From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 10 13:53:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5DF37B400 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from directvinternet.com (dsl-65-185-140-165.telocity.com [65.185.140.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C9943E6E for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nwestfal@directvinternet.com) Received: from Tolstoy.home.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by directvinternet.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g8AKrJGd006203; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nwestfal@directvinternet.com) Received: from localhost (nwestfal@localhost) by Tolstoy.home.lan (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id g8AKrJpT006200; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Tolstoy.home.lan: nwestfal owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Neal E. Westfall" X-X-Sender: nwestfal@Tolstoy.home.lan To: Joshua Lee Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did evolution fail? In-Reply-To: <20020910152132.1134e18d.yid@softhome.net> Message-ID: <20020910134238.T35938-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Joshua Lee wrote: > > Since you like Teilhard De Chardin so much, do you agree with the > > statement of his that defenders of evolution "must never let > > themselves be deflected into secondary discussions of the scientific > > 'hows' and the metaphysical 'whys.'" Sounds like dogmatism to me. > > Yes, but De Chardin was as well as being a paleologist a theologian; who > did let the two mix. Don't ask me to defend all of his theology, I don't > agree with all of what little I know of it and I'm more familiar with > Rav Kook, whom I'm also not a follower of (mostly due to his stances on > Zionism) but I've studied his works; than De Chardin. However, your > claim that he's "not a xtian" seems specious because the Pope, a bit of > an authority on the subject, seemed to think he was. :-) What would make you think that the pope is an authority to anyone who is not Roman Catholic? > > W.T. Jones, who is certainly no Christian, noticed that scientists had > > "elevated Darwinism to the level of a religious dogma." (from his "A > > History of Western Philosophy") Theodosius Dobzhansky claims to be > > able to explain evolution "if the assumption is made that life arose > > from matter only once." ("Species after Darwin," A Century of Darwin > > (London: 1958), p. 22.) W.R. Thompson says in his Introduction to a > > current edition of Origin of Species "Personal convictions... are > > presented as if they were proofs." Paul Westmeyer declares: > > "Evolution is useful but it is a myth." ("Twentieth Century > > Mythology," Chemistry, January, 1965, p. 17) Need I say more? > > Neal, be honest for a change, have you actually read these sources? I never claimed to have read all those sources. How is that relevent? I was just demonstrating that I'm not the only one who thinks that evolution takes on a religious persona by those who espouse it. Oh, and by the way, there you go again. 8-) > > Uh, no. Never said non-christians cannot reason. I said that if they > > were consistent with their professed beliefs, they would not *in > > principle* be able to reason at all. The fact that they *do* reason > > is what makes them accountable to God. > > OK then, why would G-d give an ability to someone if it automatically > damns most human beings to eternal torture with the measure, rather than > how good the person is, to be where he happens to sit in the most > segregated hour of the week? Reason does not damn them, their sinful use of it without acknowledging it as a gift from God is what damns them. They claim not to know God, but their reasoning ability is evidence to them that he does exist. Neal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message