From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sat Aug 6 15:09:36 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E248BAF749 for ; Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:09:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaduk@mit.edu) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-6.mit.edu [18.7.68.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE9A41CD0; Sat, 6 Aug 2016 15:09:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaduk@mit.edu) X-AuditID: 12074423-417ff70000001b26-fb-57a5fdac8b39 Received: from mailhub-auth-3.mit.edu ( [18.9.21.43]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id AE.DB.06950.CADF5A75; Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) by mailhub-auth-3.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id u76F9VFM021435; Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:09:31 -0400 Received: from multics.mit.edu (system-low-sipb.mit.edu [18.187.2.37]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id u76F9PQu014803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:09:30 -0400 Received: (from kaduk@localhost) by multics.mit.edu (8.12.9.20060308) id u76F9OqL007586; Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:09:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Baptiste Daroussin cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Andrey Chernov , Mark Martinec , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: date(1) default format changed between 10.3 and 11.0-BETA3 In-Reply-To: <20160806100053.5fpf27pcgona7czp@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> Message-ID: References: <3629a441-ee6d-2407-fa13-5ebd8db8d802@freebsd.org> <000c29ee0f3dbd1d433c565023d69e25@mailbox.ijs.si> <279e9b67-da23-cdd6-3a77-b084ad8269eb@freebsd.org> <4a454eef-55ae-b90d-4441-2aa9708fc747@freebsd.org> <20160806041536.GL86883@eureka.lemis.com> <20160806100053.5fpf27pcgona7czp@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (GSO 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrIIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixCmqrbv279Jwg5WPmC2Onehhsvj96yKr xZw3H5gsPn75x2zxr/kjqwOrx4xP81k8tryfyxrAFMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVcfrzP5aCU9wV /0/8ZW5gbObsYuTkkBAwkTi2/w9jFyMXh5BAG5PEvPYPTBDOBkaJxXthMgeZJL7MXc8E0iIk UC8x/8MhVhCbRUBLormhnQ3EZhNQkZj5ZiOYLSKgKbHx214WEJtZYCujxMQLjCC2sIC7RP+f hcwgNqeAi8SePb1gNq+Ag0Tzu5/sEMuaWSR+9DaCJUQFdCRW75/CAlEkKHFy5hOooVoSy6dv Y5nAKDALSWoWktQCRqZVjLIpuVW6uYmZOcWpybrFyYl5ealFumZ6uZkleqkppZsYQSHL7qK8 g/Fln/chRgEORiUe3gXrloQLsSaWFVfmHmKU5GBSEuU9fxkoxJeUn1KZkVicEV9UmpNafIhR goNZSYS34NvScCHelMTKqtSifJiUNAeLkjjv9m/t4UIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZGQ4OJQneJX+A GgWLUtNTK9Iyc0oQ0kwcnCDDeYCG+4HU8BYXJOYWZ6ZD5E8xKkqJ8zqDJARAEhmleXC94JSy m0n1FaM40CvCvPEgVTzAdATX/QpoMBPQ4I9WS0AGlyQipKQaGLPNOL29ql8GBLxeY3T987Fv kT1fj92afaopLHUn63kFGTGxpFNpe2oyjRrsmzu3xWm2Ld3JvtbA+ZroFIHkY5/3XL38cEfX /xPNa/6+Sr79+fnzNMYktufM+xglXB2bfkT+Yy5fUywe31SyZOPBV4vDUxp+K+1uc+D1uMqX xruh5wJj+vaGAiWW4oxEQy3mouJEALxGS5EEAwAA X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2016 15:09:36 -0000 On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 02:15:36PM +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > On Friday, 5 August 2016 at 18:56:33 +0300, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > > > On 05.08.2016 18:44, Mark Martinec wrote: > > >> On 2016-08-05 17:23, Andrey Chernov wrote: > > >> > > >> POSIX does say that the default format should be the same > > >> as with "+%a %b %e %H:%M:%S %Z %Y". > > >> It also says that %a and %b are locale's abbreviated names. > > > > > > It is true for _POSIX_ locale only, as I already say. en_US.* is not > > > POSIX or C locale. > > > > It still violates POLA. > > > I really do not think that it violates POLA fiven that the behaviour you are > expecting is still available in the default configurtion that is still POSIX. Regardless, at a new major release is precisely when it is permissible to break POLA. > Set LC_TIME to C and then you are back on your behaviour (and this is the > default when you install FreeBSD). > > locales should be seen as tzdata for exemple, they are a moving target > complicated to handle for every locale we do support: 78 for 11.0-RELEASE and > 193 if we do count the encoding variants. locales are updated very often (for > exemple cldr unicode make a new release of the data every 8 month or so) As I understand it, your change will improve the maintainability of locales in FreeBSD in the future, which justifies a POLA break at the release boundary. -Ben