From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 12 1:41:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DF337B400 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 01:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B60443E3B for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 01:41:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yid@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 23427 invoked by uid 417); 12 Sep 2002 08:41:55 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 12 Sep 2002 08:41:55 -0000 Received: from planb ([216.194.2.204]) (AUTH: LOGIN yid@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:41:53 -0600 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 04:41:53 -0400 From: Joshua Lee To: Zach Heilig Cc: drew-dated-1032126947.90fe3e@rain3s.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did evolution fail? Message-Id: <20020912044153.4396d498.yid@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: <20020911191224.GA10929@uffdaonline.net> References: <20020909215202.78267872.yid@softhome.net> <20020910094316.H62741-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan> <20020910152310.5e6e2964.yid@softhome.net> <20020910215545.GI4470@drew.rain3s.net> <20020911071845.43665d57.yid@softhome.net> <20020911191224.GA10929@uffdaonline.net> Organization: Plan B Software Labs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:12:24 -0500 Zach Heilig wrote: > On Wed, Sep 11, 2002 at 07:18:45AM -0400, Joshua Lee wrote: > > Drew Raines wrote: > > > Romans 3:23 all over again. We all live our lives deserving > > > eternal punishment. This is the reason we worship Christ, our > > > I'm Jewish, so quotations from the NT aren't particularly convincing > > to me. You'll have to convince me with reason, which I doubt can be > > mustered to defend this idea of eternal-torture-by-god. > > Now I'm confused... I always considered death to mean something > closer to comatose rather than eternal torture. And I have yet another view. > Rom. 8:23 "For the wages of sin is *death*..." > Rev. 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first > Rev. 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, This thread is starting to degenerate into Bible thumping. Although passages from the Tanakh and from our sages z"l are convincing to me when well understood, quoting from the NT will do nothing for me but generate a yawn. :-) > and there are passages to suggest that it all does come to an end, > eventually: > > Rev. 21:4 "And God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; there Origen was of the opinion that even the devil would be redeemed, and that eternal torture in hell was merely a doctrine to keep the unenlightened masses behaving themselves. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message