From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 00:22:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA07769 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA07761 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id DAA03236 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:22:30 -0400 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: variable sized arrays and gcc To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:22:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This technically isn't a problem with FreeBSD so I think it's best to post about it here. Earlier tonight I was looking through a snapshot of some of the Linux NIS+ client code when I noticed something that just struck me as really strange. Basically, there was code like the following: int some_random_function(str) char *str; { char buf[strlen(str) + 10]; /* do some junk */ return(0); } The problem here is that the array 'buf' is being declared with a variable size. My mommy always told me that you couldn't do that: buf[10] is okay, buf[strlen(foo) + 10] is not. At first I thought I was losing my marbles, but it that seems gcc will compile this code. No other compiler I tried would though (the SunOS 4.1.x unbundled ANSI C compiler, Solaris 2.5.1 unbundled C compiler, HP-UX 10.20 ANSI C compiler, SGI IRIX C compiler and the IBM AIX 4.1.x C compiler all complained about the variable sized array and aborted compilation). Gcc will not complain about this unless you use -ansi -pedantic: even then you get a warning, but it compiles the code anyway. Okay, maybe I haven't been paying attention, but this is the first time I've ever noticed that gcc would let you do this. Personally, I think it's damn strange, especially since _no_ other C compiler I can find behaves the same way. (Well, no other UNIX C compiler; I don't have an M$ C compiler or Borland or Watcom C compiler handy so I don't know what those do. Elvis only knows what horrors M$ Visual C++ lets you perpetrate.) If it's a feature, I don't think it's a particularly good one since it encourages the use of non-ANSI (and apparently non-portable) code. If it's a bug, it's got to be the most carefully engineered bug of all time. :) Is this a side-effect of GNU C and GNU C++ being joined together at the hip, or did I just miss a memo somewhere? -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness" ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 00:51:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA08667 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from css.tuu.utas.edu.au (acs@css.tuu.utas.edu.au [131.217.115.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA08662 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:51:13 -0700 (PDT) From: andrew@ugh.net.au Received: from localhost (acs@localhost) by css.tuu.utas.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA11498; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:52:23 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: depravitas.tuu.utas.edu.au: acs owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:52:23 +1000 (EST) To: Marco Molteni cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Meaning-of-Life: none X-WonK: *wibble* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 9 Aug 1997, Marco Molteni wrote: > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? http://www.newton.apple.com/product_info/product_info.html has links to all the Newton based products (not just Apples) Andrew From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 00:52:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA08741 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA08736 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id CAA01811; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:52:21 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708100752.CAA01811@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc In-Reply-To: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from Bill Paul at "Aug 10, 97 03:22:28 am" To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:52:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Is this a side-effect of GNU C and GNU C++ being joined together at > the hip, or did I just miss a memo somewhere? > I don't know if it is a direct side-effect of GNU C and C++ using the same backend -- however GCC has some really interesting features that could tend to lock-in the lazy programmer... It has ranges for switch statements, it can take the address of code labels, it has some really neat built-ins, etc... If you are very interested, I suggest reading the gcc manual packaged with most gcc distributions. I even bought a copy of the manual from FSF. (It is smaller than 8x10 laser printer output, and more convienient.) If you don't have the facilities to typeset the manual (Tex, etc.) online, I am willing to make a .ps or .dvi (readable with dvips) available to you. I have never done it before, but I might be able to produce a .pdf??? The biggest gripe that I have about GCC's added features is that I really miss them when using a compiler without 'em. I still wish the compiler had more tricks up it's sleeve in the X86 optimization dept. The X86 optimized compiler project improves things a bit, but there is still alot that can be done in the register allocation dept, regarding saving regs around basic blocks and loops... John From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 01:05:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09187 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09182 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id EAA04922; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 04:05:08 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 04:05:08 -0400 Message-Id: <199708100805.EAA04922@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> (message from Bill Paul on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:22:28 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Two is not equal to three, even for large values of two. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I believe that this is mentioned in the info file for glibc 1.09 near the description of alloca. I don't know if it's in the gcc manual. I think you could get the same effect with something like char *buf; buf = alloca (strlen(str) + 10); Note that most GNU hackers try to write code that will compile on any ANSI C compiler anyway, although the Hurd hackers write code which depends on new versions of gcc. It will be interesting to see if five or ten years from now, GNU packages continue to support all Un*x systems, or if they will just support Hurd. I suspect that we'll keep the existing flexibility, since many GNU hackers will likely ahve reasons to use kernels other than Hurd (like the fact that FSF has some old HP300s, one of which the Hurd hackers use as an X terminal; I doubt those machines will ever run Hurd, but NetBSD runs fine on them). From: Bill Paul Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:22:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This technically isn't a problem with FreeBSD so I think it's best to post about it here. Earlier tonight I was looking through a snapshot of some of the Linux NIS+ client code when I noticed something that just struck me as really strange. Basically, there was code like the following: int some_random_function(str) char *str; { char buf[strlen(str) + 10]; /* do some junk */ return(0); } The problem here is that the array 'buf' is being declared with a variable size. My mommy always told me that you couldn't do that: buf[10] is okay, buf[strlen(foo) + 10] is not. At first I thought I was losing my marbles, but it that seems gcc will compile this code. No other compiler I tried would though (the SunOS 4.1.x unbundled ANSI C compiler, Solaris 2.5.1 unbundled C compiler, HP-UX 10.20 ANSI C compiler, SGI IRIX C compiler and the IBM AIX 4.1.x C compiler all complained about the variable sized array and aborted compilation). Gcc will not complain about this unless you use -ansi -pedantic: even then you get a warning, but it compiles the code anyway. Okay, maybe I haven't been paying attention, but this is the first time I've ever noticed that gcc would let you do this. Personally, I think it's damn strange, especially since _no_ other C compiler I can find behaves the same way. (Well, no other UNIX C compiler; I don't have an M$ C compiler or Borland or Watcom C compiler handy so I don't know what those do. Elvis only knows what horrors M$ Visual C++ lets you perpetrate.) If it's a feature, I don't think it's a particularly good one since it encourages the use of non-ANSI (and apparently non-portable) code. If it's a bug, it's got to be the most carefully engineered bug of all time. :) Is this a side-effect of GNU C and GNU C++ being joined together at the hip, or did I just miss a memo somewhere? -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness" ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 01:10:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09432 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA09426 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA05203 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:10:55 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA00731; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:03:37 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970810100337.ZV59622@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:03:37 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc References: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>; from Bill Paul on Aug 10, 1997 03:22:28 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bill Paul wrote: > Okay, maybe I haven't been paying attention, but this is the first > time I've ever noticed that gcc would let you do this. Personally, > I think it's damn strange, especially since _no_ other C compiler I > can find behaves the same way. [...] > If it's a feature, I don't think it's a > particularly good one since it encourages the use of non-ANSI (and > apparently non-portable) code. If it's a bug, it's got to be the most > carefully engineered bug of all time. :) That's the problem with all local extensions a compiler provides. I think it's an interesting feature, and it's clearly mentioned in the language extensions in the info file: rrays of Variable Length ========================= Variable-length automatic arrays are allowed in GNU C. These arrays are declared like any other automatic arrays, but with a length that is not a constant expression. The storage is allocated at the point of declaration and deallocated when the brace-level is exited. For example: ... There are other extensions that fall into the same class, like zero- length arrays -- could be used as placeholder in a struct where the tail of the struct is not fixed: struct foo { int len; char contents[0]; }; ...where `len' tells you about the actual size of the array. You can then easily malloc() the storage for this struct by var = (struct foo *)malloc(sizeof(struct foo) + actual_length); var->len = actual_length; Of course, if you're going to write portable code, you should not use extensions. But if you're going to write a quick hack for your own, extensions can make your life easier. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 01:16:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09772 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09767 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA11993; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:13:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Bill Paul cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:22:28 EDT." <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:13:15 -0700 Message-ID: <11989.871200795@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The problem here is that the array 'buf' is being declared with > a variable size. My mommy always told me that you couldn't do that: > buf[10] is okay, buf[strlen(foo) + 10] is not. At first I thought I > was losing my marbles, but it that seems gcc will compile this code. This has been a gcc feature for ages (and I mean years) but I've always avoided it in favor of an explicit alloca() call for the same reason - I don't want code which walks that far outside ANSI's painted lines. info gcc And look at the gcc enhancements section. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 01:25:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA10150 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA10143 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id CAA05379; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:25:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA25764; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:25:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:25:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Bill Paul cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc In-Reply-To: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Bill Paul wrote: > Is this a side-effect of GNU C and GNU C++ being joined together at > the hip, or did I just miss a memo somewhere? gcc has a lot of "features". Sometimes they are helpful, sometimes they are stupid, nearly always they are annoying if you get used to useing them then stop using gcc. Nested functions, typeof(), macros with variable args (I _really_ wish this was standard sometimes...), inline functions... the list goes on and on. I would be willing to bet you could write a short program using some of gcc's extensions that would look crazy to a good ANSI C programmer. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 02:30:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA13091 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13083 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA00523; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:58:14 +0800 (WST) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:58:13 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: pechter@lakewood.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet In-Reply-To: <199708100610.CAA03240@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > Well, the Internet has changed from its humble beginnings as the > old UUCP net, and ARPANET. Used to it was ham radio, then BBS's, then > the net. What bastions for hobbyists are there now, something where > the popularity doesn't make me sick after fifteen minutes of use? Being someone who entered the BBS scene around Oct '95, I watched the whole BBS thing in Western Australia shrivel up and die. Which was a sad thing, cause I liked BBS's. I was actually tossing up whether to setup an IPv6 tunnel network between local Perth ISPs, then linking the "network" to somewhere in the eastern states. Anyone else on here game? Even an IPIP tunnel with our own network would be really funky. I liked the internet before I started actually getting large amounts of SPAM and the general amount of crap out on the internet. I've heard stories of people setting up "development" networks alongside the internet.. how about we do the same? :) -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 03:44:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA15809 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA15799; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:44:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708101044.DAA15799@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: hoek@hwcn.org Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Aug 10, 97 00:22:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > Hmm... I'm not sure how it works in the US, but in this > particular province here, those going to a private or religious > school find themselves paying twice, once for the public system, > and then again for themselves. Would a change to the tax system > so that those going to a separate system pay only the difference > twice seem reasonable to you? (ie. if one normally had to pay 7$ > to the public system, but one currently had children privately > educated, paying 10$, one would pay only the difference, 3$, to > the public system). > > Incidentally, if you say "No, this is not reasonable; people > going to a private school have tons of money to spare, anyways", > I will be tempted to yell at you very loudly. currently, you have to pay twice. taxes to support the local public school system and then tuition to the private school. yes, it is hard on families, i am currently paying over $10k a year to private schools. one way of easing the burden is to restore the personal tax exemption to the value it had in the 1950's....if i reember correctly that would be nearly $10k rather than the current amount of $2500 the tax revenue would have to be recovered eslsewhere. removing all "special interest tax breaks" would b a good start. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 05:10:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18247 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 05:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (eivind@bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA18242 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 05:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA04516; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:08:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:08:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199708101208.OAA04516@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Adrian Chadd CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Adrian Chadd's message of Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:58:13 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet References: <199708100610.CAA03240@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > Well, the Internet has changed from its humble beginnings as the > > old UUCP net, and ARPANET. Used to it was ham radio, then BBS's, then > > the net. What bastions for hobbyists are there now, something where > > the popularity doesn't make me sick after fifteen minutes of use? > > Being someone who entered the BBS scene around Oct '95, I watched the > whole BBS thing in Western Australia shrivel up and die. Which was a sad > thing, cause I liked BBS's. > > I was actually tossing up whether to setup an IPv6 tunnel network between > local Perth ISPs, then linking the "network" to somewhere in the eastern > states. Anyone else on here game? Even an IPIP tunnel with our own network > would be really funky. Any reason to go for these instead of PPP over TCP/IP, which we already have support for? PPP over TCP over SSH, and you have a VPN there and then. (Well, perhaps you'd want to add name-resolving...) The process of booting a separate Usenet has started. Perhaps it is the time for a new Internet? :-) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 06:00:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA19900 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19891 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13084; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19735; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:01:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:01:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Bill Paul cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc In-Reply-To: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Bill Paul wrote: > int some_random_function(str) > char *str; > { > char buf[strlen(str) + 10]; Heck, you can even do int some_func (int a, int b, int c, char ar[a][b][c]) { /* Which gives me a full-blown multidimensional array * as ar (ie. char[a][b][c], not char ***) */ } FWIW, I rather like these extensions. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 06:31:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA20952 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod1.logic.it [195.120.151.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA20947 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1900 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Aug 1997 13:30:22 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:30:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: Sean Kelly cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad In-Reply-To: <33ECAB5E.5439@fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 9 Aug 1997, Sean Kelly wrote: > > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? > > I'm partial to the PalmPilot, from US Robotics. It lacks a lot of > features compared to the latest Newtons or Windows CE (whatever the heck > that means) palm computers, but it's cheap, does what I need, and fits > in my shirt pocket, which no other palm computer can boast. So far. the PalmPilot and the windows CE are too small for what I'd like to to (no, I'm not jocking! ;-) since I'd like to "write" on the MessagePad instead of writing on pieces of paper. Also, as far as I know, the Newton is the only which does (or tries to do) handwritten recognition. Marco From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 09:22:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA28150 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saffron.fsl.noaa.gov (saffron.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28144 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by saffron.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00342; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:22:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33EDEAB4.6B42AF94@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:22:12 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad References: <199708091911.MAA06587@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------13F6AB3953DCD688F500D690" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------13F6AB3953DCD688F500D690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amancio Hasty wrote: > Same here plus I like the PalmPilot. I think that there is a unix > interface for it. Aye. At ftp://ryeham.ee.rverson.ca/pub/PalmOS is a collection of FreeBSD-compatible utlities that I use both at home and at work to talk to my PalmPilot. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ --------------13F6AB3953DCD688F500D690 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Sean Kelly Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Sean Kelly n: Kelly;Sean org: CIRA/NOAA adr: NOAA/OAR/ERL/FSL/SDD R/E/FS4;;325 Broadway;Boulder;Colorado;80303;USA email;internet: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov title: Research Coordinator tel;work: 303.497.6247 tel;fax: 303.497.7256 tel;home: Yeah, right. x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE end: vcard --------------13F6AB3953DCD688F500D690-- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 10:39:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01982 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01974 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA17243; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:39:19 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:39:19 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708101739.KAA17243@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <199708100752.CAA01811.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from Bill Paul at "Aug 10, 97 03:22:28 am" Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Is this a side-effect of GNU C and GNU C++ being joined together at >> the hip, or did I just miss a memo somewhere? >I don't know if it is a direct side-effect of GNU C and C++ using the >same backend -- however GCC has some really interesting features that >could tend to lock-in the lazy programmer... It has ranges for >switch statements, it can take the address of code labels, it has >some really neat built-ins, etc... gcc has had variable sized arrays since '88, I believe. The feature will now make it into the next ANSI C version. (Along with a bunch of stuff that is *WRONG* and *EVIL*. But this particular feature I happen to like.) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 10:41:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02088 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02083 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA17289; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:40:59 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:40:59 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708101740.KAA17289@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc In-Reply-To: References: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article you write: >Nested functions, typeof(), macros with variable args (I _really_ wish >this was standard sometimes...), inline functions... the list goes on and >on. Variardic macros and 'inline' are also going to be in the next ANSI C standard. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 10:42:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02173 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02168 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA17395; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:42:38 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:42:38 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708101742.KAA17395@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc In-Reply-To: <11989.871200795.kithrup.freebsd.chat@time.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:22:28 EDT." <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <11989.871200795.kithrup.freebsd.chat@time.cdrom.com> you write: >This has been a gcc feature for ages (and I mean years) but I've >always avoided it in favor of an explicit alloca() call for the same >reason - I don't want code which walks that far outside ANSI's painted >lines. alloca is not ANSI either, Jordan :). Not all systems provide it; not all compilers really have support for it. (You can use Doug Gwyn's "portable" one, but that's iffy.) alloca() was the reason gcc added VLA's in the first place, actually. And the code is the same. The scary part about VLA's is that they mean sizeof() is no longer a evaluated-only-at-compile-time operator. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 11:06:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03473 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03467 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id OAA09317; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:06:02 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:06:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199708101806.OAA09317@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu CC: grog@lemis.com, bob@luke.pmr.com, hoek@hwcn.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Annelise Anderson on Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:03:28 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Meanwhile, what is Bill Gates going to do with Apple, assuming that > Apple probably needs continuing infusions of funds and Microsoft > therefore has some influence? > --He got some anti-trust protection by keeping them alive > (by agreeing to produce Mac versions of Excel etc. for 5 years) Hmmm... I seem to recall a little bit about an agreement between Apple and The Empire some time ago... when The Emperor agreed to produce Mac versions of their software (Excel was an *excellent* app on the Mac) but failed to deliver... and the lack of business apps was part of what killed the Mac. Is this the agreement you're referring to, or is Apple falling for the same line *again*? > But as a long term strategy.... > --Rewrite the graphics etc. apps where Apple is the leader > for Windows (NT, whatever); let Apple struggle, die, get absorbed You mean, rewrite or buy out Adobe, etc? That's going to be tough either way... Adobe's been at this game for a long time, and we all *know* how good of a product MS puts out the first shot out of the pen. When they were trying to do this frequently earlier, they got an injunction slapped against them. (MS discovered they couldn't *give* away Microsoft Money, so they tried to buy Intuit, and had done several similar acts that year. The courts slapped them with an anti-trust injuction. At the time, I had a button that said, "We are Microsoft. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.") Cheers, joelh -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 11:24:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04598 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04593 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id OAA09462; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:24:27 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:24:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199708101824.OAA09462@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com CC: pechter@lakewood.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708100625.XAA01142@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio Hasty on Sat, 09 Aug 1997 23:25:49 -0700) Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>> Hang on a second, UUNet is the Internet 8) >>> They really have forgotten their roots and humble start. >>> Boy have they become a real Pain In The Ass since they dropped the UUCP >>> business to small sites and started hanging out with the likes of >>> Microsoft 8-) >> Well, the Internet has changed from its humble beginnings as the >> old UUCP net, and ARPANET. Used to it was ham radio, then BBS's, then >> the net. What bastions for hobbyists are there now, something where >> the popularity doesn't make me sick after fifteen minutes of use? > Chaos will rule in the Internet however when it affects my inbox thats > a whole different ball game. > Besides, if we don't stop this popular new trend you can kiss > global public e-mail good bye . As the days go by , I am leaning > more and more to simply shutdown my e-mail subsystem and only let > very few entries in. So if the spammers win rest assure that many > will do as I am thinking of. No, we will simply stop using public media such as the Usenet, and never give out our snailmail addresses. -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 11:32:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05010 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05005 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id OAA09511; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:32:17 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:32:17 -0400 Message-Id: <199708101832.OAA09511@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708100722.DAA03236@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> (message from Bill Paul on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 03:22:28 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Okay, maybe I haven't been paying attention, but this is the first > time I've ever noticed that gcc would let you do this. Personally, > I think it's damn strange, especially since _no_ other C compiler I > can find behaves the same way. gcc has been doing variable sized arrays for some time. RTFM; it has a section on this and many other non-ANSI GCC features which can make life *much* easier (including things such as a no-side-effect, any-type-argument version of MIN and MAX, printf-style argument checking, etc, etc). > If it's a feature, I don't think it's a particularly good one since > it encourages the use of non-ANSI (and apparently non-portable) > code. Well, in most situations it can be handled portably nearly as easily. But not always. The real question is, what are your priorities? If you are writing an internal program, that is never going to leave your company's walls, use every compiler trick and OS trick you know. If you are writing for FreeBSD, I see no problem using extentions common to both gcc and pcc. (inline, for instance.) But if you are writing a new version of empire, then it's time to use malloc. Happy hacking, joelh -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 11:37:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05534 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05528 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id OAA09590; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:37:30 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:37:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199708101837.OAA09590@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: sef@Kithrup.COM CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708101739.KAA17243@kithrup.com> (message from Sean Eric Fagan on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:39:19 -0700) Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The feature will now make it into the next ANSI C version. (Along with a > bunch of stuff that is *WRONG* and *EVIL*. But this particular feature I > happen to like.) Like what? -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 11:39:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05656 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05651 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id OAA09609; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:38:58 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:38:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199708101838.OAA09609@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: sef@Kithrup.COM CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708101742.KAA17395@kithrup.com> (message from Sean Eric Fagan on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:42:38 -0700) Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > alloca() was the reason gcc added VLA's in the first place, actually. And > the code is the same. But VLA's are easier to read. And clean up on exit, instead of Gwyn's implementation, which cleans up on next alloca() call. -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 11:46:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06170 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06165 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id LAA21530 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:45:58 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:45:58 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708101845.LAA21530@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> The feature will now make it into the next ANSI C version. (Along with a >> bunch of stuff that is *WRONG* and *EVIL*. But this particular feature I >> happen to like.) >Like what? The one I particularly hate, which distresses me greatly, is the C++-ish ability to declare a variable anywhere. E.g., foo() { int i; printf ("i = %d\n", i); int j; printf ("j = %d, i still = %d\n", j, i); } This is useful in exactly one situation that I can think of: for (int i = 0; i < 100; i++) { printf ("i = %d\n", i); } but even that has complications. (How do you declare multiple variables of different types?) It's not as if any existing code truly uses this -- the only code that has this is C++, and C++ is not C. It adds very little to the language, except for an ability to have even more badly written code, and will make some compilers a bit harder to write (but that's balanced by making others a bit easier to write). It's ugly. Yuck. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 11:46:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06241 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06233 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04623; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708101846.LAA04623@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: pechter@lakewood.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:24:27 EDT." <199708101824.OAA09462@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:46:46 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Joel Ray Holveck : > No, we will simply stop using public media such as the Usenet, and > never give out our snailmail addresses. The need to be part of the whole such as Usenet is providing will never go away . The principal of freedom and order will prevail. The problem know facing the Internet is how to enforce and protect its existence and I am afraid that the "old ways" of dealing with problems such as spammers may resurface . Lets us pray that our young "Republic" will be able to effectively deal with the problem of chaotic distibution of information. Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 12:01:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06991 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06983; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA00218; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:57:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708101044.DAA15799@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > > Hmm... I'm not sure how it works in the US, but in this > > particular province here, those going to a private or religious > > school find themselves paying twice, once for the public system, > > and then again for themselves. Would a change to the tax system > > so that those going to a separate system pay only the difference > > twice seem reasonable to you? (ie. if one normally had to pay 7$ > > to the public system, but one currently had children privately > > educated, paying 10$, one would pay only the difference, 3$, to > > the public system). If one school cost $12 instead of $10, the parents of a child in that school would pay $5 instead of $3. I think what you want to do is cover a minimum. The proposal that's been around for quite a while, in different forms, is the school voucher. The parents get a voucher for a child worth say $1500 (probably something less than the full cost of sending the kid to public school). They can take this to any school, public or private; if public, they pay no more. If private (including parochial schools) they pay whatever the school charges in addition. Some voucher programs exist, especially in Wisconsin and Minnesota. There is powerful resistance from teachers' unions, especially to including private schools in a "school choice" program; parents often have a choice among public schools (in San Mateo County, where I live, parents can send a child to any of its public schools). (The Constitutional question of separation of church and state is pretty much taken care of by giving the vouchers to the parents and not directly to the schools, although some people still consider it unconstitutional.) The argument for school choice/vouchers is that there would be competition among schools and thus some improvement; proponents argue that it is especially important in inner cities where schools are more likely to be appallingly bad and also dangerous. There are a lot of arguments against vouchers; what we really need is an experiment in a large state (e.g., California) that goes on for long enough to produce some results. The argument against vouchers from the libertarian perspective is that it will lead to more government control of private schools, and in fact all schools will be subject to the same rules & regs that hamper public schools. > > Incidentally, if you say "No, this is not reasonable; people > > going to a private school have tons of money to spare, anyways", > > I will be tempted to yell at you very loudly. > > currently, you have to pay twice. taxes to support the local > public school system and then tuition to the private school. > yes, it is hard on families, i am currently paying over $10k > a year to private schools. one way of easing the burden is > to restore the personal tax exemption to the value it had > in the 1950's....if i reember correctly that would be > nearly $10k rather than the current amount of $2500 > > the tax revenue would have to be recovered eslsewhere. > removing all "special interest tax breaks" would b a good > start. > jmb I like the school voucher approach better than increasing the personal exemption, because it provides choice at all income levels. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 12:54:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10461 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp1671.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1671.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10453; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1671.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00543; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:53:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > and then again for themselves. Would a change to the tax system > > > so that those going to a separate system pay only the difference > > > twice seem reasonable to you? (ie. if one normally had to pay 7$ > > > to the public system, but one currently had children privately > > > educated, paying 10$, one would pay only the difference, 3$, to > > > the public system). > > If one school cost $12 instead of $10, the parents of a child in that > school would pay $5 instead of $3. I think what you want to do is That's the intention. :-) > The proposal that's been around for quite a while, in different forms, > is the school voucher. The parents get a voucher for a child worth > say $1500 (probably something less than the full cost of sending the Yes, the voucher idea is gaining popularity around here, too. In addition to helping separate & religious schools, it also has the benefit of inducing some amount of competition in public schools. I tend to be slightly liberal, though, and I think that the voucher discourages the development of a quality public system. The monetary value of the voucher will slowly be eroded, and the rich will be unaffected, but those with less money will not have the ability to suplement the voucher. > Constitutional question of separation of church and state is pretty > much taken care of by giving the vouchers to the parents and not > directly to the schools, although some people still consider it > unconstitutional.) Hm. It's the reverse that some people consider unconstitutional here. :) > There are a lot of arguments against vouchers; what we really need > is an experiment in a large state (e.g., California) that goes on for > long enough to produce some results. I think the Tory gov't in Ontario tends to theoretically support vouchers. I don't think they'll try it, though, since they're in enough trouble as it is. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 12:55:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10575 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10562; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04178; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:54:53 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:55:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > If one school cost $12 instead of $10, the parents of a child in that > school would pay $5 instead of $3. I think what you want to do is > cover a minimum. > > The proposal that's been around for quite a while, in different forms, > is the school voucher. The parents get a voucher for a child worth > say $1500 (probably something less than the full cost of sending the > kid to public school). They can take this to any school, public or > private; if public, they pay no more. If private (including parochial > schools) they pay whatever the school charges in addition. [lots of good stuff elided here...] > > I like the school voucher approach better than increasing the > personal exemption, because it provides choice at all income > levels. Annelise, tho only thing that scares me about the school voucher thing is the terrible fact of prejudice. You're in academia somewhat, aren't you? I don't know if you have the visibility to the politics that editors and publishers of school texts have to wade thru. It makes it hard to produce books that actually teach something, because local school boards are very often more interested in pursuing local prejudices. At the state level, this is absolutely endemic. I consider this really hamful. I like to think of myself as being egalitarian. While no one is free of prejudice, I try, and school vouchers (it seems to me) allow this kind of abuse without any limitation. Annelise, if you can comment on that, I'd appreciate it, I really would. I'm not against school vouchers for any other reason that I can think of. [You too, Jon, but Annelise deals with public policy, and I'm really interested in her take on this]. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 13:00:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA10944 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10893 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA10271; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:59:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: Marco Molteni cc: Sean Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Marco Molteni wrote: > Also, as far as I know, the Newton is the only which does (or tries to do) > handwritten recognition. Not exactly handwritten recognition, Grafitti is a shorthand that closely resembles handwritten print. Without a keyboard, the Pilot would be almost useless without Grafitti, though you still have the on-screen keyboard option. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 14:37:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16745 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16731; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708102137.OAA16731@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu (Annelise Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Annelise Anderson" at Aug 10, 97 11:57:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > The argument for school choice/vouchers is that there would be competition > among schools and thus some improvement; proponents argue that it is > especially important in inner cities where schools are more likely > to be appallingly bad and also dangerous. inner city schools are so dangerous for at least two reasons: the students that attend those schools the low level of funding per student many rural schools have only the funding problem, but are still "poor" schools due the way we have each school district self-fund through local property taxes rather than state-wide. > > There are a lot of arguments against vouchers; what we really need > is an experiment in a large state (e.g., California) that goes on for > long enough to produce some results. vouchers pay people to segregate themselves from the rest of the community increasing the factionalism that we suffer from today. for the ills that compulsory military service entails, one benefit is to create a common experience shared by a large number of the adult population. an experience that can serve to unify the citizenry (provided its not abused, as it was during the vietnam war) > > The argument against vouchers from the libertarian perspective is > that it will lead to more government control of private schools, and > in fact all schools will be subject to the same rules & regs that > hamper public schools. > > > > > Incidentally, if you say "No, this is not reasonable; people > > > going to a private school have tons of money to spare, anyways", > > > I will be tempted to yell at you very loudly. > > > > currently, you have to pay twice. taxes to support the local > > public school system and then tuition to the private school. > > yes, it is hard on families, i am currently paying over $10k > > a year to private schools. one way of easing the burden is > > to restore the personal tax exemption to the value it had > > in the 1950's....if i reember correctly that would be > > nearly $10k rather than the current amount of $2500 > > > > the tax revenue would have to be recovered eslsewhere. > > removing all "special interest tax breaks" would b a good > > start. > > jmb > > I like the school voucher approach better than increasing the > personal exemption, because it provides choice at all income > levels. i dont understand. the personal exemption is availabel to all income levels--equally--everyone subtracts "number of dependents" * "personal exemption" from their income". for the very poor, there is the earned income tax credit, or at least there was until recently. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 14:42:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17025 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17018; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA00733; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:37:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Chuck Robey cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > Annelise, tho only thing that scares me about the school voucher thing is > the terrible fact of prejudice. You're in academia somewhat, aren't you? > I don't know if you have the visibility to the politics that editors and > publishers of school texts have to wade thru. It makes it hard to produce > books that actually teach something, because local school boards are very > often more interested in pursuing local prejudices. > > At the state level, this is absolutely endemic. I consider this really > hamful. I like to think of myself as being egalitarian. While no one is > free of prejudice, I try, and school vouchers (it seems to me) allow this > kind of abuse without any limitation. I'm in general aware that publishers make a lot of changes to satisfy school boards or whoever it is that decides what texts may be adopted. But a private school is not limited by the decisions of a state board. I would expect more diversity in texts in both areas like U.S. history and the 3Rs. But predicting how all this would play out is difficult and is the reason why a state is not going to adopt it across the board, but will experiment first. (It would be interesting to know how the texts used by private schools in Wisconsin and Minnesota compare to those used in the public schools; I don't know.) The governor of California considered a proposal to fund school vouchers for children in any school that ranked in the lowest 5 percent on standard tests. That would have created a fairly large experiment. Many of the eligible students would have been in places like "LA". New private schools would (in time) come into being--if the vouchers were generous enough. Some of these new schools might be rackets. Some of them might be created by, e.g., the Catholic church, or through expansion of Catholic schools. I would doubt that the texts selected would express a lot of prejudice. Probably texts selected in a "white enclave" private school might be; but that possibility is open now. And I'm not sure that white parents want to bring up prejudiced children who have to live in an increasingly racially diverse environment. Anyway, aren't you setting up the state regulators, the people who decide what texts are acceptable, as the protectors against prejudice, the very people you now see as expressing their prejudices? :-) In general this is a variant of the state's rights issue--whether you can trust states and localities (and the private, perhaps non-profit, sector) to do the right thing, and live with it if in some places they don't. Certainly we decided in Brown v. Board of Education that we couldn't. The country is a little more ready at this point to think that maybe we can (although some proposals reflect the exact opposite). California has long centralized decisions about acceptable texts. I'm not sure what prejudices are expressed in areas like U.S. history. But years ago they went with "whole language" reading and "whole math", and this centralization has been a disaster out of which they are working slowly. California test scores are low across the board (not just in areas where English is not the native language). There are children who need a calculator to figure out 10% of 470. These decisions on how to teach reading and arithmetic are now viewed as a mistake; it would be better if such decisions were not so centralized. This is sort of heavy stuff, isn't it? Sorry. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 14:58:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17937 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17931; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA00788; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:53:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Yes, the voucher idea is gaining popularity around here, too. In > addition to helping separate & religious schools, it also has the > benefit of inducing some amount of competition in public schools. > > I tend to be slightly liberal, though, and I think that the voucher > discourages the development of a quality public system. The But it may improve the public schools. They'd have to compete for students. Are enough parents smart enough and concerned enough to pick a "good" school? (I think so.) Would the public schools be left with the difficult children--handicapped, disruptive, whatever? I sort of doubt it; but maybe the state then says: here's a difficult kid, this is a $3000 kid instead of a $1500 kid. > monetary value of the voucher will slowly be eroded, and the rich > will be unaffected, but those with less money will not have the > ability to suplement the voucher. It doesn't have to erode; it can be set by formula, related to how much the state budget per child is, or something like that. Of course, what you get from the legislature isn't always what you ask for. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 14:59:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18125 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18118; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:59:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708102159.OAA18118@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Aug 10, 97 03:55:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey wrote: > > Annelise, tho only thing that scares me about the school voucher thing is > the terrible fact of prejudice. You're in academia somewhat, aren't you? > I don't know if you have the visibility to the politics that editors and > publishers of school texts have to wade thru. It makes it hard to produce > books that actually teach something, because local school boards are very > often more interested in pursuing local prejudices. > > At the state level, this is absolutely endemic. I consider this really > hamful. I like to think of myself as being egalitarian. While no one is > free of prejudice, I try, and school vouchers (it seems to me) allow this > kind of abuse without any limitation. > from what i have heard the california and texas school boards buy so many school books that publishers write for those two markets and let everyone else select whichever one of he two they prefer ;) > Annelise, if you can comment on that, I'd appreciate it, I really would. > I'm not against school vouchers for any other reason that I can think of. > [You too, Jon, but Annelise deals with public policy, and I'm really > interested in her take on this]. i'll shutup now ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 15:17:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19229 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19223; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id RAA29231; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:16:49 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708102216.RAA29231@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708102137.OAA16731@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Aug 10, 97 02:37:21 pm" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:16:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > The argument for school choice/vouchers is that there would be competition > > among schools and thus some improvement; proponents argue that it is > > especially important in inner cities where schools are more likely > > to be appallingly bad and also dangerous. > > inner city schools are so dangerous for at least two reasons: > the students that attend those schools > the low level of funding per student > Add: lousy managment of the school. Locally, here in Indianapolis, schools have been cleaned-up by shaking up the managment of the school. Chicago is also using that concept to improve their situation. I live in a "border" area, where the nearby high school has alot of kids that come from poverty (my immediate area is really nice though.) That high school now has very little drug abuse, etc. Much of the changeover was due to the change in principal and support by the local school board and parents. This is one place where the competition aspect comes into play. I could imagine where a school goes below critical mass -- administration/teachers go away, and then the school is reconstituted in a year or so. That would have the advantage of disrupting disfunctional behaviors (both by school administration, and student culture.) The good thing about school vouchers is that even alot of families in poverty care about their kids. They can also vote with their voucher. I would think that the voucher would "enable" the poor folk, and not necessarily give advantage to the upper-middle class. The biggest group disadvantaged by the "voucher" concept are the entrenched bureaucrats (incl school admins), and I kind of like that idea :-). John From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 15:25:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19700 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA19687 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem20.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA02478; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:14:10 -0400 Message-Id: <33EE597E.758A@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:14:54 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, grog@lemis.com, bob@luke.pmr.com, hoek@hwcn.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. References: <199708101806.OAA09317@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > > Is this the agreement you're referring to, or is Apple falling for the > same line *again*? > They simply joined the dark side: ______________ ... Another bolt of lightning is that Apple plus Microsoft equals 100% of the desktop computer market. And so, whatever Apple and Microsoft agree to do, it's a standard. ... (excerpt from http://www.apple.com/home/news/macworld97/jobsspeech.html) ______________ Pedro. > > Cheers, > joelh > > -- > Second law of programming: > Anything that can go wrong wi > sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 15:30:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19990 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19983; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA00934; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:27:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708102137.OAA16731@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > inner city schools are so dangerous for at least two reasons: > the students that attend those schools > the low level of funding per student > > many rural schools have only the funding problem, but > are still "poor" schools due the way we have each school > district self-fund through local property taxes rather than > state-wide. California school funds don't stay where they're raised; the state moves the money around. I thought this was the result of a Supreme Court decision, but maybe it's just California. So, there's equal funding per student, roughly. > vouchers pay people to segregate themselves from the rest of > the community increasing the factionalism that we suffer from > today. for the ills that compulsory military service entails, > one benefit is to create a common experience shared by a > large number of the adult population. an experience that can > serve to unify the citizenry (provided its not abused, as it > was during the vietnam war) No, vouchers come much closer to equalizing the opportunity to select a school; in Washington, D.C., almost no members of the Congress send their kids to public school; neither does the president; and neither, it seems, does jmb. :) > > I like the school voucher approach better than increasing the > > personal exemption, because it provides choice at all income > > levels. > > i dont understand. the personal exemption is availabel to > all income levels--equally--everyone subtracts "number of > dependents" * "personal exemption" from their income". > > for the very poor, there is the earned income tax credit, > or at least there was until recently. > > jmb The personal exemption means there's some income on which you don't have to pay taxes; but it doesn't give you the right to take funds that would otherwise go to the public school to educate your kid and go shopping with them (shopping only for education!). School vouchers are sort of like.....food stamps. In fact that's why some proposals call them "scholarships" instead of vouchers. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 15:33:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20186 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliffy.statsci.com (root@cliffy.statsci.com [206.63.206.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20180; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knife.statsci.com (knife [206.63.206.137]) by cliffy.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Hub) with ESMTP id PAA30474; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:33:30 -0700 Received: from knife.statsci.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knife.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/UUCP) with ESMTP id PAA00370; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708102233.PAA00370@knife.statsci.com> To: Annelise Anderson cc: ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations References: In-reply-to: From: Scott Blachowicz Reply-to: scott@statsci.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <364.871252408.1@knife.statsci.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:33:29 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Annelise Anderson wrote: > But it may improve the public schools. They'd have to compete for > students. How do they compete if they have less money? Don't the vouchers imply less money for the public schools, which in turn probably implies cutbacks and no means to expand the curriculae? > Are enough parents smart enough and concerned enough to > pick a "good" school? (I think so.) Would the public schools be > left with the difficult children--handicapped, disruptive, whatever? Well...if you think that some other school is better, doesn't that mean that some school will be considered inferior? The inferior school will be left with kids who couldn't get into the "better" schools or kids with parents who aren't smart enough or concerned enough to move to the "better" school. Either way, the "inferior" school probably doesn't see improvement. I don't really know about the voucher stuff, but it seems like it HAS to lead to less money for the public system and it seems like that HAS to reduce the public schools' quality. Doesn't it? Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 15:39:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20739 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20726; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:39:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708102239.PAA20726@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708102216.RAA29231@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Aug 10, 97 05:16:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John S. Dyson wrote: > > The good thing about school vouchers is that even alot of families in poverty > care about their kids. They can also vote with their voucher. I would think > that the voucher would "enable" the poor folk, and not necessarily give i dont know....regarding the tax break for college tuition, i hear that college will raise prices by the amount of the tax break. if that is true, wouldnt private schools raise tuition by the amount of the voucher? annelise, what is your take on this aspect? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 15:50:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21215 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21205; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:50:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708102250.PAA21205@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu (Annelise Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Annelise Anderson" at Aug 10, 97 03:27:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Annelise Anderson wrote: > > California school funds don't stay where they're raised; the state > moves the money around. I thought this was the result of a Supreme > Court decision, but maybe it's just California. So, there's equal > funding per student, roughly. in maryland the money is tied to the local property taxes and does not move...i believe the same is true in texas. > > > vouchers pay people to segregate themselves from the rest of > > the community increasing the factionalism that we suffer from > > today. for the ills that compulsory military service entails, > > one benefit is to create a common experience shared by a > > large number of the adult population. an experience that can > > serve to unify the citizenry (provided its not abused, as it > > was during the vietnam war) > > No, vouchers come much closer to equalizing the opportunity to select > a school; in Washington, D.C., almost no members of the Congress send > their kids to public school; neither does the president; and neither, > it seems, does jmb. :) true, true, yet i am not in favor of vouchers nonetheless. i'm not too bright ;) > > > > I like the school voucher approach better than increasing the > > > personal exemption, because it provides choice at all income > > > levels. > > > > i dont understand. the personal exemption is availabel to > > all income levels--equally--everyone subtracts "number of > > dependents" * "personal exemption" from their income". > > > > for the very poor, there is the earned income tax credit, > > or at least there was until recently. > > > > jmb > > The personal exemption means there's some income on which you don't > have to pay taxes; but it doesn't give you the right to take funds > that would otherwise go to the public school to educate your kid and > go shopping with them (shopping only for education!). School vouchers > are sort of like.....food stamps. In fact that's why some proposals > call them "scholarships" instead of vouchers. well, john dyson said that poor people care about their kids. i can believe that. anyone who is working to support their children is doing something right already. but why should "we" decide how they have to spend the money? if the parents feel that private school is the right thing, let them purchase it...or let them use the money to move to a neighborhood where the public schools are better...or whatever. hwo are we to decide that for them? wow! now is sound like a libertarian :) bottom line....return the personal exemption to what it was before inflation eroded it to its present state. the additional money for families will alleivate a number of stresses that families face. living on a single income will be an option for more people, should they wish to do that. if not, both of them can continue to work. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 15:50:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21243 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21231; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id RAA29453; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:50:42 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708102250.RAA29453@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708102239.PAA20726@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Aug 10, 97 03:39:33 pm" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:50:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > The good thing about school vouchers is that even alot of families in poverty > > care about their kids. They can also vote with their voucher. I would think > > that the voucher would "enable" the poor folk, and not necessarily give > > i dont know....regarding the tax break for college tuition, > i hear that college will raise prices by the amount of the > tax break. if that is true, wouldnt private schools raise > tuition by the amount of the voucher? > Maybe, maybe not -- however it would bring the spectre of competition into the public school arena. Again, I really do believe that there are alot of poor people who are "middle class" but unfortunate. There is a prevailing liberal attitude that poor people don't/can't care about themselves, and I have found that the opposite is true. Sure, there are alot of people who don't care about themselves, or their families, and it is doubly bad when they are poor also. (I would not know how to live, making $15K-$25K/year with a kid or two, but those working poor do get by.) They cannot be dumb... Actually, the biggest thing that the vouchers will do is to shake-up the school admins, and that is good. Why do you think that so many resist the school voucher idea? Imagine a sloppy school that is at risk of closing, and the principal is "at risk." Risk is an amazing motivator (sp?). I don't think that a career of an administrator is nearly as important as the quality of care and education that children get. These school admins make a reasonable amount of money compared to their teacher peers, and with that additional income, comes responsibility. We get paid for responsibility and innovation, and I think that a manager of a school should have appropriate feedback mechanisms also. Along with the feedback mechanisms, the management of a school needs to be "enabled" and "empowered" (in the truest sense of the words.) John From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 15:54:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21394 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA21387 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:54:12 -0700 (PDT) From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199708102254.PAA21387@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:01:24 +1200 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: TV Production Centre, Massey University To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:01:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad Reply-to: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Priority: normal In-reply-to: <33ECAB5E.5439@fsl.noaa.gov> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly wrote: > > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? > > I'm partial to the PalmPilot, from US Robotics. It lacks a lot of > features compared to the latest Newtons or Windows CE (whatever the > heck that means) palm computers, but it's cheap, does what I need, > and fits in my shirt pocket, which no other palm computer can boast. What he said. Seriously though, I try not to be a brand-bigot. What I've seen of the Newton family they're actually pretty cool. A co-worker just bought an Emate and they're a pretty funky toy and at the price quite a viable alternative to purchasing a traditional notebook. My Pilot is small and simple enough that it's gone from being a whizzy toy to something that I actually use on a daily basis (although I'm finding the electronic todo list both (a) a useful organisational tool and (b) a depressing reminder of my workload). My only concern wrt the Pilot is 3com's stated intention to turn it into the wonder wireless tool of the late '90s. Which is all very well for those of you that live in densely populated nations where RF networking is cheap, but here in NZ CDPD access or similar is likely to be violently expensive (can anybody say Telecommunications Monopoly? I knew you could). -- C. -- Craig Harding Acting Director, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 16:00:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21665 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21657; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:00:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708102300.QAA21657@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708102250.RAA29453@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Aug 10, 97 05:50:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John S. Dyson wrote: > > poor people who are "middle class" but unfortunate. There is a prevailing liberal > attitude that poor people don't/can't care about themselves, and I have found that > the opposite is true. Sure, there are alot of people who don't care about themselves, > or their families, and it is doubly bad when they are poor also. (I would not > know how to live, making $15K-$25K/year with a kid or two, but those working poor do > get by.) They cannot be dumb... liberals do not believe that poor people cant/dont/wont. i dont buy that. i also dont understand how people can get by making $15K-$25K/year with a kid or two...that must be very tough.....hmm....in '87 i was making about 28 with two kids, maybe i do understand. it was not pleasent(sp). thank god those days are behind me (for) now. > > Actually, the biggest thing that the vouchers will do is to shake-up the school > admins, and that is good. Why do you think that so many resist the school voucher perhaps they fear being the "schools of last resort" while facing reduced funding. after a few years, arguments in the legislature that they are wasteful and incompetent compared to schools that can oust problem students. possible further cuts in spending on public schools. > idea? Imagine a sloppy school that is at risk of closing, and the principal is > "at risk." Risk is an amazing motivator (sp?). I don't think that a career > of an administrator is nearly as important as the quality of care and education > that children get. These school admins make a reasonable amount of money compared > to their teacher peers, and with that additional income, comes responsibility. > > We get paid for responsibility and innovation, and I think that a manager of a > school should have appropriate feedback mechanisms also. Along with the feedback > mechanisms, the management of a school needs to be "enabled" and "empowered" (in > the truest sense of the words.) touch to see that part happening...easier to give away vouchers and run...look at the budget agreement and them look at the out years...easier to cut and run. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 16:02:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21743 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21736; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA01142; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:53:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Scott Blachowicz cc: ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708102233.PAA00370@knife.statsci.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Scott Blachowicz wrote: > Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > But it may improve the public schools. They'd have to compete for > > students. > > How do they compete if they have less money? Don't the vouchers imply less > money for the public schools, which in turn probably implies cutbacks and no > means to expand the curriculae? Most proposals involve new public funds, so the schools wouldn't get less money (or less money per student). Ultimately there's no reason why a voucher system should cost (overall) more than people are currently paying in taxes plus what they pay for private tuition. There's also no evidence that what students learn correlates with the amount spent per student. > > Are enough parents smart enough and concerned enough to > > pick a "good" school? (I think so.) Would the public schools be > > left with the difficult children--handicapped, disruptive, whatever? > > Well...if you think that some other school is better, doesn't that mean that > some school will be considered inferior? The inferior school will be left > with kids who couldn't get into the "better" schools or kids with parents who > aren't smart enough or concerned enough to move to the "better" school. > Either way, the "inferior" school probably doesn't see improvement. > > I don't really know about the voucher stuff, but it seems like it HAS to lead > to less money for the public system and it seems like that HAS to reduce the > public schools' quality. Doesn't it? Proponents of vouchers don't think so. They think the public schools will shape up. They will have to improve (in terms of both safety and student performance) to keep students. They (the teachers, the adminis- trators) will find it in their self interest to figure out what parents want (better management, as John Dyson says). At the present time they are a virtual monopoly.... Like Micro$loth.... Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 16:11:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22104 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22090; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id SAA29538; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:11:33 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708102311.SAA29538@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708102300.QAA21657@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Aug 10, 97 04:00:46 pm" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:11:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > idea? Imagine a sloppy school that is at risk of closing, and the principal is > > "at risk." Risk is an amazing motivator (sp?). I don't think that a career > > of an administrator is nearly as important as the quality of care and education > > that children get. These school admins make a reasonable amount of money compared > > to their teacher peers, and with that additional income, comes responsibility. > > > > We get paid for responsibility and innovation, and I think that a manager of a > > school should have appropriate feedback mechanisms also. Along with the feedback > > mechanisms, the management of a school needs to be "enabled" and "empowered" (in > > the truest sense of the words.) > > touch to see that part happening...easier to give away vouchers > and run...look at the budget agreement and them look at the out > years...easier to cut and run. > Administering a school district from top down would be/is a nightmare. Empowering lower level people (principals, teachers) allows for problems to be solved more quickly and with less bureaucracy. Empowerment without risk doesn't solve the problem either, and vouchers are a (fair) way for concerned parents to give feedback. Those vouchers would be votes on a child by child basis, by those people who have the most at stake: their children. Of course, upper level administration (esp those who we vote for), are more interested in political spin and the bureaucracy in general. One solution to all problems cannot work, and a multi-district administration cannot work the individual issues. Pushing down both the authority and empowerment can allow problems to be worked at a local level. If the negative feedback mechanisms can be acted upon by the individuals at risk, then problems WILL get solved (either by the problems getting solved, or the administration will be replaced.) Note at the local level, the feedback is finer grained and has fewer lags -- more likely to solve the problem. The gross, slow, and coarse grained administrative feedback mechanisms have less chance of working (control theory-101.) John From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 16:11:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22158 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22142; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA01207; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:11:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708102239.PAA20726@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > The good thing about school vouchers is that even alot of families in poverty > > care about their kids. They can also vote with their voucher. I would think > > that the voucher would "enable" the poor folk, and not necessarily give John, this is also my perspective.... > > i dont know....regarding the tax break for college tuition, > i hear that college will raise prices by the amount of the > tax break. if that is true, wouldnt private schools raise > tuition by the amount of the voucher? > > annelise, what is your take on this aspect? Ultimately in a competitive market, you can't do this. The competition will come along and cut the prices. I saw an article recently about some colleges cutting tuition. Of course competition doesn't happen overnight and those already in the market will want to create barriers to entry--e.g., the teachers' unions will lobby for the imposition of various rules and regs (teachers must have a teacher certification, etc. etc.) to protect what they've got. Just my take. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 16:31:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23260 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23252; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id SAA29591; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:31:06 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708102331.SAA29591@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: from Annelise Anderson at "Aug 10, 97 03:53:41 pm" To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu (Annelise Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:31:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: scott@statsci.com, ac199@hwcn.org, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Scott Blachowicz wrote: > > > Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > > > But it may improve the public schools. They'd have to compete for > > > students. > > > > How do they compete if they have less money? Don't the vouchers imply less > > money for the public schools, which in turn probably implies cutbacks and no > > means to expand the curriculae? > > Most proposals involve new public funds, so the schools wouldn't get > less money (or less money per student). Ultimately there's no reason > why a voucher system should cost (overall) more than people are > currently paying in taxes plus what they pay for private tuition. > > There's also no evidence that what students learn correlates with > the amount spent per student. > Imagine the taxes that we "are" paying for those who are undereducated or are a burden on society. Seems like improving the schools by competition is a long-term strategy, and in the long-term will pay off by more productive people. (In the sense of those who fit the needed job slots better.) John From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 17:58:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27674 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27659; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12736; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16556; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:59:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:59:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > But it may improve the public schools. They'd have to compete for > students. Are enough parents smart enough and concerned enough to > pick a "good" school? (I think so.) Would the public schools be > left with the difficult children--handicapped, disruptive, whatever? > I sort of doubt it; but maybe the state then says: here's a difficult > kid, this is a $3000 kid instead of a $1500 kid. First, where I'm coming from: :) I tend to think of vouchers as a way of funding private schools, and not as a way of improving the public system. Vouchers aren't the only way to induce competition among schools. The regional rules here (if I remember them rightly ;) are that you must attend the local public schools (Catholic or public system, your choice) for one year, after which you are allowed to attend another school. I don't know if this applies to k-8. There are people who take advantage of this, but I don't think that competition is the magic bullet it is being touted as. The fact is, there are too many benefits to going to the local school to create strong competition. (Benefits such as the social ones of having friends in school who don't live far far away, or shorter transportation (I spend ~hour on the bus both ways to get to school, and if you think that doesn't suck, you are wrong :). > It doesn't have to erode; it can be set by formula, related to how > much the state budget per child is, or something like that. Of > course, what you get from the legislature isn't always what you > ask for. Phff. Formulas can be changed. There will be pressure to erode the voucher credit. As soon as parents no longer have children attending school, they will put on political pressure to lower the voucher (thus lowering their taxes). When the voucher is lowered, this will be much much harder on the poorer parents than the rich ones (who will be mostly unaffected, since the increase in the $$ they suplement the voucher by will roughly correspond to their tax break). I want to see those sending their children to a rich expensive private school paying twice because I don't want to see two systems, one for those with money, and one for those without. This is the same reason you can't setup a private medical clinic in most provinces. As soon as a segment of the population loses the incentive to maintain the public system, it will degrade proportionately. [Actually, this is not necessarily true. Financially penalizing those attending a private school for religious reasons has the tendency of ensuring that only those who really want to be there are there - but that's a question of wether or not to accept funding, not wether or not it should be offered] [Hm. It sounds like an awful lot more people use private schools in the US than here. Its politically unwise for politicians to use a private school, for example]. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 20:34:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA05795 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05790 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id XAA04779; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:34:36 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:34:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110334.XAA04779@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: sef@Kithrup.COM CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708101740.KAA17289@kithrup.com> (message from Sean Eric Fagan on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:40:59 -0700) Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: If you can distinguish between good and bad advice, you don't need advice. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Variardic macros and 'inline' are also going to be in the next ANSI C standard. About time to standardize `inline'; I've been using it in my portable code for a while. (OTOH, I rely on autoconf to do `#define inline' on compilers that don't support it.) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 21:48:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA10689 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10684 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id AAA06504; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:48:01 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:48:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110448.AAA06504@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: perhaps@yes.no CC: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708101208.OAA04516@bitbox.follo.net> (message from Eivind Eklund on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:08:33 +0200 (CEST)) Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I was actually tossing up whether to setup an IPv6 tunnel network between > > local Perth ISPs, then linking the "network" to somewhere in the eastern > > states. Anyone else on here game? Even an IPIP tunnel with our own network > > would be really funky. > Any reason to go for these instead of PPP over TCP/IP, which we > already have support for? PPP over TCP over SSH, and you have a VPN > there and then. (Well, perhaps you'd want to add name-resolving...) Sorry, what's VPN? > The process of booting a separate Usenet has started. Perhaps it is > the time for a new Internet? :-) I thought that was already in the works, something that's more chartered to educational purposes than commercial. (Ah, back when the first domain you thought of ended in .edu... I remember...) But what separate Usenet? -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 21:51:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA10869 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10858; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id AAA06520; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:50:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:50:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110450.AAA06520@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: toor@dyson.iquest.net CC: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708102311.SAA29538@dyson.iquest.net> (toor@dyson.iquest.net) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Those vouchers would be votes on a child by child basis, by those > people who have the most at stake: their children. This, of course, assumes that the parents make educated votes... like actually study the issues at hand instead of reading the headlines and taking them as gospel. -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 22:08:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA11862 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA11855 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA06614; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:07:42 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:07:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110507.BAA06614@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: sef@kithrup.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708101845.LAA21530@kithrup.com> (message from Sean Eric Fagan on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:45:58 -0700) Subject: Re: variable sized arrays and gcc From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> The feature will now make it into the next ANSI C version. (Along with a >>> bunch of stuff that is *WRONG* and *EVIL*. But this particular feature I >>> happen to like.) >> Like what? > The one I particularly hate, which distresses me greatly, is the C++-ish > ability to declare a variable anywhere. E.g., Okay, why is this a lose? Remember that computer languages must be readable by humans to win; the ability to declare variables where they are used means a more readable, ergo more maintainable, language. > It's not as if any existing code truly uses this -- It wasn't that long ago that all existing code used K&R declarations. Were you out on your soapbox at the proposal of ANSI declarations, saying that no existing code used them? > It adds very little to the language, except > for an ability to have even more badly written code, Why is this badly written code? Because of the portability issue? If you are targeting a single compiler, then portability isn't an issue. If you aren't, then ignore the feature, and wait for other compiler vendors to catch on. > and will make some compilers a bit harder to write (but that's > balanced by making others a bit easier to write). The requirement to declare variables at the top of a function is an anachronism from when the stack had to be manipulated in a particular manner. In this day and age of modern register manipulation and dynamic variable allocation, your preferred rule is an ugly requirement that means that declarations cannot appear near where they are used, and decreases the readability-- hence maintainability-- of the code. GCC defines a language which is a superset of C. It has some features that make writing programs nicer and easier. I prefer the language that GCC defines to the one that the ANSI committee defined. It is a more readable, more flexible, language. Happy hacking, joelh -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 22:18:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA12402 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA12395; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA22105; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:18:44 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:19:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708102159.OAA18118@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > from what i have heard the california and texas school boards > buy so many school books that publishers write for those two > markets and let everyone else select whichever one of he two > they prefer ;) I was off working on an academic project, but I want to get a comment in on that. The big publishers don't sell schoolbooks to you, they sell them to the school districts. That idea that they can't specialize, because their market was too big, was something I believed too, until I had to do some software for the printing industry. I found (to my shock) that it isn't anywhere near that way. I have been told by a schoolbook editor that some of the compromises they are forced to make, to sell to some markets, are fairly repugnant to them, but a buck is a buck ... I don't trust state school boards as far as I can throw them, but making the decision local magnifies that problem. I have met too many biased folks, I guess. There are a lot of them. Many are biased in a way you don't think of, those who can't allow the disciplining of troublemakers, because it isn't "fair". This is the cause of many school problems, just as many as the more popular idea of what prejudice is, that of race/creed/color. The best idea I've found is to put the decisions at the highest possible level, so it has the greatest publicity. It's a horrible method, but I don't see a better one. School vouchers push this decision level to it's lowest level, and makes for less visibility of abuse. Trust White parents? Look, I'm white, but I've seen that prejudice is a pretty equal opportunity employer. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 22:25:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA12703 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12697 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id BAA21074; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id BAA18507; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:25:10 -0400 (EDT) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:48:01 EDT." <199708110448.AAA06504@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:25:10 -0400 Message-ID: <18505.871277110@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote in message ID <199708110448.AAA06504@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>: > Sorry, what's VPN? Virtual Private Network Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 22:58:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA14266 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14251; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA08994; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:57:41 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:57:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110557.BAA08994@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG CC: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708102239.PAA20726@hub.freebsd.org> (jmb@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Among economists, the real world is often a special case. --Horngren Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk i dont know....regarding the tax break for college tuition, i hear that college will raise prices by the amount of the tax break. if that is true, wouldnt private schools raise tuition by the amount of the voucher? I doubt it. I think that the private high school I attend likely continue raising tutition by about $500 each year (it's $8000 last time I checked), but I think that tuition might go down for a few years if vouchers became available. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 10 23:33:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA15855 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15849; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id CAA09169; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:32:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:32:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110632.CAA09169@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu CC: chuckr@glue.umd.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Annelise Anderson on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:37:05 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: If at first you don't succeed, you probably didn't really care anyway. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And I'm not sure that white parents want to bring up prejudiced children who have to live in an increasingly racially diverse environment. My white parents certainly haven't wanted to bring up prejudiced children. But textbooks have not influenced my prejudices. Getting to know a few people well is what causes me to not be prejudiced against that race. Through the middle of my third grade year, I lived in Waterford, CT. (Interestingly, one man who lived in Waterford was recently not hired by the New London police department because his IQ was too high, and it made the newspaper here in Hawaii.) I think there were about 28 kids at my grade level at Oswegatchie Elementary; for the first few years I think all of us were white. (It happens that we were divided into two classes.) Later, a black family moved into a house on the same street as me; one of the four kids in that family was in my grade. That's the only black family I've ever come close to knowing in any personal sense where both parents were around. Two other black families that I come remotely close to knowing don't have the father around. And I think that I've always subconciously looked at this statistic and concluded that blacks have trouble having stable families. Of course that's totally irrational; most other races seem to have similar problems. The two Chinese friends I have at school who are capable computer programmers both live iwth only one parent; one Chinese girl I like a lot doesn't live with either of her biological parents. (Note that the statistics I just presented, if looked at rationally, would suggest that blacks have more stable families than Chinese.) (Also note that such statistics are probably ridiculous anyway, because I haven't sampled a large enough population.) Anyway, the point is that I have many Chinese friends, because I live in Hawaii, and there are lots of Chinese people around here. And because I've had the opportunity to get to know some of them, I don't have any prejudice against Chinese. I do recognize certain differences between the European and Asian cultures (Asians tend to be rather quiet, and don't like arguing forcefully; Europeans have nothing against yelling in an arguement; and Asians generally value respect above honesty, where Europeans would rather be honesty even if it means hurting another person). I recognize that these differences exist, but I don't consider one culture superior to the other. I've also noted that I've often wished that I were Chinese. Not that any of my Chinese friends object to me being German. Hawaii is a wonderful place in that different races respect each other and get along well. (In fact, I sometimes find that the whites dislike me more than the Asians.) But it has caused me to understand a little bit better how I would react if my race was actively hated. Anyway, I currently think that I would like to marry a Chinese girl, and have kids, and live in Boston. And I've sometimes wondered if that would really be a good idea. If kids are of mixed race in Hawaii, that's perfectly normal; but it's kinda wierd on the mainland. And I think it's probably safe to assume that if I live in Boston, my kids would probably have an easier time if they're pure white than if they're half Chinese. But I guess it doesn't bother me that much. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 00:18:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18176 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA18169; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13006; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708110718.AAA13006@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:32:36 EDT." <199708110632.CAA09169@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:18:03 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The most important thing with respect to race issues is for people to voice their opinions whether they are prejudice or not is not relevant. Oh, and with respect to marriage , marry to love and not to a political / cultural system -- just remember who lives home 8) Our bloodlines transcends political/cultural du-jour systems. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 00:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18883 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA18872 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id BAA05744; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:33:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:33:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708110733.BAA05744@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Peter David Roehsler CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX World Online In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dave Hummel wrote: > UNIX World Online has a really bad Windows NT add on it. What's going on > here? > http://www.wcmh.com/uworld/ Peter David Roehsler replied: % Wonder what the web server is running??......:) It's an alias for 'www.lantimes.com'. I couldn't discover the OS in a minute of hacking, but the webserver is Netscape-Enterprise/2.01 so at the very least they haven't gone COMPLETELY over to the dark side. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 01:58:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA22646 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA22640; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id EAA11563; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:58:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:58:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110858.EAA11563@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG CC: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708102137.OAA16731@hub.freebsd.org> (jmb@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Paranoia: A healthy understanding of the nature of the universe. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk inner city schools are so dangerous for at least two reasons: the students that attend those schools the low level of funding per student many rural schools have only the funding problem, but are still "poor" schools due the way we have each school district self-fund through local property taxes rather than state-wide. Hawaii does have a state-wide public school system, and it's widely percieved as inadaquate. Hawaii also has many more private schools than the mainland. vouchers pay people to segregate themselves from the rest of the community increasing the factionalism that we suffer from today. I'm not sure that I agree with this. I lived for two and a half years in an area of San Diego called Rancho Penasquitos. It's a relatively affluent area; the house I lived in was four bedroom, three bathroom, three car garage house. One reason many people choose to live there is the good public school system. (Poway Unified School District is percieved as the good area; for various hysterical raisins it includes two communities that are a part of San Diego, as well as a seprate town called Poway.) I think that the poorest people who atttend Iolani School (on scholarships) are likely poorer than the poorest who attend Sunset Hills Elementary. (Most of my friends seem to be on scholarships, despite the fact that supposedly most people in the school aren't.) So it seems to me that where we have a competitive education system, different social classes will intermix more. Because with the current system, affluent people can buy homes in the more expensive areas, and thus get into the rich districts. for the ills that compulsory military service entails, one benefit is to create a common experience shared by a large number of the adult population. an experience that can serve to unify the citizenry (provided its not abused, as it was during the vietnam war) That is bullshit. My understanding is that if you went to college, you could delay getting into the war. And if you didn't get in the war in your first year of elibility for the draft, you likely wouldn't, because IIRC they would take every 18 year old they could before they strated looking at the 19 year olds. So if you got a deferment, you'd likely be way down the list by the time you were in the pool to be drafted again. And in general, the affluent are more likely to go to college. Anyway, I don't intend to go to college, but I am sure that I would try to find some way to avoid going into the military if there is a draft in the next few years (I'm 17 now). I think that making a career of killing people is just plain wrong. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 02:43:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24363 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24345; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13885; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708110943.CAA13885@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:58:09 EDT." <199708110858.EAA11563@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:43:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > inner city schools are so dangerous for at least two reasons: > the students that attend those schools Well, thats true however you have to consider that students go to schools with the object of accomplishing their dreams in a society that welcomes them. It is a different story for those who believe that not matter what they do they will never be able to be part of society,i.e., their spiritua/moral backbone is broken. The naive or the oppressor loves to say : look they don't want to integrate!! I just laugh 8) > the low level of funding per student I was poor and I made it. The secret is to believe on yourself and to have the will to follow your dreams . Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 02:52:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24673 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24655; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id FAA12121; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 05:51:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 05:51:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110951.FAA12121@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu CC: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Annelise Anderson on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:57:03 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. --J. Lennon Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (The Constitutional question of separation of church and state is pretty much taken care of by giving the vouchers to the parents and not directly to the schools, although some people still consider it unconstitutional.) My understanding is that the Constiution doesn't actually demand a seperation of church and state; it's just htat some liberals would like you to believe that. Furthurmore, I think that the original arguement was that we wanted to prevent the government from affecting the churches, not hte otherway around. The argument against vouchers from the libertarian perspective is that it will lead to more government control of private schools, and in fact all schools will be subject to the same rules & regs that hamper public schools. That may be true. IIRC Consumers' Union, which publishes the magazine Consumer Reports, was able to get a grant from the government to produce an education TV show, but I think they ended up turning it down, because it would have restricted their ability to lobby the government for safety improvements that they consider necissary, etc. (It was within the last year or two; I don't know if I'm getting the facts exactly straight.) The League for Programming Freedom is a non-profit organization, in the sense that I belive donataions to them are tax-deducable. A new organziation that some of hte LPF people are involved in forming (as well as others not involved in LPF) is called Union for the Public Domain; I don't think that your donations to UPD are going to be tax-deductable, because they want to be able to send lobbyists to congress etc. I like the school voucher approach better than increasing the personal exemption, because it provides choice at all income levels. I think we could do better though. Becasue I think that some schools will be too expensive for people. OTOH, maybe if the expensive schools charge rich students extra, and don't charge poor students anything beyond the voucher, we might not have problems. I'd be wary of the approah though; it will likely lead to more government regulation. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 02:53:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24730 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [193.117.77.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24725 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA01542; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:50:18 +0100 (BST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00403; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:55:40 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <19970811105540.52314@strand.iii.co.uk> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:55:40 +0100 From: nik@iii.co.uk To: Marco Molteni Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: ; from Marco Molteni on Sat, Aug 09, 1997 at 02:55:12PM +0200 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 09, 1997 at 02:55:12PM +0200, Marco Molteni wrote: > In quest of a way to drastically limit the amount of various-shaped > pieces of papers floating around my desk, folders and briefcase [1] > when I need to jot down or to retrieve (!) something (eg University notes, > memorandum, URLs, ...), I found the Apple Newton MessagePad, which seems > pretty cool: > > 1. LCD display sufficiently wide > 2. interfaceable to a PC > 3. handwritten recognition > 4. real keyboard > > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? I've had a Newton 130 for a little over a year. It's great for the things I use it for. Specifically; - Diary - Contacts - Flat file database - Money management The only problems I have with it are a) You have to shell out cash to get the programming environment. I'd prefer Apple to offer a bare bones environment for the hobbyist for free b) It's a bit too slow for instant use. Looking stuff up takes an appreciable amount of time. This is a pain if you're checking out what's happening on a particular day with a customer who's hanging on the telephone. The Newton 2000 solves the speed problem. Sadly, I can't afford one yet. When I (finally) get my own FreeBSD home box I'm going to spend some time working on a Newton DB for typically 'Unixy' information. I envisage being able to wander around the office inspecting the various bits of hardware on the network and scrawling (literally) the information into a DB on the Newt. I should then be able to come back to my desk, hook it up to my Unix box and run some scripts to produce things like named maps and other host tables, web pages that outline what's where, /etc/aliases and so on and so forth. At the moment though, it's just a pipe dream, :-( N -- --+==[ Nik Clayton is Just Another Perl Hacker at Interactive Investor ]==+-- "The good guys dress in black. Remember that." NC5-RIPE From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 02:56:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24811 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24805; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id FAA12145; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 05:55:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 05:55:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199708110955.FAA12145@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu CC: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Chuck Robey on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:55:08 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Among economists, the real world is often a special case. --Horngren Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Annelise, tho only thing that scares me about the school voucher thing is the terrible fact of prejudice. You're in academia somewhat, aren't you? I don't know if you have the visibility to the politics that editors and publishers of school texts have to wade thru. It makes it hard to produce books that actually teach something, because local school boards are very often more interested in pursuing local prejudices. At the state level, this is absolutely endemic. I consider this really hamful. I like to think of myself as being egalitarian. While no one is free of prejudice, I try, and school vouchers (it seems to me) allow this kind of abuse without any limitation. OTOH, I think that it also would open the possiblity that if you're a concerned parent, you might have an easier time finding a book that you like. Personally, I find it ridiculous that most of what I've studied in history seems to be about which group went to war with which other group. Very little seems to involve individual people, unless those people are in some way famous. OTOH, I find some computer history quite fasinating. I'd love to be able to spend a few hours using and learning about ITS, for example. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 03:10:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA25352 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 03:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA25343; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 03:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id GAA12197; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 06:09:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 06:09:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199708111009.GAA12197@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: hoek@hwcn.org CC: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:59:00 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Among economists, the real world is often a special case. --Horngren Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Benefits such as the social ones of having friends in school who don't live far far away, or shorter transportation (I spend ~hour on the bus both ways to get to school, and if you think that doesn't suck, you are wrong :). I've certainly seen the annoyance of spending an hour in a car every day, and of not living near my friends. OTOH, most of my friends are above-average IQ, since it's somewhat tough to get in to the school I attend (I was the top student in the sixth grade class the year I went to a public school in Hawaii, and I didn't work hard at all; last year I got an A in phsycis and Bs and maybe some Cs in other classes; I don't even remember exactly what grades I got. And I do work hard, at least part of the time.) And there's the benefit of meeting a wider variety of people, in terms of economics and race. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 03:31:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA26329 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 03:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA26322; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 03:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id GAA12283; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 06:31:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 06:31:03 -0400 Message-Id: <199708111031.GAA12283@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com CC: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708110943.CAA13885@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio Hasty on Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:43:06 -0700) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: You may have mail. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > inner city schools are so dangerous for at least two reasons: > the students that attend those schools Note that I think jmb wrote the above. Well, thats true however you have to consider that students go to schools with the object of accomplishing their dreams in a society that welcomes them. It is a different story for those who believe that not matter what they do they will never be able to be part of society,i.e., their spiritua/moral backbone is broken. The naive or the oppressor loves to say : look they don't want to integrate!! I just laugh 8) > the low level of funding per student I think he also wrote this. I was poor and I made it. The secret is to believe on yourself and to have the will to follow your dreams . Amancio In short, you attribted it to me, but I didn't write it. Note that part of the confusion is because I'm using an indentation of 3 characters to cite quoted text; jmb indents with a tab for his whole message... From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 05:09:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA29534 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 05:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (eivind@bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA29529 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 05:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA09531; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:07:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:07:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199708111207.OAA09531@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: perhaps@yes.no, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Joel Ray Holveck's message of Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:48:01 -0400 Subject: Re: uunet vs. internet References: <199708101208.OAA04516@bitbox.follo.net> <199708110448.AAA06504@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > I was actually tossing up whether to setup an IPv6 tunnel network between > > > local Perth ISPs, then linking the "network" to somewhere in the eastern > > > states. Anyone else on here game? Even an IPIP tunnel with our own network > > > would be really funky. > > Any reason to go for these instead of PPP over TCP/IP, which we > > already have support for? PPP over TCP over SSH, and you have a VPN > > there and then. (Well, perhaps you'd want to add name-resolving...) > > Sorry, what's VPN? Virtual Private Network - a network running through tunnels over the Internet, but not publically accessible; ie, the users are authenticated before they get access. > But what separate Usenet? A private one that is being booted presently; more info will be available if the effort turns out to actually escalate enough to be reasonable to inform about (and the authentication problem is properly solved) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 07:13:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05310 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 07:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA05300; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 07:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708111413.KAA16436@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:14:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Annelise Anderson cc: Scott Blachowicz , ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > There's also no evidence that what students learn correlates with > the amount spent per student. Please share whatever it is you're smoking. School systems in most states are paid for by local property taxes. In wealthy suburbs property values are higher, and owners pay a smaller percentage, yet generate more revenue than their poor urban counterparts. They avg > 8k/yr/student, with the richest being one of the Chicago suburbs with 18k/yr/student. Inner-city and rural scools are lucky to see 5k/yr/student. While money is not the only factor, it's a huge one. The suburban schools have nice clean well lit environments in which to learn, with broad curriculea, and many extra-curricular activities. Inner-city and rural schools are lucky to have school buildings without holes in the roof and walls. My wife is a professional educator, who brings home this stuff, and I read it mostly to not be reading something computer related. The educators will tell you that while money isn't the only factor in a student's ability to learn and succeed, it's a large one. Your politicians are the one's claiming that the school's available funds don't make a difference. You go to a school where the textbooks are 2 years out of date, and in short supply, a library that is mostly non-existant, understaffed, and has no purchasing power because textbooks are a priority, a building that's over 50 years old, in need of repair, with no available funds for that either, and underpaid teachers (who tend to be the worst the educational system has to offer, since the better teachers in general go to schools where they don't have the limitations, and safety concerns these schools present, and make more), and we'll see how well you do. Don't ever claim money makes no difference. You're either lying or naive. In the world we live in, money always makes a difference. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 08:24:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA09622 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09608; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00406; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:23:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708110951.FAA12121@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > The League for Programming Freedom is a non-profit organization, > in the sense that I belive donataions to them are tax-deducable. Tch. Lobbying power is only one of the many costs of gov't money. Based on what has happened to the Catholic system here, and to other ex-religious schools which tried to comprimise, the gov't will restrict your ability to screen teachers based on religion. Curriculum choices decrease. Policy. Etc. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 08:50:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11413 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod8.logic.it [195.120.151.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11336 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 877 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Aug 1997 15:49:26 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:49:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: Albert Llanes cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: A short UNIX history. (WAS: Why FreeBSD over Linux?) In-Reply-To: <33EEAB00.564C@technologist.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Albert Llanes wrote: > Why should I use FreeBSD over Linux? You shouldn't. Ever heard of DOS ? ;-) > Which was first, FreeBSD or Linux? Once upon a time (around the sixties), there were MIT, Bell Labs and General Electric; they dreamed of MULTICS. Then MULTICS fizzled and Bell Labs gave up the project. One day at Bell Labs Ken Thompson saw a dusty DEC PDP-7 and said: "let's write an OS in assembly". Brian Kernighan saw the dust around the room and said: "Ken, call it UNICS". UNIX was born. It was the epoch. Shortly after Dennis Ritchie joined the effort. Obviously UNIX wasn't enough for Thompson, so he invented a high-level language, B, to rewrite the OS; but B failed. So Ritchie said: "hey, Ken, try my language! I'll call it C" (Yes, then come Stroustrup and C++, but this is another tale ;-) So Thompson and Ritchie rewrote UNIX in C. After AT&T, the parent of Bell Labs, licenced the UNIX source to universities for a small fee. And now comes into play the University of California at Berkley. Partly funded by DARPA (Defence Advanced Research Project Agency), Berkley gave birth to 1BSD (First Berkley Software Distribution). Later BSD releases introduced virtual memory, paging, a new file system and networking, namely TCP/IP. Ah, yes, I forgot vi! The rest is recent history. ;-) Marco From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 09:05:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12426 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA12416; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA29314; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:03:53 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:04:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Jamie Bowden cc: Annelise Anderson , Scott Blachowicz , ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708111413.KAA16436@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: Jamie, that wasn't an adult thing to do. If you feel you have to insult someone, please go use usenet. This has been an interesting discussion so far, but your invective doesn't encourage discussion, just hurt feelings. > On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > There's also no evidence that what students learn correlates with > > the amount spent per student. > > Please share whatever it is you're smoking. School systems in most states > are paid for by local property taxes. In wealthy suburbs property values > are higher, and owners pay a smaller percentage, yet generate more revenue > than their poor urban counterparts. They avg > 8k/yr/student, with the > richest being one of the Chicago suburbs with 18k/yr/student. Inner-city > and rural scools are lucky to see 5k/yr/student. While money is not the > only factor, it's a huge one. The suburban schools have nice clean well > lit environments in which to learn, with broad curriculea, and many > extra-curricular activities. Inner-city and rural schools are lucky to > have school buildings without holes in the roof and walls. My wife is a > professional educator, who brings home this stuff, and I read it mostly to > not be reading something computer related. The educators will tell you > that while money isn't the only factor in a student's ability to learn and > succeed, it's a large one. Your politicians are the one's claiming that > the school's available funds don't make a difference. You go to a school > where the textbooks are 2 years out of date, and in short supply, a > library that is mostly non-existant, understaffed, and has no purchasing > power because textbooks are a priority, a building that's over 50 years > old, in need of repair, with no available funds for that either, and > underpaid teachers (who tend to be the worst the educational system has to > offer, since the better teachers in general go to schools where they don't > have the limitations, and safety concerns these schools present, and make > more), and we'll see how well you do. Don't ever claim money makes no > difference. You're either lying or naive. In the world we live in, money > always makes a difference. > > Jamie Bowden > > System Administrator, iTRiBE.net > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 09:18:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13273 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13265; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00620; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:18:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:18:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708111618.KAA00620@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Joel N. Weber II" Cc: jmb@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708110951.FAA12121@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> References: <199708110951.FAA12121@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II writes: > (The > Constitutional question of separation of church and state is pretty > much taken care of by giving the vouchers to the parents and not > directly to the schools, although some people still consider it > unconstitutional.) > > My understanding is that the Constiution doesn't actually demand > a seperation of church and state; it's just htat some liberals would > like you to believe that. The 'separatation of church and state' that is touted by some many folks is simply the fact that the 'state' can *NOT* show any favortism to any one 'church/religion'. It doesn't mean that the religion is inherently bad, or that any religious symbols must be barred, or that we should ignore the fact that for most people religion is an important part of their life. IMHO, ignoring and even being antagonistic to church/religion was not the original intention of the statement. The original founder's of this nation where here because of religious persecution. The religion they practiced was not the 'official' religion of the state, and so were driven out. Their religion was *very* important to them, but didn't want the same sort of events to occur in their new country. Unfortunately, the 'separation of church/state' has become more of an issue of 'not allowing anything religious', instead of what I believe to be the original intent of 'not encouraging a specific religion'. > Furthurmore, I think that the original arguement was that we wanted > to prevent the government from affecting the churches, not hte otherway > around. You hit the nail on the head. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 09:38:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14635 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14625; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00538; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:37:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:37:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708110632.CAA09169@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > But textbooks have not influenced my prejudices. Getting to know a > few people well is what causes me to not be prejudiced against that > race. Hehe. They haven't influenced your prejudices in ways that you are aware. > family was in my grade. That's the only black family I've ever > come close to knowing in any personal sense where both parents were > around. Two other black families that I come remotely close to > knowing don't have the father around. Hm. Come to think of it, the one black person who was in my class back in grade school had only one parent. I never thought of it in relation to her being black until you mentioned the above. Actually, that was a slightly dysfunctional class altogether. :) We started with at least 24 kids and by graduation had scared all but 6 of them away, +1 who joined in the last year. > And I think that I've always subconciously looked at this statistic > and concluded that blacks have trouble having stable families. "not being prejudiced" != "not believing blacks rarely have stable families" Native Americans are much more likely to be drunkards than the rest of the population. Does acknowleding this make me prejudiced? Well, you'd have an awfully tough time convincing me that it does. > even if it means hurting another person). I recognize that these > differences exist, but I don't consider one culture superior to the > other. Mostly cultural differences, of course. One culture may well have advantages that another doesn't have, though, which, of course, means that one will be superior in certain circumstances. Consider how Asian countries save lots of money on social security by keeping very strong families which take the burden of caring for the old. However, I've always suspected the Italian tendency to insist of standing _right_ in front of you when talking is genetic. :-) :-) Prejudices are tricky things. Those of African origin make better runners. Chinese make better ping-pong (aka. "table tennis") players. Canadians make better hockey players. All these things happen to be genetically based, but I don't think that makes a difference. Inter-racial differences may result from cultural or genetic reasons, but you should react the same to them, either way. Suppose you had to pick a programmer from two choices, one male, one female. Knowing nothing else about them, which would you choose? How about languages. My last French language class had 5 males, and more than twice that number in females. This is fairly representative. If I had to pick someone to know multiple languages, knowing nothing else, you can bet quite accurately from which gender I would select. You are racially prejudiced when you judge only on the basis of race. Tell me that there is a young native, and ask me if it is more or less likely that they have a drinking problem. Now tell me that they don't live on a rez in Northern Ontario. You'll get a totally different answer! You are racially prejudiced if you lose a key element of "respect", or if you ignore non-racial factors. > Anyway, I currently think that I would like to marry a Chinese > girl, and have kids, and live in Boston. And I've sometimes Personally, I've always thought that the average Oriental chick is sexier than the average non-Oriental one, but maybe I just spend too much time staring at a computer screen. :-) > wierd on the mainland. And I think it's probably safe to assume > that if I live in Boston, my kids would probably have an easier > time if they're pure white than if they're half Chinese. But > I guess it doesn't bother me that much. Boston is a world away, but around here, at least, most people wouldn't really care if someone is half Chinese. [where "here", of course, equals Southern .on.ca] -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 09:57:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15693 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15650; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708111656.MAA17110@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:56:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Chuck Robey cc: Annelise Anderson , Scott Blachowicz , ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hurt feelings? Not really, I was just pointing out that anyone who believes money is irrelevant is living in a vacuum, and has no grasp on the realities of the world we live in. I am quite sure we would all love to live in a utopian world where there are no monetary limitations, but it's a pipe dream. On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > Jamie, that wasn't an adult thing to do. If you feel you have to insult > someone, please go use usenet. This has been an interesting discussion so > far, but your invective doesn't encourage discussion, just hurt feelings. > > > On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > > > There's also no evidence that what students learn correlates with > > > the amount spent per student. > > > > Please share whatever it is you're smoking. School systems in most states > > are paid for by local property taxes. In wealthy suburbs property values > > are higher, and owners pay a smaller percentage, yet generate more revenue > > than their poor urban counterparts. They avg > 8k/yr/student, with the > > richest being one of the Chicago suburbs with 18k/yr/student. Inner-city > > and rural scools are lucky to see 5k/yr/student. While money is not the > > only factor, it's a huge one. The suburban schools have nice clean well > > lit environments in which to learn, with broad curriculea, and many > > extra-curricular activities. Inner-city and rural schools are lucky to > > have school buildings without holes in the roof and walls. My wife is a > > professional educator, who brings home this stuff, and I read it mostly to > > not be reading something computer related. The educators will tell you > > that while money isn't the only factor in a student's ability to learn and > > succeed, it's a large one. Your politicians are the one's claiming that > > the school's available funds don't make a difference. You go to a school > > where the textbooks are 2 years out of date, and in short supply, a > > library that is mostly non-existant, understaffed, and has no purchasing > > power because textbooks are a priority, a building that's over 50 years > > old, in need of repair, with no available funds for that either, and > > underpaid teachers (who tend to be the worst the educational system has to > > offer, since the better teachers in general go to schools where they don't > > have the limitations, and safety concerns these schools present, and make > > more), and we'll see how well you do. Don't ever claim money makes no > > difference. You're either lying or naive. In the world we live in, money > > always makes a difference. > > > > Jamie Bowden > > > > System Administrator, iTRiBE.net > > > > > > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD > (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 10:10:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16741 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16731; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1555.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA00588; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:08:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Jamie Bowden cc: Chuck Robey , Annelise Anderson , Scott Blachowicz , ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708111656.MAA17110@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Hurt feelings? Not really, I was just pointing out that anyone who > believes money is irrelevant is living in a vacuum, and has no grasp on > the realities of the world we live in. I am quite sure we would all love > to live in a utopian world where there are no monetary limitations, but > it's a pipe dream. I think the spirit of Annelise's comment was that throwing money at an education system does not make it better. Obviously a school cannot run without money, but, that said, I can point to schools that do a much better job with less money than other schools with more money. There are schools which (desparately?) need more money, but there are some which probably have more than they need. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 10:47:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18887 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliffy.statsci.com (root@cliffy.statsci.com [206.63.206.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18877; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knife.statsci.com (knife [206.63.206.137]) by cliffy.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Hub) with ESMTP id KAA11515; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:47:01 -0700 Received: from knife.statsci.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knife.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/UUCP) with ESMTP id KAA17464; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708111746.KAA17464@knife.statsci.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: Jamie Bowden , Chuck Robey , Annelise Anderson , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations References: In-reply-to: From: Scott Blachowicz Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:46:59 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > There are schools which (desparately?) need more money, but there > are some which probably have more than they need. Possibly...but I doubt you're going to find many schools that will give up their funding without a fight. But back to the overall funding levels - it seems like a voucher system would necessarily take money away from the public schools. Now, it's possible (as Annelise mentions) that it comes from new public funding, but that means that either people's taxes (in general) get increased or the money gets shuffled from some other location. I wouldn't think that either of those funding methods is likely to be popular and/or provide enough money. Also, I don't know how the public schools are typically funded...does all of their money come from the per-student formula? I would think that a LOT of their expenses (e.g. facilities improvements) would suffer if that's the case and the attendance starts declining. John S. Dyson wrote: > This is one place where the competition aspect comes into play. I could > imagine where a school goes below critical mass -- administration/teachers > go away, and then the school is reconstituted in a year or so. That would > have the advantage of disrupting disfunctional behaviors (both by school > administration, and student culture.) I have trouble seeing how the school gets "reconstituted" - where are the incentive and funding to do that if everyone's gone away to the private schools? Oh well...maybe I'm just missing something (or lucky) - I've always been in the public school system (graduated high school in the early 80's) and never had any problems (always been either in suburbia or a college town, though). And my Mom, the left wing wacko, probably had SOME influence on me, too..:-)). Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 10:52:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19264 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19255; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id NAA18024; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:52:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:52:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199708111752.NAA18024@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708110951.FAA12121@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> (devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> (The Constitutional question of separation of church and state is >> pretty much taken care of by giving the vouchers to the parents and >> not directly to the schools, although some people still consider it >> unconstitutional.) > My understanding is that the Constiution doesn't actually demand > a seperation of church and state; it's just htat some liberals would > like you to believe that. Whether it is formally in the laws or not, it is a fundamental principle on which our nation is founded. > Furthurmore, I think that the original arguement was that we wanted > to prevent the government from affecting the churches, not hte otherway > around. Remember the Holy Roman Empire? Or the pre-Luther Catholic Church? The idea is decentralization of power, no matter which power that may be. Cheers, joelh -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 11:01:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19640 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goodall1.u.washington.edu (pharaoh@goodall1.u.washington.edu [140.142.12.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19632 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (pharaoh@localhost) by goodall1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.06) with SMTP id LAA26956; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:01:20 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:01:20 -0700 (PDT) From: E Lakin To: nik@iii.co.uk cc: Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad In-Reply-To: <19970811105540.52314@strand.iii.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 nik@iii.co.uk wrote: ? The only problems I have with it are ? ? a) You have to shell out cash to get the programming environment. I'd ? prefer Apple to offer a bare bones environment for the hobbyist for ? free actually, NTK (the newton toolkit) was just recently made free. you can download it at http://www.newton.apple.com/dev/. Both a windows & macOS version are available (no freebsd tho ;). --eric lakin From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 11:03:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19731 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rush.aero.org (rush.aero.org [130.221.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19725 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by rush.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19902 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by anpiel.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00954 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708111803.LAA00954@anpiel.aero.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:55:40 PDT." <19970811105540.52314@strand.iii.co.uk> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:03:14 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a MessagePad 2000 and I love it. I think that the high-end Newtons and the PalmPilot have mildly overlapping markets, but both have large areas where the other doesn't compete. The 2K is really a full-fledged computer with a weird operational style. It's not a notebook and it doesn't do what a Notebook would do, but it can compute with the best of them. It serves me well as a general engine that I can carry around easily, and it also does me as a nice-sized notepad. It does everything for me that a PalmPilot would, though it does it mildly less gracefully and with a much larger form factor. But, for instance, it also has all sorts of other packages available for it, including one special-purpose number for data collection on geysers, a favorite subject of mine. The PalmPilot's job is to do a few portable things well, and be really really portable. Period. It does this brilliantly, and this is what most people prefer, so PalmPilot outsells Newton at least 10-to-1, maybe 100-to-1. I have no complaints. Well, one. Apple and their (^(*&^*(& closed architecture. They publish (binary) libraries to allow people to write applications for Windows and the Mac that interface to a Newton. However, if you're on a UNIX box, forget it. Someone's managed to reverse-engineer enough to get a package installer working under Linux but that's about it. Boy, if I had the Connection Utilities and a programming library under FreeBSD, I'd be a happy man. One more reason not to run Windows. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 13:45:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28842 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28832; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708112045.NAA28832@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708110951.FAA12121@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at Aug 11, 97 05:51:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > (The > Constitutional question of separation of church and state is pretty > much taken care of by giving the vouchers to the parents and not > directly to the schools, although some people still consider it > unconstitutional.) > > My understanding is that the Constiution doesn't actually demand > a seperation of church and state; it's just htat some liberals would > like you to believe that. "establishment of religion" clause of the Constiution. the founding fathers were liberals. read madison's notes on the consitutional convention. exerpt from the 1st Admendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" has been interpreted by the supreme court for nearely 200 yars to mean that the govt many not fund religious organizations. that one of the esential aspects of "establishment of religion" is govt funding (viz the Church of England and the tithes Irish Catholics had to pay to the Church of England) > > Furthurmore, I think that the original arguement was that we wanted > to prevent the government from affecting the churches, not hte otherway > around. not affecting....adopting ;) religious organization affect the govt extensively. blue-laws for instance. why is the federal govt closed on Christmas and St Sylvester's Day (1 january). surely the reason is rooted in religious practice > OTOH, maybe if the expensive schools charge rich students extra, > and don't charge poor students anything beyond the voucher, we > might not have problems. I'd be wary of the approah though; > it will likely lead to more government regulation. it is popular to disparage govt regulation at the present time. perhaps we should look at a few regulations: safety glass in place of plate glass in cars. the auto industry decided against this in '37. govt regualtion forced the issue. everyone pays more for cars as a result, at least till factories gear up for production and economies of scale kick in. far fewer people bleed to death in auto accidents. milk must contain milk, not chalk mixed with water. food purity laws, in general. diseased cattle can not be slaughtered adn sold to the public. seatbelts were put in cars. some gvot regulations are excessive. many are necessary, based upon previous business practices. given the choice between govt regulation and not, i'll take govt regulation. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 14:32:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01228 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homer.supersex.com (homer.supersex.com [209.5.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01208 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from leo@localhost) by homer.supersex.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) id RAA26308; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970811173141.32049@homer.supersex.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:31:41 -0400 From: Leo Papandreou To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations References: <199708110951.FAA12121@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <199708111752.NAA18024@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e In-Reply-To: <199708111752.NAA18024@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>; from Joel Ray Holveck on Mon, Aug 11, 1997 at 01:52:31PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 11, 1997 at 01:52:31PM -0400, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > >> (The Constitutional question of separation of church and state is > >> pretty much taken care of by giving the vouchers to the parents and > >> not directly to the schools, although some people still consider it > >> unconstitutional.) > > My understanding is that the Constiution doesn't actually demand > > a seperation of church and state; it's just htat some liberals would > > like you to believe that. > > Whether it is formally in the laws or not, it is a fundamental > principle on which our nation is founded. Thank god! I mean God. In college I learned to give up J.C. for J.B. If it wasn't for those straight A's I got in poker, Drinking Until You Throw Up on Your Shoes 101 and the like, my GPA would have been singu- larly unimpressive. Not proud, simply satisfied that I've lived up to the definition of education in the Devil's Dictionary: "That which discloses to the wise and disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding." I guess that makes me wise - I mean foolish. No wait, wise... foolish. Whatever; I missed the bootstrapping lecture. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 14:32:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01290 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01265; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:32:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708112132.OAA01265@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708110858.EAA11563@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at Aug 11, 97 04:58:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > I'm not sure that I agree with this. I lived for two and a half years > in an area of San Diego called Rancho Penasquitos. It's a relatively > affluent area; the house I lived in was four bedroom, three bathroom, > three car garage house. One reason many people choose to live there > is the good public school system. (Poway Unified School District > is percieved as the good area; for various hysterical raisins it > includes two communities that are a part of San Diego, as well as > a seprate town called Poway.) > > I think that the poorest people who atttend Iolani School (on scholarships) > are likely poorer than the poorest who attend Sunset Hills Elementary. > > (Most of my friends seem to be on scholarships, despite the fact that > supposedly most people in the school aren't.) > > So it seems to me that where we have a competitive education system, we do you say "competitive education system"?? were vouchers available there? could parents send their children to any school they choose? > different social classes will intermix more. Because with the current > system, affluent people can buy homes in the more expensive areas, > and thus get into the rich districts. > > for the ills that compulsory military service entails, > one benefit is to create a common experience shared by a > large number of the adult population. an experience that can > serve to unify the citizenry (provided its not abused, as it > was during the vietnam war) > > That is bullshit. My understanding is that if you went to college, > you could delay getting into the war. And if you didn't get in the > war in your first year of elibility for the draft, you likely wouldn't, > because IIRC they would take every 18 year old they could before they > strated looking at the 19 year olds. So if you got a deferment, > you'd likely be way down the list by the time you were in the pool > to be drafted again. you paragraph supports my comments regarding the vietnam war. world war 2 was different, i am less sure about korea, but i understand that college deferements were as vietnam war phemonomon(sp?). > > And in general, the affluent are more likely to go to college. > > > Anyway, I don't intend to go to college, but I am sure that I would > try to find some way to avoid going into the military if there is > a draft in the next few years (I'm 17 now). I think that > making a career of killing people is just plain wrong. yes it is. making a career out of defending yourself is not. if you dont, who do you expect will? if few enouhg people opt out, its not a severe problem, if too many people opt out, no one will be willing to defend the others. military service is a duty, not a "joy". its the cost of having a citizen army as opposed to a professional army. professional armies are dangerous, sometimes they believe that they know better than teh civilianb govt, sometimes they act upon that belief. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 14:40:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01641 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01631; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:40:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708112140.OAA01631@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chuckr@glue.umd.edu, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708110955.FAA12145@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at Aug 11, 97 05:55:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > Personally, I find it ridiculous that most of what I've studied in > history seems to be about which group went to war with which other group. > Very little seems to involve individual people, unless those people > are in some way famous. try a college history course. once you have learned the facts you are ready to start learning history. after you know calculus, you can start learning mathematics. everything before college is background material jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 15:15:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA03431 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA03422; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:15:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708112215.PAA03422@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, jmb@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199708111618.KAA00620@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Aug 11, 97 10:18:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > > Unfortunately, the 'separation of church/state' has become more of an > issue of 'not allowing anything religious', instead of what I believe to > be the original intent of 'not encouraging a specific religion'. not allowing govt to favor one religion over another or favoring the religious over the agnostic. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 15:20:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA03728 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03722; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03060; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:19:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:19:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708112219.QAA03060@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708112215.PAA03422@hub.freebsd.org> References: <199708111618.KAA00620@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199708112215.PAA03422@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Unfortunately, the 'separation of church/state' has become more of an > > issue of 'not allowing anything religious', instead of what I believe to > > be the original intent of 'not encouraging a specific religion'. > > not allowing govt to favor one religion over another > or favoring the religious over the agnostic. One could argue that the belief that there isn't a 'God/god/gods/diety/etc..' is also a religion. ;) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 15:52:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05909 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05893; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04651; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:50:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Jamie Bowden cc: Scott Blachowicz , ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708111413.KAA16436@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > There's also no evidence that what students learn correlates with > > the amount spent per student. > > Please share whatever it is you're smoking. School systems in most states > are paid for by local property taxes. In wealthy suburbs property values [...] > succeed, it's a large one. Your politicians are the one's claiming that > the school's available funds don't make a difference. You go to a school > where the textbooks are 2 years out of date, and in short supply, a > library that is mostly non-existant, understaffed, and has no purchasing > power because textbooks are a priority, a building that's over 50 years > old, in need of repair, with no available funds for that either, and > underpaid teachers (who tend to be the worst the educational system has to > offer, since the better teachers in general go to schools where they don't > have the limitations, and safety concerns these schools present, and make > more), and we'll see how well you do. Don't ever claim money makes no > difference. You're either lying or naive. In the world we live in, money > always makes a difference. > > Jamie Bowden > > System Administrator, iTRiBE.net Actually the absence of correlation between inputs and results in education is rather well established. This basic research, quite extensive, was done and published by James Coleman (in a book of which I can't recall the title) some 30 years ago. During the '70s attempts were made to beat this finding down, with little success. Some studies in the '80s tried to chip away at it again with new data. In addition to Coleman there were studies that found no correlation between student achievement and teacher/student ratio, books in the library, etc. etc. What student performance does correlate with are some variables relating to the socio-economic status of the parents. I read one report some time ago that noted that a good proxy for all the socio- economic variables was the education of the mother. Now, keep in mind that a correlation doesn't identify a causative effect. All of this is, necessarily, "social science" research; it's always a bit slippery. But it's pretty clear that spending more money isn't in itself a solution. Note also that the findings of this kind of research apply to the range of values of the variables involved in the study, with, generally, no implications for values outside those ranges. No one is saying anything about what effect $20,000 per student or $500 per student might have. Also, there are a lot of debates about the measurement of student performance or achievement, and problems in comparing results with one test with those of another. There is considerable debate about whether the (rather small number of) students who have taken advantage of school voucher programs in Milwaukee, Cleveland, and other places have done better than those who have not. Here school choice is being evaluated by comparing rather short-run student performance, and there are all sorts of possibilities for selection bias and so forth; and the question of whether the public schools have been improved by this experiment is not even asked. Recently (spring 97) in New York City, the mayor got Wall Street funding and (I think) Catholic Archdiocese support for a voucher program for 1300 students; to qualify students had to be eligible for the federal subsidized school lunch program (one measure of need) and be low achievers (or perhaps going to low-achieving schools). In any case there were 16,000 applications for this program. The students were or will be selected randomly from the 16,000 applicants (I think they can attend any private school they can get into, not only Catholic parochial schools). The funding is available for a study of the results. This sounds like a good research design.....but again, doesn't test the more basic questions of whether the competition created by a voucher program will improve the public schools. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 16:06:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06771 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.san.rr.com (san.rr.com [204.210.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06750; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.san.rr.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA00849; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708112306.QAA00849@mail.san.rr.com> Received: from dt5h1n61.san.rr.com(204.210.31.97) by mail via smap (V1.3) id tmp000725; Mon Aug 11 16:05:52 1997 From: "Studded" To: "FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org" , "FreeBSD Questions" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 16:05:28 -0800 Reply-To: "Studded" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Needed: Info on shells and script writing Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm looking for a good book on the sh shell and writing scripts with it. Even better would be some good FAQ's and such available on the net since "free" is much more in my price range nowadays. :) Alternatively, is sh "dead" in the modern Unix world? I know Perl and TCL are very popular, but I'm trying to produce some tools that will be compatible across a number of platforms, and are easily accesible/modifiable by people who are not professional system administrators. Finally, for general purposes, what is the "best" shell available, and why? I know that this topic borders on religious fervor for some people, but I'm at the point where I'm ready to pursue some intermediate/advanced learning and before I put a lot of effort into something that is never going to be the "best" I'd like some advice. Personally I'm happy with Bash for my everyday stuff, although from what I've heard it's looked down on by the purists. Thank you, Doug PS, I'm on both lists, but I'm not sure which is the more appropriate for this question. Please feel free to limit responses to whichever you feel is best. Do thou amend they face, and I'll amend my life. -Shakespeare, "Henry V" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 16:45:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08474 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wowbagger.devry.ca (wowbagger.devry.ca [199.185.96.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA08462 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smaug.devry.ca (smaug.devry.ca [199.185.96.36]) by wowbagger.devry.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08868 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:44:53 -0600 Received: from SMAUG/SpoolDir by smaug.devry.ca (Mercury 1.21); 11 Aug 97 17:48:54 -0700 Received: from SpoolDir by SMAUG (Mercury 1.30); 11 Aug 97 17:47:19 -0700 Received: from smaug.devry.ca by smaug.devry.ca (Mercury 1.30) with ESMTP; 11 Aug 97 17:45:56 -0700 Message-ID: <33EFA365.58E51BFA@smaug.devry.ca> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:42:29 -0600 From: Stephane Raimbault X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Netscape Mail question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I would like to make my Netscape Mail thread the messages. I am using the FreeBSD version of Netscape (4.02b7). I cannot find the option. I hope netscape has not gotten rid of the option. Thank you for your time, Stephane From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 20:07:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA21632 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA21627 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:07:17 -0700 (PDT) From: grog@lemis.com Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id UAA08746; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:07:15 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id MAA00623; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:06:51 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199708120306.MAA00623@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: <199708090724.BAA12406@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Aug 9, 97 01:24:05 am" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:06:50 +0900 (JST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > Greg Lehey writes: >> Marc Slemko writes: >>> 43. [M93] Which "traditional" TCP/IP service is often the most problematic >>> for microcomputers to provide? >>> >>> Remote printing. >>> File transfer protocol (FTP). >>> Hypertext transfer protocol (HTTP). >>> Computer mail. >>> >>> (the correct answer is huh? Use FreeBSD.) >> >> Precisely. Local knowledge? > > Nope, just a more general look at the problem. By "microcomputers" they > mean "bonehead PCs and Macs that get switched off and don't have stable, > reliable TCP/IP network stacks." Well, I'd consider this definition either local knowledge or an informed guess :-) > For this reason, the commonly accepted answer amongst PC dweebs > everywhere is "computer mail", which requires the computer to be on > all the time. E-mail is a peer-to-peer arrangement by nature, > whereas the other three are client-server oriented. I suppose that makes sense. But this is supposed to be for UNIX people, and so I'd expect different terminology, or a different view of the world. > I'll have to go give this questionaire a try. Do so. There are some good questions in there too. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 22:20:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00202 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u3.farm.idt.net (root@u3.farm.idt.net [169.132.8.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00146 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idt.net (ppp-64.ts-1.mlb.idt.net [169.132.71.64]) by u3.farm.idt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA29248; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33EFF276.D2F49954@idt.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:19:51 -0400 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Raimbault CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape Mail question References: <33EFA365.58E51BFA@smaug.devry.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephane Raimbault wrote: > I would like to make my Netscape Mail thread the messages. I am using > the FreeBSD version of Netscape (4.02b7). I cannot find the option. > I hope netscape has not gotten rid of the option. > > Thank you for your time, > Stephane Click the symbol to the left of "Subject" in the mail tool window, and you'll get threading... A question for you and any other users of FreeBSD Netscape 4.02b7 : Can you completely exit the applicaton and successfully start it up again? When I do this, a "netscape" process runs, but no windows show on the screen. If I remove ~/.netscape/preferences.js and let it recreate the file from my old Netscape 3 "preferences" file, then it runs okay - but of course I've lost any preference changes I made. Do others see this behavior, or is it likely to be something specific to my particular setup? Thanks, Gary From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 11 23:49:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA05130 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA05120; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA24368; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:52:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:52:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708120652.AAA24368@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708112215.PAA03422@hub.freebsd.org> References: <199708111618.KAA00620@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199708112215.PAA03422@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: % Unfortunately, the 'separation of church/state' has become more of an % issue of 'not allowing anything religious', instead of what I believe to % be the original intent of 'not encouraging a specific religion'. Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > not allowing govt to favor one religion over another > or favoring the religious over the agnostic. The actual text of the First Amendment to the Constitution reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..." What exactly this means varies widely from person to person. I certainly don't read this "You may not open a town meeting with a prayer", but the ACLU office in Salt Lake City does. Weird how wrong they can be sometimes, isn't it? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 00:21:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA07052 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA07045; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id DAA28033; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:20:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:20:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199708120720.DAA28033@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG CC: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708112132.OAA01265@hub.freebsd.org> (jmb@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Belief is not the beginning but the end of all knowledge. --Goethe Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk we do you say "competitive education system"?? were vouchers available there? could parents send their children to any school they choose? In Hawaii, parents can choose to send their children to the local public school, or they can choose any private school. If they choose a private school, the government pays nothing for the child's education. I think about a third of the K-12 students attend private schools here. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 02:19:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12205 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12192; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.6/(97/05/21 3.30)) id FAA11628; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:19:31 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from default (cnc143041.concentric.net [206.173.207.41]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.6) id FAA11179; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33F038C9.CDDB5C0E@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:19:55 -0800 From: ML Duke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hoek@hwcn.org CC: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk After reading several messages about the decline in public systems, a thought struck. Zero public systems would work just fine. ML Duke From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 05:43:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA19251 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA19236; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708121244.IAA20610@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:45:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Annelise Anderson cc: Scott Blachowicz , ac199@hwcn.org, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , hoek@hwcn.org, softweyr@xmission.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > Actually the absence of correlation between inputs and results in > education is rather well established. This basic research, quite > extensive, was done and published by James Coleman (in a book of which > I can't recall the title) some 30 years ago. During the '70s attempts > were made to beat this finding down, with little success. Some studies > in the '80s tried to chip away at it again with new data. In > addition to Coleman there were studies that found no correlation > between student achievement and teacher/student ratio, books in the > library, etc. etc. Fine, send your kids to a school that has: a roof full of holes a curriculum that might offer geometry as it's most advanced math class a lack of textbooks for students to learn from underpaid teachers with little supplies and rescources a library with no books walls that are painted like prisons overloaded cousellers (assuming they even have them) and we'll see how your kids do. You might have time to make up the difference in education that a school described above (there are close to 50 of them in NYC alone that have all the above condidtions), but the average poor person does not. They have no time. They are busy trying to survive, and don't have the education necessary to make up for the lack of education the schools provide. That we have equality of education in america is a lie. That money makes no difference is a lie. Yes, the socio-economic condition of the families of children have a large impact, and the poor are the children who need the most support outside of their families. They are not getting it. My wife has a degree in sociology, and is working on her masters in education. I have this stuff laying around the house. If you want a very clear picture of the worst the american educational system has to offer, read 'Savage Inequalities', I forget the name of the author, but can get it. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 07:56:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26465 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26458 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17756; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04229; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:57:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708120720.DAA28033@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > I think about a third of the K-12 students attend private schools here. > I'm kinda assuming you mean "here", "you're local region". If you mean "here", "Hawaii", then that's a heck of a lot of people. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 09:47:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA03573 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA03555; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:47:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708121647.JAA03555@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@mt.sri.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708120652.AAA24368@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from "Wes Peters" at Aug 12, 97 00:52:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters wrote: > > The actual text of the First Amendment to the Constitution reads: > > "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of > religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..." > > What exactly this means varies widely from person to person. I > certainly don't read this "You may not open a town meeting with a > prayer", but the ACLU office in Salt Lake City does. Weird how wrong > they can be sometimes, isn't it? ;^) whose prayer? which religion? what language? what is suitable to pray for? shall we vote on it :) what if i find 50 people that object to one of the choices above? 45? 40? 30? 20? 10? perhaps for these reasons the ACLU does not want to allow the majority to dictate to the rest of the people. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 16:05:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28877 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA28866 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id TAA07239; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:04:36 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:04:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199708122304.TAA07239@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: hoek@hwcn.org CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Tim Vanderhoek on Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: The prairies are vast plains covered by treeless forests. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > I think about a third of the K-12 students attend private schools here. > I'm kinda assuming you mean "here", "you're local region". If you mean "here", "Hawaii", then that's a heck of a lot of people. The area I mean by `here' is actually Oahu, which is the most populated island in the state of Hawaii. (I think the population is over a million.) There are about a half dozen Lutheran elemntary schools here, and one Lutheran high school. Many of the people who go those schools aren't Lutheran. (My understanding is that in some parts of the mainland, there are Lutheran schools in a similar arrangement, except that I think in those schools tend to be mostly Lutheran students.) And several other religous groups have their collections of schools as well. The school I attend (Iolani) is affiliated with the Episcopal church, although that's mostly historical, and I think most students at Iolani are probably atheists. (Although we are requrired to attend chapel once a week.) I've just realized that most of the private schools here do seem to have religous affiliations. I'm not sure what percentage of students do attend private schools, but I'm sure it's well over 10%. I'm not really sure how many private vs public schools exist on the other islands. I get the impression that there are very few private schools on other islands. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 17:27:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03974 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (serial.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03968; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA19487; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:27:38 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <199708121647.JAA03555@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > The actual text of the First Amendment to the Constitution reads: > > > > "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of > > religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..." > > > > What exactly this means varies widely from person to person. I > > certainly don't read this "You may not open a town meeting with a > > prayer", but the ACLU office in Salt Lake City does. Weird how wrong > > they can be sometimes, isn't it? ;^) > > whose prayer? > which religion? > what language? > what is suitable to pray for? > > shall we vote on it :) > > what if i find 50 people that object to one of the choices above? > 45? 40? 30? 20? 10? > > perhaps for these reasons the ACLU does not want to allow the majority > to dictate to the rest of the people. Fortunately it's not just a question of what the ACLU wants to allow. Contrary to popular opinion this country is not a democracy but a constitutional republic. Meaning that the will of the majority can not override the constitutionally guaranteed rights of the minority. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 20:43:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA17209 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA17201 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA11816; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:12:44 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708130342.NAA11816@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad In-Reply-To: <33ECC4C3.4C4EF3C2@idt.net> from "Gary T. Corcoran" at "Aug 9, 97 03:28:03 pm" To: garycorc@idt.net (Gary T. Corcoran) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:12:44 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary T. Corcoran stands accused of saying: > Sean Kelly wrote: > > > > > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? > > > > I'm partial to the PalmPilot, from US Robotics. It lacks a lot of > > features compared to the latest Newtons or Windows CE (whatever the heck > > that means) palm computers ^^ > "Compact Edition" I prefer "Caveat Emptor", or the more brutal "Crap Edition". Given the existence of machines like the Libretto, and IBM's tiny baby, CE is a bad joke and no mistake. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 21:31:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA19746 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA19738; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id AAA11205; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:30:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:30:35 -0400 Message-Id: <199708130430.AAA11205@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: Studded@dal.net CC: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708112306.QAA00849@mail.san.rr.com> (Studded@dal.net) Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm looking for a good book on the sh shell and writing scripts > with it. Even better would be some good FAQ's and such available on the > net since "free" is much more in my price range nowadays. :) Best advice is to read existing shell scripts. I believe that GNU autoconf (ftp at prep.ai.mit.edu) comes with several working (ie, real-use) examples. O'Reilly and Associates probably has a good sh programming book. But really, the manual is typically enough... start small (command-command-command, no structure), and build. > Alternatively, is sh "dead" in the modern Unix world? I know Perl > and TCL are very popular, but I'm trying to produce some tools that will > be compatible across a number of platforms, and are easily > accesible/modifiable by people who are not professional system > administrators. Shell scripts become hairy quickly. But for across-the-board Unix compatibility, nothing beats sh (aka the Bourne shell). Every still-used Unix system will probably have ksh, and most likely csh (the latter being less likely), but you can never be quite sure. Bottom line: if you're distributing it cross-platform, use the Bourne shell. If you're using it on your own company's computers only, or for personal use, use your favourite shell. > Finally, for general purposes, what is the "best" shell available, > and why? I know that this topic borders on religious fervor for some > people, This is why I kindly request that nobody reply to the remainder of my message with opinions. Missing significant shells or incorrect *facts* may be corrected. > Personally I'm happy with Bash for my everyday stuff, although from what > I've heard it's looked down on by the purists. Not purists. Traditionalists. Traditional BSD hackers prefer csh. It's (marginally) cleaner, and it's been around longer. Most Linux hackers prefer bash. Almost nobody (who is serious about Unix) uses the Bourne shell as their login shell, but every Unix hacker can program in it. SysV [hiss] traditionalists tend to use ksh (which is a Bourne shell superset). In the beginning was sh, and it was without structure, and void. And came forth from the labs hackers, bearing each idiosyncrasies in their own fashion. Then Berkeley said, "Let there be job control!" And there was job control. And Berkeley said, "Let there be a shell, being of Bourne, which shall wield job control!" And thus was created jsh, but it slipped into the mists of time. Then AT&T said, "Let there be a shell of Bourne, that hath security!" And there was security, not so that of a prison of bars, but of a padded cell with an open window. And thus was created rsh, but it too slipped into the mists of time. (A utility came forth from BSD also known rsh, but that shared only name.) So stepped forth Allman, saying, "This sh(1) is of filth; it is ambiguous and hath many kluges. Let there be a different shell, of programmability and versatility." Thus was created the csh, and was structured in the fashion of C, and BSD looked, and saw it was good. So stepped forth Korn, saying, "This Bourne shell is impotent; it lacks the versaitility which are brought about by functions. Let there be a similar shell, of programmability and versatility." Thus was created the ksh, and though it was of sh(1), it was structured, and USG looked, and saw it was good. So stepped forth Gates, saying, "Let there be a shell for my OS!" And thus was created command.com, and in its hilarity much amusement was to be had by all, save those who were to use it. Then went forth Allman to create other things, and the csh was still, while Korn continued to cause the ksh to grow, and become fruitful. So came hackers from across the lands, from beyond the seas, and created shells of csh, each in their own fashion. So were created tcsh, and zsh, and others. And the hackers came forth, and each took as was in their own form, and were happy. So stepped forth Stallman, saying, "This wealth of shells across the land, and yet the only common shell is the Bourne shell. For GNU, we shall have the Bourne shell, but it shall not be the Bourne shell, lest the Demons of Copyrights destroy us forever. Let the shell be Bourne again!" And thus was created bash, in the form of the Bourne shell, and yet taking from it the lessons learned by the making of csh and ksh and others, and GNU looked, and it was good. So stepped again forth Gates, saying, "Let there be another shell!" And thus was created cmd.exe, and again amusement was had by all. Thus were created the shells and counted thus: sh, jsh, rsh, ksh, csh, tcsh, zsh, and bash, and from these their offspring, too numerous to count. And thus was never created a judge of shells, and the hackers shall choose as they see fit. -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 12 23:37:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA28670 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28665 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.6/(97/08/10 3.31)) id CAA18944; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:37:24 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from default (cnc143042.concentric.net [206.173.207.42]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.6) id CAA19771; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33F16449.21862F8B@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:37:47 -0800 From: ML Duke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What Value Public Schools? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Given the many recent posts about public vs private schools, a current series of articles is quite timely. In a comparison of achievement tests between public and home schooled children, the home schoolers outscored their public counterparts by distances ranging from 30 points in Total Language to 87 points in both Total Reading and Complete Battery. On the cover page, home schooled Rebecca Sealfron is highlighted as winner of the 1997 National Spelling Bee. Public schools are a national disaster, and the biggest of these is that the vast majority of public school products under 40 believe that moral absolutes do not exist, and then we wonder why crime is on the steady rise: Everything is relative and anything goes. Including murder. Public schools are no different than any other government program: The War on Poverty creates more of it, The War on Drugs does the same, and even the Paperwork Reduction Act created more government paperwork. On a personal level, I personally took our Daughter out of public school and opted for home teaching when I finally sat up and paid attention to what she did and did not know. In preparation for home schooling, testing revealed that our about to be 11th grader could read at a high 4th/low 5th grade level--and she had been passing with mostly B's with occasional A's and C's. After two years of personal battle, she could read at the near senior level--and even thanked us for it 7 years later. Another star example is that public school students know little or nothing about the time value of money: Ask a few to estimate the actual savings created by paying $50 per month more over the life of a thirty year mortgage. When you have verified the student knows Zip, (Hell, most of them can't count change) ask yourself who benefits from the student not knowing it. Public school students are not taught How to Think, they are taught What to Think and to have "self esteem" that far exceeds their ability, to be good little government socialists (read Carl Marx Communist) and believe the "news" they see on television because it is "official." The majority of people under 40, for example, do not have a clue of what really happened at Ruby Ridge, Waco or Oklahoma City, and there are not one in ten thousand--I estimate--that has even heard of the Maynard Campbell incident in Oregon, much less many other incidents of isolated government murder around the country and the fact that money is routinely arrested and never returned without criminal charges ever being filed against anyone. I would not have a child of mine in public school today--no way, no how and no matter the potential penalty: There is plenty of company in this view as evidenced by the growing numbers of home schooled children throughout the country--but Clinton has plans to put an end to it. He has said "we already know we should start teaching children before they start school," and it is his intention (read the intention of his internationalist/socialist string pullers) that government should control the teaching. Ah but enough is enough. Not to write a book here. Those interested can call 1-800-522-6292 and discover that the entire public school system problem is much older and much worse than the small bit I have covered here. After reading "Pavlov's Children," your view of public schools will (should) never be the same again. And what does all of this have to do with computers? Everything. ML Duke From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 00:18:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA01163 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01146 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA13758; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:47:59 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708130717.QAA13758@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: What Value Public Schools? In-Reply-To: <33F16449.21862F8B@concentric.net> from ML Duke at "Aug 12, 97 11:37:47 pm" To: mlduke@concentric.net (ML Duke) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:47:59 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ML Duke stands accused of saying: > > And what does all of this have to do with computers? Sweet FA. It _does_ have a lot to do with the Xfiles, and perhaps a certain individual's right-of-Ghengis-Kahn political stance. It might help you to consider for just a moment that a good half of your audience consider the USA a complete joke as far as a society goes, and people like yourself are part of the punchline. > ML Duke -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 00:44:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA02377 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02370 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA21528; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:44:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: mlduke@concentric.net (ML Duke), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Value Public Schools? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:47:59 +0930." <199708130717.QAA13758@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:44:05 -0700 Message-ID: <21525.871458245@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [The referee steps in] "OK folks, back to your corners! No biting or eye-gouging allowed, OK?" > ML Duke stands accused of saying: > > > > And what does all of this have to do with computers? > > Sweet FA. It _does_ have a lot to do with the Xfiles, and perhaps a > certain individual's right-of-Ghengis-Kahn political stance. It might > help you to consider for just a moment that a good half of your > audience consider the USA a complete joke as far as a society goes, > and people like yourself are part of the punchline. > > > ML Duke > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 11:16:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17505 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA17495 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13500; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20604; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:16:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:16:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: ML Duke cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Value Public Schools? In-Reply-To: <33F16449.21862F8B@concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Ok, to an extent this has been discussed to death, but I want to make _one_ (1) comment! I know I shouldn't, and I'm trying to resist, believe me, but I can't. :-] On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, ML Duke wrote: > Public schools are a national disaster, and the biggest of > these is that the vast majority of public school products under > 40 believe that moral absolutes do not exist, and then we > wonder why crime is on the steady rise: Everything is relative > and anything goes. Including murder. Always very easy to shift the blame as far away as possible from ourselves, eh? > Public schools are no different than any other government program: The > War on Poverty creates more of it, The War on Drugs does the same, and > even the Paperwork Reduction Act created more government paperwork. I think your view is just a tad jaded. > Another star example is that public school students know little > or nothing about the time value of money: Ask a few to estimate > the actual savings created by paying $50 per month more over > the life of a thirty year mortgage. When you have verified the > student knows Zip, (Hell, most of them can't count change) ask > yourself who benefits from the student not knowing it. I can't. I'm not sure I care that I can't. Oddly enough, that's the type of thing my private school teaches in _general_ math, but not in _advanced_ math. > Public school students are not taught How to Think, they are taught What > to Think and to have "self esteem" that far exceeds their ability, to be > good little government socialists (read Carl Marx Communist) and believe > the "news" they see on television because it is "official." [This is the comment I want to make, btw] You are vastly underestimating the value of what you're trying to shoot down. Emphasis in education has shifted from silly little rote learning that you were likely immersed in as a child. The emphasis now is on the _method_, ie. How to Think. You complain about "self esteem", but I know _way_ too many friends who have been conditioned to believe that they are not smart. When they get their usuall poor marks, they excuse them with "I'm not smart, anyways." This belief becomes an excuse to, of all things, not put effort into their work. When Ontario destreamed grade 9 there were many screams just like yours, but, oddly enough, after these parents who complained saw their children go through it, many changed (not that I necessarily support destreamed grade 9, but). We ["we" != US] tend to perform poorly on standarized tests compared to other countries such as Japan. This looks bad until one looks more closely. It turns out that on a "brightest student" for "brightest student" basis, we do Ok. What made the statistics look bad was the fact that certain other countries dropped their poor students out of school, leaving only the bright ones while we were more likely to enforce a minimum amount of education. I'm not saying that certain education systems aren't broken, but I am saying that a return to what you seem to be advocating is going backwards. > The majority of people under 40, for example, do not have a > clue of what really happened at Ruby Ridge, Waco or Oklahoma > City, and there are not one in ten thousand--I estimate--that > has even heard of the Maynard Campbell incident in Oregon, > much less many other incidents of isolated "what really happened" -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 13:49:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26535 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26525 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA11477; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:43:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: Studded@dal.net, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: <199708130430.AAA11205@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > [...] > Thus were created the shells and counted thus: sh, jsh, rsh, ksh, csh, > tcsh, zsh, and bash, and from these their offspring, too numerous to > count. And thus was never created a judge of shells, and the hackers > shall choose as they see fit. > I love this, the whole thing. On a more mundane and far less entertaining level, here's a draft of the stuff on shells I'm adding to the newuser tutorial...I did a fresh install of 2.2R to find out what had changed since 2.1, and discovered alot had changed...and that the default shell when adding a new user is sh. One of my operating rules is "When in doubt, accept what the gurus give you," but .... So, this is what is proposed to tell new users....remember these are people who ask questions like "What is the name of the administrative account?" and "How do I log out--when I type logout it says 'Not a login shell'?" Comments welcome, even flames. [...] The first time you use adduser, it might ask for some defaults to save. You might want to make the default shell csh instead of sh, if it suggests sh as the default. Otherwise just press enter to accept each default. [...] 9. Your Working Environment Your shell is the most important part of your working environment. In DOS, the usual shell is command.com. The shell is what interprets the commands you type on the command line, and thus communicates with the rest of the operating system. You can also write shell scripts, which are like DOS batch files: a series of commands to be run without your intervention. Two shells come installed with FreeBSD: csh and sh. csh is good for command-line work, but scripts should be written with sh (or bash). You can find out what shell you have by typing echo $SHELL. The csh shell is okay, but tcsh does everything csh does and more. It It allows you to recall commands with the arrow keys and edit them. It has tab-key completion of filenames (csh uses the escape key), and it lets you switch to the directory you were last in with cd -. It's also much easier to alter your prompt with tcsh, and to get it to use a different symbol to indicate to you whether you're an ordinary user or root. It makes life a lot easier. Here are the three steps for installing a new shell: 1. Install the shell as a port or a package, just as you would any other port or package. Use rehash and which tcsh (assuming you're installing tcsh) to make sure it got installed. 2. As root, edit /etc/shells, adding a line in the file for the new shell, in this case /usr/local/bin/tcsh, and save the file. 3. Use the chsh command to change your shell to tcsh permanently, or type tcsh at the prompt to change your shell without logging in again. Note: Do not change root's shell. It must be either sh or csh, because otherwise you may not have a working shell when the system puts you into single user mode. When you use su -m to become root, you will have tcsh anyway, because the shell is part of the environment. When tcsh starts up, it will read the /etc/csh.cshrc and /etc/csh.login files, as does csh. It will also read the .login file in your home directory and the .cshrc file as well, unless you provide a .tcshrc file. This you can do by simply copying .cshrc to .tcshrc. Now that you've installed tcsh, you can adjust your prompt. You can find the details in the manual page for tcsh, but here is a line to put in your .tcshrc that will tell you how many commands you have typed, what time it is, and what directory you are in. It aslo produces a > if you're an ordinary user and a # if you're root: set prompt = "%h %t %~ %# " This should go in the same place as the existing set prompt line. Comment out the old one; you can always switch back to it if you prefer it. Don't forget the spaces and quotes. [...] Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 16:33:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07081 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x22 (ppp6559.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.208.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07071 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by x22 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00500; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:31:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Annelise Anderson cc: Joel Ray Holveck , Studded@dal.net, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > 2. As root, edit /etc/shells, adding a line in the file for the new > shell, in this case /usr/local/bin/tcsh, and save the file. I coulda sworn that installing as a port does this for you. In fact, after checking bash2/Makefile it does. zsh/Makefile doesn't, but the zsh package (like the bash2 package) does, so I assume that the normal zsh install does. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 18:28:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA12780 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from css.tuu.utas.edu.au (acs@css.tuu.utas.edu.au [131.217.115.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12775 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:28:49 -0700 (PDT) From: andrew@ugh.net.au Received: from localhost (acs@localhost) by css.tuu.utas.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA05200; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:30:35 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: depravitas.tuu.utas.edu.au: acs owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:30:35 +1000 (EST) To: Annelise Anderson cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Meaning-of-Life: none X-WonK: *wibble* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > Note: Do not change root's shell. It must be either sh or csh, because > otherwise you may not have a working shell when the system puts you > into single user mode. When you use su -m to become root, you will When you go into single user mode, if roots shell is unavailable it promtps you for a shell to use (type path anm,e of shell or return for /bin/sh)....At least I think it did but I haven't been single user for a while... Andrew From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 20:59:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA20083 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iconz.co.nz (iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA20076 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.iconz.co.nz (status.gen.nz [202.14.100.1]) by iconz.co.nz (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA02155; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:58:55 +1200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news.iconz.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id PAA08151; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:58:53 +1200 Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03610; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:28:03 +1200 (NZST) Received: from localhost (jonc@localhost) by tui.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00872; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:27:07 +1200 (NZST) X-Authentication-Warning: tui.pinnacle.co.nz: jonc owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:27:01 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: Annelise Anderson cc: Joel Ray Holveck , Studded@dal.net, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: [snip] > Note: Do not change root's shell. It must be either sh or csh, because > otherwise you may not have a working shell when the system puts you > into single user mode. Is this true? I've got tcsh as my root's shell, and when I `shutdown' into single user, FreeBSD prompts me for the shell to use (in which case I accept the default `sh'). Cheers. -- Jonathan Chen e-mail : jonc@pinnacle.co.nz Pinnacle Software Ltd Voice : +64.9.415.4460 Auckland, New Zealand Fax : +64.9.415.4250 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 21:22:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21224 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21217 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA10645; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:22:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:22:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: andrew@ugh.net.au cc: Annelise Anderson , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 andrew@ugh.net.au wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > Note: Do not change root's shell. It must be either sh or csh, because > > otherwise you may not have a working shell when the system puts you > > into single user mode. When you use su -m to become root, you will > > When you go into single user mode, if roots shell is unavailable it > promtps you for a shell to use (type path anm,e of shell or return for > /bin/sh)....At least I think it did but I haven't been single user for a > while... That's generally sage advice that Annelise was handing out. If you know the reasons why it's not valid for you, fine, but I've seen so many folks get bitten by it, folks who innocently didn't know what it means to be dynamically linked, that I'd rather that stayed in. It's not valid for me either, but it's good advice. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 21:28:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21511 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21503 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA10772; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:27:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:27:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Jonathan Chen cc: Annelise Anderson , Joel Ray Holveck , Studded@dal.net, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Jonathan Chen wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > [snip] > > Note: Do not change root's shell. It must be either sh or csh, because > > otherwise you may not have a working shell when the system puts you > > into single user mode. > > Is this true? I've got tcsh as my root's shell, and when I `shutdown' > into single user, FreeBSD prompts me for the shell to use (in which > case I accept the default `sh'). FreeBSD's been fixed in that regard, but for those of us who work on multiple machines, well, there's lots of bsd platforms that this could get you on. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 21:49:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA22591 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (serial.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22579 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA24695; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:49:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:49:13 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: Jonathan Chen cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Jonathan Chen wrote: > [snip] > > Note: Do not change root's shell. It must be either sh or csh, because > > otherwise you may not have a working shell when the system puts you > > into single user mode. > > Is this true? Absolutely not. > I've got tcsh as my root's shell, and when I `shutdown' > into single user, FreeBSD prompts me for the shell to use (in which > case I accept the default `sh'). I have seven boxen with tcsh as the root shell and entering single user mode they all prompt for a shell, offering sh as the default. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 13 22:39:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25265 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25259 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA14142; Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:37:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: Joel Ray Holveck , Studded@dal.net, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > 2. As root, edit /etc/shells, adding a line in the file for the new > > shell, in this case /usr/local/bin/tcsh, and save the file. > > I coulda sworn that installing as a port does this for you. In > fact, after checking bash2/Makefile it does. zsh/Makefile doesn't, > but the zsh package (like the bash2 package) does, so I assume that > the normal zsh install does. I deleted /usr/local/bin/tcsh from /etc/shells and reinstalled it as a port, and it at least did not do it; but I have added a note to 2. (above) that the port might do this step for you. Thanks. Actually I'm sort of glad the tcsh port doesn't do it, because part of the purpose is to get across the separate pieces of this thing. Annelise P.S. Since the original poster is still being cc'd here, once source of help/ideas on shell scripting is the newsgroup comp.unix.shells. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 03:07:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA09280 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA09274 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdhack@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id NAA12170 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:05:22 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199708141005.NAA12170@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <28524.871505619@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Aug 13, 97 01:53:39 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:05:22 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk this one goes to chat... (from hackers) > > numbers are Mbyt/sec. can anyone beat those tx97-e speeds? > root@beast-> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 > 1000+0 records in > 1000+0 records out > 1048576000 bytes transferred in 6 secs (174762666 bytes/sec) *gasp* > OK, so I had to go to an ALPHA to do it. ;-) which alpha? c'mon jordan, his is not alt.tasteless.freebsd.hackers :PPPPPPPPPPPP now i have to find someone with Onux2 InfiniteReality Monster or whatever the highend station from that series is called... please, someone, wipe that smile from his face with something much higher numbers... anyone? uh, let me re-phrase, can anyone get past that 151,4Mbyt/sec with x86 tech? (it was average, highest i saw was somewhere in the 153M class) actually, now that i think about it, the alpha is not that much faster at all, i have to say i might be even dissapointed to see such a slow stat from a machine costing multiple times the tx97-e motherboard... *poke* > Jordan mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 03:31:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA10027 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA10022 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA08579; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:31:20 -0700 (PDT) To: mika ruohotie cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:05:22 +0300." <199708141005.NAA12170@shadows.aeon.net> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:31:18 -0700 Message-ID: <8565.871554678@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > OK, so I had to go to an ALPHA to do it. ;-) > > which alpha? > > c'mon jordan, his is not alt.tasteless.freebsd.hackers :PPPPPPPPPPPP It's a DEC Durango motherboard with a 500Mhz 21164 CPU. I bought it from Aspen systems (www.aspsys.com) and it's currently running Netbsd-current as a reference platform for the FreeBSD/ALPHA effort which is slowly getting under way now. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 04:13:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA11617 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA11612 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01967; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:12:47 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:12:55 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: mika ruohotie cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <199708141005.NAA12170@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, mika ruohotie wrote: > this one goes to chat... (from hackers) > > > > numbers are Mbyt/sec. can anyone beat those tx97-e speeds? > > root@beast-> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 > > 1000+0 records in > > 1000+0 records out > > 1048576000 bytes transferred in 6 secs (174762666 bytes/sec) > > *gasp* I'm using a plain Intel VX based motherboard with a vanilla Pentium 166 (150 overclocked) and with that test I get: root@dylan# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 1000+0 records in 1000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 8.404485 secs (124763861 bytes/sec) I'm just using 60ns EDO on a normal non-overclocked board (66Mhz bus etc.), but this test is beginning to confuse me.. 1) whats the blocksize got to do with the number.. i.e. if you use smaller blocksize does it not go through main memory and only touch cache ? 2) If I was running this board at 83MHz I would expect (naively perhaps) that figure to go 83/66 times faster, which *should* give me 156900007 bytes/sec. okay so that's 149Mb/s. (assuming a Megabyte is 1048576 bytes). 3) I've seen stuff on these lists implying that xxx000000 bytes/second counts as xxxMB/s. It's almost like we're selling hard drives, advertising size or speed in terms of decimal MB instead of real MB. > uh, let me re-phrase, can anyone get past that 151,4Mbyt/sec with x86 tech? > (it was average, highest i saw was somewhere in the 153M class) [See above (3),] was it really not 153xxxxxx bytes/second, I'd be interested what the actual maximum theoretical bandwidth is, because I'm not so sure about this test anymore. Using a PP200 yesterday with 2.1-STABLE I only got about 60Mb/s, and I'm concerned how much of a reliable test this is. I was under the impression that at 83Mhz bus speed with good RAM and assuming absolutely no delays and waits for ram to precharge etc.. blah blah you should get a top transfer of 166MB/s. Obviously some will be lost so I wouldn't expect to get much more than that 153M you saw. > actually, now that i think about it, the alpha is not that much faster at all, > i have to say i might be even dissapointed to see such a slow stat from > a machine costing multiple times the tx97-e motherboard... But the alpha thing is odd, what's the alpha's memory bus speed and what byte width memory does it use. Is that 166MB/s show above approaching the alpha's limit (it's one of those limit sounding numbers). If so, x86 platforms will be outperforming this as soon as 100Mhz motherboards come out. I wouldn't be surprised if that's not some time in the next few months, or are they already out. If so, then that alpha better not have cost more than 2000 UK pounds (or $2000 I suppose considering the price of hardware here.) -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 04:40:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA12523 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA12518 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA13238; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:39:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Roome cc: mika ruohotie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:12:55 BST." Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:39:48 -0700 Message-ID: <13234.871558788@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But the alpha thing is odd, what's the alpha's memory bus speed and what > byte width memory does it use. Is that 166MB/s show above approaching the I'm not sure what the bus speed is, but the memory width is 64 bit. You have to use 8 SIMMS at a time with the Durango motherboard, nothing smaller. > If so, then that alpha better not have cost more than 2000 UK pounds (or > $2000 I suppose considering the price of hardware here.) It's less than that and remains a pretty good deal. Don't forget that memory speed isn't the only benchmark it wins. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 05:07:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA13438 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13427 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02831; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:06:58 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:07:07 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: mika ruohotie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <13234.871558788@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > But the alpha thing is odd, what's the alpha's memory bus speed and what > > byte width memory does it use. Is that 166MB/s show above approaching the > > I'm not sure what the bus speed is, but the memory width is 64 bit. > You have to use 8 SIMMS at a time with the Durango motherboard, > nothing smaller. Okay, x86 architecture sucks in comparison, I new this already. I suppose it interleaves each group of 8 64bit SIMMS. Shame PC's have so much archaic backwards compatibility... (seen this topic before!) > > > If so, then that alpha better not have cost more than 2000 UK pounds (or > > $2000 I suppose considering the price of hardware here.) > > It's less than that and remains a pretty good deal. Don't forget that > memory speed isn't the only benchmark it wins. :-) Yes, I think the memory speed test has been overhyped and it's meaning lost a bit, make world is a more useful benchmark perhaps, but really all these numbers (SpecINT etc.) don't impress me that much. Really what's the difference between an alpha fileserver and an Intel fileserver both with a good RAID setup ? (apart from cost.) The disks in an alpha probably aren't going to be much/any faster than the same disks in a pentium are they ? -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 05:10:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA13663 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@[129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13646 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18287 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:37:14 +0200 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA17168 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:12:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id OAA25391; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:09:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970814140939.22800@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:09:39 +0200 From: Philippe Regnauld To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD background logo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: Main Body X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Had fun with the Gimp. Take a look at: http://hotel.prosa.dk/~pjr/FreeBSD -- -- Phil -[ Philippe Regnauld / Systems Administrator / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk ]- -[ Location.: +55.4N +11.3E PGP Key: finger regnauld@hotel.prosa.dk ]- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 08:06:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22336 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22315 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (daemon@cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.101]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06235; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:06:45 GMT Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (auk.fsl.noaa.gov) by cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov with ESMTP (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA250661200; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:06:40 -0600 Message-Id: <33F31EFF.6AE1B5B2@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:06:39 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/725) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: jack Cc: Jonathan Chen , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------268F6ED340E8F7AEBD8F544D" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------268F6ED340E8F7AEBD8F544D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have seven boxen with tcsh as the root shell and entering single user > mode they all prompt for a shell, offering sh as the default. That might be the case on FreeBSD. But I do remember some naive SunOS 4 system admins who changed root's shell to /usr/local/bin/tcsh ... and then their /usr/local partition went bad. It could've been easily fsck'd from single user mode, but booting from CD-ROM was their only recourse. Considering that documentation even explicitly written for FreeBSD is read by non-FreeBSD users, Annelise's advice is still good. (And that does happen: after writing the Printing chapter for the handbook, with explicit "FreeBSD"s appearing everywhere, I still get email questions asking how to do such-and-such with the System V spooler and how in DOS the print devices are LPT1: and not /dev/lpt0, etc.) --k --------------268F6ED340E8F7AEBD8F544D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Sean Kelly Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Sean Kelly n: Kelly;Sean org: CIRA/NOAA adr: NOAA/OAR/ERL/FSL/SDD R/E/FS4;;325 Broadway;Boulder;Colorado;80303;USA email;internet: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov title: Research Coordinator tel;work: 303.497.6247 tel;fax: 303.497.7256 tel;home: Yeah, right. x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------268F6ED340E8F7AEBD8F544D-- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 10:22:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00800 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00791 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.13]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id KAA18004; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:22:11 -0700 Received: from claque.Eng.Sun.COM by Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id KAA28498; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:22:08 -0700 Received: from freebsd.Eng.Sun.COM by claque.Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA23277; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:22:07 -0700 Received: from eng.sun.com by freebsd.Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA07503; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:22:07 -0700 Message-ID: <33F33EBE.37416F5C@eng.sun.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:22:06 -0700 From: Oliver Schmelzle Organization: Sun Microsystems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Annelise Anderson CC: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm pretty sure that the tcsh-port configures /etc/shells approprietly. Maybe there was still some tcsh package information on your system that stated that tcsh is still installed as a package. So it didn't reinstall the whole package. oli. > I deleted /usr/local/bin/tcsh from /etc/shells and reinstalled it as > a port, and it at least did not do it; but I have added a note to > 2. (above) that the port might do this step for you. Thanks. > > Actually I'm sort of glad the tcsh port doesn't do it, because part of > the purpose is to get across the separate pieces of this thing. > > Annelise > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 11:12:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03237 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03229 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA15768; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:52:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Oliver Schmelzle cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: <33F33EBE.37416F5C@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Oliver Schmelzle wrote: > I'm pretty sure that the tcsh-port configures /etc/shells approprietly. > Maybe there was still some tcsh package information on your system that > stated that tcsh is still installed as a package. So it didn't reinstall > the whole package. > > oli. 6.06 had been installed as a package, but what I installed was 6.07.02 (port sources as of August 5, 1977). So both are now registered. There's nothing in the Makefile that looks as if it will alter /etc/shells as far as I can tell; (nothing comparable to the lines in the bash2 Makefile). But the PLIST suggests that it thinks /etc/shells has in fact been changed. (This isn't a problem for me in terms of writing it up for new users or any other way.) Annelise > > > > I deleted /usr/local/bin/tcsh from /etc/shells and reinstalled it as > > a port, and it at least did not do it; but I have added a note to > > 2. (above) that the port might do this step for you. Thanks. > > > > Actually I'm sort of glad the tcsh port doesn't do it, because part of > > the purpose is to get across the separate pieces of this thing. > > > > Annelise > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 11:19:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03588 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03579 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA15794; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Sean Kelly cc: jack , Jonathan Chen , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: <33F31EFF.6AE1B5B2@fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY=------------268F6ED340E8F7AEBD8F544D Content-ID: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --------------268F6ED340E8F7AEBD8F544D Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-ID: Thanks very much to everyone who replied on this. I will do a little rewriting. Somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2, the alias su -m for su was in the skeleton files for .cshrc was dropped, so I will have to explain about that too; the document currently assumes that this alias is in place. I tried to changed root's shell to tcsh back when I was running probably 2.1.6 or 2.1.7, and got into enough trouble that I'm reluctant to try it again; I am now puzzled about why I got into that trouble. But I think I can rewrite it appropriately in any case. Thanks again. Annelise On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Sean Kelly wrote: > > I have seven boxen with tcsh as the root shell and entering single user > > mode they all prompt for a shell, offering sh as the default. > > That might be the case on FreeBSD. But I do remember some naive SunOS 4 system > admins who changed root's shell to /usr/local/bin/tcsh ... and then their > /usr/local partition went bad. It could've been easily fsck'd from single user > mode, but booting from CD-ROM was their only recourse. > > Considering that documentation even explicitly written for FreeBSD is read by > non-FreeBSD users, Annelise's advice is still good. (And that does happen: > after writing the Printing chapter for the handbook, with explicit "FreeBSD"s > appearing everywhere, I still get email questions asking how to do such-and-such > with the System V spooler and how in DOS the print devices are LPT1: and not > /dev/lpt0, etc.) > > --k > > --------------268F6ED340E8F7AEBD8F544D Content-Type: TEXT/X-VCARD; CHARSET=us-ascii; NAME="vcard.vcf" Content-ID: Content-Description: Card for Sean Kelly begin: vcard fn: Sean Kelly n: Kelly;Sean org: CIRA/NOAA adr: NOAA/OAR/ERL/FSL/SDD R/E/FS4;;325 Broadway;Boulder;Colorado;80303;USA email;internet: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov title: Research Coordinator tel;work: 303.497.6247 tel;fax: 303.497.7256 tel;home: Yeah, right. x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------268F6ED340E8F7AEBD8F544D-- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 14:14:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13730 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13700; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jack (ppp-206-170-1-101.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.101]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.6/8.7.1+antispam) with ESMTP id OAA24816; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:07:44 -0700 From: jack velte Reply-To: jackv@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org, platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: speed test X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <8565.871554678@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > OK, so I had to go to an ALPHA to do it. ;-) > > > > which alpha? > > > > c'mon jordan, his is not alt.tasteless.freebsd.hackers :PPPPPPPPPPPP > > It's a DEC Durango motherboard with a 500Mhz 21164 CPU. I bought it > from Aspen systems (www.aspsys.com) and it's currently running > Netbsd-current as a reference platform for the FreeBSD/ALPHA effort > which is slowly getting under way now. i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd working as the kernel under the next version of MacOS (the Nextstep derivative), you'll have a huge built-in audience of every installed Mac user. Nextstep is finally a reason other than graphic arts to own a Mac. Port FreeBSD and give the Mac people a choice. -jack From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 14:49:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15577 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15541; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10868; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:03:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id QAA17003; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:50:30 -0500 Message-ID: <19970814165029.56815@right.PCS> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:50:29 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: jackv@pacbell.net Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test References: <8565.871554678@time.cdrom.com> <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net>; from jack velte on Aug 08, 1997 at 02:07:44PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Aug 08, 1997 at 02:07:44PM -0700, jack velte wrote: > i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody > kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd > working as the kernel under the next version of MacOS (the Nextstep > derivative), you'll have a huge built-in audience of every installed Mac > user. Nextstep is finally a reason other than graphic arts to own a > Mac. Port FreeBSD and give the Mac people a choice. Ah, as a former NS user, I would much like to see the graphics layer on top of FBSD. However, I don't think the above is really possible. Rhapsody is not built on top of MkLinux, but is a Mach 3.x core, with 4.4BSD services layered on top. (NS was Mach 2.x, with 4.3 BSD) As NS is really Mach at heart, I don't think that it would be really possible to replace the kernel with FBSD. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 16:58:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22507 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22475; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA22210; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:27:24 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708142357.JAA22210@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net> from jack velte at "Aug 14, 97 02:07:44 pm" To: jackv@pacbell.net Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:27:23 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jack velte stands accused of saying: > > > > It's a DEC Durango motherboard with a 500Mhz 21164 CPU. I bought it > > from Aspen systems (www.aspsys.com) and it's currently running > > Netbsd-current as a reference platform for the FreeBSD/ALPHA effort > > which is slowly getting under way now. > > i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody > kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd > working as the kernel under the next version of MacOS (the Nextstep > derivative), you'll have a huge built-in audience of every installed Mac > user. Nextstep is finally a reason other than graphic arts to own a > Mac. Port FreeBSD and give the Mac people a choice. Just as soon as Apple release documentation on their pathetic hardware. Not only is their gear proprietary, it's _slow_. I'd prefer to run FreeBSD on a Multia. FWIW, MKlinux is a Linux server layered over Mach. There is a FreeBSD server for Mach as well; why not just get that going? > -jack -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 18:15:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26850 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26832; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02893; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:15:14 -0700 (PDT) To: jackv@pacbell.net cc: chat@freebsd.org, platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: speed test In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:07:44 PDT." <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:15:13 -0700 Message-ID: <2890.871607713@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody > kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it yet. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 18:44:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28657 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA28652 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-145.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.145]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20135; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:44:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA01297; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:15:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708150115.UAA01297@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Udo Wolter cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Burning CDs In-reply-to: Message from Udo Wolter of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:59:26 +0200." <9708141159.AA17095@merlin.ukrv.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:15:07 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (moved to chat) Udo Wolter writes: > > > > 2) How to burn a Mixed-Mode CD ? > > > > Not sure ... haven't done this .. YET ... (making some more Frisbees :) ) > > I use the crunched ones for saving my table: I put my glass onto it... > (I don't know the english word. In german it would be "Untersetzer" or > "Bierdeckel") We call them "coasters" in American, at least that's what my mother calls them. Don't know why, it doesn't make much sense to me. Happen to have a couple AOL CD's at work that I use to sit hot coffee cups on. A gulible person once asked about that, I explained the shiny aluminum layer in the CD was a space age reflective insulator... Actually it simply tickled my fancy to use an AOL disk that way (haven't been to the shooting range lately, they frown on shooting anything but their paper targets). Am now looking for a Windows NT CDROM... :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 18:59:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA29310 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29302 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp4.monmouth.com [205.164.221.36]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA27945; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id VAA01767 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:59:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199708150159.VAA01767@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <2890.871607713@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Aug 14, 97 06:15:13 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody > > kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd > > The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it > yet. > > Jordan > Geez... should I quit doing AIX for a living? Actually, I think there's a bit longer life to go in the PowerPC than you do. Disclaimers: I work for IBM, I used to work for DEC and I own stock in both! I think the Alpha's a dynamite chip and I'd love to run FreeBSD and FreeVMS on it. (I'd settle for FreeBSD and OpenVMS if I could only afford the latter... -- what I'd love is FreeBSD, OpenVMS, Digital Unix and WinNT and all on the same hardware. Benchmarking bliss!) I wish DEC was more open on the stuff (the way they were in the PDP11 days...) I wish IBM would support a FreeBSD port -- since they killed OS/2 on the PowerPC and need a viable low end (I mean price -- not quality) OS on it. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 19:09:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA29820 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA29815 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id TAA05389; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708150209.TAA05389@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: speed test References: Your message of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:07:44 PDT." <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <2890.871607713.kithrup.freebsd.chat@time.cdrom.com> you write: >The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it >yet. No, it's just resting. Remarkable architecture, the PowerPC. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 20:08:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02625 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saffron.fsl.noaa.gov (saffron.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02598 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by saffron.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01857; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:07:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33F3C7FC.4FDDCF81@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:07:40 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Eric Fagan CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test References: Your message of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:07:44 PDT." <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net> <199708150209.TAA05389@kithrup.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9E1FD518CA478BB3E676C32C" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9E1FD518CA478BB3E676C32C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > No, it's just resting. Remarkable architecture, the PowerPC. Beautiful busses. (Couldn't resist.) --------------9E1FD518CA478BB3E676C32C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Sean Kelly Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Sean Kelly n: Kelly;Sean org: CIRA/NOAA adr: NOAA/OAR/ERL/FSL/SDD R/E/FS4;;325 Broadway;Boulder;Colorado;80303;USA email;internet: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov title: Research Coordinator tel;work: 303.497.6247 tel;fax: 303.497.7256 tel;home: Yeah, right. x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE end: vcard --------------9E1FD518CA478BB3E676C32C-- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 20:54:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04331 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04323 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id XAA07698; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:54:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:54:08 -0400 Message-Id: <199708150354.XAA07698@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu CC: Studded@dal.net, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Annelise Anderson on Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:43:04 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Thus were created the shells and counted thus: sh, jsh, rsh, ksh, csh, > > tcsh, zsh, and bash, and from these their offspring, too numerous to > > count. And thus was never created a judge of shells, and the hackers > > shall choose as they see fit. > I love this, the whole thing. Thank you. (And if you want to reproduce it, go ahead; I hereby disclaim all copyrights, but I'd like to know if you make any changes.) >> The first time you use adduser, it might ask for some defaults to >> save. You might want to make the default shell csh instead of sh, if >> it suggests sh as the default. Otherwise just press enter to accept >> each default. You may want to say how to change this. >> Your shell is the most important part of your working environment. In >> DOS, the usual shell is command.com. The shell is what interprets the >> commands you type on the command line, and thus communicates with the >> rest of the operating system. These two sentances should be transposed; explain what the shell is, then give an example. >> Two shells come installed with FreeBSD: csh and sh. csh is good for >> command-line work, but scripts should be written with sh (or bash). >> You can find out what shell you have by typing echo $SHELL. 'echo $SHELL' should be quoted somehow. If this is in TeXinfo, use its @samp (or @code, as you deem appropriate), or use quotes if it's in ASCII, but it should be clear that the period is not part of the part to type. >> It allows you to recall commands with the arrow keys and edit them. It >> has tab-key completion of filenames (csh uses the escape key), and it >> lets you switch to the directory you were last in with cd -. It's Ditto. You may also want to provide a pointer to the USD that describes csh. >> Here are the three steps for installing a new shell: >> 1. Install the shell as a port or a package, just as you would any >> other port or package. Use rehash and which tcsh (assuming you're >> installing tcsh) to make sure it got installed. Reword last sentance. rehash is sometimes necessary with bash, although I haven't figured out when. >> 3. Use the chsh command to change your shell to tcsh permanently, or >> type tcsh at the prompt to change your shell without logging in again. Remember that this is not going to change other users' shells; they may each run chsh to do so. >> Note: Do not change root's shell. It must be either sh or csh, because >> otherwise you may not have a working shell when the system puts you >> into single user mode. When you use su -m to become root, you will >> have tcsh anyway, because the shell is part of the environment. I forget, is toor a default user? Since toor's shell can be changed. You describe a bit about tcsh and using it, but not bash. I'll write a parallel to bash if you like. Other than these few minor points, it looks good! -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 20:55:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04373 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (joelh@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04368 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id XAA07712; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:55:15 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:55:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199708150355.XAA07712@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jonc@pinnacle.co.nz CC: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, Studded@dal.net, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Jonathan Chen on Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:27:01 +1200 (NZST)) Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >Note: Do not change root's shell. It must be either sh or csh, because > > >otherwise you may not have a working shell when the system puts you > > >into single user mode. > Is this true? I've got tcsh as my root's shell, and when I `shutdown' > into single user, FreeBSD prompts me for the shell to use (in which > case I accept the default `sh'). Whenever you write, remember your target audience... in this case, rank newbies. Let's give them as few unnecessary prompts as possible. -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 22:08:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07953 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07915; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04457; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:07:30 +0200 (CEST) To: jackv@pacbell.net cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org, platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: speed test In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:07:44 PDT." <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:07:29 +0200 Message-ID: <4455.871621649@critter.dk.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That should be moderately easy: Grab lites and get moving... I somehow doubt that there are many Mac owners who are into UNIX ... Poul-Henning In message <33F373A0.E3209D0C@pacbell.net>, jack velte writes: >Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >> > > OK, so I had to go to an ALPHA to do it. ;-) >> > >> > which alpha? >> > >> > c'mon jordan, his is not alt.tasteless.freebsd.hackers :PPPPPPPPPPPP >> >> It's a DEC Durango motherboard with a 500Mhz 21164 CPU. I bought it >> from Aspen systems (www.aspsys.com) and it's currently running >> Netbsd-current as a reference platform for the FreeBSD/ALPHA effort >> which is slowly getting under way now. > >i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody >kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd >working as the kernel under the next version of MacOS (the Nextstep >derivative), you'll have a huge built-in audience of every installed Mac >user. Nextstep is finally a reason other than graphic arts to own a >Mac. Port FreeBSD and give the Mac people a choice. > >-jack -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 22:16:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA08402 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08385; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04627; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:15:29 +0200 (CEST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jackv@pacbell.net, chat@freebsd.org, platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: speed test In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:15:13 PDT." <2890.871607713@time.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:15:29 +0200 Message-ID: <4625.871622129@critter.dk.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <2890.871607713@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody >> kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd > >The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it >yet. > > Jordan I disagree, as long as RS/6000 is IBM's server platform, PowerPC will survive. And it isn't that bad actually... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 14 23:09:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA10771 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10766 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA17604; Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:06:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: Studded@dal.net, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Needed: Info on shells and script writing In-Reply-To: <199708150354.XAA07698@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > >> The first time you use adduser, it might ask for some defaults to > >> save. You might want to make the default shell csh instead of sh, if > >> it suggests sh as the default. Otherwise just press enter to accept > >> each default. > > You may want to say how to change this. I assume people will read the screen, and the tools that have been provided them are, in most cases, self-explanatory. I've added a sentence that explains that these defaults are saved in /etc/adduser.conf, an editable file. > > >> Two shells come installed with FreeBSD: csh and sh. csh is good for > >> command-line work, but scripts should be written with sh (or bash). > >> You can find out what shell you have by typing echo $SHELL. > > 'echo $SHELL' should be quoted somehow. If this is in TeXinfo, use > its @samp (or @code, as you deem appropriate), or use quotes if it's > in ASCII, but it should be clear that the period is not part of the > part to type. What you see above is the outcome of 1) markup in sgml; 2) conversion to html using "sgmlfmt -d docbook -f html filename"; 3) upload to my web page where I read it with lynx and mail it to myself; 4) export to a file for cleanup; 5) import into a mail message. So what you see is what a user who downloads the file as text (rather than html source) will actually get. By the time it gets to plain text, the formatting has been stripped. Actually, I'm beginning to think this sgml stuff is pretty cool. If you want to look at the html version, it's at http://andrsn.stanford.edu/FreeBSD/newuser.html, although not necessarily quite up to date. > >> Here are the three steps for installing a new shell: > >> 1. Install the shell as a port or a package, just as you would any > >> other port or package. Use rehash and which tcsh (assuming you're > >> installing tcsh) to make sure it got installed. > > Reword last sentance. rehash is sometimes necessary with bash, > although I haven't figured out when. My understanding is that sh and bash have an builtin "hash" command rather than a builtin "rehash" command. This is actually a bit of a problem; since the default shell for new users is now sh, whereas before it was csh, it is now necessary to cover both possibilities. I'm implicitly taking the position in this document that csh and tcsh are the appropriate shells for interactive work for new users. No doubt a case can be made for bash--perhaps on the grounds that it has the conveniences of tcsh etc. but uses more of the conventions (e.g., with respect to file descriptors) that one would use in writing sh shell scripts; and one should actually have to learn only one shell (plus its enhanced shell) rather than two, in the beginning. I.e., bash rather than tcsh will speed up the process of learning to write shell scripts. A good argument? Hash and rehash reread the files in the path. If you install a new version of a binary with the same name, it would be unnecessary. But otherwise it should be necessary. My experience (with tcsh) is that a rehash is necessary as root and again as "user" when one exits root (because root's environment, which has now changed, is not re-exported back to the user....maybe). Actually, I could say: don't live with sh, install bash, it does xyz. (And forget csh and tcsh for now.) I am reluctant to try to cover both, but actually I'd like to see a parallel paragraph on bash, especially especially if my above argument for it makes any sense. > I forget, is toor a default user? Since toor's shell can be changed. A toor account is installed with the system, if that's what you mean. Yes, root's shell can be changed; it might be dangerous to do so on other systems or earlier (I'm not sure how early) versions of FreeBSD. I have to rewrite this. > > You describe a bit about tcsh and using it, but not bash. I'll write > a parallel to bash if you like. I would like that....I think. :) Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 01:22:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA15342 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA15336 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA04290; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:22:23 -0700 (PDT) To: pechter@lakewood.com cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:59:31 EDT." <199708150159.VAA01767@i4got.lakewood.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:22:23 -0700 Message-ID: <4286.871633343@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Geez... should I quit doing AIX for a living? Damn, I sure as hell would - on any architecture! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 03:06:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA19030 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 03:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA19025 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 03:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA10914; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:35:35 +0800 (WST) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:35:35 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Bill Pechter cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <199708150159.VAA01767@i4got.lakewood.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Bill Pechter wrote: > Geez... should I quit doing AIX for a living? Erm, yes. *smile* -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 04:06:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA21318 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA21295; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA01636; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:01:06 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:01:06 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jackv@pacbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <2890.871607713@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody > > kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd > > The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it > yet. > Why would it be dead? The processors are not bad, neither are they end of lifecycle like the PPros and Pentium IIs. IBM and Motorola even have a roadmap (which they even seem to be keeping time/feature wise) what they want and will do with the processors. On the embedded side, there seems to be an abundance of choices, as are for the set-top box people. So why dead? Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 04:06:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA21359 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA21298; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA01482; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:50:55 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:50:54 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Michael Smith cc: jackv@pacbell.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <199708142357.JAA22210@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > jack velte stands accused of saying: > > > > > > It's a DEC Durango motherboard with a 500Mhz 21164 CPU. I bought it > > > from Aspen systems (www.aspsys.com) and it's currently running > > > Netbsd-current as a reference platform for the FreeBSD/ALPHA effort > > > which is slowly getting under way now. > > > > i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody > > kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd > > working as the kernel under the next version of MacOS (the Nextstep > > derivative), you'll have a huge built-in audience of every installed Mac > > user. Nextstep is finally a reason other than graphic arts to own a > > Mac. Port FreeBSD and give the Mac people a choice. > > Just as soon as Apple release documentation on their pathetic hardware. > > Not only is their gear proprietary, it's _slow_. I'd prefer to run > FreeBSD on a Multia. That is *why* you port not to apple hardware but to CHRP. As for slow - I don't really think the new CHRP machines are at least as quick as the Pentium II 300, if not quicker. See for example the machines on the Motorola Computer Group page... And no, I don't think I would spend my money on 24X SCSI CD-ROMS. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > > FWIW, MKlinux is a Linux server layered over Mach. There is a FreeBSD > server for Mach as well; why not just get that going? > > > -jack > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 08:18:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA01576 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA01568 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA12445; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:33:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id KAA26097; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:19:56 -0500 Message-ID: <19970815101956.13270@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:19:56 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: adrian@virginia.edu Cc: StevenR362@aol.com, SimsS@ibm.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD --- ALPHA References: <970814222009_-2074127211@emout14.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian T. Filipi-Martin on Aug 08, 1997 at 10:14:26AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Aug 08, 1997 at 10:14:26AM -0400, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 StevenR362@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Somebody should repost the J. Monroy and the motorcycle cowlings post > > too. I still chuckle over that one. > > > > Steve > > Or better yet, J. Monroy Sr.'s denunciation of J. Monroy Jr. > That was a real hoot. Deliberate mispellings and all. [ re-directed to -chat ] Hey, I missed that one. (not that I have any archived.) Are any archived anywhere? -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 08:38:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA02760 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (ken@mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02755 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ken@localhost) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19319; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:38:14 -0600 (MDT) From: Kenneth Merry Message-Id: <199708151538.JAA19319@pluto.plutotech.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD --- ALPHA In-Reply-To: <19970815101956.13270@right.PCS> from Jonathan Lemon at "Aug 15, 97 10:19:56 am" To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:38:14 -0600 (MDT) Cc: adrian@virginia.edu, StevenR362@aol.com, SimsS@ibm.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28s (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan Lemon wrote... > On Aug 08, 1997 at 10:14:26AM -0400, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 StevenR362@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Somebody should repost the J. Monroy and the motorcycle cowlings post > > > too. I still chuckle over that one. > > > > > > Steve > > > > Or better yet, J. Monroy Sr.'s denunciation of J. Monroy Jr. > > That was a real hoot. Deliberate mispellings and all. > > [ re-directed to -chat ] > > Hey, I missed that one. (not that I have any archived.) Are any archived > anywhere? Yes, check out: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/BSD-info/bsdnews_search.html I downloaded a ton of news articles from minnie a while back, and got a bunch of the classic JMonroy posts and JKH flames.. :) (I think I may have even gotten the one about "fairings".) Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@plutotech.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 08:55:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA03481 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03464; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA22928; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:49:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708151549.IAA22928@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: speed test To: phk@critter.dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:49:29 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jackv@pacbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4625.871622129@critter.dk.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Aug 15, 97 07:15:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it > >yet. > > I disagree, as long as RS/6000 is IBM's server platform, PowerPC will > survive. And it isn't that bad actually... I agree with Poul. I rather like the PPC. For one thing, it has a sane byte order. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 09:54:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06084 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.PII.COM (pii.com [192.77.209.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA06078 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PII.COM by PII.COM (4.1/SMI-4.4) id AA19936; Fri, 15 Aug 97 09:59:22 PDT Received: from PII-Message_Server by pii.com with Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:56:29 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:52:29 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: terry@lambert.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test -Reply Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Now we know which end of the egg Terry eats first. So will we be able to run OS/2 on our PowerPC, connected to the nearest MAU through a Micro-Channel card? Go Big Blue! [RC] >>> Terry Lambert 08/15/97 08:49am >>> > >The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it > >yet. > > I disagree, as long as RS/6000 is IBM's server platform, PowerPC will > survive. And it isn't that bad actually... I agree with Poul. I rather like the PPC. For one thing, it has a sane byte order. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 12:52:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA15655 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15649 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id NAA28368; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:51:20 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199708151951.NAA28368@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: speed test To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:51:15 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4286.871633343@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Aug 15, 97 01:22:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Damn, I sure as hell would - on any architecture! :-) Amen, brother. AIX and AIXwindows: IBM's aches and panes. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 13:28:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17763 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17755 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA06529 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:28:05 -0700 (PDT) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD --- ALPHA In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:35:36 MDT." Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:28:05 -0700 Message-ID: <6525.871676885@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That's it, I'm changing my name and moving to Irkutsk. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 15:17:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22206 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.PII.COM (pii.com [192.77.209.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22201 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PII.COM by PII.COM (4.1/SMI-4.4) id AA13076; Fri, 15 Aug 97 15:21:33 PDT Received: from PII-Message_Server by pii.com with Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:18:37 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:14:43 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD --- ALPHA -Reply Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I can see it now "The odd computer-tinker of Ikutsk.". [RC] >>> "Jordan K. Hubbard" 08/15/97 01:28pm >>> That's it, I'm changing my name and moving to Irkutsk. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 16:37:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25783 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25777; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:37:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199708152337.QAA25777@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD --- ALPHA To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Warner Losh" at Aug 15, 97 01:35:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh wrote: > > Act now! Limited time offer. Be one of only 25 people to own their > very own genuine black velvet rendition of jkh, complete with halo and > UV glow paint suitable for any private shrine to the master you wish > to setup! Don't miss your chance to get a genuine jkh gun! Makes > wonderful clicking noises when the chambers are empty to add to any > menical effect you wish to achieve. Or the jkh motorcycle faring. It > is like riding with nothing at all! black velvet paintings halo UV glow paint motorcycle elvis' birthday is tomorrow (?) jkh is the embodiment of ELVIS! jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 16:40:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26061 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polya.blah.org (slmel9p18.ozemail.com.au [203.7.187.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26035 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ada@localhost) by polya.blah.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) id JAA17844 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:39:46 +1000 (EST) From: Ada T Lim Message-Id: <199708152339.JAA17844@polya.blah.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD --- ALPHA In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Aug 15, 97 01:35:36 pm" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:39:46 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Act now! Limited time offer. Be one of only 25 people to own their > very own genuine black velvet rendition of jkh, complete with halo and Ohhhh.... I want... I _love_ velvet :) > UV glow paint suitable for any private shrine to the master you wish > to setup! Don't miss your chance to get a genuine jkh gun! Makes > wonderful clicking noises when the chambers are empty to add to any > menical effect you wish to achieve. Or the jkh motorcycle faring. It > is like riding with nothing at all! Where do I get it from? :) Ada > > Warner > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 17:06:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27513 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoke.marlboro.vt.us (smoke.marlboro.vt.us [198.206.215.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27507 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cgull@localhost) by smoke.marlboro.vt.us (8.8.7/8.8.7/cgull) id UAA05365; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708160005.UAA05365@smoke.marlboro.vt.us> From: john hood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Warner Losh Subject: Re: FreeBSD --- ALPHA In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under Emacs 19.34.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh writes: > Heh. Maybe it is time for a jkh rant shrine somewhere. Wayward > pilgrims on a rant, needing good, quality rant text to cut and past > can come here from across the planet. Rants everywhere will rise in > quality and will therefore be more enjoyable to read! Getting the > soft light, and nitch-like quality to the pictures of jkh on a good > rant for this shrine may take a bit of image-magic and sneakiness to > get the raw photos, but it would have a wonderful effect. Act now, > don't let the famous postings ("no fairings reply", "bang, bang, bang, > click click click") rot in bit rot due to sad neglect. > > Act now! Limited time offer. Be one of only 25 people to own their > very own genuine black velvet rendition of jkh, complete with halo and > UV glow paint suitable for any private shrine to the master you wish > to setup! Don't miss your chance to get a genuine jkh gun! Makes > wonderful clicking noises when the chambers are empty to add to any > menical effect you wish to achieve. Or the jkh motorcycle faring. It > is like riding with nothing at all! you've just nominated yourself to maintain said shrine, by way of writing the first oh-so-humble (and, i might add, belly-laugh-silly) Offering to the Rantgod... thanks. all of us in the FreeBSD project appreciate your selfless effort. --jh -- John Hood cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us Predictably, they all eventually wandered away, rubbing their bruises and brushing mud out of their hair. Some went off to work for the ESA, launching much smaller rockets into low orbits, while others elected to sit on their front porches drinking Jim Beam from the bottle and launching bottle rockets from the empties. [Jordan Hubbard] From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 19:10:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02163 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02137; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA05627; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:10:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:10:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD --- ALPHA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Warner Losh wrote: > [ moving this to chat.. ] > > : > Somebody should repost the J. Monroy and the motorcycle cowlings post > : Or better yet, J. Monroy Sr.'s denunciation of J. Monroy Jr. > : That was a real hoot. Deliberate mispellings and all. > > Heh. Maybe it is time for a jkh rant shrine somewhere. I could agree to that. I'm only worried we might be embarrssing Jordan enough to make him stop, and I wouldn't like that, I used to get a real laugh over watching Jordan go ballistic anytime J. Monroy made a post. I'd considered hunting him down and paying him to do that .... Wayward > pilgrims on a rant, needing good, quality rant text to cut and past > can come here from across the planet. Rants everywhere will rise in > quality and will therefore be more enjoyable to read! Getting the > soft light, and nitch-like quality to the pictures of jkh on a good > rant for this shrine may take a bit of image-magic and sneakiness to > get the raw photos, but it would have a wonderful effect. Act now, > don't let the famous postings ("no fairings reply", "bang, bang, bang, > click click click") rot in bit rot due to sad neglect. > > Act now! Limited time offer. Be one of only 25 people to own their > very own genuine black velvet rendition of jkh, complete with halo and > UV glow paint suitable for any private shrine to the master you wish > to setup! Don't miss your chance to get a genuine jkh gun! Makes > wonderful clicking noises when the chambers are empty to add to any > menical effect you wish to achieve. Or the jkh motorcycle faring. It > is like riding with nothing at all! > > Warner > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 20:23:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04815 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04810 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA27279; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:18:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:18:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708160318.VAA27279@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <13234.871558788@time.cdrom.com> References: <13234.871558788@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > I'm not sure what the bus speed is, but the memory width is 64 bit. > You have to use 8 SIMMS at a time with the Durango motherboard, > nothing smaller. Uh, no. The registers are 64 bits wide. If you use 8 SIMMS at a time, the memory bus width is 8x32 = 256 bits wide. Think in terms of refilling cache; you get to read 256 bits/cycle. This is pretty typical of high-end RISC processors, and one of the reasons why they're faster in real-world, multitasking use than PC systems with 32- and 64-bit wide memory buses. Of course, they cost a lot more, too. > > If so, then that alpha better not have cost more than 2000 UK pounds (or > > $2000 I suppose considering the price of hardware here.) > > It's less than that and remains a pretty good deal. Don't forget that > memory speed isn't the only benchmark it wins. :-) Can you say "floating point?" Sure, I knew you could. Actually, in terms of price/performance, FreeBSD/AXP would scare the pants off just about any system in the world. ;^) Is Carrera Computers still kicking around? A couple of years ago, they were busting up DEC's performance numbers with their AXP systems. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 20:56:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA05497 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05492 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id UAA12467; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:56:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708160356.UAA12467@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <199708160318.VAA27279.kithrup.freebsd.chat@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <13234.871558788@time.cdrom.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Can you say "floating point?" Sure, I knew you could. Actually, in >terms of price/performance, FreeBSD/AXP would scare the pants off just >about any system in the world. ;^) I know someone at Pixar (okay, the *only* person I know at Pixar :)) who would love to try FreeBSD/Alpha -- he loves FreeBSD, but needs the FP performance of the Alpha. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 21:32:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06454 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06445; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-201.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.201]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA28308; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:32:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA05664; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:30:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708160330.WAA05664@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: speed test In-reply-to: Message from Narvi of "Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:50:54 +0300." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:30:22 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Narvi writes: > > > Not only is their gear proprietary, it's _slow_. I'd prefer to run > > FreeBSD on a Multia. > > That is *why* you port not to apple hardware but to CHRP. As for slow - I > don't really think the new CHRP machines are at least as quick as the > Pentium II 300, if not quicker. See for example the machines on > the Motorola Computer Group page... I don't think Apple hardware is all that slow. What we are seeing lately is the MacOS has been terribly slow. System 7.6.1 runs apps much faster. System 8.0 is said to have similar performance gains. Apparently large portions of the system were (still are) emulated 68k code. Amazing. As for speed, my PowerCenter Pro 210 is cranking out 565k keys/sec running the 2.002 client from http://rc5.distributed.net. A FreeBSD P-133 is doing 160k, a FreeBSD 5x86/133-P75 is doing 120k. My SE/30 is doing 4k. Macintosh's are currently crunching 40% of the daily keys. And just pushed a Linux team out of the #1 spot. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 21:32:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06505 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06446; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-201.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.201]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA32624; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:32:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA05640; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:19:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708160319.WAA05640@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: speed test In-reply-to: Message from Poul-Henning Kamp of "Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:07:29 +0200." <4455.871621649@critter.dk.tfs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:19:02 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > That should be moderately easy: Grab lites and get moving... > > I somehow doubt that there are many Mac owners who are into UNIX ... I've always said, "Gimme a Mac, or gimme Unix, keep the half-baked poor excuse Microsoft boxes to yourself." Maybe I'm 3-sigma? When pushing virtual (or real) paper, nothing beats a Mac. For computing tasks, nothing beats Unix. I'm sysadmin for about 25 systems, half Sun, half SGI. Inherited a P-133 when somebody left for greener pastures. Wiped the HD's and put FreeBSD on it without even looking to see what was on the HD before. All of my work email is forwarded to the FreeBSD box, and read with Eudora on the SE/30. The P-133 is better at Netscape as it has a color monitor. Recently purchased a new Power Computing PowerCenter Pro 210. What a nice machine! Am really looking forward to the next issue of MacUser with the BeOS CDROM. Is said to have POSIX/Unix compatibility, including bash and other tools. And MacOS-incompatible. :-( Oh well, that's why I purchased a 4G HD. Then I read BeOS doesn't support the SCSI card the 4G HD is attached to. :-( (ever hear of an Adaptec 2930?) So I upgraded a 5x86/133-P75 FreeBSD box with another 4G HD tonight, freeing a 510M HD for BeOS on the PCPro's external SCSI bus. At home I'm not quite happy with exmh. Have been thinking a lot about putting this good Viewsonic PT770 monitor on my old Mac IIvx, using this FreeBSD system as a modem server (and other things with netatalk). And go back to good old Eudora over ethernet. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 15 21:33:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06584 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06577 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA14068; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:02:36 +0800 (WST) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:02:36 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <199708160356.UAA12467@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > >Can you say "floating point?" Sure, I knew you could. Actually, in > >terms of price/performance, FreeBSD/AXP would scare the pants off just > >about any system in the world. ;^) > > I know someone at Pixar (okay, the *only* person I know at Pixar :)) who > would love to try FreeBSD/Alpha -- he loves FreeBSD, but needs the FP > performance of the Alpha. Erm. Last time I heard FreeBSD/Alpha hasn't gotten off the ground. :) Please tell me I'm wrong, I have a 233Mhz Alpha XL, a 233Mhz multia and a couple of 166Mhz Multia's that are meant to have arrived a couple months ago :) Cya -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 00:08:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11494 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA11487; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA25946; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 17:07:34 +1000 From: Greg Lehey Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id QAA05915; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:37:32 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708160707.QAA05915@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <2890.871607713@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Aug 14, 97 06:15:13 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:37:32 +0930 (CST) Cc: jackv@pacbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: >> i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody >> kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd > > The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it > yet. JOOI, what hardware does Deep Blue have? What software? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 02:26:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA14930 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from css.tuu.utas.edu.au (acs@css.tuu.utas.edu.au [131.217.115.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA14912; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:26:26 -0700 (PDT) From: andrew@ugh.net.au Received: from localhost (acs@localhost) by css.tuu.utas.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17914; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:26:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: depravitas.tuu.utas.edu.au: acs owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:26:22 +1000 (EST) To: dkelly@hiwaay.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <199708160319.WAA05640@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: X-Meaning-of-Life: none X-WonK: *wibble* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > I somehow doubt that there are many Mac owners who are into UNIX ... > > I've always said, "Gimme a Mac, or gimme Unix, keep the half-baked poor > excuse Microsoft boxes to yourself." Maybe I'm 3-sigma? Mac users are far more likely to use UNIX. After all they recognised one brilliant computer system...why not another? :-) Andrew From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 02:56:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA15875 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod4.logic.it [195.120.151.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA15848 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 665 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Aug 1997 09:53:57 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:53:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it Reply-To: Marco Molteni To: chat@freebsd.org cc: Nik Clayton , Andrew ? , Amancio Hasty , Sean Kelly , E Lakin , "Mike O'Brien" Subject: SUMMARY: Apple Newton MessagePad Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I really like -chat ! ;-) Thanks to everybody who replied. I wrote: [..] > I found the Apple Newton MessagePad, which seems pretty cool: > > 1. LCD display sufficiently wide > 2. interfaceable to a PC > 3. handwritten recognition > 4. real keyboard > > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? There are two fronts here on -chat: - those who suggested the USRobotics Palm Pilot - those who suggested the Apple Newton MessagePad 2000 I choosed the Newton, because for what _I_ am going to do, the Palm Pilot is too small. Anyway, I think the Palm Pilot is a very good toy too, especially for the price. If someone is interested in PDAs or Windows CEs and similar, the august issue of Byte Magazine has a (biased :-( ) report: "Hand-Helds get serious", in which they compare 10 hand-helds, from the MessagePad to the HP 320LX to the Philips Velo 1 to the Palm Pilot. I think you can find the article also online (www.byte.com). Here I'm reporting some of the replies (edited to save space) to my original posting, including comments, comparisons between the MessagePad and the Palm Pilot and useful pointers to free software (also for UNIX platforms!) to develop programs for both the MessagePad and the Palm Pilot. Thanks again to the wonderfully "not normal" people on -chat. -------- Regarding the Newton MessagePad: -------- > From: andrew@ugh.net.au > Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad > > > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? > > http://www.newton.apple.com/product_info/product_info.html has links > to all the Newton based products (not just Apples) > Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:03:14 -0700 > From: Mike O'Brien > Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad > > I have a MessagePad 2000 and I love it. I think that the > high-end Newtons and the PalmPilot have mildly overlapping markets, > but both have large areas where the other doesn't compete. The 2K > is really a full-fledged computer with a weird operational style. > It's not a notebook and it doesn't do what a Notebook would do, but > it can compute with the best of them. It serves me well as a > general engine that I can carry around easily, and it also does me > as a nice-sized notepad. It does everything for me that a PalmPilot > would, though it does it mildly less gracefully and with a much > larger form factor. But, for instance, it also has all sorts of > other packages available for it, including one special-purpose > number for datacollection on geysers, a favorite subject of mine. > > The PalmPilot's job is to do a few portable things well, and > be really really portable. Period. It does this brilliantly, and > this is what most people prefer, so PalmPilot outsells Newton at > least 10-to-1, maybe 100-to-1. I have no complaints. > > Well, one. Apple and their (^(*&^*(& closed architecture. > They publish (binary) libraries to allow people to write applications > for Windows and the Mac that interface to a Newton. However, if you're > on a UNIX box, forget it. Someone's managed to reverse-engineer > enough to get a package installer working under Linux but that's > about it. > From: E Lakin > Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad > > There is also a unix interface for the Newton - although i haven't > got it compiled yet. It's at http://www.tcel.com/~aehall/newtl/ > From: nik@iii.co.uk > Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad > > > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? > > When I (finally) get my own FreeBSD home box I'm going to spend some > time working on a Newton DB for typically 'Unixy' information. I > envisage being able to wander around the office inspecting the > various bits of hardware on the network and scrawling (literally) > the information into a DB on the Newt. I should then be able to come > back to my desk, hook it up to my Unix box and run some scripts to > produce things like named maps and other host tables, web pages that > outline what's where, /etc/aliases and so on and so forth. > From: E Lakin > Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad > > On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > ? The only problems I have with it are > ? > ? a) You have to shell out cash to get the programming > ? environment. I'd prefer Apple to offer a bare bones > ? environment for the hobbyist for free > > actually, NTK (the newton toolkit) was just recently made free. you > can download it at http://www.newton.apple.com/dev/. Both a windows > & macOS version are available (no freebsd tho ;). -------- Regarding the US Robotics Palm Pilot: -------- > Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 10:39:42 -0700 > From: Sean Kelly > > > Any comment about this toy or suggestions about similar ones ? > > I'm partial to the PalmPilot, from US Robotics. It lacks a lot of > features compared to the latest Newtons or Windows CE (whatever the > heck that means) palm computers, but it's cheap, does what I need, > and fits in my shirt pocket, which no other palm computer can boast. > So far. > From: Sean Kelly > Subject: Re: Apple Newton MessagePad > > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Same here plus I like the PalmPilot. I think that there is a unix > > interface for it. > > Aye. At ftp://ryeham.ee.rverson.ca/pub/PalmOS is a collection of > FreeBSD-compatible utlities that I use both at home and at work to > talk to my PalmPilot. Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "This snakeskin jacket symbolizes my individuality and belief in personal freedom". From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 03:58:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA19244 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA19239 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 4396 on Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:58:46 GMT; id KAA04396 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: UNKNOWN Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00402; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:28:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970816122835.64683@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:28:35 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test References: <199708160330.WAA05664@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <199708160330.WAA05664@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Fri, Aug 15, 1997 at 10:30:22PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dkelly@hiwaay.net shared with us: > Narvi writes: > > > > > Not only is their gear proprietary, it's _slow_. I'd prefer to run > > > FreeBSD on a Multia. > > > > That is *why* you port not to apple hardware but to CHRP. As for slow - I > > don't really think the new CHRP machines are at least as quick as the > > Pentium II 300, if not quicker. See for example the machines on > > the Motorola Computer Group page... > > I don't think Apple hardware is all that slow. What we are seeing > lately is the MacOS has been terribly slow. System 7.6.1 runs apps > much faster. System 8.0 is said to have similar performance gains. > Apparently large portions of the system were (still are) emulated > 68k code. Amazing. (Hitting 'return' once in a while wouldn't hurt, you know.) No, it's not that amazing. MacOS is a mess in the way it is written. I don't have this from my own experience, but it's a bit weird to be checking the serial port when you're reading from the floppy disk. But then again, a byte might come in and you would have missed that. It's far more easier to port FreeBSD to Alpha than to port MacOS to PPC. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 04:57:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA20539 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from logic.it (mod4.logic.it [195.120.151.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA20534 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1382 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Aug 1997 11:55:58 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:55:57 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: About the Apple-Microsoft Deal Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoting from the cover page of TIME, 18 August 1997: "Bill, thank you. The world's a better place" - Steve Jobs talking to Bill Gates by cell phone last week about saving Apple. My god. I don't know if I should laugh or if I should cry. My "stream of consciousness" :-) about it: - George Orwell's 1984. How long do we have to wait? 2004 ? - Phil Zimmermann's PGP. Thanks Phil for your battle. I'm afraid we will need it. Yes, I know, european countries (I'm from Italy) are inventing things as dumb (or should I use another adjective?) as the US Clipper. Hmmm, maybe I just had a nightmare. I hope I'll wake up soon in a sunny world where the only Big Brother is the network utility (http://www.iti.qc.ca/iti/users/sean/) ;-) Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "This snakeskin jacket symbolizes my individuality and belief in personal freedom". From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 05:17:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA20920 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA20915 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27288; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 07:29:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199708161129.HAA27288@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <19970815222430.43082@grendel.IAEhv.nl> from Peter Korsten at "Aug 15, 97 10:24:30 pm" To: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl (Peter Korsten) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 07:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (This message probably belongs on another mailing list.) OK, how about -chat? > Jordan K. Hubbard shared with us: > > > i urge a port to Macintosh Power PC. the next generation rhapsody > > > kernel 3.0 is now based on the MKLinux kernel. if you can get freebsd > > > > The PowerPC architecture is dead dead dead. It just doesn't know it > > yet. Hmm... Between IBM workstations, Apple PCs, and IBM and Moto embedded controllers the PowerPC *architecture* looks to me like it has more staying power than Alpha. Last I knew Ford was going to use PPC as their engine controller. Can anyone guess how many PPC architecture versus Alpha architecture chips ship? I'll just arbitrarily guess 15:1. I'll bet if someone FUNDED a port to the PPC the future would brighten from Jordan's viewpoint. > Actually, there are two business where the Macintosh is the leading > platform: graphics and music (MIDI sequencing, harddisk recording > and sound processing). And education and publishing. My brother-in-law (a freelance editor) was visiting a few weeks back and a bigger book publisher sent him a PowerBook so that he would work on that instead of Windows. > HP stopped building it's own processors When? Intel and HP are working to combine the snake architecture with the Pentium; hence the DEC-Intel lawsuit. > , next is either Motorola or SGI (MIPS). I don't think so. What will go in the N64? If SGI tubes than MIPS is in trouble. > Alpha seems like the most safe bet at the moment, > because they're way faster than Intel at the time. (press fingers to forehead and close eyes) "When Dec is purchased by Microsoft early next year to become their service and system integration division that will be the end of the Alpha". ("Solution providers? We don't need no stinkin' solution providers (*kick* to the temple)") Microsoft will then spin off the hardware side of DEC to wither and die, so as not to worry all the companies killing each other to be Microsoft's low margin hardware division. Remember: you heard it here on freebsd-chat first. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 09:24:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA29400 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (sprice@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29386 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA07775 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:24:05 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:24:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Price To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: motorcycle fairings Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi All, Here is a brief intermission giving ode to a few of Jordan's finer rants relating to Jesus Monroy Jr. Frist an interesting response to one of Jesus's many QIC NEWS postings: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?19280 And now for the moment many have been waiting for. The first url is the original post by Jesus and the second is Jordan's infamous "motorcycles fairings" rant. http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?24752 http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?24772 Sorry folks, I couldn't resist. I know I should be off closing PRs or something, but I just had to find the one about the motorcycle fairings. :) Enjoy, Steve PS: I hope Jordan isn't too mad that I dug these up. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 09:39:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00105 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29980; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00262; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:39:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:39:03 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: andrew@ugh.net.au cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 16 Aug 1997 andrew@ugh.net.au wrote: > On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > > I somehow doubt that there are many Mac owners who are into UNIX ... > > > > I've always said, "Gimme a Mac, or gimme Unix, keep the half-baked poor > > excuse Microsoft boxes to yourself." Maybe I'm 3-sigma? > > Mac users are far more likely to use UNIX. After all they recognised one > brilliant computer system...why not another? :-) Further evidence lies in the job descriptions of computer support staff around here: we have Windows support people, and we have Mac/Unix support people. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 10:06:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00894 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00889 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA11952; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Steve Price cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: motorcycle fairings In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:24:05 CDT." Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:06:29 -0700 Message-ID: <11948.871751189@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > PS: I hope Jordan isn't too mad that I dug these up. Naw, I'm just glad that the whole "Usenet spam olympics" thing passed by with very little comment (10 extra points if you can find the contrite disclaimer I sent to those approx 8000 people after the referenced event. ;-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 11:09:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03360 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wall.jhs.no_domain (vector.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03265; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from desk.jhs.no_domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by desk.jhs.no_domain (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02831; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:05:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> To: dkelly@hiwaay.net cc: chat@freebsd.org, platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: speed test From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Email: Home: Lists: Work (firewall blocks incoming): X-web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ X-address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany X-tel: Home +49.89.268616, Work +49.89.607.29788 Fax +49.89.2608126, Data +49.89.26023276 X-company: Vector Systems Ltd, Unix & Internet Consultants. X-software: FreeBSD (Unix) + EXMH 1.6.9 (PGP key on web) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:19:02 CDT." <199708160319.WAA05640@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:05:46 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Reference: > From: dkelly@hiwaay.net > Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:19:02 -0500 > Message-id: <199708160319.WAA05640@nospam.hiwaay.net> Hi, dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > > > That should be moderately easy: Grab lites and get moving... > > > > I somehow doubt that there are many Mac owners who are into UNIX ... > > I've always said, "Gimme a Mac, or gimme Unix, keep the half-baked poor excus > e Microsoft boxes to yourself." Maybe I'm 3-sigma? What does "3-sigma" mean in English ? (I'm English not American, perhaps others were puzzled too ?) Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 11:42:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04708 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04702; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wznne-0002cF-00; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:42:10 -0600 To: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: speed test Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@freebsd.org, platforms@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:05:46 +0200." <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> References: <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:42:09 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> "Julian H. Stacey" writes: : What does "3-sigma" mean in English ? : (I'm English not American, perhaps others were puzzled too ?) Three standard deviations away from the average. Generally used to connote being on the cutting edge. << 1% of the sample space is 3 sigma away from the average. Warner From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 12:08:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06095 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de (blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06072 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous228.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.228]) by blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA22273 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:08:47 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA01691; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:49:04 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:49:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199708161849.UAA01691@panke.panke.de> From: Wolfram Schneider To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: abuse@aol.com mailbox full ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Received: from localhost (localhost) by mrin72.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with internal id OAA24498; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708161827.OAA24498@mrin72.mail.aol.com> Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) X-UIDL: ad6fd88dd5dabf1382339b7a81bcf73d Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:27:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable To: The original message was received at Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:27:32 -0400 (EDT) from blues.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.18] If your mail was returned due to a potentially misspelled AOL e-mail address, we may be able to assist you in finding the correct address. Point your WWW browser at http://www.idot.aol.com/search/ Here you will find instructions and a simple form to help you locate the email address you are looking for! NOTE: we cannot and will not divulge private information about members. Please only use the search resource if you believe that you may have misspelled a member's e-mail address. -AOL Postmaster ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mrin63.mail.aol.com.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 552 abuse mailbox full 554 ... Service unavailable -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 12:33:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07162 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07148 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id PAA29368; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id PAA16118; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:33:27 -0400 (EDT) To: Wolfram Schneider cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: abuse@aol.com mailbox full ;-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:49:04 +0200." <199708161849.UAA01691@panke.panke.de> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:33:27 -0400 Message-ID: <16116.871760007@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wolfram Schneider wrote in message ID <199708161849.UAA01691@panke.panke.de>: > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... while talking to mrin63.mail.aol.com.: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 552 abuse mailbox full > 554 ... Service unavailable abuse@aol.com is (or was, at least) a luser with a *very* poor choice of username. AOL abuse issues should go to abuse@aol.net. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 13:10:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08336 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08331 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id NAA05843; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708162010.NAA05843@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: abuse@aol.com mailbox full ;-) References: Your message of "Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:49:04 +0200." <199708161849.UAA01691@panke.panke.de> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <16116.871760007.kithrup.freebsd.chat@orion.webspan.net> Gary Palmer writes: >abuse@aol.com is (or was, at least) a luser with a *very* poor choice >of username. AOL abuse issues should go to abuse@aol.net. No, you're confusing MSN -- some user chose a username of "abuse@msn", back before "abuse" was in terribly widespread use. This has since changed -- I believe abuse@msn.{com,net} is uSoft now, not some user. abuse@aol.com is, however, a fairly standard AOL mailbox, with all of the limits that entails. The correct address is abuse@aol.net, because it has much higher limits. I'll point out that, if you used John Levine's excellent abuse.net remailer (e.g., aol.com@abuse.net), this would have been handled automatically. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 13:10:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08368 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kani.wwa.com (kani.wwa.com [198.49.174.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA08362; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 205.243.69.159/pool3-015.rkfd.wwa.com [205.243.69.144] by kani.wwa.com with esmtp (Smail3.2.WWA) id m0wzpBF-004pLkC; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:10:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <33F609E4.4E5D9A6C@flask.com> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:13:46 -0500 From: Shin Katsumata Reply-To: skat@flask.com Organization: Flask Productions X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Julian H. Stacey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Reference: > > From: dkelly@hiwaay.net > > Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:19:02 -0500 > > Message-id: <199708160319.WAA05640@nospam.hiwaay.net> > > Hi, > dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > > > > > That should be moderately easy: Grab lites and get moving... > > > > > > I somehow doubt that there are many Mac owners who are into UNIX > ... > > > > I've always said, "Gimme a Mac, or gimme Unix, keep the half-baked > poor excus > > e Microsoft boxes to yourself." Maybe I'm 3-sigma? > > What does "3-sigma" mean in English ? > (I'm English not American, perhaps others were puzzled too ?) > 1 - sigma is 68.26% of population2 - sigma is 95.44% 3 - sigma is 99.74% (for those of you who wants to argue, I am getting the number out of a table for Normal Curve Area for 0 to z and I multiplied the number by 2). To translate "3-sigma" to semi-English (English is my second language, ok?), he may be one of 0.13% of population to want either Mac or unix: (100 - 99.74)/2.0. Shin From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 13:34:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09239 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (root@po1.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09209; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from divot.eng.umd.edu (crb@divot.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.194]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05845; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by divot.eng.umd.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01507; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:34:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: divot.eng.umd.edu: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:34:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" X-Sender: crb@divot.eng.umd.edu To: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 16 Aug 1997, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Reference: > > From: dkelly@hiwaay.net > > Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:19:02 -0500 > > Message-id: <199708160319.WAA05640@nospam.hiwaay.net> > > Hi, > dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > > > > > That should be moderately easy: Grab lites and get moving... > > > > > > I somehow doubt that there are many Mac owners who are into UNIX ... > > > > I've always said, "Gimme a Mac, or gimme Unix, keep the half-baked poor excus > > e Microsoft boxes to yourself." Maybe I'm 3-sigma? > > What does "3-sigma" mean in English ? > (I'm English not American, perhaps others were puzzled too ?) > If I remember correctly 3-sigma is esstentially a short-hand for 1 in a million. It derives from statistics where given a gaussian (bell) distribution, the probability of anything outside 3 sigma (sigma is a ususally the standard deviation) from the average is like .999997 or something close to that, which is basically 1 in a million. Motorola was big into this basing their near zero defect quality project on this catch phrase. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@Glue.umd.edu My home page From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 14:58:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12547 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12541 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id AAA17395; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 00:56:11 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199708162156.AAA17395@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: speed test In-Reply-To: from Stephen Roome at "Aug 14, 97 12:12:55 pm" To: steve@visint.co.uk (Stephen Roome) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 00:56:11 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1) whats the blocksize got to do with the number.. > i.e. if you use smaller blocksize does it not go through main > memory and only touch cache ? 128k should do that. but i got fasterspeeds with 1m > 3) I've seen stuff on these lists implying that xxx000000 bytes/second > counts as xxxMB/s. It's almost like we're selling hard drives, advertising > size or speed in terms of decimal MB instead of real MB. guilty as charged. :| i'll sulk for a day and turn one machine from windows to freebsd... :p (not my machine since i already run just freebsd) mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 15:45:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13954 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [204.146.168.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA13949 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Sat, 16 Aug 97 18:45:09 EDT Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970816184530.0097f430@psynet.com> X-Sender: theta@psynet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 18:45:30 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Robert Martin Subject: Spam harassment from a FreeBSD machine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk WARNING: THIS MESSAGE CONTAINS EXTREME PROFANITY I got some of the strangest spams this week. I especially liked this one. When I telneted to port 25 on the spamming system I attempted to relay a message. I got this: RCPT TO: 571 ... I have a 5 inch d*ld* in my *ss That sure is an interesting implementation of anti-relay rules. Maybe Spamford has gone crazy. Probably not. Spammers are getting crazier, or as this spammer says in another message, KRAZIEER. Port 23 was just a regular FreeBSD login screen. Am I the only one to get this? SOME PROFANITY EDITED OUT: Subject: I am not From: Kot Orbo Received: from server2.iamsogreat.com (1Cust30.max14.newark.nj.ms.uu.net [153.34.67.158]) by stimpy.globecomm.net (8.8.7/8.8.0) with ESMTP id XAA25838 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by server2.iamsogreat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05883; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by server2.iamsogreat.com (bulk_mailer v1.6); Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:21:41 -0400 To: undisclosed-recipients:; Reply-To: sanford1@bellatlantic.net Message-ID: X-UIDL: 929f4ceba9e5a33b0049b4f54b32e932 Lines: 21 Xref: MJF.VIP.BEST.CO incoming:1006 I am a N()T a FREEK. I ALMO$T HAd $EX ONCE. SO FUCK YOU DICKLESS C*NT WHO NEVER EVEN ALMOST HAD $EX. BETH THOUGHT she WERE SO HOT WITH ALL she FRIENDS AND PARTIES AND SEX AND STUFF, BUT NOW LOOK WHO IS LAFFING AT her. EVERYBODY, ITS NOT ME THAT IS THE PROBLEM. BETH IS THE PROBLEM. PEOPLE LIKE HER MAKE PEOPLE LIKE US MAD. REMEMBER THAT TIME I OFFERED TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU AND YOU LAFFED TO MY FACE. LOOK WHO IS LAFFING NOW. HA HA HA HA HA HA. SEE WHI I THNK http://153.34.67.158 TELNET 153.34.67.158 telnet 153.34.67.158 25 ROOT PASSWORD: Kfd832Xwa THANK YOU f***, sanford1@bellatlantic.net From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 16:15:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15126 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15115 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id QAA14258; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:15:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199708162315.QAA14258@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Spam harassment from a FreeBSD machine In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970816184530.0097f430.kithrup.freebsd.chat@psynet.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <3.0.2.32.19970816184530.0097f430.kithrup.freebsd.chat@psynet.com> you write: >That sure is an interesting implementation of anti-relay rules. Maybe >Spamford has gone crazy. Probably not. Spammers are getting crazier, or >as this spammer says in another message, KRAZIEER. > >Port 23 was just a regular FreeBSD login screen. > >Am I the only one to get this? No, you are not the only one (although I haven't, yet). It is a UUNET customer. Complain to uu.net@abuse.net. Prepare for them to do nothing. Call uunet monday and ask what is being done about it. Yes, it's a freebsd system; I sent a notice about it to Jordan earlier. It sucks. (On the other hand, cyberpromo [delenda est!] runs BSD/OS, and BSDi folks are pretty depressed at that. Nothing they, or we, can do. Well. Not really.) I don't know who he is. People are trying to figure that out. He will be dealt with eventually, I suspect -- although if you see an announcement by me saying it's time to black hole uunet, DO IT. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 21:19:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02316 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02311 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA26233; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:19:04 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA05389; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:49:03 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970817134903.20400@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:49:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Marco Molteni Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About the Apple-Microsoft Deal References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Marco Molteni on Sat, Aug 16, 1997 at 01:55:57PM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 16, 1997 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Marco Molteni wrote: > Quoting from the cover page of TIME, 18 August 1997: > > "Bill, thank you. The world's a better place" > - Steve Jobs talking to Bill Gates by cell phone last week about > saving Apple. Well, Jobs was always a good bullshit artist. But it's sad that Time should carry that message. I think I'll cancel my subscription. > Hmmm, maybe I just had a nightmare. I hope I'll wake up soon in a > sunny world where the only Big Brother is the network utility > (http://www.iti.qc.ca/iti/users/sean/) ;-) Too late. They've nuked the site: === grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp8) ~/Mail 54 -> ping www.iti.qc.ca PING inet-gw-0.EY.CA (132.220.23.1): 56 data bytes 36 bytes from sobeco-gw.montreal.uunet.ca (142.77.11.254): Destination Host Unreachable Vr HL TOS Len ID Flg off TTL Pro cks Src Dst 4 5 00 5400 26cf 0 0000 ee 01 f5f4 139.130.136.133 132.220.23.1 Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 21:55:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA04875 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04870 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA14981 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:55:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from parka.winternet.com(198.174.169.9) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma014973; Sat, 16 Aug 97 23:55:04 -0500 Received: from localhost (ihc@localhost) by parka.winternet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA20518 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:55:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: parka.winternet.com: ihc owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:55:03 -0500 (CDT) From: inghaw To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: About the Apple-Microsoft Deal In-Reply-To: <19970817134903.20400@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk my demented scoop: maybe this has been said, i haven't been keeping up on this one, but i bet gates kept apple alive as his excuse to antitrust suits. "see? there's competition for ya..." and plus, as one of the largest shareholders now, he'll make money whenever the competition does. (: --inghaw On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, Aug 16, 1997 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Marco Molteni wrote: > > Quoting from the cover page of TIME, 18 August 1997: > > > > "Bill, thank you. The world's a better place" > > - Steve Jobs talking to Bill Gates by cell phone last week about > > saving Apple. > > Well, Jobs was always a good bullshit artist. But it's sad that Time > should carry that message. I think I'll cancel my subscription. > > > Hmmm, maybe I just had a nightmare. I hope I'll wake up soon in a > > sunny world where the only Big Brother is the network utility > > (http://www.iti.qc.ca/iti/users/sean/) ;-) > > Too late. They've nuked the site: > > === grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp8) ~/Mail 54 -> ping www.iti.qc.ca > PING inet-gw-0.EY.CA (132.220.23.1): 56 data bytes > 36 bytes from sobeco-gw.montreal.uunet.ca (142.77.11.254): Destination Host Unreachable > Vr HL TOS Len ID Flg off TTL Pro cks Src Dst > 4 5 00 5400 26cf 0 0000 ee 01 f5f4 139.130.136.133 132.220.23.1 > > Greg > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 22:32:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07244 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA07223; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA03360; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:30:48 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA06386; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:00:35 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970817150033.65486@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:00:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Warner Losh Cc: "Julian H. Stacey" , dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test References: <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Warner Losh on Sat, Aug 16, 1997 at 12:42:09PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 16, 1997 at 12:42:09PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> "Julian H. Stacey" writes: >> What does "3-sigma" mean in English ? >> (I'm English not American, perhaps others were puzzled too ?) > > Three standard deviations away from the average. Generally used to > connote being on the cutting edge. That's a rather arbitary interpretation, isn't it? What about the trailing edge? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 16 22:32:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07273 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA07252; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA03398; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:31:40 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA06394; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:01:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970817150137.64846@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:01:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Christopher R. Bowman" Cc: "Julian H. Stacey" , dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: speed test References: <199708161005.MAA02831@desk.jhs.no_domain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Christopher R. Bowman on Sat, Aug 16, 1997 at 04:34:01PM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 16, 1997 at 04:34:01PM -0400, Christopher R. Bowman wrote: > On Sat, 16 Aug 1997, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >> Reference: >>> From: dkelly@hiwaay.net >>> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:19:02 -0500 >>> Message-id: <199708160319.WAA05640@nospam.hiwaay.net> >> >> Hi, >> dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: >>> Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >>>> >>>> That should be moderately easy: Grab lites and get moving... >>>> >>>> I somehow doubt that there are many Mac owners who are into UNIX ... >>> >>> I've always said, "Gimme a Mac, or gimme Unix, keep the half-baked poor excus >>> e Microsoft boxes to yourself." Maybe I'm 3-sigma? >> >> What does "3-sigma" mean in English ? >> (I'm English not American, perhaps others were puzzled too ?) >> > > If I remember correctly 3-sigma is esstentially a short-hand for 1 in a > million. It derives from statistics where given a gaussian (bell) > distribution, the probability of anything outside 3 sigma (sigma is a ususally > the standard deviation) from the average is like .999997 or something > close to that, which is basically 1 in a million. Motorola was big into > this basing their near zero defect quality project on this catch > phrase. Didn't Moto have a 7-sigma goal? Greg