From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed May 6 09:57:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24E313E284 for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 09:57:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49HBpV41TCz4QZv for ; Wed, 6 May 2020 09:57:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.16]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MwfrG-1jBrWv3IB0-00y9g9; Wed, 06 May 2020 11:57:19 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 11:57:19 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Shamim Shahriar , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: bsd install Message-Id: <20200506115719.afb73ae0.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200505203456.8b85330a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200505211848.b6d81e98.freebsd@edvax.de> <8577cb33-9a32-a0f7-01ab-e18d4e19296d@gmail.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SAzmYNxBP8VdqQ39gXIajXmbH+mZ4BGUGMs7aAA1PDeIXcNXUWe ua6mmi8btkoi/WuAou0ftim5xIedbZMRa4XVuR/FcNDwPvvppkMTp+DYuDG3DXPRHY/WHef JSETaEN+SSQT/xw1HfDaOe5l9pt1xzA/bWlGG+qkdEhYgGYAd3KgyNON7V4ykEwCb8nPe8W L7vTtJz9/CPqr4EY/mENg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Y4ScL9qmqWU=:oIQpPwl4sPMq7fXEHnISDl lXxTAjBU2uy0PQE1eJ4SJqflEpJj87M+ZETCyEJAEvOM8xNpR78CfzCJBSO8dCYVXQB96vxHv kR/g5JI2gbApNaC6jYI1rK/EOaTVczs+Qg/ZNMcug8FO8dDg/cO9M/DiIPM+eAtpHewvQy75e mx2ar3Ss5nv3dEWN4U8V8BeW542u5V+MGgOPYDiujGRCsgScZ/FeBRXQe9fBFHfL2wLTfjhE5 x96RuyQjArVrQopDPdark7A8FpAAsnlOx62r5RAjOf76F8I5yNHqd3NAGwye/PhXTfBh8UU/V JWekVXSrIjM1k3RqWhfVqhC6G6idNr3qkE03SBObtXQ9VIQ38Jd0MqG4EfC9n48FtVrE+clSA tisMulfVein75bH6smI8jQUWF9cTdub1etw9xnnEEsWGnLfA4rk+uWdB5n+Ry7qHtc0POpixE gtxFXC0pYRuwF095gVW8nKpDPG+YM+NWJ0Ls3u5axKkyuSfbLhkseUjvj0Mt3l9423b6RXbYv 3nHe46hTaNAIsrAc3f9ckAwexBMYmQhe4jjsEp96EbphqHip8Lnf+wa7Fu4nI2vKBZh74CqBZ Pb195wTJIEduJs77u0YLUUcbzR5lm+d7nCyrcFadF0oe7tUI53ohDi6efh+u3OAWUZR86sD6S AhAIizbP8CDFbK9+o1PQIfICu70bEhqhQcGF26bDRDfgRfglJ0Z9V3D6e2D9clcDkliAVBXmH HKPnwNANzQK1aDX6iyqPHm5Rrz7mJ6TjbD7boah5ygtHYwYcqfSTDMJd1DKSvyh5vg+RHmMAG PbMli3CeZ7hHgwX5tCDCRexW7dHEgMSKslbnW+fjZ8iZgZ9siXKI7DlouyBgu60VAEiNP3u X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49HBpV41TCz4QZv X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.19 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; IP_SCORE(0.22)[ip: (0.27), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.03), country: DE(-0.02)]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[16.27.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.59)[0.586,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.982,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.30 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 09:57:23 -0000 On Wed, 6 May 2020 04:59:14 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > It almost certainly does not help to have your attitude towards beginners > with thinking like this, which luckily is not everyone on the list, no > wonder FreeBSD has the reputation it has for being unfriendly (I would > agree it is not a OS meant for beginners it doesn't mean we should push > them away). In my opinion and experience, the FreeBSD community is one of the friendliest (!) I have encountered so far. Where does the reputation of being unfriendly come from? I'm not asking this in any kind of impolite tone, I'm really interested in who thinks and says this community is unfriendly... > This is the beginners list, after all, according to the Handbook -- not one > of the more specialized lists where expectations of RTFM are more > appropriate. Note that even on other lists the OP is being treated with a > much more open mind (ex. see his bhyve thread on -virtualization@) Don't confuse friendliness with endless tolerance of rude behaviour. Even for a beginners' list, there is the common suggestion of "doing your homework", as well as maintaining a certain discussion culture. Aspects of this are part of what is widely understood as "netiquette". Just allow me to mention a few things that I find problematic: - messages with the question (or just bullet points) in the subject, no body - messages with no subject, just a short question or state- ment in the body - not mentioning the OS version, program version, or hardware brand and model the question is about - not providing what has been done, and what the result was - not accepting the "posting rules" of the list (here: inline replies, shortening and summarizing possible) Yes, I know: If someone can only access your mail with some dysfunctional smartphone app that was obviously made for people who have no clue what they're doing, then following all those suggestions can be quite problematic. But again, if you seek help for free (i. e., paid by others' time!), you should first make sure your communication equipment is compatible. Everything else just leads to follow-up questions and guesswork, and that has never been a good foundation. As you said, RTFM is just a part of the whole "homework", but it's also an important one. Not being able to understand all terminology and everything mentioned is not a problem. But not _trying_ might be... Blindly followint things mentioned in the handbook and other places usually does not lead to everything magically working, especially if the stuff mentioned there doesn't even apply to the current setting, or doesn't apply anymore. In my opinion, there are certain readers who will follow a structured manual in the form of "if X then A else B" by doing A _and_ B (just in the order as they are listed, not even looking at condition X), and then start complaining. I don't know if this applies here; not enough information, does not compute. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...