG, bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming Message-ID: <20010519075333.C83245@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519050946U.tshiozak@din.or.jp> <200105182238.HAA29872@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010519031612.B83245@nagual.pp.ru> <200105182356.IAA00242@srapc342.sra.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105182356.IAA00242@srapc342.sra.co.jp>; from soda@sra.co.jp on Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:56:54AM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:56:54 +0900, Noriyuki Soda wrote: > > The existing standard (ISO8859-1) is reasonable. > There is no reason not to use the name. Yes, there _is_ that reason. In your case nl_langinfo(CODESET) returns _illegal_ and unusable MIME character set so you can't use it f.e. in mail exchange or any other MIME format compatible application. So, you need conversion table between illegal and legal character sets in case you suggest. I am strongly against such practice. Compatibility reasons weights very small comparing to that. > That avoids benefit to use IANA registry. > > If MIME charset name can be just used as codeset name like Linux, > certainly it has its benefit. But if it cannot be used, why do you > want to use IANA registry at all? Currently IANA registry codeset can be used in MIME applications as is and it is main benefit of choosing IANA and main X11 disadvantage. About case insensitive and aliased names at whole as you ask: this must be implemented in one direction only, i.e. ideally locale code must understand _any_ codeset, including X11 one, but nl_langinfo(CODESET) must return preferred MIME name only. Since we currently not implement both this features, we need to use exactly what nl_langinfo(CODESET) returns, i.e. preferred MIME name. > It seems their reply is not consistent, is it? > I've asked same question to another OpenGroup list > , and its reply is follows: > > >>>>> On Thu, 17 May 2001 16:39:31 -0400, Deborah May wrote: > > : I want to let you know that we have received your email. > : At this point, I don't know the answer to your question, > : but am trying to see if someone else within The Open Group > : can help you. > : > : We will get back to you within the next couple of days. > > How about waiting for her answer for a while? Ok. > So, your proposal is not only incompatible with commercial UNIXes, > but also incompatible with Linux. Mmmm, how about using X11 name instead? I explain my position about multi-names a bit earlier in this message. Currently such code is not implemented. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri May 18 22:38:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B55737B424; Fri, 18 May 2001 22:38:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from soda@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhf.sra.co.jp (sranhf [133.137.28.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.7W-sraigw) with ESMTP id OAA28208; Sat, 19 May 2001 14:38:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from srapc342.sra.co.jp (root@srapc342 [133.137.28.111]) by sranhf.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with ESMTP id OAA02314; Sat, 19 May 2001 14:38:42 +0900 (JST) Received: (from soda@localhost) by srapc342.sra.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W-sra) id OAA01191; Sat, 19 May 2001 14:38:41 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 14:38:41 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200105190538.OAA01191@srapc342.sra.co.jp> From: Noriyuki Soda To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: bsd-locale@hauN.org Subject: Re: CFR: ISO_* -> ISO-* locale renaming In-Reply-To: <20010519075333.C83245@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20010518203702.B79058@nagual.pp.ru> <20010519050946U.tshiozak@din.or.jp> <200105182238.HAA29872@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010519031612.B83245@nagual.pp.ru> <200105182356.IAA00242@srapc342.sra.co.jp> <20010519075333.C83245@nagual.pp.ru> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Sat, 19 May 2001 12:53:45 +0900, "Andrey A. Chernov" said: > On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:56:54 +0900, Noriyuki Soda wrote: >> >> The existing standard (ISO8859-1) is reasonable. >> There is no reason not to use the name. > Yes, there _is_ that reason. In your case nl_langinfo(CODESET) returns > _illegal_ and unusable MIME character set so you can't use it f.e. in mail > exchange or any other MIME format compatible application. So, you need > conversion table between illegal and legal character sets in case you > suggest. I am strongly against such practice. Compatibility reasons > weights very small comparing to that. You are missing point. It is existing practice that the return value of nl_langinfo(CODESET) is not usable for MIME charset name. So, *ALL* existing programs are using conversion table to convert nl_langinfo(CODESET) to MIME charset name. Interestingly, this is true on even Linux. Because Linux uses "ANSI_X3.4-1968" as nl_langinfo(CODESET) for ASCII as I already pointed out, and many programs only knows "US-ASCII" as MIME charset name for ASCII, programs usually have to convert "ANSI_X3.4-1968" to "US-ASCII" on even Linux. If a program depends on the fact that an OS retruns MIME compatible value as nl_langinfo(CODESET), such program is just not-portable. So, avoiding conversion table has no real gain at all. All programs are using such conversion table already. And all future programs also should use such conversion table in the future, because all commercial UNIX and even Linux returns unsable value as MIME charset name. >> That avoids benefit to use IANA registry. >> >> If MIME charset name can be just used as codeset name like Linux, >> certainly it has its benefit. But if it cannot be used, why do you >> want to use IANA registry at all? I said "benefit" above, but it is not *real* benefit, because portable code cannot rely on such behavior. > Currently IANA registry codeset can be used in MIME applications as is and > it is main benefit of choosing IANA and main X11 disadvantage. > About case insensitive and aliased names at whole as you ask: this must be > implemented in one direction only, i.e. ideally locale code must > understand _any_ codeset, including X11 one, That is very problematic approch. The codes which understand locale names are not only locale functions in libc, but also many userland programs. For example, look at charset.c in "less" program. "less" certainly parse locale name, and the way that "less" currently use is case *sensitive* (of course). If any locale code must understand _any_ codeset, there are really many programs that FreeBSD should modify. And most importantly, there is no real benefit to implement such complex rule (because the way is not portable at all). In contrast to your proposal, using X11 (or OpenGroup) locale name requires almost *no* code change at all, because they are already standard and already supported. >> So, your proposal is not only incompatible with commercial UNIXes, >> but also incompatible with Linux. Mmmm, how about using X11 name instead? > I explain my position about multi-names a bit earlier in this > message. Currently such code is not implemented. The way I proposed is same with what commercial UNIXes are already do, and it is already implemented on FreeBSD, and waiting for approvement for merging to FreeBSD. In contrast, your proposal is incompatible with commercial UNIXes, and incompatible with even Linux in some points. Why do you have to create yet another incompatiblity, even there is no real benefit? -- soda To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message