From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20:12:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9B6153B7 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:12:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:12:35 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Chuck Robey" Cc: Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:12:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be9cee$72a70310$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The point is, while it's possible for someone who can't code to come up > with some great idea, it's seldom happened. Perhaps this is something unique to FreeBSD then. The vast majority of the good product ideas I have ever heard came from 'mere' users of the product. > What *does* happen is that > huge amounts of everyone's time gets wasted while someone who was too > lazy to read the book themselves gets an education at everyone else's > expense. You don't mind wasting other folks time? I do. Then simply say, "That's a bad idea, but I don't have the time or the patience to explain why. Sorry". That's honest. Or say, "This isn't the place for people to discuss suggestions like that, send your future suggestions to X." I'm not saying you have to cater to people. I'm not saying you have to be helpful. I'm saying don't be positively unhelpful and dishonest. And "If you think that's such a good idea, why don't you code it?" is sarcastic and dishonest. > Are you aware that all the main FreeBSD core guys used to hang out on > hackers, and even answer questions on -questions? People pusing ideas > like yours, who think they should be catered to at everyone else's > expense, drove all of them away. It wastes the time of the folks who > CAN do it. I, for one, don't appreciate that. I was real unhappy, the > day that David Greenman left -questions and hackers, but I didn't blame > him a bit. I'm really not interested in the history of FreeBSD. This is not a FreeBSD-specific issue. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it has nothing to do with FreeBSD. > If you enjoy batting ideas around, hey, that's fun, I do it too, but I > make sure that I don't pretend about what I'm doing, and I make sure I > do it in a venue where I only engage those folks who are similarly at > leisure to do so. Saying, "this is not the forum for batting ideas around" is nothing at all like "if you think that this is such a good idea, why don't you code it?". Why are you attempting to equate them? I'm amazed at the extent to which you are trying to respond to a claim I did not make. What I'm talking about is when there's honest, valuable debate over an idea, and someone plays that like it's a trump card. The way some people pronounce "that's what you think!" and think the debate is over. I wasn't referring to any specific incident or person. I was simply elaborating on the difference between helpful and unhelpful directions to take. "If I code it, will you accept it?" is clearly an unhelpful direction to take. So is, "If that's such a good idea, why don't you code it?" when you are clearly implying that it wouldn't be accepted anyway. I'm the Director of Coding for the DALnet IRC Network, and I made a rule for our coding list -- if you ever say "if that's such an idea, why don't you code it?" in the middle of a debate over the merits of a feature, you lose your posting privileges. And I'm as tired of bad ideas coming from people who can't code as anyone. I even don't mind "that's a bad idea, but you wouldn't be able to understand why." At least, it's honest. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message