From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 00:21:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11141 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA11131 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA04450; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:21:20 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA03933; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:15:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970601091500.HT19999@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:15:00 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu Subject: Re: learn program References: <199706010344.UAA27051@envy.ugcs.caltech.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706010344.UAA27051@envy.ugcs.caltech.edu>; from jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu on May 31, 1997 20:44:45 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu wrote: > A while ago there was some discussion about a learn program on one of > the mailing lists. Well, I found this: > http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/bwk/learn.tar.gz on Kernighan's web page. Oh! Well, you shouldn't be surprised to know that it's not an incident that learn now finally appeared on Brian's webpage. It hasn't been there from the beginning... I think thanks have to go, of course, to Brian himself first, for freeing up this very early piece of Unix history, to Kevin Eliuk (who's got the idea to ask for this program), and Annelise Anderson (not an unknown person for us, Annelise is also in the Donor's gallery), for tracking this, so Brian has finally been asked to release it. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 02:23:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA15305 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA15296 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA05083; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:22:18 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04692; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:20:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970601112053.SJ08285@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:20:53 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu (Annelise Anderson), kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net (Kevin Eliuk), chris@bb.cc.wa.us (Chris Coleman) Subject: Re: learn program References: <199706010344.UAA27051@envy.ugcs.caltech.edu> <19970601091500.HT19999@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970601091500.HT19999@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Jun 1, 1997 09:15:00 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wrote: > As jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu wrote: > > > A while ago there was some discussion about a learn program on one of > > the mailing lists. Well, I found this: > > http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/bwk/learn.tar.gz on Kernighan's web page. > > Oh! > I think thanks have to go, of course, to Brian himself first, for > freeing up this very early piece of Unix history, to Kevin Eliuk > (who's got the idea to ask for this program), and Annelise Anderson > (not an unknown person for us, Annelise is also in the Donor's > gallery), for tracking this, so Brian has finally been asked to > release it. I fetched it, and have a look. Please be careful, and don't run this program as root. I don't think it's what i would call the latest peek in computer security. :) (No surprise, but you should know it.) The ar archives contained there contain pathnames with trailing slashes, so our ar(1) can't create them (since they are required to be directories in Posix). Below is a quick Perl hack that converts the pathnames in the archives. I've also fixed all occurances of gets() in the source, as well as a bug that could lead to calling rm(1) without a directory name (if you hit ^C early in the game). Also, i think the `play' subdirectory should ultimately go under /tmp. #!/usr/bin/perl die "usage: arfix filename\n" unless $#ARGV == 0; open(AR, $ARGV[0]) || die "Can't open $ARGV[0]\n"; open(NEW, ">$ARGV[0].$$") || die "Can't open tempfile.\n"; $sig = ; die "ARGV[0] is not an ar archive\n" unless $sig eq "!\n"; print NEW $sig; while () { if ($_ eq "\n") { # hack print NEW "\n"; next; } ($path, $tstamp, $uid, $gid, $mode, $len) = split; $path =~ s|/$||; printf NEW "%-15s %-11d %-5d %-5d %-7d %-9d \`\n", $path, $tstamp, $uid, $gid, $mode, $len; $r = read(AR, $b, $len); print NEW $b; } close(AR); close(NEW); rename($ARGV[0], "$ARGV[0].bak"); rename("$ARGV[0].$$", $ARGV[0]); exit 0; --- learn.c.orig Wed May 28 20:29:56 1997 +++ learn.c Sun Jun 1 11:11:02 1997 @@ -2,6 +2,7 @@ #include "learn.h" #include "signal.h" #include +#include char *direct = LLIB; /* CHANGE THIS ON YOUR SYSTEM */ int more; @@ -365,12 +366,12 @@ wrong > 1 ? "still " : ""); fflush(stdout); for(;;) { - gets(tbuff); + fgets(tbuff, sizeof tbuff, stdin); if (tbuff[0] == 'y') { printf("Try the problem again.\n"); fflush(stdout); goto retry; - } else if (strcmp(tbuff, "bye") == 0) { + } else if (strncmp(tbuff, "bye", strlen("bye")) == 0) { wrapup(1); } else if (tbuff[0] == 'n') { wrong = 0; @@ -703,7 +704,7 @@ } chknam(direct); if (chdir(direct) != 0) { - fprintf(stderr, "can't cd to %s\,", direct); + fprintf(stderr, "can't cd to %s\n", direct); exit(1); } sname = argc > 1 ? argv[1] : 0; @@ -721,16 +722,17 @@ printf("type 'return'; otherwise type the name of\n"); printf("the course you want, followed by 'return'.\n"); fflush(stdout); - gets(sname=subname); + fgets(sname=subname, sizeof subname, stdin); if (sname[0] == '\0') { list("Xinfo"); do { printf("\nWhich subject? "); fflush(stdout); - gets(sname=subname); + fgets(sname=subname, sizeof subname, stdin); } while (sname[0] == '\0'); } } + if ((cp = strchr(sname, '\n'))) *cp = 0; chknam(sname); if (!level) { printf("If you were in the middle of this subject\n"); @@ -738,7 +740,8 @@ printf("the last lesson number the computer printed.\n"); printf("To start at the beginning, just hit return.\n"); fflush(stdout); - gets(ans2); + fgets(ans2, sizeof ans2, stdin); + if ((cp = strchr(ans2, '\n'))) *cp = 0; if (ans2[0]==0) strcpy(ans2,"0"); for (cp=ans2; *cp; cp++) @@ -787,7 +790,7 @@ selunit() { - char fnam[20], s[50]; + char fnam[20], s[50], *cp; static char dobuff[50]; char posslev[20][20]; int diff[20], i, k, m, n, best, alts; @@ -798,7 +801,8 @@ while (ask) { printf("What lesson? "); fflush(stdout); - gets(dobuff); + fgets(dobuff, sizeof dobuff, stdin); + if ((cp = strchr(dobuff, '\n'))) *cp = 0; if (strcmp(dobuff, "bye") == 0) wrapup(0); level = todo = dobuff; @@ -971,14 +975,16 @@ interrupts turned off */ int retval, pid, pidw; - signal(SIGINT, SIG_IGN); - chdir(".."); - if ( (pid=fork()) ==0) { - signal(SIGHUP, SIG_IGN); - execl("/bin/rm", "rm", "-r", dir, 0); - execl("/usr/bin/rm", "rm", "-r", dir, 0); - fprintf(stderr, "Can't find 'rm' command.\n"); - exit(0); + if (dir) { + signal(SIGINT, SIG_IGN); + chdir(".."); + if ( (pid=fork()) ==0) { + signal(SIGHUP, SIG_IGN); + execl("/bin/rm", "rm", "-r", dir, 0); + execl("/usr/bin/rm", "rm", "-r", dir, 0); + fprintf(stderr, "Can't find 'rm' command.\n"); + exit(0); + } } printf("Bye.\n"); /* not only does this reassure user but it stalls for time while deleting directory */ -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 11:37:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00367 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00362 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10822; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:36:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu, Kevin Eliuk , Chris Coleman Subject: Re: learn program In-Reply-To: <19970601112053.SJ08285@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > I wrote: > > > As jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu wrote: > > > > > A while ago there was some discussion about a learn program on one of > > > the mailing lists. Well, I found this: > > > http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/bwk/learn.tar.gz on Kernighan's web page. > > I fetched it, and have a look. Please be careful, and don't run this > program as root. I don't think it's what i would call the latest peek > in computer security. :) (No surprise, but you should know it.) [ ... ] The source code for the version Stanford is using (it runs on all their distributed computing machines--various unix versions) is on my anonymous ftp server at andrsn.stanford.edu, in the pub directory. They also may have fixed up some of the problems. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 14:43:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06368 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06363 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id RAA32408; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:43:29 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:43:29 -0400 Message-Id: <199706012143.RAA32408@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: shag@concentric.net CC: syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <338F2F83.55301D85@concentric.net> (message from Joshua Fielden on Fri, 30 May 1997 13:50:27 -0600) Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >SCSI can still only access two devices at any given time, one initiator > and one target. SCSI II >allows for "disconnect" which means a drive can aquire a queue of >commands, remove itself from the bus, and reattatch when finished >processing those commands, but it obviously is no help for read/write >operations. :-) It does speed things up, but not quite to the extent I >believe you are thinking of. Although it is nice for long seek operations on devices such as CD-ROMs, tapes, scanners, etc, etc. And the bus mastering issue is wonderful for multimedia, but its effectiveness is lessened without disconnect. >> Or I could buy an 8x SCSI CD-ROM for twice the price of the same model >> drive with IDE interface. Sigh. >A CD-ROM was always so slow that there would >be little improvement and I had these IDE busses "rusting" on my board, >so I have always gone ATAPI for CD-ROM, but with 16x, I'm not so sure >about that. I would say for 8x, don't bother with SCSI if you already >have the bus, and you get the added bonus of accessing IDE and SCSI in >parallel. i.e: read from the CD and write to the drive simultaneously. Really? I have a decent number of CD-ROM games that rely heavily on multimedia operations, and my old Texel 2x CD-ROM kept up with apps that normally wanted a 4x with no sweat. I had attributed this to disconnect and bus mastering, myself. >I have run three mixed IDE/SCSI machines, and used to work for FWB >Software, who makes IDE and SCSI device drivers for Mac and Windows, and >never have I seen a true benchmark that puts equivalent EIDE drives near >enough to SCSI performance to warrant consideration, except for the >newer 7200 RPM EIDE that have come out. Of course, I'm also the guy they >used to play "guess the drive speed" with at work, because after 1/2 >hr-45 minutes I could tell you which was the fastest/slowest drive on a >system with differences of only a couple of ms, so I'm a tad biased. :-) But for drives, benchmarks rarely are a good indicator of RL performance. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 14:46:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06465 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06460 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id RAA32419; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:45:58 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:45:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199706012145.RAA32419@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: giles@nemeton.com.au CC: dgy@rtd.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199705302355.JAA00230@topaz.nemeton.com.au> (message from Giles Lean on Sat, 31 May 1997 09:55:17 +1000) Subject: Re: uucp uid's From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> UUCP itself is a dinosaur. Yet, I see several places that use UUCP as >> their sole connection to the electronic world. Kinda tough to force >> a client/customer to do things *your* way when *he's* paying the >> bills! :> >Hey, there's lots of money in dinosaurs! Isn't there a movie or >something? :-) >UUCP has a little life in it yet, as it is easier to secure than >dialup IP and is handy for the rare occasion when reliable spooling >and data transfer is required over an intermittent connection. I agree. For a lot of tasks, uucp is considerably nicer than trying to deal with all sorts of PPP and POP and other protocols, particularly across a fairly static network of Unix boxes. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 14:54:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06708 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06702 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id RAA32452; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:54:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:54:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199706012154.RAA32452@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706010426.NAA11621@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:56:32 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> In fact, weren't you also the guy who was unlear on the precedence of >> = vs == ? If so, I think you _really_ need to go by a C book and >> do some brushing up. ;) >> I recommend Harbison & Steele. >I wonder if there would be any chance of shipping K&R 2ed in soft form >with the system? It's my favoured reference 8) Really? I find that the items which I frequently need to refer to are library calls, which aren't discussed in any great detail (where they are discussed at all). -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 14:55:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06748 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06741 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id RAA32461; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:55:22 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:55:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199706012155.RAA32461@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <10785.865140591@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I wonder if there would be any chance of shipping K&R 2ed in soft form >> with the system? It's my favoured reference 8) > >As much as I like the "old testament", I have to say that the "new >testament" (H&S) is simply a better book. More in-depth examples, >a lighter style, broader coverage. Erm. Just better. :-) > I thought that 2ed was NT? -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 16:35:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13586 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13581 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA16113; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:04:21 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706012334.JAA16113@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) In-Reply-To: <199706012154.RAA32452@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Jun 1, 97 05:54:20 pm" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:04:21 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck stands accused of saying: > >I wonder if there would be any chance of shipping K&R 2ed in soft form > >with the system? It's my favoured reference 8) > > Really? I find that the items which I frequently need to refer to are > library calls, which aren't discussed in any great detail (where they > are discussed at all). Library calls are necessarily fairly system-specific; that's what manpages are for. The most commonly observed problems here are conceptual problems with the syntax and usage of the basic language. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 1 18:09:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17284 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17278 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01610; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:07:42 -0700 (PDT) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Jun 1997 17:55:22 EDT." <199706012155.RAA32461@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 18:07:42 -0700 Message-ID: <1606.865213662@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I thought that 2ed was NT? What? I thought we were talking about C. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 14:46:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14503 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (unique.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14488 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by unique.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08519; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 07:45:24 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199706022145.HAA08519@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> To: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stock Offering (IPO) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Jun 1997 10:00:56 MST." <199706021700.KAA14777@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 07:45:22 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Allied Lodgic Corporation > > > LOGIC > > > 200,000 Shares Of Common Stock > > > PRICE $5.00 PER SHARE ~ > These are probably people who were suckered into buying a CDROM > from Cyberpromo or some other shady company. In my experience, 50%+ of spammers are in the exact same category. I've said it before, but it is the *providers* of the spammer service who need to be attacked, not (necessarily) the spammers themselves. They are outright crooks. If their customers would start suing these people for selling a defective product, then I'd cheer it all the more. They need to be put out of business. Regards, David From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 18:34:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26084 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lenlen.ntc.keio.ac.jp (mobile08.ntc.mita.keio.ac.jp [131.113.212.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26079 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by lenlen.ntc.keio.ac.jp (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27907; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:33:31 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:33:31 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199706030133.KAA27907@lenlen.ntc.keio.ac.jp> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Bestsellers of the week :-) in Japan From: hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.19PL2] 1996-01/26(Fri) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This list is this week's top 10 bestsellers of the computer book floor of Kinokuniya Shoten Shinjuku (one of the most famous bookstores in Japan). 1. "FreeBSD Tettei Nyuumon" (Complete Introduction of FreeBSD) 2. "Bill Gates Mirai wo Kataru" (Bill Gates' "The Road Ahead") :-p 3. "Dekiru Excel 95" (You can Excel 95) 4. "Dekiru Windows 95" (You can Windows 95) 5. "Dekiru Excel 97" (You can Excel 97) 6. "Game Goukai Shuushoku Dokuhon" (Handbook for finding work in game industry) 7. "Dekiru Word 95" (You Can Word 95) 8. "HTML & CGI Nyuumon" (Introduction to HTML and CGI) 9. "Zukai Windows 95" (Windows 95 Illustrated) 10. "Zukai Tsuusin Protocol ga Wakaru Hon" (Understanding Communication Protocols, illustrated) -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi [Network Technology Center, Keio University] hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp hosokawa@jp.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 18:55:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26922 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.onaustralia.com.au [139.134.5.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26912 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au by Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ia279508 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:56:43 +1100 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id LAA02028; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:17:09 +0930 (CST) From: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <199706030147.LAA02028@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Anecdote: Connecting to the Internet in Australia In-Reply-To: from Mattias Pantzare at "May 30, 97 02:12:03 pm" To: pantzer@ludd.luth.se (Mattias Pantzare) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:51:06 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mattias Pantzare writes: >>> FreeBSD (hub.freebsd.org) (ttyp4) >> >> Yup. No problems. If this thing also gave me ftp, I wouldn't even >> need to sign up for Telstra. What an enormous back door (and what a >> tiny front door). > > No problem, start ppp on the remote computer... Well, just for the fun of it, I did that. Unfortunately, they're not completely crazy. The address you get assigned isn't routed, so you can't get out of the local network. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 18:55:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26931 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.onaustralia.com.au [139.134.5.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26913 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au by Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ka279510 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:56:46 +1100 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id LAA02034; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:17:58 +0930 (CST) From: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <199706030147.LAA02034@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Intel Pentium II released In-Reply-To: <199705310253.UAA21379@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "May 30, 97 08:53:00 pm" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:56:42 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > Sean Eric Fagan writes: >> But this lets me get on a rant: I am sick of Intel right now. They have >> been worrying me for quite a while, as they have a monopoly on the computer >> market. (More than 85% of all processors in the world currently in use are >> Intel processors. That constitutes a monopoly by most economists >> definitions.) > > Well, maybe for "desktop" computers, but not the entire microprocessor > market. Until recently, the largest-selling 32 bit architecture was > still the M68K family, How do you define 'recently'? > which is used by the millions in embedded applications of all sorts. > I think the largest selling single processor is now the NEC VR4300, > clipping along at about a million units per *month.* It is used in > both the Nintendo 64 and the Sony Playstation if you wonder how it > achieved those volumes. I thought that the Nintendos use a MIPS chip. Is the VR4300 the same sort of thing as an R4400 variant? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 20:06:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA29715 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA29708 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA24128; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:05:49 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:05:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199706030305.VAA24128@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bestsellers of the week :-) in Japan In-Reply-To: <199706030133.KAA27907@lenlen.ntc.keio.ac.jp> References: <199706030133.KAA27907@lenlen.ntc.keio.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This list is this week's top 10 bestsellers of the computer book floor > of Kinokuniya Shoten Shinjuku (one of the most famous bookstores in > Japan). > > 1. "FreeBSD Tettei Nyuumon" (Complete Introduction of FreeBSD) Wow! Congratulations to you and the rest of the folks that put it together! Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 21:11:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02037 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02029 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA14071 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id XAA06150; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:57:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:57:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199706030357.XAA06150@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706012334.JAA16113@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:04:21 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> I wonder if there would be any chance of shipping K&R 2ed in soft form >>> with the system? It's my favoured reference 8) >> Really? I find that the items which I frequently need to refer to are >> library calls, which aren't discussed in any great detail (where they >> are discussed at all). > Library calls are necessarily fairly system-specific; that's what > manpages are for. The most commonly observed problems here are > conceptual problems with the syntax and usage of the basic language. System calls are necessarily system-specific. If I have the stdio interface different on two different OS's, then I'm going to be fairly peeved. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 21:11:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02067 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02057 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (root@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA14086 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id XAA06150; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:57:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:57:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199706030357.XAA06150@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706012334.JAA16113@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:04:21 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> I wonder if there would be any chance of shipping K&R 2ed in soft form >>> with the system? It's my favoured reference 8) >> Really? I find that the items which I frequently need to refer to are >> library calls, which aren't discussed in any great detail (where they >> are discussed at all). > Library calls are necessarily fairly system-specific; that's what > manpages are for. The most commonly observed problems here are > conceptual problems with the syntax and usage of the basic language. System calls are necessarily system-specific. If I have the stdio interface different on two different OS's, then I'm going to be fairly peeved. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 21:27:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02612 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02605 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA15041 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id AAA06212; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:13:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:13:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199706030413.AAA06212@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au CC: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706022145.HAA08519@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> (message from David Nugent on Tue, 03 Jun 1997 07:45:22 +1000) Subject: Re: Stock Offering (IPO) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> These are probably people who were suckered into buying a CDROM >> from Cyberpromo or some other shady company. >In my experience, 50%+ of spammers are in the exact same category. >I've said it before, but it is the *providers* of the spammer service >who need to be attacked, not (necessarily) the spammers themselves. >They are outright crooks. But what would be an effective way to attack the spammer providers? For the next five years, they are going to be able to find ignorant marketroids to buy their serivces, even if the entire Internet blocks their mail. Spamming them back is fuitile; that only gets the site blocked, and then other (more rational) complaints don't work. Mind you, presently the CyberBomber has easily blocked headers: Received: from relay4.ispam.net by churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) with ESMTP id DAA18949 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from --- CLOAKED! --- Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:13:44 -0400 (EDT) X-1: This email was sent by "Cyber-Bomber" ... Details at http://www.cyberpromo.com X-2: This server only relays mail from other sources. X-3: To report abuse, please send email to abuse@cyberpromo.com. X-4: Coming soon --> Master remove list implementation by I.E.M.M.C. Other spammers can be similarly blocked as a temporary measure. But I prefer to keep cyberpromo and other such things out of our world. Happy hacking, jelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 21:28:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02685 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02680 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA09408; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:27:27 -0700 (PDT) To: hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bestsellers of the week :-) in Japan In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Jun 1997 10:33:31 +0900." <199706030133.KAA27907@lenlen.ntc.keio.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 21:27:27 -0700 Message-ID: <9405.865312047@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This list is this week's top 10 bestsellers of the computer book floor > of Kinokuniya Shoten Shinjuku (one of the most famous bookstores in > Japan). > > 1. "FreeBSD Tettei Nyuumon" (Complete Introduction of FreeBSD) Awesome!! I wonder if we can get a translation of this into english, since it's obviously a great book (it even outsold Billy's book! I'm psyched! ;-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 21:31:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02837 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02832 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (root@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA15432 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id AAA06212; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:13:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:13:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199706030413.AAA06212@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au CC: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706022145.HAA08519@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> (message from David Nugent on Tue, 03 Jun 1997 07:45:22 +1000) Subject: Re: Stock Offering (IPO) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> These are probably people who were suckered into buying a CDROM >> from Cyberpromo or some other shady company. >In my experience, 50%+ of spammers are in the exact same category. >I've said it before, but it is the *providers* of the spammer service >who need to be attacked, not (necessarily) the spammers themselves. >They are outright crooks. But what would be an effective way to attack the spammer providers? For the next five years, they are going to be able to find ignorant marketroids to buy their serivces, even if the entire Internet blocks their mail. Spamming them back is fuitile; that only gets the site blocked, and then other (more rational) complaints don't work. Mind you, presently the CyberBomber has easily blocked headers: Received: from relay4.ispam.net by churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) with ESMTP id DAA18949 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from --- CLOAKED! --- Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:13:44 -0400 (EDT) X-1: This email was sent by "Cyber-Bomber" ... Details at http://www.cyberpromo.com X-2: This server only relays mail from other sources. X-3: To report abuse, please send email to abuse@cyberpromo.com. X-4: Coming soon --> Master remove list implementation by I.E.M.M.C. Other spammers can be similarly blocked as a temporary measure. But I prefer to keep cyberpromo and other such things out of our world. Happy hacking, jelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 21:36:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03083 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (root@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03077 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id XAA06162; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:59:54 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:59:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199706030359.XAA06162@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <1606.865213662@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I thought that 2ed was NT? > What? I thought we were talking about C. I thought that the 2nd edition of Kernighan and Ritchie's book, "The C Programming Language", discussed ANSI C (or at least it says "ANSI C" in big red letters on the cover), which is also known as New Testament C. In many Christian religious discussions, New Testament is frequently abbreviated NT. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 2 21:41:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03998 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03960 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id XAA06162; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:59:54 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:59:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199706030359.XAA06162@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <1606.865213662@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I thought that 2ed was NT? > What? I thought we were talking about C. I thought that the 2nd edition of Kernighan and Ritchie's book, "The C Programming Language", discussed ANSI C (or at least it says "ANSI C" in big red letters on the cover), which is also known as New Testament C. In many Christian religious discussions, New Testament is frequently abbreviated NT. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 03:42:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA21396 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 03:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA21390 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 03:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA24616; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:41:42 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:41:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199706031041.MAA24616@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp's message of Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:33:31 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Bestsellers of the week :-) in Japan References: <199706030133.KAA27907@lenlen.ntc.keio.ac.jp> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This list is this week's top 10 bestsellers of the computer book floor > of Kinokuniya Shoten Shinjuku (one of the most famous bookstores in > Japan). > > 1. "FreeBSD Tettei Nyuumon" (Complete Introduction of FreeBSD) *clapping* Great work! Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 06:37:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA28841 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28831; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 06:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00445; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:37:15 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199706031337.XAA00445@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Anecdote: Connecting to the Internet in Australia In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 30 May 1997 10:50:12 +0930." <199705300121.KAA01561@papillon.lemis.com> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 23:37:14 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, I don't like telcos any more than the next person, but this > is a really good price. So I went to the local Telstra shop to > ask for an application form. They told me that there was no such > thing: they'd sell me Internet software for $20, and I could just > sign up under "Windows" via an 800 number. I told them about the > stuff I had read on the web, and they reluctantly called somebody > who faxed them the form, which I filled out and they, with obvious > bad grace, faxed back again. Heh, this is the Telstra we all know and love. This exactly situation happens to me so often that I've come to expect it whenever I walk into a TBO. If it isn't something about a standard residential phone service I'm usually very surprised when someone on the desk actually knows what I'm talking about. I'm not surprised very often. For an arganisation (and I use that word advisedly) that is supposed to be servicing a communications industry, their internal communications and staff information system is *terrible*. > believe. Anyway, they won't connect until the end of the last > month--to quote a Telstra person, their internal organization > leaves something to be desired. >From the horse's mouth. Absolutely right, and I've seen this a few times from the inside also. Historically, I guess it isn't too surprising. Telstra ex-Telecom ex-PMG was evolved from a government department, after all. Internally the organisation suffers from the "empire building" disease, where possession of current information is a key strategy to achieving advancement, and is thus are held as a closely guarded secret. This is perhaps a little more cynical than it should be, but it's not far from the truth. > the most obnoxious mail IDs I've heard, something like > . When I suggested > that their mail gurus should put in a masquerade name in their > sendmail.cf to get rid of unpronouncablehostname (I didn't quite > phrase it that way :-), she told me that the problem was that they > were running Microsoft mail, and it wouldn't work. She also asked > me not to quote her, so obviously they're at least ashamed of it. Well, that's something. :-) Internally, Telstra have completely sold out to Microsoft and have made quite an investment (!!!) in MS products, with tens of thousands of pc's around Australia running a wide variety of versions of windows on Novell LANs. They're not likely to change that, and have had to make all sorts of amazing kludges to get a functioning mail system (I happened to be contracting for them when MS mail first went in as an 'upgrade' to cc-mail - this is under Win 3.11. What a fiasco! MS Mail's mail database certainly got a very thorough debugging with 15,000+ employee entries :-)). I guess they're apologetic about it because of its rate of failure, which is very often. From what I saw, the most common use of the mail system was to hand around pirated software between employees rather than for anything productive. They know about the problems and even grudgingly live with it, but it doesn't help them or anyone else. AFAIK, noone's doing much to rectify it either, other than hoping for better software from MS in the future. But, fwiw, most of their internet servers run on HPs and NCRs running some sort of UNIX (SVR4, I believe). They work ok only because most Telstra employees don't get anywhere near them. :-) The people who manageme them know what they're doing, but getting to actually contact these people is next to impossible. > Yup. No problems. If this thing also gave me ftp, I wouldn't even > need to sign up for Telstra. What an enormous back door (and what a > tiny front door). :-) > Unfortunately, I *do* need ftp, so I called up Telstra and asked them Hey, did you try to start a ppp session? I wouldn't be all that surprised it it worked! :-) > what was happening. It seems that their menu server is down (probably > runs on Microslop). Should be up later today. But it's probably > worth checking whether the back door remains when the server is > running. I can see they learned a lot about security from Microslop. Cheers, David David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 08:57:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05690 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA05683 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA16713; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:52:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199706031552.IAA16713@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Stock Offering (IPO) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:52:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199706030413.AAA06212@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Jun 3, 97 00:13:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But what would be an effective way to attack the spammer providers? > For the next five years, they are going to be able to find ignorant > marketroids to buy their serivces, even if the entire Internet blocks > their mail. Spamming them back is fuitile; that only gets the site > blocked, and then other (more rational) complaints don't work. Legally. Start by copyrighting your email address. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 10:18:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA10088 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA10081; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:18:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199706031718.KAA10081@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199706030359.XAA06162@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Jun 2, 97 11:59:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > >> I thought that 2ed was NT? > > What? I thought we were talking about C. > > I thought that the 2nd edition of Kernighan and Ritchie's book, "The C > Programming Language", discussed ANSI C (or at least it says "ANSI C" > in big red letters on the cover), which is also known as New > Testament C. In many Christian religious discussions, New Testament > is frequently abbreviated NT. hmm...guess that makes harbison and steele apocrypha? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 11:55:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16208 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA16203 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id LAA03695; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:55:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:55:03 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199706031855.LAA03695@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stock Offering (IPO) Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <199706031552.IAA16713.kithrup.freebsd.chat@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199706030413.AAA06212@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Jun 3, 97 00:13:34 am Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199706031552.IAA16713.kithrup.freebsd.chat@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry writes: >Legally. Start by copyrighting your email address. An email address cannot be copyrighted, due to being a single word or other short text. You can try to trademark it, but... you'd probably lose. Since you would have to go after everyone who ever sent you email, and anyone who ever distributed a posting by you, and everyone you ever sent email to, to tell them that it is a trademark, and to enforce that trademark. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 12:43:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18606 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18600; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA03056; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:43:19 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Jun 1997 10:18:44 PDT." <199706031718.KAA10081@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:43:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3052.865366999@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > hmm...guess that makes harbison and steele > apocrypha? Heh heh. I don't think it's quite intolerant enough. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 15:32:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA27338 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from matrix.42.org (sec@matrix.42.org [192.68.213.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA27277 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sec@localhost) by matrix.42.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA17892; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:31:38 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Path: sec From: sec@42.org (Stefan `Sec` Zehl) Newsgroups: muc.lists.freebsd.chat Subject: Re: Anecdote: Connecting to the Internet in Australia Date: 4 Jun 1997 00:31:37 +0200 Organization: Internet@home Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <199706030147.LAA02028@freebie.lemis.com> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.0-2 BETA UNIX) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199706030147.LAA02028@freebie.lemis.com>, grog@FreeBSD.ORG wrote: > > No problem, start ppp on the remote computer... > > Well, just for the fun of it, I did that. Unfortunately, they're not > completely crazy. The address you get assigned isn't routed, so you > can't get out of the local network. Hmm, i thought he meant you should try ppp via tcp to hub.freebsd.org, (logging in and starting pppd locally ? :) - if hub gives you an IP, then you can freely ftp from there :) CU, Sec -- Fuer die Raupe ist es das Ende der Welt, Fuer den Rest der Welt ist es ein Schmetterling Error 0: No error From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 18:46:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA09178 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09168; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA09879; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:15:24 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706040145.LAA09879@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) In-Reply-To: <3052.865366999@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 3, 97 12:43:19 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:15:24 +0930 (CST) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > hmm...guess that makes harbison and steele > > apocrypha? > > Heh heh. I don't think it's quite intolerant enough. :-) Perhaps it should be viewed as a parallel, rather than derivative, text like, say, the Koran? > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 21:53:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21427 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA21422 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA11760; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:22:46 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706040452.OAA11760@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-Reply-To: <199706040443.VAA02309@precipice.shockwave.com> from Paul Traina at "Jun 3, 97 09:43:05 pm" To: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:22:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Traina stands accused of saying: > > From: Michael Smith > Subject: Re: sgml formatting code > > As are many other 'value-add' components. The persistent suggestion that > we should strip the system bare in search of some sort of naked purity > is the deluded rabling of tunnel vision. > > Deluded boy here... putting stuff in base system, when it works perfectly > well as a port, only makes it: > > (a) harder to keep things up to date and maintined > (b) encourages people to not send fixes and changes back to authors > (c) bloats the system with stuff many users may not care about > (d) inflicts your choices and values on folks who don't agree > with you > > Now, who has tunnel vision? Anyone who thinks that saying to a potential software customer : "but before you can use our software you have to install A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, X, Y and Z." is helpful. And so forth. "works perfectly well as a port" is fine from the POV of an application, not so good when you are talking about primitive tools, with the current installation model. If you _want_ a system on which it is _painful_ to do anything, there are plenty of examples already around. If, OTOH, you consider that there is value in providing an integrated, highly functional system, then ripping components out is just not the way to go. Sometime down the track, when it becomes possible to layer the installation process so that masochists and minimalists can be satisfied without annoying the crap out of the rest of us, this argument will probably become more subtle. Until then, bear in mind that what you want is already there; you're only suffering some (minor) bloat. In contrast, you are insisting that I sacrifice the basic usefulness of the system to me. Do you wonder at my defence? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 21:59:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21834 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (ppp-206-170-32-215.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA21813 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA03147; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706040458.VAA03147@precipice.shockwave.com> To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Jun 1997 14:22:46 +0930." <199706040452.OAA11760@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:58:54 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Smith Subject: Re: sgml formatting code Paul Traina stands accused of saying: > > From: Michael Smith > Subject: Re: sgml formatting code > > As are many other 'value-add' components. The persistent suggestion that > we should strip the system bare in search of some sort of naked purity > is the deluded rabling of tunnel vision. > > Deluded boy here... putting stuff in base system, when it works perfectly > well as a port, only makes it: > > (a) harder to keep things up to date and maintined > (b) encourages people to not send fixes and changes back to authors > (c) bloats the system with stuff many users may not care about > (d) inflicts your choices and values on folks who don't agree > with you > > Now, who has tunnel vision? Anyone who thinks that saying to a potential software customer : "but before you can use our software you have to install A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, X, Y and Z." is helpful. And so forth. "works perfectly well as a port" is fine from the POV of an application, not so good when you are talking about primitive tools, with the current installation model. That's a job for son of sysinstall. Debian Linux has been doing the right thing in this regard for years, so don't give me a line about this being the end of FreeBSD as we know it. If you _want_ a system on which it is _painful_ to do anything, there are plenty of examples already around. If, OTOH, you consider that there is value in providing an integrated, highly functional system, then ripping components out is just not the way to go. Sometime down the track, when it becomes possible to layer the installation process so that masochists and minimalists can be satisfied without annoying the crap out of the rest of us, this argument will probably become more subtle. Until then, bear in mind that what you want is already there; you're only suffering some (minor) bloat. In contrast, you are insisting that I sacrifice the basic usefulness of the system to me. Do you wonder at my defence? No, I scoff at it. :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 22:04:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA22130 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA22107 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA11867; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:34:10 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706040504.OAA11867@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-Reply-To: <199706040458.VAA03147@precipice.shockwave.com> from Paul Traina at "Jun 3, 97 09:58:54 pm" To: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:34:09 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Traina stands accused of saying: > > is helpful. And so forth. "works perfectly well as a port" is fine > from the POV of an application, not so good when you are talking > about primitive tools, with the current installation model. > > That's a job for son of sysinstall. Debian Linux has been doing the right > thing in this regard for years, so don't give me a line about this being the > end of FreeBSD as we know it. In the current context, pruning the system to the bone would drive ISVs like ourselves to another platform. Right now, our users are extremely happy with the "comfort level" that FreeBSD systems provide them; it's often a significant selling point when talking them into accepting a unix-centric solution. The alternative is not _currently_ palatable; I agree that we need to help make SoSy part of the solution. > Do you wonder at my defence? > > No, I scoff at it. :-) Ah, but you would 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 22:25:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA24213 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (ppp-206-170-32-215.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA24204 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA03281; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706040524.WAA03281@precipice.shockwave.com> To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Jun 1997 14:34:09 +0930." <199706040504.OAA11867@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:24:22 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Smith Subject: Re: sgml formatting code The alternative is not _currently_ palatable; I agree that we need to help make SoSy part of the solution. I actually don't disagree with your goals, I disagree with your analysis. :-) I'd rather not be saddled with ancient festery versions of perl and tcl, which is what happens when they get bundled with the system. Yes, I can install a perl5 port, but then I'm never quite sure which perl I'm running, especially when the bloody port gets installed with a funky name so that it doesn't conflict with the bitrot freebsd has inflicted on me. Not to mention that I need to groff on one machine out of 50. It's the machine that I build freebsd releases on. The rest of the time, groff doesn't need to exist. I also resent that I've got several hundered K of perl interpreter laying about on it's lazy bum because of about 8k of perl code that's in the system that doesn't even exist under BSD and would be better off being rewritten in C in the first place. So, any way I shake it, I get screwed by having stuff in the base system. If I run a devlopment machine, I've got old code getting in my way, if it's the machine in the bathroom that runs the SNMP controlled bum-wiper, I'm still stuck with perl and tcl and gcc and all this other crud, just in case I feel like writing some code by waving the sponge back and forth. FreeBSD could be so much more than it is today if we could get over the idea that "unbundled" means "unfeatured." It's not like the days when DEC decided to unbundle little things like the macro assembler, dreknet, and the bliss compiler, so you'd have to go out and buy 5000 licenses just to keep your campus running -- all the code is still there if you want it, but if things are unbundled, you've got a choice. Monolithic systems are Stalinist constructions... of course, having just last week seen "Children of the Revolution", I now have a deeper understanding of Australians, Joe. Regards, Paul p.s. all of the insults are only meant in fun -- I'm just having too much fun writing this to be polite :-) p.p.s. for the peanut gallery, "Children of the Revolution" is a relatively famous (and damn well done) commedy about a woman in the Austrialian Communist party who meets the hero of the Soviet Union, Josef Stalin. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 23:21:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA28307 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28287 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00349; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706040621.XAA00349@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Paul Traina cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:24:22 PDT." <199706040524.WAA03281@precipice.shockwave.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 23:21:26 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think that we have to start thinking about the idea of "packages" and their dependencies . For instance, we could have an ISP package, work station package, etc... At some point we have to decide what is a base level system , if we want to avoid installation bloat. Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 23:31:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA28853 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28847 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA05575; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:30:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Jun 1997 14:34:09 +0930." <199706040504.OAA11867@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 23:30:41 -0700 Message-ID: <5570.865405841@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In the current context, pruning the system to the bone would drive > ISVs like ourselves to another platform. Right now, our users are > extremely happy with the "comfort level" that FreeBSD systems provide > them; it's often a significant selling point when talking them into > accepting a unix-centric solution. > > The alternative is not _currently_ palatable; I agree that we need to > help make SoSy part of the solution. Boys, boys, you're BOTH right, OK? :-) FreeBSD as it currently stands is too hard to layer components onto and upgrade - what we have with pkgs/ports is a nice _start_ but it's still insufficient for reasons I could start enumerating now and still not be done by morning, so a little bloat is the price we must currently pay to have a reasonably functional FreeBSD for all. I'm also firmly on the side of making something functional over making it small given that I've suffered with lousy out-of-box Solaris/AIX/HPUX and Digital UNIX installations for more than enough years out of my life, thank you. That said, my ideal is to make the packaging/distribution tools so robust that you can simply select what "kind" of FreeBSD system you want at any time, at initial install or anytime afterwards, and have the system carefully keep track of everything by set. If you want to initially install a bare-bones "embedded system" class FreeBSD, later deciding that you wanted the full doc suite and then even later thinking "naw, I liked it better small", you should be able to do all of that with literally a click of a mousebutton (or a keystroke for you serial console purists :-), all the messy details handled transparently. OK? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 23:31:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA28876 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28871 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA12886; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:01:33 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706040631.QAA12886@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-Reply-To: <199706040621.XAA00349@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jun 3, 97 11:21:26 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:01:32 +0930 (CST) Cc: pst@shockwave.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > I think that we have to start thinking about the idea of "packages" and > their dependencies . For instance, we could have an ISP package, > work station package, etc... At some point we have to decide what > is a base level system , if we want to avoid installation bloat. This has been hashed over quite a number of times. The conclusion that we've come to the last few times is that the base system needs to be further broken into some more distribution groups, and tools developed to manage these. It's at about this point that the discussion stops, because : - doing the division is a fair amount of work. - developing the tools is a lot more work. and whilst I and others are keen to do this, nobody has yet been able to put the time up to do it in. I'm still trying to catch up on earlier commitments (PAM, Romeo+Juliet, etc) > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 23:38:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA29421 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (ppp-206-170-32-215.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA29414 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04656; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706040638.XAA04656@precipice.shockwave.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Jun 1997 23:30:41 PDT." <5570.865405841@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 23:38:00 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gee Dad, I was just starting to get warmed up, and now you come in talking sense and promising roses. Boo hiss. Oh well, guess I'll have to go off and break some code instead. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 3 23:46:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA29897 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA29891 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA05676; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Traina cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Jun 1997 23:38:00 PDT." <199706040638.XAA04656@precipice.shockwave.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 23:46:02 -0700 Message-ID: <5672.865406762@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Gee Dad, I was just starting to get warmed up, and now you come in talking > sense and promising roses. Most roses have thorns - don't worry, you'll have plenty of opportunity to beat me up later. ;-) Of course, I rather regret damping out this thread before we got to see pictures of that SNMP controlled bum-wiping machine. That sounds like something which could potentially be a bigger seller than anything any of us could ever do in the mainstream computer field. Hell, six months of rigorous marketing and we'd put Billy G. on sticks. We could buy his house, his wife and his children on the interest from our bank accounts alone. Jordan P.S. Speaking of schemes which have almost obscenely huge money-making potential, I'll give you guys this tip only once, and for free: Teledildonics. It's the future of electronic entertainment. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 4 00:08:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00503 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00498 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA13197; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:38:04 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706040708.QAA13197@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-Reply-To: <5672.865406762@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 3, 97 11:46:02 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:38:04 +0930 (CST) Cc: pst@shockwave.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > P.S. Speaking of schemes which have almost obscenely huge money-making > potential, I'll give you guys this tip only once, and for free: > Teledildonics. It's the future of electronic entertainment. Only the tip? I never suspected you as a catholic 8) TBH, I don't think either of us could woo Hefner, or some similar industry image, into the pre-capital marketing that would be needed. Truly, a field rich with dangerous puns. I'll leave you with the tale of a friend of mine that used to name his systems after the objects of his unrequited lust. Yes, for the obvious reasons. 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 4 01:53:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA07727 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA07721 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA06229; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 01:53:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty), pst@shockwave.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: sgml formatting code In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Jun 1997 16:01:32 +0930." <199706040631.QAA12886@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 01:53:24 -0700 Message-ID: <6225.865414404@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's at about this point that the discussion stops, because : > > - doing the division is a fair amount of work. > - developing the tools is a lot more work. > > and whilst I and others are keen to do this, nobody has yet been able > to put the time up to do it in. I'm still trying to catch up on > earlier commitments (PAM, Romeo+Juliet, etc) I'm going to do it. I know I've said it for years, but I really am going to do it this time. :-) I can't face another mainstream release (3.0) with the current release tools, I simply can't. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 4 03:17:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA14592 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.vis.net.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA14568 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25896; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:20:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:16:30 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: "M. L. Dodson" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mount_tar or something... In-Reply-To: <199706031937.OAA09598@beowulf.utmb.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, M. L. Dodson wrote: > > > > > > [Windows user stupid question...] > > Q.I can't find a mount_tar command, I wonder why ! > > A.because it would be silly and no doubt have a 64MB limit. > > > > I think I've seen this question go past before, but more along > > the lines of why can't I read my "stackered/compressed windows drive?" > > > > Well, I don't use windows unless I really have to, so that's not a > > problem, all I'd like is to have a compressed ufs or something. > > > > I can happily tar up all my man pages, the handbook, even virtually all my > > executables. (which is probably a stupid idea!) However I _can't_ have a > > filesystem which is just plain compressed. > > > > Is anyone working on this, has it been done, have I missed something? > > If not are there any plans to do this, and if not why not ? > > > > Thanks, > > Steve Roome. (idiot?!) > > Not idiot, but maybe not familiar with the objectives of people > who develop *nix operating systems or develop on *nix operating systems. > I dare say that almost of the FreeBSD core team would consider a > compressed file system a toy, at best. And I would agree with them. Odd, I'm not sure how I feel about this =) I've been using FreeBSD and/or *nix for some ten years and while I agree that it's just plain strange to want things like compressed file systems in any unix. There are times when I think it would be useful. Although what's odd is that I've only just thought recently that it would be useful. I'd love to be able to have my entire ftp source for the latest stable FreeBSD on a compressed filesystem. I'd put it on tape, but that takes a tape drive up for ages, and it doesn't have any easy parallel access. > > Unix has traditionally been oriented toward performance in all its parts > and toward the parts being exceptionally robust. Developing compressed > file systems does not move toward either of these goals. I'm not sure, people have always been compressing data to some extent, and I don't think Unix has always actually moved in this direction as you say, although it would be much better if it had. Some of the things Linux has done, for example, asynchronous filesystems.. giving performance at the cost of reliability don't fit your trend. Well, I'm not to keen on Linux for that reason either, but the Linux's out there account for a lot of "Unix Machines". > > IMHO, compressed file systems come close to the greatest evil ever > inflicted by Microsoft on their consumers (and that is saying a lot). Compressed file systems when used in the way microsoft would intend you to, i.e. compressing even your c:\windows directory and all the apps you use most often, is unthinkable morosity. However having data which you must store, on non-removable media such as large files for ftp (like the source for FreeBSD) compressed doesn't detract from your goals of performance and robustness. It does however offer me the chance to save something in the region of 250M or more (my FreeBSD source for ftp takes up 580M). I see your point though, and I'd still like to see some support for compressed file systems. > > Bud Dodson > > -- > M. L. Dodson bdodson@scms.utmb.edu > 409-772-2178 FAX: 409-772-1790 > Steve Roome. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 4 08:29:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA03763 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bloke.statsci.com (bloke.statsci.com [206.63.206.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03758 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bloke.statsci.com [206.63.206.184] with smtp by bloke.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0wZHzt-000QdNC; Wed, 4 Jun 97 08:29 PDT Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: giles@nemeton.com.au, dgy@rtd.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uucp uid's References: <199706012145.RAA32419@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Jun 1997 17:45:58 -0400." <199706012145.RAA32419@diazepam.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:29:12 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > I agree. For a lot of tasks, uucp is considerably nicer than trying > to deal with all sorts of PPP and POP and other protocols, I'm curious...is there an easy way to have a sendmail daemon not bother to try delivery on certain items in its queue? I have things setup at work to UUCP-queue email destined for my home system, and part of the reason for that is to avoid having the emails stuck in the queue when my home system was offline and the sendmail queue run hanging while waiting for a network timeout. Come to think of it...how would a home system collect email out of an SMTP daemon anyways? For an intermittent connection that's initiated from one direction only (i.e. my home system initiates the connection to work), it seems like SMTP is backwards for mail going from work to home. SMTP seems to be really meant for continuous network connections (or nearly so). Besides...we didn't have dialup PPP access on these modems until recently. I used to call directly to the UUCP system until it died. Then I put the GNU/ Taylor UUCP on a different system, use 'SLiRP' on the modem serving system(s) to give me my "pseudo-PPP" connection (aka a real PPP connection with NAT :-)), "user PPP" on my home FreeBSD system to auto-dial as needed and use UUCP over TCP to gather send email (and queued file transfers) traffic to/from home. I have to say that it seems to work quite well. IS there any standard software that I could use in place of UUCP to allow easy file transfer and email requests to be queued and processed at connect time? I suppose one could funnel everything through a POP mailbox drop, then write some custom delivery scripts on my home system, but that seems like more work and more error prone to me. Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 4 17:33:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17223 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.onaustralia.com.au [139.134.5.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17200 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au by Teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ha299137 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:15:26 +1100 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id IAA06131; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:47:58 +0930 (CST) From: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <199706042317.IAA06131@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Anecdote: Connecting to the Internet in Australia In-Reply-To: <199706031337.XAA00445@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> from David Nugent at "Jun 3, 97 11:37:14 pm" To: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:47:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent writes: >> Well, I don't like telcos any more than the next person, but this >> is a really good price. So I went to the local Telstra shop to >> ask for an application form. They told me that there was no such >> thing: they'd sell me Internet software for $20, and I could just >> sign up under "Windows" via an 800 number. I told them about the >> stuff I had read on the web, and they reluctantly called somebody >> who faxed them the form, which I filled out and they, with obvious >> bad grace, faxed back again. > > Heh, this is the Telstra we all know and love. > > This exactly situation happens to me so often that I've come to expect > it whenever I walk into a TBO. If it isn't something about a standard > residential phone service I'm usually very surprised when someone > on the desk actually knows what I'm talking about. I'm not surprised > very often. You might be if you go and ask about residential telephone services. I was recently: they didn't seem to know what I was talking about ("what, you mean a telephone with a *cable*?"). Anyway, I finally got it, but only after they sent me into a booth to listen to 15 minutes of hold music and Telstra ads before I got a human. > For an arganisation (and I use that word advisedly) that is supposed to > be servicing a communications industry, their internal communications > and staff information system is *terrible*. Well, I wouldn't want to praise them, but so far they're way out ahead of Deutsche Telekom. But what telco isn't? >> believe. Anyway, they won't connect until the end of the last >> month--to quote a Telstra person, their internal organization >> leaves something to be desired. > > From the horse's mouth. Absolutely right, and I've seen this a few times > from the inside also. > > Historically, I guess it isn't too surprising. Telstra ex-Telecom > ex-PMG was evolved from a government department, after all. Internally > the organisation suffers from the "empire building" disease, where > possession of current information is a key strategy to achieving > advancement, and is thus are held as a closely guarded secret. This > is perhaps a little more cynical than it should be, but it's not far > from the truth. Yes, this is a general Telco failing. >> the most obnoxious mail IDs I've heard, something like >> . When I suggested >> that their mail gurus should put in a masquerade name in their >> sendmail.cf to get rid of unpronouncablehostname (I didn't quite >> phrase it that way :-), she told me that the problem was that they >> were running Microsoft mail, and it wouldn't work. She also asked >> me not to quote her, so obviously they're at least ashamed of it. > > Well, that's something. :-) Internally, Telstra have completely sold > out to Microsoft and have made quite an investment (!!!) in MS > products, with tens of thousands of pc's around Australia running > a wide variety of versions of windows on Novell LANs. They're not > likely to change that, and have had to make all sorts of amazing > kludges to get a functioning mail system (I happened to be contracting > for them when MS mail first went in as an 'upgrade' to cc-mail - this > is under Win 3.11. What a fiasco! MS Mail's mail database certainly > got a very thorough debugging with 15,000+ employee entries :-)). Interesting. From what I've seen of cc:[FM]ail, even MS Mail must have been an improvement. >> Yup. No problems. If this thing also gave me ftp, I wouldn't even >> need to sign up for Telstra. What an enormous back door (and what a >> tiny front door). > >> -) > > >> Unfortunately, I *do* need ftp, so I called up Telstra and asked them > > Hey, did you try to start a ppp session? I wouldn't be all that surprised > it it worked! :-) Yup, it worked, once I worked out that I needed to be active (the ppp man page I have doesn't mention the fact. Thanks to Mike Smith for pointing out this one). Unfortunately, the addresses aren't routed. >> what was happening. It seems that their menu server is down (probably >> runs on Microslop). Should be up later today. But it's probably >> worth checking whether the back door remains when the server is >> running. > > I can see they learned a lot about security from Microslop. Well, it turns out that the bloke was wrong. This *is* the standard interface. Seems that Windows 95% PPP knows how to handle this and start up PPP correctly. It took another call to the hot line to discover that the signup had to be done with Netscape, and that I had to start ppp first--exactly what you mentioned above. The only problem is that, in contrast to telnet, it's not routed. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 5 09:47:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23691 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23668 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA02615; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:47:08 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199706051647.CAA02615@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: scott@statsci.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: uucp uid's In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:29:12 MST." X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 02:47:07 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > For an intermittent connection that's initiated from one > direction only (i.e. my home system initiates the connection > to work), it seems like SMTP is backwards for mail going from > work to home. SMTP seems to be really meant for continuous > network connections (or nearly so). Yep, exactly. ETRN support in sendmail greases the wheels a bit for the idiots who've gone out and purchased, say, MS Exchange for their dial-up system without knowing all the ins and outs of the situation, but to have sendmail "stuck" while servicing the queue is an added inconvenience we could all live without. POP is just plain inadequate. Yes, I know about the kludges, but well, they aren't called "kludges" for nothing. Header rewriting is a (somtimes) necessary evil, and having to stick the envelope into the headers simply because it goes throught a needlehole that strips the headers is a nasty hack. So, UUCP does it, but that is also messy to setup and administer, especially so from the novice point of view. Very few will actually support it these days too, in spite of it solving most of the problems you've outlined. > over TCP to gather send email (and queued file transfers) traffic > to/from home. I have to say that it seems to work quite well. Yes, it does. Half o my own uucp connections (just under a dozen, but gradually dropping off) are over tcp. > IS there any standard software that I could use in place of UUCP > to allow easy file transfer and email requests to be queued and > processed at connect time? We need a new protocol, imho. Not unlike smtp, or maybe even a variation of smtp that is receiver driven. > I suppose one could funnel everything through a POP mailbox drop, > then write some custom delivery scripts on my home system, but > that seems like more work and more error prone to me. A nasty, evil hack. The idea is to get the delivery envelope into headers, in a form recognised by the remote system. There are no standards here, and therein lies the evilness. Once nice feature of ZMailer which I (ab)used often was to split recipients into different queues with different retry parameters. Periodic callers with smtp would get redirected to a "slow" queue and it wouldn't interfere with the rest of mail delivery. Nifty. It has a similar function to ETRN (XTRN) that does much the same thing, plus its scheduler is threaded. Eventually this will get to the stage where I'll take the plunge and just reinstall the damn thing - I miss a lot of its features. Unfortunately more recent versions have become less stable, and not having time to really get my hands dirty with it, I've procrastinated for months. I guess it's not a case of hating sendmail enough yet... or is that again? :-)). Regards, David David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 5 14:15:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07357 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.statsci.com (main.statsci.com [206.63.206.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07350 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plum.statsci.com [206.63.206.43] with smtp by main.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0wZjsj-000ZMZC; Thu, 5 Jun 97 14:15 PDT Received: from plum.statsci.com [206.63.206.43] with smtp by plum.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0wZjsj-0007QoC; Thu, 5 Jun 97 14:15 PDT Message-Id: To: David Nugent cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: uucp uid's References: <199706051647.CAA02615@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jun 1997 02:47:07 +1000." <199706051647.CAA02615@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <26728.865545340.1@plum.statsci.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 14:15:41 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent wrote: > We need a new protocol, imho. Not unlike smtp, or maybe even a > variation of smtp that is receiver driven. Seems you could add some commands to SMTP to say HELO and SEND me my mail? > Once nice feature of ZMailer which I (ab)used often was to split > recipients into different queues with different retry parameters. > Periodic callers with smtp would get redirected to a "slow" queue > and it wouldn't interfere with the rest of mail delivery. Nifty. You could do that with sendmail (or smail or whatever, too) - just route email to a "mailer" that just drops it in a different queue directory by waving sendmail over it again with command line switches to specify a different .cf file. Then you could cron-run the queue on that other sendmail queue on a different schedule. Seems like it ought to work (or I think I've seen others suggesting similar schemes in the past). Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 08:41:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA25388 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25265 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00297; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:36:26 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33984982.3723@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 10:31:46 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" CC: Jim Dixon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NT vs UNIX References: <199706060625.XAA26875@MindBender.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > Hit "next" now if you aren't interested in an NT thread... > ( I moved this to "chat".... ) > >Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > >> While it's true that NT will probably require more memory to get the > >> system up and running, and while it's also true that you will probably > >> have to buy software (although I'm sure Netscape and others would be > >> as happy to sell you a news server as Microsoft would), it's complete > >> and utter bull to assert that NT will "fall over" under a full news > >> feed. It show's that you simply have no clue what you're talking > >> about. In fact, I would bet that you have no experience whatsoever > >> doing anything demanding with NT. > > >Well...I imagine if you use a Compaq Proliant with 512M and lot's of > >SCSI disks and so on, even DOS will resist the load. In the real world, > >though, the performance of any UNIX will easily beat NT: > > http://www.lanquest.com/reports/lotus_notes/sco85a.htm > >I don't know NetBSD, but FreeBSD outperforms SCO (especially at high > >loads). > > Hmmm... where do I begin... > > The test was run on a previous major release of NT (3.5 vs. 4.0). > Major performance improvements have been made in that period of time. > Microsoft hasn't exactly been standing still on the performance front. > > They test on 4-processor machines with software that they admit only > supports two processors on NT. > I think it's fair..only SCO has such a closed mentality to keep marketing that old product with a different compiler. Hope I'm not talking like Terry either, but Unixware is a much better product. The NT version is old, but M$ has been selling vaporware from some years now, and many people still use this version: in the minds of the common user bringing in the W95 GUI is associated with unstability. > They use an older version of Lotus Notes, which at that point of time > was more of a Unix app recompiled to run on NT than a server product > that was written to work comfortably and natively with the way NT > works. The 2-processor limit is just one example why (hint: the > threading and processor affinity should be totally transparent if the > software was written correctly for NT in the first place). > This is a limitation of NT itself: while the UNIX sources are available for a price, NT's source code is one the best kept secrets. More than secret, they do whatever the want with it and don't tell anything to the major software developers (Lotus Notes) that could beat M$ products. It's fair to keep those limitations accounted for in a test. > Of course, this plays back into my assertion that Exchange kicks > Notes' ass. But I understand the value of using a common application > on both platforms. However, I think it was quite convenient for the > results of this report that Notes of that vintage just wasn't very > well written for NT (there are lots of other examples why, but I won't > belabor the point here). > Remember that there's no way to make this type of tests with Exchange. IMHO, this is the problem with the "abridge and extend" policy of Mini$oft; they only extend if they own the API's. I'm sure after you did your part someone in M$ replaced some API's here and there until they were sure Exchange kicked out Notes. To be fair we would have to see a version for UNIX. > You need to understand these types of studies are pretty much decided > before they are written. They are usually done entirely for the > purpose of showing to prospective clients. You can find another study > just as slanted that will show an area where NT totally kicks butt. > Either way, they're just corporate marketing. All the big companies > do it. > I agree that all tests can be slanted in some way or another, but the company that did this test is very serious. I haven't seen much tests around that were favorable to NT, would have to dig deeper in M$ web site, but the performance issue is dead around UNIX being faster but NT getting nearer and nearer. > > What makes the free BSDs so efficient is because they hold true to the > spirit of the original Unix much more closely than their commercial > counterparts. An OS written by and for the people who use it. An OS > written by hackers for hackers. A beautiful, clean, elegant, simple, > logically well-designed OS, unencumbered by marketing departments or > user-feedback studies. It doesn't try to be every thing for every > body. And, it expects you to accomodate it from time to time, not the > other way around. You gotta love an OS that makes no appologies. :-) > > I've been labled an "NT-enthusiast". Think of me more as a devil's > advocate. I'm just as much a BSD enthusiast as an NT enthusiast. And > if someone in an NT forum said something stupid about FreeBSD or > NetBSD, I would point out the errors just as candidly (and have done > so many times in the past). > > I simply think it's dangerous to go around gloating about something > based on a falsehood (only FreeBSD can support big news servers 'cause > NT would just fall right over). > > And even though I try to be candid, I about NT, Unix, and the BSDs, if > you say something stupid about Exchange Server I'll kick your ass, > cause that's my baby, and I firmly believe it's the "most powerful > messaging platform on the planet". :-) > > But to put this thing to rest: yes, FreeBSD and/or NetBSD running INN > still make about the best news server you can get for an ISP or any > other Unix-savvy site. The software is mature, and very well > understood. The BSDs are very efficient and resource-friendly, and of > course, they're free. > > However, there are other NNTP packages out there that are very capable > of handling a full feed. Exchange Server 5.0 is one of them, and it > does it pretty damn well for the very first release of an NNTP server > (i. e. the previous version had no NNTP connectivity). Balancing the > fact that it may not be quite as fast as Free/NetBSD + INN on a > well-tuned box, it is infinitely easier to configure and maintain. In > addition to Exchange, Netscape and Lotus would also be happy to sell > you news servers that aren't INN, and that run on NT. Of course, they > all cost real money. > Of course the great advantage, probably the only advantage, of NT is it's ease of use. I used Mac boxes before MS 3.0 was available and even then I firmly believed MS Windows was a winner. Now I find a conceptual difficulty buying M$ products..(in fact I don't buy them :-) ). "Don't buy DR-DOS, we will soon release MS-DOS 6.0 that will offer lot's of new features that will become standard, besides DR-DOS won't run win 3.1" "Don't buy OS2, we will release our 32-bit OS *VERY* soon and it will be very cool". M$ is still selling vaporware, the so-called improvements over UNIX are not evident. Many people are simply tied already to M$, they won't study any option that doesn't use NT. One of my previous employers ORDERED me to uninstall any UNIX box around and use exclusively NT. All my UNIX boxes survived; there were no official licenses for NT, and there isn't a version for IBM's Power processors. The same guy suggested we should remove all passwords from our boxes. Of course the day after I went away M$ found out we were using OS2 and made an additional discount on W95 licenses. My FBSD "development" box was erased with NT...when they want to go back to FreeBSD (they are already tired of licensing restrictions), they will have to pay a fee if the want to see FBSD reinstalled :). Just be honest with yourself and break the chains that tie you to Bill and his evil ways. Pedro. > Geeze... I'm getting almost as windy as Terry Lambert... > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net > --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 11:20:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03051 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03046 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <18155(4)>; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:19:42 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177489>; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:19:31 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Think Small. (The 1.44M Web Challenge) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:19:25 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <97Jun6.111931pdt.177489@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone know of a tiny windowing system? We could use lynx in a terminal window as the browser (cheating, I know...) ------- Forwarded Message From: danh@qnx.com (Dan Hildebrand) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system Subject: The 1.44M Web Challenge Date: 5 Jun 1997 14:51:47 -0400 Organization: QNX Software Systems Message-ID: <5n71s3$b9f@qnx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.qnx.com In the interests of laying out a friendly little challenge, can a Linux system be configured to put a web browser, a web server, the OS, TCP/IP and a windowing system on a single 1.44 Mbyte floppy disk? Impossible? QNX Software Systems Ltd. announces the QNX Demo Disk (downloadable from http://www.qnx.com/iat/). This single 1.44 Mbyte floppy disk contains: 1. Voyager Web Browser (Full HTML 3.2, frames, tables, etc.) 2. Voyager Embedded Web Server 3. The QNX Realtime Operating System 4. TCP/IP (with PPP including CHAP/PAP support) 5. Photon microGUI Windowing System 6. A "remote control" device to simulate a TV set top box 7. An Internet Phone Dialer 8. A Graphical File Browser 9. A Graphical Text Editor 10. A Vector Graphics Animation 11. Over 180 Kbytes of HTML and image content With this floppy disk and a desktop PC, you can browse the web or turn that PC into a web server accessible to other computers on the Internet. To download a copy, visit the http://www.qnx.com/iat/ website. To run the demodisk, you'll need a PC with a 386 or better, 6 Mbytes of RAM minimum, a mouse, VGA or better video and, optionally, a modem. A floppy drive is required, but the hard drive is not. :-) -- Dan Hildebrand (danh@qnx.com) QNX Software Systems, Ltd. http://www.qnx.com/~danh 175 Terence Matthews phone: +1 (613) 591-0931 Kanata, Ontario, Canada fax: +1 (613) 591-3579 K2M 1W8 ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 11:33:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03569 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03406; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem03.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.33]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA00503; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:25:22 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3398711D.699C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 13:20:45 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Molnar CC: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" , Jim Dixon , freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re:UNIX vs NT References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk UNIX rules and NT sucks, it's even worse than that non-UNIX thing...Linux. BUT... this discussion is now on the chat list, so please keep isp out :-). And now back to the theme... Yeah, OS2 is a very cool product and has always been ages ahead of M$, but their marketing and technical support sucks :(. Pedro. Stefan Molnar wrote: > > > And even though I try to be candid, I about NT, Unix, and the BSDs, if > > you say something stupid about Exchange Server I'll kick your ass, > > cause that's my baby, and I firmly believe it's the "most powerful > > messaging platform on the planet". :-) > > Just for my wondering what is the bigest Exchange network have you seen? > I have seen a Notes setup that is the bigest I have ever seen, it was > being run by Arthur Anderson/Anderson Consulting. When I was using it, > I got databases, emails, etc. from half way around the world (some of the > info I needed came from the UK) within a sec. An if I remember correctly > they ran it on top of OS/2 for the server element, and they only needed > two for the entire East Bay. I am not taking sides in this, but just as a > normal person seeing threw the waters, that was an impressive setup. > > Stefan > > "...Alll things are good, esp. an axe to a troubled server." > -Said while on a caffeine high From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 11:58:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04860 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rush.aero.org (rush.aero.org [130.221.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04846 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by rush.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10564; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by anpiel.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15704; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706061848.LAA15704@anpiel.aero.org> To: Bill Fenner cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Think Small. (The 1.44M Web Challenge) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jun 1997 11:19:25 PDT." <97Jun6.111931pdt.177489@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 11:48:50 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I had my nose shoved at the QNX demo on a laptop around this place yesterday. It is extremely impressive. The process sizes involved are truly tiny. QNX specializes in doing most of what Berkeley UNIX does in about 1/10 the code size, it seems. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 12:23:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06030 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marlin.exis.net (root@marlin.exis.net [205.252.72.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06025 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sailfish.exis.net (sailfish.exis.net [205.252.72.104]) by marlin.exis.net (8.8.4/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22481; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:07:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:05:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Molnar To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" , Jim Dixon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re:UNIX vs NT In-Reply-To: <3398711D.699C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And now back to the theme... > Yeah, OS2 is a very cool product and has always been ages ahead of M$, > but their marketing and technical support sucks :(. The marketing and tech does kinda have something less than to be desired. I think of it this way, the majority of ATM machines use OS/2. I like it. But that is coming from a guy that has a OS/2 Warp Server with SMP doing an NFS mount to a FBSDbox. Stefan "...Alll things are good, esp. an axe to a troubled server." -Said while on a caffeine high From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 12:24:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06090 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wrasse.csv.warwick.ac.uk (csubl@wrasse.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.148.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06080 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr M P Searle Message-Id: <20998.199706061923@wrasse.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Received: by wrasse.csv.warwick.ac.uk id UAA20998; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 20:23:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Think Small. (The 1.44M Web Challenge) In-Reply-To: <97Jun6.111931pdt.177489@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from Bill Fenner at "Jun 6, 97 11:19:25 am" To: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 20:23:27 +0100 (BST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Anyone know of a tiny windowing system? We could use lynx in a > terminal window as the browser (cheating, I know...) MGR? IIRC it's only about 200K, but there's hardly any software and it only does black/white. > > ------- Forwarded Message > > From: danh@qnx.com (Dan Hildebrand) > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system > Subject: The 1.44M Web Challenge > Date: 5 Jun 1997 14:51:47 -0400 > Organization: QNX Software Systems > Message-ID: <5n71s3$b9f@qnx.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.qnx.com > > In the interests of laying out a friendly little challenge, can a > Linux system be configured to put a web browser, a web server, > the OS, TCP/IP and a windowing system on a single 1.44 Mbyte > floppy disk? > > Impossible? > > QNX Software Systems Ltd. announces the QNX Demo Disk > (downloadable from http://www.qnx.com/iat/). This single 1.44 > Mbyte floppy disk contains: > > 1. Voyager Web Browser (Full HTML 3.2, frames, tables, etc.) > 2. Voyager Embedded Web Server > 3. The QNX Realtime Operating System > 4. TCP/IP (with PPP including CHAP/PAP support) > 5. Photon microGUI Windowing System > 6. A "remote control" device to simulate a TV set top box > 7. An Internet Phone Dialer > 8. A Graphical File Browser > 9. A Graphical Text Editor > 10. A Vector Graphics Animation > 11. Over 180 Kbytes of HTML and image content > > With this floppy disk and a desktop PC, you can browse the web or > turn that PC into a web server accessible to other computers on > the Internet. > > To download a copy, visit the http://www.qnx.com/iat/ website. > To run the demodisk, you'll need a PC with a 386 or better, 6 > Mbytes of RAM minimum, a mouse, VGA or better video and, > optionally, a modem. > > A floppy drive is required, but the hard drive is not. :-) > -- > Dan Hildebrand (danh@qnx.com) QNX Software Systems, Ltd. > http://www.qnx.com/~danh 175 Terence Matthews > phone: +1 (613) 591-0931 Kanata, Ontario, Canada > fax: +1 (613) 591-3579 K2M 1W8 > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 14:20:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12907 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12853 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem02.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.32]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA00645; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 16:16:02 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3398991D.5C11@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 16:11:25 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Molnar CC: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" , Jim Dixon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX vs NT References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stefan Molnar wrote: > > > And now back to the theme... > > Yeah, OS2 is a very cool product and has always been ages ahead of M$, > > but their marketing and technical support sucks :(. > > The marketing and tech does kinda have something less than to be desired. U tell me, this city has nearly 6 million people trapped in it, and there's only one person in IBM supporting OS2. > > I think of it this way, the majority of ATM machines use OS/2. I like > it. But that is coming from a guy that has a OS/2 Warp Server with SMP > doing an NFS mount to a FBSDbox. > ATM? You mean Automatic Teller Machines...we have Async. Transfer Mode and we don't have even one OS2 box there, to be honest not even an NT box ! I have OS2 Warp 3.0 on a nice box: I reinstalled win3.1 after a conflict between the video and audio (Compaq loves M$ :-( ). Don't you wish fbsd supported HPFS? ;-) Pedro. > Stefan > > "...Alll things are good, esp. an axe to a troubled server." > -Said while on a caffeine high > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 16:14:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18286 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 16:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18275 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 16:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id TAA01198; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:13:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:13:52 -0400 Message-Id: <199706062313.TAA01198@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: scott@statsci.com CC: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Scott Blachowicz on Thu, 05 Jun 1997 14:15:41 -0700) Subject: Re: uucp uid's From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> We need a new protocol, imho. Not unlike smtp, or maybe even a >> variation of smtp that is receiver driven. >Seems you could add some commands to SMTP to say HELO and SEND me my mail? You could. You'd pretty well have POP when you were through. What's the point in augmenting SMTP for a SEND extension? Protocols have their purposes for a reason. SMTP is designed to send mail; leave it there. If you want to receive mail, you can design a different protocol, or use a protocol that's been designed and implemented already such as POP. That way, other systems that need to send mail only don't need to mess around changing their protocol to meet the needs of extensions added for an entirely different purpose. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 18:03:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22280 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (unique.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA22271 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by unique.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA14613; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:01:31 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199706070101.LAA14613@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cc: scott@statsci.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uucp uid's In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jun 1997 19:13:52 -0400." <199706062313.TAA01198@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 11:01:30 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> We need a new protocol, imho. Not unlike smtp, or maybe even a >>> variation of smtp that is receiver driven. >> >>Seems you could add some commands to SMTP to say HELO and SEND me my mail? > >You could. You'd pretty well have POP when you were through. No you would not. And I *strongly* suggest not using POP in this situation. This is a kludge at best. POP loses the envelope, and even if you have the delivery agent save them somewhere - usually headers, since POP provides no other place which consitutes a namespace pollution to start with - there are no standard headers which can be *relied on* to contain them. POP is a mailbox delivery program. It has no business delivering mail to a *site*. Extending POP is an option, extending SMTP is another. Or inventing something new similar to either as you also suggest is yet another, but it is abundantly clear that something else is needed for delivery of mail to sites via occasional dialup connections. POP isn't even in the same league here and was designed for entirely different purposes than delivering mail to multiple users at a site during a single session. The fundamental difference is that mail is considered to be "delivered" once mail is passed off successfully to a local mail delivery agent by sendmail. In addition to the delivery envelope there are a number of other concerns that a pop-based solution does not address, such as DSN. Regards, David David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 18:07:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22382 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA22376 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA01839; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:06:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:06:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199706070106.VAA01839@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au CC: scott@statsci.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706070101.LAA14613@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> (message from David Nugent on Sat, 07 Jun 1997 11:01:30 +1000) Subject: Re: uucp uid's From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>> We need a new protocol, imho. Not unlike smtp, or maybe even a >>>> variation of smtp that is receiver driven. >>>Seems you could add some commands to SMTP to say HELO and SEND me my mail? >>You could. You'd pretty well have POP when you were through. >POP is a mailbox delivery program. It has no business delivering >mail to a *site*. Extending POP is an option, extending SMTP is >another. Or inventing something new similar to either as you >also suggest is yet another, but it is abundantly clear that >something else is needed for delivery of mail to sites via >occasional dialup connections. I apologize; I didn't properly understand that the discussion was about site-based mail delivery. You are correct; POP is unsuitable for these purposes. But extending SMTP makes even less sense, IMHO. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 21:26:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA28332 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.statsci.com (main.statsci.com [206.63.206.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA28327 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plum.statsci.com [206.63.206.43] with smtp by main.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0waD52-000ZMZC; Fri, 6 Jun 97 21:26 PDT Received: from plum.statsci.com [206.63.206.43] with smtp by plum.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0waD51-0007QoC; Fri, 6 Jun 97 21:26 PDT Message-Id: To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uucp uid's References: <199706062313.TAA01198@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jun 1997 19:13:52 -0400." <199706062313.TAA01198@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <7861.865657579.1@plum.statsci.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 21:26:19 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > What's the point in augmenting SMTP for a SEND extension? Protocols > have their purposes for a reason. SMTP is designed to send mail; > leave it there. If you want to receive mail, you can design a > different protocol, or use a protocol that's been designed and > implemented already such as POP. Depends on your viewpoint...I'm just trying to think of a way for a remote system to tell an SMTP daemon that the coast is clear and available for it to send the mail (rather than forcing it to have to endure network timeouts or some such). Also, POP is for an individual user, not system-to-system (as my email from work to home is - my wife doesn't have an account on our work systems which are effectively just acting as an MX forwarder for home). > That way, other systems that need to send mail only don't need to mess > around changing their protocol to meet the needs of extensions added for an > entirely different purpose. True...just trolling around for ideas...I'm just fine with using UUCP which seems to be designed for my purposes and does the job just fine. Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 21:38:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA28854 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28847 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id AAA03147; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:38:14 -0400 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:38:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199706070438.AAA03147@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: scott@statsci.com CC: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Scott Blachowicz on Fri, 06 Jun 1997 21:26:19 -0700) Subject: Re: uucp uid's From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> What's the point in augmenting SMTP for a SEND extension? Protocols >> have their purposes for a reason. SMTP is designed to send mail; >> leave it there. If you want to receive mail, you can design a >> different protocol, or use a protocol that's been designed and >> implemented already such as POP. >Depends on your viewpoint...I'm just trying to think of a way for a remote >system to tell an SMTP daemon that the coast is clear and available for it to >send the mail (rather than forcing it to have to endure network timeouts or >some such). Oh, well, if that's all you're talking about, there already is one. It's the RFC821 TURN protocol, although I don't think that sendmail implements it. I also vaguely remember an ETRN command, but don't recall much about it. >Also, POP is for an individual user, not system-to-system (as my email from >work to home is - my wife doesn't have an account on our work systems which >are effectively just acting as an MX forwarder for home). My apologies. I hadn't realized that we were discussing site-to-site stuff. >> That way, other systems that need to send mail only don't need to mess >> around changing their protocol to meet the needs of extensions added for an >> entirely different purpose. >True...just trolling around for ideas...I'm just fine with using UUCP which >seems to be designed for my purposes and does the job just fine. The only disadvantage is that it isn't transparent. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 21:38:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA28899 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28826; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA11450; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199706070338.VAA11450@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) In-Reply-To: <199706031718.KAA10081@hub.freebsd.org> References: <199706030359.XAA06162@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <199706031718.KAA10081@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > hmm...guess that makes harbison and steele > apocrypha? Dead-C scrolls? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 22:00:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA29845 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29840 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA28385 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:00:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: EVENT:You can attend the FTC Junk Email workshop online, June 12, 1997! (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Some of you may find this of interest-- Annelise ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 17:27:24 -0400 From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" Reply-To: vtw-announce@vtw.org To: vtw-announce@vtw.org Subject: EVENT:You can attend the FTC Junk Email workshop online, June 12, 1997! ****************************************************************************** * * * VTW-ANNOUNCE * * * * The following message is sent to you through vtw-announce, an announcement.* * only list to which you are only added to at your request. To unsubscribe, * * send email to majordomo@vtw.org with the words "unsubscribe vtw-announce" * * in the body of the message. Unsubscribe requests sent back to shabbir will * * not be effective at removing you from the list. * * * ****************************************************************************** ========================================================================= _ _ __| | ___ _ __ ___ ___ ___ _ __ __ _ ___ _ _ _ __ ___| |_ / _` |/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \ / __| '__/ _` |/ __| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| | (_| | __/ | | | | | (_) | (__| | | (_| | (__| |_| |_| | | | __/ |_ \__,_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/ \___|_| \__,_|\___|\__, (_)_| |_|\___|\__| |___/ Government Without Walls _________________________________________________________________________ Update No.10 http://www.democracy.net/ June 6 1997 _________________________________________________________________________ Table of Contents - Join the Federal Trade Commission for a discussion of Junk Email - Background on the Junk Email Issue - How to participate in the Online Workshop - About democracy.net ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION FOR A DISCUSSION OF JUNK EMAIL Concerned about the amount of "junk" email you receive? On Thursday June 12 the Federal Trade Commission will hold a forum on unsolicited commercial email as part of a 3 day public workshop on Internet Privacy issues. The FTC junk email forum will be cybercast live at democracy.net. You can listen to the proceedings via RealAudio, view live pictures, submit your thoughts and comments to the FTC, and discuss the issue with other Internet users in a simultaneous online chat room. DETAILS ON THE EVENT: Date: Thursday, June 12, 1997 Time: 8:45 am - 12:30 pm Eastern Time Place: http://www.democracy.net You will need to have RealAudio and a telnet application installed on your computer. Visit http://www.democracy.net/software/ to download the software for FREE. ____________________________________________________________________________ BACKGROUND ON THE JUNK EMAIL ISSUE Junk email is one of the most discussed Internet issues today, with emphasis in the press and two pieces of legislation introduced in Congress to address the issue. To learn more about junk email, we suggest that you read the filings of various people to the Federal Trade Commission, available in the "Background" section of the democracy.net page devoted to this event. ____________________________________________________________________________ INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PARTICIPATE * Federal Trade Commission Junk Email Workshop * DATE: Thursday June 12, 1997 TIME: 8:45 am Eastern (5:45 am Pacific) LOCATION: http://www.democracy.net In advance of the workshop, please visit http://www.democracy.net and make sure you have the RealAudio and telnet software necessary to participate. _____________________________________________________________________________ ABOUT DEMOCRACY.NET The democracy.net is a joint project of the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) and the Voters Telecommunications Watch (VTW) to explore ways of enhancing citizen participation in the democratic process via the Internet. To this end, democracy.net hosts live, interactive cybercasts of Congressional Hearings and online town hall meetings with key policy makers. democracy.net is made possible through the generous support of WebActive, Public Access Networks, the Democracy Network, and DIGEX Internet. More information about the project and its sponsors can be found at http://www.democracy.net/about/ To receive democracy.net announcements automatically, please visit our signup form at http://www.democracy.net/ or send mail to majordomo@democracy.net with "subscribe events" in the body of the message. _____________________________________________________________________________ End update no.10 06/06/1997 ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 22:10:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00340 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00311 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA10648; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:39:52 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706070509.OAA10648@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Think Small. (The 1.44M Web Challenge) In-Reply-To: <97Jun6.111931pdt.177489@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from Bill Fenner at "Jun 6, 97 11:19:25 am" To: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:39:52 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Fenner stands accused of saying: > Anyone know of a tiny windowing system? We could use lynx in a > terminal window as the browser (cheating, I know...) You could use MGR, but you'd have to spend a lot of time developing a browser for it. QNX have a huge advantage in that you will note that they have left lots of their kernel functionality off the disk 8) This is a typical "microkernel NYAH" situation 8)  -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 22:19:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00588 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00582 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01025; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:19:46 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33990A7A.1211@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 00:15:06 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" CC: Jim Dixon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix vs NT References: <199706060625.XAA26875@MindBender.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > I simply think it's dangerous to go around gloating about something > based on a falsehood (only FreeBSD can support big news servers 'cause > NT would just fall right over). > Only FreeBSD can support big search engines 'cause NT would just fall right over. Just look what came out of M$ website, after I searched a word: ___________________ Error "Unspecified error " (0x80004005) encountered while processing the query "VFAT". Query Syntax Help ___________________ This was http://www.microsoft.com/search/default.asp , I hve to admit it's a very stable bug :-). > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net > --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 22:51:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA01681 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01676 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01054; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:51:38 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <339911F1.350A@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 00:46:57 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: Bill Fenner , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Think Small. (The 1.44M Web Challenge) References: <199706070509.OAA10648@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (I arrived late to this list) Michael Smith wrote: > > Bill Fenner stands accused of saying: > > Anyone know of a tiny windowing system? We could use lynx in a > > terminal window as the browser (cheating, I know...) > > You could use MGR, but you'd have to spend a lot of time developing a > browser for it. QNX have a huge advantage in that you will note that they > have left lots of their kernel functionality off the disk 8) > Not really that tiny (I hope) but try W96: http://www.modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~puujalka/w1r2.html You didn't expect colors did you ? Pedro. > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 23:30:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA02623 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02616 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id XAA17578; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01055; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706070628.XAA01055@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Stefan Molnar cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Jim Dixon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 06 Jun 97 06:42:11 -0400. Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 23:27:44 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Note that this has moved to freebsd-chat... >> ... Exchange... >> cause that's my baby, and I firmly believe it's the "most powerful >> messaging platform on the planet". :-) >Just for my wondering what is the bigest Exchange network have you seen? >I have seen a Notes setup that is the bigest I have ever seen, it was >being run by Arthur Anderson/Anderson Consulting. When I was using it, >I got databases, emails, etc. from half way around the world (some of the >info I needed came from the UK) within a sec. An if I remember correctly >they ran it on top of OS/2 for the server element, and they only needed >two for the entire East Bay. I am not taking sides in this, but just as a >normal person seeing threw the waters, that was an impressive setup. Some of the largest Fortune 500 companies. The Unix issue is sort of a heated one, especially because I love Unix as much as the rest of you. So, I try to keep the NT posts few and far between. However, this is not a Lotus list, so I feel I can feel free to not hold back. Just in case it hasn't been obvious, for those of you who don't really know me, I am a Software Design Engineer at Microsoft. I work in the Exchange Product Unit. I'm currently working on a new piece of Exchange that will once again kick Notes' ass. Sorry that I can't tell you more about it. :-) The reason I don't post from a Microsoft account is because I choose to do BSD in my spare time, and it has no affiliation at all with my day-time work. I have been running BSD OS' since 386BSD 0.0. I struggled through the Bill Jolitz era like all the other original free BSDers. I ran the patch kit that Nate and Terry and others put together. And I was one of the first people to run NetBSD 0.8, practically the day after it came out. I struggled through the birth of the shared library implementation now taken for granted. I struggled once again through the 4.3 to 4.4 migration. I have installed and administered a few FreeBSD machines as well, but the majority of my time and effort has been spent on NetBSD. Back to Notes. There isn't a lot to leave to speculation here. We do a lot of perf testing in our own labs against various products. Our driving mantras when pushing Exchange out the door for the first time were Reliability and Performance. We celebrated the day we got the Exchange client down to the "minimum theoretical number of RPCs" for a SendMessage. Number of RPCs are just one of the release criteria used when developing additional pieces of Exchange. There are a few products that beat us in certain areas, but in general, Notes isn't one of those products. Notes' only advantage are a few obscure feature gaps that Exchange hasn't (yet) filled. Remember that Exchange is only a year old, and we wanted to build the best damn messaging platform first. We absolutely would not compromise on that. Now that we've done that we'll go fill all the workflow and groupware gaps. One key point kind of shows the attitudes at work here. Lotus won't let you release _any_ benchmark figures for Notes, without their explicit permission. With good reason. On the other hand, Microsoft ships load simulator clients with Exchange that simulate various loads of real mail clients, so you can generate your own tests, to find out how your servers will work on your network. They believe so strongly in the performance of Exchange Server that they _give_ you the stress testing tools with the server. Also with good reason. One large Exchange account in particular exemplifies what I am talking about. Boeing tried Notes for awhile, and gave up. One of its problems was that Notes simply couldn't handle their 300,000 user directory. It simply was too big. Exchange swallowed it without missing a beat. Exchange is barely more than a year old, and there are already several large sites publicly affiliated with Exchange that are larger than the _largest_ publicly affiliated notes site. Boeing isn't the only site in the six digits. I can't give you an exhaustive list because I don't work closely with the marketing people, so I don't know which names I can say publicly, and which ones I can't. Of course, Microsoft is no small customer of Exchange itself. With over 30,000 mailboxes, and over two million messages per day. Remember also that these aren't 30,000 college students who might log in once or twice a day to check mail, these are all active mailboxes of people in a high tech company who actually use email all day long for real work, and who are generally all connected and active at the same time. There is some very extremely cutting edge database technology used in the Exchange Server store. It does complete crash recovery, live backups without locking out any active functionality, on-line automatic garbage collection, automatic replication, over high-speed networks *or* low-speed connection-based intermittent lines, plus a whole bunch of other cool things I can't think of right now. :-) In fact, one key competitor (Netscape -- now who was talking about a company that uses Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt as its primary weapon?), is reduced to picking the _size_ of individual stores as the primary weakness of Exchange. They can't find much else, so they tell people Exchange can "only" support 400 users per server, because the current size of an individual store is 16GB. Netscape pulled that number of thin air somewhere (16GB == 400 users). Of course, the real limit is much higher, if you go by user load. And, the next version of Exchange has already betad the terabyte store, which should be shipping shortly. So much for Netscape's biggest nit. OK, so enough for the Exchange commercial. Suffice it to say that even if you don't take me seriously as saying it is _the_ most powerful messaging platform on the planet, it truly is _one_of_ the most powerful. Now I'm getting _more_ verbose than Terry. This is scary. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 23:46:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA03167 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asa1.asan.com (asa1.asan.com [206.20.111.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA03162 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp38.asan.com (ppp38.asan.com [206.20.111.38]) by asa1.asan.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ha274203 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 02:45:58 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970607024530.01119a64@asan.com> X-Sender: bugtraq@asan.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 02:45:30 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: WaiKin Wong Subject: Re: NT vs UNIX In-Reply-To: <33984982.3723@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> References: <199706060625.XAA26875@MindBender.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:31 AM 6/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >> But to put this thing to rest: yes, FreeBSD and/or NetBSD running INN >> still make about the best news server you can get for an ISP or any >> other Unix-savvy site. The software is mature, and very well >> understood. The BSDs are very efficient and resource-friendly, and of >> course, they're free. >> >> However, there are other NNTP packages out there that are very capable >> of handling a full feed. Exchange Server 5.0 is one of them, and it >> does it pretty damn well for the very first release of an NNTP server >> (i. e. the previous version had no NNTP connectivity). Balancing the >> fact that it may not be quite as fast as Free/NetBSD + INN on a >> well-tuned box, it is infinitely easier to configure and maintain. In >> addition to Exchange, Netscape and Lotus would also be happy to sell >> you news servers that aren't INN, and that run on NT. Of course, they >> all cost real money. I don't now about beleaguring this topic anymore than it should. But, Microsoft sells a MCIS suite for those interested in running a news server on NT... for all you guys that need to stick to NT maybe 'cause your boss says so. The licensing and pricing sucks and Microsoft would basically only sell to Network Operators not commercial businesses. Sorry, commercial businesses must stick with Exchange News server. But, yes this product can at least scale up to handle full news feeds without keeling over... Apparently, it's less of an OS problem than having the right hardware, software combo... Still... how can you do this when FreeBSD is free??? From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 23:50:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA03324 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03316 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA09173; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:32:08 +0800 (WST) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:32:08 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Michael Smith cc: Bill Fenner , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Think Small. (The 1.44M Web Challenge) In-Reply-To: <199706070509.OAA10648@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Bill Fenner stands accused of saying: > > Anyone know of a tiny windowing system? We could use lynx in a > > terminal window as the browser (cheating, I know...) > Looked at VSTA's windowing system? From memory its CGA-only, but then it wouldn't (shouldn't) be TOO hard to adopt to EGA/VGA. :-) > This is a typical "microkernel NYAH" situation 8) :) VSTA is just .. minimalist. In every sense of the word too. -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 6 23:52:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA03406 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id XAA18058; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01119; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706070650.XAA01119@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: Jim Dixon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NT vs UNIX In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 06 Jun 97 10:31:46 -0700. <33984982.3723@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 23:50:00 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> They use an older version of Lotus Notes, which at that point of time >> was more of a Unix app recompiled to run on NT than a server product >> that was written to work comfortably and natively with the way NT >> works. The 2-processor limit is just one example why (hint: the >> threading and processor affinity should be totally transparent if the >> software was written correctly for NT in the first place). >This is a limitation of NT itself: while the UNIX sources are available >for a price, NT's source code is one the best kept secrets. More than >secret, they do whatever the want with it and don't tell anything to the >major software developers (Lotus Notes) that could beat M$ products. >It's fair to keep those limitations accounted for in a test. I think you missed my point. I was simply talking about an app that is written well for NT. An app that is written to be intelligently multi-threaded, use the Win32 synchronization primitives, etc. Until Notes 4, Lotus didn't try very hard to make the NT version of Notes work well with NT. However, the Exchange doesn't use any "private" APIs. Everything we use is documented in MSDN (the Microsoft Developer's Network library). In fact, in spite of the fact that I work _inside_ Microsoft, my primary reference is still the publicly available MSDN library. The only time I got to private specs or documentation is when we're working with something that hasn't released yet. >Remember that there's no way to make this type of tests with Exchange. >IMHO, this is the problem with the "abridge and extend" policy of >Mini$oft; they only extend if they own the API's. >I'm sure after you did your part someone in M$ replaced some API's here >and there until they were sure Exchange kicked out Notes. To be fair we >would have to see a version for UNIX. I hope you'll take this in the best possible way. :-) That is absurd alarmist paranoid bullshit. Microsoft developers simply don't have the time to pull stunts like that. If an external API was changed, it was done so for purely technical reasons, of because of a bigger picture (an ISV designed it for their product, but someone at MS saw a way it could be used more generally for several products). In fact, I had that happen to me. My boss took something I designed, and totally mutated into something else. What I wrote was usable as an internal library for a couple pieces of our product. What he turned it into was a publicly consumable COM object, that anybody could script to. >I agree that all tests can be slanted in some way or another, but the >company that did this test is very serious. I haven't seen much tests >around that were favorable to NT, would have to dig deeper in M$ web >site, but the performance issue is dead around UNIX being faster but NT >getting nearer and nearer. There is a lot of very sincere marketing out there that contradicts each other. :-) [...] >then I firmly believed MS Windows was a winner. Now I find a conceptual >difficulty buying M$ products..(in fact I don't buy them :-) ). >"Don't buy DR-DOS, we will soon release MS-DOS 6.0 that will offer lot's >of new features that will become standard, besides DR-DOS won't run win >3.1" >"Don't buy OS2, we will release our 32-bit OS *VERY* soon and it will be >very cool". Sure, MS has pissed some people off in the past. I believe it's a much more mature company than it was five or ten years ago. But they're still very aggressive, and occasionally they may still pull a stunt that pisses some people off. That's big business, I guess. However, if there is any number one company using FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) as its primary weapon right now, it's Netscape. They want desparately to compete with Microsoft in the back-end server business, and are willing to spread as many rumors as possible until they can eventually come out with server products as good as BackOffice (and as good as Notes, to site another competitor). A Lotus CEO even publicly roasted Netscape in an open letter to a trade rag recently, because they are being so obnoxious. And if it's simply big companies you hate, remember that IBM has nearly ten times as many employees as Microsoft. :-) >One of my previous employers ORDERED me to uninstall any UNIX box around >and use exclusively NT. All my UNIX boxes survived; there were no >official licenses for NT, and there isn't a version for IBM's Power >processors. The same guy suggested we should remove all passwords from >our boxes. Of course the day after I went away M$ found out we were >using OS2 and made an additional discount on W95 licenses. >My FBSD "development" box was erased with NT...when they want to go back >to FreeBSD (they are already tired of licensing restrictions), they will >have to pay a fee if the want to see FBSD reinstalled :). Sucks to be them... :-) >Just be honest with yourself and break the chains that tie you to Bill >and his evil ways. 'Fraid those would be my paycheck and my stock options. Don't think I'm willing to give those up just because some people object to Microsoft marketing tactics. At least I don't work for Netscape. :-) However, have comfort in the fact that I still love and fully support the free BSDs. In fact, you'd be surprised to find out just how many FreeBSD and NetBSD (and yes, even some Linux) enthusiasts there are in the Exchange group. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 00:13:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04027 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04022 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA11320; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:39:06 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706070709.QAA11320@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes In-Reply-To: <199706070628.XAA01055@MindBender.serv.net> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at "Jun 6, 97 11:27:44 pm" To: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:39:06 +0930 (CST) Cc: stefan@exis.net, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jdd@vbc.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com stands accused of saying: > > OK, so enough for the Exchange commercial. Suffice it to say that > even if you don't take me seriously as saying it is _the_ most > powerful messaging platform on the planet, it truly is _one_of_ the > most powerful. So where can we grab the source from to validate your claims, check for security holes, or make variances between what you think we want and we want for ourselves? Exchange may be the most wonderful (or profitable?) thing you've ever worked on, but from my POV it loses on every count. No source, no portability, not useful. FWIW, we microwaved a whole set of MS BO disks last night, to christen the new microwave in a friend's office. He's planning on putting them in the same drawer as the Asia-Pacific NT developers' conference Tshirt that he wore while stripping and rebuilding the engine in his car this summer. Until MS are willing to play the right game, small ISVs like us are just going to keep ignoring them. I suspect that they really don't care, but I certainly feel no need to be polite about them in return. 8) *grumble* > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 00:16:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04125 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04120 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id AAA18564; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA01256; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706070715.AAA01256@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: Jim Dixon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix vs NT In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 07 Jun 97 00:15:06 -0700. <33990A7A.1211@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 00:14:57 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I simply think it's dangerous to go around gloating about something >> based on a falsehood (only FreeBSD can support big news servers 'cause >> NT would just fall right over). >Only FreeBSD can support big search engines 'cause NT would just fall >right over. >Just look what came out of M$ website, after I searched a word: >___________________ >Error "Unspecified error " (0x80004005) encountered while processing the >query "VFAT". [...] >This was http://www.microsoft.com/search/default.asp , I hve to admit >it's a very stable bug :-). Oh, please. :-) The web and web-based access is flakey all over. You must not surf a lot. I've gotten errors a lot stranger than that from just about every kind of host out there. OK, so you were able to make a web server give you an error for a short period of time. :-) You'll have to try harder. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 00:25:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04389 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04384 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id AAA18753; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA01292; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706070723.AAA01292@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: stefan@exis.net, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jdd@vbc.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 07 Jun 97 16:39:06 +0930. <199706070709.QAA11320@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 00:23:19 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com stands accused of saying: >> OK, so enough for the Exchange commercial. Suffice it to say that >> even if you don't take me seriously as saying it is _the_ most >> powerful messaging platform on the planet, it truly is _one_of_ the >> most powerful. >So where can we grab the source from to validate your claims, check >for security holes, or make variances between what you think we want >and we want for ourselves? Uh yeah, right. Look, I'm all for the free Unix thing myself, but there really is a market for commercial software and enterprise level support. Try to get the source code to Digital Unix. Or HP/UX. :-) >FWIW, we microwaved a whole set of MS BO disks last night, to christen >the new microwave in a friend's office. He's planning on putting them >in the same drawer as the Asia-Pacific NT developers' conference Tshirt >that he wore while stripping and rebuilding the engine in his car >this summer. > >Until MS are willing to play the right game, small ISVs like us are >just going to keep ignoring them. I suspect that they really don't >care, but I certainly feel no need to be polite about them in >return. 8) Hey, believe it or not, I'm with you. Currently, FreeBSD and/or NetBSD are about the best OS' available for ISPs. They have so many advantages for that particular market. On the other hand, the places where Exchange shines, are medium sized companies to mega corporations, where commercial support is not only preferred, but often required. And don't believe MS is going to ignore the ISP market forever. On the other hand, what they develop will most likely be significantly cheaper than commercial Unix solutions, but will still not be free. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 01:18:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA05778 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA05773 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA11671; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:47:30 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706070817.RAA11671@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes In-Reply-To: <199706070723.AAA01292@MindBender.serv.net> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at "Jun 7, 97 00:23:19 am" To: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:47:30 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com stands accused of saying: > > >So where can we grab the source from to validate your claims, check > >for security holes, or make variances between what you think we want > >and we want for ourselves? > > Uh yeah, right. Look, I'm all for the free Unix thing myself, but > there really is a market for commercial software and enterprise level > support. Try to get the source code to Digital Unix. Or HP/UX. :-) Yup. If I go, cap in hand (and a large cheque as well), such things can be had. Or at the very least, I can look to a wide range of functionally equivalent alternatives, whose behaviour, security, etc. can be studied and modified to suit the requirements of a particular situation. But Exchange is, and seeks to be, something other. Microsoft have made no bones about crushing any possible alternatives (you have yourself alluded to this), yet refusing any chance of peer review. This isn't unique to Exchange; it is standard MS policy, along with any number of reprehensible development policies. It's perhaps unfair to restrict this complaint to MS; many other companies practice it, and I think no differently of them. > >Until MS are willing to play the right game, small ISVs like us are > >just going to keep ignoring them. I suspect that they really don't > >care, but I certainly feel no need to be polite about them in > >return. 8) > > Hey, believe it or not, I'm with you. Currently, FreeBSD and/or > NetBSD are about the best OS' available for ISPs. They have so many > advantages for that particular market. Please reread what I wrote. In particular ISV != ISP. The people that pay most of my way develop unique data acquisition and control software for a wide variety of research applications. We work wherever possible with "free" software, because bitter experience has shown that the only support that you can truly count on is your own, and to a considerable but somewhat lesser degree, that of other concerned individuals. The few "non-free" software components we work with are continual thorns in our collective backside. Policies such as those that MS espouse are anathamatical to the modes of operation that an organisation such as ours must follow in order to survive. Effectively, we survive by our wits, not large injections of capital, ripe for the picking by way of "support contracts", "developer programs", "training conferences" and the like. In fact, as you may have observed, we have a healthy contempt for that whole attitude. And consequently, we have yet to sink completely under, and in fact continue to come up with neat, innovative solutions to interesting problems faster, cheaper and more reliably than any of our competitors. Ok, so I'm in sales mode too 8) > On the other hand, the places where Exchange shines, are medium sized > companies to mega corporations, where commercial support is not only > preferred, but often required. *snort* You will note that, in most cases, "commercial support" comes from parasitic organisations normally formed by ex-inhouse support staff who now make considerably more working for themselves, solving the same problems over and again. Having worked in various situations in and around these organisations (my first contract job was installing a Lantastic network for the Adelaide DMR office), it is intersting to note that "talking to the vendor" appears to be semantically similar to "waving a dead chicken". ie., support such as you claim is fundamentally a joke at anything less than the "mega corporation" level, at which point it's completely irrelevant, as the deal is closed with luch tours, new golf clubs, quiet transactions of large numbers of Frequent Flier points, new cars, houses, "customer loyalty bonuses", or any of hundreds of point-of-sale tactics. Don't laugh; I'll show you a very nice set of NCR carbon-fibre drivers if you come around. "Requirements" for "commercial" support generally boil down to : - I don't want difficult items on my risk-analysis list. - I don't want my boss on my ass for putting difficult things on her risk-analysis list. - I don't want to miss out on the perks and freebies. - "Nobody ever got fired for buying XXXX" (that's the "if it fails we can always sue them" attitude). Basically, "support" from major vendors, from almost any perspective, is oxymoronic. Squeezing the competition out of a market just makes support cheaper, as you can offer less, and worse, without losing your customers. You may well argue that small "vertical" market suppliers are irrelevant; it's a common mistake. Ask yourself how much industrial automation is run off "shrinkwrapped" software? How many of the basic utilities could operate without specialised control tools? How much in the way of new research is dependant on a few postdocs with a tiny grant and some technical specialists for hire? etc. It's fine to tramp the well-paved roads with the iron jackboot of conformity, but crush the weeds and there is nobody left to split the bedrock. Perhaps that's a bit melodramatic, and I am perhaps blurring your intentions and your associations, for which I beg some degree of forgiveness. > And don't believe MS is going to ignore the ISP market forever. On > the other hand, what they develop will most likely be significantly > cheaper than commercial Unix solutions, but will still not be free. *shrug* The ISP market is already in its death throes. The telcos have decided there is money to be made in it, as was inevitable from the start. All that is left is for them to slowly develop enough of a clue to bring the complaint threshold down into the financial noise, and the "ISP" market will be no more. > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 01:24:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA05945 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA05940 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id EAA06832; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 04:11:28 -0400 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 04:11:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199706070811.EAA06832@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, stefan@exis.net, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jdd@vbc.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706070723.AAA01292@MindBender.serv.net> (michaelv@MindBender.serv.net) Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: The attention span of a computer is only as long as its power cord. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 00:23:19 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" On the other hand, the places where Exchange shines, are medium sized companies to mega corporations, where commercial support is not only preferred, but often required. Commercial support can exist for software in which the users have the freedom to modify and share the program. Cygnus Solutions (http://www.cyclic.com) and Cyclic Software (http://www.cyclic.com) are examples. Anyway, in my experience, you get better `support' when you deal with the people who are hackers because they love hacking than the support you get that you are promised when you buy a commerical product. Commerical support people usually aren't especially knowlegeable, and they usually just plain don't care. And don't believe MS is going to ignore the ISP market forever. On the other hand, what they develop will most likely be significantly cheaper than commercial Unix solutions, but will still not be free. I know some ISPs that think NT is a Good Thing. In fact, my school converted its webpages from a Unix system to Notes on NT, and broke access from lynx in the process. There's some percieved feature that was gained in the process, but I can't figure out what it is. The reality though is that most ISPs know what they're doing, and so they'll chose something sane: some version of Unix. Those big corporations are the ones where the clueless management makes the choices. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 01:36:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA06311 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moon.aa.net ([204.157.220.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA06304 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.aa.net (cust4.max5.seattle.aa.net [206.125.79.4]) by moon.aa.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA32570; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:35:55 -0700 X-Intended-For: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from miles.aa.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.aa.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA19999; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706070836.BAA19999@miles.aa.net> To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: Michael Smith , stefan@exis.net, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jdd@vbc.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes In-reply-to: Message from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" of "Sat, 07 Jun 1997 00:23:19 PDT." <199706070723.AAA01292@MindBender.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 01:36:00 -0700 From: "Reginald S. Perry" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Michael" == Michael L VanLoon <-- HeadCandy.com" > writes: Michael> Uh yeah, right. Look, I'm all for the free Unix thing Michael> myself, but there really is a market for commercial Michael> software and enterprise level support. Try to get the Michael> source code to Digital Unix. Or HP/UX. :-) Actually you can buy a source code license for Digital Unix. Just like you could get the ton of Bliss code that makes up VMS. -Reggie From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 02:26:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA08035 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 02:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA08025 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 02:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.176.130.91] (serialA0f.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.16]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26362; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:24:03 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199706070723.AAA01292@MindBender.serv.net> References: Your message of Sat, 07 Jun 97 16:39:06 +0930. <199706070709.QAA11320@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:23:36 +0100 To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" , Michael Smith From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes Cc: stefan@exis.net, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jdd@vbc.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 8:23 am +0100 7/6/97, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > >And don't believe MS is going to ignore the ISP market forever. On >the other hand, what they develop will most likely be significantly >cheaper than commercial Unix solutions, but will still not be free. > I've been following this strand with interest. I guess that the thing that most concerns me is what will happen when Microsoft has no competition left? At the moment it's busily out-investing its competitors in every sphere it can, and making sure that it locks in its customers once they're there. How long can Netscape survive when explorer comes with W95 which comes with your PC -- like it or not? How long can Lotus, or even POP3 clients like Eudora/Pegasus survive when Exchange clients are /right there/ on the brand new W95 desktop that came with your PC etc.etc. With Apple hanging on by its fingernails, and OS/2 scarcely in the picture, how long will it be before the only alternative to Windows is XFree? Watch for the demise of the remaining commercial desktop/departmental unixes over the next few years as NT underprices them (not difficult). Watch for the retreat of Oracle/Informix to mainframes as backoffice SQLserver undercuts their (outrageous) prices. M$ is already offering ISP's free licences for NT (for one year) here to try to wean them off unix boxes. And then what? How long before 80% of Internet traffic is MS proprietary? Microsoft hustles aggressively in every area where there is still competition. What happens when the competition has finally been destroyed? I know this has all been said over & over again, and I apologise. But the prospect of a world wide monopoly in desktop computing and corporate systems is terrifying. This is bigger than IBM ever managed. Robin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Melville, Addiction Information Services Nottingham Alcohol & Drug Team Tel: +44 (0)115 952 9478 Fax: +44 (0)115 952 9421 work: robmel@nadt.org.uk home: robmel@innotts.co.uk Pages: http://www.innotts.co.uk/~robmel (home page) http://www.innotts.co.uk/nadt (substance misuse pages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 08:00:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20383 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20377 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id LAA23132; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:00:27 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from athena (ts001d19.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.31]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.5) id LAA04728; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33997741.CD96BEA4@concentric.net> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 08:59:13 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b5 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EVENT:You can attend the FTC Junk Email workshop online, June 12, 1997! (fwd) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Annelise Anderson wrote: > > Some of you may find this of interest-- > > Annelise The funny thing, to me, of you posting this here is I only ever got like 4 pieces of SPAM in my life until I joined the FreeBSD lists, and now I average a couple a day. :-) JF From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 08:04:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20605 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20599 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id LAA23670; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:04:24 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from athena (ts001d19.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.31]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.5) id LAA05319; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3399782F.F933CA56@concentric.net> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 09:03:11 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b5 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199706070628.XAA01055@MindBender.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Our > driving mantras when pushing Exchange out the door for the first time > were Reliability and Performance. We celebrated the day we got the > Exchange client down to the "minimum theoretical number of RPCs" for a > SendMessage. Number of RPCs are just one of the release criteria > used when developing additional pieces of Exchange. So this would be the only uber$oft product ever that works correctly? :-) JF From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 08:51:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22240 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22235 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA19456; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970607114329.00be6e38@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 11:43:33 -0400 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Stefan Molnar From: dennis Subject: Re:UNIX vs NT Cc: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:20 PM 6/6/97 -0700, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >UNIX rules and NT sucks, it's even worse than that non-UNIX >thing...Linux. > >BUT... > >this discussion is now on the chat list, so please keep isp out :-). > >And now back to the theme... >Yeah, OS2 is a very cool product and has always been ages ahead of M$, >but their marketing and technical support sucks :(. Microsofts tech support sucks too..... I dont use Windows because its good, or great...I use it because theres so much stuff that runs on it....just like I'll only buy HP printers because every vendor tests their product with HP first........just the way it is. Dennis From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 08:58:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22550 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22543 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 08:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem11.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.41]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03589; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:50:01 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33999E2E.719D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 10:45:18 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" CC: Michael Smith , stefan@exis.net, jdd@vbc.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes References: <199706070723.AAA01292@MindBender.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > Hey, believe it or not, I'm with you. Currently, FreeBSD and/or > NetBSD are about the best OS' available for ISPs. They have so many > advantages for that particular market. > Oh!!! M$ is being mercyful with the free UNIX community :). > On the other hand, the places where Exchange shines, are medium sized > companies to mega corporations, where commercial support is not only > preferred, but often required. > The mega corporations simply don't like risks: they use what everyone uses. If exchange and/or Notes is more popular is not a good way to determine which is (as you say) faster and better. At least I can run a Notes server from UNIX, no chance on ever seeing that on Exchange. BTW, I never suggest FreeBSD as a platform for a company: I know when I leave the building someone is planning to install NT on it. I only recommend UNIX-dependant platforms. If someone wants to ruin an SGI or a DEC witrh NT...well, that's their problem :-). > And don't believe MS is going to ignore the ISP market forever. On > the other hand, what they develop will most likely be significantly > cheaper than commercial Unix solutions, but will still not be free. > Boooo! :-) Pedro. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net > --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 09:31:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA24165 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24160 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem11.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.41]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03643; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:31:01 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3399A7CB.34FA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 11:26:19 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix vs NT References: <199706070715.AAA01256@MindBender.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > >___________________ > >Error "Unspecified error " (0x80004005) encountered while processing the > >query "VFAT". > [...] > > Oh, please. :-) The web and web-based access is flakey all over. You > must not surf a lot. I've gotten errors a lot stranger than that from > just about every kind of host out there. > That's a typical M$ answer: "the web is screwed anyway". Makes me remember the "small stability errors" on win3.1 (I didn't buy win95). > OK, so you were able to make a web server give you an error for a > short period of time. :-) You'll have to try harder. > I think this classifies as "an NT falling over" (BTW, I didn't have to look too hard, it was my first word search). Why not be honest? M$ should use Apache, or NCSA (like Novell), or CERN (like SCO). :-) Pedro. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net > --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 10:14:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26641 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26636 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id NAA08912; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:13:53 -0400 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:13:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199706071713.NAA08912@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706070817.RAA11671@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:47:30 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> So where can we grab the source from to validate your claims, check >>> for security holes, or make variances between what you think we want >>> and we want for ourselves? >> Uh yeah, right. Look, I'm all for the free Unix thing myself, but >> there really is a market for commercial software and enterprise level >> support. Try to get the source code to Digital Unix. Or HP/UX. :-) >Yup. If I go, cap in hand (and a large cheque as well), such things >can be had. Or at the very least, I can look to a wide range of >functionally equivalent alternatives, whose behaviour, security, etc. >can be studied and modified to suit the requirements of a particular >situation. This is also traditionally true with Unix software's source code. While I worked with a company that develops Windows software, I had one gentleman I spoke with outraged because the source code didn't come with our product. (How could I tell him that I sympathized with his plight?) > But Exchange is, and seeks to be, something other. Microsoft have > made no bones about crushing any possible alternatives (you have > yourself alluded to this), yet refusing any chance of peer review. "We are Microsoft. Unix is irrelevant. Notes is irrelevant. Resistance is futilie. You will be assimilated." > Please reread what I wrote. In particular ISV != ISP. The people > that pay most of my way develop unique data acquisition and control > software for a wide variety of research applications. We work > wherever possible with "free" software, because bitter experience has > shown that the only support that you can truly count on is your own, > and to a considerable but somewhat lesser degree, that of other > concerned individuals. The few "non-free" software components we work > with are continual thorns in our collective backside. So what's your view on BSD/I? >> And don't believe MS is going to ignore the ISP market forever. On >> the other hand, what they develop will most likely be significantly >> cheaper than commercial Unix solutions, but will still not be free. > *shrug* The ISP market is already in its death throes. The telcos > have decided there is money to be made in it, as was inevitable from > the start. All that is left is for them to slowly develop enough of a > clue to bring the complaint threshold down into the financial noise, > and the "ISP" market will be no more. Out here in West Texas, trends such as this are difficult to see. Do you really think that the telcos are going to be able to squelch all competition in this market? Also, are you referring only to your dialup ISPs, or are you also talking about your larger ISPs, the ones that the small dialups connect to? (Yes, I realize that this is largely Sprint, MCI, and other LD groups, but AlterNet and other groups still exist.) Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 10:53:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA28729 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rush.aero.org (rush.aero.org [130.221.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28724 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from altair.aero.org (altair.aero.org [130.221.192.64]) by rush.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23967; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from altair.aero.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by altair.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA06378; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706071752.KAA06378@altair.aero.org> To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: scott@statsci.com, davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: uucp uid's In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jun 1997 21:38:14 PDT." <199706070438.AAA03147@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 10:52:31 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Depends on your viewpoint...I'm just trying to think of a way for a remote >system to tell an SMTP daemon that the coast is clear and available for it to >send the mail (rather than forcing it to have to endure network timeouts or >some such). Seems to me that this is what Demon (the UK ISP) does, instead of POP. I'm not sure of the details on how they do it, though. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 16:21:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13779 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13767 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id BAA04753; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 01:00:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA01004; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:51:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970608005147.50116@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:51:47 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Cc: Michael Smith , stefan@exis.net, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jdd@vbc.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes References: <199706070709.QAA11320@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <199706070723.AAA01292@MindBender.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.75 In-Reply-To: <199706070723.AAA01292@MindBender.serv.net>; from Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com on Sat, Jun 07, 1997 at 12:23:19AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jun 07, 1997 at 12:23:19AM -0700, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > Uh yeah, right. Look, I'm all for the free Unix thing myself, but > there really is a market for commercial software and enterprise level > support. Try to get the source code to Digital Unix. Or HP/UX. :-) Michael, I had severe problems, to get the M$ proxy server running. M$ wasn't able to help me with their product and sent me to a M$ $olution Provider. I think M$ isn't able to support the product's they ship. And they aren't able to ship a stable release. All they do is to ship another messy release with lots of new features and bugs .... Netscapes Enterprise Server on WinNT sucks as well. The administration server does hang up sometimes, so I'm not convinced with that product as well ... But since our ISP tells us, that this product doesn't fail on SGI's I still believe, that M$ sucks again, as it does _always_ :-/ I believe that M$ isn't really willed to come up with a stable productivity tool. All they do is to make competition with other companies, try to kick them out of business and to use their genious Marketing Machinery to make people believe, they have fine programs, OS's and tools ... -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 18:16:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA16897 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16891 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00409; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPN/970116) with ESMTP id VAA25082; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:16:37 -0400 (EDT) To: "Mike O'Brien" cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, scott@statsci.com, davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: uucp uid's In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Jun 1997 10:52:31 PDT." <199706071752.KAA06378@altair.aero.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 21:16:37 -0400 Message-ID: <25075.865732597@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Mike O'Brien" wrote in message ID <199706071752.KAA06378@altair.aero.org>: > >Depends on your viewpoint...I'm just trying to think of a way for a remote > >system to tell an SMTP daemon that the coast is clear and available for it t > o > >send the mail (rather than forcing it to have to endure network timeouts or > >some such). > > Seems to me that this is what Demon (the UK ISP) does, instead of POP. > I'm not sure of the details on how they do it, though. At least what they used to do is use MMDF to deliver the inbound mail to a `puntmail' queue. This seemed to be a per-machine (you got mail for an entire machine, not just one account) queueing system. When you logged on, you got the mail `punted' to you by some automated trigger. Mail that arrived while you are online was periodically delivered, presumably in some round-robin system done in the `idle' time between login-delivery requests. I'm surprised they're still using it ... they musta done some serious hacking to make it scalable to 80k+ `machines'. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 7 18:41:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17419 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17414 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA16645; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:10:00 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706080140.LAA16645@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Exchange vs. Notes In-Reply-To: <199706071713.NAA08912@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Jun 7, 97 01:13:53 pm" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:10:00 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, michaelv@MindBender.serv.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck stands accused of saying: > > > But Exchange is, and seeks to be, something other. Microsoft have > > made no bones about crushing any possible alternatives (you have > > yourself alluded to this), yet refusing any chance of peer review. > > "We are Microsoft. Unix is irrelevant. Notes is irrelevant. > Resistance is futilie. You will be assimilated." That's half of it. The "peer review" gripe is just as significant though. > > Please reread what I wrote. In particular ISV != ISP. The people > > that pay most of my way develop unique data acquisition and control > > software for a wide variety of research applications. We work > > wherever possible with "free" software, because bitter experience has > > shown that the only support that you can truly count on is your own, > > and to a considerable but somewhat lesser degree, that of other > > concerned individuals. The few "non-free" software components we work > > with are continual thorns in our collective backside. > > So what's your view on BSD/I? It has nothing to offer us that isn't available for less, with better support, elsewhere. OTOH, they aren't trying for solo domination of any market, or prohibiting peer review (at least, I believe they still sell source licenses), so I have no call to gripe about them. > Out here in West Texas, trends such as this are difficult to see. Do > you really think that the telcos are going to be able to squelch all > competition in this market? Also, are you referring only to your > dialup ISPs, or are you also talking about your larger ISPs, the ones > that the small dialups connect to? (Yes, I realize that this is > largely Sprint, MCI, and other LD groups, but AlterNet and other > groups still exist.) Large organisations like major telcos take a long time to adapt to any sort of change, but ultimately they are the ones with the capital, the advertising bulk, and the infrastructure required to out-compete everyone else. Don't get me wrong, I don't _like_ the thought, I just think it's inevitable. That's not to say that there's no room for other net-related organisations; there will always be content providers, value-added support organsiations, etc., but the connect-user-to-net service business is going to have to go to the companies that can do it on the smallest unit margin... > joelh -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[