From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 25 15:04:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C2916A4CE for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7703E43D3F for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:04:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 384AD5312; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:04:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 33EDF530F; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:04:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id C510133C71; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:04:26 +0200 (CEST) To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040424131418.GA1318@gothmog.gr> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:04:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040424131418.GA1318@gothmog.gr> (Giorgos Keramidas's message of "Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:14:18 +0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: Chris Pressey cc: Dan MacMillan cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:04:36 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas writes: > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent word in English > -- and I mean exact equivalent, including all the possible meanings and > nuances that this word can express in the Greek language -- should be > enough as an example, right? This isn't an "expression", it is a single > word, but there's no reason why a single word cannot be considered an > expression either :) There are plenty of those in English (sometimes shared with other Germanic languages). For instance, there is no direct equivalent for "home" in most Romance languages. Another example is "experience", in the sense used in tourist brochures or on show posters. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 25 21:28:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B445316A4D7 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horowitz.surfnet.nl (horowitz.surfnet.nl [194.171.167.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F95E43D48 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pks-admin@horowitz.surfnet.nl) Received: (from pks@localhost) by horowitz.surfnet.nl (8.12.2/8.12.2) id i3Q4S4Cw006265; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 06:28:04 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 06:28:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200404260428.i3Q4S4Cw006265@horowitz.surfnet.nl> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Server Administrator In-Reply-To: <200404260416.i3Q4GiAj028718@horowitz.surfnet.nl> Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---PKSD-----" Subject: Your command, Re: Hi, was invalid X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 04:28:08 -0000 -----PKSD----- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Key server software written by Marc Horowitz For questions or comments regarding this key server site, contact Server Administrator Current version: 0.9.5 NOTE! This service is provided to facilitate public-key cryptography for demonstration and educational purposes. It is the responsibility of users of public-key cryptography to ensure that their activities conform to legal requirements. -----PKSD----- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline [ Croatian: Za hrvatsku verziju ovoga teksta posaljite poruku koja ce u Subject imati "HELP HR" na adresu pgp-public-keys@keys.nl.pgp.net Danish: For at faa en dansk version af denne text skal du sende en e-mail med en subject-tekst: "HELP DK" til pgp-public-keys@keys.dk.pgp.net eller slaa op paa URL http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/email-help-dk.html English: For an english version of this message, send an e-mail with a subject line of "HELP" to pgp-public-keys@keys.pgp.net, or access the URL http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/email-help-en.html Finnish: Saadaksesi taman tekstin suomeksi, laheta osoitteeseen pgp-public-keys@keys.nl.pgp.net tyhja viesti, jonka Subject-kentta on "HELP FI". French: Pour une version française de çe texte, envoyez un message au sujet de "HELP FR" à pgp-public-keys@keys.ch.pgp.net German: Für eine deutschsprachige Fassung dieses Textes senden Sie eine Mail mit dem Subject "HELP DE" an die folgende Adresse pgp-public-keys@keys.de.pgp.net oder URL: http://www.pgp.net/pgp/email-help-de.html Norwegian: For aa faa dette dokumentet paa norsk, send "HELP NO" til pgp-public-keys@keys.nl.pgp.net Spanish: Para obtener una versión en castellano de este texto, envíe un mail a pgp-public-keys@keys.nl.pgp.net con el "Subject" HELP ES ] PGP Public Email Keyservers --------------------------- There are PGP public email key servers which allow one to exchange public keys running using the Internet and UUCP mail systems. Those capable of accessing the WWW might prefer to use the WWW interface available via http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/www-key.html and managers of sites which may want to make frequent lookups may care to copy the full keyring from the FTP server at ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp/keys/ This service exists only to help transfer keys between PGP users. It does NOT attempt to guarantee that a key is a valid key; use the signatures on a key for that kind of security. Each keyserver processes requests in the form of mail messages. The commands for the server are entered on the Subject: line. ---------------------------------------------- ======== ----- Note that they should NOT be included in the body of the message. --------------------- === --------------------------------------- To: pgp-public-keys@keys.pgp.net From: johndoe@some.site.edu Subject: help Sending your key to ONE server is enough. After it processes your key, it will forward your add request to other servers automagically. For example, to add your key to the keyserver, or to update your key if it is already there, send a message similar to the following to any server: To: pgp-public-keys@keys.pgp.net From: johndoe@some.site.edu Subject: add -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- COMPROMISED KEYS: Create a Key Revocation Certificate (read the PGP docs on how to do that) and mail your key to the server once again, with the ADD command. Valid commands are: Command Result ---------------------- ------------------------------------------------- HELP Returns this message HELP language Localized help text (DE, EN, ES, FI, FR, HR, NO) ADD Add PGP public key from the body of your message INDEX userid List all PGP keys containing the words in userid VERBOSE INDEX userid Verbose list of all keys containing userid GET userid Get the key(s) matching userid LAST days Get the keys updated in the last `days' days ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LIMITATIONS: Most keyservers have a limit on the number of keys they return in queries, in order not to swamp you with too many keys in case you made a typo (the full database at the keyservers exceeds 2GB). If you *REALLY* need the whole index file or key ring, *PLEASE* ftp it from a key server such as `ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp/keys/' or one of the national servers. NOTE: PGP is extremely slow when operating on large keyrings. Adding the full ring of the keyserver to your own ring will take several *MONTHS* to complete. ADDRESSES TO USE: Users should normally use the email address `pgp-public-keys@keys.pgp.net' or your national servers using one of: pgp-public-keys@keys.ch.pgp.net pgp-public-keys@keys.de.pgp.net pgp-public-keys@keys.es.pgp.net pgp-public-keys@keys.nl.pgp.net pgp-public-keys@keys.uk.pgp.net pgp-public-keys@keys.us.pgp.net for the email interface, `ftp://ftp.pgp.net/pub/pgp/' for FTP, and `http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/' for WWW access. Users are recommended to use the "*.pgp.net" addresses above as these are stable and reliable. -----PKSD------- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 25 22:00:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590A616A4CE for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes14-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound03.telus.net [199.185.220.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E3543D2D for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes14-hme0.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040426050015.SOKR12913.priv-edtnes14-hme0.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:00:15 -0600 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 21:58:37 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040424131418.GA1318@gothmog.gr> References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040424131418.GA1318@gothmog.gr> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 05:00:16 -0000 On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:14:18 +0300 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2004-04-21 11:05, Chris Pressey wrote: > >On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:28:48 -0600 > >Dan MacMillan wrote: > >>>>> From: Daniela > >>>>> Sent: April 17, 2004 04:50 > >>>>> > >>>>> OO languages can be optimized differently than non-OO languages, > >>>>> and when you translate one language into another, this advantage > >>>>> gets lost. > >>>> > >>>> I challenge you to defend this claim with a specific example. > >>> > >>> I don't really have a specific example, but it's quite the same > >with>> human languages. The more often a text is translated, the more > >>> useless information > >>> gets added to it. And if the original text is beautifully written, > >>> it is often total crap when you translate it back. > >> > >> These are not analagous. The reason things get lost in the > >> translation of human language is that it is not possible to > >represent> every expression in one human language with complete > >precision in> another. > > > > I challenge you to defend this (Sapir-Worfian) claim with a specific > > example. :) > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent word in > English-- and I mean exact equivalent, including all the possible > meanings and nuances that this word can express in the Greek language > -- should be enough as an example, right? Unfortunately, no, it's not enough. A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent English word, phrase, sentence, paragraph, essay, book, or library would be enough though. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 26 02:43:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFBE116A4CE for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 02:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A1043D67 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 02:43:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-0cdfelv.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.186.191] helo=bluerondo) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BI2e2-0000IY-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 02:43:22 -0700 Received: (qmail 7619 invoked by uid 1002); 26 Apr 2004 09:43:35 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 05:43:35 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Chris Pressey Message-ID: <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> X-Operating-System: DragonFly 1.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:43:22 -0000 Chris Pressey wrote: > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent word in > > English-- and I mean exact equivalent, including all the possible > > meanings and nuances that this word can express in the Greek language > > -- should be enough as an example, right? > > Unfortunately, no, it's not enough. > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent English word, > phrase, sentence, paragraph, essay, book, or library would be enough > though. Which has very little relevance to programming languages. Anything that can be done in one Turing-complete language can be done in another Turing-complete language. The trade-off is in development time ("expressiveness") and running time. For a long time I've thought that the tradeoff is between ugly, laborious and fast (C and, in the scientific community, Fortran - ugh) and elegant, expressive and slow (Python etc). But now I'm beginning to play with functional languages like lisp and ML. Some implementations of these (cmucl, ocaml) are quite competitive with C in speed (ocaml can even be faster in some circumstances), while being orders of magnitude simpler and more elegant, and allowing far fewer foot-shooting possibilities. No more hideous hacks to write a function that can deal with data of any type. No more memory leaks, no more segfaults, no more buffer overflows. And if written in purely functional style, no "side-effect" bugs. For example, these languages recognise a particular form of recursion ("tail recursion") that can be optimised into a regular iteration, so you get the efficiency of a goto with the programming elegance of recursion. And you can do things in them in a few lines that seem unthinkable in C: eg, in ocaml, you can define a discrete derivative of an unspecified function (a "function of a function") with let dx = 1e-10;; let deriv f = (fun x -> (f (x +. dx) -. f x) /. dx);; or, for better accuracy, let deriv f = (fun x -> (f(x +. (dx/.2.0)) -. f(x -. (dx/.2.0))) /. dx);; Then you can get a pretty good approximation of, say, sin' (=cos): let sin' = deriv sin ;; sin' 0.7854 ;; - : float = 0.707105485275860701 cos 0.7854 ;; - : float = 0.707105482511236283 As for Lisp, its macros seem to have no equivalent in any other language I can think of. And a lisp program can basically rewrite itself (or generate its own functions and execute them), which would be a hideous hack at best in any other language. So now I'm wondering: why aren't these languages more popular? Back in the 1970s the hardware didn't allow for efficient compilers, so I can understand that C looked attractive, but that's no longer true. And these languages are hardly newcomers: ML is nearly as old as C, while Lisp dates to the 1950s. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 26 10:30:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D7A16A4DA for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA14D43D7B for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040426173021.LRCQ25827.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:30:21 -0600 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:28:44 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040426102844.11faaf90.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 17:30:25 -0000 On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 05:43:35 -0400 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Chris Pressey wrote: > > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent word in > > > English-- and I mean exact equivalent, including all the possible > > > meanings and nuances that this word can express in the Greek > > > language-- should be enough as an example, right? > > > > Unfortunately, no, it's not enough. > > > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent English > > word, phrase, sentence, paragraph, essay, book, or library would be > > enough though. > > Which has very little relevance to programming languages. I disagree; I think the parallel to optimization in different languages is quite strong. There may be a Greek word whose meaning can only be expressed in English as a lengthy paragraph. Likewise, what takes a couple of "sentences" of Perl code may take an entire "essay" of C. > [on functional languages] > So now I'm wondering: why aren't these languages more popular? Well, how often are they taught in schools? -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 26 11:20:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C6316A4CE for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A290143D49 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i3QIKRQi029224; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:20:27 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3QIKRO8029222; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:20:27 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:20:26 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Chris Pressey Message-ID: <20040426182026.GA29196@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Chris Pressey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426102844.11faaf90.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040426102844.11faaf90.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:20:35 -0000 Chris Pressey said on Apr 26, 2004 at 10:28:44: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Chris Pressey wrote: > > > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent word in > > > > English-- and I mean exact equivalent, including all the possible > > > > meanings and nuances that this word can express in the Greek > > > > language-- should be enough as an example, right? > > > > > > Unfortunately, no, it's not enough. > > > > > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent English > > > word, phrase, sentence, paragraph, essay, book, or library would be > > > enough though. > > > > Which has very little relevance to programming languages. > > I disagree; I think the parallel to optimization in different languages > is quite strong. The question was whether you can do something in one language that you can't in another. If one interprets that your way (wanting an example of a word in Greek that can't be expressed by an entire library in English), the answer is clearly no. If one talks about conciseness and optimisation, obviously that's a different question. > > [on functional languages] > > So now I'm wondering: why aren't these languages more popular? > > Well, how often are they taught in schools? I first heard of ML from a computer science student in the UK. Apparently these things were standard parts of their education. In fact, ocaml is developed at INRIA in France, and the original ML was developed at Edinburgh university. And lisp was popular until the 1980s, and has its base even today, though most people only encounter it in emacs (which is not "common lisp" and doesn't do a lot of the neat things a full-blown lisp does). The impression I get is not that they're not taught in schools, but that they're viewed as too "academic" and not "real-world" enough. I guess I can't judge since I'm academic too... Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 26 13:04:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C37D16A4CF for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED26643D5F for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040426200450.TNST12438.priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:04:50 -0600 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:03:14 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-Id: <20040426130314.516a54ba.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040426182026.GA29196@online.fr> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426102844.11faaf90.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426182026.GA29196@online.fr> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 20:04:51 -0000 On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:20:26 -0400 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Chris Pressey said on Apr 26, 2004 at 10:28:44: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Chris Pressey wrote: > > > > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent word > > > > > in English-- and I mean exact equivalent, including all the > > > > > possible meanings and nuances that this word can express in > > > > > the Greek language-- should be enough as an example, right? > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, no, it's not enough. > > > > > > > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent English > > > > word, phrase, sentence, paragraph, essay, book, or library would > > > > be enough though. > > > > > > Which has very little relevance to programming languages. > > > > I disagree; I think the parallel to optimization in different > > languages is quite strong. > > The question was whether you can do something in one language that you > can't in another. If one interprets that your way (wanting an example > of a word in Greek that can't be expressed by an entire library in > English), the answer is clearly no. If one talks about conciseness > and optimisation, obviously that's a different question. But optimization *was* the original topic which spawned the question. My "challenge" was, in part, trying to illustrate that things do not get lost in translation because languages are *non-equivalent* (Danny's / Sapir & Whorf's original claim) but because they *optimize differently*. This certainly seems (to me) to apply to human and programming languages alike. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 27 03:24:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321A816A4CE for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 03:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F33943D64 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 03:24:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 31877 invoked by uid 555); 27 Apr 2004 14:24:31 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.186) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083061470-31854 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Tue, 27 Apr 14:24:30 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1723F248; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:58:42 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:58:42 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:24:35 -0000 --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 05:43:35AM -0400, Rahul Siddharthan probably wrote: > Chris Pressey wrote: > >=20 > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent English word, > > phrase, sentence, paragraph, essay, book, or library would be enough > > though. >=20 > Which has very little relevance to programming languages. Anything > that can be done in one Turing-complete language can be done in > another Turing-complete language. The trade-off is in development > time ("expressiveness") and running time. >=20 // Turing strikes again:) // Ok. Write this (to be compiled as a shared object) in portable C: #include class A { public: A(); }; A::A() { cout<<"This shared library was loaded!"< Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22C516A4CE for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 05:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C7A143D53 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 05:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 2B3C5530C; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:41:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 397655309; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:41:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D3C6133C71; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:41:33 +0200 (CEST) To: Sergey Zaharchenko References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:41:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> (Sergey Zaharchenko's message of "Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:58:42 +0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:41:43 -0000 Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > // Turing strikes again:) > // Ok. Write this (to be compiled as a shared object) in portable C: > > #include > > class A > { > public: > A(); > }; > > A::A() > { > cout<<"This shared library was loaded!"< } > > static A a; Sure: void a(void) { cout =3D endl =3D 0; } the error message won't be *exactly* the same, but pretty close (different line numbers, and "In function `a'" instead of "In constructor `A::A()'") DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 27 08:28:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A8E16A4CE for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B08943D62 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:28:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-0cdfelv.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.186.191] helo=bluerondo) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BIUVM-0007A9-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:28:16 -0700 Received: (qmail 4072 invoked by uid 1002); 27 Apr 2004 15:28:19 -0000 Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:28:19 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Sergey Zaharchenko Message-ID: <20040427152819.GA4047@online.fr> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> X-Operating-System: DragonFly 1.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:28:20 -0000 Sergey Zaharchenko said on Apr 26, 2004 at 15:58:42: > > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent English word, > > > phrase, sentence, paragraph, essay, book, or library would be enough > > > though. > > > > Which has very little relevance to programming languages. Anything > > that can be done in one Turing-complete language can be done in > > another Turing-complete language. The trade-off is in development > > time ("expressiveness") and running time. > > > > // Turing strikes again:) > // Ok. Write this (to be compiled as a shared object) in portable C: By "anything" above I meant "taking certain input data and performing certain operations to yield a certain output". As DES points out, your program doesn't actually do anything :) Some early C++ compilers translated to C before compiling, I believe. As did f2c, a fortran-to-C translator widely used before g77. And I know of at least one lisp-like system that translates to C (lush) -- though it's not common lisp and is missing many essential lisp features like macros. But many common Lisp systems (and compilers for many other languages) are written in C, so you can argue that the combined system of compiler+non-C program is a C program that does the same thing (somewhat like Chris's allowing a library in English to represent a single word in Greek). Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 27 09:07:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8797A16A4CE for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E33D943D4C for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 14232 invoked by uid 555); 27 Apr 2004 20:07:46 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.141) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083082065-14184 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Tue, 27 Apr 20:07:45 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 24A01218; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:07:37 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:07:37 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23QrHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wac7ysb48OaltWcw" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 16:07:49 -0000 --wac7ysb48OaltWcw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 02:41:33PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=D0=ACrgrav probably wrote: > Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > > // Turing strikes again:) > > // Ok. Write this (to be compiled as a shared object) in portable C: > > > > #include > > > > class A > > { > > public: > > A(); > > }; > > > > A::A() > > { > > cout<<"This shared library was loaded!"< > } > > > > static A a; >=20 > Sure: >=20 > void a(void) > { > cout =3D endl =3D 0; > } >=20 > the error message won't be *exactly* the same, but pretty close > (different line numbers, and "In function `a'" instead of "In > constructor `A::A()'") >=20 Script started on Tue Apr 27 20:01:30 2004 df@Shark:~> cat >cc.cc #include class A { public: A(); }; A::A() { cout<<"This shared library was loaded!"< g++ cc.cc /usr/lib/crt1.o: In function `_start': /usr/lib/crt1.o(.text+0x82): undefined reference to `main' df@Shark:~> cat >c.c void a(void) { cout =3D endl =3D 0; } df@Shark:~> c89 c.c c.c: In function `a': c.c:3: `cout' undeclared (first use in this function) c.c:3: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once c.c:3: for each function it appears in.) c.c:3: `endl' undeclared (first use in this function) df@Shark:~> df@Shark:~> exit exit Script done on Tue Apr 27 20:03:34 2004 Sorry? I mean, you've got the object file, and can compile a shared library which will advertize itself, with the former, whereas the latter, as you've pointed out, doesn't compile. A quick hint: Turing has nothing to do with all this... --=20 DoubleF Bare feet magnetize sharp metal objects so they point upward from the floor -- especially in the dark. --wac7ysb48OaltWcw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAjoVIwo7hT/9lVdwRAqNHAJ0SF7hC4f1dzYw9snUuGHxwSi6sawCfX/os Kt0bQtay0j+yfEPYUSyIAPc= =QLPt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wac7ysb48OaltWcw-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 27 13:15:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A747116A4CE for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB16443D31 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 4C29C5312; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:15:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 427185309; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:15:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id DF4EB33C71; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:15:48 +0200 (CEST) To: Sergey Zaharchenko References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:15:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> (Sergey Zaharchenko's message of "Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:07:37 +0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:15:58 -0000 Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > Sorry? I mean, you've got the object file, and can compile a shared > library which will advertize itself, with the former, whereas the > latter, as you've pointed out, doesn't compile. neither does the former, with a proper compiler: % g++ -o /dev/null -c a.cc a.cc: In constructor `A::A()': a.cc:11: error: `cout' undeclared (first use this function) a.cc:11: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in.) a.cc:11: error: `endl' undeclared (first use this function) you're missing "using namespace std;" at the top. > A quick hint: Turing has nothing to do with all this... Yes, he does; you just don't understand him. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 27 19:22:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 640CD16A4CE for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E589343D1F for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:22:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 72256 invoked by uid 555); 28 Apr 2004 06:22:25 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.236) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083118944-72219 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Wed, 28 Apr 06:22:24 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E9FD9225; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:21:27 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:21:27 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20040427162126.GB1325@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427152819.GA4047@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Fba/0zbH8Xs+Fj9o" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040427152819.GA4047@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Chris Pressey cc: Sergey Zaharchenko cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:22:28 -0000 --Fba/0zbH8Xs+Fj9o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 11:28:19AM -0400, Rahul Siddharthan probably wrote: > Sergey Zaharchenko said on Apr 26, 2004 at 15:58:42: > > > > A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent English wor= d, > > > > phrase, sentence, paragraph, essay, book, or library would be enough > > > > though. > > >=20 > > > Which has very little relevance to programming languages. Anything > > > that can be done in one Turing-complete language can be done in > > > another Turing-complete language. The trade-off is in development > > > time ("expressiveness") and running time. > > >=20 > >=20 > > // Turing strikes again:) > > // Ok. Write this (to be compiled as a shared object) in portable C: >=20 > By "anything" above I meant "taking certain input data and performing > certain operations to yield a certain output". As DES points out, > your program doesn't actually do anything :) >=20 DES only pointed out a compilation problem (?), but my program actually does something. When made a shared object, it writes a string of characters to the standard output of the program which links to it or dlopen()s it. That doesn't fit my definition of `doing nothing'. You may as well `cin>>' data, perform any calculations required, and `cout<<' output. A quick hack to find out the list of files which do nothing in much the same manner on your machine: $ find /usr/lib/ -name "*.so*" |xargs grep _init Still not guessed? All those libs do something at loading time. Of course, they're not all written in C++. Some might have been written in C --- but I doubt it's *portable* C. Or can you persuade me of the contrary? --=20 DoubleF It is only the great men who are truly obscene. If they had not dared to be obscene, they could never have dared to be great. -- Havelock Ellis --Fba/0zbH8Xs+Fj9o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAjoiGwo7hT/9lVdwRAv6ZAJ97k18dCerJLu7ziHFsf/Nv8AwlAgCfUG23 AUuYcS7Hcr6UMbOs0BqHOb4= =yCUQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Fba/0zbH8Xs+Fj9o-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 27 19:39:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5B816A4CE for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D013843D66 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 78697 invoked by uid 555); 28 Apr 2004 06:39:26 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.236) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083119965-78668 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Wed, 28 Apr 06:39:25 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7E4E8248; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:39:21 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:39:20 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23QrHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Sergey Zaharchenko cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:39:29 -0000 --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 10:15:48PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=D0=ACrgrav probably wrote: > Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > > Sorry? I mean, you've got the object file, and can compile a shared > > library which will advertize itself, with the former, whereas the > > latter, as you've pointed out, doesn't compile. >=20 > neither does the former, with a proper compiler: >=20 > % g++ -o /dev/null -c a.cc > a.cc: In constructor `A::A()': > a.cc:11: error: `cout' undeclared (first use this function) > a.cc:11: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each > function it appears in.) > a.cc:11: error: `endl' undeclared (first use this function) >=20 > you're missing "using namespace std;" at the top. The fact that I forgot it doesn't mean what I'm trying to show you isn't true; add it and see what happens (you can also add -static to the cmdline). >=20 > > A quick hint: Turing has nothing to do with all this... >=20 > Yes, he does; you just don't understand him. >=20 If the thesis sounds like > Any algorithm that can be written in one Turing-complete language can > be written in another Turing-complete language. then I think I understand it. In the functional way (`what it can do') C is not different from C++, as you all are pointing out (so I'm not trying to persuade you Turing was wrong). It's different in what it allows you to inform the system (the linker, for instance) about (and it will learn that *before* any actual algorithm of yours is executed). > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 --=20 DoubleF Power corrupts. Powerpoint corrupts absolutely. -- Vint Cerf --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAjxlXwo7hT/9lVdwRAlihAJwM39qtbVAtdJHgrKG2enRjaccB6QCfRJSM GL6ZYxUu6MmanmyC0SAp0UY= =yzME -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 03:09:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C4816A502 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web13801.mail.yahoo.com (web13801.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E2F043D5F for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from little_sunshine_1998@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040428100944.32524.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.84.69.17] by web13801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:09:44 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 03:09:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "David W." To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Installing Linux Programm, here: Overnet X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:09:45 -0000 Hi, I installed the Overnet Client 0.51.2. (www.overnet.org) When I just simply started the programm now, it complained about missing ELF libs etc. So I installed linux_base and made "brandelf -t Linux overnet0.51.2" like mentioned in the FBSD Handbook. Now I get the following: su-2.05b# ./overnet0.51.2 Welcome to Overnet command line client 0.51.2 Enter commands at any time (type '?' for help) > Upload Queue not loaded Bad system call su-2.05b# That's it. Google gave me this: http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc/2003-10/1653.html But I have no command "linux": "Make sure you have the linux translation layer running: # linux" I can't reboot the machine, so maybe this is the problem? Is there an other way? Greetings, David W. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 05:40:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED9716A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 05:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [64.81.53.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724D143D66 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 05:40:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 441553A201; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 05:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 05:40:13 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: "David W." Message-ID: <20040428124012.GQ48138@seven.alameda.net> References: <20040428100944.32524.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040428100944.32524.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE-p5 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing Linux Programm, here: Overnet X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:40:13 -0000 On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 03:09:44AM -0700, David W. wrote: > Hi, > > I installed the Overnet Client 0.51.2. > (www.overnet.org) > When I just simply started the programm now, it > complained about missing ELF libs etc. > So I installed linux_base and made "brandelf -t Linux > overnet0.51.2" like mentioned in the FBSD Handbook. > > Now I get the following: > > su-2.05b# ./overnet0.51.2 > Welcome to Overnet command line client 0.51.2 > Enter commands at any time (type '?' for help) > > Upload Queue not loaded > Bad system call > su-2.05b# > > That's it. > > Google gave me this: > http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc/2003-10/1653.html > > But I have no command "linux": > "Make sure you have the linux translation layer > running: > # linux" > > I can't reboot the machine, so maybe this is the > problem? Is there an other way? > > Greetings, > > David W. The linux command is/was a shell script which would load the kernel module needed for linux emulation and run lddconfig. The linux_base executes those commands at the end of the install. Run kldstat to see if the linux module is loaded. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 07:30:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571FA16A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B177E43D5C for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id DEAC9530D; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 16:30:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 1FC47530C; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 16:30:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id F37BB33C71; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 16:30:10 +0200 (CEST) To: Sergey Zaharchenko References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 16:30:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> (Sergey Zaharchenko's message of "Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:39:20 +0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:30:28 -0000 Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > If the thesis sounds like > >> Any algorithm that can be written in one Turing-complete language can >> be written in another Turing-complete language. > > then I think I understand it. No. A language is Turing-complete if it can be used to implement a universal Turing machine. What you quote is merely a consequence of Turing-completeness, not its definition. > In the functional way (`what it can do') C is not different from C++, as > you all are pointing out (so I'm not trying to persuade you Turing was > wrong). It's different in what it allows you to inform the system (the > linker, for instance) about (and it will learn that *before* any actual > algorithm of yours is executed). The operating system, the C++ compiler and the linker are all written in C, and using C, you can write an emulator for the computer, on which the OS, C++ compiler and linker will behave exactly as you expect. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 09:33:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A279A16A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0788443D4C for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:33:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 18500 invoked by uid 555); 28 Apr 2004 20:33:34 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.227) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083170013-18476 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Wed, 28 Apr 20:33:33 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A7DB6DA; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:31:05 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:31:04 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23QrHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Sergey Zaharchenko cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 16:33:37 -0000 --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 04:30:10PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=D0=ACrgrav probably wrote: > Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > > If the thesis sounds like > > > >> Any algorithm that can be written in one Turing-complete language can > >> be written in another Turing-complete language. > > > > then I think I understand it. >=20 > No. A language is Turing-complete if it can be used to implement a > universal Turing machine. What you quote is merely a consequence of > Turing-completeness, not its definition. >=20 OK. If I take out every word about main() from C's specification (making it an ordinary function), will the resulting `language' stay Turing-complete? If not, why? Is there an *algorithm* that I can write in C that I can't write in this derived language? (except that I have to run some of the functions of the resulting code from somewhere else). > > > In the functional way (`what it can do') C is not different from C++, as > > you all are pointing out (so I'm not trying to persuade you Turing was > > wrong). It's different in what it allows you to inform the system (the > > linker, for instance) about (and it will learn that *before* any actual > > algorithm of yours is executed). >=20 > The operating system, the C++ compiler and the linker are all written > in C, and using C, you can write an emulator for the computer, on > which the OS, C++ compiler and linker will behave exactly as you > expect. >=20 [ In fact, what I described is indeed intended to be a shared library, not a whole program... ] Within such emulation you will certainly be able to whatever you wish, including dynamically linking a library which has its own initialization in it (the constructor translated to C) to an executable. Fortunately, you don't have to do it. But how do you link a real executable against an emulated shared library:)? > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no >=20 --=20 DoubleF Everything is worth precisely as much as a belch, the difference being that a belch is more satisfying. -- Ingmar Bergman --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAj9xHwo7hT/9lVdwRAt8hAJ9r4OJGbCpWZrLZOVNcGi/h/7+LywCcDIdk g7LZkf4zyPAWWUoSgNS1JN4= =5wV7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 10:06:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD32F16A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166D043D1D for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:06:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id B1E1B530C; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:06:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 6A3D6530A; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:05:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0E36233C71; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:05:42 +0200 (CEST) To: Sergey Zaharchenko References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:05:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> (Sergey Zaharchenko's message of "Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:31:04 +0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:06:03 -0000 Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > [ In fact, what I described is indeed intended to be a shared library, > not a whole program... ] this is irrelevant. you have to consider the system as a whole. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 10:06:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA24416A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EFBE43D46 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:06:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 31179 invoked by uid 555); 28 Apr 2004 21:06:05 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.156) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083171963-31120 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Wed, 28 Apr 21:06:03 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F1B55DA; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:44:19 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:44:19 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23QrHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20040428164418.GA11134@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:06:08 -0000 --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 08:31:04PM +0400, Sergey Zaharchenko probably wrote: >=20 > But how do you link a real executable against an emulated shared > library:)? >=20 What is more, to set up such type of an emulation, you have to get some code (emulator's code) running at the initialization time of your shared library, which is exactly the point of the discussion. --=20 DoubleF It's better to be wanted for murder that not to be wanted at all. -- Marty Winch --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAj99iwo7hT/9lVdwRAsMzAJoCbsDp0j9QXAs7gFXU38Cf4ZLcagCfY67l xLe/9RQHPpAYVqzR9cAA0xQ= =NNiO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 10:13:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F055216A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906F943D5F for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040428171310.KRNB27488.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:13:10 -0600 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:11:38 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040428101138.38e25081.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:13:11 -0000 On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:31:04 +0400 Sergey Zaharchenko wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 04:30:10PM +0200, > Dag-Erling Sm=D0=ACrgrav probably wrote: > > Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > > > If the thesis sounds like > > > > > >> Any algorithm that can be written in one Turing-complete language > > >can> be written in another Turing-complete language. > > > > > > then I think I understand it. > >=20 > > No. A language is Turing-complete if it can be used to implement a > > universal Turing machine. What you quote is merely a consequence of > > Turing-completeness, not its definition. > >=20 >=20 > OK. >=20 > If I take out every word about main() from C's specification (making > it an ordinary function), will the resulting `language' stay > Turing-complete? Not AFAIK. > If not, why? You no longer have a start state. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 10:34:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC65816A562 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cave.trolltruffles.com (h216-170-215-245.216-170.unk.tds.net [216.170.215.245]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0958F43D60 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:34:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: from cave.trolltruffles.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i3SHgVEp042201; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:42:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon@mail.trolltruffles.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by cave.trolltruffles.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id i3SHgTT6042200; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:42:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:42:29 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Sergey Zaharchenko Message-ID: <20040428174229.GS90558@cave.trolltruffles.com> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:34:37 -0000 I knew there was a good reason why I redirected -chat to /dev/null, and I'm going to restore that procmail rule in about 30 seconds. However, before I do that, I'll note this entire conversation is utterly stupid. That "feature" of C++ initializers being called on startup is simply from lib/csu/i386/c++rt0.c (or equivalent); if you really wanted the same feature in C, you'd write your own crt0.c and then call gcc with "-nostartfiles" If you don't want "main()" as your entry point, use "ld -e myfunc" instead. -- Jonathan (restoring procmail filters) Onn Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 08:31:04PM +0400, Sergey Zaharchenko wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 04:30:10PM +0200, > Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav probably wrote: > > Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > > > If the thesis sounds like > > > > > >> Any algorithm that can be written in one Turing-complete language can > > >> be written in another Turing-complete language. > > > > > > then I think I understand it. > > > > No. A language is Turing-complete if it can be used to implement a > > universal Turing machine. What you quote is merely a consequence of > > Turing-completeness, not its definition. > > > > OK. > > If I take out every word about main() from C's specification (making it > an ordinary function), will the resulting `language' stay > Turing-complete? If not, why? Is there an *algorithm* that I can write > in C that I can't write in this derived language? (except that I have to > run some of the functions of the resulting code from somewhere else). > > > > > > In the functional way (`what it can do') C is not different from C++, as > > > you all are pointing out (so I'm not trying to persuade you Turing was > > > wrong). It's different in what it allows you to inform the system (the > > > linker, for instance) about (and it will learn that *before* any actual > > > algorithm of yours is executed). > > > > The operating system, the C++ compiler and the linker are all written > > in C, and using C, you can write an emulator for the computer, on > > which the OS, C++ compiler and linker will behave exactly as you > > expect. > > > > [ In fact, what I described is indeed intended to be a shared library, > not a whole program... ] > > Within such emulation you will certainly be able to whatever you wish, > including dynamically linking a library which has its own initialization > in it (the constructor translated to C) to an executable. Fortunately, > you don't have to do it. > > But how do you link a real executable against an emulated shared > library:)? > > > DES > > -- > > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no > > > > -- > DoubleF > Everything is worth precisely as much as a belch, the difference being > that a belch is more satisfying. > -- Ingmar Bergman From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 19:24:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0492F16A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DCB243D3F for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 5569 invoked by uid 555); 29 Apr 2004 06:24:11 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.171) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083205450-5541 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Thu, 29 Apr 06:24:10 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A4BCC25D; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:24:04 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:24:04 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Jonathan Lemon Message-ID: <20040429022403.GA351@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> <20040428174229.GS90558@cave.trolltruffles.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040428174229.GS90558@cave.trolltruffles.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Sergey Zaharchenko cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 02:24:15 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 12:42:29PM -0500, Jonathan Lemon probably wrote: > I knew there was a good reason why I redirected -chat to /dev/null, > and I'm going to restore that procmail rule in about 30 seconds. >=20 > However, before I do that, I'll note this entire conversation is=20 > utterly stupid. That "feature" of C++ initializers being called=20 > on startup is simply from lib/csu/i386/c++rt0.c (or equivalent); > if you really wanted the same feature in C, you'd write your own > crt0.c and then call gcc with "-nostartfiles" >=20 > If you don't want "main()" as your entry point, use "ld -e myfunc" instea= d. Sure, that's really good (though you could just write your own _init() in your source and call gcc with -nostdlib) --- but I wanted it be portable (that's what the discussion is actually above). So you're cheating:). --=20 DoubleF The law will never make men free; it is men who have got to make the law free. -- Henry David Thoreau --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAkGdDwo7hT/9lVdwRAmqxAJ9ZQ+XKw49RKxkmJQatYGHK1ESPUgCeMHEC ZxUo3q4y6veiieCj4K25Du0= =rols -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 19:29:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3DA16A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E540B43D4C for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 7047 invoked by uid 555); 29 Apr 2004 06:29:46 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.171) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083205782-6975 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Thu, 29 Apr 06:29:42 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D20DE1A4; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:29:37 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:29:37 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23QrHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20040429022937.GB351@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Sergey Zaharchenko cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 02:29:49 -0000 --dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 07:05:41PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=D0=ACrgrav probably wrote: > Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > > [ In fact, what I described is indeed intended to be a shared library, > > not a whole program... ] >=20 > this is irrelevant. you have to consider the system as a whole. >=20 Consider the following situation. You have to write a plugin for some already existing program (and that program uses dlopen() on UN*X-like systems and something appropriate on Windoze and etc to load the shared library). Are you going to persuade the author to `consider they system as a whole' and link it statically to their program or what? --=20 DoubleF "The chain which can be yanked is not the eternal chain." -- G. Fitch --dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAkGiRwo7hT/9lVdwRApYGAJ9nW7HcysgqwAYXVClsWVYYzoV3nACfVRg6 gUIQJHSPr2mXpvyFWaH3ZKU= =eJOT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 19:59:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF8D16A4CF for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0630343D46 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:59:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 15337 invoked by uid 555); 29 Apr 2004 06:59:29 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.190) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083207568-15325 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Thu, 29 Apr 06:59:28 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D86F1DD; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:59:24 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:59:23 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Chris Pressey Message-ID: <20040429025923.GA2015@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> <20040428101138.38e25081.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040428101138.38e25081.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 02:59:31 -0000 --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 28, 2004 at 10:11:38AM -0700, Chris Pressey probably wrote: > On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:31:04 +0400 > Sergey Zaharchenko wrote: > >=20 > > If I take out every word about main() from C's specification (making > > it an ordinary function), will the resulting `language' stay > > Turing-complete? >=20 > Not AFAIK. >=20 > > If not, why? >=20 > You no longer have a start state. >=20 What if I add `The function with the same name as the executable starts the program's execution like main() does in C'? --=20 DoubleF Decision maker, n.: The person in your office who was unable to form a task force before the music stopped. --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAkG+Lwo7hT/9lVdwRAvTQAJ0f6cSKEIkPLrJnwJnlUtVQx7O6/wCcDhG5 q0DpeZUjUNfAVbHvUbbUie0= =Xl9Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 21:35:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC6516A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD91743D2F for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:34:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 23C82530C; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:34:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 24DF95309; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:34:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0E1AD33C71; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:34:47 +0200 (CEST) To: Sergey Zaharchenko References: <20040425215837.3f4708fe.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040426094335.GA7578@online.fr> <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> <20040429022937.GB351@Shark.localdomain> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:34:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040429022937.GB351@Shark.localdomain> (Sergey Zaharchenko's message of "Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:29:37 +0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:35:00 -0000 Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > Consider the following situation. You have to write a plugin for some > already existing program (and that program uses dlopen() on UN*X-like > systems and something appropriate on Windoze and etc to load the shared > library). Are you going to persuade the author to `consider they system > as a whole' and link it statically to their program or what? This has nothing to do with Turing-completeness. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 28 21:40:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332FD16A4CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D51C743D2F for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:40:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 49884 invoked by uid 555); 29 Apr 2004 08:40:40 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.183) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083213639-49859 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Thu, 29 Apr 08:40:39 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5201327A; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:39:54 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:39:54 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23QrHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20040429043953.GC5872@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040426115842.GA4144@Shark.localdomain> <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> <20040429022937.GB351@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UPT3ojh+0CqEDtpF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Sergey Zaharchenko cc: Chris Pressey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:40:43 -0000 --UPT3ojh+0CqEDtpF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 29, 2004 at 06:34:46AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=D0=ACrgrav probably wrote: > Sergey Zaharchenko writes: > > Consider the following situation. You have to write a plugin for some > > already existing program (and that program uses dlopen() on UN*X-like > > systems and something appropriate on Windoze and etc to load the shared > > library). Are you going to persuade the author to `consider they system > > as a whole' and link it statically to their program or what? >=20 > This has nothing to do with Turing-completeness. >=20 But it does have something to do with your (in?)ability to write such plug-ins in portable C. It wasn't me who spoke about Turing for the first time. --=20 DoubleF Machines certainly can solve problems, store information, correlate, and play games -- but not with pleasure. -- Leo Rosten --UPT3ojh+0CqEDtpF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAkIcZwo7hT/9lVdwRAissAJ9sWvCDp5ni6CpFV+kD84HfSgOFlACffe3D ZksIV9ok8wooXG7BD8/GL5Q= =0GCQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UPT3ojh+0CqEDtpF-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 29 01:42:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1052F16A4CE for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 01:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A454E43D3F for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 01:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1BJ77T-0001RQ-00; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 01:42:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 01:42:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: help with an Apache Webserver administrator Job Task Analysis X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 08:42:13 -0000 I have created an Apache Webserver administrator Job Task Analysis with 179 Apache-related task statements. I hope to make the survey available on May 1. The results will be openly-available. I am looking for experienced Apache webserver administrators to help. Is anyone interested and available to help critique and test the survey before then? Or are you interested in helping with the management or quality review (or other random jobs) for an Apache webserver administration certification? Please let me know off-list, and I'll send the details. Thank you, Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 29 06:39:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2DE16A4CE for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE2943D46 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-0cdfepc.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.187.44] helo=bluerondo) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BJBkm-0007kd-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 06:39:04 -0700 Received: (qmail 32364 invoked by uid 1002); 29 Apr 2004 13:39:05 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:39:04 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Sergey Zaharchenko Message-ID: <20040429133904.GA32185@online.fr> References: <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> <20040429022937.GB351@Shark.localdomain> <20040429043953.GC5872@Shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040429043953.GC5872@Shark.localdomain> X-Operating-System: DragonFly 1.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: Chris Pressey cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:39:05 -0000 Sergey Zaharchenko said on Apr 29, 2004 at 08:39:54: > It wasn't me who spoke about Turing for the first time. No, that was me. But it was you who went off in a red-herring direction about it. Go back and re-read the context. R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 29 07:53:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0697816A4CF for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 40D9043D31 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:53:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 82867 invoked by uid 555); 29 Apr 2004 18:53:04 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.148.32) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1083250383-82853 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Thu, 29 Apr 18:53:03 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0DAA18B; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:51:17 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:51:17 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20040429145116.GA3964@Shark.localdomain> References: <20040427160737.GA1325@Shark.localdomain> <20040428023920.GA382@Shark.localdomain> <20040428163104.GA10537@Shark.localdomain> <20040429022937.GB351@Shark.localdomain> <20040429043953.GC5872@Shark.localdomain> <20040429133904.GA32185@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J/dobhs11T7y2rNN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040429133904.GA32185@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Chris Pressey cc: Sergey Zaharchenko cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:53:08 -0000 --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 29, 2004 at 09:39:04AM -0400, Rahul Siddharthan probably wrote: > Sergey Zaharchenko said on Apr 29, 2004 at 08:39:54: > > It wasn't me who spoke about Turing for the first time. >=20 > No, that was me. But it was you who went off in a red-herring > direction about it. Go back and re-read the context. >=20 Actually, it wasn't the first post which mentioned Turing. Anyway, re-reading: > Which has very little relevance to programming languages. Anything > that can be done in one Turing-complete language can be done in > another Turing-complete language. The trade-off is in development > time ("expressiveness") and running time. Please define `anything'.=20 I want to write a piece of code. I'll try to describe it detailedly further. If it fits your definition of `anything', go ahead and try to write it. If my understanding of `anything' is correct, I believe you won't be able to do it in C, while it's easy to do that in C++. a) It must be written in portable C. b) It will be linked either as a (maybe part of) shared library (we assume the system supports shared libraries for simplicity). c) It has 3 functions: initialize() (like allocating memory and registering run()), run() (anything you like) and deinitialize(). d) The main program (which will use the shared library) will export a linked list (any kind you wish) which initialize() can access to `register' run() and deinitialize() --- vice versa. e) The main program knows nothing about any of these functions. No details should be visible (the main program won't call [de]initialize() or run() for you directly, you're on your own). f) You don't want to hack the main program or the operating system to overcome any difficulties you will have. If you think these rules are so masochistic that no-one will ever think of such a combination --- well, here I am:) --=20 DoubleF Corruption is not the #1 priority of the Police Commissioner. His job is to enforce the law and fight crime. -- P.B.A. President E. J. Kiernan --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAkRZkwo7hT/9lVdwRAqvzAJ9p1EgOHEhwjyi9Oijx5o5ojSvtdACdHn5J r2GnFE0djnV9vM29le5YNPw= =eOp/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 29 18:15:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA7816A4CE; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA4543D58; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:15:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from laptop.unixathome.org (ducky.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD603D34; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) by laptop.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F9940BF; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@laptop.unixathome.org To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20040429210526.H792@laptop.unixathome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Help wanted for BSDCan X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 01:15:05 -0000 Hi, We are now two weeks from BSDCan. I have a few tasks which I need help with. Some may be performed remotely, others need you to be in Ottawa. Remote work: Unless otherwise noted, all coding is in PHP with PostgreSQL. * I need some code modified to include tax on an invoice. Should only be a couple of hours at most * Write code to extract names from the database to print them on badges. You don't need to have a printer for this. On site work * I need volunteers to help set up and tear down network gear. Not much involved with this. A hour at the start and the end of each day. * Gofers - just be there to help with anything that might come up thanks -- Dan Langille - http://www.BSDCan.org/