From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 11 12:56:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D26D37B404; Sun, 11 May 2003 12:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628D943FAF; Sun, 11 May 2003 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4BJuX4P074648; Sun, 11 May 2003 21:56:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: "'Terry Lambert'" , "'Doug Barton'" Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:56:31 +0200 Message-ID: <002301c317f7$6c4d92d0$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:56:44 -0000 > > and I can't think of any civilized state where adultery > is illegal. > > > > The limitations of your knowledge are not my > responsibility. :) To take a > > trivial example, the Uniform Code of Military Justice in the US has > > penalties for adultery, although I'm not enough of an > expert to make the > > distinction of whether it proclaims it "illegal," which is > an oft-misused > > term. > > If you are thinking of the (relatively) recent media feeding > frenzy, it was not a courts-marshall over adultery, per se, > it was a courts-marshall over disobeying a direct order to not > engage in adultery. That's a totally different issue (Article > 15). The media made it about adultry, because adultry was more > salable to their consumers than the reality. > Article 15 referes to the "Non-Judicial Punishment" that people recieve (called many different things in varying branches of the military, Article 15, Office Hours, Captain's Mast).. (A quick history of the UCMJ and some general info on it can be found at: http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_milj.html) For an on-line version of the UCMJ (although a bit dated, it's the 1997 edition of the MCM or Manual for Courts Martial, which contains the UCMJ articles) see: http://www.constitution.org/mil/ucmj19970615.htm The term "Non-Judicial Punishment" can be though of more of an administrative action, since the punishment awarded (yes, the punishment is awarded since it is not a sentencing) is non-judicial in manner. A conviction at a Court Martial trial is judicial in nature. For the Article 15, there is an investigation (Article 32, if I remember correctly). The punishment at the Article 15 is awarded during a formal "hearing" by the unit commander (the commanding officer. depending on the branch of service, it depends on who has the "NJP" (Non-Judicial Punishment) authority. In the Marine Corps it's your Company Commander (an O3 or Captain). In the Navy, it's normally the Commanding Officer of the command you are at. I believe Army operates in a simlar manner to the Marine Corps. Not sure about the Air Force. Articles 77 - 134 are called the Punitive articles - what people are charged with when they face an Article 15 (or Courts Martial). What you were referring to, the disobeying a lawful order would have fallen under Article 92: Failure to obey order or regulation. Although they could have, depending on who gave the order, could have been charged with Article 90: Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer as well. Punishments recieved can include: Reduction in rank Suspention of pay (basically 1/2 a month's pay taken over the period of like 2 months). etc. (There are different "punishments" for both Officers and Enlisted personnel). If anyone is interested in the UCMJ, the links above give some interesting information. The one thing that you have to remember: the UCMJ is totally different from the civilian justice system. Hope this helps.. :) -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 11 13:18:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FFA037B401; Sun, 11 May 2003 13:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65F343FA3; Sun, 11 May 2003 13:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4BKHx4P074802; Sun, 11 May 2003 22:18:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: "'Dag-Erling Smorgrav'" , "'John Baldwin'" Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:17:57 +0200 Message-ID: <002401c317fa$6a41dcf0$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal cc: 'Viktor Lazlo' cc: ulf@Alameda.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:18:11 -0000 > John Baldwin writes: > > No, they were initialliy acquired by WRS along with the > other software > > assets of BSDi. Only the hardware portion of BSDi was > split off at the > > acquisition. Later the FreeBSD side of BSDi at WRS was > laid off and the > > FreeBSD CDROM production and web store were bought by the > original owner > > of Walnut Creek CDROM. Hence the confusion. My best guess > is that WRS > > still holds the FreeBSD trademark. > > According to the USPTO's online search engine, it is still registered > to WC, which is "suspended" - but I imagine that WRS hold all the > shares. > > DES > -- Hmm, anybody up to see if the FreeBSD Foundation can legally acquire the FreeBSD trademark and all it represents from WRS? And if so, at what price? Anybody from the Foundation reading this? -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 12 15:59:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8AE737B401 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 15:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395ED43FAF for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 15:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4CMx14P086631 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 00:59:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:59:01 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305130059.01754.olivas@digiflux.org> Subject: WarBSD 0.1 Released X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:59:09 -0000 WarBSD 0.1? Yeah, it's a little hack I did of PicoBSD .500 (using the FreeBSD 5.0-RELEASE-p7 source tree). After seeing WarLinux and how it used an embedded version of Linux to get the job done, I started wondering if PicoBSD could be used for the same thing. It can. After a few hours of hacking I got it done. It wasn't until recently that I decided to make it public. So, if you want to see my first attempt at dong something interesting with FreeBSD surf on over to the temporary home of WarBSD at http://digiflux.org/warbsd There you will find some general information and the source tarball that you can download and (if you have the FreeBSD source tree on your system) you can build your own copy. The system boots. I've got it using bsd-airtools for it's wireless sniffer. I'm running into a problem with the wi network driver. The README file tells you about it. I've decided to release this in hopes that someone will find it useful and maybe even point to way to getting it working right. Let me know what you think. Send all comments, suggestion, flames, etc to my address above. Thanks -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 12 17:33:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7813F37B401 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 17:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019E043F85 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 17:33:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h4D0XkfE005881 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 10:33:46 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:33:46 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305131033.46180.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Subject: good regular expression function for c/c++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:33:52 -0000 Hey, Just a quick one, google seems to have thousands of different implementations for re's, does anyone here actually know of a good one? . . . thanks, jacob Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 12 17:40:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1077237B404 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 17:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C5A943F93 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 17:40:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8471910BF84; Tue, 13 May 2003 02:40:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 02:40:46 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: JacobRhoden Message-ID: <20030513004045.GP992@nitro.dk> References: <200305131033.46180.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AptwxgnoZDC4KQWS" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305131033.46180.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good regular expression function for c/c++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:40:48 -0000 --AptwxgnoZDC4KQWS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003.05.13 10:33:46 +1000, JacobRhoden wrote: > Just a quick one, google seems to have thousands of different implementat= ions=20 > for re's, does anyone here actually know of a good one? . . .=20 Perhaps regex(3) or ports/devel/pcre ? --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --AptwxgnoZDC4KQWS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+wD8N8kocFXgPTRwRAn5fAKC6DPkOVTIrgtNgO9RMrRVABm+bcQCfUuT8 n6W6fqnPlAxHm0dGX3SRc6k= =WP/4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AptwxgnoZDC4KQWS-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 12 18:07:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B4D37B401 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 18:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E5F43F93 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 18:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h4D0rKfE007277 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 10:53:20 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:53:20 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305131033.46180.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030513004045.GP992@nitro.dk> In-Reply-To: <20030513004045.GP992@nitro.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305131053.20558.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Subject: Re: good regular expression function for c/c++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 01:07:32 -0000 On Tue, 13 May 2003 10:40 am, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > On 2003.05.13 10:33:46 +1000, JacobRhoden wrote: > > Just a quick one, google seems to have thousands of different > > implementations for re's, does anyone here actually know of a good one? . > > . . > > Perhaps regex(3) or ports/devel/pcre ? oops, I forgot to mentioned, preferably bsd style liscenced.. (I dont want to have to show people my code... it has some algorithms which become useless if people can easily see them).. i will probably use pcre if i can find nothing else. Would also like it to compile in win32 if possible, and PCRE only does that through GNU . . . thanks, jacob Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 12 20:03:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8D337B401 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 20:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3E743F75 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 20:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-17-187.txucom.net [209.34.17.187]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h4CNRXJJ016713 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 18:27:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:27:34 -0500 From: GB Clark To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030512182734.05f92a3e.gclarkii@vsservices.com> In-Reply-To: <20030507111626.GI11502@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030506101600.D4420@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <20030506175400.GA28671@rfc822.net> <20030507111626.GI11502@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.43 Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 03:03:59 -0000 On Wed, 7 May 2003 12:16:26 +0100 Paul Robinson wrote: > On f, Pete Ehlke wrote: > > > Please explain the slippery slope that lies between consensual sex among > > adults who are not married to one another and bigamy and polygamy, > > which are marriage to multiple partners. I really, really don't follow > > that one at all. > > I'm a liberal, so maybe not the best person to answer, but I do keep my eye > on the right-wing press, and their argument goes something like this: > > If you base your value of a society based on the morality it embodies, it is > important that the moral rules are clearly adhered to. Therefore, if you > believe that sex is appropriate in marriage and nowhere else (for moral > grounds, typically derived out of religious belief) and you see that society > accepts sex between non-married couples, within that society you must assume > that there is a morality breakdown taking place. If you have a society that > does not value it's own morality, then everything is possible, and those > moral barriers that were in place preventing bigamy and polygamy are being > erroded and ultimately, they are likely to be deemed acceptable. The > argument therefore is that if society accepts sex outside of marriage, then > the same society will ultimately accept multiple partners within marriage > due to the inevitability of moral decline. > > This is of course, complete rubbish. > > In other words, you can spot a right-winger whose opinion on how society > should order itself (or be ordered externally) by the fact they use phrases > like "it's a slippery slope" or, more commonly in the UK, "it's the thin end > of the wedge". If somebody nearby says that in your presence, back away > facing them, slowly towards the door and if need-be, uttering favourable > statements about Republicans and guns. If you are in the UK the right winger > won't understand references to republicans and will think you want to kill > the Queen, so instead talk about the Queen Mum and that "wonderful Baroness > Thatcher". Paul, That is a masterpiece! Being a pagan/libertarian/rational anarchist it always gets me people want to pass laws to keep ME from doing something, even if my behavior has ZERO effect on them. What's even worse, these are the same people who show up in the press having got caught with their fingers in the cookie jar. GB > -- > Paul Robinson -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 12 22:02:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7672237B401 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 22:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D85BF43FA3 for ; Mon, 12 May 2003 22:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19FRvV-0007bH-00; Mon, 12 May 2003 22:02:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:02:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: JacobRhoden In-Reply-To: <200305131053.20558.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good regular expression function for c/c++? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 05:02:25 -0000 On Tue, 13 May 2003, JacobRhoden wrote: > > Perhaps regex(3) or ports/devel/pcre ? > > oops, I forgot to mentioned, preferably bsd style liscenced.. (I dont want to > have to show people my code... it has some algorithms which become useless if > people can easily see them).. i will probably use pcre if i can find nothing > else. pcre's license should be fine. http://www.pcre.org/license.txt Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 13 00:56:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C4F37B401 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 00:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA7443F75 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 00:56:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4D7uq4P090957 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 09:56:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 09:56:51 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305130059.01754.olivas@digiflux.org> In-Reply-To: <200305130059.01754.olivas@digiflux.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305130956.52163.olivas@digiflux.org> Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.1 Released X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:56:56 -0000 On Tuesday 13 May 2003 12:59 am, Stacy Olivas wrote: > The system boots. I've got it using bsd-airtools for it's > wireless sniffer. > > I'm running into a problem with the wi network driver. The README > file tells you about it. > > I've decided to release this in hopes that someone will find it > useful and maybe even point to way to getting it working right. > > Let me know what you think. Send all comments, suggestion, flames, etc > to my address above. > I've seen quite a few people take a look at this, anyone have any comments? Later on today, I'll make a better looking page for it.. I kinda just threw something together last night (as you can tell). -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 13 01:34:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B6237B401; Tue, 13 May 2003 01:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D5343F3F; Tue, 13 May 2003 01:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4D8YS4P091372; Tue, 13 May 2003 10:34:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:34:28 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305131034.28746.olivas@digiflux.org> Subject: WarBSD 0.1 ISO available for download X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:34:32 -0000 (I may live to regret this:) I now have the WarBSD 0.1 ISO image available for download from my other site. The URL is: http://eurisko.ws/download/warbsd0.1.iso.tgz It's kinda big, since it includes everything from the build directory that is made when you create it... (~10 MB compressed. It's ~30 MB uncompressed). If anyone would be interested in mirroring this, please feel free to do so (and post back here where it is at). I hope this give more people the chance to look at it. Thanks. -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 13 03:48:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA5D37B401; Tue, 13 May 2003 03:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6187943FAF; Tue, 13 May 2003 03:48:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4DAmX4P092350; Tue, 13 May 2003 12:48:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: Ceri Davies Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:48:33 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305131034.28746.olivas@digiflux.org> <20030513103504.GC51988@submonkey.net> In-Reply-To: <20030513103504.GC51988@submonkey.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305131248.11443.olivas@digiflux.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.1 ISO available for download X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:48:37 -0000 On Tuesday 13 May 2003 12:35 pm, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 10:34:28AM +0200, Stacy Olivas wrote: > > (I may live to regret this:) > > > > I now have the WarBSD 0.1 ISO image available for download from my other > > site. > > > > The URL is: > > http://eurisko.ws/download/warbsd0.1.iso.tgz > > > > It's kinda big, since it includes everything from the build directory > > that is made when you create it... (~10 MB compressed. It's ~30 MB > > uncompressed). > > > > If anyone would be interested in mirroring this, please feel free to do > > so (and post back here where it is at). > > http://submonkey.net/files/warbsd0.1.iso.tgz > > I'd recommend you also distribute an MD5 sum for this at the very least. > > Ceri Done.. You can find the md5 here: http://eurisko.ws/download.warbsd0.1.iso.tgz.md5 Kind of a long name, but at least you know what it goes with. Thanks for the suggestion! -Satcy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 13 03:54:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED10F37B401; Tue, 13 May 2003 03:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC0A43F85; Tue, 13 May 2003 03:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4DAsW4P092419; Tue, 13 May 2003 12:54:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: , Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:54:32 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305131034.28746.olivas@digiflux.org> <20030513103504.GC51988@submonkey.net> <200305131248.11443.olivas@digiflux.org> In-Reply-To: <200305131248.11443.olivas@digiflux.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305131254.03155.olivas@digiflux.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.1 MD5 sum (oops!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:54:35 -0000 On Tuesday 13 May 2003 12:48 pm, Stacy Olivas wrote: > Done.. You can find the md5 here: > > http://eurisko.ws/download.warbsd0.1.iso.tgz.md5 > > Kind of a long name, but at least you know what it goes with. > > Thanks for the suggestion! > > -Satcy Umm, make that http://eurisko.ws/download/warbsd0.1.iso.tgz.md5 (Fat fingers strike again) Sorry!!!! -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 13 03:59:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E1237B401; Tue, 13 May 2003 03:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.terrabee.net (smtp.terrabee.net [193.138.102.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E27B943FCB; Tue, 13 May 2003 03:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@terrabee.net) Received: from home.terrabee.net (as19-5-7.bi.s.bonet.se [217.215.73.79]) by smtp.terrabee.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F81857268; Tue, 13 May 2003 12:59:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:59:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Christopher Arnold To: Stacy Olivas In-Reply-To: <200305131254.03155.olivas@digiflux.org> Message-ID: <20030513125847.Y41388@home.terrabee.net> References: <200305131034.28746.olivas@digiflux.org> <20030513103504.GC51988@submonkey.net> <200305131254.03155.olivas@digiflux.org> X-message-flag: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Outlook_isn=B4t_compliant_with_current_standards?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_please_install_another_mail_client!?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.1 MD5 sum (oops!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:59:50 -0000 On Tue, 13 May 2003, Stacy Olivas wrote: > http://eurisko.ws/download/warbsd0.1.iso.tgz.md5 > Thats nice, but what is warbsd? /Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 13 04:18:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853E637B401 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 04:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E4143FA3 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 04:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D173D28; Tue, 13 May 2003 07:18:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Christopher Arnold Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:18:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EC09C45.2762.60BCD4B1@localhost> Priority: normal References: <200305131254.03155.olivas@digiflux.org> In-reply-to: <20030513125847.Y41388@home.terrabee.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.1 MD5 sum (oops!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:18:31 -0000 On 13 May 2003 at 12:59, Christopher Arnold wrote: > On Tue, 13 May 2003, Stacy Olivas wrote: > > > http://eurisko.ws/download/warbsd0.1.iso.tgz.md5 > > > Thats nice, but what is warbsd? It was posted to the list yesterday... Check the archives. http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=7960+0+current/freebsd- chat -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 13 04:28:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FD737B401 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 04:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6C043F3F for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 04:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4DBSI4P092701 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 13:28:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:28:18 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305131254.03155.olivas@digiflux.org> <3EC09C45.2762.60BCD4B1@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3EC09C45.2762.60BCD4B1@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305131328.18937.olivas@digiflux.org> Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.1 MD5 sum (oops!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:28:22 -0000 On Tuesday 13 May 2003 1:18 pm, Dan Langille wrote: > On 13 May 2003 at 12:59, Christopher Arnold wrote: > > On Tue, 13 May 2003, Stacy Olivas wrote: > > > http://eurisko.ws/download/warbsd0.1.iso.tgz.md5 > > > > Thats nice, but what is warbsd? > > It was posted to the list yesterday... Check the archives. > > http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=7960+0+current/freebsd- > chat EEks!!! It's been slashdotted!! http://slashdot.jp/journal.pl?op=display&uid=5219 (slashdot japan, that is) -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 13 06:01:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B085F37B418 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 06:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681B543F93 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 06:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4DD134P093438 for ; Tue, 13 May 2003 15:01:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:01:02 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305131254.03155.olivas@digiflux.org> <3EC09C45.2762.60BCD4B1@localhost> <200305131328.18937.olivas@digiflux.org> In-Reply-To: <200305131328.18937.olivas@digiflux.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305131501.03003.olivas@digiflux.org> Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.1 MD5 sum (oops!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:01:07 -0000 Ok, I've just finished making a cleaner info page on my site for WarBSD. http://digiflux.org/warbsd/ (same link as before ) It's simple and gets to the point. Plus it's a bit easier to read and isn't as mucked up as before. Enjoy! -Stacy P.S. If I didn't say it before, thanks Ceri for the mirror! I put a link to it in the new page. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 14 04:01:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368B837B401 for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 04:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC3A43F75 for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 04:01:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4EB1f4P006872 for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 13:01:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:01:41 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305141301.41800.olivas@digiflux.org> Subject: WarBSD 0.1-p1 released X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:01:45 -0000 Just what you all have been waiting for. WarBSD0.1-p1. It's an update release that fixes a few things. Updates include: No more logins necessary (it was annoying) Started cleaning up /etc Added REVISION (for revision history), LICENSE.BSD-AIRTOOLS (for the bas-airtools license info) and the FreeBSD COPYRIGHT file See the file REVISION for a more complete rundown. Also, thanks to a suggection by M. Warner Losch on the -hackers list, I was able to get the wi network driver working (at least on my newer laptop). (Thanks Warner!). To make things easier for mirroring, I've moved all the files to the FTP server on eurisko.ws (ftp://ftp.eurisko.ws). You can still download the source tarball and view it's contents on my other site (http://digiflux.org/warbsd). Enjoy! Please send all comments, suggestion, flames, etc to olivas@digiflux.org. -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 14 21:38:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E15237B401; Wed, 14 May 2003 21:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mooseriver.com (adsl-68-73-118-170.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net [68.73.118.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2278743F93; Wed, 14 May 2003 21:38:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: by huron.mooseriver.com (Postfix, from userid 200) id 91CE4183; Wed, 14 May 2003 23:38:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:38:34 -0500 From: Josef Grosch To: Sergey Babkin Message-ID: <20030515043834.GB29370@mooseriver.com> References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:38:36 -0000 On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 10:28:35PM -0400, Sergey Babkin wrote: > Hi, > > If you haven't heard yet, SCO has sent a letter to about 1500 > companies claiming that Linux infringes on SCO's intellectual property. > I won't comment on whether this claim is true (there > are enough comments on slashdot). But for BSD it's a nice > opportunity to come out and say to the public that BSD out there, > does all that Linux does and more, and has no intellectual property > issues. So that if the management of the threatened companies > starts running from Linux, they run to BSD. I think we need to stay as far away from this self inflicted fiasco as possible. If SCO wants to turn into the next Unisys, fine! They will not be missed. We should continue to focus on making FreeBSD the server OS of choice. Oh, I'm moving this chat, which is where it really belongs. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.8 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 14 21:53:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA9137B401; Wed, 14 May 2003 21:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mooseriver.com (adsl-68-73-118-170.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net [68.73.118.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E3E43F75; Wed, 14 May 2003 21:53:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: by huron.mooseriver.com (Postfix, from userid 200) id 39395199; Wed, 14 May 2003 21:53:09 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:53:09 -0500 From: Josef Grosch To: Sergey Babkin Message-ID: <20030515025309.GA28371@mooseriver.com> References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:53:17 -0000 On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 10:28:35PM -0400, Sergey Babkin wrote: > Hi, > > If you haven't heard yet, SCO has sent a letter to about 1500 > companies claiming that Linux infringes on SCO's intellectual property. > I won't comment on whether this claim is true (there > are enough comments on slashdot). But for BSD it's a nice > opportunity to come out and say to the public that BSD out there, > does all that Linux does and more, and has no intellectual property > issues. So that if the management of the threatened companies > starts running from Linux, they run to BSD. I think we need to stay as far away from this self inflicted fiasco as possible. If SCO wants to turn into the next Unisys, fine! They will not be missed. We should continue to focus on making FreeBSD the server OS of choice. Oh, I'm moving this chat, which is where it really belongs. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.8 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 14 22:29:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A2A37B404 for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 22:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iquest2.iquest.net (iquest2.iquest.net [206.246.180.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B258F43FA3 for ; Wed, 14 May 2003 22:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sam@iquest.net) Received: (qmail 28830 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 05:28:58 -0000 Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (HELO mail-1.iquest.net) (206.246.180.23) by iquest2.iquest.net with SMTP; 15 May 2003 05:28:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 4931 invoked from network); 15 May 2003 05:28:58 -0000 Received: from dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net (HELO iquest.net) (206.246.160.137) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 15 May 2003 05:28:58 -0000 Sender: toor@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3EC32599.F8C211EE@iquest.net> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 00:28:57 -0500 From: John Dyson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> <20030515025309.GA28371@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Sergey Babkin cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 05:29:02 -0000 Josef Grosch wrote: > > On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 10:28:35PM -0400, Sergey Babkin wrote: > > Hi, > > > > If you haven't heard yet, SCO has sent a letter to about 1500 > > companies claiming that Linux infringes on SCO's intellectual property. > > I won't comment on whether this claim is true (there > > are enough comments on slashdot). But for BSD it's a nice > > opportunity to come out and say to the public that BSD out there, > > does all that Linux does and more, and has no intellectual property > > issues. So that if the management of the threatened companies > > starts running from Linux, they run to BSD. > > I think we need to stay as far away from this self inflicted fiasco as > possible. If SCO wants to turn into the next Unisys, fine! They will not be > missed. We should continue to focus on making FreeBSD the server OS of > choice. > > Oh, I'm moving this chat, which is where it really belongs. > I tend to agree that 'dancing' on someone elses misfortune or 'grave' isn't a good thing. BSD (esp FreeBSD) shouldn't be an OS that is based upon hatred of Microsoft, Linux, Commercial software or GPLed software. Good, clean competition based upon features and reliability (where features do include software features, installation ease, licesning freedom (but not as a 'crusade').) It is VERY EASY to fall into the trap of disliking the rhetoric, vehemence, or business practices of a company or organization so very strongly as to mistakenly adopt the negative attributes that are so very disliked. I have too often made the mistake of disliking 'negative' and 'crusader' attitudes so strongly as to adopt some of the attributes of the 'negative advocacy' based situations. It is best to avoid considering 'Microsoft', 'commercial software' or other such things as the 'enemy.' It is also best to avoid giving those who crusade so strongly against other people and companies 'a taste of their own medicine' in any way. I still wish that FreeBSD had stronger marketing, where it would be effective enough to avoid the seduction of overly strong advocacy. John From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 15 07:01:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8DB37B404 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 07:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1a-215.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.170.215]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1A743F3F for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 07:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h4FE1t0n014214 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 10:01:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EC39DD3.8060507@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:01:55 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: OT: AS/400 and RPG X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:01:57 -0000 Hello knowledgable community. Once again I am relegated to bugging the FreeBSD community about something that really isn't their concern because I'm unable find any other reliable source of information. I recently spoke with a potential new client who has a half-written application in RPG on an AS/400 that they would like me to complete for them. I'll add more history about the situation below, but for those who don't want to read a lot, here's my question: Is RPG still a growing, viable language? Is the AS/400 still an evolving platform? I've heard rumors that IBM is starting to abandon AS/400 for Linux, and when I searched for books on RPG, I found very few (although I found many that were out of print). Would I be doing this client a disfavor to continue development in RPG? Would I be wasting my time to learn it? I know nothing about the AS/400 or the RPG programming language. Basically, the client paid a programmer to screw them^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwrite this program 2 years ago because their research showed that there was a large market for it. The programmer wrote most of the app and then took the last bit of the money and skipped town. It's been sitting for two years with no money to complete the development. The original programmer wrote it as a terminal app. While I don't have any gripes with the terminal environment, this client is having trouble getting financial backers who see the program, becuase it looks like an old green-screen program. so they want me to replace the terminal interface with a Windows-ish GUI. How hard will that be in RPG? I suggested rewriting the app in some other language (such as perl/SQL) which they didn't disagree with, but they claim they can't get the money to do a rewrite now. Was the programmer an asshole for taking money to write a terminal app in 2000? I think so. Upshot is: they want to work out some sort of arrangement where I fix the program, and then I get a percentage of sales or something. Frankly, I've heard this all before and gotten burned on it before. (Folks think if they write a program and put up a website they'll sell 1000 copies) These folks seem to have a better understanding of how much money it takes to market a program, but I'm still not convinced that it'll be worth my while. I'm worried that the AS/400/RPG requirement will hurt sales markedly. Something written in perl/MySQL would run on BSD/Linux/ Mac/Windows and have a much larger market, right? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 15 07:41:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BD337B401 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 07:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A441943F3F for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 07:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19GJuq-000IU4-LL; Thu, 15 May 2003 15:41:04 +0100 Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:41:04 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030515144104.GQ50427@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EC39DD3.8060507@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EC39DD3.8060507@potentialtech.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: AS/400 and RPG X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:41:08 -0000 On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 10:01:55AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > Hello knowledgable community. This is -chat. Knowledge has no place here. :-) > Once again I am relegated to bugging the FreeBSD community about something > that really isn't their concern because I'm unable find any other reliable > source of information. If there is one thing that will get my ears pricked, it's the name "AS/400". > Is RPG still a growing, viable language? It's viable. I wouldn't really call it "growing" because the shift is now towards Java, but I don't know what you mean by that really. These days, on the newer kit *everything* is Java orientated and Websphere reportedly runs nicely on it. I considered it for a deployment here for a little while simply because it's a secure and stable platform. Not cost effective for what we were doing though. I learnt RPG once and developed code on live systems. It's on my CV. Nobody has ever asked me to write RPG code since. > Is the AS/400 still an evolving platform? Kind of. They don't call it AS/400 anymore because it's not AS/400 hardware. It's all PowerPC-based "AS/400e" kit which they renamed last year to "iSeries" kit. You need to clarify - do they have a proper old-school AS/400 or something more modern? Give me numbers from the front of the case, I can tell you what's inside it quite quickly, and what it's capable of. > I've heard rumors that IBM is starting to abandon AS/400 for Linux, Who from? I doubt it. Linux (and FreeBSD for that matter) doesn't have the big business credibility and scalability that IBM can offer with what they used to call their "minicomputer" market. You can run Linux on the newer kit if you want, but you're better off with OS/400 and then running Linux virtual machines to be honest... OS/400 and Linux are not comparable. It's like comparing an E12000 with a Fujitsu Vector processor machine... they're both good at what they do, but try and get each one to do the other's job, and things start to go the way of the pear... > books on RPG, I found very few (although I found many that were out of > print). Would I be doing this client a disfavor to continue development > in RPG? Would I be wasting my time to learn it? Difficult. If you want to contact me off list with more details about their setup and the application itself, I'd be better placed to advise. My gut instinct is that if they're running older kit, they should take the oppurtunity now to move to a more modern architecture, but if they're in the business of AS/400 software, they need to think about their strategy carefully. If it's top-end (room sized) early-90s kit, OS/400 V3 or thereabouts, you can give them a P4 that is as powerful and doesn't eat as much electric. As to whether that's the best option.... > see the program, becuase it looks like an old green-screen program. so > they want me to replace the terminal interface with a Windows-ish GUI. > How hard will that be in RPG? I suggested rewriting the app in some other > language (such as perl/SQL) which they didn't disagree with, but they claim > they can't get the money to do a rewrite now. One option is to take a look at http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/xml4rpg If it's an iSeries-spec box, this is straightforward with WebSphere. If it's an older AS/400, it's possible, but not... well... it's been done before, lots of sites do it, but I wouldn't really recommend it. If you're not sure, I'd recomend you either go and do a LOT of reading up at www.as400.ibm.com and every other AS/400 site you can find, or you pass on this contract and hand over to somebody with experience. What you're attempting isn't for beginners, IMHO. > Was the programmer an asshole for taking money to write a terminal app in > 2000? I think so. No. He was an asshole for not finishing the job and getting out of town. There is plenty of markets for terminal apps. > Upshot is: they want to work out some sort of arrangement where I fix > the program, and then I get a percentage of sales or something. Frankly, > I've heard this all before and gotten burned on it before. (Folks think > if they write a program and put up a website they'll sell 1000 copies) > These folks seem to have a better understanding of how much money it > takes to market a program, but I'm still not convinced that it'll be > worth my while. I'm worried that the AS/400/RPG requirement will hurt > sales markedly. Something written in perl/MySQL would run on BSD/Linux/ > Mac/Windows and have a much larger market, right? No. A business sees no value in software that runs in perl/MySQL so won't pay for it. The market they are going for doesn't think perl/MySQL software is "proper" software. In many ways, I agree. If I was in their shoes, I wouldn't want my stock inventory system for a multinational to be running in Perl and MySQL. Not yet, anyway. They will pay for something that runs on top of WebSphere on the AS/400 they have running the inventory systems on another coast, but not for some scripts running on a PC in the room next door. Get in touch off-list if you want - I'm sure others will have things to say here on -chat - but I'm prepared to give you a more balanced answer with some more answers as to what's going on over there. I'll give you as much help as you need to guide the customer through their decision, but it's not easy to answer with the info you've given so far. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 15 08:52:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED9237B401 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 08:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (mail.cruzio.com [63.249.95.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2978843F75 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 08:52:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brucem@cruzio.com) Received: from cruzio.com (dsl3-63-249-85-132.cruzio.com [63.249.85.132]) by mail.cruzio.com with ESMTP id h4FFvwGZ013380; Thu, 15 May 2003 08:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brucem@localhost) by cruzio.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id h4FFJIj00369; Thu, 15 May 2003 08:19:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brucem) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:19:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bruce R. Montague" Message-Id: <200305151519.h4FFJIj00369@cruzio.com> To: wmoran@potentialtech.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: AS/400 and RPG X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:52:14 -0000 About RPG, there do not seem to be a lot of current programming books, but I have noticed and thumbed-through some recent RPG titles at some of the silicon valley tech-bookstores (Digital Guru, I guess, and MicroCenter; Computer Literacy is no longer with us, alas). Some group at IBM seems to be keeping RPG up to date, it appears perhaps it is still considered a primary language on the AS/400, perhaps due to the large body of legacy apps. I guess they're calling it RPG/400? >From my casual perusal, it appears to have taken on ever more of a "database query language" flavor with respect to the integrated AS/400 database; it is sometimes easy when dealing with even trivial programs that are front-ending a database to find porting more difficult then expected due to functionality that has been offloaded to the database. I'm not sure what the "forms support" situation is, but it might also be something where there's a lot of functionality "under the hood" that might have to be re-implemented. Warning - it's been a quarter century since I used RPG! There is some good to be found in most any system or language, I do believe I once maintained an RPG "app" on a System/3 with only 8K of memory. - bruce From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 15 11:42:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9414837B404; Thu, 15 May 2003 11:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B7D43F93; Thu, 15 May 2003 11:42:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <20030515184200051000vmcee>; Thu, 15 May 2003 18:42:00 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4FIi2Kc022694; Thu, 15 May 2003 11:44:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h4FIhvkJ022693; Thu, 15 May 2003 11:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: dyson@iquest.net References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> <20030515025309.GA28371@mooseriver.com> <3EC32599.F8C211EE@iquest.net> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 15 May 2003 11:43:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EC32599.F8C211EE@iquest.net> Message-ID: Lines: 54 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:42:04 -0000 I've moved the CC from hackers@ to advocacy@. John Dyson writes: > I tend to agree that 'dancing' on someone elses misfortune or > 'grave' isn't a good thing. I consider it on a case-by-case basis, but Linux is "family", and we (sic -- there's no "will" here) need them in OUR misfortune. > BSD (esp FreeBSD) shouldn't be an OS > that is based upon hatred of Microsoft, Linux, Commercial software > or GPLed software. Those are the only reasons I support FreeBSD, and I think the BSDs would do well to keep digging at that corner of their niches too, especially in the embedded field (mostly NetBSD now?). > It is best to avoid considering 'Microsoft', 'commercial software' > or other such things as the 'enemy.' Maybe it's best to hide such considerations, but I very much consider M$ to have been the enemy of technological advancement over the last 20 years, which has cost the world untold time and dollars. The fact that they have done more for the bulk of computer users than other OS developers doesn't excuse M$, since we should require much more from those to whom much more has been given (eg, by the foolishness of IBM). (I actually blame past M$ users more than M$, but M$ is a better foe. :) (As I observe the 1984-ish down-side to the advancement of computing in the wrong hands, I'm caring less about the damage done by M$, but old emotions die hard.) It's a quite valid to use the failings of your competitors to win people away from them, if done right (and better than I'm capable of). I dare say most M$ hatred is among M$ users, and reminding them of it is apt to encourage some to try something else. The M$ lovers are a lost cause anyway; no sense keeping them happy. I recently read one saying their shop won't hire anyone who has Unix in their background. Sorry, but we do have (and are) enemies. It will take a lot more than a few slightly better features for server use and administration than Linux, to keep the BSDs abreast of Linux in the battle with M$. Both are on rolls that the BSDs aren't, sad to say. The BSD's few better features are not enough to keep the niche from shrinking away. But I suspect that the BSD's virtual offer to developers of one's own little niche to enjoy digging in, will keep them around a long while, but shrinking as Linux gets better faster, unless it becomes too hard to keep up at all (in either kernel features or application porting). Then, the only part of the niche will be for embedded software users who don't want to derive from copylefted software (if really free software is still around). Keeping BSD-like licensing an important aspect of the BSD niche should be an important part of the BSD survival mechanism. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 15 18:21:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3379437B401 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 18:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.server.rpi.edu (smtp1.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB9143F3F for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 18:21:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp1.server.rpi.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4G1LWCS009008; Thu, 15 May 2003 21:21:33 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030515025309.GA28371@mooseriver.com> References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> <20030515025309.GA28371@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:21:31 -0400 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Sergey Babkin From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 01:21:36 -0000 At 9:53 PM -0500 5/14/03, Josef Grosch wrote: >On Wed, May 14, 2003, Sergey Babkin wrote: > > Hi, >> >> If you haven't heard yet, SCO has sent a letter to about 1500 > > companies claiming that Linux infringes on SCO's intellectual > > property. I won't comment on whether this claim is true (there > > are enough comments on slashdot). But for BSD it's... > > >I think we need to stay as far away from this self inflicted >fiasco as possible. I agree completely. For one, you can't "Not comment on whether the charges are true", and then turn around and try to advertise your product based on the very same charges. It is particularly bad to do when talking about such a desperate brain-dead set of charges as these are. It is even worse when our own project went through the frustration and irritation of similar lawsuits, and now we are going to clap gleefully that another stupid lawsuit is trying to undermine a different open-source project? If we can't sell freebsd based on freebsd's code and freebsd's features, then we deserve to have absolutely no users. While FreeBSD could use more of a marketing department, we should never encourage a "marketing-through-FUD department". I think we need to avoid doing *anything* which could even *remotely* suggest that we are trying to cash in on this lawsuit in any way. [speaking only for me, IMHO, etc, etc...] -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 15 23:33:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36BEB37B401 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 23:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF5E43F75 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 23:33:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0iq.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.2.90] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19GYmn-0004lr-00; Thu, 15 May 2003 23:33:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3EC485F8.2BDF90B8@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 23:32:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d20081e60c0215f7e28381b886506acb3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Sergey Babkin Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:33:54 -0000 Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I agree completely. For one, you can't "Not comment on whether > the charges are true", and then turn around and try to advertise > your product based on the very same charges. This, at least, is incorrect, since FreeBSD is free from taint, due to the USL/UCB lawsuit settlement of 1994. Linux has no such settlement document. If you can buy a copy of the SCO Linux product before it's no longer available, do it: the legal theory that made them withdraw the offer for sale of the product was that their sale of it under the GPL granted royalty free license to use their IP contained therein with no royalty, in perpetuity. The same reason IBM refused to let us ship the InterJet II with Squid on it, after they bought Whistle. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 15 23:41:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BF937B404 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 23:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5C843FA3 for ; Thu, 15 May 2003 23:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030516064154.MOUK311.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Fri, 16 May 2003 07:41:54 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030516073557.01e053b8@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 07:41:43 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Garance A Drosihn From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <3EC485F8.2BDF90B8@mindspring.com> References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:42:00 -0000 At 23:32 15/05/2003 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >If you can buy a copy of the SCO Linux product before it's >no longer available, do it: the legal theory that made them >withdraw the offer for sale of the product was that their >sale of it under the GPL granted royalty free license to >use their IP contained therein with no royalty, in perpetuity. I'm not aware of any legal theory which makes it possible to grant someone a license by mistake. Providing that someone from SCO stands up in court and says "as soon as we realized that our proprietary code had been inserted into the linux project we were distributing, we stopped distributing it", I think any reasonable court would rule that their code had not been licensed under the GPL. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 16 03:54:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A7B37B401 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 03:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA8643F85 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 03:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19Gcqf-000IwD-Qi; Fri, 16 May 2003 11:54:01 +0100 Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:54:01 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Bruce R. Montague" Message-ID: <20030516105401.GW50427@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <200305151519.h4FFJIj00369@cruzio.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305151519.h4FFJIj00369@cruzio.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: wmoran@potentialtech.com Subject: Re: OT: AS/400 and RPG X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:54:02 -0000 On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 08:19:18AM -0700, Bruce R. Montague wrote: > appears perhaps it is still considered a primary > language on the AS/400, perhaps due to the large > body of legacy apps. I guess they're calling it > RPG/400? Yeah, the VisualAge and RPG/400 stuff that's knocking around is pretty good, but like I said before, Java seems to be language de jour over at AS/400^W"iSeries" headquarters and we were recently offered an iSeries/WebSphere combo which we declined. > that has been offloaded to the database. I'm not > sure what the "forms support" situation is, but > it might also be something where there's a lot > of functionality "under the hood" that might have > to be re-implemented. Yeah, RPG/400 these days will do a lot of hand-holding. The question here is whether it's appropriate for him to support the app that is 90% finished, or take on the re-development in something more "straight forward". > Warning - it's been a quarter century since I used > RPG! There is some good to be found in most any > system or language, I do believe I once maintained > an RPG "app" on a System/3 with only 8K of memory. Cool. I got into it because my dad was doing Synon and RPG/400 over in the US when I was a teenager (early-1990s) and I just kind of fell in love with the machine. For a long time I thought when I graduated I would never have to deal with anything else for a portion of my career other than AS/400. It wasn't to be, but that's because somebody showed me Unix in the meantime which is dirtier and nastier, but also even more arcane and wizard-like. :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 16 05:53:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73C737B401 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 05:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.server.rpi.edu (smtp3.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026BF43F85 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 05:53:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp3.server.rpi.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4GCrCiJ023700; Fri, 16 May 2003 08:53:12 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3EC485F8.2BDF90B8@mindspring.com> References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> <20030515025309.GA28371@mooseriver.com> <3EC485F8.2BDF90B8@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 08:53:11 -0400 To: Terry Lambert From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:53:19 -0000 At 11:32 PM -0700 5/15/03, Terry Lambert wrote: >Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > I agree completely. For one, you can't "Not comment > > on whether the charges are true", and then turn around > > and try to advertise your product based on the very > > same charges. > >This, at least, is incorrect, since FreeBSD is free from >taint, due to the USL/UCB lawsuit settlement of 1994. > >Linux has no such settlement document. Well, obviously that is true, but that isn't what I meant. What I meant is you can not sit back and say "Hey, I am making no comment on whether the charges against linux are right, but just co-incidentally this morning I decided to get up and tell the world that FreeBSD does not have the same legal issues that linux is accused of". The fact that "you" (the generic you) are starting to advertise that *you* are innocent is most certainly a direct result and thus an implied comment on the guilt of Linux. It's like saying "I won't comment on whether the incumbent mayor stole the car he's driving, but just this morning I happened to decide that I should wave around the bill-of-sale for my own car and thus you should vote for me". It is a campaign of marketing-through-FUD. It could be 100% accurate that you do own your car, but the only reason you're waving around that bill-of-sale is because of the charges against the other guy. Let's say the court system works remarkably fast, and next Monday the courts throw out SCO's case as being "Totally Without Merit". Then how stupid would we look for saying "Hey, over here, we're the innocent guys!". What I'm saying is that I would have been completely comfortable with the suggested marketing campaign if the idea popped up a year ago, but it is not appropriate to *start* such a campaign right now, and thus try to cash in on this lawsuit against another open-source project. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 16 10:41:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44AE137B401 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 10:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-87.apple.com [17.250.248.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B51843F93 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 10:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4GHfYHS000182 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 10:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4GHQlNN008635; Fri, 16 May 2003 10:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:27:08 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Garance A Drosihn From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <9ED84436-87C3-11D7-B713-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:41:39 -0000 On Friday, May 16, 2003, at 08:53 AM, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 11:32 PM -0700 5/15/03, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Garance A Drosihn wrote: >> > I agree completely. For one, you can't "Not comment >> > on whether the charges are true", and then turn around >> > and try to advertise your product based on the very >> > same charges. >> >> This, at least, is incorrect, since FreeBSD is free from >> taint, due to the USL/UCB lawsuit settlement of 1994. >> >> Linux has no such settlement document. > > Well, obviously that is true, but that isn't what I meant. > > What I meant is you can not sit back and say "Hey, I am > making no comment on whether the charges against linux are > right, but just co-incidentally this morning I decided to > get up and tell the world that FreeBSD does not have the > same legal issues that linux is accused of". > > The fact that "you" (the generic you) are starting to > advertise that *you* are innocent is most certainly a > direct result and thus an implied comment on the guilt of > Linux. It's like saying "I won't comment on whether the > incumbent mayor stole the car he's driving, but just this > morning I happened to decide that I should wave around the > bill-of-sale for my own car and thus you should vote for me". > It is a campaign of marketing-through-FUD. > That is not a good analogy. In this case there is obvious proof that FreeBSD does not suffer from this potential issue. Pointing this out could be just a matter of saying here this is the current climate. > It could be 100% accurate that you do own your car, but the > only reason you're waving around that bill-of-sale is because > of the charges against the other guy. > > Let's say the court system works remarkably fast, and next > Monday the courts throw out SCO's case as being "Totally > Without Merit". Then how stupid would we look for saying > "Hey, over here, we're the innocent guys!". > Not stupid at all since what was stated was true. FreeBSD was not affected. Actually it is important to point this out as FreeBSD is often lumped into linux. > What I'm saying is that I would have been completely > comfortable with the suggested marketing campaign if the > idea popped up a year ago, but it is not appropriate to > *start* such a campaign right now, and thus try to cash > in on this lawsuit against another open-source project. > > -- One could argue there never is a truly appropriate time. It is relevant as an issue right now, how is that not appropriate? --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 16 13:43:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C489737B401 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 13:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.server.rpi.edu (smtp1.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E955B43F3F for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp1.server.rpi.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4GKh1CS001454; Fri, 16 May 2003 16:43:01 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9ED84436-87C3-11D7-B713-000393A335A2@mac.com> References: <9ED84436-87C3-11D7-B713-000393A335A2@mac.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:43:00 -0400 To: Larry Sica From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.28 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:43:04 -0000 At 1:27 PM -0400 5/16/03, Larry Sica wrote: >On Friday, May 16, 2003, Garance A Drosihn wrote: >>The fact that "you" (the generic you) are starting to >>advertise that *you* are innocent is most certainly a >>direct result and thus an implied comment on the guilt of >>Linux. It's like saying "I won't comment on whether the >>incumbent mayor stole the car he's driving, but just this >>morning I happened to decide that I should wave around the >>bill-of-sale for my own car and thus you should vote for me". >>It is a campaign of marketing-through-FUD. >> > >That is not a good analogy. In this case there is obvious >proof that FreeBSD does not suffer from this potential issue. >Pointing this out could be just a matter of saying here this >is the current climate. IMO opinion it is a perfectly accurate analogy. You never spread FUD about *your* product, you spread it about the *other* product. In this case we would be spreading the FUD that "Hey, linux might be guilty, and SCO might sue you for running it! And Look! You won't get sued if you run FreeBSD!". That's my opinion. At this point I think I've stated it well enough. I do not intend to debate it further. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 16 21:47:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0841C37B401 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 21:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5842543F75 for ; Fri, 16 May 2003 21:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfjpt.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.207.61] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19GtbB-0002e8-00; Fri, 16 May 2003 21:47:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3EC5BE83.88B2C630@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 21:45:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Percival References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> <5.0.2.1.1.20030516073557.01e053b8@popserver.sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47f2736a2d444460c6a8171ef4698498d93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 04:47:19 -0000 Colin Percival wrote: > At 23:32 15/05/2003 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > >If you can buy a copy of the SCO Linux product before it's > >no longer available, do it: the legal theory that made them > >withdraw the offer for sale of the product was that their > >sale of it under the GPL granted royalty free license to > >use their IP contained therein with no royalty, in perpetuity. > > I'm not aware of any legal theory which makes it possible to grant > someone a license by mistake. Who said anything about "by mistake"? If you release under a particular license, it's on purpose. > Providing that someone from SCO stands up in > court and says "as soon as we realized that our proprietary code had been > inserted into the linux project we were distributing, we stopped > distributing it", I think any reasonable court would rule that their code > had not been licensed under the GPL. Works only if they terminate the already outstanding licenses: Ex Post Facto. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 17 14:00:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AFA37B401 for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 14:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0B043FAF for ; Sat, 17 May 2003 14:00:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <2003051721004405200ph764e>; Sat, 17 May 2003 21:00:44 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4HL2RKc061995; Sat, 17 May 2003 14:02:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h4HL2ELb061992; Sat, 17 May 2003 14:02:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert References: <3EC2FB53.67559AB6@bellatlantic.net> <5.0.2.1.1.20030516073557.01e053b8@popserver.sfu.ca> <3EC5BE83.88B2C630@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 May 2003 14:02:14 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EC5BE83.88B2C630@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: a public relations opportunity for BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 21:00:46 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > Who said anything about "by mistake"? If you release under > a particular license, it's on purpose. Unless it's by mistake. :) > Works only if they terminate the already outstanding licenses: > Ex Post Facto. Or if the court terminates a license term which was mistakenly agreed to by the contracting parties. I think they call it "equity". I'm not positive, but I seem to recall courts doing things like that when it finds that some kinds/levels of "uninjustice" is being done which is not addressed by normal law.