From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 9 02:27:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B46B37B401; Fri, 9 May 2003 02:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE6043F3F; Fri, 9 May 2003 02:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 5B7F3530F; Fri, 9 May 2003 11:27:53 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Paul Richards References: <20030501182820.GA53641@madman.celabo.org> <20030503201409.GA41554@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030505175428.GA19275@madman.celabo.org> <20030506170919.GD36798@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030506175557.GE79167@madman.celabo.org> <20030508161223.GL1869@survey.codeburst.net> <1052433233.619.27.camel@cf.freebsd-services.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 11:27:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1052433233.619.27.camel@cf.freebsd-services.com> (Paul Richards's message of "08 May 2003 23:33:54 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: David O'Brien cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: `Hiding' libc symbols X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 09:27:56 -0000 Paul Richards writes: > On Thu, 2003-05-08 at 22:30, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Paul Richards writes: > > > Any C code that isn't written according to the standard that defines > > > C is broken. > > That includes most of the FreeBSD source tree. > To some extent true, but we don't deliberately break the rules or > flagrantly disregard them. Yes, we do, because there are things that can't be done (at least not easily) within the standard. Using the same struct iovec for readv(2) and writev(2) results in const warnings, yet using different structs, or union tricks to make the same pointer be both const and not const, would result in significantly (and probably unacceptably) increased complexity and fragility. > > Now I know why people accuse us of elitism... > > > > Let's please not favor pedantry over robustness. > This isn't elitism. A professor or teacher is not elitist when they > correct the mistakes of less experienced pupils. FreeBSD should > highlight bad habits so people can see that they are making mistakes and > improve their skills. Our role is not to be the professor or teacher of the open source world, but rather to be the research technician who builds the tools that professors use in their research and teaching. As such, we should be aware that the professor is not solely interested in academically correct tools but also in tools that get the work done a little faster and a little cheaper, even if that means cutting corners or making concessions, so he can publish that paper and get that grant. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org