From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 00:28:28 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66800106566C for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:28:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f222.google.com (mail-fx0-f222.google.com [209.85.220.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35A28FC13 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:28:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm22 with SMTP id 22so1893758fxm.36 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=DatwnChwVBSVu/JNlKaIB2qrd8CGGOENlkT7NMR0XCQ=; b=LGosznxFpff+oyb4rtz8a8BXRlQH2BaGd3ulN64iuDATdC2k9ZNbcyxP+1UyzeaDOD UF+HV/elGHu20XmpOIA82Gly2Uz6CQNo+s9Yhqu93c5uWDQUJoZmVbgloWQbjKRJWAJO HgFrCB6L9EpETYknZhGzMtwIr8yICTgwHe6tI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=qczPAbnpcnhrV4ahiVH/OPRmHxcwZEAd1qCEsnbO/VNlmKeR9C2I3LoUFsCpLnnzaF TQJ0SZ5jQog+T8ipj7GbFv6r+0vGwkClQwCuKeU+gqPSyOedqpFJrymGEMc7zWqIn4aw 2/TRLCSYIkKq7Ccr0IVwv/WVLg55Mdu6piXhg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.179.94 with SMTP id c30mr21125hbg.159.1253579306466; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:28:26 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909211728m159c1b50id00dec2b3f8110b0@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Doug Barton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Ed Schouten , current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:28:28 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > I hate to sound negative, but I really don't find arguments of the > sort, "the first thing I install on a new system is 'foo', so 'foo' > should be part of the base" compelling.[1] I, like a lot of other > FreeBSD users have never used screen or tmux, and probably never will. > For my money nohup works just fine for long-lived processes that need > a log. But even the "I don't use it so it shouldn't be there" argument > is not particularly persuasive. > > We need to take a hard look at what kind of system we want to have. > It's a lot easier to keep userland utilities like tmux up to date from > the ports tree than it is in the base. That alone should be the > deciding factor, but if you want to hear a chorus of the "bloat" > argument then fill it in here. > > Rather than going down the road of putting everything that some subset > of our developer base thinks makes a system "usable" into the base I > would like to suggest that the effort be spent on improving the > installation tools such that making a system "usable" out of the box > is a matter of ticking off a few boxes at install time. That change > will benefit a whole lot more users than installing one more userland > tool into the base. > > Doug > +10 ... bge won't resresume from suspend, a simple kldload atapicam causes a fatal trap12 and ACPI support is just a matter of luck ... and we are at -RC1 ... > [1] If we're going to go that route then I'm installing bash. > I'd get rid of Sendmail and replace it with something more sensible like DMA (DragonFly Mail Agent) ... Even the Fedora guys are thinking about it ... regards Gonzalo Nemmi