From owner-cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 10 16:16:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: cvs-all@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DECD16A4CE; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:16:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk (freebsd.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.249.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7783F43D3F; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:16:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul@mx1.originative.co.uk) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395E615586; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:16:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 34718-09; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:16:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 99A7F15589; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:16:08 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:16:08 +0000 From: Paul Richards To: Maxim Sobolev Message-ID: <20050310161607.GO98930@myrddin.originative.co.uk> References: <422E407B.4080507@portaone.com> <86k6oht386.fsf@xps.des.no> <422F087F.9030906@portaone.com> <20050309.085035.129356491.imp@bsdimp.com> <422F6703.70409@portaone.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <422F6703.70409@portaone.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at originative.co.uk cc: src-committers@FreeBSD.org cc: cvs-src@FreeBSD.org cc: alfred@FreeBSD.org cc: cvs-all@FreeBSD.org cc: des@des.no cc: "M. Warner Losh" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/compat/linux linux_socket.c X-BeenThere: cvs-all@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: CVS commit messages for the entire tree List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:16:51 -0000 On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 11:13:39PM +0200, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > M. Warner Losh wrote: > >In message: <422F087F.9030906@portaone.com> > > Maxim Sobolev writes: > >: and need this tool to upgrade otherwise perfectly working system(s). > > > >As a veteran of ABI wars, I think that you have an unrealistic > >expectations about what can be done. While an interesting goal, too > >many of the developers are hard wired to not even think about such > >considerations to make it successful. We have a hard enough time > >making backward compatibility work, there's no hope for 'forward' > >compatability. > > As a junior of ABI wars I think I have a realistic expectation about > what can be done. Yes, many developers don't care about `backward' > compatibility, let alone `forward' compatibility, but in fact both are > really necessary in we want to position FreeBSD as a sound design. >From a commercial standpoint, forwards compatibility is I think actually more important. When you release a commercial product you're actually more concerned about it working on already existing systems. Imagine something like Photoshop being written on the most recent version of Mac OS X and finding that compatibility only worked forward. That would mean that most users out there would have to upgrade their OS in order to use the most recent version of Photoshop! What's most important commercially is that you can use the most up to date development environment to target the largest possible installed user base. It matters a lot less if you have to support patches for newer systems since that's a much smaller user base to support and the onward development of your own product tends to keep pace with future platform changes. A "stable" ABI means it doesn't change, not that it changes in a backwards compatible manner. We should be able to enhance future versions of a branch without creating these ABI incompatibilities by supporting the existing interfaces until a future major release removes them. Better yet, lets stop "developing" our stable branches and focus on stabilising them and getter more rapid development done in our -current branch. There was a rash of MFCs for the next stable release which were nothing more than a feature push and were of dubious value in helping stability. -- Paul Richards