From owner-freebsd-www Sat Sep 7 11:51:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-www@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2FF337B401 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0EF943E75 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g87Io2JU054602 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g87Io2Gi054601; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035A237B400 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host217-39-133-106.in-addr.btopenworld.com (host217-39-133-106.in-addr.btopenworld.com [217.39.133.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8B043E42 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:41:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dom@host217-39-133-106.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Received: by host217-39-133-106.in-addr.btopenworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8ECB04D6; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 19:41:46 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <20020907184146.8ECB04D6@host217-39-133-106.in-addr.btopenworld.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 19:41:46 +0100 (BST) From: Dominic Marks Reply-To: Dominic Marks To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: 3.113 Subject: www/42512: Increase readability of USENIX summit document Sender: owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Number: 42512 >Category: www >Synopsis: Increase readability of USENIX summit document >Confidential: no >Severity: non-critical >Priority: low >Responsible: freebsd-www >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: change-request >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:50:02 PDT 2002 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Dominic Marks >Release: FreeBSD 4.6-STABLE i386 >Organization: National Physical Laboratory, UK >Environment: System: FreeBSD gallium 4.6-STABLE FreeBSD 4.6-STABLE #2: Sun Sep 1 11:11:10 BST 2002 dom@gallium:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/NIFTY i386 >Description: This changes the names used in the discussion for committers to their committer handles. I find this makes the dicussion much easier to read if you are already familiar with reading cvs-all, but no harder to read if you're not. In fact it is probably easier for those who don't also since it extends the length of the abbreviations in every case. I also fixed some naming errors, either no name, wrong name or misspelt name. I believe my correction of Jeffrey Xu to Jeffrey Hsu is correct, but I'm not 100% certain. Finally some parts which were brief or incomplete were fleshed out, an example of this would be describing how people online / on IRC interacted with the summit. >How-To-Repeat: NA. >Fix: Index: usenix-devsummit.sgml =================================================================== RCS file: /media/cvs/freebsd/www/en/events/2002/usenix-devsummit.sgml,v retrieving revision 1.4 diff -u -3 -p -r1.4 usenix-devsummit.sgml --- usenix-devsummit.sgml 4 Sep 2002 14:41:53 -0000 1.4 +++ usenix-devsummit.sgml 4 Sep 2002 20:00:02 -0000 @@ -43,44 +43,52 @@ Stokely.

  • Open Discussion
    • -

    NOTE: As usual I missed some names, please add those I missed.

    +

    NOTE: As usual I missed some names, please add those I missed. During + the discussion names have been abbreviated, for committers their + FreeBSD.org username has been used, for non committers the initials + are used.

    Attending:

    -

    In person:

    +

    Committers In Person:

    +
      +
    • Robert Watson (rwatson)
      • +
    • Julian Elischer (julian)
      • +
    • John Baldwin (jhb)
      • +
    • Matt Dillon (dillon)
      • +
    • Warner Losh (warner)
      • +
    • David O'Brien (obrien)
      • +
    • Jeffery Hsu (hsu)
      • +
    • Jennifer Yang (jennifer)
      • +
    • Bosko Milekic (bmilekic)
      • +
    • Alfred Perlstein (alfred)
      • +
    • Doug Rabson (dfr)
      • +
    • Paul Saab (ps)
      • +
    • Brooks Davis (brooks)
      • +
    • Murray Stokely (murray)
      • +
    • Jonathan Mini (mini)
      • +
    • Takanori Watanabe (takawata)
      • +
    • Gordon Tetlow (gordon)
      • +
    • Gregory Shapiro (gshapiro)
      • +
    • Sam Leffler (sam)
      • +
    • Bruce Mah (bmah)
      • +
    + +

    Also In Person:

      -
    • Robert Watson (RW)
      • -
    • Julian Elischer(JE)
      • -
    • John Baldwin(JB)
      • -
    • Matt Dillon (MD)
      • -
    • Warner Losh (WL)
      • -
    • David O'Brian (DO)
      • -
    • Jeffery Xu (JX)
      • -
    • Jennifer Ying (JY)
      • -
    • Bosko Milekic (BM)
      • -
    • Alfred Perlstein (AP)
      • -
    • Doug Rabson (DR)
      • -
    • Paul Saab (PS)
      • -
    • Brooks Davis (BD)
      • -
    • Murray Stokely (MS)
      • -
    • Jonathan Mini (JM)
      • -
    • Watanabe ???
      • -
    • Gordon Tetlow (GT)
      • -
    • Gregory Schapiro (GS)
      • -
    • Sam Leffler (SL)
      • -
    • Bruce Mah
    • George Neville-Neil (gnn)
      • -
    • Unknown (??)
      • +

    On The Phone:

      -
    • Alan Cox (AC)
      • +
    • Alan Cox (alc)

    Via webcast:

    -

    ??

    +

    Many people listened in via the stream and chatted on IRC to one + another while the discussion took place.

    The meeting followed a format where each section was led by an individual and then a discussion ensued. Not all of the discussion @@ -125,75 +133,75 @@ perforce and people have to patch it.

    -

    RW : What about userland?

    +

    rwatson : What about userland?

    -

    JE : It can run different threads +

    julian : It can run different threads in userland. The primitives are all there it just needs a bit more help. I would like to put an idea out. Is it a good idea to be able to have non-threaded programs linking with threaded libraries?

    -

    RW : Putting async I/O into such a +

    rwatson : Putting async I/O into such a thing would make sense.

    -

    JE : The library would not care +

    julian : The library would not care who was accessing it.

    -

    RW : For instance libc could be +

    rwatson : For instance libc could be threaded or not.

    -

    JE : That would be interesting. I +

    julian : That would be interesting. I don't know if the two interfaces are incompatible.

    -

    JB : X does this.

    +

    jhb : X does this.

    -

    MD : It is very doable but you +

    dillon : It is very doable but you have to make it non-preemptive. If you're switching non-preemptively you can use library routines which are non threaded.

    -

    JE : If I do what I'm thinking of +

    julian : If I do what I'm thinking of doing then each lib will have its own KSE group.

    -

    MD : stdio does not have to be +

    dillon : stdio does not have to be thread aware if you don't schedule preemptively. It all matters where it blocks.

    -

    JE : Since you're a non-threaded +

    julian : Since you're a non-threaded program you don't know that.

    -

    RW : If you're going to support +

    rwatson : If you're going to support that, libc has to support threads.

    -

    RW : It sounds like some +

    rwatson : It sounds like some complexity goes away. Can we use 1 libc with has threading?

    -

    JE : Do we want to go down this +

    julian : Do we want to go down this path?

    -

    RW : Now or later?

    +

    rwatson : Now or later?

    -

    JE : What do I design now to do +

    julian : What do I design now to do this?

    -

    JB : For example libc_r does not +

    jhb : For example libc_r does not work with rfork.

    -

    JE : The answer is that yes we +

    julian : The answer is that yes we should move forward. Tricky issues, signals...

    -

    WL : Have people talked about +

    warner : Have people talked about pthread programs and cancellation points?

    -

    JE : The pthreads library does not +

    julian : The pthreads library does not assume that you're only going to change threads at yield() points. We are going to have cancellation points. There is an unimplemented call which will be able to send a thread targeted signal even into the kernel.

    -

    JE : When a thread is scheduled +

    julian : When a thread is scheduled onto a KSE there is a mailbox that the userland thread scheduler updates.

    -

    JE : Is there anyone else who has +

    julian : Is there anyone else who has some time or test it? How many people should test this before I check it in? There is a patch that's continuously updated on my web site to be able to patch it to -CURRENT. There is a CVSUP target from cvsup @@ -201,25 +209,25 @@ be able to patch it to -CURRENT. There freefal there is a pointer there to a web page that explains how to CVSUP from source.

    -

    RW : What about SMP locking for +

    rwatson : What about SMP locking for this?

    -

    JE : Handled by the proc locking. +

    julian : Handled by the proc locking. Has not been tried on SMP machines yet.

    -

    DO : What about on Sparc?

    +

    obrien : What about on Sparc?

    -

    JE : You may need to stub things +

    julian : You may need to stub things out.

    -

    JB : Is the paper on the web site?

    +

    jhb : Is the paper on the web site?

    -

    JE : The updated copy has disappeared.

    +

    julian : The updated copy has disappeared.

    -

    ?? : What's the different between +

    unknown : What's the different between NetBSD and FreeBSD on this?

    -

    JE : Logically not a tremendous +

    julian : Logically not a tremendous difference but Net follows the paper closely and Free takes the idea and makes it into a production system. There were some tough battles on -arch about this. The tricky point is that the proc structure has @@ -231,10 +239,10 @@ end we ended up breaking up the proc str overwhelm the CPU when scheduling threads. This is the major difference.

    -

    JE : I greatly admire the NetBSD +

    julian : I greatly admire the NetBSD way which is to take an idea and not dilute it.

    -

    JE : Net is also putting a Solaris +

    julian : Net is also putting a Solaris compatible threads package on top of their scheduler activations in the Solaris ABI.

    @@ -247,17 +255,17 @@ the Solaris ABI.

    -

    JB : Yesterday we talked about SMP +

    jhb : Yesterday we talked about SMP related things so I'll give a summary and then give a list of things for 5.0.

    -

    JB : The big thing for 5.0 is to +

    jhb : The big thing for 5.0 is to get the network stack out from under Giant.

    -

    JB : Jefferey Xu and Jennifer Ying +

    jhb : Jefferey Xu and Jennifer Ying were here to talk about this. They have the PCBs checked in now.

    -

    JY : Interface Queues and SynCache +

    jennifer : Interface Queues and SynCache might be done.

    @@ -275,95 +283,95 @@ might be done.

    -

    JB : Aside from network the newbus +

    jhb : Aside from network the newbus locking needs to be done (Warner Losh) and also CAM stuff. No known status on CAM. Perhaps CAM is not needed for 5.0

    -

    JB : Disk drive interrupts? Would +

    jhb : Disk drive interrupts? Would help performance. Going to talk to Poul Henning-Kamp

    -

    JB : Alan Cox is working on the VM +

    jhb : Alan Cox is working on the VM system. Working based on the old Mach stuff. Objective for 5.0 is to get zero fill and execute on write to work without Giant. In future he wants to look at locking down pmap() functions.

    -

    JB : Still some stability issues. +

    jhb : Still some stability issues. UMA breaks some assumptions. For instance sockets assume that once memory is a socket its a socket forever, this is no longer true.

    -

    JB : Talked to Mike Smith about +

    jhb : Talked to Mike Smith about 5.0 and have decided to stop adding features so that we can start clean up 5.0 and make it a real release. This might require hacks.

    -

    RW : For example in the UMA case +

    rwatson : For example in the UMA case there could be a flag to just say "don't reclaim this zone" -- this would help with issues such as the socket code assuming memory is type stable.

    -

    Over to AC on the VM system. Nothing to say.

    +

    Over to alc on the VM system. Nothing to say.

    -

    BM : As much as I might get hated +

    bmilekic : As much as I might get hated for this. Will preemption stuff go in by 5.0?

    -

    JB :No, that's a 6.0 thing. There +

    jhb :No, that's a 6.0 thing. There are things to do first.

    -

    ??? Phone : Could this come in in +

    unknown : Could this come in in the life time of 5.? 5.1?

    -

    RW : This is a release issue really.

    +

    rwatson : This is a release issue really.

    -

    JB : Yes, the kernel is pre-emptive.

    +

    jhb : Yes, the kernel is pre-emptive.

    -

    RW : Perhaps we should talk about +

    rwatson : Perhaps we should talk about is performance goals? What are the comparisons to make? Perhaps head of 4 with head of 5. We'll see a mix.

    -

    JB : I need to run benchmarks.

    +

    jhb : I need to run benchmarks.

    -

    RW : In terms of SMP features when +

    rwatson : In terms of SMP features when will VM be ready to be measured? I can't put a date on it.

    -

    AC : I think I told John was in +

    alc : I think I told John was in time for release. I'm already doing performance testing so we've already started.

    -

    RW : We'll pick a date to start +

    rwatson : We'll pick a date to start doing measurements. Perhaps 2 or 3 weeks from now.

    -

    AC : My guess is the the locking +

    alc : My guess is the the locking pmap is going to take some time to shake out. On the other hand the next major module we should be working on is machine dependent level. Last we should try approaching the vmobject level. I'll start worrying about performance in the near term.

    -

    RW : Will threading improve +

    rwatson : Will threading improve latency or throughput for networking?

    -

    BM : I would like if we could +

    bmilekic : I would like if we could actually start before.

    -

    RW : Do you have a timeline for +

    rwatson : Do you have a timeline for the interrupt threading stuff?

    -

    BM : I finished some things last +

    bmilekic : I finished some things last night but there are still issues. In a couple of weeks it should be ready for first commit.

    -

    RW : Informally beginning to +

    rwatson : Informally beginning to measure performance now. What are the right sets of tests? Need to discuss on -arch.

    -

    AC : It would be nice to have that +

    alc : It would be nice to have that committed to the tools directory.

    -

    JB : The statistics analysis +

    jhb : The statistics analysis package are we using.

    -

    BM : I have some good success with +

    bmilekic : I have some good success with netpipe for overall measurement.

    -

    RW : Need to be using consistent +

    rwatson : Need to be using consistent compilers because of the compiler change. Also all our debugging stuff will slow down the benchmarking.

    @@ -401,11 +409,11 @@ stuff will slow down the benchmarking. -

    MD : Debug stuff on 5.0. I think +

    dillon : Debug stuff on 5.0. I think it might be reasonable then to take the space hit and always have the debugging in but turn it on and off with sysctl.

    -

    RW : We should commit an optimized +

    rwatson : We should commit an optimized kernel configuration and benchmarking guidlines to the tree as well.

    @@ -414,85 +422,85 @@ well.

    -

    RW : I think we should continue +

    rwatson : I think we should continue the performance discussion. We want to accomplish a couple of things. One is stability measurement. What are the things we need to be measuring? What is our definition of useful?

    -

    Jefferey : End to end measurement +

    hsu : End to end measurement with gigabit cards. For latency test connections per second. Can use ttcp or netbench in ports.

    gnn : need to make sure we run against all of 4.6

    -

    JE : Need to really have 3 tests. +

    julian : Need to really have 3 tests. 4.6 (forever) 4.x (following updates) and -CURRENT.

    -

    RW : There are other dimensions. +

    rwatson : There are other dimensions. Degree of parallelism for instance. We might see degradation in uni but get good stuff in multi case.

    -

    JE : Test for impact of KSE +

    julian : Test for impact of KSE complications as well.

    -

    AP : I think as the results come +

    alfred : I think as the results come through people should not be too worried about it. Perhaps we should benchmark database type stuff as well. Need to do something comprehensive.

    -

    DO : What does the test matrix +

    obrien : What does the test matrix look like? Different architectures and different numbers of processors.

    -

    RW : Can we make a multi-processor +

    rwatson : Can we make a multi-processor run uni-procesor.

    -

    AP : Run queue and scheduler stuff?

    +

    alfred : Run queue and scheduler stuff?

    -

    JE : Will talk to Alfred.

    +

    julian : Will talk to Alfred.

    -

    RW : Is scalability testing important?

    +

    rwatson : Is scalability testing important?

    -

    DavidM : NFS testing.

    +

    obrienM : NFS testing.

    -

    RW : What about UI testing?

    +

    rwatson : What about UI testing?

    -

    JX : x11perf is the way to do that.

    +

    hsu : x11perf is the way to do that.

    -

    MD : Currently we have a directory +

    dillon : Currently we have a directory for regression tests, should we do one for performance tests?

    gnn : talk to sleepycat for DB tests, see if they have some

    -

    AP : Really nice to tests DB +

    alfred : Really nice to tests DB applications that are heavily thread dependent.

    -

    Jefferey :Apache 2 has threads.

    +

    hsu :Apache 2 has threads.

    -

    RW : What about commercial folks? +

    rwatson : What about commercial folks? What do you do.

    -

    Paul Saab : Normally what we end +

    ps : Normally what we end up doing is using the snapshot on some machines and see if the bugs are out. There is no performance testing really.

    -

    RW : Again, what about performance?

    +

    rwatson : Again, what about performance?

    -

    Paul Saab : We've really never had +

    ps : We've really never had one. It's more just bugs. We've just never found the performance to be a problem.

    -

    RW : We need to create a forum for +

    rwatson : We need to create a forum for talking about performance. We need reproducible test cases.

    -

    Paul Saab : There's also other +

    ps : There's also other things. We've been doing lots of looking at this. FreeBSD gets kicked down by attacks for instance. We have a lot of tools to get to the project though.

    -

    RW : I will set up the mailing list.

    +

    rwatson : I will set up the mailing list.

    @@ -505,15 +513,15 @@ the project though.

    -

    JB : Questions about alpha?

    +

    jhb : Questions about alpha?

    -

    RW : KSE on alpha?

    +

    rwatson : KSE on alpha?

    -

    JE : We have patches so it +

    julian : We have patches so it compiles and runs non-KSE programs. You can have the patched version of the alpha kernel up and running though.

    -

    RW : Is the task owned of making +

    rwatson : Is the task owned of making this work on Alpha?

    @@ -522,29 +530,29 @@ this work on Alpha?

    -

    DR : It works as far as I get to +

    dfr : It works as far as I get to use it. It's not used in production right now.

    -

    PS : Intel shipped me a quad +

    ps : Intel shipped me a quad processor IA64 board. (McKinley is the name of the board).

    -

    RW : What does it need for 5.0?

    +

    rwatson : What does it need for 5.0?

    -

    DR : It works, it works for SMP. +

    dfr : It works, it works for SMP. Self hosts, build worlds. sysinstall compiles but needs more kicking to work.

    -

    Paul Saab : Intel wants us to ship +

    ps : Intel wants us to ship a CD.

    -

    DR : There is no thread support +

    dfr : There is no thread support right now (threading library needs to move to get/setcontext rather than longjmp).

    -

    DR : Need to move every driver to +

    dfr : Need to move every driver to use BUS DMA for large memory machines to get bounce buffers.

    -

    JB : PHK is working on using a new +

    jhb : PHK is working on using a new libwhisk so that sysinstall et al work on all systems.

    @@ -553,99 +561,99 @@ libwhisk so that sysinstall et al work o
    -

    Jake B : Take control of KSE stuff +

    jake : Take control of KSE stuff on Sparc 64.

    -

    RW : Do we have a Sparc 64 in the +

    rwatson : Do we have a Sparc 64 in the cluster?

    -

    Jake B : It's not in the cluster +

    jake : It's not in the cluster yet. It's a serial cluster issue.

    -

    RW : Package building on S64?

    +

    rwatson : Package building on S64?

    -

    Jake B : Perhaps a bunch of Ultra +

    jake : Perhaps a bunch of Ultra 60s for a package build.

    -

    David : 1500 build right now?

    +

    obrien : 1500 build right now?

    -

    Jake B : Yes, but a lot of the +

    jake : Yes, but a lot of the same bug in packages are broken.

    -

    JB : Timeline for X?

    +

    jhb : Timeline for X?

    -

    Jake B : Not really.

    +

    jake : Not really.

    -

    RW : In terms of 5.0 how +

    rwatson : In terms of 5.0 how comfortable are you?

    -

    Jake B : sysinstall is the only problem.

    +

    jake : sysinstall is the only problem.

    PowerPC

    -

    Benno Rice : I got it up to +

    benno : I got it up to execing a fake init in the simulator and printing "hello world". Trying to work with real hardware. I now have some semblance of busdma and am working on other stuff. GEM on iMac is in an embryonic state. Should get to NFS mount in a few weeks.

    -

    RW : How do you feel about your +

    rwatson : How do you feel about your timeline?

    -

    Benno : I'm not sure we'll have +

    benno : I'm not sure we'll have something fully workable for 5.0.

    -

    RW : You're not at the point yet +

    rwatson : You're not at the point yet on working on KSE are you?

    -

    Benno : No, need a useful system +

    benno : No, need a useful system first.

    -

    AMD64

    +

    Adillon64

    -

    RW : I know that we're having +

    rwatson : I know that we're having simulator problems.

    -

    DO : The issues are about legal -and NDA. AMD decided on FreeBSD +

    obrien : The issues are about legal +and NDA. Adillon decided on FreeBSD Mall as the NDA person. I have not had a working simulator since September.

    -

    Paul : I can make that happen, as +

    ps : I can make that happen, as well as real hardware.

    -

    DO :I've got a cross tool chain in +

    obrien :I've got a cross tool chain in the tree. I have some untested pmap stuff. Hardware has been available for a month or so. We could boot FreeBSD 4.6 today if only we had hardware.

    -

    RW : What do you think about 5.0? +

    rwatson : What do you think about 5.0? Should we discuss that at another date?

    -

    MIPS

    +

    MIps

    -

    ??? :Juniper offered.

    +

    unknown :Juniper offered.

    -

    DO : But we have no hardware.

    +

    obrien : But we have no hardware.

    -

    ??? :Juniper thinks it's OK but +

    unknown :Juniper thinks it's OK but doesn't want to have it rot in the tree.

    -

    BD : I have a line on a company +

    brooks : I have a line on a company that does compact PCI with R6Ks.

    -

    RW : We're waiting for someone to +

    rwatson : We're waiting for someone to turn up.

    @@ -660,43 +668,43 @@ LUNCH

    Trusted BSD

    -

    RW : MAC framework is what is of +

    rwatson : Malc framework is what is of interest today.

    See Slides from Robert
    -

    JE : Are the labels the same on +

    julian : Are the labels the same on all structures?

    -

    RW : You can modify this but there +

    rwatson : You can modify this but there are issues with memory: is the space needed for a label too large to add to an mbuf header, for example? The label is small, but there area lot of them?

    -

    BM : When you're freeing the mbuf +

    bmilekic : When you're freeing the mbuf do you write the label data?

    -

    RW : We blank it when we free it.

    +

    rwatson : We blank it when we free it.

    -

    BM : I do not think the 36 bytes +

    bmilekic : I do not think the 36 bytes in the mbuf header is a problem.

    -

    JE : I'm more interested in the +

    julian : I'm more interested in the "why" than the how.

    -

    RW : A lot of people are +

    rwatson : A lot of people are interested in this. Some of the things that do interest a lot of people are things like doing on the fly security for a web server.

    -

    JE : Is there a black hatted TLA +

    julian : Is there a black hatted TLA interested?

    -

    RW : Yes and several gov'ts. As +

    rwatson : Yes and several gov'ts. As well as plenty of financial folks.

    -

    RW : There's a lot of userland +

    rwatson : There's a lot of userland stuff that's not done yet.

    @@ -706,171 +714,171 @@ stuff that's not done yet.

    Release Engineering

    -

    MS : Shows a slide of releases. +

    murray : Shows a slide of releases. 4.6 is ready to go but having issues with ISO images. DP1, a lot of goals were met. 1000 packages were building on -CURRENT to get DP1 out. Polished 4.2. We need to start making decisions on 5.0. November is still the date we're shooting for. We're going to do a 4.7 and a 4.8. DP3?

    -

    ***GET SLIDE FROM MURRAY***

    +

    ***GET samIDE FROM MURRAY***

    -

    MS : Release engineering area of +

    murray : Release engineering area of the web site www.freebsd.org/releng. For DP2 question about p4 or CVS? Will probably use p4 for DP2 as well. USB subsystem? Perl removal? KSE?

    -

    JE : KSE should be able to run +

    julian : KSE should be able to run simple tests.

    -

    DO : Is whatever you have +

    obrien : Is whatever you have committed by DP2 be the same as the release.

    -

    JE : It will be a subset.

    +

    julian : It will be a subset.

    -

    MS : What will the status be of +

    murray : What will the status be of KSE in userland for 5.0?

    -

    JE : Can't answer that right +

    julian : Can't answer that right now. We're not removing the old libraries. The userland work will happen between DP2 and release. The next step is MP as well as UP.

    -

    DO : Are we heading for a release?

    +

    obrien : Are we heading for a release?

    -

    MS : yes.

    +

    murray : yes.

    -

    DO : Then we have to stop having +

    obrien : Then we have to stop having major commits.

    -

    MS : Yes, the discussion today is +

    murray : Yes, the discussion today is what are the major must have features.

    -

    RW : We need to decide if there +

    rwatson : We need to decide if there are major upcoming problems and reduce risk on things like KSE.

    -

    JE : That's why I want to get MS 3 +

    julian : That's why I want to get murray 3 in now.

    -

    RW : Do you think that KSE related +

    rwatson : Do you think that KSE related changes from later milestones are going to be isolated to KSE or pervasive?

    -

    JE : Hard to say. My guess is -that MS 4 stuff should be less pervasive.

    +

    julian : Hard to say. My guess is +that murray 4 stuff should be less pervasive.

    -

    RW : What happens if KSE just +

    rwatson : What happens if KSE just doesn't work?

    -

    JE : Well it does work, the +

    julian : Well it does work, the patches work, it's a question of risk. We need to check on new things, like locking two threads in the same process.

    -

    MD : KSEs only become fragile when +

    dillon : KSEs only become fragile when pthread uses them. That's the turning point.

    -

    DO : I'd like the rules for the +

    obrien : I'd like the rules for the rest of the summer, I hope we'll talk about that.

    -

    MS : Earlier is better.

    +

    murray : Earlier is better.

    -

    JM : I think the cutoff point for -KSE might be MS 3.

    +

    mini : I think the cutoff point for +KSE might be murray 3.

    -

    RW : It's the kind of thing where +

    rwatson : It's the kind of thing where if we need to back out we can.

    -

    JE : If you're not going to run +

    julian : If you're not going to run KSEs then you're OK.

    -

    RW : I think it's low risk. Let's +

    rwatson : I think it's low risk. Let's avoid the risk is the message.

    -

    JE : The next DP2 (where we'd like -MS4).

    +

    julian : The next DP2 (where we'd like +murray4).

    -

    AP : We really need KSE so all +

    alfred : We really need KSE so all this concern about stuff that no one really uses is not a big deal. People just need to play catch up. We have performance problems and we need to solve those.

    -

    DO : We quickly need to figure out +

    obrien : We quickly need to figure out our policy on multiple archs.

    -

    RW : I briefly want to respond to +

    rwatson : I briefly want to respond to Alfred. We have asserted that KSE will be experimental. It will be in and 5.0 will go out but there might be issues.

    -

    JB : Realistically for the network +

    jhb : Realistically for the network stack is that IPv4 sockets will not be giant. But this is only in the network stack world. Several people are working on it.

    -

    RW : The GEOM stuff will be +

    rwatson : The GEOM stuff will be enabled by default in 5.0. Sparc depends on it. I do not know what the impediments are to that though.

    -

    JE : The kernel stuff is there but +

    julian : The kernel stuff is there but the user space is not. It can't become the default until everything is there.

    -

    WL : What level of control are you +

    warner : What level of control are you going to exercise over the tree in the coming months?

    -

    MS : You're going to see more +

    murray : You're going to see more level of control but we expect the requests to be reasonable. It's a very open process.

    -

    JB : How are we going to address the 5/6 split? +

    jhb : How are we going to address the 5/6 split? -

    MS : Carefully is all I can +

    murray : Carefully is all I can say.

    -

    RW : For 5. 0 we need to have a +

    rwatson : For 5. 0 we need to have a more informed decision. The release engineers will be trying to reduce the number of large code changes more as time goes by. We don't have to wait for 5.x to be perfectly stable before we branch.

    -

    MS : Let's move it to more general +

    murray : Let's move it to more general discussion of DP2? Specific technologies.

    -

    BM : Is there a strategy to lock +

    bmilekic : Is there a strategy to lock other protocols that are not locked down onw?

    -

    DO : How much more do we need to +

    obrien : How much more do we need to do before 5.0?

    -

    JB : Bug fixing is what we're doing.

    +

    jhb : Bug fixing is what we're doing.

    -

    RW : The answer on the network +

    rwatson : The answer on the network stack. We need to choose a strategy on how to handle the other protocols.

    -

    DO : The crux is that socket +

    obrien : The crux is that socket locking must be in 5.0.

    -

    RW : There are 2 or 3 problems. +

    rwatson : There are 2 or 3 problems. Routing code is a problem. See earlier discussions.

    -

    Doug : RCng is essentially done. +

    dfr : RCng is essentially done. What it needs is testers.

    -

    AP : What about libh (I think libh +

    alfred : What about libh (I think libh is wrong but this is what I heard)?

    -

    JB : It's very far along but not a +

    jhb : It's very far along but not a 5.0 thing.

    -

    WL : Problems with interrupt -routing in ACPCI?

    +

    warner : Problems with interrupt +routing in alcPCI?

    -

    Watanabe : Cannot handle PCI PCI +

    takawata : Cannot handle PCI PCI interrupt routing. Many 802.11x have this problem.

    -

    JE : Is it a problem from Intel?

    +

    julian : Is it a problem from Intel?

    -

    Watanabe : This is not an Intel +

    takawata : This is not an Intel problem but a problem on our side. PCI PCI routing code should be added. New code is necessary.

    @@ -879,12 +887,12 @@ Whiteboard UFS2 rcNG KSE M3 CAM SMPng -GEOM TrustedBSD MAC BusDMA Newbus SMPng +GEOM TrustedBSD Malc BusDMA Newbus SMPng C++ Cardbus libwhisk/sysinstall KOBJ? (no!) sparc64 -Perl Removal ACPI Alpha SMP Stability Pkgs for +Perl Removal alcPI Alpha SMP Stability Pkgs for sparc64, IA64 devd PCI intr route document hints release docs @@ -892,26 +900,26 @@ devd PCI intr route document hints rel platform -

    ??? : Firewire?

    +

    unknown : Firewire?

    -

    RW : What hardware shipping on +

    rwatson : What hardware shipping on IA64?

    -

    DR : Intel stuff

    +

    dfr : Intel stuff

    -

    RW : What about on Sparc64?

    +

    rwatson : What about on Sparc64?

    -

    DO : Very limited (hme...)

    +

    obrien : Very limited (hme...)

    -

    RW : KOBJ extensions discussed at +

    rwatson : KOBJ extensions discussed at BSDCon?

    -

    WL : Not sure, probably not for +

    warner : Not sure, probably not for 5.0. Pervasive, so no.

    -

    RW : How broken is C++?

    +

    rwatson : How broken is C++?

    -

    DO : Only on sparc64. Don't +

    obrien : Only on sparc64. Don't really know yet, but it's probably a library issue. The compiler is a pre-release snapshot. The diffs are now getting large from May 5 to now. We should attempt to be as far along this gcc branch as possible @@ -929,60 +937,60 @@ come release.

    -

    GT : Talking about rc.d stuff. +

    gordon : Talking about rc.d stuff. Import from NetBSD. Right now we have patches out there that are translated from the current boot order. It's in perforce. After the conference it will go into the mainline. Single toggle for booting.

    -

    RW : How in sync are the bits in +

    rwatson : How in sync are the bits in the new stuff with the old stuff.

    -

    GT : Last patch is from June 3rd, +

    gordon : Last patch is from June 3rd, but it's tracking closely.

    -

    RW : What is the schedule for +

    rwatson : What is the schedule for committing to the main tree.

    -

    GT : We have large patches so +

    gordon : We have large patches so we're going to re-import from NetBSD.

    -

    RW : How about you have it done by +

    rwatson : How about you have it done by July 1?

    -

    GT : We could probably do that. +

    gordon : We could probably do that. Definitely want to be in DP2.

    -

    GS : How long will we keep the old +

    gshapiro : How long will we keep the old stuff for?

    -

    GT : We'll keep them both in for a +

    gordon : We'll keep them both in for a while. Not more than 1.5 months though.

    -

    JE : Have you had a look at all at +

    julian : Have you had a look at all at the Mac OS/X startup code?

    -

    GT : No.

    +

    gordon : No.

    -

    JE : Do you deal with dependencies?

    +

    julian : Do you deal with dependencies?

    -

    GT : There is meta data in each +

    gordon : There is meta data in each script that says what needs what. There is a program that orders everything correctly.

    -

    ??? : How does this effect the rc +

    unknown : How does this effect the rc script for ports install?

    -

    GT : We could make this available +

    gordon : We could make this available to ports but won't on the first version.

    -

    AP : Can I recommend that you +

    alfred : Can I recommend that you recommend this to ports?

    -

    GT : Yes, the problem is that we +

    gordon : Yes, the problem is that we have so many ports.

    -

    RW : The reason for this is for +

    rwatson : The reason for this is for rebundlers of FreeBSD in their environments. We don't have to have it for DP2 but it should be an ultimate goal. We might need to have a policy statement on this. That at date X all ports must use the new @@ -998,128 +1006,129 @@ system.

    -

    SL : I've been working on hardware +

    sam : I've been working on hardware crypto. I'm looking for consensus on getting hardware crypto in the kernel. This will not happen in 5.0.

    Syscall vector change for 64bits

    -

    MD : Two ways to go. Need to +

    dillon : Two ways to go. Need to create a new syscall vector. The other is to do a 1 off replacement. Prefer the former.

    -

    RW : Perhaps we need to create a +

    rwatson : Perhaps we need to create a FreeBSD 5 syscall vector. Could be a new ABI.

    -

    JE : Aren't there enough other numbers?

    +

    julian : Aren't there enough other numbers?

    -

    RW : That's one way to look at it +

    rwatson : That's one way to look at it and other platforms have done that? Is that too heavy weight?

    -

    JE : It sounds that way to me. +

    julian : It sounds that way to me. You end up having to replicate the old ones into the new one.

    -

    MD : The issue is about pollution.

    +

    dillon : The issue is about pollution.

    -

    DR : Seems like too much work for 5.x

    +

    dfr : Seems like too much work for 5.x

    -

    JE : It's more work. There are +

    julian : It's more work. There are now two places. Why not talk to OpenBSD?

    -

    RW : Should there be a BSD API? +

    rwatson : Should there be a BSD alfredI? Tough to do across projects.

    -

    DO : Who here is going to see that +

    obrien : Who here is going to see that through? We have not talked to NetBSD about even SMP.

    -

    AP : Does changing the syscall +

    alfred : Does changing the syscall table allow us to do clean up?

    -

    RW : We could do that without +

    rwatson : We could do that without doing 64bit syscall table.

    5.x ABI stability

    -

    RW : There are new functions in +

    rwatson : There are new functions in 5.x. At what point do we stop changing?

    -

    DR : When people start really using it.

    +

    dfr : When people start really using it.

    -

    RW : How do we tell? How did Solaris do it?

    +

    rwatson : How do we tell? How did Solaris do it?

    -

    Everyone : Know one knows.

    +

    Everyone : No one knows.

    -

    DR : It's too hard to add a +

    dfr : It's too hard to add a syscall vector. Library issues are a problem.

    -

    DO : We can use ELF to handle that.

    +

    obrien : We can use ELF to handle that.

    -

    DR : Let's just add 20 new +

    dfr : Let's just add 20 new syscalls instead of adding new work that we don't really really need.

    -

    RW : Punt on lack of time to do +

    rwatson : Punt on lack of time to do this.

    -

    MD : I see DO's point with the +

    dillon : I see obrien's point with the libraries but I have done this with time_t at 64 bits.

    devd

    -

    RW : The devd stuff was to +

    rwatson : The devd stuff was to integrate cardbus, newbus, etc.

    -

    JE : To monitor requests to mount +

    julian : To monitor requests to mount or create new devices.

    -

    RW : Is this a 5.0 requirement? +

    rwatson : Is this a 5.0 requirement? Is there anyone to do this?

    -

    GT (from IRC) : PHK has patches + +

    gordon (from IRC) : PHK has patches that make having devd unnecessary.

    -

    BD : Need something that does what +

    brooks : Need something that does what pccardd did.

    -

    JE : Need to be able to do this +

    julian : Need to be able to do this through a file.

    -

    WL : (from IRC): That's a 6.0 +

    warner : (from IRC): That's a 6.0 feature.

    -

    JE : It would not be a large step +

    julian : It would not be a large step to put something in the middle to handle this.

    -

    JE : Sometime in the 5 lifetime we +

    julian : Sometime in the 5 lifetime we need this.

    -

    WL : There is no way to monitor +

    warner : There is no way to monitor events in newbus but it would be easy to add.

    -

    JE : I'm not sure I understood you +

    julian : I'm not sure I understood you correctly.

    -

    WL : What happens now in a PCI is +

    warner : What happens now in a PCI is that it makes a call to pci_get_devid() and the driver would say "yes I am " or "no I'm not" so you'd have to change each of the busses to do this but that's not too tough because we have a small # of busses.

    -

    JB : Mike Smith gave us an +

    jhb : Mike Smith gave us an informal tour of OS/X. OS/X uses XML to do this. They have the DEVID in XML.

    -

    BD : I looked at some PCI drivers +

    brooks : I looked at some PCI drivers and some work that way but some don't.

    -

    JE : It seems to me we need to not +

    julian : It seems to me we need to not have to modify every single driver. If you've got a device that's not supported you ask all drivers. At the point when you run out you make an outcall. The outcall returns does a substitution.

    -

    RW : Time up, time to wrap up.

    +

    rwatson : Time up, time to wrap up.

    &footer; >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-www" in the body of the message