From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 29 20:46:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19359 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA19349 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:46:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24697; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:45:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:45:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806300345.VAA24697@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) From: Wes Peters To: grog@lemis.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <19980629143707.Q897@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980629143707.Q897@freebie.lemis.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA19355 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying: % 1. Forced abortion and forced sterilization. For Christians, of % course, an abomination. In China, quite possibly law. Yes, I can % believe they do this. After seeing what has happened in the 30 % years between my two visits to India, I can understand the Chinese % view. There are absolute wrongs in this life, and the killing of innocents is at the top of the list. % 2. "Simply killed outright". Did she bring documentation of this as % well? How often? Where? Why? If they had the power to kill, % they had the power to anaesthetize and sterilize. Yes, she did. It apparently happened "several times" in her tenure, with women who were so hysterical the clinic staff could not deal with them. The clinic staff called the police, and the police killed these women. This was apparently done to discourage violent resistance. These killings were apparently documented in the medical records of these women kept by the clinic. % I think this shows the degree to which people can adapt to adverse % circumstances. I think your experiences (first hand, and thus *much* % more plausible) are very frightening, not so much for what happened to % you (nothing) as for the fact that it happened twice in "safe" cities, % and because of your lack of concern about it. I've been in lots of % places in the world, and nothing like that has ever happened to me. In actuality, the knife-point stickup could be a poster for the NRA: the man approached me as I was stopped at a traffic light, stuck a knife in the window and asked for my wallet. I told him it was in the "jockey box", carefully reached over and withdrew my 9mm pistol, which I stuffed into his face. He sat down in surprise, and I departed VERY quickly. I've often wondered if I managed to drive over his legs, but didn't think to check at the time. This happened in a neighborhood in Seattle that bordered between three differing racial groups, and was quite tense in those days. Being there at 1:00 am was probably not a great decision, but was the shortest route to work. I drove it every night for 3 years, and that was the only problem I ever encountered. That fits my definition of "chance encounter" quite well. The cinderblock incident I mentioned, however, was only one of many acts of premeditated violence that took place during that time, several of which I have physical scars from. Institutionalized violence frightens me far more than the random meanderings of morally deficient individuals, but I have grown up in a country where institutionalized violence is relatively rare, and generally condemned. % > I see the quality of life in the Salt Lake Valley diminishing % > rapidly, and have been looking for an upgrade path for several years % > now. While I try to be as open-minded as possible, I certainly % > won't be moving my family to some totalitarian dunghole with zero % > respect for human rights like China. % % Again, I think this is based on a lack of understanding, certainly % helped by the US media's reports. But you see, I don't pay much attention to the US media's reports. The only "news" program I watch on a regular (more than once a month) basis is "Meet the Press," and you'll never find them covering anything like this. I don't read newspapers, most of them are a waste of the paper they're printed on. I listen to the radio in the morning to hear about today's weather and which parts of the local highway system have been dismantled during my sleep, and I surf the web for news. I find the best world coverage typically comes from British sources, and look for reports from BBC world news. I often find their coverage of US politics quite amusing, too. % >>> Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government % >>> itself. % >> % >> I think that claim needs a little justification. % > % > See the above-mentioned report by the Chinese "welfare worker." % % Let's see a URL or something. I'm not denying that this happened. % After all, even in Australia (and quite possibly in the US) forced % sterilizations have been practised. The difference is that in % Australia they had only a very tenuous legal basis. I'll call the local affiliates and find out which network aired the segment. I doubt you'll find them on-line; they make money charging for their typewritten transcripts. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message