From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 02:11:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05610 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 02:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05582; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 02:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21890; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:11:35 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:11:35 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Gary Palmer cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Possible problem with wait syscall handling... In-Reply-To: <29457.906852805@gjp.erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 Sep 1998, Gary Palmer wrote: > Doug Rabson wrote in message ID > : > > I thought you were seeing memory fault panics in execve? Were you having > > the hang effect too? > > Yep. A couple of times I couldn't get console back, and could ping the box, > and get a connection accepted, but then nothing. Its POSSIBLE that the execve > problem was causing this, because I didn't have remote gdb hooked up 'cos it > had been stable for so long. I don't think the execve problem could have caused that. The box would have been sitting in DDB after a panic and couldn't have responded to a ping. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 04:53:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22801 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA22749 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:52:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA27812 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:52:47 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:52:47 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: New kernel available Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have just uploaded a new GENERIC alpha kernel to http://www.freebsd.org/~dfr. This kernel should detect the disk which was booted and select the root partition from that disk (no need for a separate .da1 version). It also contains fixes for the axppci33 platform (including Multias and UDBs) which work on at least one system. Your mileage may vary. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 06:46:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01768 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 06:46:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gjp.erols.com (alex-va-n008c079.moon.jic.com [206.156.18.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01755 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 06:46:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) Received: from gjp.erols.com (gjp@localhost.erols.com [127.0.0.1]) by gjp.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10922; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:46:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Doug Rabson cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Possible problem with wait syscall handling... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:11:35 BST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:46:34 -0400 Message-ID: <10918.906903994@gjp.erols.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Rabson wrote in message ID : > I don't think the execve problem could have caused that. The box would > have been sitting in DDB after a panic and couldn't have responded to a > ping. Hrm. True. Although, as I said, I don't know what state the machine was in, as I had't kept the serial console up and remote gdb wasn't giving me anything useful. Its possible that the execve problem was something that started happening when I was pushing the machine to see why it was hanging. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 12:10:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00820 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00813 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:10:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06061; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:10:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd006051; Sun Sep 27 12:10:07 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25729; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:10:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199809271910.MAA25729@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: one other thing... To: gibbs@plutotech.com (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, ken@plutotech.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, gibbs@plutotech.com, imp@plutotech.com In-Reply-To: <199809262307.RAA14553@pluto.plutotech.com> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Sep 26, 98 05:00:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Be careful with this. This is intentional. Enabling caching will > >make the disk respond that it has committed the write to stable > >storage, when it fact it has not. > > Really? I didn't know that the write cache had that effect. Fascinating. If the write operation returns, and the little magnetic domains don't contain your data yet, then this is generally the effect you can expect. > >If you do not get power fail notification of some kind, then there > >is no way to guarantee that your disk can be recovered to the state > >that it was supposed to be in (as opposed to merely being recovered > >to a consistent state). > > Although I've never seen this happen on any of the disks I have here, > yes, it could happen. The chances of it happening, due to the small > size of the cache on most disks, the fact that most drives will commit > the write to non-volatile storage as soon as possible, etc. make your > chances pretty good. Certainly better than if you were running async > mounts. But worse than if you weren't enabling write caching. BTW, this probability argument is the same argument that EXT2FS advocates use to justfy that FS's behaviour... > >It is much better to turn *off* write caching, and use soft updates > >(which also, technically, does it's own write caching), rather than > >enabling it on the drive. > > My systems don't usually panic. Why? I don't use soft updates, yet. Or CAM? And you've fixed the three known VM bugs? And you never run your system out of swap? And you aren't using NFS? And... And... > Soft Updates is not a replacement for the on disk cache. The two > serve very different purposes. One reduces the number of writes > to the device, the other reduces the number of writes committed by > the device to the disk and reduces latency for any device writes that > the OS believes are necessary. Soft update reduces the number of writes to the device. And because it does implicit write gathering, there is little or no room for the disk to further optimize this under the cover. A well written OS will be better able to utilize memory in a fashion suitable to the OS than some disk drive manufacturer building disks with the general expectation of a VFAT32 FS. As to the latency argument, yeah, it reduces latency. So does mounting async, and so does a caching controller and so does noatime, and so does taking the fsync() calls out of the database's two stage commit routine, and... and... The bottom line: I can make it go as fast as you want, if it doesn't have to be correct. Faster even... > >The drive, in doing caching, may reorder these operations, such > >that the index is written out, but the new record is not. > > This all depends on how you setup the drive. You can tell it not > to re-order writes (FSW bit in the caching control page). This helps little. Unless the write is committed tostable storage on a device block basis under OS control, there are still race windows inherent in the sector order reversal. If the drive believes it is about to write a run of contiguous sectors, it will *still* reorder the writes. The correct way to achieve lower latency is to increase concurrency -- but only between unrelated operations. The appropriate technology for this is multiple outstanding commands; tagged command queueing, in other words. > If I was really worried, however, I'd have the box on a UPS. This protects against crashes as a result of a power loss, but not those resulting from a memory overcommit architecture, nor those resulting from kernel bugs. Frankly, we are arguing on different axes; you are discussing "safe enough", while I'm discussing "reliable". > >The > >normal way you guarantee ordering in an application is to fsync() > >the record file before writing the index. The fsync() is not > >supposed to return until the drive states the data has been > >committed to stable storage. With write caching on, the drive lies. > > This is an interface issue, not a cache issue. If the kernel told the > disk driver to sync the cache, it could. This is what the Synchronize > Cache command is all about. But it doesn't, so you can't turn caching on and maintain data integrity guarantees; only data integrity probabilities. > >PS: If you turn this on, you might as well mount the drive async, > >too, since we are only talking about "how the data can not be > >trusted", as opposed to "if the data can not be trusted" (it can't). > > You are assuming that the OS will never panic. I don't use async > mounts because I expect the OS to occasionally crash. I worry > about power outages too, but they are something I can easily control > with a UPS. Actually, I am assuming that the OS *will* panic. If you discount everything including power failures, then you get the first part of my "PS:". If you discount everything *but* power failures, e.g., by appeal to a UPS, then you get the second part (since as long as the write occurs before a bus reset telling the device to forget everything and initialize itself, a cached write will still occur -- note that this is a real danger in a panic situation). > >If you get power fail notification, then you can use async and > >drive level write caching in relative saftey (ie: as safe as > >possible, given the possibility of the system crashing for some > >reason other than power failure). > > exactly. > > So why did you feel the need to sermonize again? Ken and I are > well aware of how SCSI devices work and the effects of setting > these parameters. We did write a SCSI layer, you know... Because someone suggested doing something that I felt was bad advice, and so long as that bad advice was in the record, I felt it necessary to note, also for the record, why the advice was bad. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 14:24:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18790 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18717 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15922 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA09261; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:23:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:23:37 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: it works!! In-Reply-To: <199809260624.AAA09773@panzer.plutotech.com> References: <199809260624.AAA09773@panzer.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <13838.44018.700872.677229@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kenneth D. Merry writes: > - Booted DEC Unix, and attempted to partition the thing. Silly me. No > matter what I tried, their disklabel(8) didn't want to disklabel the > damned disk. It didn't work even when I did something like this: > > dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/rrz20c bs=64k count=10 If anybody else needs to label a disk using DU, remember that their equiv of "auto" is a second identical device number. So you'd do something like this to put an initial label onto a disk at rz20: disklabel -wr rz20 rz20 The only time this will get you is when there's an entry in /etc/disktab which corresponds to the device you're labeling (the second device is supposed to be the disktab entry name; they really should use "auto"). You can just temporarily move /etc/distab out of the way in that case. Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 14:44:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22733 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22708 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 14:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06311; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:44:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199809272144.PAA06311@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Terry Lambert cc: gibbs@plutotech.com (Justin T. Gibbs), ken@plutotech.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@plutotech.com Subject: Re: one other thing... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:10:02 -0000." <199809271910.MAA25729@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:37:48 -0600 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Soft Updates is not a replacement for the on disk cache. The two >> serve very different purposes. One reduces the number of writes >> to the device, the other reduces the number of writes committed by >> the device to the disk and reduces latency for any device writes that >> the OS believes are necessary. > >Soft update reduces the number of writes to the device. And because >it does implicit write gathering, there is little or no room for the >disk to further optimize this under the cover. Soft updates deals with meta-data only. If I am a database (your example), I will likely have very few (if any) files in the filesystem and the only thing soft updates helps me with is dealing with file growth and other meta-data related accesses. Soft updates, in fact, does no write gathering at all. It makes a single meta-data change at a time just as is done in the sync case, but because of the tracking of dependencies, can perform these writes without blocking other file system activity. >A well written OS will be better able to utilize memory in a fashion >suitable to the OS than some disk drive manufacturer building disks >with the general expectation of a VFAT32 FS. Hmm. Then why does this give us something like a 2X performance boost? >As to the latency argument, yeah, it reduces latency. So does mounting >async, and so does a caching controller and so does noatime, and so >does taking the fsync() calls out of the database's two stage commit >routine, and... and... > >The bottom line: I can make it go as fast as you want, if it doesn't >have to be correct. Faster even... With a UPS, I'm guaranteed that the data will be correct even if the OS crashes so long as I don't have a concurrent device failure. I have backups or RAID to deal with device failure and no setting of the write cache helps you in this case anyway. >> >The drive, in doing caching, may reorder these operations, such >> >that the index is written out, but the new record is not. >> >> This all depends on how you setup the drive. You can tell it not >> to re-order writes (FSW bit in the caching control page). > >This helps little. Unless the write is committed tostable storage >on a device block basis under OS control, there are still race >windows inherent in the sector order reversal. If the drive >believes it is about to write a run of contiguous sectors, it >will *still* reorder the writes. The SCSI spec says otherwise. >The correct way to achieve lower latency is to increase concurrency >-- but only between unrelated operations. > >The appropriate technology for this is multiple outstanding commands; >tagged command queueing, in other words. These drives support 63 tagged transactions and we were using them all. >> If I was really worried, however, I'd have the box on a UPS. > >This protects against crashes as a result of a power loss, but >not those resulting from a memory overcommit architecture, nor >those resulting from kernel bugs. But a crash by way of a power loss is the only way (barring device failure) that my write cache can be compromised. If the OS crashes and reboots, the drive will happily commit to non-volatile storage that the OS assumed was written. >Frankly, we are arguing on different axes; you are discussing >"safe enough", while I'm discussing "reliable". My argument is that write caching is "reliable" if you use a UPS. >> This is an interface issue, not a cache issue. If the kernel told the >> disk driver to sync the cache, it could. This is what the Synchronize >> Cache command is all about. > >But it doesn't, so you can't turn caching on and maintain data >integrity guarantees; only data integrity probabilities. With a UPS, you do have these guarantees as the device has received the data before a future OS crash. If you are running an important data-base, is your machine on a UPS? It certainly is here. >> You are assuming that the OS will never panic. I don't use async >> mounts because I expect the OS to occasionally crash. I worry >> about power outages too, but they are something I can easily control >> with a UPS. > >Actually, I am assuming that the OS *will* panic. If you discount >everything including power failures, then you get the first part >of my "PS:". If you discount everything *but* power failures, >e.g., by appeal to a UPS, then you get the second part (since as >long as the write occurs before a bus reset telling the device to >forget everything and initialize itself, a cached write will >still occur -- note that this is a real danger in a panic situation). What does a panic have to do with this? It has no effect on the write cache on the disk, which is the whole thing we are discussing. If an application that requires stable storage in order to recover from a crash was not written properly (to use fsync for checkpoints, etc.) it will lose write cache or no. >Because someone suggested doing something that I felt was bad >advice, and so long as that bad advice was in the record, I >felt it necessary to note, also for the record, why the advice >was bad. You had better go out onto the main lists then and practice your speech there. All Quantum, Seagate, and IBM drives ship with write caching enabled so there must be thousands of people using FreeBSD that, although they haven't complained once about this problem, are certain to experience file system corruption. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 15:07:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26265 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26241 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10614; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:07:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd010583; Sun Sep 27 15:07:10 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA01294; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:07:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199809272207.PAA01294@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: one other thing... To: gibbs@plutotech.com (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:07:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, gibbs@plutotech.com, ken@plutotech.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@plutotech.com In-Reply-To: <199809272144.PAA06311@pluto.plutotech.com> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Sep 27, 98 03:37:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Soft update reduces the number of writes to the device. And because > >it does implicit write gathering, there is little or no room for the > >disk to further optimize this under the cover. > > Soft updates deals with meta-data only. If I am a database (your example), > I will likely have very few (if any) files in the filesystem and the only > thing soft updates helps me with is dealing with file growth and > other meta-data related accesses. Soft updates, in fact, does no write > gathering at all. It makes a single meta-data change at a time just > as is done in the sync case, but because of the tracking of dependencies, > can perform these writes without blocking other file system activity. FreeBSD does write gather in the clustering code. But I believe the mtime is not going to be updated in the on disk inode unless the writes have actually taken place (i.e., the _user data_ has actually been "M"'ed). > >A well written OS will be better able to utilize memory in a fashion > >suitable to the OS than some disk drive manufacturer building disks > >with the general expectation of a VFAT32 FS. > > Hmm. Then why does this give us something like a 2X performance boost? A _well written_ OS will be better able to utilize memory... Or maybe you aren't doing tagged command queueing? Really, this is a latency issue, and not a general linear performance win, like you imply with your "2X". You can improve latency by shortening the cycle time, but you can *also* improve latency by increasing concurrency. If the issue here is serial latency of inherently serial operations. My guess is that ordering is *not* guaranteed between seperate tagged commands, and the disk is using the write cache to optimize seek latency. Either that, or you are rewriting overlapping windows: [ ] [ ] [ ] ... With a really strange micro-benchmark designed to test whether the disk does write caching... > >The bottom line: I can make it go as fast as you want, if it doesn't > >have to be correct. Faster even... > > With a UPS, I'm guaranteed that the data will be correct even if the OS > crashes so long as I don't have a concurrent device failure. I have > backups or RAID to deal with device failure and no setting of the > write cache helps you in this case anyway. Right. You didn't say the disk you were doing this to was a member of a volume set in a UPS'ed RAID 5 array, however. > >This helps little. Unless the write is committed tostable storage > >on a device block basis under OS control, there are still race > >windows inherent in the sector order reversal. If the drive > >believes it is about to write a run of contiguous sectors, it > >will *still* reorder the writes. > > The SCSI spec says otherwise. The race windows are based on assumptions by the OS on write ordering dependencies, not SCSI race conditions. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Your previous point about being able to do a cache flush command to the disk is salient; however, FreeBSD is apparently not doing this yet, and until it does, the point about their being a race, stands. > >This protects against crashes as a result of a power loss, but > >not those resulting from a memory overcommit architecture, nor > >those resulting from kernel bugs. > > But a crash by way of a power loss is the only way (barring device failure) > that my write cache can be compromised. If the OS crashes and reboots, > the drive will happily commit to non-volatile storage that the OS assumed > was written. If the OS goes off in the weeds, it can write wrong data. Look at the library timestamp update bug. > >Frankly, we are arguing on different axes; you are discussing > >"safe enough", while I'm discussing "reliable". > > My argument is that write caching is "reliable" if you use a UPS. OK, then we are in violent agreement about the qualification I wanted to make on the original posting. I guess we can stop now, since I only wanted to qualify the instructions with what they implied above and beyond "faster writes". > All Quantum, Seagate, and IBM drives ship with write caching > enabled so there must be thousands of people using FreeBSD that, although > they haven't complained once about this problem, are certain to experience > file system corruption. But the only people who care about correctness are here and on the SCSI list... ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 17:12:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15896 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:12:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from octopus.originative.co.uk (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15798 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:11:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by OCTOPUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:11:23 +0100 Message-ID: From: Paul Richards To: "'Doug Rabson'" , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: New kernel available Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:11:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's not working on my Multia, it locks up just after the line sc0 at 0x60 irq1 on isa0 I get a lot of dec_axppci_33_intr_map: bad interrupt pin 30 errors as it's booting up, not that it actually gets that far :-) Paul Richards Ph.D. Originative Solutions Ltd > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Rabson [mailto:dfr@nlsystems.com] > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 1998 12:53 PM > To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: New kernel available > > > I have just uploaded a new GENERIC alpha kernel to > http://www.freebsd.org/~dfr. This kernel should detect the > disk which was > booted and select the root partition from that disk (no need for a > separate .da1 version). It also contains fixes for the > axppci33 platform > (including Multias and UDBs) which work on at least one system. Your > mileage may vary. > > -- > Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com > Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 > Fax: +44 181 381 1039 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Sep 27 17:41:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19657 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:41:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19649 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA25152; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:48:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199809280048.KAA25152@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: New kernel available In-Reply-To: from Paul Richards at "Sep 28, 98 01:11:21 am" To: paul@originative.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:48:18 +1000 (EST) Cc: dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards wrote: > It's not working on my Multia, it locks up just after the line > > sc0 at 0x60 irq1 on isa0 > > I get a lot of > > dec_axppci_33_intr_map: bad interrupt pin 30 > > errors as it's booting up, not that it actually gets that far :-) It works on my noname (I deleted NetBSD today). Must be specific to multia. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Sep 28 02:04:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03119 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:04:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03038 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05873; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:43:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:43:03 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Paul Richards cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: New kernel available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Paul Richards wrote: > It's not working on my Multia, it locks up just after the line > > sc0 at 0x60 irq1 on isa0 > > I get a lot of > > dec_axppci_33_intr_map: bad interrupt pin 30 > > errors as it's booting up, not that it actually gets that far :-) Does the machine have a serial or vga console? Could you possibly send me a log of what is printed when it boots (possibly be swapping to a serial console). -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Sep 28 13:37:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17341 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu (friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu [129.186.185.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17324 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu) Received: from friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA26400 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:37:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ccsanady@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu) Message-Id: <199809282037.PAA26400@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu> To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: which scsi card? Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:37:03 -0500 From: Chris Csanady Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I plan on purchasing a few scsi cards for use in LX164's. I was just curious as to which cards are supported. Do the Symbios 875 cards work, or do I need the 810's? Also, does the SRM care if it the flash bios on board? I found some Tekram 390(F) cards that look like they may work.. any cautions? Thanks, Chris Csanady To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Mon Sep 28 18:05:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07930 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from burka.rdy.com (burka.rdy.com [205.149.163.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07896 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:05:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@burka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by burka.rdy.com (8.8.8/RDY&DVV) id SAA23407 for alpha@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809290105.SAA23407@burka.rdy.com> Subject: xntpd To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:05:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@best.net From: dima@best.net (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL45 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey guys, did anybody got $Subject working on alpha? It looks like it has some problems (u_long size problem, I think). -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Sep 29 02:56:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20263 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20258 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:56:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA10223; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:55:28 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:55:28 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Chris Csanady cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: which scsi card? In-Reply-To: <199809282037.PAA26400@friley-185-114.res.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Chris Csanady wrote: > I plan on purchasing a few scsi cards for use in LX164's. I was > just curious as to which cards are supported. Do the Symbios > 875 cards work, or do I need the 810's? Also, does the SRM > care if it the flash bios on board? > > I found some Tekram 390(F) cards that look like they may work.. > any cautions? Driver support is pretty thin at the moment, with only the ncr and isp drivers working. The ncr driver supports all the cards which are supported on i386 and I have an 875 in my 164lx which works just fine. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Sep 29 02:57:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20383 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20375 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:57:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA10266; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:56:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:56:45 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Dima Ruban cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: xntpd In-Reply-To: <199809290105.SAA23407@burka.rdy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > Hey guys, did anybody got $Subject working on alpha? It looks like > it has some problems (u_long size problem, I think). I haven't tried yet. If you want to work on some time related stuff, could you think about fixing adjkerntz too :-). -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Sep 29 12:18:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19526 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:18:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from burka.rdy.com (burka.rdy.com [205.149.163.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19514 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:18:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@burka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by burka.rdy.com (8.8.8/RDY&DVV) id MAA29159; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809291917.MAA29159@burka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: xntpd In-Reply-To: from Doug Rabson at "Sep 29, 1998 10:56:45 am" To: dfr@nlsystems.com (Doug Rabson) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@best.net From: dima@best.net (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL45 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Rabson writes: > On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > > > Hey guys, did anybody got $Subject working on alpha? It looks like > > it has some problems (u_long size problem, I think). > > I haven't tried yet. If you want to work on some time related stuff, > could you think about fixing adjkerntz too :-). Ugh ... While fixing xntpd stuff is pretty much trivial (or at least it looks like it) I don't know about adjkerntz. I haven't looked at it yet, but as far as I understand it has some kernel support (read: relies on some i386 hardware/bios). Of course I'm not sure about it, but if this is correct - then I will definitely have a hard time porting this stuff to alpha, since I don't know that much about alpha's hardware ... > > -- > Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com > Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 > Fax: +44 181 381 1039 > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Sep 29 12:28:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21041 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21010 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:28:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA00425; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:27:12 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:27:12 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Dima Ruban cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: xntpd In-Reply-To: <199809291917.MAA29159@burka.rdy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > Doug Rabson writes: > > On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > > > > > Hey guys, did anybody got $Subject working on alpha? It looks like > > > it has some problems (u_long size problem, I think). > > > > I haven't tried yet. If you want to work on some time related stuff, > > could you think about fixing adjkerntz too :-). > > Ugh ... While fixing xntpd stuff is pretty much trivial (or at least it looks > like it) I don't know about adjkerntz. I haven't looked at it yet, but > as far as I understand it has some kernel support (read: relies on some > i386 hardware/bios). Of course I'm not sure about it, but if this is correct - > then I will definitely have a hard time porting this stuff to alpha, since > I don't know that much about alpha's hardware ... Since (with SRM anyway) all machines will run with the RTC on UTC, not wall clock time, maybe adjkerntz can be stubbed? It still needs to exist as the standard cron scripts keep trying to run it :-(. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Sep 29 13:32:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03598 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from burka.rdy.com (burka.rdy.com [205.149.163.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03547 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@burka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by burka.rdy.com (8.8.8/RDY&DVV) id NAA29685; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809292025.NAA29685@burka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: xntpd In-Reply-To: from Doug Rabson at "Sep 29, 1998 8:27:12 pm" To: dfr@nlsystems.com (Doug Rabson) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@best.net From: dima@best.net (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL45 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Rabson writes: > Since (with SRM anyway) all machines will run with the RTC on UTC, not > wall clock time, maybe adjkerntz can be stubbed? It still needs to exist > as the standard cron scripts keep trying to run it :-(. Maybe we should just hack the sucker to do exit (0) if runs on alpha? ;-) > > -- > Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com > Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 > Fax: +44 181 381 1039 > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Sep 29 14:34:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15147 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:34:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15138 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA23986; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:02:50 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:02:50 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Dima Ruban cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: xntpd In-Reply-To: <199809292025.NAA29685@burka.rdy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > Doug Rabson writes: > > Since (with SRM anyway) all machines will run with the RTC on UTC, not > > wall clock time, maybe adjkerntz can be stubbed? It still needs to exist > > as the standard cron scripts keep trying to run it :-(. > > Maybe we should just hack the sucker to do exit (0) if runs on alpha? ;-) That seems too unpleasant... I'll add it to my whiteboard *sigh*. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Sep 29 15:24:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23351 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23328 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA01877; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 08:31:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199809292231.IAA01877@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: xntpd In-Reply-To: from Doug Rabson at "Sep 29, 98 10:02:50 pm" To: dfr@nlsystems.com (Doug Rabson) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 08:31:30 +1000 (EST) Cc: dima@best.net, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Rabson wrote: > On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > > > Doug Rabson writes: > > > Since (with SRM anyway) all machines will run with the RTC on UTC, not > > > wall clock time, maybe adjkerntz can be stubbed? It still needs to exist > > > as the standard cron scripts keep trying to run it :-(. > > > > Maybe we should just hack the sucker to do exit (0) if runs on alpha? ;-) > > That seems too unpleasant... I'll add it to my whiteboard *sigh*. Maybe we should just move src/etc/crontab to src/etc/i386/crontab and create an alpha specific one. Then the `adjkerntz -i' in /etc/rc can move to /etc/rc.i386. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Sep 29 15:39:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26313 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from burka.rdy.com (burka.rdy.com [205.149.163.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26307 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:39:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@burka.rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by burka.rdy.com (8.8.8/RDY&DVV) id PAA00979; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809292238.PAA00979@burka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: xntpd In-Reply-To: <199809292231.IAA01877@cimlogic.com.au> from John Birrell at "Sep 30, 1998 8:31:30 am" To: jb@cimlogic.com.au (John Birrell) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@best.net From: dima@best.net (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL45 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Birrell writes: > Doug Rabson wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > > > > > Doug Rabson writes: > > > > Since (with SRM anyway) all machines will run with the RTC on UTC, not > > > > wall clock time, maybe adjkerntz can be stubbed? It still needs to exist > > > > as the standard cron scripts keep trying to run it :-(. > > > > > > Maybe we should just hack the sucker to do exit (0) if runs on alpha? ;-) > > > > That seems too unpleasant... I'll add it to my whiteboard *sigh*. > > Maybe we should just move src/etc/crontab to src/etc/i386/crontab and > create an alpha specific one. Then the `adjkerntz -i' in /etc/rc can > move to /etc/rc.i386. We can just [ -x /sbin/adjkerntz ] in /etc/rc to avoid /etc/rc separation for a difference architectures. > > -- > John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ > CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Sep 30 01:31:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA23231 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:31:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA23214 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:31:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA10470; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:28:47 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:28:47 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: John Birrell cc: dima@best.net, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: xntpd In-Reply-To: <199809292231.IAA01877@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, John Birrell wrote: > Doug Rabson wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Dima Ruban wrote: > > > > > Doug Rabson writes: > > > > Since (with SRM anyway) all machines will run with the RTC on UTC, not > > > > wall clock time, maybe adjkerntz can be stubbed? It still needs to exist > > > > as the standard cron scripts keep trying to run it :-(. > > > > > > Maybe we should just hack the sucker to do exit (0) if runs on alpha? ;-) > > > > That seems too unpleasant... I'll add it to my whiteboard *sigh*. > > Maybe we should just move src/etc/crontab to src/etc/i386/crontab and > create an alpha specific one. Then the `adjkerntz -i' in /etc/rc can > move to /etc/rc.i386. We will need adjkerntz for people which dual-boot BSD and NT (which is reasonable if I ever get around to porting our boot to AlphaBIOS). -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 1 11:53:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11606 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11584 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:53:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03407 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:41:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: New binary snapshot in ftp://hub.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/alpha/... Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 11:41:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3404.907267309@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Since I stuck a 3.0-19980930-BETA for the x86 on hub, I figured we might as well be symmetrical and make one for the alpha available as well. You still need the NetBSD boot floppies to install FreeBSD/alpha, but it's better than nothing! :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Oct 1 18:25:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08145 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 18:25:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from schizo.com (schizo.com [216.27.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08140 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 18:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bits@oldwarez.com) Received: from oldwarez.com (bits@oldwarez.com [216.27.37.18]) by schizo.com (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01704 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:31:25 -0400 (EDT) From: BitS X-Sender: bits@schizo.com To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: UDB/Multia boot Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, so the multia progress is getting further then before, however, it appears syscons isn't TGA friendly. So, I switch to serial in the hopes that it would make a difference. It didn't. I did notice Doug saying there was no TGA support at all currently so this isn't to suprising, however, being that a large ammount of alphas currently come with TGA cards, is it possible to put in some simple, possbly just puts() to get text data moving through? In the off chance that I'm wrong and this machine should be getting further then it is, heres my boot squence, first without -v and then a snip of the boot with a -v... pm0.rtci.com> attach s29 Trying 216.27.37.10 ... Connected - Escape character is '^]'. Testing Memory from 8 to 16 meg... Executing power-up script... version BL5 V3.8-3 Aug 10 1995 03:22:55 dka0.0.0.6.0 DKA0 SEAGATE ST32151N 0284 dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 ewa0.0.0.8.0 EWA0 08-00-2B-E4-3C-C6 pka0.7.0.6.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 16 Meg of system memory CPU speed is 166 MHZ Cache size is 256 Kbytes *** keyboard not plugged in... Keyboard error; using serial port terminal >>>boot dka0 -file kernel.gz (boot dka0.0.0.6.0 -file kernel.gz -flags -a) block 0 of dka0.0.0.6.0 is a valid boot block reading 15 blocks from dka0.0.0.6.0 bootstrap code read in base = 166000, image_start = 0, image_bytes = 1e00 initializing HWRPB at 2000 initializing page table at 158000 initializing machine state setting affinity to the primary CPU jumping to bootstrap code NetBSD/Alpha Primary Boot Jumping to entry point... NetBSD/Alpha Secondary Boot, Revision 1.9 (cgd@notunix, Mon May 11 02:03:30 PDT 1998) VMS PAL revision: 0x1000000010530 OSF PAL rev: 0x1000000020123 Switch to OSF PAL code succeeded. Boot file: kernel.gz Boot flags: -a Loading kernel.gz... 2159040+172568 [33848+1542+256896+146129] Entering kernel.gz at 0xfffffc0000320fe0... Unrecognized boot flag '-'. [ preserving 443608 bytes of kernel symbol table ] Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-BETA #22: Sun Sep 27 11:52:18 BST 1998 dfr@miata.nlsystems.com:/mnt/herring/b/dfr/FreeBSD/alpha/src/sys/compile/GENERIC DEC AXPpci (PCI ISA), 167MHz 8192 byte page size, 1 processor. real memory = 14352384 (14016K bytes) avail memory = 9322496 (9104K bytes) lca0: <21066 PCI adapter> isa0 Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: ncr0: rev 0x01 int a irq 11 on pci0.6.0 chip0: rev 0x03 on pci0.7.0 de0: rev 0x23 int a irq 15 on pci0.8.0 de0: DEC 21040 [10Mb/s] pass 2.3 de0: address 08:00:2b:e4:3c:c6 vga0: rev 0x02 int a irq 10 on pci0.11.0 mcclock0: at 0x70-0x71 on isa0 sc0 at 0x60 irq 1 on isa0 with a boot dka0 -file kernel.gz -flags -v syscons says: mcclock0: at 0x70-0x71 on isa0 sc0: no video adapter is found. sc0 at 0x60 irq 1 on isa0 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wimsey Network Engineer dwimsey@rtci.com Research Triangle Consultants, Inc 919-380-9771x3101 http://www.rtci.com http://www.schizo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- He who laughs last, is slow. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Oct 3 03:41:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22978 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 03:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kartanin.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (kartanin.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22967 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 03:41:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@kartanin.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by kartanin.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00287 for freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:40:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:40:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199810031040.MAA00287@kartanin.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New binary snapshot in ftp://hub.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/alpha/... Newsgroups: list.freebsd-alpha Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan wrote in list.freebsd-alpha: > Since I stuck a 3.0-19980930-BETA for the x86 on hub, I figured we > might as well be symmetrical and make one for the alpha available > as well. You still need the NetBSD boot floppies to install FreeBSD/alpha, > but it's better than nothing! :) Just FYI, hub.freebsd.org is mirrored at ftp7.de.freebsd.org. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Oct 3 04:22:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29221 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:22:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.toplink.net (mail.toplink.net [195.2.171.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA29215 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 04:22:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kai@panel.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.toplink.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with UUCP id NAA12075 for freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:22:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from panel.de (kruemel.panel.de [195.2.174.100]) by kastenfrosch.panel.de (8.8.8/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA29312 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:22:03 +0200 Message-Id: <199810031122.NAA29312@kastenfrosch.panel.de> Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:20:57 +0200 From: Kai Schmidt Reply-To: Kai Schmidt To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Newbie question X-Mailer: Kai Schmidt's registered AK-Mail 3.0b sppb1 [ger] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I just got a Multia as a present. I am following this list a bit longer, but I am unable to figure out, where I can get a Free-BSD alpha port. Any help and hints appreciated. -- Bye! - Kai Schmidt - "That's why we are on this ship to begin with! It becomes our problem when the machines can't handle it!" Capt. Dallas, USCSS Nostromo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Oct 3 05:55:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06827 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 05:55:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06819 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 05:55:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14642; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:54:56 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:54:55 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Kai Schmidt cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbie question In-Reply-To: <199810031122.NAA29312@kastenfrosch.panel.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Kai Schmidt wrote: > Hi, > > I just got a Multia as a present. > > I am following this list a bit longer, but I am unable to figure out, where > I can get a Free-BSD alpha port. > > Any help and hints appreciated. It might be best for you to wait a little bit longer. We are working on the install program right now. The current method of installing FreeBSD/alpha is a bit tricky and involves using another operating system to bootstrap. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Oct 3 23:28:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19685 for freebsd-alpha-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles144.castles.com [208.214.165.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19648 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:28:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02170; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810040632.XAA02170@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Doug Rabson cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Multia bootstrap In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:03:58 BST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 23:32:55 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > Ok, there was something screwy going on in the kernel I had cut down. > > With a GENERIC kernel and nothing but sc0 removed, it boots single-user > > quite happily. Now to see if everything else works. > > > > Thanks, sorry for the red herring. > > No problem. Can you write a reply to the chap on the alpha mailing list > who was trying to boot his multia to get him started (and maybe send him a > kernel). Are you using the prom console or serial? I'm still not *on* the Alpha mailing list. I sent off my request, and a followup mail to jmb about it, but I'm still not connected. *sulk* I'm using the serial console; the kernel is just GENERIC with syscons removed (this might not even be necessary). You want to make sure that both of the console variables are set to 'serial'. If you're not winning with GENERIC, try http://www.freebsd.org/~msmith/alpha/kernel.MULTIA Still no ethernet, nor PPP working on the console regrettably, but these should be fixable. Any hints on keeping these suckers cool? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-alpha" in the body of the message