From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 3 06:36:55 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596C8106566C; Sun, 3 Jan 2010 06:36:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36818FC14; Sun, 3 Jan 2010 06:36:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o036aUmA071289; Sat, 2 Jan 2010 23:36:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes From: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <71177.1262471841@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 23:36:30 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <71177.1262471841@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ulrich_Sp=F6rlein?= , Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Julian Elischer , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Pieter de Goeje , Alexander Motin Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2010 06:36:55 -0000 On Jan 2, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <4B3FC8A2.1090901@elischer.org>, Julian Elischer writes: >> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> You overlook that MBR/Fdisk requires bootable slices to start at a >>> "track". That means that the propper slice-alignmen typically >>> will be 8*63=504 sectors. >> >> No it doesn't, (or at least it didn't) but it has become custom to >> do so. > > Yes it does, for all slices not starting on the first head. > > We've been over this maddness in the past multiple times. Julian is correct, LBA and packet mode has left the CHS madness as nothing more than a historical blemish. For many many years, we set up our FreeBSD systems at Yahoo to create a bootable Slice 1 at sector 512, and it worked just fine. Given that we use a multitude of vendors and BIOSes, our sample size is fairly significant. IIRC, BIOS vendors switched to packet mode around 2001-2002, and maybe as late as 2003 for some late adopters, but certainly no later than that. That was 8-9 years ago, roughly half of FreeBSD's present age. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that packet mode has been a WHQL item since at least WinXP, and thus pretty much guaranteed to be present in the vast majority of operational hardware out there. Despite all of this, I do recognize and appreciate your concern for compatibility. That's why I really like John Baldwin's hybrid MBR+GPT solution, as it appears to bridge compatibility while breaking away from the CHS and MBR constraints. We switched to it at Yahoo several years ago, and it also works very well for us. Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 4 11:06:52 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABFD1065670 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:06:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF9D8FC1D for ; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:06:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o04B6qaN064818 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:06:52 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o04B6q8I064816 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:06:52 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 11:06:52 GMT Message-Id: <201001041106.o04B6q8I064816@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 11:06:52 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o kern/120749 arch [request] Suggest upping the default kern.ps_arg_cache 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 4 21:50:48 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E8F10656A6; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 21:50:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (unknown [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC138FC19; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 21:50:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.3/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o04LdOPW063172; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 14:40:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20100104.144005.262629641795617719.imp@bsdimp.com> To: dougb@FreeBSD.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <201001042130.o04LU4ln085140@svn.freebsd.org> References: <201001042130.o04LU4ln085140@svn.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3 on Emacs 22.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r201534 - in head/sys: amd64/conf arm/conf i386/conf ia64/conf mips/conf pc98/conf powerpc/conf sparc64/conf sun4v/conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:50:48 -0000 Doug (with arch@ cc'd) I'm sorry that I didn't notice this sooner and comment upon it. It is a really bad idea for a lot of reasons.. The DEFAULTS file is not for optional items. It is only for items that are required for all (or almost all) users of the system to build a working kernel. Including the config file isn't anywhere near required. In addition, changing it on a stable branch seems like a big default change. Finally, we're planning on deprecating this file entirely in the future, so no further changes should be made to it without discussion. I've reverted this after chatting on IRC with bz@ and ed@. I'm posting this to arch@ so that the followup discussion can take place. *IF* there is wide-spread consensus to add it back, I'll take care of that leg work (as well as anything I've overlooked in the back out). But I don't think there's wide-spread support for this in DEFAULTS... Warner In message: <201001042130.o04LU4ln085140@svn.freebsd.org> Warner Losh writes: : Author: imp : Date: Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 : New Revision: 201534 : URL: http://svn.freebsd.org/changeset/base/201534 : : Log: : Revert 200594. This file isn't intended for these sorts of things. : : Modified: : head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS : head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS : head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS : head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS : head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS : head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS : head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS : head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS : head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS : : Modified: head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -20,10 +20,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_BSD : options GEOM_PART_EBR : options GEOM_PART_EBR_COMPAT : options GEOM_PART_MBR : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : : Modified: head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -9,10 +9,3 @@ device mem : : options GEOM_PART_BSD : options GEOM_PART_MBR : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : : Modified: head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -28,10 +28,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_MBR : # enable support for native hardware : options NATIVE : device atpic : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : : Modified: head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -17,10 +17,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 : options GEOM_PART_BSD : options GEOM_PART_GPT : options GEOM_PART_MBR : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : : Modified: head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -11,10 +11,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 : : options GEOM_PART_BSD : options GEOM_PART_MBR : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : : Modified: head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -24,10 +24,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 : # Default partitioning schemes : options GEOM_PART_BSD : options GEOM_PART_PC98 : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : : Modified: head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -14,10 +14,3 @@ device uart_z8530 : : options GEOM_PART_APM : options GEOM_PART_MBR : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : : Modified: head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -19,10 +19,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_VTOC8 : : # Let sunkbd emulate an AT keyboard by default. : options SUNKBD_EMULATE_ATKBD : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : : Modified: head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS : ============================================================================== : --- head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : +++ head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : @@ -11,10 +11,3 @@ device mem # Memory and kernel memory : # Default partitioning schemes : options GEOM_PART_BSD : options GEOM_PART_VTOC8 : - : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : -# See config(8) for more details. : -# : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 4 22:17:12 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4E0106566C for ; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 22:17:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BCD8FC1F for ; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 22:17:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 4086 invoked by uid 399); 4 Jan 2010 22:17:11 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 4 Jan 2010 22:17:11 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B4268EB.3040905@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 14:17:15 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <201001042130.o04LU4ln085140@svn.freebsd.org> <20100104.144005.262629641795617719.imp@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <20100104.144005.262629641795617719.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r201534 - in head/sys: amd64/conf arm/conf i386/conf ia64/conf mips/conf pc98/conf powerpc/conf sparc64/conf sun4v/conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:17:12 -0000 I originally proposed adding it to GENERIC because my sentiment was the same as yours on this. After posting the patch for review I was told by several people (whom I felt were better acquainted with sys/ than I) to add it to DEFAULTS instead, so I changed the patch and committed it, then MFC'ed it after an appropriate window. As far as whether to add it to "the default kernel configuration" (leaving aside what file it should go into for now) the discussion about that happened on -current in the vicinity of 12/13 where it received what I felt was pretty good support. Given that disk space is practically free on modern systems, and given the overwhelming utility of having at least the basic (without comments) config file included in the kernel for people who need to do real sysadmin work, I regard the question of whether or not it should go in as settled. (In fact, as I said in the thread I thought it had been done a long time ago.) I am however willing to wait a couple days for those on this list to offer an incredibly compelling reason why this would be a bad thing. My preference would actually be that it be added to GENERIC. I'll take you up on your offer and let you add it there if you have the time to do so. If you don't and I get to it first, no worries. Either way, I do want it done in time to be included in 7.3-RELEASE. In regards to your backing out the change without discussing it with me first, in this particular case there is no harm done, and ultimately I agree with your assessment that it's overwhelmingly likely that the end result will be that the change in DEFAULTS will not stay. However, this situation is far from an emergency (given that it had been the way it was for so long). Should a similar situation arise in the future as a general course of action I would prefer that the standard procedures be followed. Doug M. Warner Losh wrote: > Doug (with arch@ cc'd) > > I'm sorry that I didn't notice this sooner and comment upon it. It is > a really bad idea for a lot of reasons.. > > The DEFAULTS file is not for optional items. It is only for items > that are required for all (or almost all) users of the system to build > a working kernel. Including the config file isn't anywhere near > required. In addition, changing it on a stable branch seems like a > big default change. Finally, we're planning on deprecating this file > entirely in the future, so no further changes should be made to it > without discussion. > > I've reverted this after chatting on IRC with bz@ and ed@. > > I'm posting this to arch@ so that the followup discussion can take > place. *IF* there is wide-spread consensus to add it back, I'll take > care of that leg work (as well as anything I've overlooked in the > back out). But I don't think there's wide-spread support for this in > DEFAULTS... > > Warner > > In message: <201001042130.o04LU4ln085140@svn.freebsd.org> > Warner Losh writes: > : Author: imp > : Date: Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 > : New Revision: 201534 > : URL: http://svn.freebsd.org/changeset/base/201534 > : > : Log: > : Revert 200594. This file isn't intended for these sorts of things. > : > : Modified: > : head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS > : head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS > : head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS > : head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS > : head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS > : head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS > : head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS > : head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS > : head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS > : > : Modified: head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -20,10 +20,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_BSD > : options GEOM_PART_EBR > : options GEOM_PART_EBR_COMPAT > : options GEOM_PART_MBR > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > : Modified: head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -9,10 +9,3 @@ device mem > : > : options GEOM_PART_BSD > : options GEOM_PART_MBR > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > : Modified: head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -28,10 +28,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_MBR > : # enable support for native hardware > : options NATIVE > : device atpic > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > : Modified: head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -17,10 +17,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 > : options GEOM_PART_BSD > : options GEOM_PART_GPT > : options GEOM_PART_MBR > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > : Modified: head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -11,10 +11,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 > : > : options GEOM_PART_BSD > : options GEOM_PART_MBR > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > : Modified: head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -24,10 +24,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 > : # Default partitioning schemes > : options GEOM_PART_BSD > : options GEOM_PART_PC98 > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > : Modified: head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -14,10 +14,3 @@ device uart_z8530 > : > : options GEOM_PART_APM > : options GEOM_PART_MBR > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > : Modified: head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -19,10 +19,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_VTOC8 > : > : # Let sunkbd emulate an AT keyboard by default. > : options SUNKBD_EMULATE_ATKBD > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > : Modified: head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS > : ============================================================================== > : --- head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) > : +++ head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) > : @@ -11,10 +11,3 @@ device mem # Memory and kernel memory > : # Default partitioning schemes > : options GEOM_PART_BSD > : options GEOM_PART_VTOC8 > : - > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C > : -# See config(8) for more details. > : -# > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel > : > -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 4 23:06:59 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04AC106566C; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 23:06:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (unknown [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089E08FC15; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 23:06:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.3/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o04MrhgA064016; Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:53:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:54:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20100104.155425.497362415505643888.imp@bsdimp.com> To: dougb@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <4B4268EB.3040905@FreeBSD.org> References: <201001042130.o04LU4ln085140@svn.freebsd.org> <20100104.144005.262629641795617719.imp@bsdimp.com> <4B4268EB.3040905@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3 on Emacs 22.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r201534 - in head/sys: amd64/conf arm/conf i386/conf ia64/conf mips/conf pc98/conf powerpc/conf sparc64/conf sun4v/conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 23:06:59 -0000 In message: <4B4268EB.3040905@FreeBSD.org> Doug Barton writes: : I originally proposed adding it to GENERIC because my sentiment was : the same as yours on this. After posting the patch for review I was : told by several people (whom I felt were better acquainted with sys/ : than I) to add it to DEFAULTS instead, so I changed the patch and : committed it, then MFC'ed it after an appropriate window. : : As far as whether to add it to "the default kernel configuration" : (leaving aside what file it should go into for now) the discussion : about that happened on -current in the vicinity of 12/13 where it : received what I felt was pretty good support. Given that disk space is : practically free on modern systems, and given the overwhelming utility : of having at least the basic (without comments) config file included : in the kernel for people who need to do real sysadmin work, I regard : the question of whether or not it should go in as settled. (In fact, : as I said in the thread I thought it had been done a long time ago.) I : am however willing to wait a couple days for those on this list to : offer an incredibly compelling reason why this would be a bad thing. Yes. I missed the original discussion in -current until today. I'm sorry about that. -current is a high volume list and I sometimes overlook things... : My preference would actually be that it be added to GENERIC. I'll take : you up on your offer and let you add it there if you have the time to : do so. If you don't and I get to it first, no worries. Either way, I : do want it done in time to be included in 7.3-RELEASE. I'll move the stuff to GENERIC (and other config files as appropriate for ppc, mips and arm). I have been doing prototyping in this area to try to make things better, but nothing quite ready to share. : In regards to your backing out the change without discussing it with : me first, in this particular case there is no harm done, and : ultimately I agree with your assessment that it's overwhelmingly : likely that the end result will be that the change in DEFAULTS will : not stay. However, this situation is far from an emergency (given that : it had been the way it was for so long). Should a similar situation : arise in the future as a general course of action I would prefer that : the standard procedures be followed. Yes. I think you are right here. I think that I jumped the gun a little. Too eager to start working in the new year. I'll be better about following procedure in the future. Sorry for any heartache this caused you. Warner : Doug : : : M. Warner Losh wrote: : > Doug (with arch@ cc'd) : > : > I'm sorry that I didn't notice this sooner and comment upon it. It is : > a really bad idea for a lot of reasons.. : > : > The DEFAULTS file is not for optional items. It is only for items : > that are required for all (or almost all) users of the system to build : > a working kernel. Including the config file isn't anywhere near : > required. In addition, changing it on a stable branch seems like a : > big default change. Finally, we're planning on deprecating this file : > entirely in the future, so no further changes should be made to it : > without discussion. : > : > I've reverted this after chatting on IRC with bz@ and ed@. : > : > I'm posting this to arch@ so that the followup discussion can take : > place. *IF* there is wide-spread consensus to add it back, I'll take : > care of that leg work (as well as anything I've overlooked in the : > back out). But I don't think there's wide-spread support for this in : > DEFAULTS... : > : > Warner : > : > In message: <201001042130.o04LU4ln085140@svn.freebsd.org> : > Warner Losh writes: : > : Author: imp : > : Date: Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 : > : New Revision: 201534 : > : URL: http://svn.freebsd.org/changeset/base/201534 : > : : > : Log: : > : Revert 200594. This file isn't intended for these sorts of things. : > : : > : Modified: : > : head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS : > : head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS : > : head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS : > : head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS : > : head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS : > : head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS : > : head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS : > : head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS : > : head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -20,10 +20,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_BSD : > : options GEOM_PART_EBR : > : options GEOM_PART_EBR_COMPAT : > : options GEOM_PART_MBR : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/arm/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -9,10 +9,3 @@ device mem : > : : > : options GEOM_PART_BSD : > : options GEOM_PART_MBR : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/i386/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -28,10 +28,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_MBR : > : # enable support for native hardware : > : options NATIVE : > : device atpic : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/ia64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -17,10 +17,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 : > : options GEOM_PART_BSD : > : options GEOM_PART_GPT : > : options GEOM_PART_MBR : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/mips/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -11,10 +11,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 : > : : > : options GEOM_PART_BSD : > : options GEOM_PART_MBR : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/pc98/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -24,10 +24,3 @@ device uart_ns8250 : > : # Default partitioning schemes : > : options GEOM_PART_BSD : > : options GEOM_PART_PC98 : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/powerpc/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -14,10 +14,3 @@ device uart_z8530 : > : : > : options GEOM_PART_APM : > : options GEOM_PART_MBR : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/sparc64/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -19,10 +19,3 @@ options GEOM_PART_VTOC8 : > : : > : # Let sunkbd emulate an AT keyboard by default. : > : options SUNKBD_EMULATE_ATKBD : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : Modified: head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS : > : ============================================================================== : > : --- head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:02:01 2010 (r201533) : > : +++ head/sys/sun4v/conf/DEFAULTS Mon Jan 4 21:30:04 2010 (r201534) : > : @@ -11,10 +11,3 @@ device mem # Memory and kernel memory : > : # Default partitioning schemes : > : options GEOM_PART_BSD : > : options GEOM_PART_VTOC8 : > : - : > : -# Store the plain version of the configuration file in the kernel itself. : > : -# To store the entire file, including comments, put this in /etc/src.conf: : > : -# CONFIGARGS= -C : > : -# See config(8) for more details. : > : -# : > : -options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # Include this file in kernel : > : : > : : : -- : : Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with : a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ : : Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. : -- Pablo Picasso : : From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 5 01:33:30 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19461065693 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 01:33:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from skip@menantico.com) Received: from vms173013pub.verizon.net (vms173013pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819358FC1F for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 01:33:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.menantico.com ([71.168.206.243]) by vms173013.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KVR00IPV0763RJ6@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net>; Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:33:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:40:30 -0500 From: Skip Ford To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-id: <20100105004030.GA1175@menantico.com> References: <201001042130.o04LU4ln085140@svn.freebsd.org> <20100104.144005.262629641795617719.imp@bsdimp.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline In-reply-to: <20100104.144005.262629641795617719.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, dougb@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r201534 - in head/sys: amd64/conf arm/conf i386/conf ia64/conf mips/conf pc98/conf powerpc/conf sparc64/conf sun4v/conf X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 01:33:30 -0000 M. Warner Losh wrote: > I'm sorry that I didn't notice this sooner and comment upon it. It is > a really bad idea for a lot of reasons.. > > The DEFAULTS file is not for optional items. It is only for items > that are required for all (or almost all) users of the system to build > a working kernel. Including the config file isn't anywhere near > required. In addition, changing it on a stable branch seems like a > big default change. Finally, we're planning on deprecating this file > entirely in the future, so no further changes should be made to it > without discussion. > > I've reverted this after chatting on IRC with bz@ and ed@. > > I'm posting this to arch@ so that the followup discussion can take > place. *IF* there is wide-spread consensus to add it back, I'll take > care of that leg work (as well as anything I've overlooked in the > back out). But I don't think there's wide-spread support for this in > DEFAULTS... In Doug's defense, I saw the discussion about it, and most who replied convinced him to do what he did. I don't think anyone, including me, spoke up to say what you say above, most likely because somebody would've just called the discussion a bikeshed, then grabbed their toys and gone home. IMO, there's just not much discussion or code review these days due to testy messages and development happening in non-public repositories, and that's what bit Doug. His original plan was fine. Thanks for taking your time to clean it up. And it's good to hear it's deprecated since this isn't the first time a widely-used or just very useful kernel option had to be backed out of the DEFAULTS file. -- Skip From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 5 14:51:39 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA09106568B; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:51:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517828FC0A; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:51:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.3/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o05EmqW0073989; Tue, 5 Jan 2010 07:48:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 07:49:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20100105.074935.914206331725098771.imp@bsdimp.com> To: rwatson@FreeBSD.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: References: <20100104.150257.746477001028363176.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3 on Emacs 22.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: May be include in GENERIC option INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:51:39 -0000 [[ moved to arch@, since the original discussion should have taken place there ]] In message: Robert Watson writes: : On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, M. Warner Losh wrote: : : > I'm planning on including standard files so that we can easily add : > things in one place instead of many that will be better than DEFAULTS : > in the next month or so. I've worked through several prototypes, none : > of which have been suitable to share with the wider world, but each : > one better than the one before... I'll post to arch@ when I have a : > proposal. : : Right, at this point what I'd really like to see is a : sys/conf/GENERIC, GENERIC.std or the like that we can add generic : things to in an MI fashion, which each architecture-specific GENERIC : can explicitly include. Yes. In general, I'm planning on having the following structure: std.board Most specific tweaking std.soc-family If appropriate std.core std.cpu std standard config for everybody Each layer would include the more generic thing and tweak it as necessary. Chances are there'd be multiple layers of "std"-ness, starting along a continum: "minimum" -> "everything-a-module defaults" -> "build-it-all-into-the-kernel defaults" -> "kitchen sink" -> "lint". However, having the ability to have that level of control gets a little trickier... One level of "bloat" is easy, but you start to run into problems if you want "bloat" to be tunable :) That's one axis of the problem. The other axis of the problem is including or excluding whole classes of devices. I don't want usb because my board has no USB at all. I want all of USB. I want all tty devices. I want all devices that are USB AND (wireless OR ethernet OR 3G). I want no SCSI controllers. I want all raid controllers. etc. One can try to attack this problem with include files, but it quickly falls down if you want to anything moderately complex (as in the last USB example above). This is where all my past overly-simplistic prototypes have faltered. It requires changes to config(8) that are fairly extensive because they affect config, as well as all the files* files in the tree, as well as needing some way to get the module dependencies that are enshrined in the .c files today... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 10:48:42 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE75D106566C; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 10:48:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FEA8FC0C; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 10:48:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A8F1FFC22; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 10:48:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 00644844C2; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:48:40 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Pieter de Goeje References: <65036.1262386032@critter.freebsd.dk> <201001020101.16450.pieter@degoeje.nl> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:48:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: <201001020101.16450.pieter@degoeje.nl> (Pieter de Goeje's message of "Sat, 2 Jan 2010 01:01:16 +0100") Message-ID: <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alexander Motin , Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 10:48:43 -0000 Pieter de Goeje writes: > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > Ideally, newfs/UFS should do a quick test to look for any obvious > > boundaries, and DTRT, a nice little task for somebody :-) > A search for the offset for which newfs (or a simpler test) runs > fastest? Interesting idea :-) Or just default to 4 kB or even 8 kB, which has zero performance impact (either way) for disks with 512 B sectors. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 11:04:52 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6D91065676; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:04:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from svein-listmail@stillbilde.net) Received: from mail.stillbilde.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:51af:3dc3:0:20c:29ff:fece:79f3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DD18FC13; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:04:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2002:51af:3dc3:0:7980:926d:3f39:5ae2] (unknown [IPv6:2002:51af:3dc3:0:7980:926d:3f39:5ae2]) (Authenticated sender: svein) by mail.stillbilde.net (Familien Skogens mail) with ESMTPSA id EB4FE22; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:04:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B446E52.4030508@stillbilde.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:04:50 +0100 From: "Svein Skogen (Listmail Account)" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <65036.1262386032@critter.freebsd.dk> <201001020101.16450.pieter@degoeje.nl> <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexander Motin , Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Pieter de Goeje Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:04:52 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Pieter de Goeje writes: >> Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >>> Ideally, newfs/UFS should do a quick test to look for any obvious >>> boundaries, and DTRT, a nice little task for somebody :-) >> A search for the offset for which newfs (or a simpler test) runs >> fastest? Interesting idea :-) > > Or just default to 4 kB or even 8 kB, which has zero performance impact > (either way) for disks with 512 B sectors. I'd like it to be tunable. Makes life so much easier for those of us who run raid controllers with adjustable stripe sizes. ;) //Svein - -- - --------+-------------------+------------------------------- /"\ |Svein Skogen | svein@d80.iso100.no \ / |Solberg Østli 9 | PGP Key: 0xE5E76831 X |2020 Skedsmokorset | svein@jernhuset.no / \ |Norway | PGP Key: 0xCE96CE13 | | svein@stillbilde.net ascii | | PGP Key: 0x58CD33B6 ribbon |System Admin | svein-listmail@stillbilde.net Campaign|stillbilde.net | PGP Key: 0x22D494A4 +-------------------+------------------------------- |msn messenger: | Mobile Phone: +47 907 03 575 |svein@jernhuset.no | RIPE handle: SS16503-RIPE - --------+-------------------+------------------------------- If you really are in a hurry, mail me at svein-mobile@stillbilde.net This mailbox goes directly to my cellphone and is checked even when I'm not in front of my computer. - ------------------------------------------------------------ Picture Gallery: https://gallery.stillbilde.net/v/svein/ - ------------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktEblIACgkQODUnwSLUlKQBtwCfQPeRckCkZhwmP2BhFVFhLCWC CdsAn23NL0D9qln18sT7RzGSRrworw7w =Sm5t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 11:12:51 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B87C1065694; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:12:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mavbsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f226.google.com (mail-ew0-f226.google.com [209.85.219.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656F48FC18; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:12:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy26 with SMTP id 26so15289457ewy.3 for ; Wed, 06 Jan 2010 03:12:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XzhHi7FS7TpYLV2ytum6yNcoYx7NCFKfaa+VoCpDqeU=; b=fKnqb5AxiWzgInFcOEP9vFCPeNNtBp3cvvbxoFONRsS63s85QRQqnrFcAcgUahm0Ps A6CZe5CmxY4qRU++x6P+hnggDD0yfKxa02hDM+ZcXsbI5j4SU/AerBE59H2m6kUgJ6mf JQyvBRoyzpvxQ/5MZ8l7+0AAB1fLekeW2nHqg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=pNd7NsOzauOtgrNu3eVT1111xXfbhJtnZkfnnyPI87kSv2/Zv8ZWlToirEo3hzevlN AJ/YTKYluwAjvCQHq2KK/NxbliUns5lrZu91CbEJCtQAk9CqrhzwXOT5yb1nt0iyEUaS lILKn3J51vL2Nj1c/mHdWo/D4I+wHTAZ5UgP0= Received: by 10.213.45.147 with SMTP id e19mr17541249ebf.17.1262776364839; Wed, 06 Jan 2010 03:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mavbook.mavhome.dp.ua ([72.14.240.162]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 10sm33944970eyd.37.2010.01.06.03.12.43 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 06 Jan 2010 03:12:44 -0800 (PST) Sender: Alexander Motin Message-ID: <4B44702B.9090503@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:12:43 +0200 From: Alexander Motin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091212) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <65036.1262386032@critter.freebsd.dk> <201001020101.16450.pieter@degoeje.nl> <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Pieter de Goeje Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:12:51 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Pieter de Goeje writes: >> Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >>> Ideally, newfs/UFS should do a quick test to look for any obvious >>> boundaries, and DTRT, a nice little task for somebody :-) >> A search for the offset for which newfs (or a simpler test) runs >> fastest? Interesting idea :-) > > Or just default to 4 kB or even 8 kB, which has zero performance impact > (either way) for disks with 512 B sectors. AFAIK it is what latest Windows'es do, just with bigger value. While it is usually good, I am not sure it is a perfect solution. These WDC HDDs with installed "XP compatibility" jumper artificially shift addresses, adding some offset between logical and physical sectors to fit legacy 63 sectors partition offset. Such case should be detected and handled. The only problem is that these drives doesn't report this info now. :( -- Alexander Motin From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 11:36:34 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829301065679; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:36:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40AB68FC1B; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:36:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E11F1FFC22; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:36:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C331E844C2; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:36:32 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Svein Skogen \(Listmail Account\)" References: <65036.1262386032@critter.freebsd.dk> <201001020101.16450.pieter@degoeje.nl> <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4B446E52.4030508@stillbilde.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:36:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4B446E52.4030508@stillbilde.net> (Svein Skogen's message of "Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:04:50 +0100") Message-ID: <86wrzvihxb.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alexander Motin , Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Pieter de Goeje Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:36:34 -0000 "Svein Skogen" writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Or just default to 4 kB or even 8 kB, which has zero performance impact > > (either way) for disks with 512 B sectors. > I'd like it to be tunable. It already *is* tunable, and always has been - it's just a matter of selecting the correct offsets and sizes when you partition the disk / array, and using the correct newfs parameters. The problem is the default alignment used by fdisk, gpart etc. Fdisk aligns slices on cylinder boundaries, even though cylinders are just a figment of the drive firmware's imagination. Sysinstall is even worse, since (IIRC) it *forces* cylinder alignment unless you select expert mode and type in the correct numbers. Marcel described the situation for gpart somewhere else in this thread. As for newfs, the defaults are fine as long as the filesystem doesn't fill up to the point where UFS starts using fragments - but when it does, you're in trouble anyway, so there's no point in overriding the defaults unless it makes sense for your data: a filesystem used mostly to store large files may benefit from increased block / fragment sizes, but remember to keep the 8:1 ratio. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 11:38:30 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104CA1065692; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:38:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29CE8FC13; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:38:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52C31FFC27; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:38:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BE34E844C2; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:38:28 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Dimitry Andric References: <65036.1262386032@critter.freebsd.dk> <201001020101.16450.pieter@degoeje.nl> <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4B44702B.9090503@FreeBSD.org> <4B4473B6.7030902@andric.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:38:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4B4473B6.7030902@andric.com> (Dimitry Andric's message of "Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:27:50 +0100") Message-ID: <86skajihu3.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alexander Motin , Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Pieter de Goeje Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:38:30 -0000 Dimitry Andric writes: > Yep, Windows 7 seems to align its partitions on 1 MiB by default... They > were always proponents of wasting your disk space for you. :) There are many reasons to criticize Microsoft and their products, but this is not one of them. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 11:45:42 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36971065697 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:45:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dimitry@andric.com) Received: from tensor.andric.com (tensor.andric.com [87.251.56.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948D08FC0C for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:45:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2001:7b8:3a7:0:f057:b5cb:d8a2:a766] (unknown [IPv6:2001:7b8:3a7:0:f057:b5cb:d8a2:a766]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tensor.andric.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4199C5C43; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:27:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B4473B6.7030902@andric.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:27:50 +0100 From: Dimitry Andric User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.2; en-US; rv:1.9.2b6pre) Gecko/20100103 Lanikai/3.1a1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander Motin References: <65036.1262386032@critter.freebsd.dk> <201001020101.16450.pieter@degoeje.nl> <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4B44702B.9090503@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4B44702B.9090503@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= , Pieter de Goeje Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 11:45:42 -0000 On 2010-01-06 12:12, Alexander Motin wrote: > AFAIK it is what latest Windows'es do, just with bigger value. Yep, Windows 7 seems to align its partitions on 1 MiB by default... They were always proponents of wasting your disk space for you. :) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 12:13:25 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CF0106566B; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:13:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dimitry@andric.com) Received: from tensor.andric.com (tensor.andric.com [87.251.56.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741C28FC15; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:13:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2001:7b8:3a7:0:f057:b5cb:d8a2:a766] (unknown [IPv6:2001:7b8:3a7:0:f057:b5cb:d8a2:a766]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tensor.andric.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 389BC5C43; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:13:23 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B447E67.3090307@andric.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:13:27 +0100 From: Dimitry Andric User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.2; en-US; rv:1.9.2b6pre) Gecko/20100103 Lanikai/3.1a1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <65036.1262386032@critter.freebsd.dk> <201001020101.16450.pieter@degoeje.nl> <86637fjypj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4B44702B.9090503@FreeBSD.org> <4B4473B6.7030902@andric.com> <86skajihu3.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86skajihu3.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Alexander Motin , Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Pieter de Goeje Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:13:25 -0000 On 2010-01-06 12:38, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: >> Yep, Windows 7 seems to align its partitions on 1 MiB by default... Th= ey >> were always proponents of wasting your disk space for you. :) > There are many reasons to criticize Microsoft and their products, but > this is not one of them. I was just kidding, of course. This alignment been chosen deliberately, since it should nicely encompass all stripe sizes supported by RAID controllers. And no need to ask the underlying device for its stripe or chunk size... From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 12:40:25 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BE6106568B for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:40:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0558FC20 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:40:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o06Ce7e0050541; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:40:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o06Ce74L050540; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:40:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:40:07 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <201001061240.o06Ce74L050540@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, des@des.no In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-arch User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:40:22 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:40:25 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > As for newfs, the defaults are fine as long as the filesystem doesn't > fill up to the point where UFS starts using fragments - but when it > does, you're in trouble anyway, so there's no point in overriding the > defaults unless it makes sense for your data: a filesystem used mostly > to store large files may benefit from increased block / fragment sizes, > but remember to keep the 8:1 ratio. I've created file systems with 1:1 ratio in the past for storing large files (multimedia stuff and similar), and with a very low inode density. So far I haven't encountered any problems. Is there a reason for not using a 1:1 ratio, and should I rebuild my file systems with 1:8 ratio? Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Clear perl code is better than unclear awk code; but NOTHING comes close to unclear perl code" (taken from comp.lang.awk FAQ) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 12:47:10 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F03B106566B for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:47:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016B38FC08 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:47:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3DB1FFC27; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:47:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C593384427; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:47:08 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Oliver Fromme References: <201001061240.o06Ce74L050540@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:47:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: <201001061240.o06Ce74L050540@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's message of "Wed, 6 Jan 2010 13:40:07 +0100 (CET)") Message-ID: <86ocl7h037.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:47:10 -0000 Oliver Fromme writes: > Is there a reason for not using a 1:1 ratio, and should I rebuild my > file systems with 1:8 ratio? You should ask Kirk or Poul Henning. ISTR there that of the FFS code assumed an 8:1 ratio. That has probably been fixed by now, but there are probably performance issues. If it works for you... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 15:44:13 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE8D1065692 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 15:44:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E266E8FC1A for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 15:44:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC5E1FFC22; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 15:44:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 074C6844DA; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 16:44:12 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Oliver Fromme References: <201001061240.o06Ce74L050540@lurza.secnetix.de> <86ocl7h037.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:44:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: <86ocl7h037.fsf@ds4.des.no> ("Dag-Erling =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8rg?= =?utf-8?Q?rav=22's?= message of "Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:47:08 +0100") Message-ID: <86ljgbfdbo.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:44:13 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > You should ask Kirk or Poul Henning. Ironic that I, of all people, should forget the hyphen in phk's name... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 16:59:50 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E96D106568B for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 16:59:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 613898FC19 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 16:59:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20F57E997; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 16:59:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o06Gxm9K013756; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 16:59:48 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:44:11 +0100." <86ljgbfdbo.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:59:48 +0000 Message-ID: <13755.1262797188@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Oliver Fromme , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:59:50 -0000 In message <86ljgbfdbo.fsf@ds4.des.no>, =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= wr ites: >Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: >> You should ask Kirk or Poul Henning. > >Ironic that I, of all people, should forget the hyphen in phk's name... When your own name is hyphenated, you should be very careful about hyphenating other peoples names needlessly, you might run out of hyphens and become unable to sign your own signature :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 17:53:47 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362E21065670; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:53:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27F18FC1A; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 17:53:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c122-106-170-81.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au (c122-106-170-81.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.170.81]) by mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o06HrOQG004970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 7 Jan 2010 04:53:27 +1100 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 04:53:24 +1100 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@delplex.bde.org To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <67020.1262425354@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: <20100107041552.D55224@delplex.bde.org> References: <67020.1262425354@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Ulrich =?utf-8?B?U3DDtnJsZWlu?= , Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Thomas Backman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Pieter de Goeje , Alexander Motin Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 17:53:47 -0000 On Sat, 2 Jan 2010, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20100102050843.GI3508@acme.spoerlein.net>, Ulrich =?utf-8?B?U3DDtnJ > sZWlu?= writes: > >> Sysinstall, fdisk, gpart >> and bsdlabel should all display some fat warning if partition/label >> alignment is not, say at 256kB (a common stripe size, right?) > > You overlook that MBR/Fdisk requires bootable slices to start at a > "track". That means that the propper slice-alignmen typically > will be 8*63=504 sectors. Only with a misconfigured "track" size of 63 512-byte sectors, as is typical. The default track size was 32 for SCSI disks about 20 years ago. This would have given 16KB alignment even with other misconfiguration. The "track" size used to be fully configurable (by typing it in to the BIOS) in BIOSes slightly less than 20 years old. Now it is not so configurable. The latest BIOS that I've used (not very late) only offers a few settings like AUTO, 63, 240 (?) and 255 (?) IIRC. GEOM axed the kernel's support for figuring out the BIOS geometry from the MBR if possible, so utilities now default to the "firmware" "track" size (which is 63 for all ATA disks less than about 10 years old), instead of the "track" size that is actually being used by the BIOS and was used previously run partitioning utilities, if any. BIOSes should have corresponding support under their AUTO setting, starting about 20 years ago with SCSI BIOSes (SCSI BIOSes needed this more since non-SCSI disks normally used their hardware geometry, while SCSI disks never had a hardware geometry). With MBR entries created by different partitioning utilities with inconsistent geometries, the AUTO-detection of a nonstandard geometry is likely to be wrong. This caused considerable confusion about 20 years ago with SCSI BIOSes, since the (fake) geometry was used more so it was important to fake it consistently, but the BIOSes were too primitive or inconsistent across manufacturers (BIOS in the host adaptor with severe size constraints) to do it consistently. Why only 8*63 for 252KB (4KB) alignment? 512*63 would give 256KB alignment and waste almost 16MB. 16*32 would give 256KB alignment with only 256KB-sizeof(MBR) wastage. > Unless you want to explore how many BIOS'es still are stupid about > this... If they are stupid enough to want a track offset, then they may be stupid enough to want a track offset of exactly 1. I haven't noticed any BIOSes or OSes that are stupid enough to want a track offset, but I might not have noticed since I always use a simple partitioning scheme except for debugging. Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 6 18:27:50 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D9D1065694 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 18:27:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mail09.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail09.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30998FC12 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 2010 18:27:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c122-106-170-81.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au (c122-106-170-81.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.170.81]) by mail09.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o06IRf6k007831 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:27:42 +1100 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:27:41 +1100 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@delplex.bde.org To: Oliver Fromme In-Reply-To: <201001061240.o06Ce74L050540@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: <20100107045335.N55224@delplex.bde.org> References: <201001061240.o06Ce74L050540@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1763835519-1262802461=:55224" Cc: des@des.no, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: File system blocks alignment X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:27:50 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1763835519-1262802461=:55224 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Wed, 6 Jan 2010, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > As for newfs, the defaults are fine as long as the filesystem doesn't > > fill up to the point where UFS starts using fragments - but when it > > does, you're in trouble anyway, so there's no point in overriding the > > defaults unless it makes sense for your data: a filesystem used mostly > > to store large files may benefit from increased block / fragment sizes, > > but remember to keep the 8:1 ratio. > > I've created file systems with 1:1 ratio in the past > for storing large files (multimedia stuff and similar), > and with a very low inode density. So far I haven't > encountered any problems. > > Is there a reason for not using a 1:1 ratio, and > should I rebuild my file systems with 1:8 ratio? Few, and few. No bugs are known, but 1:1 might be least efficient of all possible ratios. Using a ratio of other than 8:1 means that you don't trust ffs's fragmentation or clustering code. This is partly justified, but the effects of changing the ratio are tiny (except reducing it to 8:8 gives large inefficiencies if the block size is large) and very device-dependent. In my tests on fresh copies of /usr/src, a fragment size of 4K is best for all possible block sizes except 4K:4K (1:1 is generally slower) and 64K:4K (not supported). The best ratio was 8:1 for 32K:4K and the next best was 4:1 for 16K:4K. Only 64K:any and 32K:32K worked very inefficiently. (In theory, both 32K:any and 64K:any should work fairly inefficiently, due to fragmentation of the buffer cache, but I have only noticed this effect for 64K:any.) I once tried using 4K:4K for /home/ncvs, on the theory that this should reduce fragmentation, with filling in of fragments causing especially bad effects. (Aged ffs file systems normally have lots of external fragmentation, so that reads of an aged /home/ncvs typically take 5-10 times as long as for a new one.) This didn't work as expected -- the file system became slow anyway, and filled up sooner since the 4K:4K ratio is wasteful. Bruce --0-1763835519-1262802461=:55224-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 9 12:04:45 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73560106566B for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:04:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:613:100::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A30B8FC08 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 12:04:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 338411CDBC; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 13:04:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 13:04:44 +0100 From: Ed Schouten To: arch@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20100109120444.GW64905@hoeg.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AvHEjN7DoAM1hYpY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Subject: Replacing with X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:04:45 -0000 --AvHEjN7DoAM1hYpY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Some of you probably know that the last couple of weeks I've been slowly working on an implementation of for FreeBSD: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/utmpx.h.html This interface has the following differences when compared to our existing `API' described in : - It uses library functions to interact with the underlying storage, which means in theory one could use sockets, pigeons and what not to transmit the records, instead of being restricted to files on disk. - Instead of reserving various keywords to denote special messages (i.e. boot/shutdown time), it uses a field called ut_type, which is nice. - The role of ut_line is less important than it used to be. Instead of being used as an identifier of login sessions, this is now done using ut_id. This means you can perform user accounting of services that are not related to TTYs (e.g. FTP) by leaving ut_line blank. You can also store multiple records per TTY, which means using login(1) within a shell shouldn't clobber the existing accounting record. - Timestamps are represented as a struct timeval instead of an uint32_t, which means we gain microsecond precision. I'm not sure whether it's useful in practice, but it comes with the package. It also means we can make it work past 2038. My file format just stores the timestamps as an uint64_t holding the number of microseconds since 01-01-1970, which means it can go up to the year 586524. I'm planning on committing my utmpx implementation within a couple of weeks from now, so I thought I'd better send a message about it first, highlighting some of my design decisions. It would be nice if I could get most of our requirements in there, because I'd rather not change the API/file format too often. First of all, one of the biggest changes I'm going to make, is that I'm going to remove entirely. Most operating systems try to implement both utmp and utmpx, but this is not possible in our case. Those operating systems already provide library functions to update utmp files, so they can internally convert it to utmpx. We don't, which means we'll get two databases with the same purpose, only leading to confusion for the programmer/user/system administrator. Second, the POSIX interface only standardizes the utmpx interface, but no functions to update wtmp or lastlog. After some thinking I came to the conclusion that this is not a problem for us. My implementation of pututxline() already updates all the log files properly, improving their consistency. I only added two non-standard functions which can be used by our own applications in the base system to perform lookups on the wtmp and lastlog databases, called setutxdb() and getutxuser(). I think Robert Watson made a remark about backward/forward compatibility of the file format. Even though my solution is not bullet-proof, I think it should be good enough in practice. The database holding the active sessions (originally called `utmp', now called `utx.active') is always discarded when rebooting the system. The entire log file (`wtmp' or `utx.log') includes a length for each entry, which means we can safely resize the records. The last login database (`lastlog' or `utx.lastlogin') provides no compatibility mechanisms, but this will not be an issue in practice, because of its low importance. The file format is equal on both big and little endian systems. Right now the utmpx records provide little additional information over the old format (user, line, host, pid, tv). I have incremented the size of the fields, which means we can store 32 byte usernames and TTY names. Hostnames are now 128 bytes. Various people mentioned they would like to see additional fields to be added, such as a local and remote IP address. Be sure to mention this to me as soon as possible, because then I can include it before committing it. Here are some links to useful files inside my SVN branch: - http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/user/ed/utmpx/include/utmpx.h?view=3Dm= arkup - http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/user/ed/utmpx/lib/libc/gen/getutxent.c= ?view=3Dmarkup - http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/user/ed/utmpx/lib/libc/gen/pututxline.= c?view=3Dmarkup - http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/user/ed/utmpx/lib/libc/gen/utxdb.c?vie= w=3Dmarkup - http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/user/ed/utmpx/lib/libc/gen/utxdb.h?vie= w=3Dmarkup I've also stored a copy of a formatted man page online: - http://80386.nl/pub/getutxent.txt I've requested a ports exp-run to see how big the impact is. Some initial testing shows the amount of ports that break is little, but does affect some high-profile ports. I'll see what I can do to make the transition as easy as possible. --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --AvHEjN7DoAM1hYpY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAktIcNwACgkQ52SDGA2eCwWiEACff/N3Xma8NaP75vFeb8ovkOx5 M8EAnRE8+Q33s7MmwgRkmBLPPCHRT4I8 =pcL2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AvHEjN7DoAM1hYpY-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 9 16:45:47 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E140106568F for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 16:45:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3218FC19 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 16:45:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o09GjRd4039515; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 09:45:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes From: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <20100109120444.GW64905@hoeg.nl> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 09:45:26 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <20100109120444.GW64905@hoeg.nl> To: Ed Schouten X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.6 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing with X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 16:45:47 -0000 On Jan 9, 2010, at 5:04 AM, Ed Schouten wrote: > Hi all, > > Some of you probably know that the last couple of weeks I've been > slowly > working on an implementation of for FreeBSD: > > http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/utmpx.h.html > > This interface has the following differences when compared to our > existing `API' described in : > > Does this have any implications for the compat4x/5x/6x/7x/8x libraries that we ship? Also, what legacy apps that are statically compiled and touch utmp/wtmp? Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 9 19:45:28 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D3A106566B for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 19:45:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:613:100::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69CEC8FC0A for ; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 19:45:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 763341CDBC; Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:45:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:45:27 +0100 From: Ed Schouten To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20100109194527.GX64905@hoeg.nl> References: <20100109120444.GW64905@hoeg.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yRmRcZUEmv8Gpn4q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: FreeBSD Arch Subject: Re: Replacing with X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 19:45:28 -0000 --yRmRcZUEmv8Gpn4q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Scott Long wrote: > Does this have any implications for the compat4x/5x/6x/7x/8x > libraries that we ship? Also, what legacy apps that are statically > compiled and touch utmp/wtmp? Well, the issue is that nothing right now compiles against utmp/wtmp/etc. just provides a set of structures for the applications to use, no actual symbols. All applications just tinker with the files themselves, so there is no difference between dynamic and static linkage here. Nothing in libc uses or its database files. There are three functions in libutil that do that, namely login(3), logout(3) and logwtmp(3). These functions are not present in my branch, because they are hardly implementable on top of utmpx. This means I am going to increment libutil's major and let it be the way it is. I decided to just give up on trying to be compatible, because there is hardly anything we can do. --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --yRmRcZUEmv8Gpn4q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAktI3NcACgkQ52SDGA2eCwXrKQCfWTlcAJyJ+Z12FFCV13iIpSBv wyIAn24N92ydg35VDqQ2u0DEarf/2dmL =wCQ8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yRmRcZUEmv8Gpn4q--