From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu May 28 22:22:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C82E2FF56F for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 22:22:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49Y2Hb3WLRz4Hp0 for ; Thu, 28 May 2020 22:22:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.95.28]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MaIvT-1jSd6M2bKP-00WEDr; Fri, 29 May 2020 00:21:55 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 00:21:55 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Back to the topic of the original thread: FreeBSD Cert Message-Id: <20200529002155.774696fe.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200528224701.7cc6f222@archlinux> References: <20200527203627.2c9faae5@archlinux> <21722039-a01f-37d3-e035-6be2950485e2@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200528022232.662100a3@archlinux> <0e7aa839-eecf-37f7-4498-4ecc73f44689@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200528164705.278f3983.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200528162637.73917881c2c395f80a5384fc@sohara.org> <20200528170047.d55ed6402f71c9b2558c78bc@sohara.org> <20200528193512.7fcf9192@archlinux> <20200528204832.7bf83e2b@archlinux> <20200528224701.7cc6f222@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:D8zcgtHG9IzhF1uBd7zj+pdJPBgmd2krkkauU1QMW1bm7KHwPH7 P4+4YaL+5/SEl+Fnt30E+QOKGnoVDw8Y45jmW66ybGSy0lu/N/jRK2j3yRSkM3lSXXCDxTl C6HsYNHblVnerN2ebflWoQa04cZb1Ob2SjRKyttxPfr3doT8FiZ7PpRma61AmAkN8mvb+xw lr1elgvuNwUVLlu3rbTZg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:xmCrFIFqw3U=:CTeWan5D67QOYJUAOM+G9n 8DXXAlPUHklVEtMU8mont1cJQ1xjdP1kgmWEz+j55AzUPvIO+FKzOQk/fbXyifAc8PVMZPs7P YUCoZljFuWkn25dyQxFLQ8+s35Gam62DVdYcJEYGl1uFAaOBQFoPAUZHTkptj9pIkLlT8jtYA vHdiLVA5qOAlP6i5mmC6yfZq39uj+MONd1p6bG/velGJNyzWEu/rwyDOG0d+ymSeMqbhrKaTC D4g0rzgSuxrC7S1dhM9v2VbgSN9rndxJpwivCMh3XdyhH1fqyInQv8vDE3JCve1c7i6mV00bO IU9Yz5Tj3fOkkGmhUhvCAAfdeSkmaR7Da98zcmQCA2xBj3mnUsJij3qJ+cYbdZIUWgJ3DJ2qk t24aUHA9AmUC9Iu302lO9L1uBmSW2b5+EuUslDorU7SnNX72gp6EWOw29zzxDXEXSai14umoN kC9JgFiSGZNvXqOxBJZtJooF6qk9PTz/OBcdA8b1hxuXDS3jHq0JCv1DM4ZLRfo4WgvLTsbhJ DwEvoMoxpp2nHpcstzzk26X8aysjHXDUKyn2D7XkFmIayL2KTxWIZH69GwO03KyvShp8TlrAG ZUdLbVNsuN4SXRO/NpH33qs10g0jsK/5j3ilmN8UBabWb9lBA4BmRWxI2WMnbpkVEuzL5XCkB TysaApGsU0N0vuWbaBVfrLjQiX24Pxmmoj1qWL05cmgRJmbU0MX9Nb8fN+ZSJWWWVGq6UvB3m Q8Vy9A4IMW07mpfwqJWyMrHwh2wQ4pnWLUxCGnYrx+KcqG4LxA2EdxvoeLCMCefhnY1/q0bZS /dCowhtebCkdfBRTi7QZL7d5L5brJCEcBMMxoiejcF9bF35w92nUJqTeVXxQ4fG+3DOQGoh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49Y2Hb3WLRz4Hp0 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.95 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.95.28:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.00)[-0.003]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.02)[0.022]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.526]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 22:22:04 -0000 On Thu, 28 May 2020 22:47:01 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > It's trivial to _program_ a digital video recorder to automatically > record a television programme, [...] Yes, but only for _old_ people! :-) > [...] but it's not trivial to translate data > into _code_. It's not just data - it's concepts (of behaviour, of data, of calculations, of interactions, of data exchange, of communications, of hardware control, etc.). > In the end it's not that important for this thread, so > back to the topic: > > Important is that UNIX alike operating systems have got a login shell > that is useful for an admin, poweruser and even for the clueless user to > customize the machine, to the user's (operator's) needs. So starting > with writing scripts is essential, starting with learning how to > maintain a port is grotesque. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scripter Not neccessarily. Allow me to explain: The goal (!) to maintain a port will inevitably require a certain skillset. Being able to use a computer running FreeBSD, using the shell, dealing with shell scripts, and probably learning to use the tools involed in the ports infrastructure is _needed_ to maintain a port. So while "maintaining a port" can be seen as a distant goal, it can be a valid goal to learn the fundamental knowledge and gain the required experience to become a valuable port maintainer. Of course it technically doesn't start with "the port"; it starts with the basics. > Using and customizing/optimizing a computer neither requires programmer > nor coder skills. Most could be done by using existing software and > writing shell scripts. Even a disgusting bad written shell script could > do the wanted job. I know that, I have _one_ (in numbers: 1) written in C shell. :-) > Scripts are portable. They _should_ be. > Getting used to man(ual) pages is very useful. Definitely. Commands like "man" and "apropos" are essential to acquire basic knowledge, but as you correctly pointed out, "using" man pages is more than reading: they have a specific format, and they present information in a certain way one needs to get used to; they are not a HOWTO or a README or DOMYHOMEWORK. :-) > Learning how to use a terminal emulation is very useful. Plus, discovering different editors, choosing, and mastering at least one editor is useful. It doesn't matter which editor it is. I would also say that there are certain tools that can be helpful, like the Midnight Commander for file management, rsync or cpdup for data exchange, of course archivers and compressors, and maybe even all the small things that usually make it into scripts, like sed, awk, cut, paste, wc, tr, and other little "moving parts" that help in automating things. I wouldn't say you're lost as a port maintainer if you don't know those tools, but depending on _what_ exactly you need to do, they can be a great advantage. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...