From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Jul 21 16:48:30 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE440BA0231 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:48:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pfg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925E71195 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:48:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pfg@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8E022BA022F; Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:48:30 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9F0BA022D for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:48:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pfg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from nm9-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm9-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.213.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49BFA1194 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:48:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pfg@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1469119703; bh=aCXSTiWud93rBhmHSFJJpkIl+iiXCn470psT7cAalug=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=XV1x0Dp6X48PSHK4v6wzYkcR169fXWxV1h/QMLyQw3F62iQmnnufuPjF/Xya0ieamTUpd9a1C5P5HTUrymLI0JuEOtDlibp8wmhgH6TAC9rJlfyHyO5rYAq5cUpL5dPUaqvHYG7ppzYVTAD0fqtZzkE9D+10PsdEYZVLb244gSj/OyuM1tAsJyDLxOPwGusYiOplkFtD79t+UDFCbO409FjrUjeNlC3FvqNtH9ZpJItaNtq0y5cmKOwsu/38tOSW5V9ISAclr3/QSpODONCrvy07G2p4m7/QuRkcsJKnAI4FCY9Owuf0BwQRIO34IQWD71NHTBXvlKFMTtQlK7F6pQ== Received: from [98.139.170.178] by nm9.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Jul 2016 16:48:23 -0000 Received: from [68.142.230.72] by tm21.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Jul 2016 16:48:22 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp229.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Jul 2016 16:48:22 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 984261.77166.bm@smtp229.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 5hmgrm8VM1nwk5UqWQoU3mknAuromEbGsr8amDXLrM_f1aS cV.HAxZJh94vYaWE6BEEn8ZjmcjtN_U6skDq_o3xZhoSCsZ7IWk3zJgFM_F5 GAWQGWi_r1q7IKQzockucdF.Dy7NsVExnnBA0OIX7P82ZqkYpgoUa3uA9Wdf VALMas57dpCSSa9Rxw4aW8qvz05XrQ8.tPI8RynqabeKAdxD3OJXoj0MJ1X4 X6gLopNjlTPNskScEydW0M8cIIsiekn2F64q0gf1RHbpkW5K5V6sOsyC4rGm Yh826GMf06X1gQs.tH3XdbhyuPkojeHEYcc3NMDeGo6ZI32BzlEdW.okyb75 C7cA0ljcX_m.yWOKyDRlRyYJ1gmfKBrPuoNhK14KgFv21sywsRQdIIikiAgu 1wWbJQVTGnZnkV5zOw6wnufFIW26Uc.IuFQ3pwmWCFGqWYLskkBfYQLH87sD 74AFV22d6S01ozcEBjRoWCc2bheI2N_JoKcbXIdi00L9hStuJmCqRaBQGV__ BNrpmyKavLOZsjot8quPIRQysDk3bOYdjHGbumg.X18Ng5g-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xcjD0guswBAZaPPIbxpWwLcp9Unf To: chat@FreeBSD.org From: Pedro Giffuni Subject: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong .... Message-ID: <44e4450e-8dbb-f401-bd5c-df503f7a4ef8@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:48:27 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:48:30 -0000 Hello; I was in the process of preparing a port of bitkeeper and I found this: https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper "The BitKeeper history needs to be written up but the short version is that it happened because Larry wanted to help Linux not turn into a bunch of splintered factions like 386BSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, etc. He saw that the problem was one of tooling. ..." This actually made me laugh. Wrong problem and wrong tool to "fix" it. While CVS could have been seen as the wrong tool for just about anything, FreeBSD could have used perforce for "free" and still we would have a similar situation. The underlying issues IMHO was that of community affinity and developer interests, not of tooling. Back in the early days, the "splintering" of the BSDs might have been seen as an issue but as I see it now, it has been a blessing. I for one have no interest in adopting the OpenBSD approach towards security, to name just something some developers see as interesting, but I do see the idea of different teams trying new things critical, and I do take a lot of code from the other BSDs. Version control, and in particular *distributed* version control, actually makes forking easier, but curiously some of the BSDs have found it very difficult to get away from CVS. I guess we should be thankful about the new tooling but if the idea was to prevent linux to become like the BSDs (for good or bad), I think the linux community is to credit for that. Just my $0.02, Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sat Jul 23 17:31:24 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6123EBA180B for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500681658 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 4F285BA1809; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:31:24 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED30BA1808 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C071655; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:31:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from desk.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE15D213D; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:31:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by desk.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4D1472538; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:31:13 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Pedro Giffuni Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What Larry McVoy (bitkeeper) got wrong .... References: <44e4450e-8dbb-f401-bd5c-df503f7a4ef8@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:31:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <44e4450e-8dbb-f401-bd5c-df503f7a4ef8@FreeBSD.org> (Pedro Giffuni's message of "Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:48:27 -0500") Message-ID: <868twsqn1a.fsf@desk.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:31:24 -0000 Pedro Giffuni writes: > I was in the process of preparing a port of bitkeeper and I found this: > > https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper > > "The BitKeeper history needs to be written up but the short version is > that it happened because Larry wanted to help Linux not turn into a > bunch of splintered factions like 386BSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, > DragonFlyBSD, etc. He saw that the problem was one of tooling. ..." This may be poorly written, but what they're trying to say is that there was a serious risk of someone forking Linux solely because they were tired of the Linus bottleneck, and a DVCS would help avoid that. That's not particularly shocking. BitKeeper was the first semi-free DVCS and possibly the second DVCS ever (the first being Sun TeamWare, also by Larry McVoy). Here's a real gem, though: "They stayed in it for three more years before moving to Git because BitKeeper wasn't open source." Because clearly, McVoy throwing a hissy fit and revoking their license had nothing to do with it. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no