From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat May 16 18:19:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07B52F937B for ; Sat, 16 May 2020 18:19:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49PYTN5f2tz3LNB for ; Sat, 16 May 2020 18:19:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.31.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MDQRy-1jkQiv330o-00AW5h; Sat, 16 May 2020 20:19:27 +0200 Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 20:19:23 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "@lbutlr" Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: [FreeBSD-Announce] FreeBSD 12.0 end-of-life Message-Id: <20200516201923.8676289a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <332714B8-2798-42CF-A082-9EDA180CC65B@kreme.com> References: <20200217231452.717FA1E820@freefall.freebsd.org> <85E7C97E-EF8B-4FC7-8EF1-758B7BCBAE90@kreme.com> <05112EEC-7FA3-4E18-974B-263A58058E01@kicp.uchicago.edu> <332714B8-2798-42CF-A082-9EDA180CC65B@kreme.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ZY+RyAopf6pNiJDKAjpg/0Ncvmsi6httFlasNXdsoj7OOlvXQmW BEpTQffTEt1DYMhL2zxhDaotf6/6l8TysUdm8iOSG+x1O7wizjlGc86wEhfOhGNpG7Z893Q 8coQsjBkjv+PVM/vSWkeRuKmj0/uDULYQEqsfwxZW7epSeO8Ch70Uza9dCTnZq7ET4zsqza 010xDdbCi7xWtIE59dwyg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:A3fEw2lTWuQ=:ryS9eY63EWnj+EaFxdmooX ZCnn17Bj9p6EBjCs4ugEDty4el5sbq2+PCXbS1EjltoYx6ad4538zXglyXFBnz+w/WNcsmKw+ 9kDvIJrjf7ZE/r7RR8fGe2LBcMLN81eAEg1TtcVKjbIvyFz/4ctEuvQBCJEDfFQkMYQNFPJ70 k5OIF/EJ1bA7S8KouTbWS3EljhxAwhjCQITUSwaxJC9tWAe99ihgrzQahNGlZhgpCGfCX0OkH AKqLOVNpf4qYC/Z7sabQ7Hn30bReVag8AgHSX0R2ZKXrLjMdY89dl3DJpkQLYQuELoI2N129m d1wNgnH0B2Dp2QA88B6bZ/bzgx1NdYZrwzy29A+IkPZE8Roa774eQGvgDjo5WiAfO7pZPK8na f2Lf6i3lIG3xroqBkNsyf4esdEiMuRZlSXUjlzl0jkZzOTJ8IJHPwRi5SLfzoVVLfGFv/3L0i 2lo6f08AMXRr8psimolfrnCvVSnebeNQtOjMFHAmf4ub2vWds8DNk/w0JEa3Bw1Blm6nmvC1g PTxSJEHrXii4x0wFQeD91IdS48vCTipiVB4KdCdHuCayLDujvYu3O3qO3jXyFUAudp3uGWGWF k0/AFdyLjQcRv1NhFYrfea6RLkFsnyyqzxQ9LbxhpI2qfVsZUXMr7l6fiVhucyotbUd84RIkp v2qFLUJ46t0dFvDSTEoYLmPSLJ2gabBw+gytZeBOu4xep7OEdbmTvq/GNnX7OESKDpFXrpA15 8rt6EtP4SxwIT87dT5wnkRdrS+nluS5MaEwEUqOzaIa2NcAnvHMUIRhEf8u6LNguoTziUPV2b zxtnoGG4nYhoexv+alavCiBEVHTyIhvz0mE0mc6oY4d9JIK6NZ40Y++gtQQTBp4tznsLcR3 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49PYTN5f2tz3LNB X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.72 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[138.31.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.96)[0.957,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[131.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[131.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.36)[ip: (1.05), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(1.99), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 18:19:38 -0000 On Sat, 16 May 2020 11:57:37 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > On 18 Feb 2020, at 07:08, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > I have workstation (desktop) running FreeBSD. > > But you are in a tiny tiny minority. But _I_ am a big big user of FreeBSD for many many years, especially (!) on the desktop, so this counts as well. ;-) > > And from what is said on this list, I’m not the only one. > > This list is a tiny tiny minority of FreeBSD users, > and even here most of us are not using desktop FreeBSD. > > 12/stable is projected for EOL in 2024. Doesn’t seem too short. The era of "install once, then keep using" is long gone. Due to the rising complexity not just in the OS, but at application level (the libraries, the problem programs, all the "apps"), continuous updates and changes are required to keep - as strange as it might sound - the OS "compatible with the applications". This is not a consideration of "good vs. bad", it's just how things have developed over time. You can like it or not, but you have to agree with it because that's the status quo you (sadly or fortunately) have to deal with. > Considering the amount of security that is need4ed to run > a system, the life cycles are going to be necessarily > shorter between needed updates. The days of sticking a box > I a closet and ignoring it for 10 years are, thankfully, > long in the past for any responsible admin. Why "thankfully"? Maybe you haven't experienced how great that can be? Imagine a system designed for a specific job, tailored to do what it is told, in a static, non-changing manner. You install it. And it runs and runs and runs and runs. Older hardware could do this. And older software, in combination with that hardware, could do this. As long as the requirements don't change, it's not a problem, especially not when _not_ connected to the Internet - yes, I'm quite aware that _this_ is a significant problem in considering system security. Try to see the user's view: He requests something - and the system delivers. It does so as it did 5 years ago, and in 5 years, it will still do this. And now change to the admin view: He knows that there is a specific system that doesn't require him to pay attention to. No scheduling for downtime where a python upgrade might hose the whole set of applications; no configuration file change that makes the whole system unusable. It just sits there and does its thing. The responsible (!) admin of course has proper documentation for all this. Of course you canno generalize such a construct. It's probably just a very small niche use case, but it probably still exists somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised to somehow find a FreeBSD 4.3 system on a 200 MHz Pentium II with SCSI disks that controls some strange printing equipment... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...