From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 29 03:55:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54042106568A for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 03:55:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rcoleman@criticalmagic.com) Received: from smtp-auth.no-ip.com (smtp-auth.no-ip.com [204.16.252.95]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0D58FC0C for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 03:55:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rcoleman@criticalmagic.com) X-No-IP: criticalmagic.com@noip-smtp X-Report-Spam-To: abuse@no-ip.com Received: from [172.16.0.12] (adsl-074-229-078-253.sip.asm.bellsouth.net [74.229.78.253]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: criticalmagic.com@noip-smtp) by smtp-auth.no-ip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF091AA9E5 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <486702D9.2060204@criticalmagic.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:34:49 -0400 From: Richard Coleman Organization: Critical Magic, Inc. User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> <7D28014A-C3FB-4944-95FC-15F299F9AF37@cyberlifelabs.com> In-Reply-To: <7D28014A-C3FB-4944-95FC-15F299F9AF37@cyberlifelabs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 03:55:51 -0000 Milo Hyson wrote: > The only real benefits I saw in distributed systems were private > branching and offline work. The former seems like it could be achieved > in Subversion by creating semi-private user directories like FreeBSD > does. As for the latter, while it's sometimes unavoidable (e.g. working > on an airplane) isn't something we really want to encourage. First of all, I think most of the version control systems had progressed to the point where virtually anything was an improvement over CVS. So I was glad to see FreeBSD make the jump and convert to subversion. It's a good system. So I have no axe to grind there. The only thing really lacking is a good way to handle local code. The old method of using CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM is very fragile. How is everyone managing their local code now with the conversion to subversion? This is the only place I miss using hg or bzr. Richard Coleman rcoleman@criticalmagic.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 29 05:53:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D1B1065689; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 05:53:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B618FC0C; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 05:53:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m5T5ofxs079611; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:50:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:52:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20080628.235225.-233676791.imp@bsdimp.com> To: brix@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20080628073807.GB45690@tirith.brixandersen.dk> References: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> <1E7FB809-CFBE-4ED6-9F32-97C90359BBF9@cyberlifelabs.com> <20080628073807.GB45690@tirith.brixandersen.dk> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 05:53:57 -0000 In message: <20080628073807.GB45690@tirith.brixandersen.dk> Henrik Brix Andersen writes: : On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 06:26:54PM -0700, Milo Hyson wrote: : > Can not the "decentralized" systems like Mercurial and GIT be used in a : > centralized fashion? Our internal experiments certainly show them to be : > every bit as capable as Subversion in this regard. Has your experience been : > different? : : They _can_ be used in centralized fashion, but they do not enforce : it. Subversion enforces a centralized development model. Well, hg requires one merge to the tip before committing to the tip, which has its own set of problems when used in a centralized manner. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 29 07:46:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79186106566C for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:46:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.235]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AB38FC14 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:46:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so1128280rvf.43 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:46:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=RtI50wuqY0VS3zSlR9mRzf31GOZBskip8NS3oYfkT+0=; b=U6S3yzioGa/m4rHQNr+ZA8CJ3Wc4GsQYYWMpAzTcvy+AotzpGLA97OGI5Vbp8hEAN6 18oQXpHPztqZPpBR17jUM7shJPjZmwA9zFIX3bCuS5/2GDRxjNYqfFMR6V1EiIrIubNj fU6ZMWjanxoWDOHYT3SoN/Sx64HygXv+QrVJE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=kUcZQ5WmG8FfidASw8DH905NDajPlv3JdCR6eFD6UCfivACMkUAnewMttXUY++1ucF pXlnWRWH/AUkZzpihWSl8VVpKgCmz/KgKjxd6J44qCfzmLYe6LbENgjNu9MV5TugZh3R mlWiKK8h7vuZjo1T4owElZHIgvPbT03Va+rZI= Received: by 10.140.126.14 with SMTP id y14mr1874308rvc.59.1214724133569; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.212.9 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:22:13 +0800 From: "Adrian Chadd" Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com To: "Richard Coleman" In-Reply-To: <486702D9.2060204@criticalmagic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> <7D28014A-C3FB-4944-95FC-15F299F9AF37@cyberlifelabs.com> <486702D9.2060204@criticalmagic.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a59b1a49d67426a5 Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:46:36 -0000 2008/6/29 Richard Coleman : > The only thing really lacking is a good way to handle local code. The old > method of using CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM is very fragile. How is everyone > managing their local code now with the conversion to subversion? This is > the only place I miss using hg or bzr. svk? I've heard it gets confused by the freebsd svn repo if you use a partial tree so I haven't tried yet but I've been tinkering with it for another project. It seems to work alright. Adrian From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 29 17:02:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0241065678; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:02:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C128FC0C; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:02:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF2146C27; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:02:49 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: net@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:02:50 -0000 On Sat, 24 May 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > Just as a reminder, we've just about reached the one month date before > IFF_NEEDSGIANT drivers are disabled in the build. You can find a > description of the general problem and list of specific drivers below. > > As USB work is on-going, I will *not* disable the USB drivers at this time, > but all other drivers in the list below will be disabled on 26 June. They > will remain in the tree, easily accessible for patch distribution and > re-enabling, until October, when any remaining non-MPSAFE drivers will be > deleted in 8.x. FreeBSD 8.0 will not ship with compatibility shims to > support non-MPSAFE network device drivers. An FYI on the state of things here: in the last month, John has updated a number of device drivers to be MPSAFE, and the USB work remains in-flight. I'm holding fire a bit on disabling IFF_NEEDSGIANT while things settle and I catch up on driver state, and will likely send out an update next week regarding which device drivers remain on the kill list, and generally what the status of this project is. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge > > Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:59:05 +0000 (GMT) > From: Robert Watson > To: arch@FreeBSD.org > Subject: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd) > > > Only a few days after predicted, this is a reminder that IFF_NEEDSGIANT > network drivers are going to stop working in the forseeable future. Please > review the attached driver list, and if you depend on or care about a > Giant-dependent device driver, take action to make sure it doesn't remain on > the list in a month's time! > > (As far as I'm aware, the list has not changed since my December posting.) > > Robert N M Watson > Computer Laboratory > University of Cambridge > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:43:28 +0000 (GMT) > From: Robert Watson > To: arch@FreeBSD.org > Subject: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals > > > Dear all: > > With the 7.0 release around the corner, many developers are starting to think > about (and in quite a few cases, work on) their goals for 8.0. One of our > on-going kernel projects has been the elimination of the Giant lock, and that > project has transformed into one of optimizating behavior on increasing > numbers of processors. > > In 7.0, despite the noteworth accomplishment of eliminating debug.mpsasfenet > and conditional network stack Gian acquisition, we were unable to fully > eliminate the IFF_NEEDSGIANT flag, which controls the conditional acquisition > of the Giant lock around non-MPSAFE network device drivers. Primarily these > drivers are aging ISA network device drivers, although there are some > exceptions, such as the USB stack. > > This e-mail proposes the elimination of the IFF_NEEDSGIANT flag and > associated infrastructure in FreeBSD 8.0, meaning that all network device > drivers must be able to operate without the Giant lock (largely the case > already). Remaining drivers using the IFF_NEEDSGIANT flag must either be > updated, or less ideally, removed. I propose the following schedule: > > Date Goals > ---- ----- > 26 Dec 2007 Post proposed schedule for flag and infrastructure removal > Post affected driver list > > 26 Jan 2008 Repost proposed schedule for flag and infrastructure removal > Post updated affected driver list > > 26 Feb 2008 Adjust boot-time printf for affect drivers to generate a loud > warning. > Post updated affected driver list > > 26 May 2008 Post HEADS UP of impending driver disabling > Post updated affected driver list > > 26 Jun 2008 Disable build of all drivers requiring IFF_NEEDSGIANT > Post updated affected driver list > > 26 Sep 2008 Post HEADS up of impending driver removal > Post updated affected driver list > > 26 Oct 2008 Delete source of all drivers requiring IFF_NEEDSGIANT > Remove flag and infrastructure > > Here is a list of potentially affected drivers: > > Name Bus Man page description > --- --- -------------------- > ar ISA/PCI synchronous Digi/Arnet device driver > arl ISA Aironet Arlan 655 wireless network adapter driver > awi PCCARD AMD PCnetMobile IEEE 802.11 PCMCIA wireless network > driver > axe USB ASIX Electronics AX88172 USB Ethernet driver > cdce USB USB Communication Device Class Ethernet driver > cnw PCCARD Netwave AirSurfer wireless network driver > cs ISA/PCCARD Ethernet device driver > cue USB CATC USB-EL1210A USB Ethernet driver > ex ISA/PCCARD Ethernet device driver for the Intel EtherExpress > Pro/10 and Pro/10+ > fe CBUS/ISA/PCCARD Fujitsu MB86960A/MB86965A based Ethernet adapters > ic I2C I2C bus system > ie ISA Ethernet device driver > kue USB Kawasaki LSI KL5KUSB101B USB Ethernet driver > oltr ISA/PCI Olicom Token Ring device driver > plip PPBUS printer port Internet Protocol driver > ppp TTY point to point protocol network interface > ray PCCARD Raytheon Raylink/Webgear Aviator PCCard driver > rue USB RealTek RTL8150 USB to Fast Ethernet controller > driver > rum USB Ralink Technology USB IEEE 802.11a/b/g wireless > network device > sbni ISA/PCI Granch SBNI12 leased line modem driver > sbsh PCI Granch SBNI16 SHDSL modem device driver > sl TTY slip network interface > snc ISA/PCCARD National Semiconductor DP8393X SONIC Ethernet adapter > driver > sr ISA/PCI synchronous RISCom/N2 / WANic 400/405 device driver > udav USB Davicom DM9601 USB Ethernet driver > ural USB Ralink Technology RT2500USB IEEE 802.11 driver > xe PCCARD Xircom PCMCIA Ethernet device driver > zyd USB ZyDAS ZD1211/ZD1211B USB IEEE 802.11b/g wireless > network device > > In some cases, the requirement for Giant is a property of a subsystem the > driver depends on as the driver itself; for example, the tty subsystem for > SLIP and PPP, and the USB subsystem for a number of USB ethernet and wireless > drivers. With most of a year before to go on the proposed schedule, my hope > is that we will have lots of time to address these issues, but wanted to get > a roadmap out from a network protocol stack architecture perspective so that > device driver and subsystem authors could have a schedule in mind. > > FYI, the following drivers also reference IFF_NEEDSGIANT, but only in order > to provide their own conditional MPSAFEty, which can be removed without > affecting device driver functionality (I believe): > > Name Bus Man page description > --- --- -------------------- > ce PCI driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau-PCI/32 WAN adapters > cp PCI driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau-PCI WAN adapters > ctau ISA driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau WAN adapters > cx ISA driver for synchronous/asynchronous Cronyx Sigma WAN > adapters > > Developers and users of the above drivers are heavily encouraged to update > the drivers to remove dependence on Giant, and/or make other contingency > plans. > > Robert N M Watson > Computer Laboratory > University of Cambridge > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 04:50:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00A51065671 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:50:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gordon.tetlow@gmail.com) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.243]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612548FC19 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:50:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gordon.tetlow@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b33so281261ana.13 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=I4tExbJPTWcgbTmng8PRqWd0vSKY58ryOBvuRyaKTg4=; b=SSIdRBJw021lae9MUnZMnxdrvvE4acMiX9sp0ce6GirBBodWNSoNNkgjgqLWoDvcuH Q1DXKkPNNQ0VuWc17wuJT9eD68VswIcXSqTDflrUjes4cPlHi0SgHYn5FH43RkWb2DzE y9PO4M/cAmzIoSTSp58OKRAVthFKZ0Vq8YRxc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=LIjQXiUGLuOzEtm/IDEl2H7SYnLhpY1kQuLI0yWeO9O39KwHJRV1K/tJBKqJ6ghQjm fcwVKKr8ggkJtrAFrocUq7qzf/BnLt4w9rWZkDEFHa+0KjOcO5kG+5ywtVem//wg15xR L8Ab+TBtZeDiHpuiov/3KAT8gh7slc6io9yms= Received: by 10.100.178.7 with SMTP id a7mr162709anf.68.1214801404469; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.138.1 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4e571dd70806292150vd6f47e1y430206f5a4a3d963@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:50:04 -0700 From: "Gordon Tetlow" Sender: gordon.tetlow@gmail.com To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=" In-Reply-To: <86tzfdwnd4.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> <86tzfdwnd4.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a304d3af90ab0479 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Milo Hyson , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:50:05 -0000 On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > "Gordon Tetlow" writes: > > As an SCM expert at my place of employment, [...] > > As an SCM expert, you should know that neither CVS not Subversion are > SCM tools. Neither are any of the other systems you mention, except > perhaps, at a stretch, Perforce. They are version (or revision) control > systems. Ah, a problem with that acronym is it has 2 different meanings (which I think we were using different ones). I was meaning source code management, while I think you were meaning software configuration management? -gordon From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 07:42:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B851065673 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:42:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C579B8FC0C for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:42:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779462083; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:42:44 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Gordon Tetlow" References: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> <86tzfdwnd4.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4e571dd70806292150vd6f47e1y430206f5a4a3d963@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:42:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4e571dd70806292150vd6f47e1y430206f5a4a3d963@mail.gmail.com> (Gordon Tetlow's message of "Sun\, 29 Jun 2008 21\:50\:04 -0700") Message-ID: <86iqvrqsgb.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Milo Hyson , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:42:47 -0000 "Gordon Tetlow" writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > As an SCM expert, you should know that neither CVS not Subversion > > are SCM tools. Neither are any of the other systems you mention, > > except perhaps, at a stretch, Perforce. They are version (or > > revision) control systems. > Ah, a problem with that acronym is it has 2 different meanings (which I > think we were using different ones). I was meaning source code management, > while I think you were meaning software configuration management? I've never heard of "source code managmenet", actually, but yes. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 08:27:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF745106566C; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9087B8FC21; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133FA46C0D; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:27:11 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: net@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:27:12 -0000 On Sun, 29 Jun 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > An FYI on the state of things here: in the last month, John has updated a > number of device drivers to be MPSAFE, and the USB work remains in-flight. > I'm holding fire a bit on disabling IFF_NEEDSGIANT while things settle and I > catch up on driver state, and will likely send out an update next week > regarding which device drivers remain on the kill list, and generally what > the status of this project is. Here's the revised list of drivers that will have their build disabled in the next week (subject to an appropriate block of time for me): Name Bus Man page description ---- --- -------------------- ar ISA/PCI synchronous Digi/Arnet device driver arl ISA Aironet Arlan 655 wireless network adapter driver cnw ISA Netwave AirSurfer wireless network driver ic I2C I2C bus system oltr ISA/PCI Olicom Token Ring device driver plip PPBUS printer port Internet Protocol driver ppp TTY point to point protocol network interface ray PCCARD Raytheon Raylink/Webgear Aviator PCCard driver sbni ISA/PCI Granch SBNI12 leased line modem driver sbsh PCI Granch SBNI16 SHDSL modem device driver sl TTY slip network interface snc ISA/PCCARD National Semiconductor DP8393X SONIC Ethernet adapter driver sppp TTY point to point protocol network layer for synchronous lines sr ISA/PCI synchronous RISCom/N2 / WANic 400/405 device driver Obviously, if necessary work is done to remove the IFF_NEEDSGIANT requirement from a driver, it will be pulled from the list, and I'll do an IFF_NEEDSGIANT scan before pulling the plug. Drivers will remain in the tree but disconnected for about a month before being removed from HEAD. Thanks greatly to John and others who have worked hard to reduce the size of the list in the last year! The following USB drivers will remain enabled due to on-going USB work that should eliminate IFF_NEEDSGIANT: Name Bus Man page description ---- --- -------------------- axe USB ASIX Electronics AX88172 USB Ethernet driver cdce USB USB Communication Device Class Ethernet driver cue USB CATC USB-EL1210A USB Ethernet driver kue USB Kawasaki LSI KL5KUSB101B USB Ethernet driver rue USB RealTek RTL8150 USB to Fast Ethernet controller rum USB Ralink Technology USB IEEE 802.11a/b/g wireless network device udav USB Davicom DM9601 USB Ethernet driver ural USB Ralink Technology RT2500USB IEEE 802.11 driver zyd USB ZyDAS ZD1211/ZD1211B USB IEEE 802.11b/g wireless network device The following drivers reference IFF_NEEDSGIANT but only when running in an optional non-MPSAFE mode; that optional mode will be removed but the drivers will remain: Name Bus Man page description ---- --- -------------------- ce PCI driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau-PCI/32 WAN adapters cp PCI driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau-PCI WAN adapters ctau ISA driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau WAN adapters cx ISA driver for synchronous/asynchronous Cronyx Sigma WAN adapters Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 10:10:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B57A106564A for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:10:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD958FC25 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:10:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 24so1352074wfg.7 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 03:10:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=IE9H0mnXHAuLgzbfdAYyi10hFrKOMsKZ0szKskxNkzo=; b=s6JXOYrHok8KIP7wf8pD5h7sJqS3WLwjeZXOoRgGosKhaRkJC7QRnVWtrxsIJU0+eZ LxBTLDOFYtKt1XnkQTnJ8j8HKxyFabpgWJ533z7w60CwSZOYDnzbZMDK8ONMfRSiMYih ehl0yf1IPlLqAJosdkwhEpXkQclPMNzgUEni4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=fAAuKbPs5dzExvViFYQ/QaekpxslvhMIEyRoW96IlcY+cGZFEGt7xjtplNBDFx4H9p r1HnX4cCNnOFpXW7+glVEfof6kw5yRhdsPF0ktwO4CcAroI6FgUES83WSN6VIaLKD5pz 6OfSI/xD0U/k0e+ojFt2QugoKDm938TdeeK0I= Received: by 10.142.72.4 with SMTP id u4mr1774371wfa.269.1214819001986; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.172.8 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <70e8236f0806300243k69399808mf54ccb5796d395c0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:43:21 +0100 From: "Joao Barros" To: "Robert Watson" In-Reply-To: <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:10:31 -0000 On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Robert Watson wrote: > The following USB drivers will remain enabled due to on-going USB work that > should eliminate IFF_NEEDSGIANT: Hi Robert, Is this on-going USB work just on the driver level or on the USB stack as well? I assume both need to be touched for MP safety. Who is doing this work? Joao Barros From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 11:06:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AF610656B2 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF248FC18 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5UB6spJ095690 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:54 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m5UB6rxC095686 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:53 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:53 GMT Message-Id: <200806301106.m5UB6rxC095686@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:54 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o kern/120749 arch [request] Suggest upping the default kern.ps_arg_cache 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 12:31:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEA2106568D for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:31:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from redbull.bpaserver.net (redbullneu.bpaserver.net [213.198.78.217]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 858AD8FC15 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:31:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (p54A57A87.dip.t-dialin.net [84.165.122.135]) by redbull.bpaserver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4332E2D6; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:16:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from webmail.leidinger.net (webmail.leidinger.net [192.168.1.102]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096AE1340F1; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:16:12 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=Leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1214828172; bh=HmifkMrU5So/Hf6WY68q+Etsuz7q1OLXQ eXJkj5i0kM=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=WCAGTs15tdtBZxf++LK/YktEC4sq3PnweMCQUhRNZpO6RKRCYmVq2KtoNO6S3ton7 jD2eTb08bfT+m/QiMW0TNUH8DPXf8k2jBzdmdejLBNAd2lpV2zMbI1Mgvocr3EKZIXB 5C37BZ8+NrDT4mgA9w8GQfauiQBSrFdBot6rFNZkAetKRaaT9LebGCPwcZbZxtFr5c3 1pS53jb0QJ7/6JauipH6kdm4THBGqh4/ctgCRX4Gtfr+b8p+hByFy6puT7v0rqBJ1eR T+lBzcq0NvVmf9lYi/nKt1O4iKWtlSTzOy4Bh9L6m7KazNUQfy/adskBLxbMPgT1kW+ zTl9CyvFA== Received: (from www@localhost) by webmail.leidinger.net (8.14.2/8.13.8/Submit) id m5UCGBZa067264; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:16:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from pslux.cec.eu.int (pslux.cec.eu.int [158.169.9.14]) by webmail.leidinger.net (Horde Framework) with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:16:11 +0200 Message-ID: <20080630141611.56172qs6gac45ri8@webmail.leidinger.net> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:16:11 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Robert Watson References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.2-RC2) / FreeBSD-8.0 X-BPAnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-BPAnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-BPAnet-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, ORDB-RBL, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-14.823, required 6, BAYES_00 -15.00, DKIM_SIGNED 0.00, DKIM_VERIFIED -0.00, RDNS_DYNAMIC 0.10, TW_CX 0.08) X-BPAnet-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-Spam-Status: No Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:31:52 -0000 Quoting Robert Watson (from Mon, 30 Jun 2008 =20 09:27:11 +0100 (BST)): > > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > >> An FYI on the state of things here: in the last month, John has =20 >> updated a number of device drivers to be MPSAFE, and the USB work =20 >> remains in-flight. I'm holding fire a bit on disabling =20 >> IFF_NEEDSGIANT while things settle and I catch up on driver state, =20 >> and will likely send out an update next week regarding which device =20 >> drivers remain on the kill list, and generally what the status of =20 >> this project is. > > Here's the revised list of drivers that will have their build =20 > disabled in the next week (subject to an appropriate block of time =20 > for me): Is this list supposed to be complete (including dependencies)? bktr =20 uses some I2C stuff and cxm (in ports) too. Bye, Alexander. --=20 meeting, n: =09An assembly of people coming together to decide what person or =09department not represented in the room must solve a problem. http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID =3D B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID =3D 72077137 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 12:36:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34EA61065672; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1D28FC1B; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA10446B2E; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:36:45 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Alexander Leidinger In-Reply-To: <20080630141611.56172qs6gac45ri8@webmail.leidinger.net> Message-ID: <20080630133335.K54631@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> <20080630141611.56172qs6gac45ri8@webmail.leidinger.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:36:46 -0000 On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Alexander Leidinger wrote: >> Here's the revised list of drivers that will have their build disabled in >> the next week (subject to an appropriate block of time for me): > > Is this list supposed to be complete (including dependencies)? bktr uses > some I2C stuff and cxm (in ports) too. As far as I'm aware, this list is complete. I compiled it by identifying all network device drivers that set (or may set) the IFF_NEEDSGIANT. With respect to i2c, this refers *only* to the if_ic.c network device driver, and not the other services associated with i2c, so bktr and other i2c consumers should be unaffected. I'm not familiar with cxm so can't comment on that. If you are aware of any other in-tree network device drivers that use IFF_NEEDSGIANT and aren't on the list, please do let me know. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 12:37:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC762106564A; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:37:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD908FC1B; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:37:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F6346C0C; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:37:54 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Joao Barros In-Reply-To: <70e8236f0806300243k69399808mf54ccb5796d395c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080630133649.P54631@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> <70e8236f0806300243k69399808mf54ccb5796d395c0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:37:54 -0000 On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Joao Barros wrote: > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Robert Watson wrote: >> The following USB drivers will remain enabled due to on-going USB work that >> should eliminate IFF_NEEDSGIANT: > > Is this on-going USB work just on the driver level or on the USB stack as > well? I assume both need to be touched for MP safety. Who is doing this > work? I'm not familiar with the details of the on-going work, but as I understand it, all USB device drivers have been fully locked and the requirement for IFF_NEEDSGIANT is eliminated. Perhaps Hans, Warner, or Alfred could provide some further insight in this area. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 13:17:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084491065670; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:17:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from redbull.bpaserver.net (redbullneu.bpaserver.net [213.198.78.217]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A237E8FC1A; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:17:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (p54A57A87.dip.t-dialin.net [84.165.122.135]) by redbull.bpaserver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913022E095; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:17:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from webmail.leidinger.net (webmail.leidinger.net [192.168.1.102]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103A211926B; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:17:15 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=Leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1214831835; bh=CD8DDhyprgMB3SA392bQDGRjGB8kkVnhv P1wDGcvHUw=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tUDKlmol9tESEn2hZhr8l/IbZN2AQg4P6KfzCKb0AglslYd9JIQuL+G2cJptD18Pg C9U4PFQk2DjEpUQotDSoQrsspiLX6sO5gOrjUGFWtri8uvUn1cKolcWInkIGPUIg+6C SeH7FB7rHF4v/mYrjBdC7PVOpGdEjINbB1ZiLFKawXqgGYrUAwGaAix+ZlkWWColscp MkBftVoO4ngm+5EnOPF2zh56qq13nyDLE+nOKCFoRoPGJrAWbTqHUUYIU3w40xY2m1u sHJxFIR7sGSkv5X4O30xU2qS7MrG8noZSIsheNU39elTo7P/sZecpL6VGUCvn7M6swP zAzHcP2ug== Received: (from www@localhost) by webmail.leidinger.net (8.14.2/8.13.8/Submit) id m5UDHEeJ077404; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:17:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from pslux.cec.eu.int (pslux.cec.eu.int [158.169.9.14]) by webmail.leidinger.net (Horde Framework) with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:17:14 +0200 Message-ID: <20080630151714.13993elkvrzzzda8@webmail.leidinger.net> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:17:14 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Robert Watson References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> <20080630141611.56172qs6gac45ri8@webmail.leidinger.net> <20080630133335.K54631@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080630133335.K54631@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.2-RC2) / FreeBSD-8.0 X-BPAnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-BPAnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-BPAnet-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, ORDB-RBL, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-14.823, required 6, BAYES_00 -15.00, DKIM_SIGNED 0.00, DKIM_VERIFIED -0.00, RDNS_DYNAMIC 0.10, TW_CX 0.08) X-BPAnet-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-Spam-Status: No Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:17:25 -0000 Quoting Robert Watson (from Mon, 30 Jun 2008 =20 13:36:45 +0100 (BST)): > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Alexander Leidinger wrote: > >>> Here's the revised list of drivers that will have their build =20 >>> disabled in the next week (subject to an appropriate block of time =20 >>> for me): >> >> Is this list supposed to be complete (including dependencies)? bktr =20 >> uses some I2C stuff and cxm (in ports) too. > > As far as I'm aware, this list is complete. I compiled it by =20 > identifying all network device drivers that set (or may set) the =20 > IFF_NEEDSGIANT. With respect to i2c, this refers *only* to the =20 > if_ic.c network device driver, and not the other services associated =20 > with i2c, so bktr and other i2c consumers should be unaffected. I'm Ok. > not familiar with cxm so can't comment on that. If you are aware of =20 > any other in-tree network device drivers that use IFF_NEEDSGIANT and =20 > aren't on the list, please do let me know. I think cxm is similar to bktr in this regard (both are multimedia devices). Bye, Alexander. --=20 PARDON me, am I speaking ENGLISH? http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID =3D B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID =3D 72077137 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 14:40:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3F1106568A; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:40:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hselasky@c2i.net) Received: from swip.net (mailfe07.swip.net [212.247.154.193]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDCE8FC0A; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:40:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hselasky@c2i.net) X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=tUWMqruglosA:10 a=vGZbR77S6-YA:10 a=NMGBx6iLSXY/3qZKdJo9Bw==:17 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=x3mGqk6BiQcakV6IviYA:9 a=tEWCTne9EWEIHHrelncA:7 a=ZaVJdwSAxtzrjc5kqyx-8OciHPUA:4 a=SV7veod9ZcQA:10 a=LY0hPdMaydYA:10 Received: from [62.113.135.207] (account mc467741@c2i.net [62.113.135.207] verified) by mailfe07.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.4b) with ESMTPA id 991033122; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:40:11 +0200 From: Hans Petter Selasky To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:41:44 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> <70e8236f0806300243k69399808mf54ccb5796d395c0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <70e8236f0806300243k69399808mf54ccb5796d395c0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806301541.46177.hselasky@c2i.net> Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Joao Barros , Robert Watson , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:40:16 -0000 On Monday 30 June 2008, Joao Barros wrote: > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Robert Watson wrote: > > The following USB drivers will remain enabled due to on-going USB work > > that should eliminate IFF_NEEDSGIANT: > > Hi Robert, > > Is this on-going USB work just on the driver level or on the USB stack > as well? I assume both need to be touched for MP safety. > Who is doing this work? > > Joao Barros > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Hi, In the USB perforce project there are Giant free USB ethernet drivers, which have been around for quite a while. I am currently in the run-up renaming symbols so that my new USB stack can co-exist with the old USB stack. At least it will be possible to compile a kernel with both USB stacks. I suppose that USB ethernet drivers will no longer be available in the old USB stack ? References for FreeBSD developers: Before symbol rename: //depot/projects/usb/src/sys/dev/usb {if_xxx.c} After symbol rename: //depot/projects/usb/src/sys/dev/usb2/ethernet Others: http://perforce.freebsd.org/depotTreeBrowser.cgi?FSPC=//depot/projects/usb/src/sys/dev/usb2/ethernet&HIDEDEL=NO --HPS From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 14:40:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3F1106568A; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:40:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hselasky@c2i.net) Received: from swip.net (mailfe07.swip.net [212.247.154.193]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDCE8FC0A; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:40:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hselasky@c2i.net) X-Cloudmark-Score: 0.000000 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=tUWMqruglosA:10 a=vGZbR77S6-YA:10 a=NMGBx6iLSXY/3qZKdJo9Bw==:17 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=x3mGqk6BiQcakV6IviYA:9 a=tEWCTne9EWEIHHrelncA:7 a=ZaVJdwSAxtzrjc5kqyx-8OciHPUA:4 a=SV7veod9ZcQA:10 a=LY0hPdMaydYA:10 Received: from [62.113.135.207] (account mc467741@c2i.net [62.113.135.207] verified) by mailfe07.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.4b) with ESMTPA id 991033122; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:40:11 +0200 From: Hans Petter Selasky To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:41:44 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080630091033.P3968@fledge.watson.org> <70e8236f0806300243k69399808mf54ccb5796d395c0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <70e8236f0806300243k69399808mf54ccb5796d395c0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806301541.46177.hselasky@c2i.net> Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Joao Barros , Robert Watson , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:40:16 -0000 On Monday 30 June 2008, Joao Barros wrote: > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Robert Watson wrote: > > The following USB drivers will remain enabled due to on-going USB work > > that should eliminate IFF_NEEDSGIANT: > > Hi Robert, > > Is this on-going USB work just on the driver level or on the USB stack > as well? I assume both need to be touched for MP safety. > Who is doing this work? > > Joao Barros > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Hi, In the USB perforce project there are Giant free USB ethernet drivers, which have been around for quite a while. I am currently in the run-up renaming symbols so that my new USB stack can co-exist with the old USB stack. At least it will be possible to compile a kernel with both USB stacks. I suppose that USB ethernet drivers will no longer be available in the old USB stack ? References for FreeBSD developers: Before symbol rename: //depot/projects/usb/src/sys/dev/usb {if_xxx.c} After symbol rename: //depot/projects/usb/src/sys/dev/usb2/ethernet Others: http://perforce.freebsd.org/depotTreeBrowser.cgi?FSPC=//depot/projects/usb/src/sys/dev/usb2/ethernet&HIDEDEL=NO --HPS From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 23:10:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5431065670; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:10:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1143B8FC1E; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5UNA9vo022818; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:10:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:17:21 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806301517.22173.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:10:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93.1/7596/Mon Jun 30 18:21:48 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Robert Watson , current@freebsd.org, net@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:10:23 -0000 On Sunday 29 June 2008 01:02:49 pm Robert Watson wrote: > > On Sat, 24 May 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > > Just as a reminder, we've just about reached the one month date before > > IFF_NEEDSGIANT drivers are disabled in the build. You can find a > > description of the general problem and list of specific drivers below. > > > > As USB work is on-going, I will *not* disable the USB drivers at this time, > > but all other drivers in the list below will be disabled on 26 June. They > > will remain in the tree, easily accessible for patch distribution and > > re-enabling, until October, when any remaining non-MPSAFE drivers will be > > deleted in 8.x. FreeBSD 8.0 will not ship with compatibility shims to > > support non-MPSAFE network device drivers. > > An FYI on the state of things here: in the last month, John has updated a > number of device drivers to be MPSAFE, and the USB work remains in-flight. > I'm holding fire a bit on disabling IFF_NEEDSGIANT while things settle and I > catch up on driver state, and will likely send out an update next week > regarding which device drivers remain on the kill list, and generally what the > status of this project is. Pending someone testing them real soon, I will be axeing at least sbsh, sbni, snc, and cnw this week (I had someone e-mail who said they would test the arl(4) pages). I still want to work on if_plip (which means locking ppbus) and if_ic (iicbus). I started working on locking iicbus recently FWIW. Aside from USB that leaves ray(4) (which does tsleep() all over the place including in interrupt handlers.. this couldn't have worked on 4.x all that well) and the various Cronyx drivers which interface with netgraph. Someone who knows netgraph can probably step up to lock those. Could also ask rik@ directly about the Cronyx drivers (cx, ctau, and cp). -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 23:10:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5431065670; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:10:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1143B8FC1E; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5UNA9vo022818; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:10:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:17:21 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806301517.22173.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:10:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93.1/7596/Mon Jun 30 18:21:48 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Robert Watson , current@freebsd.org, net@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:10:23 -0000 On Sunday 29 June 2008 01:02:49 pm Robert Watson wrote: > > On Sat, 24 May 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > > Just as a reminder, we've just about reached the one month date before > > IFF_NEEDSGIANT drivers are disabled in the build. You can find a > > description of the general problem and list of specific drivers below. > > > > As USB work is on-going, I will *not* disable the USB drivers at this time, > > but all other drivers in the list below will be disabled on 26 June. They > > will remain in the tree, easily accessible for patch distribution and > > re-enabling, until October, when any remaining non-MPSAFE drivers will be > > deleted in 8.x. FreeBSD 8.0 will not ship with compatibility shims to > > support non-MPSAFE network device drivers. > > An FYI on the state of things here: in the last month, John has updated a > number of device drivers to be MPSAFE, and the USB work remains in-flight. > I'm holding fire a bit on disabling IFF_NEEDSGIANT while things settle and I > catch up on driver state, and will likely send out an update next week > regarding which device drivers remain on the kill list, and generally what the > status of this project is. Pending someone testing them real soon, I will be axeing at least sbsh, sbni, snc, and cnw this week (I had someone e-mail who said they would test the arl(4) pages). I still want to work on if_plip (which means locking ppbus) and if_ic (iicbus). I started working on locking iicbus recently FWIW. Aside from USB that leaves ray(4) (which does tsleep() all over the place including in interrupt handlers.. this couldn't have worked on 4.x all that well) and the various Cronyx drivers which interface with netgraph. Someone who knows netgraph can probably step up to lock those. Could also ask rik@ directly about the Cronyx drivers (cx, ctau, and cp). -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 09:14:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241F6106567F; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:14:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bms@FreeBSD.org) Received: from out3.smtp.messagingengine.com (out3.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74E58FC27; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:14:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bms@FreeBSD.org) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.internal [10.202.2.41]) by out1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37EF31325BE; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 05:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 01 Jul 2008 05:14:47 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: pg1O+wpjmR4ds5E47tjB60Xr0CQ1z9taMYSboiCqX0zU 1214903686 Received: from empiric.lon.incunabulum.net (82-35-112-254.cable.ubr07.dals.blueyonder.co.uk [82.35.112.254]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 767C713356; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 05:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4869F586.7010708@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:14:46 +0100 From: "Bruce M. Simpson" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080514) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <20080524111715.T64552@fledge.watson.org> <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080629180126.F90836@fledge.watson.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org, net@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEAD UP: non-MPSAFE network drivers to be disabled (was: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd)) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 09:14:48 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > > An FYI on the state of things here: in the last month, John has > updated a number of device drivers to be MPSAFE, and the USB work > remains in-flight. I'm holding fire a bit on disabling IFF_NEEDSGIANT > while things settle and I catch up on driver state, and will likely > send out an update next week regarding which device drivers remain on > the kill list, and generally what the status of this project is. Goliath needs to get stoned, it's been a major hurdle in doing IGMPv3/SSM because of the locking fandango. I look forward to it. [For those who ask, what the hell? IGMPv3 potentially makes your wireless multicast better with or without little things like SSM, because of protocol robustness, compact state-changes, and the use of a single link-local IPv4 group for state-change reports, making it easier for your switches to actually do their job.] From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 2 19:09:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE33106566C; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:09:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:610:652::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E4A8FC1B; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:09:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6895E1CD13; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:09:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:09:01 +0200 From: Ed Schouten To: FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD Arch Message-ID: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Bk6L21jbBNK7V1Rv" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: Philip Paeps Subject: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:09:03 -0000 --Bk6L21jbBNK7V1Rv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, About 2 weeks ago I sent a message to these lists about the new MPSAFE TTY layer I've been working on. In my opinion, it is quite robust and after some minor polishing it should be a great candidate for inclusion in FreeBSD -CURRENT (never to be MFC'd). The last 2 weeks I've ported all the console drivers and fixed some bugs after I received some feedback from testers. Below is a list of pros and cons of the new TTY layer: + The new TTY layer allows drivers to operate without the Giant lock. Drivers like uart(4), the console drivers and the pseudo-terminal driver already support fine grained locking. + The new pseudo-terminal driver is capable of garbage collecting unused PTY's. Because PTY's are never recycled, they are a lot more robust (they are always initialized the same, no need to revoke() them before usage, etc). + The new TTY layer includes a new buffer scheme called the ttyinq and ttyoutq. Unlike clists, they provide unbuffered copying of data back to userspace, making read() calls in raw mode more efficient. + The programming interface for kernel drivers is a lot more simple. There is no need to have any knowledge about the internal state of the TTY layer. - Not all drivers have been ported to the new TTY layer yet. These drivers still need to be ported: sio(4), cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), uftdi(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4), umodem(4), dcons(4). Even though drivers are very important to have, I am convinced we can get these working not long after the code as been integrated. I have considered adding two TTY layers to the FreeBSD kernel, but looking at the drivers, I'm not sure this is worth it, it turns certain parts of the kernel into rubbish. If you really care about one of these drivers, please port it to the new TTY layer as soon as possible! Below is the schedule I'm proposing for the integration of the MPSAFE TTY layer into our kernel. I would really appreciate it if I could get this code in before the end of the summer break, because I've got heaps of spare time to fix any problems then. July 2 2008 (today): Send a schedule to the lists about the integration of the MPSAFE TTY layer. July 13 2008: Make uart(4) the default serial port driver, instead of sio(4). sio(4) has not been ported to the new TTY layer and is very hard to do so. uart(4) has been proven to be more portable than sio(4) and already supports the hardware we need. July 20 2008: Send another heads-up to the lists about the new TTY layer. Kindly ask people to test the patchset, port more drivers, etc. August 3 2008: Disconnect drivers from the build that haven't been patched in the MPSAFE TTY branch. August 8 2008: Send the last heads-up to the lists, to warn people about the big commit. August 10 2008: Commit the new MPSAFE TTY driver in several commits (first commit the layer itself, then commit changes to drivers one by one). I'll stay close to my inbox the next couple of days after I've integrated the code, to make sure I can fix any bugs which may be spotted to be fixed shortly. Please, make sure we can make this a smooth transition by testing/reviewing my code. I tend to generate diffs very often. They can be downloaded here: http://www.il.fontys.nl/~ed/projects/mpsafetty/patches/ Thanks! --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --Bk6L21jbBNK7V1Rv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhr0k0ACgkQ52SDGA2eCwVIAACeI4NqzWRZ3Si7b5zhBdoCc6mM T3YAn2qvQJHuSgTeIZXFKkL2mDydJcLD =x78/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Bk6L21jbBNK7V1Rv-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 3 13:49:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3952106567F; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:49:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp (watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp [133.80.152.80]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2FE8FC25; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:49:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp (unknown) with ESMTP id m63DZxRK033411; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:35:59 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:34:53 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20080703.223453.104068461.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> To: ed@80386.nl From: Takahashi Yoshihiro In-Reply-To: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.1 on Emacs 22.2 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:49:35 -0000 In article <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> Ed Schouten writes: > July 13 2008: > Make uart(4) the default serial port driver, instead of sio(4). > sio(4) has not been ported to the new TTY layer and is very hard > to do so. uart(4) has been proven to be more portable than > sio(4) and already supports the hardware we need. uart(4) does not support PC98 CBus and i8251 devices at all. So I wish that sio(4) is remained. --- TAKAHASHI Yoshihiro From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 3 20:52:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829DA1065680; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:610:652::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D998FC13; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 234051CC64; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:52:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:52:20 +0200 From: Ed Schouten To: Peter Jeremy Message-ID: <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> <20080703193406.GS29380@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mz5eWKkhz39mMVQV" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080703193406.GS29380@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: FreeBSD Arch , FreeBSD Current , Philip Paeps Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:52:21 -0000 --mz5eWKkhz39mMVQV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Peter, * Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2008-Jul-02 21:09:01 +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > >+ The new pseudo-terminal driver is capable of garbage collecting unused > > PTY's. Because PTY's are never recycled, they are a lot more robust > > (they are always initialized the same, no need to revoke() them before > > usage, etc). >=20 > When you say 'never recycled', does this include the PTY number? If > so, long running busy systems are going to get some fairly large > numbers. When will the PTY number wrap? What is the impact on tools > (eg ps, w) that assume they can represent a PTY in a small number of > digits? What about utmp(5) which uses PTY number in the index? PTY's are deallocated when unused, which means the PTY number is reused when possible. We still enfore the 1000 PTY limit, because utmp(5) only supports line names of eight bytes long ("pts/999\0"). > >- Not all drivers have been ported to the new TTY layer yet. These > > drivers still need to be ported: sio(4), cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), > > uftdi(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4), > > umodem(4), dcons(4). > > > >Even though drivers are very important to have, I am convinced we can > >get these working not long after the code as been integrated. ... > > If you really care about one of these drivers, > >please port it to the new TTY layer as soon as possible! >=20 > IMHO, this is not a reasonable approach: "Hi everyone. I'm going to > break infrastructure that a whole bunch of drivers depend on. If you > don't fix your drivers in the next few weeks then I'll disconnect > them". Either you need to provide compatibility shims (possibly > temporary and not MPSAFE) or you need to be far more pro-active in > assisting with porting existing consumers of the TTY layer. Well, even though I'd rather let other people assess me, I think I've been very proactive so far. As you can see, I sent my email to the list two days ago. In those two days I've fixed both umodem(4) and uftdi(4) to work with the new TTY layer again. > >TTY layer into our kernel. I would really appreciate it if I could get > >this code in before the end of the summer break, because I've got heaps > >of spare time to fix any problems then. >=20 > That's all very nice but what about the maintainers of all the other > drivers that you are impacting? >=20 > > sio(4) has not been ported to the new TTY layer and is very hard > > to do so. >=20 > This is the only mention of how much effort is involved in porting a > driver to use the MPSAFE TTY layer and "very hard" is not a good start. > I can't quickly find any documentation on how to go about porting an > existing driver - definitely there are no section 9 man pages describing > the new API in your patchset. Well, sio(4) isn't impossible to port to the new TTY layer, but the first thing I noticed when I was hacking on the TTY layer during my internship, was that the uart(4) code was so easy to read, I only had to alter a single 396 line C file containing all the TTY interaction, while the sio(4) was somewhat (tenfold) more complex. But I just got told sio(4) is required for pc98, because uart(4) is not supported there. This means I'll seriously consider porting sio(4) one of these days. It's no biggie, even though I think someone could better take the effort to extend uart(4). The same with dcons(4). Even though I don't have any hardware to test it personally, I'll try to make sure we'll get it working in time. > IMHO, if you can't commit fixed drivers along with the MPSAFE TTY > layer, a more reasonable schedule is to replace the existing TTY layer > with an MPSAFE TTY layer that includes compatibility shims. If the > shims make things non-MPSAFE (which is likely) then warn that they > will be going away in (say) six months. This gives developers a more > reasonable timeframe in which to update, as well as working drivers > whilst they adapt them. So let us take a look at the list again: > sio(4), cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), uftdi(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), > ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4), umodem(4), dcons(4). Removing the drivers which have been fixed, or will be fixed in time: > cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), > rc(4), si(4). After I've committed the new TTY layer, I'm going to extend its design, so we can have hooks again, similar to the old line discipline idea. This has already been discussed. I'm also planning on reviving drivers like nmdm(4) and snp(4) by then. This means we've only got these drivers left: > cy(4), digi(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4). Who actually owns one of these devices? If you do, please contact me. If I didn't make myself clear enough: I *am* willing to (assist in porting|port) these drivers. --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --mz5eWKkhz39mMVQV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhtPAQACgkQ52SDGA2eCwVu3ACfUjReo68tT2bsXGyTlN61V5N4 btkAn1mJmQeu4u06jwN5qqMuKMnIPneR =nG3/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mz5eWKkhz39mMVQV-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 3 21:42:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B610F1065670 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 21:42:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sam@freebsd.org) Received: from ebb.errno.com (ebb.errno.com [69.12.149.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1878FC0C for ; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 21:42:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sam@freebsd.org) Received: from trouble.errno.com (trouble.errno.com [10.0.0.248]) (authenticated bits=0) by ebb.errno.com (8.13.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m63L9QJF080937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Jul 2008 14:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sam@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <486D4006.2050303@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:09:26 -0700 From: Sam Leffler Organization: FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Schouten References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> <20080703193406.GS29380@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> In-Reply-To: <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC--Metrics: ebb.errno.com; whitelist Cc: FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD Arch Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule [uart vs sio] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:42:00 -0000 Ed Schouten wrote: > Hello Peter, > > * Peter Jeremy wrote: > >> On 2008-Jul-02 21:09:01 +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: >> >>> + The new pseudo-terminal driver is capable of garbage collecting unused >>> PTY's. Because PTY's are never recycled, they are a lot more robust >>> (they are always initialized the same, no need to revoke() them before >>> usage, etc). >>> >> When you say 'never recycled', does this include the PTY number? If >> so, long running busy systems are going to get some fairly large >> numbers. When will the PTY number wrap? What is the impact on tools >> (eg ps, w) that assume they can represent a PTY in a small number of >> digits? What about utmp(5) which uses PTY number in the index? >> > > PTY's are deallocated when unused, which means the PTY number is reused > when possible. We still enfore the 1000 PTY limit, because utmp(5) only > supports line names of eight bytes long ("pts/999\0"). > > >>> - Not all drivers have been ported to the new TTY layer yet. These >>> drivers still need to be ported: sio(4), cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), >>> uftdi(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4), >>> umodem(4), dcons(4). >>> >>> Even though drivers are very important to have, I am convinced we can >>> get these working not long after the code as been integrated. ... >>> If you really care about one of these drivers, >>> please port it to the new TTY layer as soon as possible! >>> >> IMHO, this is not a reasonable approach: "Hi everyone. I'm going to >> break infrastructure that a whole bunch of drivers depend on. If you >> don't fix your drivers in the next few weeks then I'll disconnect >> them". Either you need to provide compatibility shims (possibly >> temporary and not MPSAFE) or you need to be far more pro-active in >> assisting with porting existing consumers of the TTY layer. >> > > Well, even though I'd rather let other people assess me, I think I've > been very proactive so far. As you can see, I sent my email to the list > two days ago. In those two days I've fixed both umodem(4) and uftdi(4) > to work with the new TTY layer again. > > >>> TTY layer into our kernel. I would really appreciate it if I could get >>> this code in before the end of the summer break, because I've got heaps >>> of spare time to fix any problems then. >>> >> That's all very nice but what about the maintainers of all the other >> drivers that you are impacting? >> >> >>> sio(4) has not been ported to the new TTY layer and is very hard >>> to do so. >>> >> This is the only mention of how much effort is involved in porting a >> driver to use the MPSAFE TTY layer and "very hard" is not a good start. >> I can't quickly find any documentation on how to go about porting an >> existing driver - definitely there are no section 9 man pages describing >> the new API in your patchset. >> > > Well, sio(4) isn't impossible to port to the new TTY layer, but the > first thing I noticed when I was hacking on the TTY layer during my > internship, was that the uart(4) code was so easy to read, I only had to > alter a single 396 line C file containing all the TTY interaction, while > the sio(4) was somewhat (tenfold) more complex. > > But I just got told sio(4) is required for pc98, because uart(4) is not > supported there. This means I'll seriously consider porting sio(4) one > of these days. It's no biggie, even though I think someone could better > take the effort to extend uart(4). > I would suggest first investigating how difficult it is to port uart to pc98. Given that we're broadening our platform support having a single serial driver seems preferable. > The same with dcons(4). Even though I don't have any hardware to test it > personally, I'll try to make sure we'll get it working in time. > I believe dcons is important and there are many people that can pitch in on this driver so I'm less worried about it. FWIW I'm 100% behind you on moving this stuff forward. This is a large project and you cannot be expected to do it by yourself. In the case of platform-specific requirements (like pc98) where you won't have access to equipment I think it's fair to request platform maintainers help. > >> IMHO, if you can't commit fixed drivers along with the MPSAFE TTY >> layer, a more reasonable schedule is to replace the existing TTY layer >> with an MPSAFE TTY layer that includes compatibility shims. If the >> shims make things non-MPSAFE (which is likely) then warn that they >> will be going away in (say) six months. This gives developers a more >> reasonable timeframe in which to update, as well as working drivers >> whilst they adapt them. >> > > So let us take a look at the list again: > > >> sio(4), cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), uftdi(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), >> ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4), umodem(4), dcons(4). >> > > Removing the drivers which have been fixed, or will be fixed in time: > > >> cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), >> rc(4), si(4). >> > > After I've committed the new TTY layer, I'm going to extend its design, > so we can have hooks again, similar to the old line discipline idea. > This has already been discussed. I'm also planning on reviving drivers > like nmdm(4) and snp(4) by then. This means we've only got these > drivers left: > > >> cy(4), digi(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4). >> > > Who actually owns one of these devices? If you do, please contact me. If > I didn't make myself clear enough: I *am* willing to (assist in > porting|port) these drivers. > > digi is perhaps most important in this list but I think you should expect other folks to help. Sam From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 00:30:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4D2106566C; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:30:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A03B8FC20; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 00:30:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7DAF46C1A; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 01:30:18 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: arch@FreeBSD.org, net@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20080526102345.G26343@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <20080704012901.U90881@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080526102345.G26343@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Subject: Re: Remaining non-MPSAFE netisr handlers X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:30:19 -0000 On Mon, 26 May 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > In the continuing campaign to eliminate the Giant lock from the dregs of the > network stack, I thought I'd send out a list of non-MPSAFE netisr handlers: > > Location Handler Removed with IFF_NEEDSGIANT > dev/usb/usb_ethersubr.c:120 usbintr Yes > net/if_ppp.c:277 pppintr Yes > netinet6/ip6_input.c ip6_input No > > The plan for 8.0 is to remove the NETISR_MPSAFE flag -- all netisr handlers > will be executed without the Giant lock. This doesn't prohibit acquiring > Giant in the handler if required, although that's undesirable for the > obvious reasons (potentially stalling interrupt handling, etc). Obviously, > what would be most desirable is eliminating the remaining requirement for > Giant in the IPv6 input path, primarily consisting of mld6 and nd6. > > With this in mind, my current plan is to remove the flag and add explicit > Giant acquisition for any remaining handlers in June when IFF_NEEDSGIANT > device drivers are disabled. I've now removed the NETISR_MPSAFE flag -- all netisr handlers are now assumed to DTRT with respect to locking. At least until usb and ppp are sorted out, I've introduced NETISR_FORCEQUEUE as an interim measure, which allows protocols to request that they always operate the deferred dispatch, meaning they can acquire Giant if they need to, and modified those two to do so. That should go away by 8.0 also. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 01:49:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959B11065670; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 01:49:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpoutm.mac.com (smtpoutm.mac.com [17.148.16.72]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9D18FCA1; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 01:49:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from asmtp012-bge351000.mac.com (asmtp012-bge351000 [10.150.69.75]) by smtpoutm.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout009/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id m641nnsG010336; Thu, 3 Jul 2008 18:49:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Received: from [192.168.1.102] (209-128-86-226.BAYAREA.NET [209.128.86.226]) by asmtp012.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-6.03 (built Mar 14 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0K3G00KC7L30VF20@asmtp012.mac.com>; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <993E865A-A426-4036-9E09-A87D7474DE80@mac.com> From: Marcel Moolenaar To: Sam Leffler In-reply-to: <486D4006.2050303@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:49:47 -0700 References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> <20080703193406.GS29380@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> <486D4006.2050303@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) Cc: FreeBSD Arch , Ed Schouten , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule [uart vs sio] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 01:49:49 -0000 On Jul 3, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Sam Leffler wrote: >> But I just got told sio(4) is required for pc98, because uart(4) is >> not >> supported there. This means I'll seriously consider porting sio(4) >> one >> of these days. It's no biggie, even though I think someone could >> better >> take the effort to extend uart(4). >> > > I would suggest first investigating how difficult it is to port uart > to pc98. Given that we're broadening our platform support having a > single serial driver seems preferable. I looked into it in 2003 but since I don't have any hardware, I wasn't the one able to do it. I think the fundamental problem is that the BRG is not part of the UART itself and needs a separate handle or even (tag, handle) pair to access. That's as far as I know the only big thing about the work. For me not having access to the hardware is a showstopper for looking into it myself. -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 02:21:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F46106564A; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 02:21:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail35.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail35.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.133.51]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84F38FC1E; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 02:21:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c122-106-215-175.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.215.175]) by mail35.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m642LPmI027222 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:21:27 +1000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m642LP3j032579; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:21:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m642LPWp032578; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:21:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:21:25 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Ed Schouten Message-ID: <20080704022125.GA32475@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> <20080703193406.GS29380@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: FreeBSD Arch , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 02:21:49 -0000 --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ed, Thanks for your response. On 2008-Jul-03 22:52:20 +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: >Well, even though I'd rather let other people assess me, I think I've >been very proactive so far. As you can see, I sent my email to the list >two days ago. In those two days I've fixed both umodem(4) and uftdi(4) >to work with the new TTY layer again. And I don't expect you to do all the work yourself - you can't be expected to test hardware you don't have. But where is the documentation to let someone else adapt the drivers? >> cy(4), digi(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4). > >Who actually owns one of these devices? If you do, please contact me. If >I didn't make myself clear enough: I *am* willing to (assist in >porting|port) these drivers. I have access to a Digi Xem boards at work and have poked around inside the digi(4) code in the past. My difficulty is that the cards are all in use and upgrading to a FreeBSD-current that doesn't support them and then porting the driver is probably not an option (whereas converting it from using shims to access the TTY layer to doing so directly would probably be acceptable - because I can get the board going again in a hurry if needed). I can't help with any of the others, sorry. --=20 Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhtiSUACgkQ/opHv/APuIcPxACgoXjGnN5twMkRBUf63f+nXmMJ S8wAoIpB4WxR0j4p/+KJOwJqeFZmtNQc =9A2i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 09:22:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19801065677; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:610:652::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 702F78FC21; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C82851CC64; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:22:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:22:44 +0200 From: Ed Schouten To: Peter Jeremy Message-ID: <20080704092244.GY14567@hoeg.nl> References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> <20080703193406.GS29380@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> <20080704022125.GA32475@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sKosZo66cxuwvnFI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080704022125.GA32475@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: FreeBSD Arch , FreeBSD Current , Philip Paeps Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:22:45 -0000 --sKosZo66cxuwvnFI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Peter, * Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2008-Jul-03 22:52:20 +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > >Well, even though I'd rather let other people assess me, I think I've > >been very proactive so far. As you can see, I sent my email to the list > >two days ago. In those two days I've fixed both umodem(4) and uftdi(4) > >to work with the new TTY layer again. >=20 > And I don't expect you to do all the work yourself - you can't be > expected to test hardware you don't have. But where is the documentation > to let someone else adapt the drivers? Well, right now documentation on the KPI is one of the things that is missing. As you mentioned in your first email, I am planning to add several man9 pages, but so far I haven't found any time to write them. I think there are already various (very small) drivers that could be used as examples. Below is a list of files, including their size in lines: | 241 /sys/dev/ofw/ofw_console.c | 181 /sys/ia64/ia64/ssc.c | 371 /sys/sun4v/sun4v/hvcons.c > >> cy(4), digi(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4). > > > >Who actually owns one of these devices? If you do, please contact me. If > >I didn't make myself clear enough: I *am* willing to (assist in > >porting|port) these drivers. >=20 > I have access to a Digi Xem boards at work and have poked around > inside the digi(4) code in the past. My difficulty is that the cards > are all in use and upgrading to a FreeBSD-current that doesn't support > them and then porting the driver is probably not an option (whereas > converting it from using shims to access the TTY layer to doing so > directly would probably be acceptable - because I can get the board > going again in a hurry if needed). The problem with the old TTY layer, is that drivers tend to access the internals of the TTY structure very often. A good example of this is the clists, where TTY drivers tamper around inside the clist and cblock structures. There is not much room to implement a compatibility layer there. The digi(4) code shouldn't be very hard to port. As I said before, I am considering making most drivers at least compile before the code hits the tree, which should make it a lot easier for people to get their things working again. Yours, --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --sKosZo66cxuwvnFI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkht6+QACgkQ52SDGA2eCwXz7wCfRAlAhWFJgjBxW7hZUBExfOPi HrkAninxCBEUUS7jyOACE+BnpysrUCDW =b5xi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sKosZo66cxuwvnFI-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 09:41:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165E0106568A for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:41:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.246]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0ED28FC16 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:41:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b33so264295ana.13 for ; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 02:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.139.20 with SMTP id m20mr272649and.135.1215162777449; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 02:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.45.17 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 02:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 02:12:57 -0700 From: "Peter Wemm" To: "Ed Schouten" In-Reply-To: <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> <20080703193406.GS29380@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> Cc: FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD Arch Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:41:08 -0000 On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Ed Schouten wrote: [..] >> cy(4), digi(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4). > > Who actually owns one of these devices? If you do, please contact me. If > I didn't make myself clear enough: I *am* willing to (assist in > porting|port) these drivers. I use si extensively. For example: si0: port 0xd800-0xd87f mem 0xefffd000-0xefffd07f,0xeffe0000-0xeffeffff irq 18 at device 8.0 on pci1 si0: [GIANT-LOCKED] si0: PLX register 0x50: 0x18044000 changed to 0x18260000 si0: card: SXPCI, ports: 8, modules: 1, type: 40 (XIO) I'll be happy to take a shot at it but I'll need a few hints or worked examples. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; KI6FJV "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 "If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution." -- Robert Sewell From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 12:32:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C9C1065670; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:32:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78448FC12; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:32:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m64CVulE033146; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:31:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:33:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20080704.063348.-1967689426.imp@bsdimp.com> To: ed@80386.nl From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, philip@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:32:40 -0000 In message: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> Ed Schouten writes: : - Not all drivers have been ported to the new TTY layer yet. These : drivers still need to be ported: sio(4), cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), : uftdi(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4), : umodem(4), dcons(4). I have cy hardware available. I also have uftdi and umodem hardware. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 12:36:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FD61065673; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:36:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46968FC1B; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:36:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m64CZ3ud033182; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:35:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:36:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20080704.063655.-1977529554.imp@bsdimp.com> To: ed@80386.nl From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> <20080703193406.GS29380@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:36:15 -0000 In message: <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> Ed Schouten writes: : > cy(4), digi(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4). : : Who actually owns one of these devices? If you do, please contact me. If : I didn't make myself clear enough: I *am* willing to (assist in : porting|port) these drivers. I can send you cy(4) hardware (both PCI and ISA) if you'd like. I have no time, however, to assist in the porting. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 12:36:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAFAA10656EB; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:36:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F638FC2B; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:36:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m64CXlbI033174; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:33:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:35:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> To: xcllnt@mac.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <993E865A-A426-4036-9E09-A87D7474DE80@mac.com> References: <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> <486D4006.2050303@freebsd.org> <993E865A-A426-4036-9E09-A87D7474DE80@mac.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, sam@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, ed@80386.nl Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule [uart vs sio] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:36:23 -0000 In message: <993E865A-A426-4036-9E09-A87D7474DE80@mac.com> Marcel Moolenaar writes: : : On Jul 3, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Sam Leffler wrote: : : >> But I just got told sio(4) is required for pc98, because uart(4) is : >> not : >> supported there. This means I'll seriously consider porting sio(4) : >> one : >> of these days. It's no biggie, even though I think someone could : >> better : >> take the effort to extend uart(4). : >> : > : > I would suggest first investigating how difficult it is to port uart : > to pc98. Given that we're broadening our platform support having a : > single serial driver seems preferable. : : I looked into it in 2003 but since I don't have any hardware, : I wasn't the one able to do it. I think the fundamental problem : is that the BRG is not part of the UART itself and needs a : separate handle or even (tag, handle) pair to access. That's as : far as I know the only big thing about the work. : : For me not having access to the hardware is a showstopper for : looking into it myself. Do you need physical access? I have a pc98 machine I can put back on the network. It has the 8251 chip in it. It also has a 16550 part as well since it is a later model which had both... I believe that uart works for the 16550 part, but haven't tried it lately... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 13:12:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6AD1106567A; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 13:12:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp (watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp [133.80.152.80]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 814268FC2F; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 13:12:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp (unknown) with ESMTP id m64DCSnN088088; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 22:12:28 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:10:43 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20080704.221043.226715262.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> To: imp@bsdimp.com From: Takahashi Yoshihiro In-Reply-To: <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <486D4006.2050303@freebsd.org> <993E865A-A426-4036-9E09-A87D7474DE80@mac.com> <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.1 on Emacs 22.2 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ed@80386.nl, arch@freebsd.org, sam@freebsd.org, xcllnt@mac.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule [uart vs sio] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:12:54 -0000 In article <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> "M. Warner Losh" writes: > Do you need physical access? I have a pc98 machine I can put back on > the network. It has the 8251 chip in it. It also has a 16550 part as > well since it is a later model which had both... > > I believe that uart works for the 16550 part, but haven't tried it > lately... The uart probably works for some 16550 based devices but does not work for other one like multi-port devices. --- TAKAHASHI Yoshihiro From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 14:57:39 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E871065675 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:57:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cokane@freebsd.org) Received: from QMTA05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.48]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784238FC16 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:57:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cokane@freebsd.org) Received: from OMTA03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.27]) by QMTA05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id lmnE1Z00S0bG4ec550DE00; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:41:38 +0000 Received: from mail.cokane.org ([24.60.133.163]) by OMTA03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id lqhe1Z0033Xh0XL3Pqheid; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:41:38 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=Q3YcSn_Cu3GmsPkbGIkA:9 a=yQLDE9hupRXwOqXHYPhLv_vgdw4A:4 a=LY0hPdMaydYA:10 a=03jPog0GlyZC3kp9EycA:9 a=L-G6u1T390UKRmHcO0PoAD8W19UA:4 a=rPt6xJ-oxjAA:10 Received: by mail.cokane.org (Postfix, from userid 103) id 20BCE1DB2FA; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:41:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8-gr1 (2007-02-13) on discordia X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8-gr1 Received: from [172.20.1.3] (erwin.int.cokane.org [172.20.1.3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.cokane.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A071DB2F9; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:41:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Coleman Kane To: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20080704.063348.-1967689426.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> <20080704.063348.-1967689426.imp@bsdimp.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-TQtiRStEYAm1HmHL//GI" Organization: FreeBSD Project Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:39:19 -0400 Message-Id: <1215182359.2446.27.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: ed@80386.nl, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, philip@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:57:39 -0000 --=-TQtiRStEYAm1HmHL//GI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2008-07-04 at 06:33 -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <20080702190901.GS14567@hoeg.nl> > Ed Schouten writes: > : - Not all drivers have been ported to the new TTY layer yet. These > : drivers still need to be ported: sio(4), cy(4), digi(4), ubser(4), > : uftdi(4), nmdm(4), ng_h4(4), ng_tty(4), snp(4), rp(4), rc(4), si(4), > : umodem(4), dcons(4). >=20 > I have cy hardware available. I also have uftdi and umodem hardware. >=20 > Warner FWIW, I think that many mobile phones of the Motorola variety, when used with the USB adapter, will use the umodem driver. I am not sure of other phones though, as I've only gone through about 4 generations of Motorola hardware since ~2003. --=20 Coleman Kane --=-TQtiRStEYAm1HmHL//GI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkhuNhQACgkQcMSxQcXat5doggCePH15vk8CZ5cZsNAuv60Ad+Xx Zu4An3wX4ND7efBxj/6BqPL9+zHGUVGn =eH4C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-TQtiRStEYAm1HmHL//GI-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 19:42:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069F01065677; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:42:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpoutm.mac.com (smtpoutm.mac.com [17.148.16.69]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2EC8FC12; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:42:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from asmtp016-bge351000.mac.com (asmtp016-bge351000 [10.150.69.79]) by smtpoutm.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout006/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id m64JgafL025753; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:42:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.102] (209-128-86-226.BAYAREA.NET [209.128.86.226]) by asmtp016.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-6.03 (built Mar 14 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0K3H00LASYQZWJ90@asmtp016.mac.com>; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: From: Marcel Moolenaar To: "M. Warner Losh" In-reply-to: <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:42:35 -0700 References: <20080703205220.GW14567@hoeg.nl> <486D4006.2050303@freebsd.org> <993E865A-A426-4036-9E09-A87D7474DE80@mac.com> <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) Cc: arch@freebsd.org, sam@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, ed@80386.nl Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule [uart vs sio] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 19:42:37 -0000 On Jul 4, 2008, at 5:35 AM, M. Warner Losh wrote: > : I looked into it in 2003 but since I don't have any hardware, > : I wasn't the one able to do it. I think the fundamental problem > : is that the BRG is not part of the UART itself and needs a > : separate handle or even (tag, handle) pair to access. That's as > : far as I know the only big thing about the work. > : > : For me not having access to the hardware is a showstopper for > : looking into it myself. > > Do you need physical access? No, not at all. As long as the USART is connected to another UART that I can access and as long as I can load/unload the uart(4) module, I should be able to write the support for it. Even only restricted sudo(1) should be fine. > I have a pc98 machine I can put back on > the network. It has the 8251 chip in it. It also has a 16550 part as > well since it is a later model which had both... Perfect. A null-modem cable between the two of them and I should be all set. -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 19:50:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1161106567A; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:50:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpoutm.mac.com (smtpoutm.mac.com [17.148.16.82]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852D18FC25; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:50:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from asmtp019-bge351000.mac.com (asmtp019-bge351000 [10.150.69.82]) by smtpoutm.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout019/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id m64JoXrA022517; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:50:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Received: from [192.168.1.102] (209-128-86-226.BAYAREA.NET [209.128.86.226]) by asmtp019.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-6.03 (built Mar 14 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0K3H00DT3Z48Q020@asmtp019.mac.com>; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <29489C48-93A2-41D9-9EF1-5395A673A9B3@mac.com> From: Marcel Moolenaar To: Takahashi Yoshihiro In-reply-to: <20080704.221043.226715262.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:50:31 -0700 References: <486D4006.2050303@freebsd.org> <993E865A-A426-4036-9E09-A87D7474DE80@mac.com> <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> <20080704.221043.226715262.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) Cc: ed@80386.nl, arch@freebsd.org, sam@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule [uart vs sio] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 19:50:34 -0000 On Jul 4, 2008, at 6:10 AM, Takahashi Yoshihiro wrote: > In article <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> > "M. Warner Losh" writes: > >> Do you need physical access? I have a pc98 machine I can put back on >> the network. It has the 8251 chip in it. It also has a 16550 part >> as >> well since it is a later model which had both... >> >> I believe that uart works for the 16550 part, but haven't tried it >> lately... > > The uart probably works for some 16550 based devices but does not work > for other one like multi-port devices. The design principle of uart(4) is that it does not know about multi-port hardware. It controls a single serial port only. For multi-port hardware you must have multiple nodes on a bus or use an umbrella driver, such as puc(4), quicc(4) or scc(4). Those drivers provide attachments for every port. I suspect that support for multi-port devices is not to hard to do on pc98... -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 5 12:25:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C311065678; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:25:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp (watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp [133.80.152.80]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8083D8FC14; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:25:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by watery.cc.kogakuin.ac.jp (unknown) with ESMTP id m65CPKSe053473; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 21:25:20 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 21:24:22 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20080705.212422.226755141.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> To: xcllnt@mac.com From: Takahashi Yoshihiro In-Reply-To: <29489C48-93A2-41D9-9EF1-5395A673A9B3@mac.com> References: <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> <20080704.221043.226715262.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> <29489C48-93A2-41D9-9EF1-5395A673A9B3@mac.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.1 on Emacs 22.2 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ed@80386.nl, sam@freebsd.org, imp@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule [uart vs sio] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:25:42 -0000 In article <29489C48-93A2-41D9-9EF1-5395A673A9B3@mac.com> Marcel Moolenaar writes: > > The uart probably works for some 16550 based devices but does not work > > for other one like multi-port devices. > > The design principle of uart(4) is that it does not know > about multi-port hardware. It controls a single serial > port only. For multi-port hardware you must have multiple > nodes on a bus or use an umbrella driver, such as puc(4), > quicc(4) or scc(4). Those drivers provide attachments for > every port. > > I suspect that support for multi-port devices is not to > hard to do on pc98... Many serial devices on pc98 use indirect I/O space, so resource management is quite complex. Therefore, it may need more work you think. At the starting point, I have added CBus frontend and fixed console support for pc98. http://home.jp.freebsd.org/~nyan/patches/uart_pc98.diff.bz2 --- TAKAHASHI Yoshihiro From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 5 16:04:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54BE1065671; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 16:04:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpoutm.mac.com (smtpoutm.mac.com [17.148.16.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93CB98FC18; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 16:04:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from asmtp020-bge351000.mac.com (asmtp020-bge351000 [10.150.69.83]) by smtpoutm.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout018/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id m65G4xAl026393; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 09:04:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Received: from [192.168.1.102] (209-128-86-226.BAYAREA.NET [209.128.86.226]) by asmtp020.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-6.03 (built Mar 14 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0K3J00A33JCAVLA0@asmtp020.mac.com>; Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <254B5D19-E08A-43A0-AB76-43299C4AD77C@mac.com> From: Marcel Moolenaar To: Takahashi Yoshihiro In-reply-to: <20080705.212422.226755141.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:04:58 -0700 References: <20080704.063540.1210476607.imp@bsdimp.com> <20080704.221043.226715262.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> <29489C48-93A2-41D9-9EF1-5395A673A9B3@mac.com> <20080705.212422.226755141.nyan@jp.FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) Cc: ed@80386.nl, sam@freebsd.org, imp@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MPSAFE TTY schedule [uart vs sio] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:04:59 -0000 On Jul 5, 2008, at 5:24 AM, Takahashi Yoshihiro wrote: > In article <29489C48-93A2-41D9-9EF1-5395A673A9B3@mac.com> > Marcel Moolenaar writes: > >>> The uart probably works for some 16550 based devices but does not >>> work >>> for other one like multi-port devices. >> >> The design principle of uart(4) is that it does not know >> about multi-port hardware. It controls a single serial >> port only. For multi-port hardware you must have multiple >> nodes on a bus or use an umbrella driver, such as puc(4), >> quicc(4) or scc(4). Those drivers provide attachments for >> every port. >> >> I suspect that support for multi-port devices is not to >> hard to do on pc98... > > Many serial devices on pc98 use indirect I/O space, so resource > management is quite complex. Therefore, it may need more work you > think. I'm not sure I understand exactly what that means. Can you elaborate? > At the starting point, I have added CBus frontend and fixed console > support for pc98. Great, thanks! Could you commit sys/pc98/include/bus.h and sys/pc98/pc98/busiosubr.c at your earliest convenience. That code has to be in the kernel if I were to work on the uart module. Thanks, -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com