From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed May 13 16:05:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5E22FA02B for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 16:05:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49Mfdt6NZSz4DZP for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 16:05:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.143.112]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 51DA34E66B; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:05:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: mailman 3 on FreeBSD- or mailman replacement? To: Greg Veldman Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <17e9d3c4-2cab-922c-c3d8-1ebef0073556@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200513155844.GA1068@aurora.gregv.net> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <99191477-270b-3c3d-1c15-e762222cf498@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:05:21 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200513155844.GA1068@aurora.gregv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Mfdt6NZSz4DZP X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [8.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[112.143.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[112.143.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.000,0]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.21)[ip: (0.58), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.29), asn: 160(0.23), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 16:05:23 -0000 On 5/13/20 10:58 AM, Greg Veldman wrote: > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 09:48:38AM -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I'm sure I'm not the only one who runs mailman on FreeBSD servers. Now >> that python 2.7 is about to go, mailman 2 will follow. There is mailman >> 3 that is based on python 3. There is, however, no mailman 3 port. I >> wonder if someone already asked mailman port maintainer about mailman 3. >> I do not like to bother busy person(s) if someone already did. > > I was typing a reply to this when I saw Matthew's note come in, > I can't add anything to what he said so I won't try. ;-) > >> I kept repeating to people I work for who start using python as >> significant part of their work environment: Python is a sneaky snake. >> Namely, python paces fast with changing internals version to version >> (meaning minor versions here, not only major one). Thus, variety of >> modules one starts using have to keep up, but some may lag behind, then >> one may get stuck to older version of something, forcing older version >> of everything. Not to mention this whole thing being update nightmare. > > One could say the same thing of virtually any software written > in virtually any language. > > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_rot. It's a real > thing. > > Though to be fair to Python, I also run several sites based on > the Django web framework, including some that are fairly complex, > utilize a lot of packages for Django, and have significant local > development efforts invested. In the Python3 line, I've not yet > had a version upgrade that was anything more than a drop-in > replacement. The major issue between Python2 and Python3 is > they changed the way strings are represented internally, and it > turns out that's a fairly important change for a software package > that processes email messages all day... > >> This all leads me to my second question: maybe it is time to replace >> mailman with some other maillist suite. If someone already made this >> decision, could you share the reasons, and your new choice: > > I said this in the other thread the Matthew mentioned, but if > I had to switch off of Mailman to something else, in my mind > Sympa looks like the best option currently available, based on > my own personal criteria (which I won't get into here). > Thank you, Greg. I will do my reading on sympa. Then, maybe will ask some questions some place sympa experts are likely to be (here will be first choice ;-) Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++