From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 26 14:20:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA5916A4CE; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (fia148-72.dsl.hccnet.nl [62.251.72.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B331943D3F; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from colin@kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl) Received: from localhost (colin@localhost) by kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBQEKbh02406; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:20:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:20:36 +0100 From: "Colin J. Raven" To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:46 -0000 On Dec 25, Nikolas Britton responded thusly: > Colin J. Raven wrote: > >> On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav launched this into the bitstream: >>=20 >>> Chris writes: >>>=20 >>>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>>> drive the car. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >>> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. >>=20 >>=20 >> One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of t= he=20 >> engine. > > > One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking= the=20 > tires, and taking it for a test drive. > One should not need to strike tires with one's footwear in order to=20 determine the suitability of the vehicle. Regards, -Colin -- Colin J. Raven 3:19PM up 4:20, 2 users, load averages: 1.76, 1.63, 1.59 Today's Random Silliness: "There's a disturbance in the force, OK...who didn't flush the toilet?" From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 11:02:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23F016A4ED for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:02:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7256843D4C for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:02:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBRB2MiQ030343 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:02:22 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBRB2Ldg030337 for freebsd-www@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:02:21 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:02:21 GMT Message-Id: <200412271102.iBRB2Ldg030337@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: peter set sender to owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:02:22 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2002/09/28] www/43454 www Packages hard to find, often missing o [2003/04/18] www/51135 www Problems with the mailing-lists search in o [2003/12/31] www/60770 www query-pr-summary.cgi can't find the PRs a o [2004/03/06] www/63854 www PR-web page loses text 4 problems total. Non-critical problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2002/03/07] www/35647 www www; combine query-by-number and multi-fi s [2002/05/24] www/38500 www gnats web form is overenthusiastic about o [2002/09/08] www/42558 www http://www.freebsd.org/search produces in o [2002/10/17] www/44181 www www "Release Information" organization o [2003/11/15] www/59307 www [patch] xml/xsl'ify & update publications o [2004/01/24] www/61824 www Misleading documentation on FreeBSD insta o [2004/02/29] www/63552 www Validation errors due to CAPs in attribut o [2004/03/25] www/64689 www Missing data on ftp.freebsd.org o [2004/05/22] www/67042 www FreeBSD rdf feed not valid o [2004/06/02] www/67502 www cvs-all commit message did not include al o [2004/06/04] www/67554 www man-cgi visual glitch on 3-word titles o [2004/06/19] www/68114 www bad usability - download link missing o [2004/07/26] www/69631 www please add to support list s [2004/07/30] www/69780 www query-pr-summary.cgi generates very large o [2004/08/21] www/70751 www [PATCH] www/en/where.sgml update o [2004/09/08] www/71492 www (software submission) -> development o [2004/11/05] www/73549 www Mail list archive navigation difficulty o [2004/11/05] www/73551 www List archive 'quoted-printable' corruptio f [2004/11/26] www/74395 www We would like our company listed as we us o [2004/11/26] www/74407 www Please add us to the list of FreeBSD vend o [2004/12/03] www/74651 www FreeBSD commercial software developer o [2004/12/09] docs/74889 www S_ISREG etc marcos missing from stat man o [2004/12/24] www/75475 www Add freebsd-usb list to search page 23 problems total. From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 20:04:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D1A16A4CE; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:04:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7107E43D41; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:04:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@zumbrunn.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:04:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com><20041223124615.B1597@knight.ixsystems.net> <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:04:14 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:04:18 -0000 In the spirit of... On Dec 24, 2004, at 1:00 AM, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > If somebody seriously want to do something for an improved website, I > think people should come up with a mockup of what they think a better > website would look like and post it to the www@ (and perhaps the > advocacy@) list. Just talking about it won't change anything (as the > mail archives shows plenty of examples of)... First Page: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif On other pages, where appropriate: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif An even more minimalist approach could be taken by just changing two existing images and adding two lines to the current CSS styles, yielding 95% of what the above screenshots show. Chris From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 27 20:53:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EF416A4CE for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:53:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from daemon.li (daemon.li [213.203.244.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFA743D45 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:53:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1000) by daemon.li with local; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:53:28 +0000 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:53:28 +0000 From: Josef El-Rayes To: Chris Zumbrunn Message-ID: <20041227205328.GB25424@daemon.li> References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_daemon.li-25470-1104180808-0001-2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:53:30 -0000 This is a MIME-formatted message. If you see this text it means that your E-mail software does not support MIME-formatted messages. --=_daemon.li-25470-1104180808-0001-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Zumbrunn : > First Page: > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif >=20 > On other pages, where appropriate: > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif looks very interesting, is the grey border, which carries the links to subcategories, under the headline image an image or created via css? -josef --=20 Josef El-Rayes (__) Email: josef@daemon.li \\\'',)=20 Web: http://daemon.li/ \/ \ ^ FreeBSD Security Team .\._/_) --=_daemon.li-25470-1104180808-0001-2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBQdB2R1nFItmnnbU8AQIf+wgAnACGIyLcTON09HI18M7GwJrw+d/lQWXo 1LYoMtK69Y9ti1vFKerprkcWukIPY8bvK+G7/5K8j2fl/A1jSCxmGyvohvFFGs0h BejyY14yJxylrU4G8oJUzL8M0ejkZkJJjGc9BCtMCGh1Vz7k+xkt17nFfBGAOFQ1 zgnjVevC1Fw0dOugDGzJtnVwt8b8z7l/o9HQMC3oZ2hmTP6NcKTjD9/kF/53Jewv pDKkLgRczA4Ze7XJ6OSgiScHRjsXJF5W9JGdlRAiRR8sIoX6F4CWqHBi9DxnTNX+ tjHguAZvu8cGc2+7Pj9R81uHKsjjQf9wJie45FxdVdPXXFlTheyuJA== =F6ZN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_daemon.li-25470-1104180808-0001-2-- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 00:51:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E034016A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151B243D39; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBS0pe84055972; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:51:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:57:25 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Burke References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:44 -0000 Simon Burke wrote: [snip] >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >> ugly. > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] >>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >> available to all that support this project. > > > I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont > understand Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 01:25:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E2A16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:25:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2BACD43D1F; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:25:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@zumbrunn.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:25:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041227205328.GB25424@daemon.li> References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20041227205328.GB25424@daemon.li> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <55EB760A-586F-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:25:19 +0100 To: Josef El-Rayes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:25:21 -0000 On Dec 27, 2004, at 9:53 PM, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn : >> First Page: >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif >> >> On other pages, where appropriate: >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif > > looks very interesting, is the grey border, > which carries the links to subcategories, > under the headline image an image or created via css? Could be either. CSS would be better - but an image would maybe be easier/quicker to implement. The grey bar could also be a background image in a table cell. Eventually, it certainly should be CSS (just like everything else). Chris From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 01:44:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC1816A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D5943D5E; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fpawlak@wi.rr.com) Received: from john.wi.rr.com (CPE-24-160-252-207.wi.rr.com [24.160.252.207]) iBS1huIN014267; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:43:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@pop-server.wi.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:44:39 -0600 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Simon Burke From: Frank Pawlak In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-235E4711 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:07 -0000 This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it yourself". I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers..... Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there....;-) Frank At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >Simon Burke wrote: >[snip] >>>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >>> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >>> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >>> ugly. >> >>Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to >>do. Also i actually like how it looks. >>A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to >>navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics >>really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they >>would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you >>have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > >This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. >Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy >installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. >But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the >website. Why? >Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and >tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They >might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the >lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but >one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest >linux advocate instead. >We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken >seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > >[snip] >>>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >>> available to all that support this project. >> >>I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont >>understand > >Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > >-- >R >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 02:46:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BCEB16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13D643D45; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228024602i9100rffrre>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:03 +0000 Message-ID: <41D0C8E6.2040609@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:45:58 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:04 -0000 Frank Pawlak wrote: > This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost > periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several > attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this > author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has > been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise > to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, > apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it > yourself". I say we keep on rehashing this everyday until someone does it just to shut us up. ;-) Has there ever been an attempt at forming a group so us like minded people "can" fix it ourselfs? > > I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial > properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The > development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought > many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the > core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers..... > Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there....;-) > > Frank > > At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> Simon Burke wrote: >> [snip] >> >>>> 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the >>>> FreeBSD >>>> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >>>> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a >>>> redesign >>>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without >>>> being >>>> ugly. >>> >>> >>> Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to >>> do. Also i actually like how it looks. >>> A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>> dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to >>> navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics >>> really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they >>> would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you >>> have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. >> >> >> This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the >> problem. >> Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the >> flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to >> have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to >> improve the website. Why? >> Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or >> similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation >> knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid >> stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as >> a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming >> towards the nearest linux advocate instead. >> We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be >> taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about >> it! >> >> [snip] >> >>>> 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >>>> available to all that support this project. >>> >>> >>> I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont >>> understand >> >> >> Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. >> >> -- >> R >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 > > > From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 02:59:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB4516A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:59:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 596FC43D58 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:59:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@behanna.org) Received: (qmail 75818 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 02:59:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO acs-24-154-1-235.zoominternet.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 28 Dec 2004 02:59:37 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 24.154.1.235 From: Chris BeHanna Organization: Western Pennsylvania Pizza Disposal Unit To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:59:35 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> <41D0C8E6.2040609@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41D0C8E6.2040609@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412272159.36135.chris@behanna.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@behanna.org List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:59:39 -0000 Distribution trimmed to -advocacy and -www. On Monday 27 December 2004 21:45, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost > > periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several > > attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this > > author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has > > been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise > > to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, > > apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it > > yourself". > > I say we keep on rehashing this everyday until someone does it just to > shut us up. ;-) Has there ever been an attempt at forming a group so us > like minded people "can" fix it ourselfs? In case you missed it, a post went by a few days ago about the in-progress conversion of the site to use CSS, which will make all the things folks have been desiring much easier to do. I'm sure the www-meisters wouldn't mind help doing that, and once that's done, people who were interested could do up some demos and core or whomever could decide what they liked best. One thing's for sure, "someone should fix this" bitching from the peanut gallery will NEVER get it done. Thanks, -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer (Remove "bogus" before responding.) chris@bogus.behanna.org Turning coffee into software since 1990. From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 05:36:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF3616A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E6643D46; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBS5aav82480; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:36:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , "Simon Burke" Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:36:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:46 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > Vetterberg > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM > To: Simon Burke > Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Simon Burke wrote: > [snip] > >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But > a redesign > >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > >> ugly. > > > > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. > But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > improve the website. Why? > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't do what they need done. If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a Windows installation. The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the Windows consultants they drag in all tell them "I can't do that" either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD production installs are least-cost deals. All of the ones we have ever sold to customers (and we do both Windows and UNIX projects) are like this. I'm sure that one of these days we might get a plum contract that is a high-power server that cannot be done with Windows and the customer knows it, and wants it done UNIX, it's only a matter of time. But I would be willing to bet that after they ask if we can do UNIX and we say yes, their next question will be if we can do Sun, which we can. And frankly the cost of Solaris for a server is nothing compared to the labor cost. I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, and the customer was willing to deviate from Microsoft. VERY few customers are willing to deviate from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. And the ones that are willing almost always want to do it themselves, and only want us to come in and set everything up for them while they watch us over the shoulder and try to get us to teach them how to do it - because these are people who are too lazy to read the manual and learn how to do things themselves, they just want someone to set it up and teach them how to maintain it, so they can pay the minimum amount of money for the specialist, and spend the minimum amount of time learning how to do anything. > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees in an office building, then even you must know that the check signers in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. Most of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales ranks, and not through the technology ranks. These are people who 25 years ago were partying their way through a business degree in some university and the only thing that they really know well is how to sell their companies products. That's why they work at a big company, didn't you know? Deep down they know they are incompetents and they are too scared to go out on their own even when they could make triple the money if they really knew what they were doing. They don't really understand anything about technology infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. And the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that in business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' aspect of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled into their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there being any such thing as 'key employees' Why do you think that the current federal government administration just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays big business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the current debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the amount of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. Very few of these idiots are anything more than closet control freaks. To be successful in todays market you have to be able to individualize your products to what the customers in the market want, and there is no way for a big business to do that without really drastically increasing the complexity of it's business workflow. Customers today want you to stock 100 variations of your product and build all of them to order, and they want it for the same price that 20 years ago they would buy the cookie-cutter version you could sell them for. The only way to do that is to integrate technology completely in every last speck of business process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of key technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get the hell out' Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is something that runs computers like winders is. And rather than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get them sold on the idea that your providing a -solution to their problems- not that your providing them some freebsd system that is real cool and does something they are pretty fuzzy about exactly what. If they start asking you exactly how your going to do this don't get sidetracked into a technologists conversation. In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to be finished building the new system, who is going to train the end users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money are they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money they are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should be figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection to them, then they should like you enough so that they want you to build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. Ted From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 06:46:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB5316A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:46:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from daemon.li (daemon.li [213.203.244.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B3E43D45 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:46:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1000) by daemon.li with local; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:46:48 +0000 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:46:48 +0000 From: Josef El-Rayes To: Chris Zumbrunn Message-ID: <20041228064647.GA29110@daemon.li> References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20041227205328.GB25424@daemon.li> <55EB760A-586F-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_daemon.li-29121-1104216408-0001-2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55EB760A-586F-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:46:49 -0000 This is a MIME-formatted message. If you see this text it means that your E-mail software does not support MIME-formatted messages. --=_daemon.li-29121-1104216408-0001-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Zumbrunn : > >looks very interesting, is the grey border, > >which carries the links to subcategories, > >under the headline image an image or created via css? >=20 > Could be either. CSS would be better - but an image would maybe be=20 > easier/quicker to implement. The grey bar could also be a=20 > background image in a table cell. Eventually, it certainly should=20 > be CSS (just like everything else). i think CSS is preferable because it is easier to change (we dont want to redraw this image for every link that changes in it or the translation teams definitely do not want to redraw this themselves) and a CSS based bar is resizeable - think of the website being viewed on non-standard computers. greets, josef --=20 Josef El-Rayes (__) Email: josef@daemon.li \\\'',)=20 Web: http://daemon.li/ \/ \ ^ FreeBSD Security Team .\._/_) --=_daemon.li-29121-1104216408-0001-2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBQdEBV1nFItmnnbU8AQKQOwgAkU1jRk7m4PzjjDsME9IzH5WXit6TZjTJ 7BRzQdZTH4hbeRs0G1E3QHoky/QRnBkRgS5WILyw6qf4W1W0oKS3FlEq7WaxJBHq mhqDyBEHWFVId1OVu6vIYMMNmML1pPN4aTs2OejBI1tPkd+ValE67wBs/0W3KsJM XzXiCYBXLY4fe99ulpCZhqjuuKdHcwagautWow2XAy1alCcfUEAdAw2bti7ULpCn l4g3gI1kHGGl2xWdlf6I7o6noYxbXHF5/1R9QRcDso655MNqzY8TSZ99DkN2up3j jJRBr4aiRKpJi7LcV2oORkzATRlwRhPogbazphxgua78BNQmJsG8nw== =/xty -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_daemon.li-29121-1104216408-0001-2-- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 07:23:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F4716A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F87E43D4C; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fpawlak@wi.rr.com) Received: from john.wi.rr.com (CPE-24-160-252-207.wi.rr.com [24.160.252.207]) iBS7NEgV028552; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:23:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20041228011612.0285ccd8@pop-server.wi.rr.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@pop-server.wi.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:23:57 -0600 To: Ted Mittelstaedt , "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Simon Burke From: Frank Pawlak In-Reply-To: References: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-235E4711 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:26 -0000 This beyond a doubt is one of the best explanations that I have seen, heard, expressed, etc., of how the fsck'ed up world of business does IT stuff, and I have done IT consulting on various levels for over 18 years. Very well said Ted. It points out quite well why BSD in general has a bad time in the marketplace. Regards, Frank At 11:36 PM 12/27/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > > Vetterberg > > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM > > To: Simon Burke > > Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > > > > Simon Burke wrote: > > [snip] > > >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > > >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > > >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But > > a redesign > > >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > > >> ugly. > > > > > > > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > > problem. > >Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration >in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. > > > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > > have today. > >That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it >because it works better than most commercial operating systems let >alone most operating systems. > > > But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > > improve the website. Why? > > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. > >Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about >a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me >in to you' > >FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux >meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually >meets B and doesen't usually meet A. > >The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and >I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, >then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into >you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become >very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. >I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very >few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless >your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. > >You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk >thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't >understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate >technology into their systems, they don't even understand their >current system. > >CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows >guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can >boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows >if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't >do what they need done. > >If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging >Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, >until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over >commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up >this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have >extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will >jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then >I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage >their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they >have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and >a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some >critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation >and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a >Windows installation. > >The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the >Windows consultants they drag in all tell them "I can't do that" >either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they >want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus >Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. > >My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD production installs >are least-cost deals. All of the ones we have ever sold to >customers (and we do both Windows and UNIX projects) are like this. >I'm sure that one of these days we might get a plum contract that >is a high-power server that cannot be done with Windows and the >customer knows it, and wants it done UNIX, it's only a matter of >time. But I would be willing to bet that after they ask if we can >do UNIX and we say yes, their next question will be if we can do >Sun, which we can. And frankly the cost of Solaris for a server is >nothing compared to the labor cost. > >I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won >if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, and the customer was willing >to deviate from Microsoft. VERY few customers are willing to deviate >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. And the ones >that are willing almost always want to do it themselves, and only >want us to come in and set everything up for them while they watch >us over the shoulder and try to get us to teach them how to >do it - because these are people who are too lazy to read the manual >and learn how to do things themselves, they just want someone to >set it up and teach them how to maintain it, so they can pay the >minimum amount of money for the specialist, and spend the minimum >amount of time learning how to do anything. > > > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > > > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > > > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > > > >Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here >but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees >in an office building, then even you must know that the check signers >in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. Most >of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales ranks, >and not through the technology ranks. These are people who 25 years ago >were partying their way through a business degree in some university >and the only thing that they really know well is how to sell their >companies products. That's why they work at a big company, didn't you >know? Deep down they know they are incompetents and they are too >scared to go out on their own even when they could make triple the >money if they really knew what they were doing. > >They don't really understand anything about technology >infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high >school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. And >the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that in >business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' aspect >of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled into >their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be >interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there >being any such thing as 'key employees' > >Why do you think that the current federal government administration >just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new >economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to >new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that >comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays >big business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing >such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the current >debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the amount >of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. Very >few of these idiots are anything more than closet control freaks. > >To be successful in todays market you have to be able to individualize >your products to what the customers in the market want, and there >is no way for a big business to do that without really drastically >increasing the complexity of it's business workflow. Customers today want >you to stock 100 variations of your product and build all of them to order, >and they want it for the same price that 20 years ago they would >buy the cookie-cutter version you could sell them for. The only >way to do that is to integrate technology completely in every last >speck of business process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of >key technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned >this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is >going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants >to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what >the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it >for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get >the hell out' > >Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these >CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big >words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and >even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is >something that runs computers like winders is. And rather >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get >them sold on the idea that your providing a -solution to their >problems- not that your providing them some freebsd system >that is real cool and does something they are pretty fuzzy >about exactly what. If they start asking you exactly how your >going to do this don't get sidetracked into a technologists >conversation. > >In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson >that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These >CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to >be finished building the new system, who is going to train the >end users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money >are they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money >they are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should >be figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even >be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on >yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection >to them, then they should like you enough so that they want you >to build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and >after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. > >Ted > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 12:50:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A0F16A540; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B840343D5D; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228125011i9100rfdmee>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:12 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1567F.9000901@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:50:07 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:13 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' >>Vetterberg >>Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM >>To: Simon Burke >>Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; >>freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >>Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? >> >> >> >> > > >>Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the >>flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to >>have today. >> >> > >That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it >because it works better than most commercial operating systems let >alone most operating systems. > > It does, and that is why I use it. Amiga was like that too. > > >>But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to >>improve the website. Why? >>Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar >>and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows >>why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid >>stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as >>a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming >>towards the nearest linux advocate instead. >> >> > >Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about >a product website. > Why are you even talking to CEOs? This is a job for CTOs and/or CIOs, and if a company didn't have one you wound then be talking to a CFO or COO. >What they care about is: 'can what I need done >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me >in to you' > > d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... "No one ever got fired for buying IBM" >I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won >if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, > You assuming the consultant even knows about FreeBSD, most do not. >and the customer was willing >to deviate from Microsoft. > Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. > VERY few customers are willing to deviate >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. > On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. > > >>We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be >>taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! >> >> >> > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > Now thats just asinine. > >Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these >CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big >words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and >even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is >something that runs computers like winders is. > I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX is. at best they mistake it for Linux. >And rather >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. > I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and CIOs. > >In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson >that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. > this is a good idea, I'd have to agree with him. >You shouldn't even >be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on >yourself and your company, > Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical merit alone. I want a part of the linux pie! From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 28 18:47:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FFF16A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:47:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED6143D58 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:47:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 26898 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2004 18:47:15 -0000 Received: from gate.funkthat.com (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Dec 2004 18:47:15 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (mhmdaz@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])iBSIlEGH015363; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBSIlCI4015359; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:47:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:47:12 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-ID: <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:47:16 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote this message on Tue, Dec 28, 2004 at 01:57 +0100: > >Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > >do. Also i actually like how it looks. > >A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > >dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > >navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > >really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > >would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > >have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > problem. > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > improve the website. Why? > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > > [snip] > >>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > >> available to all that support this project. > > > > > >I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont > >understand > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. Then we should create a website www.freebsdforcxo.com and use that. The problem is that the base FreeBSD.org website should remain as it is. It is targeted to technical people who might not be running a GUI web browser and want quick access to information. Making it more pretty to sell, while destroying the usability for 99% of the audience is not a solution. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 08:22:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1AA16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B20343D1D; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBT8Mfv87971; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:41 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41D1567F.9000901@nbritton.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:48 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Nikolas Britton > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:50 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; > freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Simon Burke > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >What they care about is: 'can what I need done > >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me > >in to you' > > > > > d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d > and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... "No one ever > got fired for buying IBM" > If you think about it, d and e are the same thing as a and c. What does support constitute to the average CEO? If you asked them they would say that it's the ability to pick up the phone and get the problem fixed, right? Well guess what - you can do that with FreeBSD, there's paid incident support here: http://www.bsdmall.com/fbsdpay4tech.html about the same cost as the Microsoft offering, as a matter of fact. If you tell them that, they will sit back, scratch their head, and eventually say something along the lines of 'well I can just call any joe blow in the yellow pages for windows questions' And they are right. Because there's lots of so-called 'windows consultants' out there who are to put it bluntly, so piss-poor that they will give you gobs of free-but-worthless support over the phone in an attempt to get an appointment with you for some billable time. And if that doesen't work well, my kid brother has a computer that he plays Doom on all the time so he must be a computer sexpert, right? The people selling commercial FreeBSD support want a lot of money - but in exchange you get support that is actually worth what you pay for. The people selling commercial Windows support are all over the map - some do want a lot of money for good support, others will take a little bit of money for crap support. The CEOs that don't know any better figure that the cheap support is as good as the expensive support - so they then classify the expensive support (both windows and freebsd) in the 'nonexistent' category and then tell you with a straight face that freebsd is not supported. Now, if your talking hardware support - then please, yes there's lots of cheapskates running offices who are buying winprinters so they can save $50, we know that. And paying double for the ink cartridges, yes I know that one too. And as for the every one else uses it - where do you see this most? It's in the companies that don't want to spend a cent on training people. They want to hire their secretaries out of the local 1 year business prep school and put them to work writing letters with Microsoft Word, because that is all the business prep school trains them to do. What is missed of course is that since those sorts of people are only good for plunking down in front of a Windows XP system with Microsoft Word on it, after those people get finished writing your Microsoft Word document, they spend the last 6 hours of the day downloading new screensavers, changing the fonts on their computers, instant messaging their friends, etc. If instead you plunked them down in front of a FreeBSD system running XFree, after they got done with writing the memo you wanted them to write, they would be unable to idle away time on the computer, and you might actually get some useful work out of them. If you don't believe this take a look at the Microsoft desktop offerings. Microsoft is belatedly waking up to this and ever since NT, a skilled Windows admin can go in and lock down every scrap of anything on all his Windows NT, 2K, or XP desktops so that the secretaries can't do anything other than what their job is. And more and more companies are starting to do this, or at least try doing it. > Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD > from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company > that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. > you might be. But your fighting the hardest battle. Unlike you I'm out there showing them how many tens of thousands of dollars they are going to save by not buying a new server that is running XP Pro Server, and Microsoft Exchange, and all the other nasty proprietary business software that Microsoft has designed to leech onto your company. > > VERY few customers are willing to deviate > >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. > > > On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where > talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. > The Linux people are also talking about desktops. In fact, they are concentrating more on the desktops now than on the servers, that is why the Linux distros all have GUI installers and the like. When was the last time you installed Linux? Today's Linux is designed to be installed by a non-technical user, same as Windows. > > > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue > >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite > obviously > >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > > > > Now thats just asinine. > Not it is not. He is trying to sell himself and his company. Why in the heck shouldn't he be directing his customers to himself and his companies website? Geeze - the FreeBSD website not only has FreeBSD info it has lists of OTHER consultants. Why on earth would a consultant making a presentation want to direct the customer to a site that would give the customer a list of competitors? > > > I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX > is. at best they mistake it for Linux. > Then don't even mention UNIX or Windows at all. > >And rather > >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice > >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be > >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. > > > I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to > the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the > company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and > CIOs. > Exactly - which is why as I said before (and you cut) the sales presentation is going to be a dud if all you do is sit there talking about how great this FreeBSD product is. When you go into one of these sales deals the CEO should be told exactly TWO things: that you can solve his problem, and how much it's going to cost. Everything else in the presentation is simply a lead in for these two things. The problem is that too many people that do these kinds of presentations don't understand that what they are selling is themselves. They think that "I'm going to try to go into that there customer and sell them a new server" Nowhere in their thought processes is the idea that they are there to find out what the customers problem is exactly, and sell THEMSELVES as the solution to it. I've seen a lot of these presentations and been in a lot where the customer tells the presenter what his problem is and the first words out of the presenters mouth is 'well you need a new server' It's like you might as well leave then. The presenter should be saying 'well you don't have enough space/you don't have enough speed/ your network has no virus protection/you don't have a database/etc/etc/etc and WE CAN FIX that. In short, the presenter needs to regurgitate the customers problem, and tell the customer they can fix it, and how much it is gonna cost. Period. It's not the presenters job to tell the customer how they are going to fix it - if the customer knew that, the presenter wouldn't even be there. > Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I > bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do > only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical > merit alone. > A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have never done consulting before and are just starting out. The var/integrator/consultancy market has a certain amount of attrition every year, companies form and break up every year. There's always new people coming into the market and old people leaving it. Some of those new consultants are going to have prior FreeBSD experience and will want to leverage that. The support they need from the FreeBSD Project is stuff like my book, good tech support assistance, and overall a strong stable OS. Ted From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 09:52:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C66616A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:52:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp108.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp108.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AEB743D49 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:52:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nicholas_wieland@yahoo.it) Received: from unknown (HELO pixie.subbacultcha.home) (nicholas?wieland@81.211.178.17 with login) by smtp108.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2004 09:52:01 -0000 Received: by pixie.subbacultcha.home (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 51F217D38; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:52:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:52:08 +0100 From: Nicholas Wieland To: John-Mark Gurney Message-ID: <20041229095208.GB803@pixie.subbacultcha.home> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE-p2 X-Crypto: GnuPG/1.2.6 http://www.gnupg.org/ X-GPG-Key-ID: 0DAA3925 X-GPG-Fingerprint: D3C2 DB93 DF6A 601B A32B CEB1 4020 7E71 0DAA 3925 cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nicholas Wieland List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:52:02 -0000 - John-Mark Gurney : > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > > Then we should create a website www.freebsdforcxo.com and use that. I think it's not a bad idea at all to have a different "pure-advocacy" website, something like advocacy.freebsd.org, Postgres has something similar and it's quite useful. > The problem is that the base FreeBSD.org website should remain as it > is. It is targeted to technical people who might not be running a GUI > web browser and want quick access to information. Like using accesskeys instead of a mouse ? I'm following the discussion and the only thing I see is people complaining without knowing the "medium" we're talking about, but "arguing" that the new web site will be crap for some reason (usually the wrong one). > Making it more pretty to sell, while destroying the usability for 99% > of the audience is not a solution. Agreed, but nobody wants to "destroy the usability", first of all because the current website is unusable (content is badly organized, the layout is inside the markup), second because I bet that someone here is good at web programming/design as someone else in developing an operating system :) I'm redesigning the web site, I'm not using Flash or some other crap, if the redesign performs bad on Lynx or Links I will consider it a bug that needs a fix, while correcting everything that in my opinion needs to be corrected on the current website. To be honest I think that this iperconservative attitude is useless, it would be good to have technical comments when people comes up with something usable. I speak for me, and *I* will be pleased to discuss every issue on my redesign. HAND, ngw -- checking for life_signs in -lKenny... no Oh my god, make (1) killed Kenny ! You, bastards ! nicholas_wieland-at-yahoo-dot-it From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 14:40:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D0F16A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:40:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A9943D55 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:40:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBTEeSQf060080 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:40:28 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBTEeSso060079; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:40:28 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:40:28 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <200412291440.iBTEeSso060079@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, David Adam Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67EBB16A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:36:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from www.freebsd.org (www.freebsd.org [216.136.204.117]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CEBB43D2F for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:36:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nobody@FreeBSD.org) Received: from www.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBTEaNnQ013238 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:36:23 GMT (envelope-from nobody@www.freebsd.org) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by www.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBTEaMbH013204; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:36:22 GMT (envelope-from nobody) Message-Id: <200412291436.iBTEaMbH013204@www.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:36:22 GMT From: David Adam To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: www-2.3 Subject: www/75612: Website /support.sgml involves indirect linking in CVS section X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:40:28 -0000 >Number: 75612 >Category: www >Synopsis: Website /support.sgml involves indirect linking in CVS section >Confidential: no >Severity: non-critical >Priority: low >Responsible: freebsd-www >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: change-request >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Wed Dec 29 14:40:27 GMT 2004 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: David Adam >Release: FreeBSD-5.3 >Organization: University Computer Club, UWA >Environment: CYGWIN_NT-5.1 owl 1.5.12(0.116/4/2) 2004-11-10 08:34 i686 unknown unknown Cygwin (hey, you don't need a BSD machine to do WWW!) >Description: The descriptions of the various methods of obtaining source from the CVS repository at http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#cvs contain links in the first three items that point to an intermediary page which then links to the pages describing the actual methods in question. The attached diff streamlines this process (from looking at the source, it appears that syncing.sgml in the Handbook was broken up at some stage, and these links weren't updated to reflect that). >How-To-Repeat: - >Fix: (My second submitted diff, and my first one within WWW... it appears from my first message tonight that the web form eats my formatting. Apologies.) --- support.sgml.orig 2004-12-29 22:21:28.885320000 +0800 +++ support.sgml 2004-12-29 22:24:42.283412800 +0800 @@ -286,17 +286,17 @@ it, you may choose any one of following options:

    -
  • cvsup if you are looking +
  • cvsup if you are looking for on-demand, low overhead access using a custom utility (written in Modula-3 no less).
    • -
  • anoncvs +
  • anoncvs if you are looking for on-demand access that has higher overhead than cvsup (in terms of wall time and bytes transferred) but is easier to use for checking out small pieces of the tree and requires nothing more than the cvs tools already bundled with FreeBSD.
    • -
  • CTM if you are looking for +
  • CTM if you are looking for very low overhead, batch-mode access (basically, patches through email).
    • >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 17:31:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3199C16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:31:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B3043D2D; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:31:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from blackend@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (blackend@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBTHVjBY081014; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:31:45 GMT (envelope-from blackend@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from blackend@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBTHVjL7081010; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:31:45 GMT (envelope-from blackend) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:31:45 GMT From: Marc Fonvieille Message-Id: <200412291731.iBTHVjL7081010@freefall.freebsd.org> To: zanchey@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au, blackend@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: www/75612: Website /support.sgml involves indirect linking in CVS section X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:31:46 -0000 Synopsis: Website /support.sgml involves indirect linking in CVS section State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: blackend State-Changed-When: Wed Dec 29 17:31:22 GMT 2004 State-Changed-Why: Fixed, thanks. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=75612 From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:11:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E73816A4CF; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:11:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsdmall.com (ns1.freebsdmall.com [69.50.233.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E605F43D53; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:11:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from murray@freebsdmall.com) Received: by mail.freebsdmall.com (Postfix, from userid 2074) id A444C1CC61; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:21:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:21:19 -0800 From: Murray Stokely To: Chris Zumbrunn Message-ID: <20041229182119.GB90957@freebsdmall.com> References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20041227205328.GB25424@daemon.li> <55EB760A-586F-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55EB760A-586F-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/0E451F7D X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: E2CA 411D DD44 53FD BB4B 3CB5 B4D7 10A2 0E45 1F7D cc: Josef El-Rayes cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:11:56 -0000 On Tue, Dec 28, 2004 at 02:25:19AM +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > >looks very interesting, is the grey border, > >which carries the links to subcategories, > >under the headline image an image or created via css? > > Could be either. CSS would be better - but an image would maybe be > easier/quicker to implement. The grey bar could also be a background > image in a table cell. Eventually, it certainly should be CSS (just > like everything else). The top navigation bar does look very nice, but we've still got the very ugly orangeish vertical boxes on either side of the main page. There are too many links for one thing, so I imagine a large number of the sublinks on the left hand side should just go away. Is there any chance you can try to keep working with this design and improve the presentation of the links currently in the left hand navigation bar on the main page? - Murray From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:23:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB8F16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:23:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from eddie.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325EA43D1D; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:23:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@eddie.nitro.dk) Received: by eddie.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FA61119CD9; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:23:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:23:06 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Chris Zumbrunn Message-ID: <20041229182306.GD69078@eddie.nitro.dk> References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mJm6k4Vb/yFcL9ZU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:23:09 -0000 --mJm6k4Vb/yFcL9ZU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004.12.27 21:04:14 +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > In the spirit of... >=20 > On Dec 24, 2004, at 1:00 AM, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: >=20 > >If somebody seriously want to do something for an improved website, I > >think people should come up with a mockup of what they think a better > >website would look like and post it to the www@ (and perhaps the > >advocacy@) list. Just talking about it won't change anything (as the > >mail archives shows plenty of examples of)... >=20 > First Page: > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif >=20 > On other pages, where appropriate: > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif >=20 > An even more minimalist approach could be taken by just changing two=20 > existing images and adding two lines to the current CSS styles,=20 > yielding 95% of what the above screenshots show. First, I think it's great you actually did some work on this. I actually hadn't expected anything to come out of this thread :-). I think the "More Power To Serve" text should just be removed, but other than that I really like the look-and-feel of that grey bar. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --mJm6k4Vb/yFcL9ZU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFB0vYKh9pcDSc1mlERAuxAAKDLWGE3LkJYI9m9nPPJ0LQZPjL46ACfUoX7 g55OCQCkcYGeBOnctALdGjc= =GGBC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mJm6k4Vb/yFcL9ZU-- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:30:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3AE16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:30:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from eddie.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F311C43D5D; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:30:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@eddie.nitro.dk) Received: by eddie.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 36AB0119CD9; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:30:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:30:55 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Murray Stokely Message-ID: <20041229183054.GE69078@eddie.nitro.dk> References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20041227205328.GB25424@daemon.li> <55EB760A-586F-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20041229182119.GB90957@freebsdmall.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="10jrOL3x2xqLmOsH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041229182119.GB90957@freebsdmall.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Josef El-Rayes Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:30:56 -0000 --10jrOL3x2xqLmOsH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004.12.29 10:21:19 -0800, Murray Stokely wrote: > On Tue, Dec 28, 2004 at 02:25:19AM +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > >looks very interesting, is the grey border, > > >which carries the links to subcategories, > > >under the headline image an image or created via css? > >=20 > > Could be either. CSS would be better - but an image would maybe be=20 > > easier/quicker to implement. The grey bar could also be a background=20 > > image in a table cell. Eventually, it certainly should be CSS (just=20 > > like everything else). >=20 > The top navigation bar does look very nice, but we've still got the > very ugly orangeish vertical boxes on either side of the main page. But if you remove the orange boxes something has to replace them... > There are too many links for one thing, so I imagine a large number of > the sublinks on the left hand side should just go away. Is there any > chance you can try to keep working with this design and improve the > presentation of the links currently in the left hand navigation bar on > the main page? That is actually exactly what I have been looking into, removing redundant stuff on the front page. My work-in-progress is at http://simon.nitro.dk/freebsd/webexp/ , though this is still far from complete. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --10jrOL3x2xqLmOsH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFB0vfeh9pcDSc1mlERArcSAKCE2iLx8oOK14/ZhfMtV29gIoeVGACgitpy n6GaDBZbFUr6vLvEKUmqnsU= =MdNJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --10jrOL3x2xqLmOsH-- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:40:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E7D16A4CF; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C2043D54; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBTIen84089866; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:40:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D2FB92.9020508@401.cx> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:46:42 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:55 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- From: >> owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger >> 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: >> Simon Burke Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual >> Identity: Outdated? >> >> >> Simon Burke wrote: [snip] >> >>>> 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of >>>> the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. >>>> Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight >>>> to the point. But >> >> a redesign >> >>>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- >>>> without being ugly. >>> >>> >>> Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its >>> supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of >>> people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>> dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and >>> easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If >>> the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people >>> who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but >>> either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to >>> look at all the nice pretty sites. >> >> This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand >> the problem. > > > Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD > integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand > the problem. > > >> Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all >> the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros >> seems to have today. > > > That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like > it because it works better than most commercial operating systems > let alone most operating systems. "The" reason? Like there was only one reason to like an os? I like FreeBSD due to its lack of bells and whistles, but I also like it due to its stability, performance, ease of use and license, among many other reasons. Maybe I should have made that more clear, I do not wish to come across as a guy that favours an os based on one reason alone. >> But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve >> the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom >> full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD >> in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts >> about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast >> performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look >> at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest >> linux advocate instead. > > Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle > about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need > done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't > lock me in to you' I think we have a missunderstanding here. I already work for a big corporation. When I said that I was trying to sell FreeBSD, I meant that I was trying to get the company that I work for to chose FreeBSD over some other product. Im not a consultant of any kind, Im a fulltime employed technician trying to keep my employers network up and running. > FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. > Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C > and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. > > The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO > and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source > provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm > locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that > your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no > competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I > trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am > ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or > daughter, and even then I may not. > > You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk > thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't > understand what your selling, they don't understand how to > integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand > their current system. As I explained earlier, Im not selling anything. We are several technicians at my company, some of us prefer BSD while others prefer linux, windows, sun or whatever the flavour of the day is. Everytime we get a new bunch of servers or a new task needs to be done, there is a religious war before we decide what os to use. Most of the time, the board wants a say in decisions like this, and BSD almost always loses this, due to a very unproffesional image. Since the company already has the expertise inhouse, the hardware has been ordered and everything is paid, they dont give a shit about price. When I tell them that BSD can do everything they want and do it good, they listen. When I tell them that its free, they listen but they dont really care. When the linux guys makes exactly the same claims and also is able to back it up with proffesional looking websites with success-stories cluttered all over them, they usually decide to go with linux and goes to lunch. [snip] >> We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to >> be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do >> something about it! >> > I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue > that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite > obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. As I said, Im not a consultant or anything, Im just an employee. I do not have a website of my own. >> Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big >> corporation. >> > Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here "Big" as in 6000 employees spread across a few european countries. > but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees > in an office building, then even you must know that the check > signers in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. > Most of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales > ranks, and not through the technology ranks. These are people who > 25 years ago were partying their way through a business degree in > some university and the only thing that they really know well is > how to sell their companies products. That's why they work at a > big company, didn't you know? Deep down they know they are > incompetents and they are too scared to go out on their own even > when they could make triple the money if they really knew what they > were doing. > > They don't really understand anything about technology > infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high > school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. > And the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that > in business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' > aspect of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled > into their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be > interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there > being any such thing as 'key employees' > > Why do you think that the current federal government administration > just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new > economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to > new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that > comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays big > business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing > such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the > current debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the > amount of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. > Very few of these idiots are anything more than closet control > freaks. > > To be successful in todays market you have to be able to > individualize your products to what the customers in the market > want, and there is no way for a big business to do that without > really drastically increasing the complexity of it's business > workflow. Customers today want you to stock 100 variations of your > product and build all of them to order, and they want it for the > same price that 20 years ago they would buy the cookie-cutter > version you could sell them for. The only way to do that is to > integrate technology completely in every last speck of business > process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of key > technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned > this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is > going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants > to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what > the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it > for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get > the hell out' > > Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these > CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big > words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and > even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is > something that runs computers like winders is. And rather than > telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server > is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast > and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get them sold on the idea > that your providing a -solution to their problems- not that your > providing them some freebsd system that is real cool and does > something they are pretty fuzzy about exactly what. If they start > asking you exactly how your going to do this don't get sidetracked > into a technologists conversation. I advocate a more proffesional looking image, and you shoot me down and then tells me I need more bells and whistles in my presentations? Im confused! My arguments to improve FreeBSD's image are almost identical to the ones you listed above. For all I care the firstpage of freebsd.org could be a big picture of Schwartznegger with a BSD tattoe on his biceps, but try to suggest even a change of font on the site and people freak out. > > In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson > that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These > CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to > be finished building the new system, who is going to train the end > users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money are > they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money they > are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should be > figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even be > talking about operating systems until you have sold them on > yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection to > them, then they should like you enough so that they want you to > build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and > after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. > I could be wrong, but I think we are suggesting basically the same thing, just on different places. You seem to think that I should cover up FreeBSD's amateurish look by creating a protective shell of fancy words and presentations. I suggest that we put the energy on actually fixing the image, and thereby eliminating the need of a shell. Unfortunally, I have seen this discussion go down so many times by now that I already knows how it ends. The people that tries to make a difference is scared away by the "dont touch my website" crowd. I will continue to advocate the use of FreeBSD, with or without help from the official website, but Im still hoping that someday maybe people will realize that not all decisions are made based upon the quality of the source, but on general appearance as well. -- R From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:44:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0FD16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:44:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABE343D2F; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:44:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBTIip84089914; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:44:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D2FC84.5000909@401.cx> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:50:44 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John-Mark Gurney References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:44:54 -0000 John-Mark Gurney wrote: [snip] > > Then we should create a website www.freebsdforcxo.com and use that. > The problem is that the base FreeBSD.org website should remain as it > is. It is targeted to technical people who might not be running a GUI > web browser and want quick access to information. > > Making it more pretty to sell, while destroying the usability for 99% > of the audience is not a solution. > Who said it cant be both? Why does people assume that an upgrade to freebsd.org would make it less usefull? Look at sun.com, they have a site that looks professional, is easy to use and targeted to tech-savvy users as well as corporate suits. -- R From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 18:54:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39AC616A4CF for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:54:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail4.speakeasy.net (mail4.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F8043D39 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:54:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 1270 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2004 18:54:33 -0000 Received: from gate.funkthat.com (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Dec 2004 18:54:33 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (ktgbsh@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])iBTIsWGH048898; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBTIsVQL048897; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:54:31 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-ID: <20041229185431.GO19624@funkthat.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> <41D2FC84.5000909@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41D2FC84.5000909@401.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:54:34 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote this message on Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 19:50 +0100: > Look at sun.com, they have a site that looks professional, is easy to > use and targeted to tech-savvy users as well as corporate suits. Actually, I think sun.com is a bad example. It it not targeted to the technical audience... In all the times I've had to find docs and other related materials, it was always too many clicks away from the main page to start getting information.. (of course, once you learn, you go to docs.sun.com, or some other site, instead of www.sun.com)... and I usually end up breaking down to use search to find it... :( As long as we keep the left side bar, I'll be happy... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 19:17:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CDA16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:17:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C53B43D60; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:17:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041229191744i9100rftlee>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:17:49 +0000 Message-ID: <41D302D3.1090600@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:17:39 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Simon L. Nielsen" References: <20041224000041.GD22614@eddie.nitro.dk> <7B69B4ED-5842-11D9-BA41-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20041229182306.GD69078@eddie.nitro.dk> In-Reply-To: <20041229182306.GD69078@eddie.nitro.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was: FreeBSD's Visual Identity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:17:51 -0000 Simon L. Nielsen wrote: >On 2004.12.27 21:04:14 +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > >>In the spirit of... >> >>On Dec 24, 2004, at 1:00 AM, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: >> >> >> >>>If somebody seriously want to do something for an improved website, I >>>think people should come up with a mockup of what they think a better >>>website would look like and post it to the www@ (and perhaps the >>>advocacy@) list. Just talking about it won't change anything (as the >>>mail archives shows plenty of examples of)... >>> >>> >>First Page: >>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1.gif >> >>On other pages, where appropriate: >>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2.gif >> >>An even more minimalist approach could be taken by just changing two >>existing images and adding two lines to the current CSS styles, >>yielding 95% of what the above screenshots show. >> >> > > > Excellent!, This is a step in the right direction. >First, I think it's great you actually did some work on this. I >actually hadn't expected anything to come out of this thread :-). > >I think the "More Power To Serve" text should just be removed, but >other than that I really like the look-and-feel of that grey bar. > > Or something like that, I think changing the slogan is a whole project in an of itself ;-) The slogan came from beatie and that fact that he was a "daemon" daemon: [Middle English, from Late Latin daemn, from Latin, spirit, from Greek daimn, divine power. See d- in Indo-European Roots.] 1. (in ancient Greek belief) a divinity or supernatural being of a nature between gods and humans. 1. mythology demigod: mythological being that is part-god and part-human 2. mythology guardian spirit: a guardian spirit 2. A spirit which guards a place or takes care of or helps a person. n. inward spirit; personality; genius. daemonic, a. Computer Science. A program or process that sits idly in the background until it is invoked to perform its task. /day'mn/ or /dee'mn/ n. [from the mythological meaning, later rationalized as the acronym `Disk And Execution MONitor'] A program that is not invoked explicitly, but lies dormant waiting for some condition(s) to occur. The idea is that the perpetrator of the condition need not be aware that a daemon is lurking (though often a program will commit an action only because it knows that it will implicitly invoke a daemon). For example, under ITS writing a file on the LPT spooler's directory would invoke the spooling daemon, which would then print the file. The advantage is that programs wanting (in this example) files printed need neither compete for access to nor understand any idiosyncrasies of the LPT. They simply enter their implicit requests and let the daemon decide what to do with them. Daemons are usually spawned automatically by the system, and may either live forever or be regenerated at intervals. Daemon and demon are often used interchangeably, but seem to have distinct connotations. The term `daemon' was introduced to computing by CTSS people (who pronounced it /dee'mon/) and used it to refer to what ITS called a dragon; the prototype was a program called DAEMON that automatically made tape backups of the file system. Although the meaning and the pronunciation have drifted, we think this glossary reflects current (2000) usage. - http://www.onelook.com/ From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 19:43:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E5B116A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:43:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF11843D54; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:43:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041229194347i9100rfviee>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:43:48 +0000 Message-ID: <41D308EE.2060101@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:43:42 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John-Mark Gurney References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <20041228184712.GN19624@funkthat.com> <41D2FC84.5000909@401.cx> <20041229185431.GO19624@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20041229185431.GO19624@funkthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:43:49 -0000 John-Mark Gurney wrote: >Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote this message on Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 19:50 +0100: > > >>Look at sun.com, they have a site that looks professional, is easy to >>use and targeted to tech-savvy users as well as corporate suits. >> >> > >Actually, I think sun.com is a bad example. It it not targeted to >the technical audience... In all the times I've had to find docs and >other related materials, it was always too many clicks away from the >main page to start getting information.. (of course, once you learn, >you go to docs.sun.com, or some other site, instead of www.sun.com)... >and I usually end up breaking down to use search to find it... :( > >As long as we keep the left side bar, I'll be happy... > > > The original reason I gave sun.com out was for the color scheme's etc. they have, I would never want the freebsd website as bloated as that :-) From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 20:14:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83BE16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:14:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4049743D39; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:14:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041229201409i9100rfrjse>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:14:09 +0000 Message-ID: <41D3100C.7070709@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:14:04 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: getting the attn of core X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:14:10 -0000 I think we got the attn of core, yes? M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> > Nikolas Britton writes: > : M. Warner Losh wrote: > : : >In message: <41D16A0F.4000909@nbritton.org> > : > Nikolas Britton writes: > : >: Unless your a member of core or have been at one time your voice > is : >: unheard... > : > > : >Clearly you have no idea about how core works. I've read every single > : >message in this thread, but have thought it better to let it run its > : >coarse to see what the consensus of the community was. That's clearly > : >listening to the voices of all those concerned. > : > > : >Warner > : > > : > : > > : I was generalizing. but now that I got your ear what is the core > team : doing about PR and Martketing, and why is the "Public Relations > & : Corporate Liaison" seat open? see the "FreeBSD's Visual Identity: > : Outdated?" and freebsd foundation threads on -questions for more info. > > We are well aware of the issues here, and have talked about them in > some depth. We'd planned on launching our efforts to fix the > problems, if any truly exist, after the first of the year when people > are back from their holidays. Thats good to know, sounds like some progress... keep us informed and I'm willing to help if needed. > Also, there's never been a PR seat, so > to complain that it is open is like complaining that the village idiot > seat is open... That critism is unwarranted. Ok (sorry), then there is the first thing to fix, delete it from this page: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributors/staff-who.html > In the past, PR has > been done by the cdrom companies, but their monitary incentives for > doing that is now way down since cdrom sales have dropped so much over > the years. The FreeBSD Foundation is an independent entity, over > which core has no control. > > Warner > > > _______________________________________________ freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 21:17:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EBF16A4D4; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F6643D5A; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041229211733i92002ah50e>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:35 +0000 Message-ID: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:17:29 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Simon Burke cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:36 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >>nbritton wrote: gain this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I >>bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do >>only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical >>merit alone. >> >> >> > >A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience >isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a >consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they >can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have >never done consulting before and >are just starting out. > > > > This is one of main point I'm trying to make in all of these talks. How are they ever going to know it's out there and when they do make first contact don't you think we should greet them in a professional manner? Sorry if I mangled the message a bit when I cut out all the fluff. From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 29 21:42:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AAC16A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:42:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from stephanie.unixdaemons.com (stephanie.unixdaemons.com [67.18.111.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51A543D2F for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:42:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bmilekic@technokratis.com) Received: from stephanie.unixdaemons.com (bmilekic@localhost.unixdaemons.com [127.0.0.1])iBTLgKDP052427; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bmilekic@localhost) by stephanie.unixdaemons.com (8.13.2/8.12.1/Submit) id iBTLgK7l052426; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:42:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bmilekic@technokratis.com) X-Authentication-Warning: stephanie.unixdaemons.com: bmilekic set sender to bmilekic@technokratis.com using -f Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:42:20 -0500 From: Bosko Milekic To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041229214220.GA50234@technokratis.com> References: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:42:23 -0000 [trimmed everything BUT freebsd-www, it's absolutely RIDICULOUS that this appeared on freebsd-arch. Read the charters.] You guys should stop discussing this, as both arguments are completely irrelevant. Whether or not you think the website look and feel is adequate is subjective and you're never going to agree on its adequacy. If you _don't_ think the website is nice looking, what you need to do is grab the website source and build a new one. But what you also need to understand is that this is not as easy as just building a website with nice stylesheets and making it look all pretty. It's also about functionality. The current website has a structure which is more or less functional for the vast majority of developers (there is a lot of stuff that is rebuilt periodically to capture new modifications). Remember that a large part of the content lives IN CVS TOO and has to be clean and manageable from the developer's perspective. So, by all means, if you can keep the functionality and structure we're all used to (within reason), then go ahead and build something that looks better _and_ still works, and maybe it'll end up being adopted. If you just come up with a new look and design, that's hardly good enough to justify mucking all the content-management we have going on right now. As for FreeBSD, it's not really a "product," per-se, that needs to be sold in the same manner as you would sell, say, a webserver appliance. FreeBSD is a platform that many people build and expand for their purposes for various technical, economical, and/or legal reasons. Therefore, the website is hardly its main selling point, which explains why no one else has yet invested the effort in redoing its look (it's not worth the trouble). Dealing with not breaking the functionality and structure is too much of a burden for the vast majority of developers. -Bosko On Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 03:17:29PM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >>nbritton wrote: gain this is are target market; consultants, integrators, > >>vars, etc. I > >>bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do > >>only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical > >>merit alone. > >> > >> > >> > > > >A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience > >isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a > >consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they > >can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have > >never done consulting before and > >are just starting out. > > > > > > > > > > This is one of main point I'm trying to make in all of these talks. How > are they ever going to know it's out there and when they do make first > contact don't you think we should greet them in a professional manner? > > > Sorry if I mangled the message a bit when I cut out all the fluff. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Bosko Milekic bmilekic@technokratis.com bmilekic@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 00:21:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E27416A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:21:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A285D43D45 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:21:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041230002112i92002agere>; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:21:12 +0000 Message-ID: <41D349F3.6020205@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:21:07 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Tools of the trade on the *nix platform? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:21:14 -0000 I'm a bit perplexed at what tools I should look at for web/html authoring stuff as I just (finally, been playing with BSD since 4.7) switched all the main computers around me to FreeBSD (Gnome 2.8 and XFce 4.2.... GTK2) from Windows when 5.3 was released. ------------------- For generating layout and large amounts of code I'd use Dreamweaver or some other popular WYSIWYG editor. For generating CSS code I'd use Bradbury's TopStyle. For images etc. I would use Photoshop, PSP, or Gimp but mainly Photoshop. I would use Allaire's HomeSite, programmers editor (jEdit, DevPHP) with syntax highlighting (SQL, PHP, Perl, HTML, Etc.), or just notepad to then make changes, clean up, fine tune, etc. For code clean up I would use HTML Tidy and the W3C Validation Service and for testing I'd use Gecko (mainly Mozilla or Firefox), Opera, and IE. ---------------------- Can anyone recommend some tools for photo/image editing besides gimp? How does one test against IE? WYSIWYG (X)HTML Editor/Generators? CSS Generators? Thanks, Nikolas From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 00:32:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8668D16A4CE; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from schlepper.zs64.net (schlepper.zs64.net [212.12.50.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0263643D2D; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (schlepper [212.12.50.230]) by schlepper.zs64.net (8.13.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id iBU0WBAE000914; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:32:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) In-Reply-To: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> References: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3D6982C4-59FA-11D9-8D31-000A95C893E4@lassitu.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stefan Bethke Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:32:09 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:29 -0000 It was fun while it lasted. Please stop. If you have to, move this to chat. -- Stefan Bethke Fon +49 170 346 0140 From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 14:02:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B869616A4D0 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:02:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from daemon.li (daemon.li [213.203.244.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49EF143D45 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:02:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1000) by daemon.li with local; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:02:07 +0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:02:07 +0000 From: Josef El-Rayes To: Bosko Milekic Message-ID: <20041230140207.GC16248@daemon.li> References: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> <20041229214220.GA50234@technokratis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_daemon.li-17625-1104415327-0001-2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041229214220.GA50234@technokratis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Simon Burke cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:02:10 -0000 This is a MIME-formatted message. If you see this text it means that your E-mail software does not support MIME-formatted messages. --=_daemon.li-17625-1104415327-0001-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bosko Milekic : >=20 > [trimmed everything BUT freebsd-www, it's absolutely RIDICULOUS that > this appeared on freebsd-arch. Read the charters.]=20 >=20 > You guys should stop discussing this, as both arguments are completely > irrelevant. >=20 > Whether or not you think the website look and feel is adequate is > subjective and you're never going to agree on its adequacy. [...] thanks bosko, this is _so_ true. -josef --=20 Josef El-Rayes (__) Email: josef@daemon.li \\\'',)=20 Web: http://daemon.li/ \/ \ ^ FreeBSD Security Team .\._/_) --=_daemon.li-17625-1104415327-0001-2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBQdQKXlnFItmnnbU8AQJxoAgAua/mLgZNA14D4nXA3WiTkRSE2ipKNw8h IHnll6YSZfHIUAlvkqcJ/n5KiGrkqd4P+EuBt8feimV/fwALLR64LPI5vrRM1+2/ Dq/N3NikluZtq5b4FiXWH1C2IPZVe/tp1FrFZjsyDC83kmKw9TI05QizBH+SVRqm X0Co8IX7+3o1OyjpGqGxZxrFK0pwZwbQIgR67f79pCQJfSNe3Yvo+UNoU+OULacH 7I+tMyHWHxa6nJjBL50LRLXaQ4ftgWJVvqIJKgMbrgSGvxwEroRp8si/PemZasy0 gowU2pvpO2BhLXwlTTjk/LMLWVb2swzLO2OvAHiSE2iBApb3Zseuzg== =RqyU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_daemon.li-17625-1104415327-0001-2-- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 14:07:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ADC216A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:07:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from daemon.li (daemon.li [213.203.244.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9154343D55 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:07:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1000) by daemon.li with local; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:07:27 +0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:07:27 +0000 From: Josef El-Rayes To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041230140727.GD16248@daemon.li> References: <41D349F3.6020205@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_daemon.li-17660-1104415647-0001-2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41D349F3.6020205@nbritton.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tools of the trade on the *nix platform? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:07:29 -0000 This is a MIME-formatted message. If you see this text it means that your E-mail software does not support MIME-formatted messages. --=_daemon.li-17660-1104415647-0001-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nikolas Britton : > I'm a bit perplexed at what tools I should look at for web/html=20 > authoring stuff as I just (finally, been playing with BSD since 4.7)=20 > switched all the main computers around me to FreeBSD (Gnome 2.8 and XFce= =20 > 4.2.... GTK2) from Windows when 5.3 was released. > ------------------- > For generating layout and large amounts of code I'd use Dreamweaver or=20 > some other popular WYSIWYG editor. > For generating CSS code I'd use Bradbury's TopStyle. you dont need these wysiwyg editors, they create bad code. write the code yourself. the only help you need is an editor that has proper syntax highlighting and helps you with indenting. i use vi(m). i heard emacs is good too. -josef --=20 Josef El-Rayes (__) Email: josef@daemon.li \\\'',)=20 Web: http://daemon.li/ \/ \ ^ FreeBSD Security Team .\._/_) --=_daemon.li-17660-1104415647-0001-2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBQdQLn1nFItmnnbU8AQLpqAf/dlK0DS7CwIyyQZ/2YgiCREAX/I7o5KcU 8Lk76GxIy38cgZ9xPZAneuSAX9sSRp13xRwG6EA+uCVnCDUqYQcsienbpzL8ytey K8bGygWkX+PQEb2ZatQ5ih6IgBWCDyiG/RIrRpB4dwSuet2o3rPhKvC9g4Qq5FCJ hZu8Pup1xCqrLXrFivAo0dagwOWFdG+q8E9TjbRn61Ac8Y7RhXxCPkV6vBGk8r19 mh4A17wCaR5Quz69SUd+J42YzxST5GFAJyir8871GDQVZQrlNz/K6LqwkiOKlBX4 E/oG112vOA7I70b8v0Y5/BFGOICDpbS2mS1zY7F4IrdvmfEmRdZeIA== =9qjd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_daemon.li-17660-1104415647-0001-2-- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 14:29:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27DF16A4CE; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:29:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710CB43D2D; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:29:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041230142923i9100rfkhfe>; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:29:23 +0000 Message-ID: <41D410BE.2010505@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:29:18 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josef El-Rayes References: <41D349F3.6020205@nbritton.org> <20041230140727.GD16248@daemon.li> In-Reply-To: <20041230140727.GD16248@daemon.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Tools of the trade on the *nix platform? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:29:25 -0000 Josef El-Rayes wrote: >Nikolas Britton : > > >>I'm a bit perplexed at what tools I should look at for web/html >>authoring stuff as I just (finally, been playing with BSD since 4.7) >>switched all the main computers around me to FreeBSD (Gnome 2.8 and XFce >>4.2.... GTK2) from Windows when 5.3 was released. >>------------------- >>For generating layout and large amounts of code I'd use Dreamweaver or >>some other popular WYSIWYG editor. >>For generating CSS code I'd use Bradbury's TopStyle. >> >> > >you dont need these wysiwyg editors, they create bad code. >write the code yourself. the only help you need is an editor >that has proper syntax highlighting and helps you with indenting. >i use vi(m). i heard emacs is good too. > >-josef > > > lol, I knew someone was going to say that! I like perl, what's that tell you? :-) Most of the time I do use a programmers editor but for large amounts of code generation and layout (Like starting a brand new site or playing with layout ideas) you can't beat it! As far as bad code, the only code thats bad code is one that doesn't validate@W3C. did you read my whole post?, guess I should have started with the programmers editor and ended with the wysiwyg. From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 14:35:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9064916A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:35:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from daemon.li (daemon.li [213.203.244.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF82043D2F for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:35:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1000) by daemon.li with local; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:35:36 +0000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:35:36 +0000 From: Josef El-Rayes To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041230143536.GF16248@daemon.li> References: <41D349F3.6020205@nbritton.org> <20041230140727.GD16248@daemon.li> <41D410BE.2010505@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_daemon.li-17921-1104417336-0001-2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41D410BE.2010505@nbritton.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i cc: freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Tools of the trade on the *nix platform? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 14:35:37 -0000 This is a MIME-formatted message. If you see this text it means that your E-mail software does not support MIME-formatted messages. --=_daemon.li-17921-1104417336-0001-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nikolas Britton : > I like perl, what's that tell you? :-) Most of the time I do use a=20 > programmers editor but for large amounts of code generation and=20 > layout (Like starting a brand new site or playing with layout=20 > ideas) you can't beat it! As far as bad code, the only code thats=20 > bad code is one that doesn't validate@W3C. did you read my whole=20 > post?, guess I should have started with the programmers editor and=20 > ended with the wysiwyg. its just my opinion. validate code does not mean it is 'good code'. when i see something like

    its valid, but it unnecessariliy blows up the html file. and wysiwyg editors tend to create such things, at least when i used to have them in use (5 years back). creating code out of clicking around with the mouse is a non-trivial task and this is why none of these kind of software creates code as good as one you write manually with your hand. when i play with layout ideas i take a pencil and a sheet of paper. and then i turn it into code, with my favourite editor. thats the game. but, there are wysiwig editors for freebsd. just take a look in the ports collection (bluefish and quanta i remember, but i am not sure). greets, josef --=20 Josef El-Rayes (__) Email: josef@daemon.li \\\'',)=20 Web: http://daemon.li/ \/ \ ^ FreeBSD Security Team .\._/_) --=_daemon.li-17921-1104417336-0001-2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBQdQSN1nFItmnnbU8AQKhxwgAn65OqjQ32XBIwdOu2hhlv3m7K+lSzMXk /Y/w4SNzmZBKPVcjhAulaUiO/tbj2lT6b2Dqt4b18JHY0iBFciflOsqwxo9tRxom I/lRdyWWtEhRQDRhn8qgHNutimqjR8FPumzRZXfckYCcZfzTzo2YHU9UyVOjlkBX LIFyff+QrriDbPHgGPVzgT1w2UYIZkdqkP3tWsgpyBP6kZRBGeDW9TsSG0uPqhnZ LaY0GXz0cCPPBxR0LWd1J7faRpiDP68JKI7TBs9kO9PxPJAfs9vp/Q4zvJCJ91+S oOgt00Nn5AthVnLFg1cDYne2ReotGBGF0zib0rA10GELIHzik70agw== =8Szh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_daemon.li-17921-1104417336-0001-2-- From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 30 15:45:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F274216A4CE; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:45:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B07243D3F; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:45:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041230154538i92002adjde>; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:45:39 +0000 Message-ID: <41D4229D.5020302@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:45:33 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josef El-Rayes References: <41D349F3.6020205@nbritton.org> <20041230140727.GD16248@daemon.li> <41D410BE.2010505@nbritton.org> <20041230143536.GF16248@daemon.li> In-Reply-To: <20041230143536.GF16248@daemon.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Tools of the trade on the *nix platform? X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:45:40 -0000 Josef El-Rayes wrote: >Nikolas Britton : > > >>I like perl, what's that tell you? :-) Most of the time I do use a >>programmers editor but for large amounts of code generation and >>layout (Like starting a brand new site or playing with layout >>ideas) you can't beat it! As far as bad code, the only code thats >>bad code is one that doesn't validate@W3C. did you read my whole >>post?, guess I should have started with the programmers editor and >>ended with the wysiwyg. >> >> > >its just my opinion. >validate code does not mean it is 'good code'. when i see >something like

    its valid, but it unnecessariliy >blows up the html file. and wysiwyg editors tend to create >such things, at least when i used to have them in use >(5 years back). > If you do things right in dreamweaver like set it to produce XHTML code and Cross Browser support the code is fairly clean. Alot of the time I just use it to make complex table layouts etc. and then do everything else by hand or something of the sorts. >creating code out of clicking around >with the mouse is a non-trivial task and this is why >none of these kind of software creates code as good as >one you write manually with your hand. > > Anyone remember Microsoft's word HTML export :-O talk about bad code. >when i play with layout ideas i take a pencil and a sheet >of paper. and then i turn it into code, with my favourite >editor. thats the game. > > Yea, It's fast doing it like that.... after you do that then you open up the wysiwig and in 10mins you have your code and the only thing left to do is clean it up and fine tune it by hand. >but, there are wysiwig editors for freebsd. just take >a look in the ports collection (bluefish and quanta >i remember, but i am not sure). > > Thanks, and TMTOWTDI ;-) From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 01:40:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C949E16A4CF for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:40:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B0743D48 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:40:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBV1eDDu047125 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:40:13 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBV1eDke047124; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:40:13 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:40:13 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <200412310140.iBV1eDke047124@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, Herve Quiroz Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A250116A4D0 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:31:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from arabica.esil.univ-mrs.fr (arabica.esil.univ-mrs.fr [139.124.41.108]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E897243D2F for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:31:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rv@arabica.esil.univ-mrs.fr) Received: from arabica.esil.univ-mrs.fr (localhost.esil.univ-mrs.fr [127.0.0.1])iBV1VoJ1071103 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:31:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from rv@arabica.esil.univ-mrs.fr) Received: (from rv@localhost) by arabica.esil.univ-mrs.fr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBV1Vneh071102; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:31:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from rv) Message-Id: <200412310131.iBV1Vneh071102@arabica.esil.univ-mrs.fr> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 02:31:50 +0100 (CET) From: Herve Quiroz To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: 3.113 Subject: www/75680: [PATCH] Update the ports HOWTO page from Java projet homepage X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Herve Quiroz List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:40:16 -0000 >Number: 75680 >Category: www >Synopsis: [PATCH] Update the ports HOWTO page from Java projet homepage >Confidential: no >Severity: non-critical >Priority: low >Responsible: freebsd-www >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: update >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Fri Dec 31 01:40:13 GMT 2004 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Herve Quiroz >Release: FreeBSD 5.3-STABLE i386 >Organization: >Environment: System: FreeBSD 5.3-STABLE #1: Mon Dec 6 04:02:19 CET 2004 i386 >Description: Now that the Java section of the Porter's handbook is relevant and up-to-date, the HOWTO ports page on the Java project homepage should reference it. >How-To-Repeat: >Fix: Index: howtoports.sgml =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/www/en/java/docs/howtoports.sgml,v retrieving revision 1.6 diff -u -r1.6 howtoports.sgml --- howtoports.sgml 18 Jun 2003 23:37:37 -0000 1.6 +++ howtoports.sgml 31 Dec 2004 01:23:31 -0000 @@ -11,19 +11,7 @@

    General instructions can be found in the FreeBSD Handbook, under Porting Applications. -

    For &java; ports, there are unofficial standards: -

    -    1) If it's a library then jar files go into:
-          /usr/local/share/java/classes/
-
-    2) If it's a stand-alone application then jar files go into:
-          /usr/local/share/java/<application-name>/
-        and  scripts to run it go into:
-          /usr/local/bin/
-
-    3) Documentation goes into:
-          /usr/local/share/doc/java/<application-name>/
-
    +

    For &java; ports, please refer to the Using Java section.

    The more ported applications we have, the better. >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 10:28:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD6D16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:28:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F142A43D46 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:28:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gerard-seibert@rcn.com) Received: from 207-237-110-41.c3-0.crm-ubr4.crm.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.110.41] helo=Gerard.rcn.com) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 1CkK0t-00009l-00 for www@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:28:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:28:07 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: Gerard Seibert To: www@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: X-X-Sender: beerstud@spamcop.net@mail.cesmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Broken Link X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Gerard Seibert List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:28:08 -0000 Regarding: timidity++-2.11.3_1 When I click on this lick < http://www.goice.co.jp/member/mo/timidity/ > I receive a DNS server error message. I have tried several times and always receive the same message. Thanks! Gerard Seibert gerard-seibert@rcn.com From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 11:15:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B4616A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:15:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525D943D46 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:15:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041231111508i9100rfsm7e>; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:15:08 +0000 Message-ID: <41D534B6.4040606@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 05:15:02 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041230) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gerard Seibert References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Broken Link X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:15:09 -0000 Gerard Seibert wrote: > Regarding: timidity++-2.11.3_1 > > When I click on this lick < http://www.goice.co.jp/member/mo/timidity/ > > I receive a DNS server error message. I have tried several times and > always receive the same message. > > Thanks! > Yea me too, but whats timidity and whats it have to do with the freebsd web site?........................ ooh, sorry I was about to bitch you out, good thing the first link I saw was freshports when I typed it into google :-) I assume your taking about timidity as in regards to the port in the ports system? you'll have to take that up with the port maintainer and/or the ports team (try the maintainer first). You can get that info from the ports Makefile: -----------------------Makefile------------------------------------------------- # New ports collection makefile for: TiMidity++ # Date created: 27 Feb 1999 # Whom: Yoichi Asai # # $FreeBSD: ports/audio/timidity++/Makefile,v 1.40 2003/10/11 14:36:37 krion Exp $ # PORTNAME= timidity++ PORTVERSION= 2.11.3 PORTREVISION= 1 CATEGORIES= audio MASTER_SITES= http://www.timidity.jp/dist/ DISTNAME= TiMidity++-${PORTVERSION} MAINTAINER?= yatt@luna2.org --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the mean time you can download the source tarball from here: http://www.onicos.com/staff/iz/timidity/dist/ and put it into /usr/ports/distfiles and then rerun make and stuff. Wail your at it tell him to update the port as TiMidity++ is currently at 2.13.3 From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 11:30:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7837616A4CF; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:30:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CD543D39; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:30:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brueffer@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (brueffer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBVBUEdL049324; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:30:14 GMT (envelope-from brueffer@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from brueffer@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBVBUDTR049320; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:30:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from brueffer) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:30:13 +0100 (CET) From: Christian Brueffer Message-Id: <200412311130.iBVBUDTR049320@freefall.freebsd.org> To: hq@freebsd.org, brueffer@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: www/75680: [PATCH] Update the ports HOWTO page from Java projet homepage X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:30:14 -0000 Synopsis: [PATCH] Update the ports HOWTO page from Java projet homepage State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: brueffer State-Changed-When: Fri Dec 31 12:29:42 CET 2004 State-Changed-Why: Committed a slightly corrected version, thanks! http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=75680 From owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 31 11:55:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-www@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E3816A4CE; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:55:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05BE43D2D; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:55:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brueffer@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (brueffer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBVBt3wc050897; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:55:03 GMT (envelope-from brueffer@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from brueffer@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBVBt3PE050893; Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:55:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from brueffer) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:55:03 +0100 (CET) From: Christian Brueffer Message-Id: <200412311155.iBVBt3PE050893@freefall.freebsd.org> To: rodrigc@crodrigues.org, brueffer@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: www/75475: Add freebsd-usb list to search page X-BeenThere: freebsd-www@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Project Webmasters List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:55:04 -0000 Synopsis: Add freebsd-usb list to search page State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: brueffer State-Changed-When: Fri Dec 31 12:53:24 CET 2004 State-Changed-Why: Committed. I used a description that is more consistent with the other ones. Thanks for the submission! http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=75475