From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 27 21:46:27 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B70106566C for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:46:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-gy0-f182.google.com (mail-gy0-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360758FC13 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:46:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by gyd8 with SMTP id 8so4063323gyd.13 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.173.199 with SMTP id v47mr56234394yhl.11.1319751984834; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-076-182-105-057.nc.res.rr.com. [76.182.105.57]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o50sm9460413yhl.9.2011.10.27.14.46.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio (zeus [192.168.1.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@scorpio.seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3SV1xp087Yz2CG47 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:46:21 -0400 From: Jerry To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20111027174621.2dda6bdc@scorpio> In-Reply-To: <20111027211132.78d4d1e4.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <15996.1319704110@tristatelogic.com> <1319712142.89939.YahooMailNeo@web36507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20111027172944.75a96733.freebsd@edvax.de> <4EA989C2.6060909@infracaninophile.co.uk> <20111027133905.34315b83@scorpio> <20111027211132.78d4d1e4.freebsd@edvax.de> Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.10 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.2) Face: 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 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Fast personal printing _without_ CUPS X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: FreeBSD List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:46:27 -0000 On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:11:32 +0200 Polytropon articulated: > On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:39:05 -0400, Jerry wrote: > > Printing under MS Windows is a breeze. > > > The *nix community has never > > gotten printing up to that lever. > > It _had_, past tense. :-) > > > While there are those who continually > > blame the "manufacturers", the truth is that any COO, CFO {or any > > other alphabetic combination that you like} that seriously proposed > > the creation of a department dedicated to the writing of drivers for > > non-windows based systems, a department that would therefore have a > > zero based projected cash flow, would be removed from office > > posthaste. > > Fully agree, but if established standards would have > been truly adopted by the manufactueres for their > products, there would be no need to develop any drivers. > One standard interface could address all printer > functionality, and maybe even more, such as scanning > or faxing functionalities quite common in the "egg-laying > wool-milk-sows" we see on the consumer markets. First of all let me say that I love standards; there are so many of them to choose from. Secondly, I seriously hope that never comes to pass. Once you lock yourself into one specific interface the ability to innovate has been removed. I cannot think of a worse possible scenario. Three million years ago a branch of man figured out that he could sharpen a stone and use it to cut with. A new standard was born. One million years later that same branch had not figured out that they could attach a short piece of wood to that stone thus creating a handle and a new tool. They died out obviously. A perfect example of what happens when you cannot adapt. Standards in some circumstances may have their place; however, when they lock you into a culture where you are unable to adapt to newer technology or where your ability to innovate has been squashed, then you too are doomed to oblivion. > Sadly, "the one standard" doesn't seem to exist, and > manufacturers are not willing to discuss one. Of course, > such a standard would have to be free and open, so any > OS could implement it. There you go putting restriction on how such an "standard" should be implemented. I have a better idea. Why doesn't the *nix/*BSD {pick any other letter combination that turns you on} agree to one uniform method of implementing printer drivers and then let the manufacturers implement it on their end. I have spoke to two company reps in the past year, one regarding printers, and both stated outright that the thought of writing and maintaining drivers on a multitude of platforms scares them to death. The problem is not with the manufacturers but rather with the fragmentation of the non-windows arena. I remember when "Hayes" ruled the modem world. The "Hayes command set" was the de facto standard. The along came U.S. Robotics and said, "Screw you Hayes and your friggin command set. We can do it faster and better without your crap." And, they did. The same can be said about Epson and their printer command set. Hell, the list goes on and on. Today, PS or PCL (there are strong supports on both sides of the aisle) might be king, but what about tomorrow. Locking yourself into any technology is suicide. Classical "Dinosaur Thinking" as it is referred to in the business world. You do know what happened to those creatures when they could not adapt don't you. The fact that companies do not directly support *BSD, etcetera is not news. The fact that FreeBSD does not support the technology that is available (does the phase "N Protocol ring a bell") is the problem that should be addressed. > There's a reason for that: Companies that develop > printers want money. They need to continuously sell > printers, and there's an ongoing "renewal" of hardware > and software, e. g. new printer requires new OS, new > OS requires new printer. This is done by planned > obsolescense. You can make that statement in regards to cars, airplanes, etcetera. It is just an empty sound bite. By the way, since the days of DOS, I have never purchased a printer that then required me to update my OS. > Just imagine you had a printer that would work with > any OS. First of all, you wouldn't buy a "Windows", > so the deal between the manufacturer and MICROS~1 > would break: "We make our devices for your 'Windows', > you tell us about your interfaces, and we make a > driver for your current product." You would be able > to use your printer with a free OS. Furthermore, > if this free OS got updated, you would continue > using your printer because the new OS would also > support it, unlike "Windows" that would not have > support for the printer anymore, encouraging you > to buy a new one. I have the ability to use a driver from Win95 up to XP, and in a few case even Vista. On the other hand, updating FreeBSD to a new major version number and in the case of the nVidia display driver even a minor number, causes me to force a rebuild of the system. Just for clarification, a minor system update with nVidia only causes me to have to rebuild that port. The same exists also for at least LSOF. There may be more however. At some point though support for anything will cease, unless you prefer to live in the dinosaur age. > On the other hand, this business model benefits the > development of new technology (financed by unit > sales), and making technology cheaper to purchase. Business 101 I know dozens of college students that use inexpensive ink-jets printers because the are: 1) inexpensive 2) easy to install Trying to get an ink-jet printer to work on FreeBSD can be a whole new experience in frustration. The manufacturers created a product to fit a particular niche in the market place. The fact that FreeBSD cannot accommodate that is a problem. I just spent several hours trying to convert a linux printer driver to work on FreeBSD. Of course, both platforms use a different hierarchy which then requires me to attempt to manually modify the files to point to the right location, etcetera. I still have not gotten it to work. This is with only one driver on one PC. I can easily see why any manufacturer would not want to be bothered with this bullshit. Microsoft has used the same basic method for the installation of printer drivers since Win95. However, you cannot even get Linux/*BSD, etcetera to agree on a common, uniform hierarchy for and method of implementing printer drivers. I couldn't care less if they used CUPS. LPR or whatever just as long as they get a unified method in place. If such a system were in place, there would be no problem in getting developers to write the necessary drivers. Hell, if they did it right they could use the Windows drivers. However, we both know that they (the OS developers) would rather bite off their nose than do that out of pure spite. -- Jerry ✌ jerry+fbsd@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or ignored. Do not CC this poster. Please do not ignore the "Reply-To" header. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html