From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 17 13:15:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (purgatory.xs4all.nl [194.109.237.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A5E37B407 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@unfix.org) Received: from HELL (hell.unfix.org [::ffff:10.100.13.66]) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix+IPv6) with ESMTP id 27BB23146; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:15:06 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Jordan Hubbard'" Cc: Subject: RE: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:12:49 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <002901c0f769$e3fcdbc0$420d640a@HELL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 In-Reply-To: <20010617112712J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Jeroen Massar" wrote: > > It all sounds really odd to me but alas a cat does stupid things when it gets cornered... > > I sincerely hope that you BSD guys&gals stay far far away from the > > "microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to hell"-attitude. ^-- did you notice this piece.... I hope you did.... I really didn't take the time of searching for those references, which you asked for ("confirming or disproving this assertion") just to kick you down or something. It was also only a figure of speech... I was only "warning" (big word :) for the stuff that happened to especially all those linux advocates (see slashdot.org for your daily propaganda :) and/or what happened back in the Amiga vs Windows vs Atari etc days. http://www.openbsd.org/goals.html luckily states: "Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit." That goes for OpenBSD and I think/hope for all the other BSD's, I hope you understand what I mean with all of this :) > 1. We're not cornered. But you are doing propaganda actions (newpaper :)... which for some people really leeds to think that you are... I am also wondering why you wanted to get a complete press release out so quickly but that we'll all see on Monday :) I am glad you sorted me out on that point, got me a bit worried though. > 2. We're not bashing Microsoft here. We're just trying to figure > out if their recently published comments that "Open Source is bad > and inimical to our interests" is really just marketspeak which > contradicts their own engineering position. Well the marketing division of Microsoft prolly never reported any negative cashflow :) Then again you are kinda indicating here that you are worried as you do respond to something you think is very propaganda alike. And in another thread (Summary: Is Microsoft using the BSD TCP/IP stack?): > It's apparently just not possible to really tell for sure without > looking at the source code, and it was not possible to get ahold of > any of the University licensee's or Microsoft developers in time to go > into that level of detail. There were a few "telltales", however, > such as the TCP initial window in Windows 2000 being exactly the same > as FreeBSD and OpenBSD and a few headers in Microsoft Visual studio, > as well as various userland utilities, bearing the BSD trademark. You could also have checked out http://research.microsoft.com/msripv6/ which has full source code to the IPv6 stack, though it's the Research version, so it's not exactly what's going production in WinXP (as currently found in the beta's :). And the "headers" only describe the BSD API which is, I repeat, in use by almost any TCP/IP stack there is, so there is absoletely no conclusion you can take from that. One can very easily "port" a BSD-socket API using program by adding the opening&closing of the winsock.dll which is the biggest part you'll need to do unless you are using things like raw sockets and such (see http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/devprods/vs6/visualc/vccore/_core_port :) The userland tools are very probably based on the BSD code though but in what extent... that's really hard to say, and they've probabably also been very much altered. > In any case, I'd like to thank everyone for their help and suggest > that those interested read Monday's (June 18th) Wall Street Journal > for some of the results of their research. I'll surelly check it out to see what it states... I hope this at least makes my point clear as I am really not advocating any OS whatsoever... (Amiga Rulez :) Greets, Jeroen PS: rest of the discussion can prolly go to /dev/null as it won't have any more impact on the newspaper thingy, I just wanted it straightened from my side. PS2: Jordan... 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