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From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" <uwe@ptc.spbu.ru>
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Subject: [Markus.Kuhn@cl.cam.ac.uk: Who still uses FreeBSD and why?]
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FYI.

SY, Uwe
-- 
uwe@ptc.spbu.ru                         |       Zu Grunde kommen
http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/            |       Ist zu Grunde gehen

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From: Markus Kuhn <Markus.Kuhn@cl.cam.ac.uk>
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Bram Moolenaar <Bram@moolenaar.net> wrote:
> I'm on FreeBSD 4.2.

*BSD has probably the worst locale support of all Unix variants
currently on the market, lagging several years behind what other OSes
offer.

I strongly recommend developers of i18n-related applications to to dump
their FreeBSD installation asap and get a Red Hat, SuSE or Debian
distribution installed instead, all of which are based on glibc 2.2 and
have not only state-of-the-art locale support but lot of other goodies.
I can think of no good reason today to stick with FreeBSD's antique C
library and it seems not on the horizon that the FreeBSD community will
also move to glibc any time soon.

At this point, the use of FreeBSD becomes really counterproductive.
Portable programming becomes now routinely hindered by the argument that
this and that nice X/Open, C99, etc. feature is available on any major
Unix except for FreeBSD.

The occasional FreeBSD user that I still run into usually has this
fundamental belief or idea that there is something inherently better
about the BSD kernel than Linux. There is this ideologic notion that BSD
is nicely structured, clean and academic, whereas Linux is an ugly dirty
hack, a notion that originated from the earliest history of Linux almost
a decade ago. But when challenged to back this up with any data, the
FreeBSD folks I know quickly admit that they actually haven't compared
the systems for several years at least and are unaware of the incredible
amount of work that was put into Linux in the mean time (repeated
complete clean and nice rewrites of very major subsystems like the
networking stack, etc.) [Warning: my praise for the Linux kernel
excludes the control function parser of the console driver ;-]

> You are probably going to suggest I install Linux instead...

The advantage of Linux is that it has managed to become a major standard
platform, second only to M$-Windows. I expect it seriously to overtake
the Microsoft platforms within the next 10 years, simply due to its
stability.

> I still haven't heard a reason why setlocale() needs to be case-sensitive.

It isn't in glibc.

Markus

-- 
Markus G. Kuhn, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge, UK
Email: mkuhn at acm.org,  WWW: <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/>

-
Linux-UTF8:   i18n of Linux on all levels
Archive:      http://mail.nl.linux.org/linux-utf8/

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Fri Jun  1 13:44:39 2001
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From: "Andre Charbonneau" <andrec@corel.com>
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Subject: langinfo...
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:39:48 -0700
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Hi,

I recently installed freeBSD 4.3 and I realized that the langinfo =
funcitons are not part of the system.  Is there anything else that I can =
use in my C programs to examine locale settings?

Thanks,

Andre Charbonneau
Software developer/architect, globalization
(613) 728-0826 ext 5612

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4208.1700" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I recently installed freeBSD 4.3 and I =
realized=20
that the langinfo&nbsp;funcitons are not part of the system.&nbsp; Is =
there=20
anything else that I can use in my C programs to examine locale=20
settings?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Andre Charbonneau<BR>Software =
developer/architect,=20
globalization<BR>(613) 728-0826 ext 5612</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Fri Jun  1 17: 8:59 2001
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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:08:51 +0400
From: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>
To: i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org
Subject: 2CFR: locale names renaming
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Well, I decide to move to X11 codeset and stay compatible with other *BSD
locale names, here is new proposed scheme:

*.ISO_*.src -> *.ISO*.src
map.ISO_* -> map.ISO* (in colldef)

*.ASCII.src -> *.US-ASCII.src

ja_JP.EUC.src -> ja_JP.eucJP.src

ko_KR.EUC.src -> ko_KR.eucKR.src

zh_CN.EUC.src -> zh_CN.eucCN.src

zh_TW.Big5.src -> zh_TW.BIG5.src

Any comments?

-- 
Andrey A. Chernov
http://ache.pp.ru/

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2  1:20:12 2001
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Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
References: <20010602040851.A34526@nagual.pp.ru>
From: CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>
Organization: Korea FreeBSD Users Group
Date: 02 Jun 2001 17:17:53 +0900
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>>>>> "AAC" == Andrey A Chernov <ache@nagual.pp.ru> writes:

    AAC> Well, I decide to move to X11 codeset and stay compatible with other *BSD
    AAC> locale names, here is new proposed scheme:

    AAC> *.ISO_*.src -> *.ISO*.src
    AAC> map.ISO_* -> map.ISO* (in colldef)

    AAC> *.ASCII.src -> *.US-ASCII.src

    AAC> ja_JP.EUC.src -> ja_JP.eucJP.src

    AAC> ko_KR.EUC.src -> ko_KR.eucKR.src

    AAC> zh_CN.EUC.src -> zh_CN.eucCN.src

    AAC> zh_TW.Big5.src -> zh_TW.BIG5.src

    AAC> Any comments?

Is backward compatibility preserved? Currently FreeBSD locale
system doesn't permit aliases, so if ko_KR.EUC changed to ko_KR.eucKR
(I definitely agree with it), it can break many application or user
configuration of locale.

-- 
 +++ Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my employers +++
 CHOI Junho [sleeping now]                    <http://www.kr.FreeBSD.org/~cjh>
 [while sleeping] <cjh @ kr.FreeBSD.ORG> <cjh @ FreeBSD.ORG> <cjh @ wdb.co.kr>
 Korea FreeBSD Users Group <www.kr.FreeBSD.org>   Web Data Bank<www.wdb.co.kr>

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2  3:31:55 2001
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From: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>
To: CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
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On Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:17:53 +0900, CHOI Junho wrote:
> 
> Is backward compatibility preserved? Currently FreeBSD locale
> system doesn't permit aliases, so if ko_KR.EUC changed to ko_KR.eucKR
> (I definitely agree with it), it can break many application or user
> configuration of locale.

It is possible (via symlinks) but I don't think it is good idea, even for
transition period. If we preserve compatibility, people never change their
environment LANG variables, so programs which parse LANG directly will be
in trouble since in each and every such programs we need to add both
variants. So there is no advantage of using new scheme since old scheme
must be coded each time too. We already have too many locale changes in
-current to make it is already incompatible with 4.3 locale, so yet one
incompatible change don't play role here.

-- 
Andrey A. Chernov
http://ache.pp.ru/

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2  4: 9:12 2001
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Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
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	<86ofs7thvy.fsf@gradius.wdb.co.kr>
	<20010602143139.A43237@nagual.pp.ru>
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>>>>> "AAC" == Andrey A Chernov <ache@nagual.pp.ru> writes:

    AAC> It is possible (via symlinks) but I don't think it is good idea, even for
    AAC> transition period. If we preserve compatibility, people never change their
    AAC> environment LANG variables, so programs which parse LANG directly will be
    AAC> in trouble since in each and every such programs we need to add both
    AAC> variants. So there is no advantage of using new scheme since old scheme
    AAC> must be coded each time too. We already have too many locale changes in
    AAC> -current to make it is already incompatible with 4.3 locale, so yet one
    AAC> incompatible change don't play role here.

If so, why we still have libxpg4 in -current? We can remove that dummy
library now.

-- 
 +++ Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my employers +++
 CHOI Junho [sleeping now]                    <http://www.kr.FreeBSD.org/~cjh>
 [while sleeping] <cjh @ kr.FreeBSD.ORG> <cjh @ FreeBSD.ORG> <cjh @ wdb.co.kr>
 Korea FreeBSD Users Group <www.kr.FreeBSD.org>   Web Data Bank<www.wdb.co.kr>

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2  4:51:21 2001
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From: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>
To: CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: i18n@freebsd.org, audit@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
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On Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 20:07:01 +0900, CHOI Junho wrote:
> >>>>> "AAC" == Andrey A Chernov <ache@nagual.pp.ru> writes:
> 
>     AAC> It is possible (via symlinks) but I don't think it is good idea, even for
>     AAC> transition period. If we preserve compatibility, people never change their
>     AAC> environment LANG variables, so programs which parse LANG directly will be
>     AAC> in trouble since in each and every such programs we need to add both
>     AAC> variants. So there is no advantage of using new scheme since old scheme
>     AAC> must be coded each time too. We already have too many locale changes in
>     AAC> -current to make it is already incompatible with 4.3 locale, so yet one
>     AAC> incompatible change don't play role here.
> 
> If so, why we still have libxpg4 in -current? We can remove that dummy
> library now.

I will not object. BTW, the case you mention is different because no
per-program changes required with or without libxpg4.

-- 
Andrey A. Chernov
http://ache.pp.ru/

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2  6:45:29 2001
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Cc: CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG,
	audit@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
From: Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org>
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"Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru> wrote:
> It is possible (via symlinks) but I don't think it is good idea, even for
> transition period. If we preserve compatibility, people never change their
> environment LANG variables, so programs which parse LANG directly will be
> in trouble since in each and every such programs we need to add both
> variants.

In Japan, many scripts and many programs set LANG environment variable.
For example, see ports/japanese/mozilla-jlp/files/mozilla.{no,}xpg4.

--------
#!/bin/sh

LANG=ja_JP.EUC; export LANG

cd @PREFIX@/lib/mozilla
exec ./mozilla "$@"
--------

So, we have to take enough time for transition period.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motoyuki Konno                  motoyuki@bsdclub.org             (Home)
                                motoyuki@FreeBSD.ORG  (FreeBSD Project)
                                http://www.freebsd.org/~motoyuki/ (WWW)

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2  9:27: 8 2001
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Cc: ache@nagual.pp.ru, cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG,
	audit@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
From: Hajimu UMEMOTO <ume@mahoroba.org>
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>>>>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:45:19 +0900
>>>>> Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org> said:

motoyuki> "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru> wrote:
> It is possible (via symlinks) but I don't think it is good idea, even for
> transition period. If we preserve compatibility, people never change their
> environment LANG variables, so programs which parse LANG directly will be
> in trouble since in each and every such programs we need to add both
> variants.

motoyuki> In Japan, many scripts and many programs set LANG environment variable.
motoyuki> For example, see ports/japanese/mozilla-jlp/files/mozilla.{no,}xpg4.

Changing to use ja_JP.eucJP instead of ja_JP.EUC is good thing.
However, ja_JP.EUC is widely deployed and we Japanese have been using
ja_JP.EUC for a long time.  Cannot we have alias to former ja_JP.EUC?

--
Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan
ume@mahoroba.org  ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp  ume@{,jp.}FreeBSD.org
http://www.imasy.org/~ume/

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2 13:22:30 2001
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From: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>
To: Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org>
Cc: CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG,
	audit@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
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References: <20010602040851.A34526@nagual.pp.ru> <86ofs7thvy.fsf@gradius.wdb.co.kr> <20010602143139.A43237@nagual.pp.ru> <200106021345.f52DjJ218044@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org>
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On Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:45:19 +0900, Motoyuki Konno wrote:
> "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru> wrote:
> > It is possible (via symlinks) but I don't think it is good idea, even for
> > transition period. If we preserve compatibility, people never change their
> > environment LANG variables, so programs which parse LANG directly will be
> > in trouble since in each and every such programs we need to add both
> > variants.
> 
> So, we have to take enough time for transition period.

Transition period means just delay whole thing until transition period
end. After the end the same thing happens like without transition period,
because people don't touch their setups when they works, so you can
consider that transition period ends now.

-- 
Andrey A. Chernov
http://ache.pp.ru/

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2 13:23:15 2001
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From: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>
To: Hajimu UMEMOTO <ume@mahoroba.org>
Cc: motoyuki@bsdclub.org, cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG,
	audit@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
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References: <86ofs7thvy.fsf@gradius.wdb.co.kr> <20010602143139.A43237@nagual.pp.ru> <200106021345.f52DjJ218044@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org> <20010603.012551.08401034.ume@mahoroba.org>
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On Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 01:25:51 +0900, Hajimu UMEMOTO wrote:
> Changing to use ja_JP.eucJP instead of ja_JP.EUC is good thing.
> However, ja_JP.EUC is widely deployed and we Japanese have been using
> ja_JP.EUC for a long time.  Cannot we have alias to former ja_JP.EUC?

I already describe why having alias is bad.

-- 
Andrey A. Chernov
http://ache.pp.ru/

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2 13:24:48 2001
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Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 00:24:29 +0400
From: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>
To: Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org>
Cc: CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG,
	audit@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
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References: <20010602040851.A34526@nagual.pp.ru> <86ofs7thvy.fsf@gradius.wdb.co.kr> <20010602143139.A43237@nagual.pp.ru> <200106021345.f52DjJ218044@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org> <20010603002153.A48861@nagual.pp.ru>
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On Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:21:53 +0400, Andrey A. Chernov wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:45:19 +0900, Motoyuki Konno wrote:
> > "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru> wrote:
> > > It is possible (via symlinks) but I don't think it is good idea, even for
> > > transition period. If we preserve compatibility, people never change their
> > > environment LANG variables, so programs which parse LANG directly will be
> > > in trouble since in each and every such programs we need to add both
> > > variants.
> > 
> > So, we have to take enough time for transition period.
> 
> Transition period means just delay whole thing until transition period
> end. After the end the same thing happens like without transition period,
> because people don't touch their setups when they works, so you can
> consider that transition period ends now.

Remember this is for -current only and not planned to be merged to -stable
so you have _big_ transition period until 5.0 will be released.

-- 
Andrey A. Chernov
http://ache.pp.ru/

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2 17:36: 5 2001
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Cc: Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org>,
	CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
From: Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org>
X-Mailer: mh-e on Mule 2.3 / Emacs 19.34.1
References: <20010602040851.A34526@nagual.pp.ru> <86ofs7thvy.fsf@gradius.wdb.co.kr> <20010602143139.A43237@nagual.pp.ru> <200106021345.f52DjJ218044@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org>
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"Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru> wrote:
> > So, we have to take enough time for transition period.
> 
> Transition period means just delay whole thing until transition period
> end. After the end the same thing happens like without transition period,
> because people don't touch their setups when they works, so you can
> consider that transition period ends now.

If so, why both ru_SU.* and ru_RU.* co-exist in 4-stable?
We took a long time for transition from ru_SU to ru_RU.

3-stable branch  (all 3.*-RELEASE) : ru_RU.* only
4-stable branch  (all 4.*-RELEASE) : ru_RU.* and ru_SU.*
5-current branch (5.*-RELEASE ?)   : ru_SU.* only


I think immediate transition (even in -current) is a bad idea.
I propose the following plan.

5-current (5-stable after 5.0-RELEASE) branch : both old and new locale
future 6-currnt branch : only new locale

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motoyuki Konno                  motoyuki@bsdclub.org             (Home)
                                motoyuki@FreeBSD.ORG  (FreeBSD Project)
                                http://www.freebsd.org/~motoyuki/ (WWW)

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2 17:53:53 2001
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Cc: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>,
	CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, audit@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
From: Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org>
X-Mailer: mh-e on Mule 2.3 / Emacs 19.34.1
References: <20010602040851.A34526@nagual.pp.ru> <86ofs7thvy.fsf@gradius.wdb.co.kr> <20010602143139.A43237@nagual.pp.ru> <200106021345.f52DjJ218044@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org> <20010603002153.A48861@nagual.pp.ru>
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Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org> wrote:
> If so, why both ru_SU.* and ru_RU.* co-exist in 4-stable?
> We took a long time for transition from ru_SU to ru_RU.
> 
> 3-stable branch  (all 3.*-RELEASE) : ru_RU.* only
> 4-stable branch  (all 4.*-RELEASE) : ru_RU.* and ru_SU.*
> 5-current branch (5.*-RELEASE ?)   : ru_SU.* only

I found typo. correct is:

: 3-stable branch  (all 3.*-RELEASE) : ru_SU.* only
: 4-stable branch  (all 4.*-RELEASE) : ru_SU.* and ru_RU.*
: 5-current branch (5.*-RELEASE ?)   : ru_RU.* only

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motoyuki Konno                  motoyuki@bsdclub.org             (Home)
                                motoyuki@FreeBSD.ORG  (FreeBSD Project)
                                http://www.freebsd.org/~motoyuki/ (WWW)

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From owner-freebsd-i18n  Sat Jun  2 22:28:14 2001
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Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:27:47 +0400
From: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>
To: Motoyuki Konno <motoyuki@bsdclub.org>
Cc: CHOI Junho <cjh@kr.FreeBSD.ORG>, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG,
	audit@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2CFR: locale names renaming
Message-ID: <20010603092746.A53677@nagual.pp.ru>
References: <20010602040851.A34526@nagual.pp.ru> <86ofs7thvy.fsf@gradius.wdb.co.kr> <20010602143139.A43237@nagual.pp.ru> <200106021345.f52DjJ218044@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org> <20010603002153.A48861@nagual.pp.ru> <200106030035.f530Zu247879@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org>
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In-Reply-To: <200106030035.f530Zu247879@sakura.mk.bsdclub.org>; from motoyuki@bsdclub.org on Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 09:35:56AM +0900
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On Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 09:35:56 +0900, Motoyuki Konno wrote:
> "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru> wrote:
> > > So, we have to take enough time for transition period.
> > 
> > Transition period means just delay whole thing until transition period
> > end. After the end the same thing happens like without transition period,
> > because people don't touch their setups when they works, so you can
> > consider that transition period ends now.
> 
> If so, why both ru_SU.* and ru_RU.* co-exist in 4-stable?

They should not. ru_SU should be deleted. I don't have -stable machine
available and can't devote time for its development, so don't know
exact state of -stable changes made by other people.

> 5-current (5-stable after 5.0-RELEASE) branch : both old and new locale

It is already impossible, -current and -stable locales are incompatible.

-- 
Andrey A. Chernov
http://ache.pp.ru/

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