From owner-freebsd-doc Sun Mar 1 14:34:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16176 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:34:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.ior.com (qmailr@on-ramp.ior.com [199.79.239.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA16152 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:34:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mme@ior.com) From: mme@ior.com Received: (qmail 31687 invoked from network); 1 Mar 1998 22:34:36 -0000 Received: from pm6-10.ior.com (HELO default) (204.212.119.138) by on-ramp.ior.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 1998 22:34:36 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980301143526.007a39c0@mail.ior.com> X-Sender: mme@mail.ior.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:35:26 -0800 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: frontpage extentions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org do you know of any servers that use microsoft front pages extentions? at&t is one but am looking for a better price see ya! mick------------> mme@ior.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Sun Mar 1 16:32:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04917 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04912 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:32:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfieber@indiana.edu) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22934; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:32:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:32:47 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber Reply-To: John Fieber To: Nik Clayton cc: doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Handbook/FAQ -> DocBook migration In-Reply-To: <19980301204519.07839@nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [cc'd to doc, I hope you don't mind] On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Nik Clayton wrote: > Right. However, couldn't the conversion project start now? I was > thinking something along the lines of: > > - Branch the CVS tree, and start doing the conversion on the branch. > > - Peridoically merge in changes from HEAD on to the branch. Every > time a merge is performed, tag the HEAD with a specific tag to > indicate that the merge was performed. As it stands, the semi-automated part of the linuxdoc to docbook conversion of the handbook is probably a couple hours of work at the most. The result is a parsable docbook version whose rendering basically matches that of the former linuxdoc version. The tedious manual part is cleaning up some of things that were mis-tagged by the automatic conversion and adding "enhanced" tagging that the docbook DTD allows. Since the result of the quick-and-dirty semi-automatic conversion is no *worse* than the existing linuxdoc markup, I don't feel that taking a CVS branch is really worthwhile. The tedious manual cleanup can happen on the "live" copy without difficulty. > Also, is there anything about the layout (within the > filesystem) of the component files that make up the handbook > that you'd like to change? For example, when I'm working on my > own documentation, I do things like name all the .sgml files > that are only intended to be included in other documents with a > leading '_'. I personally find leading underscores æthetically less than pleasing, but naming conventions are certainly open to change--SGML doesn't care a bit what things are called. > Also, one of my pet hates when working with the source to the existing > handbook is that the SGML files are all in one directory. It might be nice > if 'Handbook Mk II' organised them into directories, perhaps by chapter. For a book that was "designed" this would work, but the handbook, contrary to good design principles, has more or less just evolved. Since CVS doesn't handle moving files that well, I think a flat directory provides some needed flexibility. > > * Make sure it will all work for the Japanese version which uses > > EUC encoding for the source files. We will need to consult with ... > That's an interesting problem. Has anyone with sufficient Japanese > fluency/technical ability come forward to advise on this? The Japanese doc team is really on the ball; I'm not too worried about it actually. I just want to be sure we don't head down a path that will make things difficult for them in the long run. Basically, the semi-automatic part of the conversion needs to be carefully document so the Japanese team can duplicate it. The tedious manual markup cleanup can be done by tracking the CVS commits on the English version. (Taking great care to NOT mix actual markup changes with gratuitous re-formatting in the same commit!) > It occurs to me that having the FAQ, the Handbook and the tutorials as > 3 distinct entities spreads the information out a little too much. And generates unnecessary duplication, for example the PPP tutorial and the PPP stuff in the handbook. These really should be merged. Most of the tutorials should be merged for that matter. Two historical reasons for the tutorials existance are (1) to serve as a holding place for good documentation that needs to be integrated into the handbook and (2) for documents that should be processable as complete documents by themselves. > The existing handbook would be split into several DocBook 'parts'. Each > part would contain (probably) several chapters, one of which would be > 'Frequently Asked Questions'. Each of these might also contain one or > more tutorials (marked up as 'articles'). The FAQ chapter and tutorials > chapter would only contain FAQs and tutorials relative to that 'part'. This is a fairly radical reorganization...it sounds like it could work...let's just get the stuff translated into the infinately more flexible docbook framework, then think more about the (desparately needed) content examination/reorganization. > I'm also thinking about a slight amendment to the DTD. Specifically, > for marking up a FAQ it would be nice to have 'question' and 'answer' > elements, possibly with a containing 'faq' element. So the source > might look something like: I've been thinking about this for quite some time. For the moment, I think the simple approach would be to use the role attribute (common to all elements) to mark a section as being an FAQ: Installing FreeBSD Which file do I download to get FreeBSD? [the answer] The stylesheet can do the appropriate rendering, yet the document remains processable by tools expecting a standard DocBook DTD. If we customize the DTD later, it will be trivial to change the document to use it. > On a related issue, what's your current thinking on using inline graphics > within the handbook (and potentially, the FAQ). I posted a message to -doc > on Friday in reponse to someone else's query about this that showed how > it could be done using marked sections, and at least four different > entity names. Hmph. I thought things were a little quiet, so I checked and I was dropped from the doc mailing list! Re-subscribed now. (gee, what else did I miss?) There are proverbial 101 ways to do graphics in SGML. The way I'm currently leaning toward is like this:
My Figure
The definition of the myFigure entity is in a catalog file. You have three catalog files for: HTML with graphics, HTML without and print. The HTML with graphics would reference a GIF (or JPEG) image, HTML without graphics would reference an ASCII-art image (or appropriate text description), print would reference a postscript image. Specify the correct catalog file when parsing with jade and the stylesheet will automagically get it right. > Remind me again why we need > Microsoft? Reminds me of a little quote from Arlo Guthrie: "You can't have, like, a light, without a dark to stick it in." -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Mar 2 00:13:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02637 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from macon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (macon2.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.13.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02625 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:13:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sperber@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from modas.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (modas.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De [134.2.12.3]) by macon.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.4/8.8.3/AIX-4.1/WSI-1.0) with SMTP id JAA12812 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:13:32 +0100 Received: by modas.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22150; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:13:25 +0100 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Handbook errors in "Using CURRENT" and "Using STABLE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 1.1.1.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 From: sperber@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Michael Sperber [Mr. Preprocessor]) Date: 02 Mar 1998 09:13:24 +0100 Message-Id: Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Quassia Gnus v0.32/XEmacs 20.5(beta28) - "LaMancha" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA02632 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The above handbook sections describe how to get CURRENT or STABLE via ftp like this: 3. Use ftp. The source tree for FreeBSD-current is always "exported" on: ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current We also use `wu-ftpd' which allows compressed/tar'd grabbing of whole trees. e.g. you see: usr.bin/lex You can do: ftp> cd usr.bin ftp> get lex.tar.Z However, ftp.freebsd.org doesn't support compressing outgoing tar files on-the-fly. The ".Z" should be removed. -- Cheers =8-} Mike Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Mar 2 03:03:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22804 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:03:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk ([195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22794 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:03:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06183; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:57:28 GMT Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09719; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:02:41 GMT Message-ID: <19980302110240.40444@iii.co.uk> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:02:40 +0000 To: John Fieber Cc: Nik Clayton , doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Handbook/FAQ -> DocBook migration References: <19980301204519.07839@nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: ; from John Fieber on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 07:32:47PM -0500 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 07:32:47PM -0500, John Fieber wrote: > [cc'd to doc, I hope you don't mind] Not at all. I meant to suggest it in my message :-) > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Nik Clayton wrote: > > Right. However, couldn't the conversion project start now? I was > > thinking something along the lines of: > > > > - Branch the CVS tree, and start doing the conversion on the branch. > > > > - Peridoically merge in changes from HEAD on to the branch. Every > > time a merge is performed, tag the HEAD with a specific tag to > > indicate that the merge was performed. > > As it stands, the semi-automated part of the linuxdoc to docbook > conversion of the handbook is probably a couple hours of work at > the most. The result is a parsable docbook version whose > rendering basically matches that of the former linuxdoc version. > > The tedious manual part is cleaning up some of things that were > mis-tagged by the automatic conversion and adding "enhanced" > tagging that the docbook DTD allows. > > Since the result of the quick-and-dirty semi-automatic conversion > is no *worse* than the existing linuxdoc markup, I don't feel > that taking a CVS branch is really worthwhile. The tedious > manual cleanup can happen on the "live" copy without difficulty. That's fine. But if I read your previous message correctly, there are still issues with the conversion process itself (both conversion from LinuxDoc to DocBook, and conversion from DocBook to HTML). And it's these issues that are holding up the migration, because until they're fixed they'll probably cause problems for most people trying to use the handbook. Hence the branch suggestion. The DocBook conversion process can go ahead, without worrying about inadvertantly breaking the 'live' handbook. > > Also, is there anything about the layout (within the > > filesystem) of the component files that make up the handbook > > that you'd like to change? For example, when I'm working on my > > own documentation, I do things like name all the .sgml files > > that are only intended to be included in other documents with a > > leading '_'. > > I personally find leading underscores æthetically less than > pleasing, but naming conventions are certainly open to > change--SGML doesn't care a bit what things are called. > > > Also, one of my pet hates when working with the source to the existing > > handbook is that the SGML files are all in one directory. It might be nice > > if 'Handbook Mk II' organised them into directories, perhaps by chapter. > > For a book that was "designed" this would work, but the handbook, > contrary to good design principles, has more or less just > evolved. Since CVS doesn't handle moving files that well, I > think a flat directory provides some needed flexibility. Is now a good time to start a seperate discussion about the design and structure of the handbook? > > It occurs to me that having the FAQ, the Handbook and the tutorials as > > 3 distinct entities spreads the information out a little too much. > > And generates unnecessary duplication, for example the PPP > tutorial and the PPP stuff in the handbook. These really should > be merged. I'm in two minds about this. I think there's a need for a section in the handbook that covers "Everything you need to know about PPP on FreeBSD", and a tutorial that says "Do this, then do this, then do this. If you want to understand why you're doing it, read this, this and this in the main body of the handbook." > > The existing handbook would be split into several DocBook 'parts'. Each > > part would contain (probably) several chapters, one of which would be > > 'Frequently Asked Questions'. Each of these might also contain one or > > more tutorials (marked up as 'articles'). The FAQ chapter and tutorials > > chapter would only contain FAQs and tutorials relative to that 'part'. > > This is a fairly radical reorganization...it sounds like it could > work...let's just get the stuff translated into the infinately > more flexible docbook framework, then think more about the > (desparately needed) content examination/reorganization. OK. What are the steps in the conversion process (assuming you will want to do it 'live' and not on a separate branch)? > > I'm also thinking about a slight amendment to the DTD. Specifically, > > for marking up a FAQ it would be nice to have 'question' and 'answer' > > elements, possibly with a containing 'faq' element. So the source > > might look something like: > > I've been thinking about this for quite some time. For the > moment, I think the simple approach would be to use the role > attribute (common to all elements) to mark a section as being an > FAQ: Good idea. Hadn't occured to me. > > On a related issue, what's your current thinking on using inline graphics > > within the handbook (and potentially, the FAQ). I posted a message to -doc > > on Friday in reponse to someone else's query about this that showed how > > it could be done using marked sections, and at least four different > > entity names. > > Hmph. I thought things were a little quiet, so I checked and I > was dropped from the doc mailing list! Re-subscribed now. (gee, > what else did I miss?) There hasn't been a great deal recently. > There are proverbial 101 ways to do graphics in SGML. The way > I'm currently leaning toward is like this: > >
> My Figure > >
> > The definition of the myFigure entity is in a catalog file. You > have three catalog files for: HTML with graphics, HTML without > and print. The HTML with graphics would reference a GIF (or > JPEG) image, HTML without graphics would reference an ASCII-art > image (or appropriate text description), print would reference a > postscript image. > > Specify the correct catalog file when parsing with jade and the > stylesheet will automagically get it right. Interesting approach. Wouldn't marked sections give more flexibility though (on the assumption that inline images are not the only things we might want to differentiate between different output formats) ? > > Remind me again why we need > > Microsoft? > > Reminds me of a little quote from Arlo Guthrie: "You can't have, > like, a light, without a dark to stick it in." "This OS is called NT. It's not new, and it's not really technology, that's just the name of the OS." N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Mar 2 07:32:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27625 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from serv.fessl.ru (serv.fessl.ru [194.84.171.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27614 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:32:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from amo@serv.fessl.ru) Received: from ester.fessl.ru (ester.fessl.ru [194.84.171.73]) by serv.fessl.ru (8.8.5/bf/1.13) with SMTP id BAA25992 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:31:49 +1000 (VSK) Message-ID: <34FAD0DC.3872@fessl.ru> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 01:31:40 +1000 From: Alexies Ponomarev Reply-To: amo@fessl.ru Organization: FarEasten State Library of Scientific&Research Information X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: unx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org help subscribe all To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Mar 2 09:28:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12693 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12683 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27890 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:28:19 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA08593; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:27:34 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980302182734.51704@follo.net> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:27:34 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Problem in Jade port? - bad tests Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm having equal problems on two different -current boxes with the Jade port installed. One of the machines was freshly installed from the nightly snap 11 days ago, and one is my personal workstation, with a mixture of just about everything. I've not tested on -stable. The problem can be reproduced with the following shellscript on a suitably connected machine; it basically download and run Norman Walsh' jade test files. #!/bin/sh fetch http://www.berkshire.net/~norm/docbook/dsssl/testdata/jtest.dsl fetch http://www.berkshire.net/~norm/docbook/dsssl/testdata/jtest.dtd jade -t rtf -d jtest.dsl jtest.sgm In Norman's words: Installing Jade 1. Download and unpack the Jade distribution. Binary distributions are available for some platforms, including Microsoft Windows, which makes installation a simple matter of unpacking the distribution. For other platforms, you will need to build Jade from sources. Please consult the documentation that comes with Jade for more detailed installation instructions. You may wish to add the directory where you installed Jade to your PATH. If not, make sure that you use the fully qualified name of the executable when you try to run the commands below. 2. Download jtest.sgm and jtest.dsl. These are self-contained test documents. Test Jade by running: jade -t rtf -d jtest.dsl jtest.sgm This command should silently produce jtest.rtf. If you encounter warnings or errors here, you have not installed Jade correctly. I'm having trouble getting anything else to work correctly with jade, too. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Mar 2 16:58:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01557 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:58:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sheltie.cisco.com (sheltie.cisco.com [171.69.219.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01539 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:58:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edjames@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (migrate-pc.cisco.com [171.69.218.62]) by sheltie.cisco.com (8.8.4-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA22867; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:57:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FB38CC.6B761067@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:55:08 -0600 From: Ed james Reply-To: edjames@cisco.com Organization: Cisco Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: zynx -> znyx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://freebsd.org/handbook/handbook10.html#10 This page refers to zynx cards. It is actually znyx, which explains why so many questions about where to buy one pop up under deja news. See www.znyx.com. --ed To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Mar 3 03:55:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27315 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:55:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pipe.aspec.udm.ru (root@pipe.aspec.udm.ru [195.9.122.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27306 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:55:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dima@aspec.udm.ru) Received: from dima.aspec.udm.ru (dima.aspec.udm.ru [195.9.122.132]) by pipe.aspec.udm.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00462 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:56:46 +0400 (SAMT) Message-Id: <199803031156.PAA00462@pipe.aspec.udm.ru> From: "Kapin Dmitry" To: Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:55:46 +0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Mar 3 15:52:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20358 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:52:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19870; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:50:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10189; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:20:52 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA19934; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:20:52 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:20:52 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: stuart henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) Reply-To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk>; from stuart henderson on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:51:55AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 10:51:55 +0000, stuart henderson wrote: >> IMHO, HTML is the best choice for this documentation. HTML is >> accessible from nearly everywhere, space efficient and by definition, >> hypertext. > >> If a plain text version is necessary for ease of printing and access >> where a browser isn't available, use the existing SGML tools to >> produce HTML and text from one base. > > At the moment, it's not very easy to get at the handbook or FAQ offline > until FreeBSD is installed. It would probably be more useful for many > people to be able to read it first - certainly in countries where phone > calls have to be paid for, online reading isn't a very sensible option. > > I think at the very least, there should be a (preferably .zip) archive > of the HTML versions for offline reading. > > A printable version as well would be nice: .ps is not a very good choice > because very few people in the Windows world know about ghostscript - > RTF/Word/PDF all have the advantage of being printer-independent and > usable on a reasonably standard configuration. I'm picking on your message to answer mainly because it's the last in sequence in my incoming mail :-) I don't have time to answer each message blow-by-blow, and I'm not sure it would be the best way to do it if I did. I have a number of points to make: 1. This is really an issue to discuss in -doc, not in -chat. I'm following up there. 2. The ASCII (latin1) version of the handbook doesn't contain any high-bit-set characters. The only unusual character it contains is a ^H (backspace), which even on DOS impact printers will create a bolder impression. In UNIX, you can (and I do) remove it with sed 's:.^H::g'. I suppose it would make sense to include a stripped version on the next CD-ROM, like I'm planning to put an ASCII version of "The Complete FreeBSD". 3. ASCII is *terrible* to read. One of the reasons I'm still wondering whether it's worth the trouble is that it's almost illegible. So much of the information is in the fonts and the character sizes; without this information, it's often very difficult to understand. 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but people should at least be made aware of the possibility. 5. I think HTML stinks as a documentation format. It's barely acceptable as a web format, and the attempts I've made to use it for Real Documents have been painful. Compare http://www.lemis.com/errata-2.html and ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/cfbsd/errata-2.ps, both of which ostensibly are the same document. About the only advantage it has is that just about everybody has a reader. BTW, can't you display .html files with Microsoft-based browsers? I've probably forgotten something here. I may follow up. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Mar 3 16:27:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29882 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:27:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29569; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:26:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA21682; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:09 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:05 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: stuart henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > 3. ASCII is *terrible* to read. One of the reasons I'm still > wondering whether it's worth the trouble is that it's almost > illegible. Whoo, flag-waving time :-) For the past 6 years, I have done most of my reading in ASCII with the occasional addition of ANSI or avatar for colour. I find it the easiest text to read on screen, and the only kind readable under DOS. It is particularly convenient for people whose vision is not real good. The only way I've ever viewed the handbook or faq is on a plain text screen, and I don't feel particularly deprived. Some texts have a lot of the information in the fonts, and these do require either a printer or a GUI, or a good imagination. Ask me what's most convenient to most people who haven't installed FreeBSD yet, and I'll guess WinWord2 (many other word processors can read that), or the conservative RTF that is generated by WinWord2. Ask what's most sure to be accessible by all people, and it's gotta be ASCII. Neither by itself provides anything like a good, much less total, solution. > 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I > have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but > people should at least be made aware of the possibility. I've never liked the idea of giving something and saying oh, by the way, you'll have to install something to use this. That's my main objection to depending on things like PDF and Word for windoze environments. If you want people to use particular software you have to supply it and instructions, and hope that they have the required disk space and permission to install it, the resources to run it, and the motivation to go to that length. > BTW, can't you display .html files with Microsoft-based browsers? A long thread in an unrelated mailing list recently concluded that to be as platform independent as possible, HTML files should have names which are 8.3 and all caps. I prepared to install FreeBSD when running OS/2 and hand-renamed all of the handbook's HTML files and links so I could use them with the then-available software. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Mar 3 17:38:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15769 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:38:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15737; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10283; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:06:46 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA20527; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:06:46 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:06:45 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: stuart henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 11:26:05AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 11:26:05 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I >> have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but >> people should at least be made aware of the possibility. > > I've never liked the idea of giving something and saying oh, by the way, > you'll have to install something to use this. That's my main objection to > depending on things like PDF and Word for windoze environments. > > If you want people to use particular software you have to supply it and > instructions, and hope that they have the required disk space and permission > to install it, the resources to run it, and the motivation to go to that length. Sure. We do that. It's called FreeBSD. >> BTW, can't you display .html files with Microsoft-based browsers? > > A long thread in an unrelated mailing list recently concluded that to be > as platform independent as possible, HTML files should have names which are > 8.3 and all caps. > > I prepared to install FreeBSD when running OS/2 and hand-renamed all of the > handbook's HTML files and links so I could use them with the then-available > software. I suppose there's not too much objection to supplying a script^H^H^H^H^H^Hbatch file which renames them for you. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Mar 3 17:54:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20064 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:54:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19707; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:52:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA21931; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:52:14 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304125210.37584@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:52:10 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: stuart henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:06:45PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:06:45PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 11:26:05 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I > >> have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but > >> people should at least be made aware of the possibility. > > > > I've never liked the idea of giving something and saying oh, by the way, > > you'll have to install something to use this. That's my main objection to > > depending on things like PDF and Word for windoze environments. > > > > If you want people to use particular software you have to supply it and > > instructions, and hope that they have the required disk space and permission > > to install it, the resources to run it, and the motivation to go to that length. > > Sure. We do that. It's called FreeBSD. Counter-snort. > >> BTW, can't you display .html files with Microsoft-based browsers? > > > > A long thread in an unrelated mailing list recently concluded that to be > > as platform independent as possible, HTML files should have names which are > > 8.3 and all caps. > > > > I prepared to install FreeBSD when running OS/2 and hand-renamed all of the > > handbook's HTML files and links so I could use them with the then-available > > software. > > I suppose there's not too much objection to supplying a > script^H^H^H^H^H^Hbatch file which renames them for you. It's the internal links that are the killer, their upper/lower case differences as well as the length of their file names. I realise batch files do more and work more reliably than unix scripts, and the dos users are cleverer at using them, but does FreeBSD have trouble handling short file names and upper case? Should someone be working on that? -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Mar 3 18:20:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26364 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:20:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26207; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22011; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:19:27 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304131922.38592@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:19:23 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat , freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304125210.37584@welearn.com.au> <19980304122431.38449@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980304122431.38449@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:24:31PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:24:31PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 12:52:10 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > I realise batch files do more and work more reliably than unix scripts, and > > the dos users are cleverer at using them, but does FreeBSD have trouble > > handling short file names and upper case? > > No, but the users do :-) > > > Should someone be working on that? > > Definitely not. Ha! You won't out-stubborn me that easily :-) I've been trained by experts. Do you or do you not want to encourage people to read the stuff _before_ they attempt to install (and start learning) FreeBSD? I think you do but would prefer that the compromises are all made at their end. Allocate a little extra space and they could pick out whatever format they can use, even if they only know unix and lower case. Or find one or two that _everyone_ can use... and test it to make sure. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Mar 3 18:52:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00799 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:52:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1b.yahoomail.com (send1b.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA00789 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from corydzbinski@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980304025212.17359.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Received: from [204.210.48.136] by send1b; Tue, 03 Mar 1998 18:52:12 PST Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:52:12 -0800 (PST) From: Cory Dzbinski Subject: How is the heck?! To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Your page needs to be more direct. You need a link to download FreeBSP! Where the heck is it?! I could not find the file anywhere! Cory _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Mar 4 03:11:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12634 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:11:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12628 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23285; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:10:36 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19980304131036.44077@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:10:36 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi... This is going to sound really nasty, but it's not meant that way... On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > 2. The ASCII (latin1) version of the handbook doesn't contain any > high-bit-set characters. The only unusual character it contains > is a ^H (backspace), which even on DOS impact printers will create > a bolder impression. In UNIX, you can (and I do) remove it with > sed 's:.^H::g'. I suppose it would make sense to include a > stripped version on the next CD-ROM, like I'm planning to put an > ASCII version of "The Complete FreeBSD". The thing is that maybe 80% of newbies are starting from a Win95 environment... They dont have a clue what sed is and they dont have impact printers. They want documents that are easy to print using the stuff that comes with Win95. If the install docs dont work then the OS is obviously a load of junk... > 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I > have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but > people should at least be made aware of the possibility. I once tried to install TeX on DOS, found I needed some other arcane Unix utility, found I had to compile it from source, found it wouldn't work in Borland C, needed DJGPP and so on, until I ran out of disk space. I gave up. Telling people to install groff to read your docs is only going to chase them away. > 5. I think HTML stinks as a documentation format. It's barely > acceptable as a web format, and the attempts I've made to use it > for Real Documents have been painful. Compare > http://www.lemis.com/errata-2.html and > ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/cfbsd/errata-2.ps, both of which > ostensibly are the same document. About the only advantage it has > is that just about everybody has a reader. Your opinion doesn't count. Only that of a clueless newbie, armed with Win95 and a problem. The documentation, especially the stuff needed to explain the install, must be visible and easy to get, [print], and read. The choices are HTML, PDF and RTF. All can be generated from the current SGML. We need to make all of these available. With the latin1, ascii and ps versions. I started using FreeBSD out of frustration with Win95 and people always telling me to buy stuff (like Word, like Borland C). I saw a powerful, free operating system, with a ton of other free software, and dived in. I printed the INSTALL.TXT file, read it, was lost... read most of the handbook... still didn't tell me the basics. I didn't have the man pages to read yet... It took me a week of evenings before I was even willing to boot the install disk. The thing which I really dont like about the Unix world is that it sucks you in... This package depends on that package, which is really doing the same job as another package, which you need for something else... you can't ever talk of a minimum install. Anyhow, enough whining, I guess my real point (and you should know this better than anyone else ;) is that the docs are not written for the authors, but for the users, especially the clueless ones. Regards, -Jeremy -- .sig.gz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Mar 4 11:22:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01987 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:22:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.logx.com (qmailr@mail.logx.com [206.162.23.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA01947 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jir@logx.com) Received: (qmail 17667 invoked by uid 0); 4 Mar 1998 19:21:14 -0000 Received: from pppb954.pppp.ap.so-net.or.jp (HELO logx.com) (210.132.185.84) by onlinepartners.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1998 19:21:14 -0000 Message-ID: <34FDA9CF.4B100FAF@logx.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 04:21:51 +0900 From: jir X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [ja] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org $B%7%c!<%W(Bmebius330 tft $B$G$9$,(B xconfig$B$O$J$K$rA*$s$@$iA1$$$G$7$g$&$+!#(B geneal16$B$,$@$a$G(B (IDW2C^]D$B$b$A$@$a$G$9(B To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Mar 4 15:19:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17468 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:19:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17448 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06801; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:19:17 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <34FDE174.6ACF8428@plutotech.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:19:16 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: Graphics in handbook? What do you think? References: <19980227114815.57531@freebie.lemis.com> <34F6E001.D09568D8@plutotech.com> <19980228132125.15343@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Tell me what you think now. I like it. I think I'd find a way to make "Communicator" instead of "windowMenuLite" appear in the menubar. Someone's X resources might be screwed up. One other possible source for confusion might be the term "image". Before the screenshot, the paragraph refers to the floppy boot image; after the shot, there's a remark about what to do if your browser doesn't support images. A discussion of images does come later, but maybe too late? Maybe you want to call the pictures in the browser "icons" instead. A few grammatical nits: * "XF86331 is ... It's strongly recommended to install it." Howabout: "It's strongly recommended that you install it." * "games contains ... Don't exepct any great things from this distribution." Add: "especially now that boggle is gone." :-) Otherwise, it looks great, and it should help cut down on those pesky questions asking "uh, what file do I download?" --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Mar 4 17:00:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10348 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:00:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jubilee.bbn.com (JUBILEE.BBN.COM [128.33.160.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10342 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:00:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from twinston@port.bbn.com) Received: from bbn.com (root@PORT.BBN.COM [128.33.161.11]) by jubilee.bbn.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA09959 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from port.bbn.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bbn.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28625 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:41:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199803042241.RAA28625@bbn.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 2 questions... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:41:51 -0500 From: Tom Winston Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can somebody please answer me the following 2 questions? 1. NFS is only tx at a rate of 200K/sec.. What modifications if any can be made to ameliorate this slow tx rate? 2. What is the maximum number of partitions possible to mount on a FreeBSD 2.2.5 release?? Sincerely, Tom Winston To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Mar 4 17:20:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13010 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:20:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13003 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:20:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA13335; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:09:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:09:03 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Jeremy Lea cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) In-Reply-To: <19980304131036.44077@shale.csir.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the best statement of the issues on the problem of making the FAQ and the handbook available to new users that I've ever seen. I think the doc project should take on as a priority ensuring that documentation can be easily obtained by Microsoft users before FreeBSD is installed, and read on the screen and printed, and that instructions on how to do so are available. Annelise On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Jeremy Lea wrote: > Hi... > > This is going to sound really nasty, but it's not meant that way... > > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > 2. The ASCII (latin1) version of the handbook doesn't contain any > > high-bit-set characters. The only unusual character it contains > > is a ^H (backspace), which even on DOS impact printers will create > > a bolder impression. In UNIX, you can (and I do) remove it with > > sed 's:.^H::g'. I suppose it would make sense to include a > > stripped version on the next CD-ROM, like I'm planning to put an > > ASCII version of "The Complete FreeBSD". > > The thing is that maybe 80% of newbies are starting from a Win95 > environment... They dont have a clue what sed is and they dont have impact > printers. They want documents that are easy to print using the stuff that > comes with Win95. If the install docs dont work then the OS is obviously a > load of junk... > > > 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I > > have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but > > people should at least be made aware of the possibility. > > I once tried to install TeX on DOS, found I needed some other arcane Unix > utility, found I had to compile it from source, found it wouldn't work in > Borland C, needed DJGPP and so on, until I ran out of disk space. I gave up. > Telling people to install groff to read your docs is only going to chase > them away. > > > 5. I think HTML stinks as a documentation format. It's barely > > acceptable as a web format, and the attempts I've made to use it > > for Real Documents have been painful. Compare > > http://www.lemis.com/errata-2.html and > > ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/cfbsd/errata-2.ps, both of which > > ostensibly are the same document. About the only advantage it has > > is that just about everybody has a reader. > > Your opinion doesn't count. Only that of a clueless newbie, armed with > Win95 and a problem. The documentation, especially the stuff needed to > explain the install, must be visible and easy to get, [print], and read. The > choices are HTML, PDF and RTF. All can be generated from the current SGML. > We need to make all of these available. With the latin1, ascii and ps > versions. > > I started using FreeBSD out of frustration with Win95 and people always > telling me to buy stuff (like Word, like Borland C). I saw a powerful, free > operating system, with a ton of other free software, and dived in. I printed > the INSTALL.TXT file, read it, was lost... read most of the handbook... > still didn't tell me the basics. I didn't have the man pages to read yet... > It took me a week of evenings before I was even willing to boot the install > disk. > > The thing which I really dont like about the Unix world is that it sucks you > in... This package depends on that package, which is really doing the same > job as another package, which you need for something else... you can't ever > talk of a minimum install. > > Anyhow, enough whining, I guess my real point (and you should know this > better than anyone else ;) is that the docs are not written for the authors, > but for the users, especially the clueless ones. > > Regards, > -Jeremy > > -- > .sig.gz > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Mar 5 05:30:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11816 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:30:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hungary.it.earthlink.net (hungary-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA11781 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:29:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chiro@digital-doc.com) Received: from chris (dwan3-pool018.pw-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.132.118]) by hungary.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA16392 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:29:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001501bd483b$01e38440$7684d9cf@chris> From: "DIGITAL DOC" To: Subject: Setup Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:31:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD47F7.F083B6E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD47F7.F083B6E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01BD47F7.F083B6E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01BD47F7.F083B6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have the following computers: Pentium 233 use the second most, lots of printing of bills Pentium 133 used the most for appointments etc. Busiest computer in the = lot Pentium 75 all have 32Ram All have a 1.6 Gig hard drives. I just bought a 4 gig. With your OS or any OS for that matter, what computer should I make the = server and should the server be dedicated? My question Best Wishes, C.M.Wilkerson, D.C.=20 http://www.digital-doc.com chiro@digital-doc.com Carson Doctors Group=20 519 W Carson St. Suite 101 Carson Ca 90745 (310)533-1070 Fax (310) 328-8501 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01BD47F7.F083B6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled
I have the following computers:
 
Pentium 233 use the second most, lots of printing of bills
Pentium 133 used the most for appointments etc. Busiest computer in = the=20 lot
Pentium 75
all have 32Ram
All have a 1.6 Gig hard drives. I just bought a 4 gig.
 
With your OS or any OS for that matter, what computer should I make = the=20 server and should the server be dedicated?
 
 
My question
Best Wishes,
 
C.M.Wilkerson, D.C.
 
 
 
Carson Doctors Group
 
519 W Carson St.
Suite 101
Carson Ca 90745
(310)533-1070 = Fax (310)=20 328-8501
 
 
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owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cbgw1.lucent.com (cbgw1.lucent.com [207.24.196.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00377 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:01:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbuhrma@hzsbg01.nl.lucent.com) Received: from hzsbg01.nl.lucent.com by cbig1.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id LAA25610; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:00:47 -0500 Received: by hzsbg01.nl.lucent.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07539; Thu, 5 Mar 98 17:01:09 +0100 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 17:01:09 +0100 Message-Id: <9803051601.AA07539@hzsbg01.nl.lucent.com> From: Jan-Hein Buhrman To: Hellmuth Michaelis Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Invalid ref in FreeBSD_HandBook/Advanced_Networking/ISDN/ISDN_Cards Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id IAA00379 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hellmuth and others, The FreeBSD handbook section about ISDN cards references an URL which doesn't exist anymore: `ftp://hub.freebsd.org/pub/bisdn'. I couldn't find the correct location (perhaps I need to download `ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ls-lR.gz', to find out the correct location, but that's so big). Perhaps somebody can fix the HandBook and/or point me to the correct location. Hope this is useful info. Kind regards, Jan-Hein Bührman , To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Mar 5 09:38:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15708 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:38:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tycho.yesic.com (root@tycho.yesic.com [207.176.224.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15702 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:38:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtech@yesic.com) Received: from yesic.com (pre1-20.yesic.com [209.167.5.20]) by tycho.yesic.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA24904 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:38:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34FF0D8A.DA28221A@yesic.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:39:38 -0800 From: "Daniel M. Faria" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe dtech@yesic.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Mar 5 13:02:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19688 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:02:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hawk.pearson.udel.edu. (hawk.pearson.udel.edu [128.175.64.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA19681 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:02:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu) Received: from hawk.pearson.udel.edu by hawk.pearson.udel.edu. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA00460; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:49:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:49:35 -0500 From: alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu (Jerry Alexandratos) Message-Id: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Jeremy Lea , freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) Organization: Broken Toys Unlimited Reply-To: alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In Reply to Your Message of Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17: 09:03 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <453.889130974.1@hawk.pearson.udel.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:49:35 -0500 From: Jerry Alexandratos : This is the best statement of the issues on the problem of making : the FAQ and the handbook available to new users that I've ever seen. : : I think the doc project should take on as a priority ensuring that : documentation can be easily obtained by Microsoft users before : FreeBSD is installed, and read on the screen and printed, and that : instructions on how to do so are available. I have to agree on this one. I think that maybe just maybe (and please forgive me if I sound blasphemous) we should take a page out of the LinuxDoc project and try to have our documentation available in rtf as well. Give me a moment to don my asbestos cartigan. --Jerry 8) Jerry Alexandratos % - % "Nothing inhabits my (8 8) alexandr@louie.udel.edu % - % thoughts, and oblivion (8 8) alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu % - % drives my desires." (8 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Mar 5 14:05:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27587 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27579 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:05:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05058; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:52:40 GMT Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15269; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:57:48 GMT Message-ID: <19980305215748.36179@iii.co.uk> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:57:48 +0000 To: alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu Cc: Annelise Anderson , Jeremy Lea , freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.>; from Jerry Alexandratos on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 03:49:35PM -0500 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 03:49:35PM -0500, Jerry Alexandratos wrote: > I have to agree on this one. I think that maybe just maybe (and please > forgive me if I sound blasphemous) we should take a page out of the > LinuxDoc project and try to have our documentation available in rtf as > well. > > Give me a moment to don my asbestos cartigan. In the pipeline. When we've got the translation to DocBook sorted out (which hopefully won't be too far away) it's a (relatively) trivial matter to turn the documentation into a multitude of formats. Watch this space. N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Mar 5 19:09:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07493 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:09:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu (root@mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07485 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:09:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aschool@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) Received: from extasis.sb.ux (ts26-16.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.114.55]) by mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA27728 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:09:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34FF68CA.41C67EA6@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:08:58 -0500 From: Albert School X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Obscure contribution Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I am interested in contributing to the FreeBSD documentaion regarding UUCP configuration as well as some perl code to help configure a site for UUCP networking. I am using UUCP to experiment with wireless serial links at 1200baud over 2 meter amateur radio frequencies. I was using linux, then I found FreeBSD...sorry Linus. Hello Chuck! -) Albert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Fri Mar 6 00:44:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15909 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:44:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15865 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:44:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA13737; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:12:30 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA07665; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:12:30 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980306191229.06394@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:12:29 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Jeremy Lea , doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304131036.44077@shale.csir.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980304131036.44077@shale.csir.co.za>; from Jeremy Lea on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:10:36PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 13:10:36 +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: > Hi... > > This is going to sound really nasty, but it's not meant that way... Go for it. > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> 2. The ASCII (latin1) version of the handbook doesn't contain any >> high-bit-set characters. The only unusual character it contains >> is a ^H (backspace), which even on DOS impact printers will create >> a bolder impression. In UNIX, you can (and I do) remove it with >> sed 's:.^H::g'. I suppose it would make sense to include a >> stripped version on the next CD-ROM, like I'm planning to put an >> ASCII version of "The Complete FreeBSD". > > The thing is that maybe 80% of newbies are starting from a Win95 > environment... They dont have a clue what sed is and they dont have impact > printers. They want documents that are easy to print using the stuff that > comes with Win95. If the install docs dont work then the OS is obviously a > load of junk... I think you misunderstand me. Obviously the work with sed has to be done before making the CD. >> 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I >> have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but >> people should at least be made aware of the possibility. > > I once tried to install TeX on DOS, found I needed some other arcane Unix > utility, found I had to compile it from source, found it wouldn't work in > Borland C, needed DJGPP and so on, until I ran out of disk space. I gave up. > Telling people to install groff to read your docs is only going to chase > them away. TeX is a can of worms. It used to drive me to distraction. Again, though, I'm not suggesting that anybody install it on DOS. You've got me somewhat out of context here. >> 5. I think HTML stinks as a documentation format. It's barely >> acceptable as a web format, and the attempts I've made to use it >> for Real Documents have been painful. Compare >> http://www.lemis.com/errata-2.html and >> ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/cfbsd/errata-2.ps, both of which >> ostensibly are the same document. About the only advantage it has >> is that just about everybody has a reader. > > Your opinion doesn't count. Yes it does! > Only that of a clueless newbie, armed with Win95 and a problem. The > documentation, especially the stuff needed to explain the install, > must be visible and easy to get, [print], and read. The choices are > HTML, PDF and RTF. All can be generated from the current SGML. We > need to make all of these available. With the latin1, ascii and ps > versions. No problems there. My problem is that there has to be something better than the current html, which, as other people have observed, is difficult to handle. While writing my book, I spent a lot of time reading the handbook, initially the HTML version. It wasn't until I went to reading the ASCII version that I discovered a whole lot of stuff that I hadn't found in the HTML. This is more a problem of the handbook than the medium, but the medium encourages it: excellent random access and appalling sequential access. I'd suggest that we try to reduce the number of pages and increase their size (and still keep the links, of course). One page per chapter sounds reasonable. > I started using FreeBSD out of frustration with Win95 and people > always telling me to buy stuff (like Word, like Borland C). I saw a > powerful, free operating system, with a ton of other free software, > and dived in. I printed the INSTALL.TXT file, read it, was > lost... read most of the handbook... still didn't tell me the > basics. I didn't have the man pages to read yet... It took me a > week of evenings before I was even willing to boot the install disk. I see the problem. > The thing which I really dont like about the Unix world is that it > sucks you in... This package depends on that package, which is > really doing the same job as another package, which you need for > something else... you can't ever talk of a minimum install. Sounds like your description of Win95 in the previous paragraph. > Anyhow, enough whining, I guess my real point (and you should know > this better than anyone else ;) is that the docs are not written for > the authors, but for the users, especially the clueless ones. Sure. I think you've misunderstood my comments. I'm trying to make it easier for the newbie, too. But I don't want to make it more difficult for other people, and we should understand that even newbies have difficulty with HTML. Just because it's familiar doesn't mean that they can use it effectively. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Fri Mar 6 08:18:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12859 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hal.mcclellan.af.mil (hal.mcclellan.af.mil [137.243.253.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12851 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:18:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from CANADY.DARREN@email.mcclellan.af.mil) Received: from conversion.HERA.MCCLELLAN.AF.MIL by HERA.MCCLELLAN.AF.MIL (PMDF V5.1-10 #29043) id <01IUC8BXAHEO9ANUQE@HERA.MCCLELLAN.AF.MIL> for freebsd-doc@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:21:45 PDT Received: from nacona.mcclellan.af.mil (smwins01.mcclellan.af.mil) by HERA.MCCLELLAN.AF.MIL (PMDF V5.1-10 #24472) with ESMTP id <01IUC8BTIX0C91WQJW@HERA.MCCLELLAN.AF.MIL> for freebsd-doc@freebsd.org; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 08:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nacona.mcclellan.af.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 08:18:01 -0800 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 08:17:59 -0800 From: "Canady, Darren TSG" Subject: The Complete FreeBSD/Running FreeBSD To: "'freebsd-doc@freebsd.org'" Cc: "'Uncle James'" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_DBx7nUe1OnnL5yoVJNifyw)" Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Boundary_(ID_DBx7nUe1OnnL5yoVJNifyw) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN I'm interested in becoming an ISP and have subscribed to receive your FreeBSD Newsletter. How do I go about getting a copy of the Walnut Creek subject publications and accompanying CDs? Darren E. Canady --Boundary_(ID_DBx7nUe1OnnL5yoVJNifyw)-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Sat Mar 7 06:37:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12409 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:37:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA12382 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:37:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous228.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.228]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04062; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:30:58 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA00515; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:19:37 +0100 (MET) To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: stuart henderson Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 07 Mar 1998 15:19:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:20:52 +1030 Message-ID: Lines: 16 Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > 2. The ASCII (latin1) version of the handbook doesn't contain any > high-bit-set characters. Wrong. handbook.latin1 contain 8 bit characters, e.g., `Søren'. > The only unusual character it contains > is a ^H (backspace), which even on DOS impact printers will create > a bolder impression. In UNIX, you can (and I do) remove it with > sed 's:.^H::g'. better: $ col -b < handbook.latin1 > /tmp/handbook.latin1.stripped -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Sat Mar 7 15:24:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26791 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp1680.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6532.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26779 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:24:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1680.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA00688; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:21:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp1680.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:21:48 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Albert School cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Obscure contribution In-Reply-To: <34FF68CA.41C67EA6@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Sorry if no one replied within a reasonable amount of time --- this does not reflect lack of interest on our part, but rather lack of leadership] On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Albert School wrote: > I am interested in contributing to the FreeBSD documentaion > regarding UUCP configuration as well as some perl code to help > configure a site for UUCP networking. I am using UUCP to > experiment with wireless serial links at 1200baud over 2 meter > amateur radio frequencies. This would be great! Our preferred format for documentation is DocBook. You can find more information on DocBook at http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber/docbook/ It is not necessary to write documentation in DocBook, however (although it is preferred :). If you happen to have some familiarity with LinuxDoc, that is good, too. It is also Ok to submit it as plain text and we will transform it into DocBook (with the caveat that I have yet to see someone stand-up and say that they personally will do this work). You can write the documentation as a stand-alone tutorial or as an additional section of the handbook. Either way, we will be gald to host it on www.FreeBSD.ORG. Once the documentation is ready, upload it to incoming/ and notify us about it with send-pr (see the handbook "Contributing" for details on doing this). -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-doc Sat Mar 7 16:15:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02900 for freebsd-doc-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:15:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from infowest.com (infowest.com [204.17.177.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02878 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:15:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sbown@infowest.com) Received: from stanbown (dialup2-44.infowest.net [207.49.61.119]) by infowest.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA22289 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:15:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980307172044.00695e8c@infowest.com> X-Sender: sbown@infowest.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 17:20:44 -0800 To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG From: stan Subject: motherboard needed, can you please help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org March 6, 1998 Ladies & Gentlemen: Please direct my inquiry to the right person: It has been very difficult adjusting to living and not allowing my disabilities to block my progress. (I am a disabled veteran, from the Desert Storm era). During the last 18 months, I have written many companies such as yours, seeking someone to help me obtain an updated computer. One that could use while attending college at home. Several of my school counselors said if I had a computer at home similar to what the school uses, I could work at my own speed and pace. I would more likely be able to retain what was taught in class, as well as learn how to use and incorporate programs into a business environment. I am learning about using computers in to days businesses. The school has a lab that I use, but sometimes my disabilities can't handle the pressures there. I realize it is difficult for companies to give things away when there's no profit in it. And asking for a whole computer system is even more difficult. So instead my inquiry was for parts to build a system. I was able to get almost all the parts I needed....Yesterday, I finally got a K6 CPU, but the promised Pentium motherboard never came. (still will need a video card too) I have a friend that will help me install the parts and get them working. Many other veterans I know don't ask once they have been turned down, but as one counselor said, I don't have much more to loose by asking. I would hope that someone will reply, even if you cannot help. I can send you a copy of a statement from Veteran Affairs verifying my disabilities if needed. Sincerely, Stan Bown E-mail:sbown@infowest.com PS: I'm still hoping to have a PC ready for finals To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message