From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 16:18:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D792D37B69E for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA23389 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:18:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA13340 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:18:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (peter1.yahoo.com [208.48.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D9137B79A; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33B311CD7; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Warner Losh Cc: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami), Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:05:04 MDT." <200004152205.QAA29099@harmony.village.org> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:05 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > In message Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami writes: > : I wouldn't say "people generally" argued against" it. Peter Wemm, > : myself and a lot of other committers supported it, saying that tcsh is > : just a newer and maintained version of our old csh. > > Agreed. Those that argued against it sited size. > > : I do remember people setting up strawman arguments about embedded > : systems just to be knocked down by the embedded folks themselves. :> > > Well, I am an embedded folk and argued for the change. However, my > boss argued against, so that more than cancels me out :-) > > Warner What I saw was something like this: - the people complaining about the size started yelling, and if you saw only the first day or two of the discussion, you'd have got a pretty one-sided view of opinion (ie: don't do it). - Then, once people who liked and used tcsh saw the way the discussion was going, they jumped in and (IMHO) there was an overall concensus to do it, with a couple of holdouts mostly on the size issue. The way I read things, there were several basic groups of opinions: 1: why the hell are we shipping csh anyway, and with root using it by default?? I change root's login immediately after install! 2: I love my csh and will die before using anything else! 3: If we are going to ship a csh, it might as well be the more usable and more up to date tcsh. Most of this group didn't seem to care what root's default shell was or were in favour of root being sh by default. #2 is taken care of by the csh port. The people inconvenienced by having to install a csh port is *far* smaller than the group inconvenienced by having to install the tcsh port. People in group 1 really aren't affected all that much if csh == tcsh as they don't use it anyway (apart from the size - I guess Yet Another build option could fix that). FreeBSD is *far* from an ideal embedded OS target by default - a lot of trimming is required, tcsh vs csh is a drop in the ocean compared to other things (eg: the wasted space in /modules). IMHO, the way to keep most people happy (or least unhappy :-]) is to finish the tcsh thing, and change root's shell to /bin/sh and probably change the default new-user shell to sh as well if it isn't already. I know a lot of people stopped reading the thread fairly early on. Please refrain from commenting unless you go back and read the thread to completion - lets not have the same things argued about all over again. (This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a general request). Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message