From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 01:08:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27171 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA27156 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16761; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:08:21 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA20894; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:08:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980629100818.22528@follo.net> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:08:18 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: drifter@stratos.net, Wes Peters , fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? References: <19980629010045.04155@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:43:28PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 28, 1998 at 08:43:28PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > Not true. An infant has people that relate to it, even though they > > haven't met it yet. > > Then doesn't it have (a) value just as you or me? It does have value. Just as a dog has value. The question is at what point you consider that value high enough to warrant what protection. > Regardless, you almost sound as if you're argueing against > abortion, now. :) It is just a question of where you put the line for what you consider human. We all agree to put the limit somewhere between the sperm/ova and the point a healthy baby being born 9 months later - it is only a question of where. I don't believe in magic (souls et al), so I can't see much point in placing the limit very early. A baby don't "feel human" for some months after conception, and it isn't reasonably intelligent for a similar amount of time. Thus little happen to give it value, except possibly as an abstract concept. If you get societal problems from people relating to this abstract concept being terminated, by all means evaluate ways of stopping them. I'd start with "sex education" ;-) Personally, I'm fairly certain _my_ society overall get benefits from its policy. From what I've seen, abortion is mostly used by those that wouldn't be ready to be parents anyway, where their children most likely wouldn't get a good life, and would become the future underside of society. I believe this is for the good. (I may have what seem somewhat strange views on some of this; this comes from not believing in the intrinsic value of human life. This is a hard-earned belief; I got it after going through a series of self-crafted hells). > > Of course :-) Human worth is a gradual process, much related to at > > which point we're conditioned to consider people to have it. It get > > ridicilous almost no matter how you slice it, as we're just talking > > about an abstraction, a feeling. > > I would suggest that some definitions are considerably cleaner, > in the same way a well-designed computer system is cleaner. So give me a "clean" definition to rip to pieces ;-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message