From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 16 19:54:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DBF1065672 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:54:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from corky1951@comcast.net) Received: from QMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.17]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205388FC16 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:54:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from corky1951@comcast.net) Received: from OMTA13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.52]) by QMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id fohF1a00D17dt5G5AveNfW; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:38:22 +0000 Received: from comcast.net ([76.28.182.91]) by OMTA13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id fveV1a00H1yjRxY3ZveWP4; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:38:31 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=54lCD9Ee6qtvptCYT0gA:9 a=4ggjjiuH5v_-vhsHX7EA:7 a=givhH6FMqU4kdIOWbN9w-3JNIgkA:4 a=SV7veod9ZcQA:10 a=YvKx7zeTAGcA:10 Received: by comcast.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:38:29 -0800 Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:38:29 -0800 From: Charlie Kester To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20081116193828.GB7878@comcast.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <491D59D3.8080809@spansurf.com> <20081114203914.W14337@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl> <491DDD56.1040001@ccstores.com> <20081114225626.GA56663@icarus.home.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20081114225626.GA56663@icarus.home.lan> X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5.x/OS X 10.5.x X-Composer: VIM 7.2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Subject: Re: re changing from vista X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:54:33 -0000 * Jeremy Chadwick [2008-11-14 14:56:26 -0800]: > But why are we interested in "converting" people? That >borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. > > >I'm not saying "we don't need new users" -- I'm saying: if we took half >the energy used "converting" people and applied it to fixing bugs and >improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to "convert". "Build it >(and secure/stabilise it) and they will come". Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like FreeBSD? Microsoft, Apple, etc. want more users on their OS because it increases their profits. But who gets more money if ten thousand users switch to FreeBSD? FreeBSD already has a large enough user base to attract the attention of developers deciding which platforms to target with their apps. But even if it didn't, it has a large developer community of its own, and they've done a great job porting apps, as well as creating new apps themselves. New users who are also developers can contribute to this effort, so it makes sense to actively recruit them. But why should we want to increase the number of ordinary, non-developer users? If these new users also contribute to the project, by working on documentation or other non-programming tasks, then it makes sense to actively recruit them too. Perhaps there's an implicit calculation that only x percent of new users will actually contribute to the project, so if you want/need C new contributors, you should aim to recruit N = C / x new users. Some of the comments in this thread have expressed one of the problems new users can bring: an expectation and demand that things work the way they used to on their old OS. People who voice these concerns want to preserve the Unix philosophy and culture, so they don't welcome immigrants who refuse to assimilate. They don't see those immigrants as potential contributors to the project; they see them as people who want to replace it with a different project altogether. ...which perhaps explains why some people want to impose something like a Unix citizenship test. Users can also contribute by helping to refine the requirements for software. For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often discussed various graphics tools. In his opinion, the Gimp is a powerful tool which provides almost every tool or technique an artist might want, but it's unusable because its user interface doesn't reflect the way artists actually do their work. He says this isn't just that they're used to Photoshop or whatever; there's something about the nature of the task that the Gimp fails to accommodate in a natural, effortless way. He says the Gimp feels like a tool designed by software engineers rather than artists. We need users like that, who aren't developers but who are experts in their own domain. How much of FreeBSD's strength as a server derives from the fact that so many of its users have been sysadmins with a keen awareness of the day-to-day problems in that domain? (It's also been an important fact that many of them are developers too.) So when new users appear and start requesting changes to make things more like the system they came from, we shouldn't automatically classify them as "unassimilable immigrants". We should try to understand what they're really looking for, and whether or how our current software supports it. It's especially important to understand why they left their old home. What was the need that inspired them to consider a change? How did their old OS fail to meet that need? Sometimes our answer to them is going to be, "No, sorry, our project isn't designed to do that" or "That isn't one of our project's goals." Maybe you should consider Project Y instead." There's nothing wrong with that kind of answer. It's coheres with the Unix philosophy of clarity of purpose (e.g., tools that do one thing and do it well.) So, in conclusion, we DON'T need new users because growing the userbase is good in itself. Sometimes growth is cancerous, and kills the body. We DO need new users insofar as they help us meet the goals of our project. (And sometimes new users suggest new goals for us to pursue.) -- Charlie