From owner-freebsd-x11@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 14 10:58:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6044116A4DA; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:58:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dejan.lesjak@ijs.si) Received: from mail.ijs.si (mailman.ijs.si [193.2.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B88B43D58; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:58:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dejan.lesjak@ijs.si) Received: from localhost (mail4.ijs.si [193.2.4.66]) by mail.ijs.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCBD817B856; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:58:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ijs.si Received: from mail.ijs.si ([193.2.4.66]) by localhost (mail.ijs.si [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6+NPOI0Ajr7h; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:58:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from edina.ijs.si (edina.ijs.si [193.2.4.3]) by mail.ijs.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC7917B8D2; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:58:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from f9pc04.ijs.si (f9pc04.ijs.si [194.249.156.4]) by edina.ijs.si (Postfix) with ESMTP id A131150898; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:58:13 +0200 (CEST) From: Dejan Lesjak To: Maxim Sobolev Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 13:00:43 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.3 References: <200607130024.18047.dejan.lesjak@ijs.si> <44B740A5.6050709@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <44B740A5.6050709@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-u" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200607141300.43547.dejan.lesjak@ijs.si> Cc: ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: Merging X11BASE to LOCALBASE X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:58:21 -0000 On Friday 14 July 2006 08:58, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > What's the gain? I believe I mentioned some of gains in first mail. There is also the benefit of less divergence to upstreams as ./configure scripts of various ports use /usr/local as default prefix, but more importantly as modular X.org is becoming more widespread there is tendency of various packagers (for example Linux distributions already mentioned) to install all packages under same prefix. We expect that if we follow that trend, we would make maintainers and users' lives a bit easier in the long run. > Transition will be a really big PITA for most existing > users. Everybody who would be trying to install a KDE/GNOME or even a > general X11 port after a switchover still having all X11 bits in > /usr/X11R6 is likely to be screwed on build time, due to mismatching > includes/libraries search paths. And I am not even telling about > run-time problems with datafiles in KDE/GNOME. Having two prefixes we could also be just papering over some of the conflicts that could result in mysterious, hard to detect errors that could perhaps be detected sooner if we had only one prefix and thus easier to find if two ports conflict by installing file with same name. Message http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2006-July/033956.html could be example of such case. As for KDE/GNOME, it was thought that converting GNOME would present one of major hurdles at transition. With responses so far, perhaps things are not so horrible as I feared though. GNOME team is already planning the transition and we'll see how it fares. If it is indeed found out that the pain of transition overweights gains then it can still be decided to keep /usr/X11R6 prefix. The X11 team is rather hoping this will cause less pain in the long run for everybody - as far as X.org 7 ports themselves go, they right now already happily build and install under /usr/X11R6 prefix so going with it would save us some time, but we think we would loose the opportunity to handle PREFIX transition that way. > The only way to handle such a merge for ordinary Joe User would be to > remove all X11 bits and pieces and compile/install everything from > scratch. That would be exactly the reason I believe the upgrade to X.org 7.x would be the best time to do that with X.org ports - all X11 bits and pieces would have to be upgraded at that time anyway with a good chance that at least some of dependencies on X11 would have to be upgraded as well. If it is agreed upon that /usr/X11R6 -> /usr/local as default is the way to go, then it would be better to do it at that time, rather than doing it sometime later and cause pain for users twice. > And despite what X11 maintainers may believe (due to the nature > of their position they > compile/install/remove/compile/install/remove/.../ad infinite all X11 > bits and pieces every day), ordinary Joe User doesn't like such gross > upgrades, since even with the best packaging system in the world > virtually any such upgrade will bring new unanticipated problems to the > system that otherwise has been working before upgrade just fine. Due to the change in X.org 7.x, namely the switch to modular packages, there will already be a bit of pain for users to upgrade. If we generally agree upon /usr/local prefix then perhaps doing it at the same time might mean a bit more concentrated pain at one time, but at the same time make transition shorter than doing the two transitions at separate times. > Therefore, I doubt that such "pull the trigger" approach is really going > to work in this case. Some more gradual course is in due: with X11R6 > being banned as a target for a new ports, with new GNOME version moving > to the LOCALBASE and so on. I seem to have phrased my mail a bit weird. There's no intention of "pulling the trigger", say tomorrow and pull the rug from under users' and maintainers' feet. Of course we would like to do things gradually so to hurt users and maintainers the least as possible. The mail was meant to indicate the general direction of where we would like to go with X.org ports as far as PREFIX is concerned, to prompt people to voice their disagreements/agreements, and to find out how we can do it so as to cause as little pain as possible. It should certainly not be viewed as "we plan to import X.org 7 into ports next week and make /usr/local default prefix so deal with it". If it sounded like that I do apologize. Dejan